Tag: Dennis

East Kent – Dennis Lancet UF – HJG 18


Copyright Roger Cox

East Kent Road Car Co Ltd
1954
Dennis Lancet UF
Duple C41C

This picture of East Kent HJG 18, a Dennis Lancet UF with Duple C41C body, was taken in Rye in 1967. East Kent, like fellow BET operator Aldershot & District, was a great fan of the pre war and post war vertical engined Dennis Lancet, and, in 1954, took delivery of 30 of the underfloor engined Lancet UF. This was the largest single order for this model, of which only 71 examples were built between 1953 and 1961. Aldershot and District tried out the Strachan bodied Lancet UF demonstrator, but bought none, though it continued to run the unique Dennis Dominant for fifteen years. One can now only speculate as to the reasons for the commercial non acceptance of the Lancet UF. Certainly reliability could not have been a problem. East Kent kept their UFs for 14 to 17 years. The low driving position was received with suspicion in certain quarters back in 1953, yet now it is a standard feature on touring coaches. The power plant was a horizontal version of the advanced, smooth running 24 valve 7.58 litre O6 engine fitted in the Lancet III, though the maximum engine speed was raised to 2000 rpm to give 110 bhp. Some later examples for Glenton Tours had the 120 bhp 8 litre version of this engine. The gearbox was the standard Dennis five speed constant mesh unit with preselective overdrive, but revised to operate in the conventional sequence with lowest gears to the left and highest to the right – the vertical engined Lancet gearbox worked the “wrong way round” from right to left. Possibly a major factor in the low uptake of the Lancet UF was the employment of a fully hydraulic braking system, which has never been popular with engineers outside of London Transport and Midland Red. Hydraulic fluid is costly, whereas air for air pressure or vacuum brakes is free. It is noteworthy that the initial version of the AEC Reliance that came to reign supreme with both East Kent and Aldershot & District had a straightforward, direct top (not overdrive) five speed synchromesh gearbox and vacuum brakes, though their wet liner engines were certainly not trouble free.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

03/07/11 – 19:59

I’m ambivalent about Dennis. I don’t have much time for modern Dennis Dust-carts – although there are some great might have beens that never followed through their promise with reliable service (especially the Falcon V and R Series). The R Series is actually one of the best coaches I’ve ever driven – including Setras, ZF Reliances and REs.
Having said that, the Loline (albeit a Lodekka clone) was a superb bus. East Kent and A & D weren’t the only operators to take to Dennis Lancets in a big way – so did Tracky – and Glenton gave theirs a full service life. None of these would have willingly run rubbish.
Dennis always seem, even with their current dominance, to fall short of the quality of the late lamented AEC, Bristol and Leyland.

David Oldfield

06/07/11 – 07:24

The Dennis UF was tried on A&D as you say and it was used on a number of routes however it was not “hitting the spot” with A&D who were already looking at AEC Reliance and being lighter and more cost effective. The UF was a much heavier vehicle. As we see from history, they went the AEC route in the end. There was also a problem with the UF overheating on hilly routes.
Hope this adds a bit of an update for you.

Doug Sneddon

06/07/11 – 13:50

The Lancet UF was a bit heavier than the early vacuum braked AEC Reliance, but not by much. The chassis weight of the Dennis was 3ton 17cwt, against 3ton 14cwt for the AEC. I hadn’t before heard of overheating problems with the Lancet, but the type was pretty rare and information about its performance in service is similarly scarce. I suspect, also, that operators were suspicious of the low driving position, especially for bus work, and also put off by the full hydraulic braking system and the double reduction rear axle. The AEC, with its single reduction rear axle, vacuum brakes and direct top synchromesh gearbox would have suggested a simpler vehicle to maintain, as well as being easier to drive. I am not a great AEC fan (the Regent V with conventional transmission was a somewhat primitive and noisy vehicle to drive, and not a patch on the Regent III), but the AEC five speed gearbox in the Reliance was a delight to use. The AEC wet liner engines were certainly not trouble free, though.

Roger Cox

08/07/11 – 06:16

I have to amend my comment under the picture at the top of this entry. The Dennis five speed gearbox, as Ian Thompson has correctly pointed out elsewhere, was a sliding pinion (i.e.”crash”) gearbox, not a constant mesh unit. With the engine and gearbox remote from the driver, smooth gear changing would not have been easy to accomplish, and the Reliance would have scored over the Dennis on this point also.

Roger Cox

09/07/11 – 07:07

With East Kent they were always referred to as ‘Spaceships’ for fairly obvious reasons. I must be one of the few who has conducted on one – an urgent relief to a Dover-Ramsgate journey with nothing else available (1966, I think). It caused a bit of confusion but was welcomed by passengers left behind by the service car, especially as it had started raining.

Lew Finnis

10/07/11 – 07:39

I cannot claim a great pedigree of Lancet UF driving (but so rare; who can?) However the one I have driven was a “Chinese” gearbox with low gears on the right hand side of the gate. I wonder if the reference to a normalised change is confused with the optional Meadows gearbox, particularly found in some of the later Glenton fleet. To continue and hopefully elaborate on the gearbox. It is very true to say the large and heavy box was very old fashioned compared with the AEC 5 speed. Yes, the lower gears were sliding mesh (4th of course being direct so strictly speaking no gears involved). But 5th was constant mesh engaged by preselected dog clutches – but here’s the thing, even though constant mesh, the gears were straight cut and therefore tended to be noisy (or according to taste, musical) even at cruising speed.

Nick Webster

10/07/11 – 07:41

An interesting experience, Lew, especially when trying to get the fares from the passengers sitting in the front nearside seats low down beside the driver. What was the opinion among the East Kent driving staff of these Lancet UF “Spaceships”? The East Kent fleet of 30 was the largest order ever placed for the type.

Roger Cox

11/07/11 – 07:41

Thanks for your comments, Nick, which give us a valuable insight into the characteristics of the Lancet UF. The vertical engined Lancet and the Lance double deckers certainly had “right to left” upward selection of the gears – why on earth did Dennis persevere with this arrangement so long after the rest of the industry, including Guy (GS type excepted), had standardised on “left to right”? – but my understanding that the Lancet UF gearbox worked in the logical pattern comes from the “Modern Transport” magazine road test of the type in March 1954, which refers to the selection of overdrive being accomplished “by moving the main gear lever from the direct drive position to the right against a spring and then forward”. I certainly wasn’t aware that the later Glenton coaches, presumably the 8 litre version, had Meadows gearboxes. I recall from somewhere that the Meadows gearbox had a “Chinese” gear selection layout as well. Whilst on that subject, David Brown gearboxes also had strange selector layouts, as anyone who has driven a Bristol SC4LK will know.The Clark/Turner gearbox in the Bedford VAL was another strange creature. No doubt there were others.
Dennis appeared to lose its way somewhat in the immediate post war period. The Lancet III was a quite successful type, and the lighter goods vehicles also sold well until undercut and overtaken by the cheaper lightweights from Bedford and Ford. In part, the firm suffered from the sudden loss of both of the Dennis brothers within three months in 1938 – Raymond Dennis was only 59 years of age, and John was 67 – and the post war heavy lorry business was dominated by British Road Services which placed the bulk of its orders with Leyland, AEC and Bristol. The advanced O6 engine soon proved to be too small at 7.58 litres, and later 8 litres, for the heavier demands of the late 1940s onwards. Had the firm upgraded the earlier O4 from four to six cylinders it would have had a 9.8 litre engine of some 125 bhp to take on AEC and Leyland. Instead, Dennis developed six cylinder engines of 5.0 and 5.5 litre sizes, that must have barely recovered their development costs as the mass producers increasingly captured the lighter end of the market. The survival and success of Dennis today, albeit in a decidedly different guise, is one of the surprises of our time.

Roger Cox

11/07/11 – 10:35

Although various Gardner, Leyland and Rolls Royce power plants were used, British Road Services was BTC and therefore was a (new) BRISTOL operator. [The only period when Bristol was a serious HGV manufacturer.] It is true that they operated other makes, including AEC, but for the most part these were vehicles taken over from the small independents who were nationalised. Those of you who have read the excellent Barber/Davies Wallace Arnold books will know that the associated Barr Haulage business was nationalised and became part of BRS.

David Oldfield

12/07/11 – 05:44

Strange gearboxes I have known.
I once had a ride on one of Brown’s (Donington Wood) Sentinels. The driver said it had a Meadows box. The arrangement was not only switched right-to-left but also top to bottom. This probably meant that the gearbox was of standard layout internally but there was an extra fulcrum in the linkage. This was after all one of the very first underfloor-engined vehicles.
F & H Dean of Newton Heath was a subsidiary of Maynes (Manchester) and ran a fleet of Bedford coaches. As a teenager I travelled on two of the SBs, one with a Bedford 4-speed box and one with the weird Clark/Turner 5-speed unit mentioned by Roger. But both were switched round right-to-left, with the low gears on the right and the high on the left.
Finally I was involved in the failed attempt to preserve a Foden PVD6 of Garelochhead Coaches. When we went to collect it we found it had an unmistakeable Foden gearbox – i.e. with super-low and super-reverse – but again switched around right to left. We wrote to Foden, who said they had never built a gearbox like that and it must have been rebuilt by the operator. We wrote to the operator, who said it had been like that from new.
All sorts of stuff goes on that nobody knows about!

Peter Williamson

13/07/11 – 07:24

Early utility Guys delivered to London Transport (and no doubt other operators), had the left and right gates reversed. Guy later changed the gate to the conventional one. To avoid driver confusion, LPTB cut a couple of inches off the top of the (I think) non-conventional gear levers. It seemed to work, although you’d soon learn that pulling away in third was silly!

Off-topic I know, but it’s good that mention’s been made that Bristol built HGV’s for British Road Services. Here is an excellent example of their product: at this link

Chris Hebbron

18/07/11 – 11:42

Most interesting to read Nick Webster and Roger Cox’s comments on Dennis Lancet UF gearbox variants. I certainly had no idea of the option of a Meadows box, which was perhaps chosen as being more manageable for new drivers than Dennis’s own excellent but unusual product. I’ve got a “Driver’s Handbook for Lancet U/F Diesel” publication 320c (surely they never offered a petrol version?!) which illustrates the gate with Reverse to the right and back and with Overdrive to the left and forward—exactly as on the halfcab Lancets. But the table of ratios shows 3rd as 1.55:1, whereas in the postwar Lance and most?/all? postwar Lancet half cabs 3rd was 1.66:1. I’ve also got a note, copied from a prewar magazine, that the 1936 O4-engined Lancet could be had with either of the following ratios:
0.69:1, 1.00:1, 1.55:1, 2.74:1, 4.54:1 and R 5.84:1.
0.69:1, 1.00:1, 1.55:1, 2.94:1, 5.18:1 and R 6.66:1.
That second option gives a good wide spread, but the ratio gap between 3rd and 2nd looks a bit daunting!
All this choice seems to fall in line with Dennis’s willingness to give customers what they wanted—not that such generosity always did the company all the good it should have done!
Was the choice of a double-reduction rear axle for the U/F partly aimed at providing as low and uncluttered a floor as possible? The bevel crown-wheel/pinion ratio is less than 1.5:1, with a further reduction of over 4:1 in the hub. This way the diff housing is much smaller than with the usual CW/P ratio of about 5:1. The drawing does not show the housing as being offset to one side. Again, a bewildering variety of alternative overall ratios is given.
Stuck onto page FRA1 of the “Lancet U/F Instruction Book” publication 373c is a note saying:
“The axle described in this section is the F.101-2 fire engine type used with the all indirect drive gearbox. If a conventional gearbox is fitted to a chassis such as the Lancet U.F. then the spiral bevel wheel is mounted on the other side of the differential unit case so that the difference in input shaft rotation is accommodated. In other respects the axles are the same.”
Visions of a bus with 5 reverse gears and only a crawler for forward motion…

Ian Thompson

18/07/11 – 22:59

Ian, that second gearbox option on the O4 Lancet would have given it Alpine hill climbing ability, albeit in reverse.
I have to admit a soft spot for Dennis (had anyone noticed?). It was always a relatively small firm, but its engineering was of a very high order. The Lancet III with its advanced 24 valve engine proved to be an outstandingly reliable power plant, and numerous small, and some not so small, coach companies held this model in high esteem. According to the book “Dennis-100 Years of Innovation” by Stewart J. Brown, Dennis’s best year for sales before the Hestair takeover was in 1949 when it sold 1096 buses and lorries, and it is probable that the Lancet III formed a major part of that total. It was sad that the UF version didn’t win the same level of support, and the company could surely have amended the specification to accord with the clearly emerging engineering preferences of the bus industry. The pointer was the outstanding success of the AEC Reliance, and one can only wonder why Dennis did not try to emulate as many features as possible of that top selling model. By 1958, Dennis had a new five speed constant mesh gearbox in the Loline, which also had air brakes. Why wasn’t the Lancet UF re-engineered to accept these features? Similarly. a single reduction rear axle option and a revised chassis front end without the “drop” could surely have been offered at modest cost. Instead, Dennis pursued several lines of development that ultimately led nowhere, the Jaguar engined low floor front wheel drive ambulance being the extreme example. One should be grateful that the company is still with us, though it is now a very different creature from the Dennis of fond memory.

Roger Cox

19/07/11 – 06:56

After about 1950 the market for new buses and coaches contracted suddenly, making it impossible for all of the manufacturers who had been successful during the shortages of the early postwar years to continue to thrive in the same way. There just wasn’t room for them all in the marketplace. The major market for the Lancet UF would have been the BET operators, who would have been instructed not to buy it. Little point in investing in further development of a product which could only be sold to independents.
Therefore I don’t believe the apparent decline of Dennis in the PSV market in the 1950s should be seen as a failure. Dennis were doing what they wanted to do, and what they did best, which was niche marketing. For years they didn’t waste any effort on the PSV market unless there was a niche to fill. Even the Dart would have been seen as a niche product when it was launched, but changes in the marketplace turned it, and Dennis, into something else.

Peter Williamson

23/07/11 – 08:38

Dennis had several BET company customers for the J3/J10 Lancet in the early post war period, and East Kent did initially buy the UF version. Aldershot and District, North Western and City of Oxford all bought the Loline, so that, whilst it is true that the BET group were AEC/Leyland orientated, there is no evidence that Dennis could not have sold a re-engineered Lancet UF to companies that wanted it. Before the advent of the Fleetline, Daimler was almost exclusively a supplier to municipal fleets, but the Fleetline soon found a place in the BET order books. Dennis’s emergence in niche marketing didn’t really happen until the Hestair takeover and the abandonment by the company of hgv production (dustcarts excepted). Much of this was a means of testing the psv market to find a new place for the company in a market then dominated almost exclusively by Leyland, whose arrogant “take or leave it” attitude under Donald Stokes generated a groundswell of resentment in the bus operating industry (including NBC!). With the development of the Javelin and the Dart, Dennis found mass markets, and the small production runs of almost bespoke models ceased.

Roger Cox

25/07/11 – 08:57

Sorry, what I meant by niche marketing (which may not be quite the right term) was not small-volume as opposed to large, but addressing a gap in the market as opposed to competing head-on with similar products.

Peter Williamson

26/07/11 – 07:33

Regarding the BET Group, something I’ve just remembered, and which I’m sure Dennis would have been well aware of, is that Atkinson developed the Alpha single-decker at the specific request of North Western, who were then ordered to buy Leylands instead. The NWRC Chief Engineer, who had overseen the development, resigned as a result. I don’t think this BET policy was due to engineering preference so much as the availability of bulk discounts for group purchases.

Peter Williamson

04/08/11 – 21:35

As far as I can recall, the drivers had no great gripes about them, other than the low driving position. From what I remember, they had a good turn of speed. They certainly soldiered on for a long time on the Port shuttles for Sealink and Seaspeed foot passengers after they had been taken out of front-line service.

Lew Finnis

28/10/11 – 14:12

My uncle worked as a driver at East Kent’s Herne Bay garage in the 1940’s – 1950’s, driving Leyland Tigers (TS8) and he said that he was not fond of the Lancet UF’s due mostly to the gearbox, and it’s remote location. He reckoned there was only one driver at Herne Bay that could actually drive them properly on tours work. He was also quite scathing about the Morris Commercial Imperial deckers based at Herne Bay – but that’s another story.

Mike

17/12/11 – 16:33

I was looking at your web site re bus tickets and buses as I am writing a small piece for our village news round. As a boy I remember a coach similar to to the one described above. It had a double seat adjacent to the driver at the front and the door was situated along the side in the middle. I remember the reg as being HAY 111 and was owned I believe by Birchers or Ridgeway and Windridge and operated under the name of Victory Coaches in Ibstock Leicestershire approx late 50s any use or can you confirm anything. I do remember other firms in the area described in the web site Brown Blue and Gibsons, others in our area were Rudins, Blockleys

Peter Stirland

18/12/11 – 07:33

HAY 111 was an AEC Regal IV which had Gurney Nutting C41C bodywork. It was new in 1951 to Windridge, Sons & Riley t/a Victory of Ibstock. When they sold out to Browns Blue in 1958, this vehicle was included in the sale and served with BB until the end of their operations in 1963. As Midland Red didn’t keep any of the vehicles, it passed to Yuille of West Hartlepool but I’m afraid I know nothing of Yuille.

Chris Barker

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

10/09/12 – 07:15

Mention has been made about the turn of speed attributed to the East Kent Dennis Lancet UF. Based on examination of what is believed to be the last remaining example (just about!) I can reveal that this one at least is fitted with a higher ratio back axle than standard and the later and larger 8 litre engine. The axle appears original and the engine has tags indicating that it was fitted by East Kent, rather than some subsequent owner.

Nick Webster

11/09/12 – 07:27

HJG 29_lr

Here is another of these fine East Kent Lancet UFs. HJG 29 is seen pictured in Canterbury Bus Station in 1961. Another vehicle of this class is parked behind it. This handsome 1954 style of Duple body compares very favourably with the bulbous abomination fitted to 1961 Black and White Reliance 8222 AD. It was somewhere about 1960 that Duple began to lose its way in my opinion.

Roger Cox

Safeway Coaches – Dennis Lancet – ASV 900

Safeway Coaches - Dennis Lancet - ASV 900


Copyright all shots Ken Jones

Safeway Coaches
1949
Dennis Lancet III
Reading C33F

It’s not often that you find a vehicle built in 1949 which until recently has had only one owner. This Dennis Lancet 33 seat coach was acquired new by Safeway Services of South Petherton in Somerset, which was owned and operated by the Gunn family. It was re-registered in 1985 to ASV 900 its previous registration was ETP 184 why it was re-registered I know not. I also shot this interesting sign from inside the coach.
In the early part of this year Stephen Morris of Quantock Motors purchased this vehicle from Vernon Gunn. He brought it to the West Midlands to attend a bus rally and not only was I lucky to photograph it, but also to be its only passenger to the rally. The vehicle has since returned to its base in Somerset.
I recommend the information about the company given on this very good website www.countrybus.co.uk

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

19/09/12 – 07:19

Ken’s comments in respect of this magnificent vehicle raise another point. Never mind why the registration change, but why would a Somerset operator buy new a coach registered in Portsmouth? Could it be that the body builder registered it on the owners’ behalf? In those days it would have been remarkably unusual!

Pete Davies

19/09/12 – 07:20

This Reading (of Portsmouth) – bodied coach – hence the original Portsmouth registration was new to Safeway Services of South Petherton, the domain of the legendary Veronica Gunn. Following withdrawal in 1969 the coach, by then re-registered ASV 900 (did this stand for A Safeway Vehicle?), was retained in preservation by the company, and it is said that Miss Gunn even used it to go to Buckingham Palace to collect her MBE in 1987!

Philip Lamb

20/09/12 – 07:15

Found this reprinted article from 1947 at www.dennissociety.org.uk

Ken Jones

20/09/12 – 07:16

We should be grateful that this coach has survived and within a caring environment, too. It really is in superb condition and a tribute to the coachbuilder, of Portsmouth. Coaches of this era were really the swansong of ‘tween war art deco design. This coach oozes it in spadesfull.
For such a small coachbuilder as Reading & Co., we now have three examples of their craft on the website; The wartime austerity-bodied Provincial AEC Regal/Regent, this one and the 1964 Guernsey Nimbus. The firm lasted longer than I thought, showing that it was not just used for distress purchases. Does anyone have/know of, a history of Readings? I’d love to know more. Incidentally, coachbuilder Portsmouth Aviation was only just down the road from Readings.

Chris Hebbron

20/09/12 – 07:17

Quite a number of Reading-bodied coaches were registered in Portsmouth prior to delivery. The same was true of Wadhams at Waterlooville. Many were supplied through Sparshatts, a local agent which acted for a number of chassis manufacturers including Dennis. Sparshatts probably arranged for the vehicles to be bodied as well – a complete service for the small operator!

Philip Lamb

21/09/12 – 07:04

Picture of Portsmouth Aviation bodied half cab can be seen on this site under galleries / BVBG / The Bristols. Here is a quick link to view. 

Ken Jones

21/09/12 – 07:06

A History of Readings entitled ‘First and Last’ was published by the Provincial Society in 2009. See www.provincialsociety.org/shop.htm

Philip Lamb, Ken Jones, Andrew Goodwin & Pat Jennings

22/09/12 – 06:40

ASV 900_lr_2

Further to the posting of ASV 900, here is a view of the offside, taken at the Southsea rally in June 1990.

Pete Davies

22/09/12 – 06:42

Thx, folks, for the Reading history information.

Chris Hebbron

04/02/13 – 10:54

This lovely old coach is now owned by Quantock Coaches in Taunton. My step dad Vernon Gunn, nephew to Veronica Gunn MBE retired and did not want to just park the vehicle up. It is now still in its colours with Quantock.

Andy Blackwell

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

04/02/14 – 16:51

I know this site deals with old buses but I think what I am saying is relevant. On one of my infrequent visits to Salisbury today I saw 2 new double deckers. Only by looking carefully could I tell that it was a Dennis Enviro 400. Why are manufacturers seeking anonymity? Look at the radiator on the Lancet above, no doubt who made that. The Park and Ride Dennis single deckers are the same although Dennis are proud of their dustcarts- they put their name on them.
The Government seem to be realising that we need to make things in this country rather than selling each other dodgy financial products.
Come on manufacturers-be proud. Put your name on what you make. You might even consider a Union Jack (sorry- Flag)

Paragon

05/02/14 – 06:12

Paragon, I agree with you absolutely but some operators have been known to remove name badges from vehicles. I remember when Trent in Derby began taking Bristol VR’s, the Chief Engineer at the time ordered the Bristol badges to be removed from the engine covers under the premise ‘I don’t see why we should advertise Bristol products’ Now whatever your views on the Bristol VR may be, I always thought it was a barmy notion!

Chris Barker

05/02/14 – 06:14

In the caption it is stated that the above vehicle was re-registered from ETP 184 to ASV 900 in 1985. This I find perfectly plausible, and I suggest that the subsequent information that the registration ASV 900 was applied by 1969 is not correct.
I am inclined to suppose that the reason for the re-registration is as follows. When paper registration documents (V5) were introduced, any vehicle remaining untaxed for a certain period automatically lost its registration unless it was claimed within a particular time limit. If not claimed, the vehicle had to receive a new registration when it came to be retaxed. I think there has since been some yielding on this point, and that it is now possible for a vehicle’s original registration to be reclaimed. ‘ASV’ is one of many marks used by DVLA (from the early 1980s) to issue to users who wished to have a ‘timeless’ (i.e. non-prefix/suffix) registration and who were prepared to pay for the privilege, or to issue to vehicles which needed to be re-registered for any other reason. (Vehicles dating from 1963 onwards may still have normally received a suffix/prefix registration, I’m not sure now).
Kinross-shire County Council (the original issuer of ‘SV’ registrations) was one of several Scottish authorities which did not get so far as issuing three-letter registrations, therefore in the normal course of events ‘ASV’ was not issued. The registration ‘ASV 900’ may or may not have been especially requested.
There is also the possibility that the registration ETP 184 was intentionally transferred to another vehicle, although I think this unlikely.

David Call

05/02/14 – 17:36

ASV marks, according to ‘A History of Motor Vehicle Registration in the UK’ by L. H. Newell (Newby Books, 1999) were issued post-1983, The vehicle in question was taken off the road in 1969, and probably not used again until 1987 when it was refurbished and repainted to convey Miss Gunn to the Palace. So 1985-1987 is I agree the most likely date of re-registration. Can’t say for certain, but It is unlikely ETP 184 was ever transferred. During the course of the last year, the coach was acquired by Go Goodwins of Eccles, and has subsequently been sold on again.

Philip Lamb

Feather Brothers – Dennis Lancet – DAK 684

Feather Brothers - Dennis Lancet - DAK 684

Feather Brothers (Bradford)
1939
Dennis Lancet 2
Plaxton C37F

I took this photograph in 1960 with a rather primitive optical instrument called the Bencini Comet S. It shows a Dennis Lancet 2 of 1939 with a Plaxton C37F body, seeing out its final days employed on contractor work based in a yard beside the main London- Brighton railway line on the southern edge of Coulsdon (south of Croydon). The site is unrecognisable today. This coach began life with Feather Brothers, Bradford (later part of the Wallace Arnold empire) in May 1939, a less than auspicious moment to embark upon a coaching career, and its wartime experiences are unclear. Somewhat later, it entered the fleet of A. Farrow and Sons, Melton Mowbray where it stayed from January 1951 to January 1956, before passing on to Coronation of Stapleford.
The interesting story of Farrow, together with a fleet list, may be found here:- www.farrows-coaches.co.uk
By 1960 this coach had been ignominiously demoted as seen above. The Lancet 2 was offered with two alternative bonnet lengths, the longer one to accommodate the Gardner 5LW, and a much shorter one for the Dennis “Big Four” 97 bhp petrol engine of 6.786 litres, or the 85 bhp O4 diesel of 6.5 litres. The four cylinder Dennis engines were very compact, and the short bonnet allowed the bulkhead to be moved forward so that the greater internal saloon length could accommodate an extra row of seats. Setting aside the Maudslay SF40, which, in theory, could seat up to 40 passengers, though a lower figure was more usual, the short bonnet Lancet probably offered the greatest capacity – up to 39 seats – on a conventional chassis in the late 1930s. One does wonder, however, if the cab was a bit constricted, though the bodywork could be extended to the extreme front, flush with the radiator, as on this Plaxton C37F example, which is clearly built on a short bonnet chassis. The bulkhead has no autovac which was more usual than a lift pump for the fuel delivery to the engine on vehicles of that period. I cannot establish from the photograph whether this coach has a petrol or a diesel engine, though, to be still in use during the 1960s, the O4 diesel option would be very much more likely. If only this splendid machine were still around today.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

10/10/13 – 08:10

Your “optical device” can’t, surely, have been more primitive than my first such instrument, bought for 2s6d in Woolworth’s in 1962. If the camera and viewfinder (such as it was) were pointing the same way, an approximation of the target might appear on the film, but it was usually very blurred. More often than not, it captured something off to one side or the other.

Pete Davies

10/10/13 – 15:30

Most interesting are the metal surrounds for the destination glasses – a shape which was still in use by Plaxtons well after WW2.

Chris Youhill

11/10/13 – 06:59

I had a Bencini, a triumph of appearance over performance, the reasonable quality lens being the best part.
As for the coach, the nearside bodywork being carried halfway over the wing is something I’d not seen before – did Plaxton stop this after the war? Sad it never survived.

Chris Hebbron

11/10/13 – 06:59

Very interesting to see an example of pre-war Plaxton bodywork although this is perhaps not a very flattering angle (no disrespect to Roger) but you could see the makings of an attractive design emerging. Another point of interest is the radiator, I wasn’t aware that Dennis had introduced this style before WW2. You tend to think of pre-war Dennis coaches having the massive radiator with the bar across the front.

Chris Barker

11/10/13 – 08:29

North Western took six Dennis Aces in 1934 with a very neat radiator which was a definitive forerunner of a change to the shape depicted in Roger’s photo.. NW’s 1936 delivery of Lancet IIs had exactly the same radiator as DAK 684.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/10/13 – 08:29

I wonder if the “enclosed pocket” caused by the extension of the bodywork over the front mudguard might have caused a bit of resistance to the flow of wind, therefore affecting the pulling power of the coach ??

Chris Youhill

11/10/13 – 14:16

As Phil indicates, the Lancet II with the slimmer radiator, slightly offset towards the nearside, was introduced at the 1935 Motor Show, where a Dennis bodied coach for a Staffordshire operator, A T Hardwick, was exhibited. I agree with Chris Y about the probable aerodynamic consequences of the extended panel work alongside the bonnet, yet this feature appeared on the products of several coachbuilders of the time.
DAK 684 was always parked within a fenced enclosure alongside the Brighton Road, and this was the best shot I could obtain. I did return several times for a better view, but then one day, sadly, the coach had gone forever.
I am digging out some of my old Comet S photos that, with modern digital software, are now a bit more useable (the Watton picture of an ECOC SC4LK is another with this camera). As Chris H suggests, the Comet looked the part, but its performance was much inferior to the old Brownie 127 that I used before. As a collector of old cameras, I have examples of both today.

Roger Cox

11/10/13 – 14:16

The extension over the front wing was quite common – especially on Plaxtons. It was also very often hinged to facilitate access to the engine.

David Oldfield

11/10/13 – 14:17

A quick trawl around the web would suggest that Dennis changed to the lighter style of rad grill during 1936. I’ve seen photos of Lancet I’s and II’s for this year.
Your right, Chris Y. The ‘pocket’ was hardly in the vogue for streamlining in the mid/late ‘thirties.

Chris Hebbron

11/10/13 – 14:18

What a delight to see this ex Feather Brothers Lancet!
I remember Feather Brothers so well, and their office at the bottom of Great Horton Road, and we used them frequently for day trips, so I could well have ridden on this vehicle. I am trying to remember just when they were absorbed by Wallace Arnold, but if my birth were to have been registered under motor vehicle legislation, then I also would have carried a “DAK” plate!

John Whitaker

11/10/13 – 14:49

1968 springs to mind for some reason John, but I don’t know why.

David Oldfield

11/10/13 – 16:10

Gentlemen, its amazing how time flies – Feather Brothers sold out to Wallace Arnold in March 1955 !! Fifteen vehicles were in the deal as follows:-
Dennis Lancet – 4, AEC Regal IV – 5, Bedford SB – 6.
I was at the Leeds depot of WA, and my first tour was in 1963 to the Isle of Wight from Bradford depot and the coach was 9196 NW in Feather Brothers livery from purchase new by WA. Talk about thrown in at the deep end with only a brief sheet, in the dreadful “Roneo” format of the time, of instructions for the whole week. This farcical document would have been hilarious if it hadn’t been so seriously deficient in timings and directions – I have it still and I shudder even now when I look at it from time to time. I recovered shortly after practically throwing the poor old clients and their baggage on to the last sailing of the day to the Island. The thought of narrowly avoiding, by seconds literally, having to find forty bed and breakfasts at 7.00pm is not something I’d recommend. Then I had to take the empty coach to Lymington (half an inch on the map and many complex miles around the Solent fjords)for cleaning and refuelling before finding B & B for myself and catching the ferry next day to Yarmouth and the Southern Vectis’s superb early model Lodekka right around the coast to Sandown. The vision of a management unable to organise a long convivial evening in an alcohol manufactory springs ever to mind !!

Chris Youhill

06/07/17 – 07:33

Sometime after the WA take over of Feathers, 2 of the Bedford SBs went to Hedley Howarth t/a Howarth Coaches Middlestown, direct or otherwise, they were Yeates Riveria bodies HAK 10 & 30, joining Bedford OB GWY 654 ex R Armitage of Long Lane Flockton, this OB has always been in my memory as GYG66 but not so from new information, successors to Howarth were G Ward Red Lion from Kirkburton then Trevor the importer of the ‘Swede’ recent photo of this from Huddersfield group on :bay, then Barry Todd. Due to the ‘time’ there do not appear to be any photos of Howarth due to the lack of cameras, if any do exist there is a crowd in front & not much bus. Looking for photos for a local history projec

Gem

07/07/17 – 07:41

Further to Chris Y’s information (11/10/13 – 16:10) about the coaches included in the WA takeover of Feather Brothers, a further Dennis Lancet was involved. KKW 999 was a Dennis Lancet UF exhibited at the 1954 Commercial Vehicle Show and was delivered to Feather Brothers, but was not licensed until WA took control. There’s a photo of it here visiting Wembley – https://flic.kr/p/eaxumu 

David Williamson

08/01/19 – 06:41

With regards to Coronation Coaches of Stapleford run by Kenneth Gerry Lee of Harston, who ceased trading in April 1962 when the company was taken over by Miller Bros.
Does any one have a fleet list of the vehicles owned by Coronation Coaches, they were known to also operate a Commer Commando BFB 79 and a Leyland Tiger PS1 with full front Burlingham body HTJ 270.

John Wakefield

East Kent – Dennis Lancet UF – HJG 3

East Kent - Dennis Lancet UF - HJG 3

East Kent Road Car Co Ltd
1954
Dennis Lancet UF
Duple C41C

This photo taken on Margate seafront in about 1966 shows HJG 3 numerically the first of a batch of 30 Dennis Lancet UF’s fitted with Duple Ambassador C41C bodies delivered to East Kent in 1954 these made up the largest fleet of Lancet UF’s in the country. Looking at this photo again recently I thought how the elegant simplicity of both the coachwork and the superb East Kent livery set one another off beautifully, on the Lancet the windscreens were set lower than on the contemporary Royal Tiger’s and Regal IV’s due to the Lancet’s lower driving position which also made the skylights above the screens more upright also the cab windows and the pillar behind the cab was a different shape.
I feel that the Lancet UF deserved more success than it achieved but obviously it did not appeal to those then all powerful figures the Fleet Engineers who didn’t like some aspects of the specification.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

31/10/13 – 07:31

Rather like Leyland in the dark, dark days of British Leyland you feel in your guts that you ought to, that you want to like/support Dennis. Many the reputable operator ran Lances, Lancet(tte)s and, of course, Lolines. Glenton ran the last “batch” of Lancet UFs with Plaxton Panorama bodywork – another class act. Often, specifications were good – just quirky and unproven (not necessarily bad and unreliable). Fodens had this problem. I’m no great lover of the Javelin – I prefer heavyweights – but it was a solid workhorse in the style of Bedford and Ford. I did, however, take a Dennis R420 to the South of France one summer. With its ZF AStronic gearbox (and a bit of imagination!) you could call it a cheap GB Setra. Being very much a Setra man, I can say that the R420 was one of the best/nicest coaches I have ever driven. It never took off because it didn’t have Volvo Assist to back it up if it broke down. [My experience of Volvo Assist is that it wasn’t missing much.] So I can support Roger to the hilt. The R series should have been a success, it wasn’t Dennis’s fault it wasn’t – and I’m sure the same was true of the Lancet UF.

David Oldfield

31/10/13 – 15:52

Newport Corporation ran some Lancet UFs but most were bodied as coaches, weren’t they?

Geoff Kerr

01/11/13 – 08:18

Newport Corporation took 12 Lancet UF in two batches. In his book “Dennis Buses in Camera” Robin Hannay says that the first 4 had bus bodies but makes no comment about the second batch although in the picture it appears that they have bus seating. All bodies were built by D J Davies a local coach operator and Dennis agent.

Paragon

01/11/13 – 08:20

I have always admired these East Kent Lancet UF coaches. East Kent took a total of thirty of these machines, the biggest single order that Dennis received for the Lancet UF. Registered HGF 2 to 32, they all had the stylish Duple Ambassador IV bodywork, the first six being C32C and the remainder C41C. The low driving position of the Lancet UF was incorporated very successfully into the design, and the result was a classic to my eye. East Kent were dedicated Dennis users in the pre and early post WW2 period, and my very first experience as a small boy of the Guildford marque came about in 1947-49 with rides on the Lancet II buses, with their distinctive O4 engines, between Faversham and Herne Bay. Until the advent of the Dart and its derivatives, the vertical engined Lancet was Dennis’s most successful passenger type, and the firm must have hoped that the underfloor engined model would have captured at least some of the market. In fact, the total production of the Lancet UF came to 71, the last being delivered to Glenton Tours in 1961. Several reasons may be offered for this, but reliability was certainly not a factor. East Kent, for example, kept their Lancet UFs for around 17 years. Some of the problems lay with the Dennis design which included features that some bus company engineers viewed with caution. These included the low driving position (the ultimate industry acceptance of which Dennis anticipated by about twenty years) and the high pressure hydraulic braking system that, London Transport’s Routemaster excepted, never became popular. The Dennis ‘O’ type gearbox was an idiosyncratic affair that had sliding mesh (i.e true crash rather than constant mesh) engagement of the four lower gears, fourth being direct drive. To add to the fun, the gearstick operated the “wrong way round”, upwards from right to left. Fifth gear was an overdrive with preselective engagement/disengagement using Maybach design principles. To engage fifth, the gear lever was pushed at any time from fourth position to the left and forward, but nothing happened until the accelerator and clutch were released to allow the revs to die. Then, releasing the clutch and applying the throttle would find the overdrive engaged. To disengage fifth, the stick would be moved back into fourth position at any time, and to actuate the system, the clutch had to be dipped and the engine blipped to raise the revs. Releasing the clutch pedal again would find fourth gear engaged. In the front engined Lancet, the proximity of the engine and gearbox to the driver allowed clean gear changes to be made by ear. In the UF, the remote location of the gearbox halfway down the chassis made this rather more difficult. Later models of the Lancet UF had the 8 litre rather than the 7.58 litre version of the O6 engine and a Meadows gearbox. When UF production finally finished, so did the manufacture of the O6, the last engine in the Dennis range to be offered. Thereafter, the firm used proprietary units. In the mid 1950s the BET group concentrated its purchasing upon AEC and Leyland products, and most other manufacturers of entirely acceptable machinery, including Dennis, were excluded from the ‘approved list’. Dennis tried again to enter the underfloor bus/coach market with the Pelican in 1956, which had the Dennis 92 bhp 5.5 litre engine and a conventional Meadows five speed constant mesh gearbox. The prototype made many demonstration tours, but the supremacy of AEC and Leyland in declining market conditions deterred the Guildford company from putting the Pelican into production. Yet again, however, the reliability of this unique machine was unquestionable. It ran for many years, first with Yellow Bus of Guildford, and finally with Chiltern Queens of Woodcote. More about the characteristics of the Lancet UF may be found on this site:- www.dennissociety.org.uk/nl/lancetuf.html

Roger Cox

01/11/13 – 14:02

Paragon – thanks, I meant to say “most others”, i.e. other than Newport’s. I know there’s a preserved Brutonian vehicle and Aldershot & District had at least one with a bus body.

Geoff Kerr

01/11/13 – 17:57

As has been stated elsewhere on this site, Dennis Lancet UF KOT 600 was never owned by Aldershot and District. The confusion arises because the vehicle was painted in A&D livery and given the fleet number 187, but it remained the property of the manufacturer. It was operated on hire from Dennis from 1st February to 30 November 1953, after which it was returned to the Guildford factory. It subsequently went to Simmonds of Great Gonerby, near Grantham, and then to Cullings of Norwich who eventually passed it on to Blue Bus of Slough. At some stage in its life its Strachans B41R body was rebuilt with a front entrance. Aldershot and District went over to the AEC Reliance for its single deck requirements.

Roger Cox

03/11/13 – 09:02

“Somerset’s Buses” by Laurie James (Tempus 2004) is the source of much useful information concerning the Lancet UFs belonging to Hutchings and Cornelius of which the Brutonian example mentioned above is one. H&C were Dennis users for many years and in 1957 took 3 UFs YYB 117/8/9.117 was DP40F and the other 2 were B42F. All had full service lives. 118 ended up with Brutonian but the interesting thing is that 119 is shown as passing to a Preservation Group in Guildford in September 1973. Where is it now?

Paragon

10/11/13 – 17:17

I had a close relationship with the East Kent UFs when they were used on contract services at Dover Eastern Docks providing a road link from ships and hovercraft to Dover Priory railway station in the 1969 -1971 period. I can vouch for what Roger Cox says about the potential difficulties posed by the remote gearbox, the long linkages and the unconventional gate. I can remember even experienced drivers stirring the long gear lever to find what they were looking for. In spite of being in their late teens at the end at the time they presented a modern image alongside the new hovercraft, and dare I say it they were more reliable than an SRN4! Just worth noting that the East Kent fleet was HJG 3 – HJG 32, slightly different from the numbers in Roger’s comment.

Mike Harvey

11/11/13 – 15:14

Roger – When I was young, about four times a year, I’d get an A&D Lance from Woking to St. Peter’s Hospital, near Chertsey and would try and sit in the nearside/offside downstairs front seat and observe the driver. It was quite some time before I worked out how that Dennis ‘O’ gearbox worked and the strange ‘U’ movement by the driver, with no change in engine note at that moment. I was quite used to preselective methods with the LTE Daimlers around Morden, but a crash gearbox with pre-selective overdrive; egad; that was quite another thing! That whole area was also interesting in that you would have London Country and A&D buses popping in and out of turnings all over. Interesting times.

Chris Hebbron

14/11/13 – 06:00

Paragon enquires what became of YYB 119 once listed as preserved? A previous owner of now preserved YYB 118 told me that circa 1984 he had located 119 laid up behind a pub in the Guildford area. Photographs show that it was in fairly poor order, blocked up with a missing front wheel and a large pile of scaffolding stacked against one side. Despite enquiries no one could be found who knew anything about it and when he returned at a later date it had gone. And as far as I am aware, it has never been seen since. Attemps to trace members of “The Guildford LU2 Group” have been equally negative.

Nick Webster

15/11/13 – 06:25

Chris, the Lance K3 was a remarkable machine, with its free running 7.58 litre 24 valve O6 engine, giving (unlike the optimistic claims of contemporary Crossley and Daimler engines, both of which had a litre greater capacity) a genuine 100 bhp, and this was coupled to the ‘O’ type gearbox with its preselective overdrive fifth gear. It was probably the fastest double decker of its time. In an age when the legal maximum speed for a psv was 30 mph, it always amused me to read the plate on the internal cab bonnet side of the Aldershot and District Lances and Lancets – “Do not engage fifth gear below 30 mph”. In my own experience, sadly only as a passenger, the drivers certainly complied, and these machines spent much of their time in overdrive. To the best of my knowledge, the A&D timetables of the 1960s did not differ greatly in terms of running time from those of the late 1950s. One had to drive a Loline pretty hard to get to Petersfield on time from Guildford or Aldershot, so the old 30mph limit must have been regularly observed in the breach.

Roger Cox

16/11/13 – 11:30

About,1963 I took a return journey from Portsmouth to Milford, swapping from Southdown to A&D at Petersfield.
The Southdown, from memory, was one of the East Lancs PD2/12 registration RUF ###’s, but the A&D was a Loline; interesting, but not a Lance, to my eternal regret Roger, on that challenging route.

Chris Hebbron

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

28/07/18 – 06:29

It’s confession time – I was the “Guildford LU2 Group” After my initial attempt at vehicle preservation (OWB GCV 623) failed with the vehicle being vandalised on a farm in Elstead, I tried again with YYB 119 which I bought directly from H & C and drove home. Sadly, after securing a parking space next to a pub in Witley, I tried to get an MOT and needed to replace the kingpins, something which I was unable to do. Having run out of money and enthusiasm, I am ashamed to say that the bus was abandoned and I suspect that the kindly publican probably sold it for scrap. My next foray into bus ownership was the purchase of VCH 172 from Tillingbourne which I operated as KRC Coaches (Later to become Surreyways).

Hans Retallick

S Bingley – Dennis Lancet – CRE 938


Copyright Unknown

S Bingley (Hemsworth)
1935
Dennis Lancet I
Willowbrook C37F

Dennis Lancet I, chassis number 171027, was bodied by Willowbrook (2830) and seated thirty-seven passengers. It was new in 1935 and was operated by Associated Bus Companies Ltd (formed in 1928 of several local independents) prior to the acquisition of that company by Potteries Motor Traction in 1944. PMT withdrew it from service in 1946 and in April that year it was with S.Bingley, Hemsworth, eventually scrapped by Crossroads Commercials of Leeds in May 1956.
Did S Bingley have any connection with W R & P Bingley of United Services?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

13/07/15 – 06:23

Given that the most common capacities of the time seem to have been 33 seats in coaches and 35 in single deck buses, 37 coach seats must have been very cramped!

Chris Barker

13/07/15 – 17:01

These Lancet I’s suffered from very heavy-looking radiator shells, unlike the equivalent 1935 Lance rads. It rather spolit the look of them.

Chris Hebbron

13/07/15 – 17:01

Perhaps the cramped seating was one reason why Potteries withdrew an eleven year-old vehicle at a time of severe post-war vehicle shortages? The driving cab also looks very fore-shortened leaving the front of the bonnet some way ahead of it.

David Wragg

15/07/15 – 05:59

I, too, am surprised by the large seating capacity. The Lancet I, which appeared on the market in 1931, had a very bulky and deep radiator shell that was shared by the heavier Dennis haulage models of that time, and the cab front was set behind this cowl. The front wings were swept forward in a manner later adopted by wartime Guy Arabs, and these ‘extensions’ were joined across the front by a kind of bumper bar. All this space inefficient front end had to be accommodated within the overall length of 27ft 6ins, which did not allow for a great capacity within the rest of the bodywork. The later Lancet II of 1935 remedied this shortcoming by having a very slim radiator shell mounted at the extreme front, and this was offset to the nearside to maximise driving cab space. Lancet IIs could be fitted with bodywork seating up to 39 passengers. The Lancet I and II were powered by the Dennis 6.79 litre ‘Big Four’ petrol engine that could be rated up to 97 bhp, a very compact and reliable design employing wet cylinder liners. Versions fitted with the ‘O’ type five speed gearbox could attain 58 mph, so the petrol Lancet was no sluggard. From 1934 the advanced O4 diesel was offered as an option in the Lancet II.

Roger Cox

15/07/15 – 15:25

I’d noticed to ‘Guy’ likeness to the wings, myself, Roger.
Pre-war wet-liner engines never seemed to suffer from the same problems as post-war ones did.

Chris Hebbron

15/07/15 – 19:07

You’re referring to the AEC wet liner debacle, Chris. AEC never did solve its wet liner problems, but the responsibility lay with the Southall firm, not with the wet liner concept. Dennis were engineers of a very high order, and knew how to get it right. The post war Dennis O6 diesel, like the earlier O4, was a wet liner engine with the timing gears situated at the rear of the crankcase, yet both of these design features were regarded with disfavour in some quarters following the shortcomings of AEC (wet liners) and Daimler and Meadows (rear timing gears). The Dennis O4 and O6 also employed four valves per cylinder, the only British production engines to be so equipped. The O6 was an outstanding engine, and installed in the Lancet III, was taken up enthusiastically by many small independent operators who valued its total dependability, notwithstanding its advanced specification.

Roger Cox

16/07/15 – 05:38

Amazing that AEC never cured the liner problem.
Renault cars in the 60/70’s had wet liners and I had two cars with them, as did a friend. They were no problem, but the timing chains were another thing. Poor tensioners and these were rear engines put at the front, so that the timing chains were then at the back. My friend with a Renault 16 cut a hole in the front bulkhead to sort out his, then put a plate back over the hole! Post-war Daimler bus also had rear timing chains, difficult to access without removing the engine. The few D’s with them were removed and replaced by surplus AEC 7.7’s within five years.

Chris Hebbron

18/07/15 – 06:23

An early Lancet I, albeit a Short B32F bodied bus rather than a coach, has, thankfully, been preserved. It was new, probably in 1932, to Smith’s of Westoning in Bedfordshire, a firm taken over by Seamarks of Dunstable. In June 1937 it was sold to K W Services, Daventry who ran it until 1944. In 1946 it became a caravan at Snodland in Kent until 1974 when it was bought for preservation. Apparently, this bus still has no electric starter, and has to be swung by hand! A picture may be found here:- https://www.flikr.com/photos/cheltonian1966/19456538949/

Roger Cox

18/07/15 – 06:24

It would appear that S Bingley died in 1968 and the firm was taken over by Pembertons coaches. There seems to have been an approach by W. R & P Bingley for a license to run some of the coach excursions. However the Traffic Commisioners refused the application due to the fact Pembertons were in final talks with Mr Bingleys widow to take over the coach company. Further information is listed on: //archive.commercialmotor.com/
Pemberton who were based at Upton nr Pontefract I think were absorbed into Welsh’s Coaches who operate from the same depot.

Brian Lunn

20/07/15 – 09:48

Thanks for that link Brian. I guess there was no existing family link or Pembertons would not have got a foot in the door in the first place.

Les Dickinson

16/12/15 – 07:27

Further to Chris Hebbron’s reference to timing chains at the rear of the Daimler CD6 and CD650 engines, that’s not the case, like the Dennis O6 and I believe the Meadows 6DC630 the timing was supplied by a gear train, there is further detail in “A Further Look At Buses” by G. G.Hillditch.

Stephen Allcroft

17/12/15 – 07:39

Gardner’s 15.5 litre 6LYT engine broke new ground for the Company in having a rear-mounted timing gear train, rather than Gardner’s traditional triplex timing chain mounted at the front. The Leyland 500-Series engines as fitted to the Leyland National I, New Zealand Bristol RELLs and quite a number of Bristol VRT3s also had rear-mounted timing gear trains.

Brendan Smith

The preserved Smith’s of Westoning Lancet is now fitted with an electric starter. My 1935 ex-Southern Vectis one was always fitted with a starter but one should not over-estimate their effectiveness. They would start a vehicle with a warm engine, maybe even one that had had been garaged overnight, but were never suitable for a completely cold start. For that you needed somebody in the cab and somebody helping on the handle. I have seen other marques of vehicle that were similar.
For the record there is of course no such thing as a “Lancet 1” – in their time they were just “Lancet”. The assumed designation only came about when the Mk2 arrived.

John H

25/06/17 – 09:26

Yes, the original Lancet was just that, like the original Arab, Regent and Regal, and, in the private car world, the Cortina amongst many others. The retrospective application of the appellation ‘1’ or ‘Mark 1’ does clarify the model being discussed. I suppose that, if one wished to be totally accurate, the term ‘1935 Lancet’ should be employed here, but that wouldn’t work either because the Lancet II came out in that same year. Adopting the form Lancet (1), Regal (1) etc seems unnecessarily pedantic to my mind. I should think that only in the military aircraft field would ‘Mark 1’ be used from the start, and then not always.

Roger Cox

Aldershot & District – Dennis Lancet – LAA 228 – 193

LAA 228

Aldershot & District Traction Co
1953
Dennis Lancet III J10C
Strachan FC38R

In 1948, Aldershot & District took delivery of fifteen Dennis Lancet J3 coaches with Strachans C32R bodies. These replaced the externally very similar Lancet II/Strachans C32R vehicles of 1937-38, the main difference being the longer bonnet of the Lancet III which housed the 7.58 litre O6 in place of the 6.5 litre O4 in the pre war model. These post war machines were very fine coaches giving a high standard of refinement. The 24 valve, wet liner, O6 engine was probably the smoothest running diesel engine of all time, and, coupled with the Dennis “O” type five speed gearbox, it was capable of excellent performance on the road. However, by the early 1950s, the traditional half cab, heavy duty, front engined coach was regarded as passe in major fleets, having been supplanted by the fashionably new underfloor engined machine. Even small independents had begun taking the superficially more modern Bedford SB. In 1950, Aldershot & District bought one of the only two Dennis Dominants ever completed (a third was constructed in chassis form only and subsequently dismantled), but had been obliged to look elsewhere for an underfloor engined chassis when Dennis decided not to produce that model in quantity. In 1953, wishing to upgrade its image, but still undecided about the underfloor configuration, Aldershot & District tried out a number of underfloor engined machines from a variety of manufacturers – Guy (Arab LUF), Atkinson (PM 744 & 745), Leyland (Tiger Cub) and Dennis (Lancet UF). Surprisingly, in view of later developments, AEC was not represented in these trials. The story of the Aldershot and District demonstrators may be found at this link.
Instead the company sought to update the coach fleet with 15 full fronted examples of the 30 feet long and 8 feet wide J10C Lancet, with Strachan FC38R bodywork, Nos.188-202, LAA 223-237. These were attractive coaches of traditional appearance, though the effect was spoiled slightly by the cheap looking wire mesh grille, the apparent frailty of which seemed to to be endorsed by the dents that it soon acquired in service. Like all Lancets, these coaches were excellent, smooth running, reliable machines, though the drivers” cabs reputedly became unpleasantly hot, particularly so in the summer months. Aware that these coaches presented an outdated image in a world increasingly dominated by modern, underfloor engined vehicles, Aldershot & District succumbed in 1954 to the lure of the AEC Reliance, purchasing twenty-five examples of the MU3RV model with the 6.75 litre AH410 engine. Angular Strachans Everest C41C bodies were fitted with a high floor level and corresponding waistline. The arrival of the Reliances resulted in the relegation of the full fronted Lancets from regular express work to other duties, and they were all withdrawn in 1963 after a relatively short life of ten years. In the photograph, taken at Victoria in 1960, No.193, LAA 228, its windscreen significantly open wide, is laying over in the company of one of the Strachans bodied Reliances. Behind is LCD 857, one of Southdown”s Beadle rebuilds with FC35C bodywork, 30ft long and 8ft wide on 7ft 6ins chassis sections. This coach was constructed using the units of pre war Leyland Tiger TS8 EUF 96, and retained the 8.6 litre oil engine. Like the full fronted Aldershot & District Lancets, this vehicle (and its fellows) was sold in 1963.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

04/11/19 – 06:15

How surprising in 1953 for such buses/coaches to be delivered to a “substantial” company? Times had already moved on e.g. Ribble with its Leyland/Leyland coaches in 1951 and Tilling with the LS/ECW “beauties” in 1952. A nice story Roger, thank you.

Stuart Emmett

05/11/19 – 06:12

SOU 446

This picture, taken in 1961 in The Grove alongside Aldershot Bus Station – now long gone, the current bus station is a pitiful apology of a facility – shows the Winchester outstation based 1958 Dennis Loline I 338, SOU 446, with East Lancashire H37/31RD body, passing a pair of the fine 1948 Lancet III coaches with Strachans C32R bodies; these were displaced by the 1953 full fronted machines from express duties to private hire and excursion work. 984 GAA 620 and its fellow fourteen coaches were all withdrawn in the year of the photograph, 1961; the Loline survived in A&D service for a further ten years.

Roger Cox

08/11/19 – 10:27

Full-fronted Lancet J10C has thankfully been in preservation for some years. There remains work to be done before we see its welcome appearance at rallies. Thanks, Roger, for the mid-’50s demonstrators link: before reading Eric Nixon’s piece I had no idea how many types had been assessed. The Atkinson is my biggest surprise! But I still can’t help wishing that, like East Kent, they had gone for underfloor Lancets.

Ian Thompson

11/11/19 – 07:09

I think the half cab Lancet III in Roger’s second photo looks much better than this last fling from 1953. Obviously an additional window bay has been inserted to achieve the extra length but it causes the body to droop excessively towards the rear giving a strangely unbalanced look. The side flash doesn’t help either!

Chris Barker

Aldershot & District – Dennis Lancet III – HOU 905/909 – 179/183

Aldershot & District - Dennis Lancet III - HOU 905/909 - 179/183
Aldershot & District - Dennis Lancet III - HOU 905/909 - 179/183
Aldershot & District - Dennis Lancet III - HOU 905/909 - 179/183

Aldershot & District Traction Co.
1950
Dennis Lancet III J10
Strachans B38R

A rather sad set of pictures taken in 1967. Parked at the rear of the Aldershot & District premises in Halimote Road, Aldershot is a line up of Dennis Lancet III buses with Strachans B38R bodywork, headed by HOU 905/909, Nos 179/183, all awaiting disposal after a valued service life of seventeen years. The interior shot was taken within No. 183. There were twelve in this final batch of Lancets, HOU 899/901-911, Nos. 173/175-185, all delivered between October 1950 and January 1951, which were of the 8ft by 30ft J10 model (fleet No. 174 was the solitary A&D Dennis Dominant). They were powered by the advanced 7.58 litre six cylinder 100 bhp Dennis O6 diesel with four valves per cylinder which drove through the “O” Type gearbox, a four speed sliding mesh unit with a preselective fifth gear designed on Maybach principles. The gear lever operated the “wrong way” – upwards from right to left – which allowed for the throw of the gear lever required to engage fifth. Three of the batch were withdrawn in 1965 with the final nine going in 1967, by which time the AEC Reliance had already become firmly established as the A&D standard saloon chassis for thirteen years. Though I was working at Aldershot at that time, I regretfully didn’t get the opportunity to drive one of these, which seemed to see out their final days at Woking depot. The bus on the right of the Lancets is Loline I No. 353, SOU 461 of 1958. On the left is relaxed utility metal framed Weymann bodied Guy Arab II EOR 374 of 1945, originally No 884 of L22/26R configuration, withdrawn from service in 1958 and converted into a tree lopper. HOU 909 was sold for scrap, but the subsequent fate of HOU 905 is not known. Lancet HOU 904, No. 178, has been preserved.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

08/01/21 – 07:43

There is a full description of the Dennis ‘O’ type gearbox at – https://dennissociety.org.uk/nl/ogearbox.html

Peter Williamson

Aldershot & District – Dennis Lancet III – GAA 611 – 975

GAA 611

Aldershot & District Traction Co.
1948
Dennis Lancet III J3
Strachan C32R

During the latter stages of WW2, all commercial vehicle manufacturers had new models awaiting production to take advantage of an anticipated post war boom in passenger and haulage markets. Dennis revealed EOR 743, its prototype of the Mark III Lancet, in the early months of 1945. A major improvement was the entirely new 7.58 litre O6 diesel housed in a longer bonnet in place of the 6.5 litre O4 in the pre war Lancet. From 1948 to 1951 Aldershot & District took a further 114 examples of the Lancet III with saloon bodywork, and these were complemented in 1948 by fifteen Dennis Lancet J3 coaches with Strachans C32R bodies, GAA 609-623, Nos. 973-987, which replaced the externally very similar O4 powered Lancet II/Strachans C32R vehicles of 1937-38. The post war Lancet was an exceptionally fine machine, and the 24 valve, wet liner, O6 engine was probably the smoothest running commercial diesel engine of the time. Coupled with the Dennis ‘O’ type five speed gearbox, it yielded excellent reliability, a high standard of refinement and good performance on the road. Notwithstanding the apparent complexity of the engine, the Lancet III became popular with and respected by many independent operators. In the 1961 photograph, GAA 611, No, 975, delivered in June 1948, is crossing Bridge Street, Guildford (now one way in the opposite direction) and about to turn right into the railway station. This coach was withdrawn in that same year. In 1953, having sampled a number of underfloor engined demonstrators, Aldershot & District stayed with the faithful front engined Lancet III and ordered fifteen 30ft by 8ft examples of the J10C with Strachans full fronted FC38R bodies. Finally, in 1954 the company bowed to the inevitable and turned to the AEC Reliance.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

13/06/22 – 06:34

Strachans produced a very distinctive and rather nice coach body after WW2 and this appears to be one of them but it looks so different with a full canopy at the front. It was far more familiar in half canopy form and I imagine it’s purpose as such was to provide better forward visibility for passengers on excursions and tours etc.
Full canopy coaches seem to have been popular with South of England operators, East Kent, Aldershot & District, Southdown, no doubt because of their many London services, they wanted something which looked rather more ‘business like’ and also capable of providing a clear and comprehensive destination display.
Full canopies were also popular with the Scottish companies on coaches but perhaps for different reasons in that they were also used extensively on stage carriage services.
I like this A&D Dennis, it’s a fine looking coach but I do think the side ‘flash’ is a little over done though!

Chris Barker

LUT – Guy Arab III – KTJ 314 – 408


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Lancashire United Transport
1949
Guy Arab III
Roe B32F

Thanks to Spencer who I think should really be called Sherlock these three have been identified and are here from the “Do You Know” page.
The one on the left is as the above specification. L.U.T. was the largest independent operator in the UK and operated in the South Lancashire area. They were quite diverse with there makes of buses including Atkinson, Foden and Dennis but they did like there Guys. I think but I stand to be corrected they bought the last Guys ever built. If I am wrong let me know, leave a comment.
The bus in the centre was a Western National Omnibus registration 356 HTT fleet no 992 which was a Bristol K5G with an ECW L27/28R built in 1946. I wish I knew more about the Bristol K series so I could write more, can anybody help on that score if so please get in touch.
The bus on the right which I thought was a Leyland Titan is according to Spencer, and I”m not going to argue with him, an L.U.T. Dennis Lance K2 registration GTE 864 fleet no 196 built in 1947 with a Weymann L27/26R body. On further research I have found out that the Dennis Lance K2 had a Gardner 6LW engine which was a 8.4 litre six cylinder diesel.
Just in case you want to know the Dennis Lance K3 had a Dennis 8.0 litre six cylinder diesel and the Lance K4 had a Gardner 5LW 7.0 litre five cylinder diesel. The K4 also had a concealed radiator a touch like the well known Birmingham style, the K 2 and 3 had exposed radiators.

The last Guy Arabs delivered to a British operator actually went to Chester City and were 1969/70 H registered, LUT bought their last Guy in 1967.

Chris Hough

Chris is right the last three Guy Arab Vs delivered to Chester Corporation had Northern Counties H41/32F bodies, registrations DFM 345-7H, fleet numbers 45-47.

Spencer

I thought that LUT had either one or two Guy Wufrunians which they didn’t like and sold them on to West Riding Auto?

Geoff

They only had one Geoff.

137 were built in total delivered as follows

126         West Riding
    2         County Motors
    2         Wolverhampton Corporation
    2         Accrington Corporation
    1         West Wales
    1         Bury Corporation
    1         Lancashire United

Spencer

The Bristol K series and the closely associated ECW bodies – a most complex and fascinating subject concerning two absolutely top class and rightly successful manufacturers.
The vehicle shown is one of the very first post-war standard models bought widely by the Tilling Group. It is to the standard dimensions of the time, 26 feet x 7 feet 6 inches. “K5G” denotes the popular 5 cylinder Gardner 7.0 litre engine. The “lowbridge” low height body is of the type with all the upper saloon seats on the nearside, and a sunken offside gangway sadly causing pain and injury to the offside lower deck passengers, especially those who hadn’t seen the little notice “Lower your head when leaving your seat” – a high but necessary price to pay for the often essential reduction in overall height, until the invention of the highly ingenious “Lodekka.”  A fair few of the early post-war vehicles of this type suffered the indignity of being diverted on loan to London Transport when brand new – this must have gone down very badly with the purchasing operators and their staff – I’ve always held the opinion that it was abominably unfair, and that older vehicles should have been sent to assist with the shortage in the Capital.

Chris Youhill

I agree with Chris’s comments re-London getting other operators’ new buses. But think of the poetic justice – London Transport drivers having to do proper gear-changing!

Stephen Ford

I hadn’t really thought of that Stephen but of course you’re right, although we tend to forget after all these years that legions of manual gearbox STs and LTs etc had “only just gone” in the late 1940s.  The strange quantity, seventy six, of the new all Leyland PD1s (STD 101 – 176) had also just arrived and would be “sorting the men from the boys” too.

Chris Youhill

It’s a bit off-subject, but I have often suspected that the reason why Nottingham broke with the long AEC tradition, and went for Daimlers as their first orders after the war was the strong preference for pre-selector. I gather AEC could only offer crash-gearbox Regent IIs initially. By 1949 NCT was again taking pre-selector Regent IIIs in large volumes, and the 31 CVD6s of 1948 remained an anomaly.

Stephen Ford

31/01/11

I lived in Clifton, between Swinton and Kearsley until 1948, I know!!!, and remember that LUT had a number of Guy double deckers, which were painted matt grey, had squared-off roof corners and wooden slat seats. At the end of the war one was painted white and had ‘fairy lights’ all round. Just a passing comment.

Jim Moyse

31/01/11 – 20:28

Words/phrases like ‘abominably’ and ‘poetic justice’ are surely a bit strong! Central Division London Transport had barely digested its independents with their multiplicity of makes by 1939. It had updated Green Line and then ordered some 350-odd RT’s which were cut back to 150, and was due to replace much of its fleet by 1942. It lost many vehicles in the Blitz/V bomb attacks (22 complete Tilling STL’s alone at the bombed Croydon Garage, with others damaged) and used up its body float on patched up chassis. It lent out a considerable number of vehicles for most of the latter part of the war, mainly petrol Tilling ST’s, many of which, on return, were condemned (the last didn’t return until 1947). Buses were failing faster than they could be replaced, despite many vehicles being renovated to an excellent standard and other bodies strapped up and maybe even held together by string! What didn’t help was RT production being delayed by a year so that the bodies could be jig-built. Craven-bodied RT’s and SRT’s helped fill gaps. Passengers rocketed, with the maximum number reached in 1949. And it was borrowing a lot of vehicles (mainly coaches) from outsiders. By 1949, nationalised, it was probably a good decision by BTC to quickly allocate new buses, than have a lot of near-scrap vehicles cascaded over a period of months.
It says something for Chiswick that buses designed for a 10 year lifespan lasted over twice that in some cases, even without a rebuild. Some LT ‘scooters’ lasted over 21 years!
And there were still plenty of manual gear change buses in 1949, all 435 Guys, Bristols, (austerity STD’s (they WERE a challenge!), many T’s, pre and post-war, TD’s and some country STL’s on loan.
Many of the drivers would originally have come from independents and be familiar with manual ‘boxes. If any men were sorted out from the boys, I’d say it was the tram drivers who had to convert over to buses!!

Chris Hebbron

01/02/11 – 05:44

Hi Chris – all a harmless bit of banter! On the same subject, I recall a Meccano Magazine cartoon at the time of the vehicle loans to London. It featured a number of buses from various cities, which were sweeping round Trafalgar Square in brilliant sunshine – all except for a Manchester Corporation vehicle which was driving along under its own permanent rain cloud.

Stephen Ford

01/02/11 – 05:44

Many very valid and respected points there Chris H and I must confess that I’d never really studied the “diverted new vehicles” question to such a depth. So I can now see the matter in a more informed way and amend my “abominably unfair” criticism somewhat – but I do still feel though that the intended recipients, both engineering and operating, of the shiny new steeds may well have felt somewhat maligned and I think that I would too. I agree about the tram drivers’ dilemma and I think it nothing short of miraculous that they were able to make the conversion in such large numbers, and those changing to trolleybuses didn’t have a very much easier alternative either !!

Chris Youhill

01/02/11 – 18:52

My comment was light-hearted, too, but I thought a bit a background info would be interesting. I also forgot to mention that the government of the day put a restriction on the number of PSV deliveries, which, in 1948, meant a shortfall of 748 in RT deliveries, which must have been devastating. Although this restriction applied nationally, too, the misery would have been spread out more and the effect less per operator.
It is on record that the diversion of the new Bristol/ECW steeds caused a lot of resentment to intended recipients. As for London Transport, the ever-difficult Met. Police put in their two penn’orth by banning lowbridge buses with their so-called slower dwell-times at bus stops, relenting eventually by restricting them from certain routes!
This meant that, at times, the Bristol K5G’s were put on hilly routes they were unsuitable for. And there were problems with hinged doors and garage capacity! In some ways, welcome though they were, they must have been a mixed blessing to LTE.
If anyone has an interest in reading more, Ken Glazier’s book ‘Routes to Recovery’ is the one to buy.
As for tram drivers in London, when LPTB was formed in 1933, the LCC was the dominant tram operator and there was resentment that local authority staff, some admin, who just happened to be there at that point of their career, were trapped in PSV-land from then on. However, there was no retirement age for such staff and many tram drivers went on for years after the LPTB retirement age! But enough, I’m digressing!

Chris Hebbron

02/02/11 – 06:23

This further information is extremely interesting to me and tells me much that I never knew, even though I was a frequent visitor to Streatham SW16 throughout the War and until around 1995. I well remember the K5Gs on route 137, and I believe that they were not confined to parts of the service but undertook the full very long journey from Highgate Archway Tavern to Crystal Palace. Based no doubt at Victoria (Gillingham Street GM) they probably posed few problems to the drivers there as the Leyland PD1s STD 101 – 176 (or a number of them) were already there. I can imagine the frustration though at having to stop half way up Central Hill at Norwood when already half an hour late at busy times. Happy days for dedicated busmen.

Chris Youhill

02/02/11 – 21:03

Would the Tilling companies concerned have been consulted about the arrangement beforehand or was it a done deal by a higher authority? When the Bristols eventually reached their rightful owners, effectively as second hand vehicles, was there any compensation or had the companies simply been obliged to lend a hand without question?

Chris Barker

07/03/11 – 09:21

After LUT were taken over by GMT, Barton of Chilwell became the largest independent operator who too had a very diverse fleet just like LUT.

Roger Broughton

07/03/11 – 16:03

Chris B – It was a done deal! The Tilling Group had voluntarily sold out to the BTC in September 1948 and almost immediately were told to divert 25% of their new deliveries to LTE, some 200, later reduced to 190 (45 lowbridge). The order annoyed the operators, who felt that LTE had brought the shortage on itself by delaying new vehicle production by insisting the RT family bodies be jig-built.
The first Bristols came in December 1948 and the last went in June 1950.
Most other non-Tilling buses which helped out were single-deckers, although my posting about the Thorneycroft Daring mentioned it was one exception. Others were three new Daimler/Brush CVG6’s from Maidstone Corporation and, from Leeds Corporation, 17 pre-war AEC Regents/Roe (with one Weymann) with pre-selective gearboxes (Leeds STL’s)!
Unlike the other surplus austerity buses, which went all over the place, but were banned from going to a BET company, when the 29 austerity Bristols were then ready to leave LTE, the word was put out to BTC in advance, so that the ex-Tilling companies could prepare for their transfer.

Chris Hebbron

10/03/11 – 07:41

Referring to the comment by Jim Moyse, I suspect the grey Guy’s were wartime deliveries with utility specification bodies. A trip to most local libraries in South Lancashire should yield a copy of British Bus And Trolleybus Systems number 7, Lancashire United/SLT, which details the whole story.
With regard to the Guy Arab IV’s and V’s of the fifties/sixties, a friend of mine drove these, working out of Swinton depot. He subsequently purchased number 134, 6218 TF, the penultimate open rear platform model, later disposed of, current owner/location unknown.
A peculiarity of the gearbox is that depressing the clutch pedal to it’s full stroke before selecting first gear results in the the box locking, preventing any attempt to upshift. I can’t remember whether double-declutching released it, or whether it was necessary to stop the vehicle. Apparently something around 75% of pedal travel is all that is required for normal operation.

Phil Meadows

15/03/11 – 16:43

It’s taken me a while to puzzle out Phil’s gearbox lock-up. Pressing the clutch pedal all the way down activates a device called a clutch-stop, which is a transmission brake on the shaft connecting the clutch to the gearbox. This may be useful in counteracting clutch-spin when engaging a gear at rest, but more importantly it can be used to speed up gear-changing. The clutch-stop on Guys was more gentle than on Bristols and Leylands, producing a comfortably fast change rather than a rapid one. But I’ve never heard of a clutch stop locking a gearbox before.
I finally realised that trying to move out of gear with a transmission brake on is exactly like trying to do so with the clutch engaged and the engine stopped. The gearbox input shaft needs to be free to rotate, so you need to lift the clutch pedal slightly to free it off.

Peter Williamson

18/06/11 – 18:31

Just a small point in the original note to this picture. The Dennis Lance K3 certainly had a Dennis power plant, but it was the O6 of 7.58 litres capacity, a four valve per cylinder engine of excellent quality. The 8 litre variant of this engine didn’t appear until the later 1950s. Dennis was the only British manufacturer to design and produce diesel engines with four valve heads, in 5 litre, 5.5 litre, 7.58 litre and 8 litre sizes. The Crossley HOE7 was initially designed as a “four valver” using Saurer concepts, but, when Saurer asked for a royalty payment, the Crossley engine was rapidly redesigned as a “two valver”, with disastrous consequences, becoming notorious for its poor performance and unreliability.
Turning to the “London Transport question”, a great many London buses were certainly rebuilt in their lifetimes, particularly when Aldenham was up and going. Even some of the older types were given major body overhauls. Many of the six wheeled LT single deck “scooters”, which I am old enough to be able to recall having travelled on, on routes 213 and 234, were given major body overhauls by Marshalls of Cambridge around 1949. From the RT type onwards, London buses were designed to be taken apart every five years or so, with chassis and body being sent on separate tracks through Aldenham Works. Each chassis emerging at the far end then took the first available rebuilt body, not the one it went in with. No other operator in the land followed this costly procedure, and the supposed long life of London bus types needs to be balanced against the regular visits to Aldenham. The much vaunted RM only survived for so long in London service because of this rebuilding procedure. The Northern General RMs, which had to rely on standard overhaul methods, were withdrawn around 1980 after a life of some 15 years.

Roger Cox

01/09/11 – 10:55

In Relation to Lancashire United’s Sole Guy Wulfrunian, they actually ordered 3 to be fleet numbers 58-60 in the Post 1959 fleet, but only 58 (802 RTC) was delivered it being unpopular, there is a picture of it shown close to Atherton depot on service 82 on flickr. The remaining order for 2 was changed and materialised as the trusted Guy Arab fleet number 59 and 60.
The Last numbered Guy Arab in the LUT fleet was 290 delivered in 1967 (265-290) In the post 1959 fleet LUT Guy Arabs were
18-27 with Northern counties body
40-49 with Metro Cammell Weymann bodies (40 was rebuilt in 1966 to a front door layout following serious accident on the East Lancs road at Ellenbrook)
50-57 NCME
59 and 60, then 61-80, 103-135 all rear loaders with NCME 136 (6220TF) was the first build front loader NCME
159-170, 186-195, 218-240, 265-290 all NCME
Many an enjoyable day riding on, conducting and driving these buses I worked at LUT Atherton from being 18 in 1977 until it closed on 7th Feb 1998. I still work for First now some 34 years.

Chris Stott

02/09/11 – 11:23

With regard to the loaned Provincial Bristols to L.T.E. if you watch the film starring Jack Warner The Blue Lamp one passes by in the dark in one scene.

Philip Carlton

26/11/12 – 08:39

In the list of Guy Wulfrunian chassis above the total of 137 is correct but missing from the list underneath are the two demonstrators, 7800 DA and 8072 DA. I believe that they were both ultimately sold to West Riding for spares. Sold to West Riding for service were the LUT, West Wales, and two County examples – one of the ex-County ones is now preserved. Despite their illogical layout, both the Accrington ones saw further service. I have read that they initially went to Ronsway of Hemel Hempstead, but one finished up with Byley Garage in Cheshire – and they did use it, as I saw it on the road on one occasion. The Bury one was sold on to a succession of Welsh independents before ending up with Berresford’s at Cheddleton – I’m not sure whether or not it was actually used there. Later it was placed in storage behind GMT’s Hyde Road depot as a prelude to a proposed preservation, but for reasons which now escape me, this ultimately didn’t come to pass.
The two Wolverhampton examples failed to sell to any subsequent operator.
Until I read Chris’s post above I had quite forgotten that LUT 59 & 60 had been intended to be Wulfrunians. The order was presumably altered before even No.58 had been constructed.

David Call

26/11/12 – 10:28

Talking of Wulfrunians, coincidentally I have just been re-reading David Harvey’s fascinating book ‘The Forgotten Double Deckers’, in which he states that Rotherham and Belfast had ordered three and one Wulfrunians respectively but cancelled their orders very quickly when they began to hear bad news about the model. The two cancelled LUT buses would have been rear entrance types like Accrington’s pair, as would even more incredibly a pair provisionally ordered by Todmorden J.O.C – a staunch and very traditional Leyland customer. The mind just boggles at the thought of Todmorden Wulfrunians climbing up to Mankinholes!

John Stringer

27/11/12 – 07:32

I recall that West Riding ordered a batch of single deck Wulfrunians but changed the order in favour of double deckers. What would they have looked like? I was interested in the information about potential customers who suddenly got cold feet.

Philip Carlton

29/11/12 – 07:32

I imagine that a single-deck Wulfrunian would have worked a lot better than the double-deck ones did, owing to the reduction in weight. As to what it would have looked like, I think that would depend on whether Roe were allowed to design it themselves or had more nonsense imposed on them by Park Royal. It’s a fascinating thought, as there were no low-floor single deckers around at all at that point.

Peter Williamson

29/11/12 – 11:05

Wasn’t the Guy Victory export chassis to some extent a version of a single deck Wulfrunian? I believe it had a front mounted engine, semi-automatic transmission, disc brakes and optional air suspension.

John Stringer

03/11/14 – 06:24

I can see that this thread is almost two years old … but regarding LUT Wulfrunians. I always thought that nos 58 AND 59 left the bodyworker en-route to Atherton BUT No 59 was written off in a road traffic accident before arriving in Howe Bridge?

Iain H

07/11/14 – 15:43

Iain H, Please refer to Bus lists on the web and can you see any NCME body numbers for 58 & 59 if they were built as Wulfrinians?
No, they were built as standard 30 rear entrance Arab IV’s

Mike N

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

07/09/20 – 06:11

Regarding the Accrington Wulfrunians they were in sense Guy Arabs having manual gearboxes instead of a semi automatic one.
Why Accrington specified rear entrance is probably due to the council committee at the time (look at 14,15 and 16) these came as rear entrances

F. Atkinson

08/09/20 – 06:21

Re Accrington’s rear entrance Wulfrunians, see my article Days out with Martin Hannett on this site.

Phil Blinkhorn

Aldershot and District – Dennis Lance K4 – LOU 40 – 212


Copyright Roger Cox

Aldershot and District Traction Company 
1953
Dennis Lance K4
East Lancs L28/28R

This picture was taken in Woodbridge Road, Guildford, about 1961, and shows one of the 32 “tin fronted” Dennis Lance K4 buses unique to the Aldershot and District Traction Company. The first 20 of these had East Lancs L28/28 bodywork of the type shown, and the final 12 were bodied by Weymann with a version of the Orion, again seating 56 with 28 on each deck. The Gardner 5LW engines in these buses were removed from withdrawn Lancets of 1940 vintage, but were rebuilt and updated to the latest specification to virtually new standard. As usual with A&D buses, these vehicles had five speed gearboxes. I never drove one of these, but I understand that, with their slow revving (1700 rpm) 94 bhp engines they were less than lively, and not popular with the Aldershot and District driving staff, who christened them “Lulus” from their registration letters. The motorcycle and sidecar combination overtaking the bus is entirely characteristic of those times and something that is never seen today. I cannot identify the make of motorbike, but it is certainly something of a veteran itself as it has girder type front forks.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

26/06/11 – 11:32

The same nickname was given by Samuel Ledgard staff to ex London RT LLU 803 – her thunder was somewhat stolen though by the later arrival of some RTLs with the same “Christian name.”
Despite the cumbersome and leisurely progress of the A & D Dennis Lance I have to say that it is an extremely attractive vehicle indeed – the characterful destination display and the beautiful livery of that operator being the icing on the cake.

Chris Youhill

26/06/11 – 19:59

Aldershot and District always had a small engine policy, and it is difficult to understand why the Lance K4 should have been singled out by certain staff for a modest performance. The pre war Lances with the high set radiator style (as on the Lancet II and III) were delivered with Dennis four cylinder sixteen valve O4 engines of 6.5 litres giving 82 bhp. Most of these early Lances were later rebodied and refitted with 5LW engines, and the wartime Guy Arabs also had the 5LW powerplant. The first postwar ‘deckers were Lance K3s with the Dennis O6 of 100 bhp, and these were lively, smooth running buses, and the following K4s of the type shown above must have seemed much more sedate by comparison. Then came Lolines powered by the 6LW engine, and it is probable that, by a certain point in time and within the experience of some drivers, the Lance K4s were the only double deck buses in the fleet still using the 5LW. My experience of the K4 as a passenger indicated that its road performance was fully up to the general standard of the time.

Roger Cox

27/06/11 – 11:48

Happily, Tim Stubbs and Malcolm Spalding rescued sister ship A&D K4 220 some years ago, and it has been a regular at running days and other events for at least seventeen years. I’ve had the very good fortune to be on the driving rota, and it really a most characterful bus, with the reassuring thump of the 5LW and the unique 5-spd gearbox, with 1st, 2nd and 3rd sliding (not constant)mesh and preselective overdrive. The cab is not a model of comfort or convenience, but the steering is a joy. Brakes are vacuum over hydraulic, and seem to need frequent adjustment but are wonderfully progressive in action.
Seating is 28 on each deck. On top, counting from the front, the seats are for 4, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3 and 3. Even on a 27-long body eight rows upstairs was still less common than seven on mid-fifties lowbridge bodies but—as on contemporary Roe lowbridge products—the back seat upstairs is set as far back as it can be without compromising staircase headroom, so there’s plenty of knee room between seats.
She’s admittedly slow in hilly country, but will do 48mph on the flat and on a well-chosen route puts the miles behind her surprising quickly.
Tim’s K3 of 1950, with the Dennis O6 engine, is 6″ narrower and a foot shorter but is actually slightly heavier than the K4. Unlike the 5LW, the amazingly smooth O6 is a spinner, not a slogger. The difference in engine gives the two otherwise very similar vehicles a totally different character. The 5LW demands a well-adjusted clutch-stop, but the lighter flywheel of the O6 makes it unnecessary for upward changes—except 1st to 2nd on hills.
These two vehicles are wonderful survivals, and it’s a pity that none of the lightweight (and apparently very lively) Weymann Orion-bodied K4s survived. When I first saw one at Reading Station the pop-rivets put me off. How could my schoolboy judgment have been so flawed!
There should be Dennis delights at Alton Running Day, Hampshire, this July the 17th, and the big event is 100 years of Aldershot&District at Farnborough, Hants, Sunday May the 27th 2012.

Ian Thompson

28/06/11 – 06:24

Ian, I lived in Farnborough, Hants, for nine years from the mid sixties, by which time the Loline reigned supreme in the A&D double deck fleet, and I had a spell at Aldershot depot as a driver before returning to the admin side of the bus industry at Reigate. Although I have travelled as a passenger on the A&D K3 and K4 Lances, and my knowledge of Dennis buses goes right back to 1946 to 1949 when, as a child, I used to travel with my mother on the pre war O4 engined East Kent Lancet IIs between Faversham and Herne Bay, I have never driven a Lance or a Lancet. I have always had a strong regard for traditional Dennis machines, and Dennis were the only British manufacturer to put oil engines with four valves per cylinder into quantity production. Crossley made a wartime prototype “four valver” that performed well, but when Saurer asked for a royalty or licence fee for the use of its combustion chamber design, Crossley hastily redesigned the engine as a “two valver” with catastrophic consequences for reliability and performance. I am envious your driving sessions in these old Dennis buses, and it is wonderful to see them in preservation. My own short lived foray into the preservation scene was as part of a group that saved the Dennis Ace YD 9533. The costs of restoration became prohibitive, and we sold it on, and it is now thankfully a regular on the rally scene. The Ace was certainly an interesting machine to drive with its central accelerator pedal! I now live in East Anglia, but I will certainly bear in mind next year’s Aldershot and District centenary

Roger Cox

28/06/11 – 11:38

Roger, I’m equally envious of your youthful rides on 04-engined Lancets. From what I’ve heard, they were livelier than one might expect from only 6.5 litres. I believe one is preserved and I very much hope one day to have a ride on it. I used to think the days of four-cylinder engines powering full-size buses were behind us, but the new Alexander-Dennis diesel-electrics in Reading, Oxford and Manchester seem to manage very nicely with their little fours.
When I worked at Smiths in Reading there were still 04 engine bits in the workshop, although the last 04s were probably off the road by 1960.
The only Ace I’ve ever ridden on in genuine service took me from Yarmouth to Freshwater, Isle of Wight, but the sound was all wrong as it had a Bedford OB engine and gearbox.
I can see why Crossley had for legal reasons to hurriedly redesign the Saurer combustion chamber, but I wonder why at the same time they abandoned the 4-valve head? That surely wouldn’t have infringed any patents.
The Reading downdraught-engined Crossley deckers were certainly slow, with their UW of 8.3.1, and they tended, oddly, to be used on the hillier routes, but they lasted for 18 years, so the workshop must have got a feel for keeping them happy.

Ian Thompson

29/06/11 – 06:52

Ian, your comments on Dennis and Crossley machines has prompted me to add a few more. My memories as a four to seven year old might now be optimistically tinged with nostalgia, but I do recall the curious muffled drumming sound of the Dennis O4 engines, very different from the local Maidstone and District Tigers (petrol and diesel), but the progress was very smooth and lively. I loved those old Dennis Lancets, and the high mounted radiator offset to the nearside denoted a truly independently minded manufacturer. The later Lancet III was surely one of the finest vehicles of its time.
I have some b/w pictures of three Smiths of Reading Lancets that brought a private party to Hampton Court in 1961. I will send them to the site in due course.
Still with Reading, I have a few pictures of that operator’s all Crossley DD42/8 machines which, as you say, were fitted with the downdraught engine that represented AEC’s attempt to mitigate the abysmal characteristics of the HOE7. I took the pictures in 1967 by which time the Dennis Loline reigned supreme in the double deck fleet. Having moved to the Gosport area when I was nine years old, I frequently saw the Portsmouth Crossleys in service, but I never travelled on a bus of this make until 1958, by which time I was living in the Croydon area. This was the year of the seven week London bus strike, and an outfit grandiosely calling itself “The People’s League for the Defence of Freedom” obtained permission to run some routes during the stoppage. One of these was route 2 between Croydon and New Addington, and two of the four buses allocated were ex Lancaster Corporation all Crossley SD42 (the others were an ex Crosville TD7 and an ex Lytham St Annes CWA6). Admittedly the Crossleys were 11 years old by then, and always well loaded, but I was amazed by the truly mediocre hill climbing performance of these machines. I have a picture of HTC 614 at New Addington taken with my trusty Brownie 127, and will send it in sometime.

Roger Cox

29/06/11 – 06:58

The strange thing about the Crossley HOE engine was that they never cured, or bothered to cure, the breathing problems that became apparent with the conversion to two-valves per cylinder. Yet, when AEC took them over, the problem was sorted out quite quickly!

Chris Hebbron

29/06/11 – 19:41

Chris, judging by the comprehensive “Crossley” book by Eyre, Heaps and Townsin, the Crossley Motors company did not take kindly to external criticism, and any that was forthcoming merely served to strengthen the firm’s intransigence, a very curious attitude to adopt in a fiercely commercial environment. Thus, not only did it take no meaningful action to solve the shortcomings of the HOE7, but it appeared to resent the AEC solution that appeared as the downdraught engine, even continuing to supply unmodified HOE7 engines in new buses. A similar cussedness was displayed in respect of the steering geometry on all Crossley buses. A simple readjustment in design would have cured the exceptionally heavy steering characteristics, that, in the case of the three axled “Dominion” trolleybuses, bordered on the impossible, but Crossley would not shift its position. No wonder AEC got fed up.

Roger Cox

30/06/11 – 05:33

What amazes me about Crossley is the difference in attitude between their chassis and body departments. Whereas the chassis people stuck stubbornly to their own ideas come what may, their first standard postwar body was designed not by Crossley but by Manchester Corporation. The special Manchester features – curves, waistrail steps and cantilever platform – quickly became optional, and even the first Liverpool bodies were actually the de-Manchestered Manc design reworked as a four-bay body with a flat front, as required by the Liverpool spec. I don’t think Crossley ever designed a double-deck body from scratch at all, although their postwar framing system was all their own.

Peter Williamson

01/07/11 – 05:27

Thank you Roger and Peter, for mentioning the diverse attitude of the two parts of Crossley, one self-serving and the other accommodating towards its customers. As we know, a chain is only as good as its weakest link!

Chris Hebbron

03/07/11 – 19:54

Talking about Track routes to this day the Arriva service 268 Dewsbury- Bradford service is still referred as the Track although in tramway days the service only went as far as Moorend as did service G in bus days.The service 281 Bradford to Thornhill is always referred as The Donkey for obvious reasons.

Philip Carlton

30/04/12 – 07:53

Roger, in his copy, records that these vehicles had five-speed gearboxes, but I seem to recall that they had four-speed boxes with overdrive. The driver would move the lever in a semi-circular way to gain overdrive. I only travelled on them from Woking to St. Peter’s Hospital, Ottershaw, a very flat route, so was never able to judge their hill-climbing capabilities. When living in Portsmouth, I did travel on the Petersfield – Guildford route as far as Milford on a couple of occasions, but that was on a Loline. I imagine that the Lances would also have been on that challenging route over the North Downs and I’d have loved to have ridden on them up there!
A childhood delight was going on holiday, around 1950, from Kingston – Southsea on a duplicate Southdown Leyland Cub coach. But I digress!

Chris Hebbron

30/04/12 – 09:12

Oh, there you go – as Chris Youhill has said elsewhere, that’s the fun of this site. Digress away. After the pathetic failure that was yesterday’s Cobham/Wisley event, we may only be left with our digressions!

David Oldfield

01/05/12 – 06:48

Well, the weather must have been appalling, if Gloucester was anything to go by, but were there other problems, too, David?

Chris Hebbron

01/05/12 – 06:50

Chris, the Dennis gearbox was an overdrive unit, giving five gears in all. Overdrive was a preselective gear designed using Maybach principles. To engage from fourth, the gear lever was moved at any time, as with a conventional preselector, to the left and forward, and actual engagement occurred when the accelerator was released to allow the revs to die. When the accelerator was pressed again, fifth gear was already engaged. To change down, the lever was moved back to the fourth position, and engagement occurred when the accelerator was released and then pressed again to raise the revs for the fourth ratio. Sadly, I have never driven a Dennis with such a gearbox, though I have travelled many miles as a passenger on Lances and Lancets so equipped. Ian T is the expert when it comes to practical experience.

Roger Cox

01/05/12 – 06:51

Is that Arthur and Olive from On the Buses just passing?

Philip Carlton

01/05/12 – 19:27

We were discussing this on Sunday, Chris, saying that the organisers might use the weather as an excuse. The weather was atrocious – but that wasn’t the problem. Most of the “runs” were a circuit of the airfield – not a decent run on proper roads. The 499 to/from Weybridge Station was supposed to be half modern low-floor vehicles – it was even worse. More of them, supplemented by re-engined RMs. I have friends “high” in the industry who said after Dunsfold, and then this, they will no longer be supporting it. Likewise people in the business who are enthusiasts who brought their own vehicles from wide and far. We were charged £10 to enter, get soaked and find nothing to entertain us – and a further £2 for the programme. Sorry you got me going Chris, but it wasn’t the weather and, despite living up the hill, it won’t be in my diary next year.
Rant over, now let’s get on with friendly sharing of expertise and experience.

David Oldfield