I thought I’d lost this photo until I found it today tucked inside a book. My father was very friendly with Joe Mc.Cowen and I think he fought with his nephew(?) in the war (sadly he was killed in N Africa in 1941). Joe lived at 1 Bonny Street Camden Town NW1 and I used to go there with my father on a spurious excuse, which I suspect was just a ruse so some heavy drinking could be done. Joe’s place was in terrible condition and stank of old cigars. I think the bus was used on the 3 or 53 route, at least the bus terminus was very close to Bonny St. I remember my father telling me that Drake had run off with the conductress, so I don’t know what happened to the company after that! The picture looks like it might have been taken in Regent’s Park. I look forward to any comments regarding the above operator or vehicle.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Canty
01/07/12 – 09:55
The definitive work on this subject is “London’s Buses Volume 1 – The Independent Era 1922-1934” by Messrs Blacker, Lunn, and Westgate, published by H J Publications in 1977 (and of course long out of print), from which the following information is extracted. According to the book, the business commenced in August 1923 and was originally a partnership of William Drake of 245 Great College Street N1 and Robert McCowen; but Mr McCowan left the business in about 1926 and Mr Drake continued as sole proprietor until he sold the business to Birch Brothers in October 1928. Two buses were operated: XP 435 Leyland LB2 Dodson O26/22RO new 8/23 XT 4603 Leyland LB4 Dodson O26/22RO new 5/24 In addition a second-hand Leyland LB4 Dodson, XP 4355, was acquired for spares in 11/23. Its chassis was dismantled and the body used as a shed. XT 4603 achieved fame when it was overturned by protestors during the General Strike, but ran in service the next day with its windows boarded over. The original livery was creamy-yellow and black (or possibly very dark navy) with DRAKE & McCOWAN fleetname in large gold letters as per your photograph. After Mr McCowan left the fleetname was changed to DRAKE. In 1928 the livery was changed to red and white and the fleetname became W. R. Drake in script lettering. Drake and McCowan are known to have operated on route 27 (their version becoming 206 under the Bassom system in December 1924). Under the 1924 Act one of their buses operated on the 206 and the other on the 284A (unfortunately I have no idea where those routes went in those days). Drake & McCowan’s buses were originally kept, with those of several other independents, at Dangerfield’s garages in Camden Town and Chalk Farm, but when Dangerfield sold out to the LGOC in 1927 they were moved to Bridge Wharf Garage in Kentish Town Road.
Michael Wadman
05/07/12 – 16:20
I know the shiny paintwork and stylish fleet name helps, but what a handsome, well-proportioned bus! There are good- and not so good-looking vehicles of all periods, but the team that designed this one can look down and be proud.
Ian Thompson
05/07/12 – 16:21
Pauls photograph is a great reminder of the era of the London “Pirates”. This Dodson body was the most popular fitment to Leyland LB series, and Dennis buses over the whole “Pirate” scene, followed by the Birch body, and, less common, Strachan and Brown. There is something uniquely distinctive about Dodson bodywork, as has been discussed before, but this is emphasised more when seen on some provincial fleets, notably Wolverhampton, and the style was quite popular in several fleets. Peterborough and District comes to mind, as well as Hastings Tramways. I wonder if this particular bus was one of the survivors into LT days, which were converted to trolleybus tower wagons. Thanks for a nice photograph.
John Whitaker
05/07/12 – 17:44
If memory serves me right, John W, LPTB stayed true to its AEC roots and used withdrawn NS buses as tower wagons, wire lubricators and, more generally, as tree loppers and mobile canteens. Surprisingly, at a time when many of the first-generation Green Line T’s were being replaced and available for conversion, it also bought some AEC Mercury lorries for use as tower wagons. I have no idea what vehicles LUT used for their ‘Diddler’ system which started in 1931, but maybe continued with the same ones they’d used to maintain the erstwhile tram system. It was all done on the cheap.
Chris Hebbron
06/07/12 – 14:14
I refer you to Capital Transport`s “The London Trolleybus Vol.2” re LB Leyland tower wagons. Full details are in there! The original ADC vehicles were used in LUT days.
Recent correspondence about Dodson bodies and John Whitaker’s comment that Hastings Tramways were users of them brought this picture to mind. It is a 1928 Guy BT with 56-seat Dodson body. Thanks to Keith Harwood for his kind permission to use it, and to Chris Youhill for the information that the bus was known as ‘Happy Harold’ and for reminding me that it was fitted in 1960 with a Commer TS3 diesel engine.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roy Burke
15/02/11 – 15:19
These Guy trolleys were the only open top trolleybuses as opposed to later conversions built. They were part of Hastings initial fleet which contained both double and single deck trolleys You Tube has a clip from a Guy Motors film about the opening of the Hastings system available to watch.
Chris Hough
16/02/11 – 06:11
Must be (have been?) fun up there when it dewired….?
Joe
05/04/11 – 05:32
Yes, I agree about de-wiring. I have been upstairs on that vehicle and all the mechanism is within easy reach. It looks very easy to bang your head on when it’s not in use. I tried to imagine being an upstairs passenger during any operation. Also, sitting upstairs on Hastings seafront must have been bracing. Not only that, by the sides upstairs are very low and I think having small children up there could be interesting!!
Richard J. Porter
21/04/11 – 06:13
The Commer TS3 engine is a story in itself. Although it might be assumed that the TS stood for two-stroke, which the engine undoubtedly was, it actually stood for Tilling-Stevens. It was an opposed-piston engine. The bore ran right through the engine and the pistons heads met in the centre, with a crankshaft at each side, which joined at one end to form a single drive shaft. Its post-war development was hindered through lack of finance and, towards the end, most of the parts were being made by hand by TS engineers. I believe it had three cylinders, the rough equivalent of a six cylinder four-stroke engine. At Rootes Group takeover, the engine obviously showed enough promise for development to continue, with the engines eventually being used widely in Commer and Karrier commercial vehicles right through to the 1960’s. The sporty roar from these vehicles was always very distinctive. How sporty the performance actually was, I am unaware, the same with the fuel consumption. I assume the vehicles measured up to rivals well enough, as did the engine, or it would not have continued in production.
Chris Hebbron
21/04/11 – 11:55
Is it my imagination from the mists of time or was it actually the case that the Commer two stroke engine could, on occasion, start up and run backwards ?? I seem to remember that this could occur if the engine had previously stopped at a certain point in the combustion process. This seems a far fetched theory but I seem to recall that it was in fact true.
Chris Youhill
28/04/11 – 06:38
The Commer two stroke was (in) famous for decoking itself when working hard uphill, sending large showers of sparks out of the exhaust. I remember several drivers of Commer two-stroke wagons telling me tales of car drivers flagging them down, when night trunking, to tell them their wagon was ‘on fire’ when it was actually decoking itself. The Perkins R6 engine as fitted to some 1950’s Dodge wagons (of Hell Drivers film fame) were renowned for running backwards and when this happened the rack fell off the governor and the engine raced away and couldn’t be stopped! This engine was not as successful as the P6 version which was a popular choice to convert many petrol engined coaches and lorries of the ’40s and ’50s before chassis manufacturers offered diesel options in their lighter chassis. Perhaps Chris is thinking about the R6 in his posting above.
Eric
06/05/11 – 07:11
Interesting comments from Chris and Eric about engines running backwards. When I worked for West Yorkshire Road Car, Johnnie Berry, a fitter with more than a passing interest in buses, told of a similar experience. He had taken a spare bus up to Harrogate bus station from the depot, as a driver had reported his bus (a Bristol K5G) would not restart at the terminus, due to a flat battery. The driver had however, managed to bump start the bus in order to get back to the bus station. As the affected vehicle pulled in to the ‘layover’ area at the top of the bus station, Johnnie was waiting to take it back for attention. However, the driver – probably out of habit – then proceeded stop the engine. Johnnie shouted at him to leave it running, and the engine, just on the point of stopping, fortunately fired back into life. It was only when Johnnie came to move off that he noticed something was amiss, as the bus attempted to go backwards! Undaunted he tried again with the same result. Putting it in reverse allowed the gentle beast to move forwards, and then Johnnie realised that the Gardner 5LW was running backwards! He said the driver must just have caught the engine ‘on the rock’ as it was about to stop. Johnnie felt that the well-balanced nature of Gardner engines may have ‘helped’ with the ‘rock’ encountered, and was no doubt relieved that his strange experience wasn’t the result of someone putting something in his tea!
Brendan Smith
13/05/11 – 06:40
Eric, comments of the Perkins R6 running backwards reminded me. my Father had dodge trucks in the 1960!s which would run backwards you had to be quick to stop it, one way that did work for him was to put a load of rag up the exhaust pipe to starve it of air. I am now a retired auto engineer. Just looked at my niece’s Renault 1.9 turbo diesel wrecked engine, speed went to max no way could it be stopped. Mechanic said the turbo goes and it runs off the oil in the sump. I can understand that they say it is a common fault. I just wonder if like the Perkins the engines happen to run backwards. Mechanics may not now remember Perkins engines. Just a thought.
Clifford Warren (bunny)
14/05/11 – 07:32
Can be a couple of reasons why engines of the era of Happy Harold’s run away or run backwards. Firstly most engines of that era had oil bath air cleaners, if that was overfilled with oil the engine could draw the oil in with it’s charge of air and burn it as fuel. Or you cleaned the wire gauze in the filter with paraffin or petrol and forgot to substitute oil before you fired up the engine. I believe that the fuel pumps fitted to very early TS3’s had an inline fuel pump that had symmetrical lobes on its camshaft, the cam profile meant that the injector timing was the same in both directions so if the engine got to the point of stall it was feasible to ‘catch’ and run the other way. It is to be hope your inlet manifold melted with the exhaust gases before you reversed your tipper truck over the quarry edge isn’t it!.
Andrew
18/05/11 – 06:38
I remember riding on the top deck of “Happy Harold” when it was running off the overhead as a child in the late fifties and feeling somewhat nervous about the close proximity of everything above. It was nevertheless a memorable experience, and I also rode on it when in summer service soon after the TS2 engine was fitted, chosen because of its relatively quiet performance I recall so as not to detract too much from the experience of riding on a trolleybus. Although I felt a little safer upstairs with the poles no longer doing the job for which they were intended and the rasp of that engine made it clear it was no longer a trolleybus. However, it is still a joy to see it from time to time, and those who work on it to keep it operational are to be congratulated on their efforts. Interestingly I believe the vehicle is owned by Hastings Council which virtually takes its ownership status back to its pre M&D days.
Doug
18/05/11 – 10:17
Its most interesting to hear, Doug, that Happy Harold is owned by the Municipal Authority. It takes me back to my childhood and teenage holiday years, when there was a magical anomaly to the sleek and luxuriously appointed modern trolleybuses having the fleetname “Hastings Tramways Company.” Another delightful feature of the system was the modest humble description, on the destination blinds, of the majestic promenade of Hastings and St.Leonards as “FRONT.”
Chris Youhill
18/05/11 – 11:12
Indeed Chris. I was trying to think of some witty comment regarding the destination “Front” carried on the “front” of the bus. The only one I could come up with was Mitchell’s of Stornoway, some of whose dark blue Bedford SBs would show the destination “Back” (on the front!) – Back being a fairly large village, and terminus for one or two short workings on the route to North Tolsta.
Stephen Ford
08/06/11 – 09:45
I had experience of riding on vehicles with the Two Stroke engines both buses in the form of Maidstone and District’s ‘Contenders’ which were Harrington integral vehicles with Commer two stroke engines and on Northfleet U.D.C. Karrier refuse vehicles (of which two had such engines). The notable thing about the buses apart from the screaming noise already mentioned, was the vibration of the engine on tick over. Every seat in the Contenders used to vibrate when the vehicle was standing still with the engine running (incidentally Paragon Kits of Northampton do a nice 1/76 Resin kit of an M. & D. Contender. Despite the sounds and the vibration, the engines were very powerful and the Contenders had a good acceleration and hill climbing ability (from my recollection superior to the AEC Reliances which they worked alongside on M. & D. routes). The same was true of the refuse vehicles whose performance was far superior to the newer and smaller Perkins engined model.
Gordon Mackley
30/09/11 – 18:37
Stephen, reference your comments about destinations, the trolleybuses of Maidstone showed “LOOSE”, for such a wire bound vehicle it was indeed not the case! I credit the recollection of this to a book I cannot accurately recall, perhaps Trolleybus Trails by J. Joyce. Incidentally Happy Harold is still going strong thanks to the efforts of a small group and attends regularly events around the Hastings area.
Paul Baker
01/10/11 – 06:41
Referring to the Commer two stroke engine problems reminds me that in May 1963, our local coalman took deliver of a brand new Commer lorry (66 SHY) fitted with a TS2 engine. It was his first new purchase having relied on pre War Ford V8 petrol engined lorries which were by then falling apart with rust. The Commer looked splendid in bright red, black and gold but, misery began from almost the first day as it proved a real misery to start in the morning. Every day he ran the battery flat before resorting to the trusty old Ford being brought out to tow the Commer up and down the road until it eventually fired up after which in frustration he revved the poor thing to death! He sold it after only a year for a Thames Trader which ran “like a watch”!
Richard Leaman
26/02/12 – 16:02
It is not commonly known that the Rootes Group were developing a 4-cylinder version of the TS3, the TS4. It was scrapped when Chrysler took over, because it conflicted with a prior agreement with Cummins/Perkins. The TS4 engine, it is said, was far superior in most respects. A few examples survive, despite attempts to have them all destroyed, along with all other evidence. This story is to be found at this link: //www.commer.org.nz/ Another sad story, with an ending similar to that of the BAC’s TSR2 plane.
Chris Hebbron
27/02/12 – 13:47
If, like me, you are fascinated by Dodson bodies of this period, have a look at the same era for Wolverhampton Corporation. I only have books, so cannot submit photos, but they had variants of the Hastings open top Guys, with top covers, and with/without open/enclosed stairs, and also Guy CX motorbus versions with normal bonnets. An absolutely fascinating array of vintage shapes and sizes which were a “bit different”, even at the time!
John Whitaker
01/03/12 – 07:51
I remember Southdown’s Commer Avengers in the late 60’s and early 70’s I drove one of the Harrington bodied examples on a Sunday evening relief to London from Eastbourne in really heavy traffic a journey that took almost 4 hours to cover the 60 odd miles. After suitable refreshment the return journey, running empty at about 22.30, took about 1 3/4 hours with the engine thoroughly decoking itself at full throttle on the Caterham by-pass with what looked like a blowlamp for an exhaust with an impressive soundtrack.
Diesel Dave
01/03/12 – 09:17
I’ve never seen W’hampton Dodson’s, John and there are no photos of them on the web, but it is useful to know that they were somewhat similar to ‘Happy Harold’. The later Brighton ones were similar to the Tilling ST’s in London. Their finest hour was still the one produced for the Sunbeam Sikh and I know that you’re aware of that post. I wonder how Phil Dodson got on with his investigations? He’s not been back yet.
Another evocative, post, Dave, which brings to mind the expression, ‘Went like a rocket! Clearly the local constabulary wouldn’t have stood a chance of catching you up! Two-strokes usually had the repuation of being all noise and no go, but these wonderful engines were not in that league. I had one ride in a Commer lorry when hitch-hiking when in the RAF and was impressed.
Chris Hebbron
01/03/12 – 15:29
Chris, if you type “Guy Motors” into Google, a site comes up with the company history, and there are 2 or 3 photos of the 6 wheel era in Wolverhampton.
John Whitaker
09/04/12 – 06:56
Reverting to the stories of engines running backwards above, it is certainly not unknown for Gardners to do this. During my time at Crosville I recall we had a Scottish Bus Group coach which managed to do this on the quayside at Holyhead. As the governor doesn’t work in reverse, and apparently nobody could figure how to turn the fuel off in time, it literally “ran away” until it blew itself to bits -very expensive!
David Jones
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
02/01/13 – 15:41
Here are two views of Happy Harold operating on Hastings seafront in October 2012 during ‘Hastings Week’, an event to mark the anniversary of the Battle of Hastings with many events taking place.
London General Omnibus Company 1925 Dennis 4 ton Dodson O26/22RO
Pictured at South Croydon on the May 1972 HCVC London – Brighton rally is Dennis 4 ton XX 9591, D142 of 1925 with the almost inevitable Dodson O26/22RO bodywork. This bus has a complicated history that is detailed on the London Bus Museum website
Although a service was run by Charles Waymann in the Waltham Abbey area from 1920 to 1926, initially using a single decker and a double decker, both of the B type, and a Straker Squire double decker, the first “Pirate” bus in central London is generally credited as being the Leyland operated by Arthur George Partridge, which took to the road on 5 August 1922 under the trading name “Chocolate Express” (though only “Express” appeared on the body sides). The vehicle was a Leyland LB1 (i.e London Bus), a straight chassis vehicle developed from the heavier standard G7 model specifically to meet the stringent Metropolitan Police design requirements. There followed a flurry of activity in 1922 as other opportunist entrepreneurs entered the fray using a great variety of vehicle makes, but the Independents’ choice of double decker manufacture soon generally settled down to that between the Leyland LB (developed as the LB2, then LB4 and finally LB5) and the equally sturdy Dennis 4 tonner. The Dennis was a straight framed haulage chassis derived from the wartime “Subvention” or “Subsidy” type, of which over 7000 were produced in various wheelbases and weights between 1914 and 1918. A few single deck Dennis buses appeared on the London scene in 1922, but, to gain proper access to the lucrative London market, Dennis sought the acceptance of the 4 tonner by the Metropolitan Police as a passenger carrying double decker. Accordingly, the bus variant of the 4 ton model was modified for London in 1923 and emerged with the following specifications:- Wheelbase extended from 15ft 6ins to 15ft 10ins Larger front wheels from 720mm to 850mm Cone clutch, four speed sliding mesh gearbox, overhead worm rear axle (contemporary LGOC buses had 3 speed chain gearboxes – it would seem that, even way back then, AEC spur gearboxes were noisy and unacceptable to the Met). Body O26/22RO CAV lighting set The first 4 tonner for London operation was reported in Commercial Motor in August 1923 as being destined for Messrs W.H. Collins and Co. trading as A1 and painted chocolate brown. The engine, described below, was supplied by the White and Poppe factory in Coventry, set up in 1899 by Alfred White and Peter Poppe (pronounced ‘Popper’ – he was a Norwegian). This company became the main supplier of engines to Dennis who went on to purchase the Coventry firm in the post war recession of 1919. ‘T’ head side valve, 4 cylinder 115mm x 150mm = 6.232 litre, 40 -50 bhp This engine, stated in the 1923 report as being the power plant of the 4 ton bus, was a widely used and successful unit, 4591 examples being made up to the Dennis takeover in 1919, and it then continued in volume production until the late 1920s. This was certainly the standard engine of the 4 ton double decker. A modified version uprated to 70 bhp was fitted to Dennis’s first bespoke bus chassis, the E type of 1925.
Now comes the conundrum. The power unit of D142 is stated on sundry preservation pages to be an example of the Type D, with a capacity of 5.8 litres yielding 36 bhp. However, the Type D engine (derived from its precursor, the Type C manufactured from 1913) is listed in Dennis drawings as:- ‘L’ head side valve, 4 cylinder 110mm x 150 mm = 5.702 litre, 44 bhp Thus the alleged engine type of D142 is not consistent with the claimed capacity. The nearest White and Poppe engine of 5.8 litres was this 4 cylinder side valve, very unusual in a time of long stroke engines in being almost “square”, and thus probably intended for private car applications:- 120mm x 130mm = 5.881 litre, 40-50 bhp, but only 209 of this engine version were made before the Dennis takeover in 1919, and it does not appear in the Dennis list of engine drawings from that date, which indicates that it was not produced later. Unless the preserved vehicle has improbably received a very rare earlier type of White and Poppe engine, which is emphatically not the alleged Type D anyway, the 5.8 litre engine description must be considered doubtful. I believe the engine in D142 to be the standard 6.232 litre unit approved by the Metropolitan Police, but comments would be welcome.
London Transport 1930 AEC Regent 1 Tilling or Dodson (H27/25RO)
“John Whitaker was interested in Christopher Dodson bus bodies built for operators outside London and I mentioned that Tilling had purchased 30 Dodson-bodied AEC Regents for their Brighton operation. I’ve now found out that they were identical to the 191 AEC Regents they operated in South London, some with Tilling and some with Dodson bodies. In London, they were in the range ST837-1027. I attach a photo of the sole remaining example (ST 922 – GJ 2098), albeit it a London example, although Tilling’s livery was not that different from this example. To me, It looks odd because I only recall them with terrible body sag and this one doesn’t have it, having being completely restored! Once in London Transport’s hands, they were greatly unloved, but that’s another story!”
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
13/11/11 – 10:31
Many thanks Chris for the marvellous photo of GJ 2098. The 30 Tilling STs bodied by Dodson were built to Tilling design. Dodson design bodies were common in the “Pirate” fleets, and some Provincial municipal fleets too, notably Wolverhampton. The latter had many 6 wheel interpretations on Guy chassis and are worthy of an article in themselves! Many of these Tilling STs were transferred to other Tilling fleets during the war, and many were rebodied and/or re-engined. Of particular interest to me are the 3 vehicles lent to BCPT (Bradford) to enable the Stanningley tram route to be abandoned in 1942. These were GJ 2027, 2055, and GK 6242. These were accompanied by some Leeds “Regents” and 3 “General” STs. Pity I cannot remember them, but I was only 2! The body sag you refer to seems apparent on every photo I have seen, but they did “soldier on” in trying conditions. 3 more vehicles of this species are also close to my heart in the form of York-West Yorkshire ADG 1-3, which started life in the form depicted in your superb photograph. Incidentally, Wolverhampton 6 wheelers can be seen in the You Tube reference you gave on the recent post concerning the “White Heather” coach! Great Stuff!
John Whitaker
13/11/11 – 17:11
I’m sure that I’ve read somewhere that, of the later STL-type Tilling Regents which went to London Transport, still with three bay upstairs front windows, but inside staircases, a batch also also went to Brighton. Both deliveries had Tilling bodies, though. The above ST sub-class were due for withdrawal on the cusp of the war. They were all withdrawn by LT, along with all other petrol-engined vehicles, when war broke out. Several suffered from war damage and their chassis went to the Home Guard, either as armoured personnel carriers, others as complete vehicles, to become (Home) guard posts. Then they were spread around England/Wales to fill shortages. For example, ST844 spent time in Coventry, Walsall & Rhondda. ST851 went to Sunderland, then Bradford & Aberdare. The longest one away was ST1005, which left for Venture, Basingstoke in December 1941, not returning until January 1947. On return, it went into store for a few months, then was scrapped, a typical end for returnees. I’ve always had a soft spot for them, loyal, uncomplaining servants, past their sell-by date in 1939 and kept away from the limelight thereafter! Amazingly, some lasted until late 1949, nevertheless. They were strangers to Morden, Surrey, where I lived, but I can recall travelling on a couple of stalwarts seeing out their final, challenging, stint on the Epsom Races specials. I was a mere stripling aged 11, bunking off from school!
Chris Hebbron
25/11/11 – 13:28
I only ever saw one ST, and it was 922, mouldering in Rush Green Motors’ scrapyard somewhere out in the bundu between Hertford and Ware in 1952. Its roof gave it away over the dense scrub which rimmed the yard, for it could be just glimpsed from the top deck of a London Country RT. I made entry to the secure yard, somehow having persuaded the ruffians in their Nissen hut that I meant them no harm, (though I was quite tall for a nine-year old, and could have bruised their shins if it turned nasty). As I recall, the breakers had used ST 922 as a canteen. Its L.H. dumb-iron brass plate identified it as the very bus which Prince Marshall was to restore years later and put in to limited service in London. I kept a light bulb from its upper saloon for many years as a memento of that rare bus, the bulb, alas, now lost due to postwar parental determination to periodically cleanse bedrooms. There was a pre-war Leyland ‘decker there, too, ex-Chesterfield Corporation, from which I took a fine iron enamelled plate mounted forward of the driver, which admonished him to ‘Pull into the Curb at Stops’. I was even then taken by the cacography. In his obedience, our luckless chauffeur might have ‘Curbed his enthusiasm at stops’, or even ‘Stopped up on to the Kerb’! I wonder if his traffic manager was reduced to the ranks for a fine Solecism or merely scolded for Malapropism? But I digress. The info relating to the pilfering has been concealed until today, lest it had led to a period of infant incarceration, still then common, but I surmise that the Statute of Limitations now applies – and for that matter, all the other characters of the piece must now rejoice at The Great Terminus, their days of pointless litigation at an end.
Victor Brumby
28/05/12 – 08:11
In my post of 13/11/2011, I mentioned that I thought a batch of the later Tilling (LT STL type) also went to BH&D. I’ve since found that Thos. Tilling in Brighton had quite a few early vehicles, identical to those in the above photo. In the later 1930’s, a few of the STL type were also delivered, originally with the same three-window front upstairs configuration. See HERE: Post-war, BH&D modernised them, which included changing the three-window arrangement to the conventional two-window type.
Chris Hebbron
04/07/12 – 07:12
In my original comment, I mentioned that 30 of this type, with Dodson bodies, served in Brighton. Here is a photo of one. It is unusual in showing the upstairs air vent, normally unseen in photos.
Chris Hebbron
01/01/14 – 10:09
Several of these Brighton STs were later rebodied and eventually converted to open toppers. At least half a dozen later migrated to Westcliff (for the Southend seafront services) and Eastern National (for the Clacton services). I understand one eventually finished up as a tree lopper for Eastern National.
Brian Pask
17/09/14 – 15:24
Hi Chris.. Compliments on your photograph of 6201 and also your knowledge.
Sid
18/09/14 – 07:47
Thx, Sid, glad you enjoyed the posting.
Chris Hebbron
01/02/15 – 06:49
From September of 1951 to July of 1955 I commuted to school from Mill Hill to Kilburn. This was in the days of the trolley buses at least as far as Cricklewood Broadway. I cannot give the date but on the route 16 a green ST class bus suddenly appeared. It stayed around for a few weeks and then vanished again. Similarly on the route 79a a green STL appeared again for a short period. I don’t think either of the two buses made it to preservation but if anyone out there can confirm my sightings I would be very interested. The route 16 at the time was the preserve of the SRT Class and the 79a was all RTs. All something of a mystery
Ron Sargeant
01/02/15 – 11:00
There were plenty of Country Area green STL’s, both with front and rear entrances, and, by the period you mention, Ron, post-war RT’s were rendering plenty of the older vehicles spare. The last only went in 1955. The green ST is a mystery, since very few were ever painted green and spent their lives at Watford Garage. They were all disposed of by no later that 1950. However, LT was always short of lowbridge buses then and kept its lowbridge 1930 ST’s going until 1953, both at Watford and Godstone Garages, Some found their way to Morden at times, to keep the 127 red route going. It’s possible that it was one of them found its way around your way to fill a gap or be a learner in its final months. I believe that they were unique with LT in having a sunken gangway each side upstairs. Each one was also visually unique, having been ‘played about with’ in different ways at various overhauls!
Chris Hebbron
01/02/15 – 11:02
I have very happy memories indeed of a roundtrip on GJ 2098 when it was operating a vintage service starting in Trafalgar Square. I seem to recall that it was pretty spritely and comfortable – the seat cushions gave the impression of being a foot thick and were luxurious, and they seemed to accentuate delightfully the “up and down” movement of the suspension. the driver also handled the old bus very competently indeed – a very happy hour or so to recall.
Chris Youhill
02/02/15 – 06:43
Was the upholstery a sort of grey with black swirls on. I seem to recall that that was the LGOC colour scheme (if you can call grey a colour!). Or maybe it was the standard LT stripe patterning.
Chris Hebbron
02/02/15 – 06:47
The SRT class was an unequivocal disaster, comprising pre-war STLs expensively modified to accept heavier RT type bodywork for which RT chassis were still awaited. 300 were planned, but the nonsense finished after 160 had been constructed. With the 7.7 engine and vacuum brakes the SRT wouldn’t go and, more critically, it wouldn’t stop. The first of the class entered service in April 1949, and by mid 1954, the utter folly of the programme having finally been accepted, they were gone, apart from a handful retained as Chiswick toys. Perhaps the fleeting appearance of ST and STL vehicles was dictated by SRT mechanical failures.
Roger Cox
02/02/15 – 11:37
Chris H – Yes, I’m sure that you’re right about the seating upholstery, and that’s exactly the colour scheme I remember.
Roger – As a “distant” ardent admirer of the seemingly excellent “SRT” conversions I’m surprised to hear that they were as disastrous as seems widely claimed, although I have read of this elsewhere too. I thought that the plan was an ingenious one and sensible too but of course I had no experience of driving them and only a limited number of rides. I must say though that I’m amazed that their speed and more importantly presumably acceleration were so poor, but only to be expected by comparison with the magnificent 9.6 litre RTs. Braking, well the vast difference between vacuum brakes and air is no secret, and different driving techniques and “expectations” are essential. I would imagine though that some kind of semi rural and light operation would have found them quite satisfactory. From an enthusiast point of view though their acoustics were a delight and the different “era” instantly apparent – and the fascinating combination of older machinery with the beautiful RT bodies made the SRTs for me a very memorable version.
Chris Youhill
03/02/15 – 05:46
Chris, as you indicate, the theory behind the SRT class appeared, on the surface, to make sense, as RT type bodywork deliveries were outstripping RT/RTL chassis supplies. Although the life extended elderly pre war fleets of ST and LT machines were largely gone by 1948, LT wanted to clear out the utilities and remaining STLs as quickly as possible to project the high quality, post war LTE image to the capital’s travelling public. The SRT seemed to meet the bill. It looked the part, and the ordinary traveller surely wouldn’t suspect that the mechanical bits under the new, modern bodywork belonged to an earlier engineering era and were upwards of ten years old. Sadly, converting STL chassis to take the half ton heavier RT body proved to be far more complicated, and hence much more costly, than anticipated. The chassis had to be remodelled quite considerably, and major components, such as the fuel tank, had to be re-sited. The result was a bus that looked very good, but performed very poorly, particularly in the braking department. The AEC 7.7 was a perfectly sound engine, but it didn’t have the decisive low speed torque of the comparable 7 litre Gardner 5LW which was still the favoured power plant for many new Bristols in the Tilling companies’ fleets. I should think that the less than lively performance could have been tolerated; the real difficulty lay with the brakes, which proved barely adequate on downhill gradients when an SRT was well loaded. There must have been rather more to the braking problem than simply the vacuum system. We have both driven heavy, vacuum braked double deckers around the Yorkshire gradients without too many frights. The Halifax Daimler CVL6/Roe ‘deckers were pretty heavy beasts, 8 tons unladen, but they stopped equally as efficiently as the air braked PD3s – as you know, the hills round Halifax make most of urban London look like a billiard table. I can only assume, since I can’t find any figures to support this, that the lining areas of the old STL brakes were rather smaller than those of post war double deckers generally. In the event, the SRTs were taken off routes that included any suggestion of a slope and relegated to flat territory. The word got around, and the Country department apparently refused to have any involvement with the things. In the meantime, RT and RTL chassis production came on stream, and the SRT class quickly surrendered its RT bodywork to new chassis and the STL underparts to the scrapyard. Your comment about bus acoustics resonates, I’m sure, with many members of OBP. As a child up to the age of four I delighted in the contrasting sounds emitted by LT, STL and RT types in Selsdon and Croydon, and, from that age onwards, having by then moved to rural Kent, I became captivated by the marvellous melody emitted by the Maidstone and District Leyland TS8 Tigers as they climbed Chequers Hill out of Doddington. By contrast, the petrol Tigers running along the valley just purred along. In Faversham, one could find East Kent Dennis Lancets (pre war, four cylinder jobs I later discovered) with smooth running, drumming sound engines. From 1949, by now an eight year old resident in Alverstoke near Gosport, I couldn’t initially understand why the Provincial AEC Regents sounded so dramatically different from their London cousins, and became a fan instead of the stuttering new Guy Arabs on the Haslar route. Only later did I discover that these fine buses had peculiar five cylinder engines. I am rambling on a bit now. I’d better stop.
Roger Cox
04/02/15 – 05:41
There was another part of the jigsaw to add to Roger’s tale and which makes the STL/SRT saga slightly more logical. LT’s 1935-40 New Works Plan exceeded the legal limit that AEC/Chiswick could legally order/produce and so outside suppliers were used . A good example was the 100 all-Leyland STD class; pseudo-STL’s. Another case was 175 STL chassis, but with Park Royal metal-framed bodies, which were already failing in 1942, when the worst bodies were scrapped and replaced by new lowbridge STL bodies under special dispensation. The rest were all but held together with strapping, post-war, and the idea was that the 15STL16 1939 STL’s would have their bodies transferred to replace the PRV bodies and be re-bodied with the RT ones. The 1939 STL’s should have been RT’s, but production was not ready in time. Nevertheless, many RT features were incorporated into these chassis, including automatic chassis lubrication, but, crucially, not the 9.6 litre engine, not quite ready for service. Thus, of the 132 of STL’s finest, very few survived in their original form and they, if memory serves, were Country Area vehicles, no doubt held onto for dear life!
Chris Hebbron
04/02/15 – 09:59
Please Roger, don’t even think of pleading “rambling on” – that post was full of absorbing and informed comment and opinion and is fascinating to read. So, in summary and the famous hindsight, it seems that the SRT scheme was a brave and expectedly fraught. venture which ought to have succeeded but was beset with undeserved problems and expense. You are quite right about the mountains of West Yorkshire and the greater area and I suppose we drivers thought little of nothing of such terrain as most of the elderly and basic vehicles of the time did their commendable best. The only real braking worries with the old vacuum system that I recall were occasionally with certain Leyland PD2s (but not PD1s) of both 7’6″ and 8’00″ girth – and even, with later employers, air braked PD3s, but that’s obviously another discussion altogether. I hope my memory and imagination aren’t running riot, but I’m sure I recall that when the 34 RTs arrived at Samuel Ledgard and were being prepared for service there was an issue with the brake drums/shoes. Was it the case that the RTs, as opposed to Mark 3 Regents in general, had more robust brakes – hence the London drivers’ meaningful objection to the SRTs. I believe that Ledgard fitters mentioned to me that the drums (front at least) were of a slightly larger diameter than standard and that “shims” (possibly hardwood ??) had to be inserted between the new linings and the shoes to give satisfactory results. This was of course fifty two years ago and if I’m way off the mark I’ll gladly blush and hide for as long as necessary.
Chris Youhill
18/03/18 – 06:56
During the mid to late 1940s the 77A route, which I took from Wimbledon to Wimbledon Park (to school) or to Wimbledon Chase (to visit my grandmother) had several “odd” buses. As kids, we were thrilled when the occasional coach came along as this seemed to us to be travelling in luxury. However, the most exciting was when our bus had a staircase that was outside the bus. As young boys we, of course, always rode upstairs. Which reminds me – the conductors often referred to the upstairs as “outside”. I only remember being on an outside stair bus on two or three occasions, probably in 1948, 49 or possibly 1950.
David
19/03/18 – 06:26
Referring to David’s mention of “outside”, conductors in Ashton under Lyne and Manchester guards up until the late 1960s used to have phrases such as “on top” and “inside” when designating the upper and lower decks.
Phil Blinkhorn
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/04/19 – 07:29
As a schoolboy (1944-1950), I was fortunate enough to travel at 08:13 a.m. every week-day morning from Chandler’s Ford (between Southampton and Winchester in Hampshire) to Winchester on one of these marvellous ‘open staircase’ old ladies … it was one of, I think, 5, but possibly more, on ‘loan’ to Hants & Dorset … the actual vehicle I suspect was ST845 (GJ 2021), known to have been with Hants & Dorset from 1945 to 1947 … these buses were used by the Southampton Depot of Hants & Dorset, at least, as ‘relief’ buses on high density routes, as well as ‘works’ buses transporting workers to and from factories, such as Vickers Armstrong at Hursley
Doug Clews
23/04/19 – 07:28
These Tilling ST’s had rather weak bodies and were on the cusp of being withdrawn when the war broke out. Many of them were lent out all over the place during the war and many didn’t return to London Transport until 1947, usually to be scrapped straight away, such was their decrepitude by that stage. The Greater Portsmouth/Southampton area was one of several bus hotspots where buses were drafted in to cater for the increase in passengers, to supplement the shortage. In latter years, they were renowned for their very obvious waistline body sag, not evident in the two above photos, one rebuilt and the other still fairly new.!
