Lewis Meridian – Sentinel SLC/6/30 – PXE 761

Lewis Meridian - Sentinel SLC/6/30 - PXE 61
Copyright Pete Davies

Lewis Meridian
1955
Sentinel SLC/6/30
DupleC41C

PXE7 61 is a Sentinel SLC/6/30, built in 1955. She has a Duple body (C41C when new to Lewis Meridian of Greenwich) but the bodywork has been altered in this view. We see her parked at East Boldre, near Beaulieu, on 13 April 1986, having been converted to a racing car transporter for Giron Alvis Racing. The PSVC listing for 2012 shows her to be in the care of Spiers, Henley On Thames.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


29/03/13 – 07:04

The OBP’s authority on Sentinels is Neville Mercer, the joint author of the excellent book on this marque in the Super Prestige series. I hesitate to preempt any comment he might wish to make, particularly since my information source is that comprehensive book, so I will simply say that the correct registration of this coach is PXE 761.

Roger Cox

Thanks for that Roger copy changed.


30/03/13 – 10:07

Oh how I wish that I had come across a SLC/6/30 coach. Many smaller firms fail because they deserve to – not being up to the standard of other products – but not all. Foden successfully made the transition to diesels and only "failed" when PACCAR consolidated them with Leyland and DAF. [They gave up rather earlier on PSVs.] Sentinel, another major steam manufacturer, pioneered horizontal diesels based on that steam technology but then seemed to give up. Their sale to Rolls Royce means that there is a direct link with Rolls Royce Eagle diesels and ultimately the Perkins units in modern DMUs. How I mourn the passing of AEC, Bristol and Leyland but, had things turned out differently, what would the 2013 model year Sentinel have been like?

David Oldfield


30/03/13 – 12:00

I can’t really add anything, I’m afraid, beyond what is in the book. Does anybody have a recent sighting of this vehicle "face to face"? The last I heard the owner was planning to restore the bodywork to its original condition. Going off at a slight tangent, Spiers seemed to have a taste for the unusual having once operated one of the two Rutland Clipper/Whitson coaches built in the mid-1950s. What a pity that the Clipper hasn’t survived!

Neville Mercer


31/03/13 – 07:46

Way (way) back in time, when I was an active cross country runner at Blackheath Harriers, I noted, on several occasions, the arrival of a Lewis Sentinel at the Hayes BH clubhouse with visiting teams. This coach could well have been one of these. Unfortunately, I never had a camera with me at the time. Sentinel suffered from the choice of a poor engine design, and then fitted it somewhat less than securely in the vehicle. I understand that the indirect injection Ricardo engine was actually quite an old design that had been languishing in Harry Ricardo’s filing cabinet from pre war days. Perhaps Neville can add some information on this point. The Sentinel concept of both the haulage and passenger vehicles was advanced in the early post war period, and it is sad, in retrospect, that the power unit proved to be so weak and fuel thirsty. It is surprising, also, that very few attempts were made by operators to re-engine their Sentinels with other, more reliable motors. In the late 1940s, few alternative underfloor engines would have been available, but this situation had changed by the early ’50s. The Sentinel was yet another British "might have been". Neville’s comment on the Rutland Clipper is echoed by me. As a Croydonian, I saw one of these – the second one I believe – in the Purley Way area of Croydon quite often.

Roger Cox


15/10/13 – 12:04

Sorry for the belated response, Roger, I’ve only just noticed your posting on this thread. As regards the re-engining of Sentinels, Midland Red installed one of their own BMMO engines in at least one (possibly both?) of the STC6s acquired from Boyer of Rothley, while at least two of the SLC6s exported to Portugal received Leyland engines later in their lives. The Ricardo designed engines (with the Comet injectors) were indeed quite old-fashioned in post-war terms, and drank fuel like it was going out of style. On the positive side they were probably among the quietest diesel engines ever made. Sentinel compounded the problem of high fuel consumption by fitting the engines in completely inadequate mountings, resulting in the "European" demonstrator dropping its engine while on test with a major Dutch sales target. Needless to say no order was forthcoming!

Neville Mercer


27/10/14 – 06:24

Lewis travel owned 3 Sentinels, all Duple Elizabethans. They were OXT 23, OXT 24 and PXE 761

Thomas Lewis

White Heather – LGOC CC Class – GF 7254 – 12 (ex LT 1000)

GF 7524_lr
Copyright D A Jones

White Heather
1930
LGOC CC Class with Meadows Engine
Duple C??C

When Chris Youhill posted his Daimler/Brush Hybrid HGF 948, it made me search out another such vehicle.
Although LGOC’s associate, AEC, had designed the AEC Renown chassis and they had gone into service in 1929 as the LT class, LGOC decided to do its own thing and designed the experimental CC chassis (double deck) and; CB chassis (single deck). Six of each were planned for the experiment, but, of the CC chassis, only four were built. The first two had bodies like LT’s, but not quite, especially in respect of having a primitive cab totally open to the elements! The latter two had superficially standard LT bodies. Keeping well away from AEC, LGOC gave them Meadows engines, with radiators looking like stretched versions of the Leyland TD1 radiator.
LT1000 went into service in 1930, was re-engined by AEC in 1933, and again in 1938, together with AEC transmission, and was finally withdrawn in May 1939, being quickly snapped up by White Heather of Southsea, who re-bodied as a coach straight away, bodybuilder unknown.
The photo shows it in full splendour, parked in Francis Street, just off Vauxhall Bridge Road. Notice it sports an EIIR plaque above the windscreen centre, dating it to 1953 or a little later. Certainly, the coach was still with White Heather in September 1954. Who would turn down the chance of a mystery tour with this beauty?
Of the four vehicles, amazingly, two of the others survived after being sold by London Transport, both going to Billy Smart’s Circus and lasting to 1948, one then going on to another owner before being scrapped.
Knowing how notoriously conservative bus operators are, one wonders how such non-standard chassis came to be bought second-hand and how they were kept running for so long. Two of the four actually remained in service longer than their LT cousins!
I can’t trace the body builder, but my thoughts are that the area above the windscreen (destination blind, WHITE HEATHER motif and vent where the EIIR plaque is placed) is quite like Duple bodies of that time. Does anyone else know?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron (acknowledging the website Ian’s Bus Stop for some information).


15/05/11 – 07:24

The front destination indicators are Plaxton shaped, as is the rear end. (Half-cab late forties/early fifties era.) These are observations, not knowledge after the fact.

David Oldfield


white heather header

15/05/11 – 17:56

I’m sure you may well be right David – the E11R emblem is mounted on what appears to be Plaxton’s standard circular air intake for full front coaches of that period.

Chris Youhill


16/05/11 – 09:19

No, Chris Hebbrons Duple guess was correct. There is quite a lot of information about this body in Alan Townsin’s book "Duple – 70 years of coachbuilding". It was originally exhibited at the 1937 Commercial Motor Show atop a remarkable Tilling Stevens prototype six-wheel underfloor-engined (flat eight diesel) chassis called the Successor. Nothing more was heard of the Tilling Stevens project, but the body, after extensive modifications, was re-used by White Heather postwar.
There is also a photo in the book of a Wakefields 1938 Leyland TS8 with exactly the same layout of indicator apertures and air intake vent, but this only serves to show the amazing variety of bodywork being produced by Duple at that time, as other contemporary examples had totally different layouts.

Peter Williamson


17/05/11 – 11:08B&C

After Peter, W’s interesting posting and revelation that the body was built by Duple and was originally fitted to the Tilling-Stevens Successor, I found a photo of the original vehicle, as published on the front page of Bus & Coach magazine for December 1937 (just one month after I was born, in fact!).
It is useful in showing a nearside view and the fact that, if unaltered in this respect, it had a centre-entrance door. Certainly, the body must have undergone extensive alteration, not least because the Successor had an underfloor engine, but the CC Class had a front engine.
The story is far more interesting than I ever realized! And it is fascinating the way we contributors feed off each other, too.

Chris Hebbron


18/05/11 – 10:12

Many thanks Chris H and Peter for an authoritative answer to a tantalising question – and what another gem of a fascinating vehicle this was.

Chris Youhill


18/05/11 – 22:00

As Chris H says, what an amazing parallel with Ledgards HGF 948!

Chris Barker


19/05/11 – 06:42

Yes, a fascinating parallel activity between this White Heather coach, and the Ledgard vehicle referred to on another contribution. It is perhaps even more remarkable because it might be said that Ledgards had a reputation and expertise for such a conversion, whereas White Heather seemed to be just an ordinary local coach operator in Southsea. But see below – the conversion wasn’t by them!
White Heather Transport Ltd was acquired by Basil Williams of Hants and Sussex fame in 1977 (although his main operations were known as Southern Motorways by that time). The PSV Circle produced a fleet list (ref PK14, dated March 1986), which includes the vehicles of acquired and associated companies, and also those owned by acquired companies but disposed of before Basil Williams was involved.
This records one Bedford OB new to White Heather in 1947, recorded with a White Heather C25F body (4, DBK 944), but this is the only one listed with such a body. A note indicates that the body framing came from a Leyland Cub (unspecified). So perhaps there was some ingenuity and workshop capacity, but it didn’t apply to the LGOC vehicle. The Bedford was sold in 1953 to a Southampton company, last licensed in 1963. On examining the PSV fleet list, the conversion of the LGOC CC vehicle was not carried out by White Heather, but by a dealer following it’s sale by London Transport, and before White Heather purchased it.

Michael Hampton


20/05/11 – 06:57

Thank you, Michael, for the your research and additional information. Whatever dealer modified the body, they must have had extensive skills, for, like the Maudslay/Daimler body conversion, the Duple bodywork would have been extensively modified to cater for the engine/front axle being further forward. And, as with Ledgards HGF 948, the original vehicle looked more attractive.
I didn’t know about WH being purchased by Basil Williams. The only other Southsea coach tour operator I recall was Byngs. Are they still around or what?

Chris Hebbron


21/05/11 – 00:24

Chris, further to the info that was included, the dealer who bought the LGOC CC in Aug 1939 was Mitchell’s of London SW12. Presumably they also bought the TSM Successor/Duple coach show vehicle at a similar time, as it never entered service after being exhibited at the 1938 Motor Show. The conversion must have taken some time, or was perhaps hampered by the war years (supply or staff shortages?), as the next operator is Fountains of Twickenham in Apr 1946. It then passed to Bluebird of Portland in June 1947, and to White Heather, Southsea in July 1949. They kept it for a creditable eight years, selling it in July 1957. It’s PSV days were over, as the PSVC record states, "unknown owner, Bosham (Sussex)" as a caravan. Finally it went for scrap to Bosham dealer Sullivan in April 1961.
My own interest in buses/coaches began in the autumn of 1958, so I never knowingly saw this coach creation. White Heather had fairly standard Bedford SB / Duple coaches by this time.

Michael Hampton


21/05/11 – 08:25

Chris, I can recall several local coach firms from the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, unfortunately none of these are now in existence.
Byng’s was one of the major operators, with an attractive blue livery and a modern fleet. There was also Southsea Royal Blue, which carried similar (or the same?) livery by c.1962. Southsea Royal Blue was also acquired by Basil Williams’ Hants and Sussex c. 1947, but was sold on when the H&S group ran into difficulties in the mid 1950’s. Another local company was Don’s, which had a pleasant yellow livery (with brown trim?), which I think started c. 1923. Neither Byng’s or Don’s had any connection with Basil Williams.
But by c.1960 each of these three companies were owned by a Lancashire group, whose name I cannot now recall, but may have been Blackburn based. This meant that similar vehicles were operated by each company, and the style of fleet-name script was the same.
As mentioned previously, White Heather was another local company, again independent until Basil Williams purchased it in 1977. This name has now disappeared from the local scene, as Hants and Sussex / Southern Motorways as a whole.
There was also an associated Victoria Coaches (which I think usually only had one coach), but there was a family connection which kept this firm alive.
Triumph Coaches was another company bought up by Basil Williams, again in 1947, and they specialised in Forces work. Again this was sold on in the 1950’s, and ended up as a subsidiary of Southdown for several years. As a result, the fleet I remember was always standard Southdown stock (initially Beadle-bodied Tiger Cubs) painted blue and cream instead of Southdown green, and with Southdown series fleet numbers prefixed with a "T". The later stock included 36 foot Leopards with rare Weymann Castillian bodies. Eventually, the Triumph name fell into disuse with the changing needs of the times.
Other names seen locally were Hutfields of Gosport, Glider of Fareham (Glider also spent a time in Basil William’s ownership), Meatyard’s of Portchester, and Shotters of Isle of Wight. I suspect that Shotters had an outstation in Portsmouth, as some school trips I went on used a Shotters coach.
All of these were around in the late 1950’s to mid/late 1960’s. I’m afraid I rather took them for granted! None of these fleetnames now appear. The main names today are Luckett’s (Fareham) and Vision Travel. They use fine modern vehicles, but are rather outside the scope of this web-site!
Hope these names bring back memories for some of you.

Michael Hampton


22/05/11 – 08:31

I often notice pictures of the Portsmouth coach operators as they have Oldham (BU) registrations. This was a result of being supplied through Oldham-based dealers Lancashire Motor Traders. The Blackburn connection would explain why this was so.

David Beilby


Wow, Michael, my simple question produced such a wealth of information and memories of my time in Pompey from 1956 to 1976, although I’d holidayed there from 1950.

Canoe Lake - circa 1965

Your comments reminded me of one of several Portsmouth & Southsea postcards I possess (J Arthur Dixon – remember them!), one of which shows the place where all the coaches parked along the seafront, by the small kiosks and associated ‘A’ boards placed to tempt holidaymakers for all sorts of day-trip destinations and, of course, mystery tours! I note the trolleybus poles are still in situ, but the wires are not, so I’d date the photo to 1964-1966.
By magnifying it in Picasa, I’ve identified, from left to right, the rear coach as White Heather’s Bedford SB/Harrington, Byng’s Bedford SB/Duple, Southsea Royal Blue’s Bedford VAL14/Plaxton and the rear (I think, from your colour description) of Don’s Bedford SB/Plaxton. I think I’ve got them all right I only recalled Triumph after I’d submitted my first piece, and did recall that Southdown had bought them out, because of their obvious Southdown-style coaches, in Triumph livery, which appeared after takeover. Ironically, they are missing in the photo.
In the foreground is one of the four Portsmouth Corporation 1935 Leyland TD4’s with English Electric bodies, plying its trade on the Sea Front Service between Clarence Pier and Hayling Ferry. As you say, all gone, as have all the breweries that once served Pompey, which, being a naval port, meant that there were many. Within half a mile of my house, near the Marine Barracks, I once counted some 12 or so, with half that number of breweries represented! But this is WELL outside the scope of this website!!

Chris Hebbron


22/05/11 – 11:47

A distant memory from 1963 when I did Isle of Wight tours for Wallace Arnold. There was on the Island a very smart coach firm by the name of Crinage’s with a delightful cream and maroon livery – they used to do the "included" island excursions for WA.

Chris Youhill


23/05/11 – 07:34

Well-remembered, Chris Y.
Crinage’s and Fountain Coaches were the coaching arms of Southern Vectis, although they’d existed as stand-alone companies before takeover. I don’t think SV’s policy was to come to the mainland, though.

Chris Hebbron


24/05/11 – 07:47

That’s amazing Chris H – I never imagined that either of those two excellent Island operators would have any connection with SV – they were both splendid undertakings who kept up immaculate appearances and conveyed the passengers round that beautiful area in complete satisfaction.

Chris Youhill


24/05/11 – 12:28

After I got married, in the early ’60’s, (my wife not coming from Pompey) and I, for a Grand Day Out, would get the ferry (sometimes paddle) across to the IoW, then the steam train from Ryde to Ventnor. On one occasion, we got the now preserved 1939 Southern Vectis Bristol K5G/ECW. We had to sit in the front nearside seat for the journey. OMG, the noise and vibration! Never having really penetrated Bristol-land, and having experienced London’s pre-war RT’s and others of even earlier vintage which were far quieter and near vibration-free, the ride put me off Bristols for years! I warmed to them later.

Chris Hebbron


24/05/11 – 20:07

It was good to see the J. Arthur Dixon postcard – yes Southsea as it ought to be remembered! I certainly agree the front coach party in the picture is one of Don’s coaches.
I had quite forgotten that some of Byngs and Southsea Royal Blue’s coaches were registered in Oldham in that period. This prompted a hazy memory that two were CBU 704C / CBU 705C. But this could be a false memory, and I have no idea of chassis/body make.
I do remember White Heather’s OBK 242, a Bedford SB/Duple with the butterfly wing grille. This is confirmed by the Hants and Sussex fleet book I referred to earlier.
I also remember that Don had 50 ABK. I think this was also a Bedford SB, but not sure about the body make. This is likely to have been the first PSV with a reversed Portsmouth registration, and would have been arrived late 1962 / early 1963.
I didn’t often visit the Isle of Wight in the sixties, so my memories are of standard lowbridge K-types and Lodekkas. But there was Seaview Motor Services with their two Leyland PD2s in the outstanding red/green livery, one of which was replaced by a Bedford VAL. One of my first colour photos was of this VAL, but the Brownie box or the film used didn’t reproduce the colours very accurately!

Michael Hampton


25/05/11 – 16:42

You may have been disappointed by YOUR photo of the Seaview Services Bedford VAL, but here is one of it in all its glory in August 1979. It really is very smart, not only in its design simplicity (and someone has said that it is a Duple Midland (Willowbrook)body) but also the livery. I never saw the vehicle, only the Leylands. It would be lovely if it had been preserved. It deserved to be. See this Link 

Chris Hebbron


26/05/11 – 07:34

That’s better – (certainly better than my box brownie shot). As you say, shown in all it’s glory. With it’s "B"-reg (1964) and 1979 dated photo, it’s very smart as a 14 year old. Seaview MS must have taken great care of it. I have always read or heard the body described as Willowbrook. (I think Duple (Midland) was originally Nudd Bros and Lockyer which Duple took over, then re-named).

Michael Hampton


27/05/11 – 08:40

Lovely picture of a fine vehicle and, as a bonus, a sample of the legendary Southern Vectis – one can almost sniff the sea air from The Solent !!
In my view the Bedford VAL was a magical vehicle which was a delight for the enthusiast to drive – especially the very first ones where the gearbox positions were arranged like a "solve it if you can" puzzle and the two handbrakes often caught out the uninitiated. Superb suspension, acceptable performance, and a creditable impersonation of prewar Leyland gearbox tones were extra attractions.

Chris Youhill


29/05/11 – 07:09

Duple did indeed acquire Nudd Bros & Lockyer of Kegworth and rename it as "Duple Midland". A few years later (in 1958) they also acquired Willowbrook and the Duple Midland operation also moved to Loughborough. The official policy after production of the Donington body ended in late 1962 was that all double-deckers and all single-deckers on "heavyweight" chassis were badged as Willowbrook products while Bedford and Ford chassis were labelled as Duple Midland.
However… there are many cases where lightweight chassis actually received Willowbrook badging. Some have suggested that these anomalies were merely errors on the production line (BET style bodies on heavyweight chassis and "001" bodies on Bedfords and Fords were assembled in the same building after 1962), but there seem to be too many "errors" for this to be true. I suspect that some customers specifically requested the Willowbrook badging, or that "Wk" badges were applied if they temporarily exhausted the supply of Duple Midland ones!
Does anybody have a definitive answer on this?

Neville Mercer


29/05/11 – 17:45

This question of Duple (Nudd) etc is an interesting one. Were Nudd’s bus bodybuilders, for I have never heard of a Nudd/Lockyer bus body!

Chris Hebbron


30/05/11 – 06:27

According to Alan Townsin’s Duple book, the main thrust of the Nudd/Lockyer operation immediately prior to the takeover was the rebuilding of pre-war bus bodies. This often amounted to a new body in practice, but not officially so. Midland Red was a major customer.

Peter Williamson


31/05/11 – 11:30

Thank you, Peter.

Chris Hebbron


12/06/11 – 21:35

on 24/5 Michael Hampton commented about the Byngs/Dons having BU registrations. This was because Byngd/Don/Southsea Royal Blue were OWNED by Lancashire Motor Traders from 1960/1 until the end of 1971. CBU 704/5C were not Byngs, Dons or SRB, and 50 ABK whilst it was intended for Don and registered in Portsmouth never came to Portsmouth as it was delivered instead to Bere Regis & District. LMT also owned Ivory Coaches of Tetbury which is why their coaches could be found doing Byngs excursions during the summer.

Paul Statham


14/06/11 – 08:40

Thanks to Paul Statham for your additional comments on Dons/Byngs/SRB and their ownership in the 1960’s. As I suspected my memory of those registered CBU704/705C is probably false. However I do remember quite specifically 50 ABK running locally in Don’s livery for a time when new. Was it delivered to Bere Regis in Don’s livery? Was it then loaned to Don’s to help out at a busy time?
Just a further comment on Peter Williamson’s comment (30/5) on Nudd Bros & Lockyer. I agree with his statement about their work for Midland Red.
I also had a feeling that a small quantity of Southdown’s Leyland Tiger Cubs were bodied by NB&L. This would be some (all?) of the 620-639 batch of 1953/54. Looking back at good old Ian Allan ABC’s, the 2nd and 4th editions of 1 – South-eastern area just state "Duple". The 5th (1963) edition states "Duple Midland" – so presumably were built at Loughborough, not Hendon. So this may be why some have attributed this work to Nudd Bros and Lockyer, although I cannot trace which fleetlist has that information.
The Southdown Enthusiasts Club are publishing a series of books of complete vehicle histories. Unfortunately, the batch concerned is likely to be in the next to appear! It will be interesting to see how a modern publication describes them. Perhaps at the time those "in the know" described them as "Nudd Bros & Locker", while officially Duple wanted to highlight it’s own name as "Duple (Midland)".

Michael Hampton


28/06/11 – 06:35

Further on LT 1000. The complete vehicle with original LGOC body was still extant in 1943. The late John H Price was one of the reliable bus reporters at the time who reported seeing LT 1000 owned by Pickfords (the removal people). It was based at Willow Walk (London S.E) in 1943, painted grey The roof, part of the upper deck and rear end had been removed. Thus the original chassis could not have been fitted with the coach body in the 1939. I saw the CC body without the chassis in a scrapyard in Mitcham around about 1945/6 still in the grey livery.

Alan Cross


29/06/11 – 07:02

Thx, Alan, for supplying information which fills in the wartime peregrinations of the vehicle. Incidentally, I’d like to record my enjoyment of your photos and publications over the years. You were everywhere, in all weathers, truly possessing the stamina of an ox! And how many Box Brownies did you get through??

Chris Hebbron


01/07/11 – 05:31

Many thanks to Alan Cross for clarifying the war-time use of LT1000. I have checked again the text in the Hants & Sussex PSVC/OS history I drew my contribution from. This states that it went to Mitchell (dealer) London SW12, 8/39. It then lists the body transfer (undated), and the next reference is that the modified vehicle went to Fountain Coaches, Twickenham in 4/46 (then as described in my earlier contribution, going to White Heather in 7/49).
The fleet history has no mention of it’s wartime activities, and I wrongly assumed (sorry!) it was out of use for the whole wartime period. Presumably Pickfords purchased or hired it from Mitchells the London dealer? It also raises the question of who carried out the body transfer and when? (But clearly after 1943, and by c.1945/46). It also raises the question as to the whereabouts of the Duple body (and the TSM Successor chassis) after 1938 until the transfer to LT1000. Did this vehicle survive complete but unused after the 1938 show until post-1943, or were body and chassis split before the conversion to LT1000? Maybe someone out there has further information on this.
I’ll add my thanks to Alan Cross for his many photos seen in innumerable publications over the years, such a good contribution to our hobby.

Michael Hampton


11/11/11 – 07:38

This unique vehicle is recorded for posterity on movie film. Go to 04:32mins at this link: //www.youtube.com/ and you can see it turning slowly (complete with whine) from the seafront (where the coaches are shown on the above postcard) onto St. Helen’s Parade, Southsea. It look impeccable!

Chris Hebbron


13/06/12 – 08:30

I saw the White Heather coaches on my early visits to Southsea, late 1960’s and early 1970’s, but I had no idea until finding this entry that they were part of the Basil Williams empire.
Hants & Sussex is mentioned in its own right, in the column on the left, and above. Is there/should there be some sort of link for cross referencing?
Southampton Citybus, at or about the time First took them over, acquired Hants & Sussex. According to one of the then directors of Citybus, almost all the acquired fleet were sent straight away to the local scrapper, being replaced by the Atlantean Sprints (double deck Atlanteans given new East Lancs single deck bodies, if you didn’t know already). In the director’s words, "When you’re used to having a blind donkey with no legs, getting a blind donkey with one leg is a vast improvement." Was he being too harsh?
Sorry, Paul S, my browser doesn’t want to find your website.

Pete Davies


06/08/12 – 11:47

Re: Byngs, Don, SRB, LMT et al.
Like my friend Paul Statham (see above) I have studied the history of these Portsmouth coaching concerns, and tend to agree with his remarks concerning 50 ABK, which was certainly intended for the Don fleet for the 1962 season. However, as parent company LMT was a dealer, it was alleged that every coach in the fleets was for sale, and that they could disappear at any time. In the case of 50 ABK this certainly happened at the beginning of the 1962 season, and so it may have arrived in Southsea in Don livery, and it may have even run for a few days as a Don vehicle, but until now this has never been substantiated. PSV Circle records do, however, record the coach as being delivered new to Bere Regis, so the mystery remains!
1962 was the first season that Don was supplied with new coaches by LMT. The operating fleet for the previous season was seven, and with six new coaches including 50 ABK allocated for 1962, one existing coach SB3 UTP 422 was retained. With the disappearance of 50 ABK only six coaches ran in Don livery for 1962. Ironically, UTP 422 was sold to Bere Regis the following year! Fleet strength returned to seven for the 1963 season.

Philip Lamb


08/08/12 – 12:05

Many thanks to both Philip and Paul for their comments on 50 ABK. Possibly I saw it on a BR&D excursion to Southsea, and drew the wrong conclusions. Wasn’t there also a Don coach registered 850 ABK? If so, that would feed into the confused memories of that era – all notes I made sadly consigned to a bin long ago!
Incidentally, in a slightly earlier era, Hants and Sussex bought several Leyland PS1/1’s with Duple coach bodywork in 1947/48. About six of these, plus a Bedford OB/Duple were sold to BR&D after only a year with H&S. They lasted in Dorset until 1960/61, according to the PSVC Hants and Sussex list. It’s an interesting parallel in on going connections between some of these firms, even though there was no official business connection between BR&D and any of the Southsea operators covered here.

Michael Hampton


10/08/12 – 07:09

Michael: 850 ABK is a Duple Britannia-bodied AEC Reliance, also a constituent of the 1962 Don allocation. This coach remained in the fleet until 1964 when it was involved in a collision with a Portsmouth PD2! It was sold as seen to Chiltern Queens, which repaired the coach and ran it in service for many, many years. It is today in preservation at the Oxford Bus Museum with John Bayliss, and is currently under restoration.

Philip Lamb


11/08/12 – 07:19

And here’s a photo of said vehicle, which spent some years awaiting restoration. SEE: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/

Chris Hebbron


16/03/13 – 09:00

whrv

I’ve been searching and have finally found this photo to post, a nearside rear view of the Tilling-Stevens Successor, before the Duple body was modified and fitted to LT1000.

Chris Hebbron


23/03/13 – 17:33

Michael Hampton (21/05/2011) provides a list of operators in the Portsmouth area. As a child I recollect looking through the locked doors of a garage occupying the space of not more than two houses on Copythorn Road, a residential road. In this I saw two vehicles owned by ‘Little Wonder’. I think they were a Bedford OWB with what appeared to be a typical Duple body and a half cab.
Despite growing up not far away I do not recollect seeing these vehicles on the road nor that they had a ‘stand’ at the excursion area to the east of South Parade Pier.
Kelly’s 1958 Street Directory shows 20 to 24 Copythorn Road as occupied by ‘Little Wonder Motor Coaches Ltd (P. W. Lambert, director)’. When checked on Google Street view the garage still existed being used by a car servicing and repair company.
I believe the company was based on the Portsmouth Road in Petersfield and had at least one stage carriage route in that area. Does anyone know anything about this company?

Harry Chandler


24/03/13 – 08:09

I found a very useful list of Portsmouth coach operators on the web. Seems to start in the 1860’s. It appears to be an appendix to a book – the link is: //homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.pomeroy/local/buscoach.pdf
One operator is shewn as:
Little Wonder Coaches (P W Lambert, Petersfield)
1948 – 1953     20-24, Copthorn Road

Chris Hebbron


25/03/13 – 07:49

The small coach garage in Copythorn Road was indeed occupied during the period in question by Little Wonder of Petersfield as an outstation. LW had no excursion licences out of Portsmouth, and so did not ply for trade on the coach stands at South Parade.. Private hire was though undertaken in Portsmouth, in addition to Forces Leave contract work. The half-cab – there is a choice from: two Fodens, a Crossley or a Leyland PS1. Two OWBs were operated, as well as a number of OBs and a WTB – any of these may have been based in Portsmouth for private hire duties at any one time. Beware the PDF cited above – it is full of errors! Little Wonder, which operated a stage carriage service out of Petersfield, sold out to Southdown on 26 October 1959. Any further accurate info welcome! Harry I have a Fleet List, more or less complete, which I can E-mail to you.

Philip Lamb

Further to the above – the stage service was Petersfield-Buriton. This was the only asset acquired by Southdown. No vehicles were taken into stock – they were sold separately. The Forces Leave work would appear to have ceased.


25/03/13 – 07:50

According to my notes the operator was originally I W Lambert, later incorporated as Little Wonder Coaches Ltd in November 1950, and ceased in 1959, but I’ve no idea where I got that from so I can’t vouch for it.
An Omnibus Society publication dated July 1953 lists Little Wonder Coaches Ltd as having four stage services, all based on Petersfield: 301 to Alton, 302 to Froxfield, 303 to Buriton, and 304 to New Alresford.
The PSVC’s Southdown fleet history lists a Petersfield – Buriton stage service being acquired from “P W Lambert (t/as Little Wonder Coaches)” on 26th October 1959.

Michael Wadman


25/03/13 – 10:23

Does anybody know what the numbers in the right hand column signify? (1, 9, 41, etc.) in Chris Hebbrons list of Portsmouth coach operators.

Petras409


26/03/13 – 06:30

Petras409: NO! This document has several errors and omissions. It appears to be part of a larger work, but as yet, no-one can find the rest! Never mind…

Philip Lamb


26/03/13 – 06:30

As I mentioned earlier, I suspect that the list is an index to a book and the numbers in the right-hand column refers to the pages where the coach companies get full mention. I trawled back through the URL and the book doesn’t get a mention.

Chris Hebbron


04/04/13 – 06:09

Many thanks to those who have provided information about Little Wonder Coaches. In the mean time a photograph has come to light in the John Boylett Memorial Collection at www.sct61.org.uk/ Little Wonder, Petersfield HOR 200, a Reading C32F bodied Commer Avenger new in February 1950, seen at Ascot. Photo taken by the late John Boylett, courtesy of John Kaye, Saturday 21 June 1958, Ascot.
A Bellgraphic ticket was sold on e-bay on 16 January 2013 but the illustration does not give any information about route or fare (reference: www.ebay.com/itm/Bus-Ticket-Bellgraphic).
Also an intriguing reference to a Little Wonder Coach in a participants recollections of a school trip to France in Summer 1955 when a Little Wonder Coach took the party from Portsmouth to Southampton. It appears the condition of the coach was not pristine! The reference is: www.southerngrammar.com/ then look for: Fred (Ray) Martin’s recollections of SGS and a French trip It is in the fourth paragraph down!

Harry Chandler


12/05/13 – 12:14

Re Nudd, Duple, Duple (Midland), Willowbrook, my understanding is that Duple acquired Nudd Bros & Lockyer at Kegworth c4/52 then acquired an additional factory in Loughborough some time in 1955. Then, in 1956 it created Duple Motor Bodies (Midland) Ltd. for vehicles built at both sites. This happened no later than 1/6/56 but I would be interested to hear from anyone who can put a more accurate 1956 date on it (and/or the date the additional factory in Loughborough opened in 1955). The batch of Southdown Tiger Cubs MUF 620-639 were indeed built at Kegworth (in 1954) and are described in the PSV Circle’s fleet history as Duple (Nudd). Duple acquired Willowbrook in 1958 and was run separately until late in 1960 after which, in general, and as previously stated in these comments, the heavyweights were regarded as Willowbrook while the Bedfords and Fords were Duple (Midland). This continued until 1968. From 1/1/69 everything was Willowbrook.

Would be interested in anyone’s comments or additional information on this brief summary.

Paul Everett


26/07/14 – 06:38

Re Percy Lambert, Little Wonder Coaches, Petersfield.
Growing up in Petersfield I remember Percy and his coach company.The garage was at the junction of Borough Road and The Spain in Petersfield and could only house about two coaches with room for another outside.
My only regular journey on their vehicles was on a Wednesday lunch time when I could catch the returning Froxfield coach outside of our home which would take me back to school for the afternoon. The regular driver would be Colin Harfield who was Percy`s son-in-law. My family knew other members of the family as we had links with Buriton village where I think either Percy or his wife came from I understand that Philip Lamb has a fleet list which I would appreciate a copy of if possible. I remember Bedford OB`s, the one that Colin drove I think could have had a Plaxton body. I also remember the newest coach, an early SB painted a darker green than earlier vehicles which I think went to Phil Meatyard at Portchester on closure. I was aware of a garage in Portsmouth, but had no idea of its location until reading earlier comments. The note about the Petersfield office being in Portsmouth Road I think was just the house where Percy lived.

Peter Hann


25/10/14 – 07:44

Here is a link showing the "before and after" states of the Duple body originally fitted to the 1937 Tilling-Stevens Successor chassis:- https://www.flickr.com/photos

Roger Cox


28/10/14 – 07:43

Little Wonder for Peter Hann. Yes I have a fleet list, sorry for not replying earlier, but have only today seen your request. You are correct on both your suppositions. A Plaxton-bodied OB, JX 9673, was operated, whilst SB/Duple Vega NDF 751 was sold to Meatyard in 1959, remaining there until 1963. The garage in Copythorn Road Portsmouth still exists sandwiched between terraces of houses. Today it provides a servicing facility for used car dealer Hewett on Copnor Road. By one of those uncanny co-incidences, the Hewett family ran prewar coaching company Silver King of Southsea, although the vehicles were garaged elsewhere. Get in touch with me through this site for the fleet list, which I believe to be correct – correct that is until another discovery turns up . . .

Philip Lamb


07/12/14 – 17:09

little wonder

I’m Helen Lambert, Percy Lambert’s Great Grandaughter. I live in Shrewsbury where I was born and am the Grandaughter of Algy, one of Percy’s sons. Algy moved to Oswestry following his period in the Army, having met my Nan. My Dad Melvyn remembers helping out on the buses and I was wondering if you had any specific pictures of the garage, Percy and the buses. We still have a business card of Percy’s.

Helen Lambert


03/03/15 – 08:57

A very belated reply to the comment above by Chris Youhill dated 22/05/11 – 11:47 about Crinages, Ventnor, Isle of Wight.
Crinages were independent up until July 1967 when they sold out to Shamrock and Rambler.
Fountain Coaches of Cowes were also independent but until December 1969 when they also sold out to S&R.
Strangely S&R sold out/transferred their 16 Isle of Wight based coaches to Southern Vectis on 7th June 1969. These coaches were then operated basically as a separate unit by Southern Vectis in an Orange and Cream livery for several years.

Vectis83


03/03/15 – 10:47

Many thanks Vectis 83 for that interesting chronological detail about Crinage’s. This explains why I had the strong impression in 1963 that the beautifully presented maroon and cream coaches were operated by a very proud independent concern. As old age progresses here, I can scarcely believe that I did those IOW tours more than half a century ago – a sobering thought – and my tours stayed at the superb Tenerife Hotel right at the entrance to Sandown Pier with lovely marine views and very good food indeed. The resident manager (owner possibly ?) was a Mr. Lovejoy. Its difficult now to imagine what an ordeal the journeys to and from Leeds/West Yorkshire were. There were no motorways or urban bypass roads, the speed limit for coaches was I’m sure 40 mph, and many of the inadequate meal stops were inaccessible – Winchester, for example, in a nightmare location and the last ferry to the Island from Portsmouth Hard (6.40pm if I recall) seemed like a thousand miles away !!

Chris Youhill


03/03/15 – 15:49

Sad to say, Chris Y, that a quick search of Google Maps suggests that the Tenerife Hotel no longer trades under that name, although the buildings facing the pier look original.
This would be my experience of life, since almost all the buildings I ever worked in have been demolished, some quite modern and short-lived! Of course, I’m crumbling a bit, too!

Chris Hebbron


05/03/15 – 07:07

Chris H, Many thanks for the update on the Tenerife Hotel. Luckily, I’ve just unearthed the hotel brochure which I had when I did the tours in October 1963 and you’ll be pleased to hear that the place is still in big business, but renamed the Bayshore and viewable in pictorial detail by looking up "Sandown Hotels" on the Internet. The original buildings are still to the same layout, although the frontages have been vastly altered. As you look at the picture the block on the left clinches the identification – four storeys high and the top floor obviously added on as a row of "dormers", prior to 1963 !! Brings back many happy memories for me !!

Chris Youhill


05/03/15 – 09:23

Now we really are off the thread. Looked up your "Tenerife" hotel (perhaps they didn’t now want comparisons with the winter weather?!) on Trip Advisor and found it looking like so many more. However, only two "terrible" reviews and most seemed satisfied, and liked the drivers on "Alfa" holidays (hope "Romeo" wasn’t the driver) except one… "The coach driver was a danger to other drivers": never in your day Chris, even trying to access Winchester!

Joe


05/03/15 – 16:07

From Google Maps, this part of Sandown still looks very ‘chipper’, I must say, unlike many seaside resorts today. As I’ve said before, in the 1960’s, my wife and I would take many summer day-trips from Southsea, where we lived, to IoW, often by paddle steamer. Sandown, Shanklin and Ventnor (by steam train) were particular favourites.

Chris Hebbron


GF 7524_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


14/09/21 – 06:35

In relation to the TSM Successor, there is a very good article on the Successor in the October 1937 Commercial Motor magazine.

Mark Erskine

Wallace Arnold Tours – Leyland Tiger – LUB 260


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Wallace Arnold Tours Leeds
1948
Leyland Tiger PS1
Duple C33F

This photo is another from my dusty collection of postcards bought many years ago, and recently extracted from the proverbial shoebox. This view of Wallace Arnold coach LUB 260 was taken by an unknown photographer sometime in the mid-1950s, and might possibly have been at their Paignton depot (confirmation would be appreciated please). Amazingly, on the back of this photo I have written its subsequent history, although where I got the information from is a mystery, On being withdrawn by WA in 1958 it went to Ward Brothers of Lepton (Huddersfield). In 1960 it was sold to Mitchell’s of Luthermuir, presumably to join their existing fleet of red and cream PS1 coaches – see this link – Its last known move was to contractors Haley of Cleckheaton (West Yorkshire) in 1962, and was presumably scrapped soon after. Quite a well-travelled coach even after its glorious WA days.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood


08/07/12 – 10:15

Looks like the frontage of Royston depot – but I stand to be corrected . . .

Philip Rushworth


08/07/12 – 10:15

LUB 260_cu

There’s a picture of this coach in “Holidays By Coach” an illustrated history of Wallace Arnold, by Stewart J Brown.
The caption states it was rebuilt with a full front in 1954.

In the same book is a photo of Royston depot taken in 1948 and there are detail differences in the asbestos style cladding to the building.

Eric Bawden


09/07/12 – 07:13

Yes R. T. Haley of Hillside Works Hunsworth Cleckheaton. I remember them having this coach painted bright yellow and as stated fitted with a full front. I don’t think the company is still in business.

Philip Carlton


10/07/12 – 06:55

Anybody have a photo of LUB 260 after rebuilding to full front?

Eric Bawden


10/07/12 – 13:46

The full front coach would surely never have looked as good as the original did. What a great photograph…I really enjoy looking at these old buses and coaches…and wishing I had a time machine!!

Norman Long


11/07/12 – 08:16

Too true Norman – these full front conversions of the early 1950s always looked “unhappy”, and the process turned the interiors of the driving cabs into a nightmare of noise and condensation – and as with all these “consultant led” schemes fooled nobody – the public aren’t dense, but sadly even today operators seem to think that they are – age disguised re-registrations etc – bah humbug !!
Samuel Ledgard had a batch of truly beautiful looking PS1/Duple half cabs in 1948 – classic is the word – and had them “full fronted” – ever after they looked simply awful and caused we devotees much displeasure.

Chris Youhill


11/07/12 – 12:35

Yet again, I find myself agreeing with Ebenezer Youhill. With the possible exception of the “Regent V” version, I always preferred exposed radiators as well.

David Oldfield


12/07/12 – 07:55

I’m always glad of the support of our wise colleague David Cratchett Oldfield in these matters – I might just consider relenting my nature and let him have Christmas Day off with pay this year !!

Chris Youhill


12/07/12 – 11:21

…..with a whole goose, not just a pigeon!

David Oldfield


15/07/12 – 17:10

LUB 260 rebuilt with full front by Wilkes and Meade to Plaxton design in 1/54.

Dave Williamson


20/03/15 – 09:24

Thank you for all these wonderful comments. Immensely useful to me as I write about my childhood memories of going to Blackpool Illuminations in the 1950s. I just wish there was a shot of the inside of the coach as I can’t remember where you stored your mackintosh and bag, did they have overhead racks or nets? Anyway, lovely stuff and great memories, thanks.

Lynda Radley Finn

Wakefields Motors – Leyland Tiger TS8 – FT 45?4 – 104


Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Wakefields Motors
1937
Leyland Tiger TS8
Duple C30F

Regarded by many as one of the most handsome pre war coach bodies, if my information is correct, Wakefields Motors had four of these C30F Duple Coronations. FT 45?4/7 – 104/7, from 1937, were on a Leyland Tiger TS8 chassis.


Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

They were followed in 1938 by another four FT 49?? 108/11 but this time they were AEC Regals. The four Leylands spent some of the war years in Ireland on hire to the Northern Ireland Transport board. As a young boy of eight, I can remember them still being at Percy Main when the Beadle rebodied AEC’s arrived in 1952 & 53, they were eventually replaced by the Weymann Fanfares of 1955. I know many quality pre war chassis were being rebodied at that time, but I don’t know if these were. For those who don’t remember real money, the board at the front of the AEC, two shillings, 2/- is 10p.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye


14/04/15 – 06:59

The AEC is standing at the top of South Parade outside Quickfalls shop in Whitley Bay, who acted as booking agent for Wakefields. After picking up here, the coach would then pick up at Cullercoats, Tynemouth, North Shields and Wallsend. When I was quite young, my parents took me on a half-day tour to Rothbury and Cragside, for which one of the pre-war half-cab coaches was provided, although I don’t recall if it was an AEC or Leyland. For a tour like this going north, it would start in Wallsend with Whitley Bay as the last picking up point. The route then taken would be via Seaton Delaval and the A192 to Morpeth and then I think via Longhorsley, returning via Scotsgap or vice versa. On the return journey, there would be a break at Morpeth. Rothbury was a place we enjoyed visiting, and we used at one time or another all three tour operators from Whitley Bay, the others being Priory Coaches and United. Priory’s booking agent and pickup point was at the foot of North Parade, and as far as I can recall, they provided a Bedford SB coach. United, of course used the Bus Station and regrettably, provided a bus for the tour, admittedly an almost new Bristol LS5G, but still a bus, which did nothing to improve my parents low opinion of United as a tour operator. On the whole, we much preferred Wakefields, and over the years travelled on most of their day and half-day tours.

John Gibson


15/05/15 – 06:36

Just a shot in the dark on behalf of a friend. Did Wakefields by any chance have a livery of green and cream, presumably before WW2, and did they ever have any of the Northern GT “SE4 or SE6 saloons ??
Any pertinent information would be much appreciated thanks.

Chris Youhill


15/05/15 – 11:40

Chris, this is a round the houses way of saying, I don’t know, but my records would suggest that if the livery was green, it would be pre 1929. Wakefields Motors Limited, were founded in 1919, their depot was in Church Way North Shields. At a date I have not been able to establish, they became a subsidiary of The London North Eastern Railway Company. In 1929, they bought Archer Bros of North Shields, this increased the fleet to 43, 31 buses and 12 coaches, also in 1929, L.N.E.R purchased an interest in the NGT group, the name was retained, but Wakefields adopted NGT livery, and all new vehicles were numbered as part of the Tynemouth & District fleet, but they had a ‘W’ prefix. In 1933, NGT opened a new depot at Percy Main, all T&D and Wakefields vehicles were rehoused there, the remaining Wakefields vehicles were also renumbered. The Wakefields depot was sold off, as was the T&D depot in Suez Street North Shields, but the depot in John Street Cullercoats became the NGT group body and paint shop. Percy Main had eight NGT/SE6 vehicles, FT 3478/3482 – 82/86 from 1935; and FT 3903/3905 – 90/92 from 1936; to the best of my knowledge, none of them carried the Wakefields name. Until 1970, the name was in continuous use on some service buses, and all Percy Main based coaches, in 1975 all P/M vehicles were renamed Northern.

Ronnie Hoye

Ribble – Leyland Tiger – FV 5737 – 753

Ribble - Leyland Tiger - FV 5737 - 753

Ribble Motor Services
1936
Leyland Tiger TS7
Duple C31F

FV 5737, Leyland Tiger TS7, was new to W C Standerwick of Blackpool in 1936. In the post-war years, she was transferred across to the Ribble fleet and given this Duple C31F body in 1950. In the renumbering system, she became 753. She’s seen at the Winkleigh Open Day on 7 October 2012.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


14/02/15 – 13:03

It would appear that the petrol engine was changed for an oil engine at the same time as the re-body. It still kept its starting handle but I doubt it was ever used I have heard you could do yourself some serious injury if you didn’t get it quite right.

Trevor Knowles


14/02/15 – 17:14

These had been rebodied with 8ft. wide bodies, resulting in a nice looking coach, just spoilt by having to retain the original 7ft 6in. wide axles and resulting in the wheels being set back inside the wings and wheelarches. I suppose since prewar chassis were never built to the greater width, the wider axles would not be available as they would be with postwar models.

John Stringer


14/02/15 – 18:21

Trevor, I have heard a similar story about fairly serious consequences arising if the user of the starting handle didn’t keep out of its way!
Yes, John, it does skew the appearance a bit, but I suppose the other side of the coin is that the wheels are further into the mudguards, so there’s less of a “splash factor” for other road users to suffer.

Pete Davies


16/02/15 – 06:48

I served a 6 year apprenticeship at Ribble main workshop Frenchwood Preston till about 1961. I do remember foreman Sid Liptrot using a heavy chain to start a diesel Tiger, must have been mad. The petrol engine Cheetah sounded like a Rolls Royce. Probably best company in UK.

Raymond Hollebone


24/09/19 – 04:22

New in 1935 and rebodied in 1948 (I should know I spent my childhood on 753 rallying every weekend).

Peter Robinson

Southdown – Leyland Tiger Cub – MUF 637 – 637

Southdown - Leyland Tiger Cub - MUF 637 - 637

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1954
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/1
Duple/Nudd B39F

The recent posting of the Edinburgh Guy Arab re-bodied by Nudd Brothers & Lockyer reminded me of this batch of saloons delivered to Southdown in 1954. This batch of Leyland Tiger Cubs were numbered 620-639 registered MUF 620-639 with B39F seating layout which oddly had a single N/S front seat and 2 pairs at the rear with a central emergency door and a mixture of half drop and sliding ventilators as well as unusual, for Southdown, curved seat top rails. These were new at a time when large numbers of parcels were carried, so behind the cab there was a floor to ceiling compartment about the size of a wardrobe fitted with shelving for carrying the parcels at the rear of which was a sliding door into the saloon, the drivers only other entry was the sliding door to the outside. Five very similar but by no means identical Tiger Cubs were delivered in 1955 numbered 640-644 registered OUF 640-643/PUF 644. They were very light and pleasant to drive and I always thought that the Tiger Cub had the best brakes of any Leyland model of that era.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave


06/02/14 – 08:59

Reminds me of the 1950’s Devon General Weymann Reliances. These are the only other underfloor front loaders I can remember with a separate cab door.

David Oldfield


06/02/14 – 16:06

I thought that some of the early BMMO built S types had a cab door.

Stephen Bloomfield


06/02/14 – 16:49

Huddersfield specified enclosed cabs with an offside hinged cab door on all its UF purchases up to and including the 1963 “A” registered pair of Reliances (23 and 24)

Ian Wild


06/02/14 – 17:37

Bradford also had two AEC Reliances (501 and 502) with offside cab doors.

Stephen Bloomfield


07/02/14 – 06:49

Manchester Corporation’s Leyland Royal Tigers 20 – 23 and “Leyland” Aberdonians 40 – 45 all had the offside cab door, with a fixed partition between the cab and the platform. I think East Yorkshire also had some saloons with this feature.

Don McKeown


07/02/14 – 06:50

Your mention of parcels, D Dave, reminds me of when I lived in Southsea, 1956-76, and the GPO would hire Southdown coaches to deliver Xmas parcels around the streets. With modern traffic parking down the road I lived in, I doubt if a coach could get along it now!

Chris Hebbon


07/02/14 – 18:47

Maidstone & District had a batch of Harrington/Commer integral saloons with an o/s cab door.
Re GPO use, can recall M&D buses and coaches hired for Xmas deliveries many many years ago.

Malcolm Boyland


08/02/14 – 08:23

ey_cab

Here is a photograph of the cab of an East Yorkshire Tiger Cub which had C H Roe bodywork.

Ken Wragg


08/02/14 – 09:49

Interesting that many of the early underfloor saloons had these enclosed cabs.
M&D’s certainly did but they subsequently went over to the near standard practice of just using a low waist high enclosure.
In today’s unpleasant society, the driver sadly needs the security of an assault proof working place but that wouldn’t have been so in the 50’s or 60’s.

Malcolm Boyland


25/03/14 – 15:27

I assume the requirement for the cab to have an emergency exit is still in place. On half cabs the side window over the engine is usually the emergency exit. If you can’t get out if the bus goes on its offside, then there needs to be a second way out. I guess that is the reason for the sliding door at the back of the Roe bodywork in the picture.

Peter Cook


26/03/14 – 06:25

I remember the prosaic message in the cabs of the Routemasters In the event of a fire get out.!!!

Philip Carlton


26/03/14 – 09:30

Frank Muir once remarked that, in all Emergency Instructions, item number two was always more important than number one.
Thus:- In Case of Fire
1. Notify your superior officer
2. Jump out of the window.

Roger Cox


09/08/17 – 06:36

From what Diesel Dave says about this beauty and the 15xx’s I get the impression our formative bus years were pretty much the same (KK 48848?). The later 640-4 were still around when I began driving but, certainly as far as the driver’s compartment went, they looked as though they’d been rescued from a chicken farm. However, for one brief interlude 638 came our way and what a dream. Somewhere along the line it had acquired one of the more modern grey enamel dashboards and could be driven with finger tip control. Is there anything on the road today that modern drivers will look back on with such fondness and respect?

Nick Turner


17/05/21 – 17:04

What a lovely bus I have an amazing picture of MUF 639 in the idyllic backdrop of Poynings circa 1957 possibly, the bus is central to the picture numbered route 128 on its rural route to Henfield Railway Station via Devils Dyke and Small Dole such an amazing picture does this bus still survive.
My dad drove for the Thames Valley from 1949 to 1986.

Mike Robinson

Edward Thomas and Son – Leyland Tiger Cub – 6217 PU

6217 PU

Edward Thomas and Son
1961
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2
Duple C41F

This is a Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2 with a Duple Donington C41F body that was bought initially for staff transport by the Shell Oil company in 1961. It went to Edward Thomas of West Ewell, near Epsom, Surrey in November 1968, who in turn disposed of it in December 1974 to Trevor Brown, proprietor of the Tillingbourne Bus Company. In December 1975 it was sold to Hargreaves of Newbury. 6217 PU is seen here in Tillingbourne ownership, though still wearing the livery of Edward Thomas, parked in the yard beside Gomshall railway station that then served as Tillingbourne’s operating base, to the chagrin of Guildford Borough Council who consistently pressured the company to find other premises. I always liked the Tiger Cub model, though the five speed constant mesh gearbox required proper respect for clean changes, and the Donington body (this is the second version, still with shallow windows), together with the Elizabethan and Britannia, represented  Duple UF bodywork design at its best. Thereafter in the 1960s Duple abandoned all restraint and went completely downhill in my view, initially by adopting a  bulbous front end derived from the front engined models, and later going completely overboard with a mish mash of uncoordinated styling features embellished with a truly ghastly, garish, Detroit ‘inspired’ front grille. Even when the firm finally pulled itself together and adopted the Plaxton clone Dominant design it was still just a pale imitation of the Scarborough original.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


13/06/16 – 17:17

6217 PU_2

Whilst not the best image and taken from my slide , I can attach a picture of 6217PU repainted into Tillingbourne colours and seen in Shere village.

Keith Newton


14/06/16 – 06:07

When did the Tillingbourne livery change from the maroon?
I seem to remember, from using Guildford bus stations through to as late as 1959 that their buses and Brady,s Brown Buses were actually quite close in colour/hue.

John Lomas


14/06/16 – 11:16

Does anybody have a picture of this in Shell Oil livery? If it was in the same corporate colours as their tanker fleet it might be quite attractive.

Neville Mercer


14/06/16 – 17:43

9712 WX

On 30 September 1970, Trevor Wilcox Brown of Grayshott bought the Tillingbourne Valley operations and its GS buses From the Trice family that had started the business on Easter Bank Holiday in 1924. At first the maroon livery and Tillingbourne Valley trading name continued, though slightly changed, but in April 1972, GS MXX 364 appeared in a new livery of blue with a white roof and a yellow relief band below the windows. The company became the Tillingbourne Bus Company and the fleetname, in a bolder style, was reduced to just ‘Tillingbourne’. This then became the fleet standard but, over subsequent years until the company’s abrupt demise in April 2001, the livery underwent several changes with yellow generally becoming the predominant colour. Back to the Tillingbourne Tiger Cubs. The company had three of these with Donington bodywork, the one shown above plus two from Pennine of Gargrave, 6108 WU and 9712 WX. A fourth Tiger Cub in the fleet, VCH 172, had a Willowbrook DP41F body, and came from Watson’s and Goodman’s & Tours, t/a Ford of Gunnislake. Here is a shot of 9712 WX pictured during one of my Saturday driving stints with it on the 450 Farley Green – Guildford route in 1974. This vehicle had the final and in my opinion the best version of the Donington body, with deeper saloon windows that matched the height of the windscreen. It was a very pleasant vehicle to drive.

Roger Cox


15/06/16 – 07:10

The recent picture of 6217 PU made me (excitedly) put pen to paper and before I knew it I have written a bit of a personal memoir of the Shell Refining private bus service that operated in the 1950s until the mid 1960s. I am afraid I have strayed well of the mark for an answer to the question what colour was it when new – which is what kicked off my thoughts. Perhaps you might like to start it as a new subject though it is a bit short on bus detail. I was after all, only eight when 6217 PU was new. I have referenced some other local activities too. All photos are from my collection and the one of 838 HNO was taken by the late Peter Snell who gave me a copy years ago.

Nick Webster

Nicks copy and photos can be viewed at this link ‘Shell Refining’s Private Bus Service’

Alpine Travel – Leyland Tiger Cub – WND 477

Alpine Travel - Leyland Tiger Cub - WND 477

Alpine Travel
1958
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2
Duple Britannia C41F

Photographed in Llandudno some ten years ago is this Hughes Bros Alpine Tours Tiger Cub WND 477, which started life in August 1958 with Spencer Tours of Manchester. This firm merged with Smiths of Wigan which later became part of Shearings. On my several visits to Llandudno over past years it has always been this coach waiting in readiness for its Great Orme trip, and I have never encountered its fellow Tiger Cub BCJ 710B with Harrington Grenadier C45F coachwork of July 1964.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

Belle Vue Coaches – Leyland Royal Tiger – LOE 300


Copyright Pete Davies

Belle Vue Coaches
1951
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15
Duple Roadmaster ????

As most people visiting this site will know, Dinky made far more examples of the model Duple Roadmaster than Duple ever managed to make of the real thing. Most of the real ones went to Standerwick and, so far as I am aware, there are no survivors from that batch. There area few others about, however, and I captured this one, LOE 300 on Royal Tiger PSU1/15 chassis, during the Fleetwood Tram Sunday event on 15 July. The PSV Circle volume on preserved buses shows her to have started life in 1951 with Jackson of Castle Bromwich. She’s now in the care of Walsh (Belle Vue Coaches) in the Manchester area and may or may not show RSK 615 as the registration. “Not” in this view! I’m sure someone out there can answer this, but I’ve only ever seen the Roadmaster on a Royal Tiger chassis. Were they ever fitted to other makes?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


21/08/12 – 16:29

RSK 615 isn’t assigned to any vehicle at present.

Roger Broughton


21/08/12 – 16:30

To clarify the note above, she shows Belle Vue Coaches on the back panel, but PSVC shows her as with Walsh.

Pete Davies


21/08/12 – 16:31

KWO 37 Guy Arab UF  – on this site, Pete.

David Oldfield


21/08/12 – 20:31

David, Thank you for that. I can see some resemblance, but my experience of the body design – Standerwick and Dinky Toys, of course, plus this one – shows several differences. Is it, perhaps, a Mk1 and a Mk2, or other modification, in the way the Seagulls had variations and “Mk” numbers during their production?

Pete Davies


21/08/12 – 20:32

SK is a Caithness (Inverness) registration mark, so if that’s the original number, could it have started life with the SMT group ‘Highland Scottish’ as it later became?

Ronnie Hoye


21/08/12 – 20:33

I saw this lovely machine at the Leyland event, but how much nicer would it look if repainted into the dark blue with a red roof livery it wore while with its main owner, South Notts of Gotham, who bought it from Jackson at a fairly early stage in its working career? Did any other Roadmasters survive to the present day?

Neville Mercer


21/08/12 – 20:34

Two of these coaches survive. The other is MAL 310, a South Notts PSU1/11 new in 1951. South Notts also owned LOE 300 for a time.

Philip Lamb


22/08/12 – 06:10

Livery makes such a difference, Pete – as does the fact that the Guy is photographed in black and white and the Leyland is, literally, in glorious colour. Lighter shades tend to flatter – which is no doubt why large operators of this era used “reverse” livery for coaches.

David Oldfield


22/08/12 – 06:11

The registration number RSK 615 is almost certainly an age related DVLA allocation thus inferring that the LOE 300 registration has or may have been lost at some stage. If it is being driven wearing LOE 300 then hopefully the number has been regained replacing the age related one.

Richard Leaman


22/08/12 – 06:11

I wonder how many of these Jackson of Castle Bromwich had, because South Notts purchased two of them, LOE 300 and LOE 900, both in 1957. As Neville says, South Notts were the main operator, having obtained around thirteen years service out of them. Together with their own MAL 310 purchased new and MRR 974 with Leyland bus body, it was quite an impressive fleet of Royal Tigers for a small independent!

Chris Barker


22/08/12 – 10:23

Pete. If you scrutinise the two photographs carefully for differences:
(i) Livery (ii) Mouldings (iii) Position of emergency door (central on Guy) partly causing (iv) different windows (pairs on Leyland put two singles in middle of Guy) Drop ventilators on Guy and Hoppers on Leyland.
Mouldings include front panel on Leyland for spare wheel.
Question for everyone. Hoppers? How common was this in 1950.
Still the same body, though. Similar difference could be seen on other bodies, including later Duples – in particular between bodies on different chassis.

David Oldfield


22/08/12 – 11:08

Thank you, David.

Pete Davies


22/08/12 – 14:47

As Chris B says, LOE300 spent approx 13 years with South Notts; it then passed to the British Legion (later Royal British Legion) at Gotham who kept it for many more years.

LOE 300_lr_2

My photo shows it on Queens Drive, Nottingham in 1988/9, towards the end of its time with them.
How nice to see it preserved and active again.

Bob Gell


23/08/12 – 07:13

Good bit of parking or pioneering low-step access for the old lads?! More seriously, I thought the (unavoidably) off-centre Leyland badge had been added as a restoration trimming, but apparently not.

Joe


23/08/12 – 07:14

Now that’s a classy livery, well suited to the beading. Presumably this was is South Notts colours?

Paul Haywood


23/08/12 – 07:15

Another unique point about the South Notts trio of Roadmasters is that the one they bought new, MAL 310 was 7ft 6in wide, whereas these two were 8ft wide.

Chris Barker


23/08/12 – 10:48

Regarding MAL 310 being a 7ft 6in wide vehicle (and a bus rather than a coach) – this probably has to do with the routes it was planned for. I don’t ever remember seeing single deckers on the Nottingham – Gotham – Loughborough main line service. Single deckers operated the Nottingham – Kegworth village service with quite a few narrow roads and tight bends. Most were short workings to Barton in Fabis or Thrumpton, and the others included or omitted West Leake and/or Kingston on Soar according to market day, the state of the moon, and whether there was an R in the month – a typical rural bus service of the 50s. From memory, I think it was previously run with conductor operated half-cabs.

Stephen Ford


23/08/12 – 10:48

There’s a nice colour shot of LOE 300 in South Notts livery in Malcolm Keeley’s excellent book “Midland Red Days”. I didn’t know about it’s time with the British Legion, so thanks for that photograph – she looks rather nice in blue and yellow!
Also thanks to Philip Lamb for reminding me that MAL still exists. My personal favourite livery on this type was that of Bamber Bridge MS who had two of them in red and black, one a narrow 7 ft 6 in, the other an 8ft wide version. It’s about time a diecast manufacturer tackled this one again – it’s been a long time since the 1/72 scale Dinky Toy and there are lots of good liveries available even though it was a comparatively rare prototype.

Neville Mercer


23/08/12 – 14:19

Some interesting thoughts from Stephen. There was an oddity reported on the BBC news channel several weeks ago about a market day service in the Milton Keynes area. It operates only on the FIFTH Tuesday in the month, so maybe three or four times a year. Why, the reporter was asking, not EVERY Tuesday?
In the Nottingham and Gotham area, I’d be surprised if the mischief makers among the local bus fans did not spend time amending the signs to BARTON IS FAB . . . And Thrumpton, that’s where the fire brigade in the children’s television show was based, wasn’t it?

Pete Davies


24/08/12 – 08:15

There’s also a train that goes only one way (I believe from Stockport to Stalybridge) and doesn’t return. I think that is only when there’s a Q in the month as well!

David Oldfield


24/08/12 – 08:15

Alan Townsin’s Duple book confirms that the Guy had a later version of the Roadmaster body than LOE 300, after what he calls “some tidying up”. The hopper windows were standard on the early models, later reverting to the more usual full-drop type seen on the Guy. Red & White Group were the biggest Roadmaster customer, the parent company taking 1 Leyland and 14 Guys, with a further 7 Guys for the United Welsh fleet.

Peter Williamson


24/08/12 – 08:32

South Notts own Royal Tiger/Duple Roadmaster (fleet number 42, MAL 310) had 45 seats. This was one more than the Royal Tiger with the Leyland bus body (fleet number 45, MRR 974) that seated 44 due to the emergency exit being in the rear wall of the body. The Royal Tiger badge was fixed in the centre of the front panels on 42, rather than offset to the nearside as with 63 (LOE 900) and 64 (LOE 300). Numbers 63 & 64 both seated 41 passengers. Sorry, Neville – South Notts painted the roof maroon on their buses.

Michael Elliott


24/08/12 – 12:29

Michael, I lived in Nottingham for several years and can assure you that South Notts COACHES used to have a red roof. You’re thinking of their double-decker buses which did indeed carry maroon as their top colour. The red roof on coaches seems to have been abandoned on new vehicles or repaints after about 1960, but the maroon roof on ‘deckers continued until the time of the NCT take-over.

Neville Mercer


25/08/12 – 07:26

Thanks Neville for your info on South Notts coach livery pre circa 1960. I’m a ‘native’ of Nottingham and we moved to Clifton in 1953 (when I was three) so over the years I’ve been very familiar with South Notts buses.
Certainly South Notts double deckers had maroon tops and wings and initially also had cream lower deck window surrounds but, from my memory, this was soon dropped and blue window surrounds with a cream cant rail and waist rail (depending on whether the vehicle concerned had a waist rail) adopted instead.
My memories of South Notts single deck buses (principally the Royal Tiger bus, known as ‘the coffin’) is that these had maroon tops also. I have to say that these are memories from age nine/ten when I started to take a ‘more informed view’ on buses. On the question of the ‘Roadmasters’ my memories are of them with maroon tops, as are my memories of the Bedford OBs and the Leyland PS1/Duple ‘A’ type, which latterly became a snow plough. Later coaches, such as the Bedford SBs and VAMs had a livery incorporating two shades of blue.
By the way keep up the good work with the ‘Independents’ series of books. I look forward to treating myself to a copy of the North Wales volume.

Michael Elliott


25/08/12 – 10:56

Thanks for the kind words, Michael. On the South Notts front you’ve made me doubt myself enough to look through a few picture books to check the coach livery. As well as the previously mentioned shot of LOE 300 in Malcolm Keeley’s book (definitely a bright red top!) I’ve also found two shots of South Notts OB/Duple Vistas with the red roof. It’s a pity that they didn’t continue with this livery variation into the 1960s/70s – by the time I lived in Nottingham the coaches were all-over blue which did them no favours.

Neville Mercer


26/08/12 – 07:40

During 1934 both Barton and South Notts, as associated companies, introduced maroon roofs wings to all their vehicles as a form of corporate identity. Barton having held a 50% share in South Notts since 1929. Maroon was replaced by a light shade of blue on single deckers during 1961 and with the repainting of 117 in 1986 to celebrate 60 years of operation the maroon was dropped, but retaining indigo and cream as the original livery. This was so well received it was decided to standardize this on their double deckers and several were so treated.
Royal Tiger No.42 MAL 310 was a dual purpose vehicle, not a bus and was used on private hire and often hired to Barton for their express services. The two ex Jackson Royal Tigers in fact stood in Barton’s Chilwell garage yard for several months and at least one (No.64 LOE 300) ran in service with South Notts in Jackson’s green/grey livery.

Alan Oxley


11/10/12 – 07:22

I was surprised to read in Neville Mercer’s post (above) that of the two Roadmasters with Bamber Bridge Motor Service one was 7’6″ wide and the other 8′, since they were both from the same batch (of three?) new to Scout Motor Services, and it has always been my understanding that the entire batch were 7’6″. Any more bids?

David Call


17/01/15 – 06:17

This bus is part of our vintage collection at BelleVue Manchester Ltd.
Any questions you may have I can forward on to The Walsh Bros.
Kenny Walsh is the maintenance Director at BelleVue and he is one half of the Walsh Bros who perform restorations on a variety of classics.

Donna Thompson


01/06/15 – 07:22

The South Notts Worldmasters had maroon tops. I went on one to Dudley Zoo on a school trip – my first solo outing. It was similar to Barton’s maroon as there had always been connections between the two companies. They often did the Saturday services to Gotham and Thrumpton etc from Huntingdon St bus station as well as private hire and duplicates. P54 Malcolm Keeley – Midland Red Days does indeed show LOE 300 with a maroon roof exactly the same as the two South Notts Leyland buses behind. This is probably a Saturday with the Leyland PDs doing a short working to Gotham and the regular service to Loughborough (18-30 departures?). The Thrumpton bus would turn off before Gotham and was usually lightly loaded. Alan Oxley’s South Notts book (1985) is one of my cherished possessions and I would highly recommend it if you can get hold of a copy.
Oxford Diecast models intend to make a 1/76th scale model of a Worldmaster in Belle Vue Coaches livery-this one? More details will emerge.

David O’Brien


02/06/15 – 07:06

David, hate to be pedantic but these are Duple ROADmasters, not Worldmasters. Worldmaster was a brand-name used by Leyland for export versions of their Royal Tiger chassis. Also, while I accept that most South Notts vehicles had maroon roof trim, nobody has addressed the issue of bright red being shown in various published photographs detailed above. I’m aware of the “false colour” which many early types of slide film produced (as is anybody who has bought a book about Ribble!) but the examples given are beyond that. If the colours in the photo’s mentioned are wrong then I suspect that they were altered during production of the books in question. Anybody got any thoughts?

Neville Mercer


03/06/15 – 06:21

That is a valid point, Neville. Not only did different makes of colour film, slide and negative, give greatly varying results, often exacerbated by sloppy laboratory processing, but we now exist in an age of Photoshop and similar computer programs that allow image modification to a degree way beyond the old darkroom techniques. I confess to using the modern methods to get a reasonable result from my elderly slides, and I very much doubt if most published pictures are truly accurate in colour rendition. One does try to get it right, but, perhaps, our increasingly high mileage memories are probably not the best judges of the original liveries. One would really need a paint chart to match the most important colours of the original scheme for a true result.

Roger Cox


03/06/15 – 06:22

To answer my own query (11/10/12) it would appear that the three Scout Roadmasters were a mixture of 7’6″ and 8’0″. BLOTW has DRN 355 as 7’6″ and DRN 356/7 as 8’0″, but the Peter Gould fleetlist gives DRN 357 as 7’6″. All the available evidence indicates that the Peter Gould version is correct, if this is the case then the two which went to BBMS were indeed one of each width.
In respect of three Leyland-bodied PD2s new to Scout at much the same time (DRN 364-6), Peter Gould has the first two as 8’0″ wide and the third as 7’6″. BLOTW gives them all as 8’0″, but given the mixture of Roadmaster widths I suppose it’s quite possible that the PD2s were mixed width also.

David Call


28/10/15 – 07:13

Yes, colour films of the era each had their own characteristics: principally, Kodachrome (perhaps the most widely-used colour films at the time) produced vivid representations of reds. Other films were more subdued (and perhaps more realistic). Maroon appearing as bright red: I can believe it!

Allen


28/03/16 – 17:16

“SK” was indeed a Caithness CC registration originally, but with so few registrations issued by this authority, registration marks BSK to YSK were allocated by DVLA to various VROs throughout UK for “age-related” re-registrations between 3/90 and 3/92.

Andy


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


23/08/20 – 05:26

LOE 300 was sold in 11/18 to James Baile of Nassington. His mother runs a wedding and conference venue Prebendal Manor, Nassington, pics of it appear on their FB page, it was being used as an office in April this year! https://www.facebook.com/  so not sure what his plans are for it. It won’t do it much good if left outside!

John Wakefield

Pennine Motor Services – Leyland Leopard – 5895 YG


Copyright Pete Davies

Pennine Motor Services
1962
Leyland Leopard
Duple DP41F

Here is a photo of 5895 YG, Leyland Leopard with Duple body, in the fleet of Pennine Motor Services, then in Gargrave. I took the photo in Morecambe in June 1970. Note the SALOPIA vehicle alongside.
This vehicle was the last of four of this style, the other three being on Tiger Cubs UWX 277, 6108 WU and 9712 WX, so close inspection shows subtle changes over the years. The next new addition was 240 CWY, which Roger Cox posted elsewhere on the site a while ago.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


15/08/12 – 08:06

Herewith the conundrum as to what constitutes a C or a DP. Yelloway thought they were too bus like and only bought one batch but most things, including the entrance door, make this look more like a C than a DP. The same thing befell the Sheffield Transport Leopard/Burlinghams which were DP because they were based on a modified bus design rather than the Seagull – but they were really just as much coaches as their Weymann Fanfare and ECW contemporaries.

David Oldfield


15/08/12 – 11:34

Interesting point, David. From an operational point of view, the issue of whether a vehicle was a C or a DP generally depended on three factors: use, seating and livery. As OMO became more prevalent, provincial operators realised that front entrances enabled relatively easy and cheaper downgrading, especially if the eventual fate of new vehicles was considered when they were bought.
As for external appearance, a sensitive compromise was needed: too bus like, and passengers might feel they were being offered second best if they expected a coach; too coach like could mean problems displaying stage carriage destinations later in life.

Roy Burke


15/08/12 – 11:55

I’m not sure if it was still known as the ‘Donnington’ by this time but it definitely improved with age (like we do!) When it was first introduced, it had too many shallow side windows, perhaps a throwback to the old ‘Roadmaster’ design. This one, with just five deeper side windows is a great improvement and looks very nice. Yelloways were of the original design which would explain why they didn’t like them!

Chris Barker


15/08/12 – 14:47

The screen and front dome of the Donnington were shared with contemporary Willowbrook Viscount (cf Devon General). [Interesting how Duple recycled two Willowbrook names – Viceroy and Viscount.]

David Oldfield


15/08/12 – 14:48

The five bay version was known as the Donington 2 and was used by, among others, MacBraynes. I produced a resin kit of it in fact!
The design was built by the Duple Midland operation and was effectively superseded by the Britannia, which was very popular and shared the same front grille mouldings.

Andrew Goodwin


16/08/12 – 07:33

The correct spelling is Donington with one “n” – the body was named after the Donington Park motor-racing circuit close to the Duple Midland works in Loughborough. Donnington with “two ns” is in Shropshire.
As you say this version of the Donington (actually its third incarnation since the first prototype was built in 1956 – the first version was built from 1957-58 and lacked the “chain” motif in the front panel) is by far the most attractive due to the deeper windows.
I’m left a bit confused by the comment that “the Donington was replaced by the Britannia”. The Britannia design was first introduced in 1956 and the last were produced in 1962, the same year in which the Donington was deleted from the Duple catalogue. Both models were replaced for the 1963 season by a choice of either the (Hendon built) Commodore or (Blackpool built) Commander. Dual purpose options then became the preserve of the Willowbrook subsidiary and were built to “BET standard” design.

Neville Mercer


16/08/12 – 14:24

Yes Neville, I assumed that the draughtsmen who wrote “Donington” on the drawings knew what they were doing!
I didn’t actually say it was replaced by the Britannia but my choice of words was perhaps unfortunate. What I meant to convey was the relative popularity of the Britannia as against the Donington leaving the latter with fewer sales.
As you will no doubt tell us there were at least three versions of the Britannia as well!
Reference the comment above about Willowbrook model names being recycled, Park Royal also did this with the name Royalist though the second version was anything but successful, not helped by being initially built on a second-string chassis rather than a front line player.

Andrew Goodwin


17/08/12 – 07:07

You’re quite right, Andrew, there were several versions of the Britannia. The original version, brought to market in 1956 to replace the Elizabethan, had a curved waist-rail and introduced the “chain motif” to the Duple range. All of this first version had front entrances, but were offered alongside the Britannic which had a central entrance and retained more of the styling of the Elizabethan. The Britannic was quietly dropped from the catalogue in 1957 and few were sold.
The second version of the Britannia formed part of a new range of designs exhibited at the 1958 CMS at Earls Court and shared many components with the new version of the Super Vega built on Bedford SB chassis. Basically similar bodies (but at that stage nameless) were also offered on Ford and Commer chassis. As far as I can tell from my own records the Mk II Britannia was only available with a front entrance at first, but from 1960 onwards a new central entrance design with a much more curved profile at the front end was also offered. The most famous of these were probably the examples operated by Samuelsons in London and St Helens Corporation.
There were minor detail changes to both front and central entrance versions in 1961, but you really have to look hard to see the difference – a tiny destination blind incorporated into the front bumper is the most visible clue.
By 1962 orders for both Britannias and for the Donington had reduced to a trickle due to competitive pressure from the much more stylish offerings from Plaxton and Harrington. Duple realised that it was losing its share of the heavyweight coach market, dumped the Britannia, Donington, Willowbrook Viking and Viscount, and the entire sadly bastardised Burlingham range from the catalogue, and replaced the lot with the Commander (with vertical window pillars) and the short-lived Commodore (with a “Bella” style raked back pillar towards the rear).
Sorry to go on, but as you might have noticed I have a thing about pre-1965 coach designs!

Neville Mercer


17/08/12 – 07:08

David and Roy have a valid point. Shortly after I joined Armstrong Galley ‘the coaching division of T&W PTE’ we took delivery of 15 Leyland Leopards GBB 985/999N fleet numbers 85/99 – 86/95 were 53 seaters with DP doors, but still had the comfort and overall look of a coach, and 96/99 were 45 seaters with coach doors, However, 85 was a totally different animal, it was in actual fact the first Alexander ‘T’ type ‘rumour has it that one or two of the Scottish bus group companies weren’t too pleased about it going to T&W’ but back to the plot, the vehicle itself was first class, but with the best will in the world it was a bus with coach seats. A/G did quite a lot of hire work for National Travel,and a fair amount of contract work, so 85 was always first choice for that, it was later transferred to the stage carriage fleet, and I think it was sold on after that

Ronnie Hoye

Sorry, should have said that the 14 coaches were Duple bodied


17/08/12 – 07:11

Externally all forms of the Donington look like buses to me, except when dolled up with Britannia/Vega trim, as here //sct61.org.uk/  It’s amazing what a few bits of metal and an association of ideas can do!

Peter Williamson


21/08/12 – 07:41

Castle Donington (one n in the middle!). The village has long suffered having people mis-spell its name, just as many folk think it is in Derbyshire because of the postal address, but it is in Leicestershire.
The Duple Donington body. Duple purchased the business of Nudd Brothers and Lockyer in 1952, renaming it Duple (Midland) Motor Bodies. Nudd’s premises were a hanger on the former Castle Donington airfield, now East Midlands Airport. Nudd had experience of metal framed bodywork, hence the Duple interest and the name of the design of the Duple metal framed body. The technology of the time may have resulted in the rather angular design and the small windows used at first.

Mr Anon


01/08/14 – 16:29

I found the comment on ‘DP’ v ‘C’ interesting, as I’ve never been quite sure where the difference lay, and there are clearly several ‘grey areas’. One of my main questions is how the Ribble PDR1 ‘White Lady’ Atlanteans justify the designation ‘coach’, at least among enthusiasts. The roughly contemporary Leopards with BET-style bodies by Marshall and MCW are always referred to as ‘DP’, though in terms of comfort, style or usage there was little to distinguish them from the Altlanteans; if anything the Leopards were marginally more coach-like internally and ventured further afield. But both types were effectively buses fitted with headrest seats and luggage racks, and consequently had the claustrophobic feel of being packed with a lot of stuff that they were not really designed for. Both were mainly used on relatively short inter-urban express services, at least one of which (the X43 Manchester-Skipton) was actually a stage carriage route at its country end. Doses it really just boil down to the double-deckers’ almost all-ivory livery, compared with rather more red on the saloons? But then in NBC days the Atlanteans (by then well past their unimpressive best) were given service bus livery, while the Leopards got the DP treatment! Was it just that the Atlanteans hijacked the justified ‘C’ designation of their upmarket cousins, the ‘Gay Hostesses’? And as for the earlier generation of Titan ‘White Ladies’ — though admittedly I’m too young to remember very much about them — how could anything lowbridge ever really be called a coach, however much chrome you put on the outside?

Keith


15/10/19 – 05:48

This coach finished it’s day parked along the workshop at Berresford Motors Limited in the role of mess room. I believe it was still in situ when the business was sold to PMT.

Leekensian