Alpine Travel 1958 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2 Duple Britannia C41F
Photographed in Llandudno some ten years ago is this Hughes Bros Alpine Tours Tiger Cub WND 477, which started life in August 1958 with Spencer Tours of Manchester. This firm merged with Smiths of Wigan which later became part of Shearings. On my several visits to Llandudno over past years it has always been this coach waiting in readiness for its Great Orme trip, and I have never encountered its fellow Tiger Cub BCJ 710B with Harrington Grenadier C45F coachwork of July 1964.
Belle Vue Coaches 1951 Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15 Duple Roadmaster ????
As most people visiting this site will know, Dinky made far more examples of the model Duple Roadmaster than Duple ever managed to make of the real thing. Most of the real ones went to Standerwick and, so far as I am aware, there are no survivors from that batch. There area few others about, however, and I captured this one, LOE 300 on Royal Tiger PSU1/15 chassis, during the Fleetwood Tram Sunday event on 15 July. The PSV Circle volume on preserved buses shows her to have started life in 1951 with Jackson of Castle Bromwich. She’s now in the care of Walsh (Belle Vue Coaches) in the Manchester area and may or may not show RSK 615 as the registration. “Not” in this view! I’m sure someone out there can answer this, but I’ve only ever seen the Roadmaster on a Royal Tiger chassis. Were they ever fitted to other makes?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
21/08/12 – 16:29
RSK 615 isn’t assigned to any vehicle at present.
Roger Broughton
21/08/12 – 16:30
To clarify the note above, she shows Belle Vue Coaches on the back panel, but PSVC shows her as with Walsh.
David, Thank you for that. I can see some resemblance, but my experience of the body design – Standerwick and Dinky Toys, of course, plus this one – shows several differences. Is it, perhaps, a Mk1 and a Mk2, or other modification, in the way the Seagulls had variations and “Mk” numbers during their production?
Pete Davies
21/08/12 – 20:32
SK is a Caithness (Inverness) registration mark, so if that’s the original number, could it have started life with the SMT group ‘Highland Scottish’ as it later became?
Ronnie Hoye
21/08/12 – 20:33
I saw this lovely machine at the Leyland event, but how much nicer would it look if repainted into the dark blue with a red roof livery it wore while with its main owner, South Notts of Gotham, who bought it from Jackson at a fairly early stage in its working career? Did any other Roadmasters survive to the present day?
Neville Mercer
21/08/12 – 20:34
Two of these coaches survive. The other is MAL 310, a South Notts PSU1/11 new in 1951. South Notts also owned LOE 300 for a time.
Philip Lamb
22/08/12 – 06:10
Livery makes such a difference, Pete – as does the fact that the Guy is photographed in black and white and the Leyland is, literally, in glorious colour. Lighter shades tend to flatter – which is no doubt why large operators of this era used “reverse” livery for coaches.
David Oldfield
22/08/12 – 06:11
The registration number RSK 615 is almost certainly an age related DVLA allocation thus inferring that the LOE 300 registration has or may have been lost at some stage. If it is being driven wearing LOE 300 then hopefully the number has been regained replacing the age related one.
Richard Leaman
22/08/12 – 06:11
I wonder how many of these Jackson of Castle Bromwich had, because South Notts purchased two of them, LOE 300 and LOE 900, both in 1957. As Neville says, South Notts were the main operator, having obtained around thirteen years service out of them. Together with their own MAL 310 purchased new and MRR 974 with Leyland bus body, it was quite an impressive fleet of Royal Tigers for a small independent!
Chris Barker
22/08/12 – 10:23
Pete. If you scrutinise the two photographs carefully for differences: (i) Livery (ii) Mouldings (iii) Position of emergency door (central on Guy) partly causing (iv) different windows (pairs on Leyland put two singles in middle of Guy) Drop ventilators on Guy and Hoppers on Leyland. Mouldings include front panel on Leyland for spare wheel. Question for everyone. Hoppers? How common was this in 1950. Still the same body, though. Similar difference could be seen on other bodies, including later Duples – in particular between bodies on different chassis.
David Oldfield
22/08/12 – 11:08
Thank you, David.
Pete Davies
22/08/12 – 14:47
As Chris B says, LOE300 spent approx 13 years with South Notts; it then passed to the British Legion (later Royal British Legion) at Gotham who kept it for many more years.
My photo shows it on Queens Drive, Nottingham in 1988/9, towards the end of its time with them. How nice to see it preserved and active again.
Bob Gell
23/08/12 – 07:13
Good bit of parking or pioneering low-step access for the old lads?! More seriously, I thought the (unavoidably) off-centre Leyland badge had been added as a restoration trimming, but apparently not.
Joe
23/08/12 – 07:14
Now that’s a classy livery, well suited to the beading. Presumably this was is South Notts colours?
Paul Haywood
23/08/12 – 07:15
Another unique point about the South Notts trio of Roadmasters is that the one they bought new, MAL 310 was 7ft 6in wide, whereas these two were 8ft wide.
Chris Barker
23/08/12 – 10:48
Regarding MAL 310 being a 7ft 6in wide vehicle (and a bus rather than a coach) – this probably has to do with the routes it was planned for. I don’t ever remember seeing single deckers on the Nottingham – Gotham – Loughborough main line service. Single deckers operated the Nottingham – Kegworth village service with quite a few narrow roads and tight bends. Most were short workings to Barton in Fabis or Thrumpton, and the others included or omitted West Leake and/or Kingston on Soar according to market day, the state of the moon, and whether there was an R in the month – a typical rural bus service of the 50s. From memory, I think it was previously run with conductor operated half-cabs.
Stephen Ford
23/08/12 – 10:48
There’s a nice colour shot of LOE 300 in South Notts livery in Malcolm Keeley’s excellent book “Midland Red Days”. I didn’t know about it’s time with the British Legion, so thanks for that photograph – she looks rather nice in blue and yellow! Also thanks to Philip Lamb for reminding me that MAL still exists. My personal favourite livery on this type was that of Bamber Bridge MS who had two of them in red and black, one a narrow 7 ft 6 in, the other an 8ft wide version. It’s about time a diecast manufacturer tackled this one again – it’s been a long time since the 1/72 scale Dinky Toy and there are lots of good liveries available even though it was a comparatively rare prototype.
Neville Mercer
23/08/12 – 14:19
Some interesting thoughts from Stephen. There was an oddity reported on the BBC news channel several weeks ago about a market day service in the Milton Keynes area. It operates only on the FIFTH Tuesday in the month, so maybe three or four times a year. Why, the reporter was asking, not EVERY Tuesday? In the Nottingham and Gotham area, I’d be surprised if the mischief makers among the local bus fans did not spend time amending the signs to BARTON IS FAB . . . And Thrumpton, that’s where the fire brigade in the children’s television show was based, wasn’t it?
Pete Davies
24/08/12 – 08:15
There’s also a train that goes only one way (I believe from Stockport to Stalybridge) and doesn’t return. I think that is only when there’s a Q in the month as well!
David Oldfield
24/08/12 – 08:15
Alan Townsin’s Duple book confirms that the Guy had a later version of the Roadmaster body than LOE 300, after what he calls “some tidying up”. The hopper windows were standard on the early models, later reverting to the more usual full-drop type seen on the Guy. Red & White Group were the biggest Roadmaster customer, the parent company taking 1 Leyland and 14 Guys, with a further 7 Guys for the United Welsh fleet.
Peter Williamson
24/08/12 – 08:32
South Notts own Royal Tiger/Duple Roadmaster (fleet number 42, MAL 310) had 45 seats. This was one more than the Royal Tiger with the Leyland bus body (fleet number 45, MRR 974) that seated 44 due to the emergency exit being in the rear wall of the body. The Royal Tiger badge was fixed in the centre of the front panels on 42, rather than offset to the nearside as with 63 (LOE 900) and 64 (LOE 300). Numbers 63 & 64 both seated 41 passengers. Sorry, Neville – South Notts painted the roof maroon on their buses.
Michael Elliott
24/08/12 – 12:29
Michael, I lived in Nottingham for several years and can assure you that South Notts COACHES used to have a red roof. You’re thinking of their double-decker buses which did indeed carry maroon as their top colour. The red roof on coaches seems to have been abandoned on new vehicles or repaints after about 1960, but the maroon roof on ‘deckers continued until the time of the NCT take-over.
Neville Mercer
25/08/12 – 07:26
Thanks Neville for your info on South Notts coach livery pre circa 1960. I’m a ‘native’ of Nottingham and we moved to Clifton in 1953 (when I was three) so over the years I’ve been very familiar with South Notts buses. Certainly South Notts double deckers had maroon tops and wings and initially also had cream lower deck window surrounds but, from my memory, this was soon dropped and blue window surrounds with a cream cant rail and waist rail (depending on whether the vehicle concerned had a waist rail) adopted instead. My memories of South Notts single deck buses (principally the Royal Tiger bus, known as ‘the coffin’) is that these had maroon tops also. I have to say that these are memories from age nine/ten when I started to take a ‘more informed view’ on buses. On the question of the ‘Roadmasters’ my memories are of them with maroon tops, as are my memories of the Bedford OBs and the Leyland PS1/Duple ‘A’ type, which latterly became a snow plough. Later coaches, such as the Bedford SBs and VAMs had a livery incorporating two shades of blue. By the way keep up the good work with the ‘Independents’ series of books. I look forward to treating myself to a copy of the North Wales volume.
Michael Elliott
25/08/12 – 10:56
Thanks for the kind words, Michael. On the South Notts front you’ve made me doubt myself enough to look through a few picture books to check the coach livery. As well as the previously mentioned shot of LOE 300 in Malcolm Keeley’s book (definitely a bright red top!) I’ve also found two shots of South Notts OB/Duple Vistas with the red roof. It’s a pity that they didn’t continue with this livery variation into the 1960s/70s – by the time I lived in Nottingham the coaches were all-over blue which did them no favours.
Neville Mercer
26/08/12 – 07:40
During 1934 both Barton and South Notts, as associated companies, introduced maroon roofs wings to all their vehicles as a form of corporate identity. Barton having held a 50% share in South Notts since 1929. Maroon was replaced by a light shade of blue on single deckers during 1961 and with the repainting of 117 in 1986 to celebrate 60 years of operation the maroon was dropped, but retaining indigo and cream as the original livery. This was so well received it was decided to standardize this on their double deckers and several were so treated. Royal Tiger No.42 MAL 310 was a dual purpose vehicle, not a bus and was used on private hire and often hired to Barton for their express services. The two ex Jackson Royal Tigers in fact stood in Barton’s Chilwell garage yard for several months and at least one (No.64 LOE 300) ran in service with South Notts in Jackson’s green/grey livery.
Alan Oxley
11/10/12 – 07:22
I was surprised to read in Neville Mercer’s post (above) that of the two Roadmasters with Bamber Bridge Motor Service one was 7’6″ wide and the other 8′, since they were both from the same batch (of three?) new to Scout Motor Services, and it has always been my understanding that the entire batch were 7’6″. Any more bids?
David Call
17/01/15 – 06:17
This bus is part of our vintage collection at BelleVue Manchester Ltd. Any questions you may have I can forward on to The Walsh Bros. Kenny Walsh is the maintenance Director at BelleVue and he is one half of the Walsh Bros who perform restorations on a variety of classics.
Donna Thompson
01/06/15 – 07:22
The South Notts Worldmasters had maroon tops. I went on one to Dudley Zoo on a school trip – my first solo outing. It was similar to Barton’s maroon as there had always been connections between the two companies. They often did the Saturday services to Gotham and Thrumpton etc from Huntingdon St bus station as well as private hire and duplicates. P54 Malcolm Keeley – Midland Red Days does indeed show LOE 300 with a maroon roof exactly the same as the two South Notts Leyland buses behind. This is probably a Saturday with the Leyland PDs doing a short working to Gotham and the regular service to Loughborough (18-30 departures?). The Thrumpton bus would turn off before Gotham and was usually lightly loaded. Alan Oxley’s South Notts book (1985) is one of my cherished possessions and I would highly recommend it if you can get hold of a copy. Oxford Diecast models intend to make a 1/76th scale model of a Worldmaster in Belle Vue Coaches livery-this one? More details will emerge.
David O’Brien
02/06/15 – 07:06
David, hate to be pedantic but these are Duple ROADmasters, not Worldmasters. Worldmaster was a brand-name used by Leyland for export versions of their Royal Tiger chassis. Also, while I accept that most South Notts vehicles had maroon roof trim, nobody has addressed the issue of bright red being shown in various published photographs detailed above. I’m aware of the “false colour” which many early types of slide film produced (as is anybody who has bought a book about Ribble!) but the examples given are beyond that. If the colours in the photo’s mentioned are wrong then I suspect that they were altered during production of the books in question. Anybody got any thoughts?
Neville Mercer
03/06/15 – 06:21
That is a valid point, Neville. Not only did different makes of colour film, slide and negative, give greatly varying results, often exacerbated by sloppy laboratory processing, but we now exist in an age of Photoshop and similar computer programs that allow image modification to a degree way beyond the old darkroom techniques. I confess to using the modern methods to get a reasonable result from my elderly slides, and I very much doubt if most published pictures are truly accurate in colour rendition. One does try to get it right, but, perhaps, our increasingly high mileage memories are probably not the best judges of the original liveries. One would really need a paint chart to match the most important colours of the original scheme for a true result.
Roger Cox
03/06/15 – 06:22
To answer my own query (11/10/12) it would appear that the three Scout Roadmasters were a mixture of 7’6″ and 8’0″. BLOTW has DRN 355 as 7’6″ and DRN 356/7 as 8’0″, but the Peter Gould fleetlist gives DRN 357 as 7’6″. All the available evidence indicates that the Peter Gould version is correct, if this is the case then the two which went to BBMS were indeed one of each width. In respect of three Leyland-bodied PD2s new to Scout at much the same time (DRN 364-6), Peter Gould has the first two as 8’0″ wide and the third as 7’6″. BLOTW gives them all as 8’0″, but given the mixture of Roadmaster widths I suppose it’s quite possible that the PD2s were mixed width also.
David Call
28/10/15 – 07:13
Yes, colour films of the era each had their own characteristics: principally, Kodachrome (perhaps the most widely-used colour films at the time) produced vivid representations of reds. Other films were more subdued (and perhaps more realistic). Maroon appearing as bright red: I can believe it!
Allen
28/03/16 – 17:16
“SK” was indeed a Caithness CC registration originally, but with so few registrations issued by this authority, registration marks BSK to YSK were allocated by DVLA to various VROs throughout UK for “age-related” re-registrations between 3/90 and 3/92.
Andy
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/08/20 – 05:26
LOE 300 was sold in 11/18 to James Baile of Nassington. His mother runs a wedding and conference venue Prebendal Manor, Nassington, pics of it appear on their FB page, it was being used as an office in April this year! https://www.facebook.com/ so not sure what his plans are for it. It won’t do it much good if left outside!
Pennine Motor Services 1962 Leyland Leopard Duple DP41F
Here is a photo of 5895 YG, Leyland Leopard with Duple body, in the fleet of Pennine Motor Services, then in Gargrave. I took the photo in Morecambe in June 1970. Note the SALOPIA vehicle alongside. This vehicle was the last of four of this style, the other three being on Tiger Cubs UWX 277, 6108 WU and 9712 WX, so close inspection shows subtle changes over the years. The next new addition was 240 CWY, which Roger Cox posted elsewhere on the site a while ago.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
15/08/12 – 08:06
Herewith the conundrum as to what constitutes a C or a DP. Yelloway thought they were too bus like and only bought one batch but most things, including the entrance door, make this look more like a C than a DP. The same thing befell the Sheffield Transport Leopard/Burlinghams which were DP because they were based on a modified bus design rather than the Seagull – but they were really just as much coaches as their Weymann Fanfare and ECW contemporaries.
David Oldfield
15/08/12 – 11:34
Interesting point, David. From an operational point of view, the issue of whether a vehicle was a C or a DP generally depended on three factors: use, seating and livery. As OMO became more prevalent, provincial operators realised that front entrances enabled relatively easy and cheaper downgrading, especially if the eventual fate of new vehicles was considered when they were bought. As for external appearance, a sensitive compromise was needed: too bus like, and passengers might feel they were being offered second best if they expected a coach; too coach like could mean problems displaying stage carriage destinations later in life.
Roy Burke
15/08/12 – 11:55
I’m not sure if it was still known as the ‘Donnington’ by this time but it definitely improved with age (like we do!) When it was first introduced, it had too many shallow side windows, perhaps a throwback to the old ‘Roadmaster’ design. This one, with just five deeper side windows is a great improvement and looks very nice. Yelloways were of the original design which would explain why they didn’t like them!
Chris Barker
15/08/12 – 14:47
The screen and front dome of the Donnington were shared with contemporary Willowbrook Viscount (cf Devon General). [Interesting how Duple recycled two Willowbrook names – Viceroy and Viscount.]
David Oldfield
15/08/12 – 14:48
The five bay version was known as the Donington 2 and was used by, among others, MacBraynes. I produced a resin kit of it in fact! The design was built by the Duple Midland operation and was effectively superseded by the Britannia, which was very popular and shared the same front grille mouldings.
Andrew Goodwin
16/08/12 – 07:33
The correct spelling is Donington with one “n” – the body was named after the Donington Park motor-racing circuit close to the Duple Midland works in Loughborough. Donnington with “two ns” is in Shropshire. As you say this version of the Donington (actually its third incarnation since the first prototype was built in 1956 – the first version was built from 1957-58 and lacked the “chain” motif in the front panel) is by far the most attractive due to the deeper windows. I’m left a bit confused by the comment that “the Donington was replaced by the Britannia”. The Britannia design was first introduced in 1956 and the last were produced in 1962, the same year in which the Donington was deleted from the Duple catalogue. Both models were replaced for the 1963 season by a choice of either the (Hendon built) Commodore or (Blackpool built) Commander. Dual purpose options then became the preserve of the Willowbrook subsidiary and were built to “BET standard” design.
Neville Mercer
16/08/12 – 14:24
Yes Neville, I assumed that the draughtsmen who wrote “Donington” on the drawings knew what they were doing! I didn’t actually say it was replaced by the Britannia but my choice of words was perhaps unfortunate. What I meant to convey was the relative popularity of the Britannia as against the Donington leaving the latter with fewer sales. As you will no doubt tell us there were at least three versions of the Britannia as well! Reference the comment above about Willowbrook model names being recycled, Park Royal also did this with the name Royalist though the second version was anything but successful, not helped by being initially built on a second-string chassis rather than a front line player.
Andrew Goodwin
17/08/12 – 07:07
You’re quite right, Andrew, there were several versions of the Britannia. The original version, brought to market in 1956 to replace the Elizabethan, had a curved waist-rail and introduced the “chain motif” to the Duple range. All of this first version had front entrances, but were offered alongside the Britannic which had a central entrance and retained more of the styling of the Elizabethan. The Britannic was quietly dropped from the catalogue in 1957 and few were sold. The second version of the Britannia formed part of a new range of designs exhibited at the 1958 CMS at Earls Court and shared many components with the new version of the Super Vega built on Bedford SB chassis. Basically similar bodies (but at that stage nameless) were also offered on Ford and Commer chassis. As far as I can tell from my own records the Mk II Britannia was only available with a front entrance at first, but from 1960 onwards a new central entrance design with a much more curved profile at the front end was also offered. The most famous of these were probably the examples operated by Samuelsons in London and St Helens Corporation. There were minor detail changes to both front and central entrance versions in 1961, but you really have to look hard to see the difference – a tiny destination blind incorporated into the front bumper is the most visible clue. By 1962 orders for both Britannias and for the Donington had reduced to a trickle due to competitive pressure from the much more stylish offerings from Plaxton and Harrington. Duple realised that it was losing its share of the heavyweight coach market, dumped the Britannia, Donington, Willowbrook Viking and Viscount, and the entire sadly bastardised Burlingham range from the catalogue, and replaced the lot with the Commander (with vertical window pillars) and the short-lived Commodore (with a “Bella” style raked back pillar towards the rear). Sorry to go on, but as you might have noticed I have a thing about pre-1965 coach designs!
Neville Mercer
17/08/12 – 07:08
David and Roy have a valid point. Shortly after I joined Armstrong Galley ‘the coaching division of T&W PTE’ we took delivery of 15 Leyland Leopards GBB 985/999N fleet numbers 85/99 – 86/95 were 53 seaters with DP doors, but still had the comfort and overall look of a coach, and 96/99 were 45 seaters with coach doors, However, 85 was a totally different animal, it was in actual fact the first Alexander ‘T’ type ‘rumour has it that one or two of the Scottish bus group companies weren’t too pleased about it going to T&W’ but back to the plot, the vehicle itself was first class, but with the best will in the world it was a bus with coach seats. A/G did quite a lot of hire work for National Travel,and a fair amount of contract work, so 85 was always first choice for that, it was later transferred to the stage carriage fleet, and I think it was sold on after that
Ronnie Hoye
Sorry, should have said that the 14 coaches were Duple bodied
17/08/12 – 07:11
Externally all forms of the Donington look like buses to me, except when dolled up with Britannia/Vega trim, as here //sct61.org.uk/ It’s amazing what a few bits of metal and an association of ideas can do!
Peter Williamson
21/08/12 – 07:41
Castle Donington (one n in the middle!). The village has long suffered having people mis-spell its name, just as many folk think it is in Derbyshire because of the postal address, but it is in Leicestershire. The Duple Donington body. Duple purchased the business of Nudd Brothers and Lockyer in 1952, renaming it Duple (Midland) Motor Bodies. Nudd’s premises were a hanger on the former Castle Donington airfield, now East Midlands Airport. Nudd had experience of metal framed bodywork, hence the Duple interest and the name of the design of the Duple metal framed body. The technology of the time may have resulted in the rather angular design and the small windows used at first.
Mr Anon
01/08/14 – 16:29
I found the comment on ‘DP’ v ‘C’ interesting, as I’ve never been quite sure where the difference lay, and there are clearly several ‘grey areas’. One of my main questions is how the Ribble PDR1 ‘White Lady’ Atlanteans justify the designation ‘coach’, at least among enthusiasts. The roughly contemporary Leopards with BET-style bodies by Marshall and MCW are always referred to as ‘DP’, though in terms of comfort, style or usage there was little to distinguish them from the Altlanteans; if anything the Leopards were marginally more coach-like internally and ventured further afield. But both types were effectively buses fitted with headrest seats and luggage racks, and consequently had the claustrophobic feel of being packed with a lot of stuff that they were not really designed for. Both were mainly used on relatively short inter-urban express services, at least one of which (the X43 Manchester-Skipton) was actually a stage carriage route at its country end. Doses it really just boil down to the double-deckers’ almost all-ivory livery, compared with rather more red on the saloons? But then in NBC days the Atlanteans (by then well past their unimpressive best) were given service bus livery, while the Leopards got the DP treatment! Was it just that the Atlanteans hijacked the justified ‘C’ designation of their upmarket cousins, the ‘Gay Hostesses’? And as for the earlier generation of Titan ‘White Ladies’ — though admittedly I’m too young to remember very much about them — how could anything lowbridge ever really be called a coach, however much chrome you put on the outside?
Keith
15/10/19 – 05:48
This coach finished it’s day parked along the workshop at Berresford Motors Limited in the role of mess room. I believe it was still in situ when the business was sold to PMT.
City Coach Company (Brentwood) 1938 Leyland TEP1 Gnu Duple C40C
This vehicle was the third and last TEP1 chassis and was delivered new to the City Coach Co in August 1938 as fleet number G1. City’s later Gnus were of chassis type TEC2. When new the Duple bodywork was in C40C lay-out. The vehicle was sold to a dealer in May 1948 and then re-sold to E Wright of Southend-on-Sea (trading as Grey Luxury Coaches) in the following month, becoming Wright’s fleet number 8. Wright withdrew it in June 1951 and it next appeared with Taylor of Caterham in May 1952 as fleet number 16. Taylor traded it in to the Arlington Motor Co dealership in November 1954 and by June 1956 it was reported to be with an “unidentified showman”. Does anybody know when it was last licensed? I bought the original 10×8 print (which now hangs in my flat!) from a second-hand stall and have no idea who the original photographer was nor where the picture was taken. Can anybody identify the location?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Neville Mercer
27/03/16 – 09:58
Ooh! 25 years or so before the Bedford VAL . . .
Pete Davies
28/03/16 – 15:07
Four-wheel steering PSV’s were a very rare breed. The Leyland Gnu (supposed to have a silent G but that all stopped with Flanders & Swann’s song) was not only a rare beast with its four-wheel steering, but also with its set back front axle, like the Maudslay SF40/Magnum, but not looking so sleek.
Another example was London Transport’s 1939 chassisless all-Leyland Class X7 four-wheel steering trolleybus 1671 (DTD 649) which was unique in the fleet and scrapped in 1955. It was conceived, and was successful at, reducing tyre-scrub problems on the conventional six-wheeled trolleys and considered to have light steering, but was not repeated.
Chris Hebbron
29/03/16 – 05:54
There were only ever three of the Gnu TEP1 built, the other two being 40 seat front-entrance saloons bodied by and operating for Walter Alexander & Sons Ltd. Unlike the later TEC2 which was a PSV conversion of the Steer TEC1 lorry, not only was there a substantial front overhang, but also the radiator (of Tiger pattern) was off-set to the nearside to allow the 8.6 litre engine to be mounted further forward to improve passenger access. Here’s an Alexander official picture of the first one: www.flickr.com/photos/ The steering was not (unlike the VAL) power assisted.
Stephen Allcroft
29/03/16 – 05:54
Interesting that the trolleybus has a Lancashire DTD registration. Was it originally a Leyland demonstrator?
Philip Halstead
29/03/16 – 09:08
Not exactly, Philip. It was a one-off experiment with Leyland chassis and body to mimic LPTB’s trolleybus “house style”; a sort of demonstrator, but with LPTB very much in mind! This would not have been hard, as Leyland had built some London chassisless trolleybuses, to order, a year or two before. Electrical equipment was by Metrovick. It was run in London for about six months, then bought by LPTB, perhaps because, despite the war having started, trolleybus expansion was still running at pre-war levels in London and, with prescience, they wanted all they could get!
Chris Hebbron
29/03/16 – 10:54
Following on from Stephen A’s post, here are some photos of Gnu models painted in City and Alexander colours; all four sides. The page is slow to load, then go 1/3rd down the page. You can double-click to magnify. //tinyurl.com/zqgd4fh
Chris Hebbron
29/03/16 – 11:50
The City Coach Co. like Birch Bros., was partly able to keep out of London Transport’s clutches, because of its long-distance service to Southend. And the pair of them used vehicles which maximised customer payload. Birch used double deckers a lot, including Leyland Titanics and City used single-deck six-wheelers. Here is an eclectic selection of them, notably the Leyland PS2/11 with trailing front axle! //tinyurl.com/ztpnx68
Chris Hebbron
29/03/16 – 14:00
Some of those views mentioned by Chris Hebbron (29/03/16 – 11.50) have what look to be ‘Foden-ish’ front panels. Or are my eyes playing tricks again?
Pete Davies
30/03/16 – 05:42
Yes Pete, they are “Foden-ish” in their looks, but that’s the limit of it. There’s no Foden element in any of these Leylands. I suppose that a Foden designer might have seen them and worked on a similar design (or did someone working with pre-war Leyland transfer to Foden later?) But these are all fascinating buses and coaches. The images of the models in Chris H’s link is also interesting. It was worth comparing the dimensions of the NGT SE6 with those of the Leyland Gnu – two different pre-war approaches before Midland Red led the way with the under-floor engined S6 saloon in 1946 for the rest of the world to follow.
Michael Hampton
31/03/16 – 06:31
Thanks for the above Michael, but I think it was a Duple designer who styled the front of the City TEC2s and not a Leyland one, Leyland Steer cabs of the time had an exposed radiator. The post war Leyland cab strongly resmbled the Ale3xander bodied Gnus however. Of course the Northern SE6 and SE4 were the work of Donald Sinclair who then became chief engineer at Midland Red. And let’s not forget the Panda which was twin steering and mid-engined; originally designed for an abortive LT enquiry, it had only a short front overhang, however Alexander were keen on the twin steering concept and even wanted a twin-steer Titan…
Stephen Allcroft
01/04/16 – 06:55
These postings do generate a lot of little-known information, don’t they? ” . . . and informative copy” is a very apt motto!
Pete Davies
01/04/16 – 06:56
The twin steer is alive & well in Melbourne Australia, a BusTech CDi
John Wakefield
01/04/16 – 14:25
John- there is a Swedish coach company called Froggy Tours, and yes I have seen them in France, which uses Setra and Neoplan double-deck coaches with 4-axles three of which steer, I think. Seen with their luggage trailers, too, they are quite a rig!
Joe
02/04/16 – 06:33
Michael H mentioned Midland Red’s S6 model, which made me plot the stages of moving bus engines from front to back of the vehicles, a feat which took from 1932 to 1950; a mere 28 years, certainly less had the war not intervened. John Rackham”s “Q” class vehicle first saw the light of day in September 1932 with the LGOC, with a vertical engine mounted behind the offside front wheel. This avoided the need for a high floor which later underfloor-engined vehicles suffered from. Nevertheless, apart from London Transport taking 233 single deckers and five double deckers, the remaining UK sales amounted to penny numbers. London”s had long lives, mostly going in 1952/53, many being sold on, even to Malta. Northern General”s first 30 foot long six-wheeler SE6 (later four-wheel LSE4), designed by G W Hayter (NGT Chief Engineer) & W G Allen, was was registered in 1934 and had a true underfloor engine. This was the first of 131 vehicles, of which 24 were the four wheel SE4″s. The Leyland Tiger FEC (LPTB”s TF class) had underfloor engines, the prototype being delivered in December 1937, with the remaining 87, delivered in 1939, but they were to to be purely destined for London Transport, although the war suppressed any opportunity to market them elsewhere. They were 27″ 6″ long and seated 34, but these were Green Line/private hire vehicles. They were in store or used as ambulances, during the war up until 1946, when Green Line services resumed. Sound vehicles, the last, nevertheless, went in mid-1953, with low mileages, a victim of LT”s obsession with standardisation, using the RF. The Leyland Panda was produced after an enquiry by LPTB, who later lost interest, hence the vehicle entering service with Walter Alexander. The chassis had an underfloor engine, like the Leyland FEC. Alexander built the body, which had 45 seats and a centre entrance. Towards the end of the war, Midland Red R&D built some prototype chassis (S1-S5) chassis, designed to take a rear engine, but, with the arrival of Donald Sinclair, as chief engineer, from Northern General, (who oversaw the creation of the SE6/SE4), these chassis being altered to take an underfloor engine. The result was the S6, the first one of which was built in December 1946 and entering service in February 1947, the first of 100 vehicles. Again, they remained solely with Midland Red, being retired in the 1960″s. How these subsequent events might have changed, had a successful rear-engined vehicle emerged from S1-5! It was Sentinel who first offered an underfloor-engined vehicle to the open market, displaying two complete models at the Commercial Motor Show in 1948. For the first time, here was a model which could have transformed the then current thinking of the wider bus world, but, sadly, an outmoded, thirsty engine with high fuel consumption somewhat insecurely mounted underneath, with at least engine falling onto the road, somewhat dampened enthusiasm to buy – a tragedy really. Slightly later came the Leyland Olympic, introduced in 1949, a single-decker, with in integral body, under which was a horizontal version of the ubiquitous O.600 engine, with over 3,500 being built between 1949 and 1971. These rugged and reliable vehicles were exported around the world, proving very popular. The underfloor-engined bus had finally arrived! Then, in September 1950, Foden succeeded in producing the first rear-engined bus in the UK, the PVRF6, but it was not a big seller. It was another eight years before Leyland launched the game-changing Atlantean at the 1958 Commercial Motor Show.
Chris Hebbron
03/04/16 – 07:30
The first rear-engined PSV was actually delivered in 1937 – the prototype Leyland REC (Rear-Engined Cub), London Transport’s CR class. 48 production examples followed. As Ian Smith astutely points out on his website, the concept was exactly the same as the Dennis Dart of 50 years later. Details at www.countrybus.org/CR/CR.html
Peter Williamson
03/04/16 – 08:56
The Tilling-Stevens Successor of 1937 was a true underfloor engined design, albeit one that failed, primarily because the horizontally opposed eight cylinder engine kept breaking its crankshafts. It is believed that neither of the two constructed ever ran with the eight cylinder engine, but what ultimately became of these remarkable chassis is shrouded in the mists of time.
Roger Cox
03/04/16 – 10:32
Thx Peter/Roger, for reminding me of my omissions, especially that of the CR’s, although I should have remembered the Successor, too, since there is my thread about LT1000’s second body, which was taken off the Successor’s chassis! When you consider that the late thirties relationship between LPTB and Leyland was so innovative, which, initially included the Panda, it surprises me that Leyland were so slow in marketing underfloor/rear-engined postwar. The CR was a little unreliable, true, but there was a war on before snags could be ironed out and these mainly surplus, unloved ‘babies’ after the war, were too small for ‘big boys’ work!
Chris Hebbron
31/05/16 – 06:17
I’ve found a little footage of London Transport”s 1939 chassisless all-Leyland Class X7 four-wheel steering trolleybus 1671 (DTD 649). Go to the link and start at 2:10 mins – LINK: //tinyurl.com/jfxfchl
Chris Hebbron
01/06/16 – 06:49
May I add a few points to the above entries. Under Mr. L.G. Wyndham-Shire, Midland Red produced its first rear engined bus early in 1935. Between May and October of that year, it completed 25,000 miles in service. It had a transverse mounted petrol engine, Daimler fluid flywheel and Cotal gearbox (two-pedal control), and the entrance was in front of the front wheels. It was followed by one coach and two more buses (all designated type REC) in 1935/6. Their downfall was overheating and ingress of dirt into the engines (which still sounds familiar!) Their “conversion” to underfloor engine (one wonders how much actually remained) was probably under consideration before the war and the arrival of Mr. D.M. Sinclair. Between 1941 and 1944, they appeared, one a year, as 40 seat buses, types S1, S2, S3 and S4 with mechanical and body variations. The S5 was completely new and differed in being of integral construction.
Mr Anon
28/05/19 – 07:02
The photo of the ex-City coach Leyland Gnu was taken by the late Richard Butler, who died recently. I believe it was photographed at Derby in the late 1950’s. Richard took many shots of buses and coaches on the fairgrounds around that time. I suspect this one was probably unique on the grounds.
Highland Omnibuses Ltd 1952 Guy Arab UF Duple C37F
Back in the days of half-cabs, most coaches were distinguishable from single-deck buses by their window line. On buses this was straight and level, but on coaches it usually formed a gentle curve from the focal point of bonnet and cab down towards the rear. Later, when the engine of heavyweight coaches disappeared under the floor, there was no longer such a strong focal point, and at first the coach building industry was undecided as to whether to continue in the old tradition or to produce something as straight and symmetrical as the new chassis. Duple hedged its bets and did both, offering a choice between the curvy Ambassador and the straight-laced Roadmaster. Nicknamed the Iron Duke by those who built it, the Roadmaster was famously much more successful as a Dinky Toy model than it was in the real world, but it did have one big fan in the Red & White group, which purchased 21 spacious 37-seaters on Guy Arab UF chassis as well as a lone Leyland Royal Tiger. After withdrawal, some of the Arab UFs were sold to Highland Omnibuses, an avid Guy user, for bus work, where they formed an unusually sumptuous form of local transport! This one was photographed in Inverness Bus Station in June 1968.
To view a shot of the Ambassador body style click here.
Photograph and copy contributed by Peter Williamson
23/06/12 – 05:54
I find it surprising that some of the really obscure “real” vehicles seem to have been incredibly popular when converted to toy or model form. The Roadmaster is a classis example, along with the Dinky Commer/Harrington in BOAC livery. I suppose it must have depended on the original operators’ preferences, but these Roadmasters look considerably different from those which Standerwick had, and on which the Dinky seems to be based.
Pete Davies
KWO 37 is a Duple WORLDMASTER not a Roadmaster. Ex Red and White. Similarities with the ‘Roadmaster’ are obvious.
Red & White Services 1949 Guy Arab III Duple L27/26RD
Sometime ago a comment was sent in by David Wilder for the Eastern Scottish AEC Regent posting regarding Red & White having had very pleasing Duple body Guy Arab IIIs. Above is a great shot contributed by Andrew Charles who took this shot in 2005 of a very well preserved Red & White Arab III lowbridge Duple. Andrew also forwarded the following copy to go with the shot: “This shot was taken in the grounds of what was then Stroud College during the running day organised by the Stroud RE Group. This site is now under houses but the event goes from strength to strength at the site of the new college. The significance of the bus being at Stroud was of course that in pre Bristol Omnibus days Stroud was a Red & White outpost, we tend to think of them as a Welsh / Forest of Dean operator but they did once go further afield.” The Red & White Guy is not quite as elaborately decorated as the Eastern Scottish Regent as it only has the one decoration band above the lower saloon windows although there as been a United Services posting with decoration above and below the lower saloon windows. I suppose the purchaser had the choice of where and if it was decorated, I have included below the two shots mentioned the Eastern Scottish on the Left and the United Services on the right
Photograph by P Haywood
This posting is of course open to comments and any other shots of decorative Duple double deckers.
Main photograph & part copy contributed by Andrew Charles
Another Red & White subsidiary, Cheltenham & District, took delivery of five virtually identical vehicles to the above in 1950/51, running them until 1966. There was discussion with the Eastern Scottish Regent as to whether there were only lowbridge versions of this handsome bodywork, The book ‘Cheltenham’s Buses 1939-1980’ shows them to be H31/26R, and from a close look at the photos, I believe that they were highbridge examples. They, too, had the thick aluminium strip, although they did not have a safety bar across the front upstairs windows inside. Fleet numbers were 74-78 (JDG786-790).
Chris Hebbron
15/03/11 – 06:24
Of course, Red & White also supplied some new Duple-bodied Guy Arab Mk111’s to its subsidiary fleets, including 4 to Venture of Basingstoke (HOT 391-4) with highbridge bodies and 2 lowbirdge examples to Newbury & District Motor Services (FMO 515/6), along with a highbridge example (FMO 517). The latter was originally intended for Venture, and after a short time the Basingstoke examples were transferred to the N&D fleet in the interests of standardisation. All then remained in service at Newbury until withdrawal in 1968. You can read the full story in my new book The Newbury & District Motor Services Story.
Paul Lacey
15/05/11 – 17:59
One day I was driving towards Bolton through the Lancashire town of Leigh. I am sure I saw a Guy Arab in Red and White very faded colours parked in a mill. I assume it had been or was being used as a staff bus for the mill workers. This must have been around the mid 1980’s. Has anyone any information on the fate of the vehicle.
R D Hughes
29/08/11 – 08:07
These where ordered by Red & White; but arrived shortly after a depot swop with Bristol Omnibus; Stroud and Cheltenham went to B.O.C. while R & W had services in the Forest of Dean/Wye Valley/Hereford from B.O.C. They had high bodies no rear doors, and spent most of their days on the St. Marks routes, in Cheltenham. Lovely buses even to the end of their days, The Red & White ones were low bodies with doors and ran in the Forest/Monmouth area. The sad point being Cheltenham District did not fit in with B.O.C. as well as it did with Red & White. Red & White retained its Coach operation, at Montpellier Spa Depot, for a number of years, before basing its Cheltenham Coaches at the Black & White Coach Station for a number of years, until the birth of National Express.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1949 Guy Arab III Duple L27/26RD
HWO 344 was a 1949 Guy Arab III with Duple L53RD body, in the fleet of Provincial, Gosport & Fareham. She’s been relegated to duty as a training vehicle and is seen outside the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton on the same dull lunchtime as my view of the Southern Vectis Bristol Lodekka KDL 414 in March 1974, which was published a few weeks ago. She is an exile from Red & White (L1949 in their fleet) and is of course a sister vehicle to L1749 which features in the excellent “Gallery” by Ken Morgan titled Red and White Guy L1749.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
29/11/12 – 07:41
Copyright Diesel Dave
I was pleasantly surprised to see the photo of the Provincial Duple bodied Guy Arab III trainer T1 as I had recently been looking through some of my old photos which included a photo of the same bus taken in the early 70’s at the Provincial Hoeford garage.
Diesel Dave
29/11/12 – 10:08
Nice view, Dave! Brighter than mine, of course, since it was taken in sunshine. It’s always seemed a pity to me that there is no fleet name on the side of the vehicle.
Pete Davies
29/11/12 – 11:09
It did have its own identity, though; the minute T1 amidst the signs! I wonder how many trainers they had.
Chris Hebbron
29/11/12 – 16:12
Chris, so far as I am aware, there’s only ever been one trainer in use at a time. The last I recall seeing was a Bristol FLF (EMR 295D) ex Wilts & Dorset, and it didn’t seem to have a T prefix to the fleet number. It did, however, have the Provincial fleet name in NBC style.
Edinburgh Corporation 1943 Guy Arab II Duple/Nudd H31/24R
This unusual but nonetheless attractive-looking Guy Arab II was new in 1943 to London Transport as its G77 (GLL 577), and was originally fitted with utility bodywork by Park Royal. A Gardner 5LW engine provided the power. It was withdrawn from London service in 1952 and sold to Edinburgh C.T, who had the chassis rebodied by Duple/Nudd in 1953. As can be seen, it was given a full front and concealed radiator by the bodybuilder. However, the front nearside ‘windscreen’ and side window next to the bonnet were not glazed, probably as an aid to maintenance as regards access to the engine. Interestingly it was re-registered by ECT on rebodying. Could this indicate that the chassis was fully overhauled by ECT prior to the new body being fitted? The photo shows the vehicle in preservation, and isn’t that livery just beautiful?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
29/12/13 – 10:00
Thanks for posting, Brendan. I’ve not yet seen this vehicle “in the flesh” since I started photographing buses, but I do recall seeing other Edinburgh vehicles with the strange feature you mention. I think the others were Leyland Titans.
Pete Davies
29/12/13 – 14:57
My knowledge of Nudd Bros as a bodybuilder is practically zero but the one useless piece of information that I do recall is that Mrs. Nudd was formerly a Miss. Mabel Barton whose father was not exactly unknown in the bus world.
Nigel Turner
30/12/13 – 07:18
In an era when there was still a shortage of buses, London Transport were forbidden from selling surplus buses to BET competitors, a ridiculous restriction. So, apart from many going abroad, the largest single other purchases were 100 Daimler CWA6’s to Belfast Corporation and 60 LT austerity Guy Arabs were bought by Edinburgh Corporation buses, I think, for tram replacement. They were given fleet numbers 301 to 360 (JWS 581 to 640). Leyland-style glass-fibre fronts replaced the originals when they were overhauled in 1959. Most of them lasted until the late 1960’s. I wonder if the registrations were changed just for the sake of having Scottish ones.
Chris Hebbron
30/12/13 – 07:18
There were sixty of these buses, purchased to enable the Edinburgh tramway system to be abandoned within very tight budgetary constraints. London Transport wanted to get rid of all its utilities as soon as possible. The Guy Arabs, many of which had crash gearboxes with the “wrong way round” (upwards from right to left) gear selection, were the least popular of the four utility types in the fleet. The unfrozen TD7 STDs were pretty unpopular with drivers too, but there were only eleven of these buses compared with 435 of the Guys. Understandably, LT wanted to get the best price possible for these quite young machines of relatively low mileage, but the British Transport Commission, to which LT had to accede, stipulated that no BTC vehicle disposals were to be sold outside the group, unless for export or non psv use. This was a time of an ascendant public transport industry, and the BTC’s paranoia in respect of independent and even municipal operators surely cried out for some Freudian counselling. The LT Bristol Ks were passed on painlessly to Crosville, Lincolnshire and Brighton, Hove & District, and the Daimler D fleet, with preselective gearboxes and, for the most part, AEC 7.7 engines, could be kept a bit longer, but the Guys posed a problem. The Scottish Bus Group would certainly take some, but no other market within BTC existed. Several did go for export, but many ended up languishing in Cohen’s scrapyard at Feltham. Determined to get a better price for its Guys, LT turned to W. North of Leeds, who became the main purchaser of ex London buses for several years. Under pressure from all sides both within and without the bus industry, the BTC finally relaxed its embargo on sales outside the group in December 1952. However, before this, in November 1951, Edinburgh Corporation approached Guy Motors with a proposal to purchase 60 ex LT wartime Arab chassis that Guy would renovate and update for rebodying. Entirely happy to comply, LT found itself up against the BTC rule, but, not wishing to lose such a satisfactory unit price for these Guys, LT approached James Amos of SBG to intercede on its behalf. Despite being in different ownership camps, the SBG and Edinburgh Corporation had a harmonious relationship, particularly as Scottish Omnibuses stood to take over the Musselburgh tram route when it was abandoned. The ploy succeeded, though the buses were sold direct to Edinburgh, not via Guy Motors, on the strict understanding that they were to be scrapped when Edinburgh had finally finished with them. Edinburgh’s engineers were permitted to pick their own vehicles from the withdrawn fleet, and collected their chosen sixty from Edgware garage in April and May 1952. The bodies were removed and scrapped, and the chassis were overhauled and updated to such an extent that they were given new chassis numbers, and hence new registrations. The Gardner 5LW powerplant was retained, though 314 received a 6LW in 1963. New Duple H31/25R bodywork of lightweight construction was ordered, though the major part of the work was undertaken at Nudd Bros and Lockyer in Kegworth, Leicestershire, later to be renamed Duple Midland. These bodies were of a truly spartan specification, to be emulated later by the early examples of the MCW group Orion. The complete vehicle weighed only 6tons 14cwt 1qtr. No opening windows were originally provided, and the apparent full front lacked glazing round the bonnet, possibly to improve engine access, but equally probably to save weight. Originally, the front panels had a set of horizontal polished strips, but in 1958/9 a glass fibre front panel visually similar to the standard Leyland tin front was fitted. Opening windows to the saloons were provided at the same time. To be pedantic, the solitary preserved Arab above – Edinburgh kept its promise to scrap these buses upon their withdrawal between 1967 and 1969, and only No. 314 survives – has the original form of shiny stripwork applied over the later extended Leyland clone bonnet for its 6LW, and is thus not entirely accurate, but this is a minor point. It is good to see this preserved example of a truly remarkable fleet of buses. I must acknowledge that the bulk of this detail has been gleaned from Ken Blacker’s excellent comprehensive book “London’s Utility Buses” (published by Capital Transport).
Roger Cox
30/12/13 – 07:19
Got a bit complicated – but when was it ever any different? Nudd Bros was renamed Duple (Midland) and produced metal framed (mostly) buses. Willowbrook was then purchased, but strictly speaking remained separate. Eventually Yeates was taken on board. All three were Loughborough based and became the Duple (Midland) operation – Duple (Northern) being the former Burlingham. Nudd Bros, Burlingham and Yeates were dropped as marques but Willowbrook became the “face” of Duple (Midland). During this time, it built many double deck buses – mostly Regent Vs and Atlanteans. When Duple began to feel the pinch, Willowbrook was sold off as a going concern. [It produced it’s own designs from then on but increasingly it depended on work from NBC – often by under-cutting Duple and Plaxton on tenders. The quality was, by now, very suspect.]
David Oldfield
30/12/13 – 09:27
Nudd Brothers and Lockyer, were originally based at a small workshop in Chilwell, Nottinghamshire which was opposite the R.E.M.E 38 Central Workshop.
Roger Broughton
30/12/13 – 10:08
Thx, Roger, for fleshing out my more meagre story of LT’s dilemma in selling perfectly good buses (well chassis at least), but many had had their bodies ovehauled or had sound NCB-bodied Guys. I do recall that 314 was due to be converted to a tree-lopper and skulled around for some time waiting for it to be done. In the end, it never happened and the vehicle went for preservation, happily, for the story of these buses, especially 314’s, is really unusual and interesting.
Chris Hebbron
30/12/13 – 11:12
For anyone with an interest in Londons utility buses, I really must recommend the Capital Transport publication by Ken Blacker. “Londons Utility Buses”. It is an absolute gem, full of detail, superb photographs, and disposal references, and is a must for all who loved the “utilities” in any fleet! Alan Townsin’s TP book, “The Utilities”, is, of course, the complete reference work.
John Whitaker
30/12/13 – 14:46
I have been searching, but to no avail, for details of Edinburgh’s other utility rebuilds, with Alexander bodies. I believe these were all Daimlers, some of the CWG5 variety, but seem to remember reading that some were CWA6, and that they were “Gardnerised” upon rebuilding. This was, if correct, a most rare occurrence! Can any of you experts throw any light on this happening, or is my memory finally collapsing?!
John Whitaker
31/12/13 – 07:16
Am I correct in thinking that some of these were sold to the SBG and were lengthened and given saloon bodies or did I dream it?
Chris Hough
31/12/13 – 12:07
S.M.T did indeed rebuild utility Guys ex London Transport into 30ft single deckers.
Stephen Bloomfield
01/01/14 – 09:07
re my last comment: S.O.L. dismantled 23 ex London Transport Guy utilities. Each chassis was lengthened to 30ft and rebodied, 17 with S.O.L. B39F bodies and 6 with S.O.L. C35F bodies. As with the Edinburgh vehicles they were re-registered JWS 122 TO 131, KSC 918/919 and LSC 91 TO 101. 5 bus bodied vehicles went to S.O.L and the remainder to Highland Omnibuses. Also the first two vehicles rebuilt for Edinburgh received Duple bodies. Western S.M.T also rebodied a number of ex London Transport Utilities. As with the Edinburgh and S.O.L. vehicles they were reregistered. This information came from my own records and also from a recent publication by the PSV Circle about Guy Heavy Chassis.
Stephen Bloomfield
01/01/14 – 09:08
Stephen, I wasn`t aware SMT had body building facilities. Are you sure this work wasn`t done by Alexanders?
Jim Hepburn
01/01/14 – 12:38
S.O.L constructed the bodies at their Marine Works using Alexander frames. Marine Works subsequently became part of Scottish Bus Group Engineering in 1985. Marine Works also constructed 32 Duple Vista style bodies on to Bedford OB chassis. 20 of these vehicles were subsequently rebodied by Burlingham. The same works also constructed 60 Bedford OWBs to a design very similar to Duple. In 1955 S.O.L also bodied a single decker using Albion Claymore parts. Fleet number S1 LWS 926.
Stephen Bloomfield
01/01/14 – 13:20
Didn’t SMT also build utility bodies on Bedford OWB chassis during WW2? I think they were undistinguishable from the Duple and Mulliner versions.
Michael Hampton
02/01/14 – 08:27
David, Alan Townsin’s book on Duple doesn’t quite agree with your history of Duple Midland. Nudd Bros & Lockyer were the original Duple Midland, but they were at Kegworth, not Loughborough. New premises in Loughborough were obtained by Duple, and the operation was in the process of gradually moving there when Willowbrook were acquired, making three Midland factories in all. Rationalisation (largely glossed over) eventually resulted in only the Willowbrook factory remaining open, using Duple (Midland) as a badge name for some products. There is no mention of Yeates at all, and I have no reason to believe they were ever involved with Duple; as I recall it they simply stopped building bodies and remained as a dealer.
Peter Williamson
02/01/14 – 09:29
As I’ve said before, Peter, when you provide a thumbnail you provide the opportunity for mis-reading or mis-interpretation. Your accurate reading of Alan Townsin’s book doesn’t substantially disagree with my thumbnail. As for Yeates. I only recently discovered that myself – but cannot for the life of me find the source. They “closed” in 1964 and it could be a case of the “NCBs”. The Yeates company didn’t fold, they just closed the coachworks. When NCB did fold, the machinery and an amount of timber were sold to C H Roe. Possibly the same happened with Yeates – selling machinery and parts to Duple (Midland)/Willowbrook.
David Oldfield
03/01/14 – 12:51
Re David Oldfields comments about Yeates. The link below may shed more light on the closure of the coachbuilding section of Yeates :- //archive.commercialmotor.com/
Stephen Bloomfield
04/01/14 – 07:55
Thanks for this, Stephen. The link goes to the archive home page, but the issue in question is 4th October 1963. Duple took over Yeates body works (next door to Willowbrook) but not the staff, and agreed to complete outstanding work and continue to service and repair Yeates coachwork. I’m surprised the Duple book doesn’t mention this.
Peter Williamson
My fault that. Link fixed.
05/01/14 – 16:46
Roger, I had no idea of the spartan and lightweight nature of the Duple/Nudd-bodied Guys. The fully-fronted styling and ornamentation around the grille give the impression of something ‘a cut above’, whereas in reality it sounds like, as my late Grandma would have said, a case of “all outward show”. Sadly, as you mention, ECT persisted with this back to basics policy and followed on with the infamous Orion-bodied Titans. At least the beautiful livery was retained as a saving grace. David O, thanks for clarifying the situation re Duple, Nudd, Willowbrook, Yeates and Burlingham. As you say, it did get a bit complicated. Willowbrook’s quality certainly was suspect, following its sell- off. West Yorkshire were to have taken delivery of fifteen Willowbrook coach-bodied Leyland Leopards in 1981, but in the end only received six (2594-99). They were not well received, and passengers complained that the seats were very uncomfortable, especially on long-distance journeys. The overall finish appeared cheap and cheerful when compared to Plaxton’s products, and the Willowbrooks were soon down graded to dual-purpose vehicles. The remaining nine Leopard chassis were temporarily stored for some months at WY’s Harrogate depot, as Willowbrook were experiencing a backlog of work and hadn’t room to store them. The chassis were later despatched to Duple for bodying, becoming WY’s 2600-08. What a sad end for Willowbrook, and who would have guessed that Duple would eventually close its doors some years later?
Brendan Smith
06/01/14 – 07:59
Duple was a national giant when Plaxton was still a local upstart in the early fifties. At the same time Silver Service Darley Dale were receiving Regal IVs with Willowbrook coach bodies and a little later Black & White Motorways received slightly more modern versions of the same body on Reliances. These were full blown coaches – as were the later Viscount and Viceroys – and ranked among close seconds to Burlingham’s Seagull for style. [These were also Willowbrook names before Duple hi-jacked them.] Yes Brendan, with Duple and Willowbrook both, how are the mighty fallen.
David Oldfield
22/05/21 – 06:49
re Roger Cox’s comments on 314. I recall frequent meetings with it when it was first preserved and on many occasions afterwards. It had the 6LW removed and a 5LW installed, and at the same time the nose was restored to the original profile and a replica chrome front constructed as shown in the photograph. I have photos in my collection showing the 6LW ‘snout’ and the revised profile after it was re-engined.
Dr. George Fairbairn
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
07/02/22 – 06:33
I have a BSA Bantam D1 ?1952, Registration No. JWS 495. I have no paperwork for this vehicle and am trying to trace its origins in order to, hopefully, keep its Reg. I noticed, in the above photo, that the bus Reg. was JWS 594. I wonder if my Bantam and this bus were registered in the same area and if so, if there might be some existing County documentation on my BSA which I might be able to present to the DVLA in order to keep the Bantam’s original Reg.
John Boyd
08/02/22 – 06:12
Bus Lists on the Web shows a few JWS registered vehicles. The WS registration series was issued in Edinburgh. Edinburgh Corporation had four new buses (JWS 67-70) which are shown as new in July 1952. They also had about sixty former London Transport Guy Arab buses rebuilt which were re-registered JWS 581-640. JWS 581 is shown as registered in November 1952. This was followed by JWS 582-640 which are shown as registered between February and July 1953. Looking at the list it can be seen that these were delivered quite randomly therefore it can be said that the block of registrations would have been reserved in advance. To obtain the list of the above go to www.buslistsontheweb Search, Registration, Key ‘JWS’ to see the whole series Highland Omnibuses also had some single deck Guy rebuilds which became JWS 122-131. The exact months for these are not shown, only the years – 1952 (JWS 122-127) and 1953 (JWS 128-131).
Yorkshire Woollen District 1961 Ford Thames 570E Duple C41F
By the time this picture of a Yorkshire Woollen Thames was taken, it was in preservation. Never my favourite Yorkshire coaches, I found them a little slow and a lot noisy. One of them provided the only occasion I experienced where all passengers had to get off and walk up a steep hill which the Ford had failed to climb, though to be fair, the engine had developed a serious defect during the journey. I could never understand why ‘Yorkshire’ bought them – the rumour at the time was that Ford had thrown in a couple of Transit vans for the engineering department but I have no idea whether there was any truth whatsoever in this.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Hunter
24/05/13 – 06:58
As I said elsewhere on this forum recently, there was a time in the early ’60s when these Fords were the (minority) vehicle of choice for major operators requiring a lightweight motor for lightweight (mainly private hire) duties. Although inevitably pressed into service at busy times for front line duties, SUT’s Fords (and the Bedfords acquired with operators) had their own front line duties – Fishing Trips. These were regular Sunday duties. Did it happen elsewhere? Ford only arrived on the scene in 1958, eventually replacing the Commer Avenger as the number two lightweight. Commer withdrew from the market in 1964 – as did Ford much later in 1985. Ford developed a strong fan base as a fast motor – in many ways overtaking Bedford who never quite regained the reputation gained by the OB and SB. The fact that these were inferior offerings to those of AEC, Bristol and Leyland – as well as Daimler and Guy – was immaterial. Quality independents sold their lightweights after about three years to keep a modern profile. The big boys – especially Yelloway – often kept their Bedfords for only one season, i.e. months, again often renting or leasing where they bought the AECs and Leyland.
David Oldfield
24/05/13 – 14:06
For some reason, Ford were very popular around Manchester in my time (1971 – 1980). Smiths, Stanley Spencer, Jacksons and Shearings all ultimately came together as Shearings – and were major operators of Fords with a three year replacement cycle. Holt, Fingland, a Davyhulme firm and another Altrincham firm added to the local Ford fleet, as did Fieldsend of Salford and Monk of Leigh. In the case of the above, some were minority AEC operators. [Was there a local dealer that, in the ignorance of youth, I did not know about?]
David Oldfield
24/05/13 – 14:07
I rode on this at last November’s Dewsbury open day and was surprised at the relative narrowness of the seats when compared to those in (say) a late 1940s half-cab coach. Having said that, I’ve not ridden in this type of Vega derivative since about 1974, but I’ve hardly gained any weight in the intervening years. The aisle was (probably) narrower than on a typical half-cab, so where did all the width go? Perhaps Duple was using cavity wall insulation on this model…
Neville Mercer
24/05/13 – 15:20
Interesting comment Neville. I rode on it at the Nocturnal rally at Halifax in October and my thoughts were exactly the same as yours, re the narrowness of the seats. I think the last time I rode on one would be the late sixties, a Bedford version and don’t remember the seats being as tight as on this. Perhaps the Ford version was narrower for some reason. I know the Ford and Commer versions were about 7 inches taller than the Bedford so perhaps they were narrower. There again, I’m afraid I have grown somewhat since the late 60’s!
Eric Bawden
24/05/13 – 17:33
They were only 8′ wide – but that wouldn’t explain why they felt narrower than a (7’6″) 1940s half-cab.
David Oldfield
24/05/13 – 18:12
North Western bought 8 Bedford SB3s for their Altrincham Coachways subsidiary in 1961 with identical bodywork. Five subsequently went to Melba Motors. When Altrincham Coachways was sold off and Melba Motors was absorbed into the main fleet, the vehicles were painted red and cream, were given North Western transfers and fleet numbers in the 1967 sequence and were employed for just a season. During their lives they were used on similar operations for the subsidiaries to those where NWRCC employed Tiger Cubs or even Leopards. As far as the infiltration of Fords into the various Bedford dominated Manchester coaching fleets of the period goes this was, as I understand it, due to an aggressive sales policy at a time when the Bedford OB and early 1950s Bedfords were time expired. With both Duple and Plaxton offering bodies on Fords almost identical to those on Bedfords, the price advantage that Ford offered resulted in a good number of orders.
Phil Blinkhorn
01/11/13 – 08:03
A similar Coach to the one illustrated is 525 BGW, which was new to Timpsons. I remember it from when it was owned by J.R.(Bob) Bazeley, an owner driver from Duston Northampton. Owner drivers were my favourite operators. Oh for the 1960s and 1970s, the PSV industry was of interest in those days.
Stemax1960
17/02/14 – 07:49
The first Ford Transits were built in 1965 so the suggestion that Ford threw in a couple of Transit Vans doesn’t seem to be possible.
David R
17/02/14 – 17:08
Like most rumours, it could have been apocryphal, or it might have been the Transit’s attractive predecessor, the Ford Thames 400E van.
Chris Hebbron
21/04/14 – 06:18
This old lady brought the A685 to a crawl on the hill up to Kirkby Stephen West at this weekend’s Brough bus rally. Must have been doing around 3 mph. It had the lowbridge Ribble Atlantean panting at its heels, which given that marque’s historical performance on the A591 southwards out of Keswick, is saying something!
David Brown
21/04/14 – 11:02
On Saturday 19/04/14 we had fuel problems due to dragging some dirt out of the tank while going up and down all the hills on the way to Kirkby Stephen I had 2 attempts on service Saturday and gave up but during the evening I managed to clean the filter bowl and make a new seal then on Sunday it ran ok back to going up between Kirkby Stephen East and West stations in second gear.
Simon Turner
30/06/14 – 11:20
Anyone wanting a ride on this I will be doing service at the Heath Common running day 13/07/2014
FVA 462D a Ford R192 with Duple C45F body, it was new to Hutchison of Overtown in 1966. She’s seen at the Wisley Rally on 5 April 2009, but I’ve never (knowingly) seen a vehicle in Hutchison livery. Is this the original livery of Hutchisons?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies.
25/03/15 – 08:49
Hutchison’s livery was a rather striking two-tone blue (without any cream/white relief). Could the “Uckfield” destination blind give a clue to a later operator? I can remember this vehicle being advertised for sale in B&CP about ten years ago, wearing the same livery as in this photo’, so it’s been painted like this for quite a while.
Neville Mercer
25/03/15 – 16:22
Thank you, Neville. I had an idea it wasn’t Hutchison’s livery. I’ll continue to list the operator as “Unknown” in my database unless or until someone can identify the livery . . .
Pete Davies
28/03/15 – 09:44
I’ve been trawling through old copies of B&CP, and the ad appeared in several issues in 2010 (so not ten years ago!). At that time the vehicle was owned by Bob Hunt of Halesowen in the West Midlands.
Neville Mercer
28/03/15 – 14:38
Thanks for these latest thoughts, Neville. She appears to reside in the vicinity of Sheffield Park (not Sheffield as the PSVC 2012 listing has her!) the home of the National Trust gardens and the Bluebell Railway. The vehicle is totally anonymous in respect of fleet name and legal lettering, though I have found a reference to Hutchison amid the notes on Wishaw, which says the firm, with its blue and cream buses, sold out to FIRST some years ago. It suggests, then, that this might in fact be the original livery. Any more suggestions, anyone?
Pete Davies
29/03/15 – 17:26
To clarify my comments on Hutchison’s livery, at the time that this vehicle was delivered their coach colour scheme was two-tone blue. Some vehicles did have cream window surrounds, but the dark and pale blue were the predominant colours. The plainer pale blue/cream livery came in after the time of this particular machine unless they kept it for much longer than was their usual practice. Does anybody have a shot of it when in service with Hutchison?
Neville Mercer
29/03/15 – 18:48
FVA 462D is owned by Nick White of Sheffield (the Yorkshire town NOT Sheffield Park) as a preserved vehicle. There are numerous pics of it on Flickr including some recent ones of it with White’s fleet names, a personal livery applied by Mr White.
John Wakefield
30/03/15 – 07:59
How very interesting, John! So, what’s the UCKFIELD connection?
Pete Davies
30/03/15 – 09:29
A previous preservation owner Terry Smith lived at Uckfield, he sold it back to Bob Hunt 9/09 & it passed on again to White 8/10.
The site appears to be down but the coach appears on another: https://sites.google.com/site/ It seems to be their only coach and possibly they run other wedding transport too.
Joe
18/09/18 – 07:18
The point of the link I posted yesterday (but which won’t now come up) was that it showed the vehicle in what I presume was Hutchison colours – this was in response to Neville Mercer’s request for a shot of it when in service with Hutchison. Actually I think the shot showed it when it was Baird of Dunoon, but I’m pretty sure that it retained Hutchison livery. The same shot is here, but I can’t isolate it. https://www.google.co.uk/:
David Call
22/09/18 – 06:51
Re Hutchinsons Ford R192 FVA 462D. This is to my knowledge the only Ford R192 survivor with a Duple ‘Empress’ body. This is the same as a Bella Venture body as fitted on a Bedford VAM5 of which currently two roadworthy examples survive. Strange that ‘White Nostalgic Coaches’ web site is now no longer live. Strangely I can find no bus/coach company of that name registered in the Sheffield area on the Vehicle Operator/Licencing Service web site. Looks like it maybe being operated under another coach companies licence!
John Wakefield
22/07/19 – 05:23
Now resident with the South Yorkshire Transport Trust and not currently taxed.
Peter Williamson
25/07/19 – 07:05
Still owned by Nick White according to SYTT web site.
