Wesleys of Stoke Goldington 1945 Daimler CWA6 Duple L27/26RD
As Daimlers have such an enthusiastic and knowledgeable following here, I proffer this 14/6/1958 shot of from left to right VV 8931, ACK 781, and ASD 834 at a day-trip to Wicksteeds Park, Kettering, standing by for their return trip. ACK 781 & ASD 834 were with Wesleys of Stoke Goldington and VV 8931 served then for Priory Coaches of Leamington Spa. I will leave it up to you chaps to come up with the original operators of the above vehicles. Oh! the ‘decker far left just out of shot is an ex-London Transport. STD 44, DLU 354, another Priory Coaches excursion bus.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
02/11/11 – 21:12
Wonderful photograph Victor! What is it about wartime Daimlers, and independents of this era? Maybe the “VV” is ex Northampton: it looks like a Park Royal body which were quite rare on Daimlers. ASD is Scottish is it not, but from where, I leave to the more knowledgeable. CK is probably Scout Motor Services, but not 100% sure. A wonderfully evocative picture of another “classic” independent, Wesleys, which I remember from reading “Buses Illustrated” when I was a lad! Many thanks.
John Whitaker
03/11/11 – 09:16
Wesley is probably best remembered for the Crellin-Duplex “half-decker” coaches it operated in the late 1950s. The two machines, KHO 178/179 had Mann Egerton bodywork on Crossley chassis and had been new to the Creamline group in Hampshire. Several other independents (including Butter of Childs Ercall and Pegg of Caston) used half-deckers on schools services, but as far as I know Wesley was the only company to use them on stage carriage operations available to the public. Can anyone think of any other such operations by Crellin-Duplex vehicles?
Neville Mercer
03/11/11 – 12:20
SD was a Glasgow registration, but of course that only narrows things down slightly!
Stephen Ford
04/11/11 – 07:08
ASD 834 was new to Western S.M.T in 1945. It is a Daimler CWA6 with a lowbridge Duple body. SD was an Ayrshire mark.
VV 8933 ex Northampton Corporation 124. A Daimler CWD6.
Stephen Bloomfield
04/11/11 – 15:35
Interesting that ASD 834 had a Duple utility body. Massey, at that time, was the only official builder of lowbridge utility bodies and London Transport used its influence and argument that its earlier CWA’s were bodied by Duple, to get its 1945 order changed to Duple, too.
Chris Hebbron
05/11/11 – 07:11
Not sure what you mean , Chris H, about Massey being the only builder of lowbridge utility bodies in 1945. There were several others.
I have just been consulting the “bible” on utility buses, namely Alan Townsin`s book, which details the quantity and type block allocation system for the production of utility buses. Highbridge Daimlers, Guys, and unfrozen buses are quite detailed in regard to this matter, but lowbridge Daimlers seem to be relatively simple: 40 CWG5s were lowbridge bodied by Brush (there were 60 highbridge CWG5s, 30 by Duple, and 30 by Massey.) Lowbridge CWA6 were all bodied by Duple or Brush, unless I have missed something, and I can find no reference to lowbridge Massey bodies on any Daimler utility chassis. Indeed, they were rare on Guys also. I think the ACK registered bus in Victor’s photograph is a Brush body if anyone can confirm, and, of course, Southend had several. Duple built a handful of low bodies on early wartime Bristol K chassis, but most of these were built by Strachan. It would be fascinating to see the timings of all the combinations in a tabulated form if anyone wants to help me research it.
John Whitaker
05/11/11 – 07:12
Western S.M.T had lowbridge bodies on Guy Arab II’s and Daimlers CW’s by Northern Counties, Roe, Duple, Massey, Brush and Weymann. Hants and Dorset had lowbridge bodies by Strachan, Duple, Brush and Roe on Bristol and Guy chassis.
Stephen Bloomfield
05/11/11 – 07:13
Bradford Corporation Passenger Transport also received some Daimler CWA6s with Duple lowbridge bodies in January 1945. These were 487 to 501 (DKY 487 -501). However they were glad to dispose of them as there was no requirement for lowbridge buses in Bradford. They were never popular with the passengers due to the wooden seats which were a challenge on the upper deck. All these buses were gone by the end of February 1952 and some went to Nottingham for further use.
Richard Fieldhouse
06/11/11 – 17:14
Well, of course, you polymaths cracked my Daimler trio without delay. My puerile notes of the period give: ACK781 = Ribble fleet no. 2427, ASD834 = Western Scottish Motor Traction KR225 and VV8931 = Northampton Corporation # 126. Living fairly near Northampton, I recall my admiration of that all-Daimler fleet in respect of the impeccable cleanliness of their buses. I surmise that Northampton’s Transport Manager was a something of a martinet, in full charge of all he surveyed and probably ex-military……. I still perceive in 2011, that German- and Swiss-registered artics are always clean and dent-free as if they were followed by a valet service and a mobile bodyshop. Of the Euro-fleet, I opine that Albanian lorries are the dirtiest – and sadly, GB-reg HGVs frequently display Albion’s mud to the Eurohordes. Shame.
Victor Brumby
08/02/18 – 15:00
I was at Wicksteed Park that day on the Monks Park Club childrens annual outing. The bus parked behind is a Northampton Corporation Daimler, end one of a row of four that took us over that day parked behind.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Nottingham City transport 1945 Daimler CWA6 Duple UL27/28R
Some months ago, June 2011 to be precise, there was a question on the Q&As page from Stephen Ford about the ex Bradford lowbridge utilities acquired by Nottingham Corporation Transport for the then new Clifton Estate services. I have now come across the above photograph of 47 (DKY 496) at a somewhat embryonic Clifton Estate. I have been told that the shot is likely to be Green Lane, Clifton but I can not be certain. One odd coincidence is that the Daimler utilities were NCT numbered 44-50, the same fleet numbers reappeared on Clifton services a few years later, 44/5 on 1959 Metro Cammell PD2s and 46-50 on 1962/3 Park Royal Daimler Fleetlines. If you are interested you can view Stephens original question at this link.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell
29/12/11 – 09:29
Re John Whitakers comment to Stephens original question Pigtroughs and the ‘Flat’ part (roof?) may be understandable, but why the ‘Harriet’ part?
Chris Hebbron
29/12/11 – 14:58
Nice photo of one of my favourite batch of Bradford buses! Many thanks. I honestly do not know where “Harriets” comes from Chris, but I think it was just a Bradford “rudery”, one of many which former mill workers such as myself tried valiantly to disregard!
John Whitaker
29/12/11 – 17:58
Doncaster had some highbridge Weymann CWA6’s which looked a bit uncurved like this and lasted much longer – ’43 -‘ 58 – and seemed indestructible, if I recall, rather agricultural.
Joe
30/12/11 – 07:27
Bradford had highbridge CWA6s too, Joe, and these lasted until 1958, until replaced by 25 ex London RTs.The lowbridge ones were sold earlier, as there was no need for lowbridge buses in the city. Also sold by 1953 were 467, the solitary lowbridge Arab 1, 474/475, 2 Weymann highbridge Arabs, and 6 Massey bodied CWG5 Daimlers, 468 -473. 467 was retained as a “school bus” , BCPTs term for a driver trainer. As a schoolboy, I loved the flat Harriets so much because they were so different. I always had a fascination for old and decrepitly scruffy buses as they contrasted so vividly with the “posher” stock. I defer from going into further detail regarding the meaning of the phrase,except to say it was not graciously received if directed towards young ladies! I never used the term myself!
John Whitaker
30/12/11 – 07:31
Probably Green Lane, but could be either the junction with Southchurch Drive (in the centre of the estate) – route 61 terminus, or with Farnborough Road on the south eastern perimeter, which, I think, was the original terminus of the 61A (later extended to Glenloch Drive). Unfortunately, it is not quite possible to read the route number on the combined blind. “Clifton Estate” is just about legible, and my impression is that the number is too long for the simple 61, so could be 61A. Clifton was a council estate re-housing occupants from slum-clearance property in the city. Car ownership was low, and a decent bus service was indispensable from day 1. For a year or two the termini of the progressively extended services were building site locations – probably a big help to the construction workers too!
Stephen Ford
30/12/11 – 08:58
As requested a closer view of DKY 496 minus the bus stop
30/12/11 – 11:18
OK – I retract that. From the closer view it is very clearly 61.
Stephen Ford
09/01/12 – 07:11
The picture was taken at the original Farnborough Road terminus. The vehicle having turned round at the Southchurch Drive junction. This stop was the site of the temporary wooden St Francis Church building. The Daimlers were delivered to Nottingham in BCT blue but were repainted before entering service.
Ray Pettit
03/05/12 – 08:04
Bus 47 entered service with NCT in January 1953 (we moved to Clifton on 12th January 1953). I don’t think that this is at the original terminus at the north junction of Farnborough Road with Southchurch Drive as the Wimpey site huts situated at this location are not there (there was housing on the opposite side of the road)and the lie of the land looks wrong. Service 61 was extended along Southchurch Drive to its junction with Rivergreen from 28th June 1953 and further along Southchurch Drive to Ruddington Road (later renamed Green Lane) from 7th March 1954. Service 61A, which is partially visible on the close up of 47’s destination blind, commenced operation from 4th April 1954. Initially the 61A only ran Monday to Friday peaks and on Saturday. The location of 47 isn’t the 61A terminus at Farnborough Road/Ruddington Road as there was already some housing at this location when the service started and Ruddington Road isn’t visible in the background. Likewise,I’d rule out Southchurch Drive/Ruddington Road as Ruddington Road isn’t visible in the background (construction of what became known as ‘the top shops’ – at least in where we lived in Clifton – didn’t start until 1954/55). I’d go with the location being Southchurch Drive/Rivergreen. The land at the side of 47 was subsequently occupied by the Clifton Methodist Church and the rising ground in the background would also be consistent with this location. Service 61 started operation on Wednesday 29th October 1952 after a process via the East Midland Traffic Commissioner that started in September 1951. The process was often acrimonious and subject to unsuccessful appeals to the Minister of Transport by all parties when Road Service Licences were granted at a hearing on 24th September 1952 to NCT, WBUDC and South Notts. So this October will see the 60th anniversary of bus services to Clifton Estate starting.
Michael Elliott
24/10/13 – 08:03
The location of your photograph is Southchurch Drive Green Lane Glapton Woods Whitegate Woods are in the background the woods are on a hill and yet with no houses yet built this would stand out.
Dean Smith
06/08/16 – 06:24
I remember crashes and break-downs coming home from school at Attenborough up the Derby Road Hill to the stop before Canning Circus 1954 ’til 1959. What number bus would that be? Then going to Mundella Grammar School for a year (1960), don’t remember the bus for that- anyone know? I think it was a No. 45 bus that took me to Margaret Glen Bott School at Woollaton for the next 4 years. After that, it was Clifton Hall Girl’s Grammar School- anyone know what bus that would be from Western Terrace just in the Park Estate (knocked down now!!! boo hoo) to Clifton !965-67? I am writing my memories down so I would be glad if you could pass me on to anyone who is interested in those areas at that time. Thank you very much, I include my e-mail address, just in case I might receive some helpful information. Like how long did the Park Estate use a horse and cart. I set up a petition to save the horse from redundancy. It was in the papers.
Pippa Robins
07/08/16 – 07:03
Hello Pippa, Assuming these were all ordinary service buses and not school specials, this would be the scenario: 1. Attenborough to/from Canning Circus would be by Barton’s (red buses). There were a number of route numbers (and routes). The most usual route taken by the 3, 5, 5B, 10 or 11 was Attenborough Lane, Depot Corner, Beeston Square, Broadgate (or Queens Road), University Boulevard (or Beeston Lane through the University campus), Gregory Street, Church Street, Lenton Boulevard and Derby Road. The 5X went along the Chilwell by-pass and Queens Road, missing Beeston Square, but otherwise as above. The 5, 5B and 5X were usually double deckers, the others always single deckers. 2. Mundella was near Trent Bridge, and would almost certainly have been a 43 trolleybus from the stop at the top of Alfreton Road – they ran about every 3 minutes throughout the day. Down to the Old Market Square, then Wheeler Gate, Albert Street, Lister Gate (now pedestrianised), Carrington Street past the Midland station, and Arkwright Street (also now pedestrianised), terminating at the Embankment, although I think Muskham Street – the last stop before the terminus was slightly nearer to Mundella. 3. Margaret Glen Bott was on Sutton Passeys Crescent, Wollaton Park estate, and a 45 trolleybus from the Canning Circus stop on Derby Road sounds right, although a bit less frequent than the 39 trolleybus from the Canning Circus stop on Ilkeston Road. 4. Finally, Clifton Hall Girls Grammar. There were several services to Clifton estate (61, 61A, 66, 67 and 68) run jointly by Nottingham City Transport (green buses) – via the new Clifton Bridge opened in 1958, or West Bridgford UDC (brown buses) and South Notts (dark blue buses) – via Trent Bridge and Wilford village. These started from Broad Marsh bus station, but all of them turned into the housing estate at Farnborough Road, quite a long way before reaching Clifton Hall. You would get a good half mile closer by using a South Notts bus heading out to Gotham and Loughborough. This started at Huntingdon Street bus station and by passed the estate, continuing straight along Clifton Lane past the bottom of the drive to Clifton Hall. From Canning Circus, you would take a 43 trolleybus, changing either at Broad Marsh for the joint service, or Trent Bridge terminus for the Loughborough bus, or possibly a 39 to the Central Market, King Edward Street, for Huntingdon Street bus station. For more general memories, you might like to try the www.nottstalgia.com forum.
VV 8934 is a Daimler CWD6 with Duple Utility body and is seen in service during Coventry City Transport centenary event in May this year (2012). The vehicle was new to Northampton Transport in 1945 as fleet number 129. Restoration was completed in 2011 and I think this is the only Daimler with utility body left running. It is owned by a member of the Lincolnshire Vintage Vehicle Society and should be at their event in November.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
07/10/12 – 08:46
What about the Huddersfield one, masquerading as a London vehicle which is (was?) owned by Stephen Morris?
David Oldfield
07/10/12 – 10:24
The question is whether this is the only (rare) CWD6 in preservation: The London/Huddersfield CW is an A, I think.
Joe
07/10/12 – 10:35
Huddersfield 217 (CCX 777) is indeed a CWA6. It too was new in 1945 and also carries a Duple body but of the lowbridge variety. It appears in Huddersfield, PMT and London Transport liveries on this posting.
Eric Bawden
07/10/12 – 11:39
You can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear, but Corporate livery ‘experts’ would do well to take note, a good simple livery with no gimmicks will enhance the appearance of even the most basic of vehicles, and this one could hold its head high alongside any of today’s eyesore’s
Ronnie Hoye
07/10/12 – 14:48
Probably the only preserved CWD6, but as well as the Huddersfield lowbridge example, there is, or was, a highbridge Duple CWA6 from Douglas Corporation in preservation. See the cover of Alan Townsin`s TPC book on utility buses.
John Whitaker
07/10/12 – 18:03
This is, to my mind, a handsome vehicle. This is what a bus should look like! A fantastically good restoration…all credit to those responsible who have done a superb job. I know absolutely nothing about these vehicles, but having driven RT’s and RML’s etc on LT, and LKH’s on E.C.O.C., this photo only makes me wish I could have driven one of these as well !!—with pride….
Norman Long
07/10/12 – 18:22
Another Daimler CWD6 in preservation is Aberdeen Corporation 155. The bus currently resides at the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum at Lathalmond in Fife. 155 is now painted in the earlier livery of dark green and white.
Stephen Bloomfield
08/10/12 – 08:23
Magnificent, and to think that the modern equivalent will be in shades of pink and grey. YUK!
Pete Davies
08/10/12 – 11:35
I have come across a short video of this vehicle and it can be seen and heard from the OB Sounds page
To confirm that CWD6 Northampton 129 will be in service at the LVVS Open Day on Sunday November 4th. Please see www.lvvs.org.uk for the list of vehicles in service. May be as many as 35. A great day out.
John Child
10/10/12 – 13:22
Copyright John Child
John Child thought you maybe interested in this picture as a before and after shot pertaining to my shot above. The picture was taken by John at Molesworth in 1990 prior to restoration. Makes an interesting comparison to my shot don’t you think?
Ken Jones
05/11/12 – 17:00
At Lincoln yesterday I was given access to photograph interior of VV 8934 without the crowds and a private trip round the block thanks to the owner John Childs and the crew of the vehicle.
Ken Jones
06/11/12 – 15:26
I was also at the LVVS do at Whisby Road, and rode upstairs on an almost full VV 8934. I imagined that progress would be fairly sedate, but thanks to the fine mechanical condition of this bus, matching its immaculate bodywork, and to the skill of the man in the cab, it positively flew along. Gearchanges and braking were wonderfully smooth and the sound effects a real delight. Thames Travel, based at Wallingford, Berks, who run a very good if tightly-timed service between Oxford and Reading, are just about to get rid of some MCV single deckers. It’s almost unbelievable that these tinny, bouncy, deafening vehicles with their cramped 27″ seat spacing, are 6 decades newer than the magnificent Northampton Daimler. The standard of restoration and driving of every vehicle I rode on was very impressive, but their original design has hardly been improved on. I admit that heaters are better today and seats are wider, and that low floors and kneeling suspension now make buses available to all—a piece of real progress, that—but the overpowered engines, fierce brakes and inescapable din from air-circulating systems assault the senses from all sides. The LVVS day was like a return to sanity!
Ian Thompson
07/11/12 – 06:54
Be careful Ian – the thought police will get you!
Stephen Ford
07/11/12 – 08:46
S*d the thought police, Stephen, I’m with Ian.
David Oldfield
07/11/12 – 10:25
I agree entirely, Ian. Things to add to the “comforts” of modern bus travel are moulded plastic passenger seats, snatching retarders and howling differentials. Why are back axles so much noisier these days?
Roger Cox
07/11/12
All these, plus the noisy overrun on the engine when changing down when slowing!
Chris Hebbron
08/11/12 – 07:13
Can I dare to say that the whole design of modern buses is flawed: the rear engine is yards away from the driver, and gets abused by the driver’s lack of sensitivity at this distance, and by the remoteness of the controls. The weight at the rear seems to make them unmanageable in ice and snow. If you stand to leave, the braking pitches you forward, whereas it is safer to be pulled back. Why o Why, when passenger numbers are falling, do we go for megabuses all the time? They clog up lanes and streets. Just a few thoughts on why that Daimler doesn’t seem ridiculous at all. Bring back the Q!
Joe
08/11/12 – 14:53
Joe, I entirely agree. The whole point of front entrance/rear engine seems to have been to facilitate one man operation. (The thought police will get ME for that!) But the effect was to give a thumping great bus the balance characteristics of a caravan. I recall a seasick-making journey from Ipswich to Hadleigh 30 years ago on an ECOC Bristol VR (by no means the worst offenders in the soggy suspension stakes). It was like a fairground white knuckle ride. Then also, using high capacity buses to reduce frequency while maintaining the appearance of service provision expressed as seats per hour makes the service less attractive, and for many people totally useless – and this when everyone is used to the infinite flexibility of getting into a car when they want to. Add to that the long delays at each stop while passengers fumble for their money or pass, and it is obvious why busy and impatient people regard the bus as transport of the last resort. I am a great fan of the continental “honesty” system for fare collection on city networks – passes or books of tickets bought at newsagents, and self-validated on board, with flying squads of inspectors charging about 25 times the standard fare for evasion. This removes time-consuming revenue collection from the driver and keeps the bus moving. It also cancels the need for a bus design with passenger access alongside the driver. (In other words, the wheels can revert to the front instead of being somewhere in the middle where they give the seesaw effect.) In some of our rougher cities it would be a positive advantage for the driver to be in his own secure cab, and not to be exposed to the verbal and physical abuse of the great unwashed public.
Well, that should be good for a few rejoinders!
Stephen Ford
09/11/12 – 07:44
Stephen there is much sense in what you say about fare collection although the dear “Public” are probably rather less honest than in Europe..well they used to be perhaps! I would make things even more simple..within city boundaries defined clearly, I would make all bus travel completely free. How?…we squander tens of millions on “surveys” and “planning” trying to make badly flawed ideas work here in Bristol. Just now £20M has been chucked away after scrapping plans for a “bendy bus” network that is now thought to be better if operated by..single deck buses 36″ long…that’ll be a stroke of genius! So, rather than continue to fumble about any more, just make travel free and use the funds lost in trying to get people to catch the bus to make using one a VERY good idea. The operating costs being taken care of from Government funding currently set aside for a multitude of “solutions”. Free things always work. Greater minds than mine on here will have a better understanding on how possible this is but it would be a big help if free say 6 – 9 am and 4-7pm..less cars, less pedal cycles ridden by madmen, less traffic hold ups and a younger passenger base becoming more used to buses than most of us older bods for whom the car is vastly preferable and who don’t fancy standing in the rain for ages waiting to ride home sat next to a loony with a cold! Now…anyone think the idea has..wheels??
Richard Leaman
09/11/12 – 16:57
I think the maths of the Continental honesty system goes like this : there will be some people who will never bother to get a ticket. OK, that doesn’t matter so long as they get caught about one journey in every 25 – because the fine will reimburse all the previous unpaid journeys.
Stephen Ford
10/11/12 – 06:42
I can remember the first Atlanteans with the Northern General Group, I would have been about 14ish at the time, anyway, about two or three weeks after they came into service I was speaking to a friend of my Dads who was a driver, I asked him what he thought of them and he said he hated them, why? I asked, and he replied that as well as being an abortion to drive, as soon as you pull up at a stop and open the doors all you get is, where’s the bus in front, you’re early/late, do you, don’t you, what time, how long, is it, will it, wont it, what bus goes here, how do I get there, and after 20 odd years on buses he finally knew what conductors were moaning about.
Ronnie Hoye
10/11/12 – 06:43
In the past, some British operators used to have honesty boxes on buses and trams. Glasgow was one, and, I think, Brighton Corporation. I wonder who supervised the emptying of these receptacles. One of the reasons why London Country (for one) discontinued the use of fareboxes was the opportunities they afforded for unauthorised access to the contents of the coin vaults by the designated removal staff during the small hours.
Roger Cox
10/11/12 – 09:17
Huddersfield Corporation/JOC also had honesty boxes certainly until the late 60’s.
John Stringer
10/11/12 – 10:18
Of course, inspectors are few and far between nowadays, too, although one did get on my bus the other day and did his stuff thoroughly. As for abroad, I do recall, about 8 years ago, travelling on a Lille tram and, at one point notably as we stopped at a college/Uni, a hoard of traffic staff blocking the tram doorways and checking for evidence of valid travel for those descending (mainly students), several offenders being caught. Then, a couple stayed aboard to the next stop, checking the remainder of passengers and catching about four more. I recall they caught quite a few offenders! There were no honesty boxes, but it’s doubtful if they’d have worked there!
Chris Hebbron
10/11/12 – 10:22
I am by no means certain but I think Huddersfield’s honesty boxes ceased to be fitted to new buses in 1967 with the arrival of the first Fleetlines but as far as I can remember those already fitted stayed with the bus until it was withdrawn. Perhaps someone who remembers the Huddersfield PD3A’s in service with OK can tell us if they were still fitted then?
Eric Bawden
10/11/12 – 11:30
Nottingham City Transport had them too – though I don’t ever remember seeing anyone put anything in them. I guess the thought was “If the conductor hasn’t collected the fare by the time I reach the platform to get off – tough!”
Stephen Ford
11/11/12 – 07:34
Grimsby-Cleethorpes used them, the only time I ever saw them being used was when my driver inadvertently left me at Riby Square and I had to be taken to the bus by patrol van.
Philip Carlton
16/03/17 – 06:28
I look forward to conducting Northampton Daimler 129 again on the LVVS spring running day Sunday 16th April 2017. The owner is a Mr. John Child and all tickets issued are Child tickets for obvious reasons. One little known fact about the war time utility buses is that they do not have a conductor platform repeater bell. When the motor is running the conductor cannot hear the bell ring in the drivers cab so he has to give the thumbs up to indicate he heard the bell. Northampton Corporation never got around to installing a bell post war. It is a joy to conduct this bus which is in first class condition.
Bob Perrin
04/04/17 – 07:23
No, it is not the only CWD in preservation. Aberdeen 155 (BRS37) is a 1945 example, fully restored at SVBM at Lathalmond, near Dunfermline.
Mr Anon
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
24/04/17 – 07:15
As a kid growing up in Northampton with relatives working on the buses I achieved a goal of every bus in service. That included fleet # 129.
EKV 966 is a Daimler CWA6 dating from 1944. It entered service with Coventry Corporation Transport in 1945 with a Duple Utility body. It was rebuilt with new Roe Pullman body in 1951. It has been in store for many years and made a rare outdoors appearance earlier this year at the Coventry Corporation Transport Centenary rally. It is owned by Coventry Transport Museum
Roger Burdett has issued the following statement November 2012:-
I expect to move it to secure site at the beginning of January 2013 for work to start virtually straight away. It is coming to me on a 20 year loan and I have agreed a remedial plan with Coventry Transport Museum. Major issues are the cracked block on the engine and the seats which require re-trimming. The list of work however is quite extensive and cost estimated at a range between £50k and £80k + volunteer hours; depending on what we find on wiring and structure. Visual issues for consideration are the downstairs windows and whether we keep what is on already (know they are not right) against finding other suitable ones to replace. Knackered Roe bodies are however few and far between; and of course trim material for the seats. Believe in 1951 it was trimmed with Lister check moquette like 126-165 and the nearest material to that is London Transport check. The hydraulic brakes will require overhaul including refurbished master cylinders and of course £2k for new tyres flaps. We will not know structure situation till we take side panels off but Roe have a good reputation for this. Chassis looks to be in good nick and does not have the flitch corrosion problem that hits CVGs I estimate a return to the road sometime in 2014 Roger
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
11/12/12 – 16:24
366 was withdrawn from service in 1959 but retained by the maintenance department as a mobile workshop with fleet number 02. The platform door was panelled in as were the lower deck windows. It was little used as such but in 1970 was passed to the Transport Museum, the door was reinstated and replacement windows were fitted. The number 366 was affixed in addition to 02.
Mcsporran
23/04/18 – 06:20
Now restored and in beautiful condition. Seats fantastic and it certainly motors well. I managed rides at both Quorn and Aldridge.
Tony Martin
27/04/18 – 05:53
Shows how optimistic I was saying 2014 when in fact it became 2018. We lost a whole year due to issues getting the downstairs window frames fabricated replacing the Orion windows in the picture. I overlooked I would need new window cappings for the inside of the frame as well. In typical Roe fashion these all became marginally different as Roe did not jig build their bodies. Then we found the engine block had two cracks-one easily repaired and the other proved impossible. I sourced a Gen-set and my team rebuilt it to the Automotive Spec. YOU NEED OPTIMISM TO CARRY OUT RESTORATIONS. But all worth it when I see comments like Tony’s. It should appear again at Wythall on Whit Sunday complete with my other two completed Coventrys-244+334
Roger Burdett
28/04/18 – 07:34
Just a quick line to reinforce Tony`s comments on EKV 966. I had the pleasure of riding on her last Saturday at Quorn, and enjoyed the best ride I ever had on a preserved bus. Beautifully restored, and the sounds were pure “music” ! The last time I heard such “music” was 1958, when Bradford withdrew its last CWA6s. Thanks for the enjoyment Roger.
John Whitaker
28/04/18 – 07:35
Well done, Roger, for your tenacity, another quality needed for vehicle restoration! For those of us who won’t be able to see here in the flesh, How about a favourite photo of yours to put with this post?
Chris Hebbron
01/05/18 – 05:49
Chris Where are you based I may bring it to a Bus Event near you? If you send me your email address I can fill your in-box.
I am not a great poster of photos but Ken Jones has on SCT61
I fondly remember visiting Bingley’s (one of the United Servces partners) in the mid-60s and asking Mrs Bingley (“Ma” Bingley as she was fondly known to us), whether LTO 10 was operating that day, as I wanted to photograph it. No sooner said, than she shouted for her daughter (?) who was the operations manager, and said – “Put t’Daimler on’t teatime dupe, ‘cos there’s a lad here wants to take a snap of it!” As promised, LTO 10 arrived into Wakefield bus station at about 5.30pm, and I got a (not very good) shot of it. Wonderful times which can never be repeated.
Photograph and copy contributed by Paul Haywood
The above bus was originally owned by A Skill of Nottingham and was delivered in 1950. Skills were supposed to take delivery of another CVD6 with Duple body as above but it went to W Gash & Sons instead as there DD7 (LNN 353) view at this link scroll down a bit and you will find two shots.
Spencer
My friend Paul has revived many happy memories of our days in the Wallace Arnold traffic office. “Ma” Bingley was Phyllis and was the “P” in “W. R. & P. Bingley – she was as Paul reports a “no nonsense” lady who quite simply got things done. That she was also a competent conjurer is beyond argument. All desperate calls from WA Hunslet for heavy assistance when summer peak demands got out of hand were calmly answered with “Ow many der yer want ??” No matter how many extra coaches we needed the necessary vehicles would appear at all hours as if by magic – fresh from pit contracts or schools or wherever – all manned by chaps who knew their place and “did as Phyllis said” without question and the impossibly large seaside passengers would all be gone without a hiccup. Slightly off the Daimler topic I admit, but Phyllis deserves an accolade as one of the real legends of the Industry.
Chris Youhill
Great story, Paul/Chris. Keep ’em coming! The human side is just as interesting as the bus side.
Chris Hebbron
10/10/12 – 09:00
The above photograph is featured on the ‘sct61’ website, along with another photo of LTO 10 in the caption of which it is asserted that Skills ordered three of these vehicles and that it was two, rather than one, which were diverted to Gash of Newark. LNN 353 (Gash DD7) was apparently intended to become Skills No.30 (LTO 30) and LRR 403 Skills No.20 (LTO 20). I haven’t been able to retrieve the Gash fleet number of LRR 403.
Lewis (Rhydlewis) 1949 Crossley SD42/7 Duple C35F (1955)
JP 7538 appears to be another wonderful combination of Bedford SB chassis and Duple coach body, except that it isn’t! The Crossley SD42/7 chassis dates from 1949, when it was new to Liptrot of Bamfurlong, near Wigan. A new Duple C35F body, as seen here, was fitted in 1955. We see it at Duxford on 28 September 2008.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
11/12/16 – 14:06
One of Gerald and Simon Emerton’s fine collection at Nantwich, Cheshire.
Ian Thompson
11/12/16 – 17:07
Registration number should read JP 7538. One of two (the other being JP 7537) new to Liptrot with Bellhouse Hartwell C33F bodies. Both rebodied by Duple as seen here whilst still with Liptrot. This one passed from Liptrot to Towler, Emneth 10/63, then to Lewis 7/65. Withdrawn 8/72 but still owned (unused) by Lewis in 4/81, subsequently to Emerton for preservation. (Information from PSVC)
David Williamson
12/12/16 – 06:44
The frontal aspect of this Duple body differs from the Bedford version in the slightly shallower windscreens with greater downward curvature to match the level of the side window line, and winged motif set above the smaller, lower front grille, rather than incorporated as part of the top frame. This coach would have been delivered with the HOE7/4 version of the dubious 8.6 litre engine, the last wholly Crossley effort in remedying the shortcomings of this motor before AEC, exhausted of patience with the Errwood Park concern, came up with the HOE7/5 downdraught replacement. What engine does it now have, I wonder? According to Eyre, Heaps and Townsin, despite the poor reputation of the Crossley engine, Birmingham Corporation, who had substantial fleets of both types, rated the DD42 rather more highly than the Daimler CVD6 on performance and reliability grounds.
Roger Cox
12/12/16 – 12:58
The grille on the Crossley is actually the standard ‘early butterfly’ type with winged motif above a smaller grille with fine mesh, as used on the 1955 season Super Vega (body series 1055). The previous 1954 season model (series 1050) was the same body but with the oval ‘fishmouth’ grille, then the 1956/7/8 season models (series 1060/1074/1090) were the classic 30ft. version with continuous (unstepped) waistline, three piece rear windows and the larger, flashier grille incorporating the motif and with a more open mesh. Here is an example of the 1955 season Super Vega for comparison. www.sct61.org.uk/zz475ctw
John Stringer
13/12/16 – 07:18
Thanks for that correction, John. In the arrogance of youth, I tended to resent the overwhelming invasion during the 1950s of the Bedford SB into respectable fleets, where it invariably ousted ‘proper’ heavyweight coaches of far greater character to my senses as a juvenile transport enthusiast. Despite the fact that they were all around, I obviously didn’t take a proper look at Duple bodied SBs, beyond noting that the fish mouth grille was replaced by the (to my mind still) hideous butterfly style. (As Sherlock Holmes commented – “You see, Watson, but you do not observe.”)
Roger Cox
14/12/16 – 16:33
We have 1956 and 1957 Duple Annuals in the Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Trust archive and it does not seem to have a model name like Vega or Corinthian. It is just described as “the rebodying product from Duple”
Stephen Allcroft
15/12/16 – 06:49
The Vega model name and its derivatives (Super Vega, Bella Vega, Vega Major, and all others beginning with ‘V’ – Vista, Super Vista, Bella Vista, and Bella Venture) were used exclusively for Bedford chassis by agreement with Vauxhall Motors (which maybe not coincidentally began with ‘V’). Super Vega-based designs for mounting on other makes of chassis – new Ford Thames and Commer Avengers, and rebodies on AEC Regal, Tiger PS, Daimler CVD6 and Maudslay Marathons though extremely similar were unnamed until the model names Yeoman (for Fords) and Corinthian (for Commers) were belatedly introduced for the three-piece screen version for the 1961/62 seasons. Similarly during the early 1960’s bodies for Fords had to be given different names to the equivalent Bedfords. Bella Vegas became Troopers; Vega Majors became Marauders, then Mariners; Bella Ventures became Empresses. It was only with the introduction of the Viceroy at the 1966 Commercial Motor Show that the same name became applied to both Bedfords and Fords, then later to heavyweights as well.
John Stringer
19/12/16 – 07:09
I’ve personally heard Birmingham’s preference for Crossleys over CVD6s confirmed by someone who used to work there. However, I don’t think that either engine was anywhere near as “dubious” when powering a single-deck vehicle. A former contributor to this forum has described both double-deckers as “distress purchases” in times of vehicle shortage, but both CVD6 and SD42 had a positive following when it came to coach work.
Peter Williamson
19/12/16 – 13:53
According to “Happy Family”, the story of Yellow Bus Services from Guildford, they had 2 Dennis Falcon P5s (VPA 261-2) with Duple Vega bodies.
John Lomas
19/12/16 – 15:19
An operator in Guildford, buying Dennis chassis? I wonder why that doesn’t surprise me!
Pete Davies
20/12/16 – 06:47
I brought up the Falcons because of John S’s posting about V type bodies being Bedfords, I wondered if John’s comment meant that technically the book might be wrong to use the Vega name. Re your comment: YBS over their 36yr life 1921 to 1957 appear to have had 66 vehicles: 33 Dennises, 24 Bedfords, 4 Fords, 2 Chevrolets, 2 Morrises and a Leyland. So they were quite loyal to Dennis but obviously favoured Bedfords as well. 17 of their Dennises and all the other makes predated their first Bedford in 1937 and the last of those earlier ones was gone in 1939.
John Lomas
20/12/16 – 06:49
The two Yellow Bus Dennis Falcons were of the forward control 30 ft. long L9 type, and both may be seen in these pictures: //www.sct61.org.uk/yb261 //www.sct61.org.uk/yb262 Mercifully (to my mind) neither of these coaches has the butterfly front grille. These pictures were taken in Guildford’s Onslow Street bus station, and the building in the background is the former Dennis works built in 1901. The site was retained as a repair shop when Dennis production finally moved to the new factory at Woodbridge Hill, which opened in 1905 and expanded thereafter. The Onslow Street premises were sold to the Rodboro Boot and Shoe Company in 1917, and they still stand.
Roger Cox
20/12/16 – 11:22
When you look at the photos Roger has given links to, it’s in the mindset that they have Bedford chassis, such is the relationship between these bodies and Bedfords! It’s a surprise to me that we now know of at least Dennis and Crossley chassis being secreted underneath!
Chris Hebbron
21/12/16 – 06:17
And here’s another example of something hiding under a Duple body! It’s from a bought slide, of unknown copyright, but BLOTW has TMV 986 as a Leyland Tiger PS1/1 new in 1948 to another Lewis – the one in London SE10. In this view, the vehicle is with Express, Rhostryfan
Pete Davies
21/12/16 – 06:19
The Vega-style bodies went on the following lightweights besides the SB, Albion Victor FT39, Commer Avenger, Dennis Falcon, Ford Thames Trader PSV, Leyland Comet ECPO1/2T and Tilling Stevens L4MA8. The rebodying product to my knowledge on AEC Regal III, Crossley SD42, Daimler CVD6, Maudslay Marathon III and Leyland Tiger PS1.
Stephen Allcroft
13/08/17 – 07:46
Isn’t TMV 986 with Silver Star rather than Express?
Gwyn
13/08/17 – 08:54
Gwyn, As I bought the copy slide, it was in the vendor’s listing as with Express. You may be correct and the vendor may have been wrong. I have no idea!
I photographed this coach near to Stalybridge Station in March 1966, but until recently, the only information I had was what could be seen in the photograph. Searching the web for more information, the first thing I found was that somehow, someone had got hold of a copy of my photo, which didn’t make sense, as I had no recollection of having provided anyone with a copy. The thumbnails in Google Images was at first sight the spit and image of my picture. The coach is clearly in exactly the same spot, taken from exactly the same location, and exactly the same Austin A40 is parked next to it. However, opening up the picture to the same size made it clear that the two images are simply a remarkable coincidence. The other picture was taken several months later, and there are two distinguishing features. Firstly the A40 is facing the other way, and secondly, sadly, someone has made a serious dent in the Crossley’s radiator. Of interest to me is the chrome radiator, which I am not aware of having seen on any other Crossley. Presumably it was an optional extra on coaches. Importantly, the picture and the comments with it gave me some information about what the coach was used for. It appears that it was on regular hire to Stockport High School to ferry sports teams around. Looking at Bus lists on the web, it is clearly one of three similar vehicles delivered in December 1949 to Broughton and Walker of Great Harwood, registered KTE 443/444/446 but more interestingly, KTE 441/442 were similar chassis (and body, although C33F) delivered in October 1949 to Robinson, Great Harwood. Were these perhaps a joint order, or were the two firms linked?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Alan Murray-Rust
07/01/18 – 10:19
More peculiar than the chrome radiator, a lot of later Crossleys had them, so it was probably a customer option. More peculiar is the autovac, something I have never seen before on a Crossley. Given the dubious reputation of the Crossley HOE7 engine, has it been changed for something else?
John Anderson
08/01/18 – 07:13
Broughton & Walker was part of the Holdsworth Group which owned Robinson’s of Great Harwood. They were to all intents and purposes part of Robinson’s, in the same way that Walton & Helliwell of Mytholmroyd was directly run by O.& C. Holdsworth of Halifax. Looking at chassis and body lists it will often be seen that the Holdsworth Group bought batches of a type with consecutive numbers and allocated them to their various subsidiaries.
John Stringer
08/01/18 – 07:14
Oldham Corporation had both single and double deck Crossley buses with the chrome radiator with vertical centre strip.
Philip Halstead
08/01/18 – 07:15
The picture appears to be more complicated. We had an ex-Darwen Crossley that had been cut down for use as a gritter and that had an Autovac – I remember how it gurgled to itself when we shut the bus down. However, I look at photos and see there’s no Autovac on the bulkhead which means it was under the bonnet. As a consequence it’s difficult to tell which Crossleys have one and which don’t. That also doesn’t explain why the one in the photo has one visible on the front bulkhead. Knowing what I do about the operator, I think it’s highly unlikely there was anything but a standard power unit under the bonnet. I note also that this one has had its front wings trimmed back slightly.
David Beilby
08/01/18 – 07:16
The chromium plated radiator shell became an option from 1949. It was usually applied to single deck coaches, but an alternative version without the central dividing strip was offered mainly for double deckers. Older chassis were sometimes retro fitted.
Roger Cox
08/01/18 – 07:16
Could that be an Autovac in 1949… or? Would still be grateful if anyone can tell me what a Potts Patent air Exchanger is, as found on Tony Peart’s 122?
Joe
08/01/18 – 15:49
Surely the car is an A35 as the A40 had a larger back window.
David Wragg
08/01/18 – 16:28
No David, I think its definitely an A40 Somerset. The A35 had, pro rata, a larger rear screen than the A40 Somerset.
John Darwent
08/01/18 – 16:30
And on my A30 and A35 the boot had hinges at the top not the bottom.
Peter
09/01/18 – 06:22
Potts was the MD at Doncaster at the time number 122 was being built. The Patent Air Exchanger is an early form of air conditioning. It consists of a large fan unit that effectively blew fresh air collected at the front of the bus and forced between the upper deck floor and the lower deck ceiling, before venting out of the rear platform. Next time you get to see the bus have a look at the perforations in the ceiling panels where the air comes out. I don’t know if it worked upstairs as well) Tony told me it was a battery flattener (engine off) but was happy to demonstrate it working many years ago.
MikeB
09/01/18 – 06:23
This is an interesting photo: the “twin” photo which initially fooled Alan is to be found here: www.flickr.com/photos/ The Austin A40 has travelled far from its original stomping ground, PJ being registered in Guildford, Surrey. And the poster is also interesting in that it has two accurate “possessive case” plurals, the first apostrophe being after the first “s”, but the apostrophe being before the second “s”, because children/men/women are rare plurals without an “s” on the end! BTW – the society still exists. But I see I’m boring you!
Christopher Hebbron
09/01/18 – 08:16
In the ‘Flickr’ version, the engine cover has either not been closed properly or the vehicle is in a state of distress . . .
Pete Davies
17/01/18 – 05:40
Yes, in the ‘Flickr’ version, it looks like there has been an impact to the front. The registration plate is bent, and possibly the radiator itself has moved back a bit at that point. The result is that neither the bonnet top or side can now be fastened down, hence the “state of distress” so aptly described by Pete! So what happened in the months between the two pictures being taken? We’ll probably never know! Hopefully the coach was carefully repaired.
Michael Hampton
17/01/18 – 05:41
I would guess that Alan’s photo showing the Crossley in reasonable condition is the earlier of the two. The Flikr pic shows the bonnet structure on the point of disintegration and the number plate has been re-profiled by accidental damage. This location must have been the regular parking place for the coach and the Austin. And well spotted, Chris, about the correct application of the apostrophes, something decidedly rare these days.
Roger Cox
17/01/18 – 05:41
Pete- it is either because of the bump mentioned here (look at the lower part of the radiator) or an advanced cooling system- not sure if Crossley needed it but Daimler engines seemed to.
Joe
17/01/18 – 05:42
Mike B- thanks for the info re POTTS PATENT. I’m yet to see 122 at close quarters: it did have a few later close cousins at Leicester Ave I think (but presumably only 7ft 6in wide!) but not seen “Potts” before. It is interesting that a municipality which couldn’t cope with enclosed radiators, automatic changes or 8ft bodies for many years had previously bought a bus with so many “revolutionary” features for that time. What became of Mr Potts and when, because that’s probably the answer? The real need was surely upstairs where the fag fug made breathing difficult!
Joe
17/01/18 – 05:45
It is a pity that the reputation of the HOE7 continues to be unjustifiably traduced. It is certainly true that the earlier versions of the HOE7 were not that successful, but the later downdraught version was a good engine. AEC engineering designers certainly played a large part in that. Birmingham for example managed to get between 18 and 19 years out of their downdraught DD42/6s. According to Messrs Eyre, Heaps and Townsin (Crossley OPC 2002) Birmingham rated their HOE7s rather better than their Daimler engined CVDs. I drove a few thousand miles in HOE7 powered Crossley in the late 60s/ early 70s, and considered their hill-climbing abilities more than acceptable.
John Grigg
17/01/18 – 05:46
The vehicle was certainly in a state of distress when the Flickr photo was taken, with the radiator substantially stove in. Also, that picture has the A40 the other way round, confirming the model. Thank you to those who have sorted the matter of the chrome radiator.
Alan Murray-Rust
17/01/18 – 11:59
I’ve read of Crossley’s HOE7 in different places. Why does it always conjure an impression of one of Birmingham’s Crossleys?
Pete Davies
23/01/18 – 06:28
No, the reputation of the HOE7 has not been unjustifiably traduced. The initial design incorporated the principles of Saurer’s four valve cylinder head, and was outstandingly successful. On the strength of demonstrations by the prototype DD42/1 orders flooded in and Crossley fully anticipated capturing the bulk of Manchester’s future bus requirements. However, when Saurer requested a licence fee for the use of its cylinder head design, Crossley Motors MD Arthur Hubble refused to pay and a hurried two valve redesign was instigated. This crippled the breathing, caused serious crankcase back pressure and led to very high oil consumption, resulting in an unreliable unit that was deficient in power output. Customers who had been impressed by the prototype found that the beast they were receiving was something of a curate’s egg, good in parts (the chassis was excellent apart from heavy steering) but seriously abysmal in the engine department. Many early recipients, notably Manchester, didn’t trust Crossley ever again and never went back for more, though the less demanding nature of coach operation did not tax the engine so severely. When AEC took over Crossley in 1948, it did not have an engine of around 8.5 litres of its own, so it instructed its new subsidiary to rectify urgently the deficiencies of the HOE7, and also offer the DD/SD42 with Gardner engines as options. Hubble, ever resistant to AEC “interference”, soon (and probably deliberately) crossed the equally autocratic Hugh Gardner, who adamantly refused to supply Crossley with any LW engines. AEC then ran out of patience with Crossley and itself produced the design for the greatly improved “downdraught” HOE7/5 in 1949. This differed quite significantly from earlier versions of the HOE7, and conversion of old engines to the downdraught head was an extensive and costly exercise, so most remained unaltered. Incredibly, despite at last having a competitive power unit, Crossley still continued to supply some outstanding customers with the earlier version of the engine, presumably to use up stocks of old components. The downdraught HOE7/5 certainly did remedy the basic faults of the Crossley engine, but by late 1949, when this engine was fully available, the heyday of bus orders was over, and, largely because of its earlier failings, the Crossley Motors undertaking was in terminal decline. Had the original four valve engine been offered as the standard power plant from first production, then the impact of Crossley upon early post war bus deliveries would undoubtedly have been much more significant.
Roger Cox
24/01/18 – 06:02
“My personal honour is more important than the future wellbeing of the company and its workforce…!” A sadly common disease in industry of all descriptions.
Stephen Ford
24/01/18 – 06:03
A few years on, some operators – mostly municipal ones – re-engined their Crossleys with other types presumably removed from older withdrawn vehicles. I’m sure I’ve heard of Gardner 5LW, AEC 7.7 and Leyland 8.6 engines being substituted. If the main deficiency in Crossleys was related to their HOE7 engine and it was otherwise an excellently engineered bus (and especially if it had a well built Crossley body), then this should surely have then made them into good buses. Yet we never seem to hear of how these re-engined Crossleys performed – I’d be very interested to learn, though I don’t suppose there will be many former engineers or drivers with experience of them around these days. I did once drive the former Rotherham Crossley – HET 513 – whilst it was in the care of Geoffrey Hilditch at Halifax. Presumably, being the last DD42 built, it would have had the later redesigned engine, but other than having heavyish steering (though probably no more so than a CVG6) and maybe its performance on hills was not exactly sparkling, I found it a fairly pleasant bus to drive, with the easiest of gearchanges, good visibilty due to the low bonnet line, and possibly the best suspension of any halfcab I’ve ever driven. It got so near to being a really good bus.
John Stringer
24/01/18 – 09:34
The Portsmouth Crossleys were delivered with turbo transmitters, which I understand would have limited performance even more! Those with Crossley bodies (25 of them, new in 1949) were re-engined c.1957-59 with Leyland engines from withdrawn TD4s. In this guise they were switched from cross-town routes such as G/H and O/P to trolleybus conversion routes such as 19/20, this demanding route being extended. Many of the batch also had seating increased from 52 to 58. I think that this amply bears out evidence of the effect in the improved performance from the change in engine for these buses. There were six with Reading bodies which retained original engines and transmission, and were retained on cross-town routes and school specials, etc. I was a schoolboy at the time, so unfortunately driving experience is nil!
Michael Hampton
27/01/18 – 06:23
Roger, thank you for a fascinating insight into the sorry saga of the Crossley HOE7 engine. I don’t know a great deal about Crossley, but am aware through reading various bus articles over the years that there was a problem with at least one of its engine types. It is a real shame that the apparent foolhardiness/stubbornness of Arthur Hubble’s “spoiling the ship for a ha’porth o’ tar” in effect brought the Company down, especially as you say that the prototype proved popular and orders started to flow in. I seem to recall that Dennis had success with its ‘four valves per cylinder’ engines, designed with Saurer involvement. Would I be right in thinking that Dennis simply paid Saurer the licencing fee for the right to build a superior product? Just as Arthur Hubble, with hindsight, should have done?
Brendan Smith
27/01/18 – 06:25
There is no doubt as Roger Cox says, that the post war saga of “what might have been but never was” as far as Crossley is concerned, is a valedictory lesson, but then there have always been personalities in the bus industry with more ego than common sense. I can only speak as I found almost 50 years ago that the FINAL version of the Crossley engine was a fine bit of engineering. Now as to who takes the credit for that whether it be Crossley, AEC, Saurer, or any individual, I know not; and I still believe that particular engine has been unjustifiably maligned because of the wider problems of and within the company.
John Grigg
29/01/18 – 06:35
I often travelled on the Portsmouth Crossleys, both with Crossley engines/Brockhouse Turbo-transmitters and Leyland engines. It is difficult to compare performance of both types, because the original setup required no delays through gear-changing, compared with the Leyland engines/gearboxes. Portsmouth routes being flat would not challenge their hill-climbing abilities.My view is that the conversions took place in order to save fuel, since these engines were running up to the governor whilst accelerating, although they did freewheel along briefly until the next reason to slow or stop. Without the ability to use engine braking, I imagine that brake shoe wear was greater than otherwise, too.
Chris Hebbron
28/10/18 – 08:13
Joe asked in an earlier posting “what became of Mr. Potts and when?” Tom Potts was the first Transport Manager of Doncaster Corporation, apparently took office in 1920 and claimed the chair until he retired in 1953, to be replaced by Tom Bamford. For further info., see the 3-part article on Doncaster Corporation in ‘Buses Illustrated nos. 60-62, for the months March – May 1960!
Dave Careless
04/11/18 – 07:07
My 1967 ‘Little Red Book’ lists A. Kitson & Son at 222 Mottram Road, Stalybridge. Proprietor: J Kitson Rolling stock: 3 coaches Chassis: 2 Crossley, 1 Leyland Bodies: 2 Duple, 1 Burlingham Fleet livery: Green/Ivory
Midland Red (Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Co) 1948 BMMO C1 Duple B40F
This shot was taken in June 2010 at the BaMMOT Museum at Wythall. The beautifully restored example of 45 originally built represents the first post-war coaches introduced by BMMO at their Carlyle works with bodywork by Duple. Based on the service bus (S6) with underfloor engine they were years ahead of their normal control – and half-cab – competitors. Twelve more, designated C2, appeared in 1950 – modifications included an outward opening passenger door (replacing sliding) and reduced seating capacity to 26 to cater for the very popular extended tours. These vehicles gave stirling service and, even though larger coaches had been introduced in the mid 50’s, a number were retained for “coach cruises” where narrower and shorter vehicles were required, Devon, Cornwall and the Scottish Highlands, for instance. A number survived well into the mid 1960’s. Even after their revenue earning life a number of these were converted to dual-control and became driver training vehicles into 1970.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Nigel Edwards
19/06/12 – 11:46
Thank you, Nigel, for bringing this beautiful beast to our attention. Another fine example of the industry-leading designs from the Midland Red stable. These C1’s, and the subsequent C2’s with their widely-spaced seating, must have been a delight to ride in. Spurred on by this photo, I have just visited the BaMMOT museum website and note that this coach is not on their roster. Is it under private ownership?
Paul Haywood
19/06/12 – 13:37
Yes Paul, this vehicle has been in private ownership for many years – the same family I believe – and is, fortunately for us all, a regular rally visitor in many parts of the country. You and other contributors might like to know there is a ‘Midland Red Day’ in October at the BaMMOT, when I am sure this icon will be present. From past experience well worth a visit!
Nigel Edwards
19/06/12 – 16:08
A number of people now have shares in this vehicle. I saw it earlier this year under repair with panels off etc so don’t know when it will be back on the road, but a favourite wherever it goes.
Ken Jones
19/06/12 – 16:09
Thanks, Nigel – I also noticed this event and checked my diary. To my horror, I realised that I had only just booked a 2-day theatre trip for myself, wife and mother-in-law for that very weekend, so it would be suicide if I cancelled – especially for “mere buses”! Ho hum! Next year perhaps?
Paul Haywood
22/06/12 – 15:12
The vehicle repairs are not estimated to be completed before end Dec 2012 and will therefore not be at Wythall on Oct 14. The Group who own it are about 8 persons strong.
Roger Burdett
23/06/12 – 05:36
What a very pleasant surprise to see a posting from you Roger. I am hoping your beautiful C5 (which I have submitted for a future posting) will be at Wythall when I make my ‘pilgrimage’ from Yorkshire in October – may even be able to take a ‘peek’ inside?. Thanks for the update on 3301.
Nigel Edwards
23/06/12 – 21:29
Nigel mentions the twelve successors to the C1 with Duple C26C bodies for extended tour work. Here is 3353, KHA 353, of the C2 class in May 1970 during the HCVC Brighton Rally. I cannot find any current record of this coach. Does it still exist?
Roger Cox
25/06/12 – 17:12
Nigel C5 is unlikely to be there either as it is off by rotation i.e. when you have 18 roadworthy vehicles only a few are on the road at the same time. This was on the road until Sept 2011. If I have few problems then with everything else it might appear.
Roger Only CL2 that still exists (and not in good condition) is 3352. It was in a garden in Wakefield till 1999 when Alan Bishop paid to bring it South. Work was started but I suspect given the size of the task it has been stopped for a few years now. I do not expect it to be restarted under the current owner
Roger Burdett
08/07/12 – 07:37
I serviced these buses at Newton Mearns bus depot (Western SMT) Glasgow Scotland in the 60,s & early 70,s on there turn around to London The innovation of these buses was great the first heavy vehicle I had seen with disc brakes and not drums you couldn’t wait to finish it so you could go for a road test up the Ayr Road, they were great to drive. “OH” how I miss those days when buses were buses and not the junk that they call buses today.
John
09/07/12 – 07:16
3352 stood for years in the drive of a house in Stanley Road Wakefield. It had the name Ronny Storm presumably a kind of pop group.
Philip Carlton
10/07/12 – 06:38
Managed to find picture I took of 3301 under repair as mentioned in recent thread
Ken Jones
10/07/12 – 11:53
A dignified old lady – still looks amazing even when in pieces, long may she live!
Nigel Edwards
21/10/12 – 07:55
3353 was burnt out many years ago, I remember as a small lad I saw it in a yard (farm?) near Cannock with only below window line left. The coach was owned by the 3301 preservation group for spares. It went awol ie pinched by some scrappy about 30 odd years ago. 3352 is in a very bad way, the ribs of the body are all in steel & perished from water ingress so all require replacing, the floor is rotten & half removed. I haven’t worked on it for 10 years & I know nothing will have happened since. Perhaps when it gets passed on it will see the road again. Certainly not with Alan owning it.
Andy Bishop
06/12/12 – 11:56
Kens shot of 3301 under repair (above) took me down memory lane. I did my apprenticeship at Bulwark Workshop In the 1960s. I now live in Melbourne Australia. Keep up the good work.
Mike Jones
06/12/12 – 16:34
Some of us recently had a private visit to Roger Burdett’s place and my article and picture of 3301 as it is now – some 18 months into the restoration – can be seen at www.focustransport.org.uk/
Ken Jones
19/04/14 – 07:33
Many fond memories of this old bus happy hours polishing the grill happy days at rallies across the country my greatest thanks to her old owners Allan, Cliff & Les for letting me ride along so happy to see she is being looked after still may be I get to see her again one day, fond memories.
Christopher Wilkinson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/05/16 – 06:37
I remember taking my drivers test in this bus in the 1970s I already held a full PSV licence having driven on Walsall transport for a number of years. Even then you had to pass the Midland Red test. When you had passed you felt on top of the world.
Here we have a Bedford WTL with Duple C20F bodywork from 1935. She is seen in the livery of Cyril Cowdray (Priory Coaches) of Gosport, another operator put off the road after upsetting the Traffic Commissioner once too often. She was new to Blunt, Mitcham, and spent some time on the Isle Of Man as CMN 986 before returning to the UK. The scene is an Open Day at the Provincial depot, Hoeford, on 8 June 1985.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
10/08/15 – 11:24
This coach has been with J. W. Lodge & Sons of High Easter for some years undergoing a thorough rebuild however I think it was put to one side while they were restoring their Ford T. I believe that their ultimate aim is to have a representative vehicle from each decade that the company has been operating. Since they are well in to their tenth decade that’s quite a fleet of historic vehicles!
Nigel Turner
10/08/15 – 16:04
Thank you, Nigel. Yes, it will be a VERY impressive collection when they decide that it’s complete. “Now, have we room in the garage for another OB?”
Pete Davies
11/08/15 – 16:49
Pete, The whole Lodge operation is very impressive and a credit to the three generations who have built it up over the last 95 years. I have no idea why I referred to them restoring a Ford T in my earlier comment, it is a 1926 Chevrolet
Nigel Turner
25/06/20 – 07:19
Lodge are still very active, but their vintage fleet now consists of Bedfords’ OB, SB, YMT and said Chervolet Charabanc. Sadly, no mention of the WTB.
Chris Hebbron
27/06/20 – 06:44
The WTB project was on display at an event at Lodge’s premises on 24 March 2019. At the time there was a lot of work to do on the vehicle.
David Slater
28/06/20 – 06:56
“I was intrigued about the Bedford WTL chassis, as it seems to have led a rather shadowy life. There is little written about it, either, but some research revealed the following. The first Bedford chassis designed for PSV use was the WHB, built from 1931 to 1933, for a 14-seat body. Only 102 were ever sold. The larger WLB chassis quickly followed, with greater success, with over 2000 built between 1931 and 1938, when production ceased. The WTL chassis was a three-ton lorry chassis, modified to sell as a still-larger PSV, but was not popular as a passenger vehicle in any great numbers, initially with just over 200 being built as such in its first two years, 1935 and 1936, but, nevertheless, it soldiered to receive passenger bodies in penny numbers until 1939. One’s or two’s describe the numbers bought by most operators, although, in 1935, Vauxhall had at least four in use for staff transport, Walter Alexander bought five and at least eight were exported to the Netherlands. Bodybuilders were varied, with small orders using Robson, Thurgood, Wilmott and Willowbrook, Unsurprisingly, however, the majority were bodied by Duple, although, in 1939, several of them were bodied by Plaxton. Those which went to the Netherlands were bodied by two firms, Werkspoor (Amsterdam) and Jurgens. The WTL could, in retrospect, be considered a stop-gap chassis, its far more successful compatriot being the three feet longer WTB, introduced in late 1935.. However, the WTL (as well as the WTB) chassis were upgraded in 1938, which included an all-metal cab area with redesigned front wings. The radiator grill/bonnet area became rounded and modern-looking, foretelling the future OB front, minus radiator cap!. Engine power was increased from 64 to 72bhp.”
Chris Hebbron
28/06/20 – 10:01
One little titbit I omitted from my post of 28/06/20 was that the redesign of the front ends in 1938 was a joint venture with Duple.
Chris Hebbron
28/06/20 – 10:03
BXM 568 Bedford WTL Duple C20F chassis No 875523 body No 5058 New to W E Blunt t/a Mitcham Belle, Mitcham 6/35 5/38 B B Atkinson, Douglas, IoM re reg as CMN 986 4/39 J W A Wightman, Onchan, IoM t/a Sunny Hours Coaches 9/61 L Q Keen, Douglas, IoM (not operated) 4/62 Kirkby Central, Anston (dealer) reverted to BXM 568 5/68 G A Arnold, Holmesfield (preservation) 11/71 Geoffrey Pitt t/a Doug Jones Coaches, Littleton -/73 Howard Herridge, Gosport (preservation) -/75 C Cowdrey t/a Priory Coaches, Gosport (later stored in Mid Hants railway yard at Medstead) 6/93 Ray Dodds, Fareham (preservation) circa -/03 Len Carter, Fareham (dealer) but not moved from Ray Dodds premises) 2/08 Lodge Coaches, High Easter for restoration & eventual return to service in Heritage Fleet.
John Wakefield
02/06/21 – 08:48
I thought this might be of interest to visitors to this site, a newspaper article which appeared in the Fraserburgh Hearld and New Counties Advertiser, 13 January 1931. The article relates to my Gt.Gt Grandfather George Jaffray from Rosehearty, Fraserburgh, who was a master joiner and local businessman. George was fined 25 shillings in the first case of its kind in the Sheriffs Court, for allowing a motor omnibus for which he owned to ply for hire without having painted in conspicuous place the total number of passengers which the vehicle was allowed to carry.
This shot is from the Ray Soper “Gallery” contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
23/02/12 – 09:47
Bournemouth 183 A Bedford OWB with a Duple body was exported to the USA after service in London. It has just been reported in the PSV sheets as changing owners in late 2006 in San Francisco.
John Ashmore
21/07/13 – 07:35
Did some of the late Bedford WTB’s have the OB bonnet style or was this an attempt to modernise the front?
Chris Hebbron
21/07/13 – 08:03
Interesting point, Chris. The OB replaced the WTB in 1939(?) and almost immediately became the war-time OWB, The OB returned in peacetime – around 1946. So is this a WTB or is it simply a pre-war OB?
David Oldfield
21/07/13 – 11:15
This style of bonnet and radiator grille was introduced in 1938 on the WTB and also on all the rest of the W-series range. These were replaced by the K, M and O-series the following year. The WT-series had no external radiator filler cap, and high mounted headlamps, whereas the O-series had an external filler cap and lower set headlamps. This is generally a good way of telling them apart, but in later life it was not at all uncommon for operators to mix and match parts – so it is not 100% reliable.
John Stringer
22/07/13 – 11:26
Thx, John S, for the answer.
Chris Hebbron
10/11/16 – 07:30
This bus was preserved by the Poole and District Model Railway Society. I have a couple of pictures of FEL 216 after restoration in 1967.
Bruce
10/11/16 – 10:37
FEL 216 went from Poole & District Model Railway Society to Tim Salter of Wareham in 10/98 along with sister FEL 218. FEL 218 was later (circa 98) broken up for spares, with the intention to restore 216. From what I can gather very little progress has been made on FEL 216 & it is still owned by Tim Slater. Whilst on the subject of these Bournemouth WTB’s EEL 46 a 1938 Burlingham WTB is now just a rolling chassis after acquisition by Cyril Kenzie in 5/08, the body deemed to bad to restore. The chassis is still with Kenzie.
John Wakefield
10/11/16 – 13:50
Here are a couple of shots after FEL 216 had been preserved by the Poole and District Model Railway Society.
Bruce
25/08/22 – 05:47
Here is a picture of No.15, FEL 218, taken on an HCVC Brighton Rally in the very early 1970s. As John Whittaker comments, this bus was broken up for spares for preserving FEL 216.
Roger Cox
31/08/22 – 07:04
Just an aside, but I read that Yellow Bus, successor the Bournemouth Corporation, went bust on August 4th.
Chris Hebbron
01/09/22 – 07:03
….. and More bus stepped in and seamlessly provided replacement services. They didn’t “take over” Yellowbus in any way, just stepped up.
