Lincolnshire Road Car Company 1950 Bedford OB Duple B27F
LTA 752 is a Bedford OB with Duple B27F body, new to Western National in 1950, but seen here in Lincolnshire colours as a ‘semi toastrack’ for seafront duties at Skegness. The first views shows it in winter guise, while the second view shows it in summer guise. The first view, taken on the 1st January 2009 shows it visiting the King Alfred running day in Winchester, while the second view shows it in the Alton rally on 18 July 2010. I understand that, by 2012, it was with that very well maintained historic fleet of Lodge, High Easter.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
03/11/16 – 06:24
Like many Sheffielders at the time, the Dickinson family had holidays in Skegness. Four of these OBs were employed on the Skeggie sea-front service. Two were open both sides, the other two were only open on the nearside. Numbered 2091/2/3/4, the one pictured was 2094 at the time and came to LRCC, along with 2091, from Western National. 2092/3 came from Eastern National. For this young enthusiast they had to be ridden on each holiday.
Les Dickinson
03/11/16 – 06:25
LTA 752 is indeed with Lodge, Coaches of High Easter. lots of pics of it on Flickr. It now has an entrance door to comply with latest rules & regulations. (cant have passengers falling out can we) Its the only survivor from those OB’s modified (by Duple) as open siders for Lincs Road Car on Skegness sea front service
John Wakefield
03/11/16 – 08:21
Oooh! I’d have insisted going to Skeggie as a child rather than as an adult if I’d known these beauties were doing the seafront duties! And all for 2d each way!
Chris Hebbron
04/11/16 – 06:20
The other plates were as follows;- 2091 -HUO 692; 2092 – ONO 88; 2093 – ONO 89. The first from 1947, the other two 1950. All these three to LRCC in 1958 I believe.
Les Dickinson
05/11/16 – 06:25
Just think 110 miles South and 2d to go “All The Way” would have a quite different connotation. I’ll keep the day job!
John Lomas
17/11/16 – 07:07
Was this the bus which appeared on Watchdog tonight-but blue: the seats are distinctive…
Joe
17/11/16 – 10:52
Here are a couple of shots of mine of LTA by now in the Lodge era, arriving in style at the LVVS Open Day event, March 2013. During the day, it was offloaded, and the window panels removed, revealing the full “toastrack effect”
HOD 75 was new to Western National in 1949. It has a Duple C29F body on the Bedford OB chassis, and the first view shows it in the Southsea rally on 8 June 1980. In this view it is in the livery of Porters of Dummer, near Basingstoke.
This second view, taken in The Broadway, Winchester, and shows it in the markings of Mervyn’s Coaches of Innersdown, also near Basingstoke. It is about to pass NXL 847, AEC Regal from Eastern Belle. The date is 1st January 2009 and it’s another King Alfred running day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
03/04/17 – 08:43
In case anyone is (a) not familiar with the area and (b) interested, Dummer is the home village of Sarah Ferguson, Price Andrew’s “ex”.
Pete Davies
04/04/17 – 07:05
Is this the same OB that turns up in all those wartime dramas pretending to be ten years older than it is?
Ronnie Hoye
04/04/17 – 08:45
Not ten years Ronnie. It was in Foyles War from 1941/42, and I think Miss Marple – So only seven years ish.
Pat Jennings
20/05/18 – 06:08
I’m pretty certain that was the exact same coach that used to take us to school there was two that took us and Porters rotated them sometimes we had the vintage one in the photo and other times we had their ultra modern brand new one.
Paul
14/11/20 – 08:01
It appears in “Woman in Black Angel of Death”, supposedly in 1941 – eight years before it was built!
Ed
16/11/20 – 06:09
Not as bad as the Routemaster that turned up in Foyles War. For a moment I thought I was watching Dr Who, and the Tardis had changed its disguise.
Ronnie Hoye
17/11/20 – 06:20
I understand that the series of Foyle’s War was filmed in Dublin, and the Routemaster was all that was available there.
Here is a view of PYY 28D. She is a Bedford J2SZ2, built for use as a Staff Bus for the Royal Household. The bodywork is a Duple Midland C10F. She started life with registration KLP 1D with the Royal Household and is seen at the National Tramway Museum, Crich, on 30 August 2004. The livery appears to be black. but it is really an incredibly dark and highly-polished green.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
05/12/13 – 06:57
Incredible, Pete. I’d forgotten all about this beast – but cannot remember where I saw it last.
David Oldfield
05/12/13 – 08:41
A fine vehicle indeed, and one that I’ve never heard of before. Presumably the impeccable dark green livery means it was supplied by Harrods “by appointment to H. M. The Queen, suppliers of motor omnibuses” – sorry, just another of my infantile mischievous thoughts !!
Chris Youhill
05/12/13 – 08:58
Nice one Chris – but don’t mock. You never know.
David Oldfield
05/12/13 – 11:39
I believe that ‘purveyors’ is the word, rather than ‘suppliers’, Chris! Much more classy! What is the current situation of the vehicle? Many ‘royal’ vehicles/trains/yachts have very cossetted and long lives – is this one of them? It’s a very stylish vehicle which hasn’t really dated.
Chris Hebbron
05/12/13 – 11:40
This is a very nice looking coach – reminds me of the Maidstone & District Knightrider in it’s livery style (although the M&D one was really black, I think). But is it cheeky to ponder why the Royal Household chose a Bedford coach? Why not go to their supplier of limousines, Daimler? A few years earlier, and they could have had that rarity, a Daimler Freeline. But in 1966, I suppose they would have had a Roadliner supplied to them – perhaps they had already heard of it’s reputation!
Michael Hampton
05/12/13 – 11:43
There was also a Bedford VAS3 with a Willowbrook DP20F body new in 1972. This vehicle had an outward opening door. It was often seen at Aberdeen railway station taken staff and luggage to and from Balmoral. This vehicle is now preserved as RBY 764 K.
Stephen Bloomfield
05/12/13 – 15:06
…..but before….. The Monarch’s current ride is a Bentley. The prior ride was a Rolls Royce. Before that, they used Daimler cars – but pre-war it was Crossley cars…..
David Oldfield
05/12/13 – 15:07
Chris H, She appears in the PSVC listing for 2012. That’s where I obtained the detail of her previous registration. Has anyone heard any rumblings about when the next issue may be out? Think yourselves lucky, folks, as you nearly got a jet fighter after I hit the wrong button. Peter spotted the mistake before I did!
Pete Davies
05/12/13 – 17:51
By chance, Chris Youhill is nearly right because the Queen does use Harrods for her transport requirements. In this instance, it is D & H Harrod Coaches of Downham Market, Norfolk who are “By appointment to her Majesty the Queen, Suppliers of Coach Hire”
Nigel Turner
06/12/13 – 06:36
I’m sure this is the one that was at the Kirkby Stephen Easter rally this year. I’ve seen it a couple of times at recent rallies. I believe it has recently been advertised for sale in Bus and Coach Preservation magazine.
Eric Bawden
06/12/13 – 08:22
Very good, Nigel. For the benefit of those including me who have always thought it was HARROLD, here’s a view of the Warrant. It is indeed HARROD.
Pete Davies
17/12/13 – 06:48
I can’t let the comment about Maidstone & District’s Knightrider coach go uncorrected. It was indeed a dark refined colour, quite different from the fleet colours. Although it might look black in black & white photographs – and some colour renditions, too – it was in fact dark blue.
Petras409
17/12/13 – 14:26
Thank you Petras for your correction re the livery of M&D’s Knightrider coach. It makes the comparison with the Royal Household coach more pertinent, as both could appear black to a casual observer, but are actually very refined liveries in their respective colours.
Michael Hampton
17/12/13 – 15:07
Petras409 makes reference to the Maidstone and District Knightrider livery of dark blue. I have recently acquired a M&D cap badge which is dark blue and not the usual Green. I was informed that it was for staff working on the Knightrider, can anybody confirm this? A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all
Stephen Howarth
19/12/13 – 06:50
Coaches belonging to Charles Rickards of London (later Frames Rickards) carried the Royal Warrant for many years. I imagine that there will be other operators, in addition to Harrod’s, with a Royal Warrant. Downham Market seems nicely placed for Sandringham.
David Call
30/05/15 – 06:54
PYY 28D has now reverted to KLP 1D and was seen at The Llandudno Transport Festival in May with these plates, and a check on DVLA web site confirms this.
John Wakefield
31/05/15 – 06:43
It would seem that the Knightrider was named after M&D’s head office, based in Knightrider House, Knightrider Street. Was this coach designed for special work or what?
Chris Hebbron
06/06/15 – 08:10
Yes the Knightrider coach was designated into a series of its own LC1 (Luxury Coach), but was never operated in public service. It was effectively a directors’ limousine, used for high profile visits to outposts of the Maidstone & District empire. Its 16 leather seats were sumptuously laid out in a version of the Harrington Wayfarer body, mounted on a petrol engined Commer Avenger chassis It was kept in a state of permanent readiness at Sittingbourne depot, in fine fettle, but clocked up a very low mileage. The picture from the web (Commons copyright free) shows its midnight blue livery well. NKN 650 survives in restoration and must have involved very little restorative work by its current owners, after its undemanding life with M&D. I was privileged to have a ride in it, on the occasion of a colleague’s retirement bash, while still with M&D. It provided such a quiet, refined ride. Possibly the most luxurious coach ride of my life – the only thing that was missing was the gin & tonic from the cocktail cabinet. This last comment is a lifestyle point, not a definitive statement about the presence (or absence) of such a fitment.
Petras409
07/06/15 – 06:19
Thx, Petras409 for the fulsome explanation and additional photo. In those days, a petrol engine still had the cache of seeming luxurious over a diesel. Did it have a Bedford engine, Petras?
Chris Hebbron
07/06/15 – 06:21
Interesting comment from Petras about “Knightrider” in respect of the drinks cabinet. Grossly off topic, I know, but readers might find this amusing. I was using my ‘old dodders’ bus pass’ a few months ago, and was in Southsea, returning to Southampton. A lady in a wheelchair boarded, and commented on how old the bus was (S prefix, 1998). “Where’s the wide screen television?” she asked. “And the drinks machine?” The driver replied that he’d been naughty, and had been given this one by way of punishment (I suppose it’s better than a school run!) A few minutes later the lady had managed to fit the wheelchair into the space, and apologised thus: “Sorry about the delay in settling, folks, but my wheelchair’s put on a few extra inches since Christmas!”
Pete Davies
07/06/15 – 06:23
Why did M&D feel the need to have a dedicated Directors coach (Salford’s Committee coach comes to mind here)? I suppose at Salford there wouldn’t have been any other “suitable” [sic] vehicle for the Transport Committee to travel in, but surely M&D had enough front-line coaches to put one at the disposal of the Directors – neighbours Southdown and East Kent (companies with a similar commitment to coaching, and others such as BMMO and Ribble) didn’t feel the need for this extravagance . . . or was that the point, keeping ahead of the Jones’s?
Philip Rushworth
20/11/15 – 06:48
For Chris Hebbron’s information the Commer Avenger petrol engine was a six cylinder OHV Humber unit as also used in the Imperial Limousine and in the Commer QX lorry. For the Avenger and the QX it was mounted at an angle of 60 degrees to reduce intrusion into the cab.
Stephen Allcroft
17/10/16 – 09:08
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Just to revert back to this post, I am trying to trace a subsequent Bedford that also carried the KLP 1D mark. This was a 1985 Bedford PJK chassis No FT103932 with a cut down Duple Dominant 2 body C16F No 8507/0600 new to Kensington Palace in 6/85. This appeared on eBay in July 2014 with seats removed after an aborted attempt to turn it into a caravan. It was sold to a number plate dealer who sold off the KLP 1D mark to the owner of the J2 (PYY 28D) which is now re united with its original mark. The PJK was reported to have been sold on with another (unknown) registration number to a school or charity organisation possibly for a greenhouse! I am trying to trace this vehicle so if anyone spots it or knows where it is I would like to know through this website. The pic shows it in 2014 when it appeared on eBay.
John Wakefield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
08/11/17 – 07:15
On 5th Nov, I was at the Lincoln Vintage Vehicle Society running event, and noticed this little charmer parked up among the other smaller exhibits. I thought, I have seen this somewhere before, and yes, it is there in the OBP site in some earlier guise. It carried various window displays about its illustrious history and the front window card stated “Lincoln via Aidensfield” which suggests where it had been in the recent past.
Rob Hancock
09/11/17 – 07:09
The Duple Dominant Royal coach has been found at Sutton House & Breakers Yard a National Trust property at 2-4 Homerton High Street, Hackney, London. Its been made into a greenhouse with the chassis and floor cut away to give ground level access. Here is a link to pics of KLP 1D https://www.flickr.com/ and a link to the Sutton House web site. https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk
John Wakefield
10/11/17 – 06:46
If you are on a site which doesn’t readily accept right click Copy & Paste. You can usually use Ctrl C for copy and Ctrl V for paste.
As there appears to be no picture of this lovely coach on OBP , I am attaching one. It has been in preservation for many years with Carmel Coaches of Northlew in Devon and can still be seen at local events in the West Country. It was for a while used on Dartmoor Summer Sunday services connecting with trains – and other bus services – at the then newly restored Southern Region station at Okehampton. Initially the route was the 174 to Moretonhampstead where it met the cross Dartmoor 82 between Exeter and Plymouth. For a couple of glorious summers, the 174 was extended onto Widecombe in the Moor using some very narrow lanes. The Albion coped well with the lanes and the hills including the very steep one into Widecombe. One difficulty was with other traffic as visitors and indeed locals seemed to be unable/unwilling to reverse their vehicles in these lanes. This became a major problem when the Pony Club had their occasional meet on the Moor as their exodus with large vehicles or trailers – all at the same time – coincided with the last journey from Widecombe which had to connect with the said 82 and the last train at Okehampton. The owner of the Albion, who was the regular drive on almost every Summer Sunday over the years, was always patient and courteous and I am grateful to him for the opportunities to ride the coach. The photo is taken at Hound Tor before the steep descent into Widecombe.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton
28/08/17 – 10:12
This is a Victor FT39N powered by the Albion 75 bhp 4.88 litre four cylinder diesel engine that was delivered new to Way of Crediton in 1950. I believe that the gearbox is a five speed constant mesh unit. Nowhere can I find the stated capacity of the Duple bodywork, but this was usually 31 or 33.
Roger Cox
29/08/17 – 06:36
Roger, My 1993 edition of Preserved Buses, Trolleys and Trams gives LOD 495 as an FT39AN with a Duple FC31F body.
Dave Farrier
30/08/17 – 07:57
Thanks for that confirmation about the bodywork, Dave. As for the chassis designation, this is FT39AN as you state, but it was often shortened with the ‘A’ omitted. Why? I don’t know, or indeed what the letter itself stood for. The final ‘N’ indicated the “normal” 16ft wheelbase, the longer 16ft 11ins version having the letter ‘L’ instead. The ‘A’ cannot have indicated an initial variant because the post 1956 versions became the FT39KAN and KAL. Perhaps it indicated forward control, but I know of no normal control examples. I have to admit that the some of the (pre Leyland) Albion company’s type numbering seemed to have no logical basis that I can discover. The initial Viking/Valkyrie/Valiant/Victor were classified as PA/PB/PC etc up to PW which clearly meant successive passenger variants. Then came the Venturer M81 and the Valorous M85, which were superseded in 1937 by the Valkyrie and Venturer CX. After WW2 the Victor name reappeared as the FT as seen above, contemporary with Valiant/Viking/Venturer models all classified CX, and the KP underfloor model. Then under Leyland ownership came the Nlmbus MR9 and the Aberdonian MR11, though the latter had no design similarity with the shorter Nimbus, being essentially a lighter weight version of the Tiger Cub. Then some degree of logic returned with NS for Nimbus (again with AN suffix), LR for Lowlander, VT for Victor, VK for Viking, before the Albion name disappeared forever. (Another firm with puzzling model designations was Thornycroft, but that is by the way.)
Roger Cox
31/08/17 – 04:56
At risk of seeming foolish, did the A stand for Albion (engine)? Valorous belongs to the Wulfrunian school of bus naming & then Valkyrie? With whole dictionaries to go at! I’ll stick, BMW/Mercedes style with CVD6 and K6A!
Joe
01/09/17 – 05:48
Possibly, Joe, but why didn’t the contemporary Albion engined Venturer CX19 and CX37, Valiant CX39, Viking CX41 (a variant of which was called the HD61 – again why?) and the experimental KP71NW have the ‘A’ also? The numbers, always odds rather than evens, seem to have had some sequential logic albeit with gaps, though the number 39 was duplicated for the Victor and Valiant models. Perhaps Bletchley Park could come up with the answers to the Albion nomenclature.
Roger Cox
01/09/17 – 05:49
In John Gillham’s book “Buses and Coaches 1945-1965”, he says that the FT 39 Victor was introduced in early 1947, and that a modified version, known as the “FT 39 AN” appeared at the end of 1951, with the long wheelbase “FT 39 AL” following some three years later. The same thing happened to the Nimbus in 1960, when the NS3N was replaced by the NS3AN. I take this to mean that the A was just a spec-update marker, rather as Leyland would later use it on PSU3A (and on to G), AN68A etc.
Graham Woods
01/09/17 – 05:50
Roger, according to definitive book ‘Albion of Scotstoun’ (Adama & Milligan) the ‘A’ suffix indicated improvements to the previous version, including a larger wormwheel assembly on the rear axle, improved braking, heavier springs, flexible radiator tubes, improved fuel filtration and minor wheelbase alterations. The insertion of the ‘K’ before the ‘A’ indicated a later variant fitted with the larger EN287 5.5 litre engine (replacing the EN286 4.88 litre unit) and heavier front springs.
John Stringer
01/09/17 – 15:19
Thank you Graham and John. That explanation does make sense. Back in its vastly superior days when Classic Bus was under Gavin Booth’s editorship it included a series of comprehensive articles on the history of the Albion passenger ranges by Alan Townsin. Sadly I gave all my copies away after being totally disenchanted with the magazine’s altered and self obsessed guise under subsequent editors. I remain rather baffled by the type letters of the heavier Albion models which all, passenger and haulage, seem to have been classified CX. In addition to the Venturer CX19 and 37, the Valiant CX39 and the Viking CX 41, there were the CX1 7 tonner, CX3 6½ tonner, CX5 12 tonner six wheeler and CX7 eight wheeler 14½ tonner. The FT3 code included a haulage version for 4 to 5 ton loads and one suspects that the straight framed FT39 Victor was a simple derivative from it. This webpage gives a list of some pre 1945 Albion types, though it is far from comprehensive in detail:- www.autogallery.org.ru/m/albion.htm
Roger Cox
02/09/17 – 08:08
Sorry to dive off the main subject but I just want to say how much I agree with Roger about Classic Bus magazine. Totally ruined by the Best Impressions outfit and a total rip-off based on the lack of content and acres of empty space on the pages. I have lapsed my subscription in disgust. There I feel better now!
Philip Halstead
02/09/17 – 08:54
Interesting comment on Classic Bus as I feel it has gone the other way and improved enormously making it more readable and not just for the anorak which is where Gavin (an extremely knowledgeable guy) was taking it. Best forgotten is the editor in-between. Even if I am not totally in agreement with the content I still keep my subscriptions going as if we lose the magazines Bus & Coach History and reach to the public will be diminished and ultimately it makes the movement more fragmented
Roger Burdett
27/11/21 – 06:22
Researching this vehicle again it is pretty certainly a FT39N model of 1950, 25ft 6 ins chassis length. The engine is certainly the 4.88 litre EN 286, but the gearbox is a four speed constant mesh unit. The brakes were vacuum servo. The FT39AN, which appeared in 1951, had the engine moved forward a bit and the rear overhang extended slightly enabling 33 seats to be accommodated within the bodywork.
Black and White Motorways 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Duple C37C
Seen at their base in Cheltenham Coach Station on Sunday 20 August 1967 on Associated Motorways services are two members of the Black and White Motorways fleet. 182 (PAD 182) is a Willowbrook bodied Guy Arab LUF, new in 1955 and 222 (8222 AD) is a Duple bodied AEC Reliance new in 1961. Both are 37 seaters, with a centre entrance, which was standard for Black and White at the time, apart from a batch of 5 Roe Dalesman bodied Reliances new in 1959, which had 41 seats and a front entrance. The somewhat flamboyant Duple body on 222 contrasts with the restrained, classic elegance of the ECW bodied Bristol MW in Royal Blue livery alongside, also on Associated Motorways work.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell
05/09/12 – 08:45
Another gem! I never experienced Cheltenham Coach Station, but I had two years of coach travel between Birmingham and Lancaster in the 1966/68 era. A veritable rainbow on steroids.
Pete Davies
05/09/12 – 08:46
What a great pic. Things aint what they used to be. Thanks for sharing that.
Les Dickinson
06/09/12 – 06:53
As an AEC (and Bristol) man, it’s amazing how many Guy Arab UF/LUF coaches have pitched up on this forum in recent months. I never came across one personally, but it is significant how many of you hold them in high regard and great affection.
David Oldfield
07/09/12 – 07:17
On that subject, David, in 1955 Northern General took delivery of 16 Weymann Fanfare’s, 6 on AEC chassis went to Wakefield’s, the other 10 for Northern were on Guy Arab UF/LUF and had the almost indestructible Gardner 6HLW. They had quite long lives for coaches, they were re-trimmed an re-seated by Plaxton’s in 1964 and were still around in 1968. Sadly I don’t think any survived into preservation, but to my mind the Fanfare was timeless classic that wouldn’t look out of place now
Ronnie Hoye
07/09/12 – 07:19
I worked in and out of Cheltenham from Eastbourne in the summer during the early 70’s when working for Southdown arriving to connect with the 16:00 hrs mass departure and leaving the next day with the 14:00 hrs departure these mass departures were a sight to behold looking chaotic but in reality very well organised any late arrivals contacting the control office to advise of any onward connections so that only those services needing to be held back were. I remember the Reliance/Duple coaches by that time relegated to mainly duplicate journeys and were not very popular and known to all Black & White drivers as “Bubblecars” usually given to first season drivers who were then told to follow the service car he then found the service driver with the well known request “don’t lose me as I’ve never done this run before”. I never lost one and always felt sorry for them as I felt it was not a good way to learn any route especially one like ours which took around 7 hours. One of the station inspectors told me they could get around 140 coaches in the yard, to me it seemed they proved it on many summer Saturdays and as this was in the very early days of National white livery with many vehicles still in company colours it was a truly magnificent sight also of course there were many private company vehicles on relief journeys which added to the spectacle. Oh happy days.
Diesel Dave
08/09/12 – 07:31
I agree about the Weymann Fanfare, Ronnie.
David Oldfield
10/09/12 – 07:30
Ronnie and David, the Northern General Guy Arab LUFs with Weymann Fanfare bodies were my favourite coaches of all time – see half way down this page //sct61.org.uk
Peter Williamson
11/09/12 – 06:39
As you say on the other site, Peter, the Guy Weymann’s were extensively used on the Newcastle – Liverpool service and that was pre motorway era, so regardless of the route you took it involved a lot of up’s and downs on single carriageway roads, but it says a lot about the vehicles that they lasted as long as they did, reliability was never an issue but at times seating capacity was
Ronnie Hoye
27/05/14 – 14:00
I Remember it well driving my new 53 seater Ford with Plaxton body on dupe from Leicester to Cheltenham and ending up in Devon on service, Anyone out there remember the old Caff in Bridgewater open all night.
I Williams Ex N & S Travel
07/03/20 – 07:25
During the late fifties to mid sixties my family travelled at least once every year from Eastbourne to Cheltenham to stay with my Aunt and family. A seven to eight hour journey through every town and village from south to north west. I, as a child thought the older coaches were very comfortable, probably Guy’s. They left Eastbourne Southdown depot in a queue, Black and White coaches being a highlight of the trip. I remember coach drivers changing places by a complex arm link dance on the move. Pretty common for those days on long trips.
Potteries Motor Traction 1964 AEC Reliance 2U3RA Duple C49F
Potteries Motor Traction took delivery of six of these fantastic vehicles in 1964 they had the AEC 590 engine and 6 speed ZF manual gearbox. Drivers and passengers loved them, 4989 VT won the 1964 Brighton coach rally. I have not driven a coach before or since as good as these splendid vehicles. The company got rid of these vehicles in 1976 the older drivers like myself still talk about them now, there was nothing like driving down the third lane of the M6 motorway at about 75MPH which at that time was legal. Oh happy days.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
11/08/13 – 08:31
Brings back happy memories of Sheffield United Tours and Cyril (C G) Littlewood with their ZF Reliances roaring in and out of Pond Street to and from the north of Scotland, the south of England and continental venues as far away as Switzerland, Italy and Yugoslavia. As Michael says, fantastic vehicles – to ride in and to drive,
David Oldfield
14/08/13 – 11:17
Back in 1965-67 I used to do a regular monthly trip through PMT land, usually starting off with a ride from Manchester to Leek on North Western’s X1 (operated by the previous year’s Y-types, quickly relegated from the X5 to London). After a visit to Berresfords in Cheddleton I’d carry on to Hanley to see what was new with the independents there and then return to Manchester on PMT’s afternoon X2 departure. On one occasion this was operated by this very machine which made a pleasant change – PMT were in the habit of throwing any old rubbish at this route with lowbridge Atlanteans quite common at busy times. You never realised how uncomfortable these were until you’d spent two hours on one!
Neville Mercer
31/10/13 – 07:16
I remember 4989 VT, as I sometimes travelled to School on it when it was operated by a firm from Bugbrooke Northamptonshire. They sold it in around 1975. I believe it is in that great Coach park in the sky now more’s the pity. The regular driver said it was good for 90 mph on the motorway. No Tachographs or Speed Limiters in them days!
Stemax1960
01/11/13 – 08:12
Overheating was a problem with these six coaches when driven for long periods in 6th gear such as on motorway work. Some had 6th gear blanked off which had the consequence of lowering the top speed but ensuring reasonable fan revolutions. Fleet number C991 had a tandem radiator fitted, from memory as an AEC initiative to overcome the problem. Whilst I can remember the fitment, I can’t recall the result! Too many years ago. I assume that SUT and other Operators had the same problem?
Ian Wild
01/11/13 – 13:51
I remember a journey from Great Yarmouth to Sheffield in August 1968. Part of the route was on the A1 around Newark, fast, even in those days. We were “going like stink” with our C reg, SUT, 2U3RA Reliance (with AH590) – 356-365 batch. Suddenly we were doing about 30mph – for quite some time. Later, when I questioned the driver, he said she was overheating so he slowed up to give her a chance to cool down. SUT put an experimental air scoop under the grille of B reg 349 – from 346-355 – but this was not entirely successful and was subsequently removed. As I have said before, the wet-liner AH590 – and its problems – lost AEC a lot of friends. Others like SUT and Yelloway persevered and the AH691 and AH760 repaid their persistence. Heavyweight ZF Reliances were thoroughbreds which were a delight to drive and to ride in. The AH590 let the side down.
Potteries Motor Traction 1964 AEC Reliance 2U3RA Duple C49F
Potteries C989 registration 4989 VT was an AEC Reliance 2U3RA with a Duple Commander I body delivered in early 1964. One of it’s early duties was an appearance at that years Brighton coach rally where it won the Coach of the Year trophy with favourable comments from the judges on both the interior and exterior designs which is understandable when viewing the simple but elegant lines with the attractive livery applied in a layout that follows the lines of the coachwork, a feature sadly missing on many of todays vehicles. The photo was taken outside Southdown’s Royal Parade garage in the summer of 1964 when on an extended tour.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
26/02/15 – 06:20
I remember them well! These six coaches C986-991 were the backbone of the extended tours fleet. They could be relied on to complete the tour without difficulty, rather more than can be said for the six Roadliner coaches. Their only vice was a tendency to overheat when driven for long periods in 6th gear. For one of these fine Reliances in a bit of trouble, see my posting in the Galleries headed A Potteries Motor Traction Coach in a spot of bother
Ian Wild
26/02/15 – 15:16
By the winter of 1965/66 they were regulars on the X2 from the Potteries to Manchester – I used to get the afternoon departure after a round trip from Manchester to Leek (via NWRCC’s X1 – usually a “VDB” Y-type) and then visits to Berresfords at Cheddleton and Hanley town centre. I guess that PMT didn’t do much in the way of extended tours in the winter.
Neville Mercer
04/03/15 – 15:42
I have been driving buses for about 45 years and have never driven a vehicle so superb as these AEC Duple Commander’s. The finest coach I have ever driven.
Michael Crofts
06/03/15 – 06:39
I remember this when it was operated by Sabelis Concorde Coaches from Bugbrooke. I travelled to school on it. The regular driver said that it would sit at 80mph all day. That was in 1974, before Speed Limiters were foisted on the world.
Stemax1960
06/03/15 – 11:03
I looked up this batch in my spotting notes and turned up the following results (if you excuse the pun): C986/987/989 parked in Priory Road in Anfield for the Everton v Stoke City match (1-1) on 12/12/1964. C990 parked in Priory Road in Anfield for the Liverpool v Stoke City match (3-2) on 03/05/1965 (same season as above). C991 parked at the Adelphi Hotel on Lime Street in Liverpool, almost certainly the team coach, for the Liverpool v Stoke City match (2-1) on 30/09/1967. C988, seen but not logged. Where did 50 years go?
Aldershot & District Traction Co 1970 AEC Reliance 6U3ZR Duple C49F
Having vacillated for some time before settling upon an underfloor engined saloon chassis, even buying some full fronted Dennis Lancet III coaches in 1953, Aldershot & District finally chose the AEC Reliance as its standard single decker, and stayed with this model for its coach requirements right up to its subjugation to Thames Valley (mis)management from January 1972 under the new guise of Alder Valley. Seen here in The Grove alongside Aldershot Bus Station is No.596, VCG 596H, the first of four 6U3ZR Reliances supplied in 1970 with Duple C49F coachwork sporting the (to my eye) hideous Detroit “inspired” front grille that spoilt many of the later Duple designs. Aldershot & District bought two more Reliances of the 6U3ZR specification in 1971, but these had the aesthetically more pleasing Plaxton C49F coachwork. VCG 596 passed to Alder Valley from 1 January 1972 as No. 49.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
22/12/18 – 06:37
I have to say that I like this coach! Functional, neat without meaningless frippery: where is the Detroit? Burlingham, Whitson, Yeates, other Duple perhaps…this is more Turin!
Joe
22/12/18 – 12:11
Joe – the “Detroit”-inspired part is the full-width chromed grille, which does look rather “overpowering” to my eyes. The chromed strip that runs the length of the body and at across the front at headlight level is also an excessive amount of polished metal. In a monochrome photo, and wearing a livery with various colours, it doesn’t look so bad, but with a different “livery”, and in colour, the effect is pretty dire:- https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php I see from other photos that Southdown had the sense to specify their RUF-H batch of Leopards with the same body without the chromed strip on the sides, but they were stuck with the grille. The polished metal soon went out of fashion, but the advent of the Dominant with curved side windows made the Commander look very old-fashioned in just a couple of years.
Nigel Frampton
26/01/19 – 06:48
The 36ft long AEC Reliance with the AH691 engine & the later AH760 power unit was a real drivers coach & the best premium weight coach on the market until the Volvo B58 surpassed it. With a Reliance the only thing to watch is they tended to run a bit hot on sustained motorway journeys. My boss instructed his drivers to keep an eye on the temperature gauge & if it starts to climb, drop a gear & keep it down to 55 to 60 MPH while it drops. Good advice, never had overheating on later Reliances. Leyland Leopard, very good, but I think the chassis was more suited to a service bus body rather than a premium coach. As a coach, the gear ratios were all wrong on a semi auto Leopard, but in terms of reliability & strength of the chassis they were unsurpassed.
Andrew Spriggs
26/01/19 – 09:59
Not sure about the overheating: if you had a Sunbeam Imp with the usual gasket problem, going faster improved the air cooling effect!
Joe
06/03/19 – 07:17
I think the overheating problems associated with the Reliance were mainly confined to the wet lined AH470 engine, later replaced by the more successful, dry lined AH505. The least said about the Hillman Imp, especially the very early examples, probably the better.
John B
26/09/19 – 05:53
I have always seen what you refer to as the Detroit-style grille (I have to agree with Joe that it is more Turin than Detroit) as a clean and elegant successor to the grimace-like grille applied to later Bella-series Duple bodies, itself a massively disappointing successor to the original Bella grille which to my mind was a natural update to the earlier butterfly design.
Eastern Scottish 1949 AEC Regent III 9612E Duple L27/26R
This would of been a lovely shot apart from the glare on the front upper deck but then again it does not take anything away from the sleek lines of a Duple bodied bus. There is as usual the decoration associated with Duple more a coach than a bus builder on this vehicle which did spoil the looks sometimes. I started looking into the history of this operator but what a minefield Scottish Omnibuses Ltd was made up of three separate operators Eastern Scottish, Baxter’s Bus Service and Stark’s Motor Services. I think the history of the Scottish Bus Group of Alexander, Highland Omnibuses, MacBrayne, S.M.T. and Scottish Omnibuses is far to complicated for this posting more for an article if anybody is up to it.
I liked these Duple bodies with the mouldings. However, am I right in thinking that Duple only made lowbridge versions with these features? I can’t think of any highbridge examples. I’d love to be proved wrong.
Paul Haywood
As far as I know you’re dead right about there having been no highbridge Duples of this design on AEC chassis, more’s the pity. The Red and White group had a number of very nice examples of both lowbridge and highbridge design on Guy Arab III chassis though. In addition to the “home fleet” four highbridge models were delivered to the Venture, Basingstoke fleet in 1950. These were reallocated to the former Newbury and District fleet when only a few months old. Here they joined one highbridge and two lowbridge examples of a similar vintage, all of which survived in Thames Valley ownership until 1968. Newbury depot also had some utility highbridge Guys and, following a couple of low bridge incidents when highbridge vehicles had been allowed to accidentally strayed onto the Lambourn road it was decided to renumber them in a series H1-H16, the splendid Duple bodied examples being H10 (the original N&D example) and H13-6 (the former Venture vehicles). The two lowbridge vehicles, which had platform doors and heaters as well as what were effectively dual purpose seats from new and which had been chosen to compete with the Lambourn Valley railway on the Newbury – Lambourn routes, retained their original numbers, 170/1. I quite literally grew up with these buses and they were absolutely superb. The highbridge examples were a little less luxurious than the lowbridge but still of a very high spec. Despite being non standard in the Thames Valley Bristol/ECW fleet they were very well thought of by both drivers and engineering staff and were both well used and beautifully presented throughout their lives. The two lowbridge examples were still invariably on all day workings up to their withdrawal. Sadly, despite rumours to the contrary none survived to see further service or preservation as at the time of their withdrawal Gardner engines were worth a fortune and all seven of these are believed to have ended up powering junks in Hong Kong! The buses that they came from were all scrapped very quickly thereafter. A beautiful Red and White highbridge example lives on in preservation though.
Dave Wilder
19/09/13 – 18:08
This AEC Regent would have been new, or acquired, to SMT Scottish Motor Traction and is seen in a variant livery in the transition to Scottish Bus Group, which was created ca 1964 and reorganised the SMT companies into Western SMT, Central SMT and Eastern Scottish, and the Alexander’s empire into Midland, Fife and Northern. The Edinburgh SMT company had changed to Scottish Omnibuses, to differentiate itself from SMT Motors (the original parent), which continued as a Vauxhall dealership in Edinburgh Fountainbridge and Lothian Road. Scottish Omnibuses had acquired/merged with Stark’s Dunbar, Baxter’s Coatbridge and Lowland Omnibuses (all over the Borders). The first two retained their liveries and identities into the 70s.
David Scott
09/10/13 – 08:29
Somewhat belatedly, may I add some clarification to one or two of David’s remarks? This vehicle would have been new to Scottish Omnibuses: they had 20 in all, BB61-80, GSF644-GSF663. All the constituent companies of the Scottish Bus Group pre-date its formation. Western SMT and Central SMT both date from June 1932. Alexander’s dates from 1914 although the familiar ‘W Alexander & Sons’ name was only introduced in 1924; prior to that, the company had been known as Alexander’s Motor Services. The ‘split’, which created Midland, Fife and Northern took effect on 15 May 1961 although the empire had been split, operationally, into Southern, Fife and Northern Areas prior to that, not to mention David Lawson of Kirkintilloch which was purchased in 1936 but retained as an operating subsidiary until it was absorbed by the newly-created Midland company in 1961. The history of SMT and its various fleetnames is complex. SMT operated its first bus on 1 January 1906. The bus company split from SMT Sales & Servicing at the time of Nationalisation in 1949 but secured an agreement to retain the SMT fleetname for a limited period; the legal name became Scottish Omnibuses Ltd, though. Coaches started appearing with both SMT and Scottish Omnibuses fleetnames in 1959 although, in 1961, the SMT was dropped. In 1963 the fleetname ‘=Scottish=’ made its debut but the SMT diamond was resurrected after about a year, before the company finally settled on ‘Eastern Scottish’ in late 1964. Stark’s Motor Services of Dunbar was taken over on 1 January 1964. From about the mid-50s, however, buses on the Dunbar to Edinburgh service, which was co-ordinated with the SMT and United services over the same stretch of route, carried SMT diamond fleetnames and a reversed SMT livery. After takeover, the Stark’s livery was slightly revised and Stark’s fleetnames were carried by all vehicles operating from Dunbar and North Berwick depots; the Stark’s livery was retained for 15 years. (And, yes, this does mean that the SMT fleetname was carried by certain vehicles when they were owned by Stark’s whilst the Stark’s flletname was carried after they were owned by SMT!) Baxter’s Bus Service was acquired on 1 December 1962 and, initially, buses operating the former Baxter’s routes were painted in a revised version of the SMT light-green livery. The management in Edinburgh, however, not for the first time – or the last – out of touch with operations in the West of Scotland, seriously underestimated the loyalty of the people of Airdrie and Coatbridge towards their local operator; within a few months, after considerable disquiet and criticism in the local press, the management realised their error and Baxter’s blue livery and fleetnames started reappearing on Victoria depot’s buses. This arrangement remained until 1977. When David mentions “Lowland Omnibuses (all over the borders)” he may be mixing the formation of Lowland Scottish in 1985 with the purchase of Lowland Motorways of Shettleston on 13 January 1958. Lowland Motorways’ services to the East of Glasgow and their vehicles, hitherto painted in an attractive livery of two shades of green, were all taken over and their livery disappeared. Lowland Scottish, on the other hand, took over all of Eastern Scottish’s depots in the Borders and, additionally, the former Stark’s depots at Dunbar and North Berwick. Interestingly though, in view of events 25 years later, in May 1960, Stark’s were short of vehicles and hired one from SMT; knowing of Stark’s liking for Leylands, SMT sent them the ex-Lowland Motorways’ prototype Tiger Cub H106, LYS943, and this operated for Stark’s for a very short period.
Alan Hall
06/01/15 – 05:47
The 20 Duple bodied AEC Regent IIIs were the only Duple bodied AEC double deckers built for anybody. There were a large number of highbridge bodies built to this or a similar design, most notably the Red & White Guy Arab IIIs, but also the 60 bodies supplied to Edinburgh Corporation in 1952 (finished by Nudd Bros & Lockyer, part of the Duple group) on reconditioned ex London wartime Guy Arab II (5LW engines apart from one fitted with a 6LW). These had a partial full front body, but the remainder of the body was the same.
Harry Barker
06/01/15 – 09:39
The bodies on the ex LT Edinburgh Guy Arabs were not quite the same, Harry. Though based on similar frames, they were built to an extremely lightweight specification that offered a truly spartan level of interior finish. OBP does have a contribution on these buses.
Roger Cox
10/02/17 – 16:51
I well remember that when the ‘Scotties’ paid their annual exchange visits to YTC at Barnsley in the early sixties, they travelled in AEC coaches with pre selector gearboxes. I seem to remember taking one off the inspection pit as no one knew how these gearboxes worked, except the apprentices who were studying them at collage at the time, and we didn’t have them at the time and in fact never ran the type with the bus-bar ‘Clutch.’ Can anyone tell me about these Coaches which were very luxurious and had toilet facilities and each seat was provided with a travelling rug for the passenger.
ELJ Tracky Lad
17/02/17 – 06:45
Scottish Omnibuses had some AEC Regal IVs with Alexander bodies, dating from 1951/3, which match the description – 9821E/9822E chassis and C30Ft bodies. I must say I’m surprised if some of them retained that configuration into the 1960s though. A couple of photos, one from each batch: https://flic.kr/p/Gd9DoGhttps://flic.kr/p/nbGwHd
Peter Williamson
18/02/17 – 06:50
Sorry, I’ve just noticed that the Regal IV coach in the second photo I linked to above had been rebodied in 1957. BLOTW says it was Alexander again, although it doesn’t resemble any Alexander body I’ve ever seen.
Peter Williamson
11/07/17 – 06:50
The AEC by Alexanders registered KSC was damaged in an accident when it came off the A68 at Soutra Hill in snow on its way to London. Alexanders Falkirk fitted a 1955 style front when repairing it. This 1953 coach was one of a pair which had a pseudo Seagull coach line to its side appearance. Noticeable by its hybrid style, I saw this refurbished coach once or twice in Edinburgh.
Eastern Belle Motor Coaches (London) 1953 AEC Regal III 6821A Duple C39F
I am a contributor to Focus Transport main site, their blogsite and other sites, I hired a 1950’s AEC half canopy as part of my 60th birthday celebrations to take invited guests for lunch in a 1928 Pullman Carriage at the Spotgate Inn in Staffordshire (www.spotgateinn.co.uk) With no heating the guests survived low temperatures in the morning and the snow on the way home, but everyone had a great time. Very atmospheric. The vehicle is part of the Roger Burdett collection, and stopped in two suburbs in Birmingham as well as Lichfield to collect guests on the way to the restaurant and followed the same route back. The pictures were taken on arrival at the Spotgate Inn and just before departure back to the West Midlands. Most guests took pictures of the vehicle – the first time for nearly all of them that they had travelled on such a vehicle.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
11/03/12 – 09:17
My word, what a truly magnificent vehicle – that well worn word “classic” must surely apply here – and in a livery uncannily like that of Samuel Ledgard. They say that “you learn something new every day” and I believe its the first time I’ve ever seen a thirty foot long Regal or even been aware of such a variant. It must surely be one of the most handsome vehicles of the “good old days.”
Chris Youhill
11/03/12 – 19:35
Very impressive. It might be the camera angle, but it looks a very long vehicle!
Chris Hebbron
11/03/12 – 19:51
As Chris says a true classic and what a fine vehicle. It is however surprising that a half cab design was selected for such a quality heavyweight coach as late as 1953 as underfloor models had been readily available for a couple of years by then. I agree 30ft long half cab coaches were pretty rare. Other examples I can immediately recall were a batch of Guy Arab half cabs with Roe coach bodies bought by Lancashire United for the Tyne-Tees-Mersey service about the same time.
Philip Halstead
12/03/12 – 06:44
Now you DO surprise me, Chris Y. What about the 1953 Doncaster 30′ Roe bodied Regal IIIs? (…..and I thought one of those had been preserved). The bodies are almost identical to the West Riding 30′ Roe bodied PS2s. PS2s and 9.6 Regal IIIs were rarer than PS1s and “7.7” as were 30′ rarer that 27’6″ – but there were still appreciable numbers.
David Oldfield
David Beilby
Crossley produced 54 30-foot long chassis. However, nearly all of the received full-front bodies, with only eight being of the traditional half-cab layout. Coach design was in an experimental phase at this time, as ten for the USAF had raised rear saloons and a further three were half-deckers.
David Beilby
12/03/12 – 16:04
Yes, David – I’d also thought of the Doncaster 30ft Regals. However, in defence of Chris Y, they had a straight-sided profile with deep windows which didn’t emphasise the length. However, this beautiful Eastern Belle example looks like a 27’6 version stretched to 30′. Indeed, I now see that EFE made a model of this coach, but using their 27’6″ mould with six side windows instead of the Eastern Belle’s seven. I wonder if, in 1953, the Duple staff had to delve into the back of the stores to find the patterns and templates for this late example from a different era. A rash question to our knowledgeable readers, but was this the last curved-sided half-cab ever made?
Paul Haywood
12/03/12 – 16:05
Here an example of a Lancashire United Guy Philip alluded to. The Roe body is not dramatically different from the Duple style. They were built in 1950. https://secure.flickr.com/ For some reason the page does not display correctly in IE you will have to scroll down to find the picture all other browsers work fine.
Chris Hebbron
12/03/12 – 17:17
What Ken did not mention but makes it rarer is that it is 7ft 6ins not 8ft. The West Riding PS2s from 1953 (I have one of those as well) are much bigger vehicles and 8ft
Roger (rbctc)
12/03/12 – 19:08
There’s a picture of the West Riding Leyland half cab mentioned above at //www.focustransport.org.uk she’s commonly referred to as Ethel because of her registration plate
Ken Jones
13/03/12 – 06:37
Barton Transport had a Duple A coach body which they lengthened themselves to a 30ft 39 seater as part of their BTS1 re-building programme, I think it was the only only one which retained a half cab body. No doubt they had lots of spare body parts from all their alterations but perhaps it wasn’t as easy as may be thought, I imagine it would have involved altering the body pillars to correspond with the increased wheelbase but the side window pattern on the finished product was exactly the same as on the one above.
Chris Barker
13/03/12 – 06:38
Don’t forget the possibly largest batch (?) of 30 foot half cab coaches, Royal Blue’s 1951 Bristol LL6B/Duple C37F, 24 in number.
Dave Williamson
14/03/12 – 06:54
In my last post, I forgot about the further 14 Bristol LL6B/Duple C37F which Southern/Western National acquired in 1951 for their own fleets.
Dave Williamson
15/03/12 – 09:30
Again though the Royal Blue Ls were 8ft.
Roger (rbctc)
15/03/12 – 12:07
……..and nothing as late as 1953. Unless someone knows different?
Paul Haywood
16/03/12 – 07:23
David O. mentions the three Roe-bodied 30′ Regal III’s for Doncaster. According to the PSV Circle’s chassis list for the type, the previous three chassis numbers to these were three seemingly identical Roe-bodied buses supplied to the Belfast Steamship Co. of Liverpool. I have never otherwise heard anything else about these buses, or ever seen photographs of them. Does anyone have any information about these totally overlooked machines? The list shows around 50 Regals with seating capacities of 37 or over, so which were probably of the longer length – surprisingly AEC did not give them a different chassis code. There were 108 Leyland PS2 30-footers: 12 Roe-bodied buses for West Riding. 6 Roe-bodied coaches for West Riding (with the similar bodies to the LUT Arabs). 71 buses for C.I.E. (with their own bodies) 14 East Lancs-bodied buses for Burnley, Colne and Nelson. 1 Burlingham-bodied coach for Wilkinson’s, Sedgefield. 1 Burlingham-bodied coach for Harding’s, Birkenhead. 1 Heaver-bodied coach for City Coach Co. 2 Observation Coaches for U.T.A. bodied by themselves. The City Coach and U.T.A. examples were six-wheelers with a temporary additional lightweight front axle, to legitimise their 30′ length prior to the relaxation in the length limit. They were designed to be removed when this came into force.
John Stringer
16/03/12 – 08:36
C H Roe (Geoff Lumb) p82 shows a Belfast Battle, sorry, Steamship bus – of 1954. These are quoted as being the same as the 1953 Doncaster examples. I believe that there were earlier 27’6″ examples before and also Regal IVs.
David Oldfield
17/03/12 – 16:31
This Eastern Belle coach (NXL 847) was the company’s second similar vehicle. In 1951, they had taken MLC 343, a photo of which is included in Eric Ogden’s ‘Duple’ book. Were the Royal Blues 8 feet wide? The LL chassis was the 7ft 6in version, the 8ft option being the LWL. Southern/Western National introduced white steering wheels to denote 8 feet wide vehicles; the photos I’ve seen of the Royal Blue LL6B coaches have the traditional black steering wheels. There were more than the 108 30 foot PS2 Tigers listed by John Stringer. In the PSV Circle Leyland PS2 chassis list, as well as those 108, 44 of the PS2/3 are quoted as 30 feet long, with the note that ‘there may be others’. It seems that early production 30 footers were conversions from the shorter models (Doug Jack’s ‘The Leyland Bus’).
Dave Williamson
18/03/12 – 07:55
My Duple L LTA 898 has a white steering wheel and whilst I would not stake my life savings on it I think is 8ft. On the PS2 8ft vehicles most were buses and I think only the West Riding were 1953
Roger (rbctc)
18/03/12 – 09:00
I rather think white steering wheels to remind drivers that the vehicle was 8ft wide was standard Bristol practice.
Roy Burke
19/03/12 – 09:10
West Riding’s last PS2s came in 1953 some of these had Roe coach bodies Burnley continued to buy PS2s until 1955 and these (fitted for OMO) lasted until the early seventies
Chris Hough
19/03/12 – 17:28
Two of the contributors to this thread mentioned the Regal IIIs supplied to Doncaster Corporation.
I’m happy to attach a photo of number 22, taken at it’s home at Sandtoft Transport centre.
Andrew Charles
20/03/12 – 16:01
What great pictures, Andrew, of a superb and beautifully preserved vehicle. 22 is just fabulous, and shows how well Doncaster’s livery could look when clean and fresh, which, at the risk of offending anyone, I have to say it often wasn’t. The use of front-engined vehicles for one-man operation was, I think, quite rare. It must have required some twisting and turning for the driver.
Roy Burke
21/03/12 – 07:28
As Roy rightly says, the use of front engined vehicles for one person operation was comparatively rare, but certainly not rare enough. The degree of contortion necessary for the driver at every stop was totally unacceptable and must have been the cause of spinal and inner organ damage. Much scoffing is aimed these days at “Health & Safety” which can admittedly sometimes be over the top, but in this particular instance it should have been applied with full force to prevent this ludicrous practice. I should juts clarify that I’m referring to front engined vehicles of the traditional layout – a modern exception of course being the wonderful, in my humble view and from experience, Ailsa Volvo double decker – a vehicle whose incredibly skilful design allowed a front engine, adequate passenger flow on the platform, comfortable room for the driver, and 79 seated passengers conveyed reasonably speedily by a 6.7 litre engine. I’ve always had the feeling that the sales figures of the Ailsa were mortally wounded by the unreasonable fear of the layout which the ill fated Guy Wulfrunian left as its legacy.
Chris Youhill
21/03/12 – 07:29
Am I correct in thinking that an operator called Homeland Tours bought a number of 30ft Leyland Comets? I’m sure I’ve seen a picture somewhere, I would imagine they really were unique!
Chris Barker
22/03/12 – 08:07
Re Chris’s comments about the Ailsa, I don’t think anyone would make comparisons with the Wulfrunian because it was well documented that the problems there were caused by Guy overreaching itself with advanced braking and suspension systems. What operators probably were fearful of was the small turbocharged engine, an idea which was virtually unknown in Britain then. In other words, a bus ahead of its time.
Peter Williamson
22/03/12 – 13:35
There were some outstanding bus liveries around and one nomination I would give is to West Bromwich Corporation, witness the preserved Daimler CVG6-30 seen HERE: https://secure.flickr.com Pity that, whenever I caught glimpses of them lurking around in Brum, they were always as tatty as Hell! It didn’t help that B’ham Corp’n generally kept their vehicles impeccable.
Chris Hebbron
22/03/12 – 13:36
Homeland Tours was an operator based in Croydon during the post war years who had a number of Leyland Comets with Strachans C37F bodies. As a schoolboy in the Croydon area in the 1950s, I used to see these coaches about frequently. I believe that these vehicles were actually owned and operated by Wallace Arnold to whom Homeland had “passed” the licences and goodwill. Homeland Tours still exists as a travel agent in Croydon.
Roger Cox
23/03/12 – 06:40
Regarding the Ailsa Peter, the engine theory is an interesting one which I hadn’t thought of. In the event though, any concerns about the performance and longevity of those tiny Volvo engines have proved to be unfounded, and the performance of their immediate successors leaves me full of admiration. For example, the speed at which the Volvo B7TLs ascend Royal Park Road (very steep) on the 56 service in Leeds with around ninety passengers, while confidently changing gear upwards, is nothing short of amazing – those long in the tooth like me recall the 7.7 litre Mark V AEC Regents whistling, wheezing and protesting at little more than walking pace when heavily loaded.
Chris Youhill
23/03/12 – 09:33
Thanks, Chris H for the link to the West Bromwich Daimler. A very smart vehicle indeed. It made me think about other liveries, and I wondered what other correspondents’ favourites might be. East Yorkshire’s indigo and primrose has its fans, and from my own neck of the woods, York Pullman was always both smart and attractive, (and it still exists). Any nominations?
Roy Burke
23/03/12 – 16:43
Sheffields smart cream and blue always smartly turned out was a favourite The many variations in the late lamented Black Prince livery again always smart Pennine Motors unusual orange and black The LCT one man livery was always smart though often dirty Others will no doubt have their own choices. One other to mention is the Leeds blue and cream pre-war livery on both buses and trams examples of which happily survive.
Chris Hough
24/03/12 – 09:16
Just one more from me then, City of Oxford. This photo of an AEC Regent III with Weymann lowbridge body (a pseudo LT RLH) shows of its livery superbly. See HERE: //www.fotolibra.com/
Chris Hebbron
24/03/12 – 12:17
Indeed many of us have our favourite “traditional” liveries, and with good cause, when we have to live with some of today’s ghastly and inappropriate offering, most of which make me despair as to where the Industry is going. I just wish the “marketing” fraternity would stick to promoting baked beans etc. and that operators would cease wasting so much money on garish and incomprehensible horrors which the travelling public are probably unaware of and totally disinterested in. Rant over, but not for long, as I feel so strongly about this issue that I can rarely get it out of my mind. Now then, another favourite livery or two of mine – Southend Corporation’s beautiful light blue and rich cream, especially when they spent their money wisely against the 1960s trend by increasing the number of places on the intermediate destination blinds from three to six – the expression “getting your priorities right” springs to mind. How about the most dignified Accrington Corporation dark navy and red – different and sombre, yes, but most impressive.
Chris Youhill
24/03/12 – 18:12
Yes Chris, Accrington’s was indeed a most dignified and distinctive livery. I once read in a book somewhere that it was first applied after World War I, as a mark of respect to the many Accrington Pals killed in action. Their regimental colours were red and blue with gold lining. It is also said that the mudguards of the buses were painted black at the same time, as a sign of mourning. However, other operators also had buses with black mudguards over the years, so I’m not quite so sure about the latter. A very touching tribute nonetheless though, to such brave men.
Brendan Smith
25/03/12 – 09:11
I agree with Chris Youhill’s hatred of modern corporate colour schemes (I hesitate to grace them with the title “liveries”). My particular dislike is having windows plastered with stupid advertising tosh. WINDOWS ARE FOR LOOKING OUT OF! If they want to cover them over they may as well save on glass and just panel the sides in altogether (as they have the rear of many vehicles).
Stephen Ford
25/03/12 – 09:12
I’m waiting for Chris Y to vote for South Yorkshire Motors, (from West Yorkshire) whose Oxford/Cambridge blue was very handsome & well maintained despite the age of some of the vehicles. As someone said, Doncaster’s Crimson Lake was potentially good, but attacked by filthy roads around collieries until it went a sort of dark maroon. Doncaster’s old livery never had any names- just the coat of arms. The old umbery East Midlands had a mention here- but it was dropped for the ultimate in boring. Perhaps the most horrific “new” livery was South Yorkshire Transport’s (not to be confused) Yuk yellow & red, with some dreadful graphics. What a far cry….
Joe
25/03/12 – 09:13
The Accrington livery up to the late sixties also included black window surrounds on the lower saloon, which I always think set it off. This may be the black that was referred to rather than the wings.
David Beilby
25/03/12 – 12:07
As many will know Joe, I spent my last fourteen years with South Yorkshire Road Transport (and several successors) at Pontefract Depot. The vehicles were indeed well maintained and smart, inside and out, and I can’t imagine many private firms employing a team of four daytime lady cleaners Monday to Friday to keep the interiors of around twenty vehicles in pristine order. These splendid ladies left no stone unturned and could often be seen on their knees washing with difficulty the seat support rails and other areas usually unknown to the average cleaner elsewhere. There honestly were amusing occasions when a vehicle had to be rapidly collected from the depot for an unexpected changeover – I have personally experienced leaping into a cab and setting off promptly for the bus station to hear an anguished cry from up aloft – “Just a minute luv”, and two of the worthy ladies would come downstairs with buckets and mops and alight just in time to avoid being whisked away to Doncaster or Barnsley !! The original South Yorkshire Motors livery of two blues and rich cream with traditional fleetname was indeed a classic one. When the Company was reconstituted (still under family ownership) as South Yorkshire Road Transport Limited the livery gave way to the familiar modern one of two blues and stark white ir-rational (to me) rectangular shapes, and bold white large fleetnames. Rumour has it that the white shape of the lower forward panel was to emphasise the presence of the front wheels which I suppose had some merit – but I have to say that I found the new livery to be a retrograde step and I didn’t particularly like its layout and the stark white.
Chris Youhill
26/03/12 – 07:44
Here Here Chris re. modern liveries! Absolutely awful. You mention the superb Southend pale blue and cream, laid out in traditional fashion. It was enough to inspire Bradford to change in 1942 when they borrowed some Southend trolleys. I think the best traditional liveries were those employed by the Tilling Group, but perhaps my own personal all-time favourite was the deep green with cream stripes of that wonderful AEC fleet, Morecambe and Heysham Corporation, which showed off the lines of classic Park Royal and Weymann bodywork with real flair. Them wer t`days all right
John Whitaker
26/03/12 – 10:34
I recall the attractive M & H livery on one visit there, with typical ‘tramway’ lettering and fleet numbers. The buses had no route numbers/letters.
Chris Hebbron
01/04/12 – 08:43
I had the chance to ride on this excellent coach again today and got a picture of the engine. I do hope it is of interest to you.
Ken Jones
29/04/12 – 16:56
I was at the Irish Transport Heritage Bus & Coach rally at Cultra, Holywood, Co. Down on 28th April and saw it tucked away. A lovely example and a welcome visitor. I didn’t get the best shot but here is a link to my photo on Flickr //www.flickr.com/
Robin Parkes
03/05/12 – 08:48
600 mile round trip to take Eastern Belle to Belfast with 20 passengers-must be one of the longest trips for a half-cab in 2012 and it ran perfectly.
Roger rbc
05/01/13 – 15:40
Whilst (laboriously) digitising my slide collection I came across this view of NXL 847 – then in a two-tone green livery – as it prepared to depart from the HCVC Brighton Rally in 1973.
John Stringer
06/01/13 – 11:19
1973 was the year I graduated from University and NXL 847 “Eastern Belle” belonged to Waltham Forest Council Welfare Services at the time. – Thanks to Roger Burdett – current owner for this information
Ken Jones
16/11/13 – 11:06
Having been born in Bow, East London I remember Eastern Belle Coaches very well. In the fifties our street would book a coach with eastern belle to take us to see the Southend Lights. I also remember their garage being a very crampt premises on the Bow Road. I took my first car there for an MOT in the early sixties and remember seeing two redundant dust covered AECs wallowing in the corner. I am now 70 years old but never forget these lovely well kept vehicles.
B Greaves
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
15/04/16 – 09:19
Re the comment posted by John Stringer (16/03/12) regarding, the two “observation coaches” built on PS2 chassis by the UTA they were eventually rebuilt (along with many other PS2’s) into PD2/10C deckers with UTA 60 seat bodies. Curiously both survive in this format – one is preserved and the other is a former playbus.
I see this old thread has risen again, thanks to a wonderful view from Bill Headley. Thank you for posting! I note the exchanges of thought about the Ailsa. I’m not sure if the claim is still made (if it ever was!) but I seem to remember the Volvo cars were designed for a 22 year life. No wonder their bus engines performed as healthily as CY reports!
Pete Davies
16/04/16 – 09:15
Not true of the B6 engine, Pete. The B6 was a dreadful attempt at a Dart clone, and a complete abomination.
