Potteries Motor Traction 1964 AEC Reliance 2U3RA Duple C49F
Potteries C989 registration 4989 VT was an AEC Reliance 2U3RA with a Duple Commander I body delivered in early 1964. One of it’s early duties was an appearance at that years Brighton coach rally where it won the Coach of the Year trophy with favourable comments from the judges on both the interior and exterior designs which is understandable when viewing the simple but elegant lines with the attractive livery applied in a layout that follows the lines of the coachwork, a feature sadly missing on many of todays vehicles. The photo was taken outside Southdown’s Royal Parade garage in the summer of 1964 when on an extended tour.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
26/02/15 – 06:20
I remember them well! These six coaches C986-991 were the backbone of the extended tours fleet. They could be relied on to complete the tour without difficulty, rather more than can be said for the six Roadliner coaches. Their only vice was a tendency to overheat when driven for long periods in 6th gear. For one of these fine Reliances in a bit of trouble, see my posting in the Galleries headed A Potteries Motor Traction Coach in a spot of bother
Ian Wild
26/02/15 – 15:16
By the winter of 1965/66 they were regulars on the X2 from the Potteries to Manchester – I used to get the afternoon departure after a round trip from Manchester to Leek (via NWRCC’s X1 – usually a “VDB” Y-type) and then visits to Berresfords at Cheddleton and Hanley town centre. I guess that PMT didn’t do much in the way of extended tours in the winter.
Neville Mercer
04/03/15 – 15:42
I have been driving buses for about 45 years and have never driven a vehicle so superb as these AEC Duple Commander’s. The finest coach I have ever driven.
Michael Crofts
06/03/15 – 06:39
I remember this when it was operated by Sabelis Concorde Coaches from Bugbrooke. I travelled to school on it. The regular driver said that it would sit at 80mph all day. That was in 1974, before Speed Limiters were foisted on the world.
Stemax1960
06/03/15 – 11:03
I looked up this batch in my spotting notes and turned up the following results (if you excuse the pun): C986/987/989 parked in Priory Road in Anfield for the Everton v Stoke City match (1-1) on 12/12/1964. C990 parked in Priory Road in Anfield for the Liverpool v Stoke City match (3-2) on 03/05/1965 (same season as above). C991 parked at the Adelphi Hotel on Lime Street in Liverpool, almost certainly the team coach, for the Liverpool v Stoke City match (2-1) on 30/09/1967. C988, seen but not logged. Where did 50 years go?
Aldershot & District Traction Co 1970 AEC Reliance 6U3ZR Duple C49F
Having vacillated for some time before settling upon an underfloor engined saloon chassis, even buying some full fronted Dennis Lancet III coaches in 1953, Aldershot & District finally chose the AEC Reliance as its standard single decker, and stayed with this model for its coach requirements right up to its subjugation to Thames Valley (mis)management from January 1972 under the new guise of Alder Valley. Seen here in The Grove alongside Aldershot Bus Station is No.596, VCG 596H, the first of four 6U3ZR Reliances supplied in 1970 with Duple C49F coachwork sporting the (to my eye) hideous Detroit “inspired” front grille that spoilt many of the later Duple designs. Aldershot & District bought two more Reliances of the 6U3ZR specification in 1971, but these had the aesthetically more pleasing Plaxton C49F coachwork. VCG 596 passed to Alder Valley from 1 January 1972 as No. 49.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
22/12/18 – 06:37
I have to say that I like this coach! Functional, neat without meaningless frippery: where is the Detroit? Burlingham, Whitson, Yeates, other Duple perhaps…this is more Turin!
Joe
22/12/18 – 12:11
Joe – the “Detroit”-inspired part is the full-width chromed grille, which does look rather “overpowering” to my eyes. The chromed strip that runs the length of the body and at across the front at headlight level is also an excessive amount of polished metal. In a monochrome photo, and wearing a livery with various colours, it doesn’t look so bad, but with a different “livery”, and in colour, the effect is pretty dire:- https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php I see from other photos that Southdown had the sense to specify their RUF-H batch of Leopards with the same body without the chromed strip on the sides, but they were stuck with the grille. The polished metal soon went out of fashion, but the advent of the Dominant with curved side windows made the Commander look very old-fashioned in just a couple of years.
Nigel Frampton
26/01/19 – 06:48
The 36ft long AEC Reliance with the AH691 engine & the later AH760 power unit was a real drivers coach & the best premium weight coach on the market until the Volvo B58 surpassed it. With a Reliance the only thing to watch is they tended to run a bit hot on sustained motorway journeys. My boss instructed his drivers to keep an eye on the temperature gauge & if it starts to climb, drop a gear & keep it down to 55 to 60 MPH while it drops. Good advice, never had overheating on later Reliances. Leyland Leopard, very good, but I think the chassis was more suited to a service bus body rather than a premium coach. As a coach, the gear ratios were all wrong on a semi auto Leopard, but in terms of reliability & strength of the chassis they were unsurpassed.
Andrew Spriggs
26/01/19 – 09:59
Not sure about the overheating: if you had a Sunbeam Imp with the usual gasket problem, going faster improved the air cooling effect!
Joe
06/03/19 – 07:17
I think the overheating problems associated with the Reliance were mainly confined to the wet lined AH470 engine, later replaced by the more successful, dry lined AH505. The least said about the Hillman Imp, especially the very early examples, probably the better.
John B
26/09/19 – 05:53
I have always seen what you refer to as the Detroit-style grille (I have to agree with Joe that it is more Turin than Detroit) as a clean and elegant successor to the grimace-like grille applied to later Bella-series Duple bodies, itself a massively disappointing successor to the original Bella grille which to my mind was a natural update to the earlier butterfly design.
Eastern Scottish 1949 AEC Regent III 9612E Duple L27/26R
This would of been a lovely shot apart from the glare on the front upper deck but then again it does not take anything away from the sleek lines of a Duple bodied bus. There is as usual the decoration associated with Duple more a coach than a bus builder on this vehicle which did spoil the looks sometimes. I started looking into the history of this operator but what a minefield Scottish Omnibuses Ltd was made up of three separate operators Eastern Scottish, Baxter’s Bus Service and Stark’s Motor Services. I think the history of the Scottish Bus Group of Alexander, Highland Omnibuses, MacBrayne, S.M.T. and Scottish Omnibuses is far to complicated for this posting more for an article if anybody is up to it.
I liked these Duple bodies with the mouldings. However, am I right in thinking that Duple only made lowbridge versions with these features? I can’t think of any highbridge examples. I’d love to be proved wrong.
Paul Haywood
As far as I know you’re dead right about there having been no highbridge Duples of this design on AEC chassis, more’s the pity. The Red and White group had a number of very nice examples of both lowbridge and highbridge design on Guy Arab III chassis though. In addition to the “home fleet” four highbridge models were delivered to the Venture, Basingstoke fleet in 1950. These were reallocated to the former Newbury and District fleet when only a few months old. Here they joined one highbridge and two lowbridge examples of a similar vintage, all of which survived in Thames Valley ownership until 1968. Newbury depot also had some utility highbridge Guys and, following a couple of low bridge incidents when highbridge vehicles had been allowed to accidentally strayed onto the Lambourn road it was decided to renumber them in a series H1-H16, the splendid Duple bodied examples being H10 (the original N&D example) and H13-6 (the former Venture vehicles). The two lowbridge vehicles, which had platform doors and heaters as well as what were effectively dual purpose seats from new and which had been chosen to compete with the Lambourn Valley railway on the Newbury – Lambourn routes, retained their original numbers, 170/1. I quite literally grew up with these buses and they were absolutely superb. The highbridge examples were a little less luxurious than the lowbridge but still of a very high spec. Despite being non standard in the Thames Valley Bristol/ECW fleet they were very well thought of by both drivers and engineering staff and were both well used and beautifully presented throughout their lives. The two lowbridge examples were still invariably on all day workings up to their withdrawal. Sadly, despite rumours to the contrary none survived to see further service or preservation as at the time of their withdrawal Gardner engines were worth a fortune and all seven of these are believed to have ended up powering junks in Hong Kong! The buses that they came from were all scrapped very quickly thereafter. A beautiful Red and White highbridge example lives on in preservation though.
Dave Wilder
19/09/13 – 18:08
This AEC Regent would have been new, or acquired, to SMT Scottish Motor Traction and is seen in a variant livery in the transition to Scottish Bus Group, which was created ca 1964 and reorganised the SMT companies into Western SMT, Central SMT and Eastern Scottish, and the Alexander’s empire into Midland, Fife and Northern. The Edinburgh SMT company had changed to Scottish Omnibuses, to differentiate itself from SMT Motors (the original parent), which continued as a Vauxhall dealership in Edinburgh Fountainbridge and Lothian Road. Scottish Omnibuses had acquired/merged with Stark’s Dunbar, Baxter’s Coatbridge and Lowland Omnibuses (all over the Borders). The first two retained their liveries and identities into the 70s.
David Scott
09/10/13 – 08:29
Somewhat belatedly, may I add some clarification to one or two of David’s remarks? This vehicle would have been new to Scottish Omnibuses: they had 20 in all, BB61-80, GSF644-GSF663. All the constituent companies of the Scottish Bus Group pre-date its formation. Western SMT and Central SMT both date from June 1932. Alexander’s dates from 1914 although the familiar ‘W Alexander & Sons’ name was only introduced in 1924; prior to that, the company had been known as Alexander’s Motor Services. The ‘split’, which created Midland, Fife and Northern took effect on 15 May 1961 although the empire had been split, operationally, into Southern, Fife and Northern Areas prior to that, not to mention David Lawson of Kirkintilloch which was purchased in 1936 but retained as an operating subsidiary until it was absorbed by the newly-created Midland company in 1961. The history of SMT and its various fleetnames is complex. SMT operated its first bus on 1 January 1906. The bus company split from SMT Sales & Servicing at the time of Nationalisation in 1949 but secured an agreement to retain the SMT fleetname for a limited period; the legal name became Scottish Omnibuses Ltd, though. Coaches started appearing with both SMT and Scottish Omnibuses fleetnames in 1959 although, in 1961, the SMT was dropped. In 1963 the fleetname ‘=Scottish=’ made its debut but the SMT diamond was resurrected after about a year, before the company finally settled on ‘Eastern Scottish’ in late 1964. Stark’s Motor Services of Dunbar was taken over on 1 January 1964. From about the mid-50s, however, buses on the Dunbar to Edinburgh service, which was co-ordinated with the SMT and United services over the same stretch of route, carried SMT diamond fleetnames and a reversed SMT livery. After takeover, the Stark’s livery was slightly revised and Stark’s fleetnames were carried by all vehicles operating from Dunbar and North Berwick depots; the Stark’s livery was retained for 15 years. (And, yes, this does mean that the SMT fleetname was carried by certain vehicles when they were owned by Stark’s whilst the Stark’s flletname was carried after they were owned by SMT!) Baxter’s Bus Service was acquired on 1 December 1962 and, initially, buses operating the former Baxter’s routes were painted in a revised version of the SMT light-green livery. The management in Edinburgh, however, not for the first time – or the last – out of touch with operations in the West of Scotland, seriously underestimated the loyalty of the people of Airdrie and Coatbridge towards their local operator; within a few months, after considerable disquiet and criticism in the local press, the management realised their error and Baxter’s blue livery and fleetnames started reappearing on Victoria depot’s buses. This arrangement remained until 1977. When David mentions “Lowland Omnibuses (all over the borders)” he may be mixing the formation of Lowland Scottish in 1985 with the purchase of Lowland Motorways of Shettleston on 13 January 1958. Lowland Motorways’ services to the East of Glasgow and their vehicles, hitherto painted in an attractive livery of two shades of green, were all taken over and their livery disappeared. Lowland Scottish, on the other hand, took over all of Eastern Scottish’s depots in the Borders and, additionally, the former Stark’s depots at Dunbar and North Berwick. Interestingly though, in view of events 25 years later, in May 1960, Stark’s were short of vehicles and hired one from SMT; knowing of Stark’s liking for Leylands, SMT sent them the ex-Lowland Motorways’ prototype Tiger Cub H106, LYS943, and this operated for Stark’s for a very short period.
Alan Hall
06/01/15 – 05:47
The 20 Duple bodied AEC Regent IIIs were the only Duple bodied AEC double deckers built for anybody. There were a large number of highbridge bodies built to this or a similar design, most notably the Red & White Guy Arab IIIs, but also the 60 bodies supplied to Edinburgh Corporation in 1952 (finished by Nudd Bros & Lockyer, part of the Duple group) on reconditioned ex London wartime Guy Arab II (5LW engines apart from one fitted with a 6LW). These had a partial full front body, but the remainder of the body was the same.
Harry Barker
06/01/15 – 09:39
The bodies on the ex LT Edinburgh Guy Arabs were not quite the same, Harry. Though based on similar frames, they were built to an extremely lightweight specification that offered a truly spartan level of interior finish. OBP does have a contribution on these buses.
Roger Cox
10/02/17 – 16:51
I well remember that when the ‘Scotties’ paid their annual exchange visits to YTC at Barnsley in the early sixties, they travelled in AEC coaches with pre selector gearboxes. I seem to remember taking one off the inspection pit as no one knew how these gearboxes worked, except the apprentices who were studying them at collage at the time, and we didn’t have them at the time and in fact never ran the type with the bus-bar ‘Clutch.’ Can anyone tell me about these Coaches which were very luxurious and had toilet facilities and each seat was provided with a travelling rug for the passenger.
ELJ Tracky Lad
17/02/17 – 06:45
Scottish Omnibuses had some AEC Regal IVs with Alexander bodies, dating from 1951/3, which match the description – 9821E/9822E chassis and C30Ft bodies. I must say I’m surprised if some of them retained that configuration into the 1960s though. A couple of photos, one from each batch: https://flic.kr/p/Gd9DoGhttps://flic.kr/p/nbGwHd
Peter Williamson
18/02/17 – 06:50
Sorry, I’ve just noticed that the Regal IV coach in the second photo I linked to above had been rebodied in 1957. BLOTW says it was Alexander again, although it doesn’t resemble any Alexander body I’ve ever seen.
Peter Williamson
11/07/17 – 06:50
The AEC by Alexanders registered KSC was damaged in an accident when it came off the A68 at Soutra Hill in snow on its way to London. Alexanders Falkirk fitted a 1955 style front when repairing it. This 1953 coach was one of a pair which had a pseudo Seagull coach line to its side appearance. Noticeable by its hybrid style, I saw this refurbished coach once or twice in Edinburgh.
Eastern Belle Motor Coaches (London) 1953 AEC Regal III 6821A Duple C39F
I am a contributor to Focus Transport main site, their blogsite and other sites, I hired a 1950’s AEC half canopy as part of my 60th birthday celebrations to take invited guests for lunch in a 1928 Pullman Carriage at the Spotgate Inn in Staffordshire (www.spotgateinn.co.uk) With no heating the guests survived low temperatures in the morning and the snow on the way home, but everyone had a great time. Very atmospheric. The vehicle is part of the Roger Burdett collection, and stopped in two suburbs in Birmingham as well as Lichfield to collect guests on the way to the restaurant and followed the same route back. The pictures were taken on arrival at the Spotgate Inn and just before departure back to the West Midlands. Most guests took pictures of the vehicle – the first time for nearly all of them that they had travelled on such a vehicle.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
11/03/12 – 09:17
My word, what a truly magnificent vehicle – that well worn word “classic” must surely apply here – and in a livery uncannily like that of Samuel Ledgard. They say that “you learn something new every day” and I believe its the first time I’ve ever seen a thirty foot long Regal or even been aware of such a variant. It must surely be one of the most handsome vehicles of the “good old days.”
Chris Youhill
11/03/12 – 19:35
Very impressive. It might be the camera angle, but it looks a very long vehicle!
Chris Hebbron
11/03/12 – 19:51
As Chris says a true classic and what a fine vehicle. It is however surprising that a half cab design was selected for such a quality heavyweight coach as late as 1953 as underfloor models had been readily available for a couple of years by then. I agree 30ft long half cab coaches were pretty rare. Other examples I can immediately recall were a batch of Guy Arab half cabs with Roe coach bodies bought by Lancashire United for the Tyne-Tees-Mersey service about the same time.
Philip Halstead
12/03/12 – 06:44
Now you DO surprise me, Chris Y. What about the 1953 Doncaster 30′ Roe bodied Regal IIIs? (…..and I thought one of those had been preserved). The bodies are almost identical to the West Riding 30′ Roe bodied PS2s. PS2s and 9.6 Regal IIIs were rarer than PS1s and “7.7” as were 30′ rarer that 27’6″ – but there were still appreciable numbers.
David Oldfield
David Beilby
Crossley produced 54 30-foot long chassis. However, nearly all of the received full-front bodies, with only eight being of the traditional half-cab layout. Coach design was in an experimental phase at this time, as ten for the USAF had raised rear saloons and a further three were half-deckers.
David Beilby
12/03/12 – 16:04
Yes, David – I’d also thought of the Doncaster 30ft Regals. However, in defence of Chris Y, they had a straight-sided profile with deep windows which didn’t emphasise the length. However, this beautiful Eastern Belle example looks like a 27’6 version stretched to 30′. Indeed, I now see that EFE made a model of this coach, but using their 27’6″ mould with six side windows instead of the Eastern Belle’s seven. I wonder if, in 1953, the Duple staff had to delve into the back of the stores to find the patterns and templates for this late example from a different era. A rash question to our knowledgeable readers, but was this the last curved-sided half-cab ever made?
Paul Haywood
12/03/12 – 16:05
Here an example of a Lancashire United Guy Philip alluded to. The Roe body is not dramatically different from the Duple style. They were built in 1950. https://secure.flickr.com/ For some reason the page does not display correctly in IE you will have to scroll down to find the picture all other browsers work fine.
Chris Hebbron
12/03/12 – 17:17
What Ken did not mention but makes it rarer is that it is 7ft 6ins not 8ft. The West Riding PS2s from 1953 (I have one of those as well) are much bigger vehicles and 8ft
Roger (rbctc)
12/03/12 – 19:08
There’s a picture of the West Riding Leyland half cab mentioned above at //www.focustransport.org.uk she’s commonly referred to as Ethel because of her registration plate
Ken Jones
13/03/12 – 06:37
Barton Transport had a Duple A coach body which they lengthened themselves to a 30ft 39 seater as part of their BTS1 re-building programme, I think it was the only only one which retained a half cab body. No doubt they had lots of spare body parts from all their alterations but perhaps it wasn’t as easy as may be thought, I imagine it would have involved altering the body pillars to correspond with the increased wheelbase but the side window pattern on the finished product was exactly the same as on the one above.
Chris Barker
13/03/12 – 06:38
Don’t forget the possibly largest batch (?) of 30 foot half cab coaches, Royal Blue’s 1951 Bristol LL6B/Duple C37F, 24 in number.
Dave Williamson
14/03/12 – 06:54
In my last post, I forgot about the further 14 Bristol LL6B/Duple C37F which Southern/Western National acquired in 1951 for their own fleets.
Dave Williamson
15/03/12 – 09:30
Again though the Royal Blue Ls were 8ft.
Roger (rbctc)
15/03/12 – 12:07
……..and nothing as late as 1953. Unless someone knows different?
Paul Haywood
16/03/12 – 07:23
David O. mentions the three Roe-bodied 30′ Regal III’s for Doncaster. According to the PSV Circle’s chassis list for the type, the previous three chassis numbers to these were three seemingly identical Roe-bodied buses supplied to the Belfast Steamship Co. of Liverpool. I have never otherwise heard anything else about these buses, or ever seen photographs of them. Does anyone have any information about these totally overlooked machines? The list shows around 50 Regals with seating capacities of 37 or over, so which were probably of the longer length – surprisingly AEC did not give them a different chassis code. There were 108 Leyland PS2 30-footers: 12 Roe-bodied buses for West Riding. 6 Roe-bodied coaches for West Riding (with the similar bodies to the LUT Arabs). 71 buses for C.I.E. (with their own bodies) 14 East Lancs-bodied buses for Burnley, Colne and Nelson. 1 Burlingham-bodied coach for Wilkinson’s, Sedgefield. 1 Burlingham-bodied coach for Harding’s, Birkenhead. 1 Heaver-bodied coach for City Coach Co. 2 Observation Coaches for U.T.A. bodied by themselves. The City Coach and U.T.A. examples were six-wheelers with a temporary additional lightweight front axle, to legitimise their 30′ length prior to the relaxation in the length limit. They were designed to be removed when this came into force.
John Stringer
16/03/12 – 08:36
C H Roe (Geoff Lumb) p82 shows a Belfast Battle, sorry, Steamship bus – of 1954. These are quoted as being the same as the 1953 Doncaster examples. I believe that there were earlier 27’6″ examples before and also Regal IVs.
David Oldfield
17/03/12 – 16:31
This Eastern Belle coach (NXL 847) was the company’s second similar vehicle. In 1951, they had taken MLC 343, a photo of which is included in Eric Ogden’s ‘Duple’ book. Were the Royal Blues 8 feet wide? The LL chassis was the 7ft 6in version, the 8ft option being the LWL. Southern/Western National introduced white steering wheels to denote 8 feet wide vehicles; the photos I’ve seen of the Royal Blue LL6B coaches have the traditional black steering wheels. There were more than the 108 30 foot PS2 Tigers listed by John Stringer. In the PSV Circle Leyland PS2 chassis list, as well as those 108, 44 of the PS2/3 are quoted as 30 feet long, with the note that ‘there may be others’. It seems that early production 30 footers were conversions from the shorter models (Doug Jack’s ‘The Leyland Bus’).
Dave Williamson
18/03/12 – 07:55
My Duple L LTA 898 has a white steering wheel and whilst I would not stake my life savings on it I think is 8ft. On the PS2 8ft vehicles most were buses and I think only the West Riding were 1953
Roger (rbctc)
18/03/12 – 09:00
I rather think white steering wheels to remind drivers that the vehicle was 8ft wide was standard Bristol practice.
Roy Burke
19/03/12 – 09:10
West Riding’s last PS2s came in 1953 some of these had Roe coach bodies Burnley continued to buy PS2s until 1955 and these (fitted for OMO) lasted until the early seventies
Chris Hough
19/03/12 – 17:28
Two of the contributors to this thread mentioned the Regal IIIs supplied to Doncaster Corporation.
I’m happy to attach a photo of number 22, taken at it’s home at Sandtoft Transport centre.
Andrew Charles
20/03/12 – 16:01
What great pictures, Andrew, of a superb and beautifully preserved vehicle. 22 is just fabulous, and shows how well Doncaster’s livery could look when clean and fresh, which, at the risk of offending anyone, I have to say it often wasn’t. The use of front-engined vehicles for one-man operation was, I think, quite rare. It must have required some twisting and turning for the driver.
Roy Burke
21/03/12 – 07:28
As Roy rightly says, the use of front engined vehicles for one person operation was comparatively rare, but certainly not rare enough. The degree of contortion necessary for the driver at every stop was totally unacceptable and must have been the cause of spinal and inner organ damage. Much scoffing is aimed these days at “Health & Safety” which can admittedly sometimes be over the top, but in this particular instance it should have been applied with full force to prevent this ludicrous practice. I should juts clarify that I’m referring to front engined vehicles of the traditional layout – a modern exception of course being the wonderful, in my humble view and from experience, Ailsa Volvo double decker – a vehicle whose incredibly skilful design allowed a front engine, adequate passenger flow on the platform, comfortable room for the driver, and 79 seated passengers conveyed reasonably speedily by a 6.7 litre engine. I’ve always had the feeling that the sales figures of the Ailsa were mortally wounded by the unreasonable fear of the layout which the ill fated Guy Wulfrunian left as its legacy.
Chris Youhill
21/03/12 – 07:29
Am I correct in thinking that an operator called Homeland Tours bought a number of 30ft Leyland Comets? I’m sure I’ve seen a picture somewhere, I would imagine they really were unique!
Chris Barker
22/03/12 – 08:07
Re Chris’s comments about the Ailsa, I don’t think anyone would make comparisons with the Wulfrunian because it was well documented that the problems there were caused by Guy overreaching itself with advanced braking and suspension systems. What operators probably were fearful of was the small turbocharged engine, an idea which was virtually unknown in Britain then. In other words, a bus ahead of its time.
Peter Williamson
22/03/12 – 13:35
There were some outstanding bus liveries around and one nomination I would give is to West Bromwich Corporation, witness the preserved Daimler CVG6-30 seen HERE: https://secure.flickr.com Pity that, whenever I caught glimpses of them lurking around in Brum, they were always as tatty as Hell! It didn’t help that B’ham Corp’n generally kept their vehicles impeccable.
Chris Hebbron
22/03/12 – 13:36
Homeland Tours was an operator based in Croydon during the post war years who had a number of Leyland Comets with Strachans C37F bodies. As a schoolboy in the Croydon area in the 1950s, I used to see these coaches about frequently. I believe that these vehicles were actually owned and operated by Wallace Arnold to whom Homeland had “passed” the licences and goodwill. Homeland Tours still exists as a travel agent in Croydon.
Roger Cox
23/03/12 – 06:40
Regarding the Ailsa Peter, the engine theory is an interesting one which I hadn’t thought of. In the event though, any concerns about the performance and longevity of those tiny Volvo engines have proved to be unfounded, and the performance of their immediate successors leaves me full of admiration. For example, the speed at which the Volvo B7TLs ascend Royal Park Road (very steep) on the 56 service in Leeds with around ninety passengers, while confidently changing gear upwards, is nothing short of amazing – those long in the tooth like me recall the 7.7 litre Mark V AEC Regents whistling, wheezing and protesting at little more than walking pace when heavily loaded.
Chris Youhill
23/03/12 – 09:33
Thanks, Chris H for the link to the West Bromwich Daimler. A very smart vehicle indeed. It made me think about other liveries, and I wondered what other correspondents’ favourites might be. East Yorkshire’s indigo and primrose has its fans, and from my own neck of the woods, York Pullman was always both smart and attractive, (and it still exists). Any nominations?
Roy Burke
23/03/12 – 16:43
Sheffields smart cream and blue always smartly turned out was a favourite The many variations in the late lamented Black Prince livery again always smart Pennine Motors unusual orange and black The LCT one man livery was always smart though often dirty Others will no doubt have their own choices. One other to mention is the Leeds blue and cream pre-war livery on both buses and trams examples of which happily survive.
Chris Hough
24/03/12 – 09:16
Just one more from me then, City of Oxford. This photo of an AEC Regent III with Weymann lowbridge body (a pseudo LT RLH) shows of its livery superbly. See HERE: //www.fotolibra.com/
Chris Hebbron
24/03/12 – 12:17
Indeed many of us have our favourite “traditional” liveries, and with good cause, when we have to live with some of today’s ghastly and inappropriate offering, most of which make me despair as to where the Industry is going. I just wish the “marketing” fraternity would stick to promoting baked beans etc. and that operators would cease wasting so much money on garish and incomprehensible horrors which the travelling public are probably unaware of and totally disinterested in. Rant over, but not for long, as I feel so strongly about this issue that I can rarely get it out of my mind. Now then, another favourite livery or two of mine – Southend Corporation’s beautiful light blue and rich cream, especially when they spent their money wisely against the 1960s trend by increasing the number of places on the intermediate destination blinds from three to six – the expression “getting your priorities right” springs to mind. How about the most dignified Accrington Corporation dark navy and red – different and sombre, yes, but most impressive.
Chris Youhill
24/03/12 – 18:12
Yes Chris, Accrington’s was indeed a most dignified and distinctive livery. I once read in a book somewhere that it was first applied after World War I, as a mark of respect to the many Accrington Pals killed in action. Their regimental colours were red and blue with gold lining. It is also said that the mudguards of the buses were painted black at the same time, as a sign of mourning. However, other operators also had buses with black mudguards over the years, so I’m not quite so sure about the latter. A very touching tribute nonetheless though, to such brave men.
Brendan Smith
25/03/12 – 09:11
I agree with Chris Youhill’s hatred of modern corporate colour schemes (I hesitate to grace them with the title “liveries”). My particular dislike is having windows plastered with stupid advertising tosh. WINDOWS ARE FOR LOOKING OUT OF! If they want to cover them over they may as well save on glass and just panel the sides in altogether (as they have the rear of many vehicles).
Stephen Ford
25/03/12 – 09:12
I’m waiting for Chris Y to vote for South Yorkshire Motors, (from West Yorkshire) whose Oxford/Cambridge blue was very handsome & well maintained despite the age of some of the vehicles. As someone said, Doncaster’s Crimson Lake was potentially good, but attacked by filthy roads around collieries until it went a sort of dark maroon. Doncaster’s old livery never had any names- just the coat of arms. The old umbery East Midlands had a mention here- but it was dropped for the ultimate in boring. Perhaps the most horrific “new” livery was South Yorkshire Transport’s (not to be confused) Yuk yellow & red, with some dreadful graphics. What a far cry….
Joe
25/03/12 – 09:13
The Accrington livery up to the late sixties also included black window surrounds on the lower saloon, which I always think set it off. This may be the black that was referred to rather than the wings.
David Beilby
25/03/12 – 12:07
As many will know Joe, I spent my last fourteen years with South Yorkshire Road Transport (and several successors) at Pontefract Depot. The vehicles were indeed well maintained and smart, inside and out, and I can’t imagine many private firms employing a team of four daytime lady cleaners Monday to Friday to keep the interiors of around twenty vehicles in pristine order. These splendid ladies left no stone unturned and could often be seen on their knees washing with difficulty the seat support rails and other areas usually unknown to the average cleaner elsewhere. There honestly were amusing occasions when a vehicle had to be rapidly collected from the depot for an unexpected changeover – I have personally experienced leaping into a cab and setting off promptly for the bus station to hear an anguished cry from up aloft – “Just a minute luv”, and two of the worthy ladies would come downstairs with buckets and mops and alight just in time to avoid being whisked away to Doncaster or Barnsley !! The original South Yorkshire Motors livery of two blues and rich cream with traditional fleetname was indeed a classic one. When the Company was reconstituted (still under family ownership) as South Yorkshire Road Transport Limited the livery gave way to the familiar modern one of two blues and stark white ir-rational (to me) rectangular shapes, and bold white large fleetnames. Rumour has it that the white shape of the lower forward panel was to emphasise the presence of the front wheels which I suppose had some merit – but I have to say that I found the new livery to be a retrograde step and I didn’t particularly like its layout and the stark white.
Chris Youhill
26/03/12 – 07:44
Here Here Chris re. modern liveries! Absolutely awful. You mention the superb Southend pale blue and cream, laid out in traditional fashion. It was enough to inspire Bradford to change in 1942 when they borrowed some Southend trolleys. I think the best traditional liveries were those employed by the Tilling Group, but perhaps my own personal all-time favourite was the deep green with cream stripes of that wonderful AEC fleet, Morecambe and Heysham Corporation, which showed off the lines of classic Park Royal and Weymann bodywork with real flair. Them wer t`days all right
John Whitaker
26/03/12 – 10:34
I recall the attractive M & H livery on one visit there, with typical ‘tramway’ lettering and fleet numbers. The buses had no route numbers/letters.
Chris Hebbron
01/04/12 – 08:43
I had the chance to ride on this excellent coach again today and got a picture of the engine. I do hope it is of interest to you.
Ken Jones
29/04/12 – 16:56
I was at the Irish Transport Heritage Bus & Coach rally at Cultra, Holywood, Co. Down on 28th April and saw it tucked away. A lovely example and a welcome visitor. I didn’t get the best shot but here is a link to my photo on Flickr //www.flickr.com/
Robin Parkes
03/05/12 – 08:48
600 mile round trip to take Eastern Belle to Belfast with 20 passengers-must be one of the longest trips for a half-cab in 2012 and it ran perfectly.
Roger rbc
05/01/13 – 15:40
Whilst (laboriously) digitising my slide collection I came across this view of NXL 847 – then in a two-tone green livery – as it prepared to depart from the HCVC Brighton Rally in 1973.
John Stringer
06/01/13 – 11:19
1973 was the year I graduated from University and NXL 847 “Eastern Belle” belonged to Waltham Forest Council Welfare Services at the time. – Thanks to Roger Burdett – current owner for this information
Ken Jones
16/11/13 – 11:06
Having been born in Bow, East London I remember Eastern Belle Coaches very well. In the fifties our street would book a coach with eastern belle to take us to see the Southend Lights. I also remember their garage being a very crampt premises on the Bow Road. I took my first car there for an MOT in the early sixties and remember seeing two redundant dust covered AECs wallowing in the corner. I am now 70 years old but never forget these lovely well kept vehicles.
B Greaves
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
15/04/16 – 09:19
Re the comment posted by John Stringer (16/03/12) regarding, the two “observation coaches” built on PS2 chassis by the UTA they were eventually rebuilt (along with many other PS2’s) into PD2/10C deckers with UTA 60 seat bodies. Curiously both survive in this format – one is preserved and the other is a former playbus.
I see this old thread has risen again, thanks to a wonderful view from Bill Headley. Thank you for posting! I note the exchanges of thought about the Ailsa. I’m not sure if the claim is still made (if it ever was!) but I seem to remember the Volvo cars were designed for a 22 year life. No wonder their bus engines performed as healthily as CY reports!
Pete Davies
16/04/16 – 09:15
Not true of the B6 engine, Pete. The B6 was a dreadful attempt at a Dart clone, and a complete abomination.
Devon General Omnibus & Touring Co Ltd – Grey Cars 1950 AEC Regal III 9621A Duple C32F
Pictured on the A23 during an HCVC London – Brighton run in the 1970s is LTA 629, an AEC Regal III 9621A (sliding mesh gearbox) with a Duple C32F body that was delivered to the Devon General Grey Cars fleet in 1950. Though the livery it has here is not the maroon and grey it wore as fleet no. TCR 629 of Grey Cars. The rear underside of the bodywork is raised to avoid it fouling the ramps of ferries. This coach has since been repainted into its original guise:- It can be seen here. In the above picture it is seen overtaking M 7287, the 1915 Foden steam wagon no.5218 that rejoices in the name “Gwennie Willan”.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
17/01/16 – 10:53
This coach was withdrawn by Grey Cars (Devon General’s coaching fleet) in 1958, along with its sister vehicles in the batch LTA 623-634. The whole batch was sold to Greenslades Tours of Exeter, a previously independent company that had become a BET associated company in 1953. The livery it is carrying in this photograph is that of Greenslades.
Petras409
17/01/16 – 10:54
The modified rear end was to clear ferry ramps at both Torpoint and Dartmouth. The Greenslades livery shown here is quite authentic, as many Grey Cars coaches were transferred to that company, like Devon General a BET concern, towards the ends of their lives. The batch of 12 coaches of which this is one were all withdrawn after only eight years with Grey Cars and all went to Greenslades.
David Chapman
17/01/16 – 12:57
LTA 629 appeared on the Brighton Rally in 1968 whilst owned by Colin Shears, then was there again in 1973 having just recently been bought by Dave Sayer of the Mersey & Calder Bus Preservation Group, accompanied by two other vehicles from the group – I know because I was there with them ! The combination of 9.6 engine and crash gearbox produced possibly the best ever variation of the AEC Sound in my opinion, and though it later looked mighty fine restored to the Grey Cars livery I always thought that it looked superb in Greenslades livery too. The AEC crash gearbox took a bit of getting used to initially if you had only experienced the slower Leyland PD1. Bristol or Guy as it was a surprisingly quick change, but once mastered it was a joy to drive.
John Stringer
18/01/16 – 10:42
In the 70s did it have the lower ratio diff i.e. lower top speed? I think when it as in the ownership of Colin Cowdrey in recent years I seem to recall him saying 37/38 was top speed which is less than my 2 Regals where 42/43 is a comfortable cruising speed.
Roger Burdett
20/01/16 – 14:24
I certainly seem to recall that this Regal was capable of more then 37/38 mph on the few occasions I drove it. I will ask Dave Sayer next time I see him.
John Stringer
22/01/16 – 06:12
LTA 629 along with Leyland GDM 494 have now both passed to Nick Szkiler t/a The Classic & Sports Car Centre, West Knapton, formally Grundy Mack.
Here is a pair of poor photos taken in Great Yarmouth in August 1958. As a London Transport spotter predominantly, I was excited to note the registration GK 3172 on a cream and green AEC coach under the Bickers title – it had to be an ex-London bus! I guessed it could be an ST, STL or T. Inspecting the dumb-irons was the easy way for those in the know, and there was indeed the brass plate on the right hand iron but the left hand one which would have given me the fleet number had been removed. Later I found that it was formerly T 300 which had been delivered in 1931 and withdrawn in 1938, bought by Arlington Motors, Vauxhall Bridge Road, The driver told me his boss had picked the vehicle up from a scrapyard, with that non-London Transport body already fitted – he thought, perhaps, off a Leyland. A letter to London Transport gave me the stock number and some of these details. How kind companies used to be to little perishers who pestered them with daft enquiries!
Sometimes I gathered redundant discs from such ‘finds’ and nowadays some folk collect them – so below are those from T300, in case any of you chaps are interested.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
Copyright Victor Brumby
24/11/11 – 06:46
Gut instinct. Shape of destination indicators and circular insert. Looks a bit Plaxton to me. Would have been an early one – even off a Leyland. Would also have been rare to see a Plaxton in or from the London area.
David Oldfield
24/11/11 – 06:47
How useful those little brass plates on the dumb-irons could be – I found them indispensable when finding old LT buses as showmen’s vehicles at funfairs! Looking at the indicator area above the cab, the body looks as if it could well be a Duple.
Chris Hebbron
24/11/11 – 06:48
Bearing in mind cheap labour in those far-off days, organisations as big as London Transport might well have employed a special “Clerical Officer, D.E.L.P.” (Daft Enquiries from Little Perishers) to answer such esoteric questions!
Stephen Ford
24/11/11 – 06:49
Most fascinating to notice from the two PSV licences that this fine vehicle had been demoted in April 1955 from “Express” to “Stage” – so often the fate of luxury coaches whose charms had begun to wane, but to the advantage of the service bus passengers who benefitted !!
Chris Youhill
24/11/11 – 07:46
As an addendum, the excellent website, Ian’s Bus Stop, shows that the vehicle was sold to Arlington Motors in August 1938, then bought by Osborne of Tollesbury, who had it re-bodied it by Duple as C32F. It was in service with Bickers in 1954 and withdrawn in March 1959. T300’s body was transferred to T369, which suggests that only the chassis was sold by LPTB.
Chris Hebbron
25/11/11 – 06:46
Well, it was a pleasant surprise to find this operator appearing on the web site as I am sending this note from a computer less than four miles from the Suffolk village of Coddenham. Indeed a work colleague was brought up in Coddenham and knows various members of the Bickers family. She has recalled that in her childhood Bickers vehicles always seemed to be older (i.e. more interesting to us) than those of other operators. Alfred C. Bickers (father of the Geoffrey Charles Bickers shown on the licence) had begun running into Ipswich from Coddenham by 1925. In April 1927 he bought a new 14 seat Ford Model T bus RT 2975 which no doubt became obsolete by the 1930s and was discarded. Many and various buses, (nearly always second hand) were bought until 1988 when that part of the business was divided between Eastern Counties and Ipswich Buses. Imagine everybody’s surprise when about ten years ago there appeared on the Ipswich – Felixstowe Vintage Vehicle Run a Ford Model T RT 2975 bus complete with original log book, entered and restored by David A. Bickers of Coddenham, grandson of the original owner. In the 1960s Dave Bickers was a well known motor cycle scramble rider and later he and his son Paul started to do stunt engineering work for films including a number of James Bond movies, see www.bickers.co.uk Clearly the restoration of a bus would have posed little problem to such a family of engineers. The PSV Circle states that GK 3172 was scrapped after withdrawal by Bickers but then that was what they said about RT 2975!
Nigel Turner
30/11/11 – 15:04
Chris Hebbron alludes to the brass dumb-iron plates to be found on all the period London buses. Above is the plate of the RT which languishes in the Johannesburg Museum of Transport, which I was amused to photograph on 2005.
Victor Brumby
16/08/13 – 12:14
Chris Youhill comments (above) about the apparent demotion of this vehicle from Express duties to Stage. My own memory is becoming a little hazy now, but my recollection is that, when it came to vehicles’ PSV licences, ‘Stage’ was a higher category than ‘Express’, i.e. with a vehicle licensed as a ‘Stage Carriage’ you could do everything you could have done with one licensed as an ‘Express Carriage’ – and more. The requirements for a ‘Stage’ licence were stricter – e.g. a passenger/driver communication system (i.e. bell or buzzer) had to be provided. Most vehicles were licensed as ‘Stage’, irrespective of the sort of work they were likely to be called upon to do. Am I remembering correctly?
David Call
18/06/15 – 10:43
I missed David Call’s comment of a couple of years ago. The classifications ‘Stage’ and ‘Express’ Carriage referred to Road Service Licences, the licences granted to operators by the Traffic Commissioners to run passenger services between specified points to a published timetable via a detailed route stopping at particular points at stated fares. The maximum size of machine for each route was also dictated. The vehicles were all licensed as psvs, and had to pass Certificate of Fitness tests at fixed intervals according to age. Thus coaches could be used legally on bus services and buses on coach services (the latter sometimes to the discomfort of passenger posteriors, no doubt). All this has changed, of course. Buses and coaches, like all vehicles of three years of age or more, now have to pass an annual MoT test, and the number of vehicles that a commercial operator can run is limited by the Operator’s Licence. The actual passenger services/routes are no longer licensed at all outside London. Bus companies today can run what they like when they like, and charge what they like for the (often dubious) privilege, subject to 42 days notice being given to the local Traffic Commissioner for applications for new or changed services.
Roger Cox
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/06/16 – 06:39
This is a late comment but the difference between stage and express was merely that of the minimum fare charged.Express services had a minimum fare of one shilling and “excursions and tours” was merely a special variety of express carriage. I think that vehicles used purely for private hire were licensed as “contract Carriage” but I am not sure about that – it is a long time since I did my Institute of Transport course and by the time I got my CPC (Operators licence) it was all irrelevant anyway.
The FS46 Vega had retained most of the styling of the original FS32 range albeit with slightly revised corner glazing at the front end. In October 1953 Duple did a more thorough re-design and came up with the FS56. The “Big Bedford” radiator cowling disappeared and was replaced by an oval radiator grille which led to it being nicknamed the “Fishmouth” Vega. The FS56/1 was the 8ft wide version and the Mk VI bus option was quietly dropped, to be replaced by a purpose-built bus body manufactured at Kegworth. Apart from the oval grille another distinguishing feature of the original FS56 model was a marginally increased seating capacity of 36/38.
This is the original FS56 Vega with the “fish-mouth” radiator grille. All such vehicles were built during 1954. At the time of this shot Bedford SBG HBW 306 was working for Williams of Wrockwardine Wood in Shropshire (Photographer unknown)
As the nickname “Fishmouth” might suggest, some operators were unimpressed by the new frontal design of the Vega and took their shillings to Scarborough for some far more attractive Plaxton Venturers. Duple rapidly admitted that the oval grille had been a mistake, and after a single year in production the vacuous goldfish look was replaced by a far more pleasing design. Introduced at the 1954 Commercial Motor Show, the new front end featured a butterfly shaped grille surmounted by a “feathered wings” motif. Otherwise it retained the dimensions and seating capacity of the original FS56. The butterfly grille models were given the designations FS56/2 (7ft 6ins) and FS56/3 (8ft).
Shropshire was a good place to find elderly Vega variants! This is Bedford SBG 111 CVX, new in 1955 and carrying an FS56/2 “butterfly grille” body. At the time of the photograph it was in service with Tulip Coaches of Hadley who also owned the Dennis L6 Falcon shown earlier in this feature. (Roy Marshall via Author)
Model numbers from FS56/4 through to FS56/9 were allocated to “lookalikes”; /4 and /5 to Leyland’s new forward control version of the Comet, /6 and/7 to bodies built on Commer Avenger III chassis, and /8-9 to a small number of Albion FT39 Victors. The next “true Vegas” came along in October 1955 and were the first to be a full 30ft long, a move made possible after Bedford extended the wheelbase of the SB chassis. The FS56/10 was the 7ft 6ins version and the FS56/11 the 8 footer, with both having alternative seating plans for either 37 or 41 passengers. These designations were retained for the slightly modified versions introduced at the October 1956 Commercial Motor Show which retained the butterfly grille but incorporated the “feathered wings” into the top edge of the butterfly shape to achieve a much more harmonious result. For the first time in three years Duple’s design for the SB was more attractive than that of Plaxton which had ill-advisedly dropped the classic Venturer and replaced it with the fairly monstrous first version of the Consort range.
And here is the prettiest of them all, in this case an 8ft wide FS56/11 with the improved butterfly grille. Bedford SBG NUJ 313 was new to Whittle of Highley (in southern Shropshire) in 1956 but is seen here running for M&G Motors of Wem in the northern part of the county. (Photographer unknown)
This Commer T85A Avenger III with an FS56/6 lookalike body was delivered in the same year as the Bedford SBG above but retained the original butterfly grille as the floor-line was higher on the Avenger and the separate “feathered wings” motif helped to conceal the deeper front panel area between windscreen and radiator grille. We have not strayed very far from Shropshire as this machine, NUN 450, was new to EG Peters of Llanarmon-yn-Ial. Just across the Welsh border. (Photographer unknown)
Another of the classic “revised butterfly” design, but in this case a higher specification Super Vega mounted on a diesel-powered Bedford SBO. ODL 48 was new to state-owned Southern Vectis in 1957, and ten years later it left the Isle of Wight to join another Tilling group company, United Counties. Its stay there was brief and in 1968 it moved on to Smaller of Barton-on-Humber (Lincolnshire) and ended up in a scrapyard. Hulley’s of Baslow bought it for spares in 1971, but two years later placed it into service as fleet number 9. (John Holmes)
The numbering system was becoming a bit of a shambles by 1956, a single designation covering a multitude of options made clear only by the suffix number. The FS56 series included not only genuine Vegas and “Vega Lookalikes” but also the Britannia/Britannic models designed for underfloor engined chassis such as AEC Reliances and Leyland Tiger Cubs. There was an obvious family resemblance between the Vega and the Britannia (the separate Britannic designation for centre-entrance versions had been dropped after one season), and the two designs had many common components, but the Britannia was surely deserving of its own place in the FS series. Instead the Britannia bodies received design numbers between FS56/21 and FS56/40 indicating chassis type, width, entrance position, and the special demands of the buyer. Things became even more ridiculous in 1957 when the FS56 series jumped again for no apparent reason, designations FS56/57 and FS56/58 being allocated to “Vega Lookalike” bodies fitted to the new Ford 570E Thames Trader chassis. The /57 was the narrower of the two options. Ford were not keen on the butterfly grille and Duple came up with a rather chrome-heavy alternative which occupied the full width (and most of the depth) of the front end panels. The front windscreens were of a new two-piece design made possible by advances in curved glass technology. A relatively small number were built in 1957-58 before the Thames began to flood the market. The final numbers in the FS56 series were the FS56/59 and FS56/60, built on Bedford SB chassis to Vega specification but with extensive use of Perspex roof glazing aimed at the Continental touring market. The new variation was known as the Duple Alpine, but was very rare as most operators were not that keen on boiling their customers alive. Two more designs related to the FS56 Vega family should also be mentioned in brief. Type number FS58 was allocated to a version of the Vega body tailored to suit front-engined heavyweight chassis built in 1946-1950, mostly as half-cab coaches. By 1956 the original bodywork on these vehicles had seen better days and Duple saw a market in making the mechanically sound chassis look as good as new for less than half the cost of a totally new vehicle. AEC Regals, Leyland Tigers, Crossley SD42s, and Daimler CVD6s were among the marques thus rebodied. Presumably each different chassis had a suffix number, but I have been unable to find a record of them. The FS58 was shorter than a real Vega of its time, being to the 28ft 11¾ins length of the original FS56 of 1954 (and built on chassis originally designed for the 27ft 6ins legal limit), but the next number in the sequence, FS59, was given to an even more truncated version of the butterfly grille Vega design. This model was designed for the Bedford C4/C5 range of goods chassis, seating either 25 or 29 depending on the wheelbase of the particular chassis. It was originally known as the New Vista, but this was changed to Super Vista in 1959 when all Vegas became Super Vegas.
FS60 SUPER VEGA
Having perfected the FS56 Vega family Duple decided to take a lesson from Plaxton and replace their best-seller with something much less attractive. Introduced at the Commercial Motor Show in October 1958, the new FS60 range had a much more bulbous look and lacked the subtle lines of the butterfly grille model. The butterfly itself had vanished, replaced by an uninspiring full-width chrome unit originally used on the small batch of FS56 models fitted to Ford chassis in 1957-58. The two-piece curved front windscreen had also first been used on the early Fords, but the rear window arrangement was completely new and not particularly attractive to most observers. The kindest thing you could say was that it let more light in than earlier versions. Meanwhile Plaxton had undertaken several redesigns of the Consort and by the time the Consort IV emerged in late 1959 the ugly duckling had turned into a passable swan. Faced with the obese new Super Vega variant several well-known operators switched their allegiance to the Scarborough firm.
The FS60 Super Vega was several steps away from the elegance of the later FS56 versions. This is HCC 850, a 1960 Bedford SB3 (petrol engined) which was new to Purple Motors of Bethesda. Five years after delivery it was sold on to Williams of Llithfaen who used it on their stage service to Pwllheli as seen here. (Photographer unknown)
The original FS60 Super Vega was the 7ft 6ins version while the 8ft equivalent was the FS60/1. Next came the (unnamed) FS60/2 which was a similar body for the Commer Avenger IV, while design numbers FS60/3 to FS60/6 were Duple Britannias on underfloor engined chassis. The numbers FS60/7 and FS60/8 were the Super Vega lookalikes for Ford 570E chassis. These too were unnamed at this stage despite what you may have read elsewhere! The 1960 Commercial Motor Show brought another partial redesign of the Super Vega, with a three-piece windscreen and a new (more stylish) radiator grille helping to improve its appearance. The design numbers had taken another unexplained leap, with the rehashed Super Vega becoming the FS60/18 (7ft 6ins) and FS60/19 (8ft) while the FS60/20 was the version for the Commer Avenger IV and (at Commer’s suggestion apparently) was given the name Corinthian, the first of the “lookalikes” to aspire to such a status. The numbers from FS60/21 to FS60/24 were allocated to Duple Britannias, and FS60/25 (7ft 6ins) and FS60/26 (8ft) were given to bodies on Ford 570E Thames Traders. These too finally acquired a name, being branded as the Duple Yeoman. The Fords’ radiators were slightly larger than those of Bedford SBs and Commer Avenger IVs, so the Yeoman of 1961-62 retained the original version of the FS60 radiator grille – itself first used on early Thames Traders – while the (Commer based) Corinthian used the same type of grille as the 1961-62 Super Vega.
The final 1961/1962 version of the FS60 was an improvement, but only if seen from the front. This 1962 example on a Bedford SB1 (diesel-powered) chassis, 631 UTD, started its life in Lancashire but by the time of this photograph had passed to Titterington of Blencowe in the Lake District. (Photographer unknown)
In 1961 Duple began to design a new range of coach bodies for introduction in 1962/63, involving much squarer bodywork with straight waist-rails and the quirky “keynote” feature of a backward leaning window pillar above the rear wheel arch on each side. It was generally known as the”Bella” range but more accurately as the FS61 series. The first model to be launched was the 29 seat Bella Vista for the Bedford VAS, followed by the 52 seat Vega Major for the three axle Bedford VAL, and then by the 41 seat Bella Vega for the Bedford SB. I will take a look at the entire FS61 range (which also included the Trooper for the Ford 570E, the Marauder and Mariner for Ford 676E Thames 36 chassis, the Commodore for 32ft underfloor engined designs, the Empress for the Ford R192, and the Bella Venture for the Bedford VAM) in a future article, but my next piece on coach bodywork will remain in the 1950s and cover Plaxton models from 1950 to 1959 under the working title “Venturers, Consorts, and Panoramas”
Neville. What an excellent Two Part Article. A note you may be interested in part 1 is KWX 413 was purchased new to Kildare, Adwick-le-Street from Comberwell Motors dealership in 9-1951, in previous month 8/1951 KWX 412 was also purchased new by Kildare.
Alan Coulson
28/04/17 – 07:17
One of the delights of both this site and sct61 is how something written today can suddenly shed light on something that has been puzzling me for a long, long time. In this case it was a Ford/Duple coach operated in the 1960s by Claribel Coaches of Ardwick, Manchester, which looked at first sight like what I now know as an FS60, but in side view resembled the earlier butterfly grille Vega. Since I’ve never seen another one, or even a photograph, for 50 years I’ve assumed it must have been either a prototype or a dream. Now I know it was an FS56/57 or /58. Thank you very much!
Peter Williamson
28/04/17 – 16:47
Peter W, you’re so right!! You mention CLARIBEL. I remember them from the mid to late fifties and early sixties when they used to visit Morecambe, though I can’t remember what colours they applied or what vehicles they had.
Pete Davies
01/05/17 – 07:15
As far as I recall, Claribel of Ardwick (not to be confused with a Birmingham operator of the same name which seems to have been better known) had a livery of two shades of blue. As well as the Ford they had a Bedford OB, which in most places would be “yeah, right, who didn’t?”, but it’s the only one I can ever recall seeing in Manchester in the 1960s. Returning to the article, it isn’t true that the FS60/25 and /26 Ford Yeoman retained the original FS60 grille. It had its own special version, as shown here at this link.
Peter Williamson
08/05/17 – 07:59
Peter and Pete, if you search OBP for ‘claribel’, you will find some comments about Claribel of Ardwick, including a partial fleet list I compiled a few years ago. I would imagine they also had other coaches purchased second hand. Adding a little further information to the fleet list (the ‘date in’ and ‘date new’ have been transposed):- 2444 ND was new to A Howarth, Gorton; CCB 150 was probably a unique vehicle, being a forward control conversion of a Bedford OB carrying a Trans-United full front body. New to Ribblesdale, Blackburn, a colour photograph of this coach whilst with Claribel appeared in Classic Bus 117 (Feb/March 2012), nicely illustrating the shades of blue used by Claribel; JA 2459 was new to W Howe, Stockport and passed to North Western with that operator’s business in 1935.
David Williamson
13/06/17 – 09:12
Something which adds weight to Neville’s belief that the Duple Continental was not designed at Blackpool is that the prototype – which eventually became 6201ML – was built at Loughborough under Willowbrook order no. 61837. Intriguingly, order no. 61838 was cancelled and 61839 was an order of parts for Burlingham!
Peter Williamson
13/04/22 – 06:24
I’m a Matchbox collector and I’m looking for the colours of Bedford type “Commer T85A Avenger III with a FS56/6 lookalike body” (NUN 450 four pictures above, it was new to E G Peters of Llanarmon-yn-Ial). I would like to know if anyone can provide me with the bus colours. There are lots of 1955 Bedford bus photos on the Internet but this one is the most similar to Matchbox no21 Bedford Duple Luxury Coach.
The work of the PSV Circle in maintaining fleet records for operators throughout the UK (and beyond) has been little less than magnificent, and most authors (myself included) owe the organisation a tremendous debt. However, being English, that doesn’t prevent me from having one small gripe amid the general climate of praise. Many of the organisation’s “roving reporters” had a tendency to provide all available information about the chassis of a vehicle but be rather less specific on details of the bodywork. I know that several of the organisation’s long term leading lights acknowledge this regrettable oversight and wish that those out in the field in the pioneering days had been more curious about bodywork styles. To give an example, a 1950 Leyland PS1 Tiger with a “Plaxton FC33F” body could be either a Plaxton Envoy or a Plaxton Crusader, very different beasts in terms of appearance and styling. Similarly, a 1952 Leyland PSU1/15 Royal Tiger described as carrying a “Windover C37C” body could be a Windover Kingsway (with rakish if controversial styling) or a Windover Queensway (which looked like an over-sized milk float). Many enthusiasts and writers from a later age are similarly imprecise in their description of bodywork. My personal bugbear is the use of the term “Duple Vega” or “Duple Super Vega” to describe bodywork built on chassis other than the Bedford SB. Vauxhall Motors had an agreement with Duple to use “V” (for Vauxhall) as the initial letter for designs intended for Bedford chassis only. Thus the Vista (for Bedford O range vehicles), Vega/Super Vega (for the SB family) and later the New Vista/Super Vista (on Bedford C4/C5), Bella Vista (on the VAS), Vega Major (on the VAL14), Bella Vega (on the SB from 1963) and Bella Venture (on the VAM for 1966 only). In 1967 the agreement seems to have ended as Duple went on to make the Viceroy and Viscount models on Ford chassis as well as Bedford. In my own writing I tend to describe Vega style bodies on chassis other than Bedford as “Vega Lookalikes” in order to maintain a narrative flow, but each lookalike has its own distinctive Duple model number and these are listed in this article alongside the genuine Bedford Vegas which they resembled. From 1946 onwards Duple used a series of “FS” numbers for its bodywork designs. The “FS” stood for “Full Size”, although this appellation referred to the scale of the draughtsman’s drawings rather than the physical size of the actual coach or bus (a point proven by the allocation of FS50 to the diminutive Sportsman design built for the Bedford OLAZ goods chassis). The series began with the FS1 model for half-cab coaches, more popularly known by its marketing department name of “A type”. Later and longer (and/or wider) “A types” had their own individual FS numbers as did those produced in bulk for specific customers such as the Southern/Western National fleets. By late 1949 the FS series had advanced to FS32 which was the designation given to a 33 seat metal-framed body for the new Bedford SB chassis.
FS32 VEGA
The original Duple Vega had been intended to meet the (then) maximum legal dimensions of 27ft 6ins in length by 7ft 6ins in width, but before the new type could go into production the regulations were changed to allow a length of 30 feet. Another change meant that vehicles up to 8 feet in width could be used on all suitable roads rather than operators having to seek permission to use such vehicles on the mileage of each individual Road Service Licence. Duple was too far into the production process to take full advantage of the liberalised dimensions, but added a token inch to the Vega’s length.
This is the original FS32 Vega body of metal-framed construction. KWX 413 was new in 1951, one of a pair bought from Duple by the Comberhill Motors dealership in Wakefield. It later ran for Wigmore (Excelsior) of Dinnington before moving to Price of Wrockwardine Wood (Shropshire) in 1963. Rather than change the eyebrow blind Price started to use the Excelsior name himself! The vehicle went from Price to Canham of Whittlesey but returned to Shropshire at the end of its life with Williamson of Shrewsbury. Sister vehicle KWX 412 ended up in the Shetland Islands and is currently preserved. (Photographer unknown)
The model number FS32 (without a suffix) indicated a standard Bedford SB/Duple Vega, measuring 27ft 7ins by 7ft 6ins. The FS32/1 had the same body shell but with more basic seating and interior trim and was marketed as the Duple Mk VI service bus body. Few operators were tempted by it as the full coach version was only 7% more expensive, had the same number of seats, and could be used on a wider variety of work. The FS32/2 was the 8ft wide version of the Mk VI, while the designation FS32/3 referred to an 8ft wide Vega coach. At this point the first “Lookalikes” enter the picture. Designations FS32/4 through to FS32/7 were allocated to a similar sequence of options for bodywork on Dennis Falcon chassis. Only four were built, but the few that did go into service were an inch shorter than the corresponding Vega for reasons which remain obscure. The Dennis examples were unnamed, although some internal documents described them as “Duple Falcons” to differentiate them from their Bedford kin.
FS42 VEGA
This model, introduced during 1951, was externally identical to the FS32. The difference lay in the mode of construction. While the FS32 had a completely metal frame the FS42 reverted to more traditional composite (wood/metal) construction, a decision forced upon Duple by a mixture of industrial action and a shortage of skilled labour in the area around its Hendon premises. Suffix numbers remained identical to those of the FS32 range although only two FS42/5s were ever built on Dennis L6 Falcon chassis, taking the grand total to six.
The strikes at Duple’s Hendon factory during 1951 threatened the future of the company at the hour of its greatest triumph and in order to apply pressure on the unions involved several small batches of Vega bodies were assembled by Brush at their Loughborough premises. This FS42 (MOD 688) was originally delivered to a Devonshire operator but later migrated northwards, first to Midway of Crymmych in South Wales, and then to Williamson of Shrewsbury as seen in this shot. The Brush examples were made from authentic Duple components and were visually indistinguishable from the real thing. (Photographer unknown)
The next chassis type to receive a “Vega Lookalike” body design was the Tilling-Stevens L4MA8 Express II. Designed to compete with the Bedford SB/Commer Avenger ranges, the Express II was suitable for 30ft long bodywork and Duple’s FS44 design (which was metal framed like the FS32 Vega) took advantage of its slightly longer wheelbase to offer 37 seat coach and 39 seat bus versions. The latter used the same body-shell as the coach and (unlike its Mk VI equivalent on Bedford chassis) actually outsold the coach. As the figures were four and three respectively this was not quite as impressive as it might sound! They were rare enough in either version to make an enthusiast’s day.
Tilling-Stevens L4MA8 Express II UNO 880 was new to Rainham Luxury Coaches in Essex in June 1952 and was an FS44 with 37 coach seats and soft trim. Rainham got rid of it rather quickly and it had two more owners before arriving with Truman of Shirebrook (Derbyshire) when still less than two years old. (RHG Simpson)
Two months after UNO 880 came into the world this L4MA8 with the 39 seat bus version of the lookalike body (FS44/1) was delivered to Morrison of Tenby (South Wales). ODE 777’s later owners included Gillard of Normanton (West Riding), Martin of Caerphilly (South Wales), and then three further operators in the West Riding of Yorkshire; Mosley of Barugh Green, Laycock of Barnoldswick (as seen in this shot), and Hillcrest of Settle. (Photographer unknown)
Dennis L6 Falcon NVF 943 was new to Culling of Claxton (Norfolk) in February 1953 and carries an FS42/5 “Vega Lookalike” body. It later passed to Lowe of Hadley (Shropshire) who traded as Tulip Coaches. (Roy Marshall via Author)
FS46 VEGA/SUPER VEGA
Hot on the heels of the FS44 for Tilling-Stevens chassis, Duple introduced a longer genuine Vega for the Bedford SB. The wheelbase of the SB remained the same, but a longer rear overhang enabled the FS46 model to carry 35/37 passengers in its 28ft 11¾ins length. The FS46 was a 7ft 6ins wide coach while FS46/1 indicated the 8ft wide model. The first deliveries took place during late 1952, and versions with a superior level of interior trim were available and marketed as the Super Vega. There were also Mk VI bus versions of the FS46 which could accommodate a maximum of 37 passengers. I’ve only ever noticed two of these but there may have been more. The FS46 was of composite construction as was the FS47 “lookalike” for Tilling-Stevens chassis which replaced the metal-framed FS44. King George VI died in February 1952 and after a short period of mourning the popular press began to enthuse about the “New Elizabethan Age”. In the spirit of this sentiment Duple produced an extremely luxurious version of the longer Vega body and referred to it as an Elizabethan. The single vehicle produced featured a toilet, a galley, wheel spats over the rear wheel arches, and a rather inelegant T-shaped motif in chrome which was super-imposed over the existing “Big Bedford” radiator cowling. A few externally similar vehicles (but without the toilet and galley) were produced during 1953 under the name of Coronation Vega, while the Elizabethan name would be re-used for a far more successful model on underfloor-engined chassis in 1954.
“of the Dennis Falcons were VPA 261/2 which entered service, new, with The Yellow Bus Co of Stoughton, Guildford in 1954. VPA 261 worked YBS’s last service at 10:35 pm on Sunday 15th June 1958. They can both be seen on SCT61 on the day before closure. http://www.sct61.org.uk/yb261http://www.sct61.org.uk/yb262 This info is from Happy Family by N Hamshere and J Sutton
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1968 Bristol RELH6G Duple Commander III C48F
This photo taken in the early seventies at Bournemouth Square bus station shows Hants & Dorset No 918 one of a batch of five similar coaches delivered in June 1968 No’s 916-920 registrations MRU 124-128F these being Bristol RELH6Gs fitted with Duple Commander III bodies those on 916/917 being C40F whilst 918-920 were C48F, the Bristol/Duple combination was somewhat unusual. The RE was a vehicle I was undecided about but as my recent posting on the East Kent coaches shows I am a fan of the Duple Commander bodies especially the Mk III and Mk IV of which this is an excellent example in it’s restrained but elegant livery, note the full set of top sliding windows and the quarter lights a classic of it’s day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
13/03/14 – 07:48
Nice, Dave! Looks a lot better than the later livery of poppy and white . . .
Pete Davies
13/03/14 – 07:49
After the ZF Reliance, the RELH was easily the best coach of the ’60s and early ’70s. The ECW body was also superb but these Duple coaches came as welcome relief to the almost unrelieved Lowestoft fare. Only in the early ’70s did Plaxton get a look in – for about two years they provided NBC with only RELH coaches.
David Oldfield
13/03/14 – 17:02
To my eye, the Duple bodies of this period are marred by the truly dreadful Detroit ‘inspired’ front end treatment. One supposes that the perpetrator believed this to be in line with the public tastes of the time. Not in my case!
Roger Cox
14/03/14 – 05:45
Question for you Duple experts – is this a Commander III or IV? Looks like a IV to me comparing with the ones at PMT (3 x G and 2 x H Reg on AEC 691 chassis). The low mounted headlamps look like the IV or are these because of the front mounted Bristol RE radiator? The III version (to my mind) had a horrible front grille.
Ian Wild
14/03/14 – 16:27
Problem is, Ian. People don’t seem to agree. This is an earlier Commander – at a time when Viceroys had the earlier grille. I think the IV “came along” when the Viceroy also got this grille – about a year later. The IV’s lower dash and light units, was slightly different with lights in a perspex fairing and there was a Viceroyesque ribbed metal strip all along the side at between wheel arches level. This was the last hurrah for the Commander as the Commander V emerged as a Viceroy – the only Viceroy variant on heavy chassis. By this time, I think only AECs and Leylands carried the Viceroy.
David Oldfield
14/03/14 – 16:27
Hello Ian This is definitely a Commander III. The ‘horrible’ front grill was on the Commander II, and the early Viceroy, which also had those bulging twin headlights. The only awkward thing about the Mk III for me is the kink in the lower body line, just behind the front wheels. The Commander IV was the stylish design by Carl Olsen that also appeared on the later Viceroy. The headlights were recessed behind a glass panel and lined up with a ribbed aluminium band which continued unbroken along the lower body side. I don’t think the quarter lights and sliding windows were so common on these later marks.
Mike Morton
14/03/14 – 17:45
The awkward kink in the lower body line is in fact the easy way to distinguish the Mark III from the Mark IV plus the ribbed aluminium band mentioned by Mike which was matched by a similar band above the window line. Overall the changes were small but a hugely significant improvement to the design.
Southern Vectis Omnibus Company 1968 Bristol RESH6G Duple Northern C45F
KDL 885F is a Bristol RESH6G with Duple Northern C45F body. Fleet number 301 in the Southern Vectis fleet, she is seen at the King Alfred Running Day in Winchester on 1 January 2010. Please note that the 2015 event has moved away from New Year’s Day and will be held on Sunday evening 3rd May and Bank holiday Monday 4th May instead – and in the hope of better weather!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
23/02/15 – 07:50
Very clean, crisp lines and a sympathetic application of livery. Altogether a pleasing coach – and an unusual body choice for a Tilling company, although Southern Vectis always seemed to display a certain disregard for centralised purchasing policy. Perhaps it’s to do with being an off shore island!
Petras409
23/02/15 – 08:50
Thank you, Petras. Sadly, the Isle of Wight isn’t far enough “off shore” to qualify as a tax haven, although I think my neighbour’s children have the right idea. They went to Cowes a couple of years ago and, when they were in the queue for coming back to Southampton, the elder one said to his brother “We’re waiting for the ferry back to England.”
Pete Davies
23/02/15 – 14:34
In the mid-1970’s, I managed the telephone billing section of Portsmouth Telephone Area, based in Southsea, which covered the Isle of Wight. On one occasion, I dealt with an irate customer living on the IoW, who said she wasn’t satisfied with my reply on the telephone and was ‘coming over from the mainland’ to see me in person. I think that local authority re-org in 1973, which took the IoW out of Hampshire and gave it its own council, gave them a sense of inflated importance!
Chris Hebbron
23/02/15 – 14:34
There were nine coaches built with this body/chassis combination, four for Hants and Dorset, four for Eastern National and this one. The only other two RESH chassis had ECW bus bodies fitted out for DP, delivered to Midland General. There were also a few RELH with Duple Commander bodies, with Hants and Dorset and Eastern National again amongst the operators.
Gary T
23/02/15 – 15:50
I’ve found a photo of one of the Hants and Dorset quartet and although only a few months older it is an earlier version of the Commander and has unusual upper windows. www.flickr.com/photos/ The Eastern National examples were similar to the Southern Vectis one.
Gary T
24/02/15 – 06:17
Sorry, Chris, but the Isle of Wight was never part of Hampshire, but people got this idea because at one time education, police, fire and ambulance services were shared. At one time, the island even had a governor, but now it has a lord lieutenant just like any other county. Check on the island websites if you want to know more.
David Wragg
25/02/15 – 06:07
When I used to work in Hampshire, I had a good relationship with my opposite number, who worked in Newport IoW. I always smiled, when he referred to us as his colleagues on the North Island.
Petras409
27/02/15 – 07:05
Wasn’t this coach 6HLW-engined at first, and a 39-seater? I believe that after a “poor-showing” on an extended tour it was re-engined with a 6HLX, either the following year, or pretty soon after. Was it up-seated at the same time?
Philip Rushworth
27/02/15 – 09:13
Thx for correcting my misapprehension, David. I recall its DL vehicle registration mark and wondered if it was subsumed into Hampshire’s in 1973. Maybe not, then. Loved the ‘North Island’ remark, Petras409. I’ve just remembered that I looked at a wall map of Southampton/Portsmouth/IoW area when aboard the Cherbourg-Southampton ferry in its last season. The map showed ‘White Isle’ in the centre. It was a brave, but misguided attempt at using ‘possession’, but the spelling????
Chris Hebbron
27/02/15 – 13:28
The Isle of Wight was part of Hampshire until 1890. Censuses that come up in family history searches say, for example “Carisbrooke, Hampshire” and “Whippingham, Hampshire.” One of my farmer cousins at the western point of the Island admits that visiting overners are good for the economy, but reckons that there ought to be a drawbridge to keep them where they belong once they’ve gone back to the mainland. Some time ago I asked whether anyone else could recall a single-decker with an oval back window that ran from Freshwater to Alum Bay, and I think I’ve found the answer: a Reo (not part of the Southern Vectis fleet) which ran right up till 1949. Another oval-windowed single-decker pictured on p 57 of Richard Newman’s “Southern Vectis–the first 60 years” was a Guy Chaser, DL 5277, but that was sold in 1935. It’s gone midday: time for my nammut.
Ian T
27/02/15 – 15:49
Apparently the Wight name of the island has nothing to do with colour, but it apparently means a separate place or a separated place. Rather apt, really. How they loved their “DL” registration code, managing to keep it during the 1974 changes and after. They lost it in the major 2001 change, but still have a unique identifier as “HW”. Sorry, a bit off piste as a comment, but the above contributions reminded me of this.
Michael Hampton
27/02/15 – 16:51
Michael, the ‘Oxford Names Companion’ states “Wight, Isle of (the county). Vectis c.150, Wit c.1086 (Domesday Book). A Celtic name possibly meaning ‘place of the division’, referring to its situation between the two arms of the Solent”. This ties in nicely with your “separated place” explanation. I like your comment “How they loved their “DL” registration code”, but as a young enthusiast I did too, even though I lived ‘up North’. Those lovely IoW registrations, the ‘Cuddles’, ‘Diddles’, ‘Fiddles’, Middles, ‘Piddles’, ‘Tiddles’ and Widdles’ – wonderful one and all.
Brendan Smith
28/02/15 – 05:54
I see that Brendan and I seem to share Benny Hill’s “lavatorial” sense of humour!
Pete Davies
28/02/15 – 05:55
On a recent holiday coach tour from East Yorkshire we had a very able driver who lived on the IoW on the round the island tour he never stopped talking on driving off the ferry at Southampton he welcomed us back to the North Island.
Ken Wragg
28/02/15 – 05:57
Philip, this coach was indeed originally fitted with the smaller Gardner 6HLW engine when new. As you comment, it was soon re-engined with the larger 6HLX unit. Apparently this followed an embarrassing incident whereby passengers on a coach tour had to disembark, in order for 301 to reach the top of a hill. As a young enthusiast, I was very fortunate in seeing this beautiful coach in Harrogate when quite new, and still have a not very good black and white photograph of it, parked on Esplanade, at the bottom of Cold Bath Road. Whether it had the more powerful 6HLX engine by then I do not know, but given the steepness of some of the hills around the area, I sincerely hope that it had!
Brendan Smith
28/02/15 – 09:48
Is that tale of the 6HLW engine being defeated by a hill verifiable? 6LW engines powered 30ft long double deckers in pretty hilly territory all over the land without trouble. I can accept that the performance of the RE with the 112 bhp 6HLW might not have been sparkling, and some gradients may have required bottom gear, but I remain a trifle suspicious of the story.
Roger Cox
28/02/15 – 12:05
Yes I know what you mean Roger, but the story is told in Duncan Roberts’ ‘Bristol RE – 40 years of service’ book, which is a well-researched publication. West Yorkshire’s Bristol MW coaches (with 6HLW engines) seemed to manage trips around the Dales without too much drama, but then they had ECW aluminium-framed bodywork. I have a suspicion that Duple like Plaxton at the time, were still using composite bodies, which were quite a bit heavier. It is interesting to note that West Yorkshire’s ECW-bodied RELH6G coaches performed well on the Yorkshire-London services, with fully rated (150bhp) Gardner 6HLX engines. However, when WY’s first Plaxton-bodied RELH6G coaches arrived, within a short space of time they were deemed to be ‘sluggish’, and were re-engined with Leyland O.680 units rated at 168bhp, to improve performance. Maybe the same fate had befallen 301 – that of heavier coachwork?
Brendan Smith
01/03/15 – 06:56
Brendan, that is quite correct about the Duple bodies being composite steel/wood construction, and therefore relatively heavy. The caption to the photo in Duncan Roberts’ book, in which he related the proverbial story about the passengers having to get out and walk up an hill in Scotland, also mentions the construction of the Duple bodies. As I understand it, Duple didn’t adopt all metal frames until the advent of the Dominant. In practice, even the ECW-bodied RESLs with 6HLW engines were considered to be sluggish. Southern Vectis had a number of those, and they apparently gained a reputation for causing people to miss ferries!
Nigel Frampton
02/03/15 – 07:30
Thanks for the information on Duple bodies Nigel, and also that on Southern Vectis’ sluggish RESL6Gs. I’ve since reflected on Roger’s quite justifiable suspicion relating to the tale, and the comments on 301 in Duncan Roberts’ book. It is quite possible that the coach did struggle on the hill, and the driver did what he thought best under the circumstances. Conversely, the coach did actually manage the climb fully laden with passengers and their luggage, albeit very slowly in first gear, with the driver later commenting on its performance to colleagues on his return. No doubt it would not have taken long for the tale to “develop” as a consequence. Hmmm! We need Miss Marple on the case.
Brendan Smith
02/03/15 – 17:50
In the postwar years up to the end of the 1950s, the eight legger lorries of Atkinson, ERF, Foden and Guy, and the classic Scammell artics were all powered by the 112 bhp Gardner 6LW. Torque is the prime factor in a commercial vehicle engine, which is where the Gardner range excelled. It is worth remembering that the vaunted 125 bhp engines of AEC and Leyland developed around 118 bhp at the 1700 rpm governed speed of the 6LW, an advantage of just 6 bhp. As Ian T says in his comment on John Stringer’s post of the United Services Dennis Loline I on this site, “112 ghp (Gardner horsepower) was worth 125 of anyone else’s”. I think that the story of the 6HLW powered RE coach being totally flummoxed by a hill, like much folklore, is probably apocryphal. Turning to the matter of Duple bodywork, I personally felt that, after the neat styling of the 1950s, the Duple designs of the 1960s – the Vegas, Vistas, Viceroys et al – were uninspired in the extreme, except in respect of frontal treatment which was garishly appalling, reminiscent of the worst aesthetic abominations emanating from the car factories of Detroit. The mass of frontal metalwork alone must have added considerably to the unladen weight. Duple only partially redeemed itself with the Plaxton clones of the 1970s; the true Plaxtons still looked better. Donning my hard hat, I now await the impending onslaught from Duple aficionados.
Roger Cox
16/03/15 – 06:46
Roger, were you still in Halifax at the time the M62 was being constructed over Rishworth Moor/Moss Moor? For those not familiar with the area, between J23 and J22 the motorway passes under the B6114 in a deep cutting (the spoil from which was used to crate the embankment of Scammonden Reservoir, across which the motorway runs in a westbound direction immediately prior to the cutting). Creation of the cutting severed the B6114 and so, prior to the construction of the current over-bridge, a temporary road descending down the cutting, across the bed of the motorway, and up the other side was created (travelling westbound the tracks of the temporary road can still be seen clearly). The gradient of the temporary road was 1:5. Stay with me. In July 1968 Huddersfield JOC introduced its first two Countryside Tours: Tour B was designed to show the construction of the M62/Scammonden Reservoir/the B6114 over-bridge, and entailed buses climbing the temporary road. According to Cardno and Harling’s “Huddersfield – The Corporation Motor Bus Story”, on the first trip “Five of the seven fully-loaded single deckers failed to negotiate ‘the big dipper’ . . . the problem was caused by the flagman at the bottom of the incline whose job it was to control the traffic to ensure that heavy motorway machinery could cross the road unimpeded. he stopped the buses too close to the bottom of the incline . . .”. I remember reading, many years ago, in Julian Osborne’s “The Southdown Queen Marys”, that the pneumocyclic Queen Marys could fail to start on some of Brighton’s steeper hills, and were soon transferred away to flatter territory. Now my question is this: would the fact that the RESL had a semi-automatic gearbox have affected hill-climbing ability in comparison with Rogers 6LW-engined double-deckers? I’m assuming here that Roger’s 6LW-powered double-deckers were manual, and that the Huddersfield single-deckers concerned were (semi-automatic) Swifts/RUs/Fleetlines.
Philip Rushworth
18/03/15 – 07:09
Philip, you have raised a significant point about the hill climbing capabilities inherent in different transmission types. A friction clutch allows the driver to speed the engine a bit when pulling away on a gradient, whereas a fluid flywheel/epicyclic gearbox coupling limits the ability of the engine to rev beyond a certain level. As you say, the Southdown Leyland PD3/5s with Pneumocyclic gearboxes (dare we now call any of these full fronted Southdown PD3s “Queen Marys”?) became notorious for experiencing difficulty in pulling away from rest on steep gradients. They were relegated to flatter services and Southdown reverted to the manual transmission PD3/4 for later deliveries. However, if a fluid drive bus could get a run at a hill, allowing the engine to reach a reasonable speed before attacking the gradient, then it would go up satisfactorily. During the days of the lowest ebb of the British Leyland saga, when spare parts and new buses acquired the rarity value of hens teeth, London Country got hold of some of the ex Southdown PD3/5 machines and used them on the 409 route between Croydon and East Grinstead/Forest Row. This had some stiff gradients around the Caterham Valley, particularly Church Hill in Caterham, which has a gradient of 16%, about 1 in 6, but the approach from the bottom allowed a measure of speed to be gained before the steep ascent. These PD3/5s coped without trouble. The O600 did seem to deliver poorer torque at the bottom end of the rev range than the directly comparable AEC 9.6 litre A204/A218 and AV590 engines. The London Transport RTL was distinctly inferior on hills to the directly comparable RT. Attempts were made in 1952 and again in 1959 to allocate RTLs to the Country Bus & Coach department, but the insipid gradient performance of these machines soon led to their replacement by RTs. The Gardner 6LW was the supreme engine for low speed torque until the arrival of the 6LX, and the tale of the RE failing to tackle a hill, if true, must be put down to badly chosen gearing/rear axle ratios. In Halifax, the heavy (over 8 tons unladen) Roe bodied Daimlers of 1954 had their 6LW engines replaced by Leyland O600s, but the story is rather more complicated than one of “inadequate Gardner power”. At that time, as an economy measure, Halifax indulged in the practice of adding one part Coalene to two parts derv to propel its bus fleet. The 112 bhp K type Gardner delivered 10 bhp more at 1700 rpm than its predecessor, but it was very particular about fuel quality, and Coalene was never part of its designed diet. To add to the problem, this batch of Daimlers had 5.4:1 rear axles, rather high for the local Alpine operating territory. HPTD’s Leyland besotted new GM, Richard Le Fevre, replaced the Gardners with Leyland engines, and, under the new Asst. Engineer, a certain G.G. Hilditch, the back axles were changed to 6.2:1. The Orion bodied Daimlers kept their Patricroft power plants throughout their lives, as did the later and lighter, very fine, Roe bodied batch of 1956 (my favourite Halifax buses). The problem had not lain with the engines. Mercifully, the dubious indulgence of adding Coalene to the fuel died out in the early 1960s. I’ve driven 6LW powered Daimlers up the Halifax hills without difficulty, so the RE problem certainly lay beyond the engine, though I accept that such a coach would have been underpowered. Modern automatic bus transmissions employ a series of torque converters enabling the engine to rev freely in the starting ratio.
Roger Cox
19/03/15 – 07:14
Coalene was a product of the Coalite company, a smelly plant I recall passing near Chesterfield whenever we visited this fine town to see friends. I have a feeling that Sheffield Corporation also used it in their buses for a while. On the whole, it was only sold ‘locally’. For cars, I always fuelled up my car in Chesterfield with ICI petrol, which I never saw elsewhere, but regretted this as it was much cheaper that other brands. I assume it was a by-product of their chemical activities.
Chris Hebbron
20/03/15 – 07:24
Chris H, quite correct, the Coalite plant was at Wingerworth near Chesterfield. It covered a vast area and closed down many years ago but work still goes on there to this day, detoxifying the land.
Chris Barker
17/01/21 – 07:21
Fascinating reading and I have just read the notes on the switchback diversionary route of the B6114 between Ringstone & Dean Head. The gradient was a true 1 in 5 (20% in the new mode) and the Halifax Leopards (231-238 batch etc) needed 1st gear on both sides. This was a thrilling ride to a teenage bus enthusiast in the 1968-1971 period. Even more exciting was in icy conditions – but the bus always made it – what a contrast to today’s buses! On a Sunday afternoon, the 59 from Elland to Ripponden diverted in each direction vis Dean Head and displayed the number 58. The only regular passengers (besides me!) were 3 elderly ladies who attended the afternoon service at Dean Head Church. Very happy days – any other ageing bus enthusiasts remember travelling on this service?
Eric Sykes
18/01/21 – 05:48
This vehicle has just undergone an internal make over at IoW Museum including new floor covering and newly re-moquetted seats.
Roger Burdett
26/04/22 – 05:54
Very interesting to read of Coalene use in the 1960’s. I think it may have solved a mystery that’s puzzled me for years. As a young lad visiting relatives in Sheffield I’d always enjoy riding the buses – especially the musical AEC’s on the 75 route as they powered up to Meadowhead top. Besides thinking Sheffield blue and cream was ‘the’ best livery, I was always intrigued why Sheffield buses had a certain smell to them? It was suggested it could emanate from the furnaces of the steelworks and it somehow ‘stuck’ to the passing buses. To be honest I think very few people I spoke with at the time had ever actually noticed! I still remember the smell – which I found not unpleasant…..thanks to reading these posts I suspect Coalene sounds like the culprit!
Robert Wainman
01/05/22 – 07:34
I remember seeing this coach parked in Ventnor bus station on an island visit in around 1991; it was notably vintage even then but in showroom condition. Regarding steep hill performance, in my youth I was a daily rider on Bristol City route 3, up the steep Red Lion Hill into Knowle. Always a KSW or an older K, some Gardner 6LW, some Bristol AVW. Dependent on load, and the driver’s skill in engaging non-synchromesh bottom gear when down to walking pace, it would often fail to make it, come to a stand, and then make a spectacular hill start with much vibration and noise. Now I think of it the prospect of making a hash of it and running backwards doesn’t really bear thinking about.
