Tag: East Lancs

Stockport Corporation – Leyland Titan – KJA 871F – 71/5871


Copyright Ken Jones

Stockport Corporation
1968
Leyland Titan PD3/14
East Lancs H38/32R

KJA 871F is a Leyland Titan PD3/14 with East Lancs H38/32R body, new to Stockport Corporation as their no. 71 in February 1968. It is preserved at The Manchester Museum of Transport in Boyle Street, Cheetham Hill. Greater Manchester. The museum is next to an operational bus garage.
It is photographed on 24/7/10 returning to the museum on a shuttle service from Heaton Park, during a running day linking the museum and the tram system at Heaton Park. It is preserved in SELNEC livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

26/03/13 – 16:17

Stockport’s second attempt at something “new fangled”!!
After years of almost dedicated conservatism Stockport dipped their toe into the second half of the twentieth century with this, the first of their first batch of 30 foot long double deckers. Apart from the length, nothing else changed. Rear open platform, East Lancs bodies with wind down windows and draught/drip strips.
Still a magnificent vehicle and one of the few body styles to really look good in SELNEC orange.
As a matter of interest, Stockport’s first attempt at modernity was the inclusion of translucent roof centres from 1964 onwards.

Phil Blinkhorn

26/03/13 – 17:17

…..but they did try tin fronts on the 1958 Crossley bodies – and finally went mad and had a batch of forward entrance PD3s…..

David Oldfield

27/03/13 – 06:55

The livery is an abomination compared with that which it bore before the advent of SELNEC and the blinds are totally unsuited to the apertures but as an example of the way that presentational standards dropped during the ’70’s it is perfect.
Actually, Stockport’s first attempt at modernity was the trolleybuses of 1913 but perhaps that experience persuaded the Transport Dept to draw in it’s horns thereafter though they did order several TD4c’s as tramway replacements …. adventurous by their standards!
Truth is that conservatism paid for Stockport. They got a standardized fleet of reliable vehicles and ran a profitable organization even though most of their vehicles were two man operated and they had the advantage of lower dwell times than omo fleets. Mind you, I should have hated to have to drive a PD3 for a living!

Orla Nutting

27/03/13 – 06:56

The SELNEC orange and white has had a lot of bad press amongst enthusiasts. I think this was largely because it replaced a lot of cherished and varied municipal liveries in the area. In itself I thought it was not unattractive and in some instances was an improvement on the previous municipal scheme. I quote as an example Rochdale’s dreadfully bland all over cream with a bit of blue which was adopted for spray painting in the early 1960’s. The majestic Weymann bodied Regent V’s looked much better to me in SELNEC livery. It was really designed for rear engined buses and did generally sit uneasily on front engined double deckers particularly where an exposed radiator was used. One thing in SELNEC’s favour was that it went for something new and did not favour any of the previous liveries of any of the constituent operators. West Midlands got a watered down Birmingham livery for example with no recognition of the other three operators involved. The same applied on Tyneside with South Shields not getting a look in.

Philip Halstead

27/03/13 – 12:17

Orla has a good point about the trolleybuses, especially as they were Lloyd Kohler system of current transfer – a total dead end in the trolleybus world.
I’m not sure the tin fronts were an attempt at modernity. Leyland decided to standardise on the tin front and later St Helen’s fronts. For a period, there was a small premium for the traditional radiator. This coincided with Stockport’s tin front and St Helens front orders – so the adoption of these styles was typical of their monetary conservatism.
Philip restates a long held misunderstanding regarding the design of SELNEC’s livery. It was definitely not designed for rear engined vehicles, or even the SELNEC “Standards”, the design of which had not been finalised at the time the livery was agreed.
In 1970 I had a meeting with Tony Harrison in his office in Peter House. On the window ledge was a range of bus models, some Corgi, some Dinky, some hand built and a mix of single deckers and front and rear engined double deckers in an array of colour schemes.
Whilst I was there for another reason to be revealed in an article in due course, I asked Tony what they were for. As I found out later when he was my boss, he wasn’t the most patient man but he told me they had been used when the livery was designed and he gave me chapter and verse on how the SELNEC Board were frustrated by what at the time was a negative public and media reaction to the scheme.
He told me that they had decided to avoid any reference to any of the constituent Transport Departments’ colours and had looked to have designed a layout between the orange and warm white which would look balanced on any vehicle even when side advertising was applied.
Stuart Brown in “Greater Manchester Buses” states correctly that the orange band above the lower deck windows was not to be more than 12 inches deep and the white on the between decks panel was to be fixed at 26 inches.
This is where the misapprehension regarding the scheme being designed for rear engined vehicles arises. Whilst the “Standard” design hadn’t been finalised when the dimensions of the scheme were worked out, the dimensions were exactly those of the Northern Counties “Standard” but not of the Park Royal version, which had a deeper between decks band.
At the time they had expected to keep rear entrance double deckers until the end of the 1970s, given the slow delivery rate from the Leyland group so needed a scheme to cover all types. The initial scheme the designers came up with was the Mancunian scheme with the white replaced by orange and the red by white. There was a model of a rear entrance bus in Tony’s office in that scheme and it look terrible, particularly around the rear nearside, though it looked a little better on a rear engined model. It was quickly rejected.
Once real vehicles were painted two things became apparent. With certain types, keeping to the dimensions made some bodies look ungainly. The difference in depth of the orange below the upper deck window line due to window depth, to maintain the 26 inches between decks white dimension, gave the impression of random application when different bodies were seen together.
Secondly, after a short period of time, different paint shops decided to vary the application to suit certain body styles. The Northern Division was the worst offender. Bury’s MCW bodied Atlanteans were painted almost correctly but almost identical Bolton versions had different paint dimensions and Bolton’s East Lancs bodied Atlanteans had different versions almost batch by batch. Bolton’s MCW front entrance PD3s had a unique version of the Orion scheme with virtually no orange under the windows making the between decks white very wide.
What had been intended as a non-partisan, unifying scheme rapidly descended into something resembling a visual disaster.

Phil Blinkhorn

27/03/13 – 12:18

Although Stockport had a conservative vehicle-buying policy and never operated a rear-engined double-decker, a batch of Bristol VRs was being built for them at the time of SELNEC’s formation but a fire at the factory destroyed them all before delivery.
This must have been the East Lancs factory in Blackburn. Someone will know more! There is a story that at least one of the chassis ended up in New Zealand.

Geoff Kerr

27/03/13 – 16:47

The fire was at the East Lancs Blackburn factory. The full story will appear on this Forum shortly. One VRT chassis was certainly saved in complete form and ended up in Woollagong Australia with a locally built body. It’s been stated that of the rest, those that could be salvaged were broken for spares.
There is a story that Daw Bank would not have received the vehicles and that they would have been sent to Leigh where they would have been used to introduce OMO service, their lower height would have allowed them to be stabled in the old Corporation depot.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/03/13 – 06:49

Philip H mentions South Shields not getting a look in with the new T&W PTE livery, Sunderland were in the same boat. T&W decided that their livery would be based on the yellow of Newcastle Corporation, they went through several different permutations before they eventually settled for something not a million miles from where they started. The change would have been obvious to anyone living in South Shields or Sunderland, whereas most people in the Newcastle area would hardly be aware that the livery had changed.

Ronnie Hoye

28/03/13 – 06:49

In a recent edition of ‘Classic Bus’ there was a brave attempt by Mike Eyre based on Southampton buses to interpret what the VR’s would have looked like had they made it to Stockport including mock ‘J’ registrations in the JA series. Unfortunately I think the answer is ‘ugly’ especially with the treatment of the radiator grills and had they gone to Leigh I should not have wept.

Orla Nutting

28/03/13 – 07:57

Orla, I haven’t seen the Mike Eyre attempt but I can say two things with certainty based on seeing the first of the batch complete and painted. The vehicles would have looked very much like any other East Lancs rear engine design, similar to the last Bury Atlanteans and Fleetlines plus radiator grilles a la the delivery of VRs to Sheffield in 1972.
As Mike’s attempt was based on Southampton, I assume you mean the livery layout. Of course the bus was painted in full SELNEC colours but no logo or legal lettering had been applied when I saw it so the veracity of the Leigh story cannot be confirmed. The front indicator layout was standard SELNEC with a number indicator in the usual SELNEC nearside position.
My East Lancs’ contact promised to look out the correspondence with Stockport regarding livery for my subsequent visit. My contact said he seemed to remember they had been asked to quote for both the traditional Stockport layout and a revised layout based on that supplied on the Leopards. There seems to have been a division of opinion in the Stockport Transport Committee regarding the Leopard scheme. He did comment that the traditional layout cost a few pounds more per bus due to the extra masking and lining out.
Of course my subsequent visit never materialised as the fire intervened, destroyed their records and lost me an order for SELNEC!

Phil Blinkhorn

29/03/13 – 06:50

The first attempts at modernising the look of the early rear engined double deckers fell broadly into two camps: the peak and angle treatment (Liverpool and Bolton) and the curves (e.g. most Alexanders, plus other builders using Alexander features). Unfortunately by 1970 the standard offering from East Lancs had a foot in each camp, with a peaked dome above a curved windscreen, which always jarred with me. This is the version which Mike Eyre used as the basis for his image. The curved windscreen was not obligatory, however – the Sheffield VRs didn’t have it, and neither did the Fleetlines ordered by Bury and delivered to SELNEC. As for the grill on the Sheffield VRs, the attempt to hide it rather than make a feature of it was not a clever idea, although I’m sure it must have saved a few quid!

Peter Williamson

29/03/13 – 08:54

Peter, this is the body style used on the “Stockport” VRs: www.sct61.org.uk/ 
Move the staircase forward to the standard front entrance position and add the grille and you have the bus as I saw it.

Phil Blinkhorn

29/03/13 – 08:55

The Sheffield East Lancs bodied VRs were withdrawn by the PTE as non-standard in the late seventies. They went on to have long lives with various NBC companies notably Crosville and Hastings & District. In late 1974 one was on loan as a demonstrator to West Yorkshire PTE. I saw it working the Bradford-Halifax service. New VRs did not figure on WYPTE orders but its successor Yorkshire Rider ran many after they absorbed West Yorkshire Road Car in 1990.
As well as Sheffield Merseyside PTE also ran some East Lancs bodied VRs

Chris Hough

31/03/13 – 07:42

The Sheffield VR loaned to West Yorkshire PTE in 1975 was fleet number 275. It was a swap with WYPTE AN68 6003 which was fitted with Leyland G3 automatic gearbox control which SYPTE wished to try. Engineers from Dennis had a look at the drive train of the VR whilst it was at Halifax when they were designing the Dominator (ie how NOT to design a drive train!)

Ian Wild

Dews Coaches – Leyland PD3 – FTF 702F

Dews Coaches - Leyland PD3 - FTF 702F

Dews Coaches
1967
Leyland PD3/4
East Lancs H41/32F

This PD3 was delivered to Ramsbottom UDC in November 1967. The chassis is variously described as PD3/4 or PD3/14, the confusion arising because Leyland reclassified its chassis codes at around that time. PD3/4 is probably correct. The body is by East Lancs and was delivered as H41/32, but, again, the capacity is now sometimes quoted as 70 seats. The Ramsbottom fleet was absorbed into SELNEC on 1/11/1969, and FTF 702F was withdrawn by SELNEC’s successor, Greater Manchester PTE, in December 1980. It was sold initially to Gold Star Coaches in St Asaph, North Wales, who then disposed of it to Alpha Coaches of Bootle in 1984. It didn’t stay there for very long, because in July 1984 it appeared in the fleet of Black Prince of Morley, who ran it right up to the end of that firm’s operation in July 2005. First Group sold it in September 2006 to Dews Coaches of Somersham, who added it to their small heritage fleet. FTF is seen here on wedding duties in St Ives (the Huntingdonshire one) on 5/9/2015.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

12/05/16 – 07:15

In my own days in St Ives, Ronny Dew ran a range of Bedford coaches however there were many Leyland PDs operated around the area by Whippet Coaches. Seven ex-Trent 72-seat rear entrance PD3/4s were in this mix but I don’t recall any forward entrance ones in Mr Lee’s fleet. Additionally there were a good number of PD2s most of which also came from Trent. I remember one low-bridge model from East Midland that I had previously ridden whilst it was with working on EMMS home territory.

Les Dickinson

12/05/16 – 17:02

A stunning all Lancashire product looking as good as it did 49 years ago when I first saw it. I prefer preserved vehicles in their original livery but this presentation is 100% plus.

Phil Blinkhorn

13/05/16 – 06:10

FTF 702F_2

Nice view, Roger. I have submitted one to Peter with the bus in “Black Prince” guise, at Duxford, if he’d like to dig it out.

Pete Davies

13/05/16 – 06:11

This fine vehicle was the last bus to run on scheduled Black Prince with one of the Cowther family at the wheel. Black Prince also had a Roe bodied Leyland Titan that was new to Farsley Omnibus. The whereabouts of this bus would be appreciated.

Chris Hough

13/05/16 – 06:12

I was lucky enough to have a ride on it last year at the Peterborough Bus Rally and it was in fine fettle. A friend of mine in his early twenties was at the wheel. For a young lad brought up on modern ‘aim and point’ buses he managed the heavy Leyland manual transmission admirably.

Philip Halstead

13/05/16 – 06:15

CUY 465

As Phil points out, this PD3 in Dew’s colours is a fine example of a traditional livery that stands head and shoulders above the ‘modern’, indulgent, eye offending absurdities that blight bus fleets today. Dews (the firm itself has abandoned the apostrophe) does have a Bedford OWB coach, CUT 465, of 1944 vintage with a later Duple Vista C29F body of 1952. It has made a brief appearance in the Foyle’s War TV series, though purists would declare that its later body makes it an anachronism in a wartime drama. It is seen here in the fenland town of Ramsey, providing a service to the former RAF Upwood airfield during the 1940s August weekend event of 2006. The gentleman facing the camera from behind the nearside mirror is Simon Dew who currently runs the business with his wife Debbie, though his father, David, still has active involvement.

Roger Cox

14/05/16 – 06:43

FTF 702F_3

A slight diversion, I know this is not a model bus site but here is a model I made of the same vehicle in original Ramsbottom UDC livery. It is 00 scale 4mm to 1 foot made from a plastic kit.

Philip Halstead

14/05/16 – 08:49

FTF 702F_4

This picture of “FTF” which I took as it waited to operate the very last ever Black Prince departure from Leeds Vicar Lane to Morley at 2315 on Saturday 30th July 2005. The conductor is Brian Crowther, founder of Black Prince, and the driver is his son David – the route is a tricky one with many stops on the steep Churwell Hill. The bus was virtually full all the way, and one well sozzled client was heard to splutter “What are they doing with old London Transport buses on here ??” Such is the lamentable understanding of many of the lay public about public transport I’m afraid. I have no hesitation in saying that David’s impeccable performance gave us the finest ride on a manual PD3 that we’d ever experienced, not the easiest machines to handle on hills with heavy loads, and the journey was a credit to him and his Dad, who didn’t show their emotions too dramatically but it must have been a very emotive hour for them.

Chris Youhill

15/05/16 – 06:57

Nice views of ‘little’ and ‘large’, Philip and Chris! Could Philip please point us in the right direction for obtaining such a kit?

Pete Davies

16/05/16 – 06:49

The kit was made by a company called Classic Model Company (earlier named MTS) but I am not sure if they are still available. They may be available on e-bay. I did hear the Model Bus Federation had bought the moulds so they many be obtainable through that organisation. The kit is a one piece plastic bodyshell with seating, wings, wheels etc included to be added separately. As kits go they were quite easy to build. They were offered as Leyland PD3 with exposed traditional radiator or St Helens front, AEC Regent V and Daimler CVG6. Transfers were included for Ramsbottom, Haslingden, Bradford, Huddersfield and Black Prince. The firm also did a Bristol FS with transfers for various Tilling/NBC fleets plus Central SMT. When available originally they cost about a fiver so were excellent value and very good quality. Hope this helps.

Philip Halstead

19/05/16 – 06:03

That green and white livery with red wheels is very attractive. Shades of Nottingham Corporation Transport at its best in terms of livery.
On balance I think I favour this one over the other good liveries that this vehicle has borne.

Orla Nutting

19/05/16 – 14:40

Thank you, Philip!

Pete Davies

19/05/16 – 14:40

FTF 702F_5

I myself have been lucky enough to drive FTF 702F whilst with Dews, I took it out on a number of occasions on trips to local rallies etc with members of the Cambridge Omnibus Society. A very pleasant bus to drive. The pic shows me with it at Great Yeldham Transport Museum open day in May 2011. It has the obligatory ‘Wedding Special’ on the blind to advertise the fact its available for wedding hire. The destination box being on the small size it would have only shown minimal info when in service.

John Wakefield

27/05/16 – 06:14

I think someone asked about the Farsley bus – HNW 366D. Sadly this was burnt out some years ago.

Paul Turner

07/06/16 – 06:58

After Black Prince HNW 366D moved to Classic Coaches and after the demise of the latter went to auction (with no COF) but was set on fire in the auctioneers yard after its auction.
BTW it had spent a brief period, joining HNW 365D, at Hardwick’s in Scarborough after WA ceased Farsley operations in the late 60s.

Ian H

02/08/16 – 06:48

Bancroft and Powers bought my grandfathers business Dec 1968, The Bedford CUT 465 was sold to Morton Potter Leicester I think in 1966, I have recently purchased a model of this bus in Dews colours.

Pauline Peters

30/10/16 – 06:20

The DVLA list owner changes of FTF 702F as follows which differ slightly from those quoted by Roger Cox.
current (Dews) 14/9/06
previous(Black Prince) 8/5/84
3rd owner (Alpha Coaches) 29/6/82 disposed 7/12/83
As a matter of interest Dews have recently sold the Leyland to a previous owner in Liverpool, this looks to be Taylor who traded as Alpha Coaches, Bootle.

John Wakefield

02/11/16 – 14:56

Travelled on this many times when it was Selnec 6408 and based at Bury, in the mid 70s.

David Pomfret

14/12/16 – 15:48

FTF 702F-3

Most unusually, this Ramsbottom PD3 was allocated to Rochdale depot by Greater Manchester Transport in the mid 1970s. Rochdale Corporation had never bought Leylands since 1940 and Rochdale’s own Leylands were all withdrawn by 1956. A couple of withdrawn Bolton Leyland PD2s with manual gearboxes were sent to Rochdale in the 1970s for driver training purposes, then 6408 appeared in passenger use. It was the only front-engined Leyland to operate from Rochdale’s Mellor Street depot after 1956.

Ian Holt

06/06/17 – 07:07

I’ve recently received an email with a photo showing that this PD3 has now been repainted back into its original Rawtenstall livery.

John Stringer

Lancaster City Transport – Leyland Titan – LHG 537

Lancaster City Transport - Leyland Titan - LHG 537

Lancaster City Transport
1961
Leyland Titan PD3/6
East Lancs H41/32F

At Local Government Reorganisation in 1974, Lancaster merged with Morecambe & Heysham to form a ‘new’ Lancaster City Transport. The operator found itself short of modern, serviceable, vehicles and some were acquired from Maidstone Borough, some from what had become Burnley & Pendle, one from Merthyr Tydfil, and there was even a Seddon (ex Demonstrator) which has appeared on these pages already. LHG 537 is one of the Burnley contingent, a Titan PD3/6 with East Lancs H73F body, dating from 1961. In this view, she is climbing the hill of Great John Street, towards Lancaster Town Hall, on the 2 to Hala. It is 20 May 1975 and she is still in the Burnley arrangement of maroon and cream – not a great deal different from the Lancaster arrangement – with fleetname in Tilling style.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

16/07/16 – 05:30

Lancaster also bought a lowbridge Atlantean from Trent and a number of ex Salford ones from GMTPTE In addition an ex Wallace Arnold Leyland Leopard was bought from Fishwick.

Chris Hough

16/07/16 – 17:16

Pete is quite correct when he says that the enlarged Lancaster undertaking was short of modern vehicles, much of the fleet comprising ageing AEC Regents at Morecambe. What is quite amusing though is that the “modern” fleet additions he mentions comprised of a variety of buses built between 1957 and 1961, so on arriving around 1974 were somewhat long in the tooth themselves!
The one depicted – and its sisters – were never used as OPO buses in Lancaster and nor were they in Burnley. However, the window to the left and behind the driver appears to have been modified, presumably for the purpose of OPO – and I note the unusual position of the mirror underneath the second ‘A’ of the destination, presumably to give the driver a view of the lower saloon/platform area with a view to being used single-manned.

Dave Towers

18/07/16 – 06:56

This batch of PD3’s had the front bulkhead window arrangement from new. It was a common arrangement on early forward entrance double deckers to allow drivers to see the platform and communicate with the conductor but OPO of double deckers was at that time a long way off becoming legal. The arrangement was tidied up on later designs with the whole front window being angled to avoid the two-piece window. After this it became less noticeable.

Philip Halstead

Rossendale Transport – Leyland Titan – XTF 98D – 45

Rossendale Transport - Leyland Titan - XTF 98D - 45

Rossendale Transport
1966
Leyland Titan PD3/4
East Lancs H41/32F

XTF 98D is a Leyland Titan PD3/4 with East Lancs H73F body, new to Haslingden Corporation in September 1966. Two years later, Haslingden and Rawtenstall combined their fleets to form Rossendale Transport, in which guise we see it here. It is taking part in the King Alfred running day in Winchester on 1 January 2006. It is behind the Bus Station.

XTF 98D_2

Here is a closer shot of the fleetname.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

12/02/17 – 09:11

Think the vehicle is now in Oxford area working for an operator.

Roger Burdett

13/02/17 – 07:05

Thanks, Roger. I think that, when I took the photos, she was with Quantock.

Pete Davies

13/02/17 – 15:07

XTF 98D was last known with The School Bus Company (Oxford) Ltd of Kingston Bagpuize.

John Wakefield

16/02/17 – 16:01

Kingston Bagpuize … now how is THAT pronounced? The “Kingston Bag-” part is (I hope!) straightforward, but after that? When I first saw it (on a map or a road sign), I had an attack of franglais and rhymed it with squeeze, but I think I’ve heard it rhymed with views.
It would, of course, be delightful if the word is actually pronounced like … a certain saggy old cloth cat?

Graham Woods

17/02/17 – 06:23

Graham, according to Wikipedia (not always reliable) the pronunciation of (Kingston) Bagpuize is “bag-pews” – but I didn’t know either until your question prompted me to look it up just now!

Stephen Ford

17/02/17 – 06:26

Graham: I live only 5 miles from Kingston Bagpuize, and although jokey versions such as “bagpipes” are sometimes heard, the current pronunciation is as you’ve heard it—to rhyme with “views”.
It seems that Ralph de Bachepuze came over from Bacquepuis (pronounced roughly “back-pwee”) in Normandy to settle in north Berkshire, so your attack of franglais was quite in order.
Southmoor, adjoining Kingston, is fortunate enough to have the half-hourly 66 Swindon-to-Oxford service, but other nearby villages—Appleton, Fifield, Hinton Waldrist, Longworth and so on—have recently lost their bus service altogether and are therefore playing their patriotic part (at least according to George Osborne’s strange logic) in reducing the “drain” on public finances which decent public transport is said to represent.

Ian Thompson

17/02/17 – 06:27

Bagpuss, I believe.

Chris Hebbron

18/02/17 – 06:53

Thanks, Stephen and Ian, and yes, Chris, that is the cat that I had in mind.

Graham Woods

25/01/19 – 07:06

I used to drive XTF 98D on weddings etc. for Nostalgia Travel (Oxford). A very fine looking vehicle. NT sorted some issues with its injectors and made it run well – but, unfortunately, they had to re-trim the downstairs seats with PVC to replace the worn blue leather covers. Also, they removed the Rossendale name from its sides.
Compared to NT’s Gardner engined Bristol FLF, the Leyland Titan cab was much noisier. Its Leyland O.600 sounded well enough at idle but, crikey, what an ear-bending racket when accelerating up to its 38MPH maximum!
The scales tipped back firmly into the Titan’s favour when considering the two gearboxes, however.

Ade B

13/08/22 – 05:34

This bus passed me on the A4074 near Benson, Oxon today (12/8/22). Looked like it was on hire – for a wedding?

Alan Brampton

Premier Travel – Leyland Titan PD2 – DCK 212


Copyright John Stringer

Premier Travel (Cambridge)
1950
Leyland Titan PD2/3
East Lancs. FL27/26RD

Photographed in Drummer Street, Cambridge in 1970, this was one of eleven former Ribble ‘White Lady’ PD2’s, new in 1950 and purchased by Premier Travel in 1962. Around the same time that Ribble were taking delivery of these, Premier Travel had taken into its fleet three Daimler CVD6’s with uncommon Wilkes & Meade full-fronted double-deck coach type bodies with front ends and other styling features clearly influenced by the Ribble vehicles. The Daimlers were not a success and did not have long lives, but clearly still impressed with the White Lady styling PT’s management seem to have jumped at the chance of grabbing as many as possible when they came onto the second hand market. This one was withdrawn in 1972.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

24/02/13 – 09:54

Thanks for posting, John. I have photos of others of this batch and find it to be an unusual – if not unique – way of using the Ribble ‘square triangle’ indicator display.

Pete Davies

24/02/13 – 12:39

Here is a photo of one of the Daimler CVD6/Wilkes & Meade vehicles. 
See: this link.

Chris Hebbron

25/02/13 – 07:19

The three Wilks and Meade (there is no ‘e’ in Wilks) bodied Daimler CVD6 “County” class double deck coaches, were delivered in 1950 and withdrawn in 1964 (HVE 401) and 1966 (HVE 402/3). The Ribble White Ladies arrived in January 1962, and thus ran alongside the CVDs only for a maximum of four years. The Wilks and Meade bodies on the Daimlers were of very poor quality, and had to be extensively rebuilt using new framing by Premier Travel in its own workshops. The Leylands and their East Lancs bodies were much better buses, and lasted with Premier for eight to eleven years. Paul Carter’s book on Premier Travel (Capital Transport) is the comprehensive history for anyone interested in this operator.

Roger Cox

25/02/13 – 07:22

As Roger Cox has correctly pointed out on the page on this very forum devoted to the bodybuilder Wilks & Meade, that is the correct spelling, rather than the much more frequently quoted Wilkes & Meade. If in doubt, refer to the OBP page devoted to Wallace Arnold – the evidence is there for all to see, in glorious black & white!

David Call

28/07/14 – 07:53

In the background can be seen one of Primitive Travel’s, sorry – Premier Travel’s, ex Devon General AEC Reliance buses (VDV xxx). These were acquired during 1970, so this and the presence of the ECOC LKH dates the picture to no earlier then the summer (note the leafy trees) of 1970 and no later than 1972* when DCK 212 went to Wally Smith’s scrapyard at Thriplow.
*The LKH is almost certainly 168 as by this time it was one of just two surviving K’s in Cambridge; the other, 269, bore adverts between decks whereas 168 didn’t towards the end. But whether 168 or 269, the final demise of the Cambridge K’s narrows the date of the picture down to 1970-71.
On the Wilks & Meade bodies, the problem was the use of unseasoned timber in their construction. This was a common problem in the early postwar years and by no means confined to PT’s Daimlers.
One of the three PT Daimlers, HVE 401 “County of Cambridge” spent many years after withdrawal quietly decomposing at the rear of PT’s Godmanchester depot. It was later kept company by one of the ex LT RF’s and a Burlingham Seagull coach.
The nameplate from HVE 401 (these were small ‘blink and you’ll miss it’ things mounted above the radiator grille) ended up in the late Mr Lainson’s then office at 15 Market Hill; maybe the other two also ended up there but I don’t know.

Darren Kitson

14/07/18 – 07:09

I worked at Premier Travel, Chrishall for approx., 12 years. First as a conductor, then a bus driver. Working for a small company was a pleasure, and I made a lot of good lifetime friends, in fact it was more like a family.I am still interested in old photo’s or books, and would willingly help anyone wishing to fill in about routes run by them. A Mr. Grice ran the Chrishall depot for the whole of my time, and a more dedicated man you would not wish to meet, working far more than the normal hours today, and 7 days a week.

John Harvey

Pioneer Coaches – Leyland Titan PD2 – J 14672 – Oliver

Pioneer Coaches - Leyland Titan PD2 - J 14672 - Oliver

Pioneer Coaches
1958
Leyland Titan PD2/41
East Lancs H35/28R

This vehicle was new to Lancaster City Transport and its registration was 128 DTD. After withdrawal it spent a period with OK Motor Services – Bishop Auckland, and used as a Driver Trainer. It then spent a period in Preservation with the Cumbria Bus Preservation Group before going to Pioneer Coaches, Jersey, Channel Islands and being converted to an Open Topper for use on Round Island Sightseeing Tours.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

18/07/13 – 07:47

This bus is now resident in the Scilly Isles

Chris Hough

21/07/13 – 07:22

At a quick glance this could so easily be mistaken for a Leyland body. Only a quick glance, mind you !

John Stringer

21/07/13 – 07:24

Well, well, well, the old girl’s looking good. SCT61 followers will be aware that this was probably my least favourite bus whilst it was with the OK as I’ve often grumbled about it. This was for a number of reasons, one of which being that it was never painted into OK livery but retained its rather washed-out Lancaster colours so never really looked the part.
During almost two years with OK, although its main duties were as a driver-trainer, DTD made a number of appearance on service on Summer Saturdays when everything else was out, mainly on Evenwood and mainly, it always seemed, for part of the day on yours truly’s shift! As a result of an attempted – though, thankfully, unsuccessful – serious assault one night it went further down in my estimation.
I’m not generally a fan of open-toppers but it looks extremely smart in this livery: not bad for almost 56 years old.

Alan Hall

22/07/13 – 06:49

A picture of DTD 128 as the Driver Trainer with OK Motor Services can be seen on flickr at www.flickr.com/photos/

Stephen Howarth

22/07/13 – 07:13

J 14672_2

Here is a picture of Pioneer Coaches ‘Oliver’ doing what it was bought to do, carrying a good load of happy holiday makers – upper deck only though – on the Round Island Tour.
It is seen here on The Five Mile Road or La Grande Route des Mielles which runs along St Ouen’s Bay to the West of the Island. The protection of the natural landscape has ensured that only limited residential development has occurred along the road. The tree in the foreground and those in the background show clearly which way the wind blows off the Atlantic. There is nothing between this point on Jersey and Newfoundland.

Stephen Howarth

Blackburn Corporation – Leyland Titan – PCB 25 – 25

Blackburn Corporation - Leyland Titan - PCB 25 - 25

Blackburn Corporation – Blackburn Borough Transport
1962
Leyland Titan PD2A/24
East Lancs H35/28R

The local government reorganisation of 1974 resulted in the merger of the municipal fleets of Blackburn and Darwen. The initial livery was a compromise, using Darwen’s red and Blackburn’s green, although the shades of these colours were rather brighter than those previously used. The combined undertaking was titled “Blackburn Borough Transport”, the word “Corporation” ceased to be used at this time (at least for bus fleets) except in Douglas The main subject of this picture is 25 (PCB 25) a Leyland Titan PD2A/24 with East Lancs H35/28R bodywork, one of twelve delivered to Blackburn Corporation in 1962; a further twelve identical vehicles followed in 1964. These followed batches of Guy Arab IV’s, and I’m sure the drivers will have appreciated the semi-automatic gearboxes on these Titans. Other vehicles of both Blackburn and Ribble can be seen, including the rear of an Atlantean in the previous Blackburn livery. After a few years a version of the latter livery was applied to the whole fleet.

The photograph was taken at The Boulevard bus terminus, which was right outside Blackburn Railway Station. This terminus served the town well until recently, but at the time of writing this area is a building site, with temporary traffic lights causing delays to buses entering or leaving the town from the south. A new bus station is under construction near to the market hall, and a temporary bus station has been built nearby. Nowadays the former municipal services are operated by Transdev Lancashire United, which revives a once proud name, although not in it’s original operating area.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

11/09/14 – 077:00

Don, there was another exception – Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Transport. Buses proudly carried the fleet name ‘Barrow Corporation’ well into the 1980s. They retained their smart cream and dark blue livery and a coat of arms too. Nice picture with plenty of background interest which captures the era well.

Mike Morton

13/09/14 – 06:35

The semi-automatic PD2 (as opposed to PD3) was a pretty rare vehicle really. And I don’t recall the centrifugal clutches rattling on these PD2s the way they did on Ribble, Wigan, Preston etc PD3s when idling.

Michael Keeley

14/09/14 – 07:26

There were indeed more semi-automatic PD3s built for UK operators than semi-automatic PD2s, but not all that many more.
I can think of 391 PD2s, whereas the total for PD3s was, I think, about 580. The main customer for two-pedal PD2s was Glasgow Corporation Transport, which took 325. Others operators which spring to mind are Blackburn (24), Leeds (20), Huddersfield (6), Manchester (6), Swindon (5), King Alfred (2), Ramsbottom (1), Walsall (1), Demonstrator (1).
Taking Glasgow out of the equation gives 66 PD2s and about 440 PD3s, so, outside Glasgow, two-pedal PD2s were indeed relatively rare. There’s no way a centrifugal clutch couldn’t rattle, so if the Blackburn PD2A/24s didn’t rattle then there’s no way they could have been centrifugal clutch, they must have been fluid flywheel, which is what I would have said they were anyway.
Of the Ribble two-pedal PD3s, only 1706-1800 were centrifugal clutch, the final batch (1815-50) being fluid flywheel.
All two-pedal Preston PD3s were centrifugal clutch, but they only took the one batch (of seven), choosing manual transmissions for all subsequent PD3s.
I never seriously encountered the Wigan PD3s, sorry.

David Call

16/09/14 – 07:52

Never realised Glasgow had so many, their half-cabs were long gone by the first time I visited that city. Come to think of it, it was only the Ribble 1700s that rattled. The Wigans rattled with a vengeance as evidenced by the video of HEK 705 on Youtube. Some early Atlanteans had centrifugal clutches I believe, but had them quickly replaced by fluid flywheels, what did they sound like I wonder.

Michael Keeley

13/08/20 – 10:26

Brighton buses also proclaimed “Brighton Corporation” well into the eighties.

Eddie Leslie

Ribble – Leyland Titan PD2 – DCK 219 – 1248

Ribble - Leyland Titan - DCK 219 - 1248

Ribble Motor Services
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/3
East Lancs FCL27/22RD

This vehicle is easily recognisable as one of Ribble’s famous ‘White Ladies’. She has a Leyland Titan PD2/3 chassis, with East Lancs FCL49RD body. She dates from 1951 and, at the time of this photograph, she was with Quantock. I understand she has now passed to Sir Brian Souter. We see her outside the Guildhall, but Prestonians will know that this is not Preston Guildhall. The date of 1st January 2005 gives a clue – she’s in Winchester for a King Alfred running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

26/02/16 – 05:32

Back in the spring of 1972 I had read in “Buses” magazine that Premier Travel were about to withdraw the last of their ex Ribble White Ladies, so I decided take a day trip to Cambridge to sample one while I had the chance. I rode from Cambridge to Royston and the youthful conductor (who I now suspect was Paul Carter, later to write the history of Premier) told me that I could catch a bus from Royston to the depot at Chrishall and then another back to Cambridge. I did as suggested and at the depot I found the chief engineer in the process of handing over this very bus to a group of enthusiasts for preservation. It was to be 43 years before I saw it again at the Scottish Bus Museum at Lathlalmond in 2015.

Nigel Turner

26/02/16 – 08:43

Thanks for that, Nigel. I still can’t reconcile the lowbridge seating with coach designation, but there we are!

Pete Davies

27/02/16 – 08:36

These vehicles were often used on service X4 from Manchester to Burnley via Todmorden, which passed under a low bridge at Portsmouth (a suburb of Todmorden.)

Don McKeown

27/02/16 – 09:22

I’m pretty sure that the bridge which barred full-height double-deckers from services X4/X14 was on the A646 between Walk Mill and Towneley. There isn’t a bridge at Portsmouth, but there is one just down the road at Cornholme. This is passable for full-height double-deckers (Yorkshire Rider used highbridge Atlanteans on Halifax depot’s share of service 592, Halifax-Burnley), but, being an arched bridge, it’s still ‘risky’.

David Call

27/02/16 – 12:55

I drove this vehicle a few times for Stephen Morris before he sold it to Brian Souter. It certainly was a lively performer but rolled a lot upstairs.
Great vehicle and lovely to see it.

Roger Burdett

28/02/16 – 06:11

The bridge between Walk Mill and Towneley had a maximum permissible height of 14ft 6in and was passable for full-height double deckers up to and including that height. I remember passing under it on an enthusiasts’ outing with Halifax JOC 377 (BCP 671) and we stopped to photograph it doing so. The bridge was a straight steel one – not arched – so it was not a case of getting the position right. I think in the days before WYPTE diverted the Halifax-Todmorden Burnley route via Mereclough and Pike Hill it was not unknown for full-height double decks to pass under the bridge, though low-heights were the normal allocation. I know Burnley & Pendle had to be careful when their coaching unit received some Volvo CityBus double deckers, as they were 14 ft 9in and had to avoid the bridge.

John Stringer

28/02/16 – 15:22

Bridge heights always a problem as there seems to be some debate regarding this particular vehicle and the necessity for using it here is a suggestion. I seem to recall London Transport Country having problems with RCL Routemasters some where in I think Hertfordshire where the road had been lowered so that the warning sign indicated enough clearance for said vehicle but upon exiting from under the bridge hit the back end of the vehicle.
This is probably more common with HGVs particularly artics where the front of the vehicle rises up before the back and levels out earlier.

Patrick Armstrong

18/11/16 – 11:40

I used to “spot” these beautiful buses as they made their way through Prestwich, north of Manchester. I have also tried hard to interest someone in a die cast model but to no avail as they were only used by Ribble and Premier. What a shame!

Peter Worsley

Burnley, Colne & Nelson JTC – Leyland Tiger – CHG 540 – 40

Burnley, Colne & Nelson JTC - Leyland Tiger - CHG 540 - 40

Burnley, Colne & Nelson JTC
1954
Leyland Tiger PS2/14
East Lancs B39R

Leyland PS2/14 chassis number 540923 was first delivered  to Burnley, Colne & Nelson in 1954 with East Lancs B39R body number EL 5042. In 1958 it was rebodied to B39F by East Lancs, body number EL 5340 for one man operation.
It  is seen here on October 30th 2011, arriving at The Piece Hall, Halifax for the Heart of the Pennines event.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

15/10/15 – 07:23

Was it really rebodied after only four years, or did East Lancs give the body a front entrance and other updated features in 1958, with a fresh body number to validate the job ? Otherwise, a new body after just four years seems remarkably profligate of the Committee.

Petras409

15/10/15 – 07:23

Very nice, Les. The cobbled street adds atmosphere!

Pete Davies

16/10/15 – 06:07

It wasn’t rebodied it just had the entrance moved from rear to front to allow OMO. I am pretty sure the whole batch was similarly treated. The new body number must just have been for administrative purposes at East Lancs. The short window next to the rear curved window shows where the original entrance was positioned.

Philip Halstead

17/10/15 – 07:37

Indeed, Bus Lists on the Web shows that 539-546 were all treated similarly, each receiving a new body number in the process.

Les Dickinson

Green Bus Service – Leyland Tiger Cub – BCW 466B

Green Bus Company - Leyland Tiger Cub - BCW 466B

Green Bus Service
1964
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/11
East Lancs B43F

The Late Graham Martin’s Green Bus Service (aka Warstone Motors) ran routes in rural Staffordshire. Here is an ex-Burnley Colne and Nelson Leyland Tiger Cub with East Lancs body it was fleet number 66 in their fleet. It is seen in this shot leaving the village of Brewood and has just crossed the Shropshire Union Canal.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin

30/04/14 – 18:01

There is an ex-Burnley Colne and Nelson Leyland Tiger Cub for sale in the May edition of Bus & Coach Preservation’ magazine can not see a registration plate suspect it is one from the previous 50 – 59 1963 batch although the advertisement dates the vehicle as 1962.

Peter

11/03/15 – 16:36

The Company name was Green Bus Service – Knowing Mr Martin I’m sure he would want that corrected.

Phil Atherton

Sorry about that I have updated the posting.