Tag: East Lancs

Warrington Corporation – Foden PVD6 – OED 217 – 112

Warrington Corporation - Foden PVD6 - OED 217 - 112

Warrington Corporation
1956
Foden PVD6
East Lancs H30/28R

We don’t see many Foden buses south of Birmingham, and we don’t see many Warrington buses down here either, so here is a view which fits both categories. OED 217 is a Foden PVD6 from 1956, when she was built for Warrington (still in Lancashire at that time!) Corporation. She has an East Lancs H58R body and is seen in the St Catherine’s Park & Ride site in Winchester, on 1 January, 2010, during one of those famous King Alfred Running Days.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

13/10/13 – 08:11

As I said, the day after this was photographed – having ridden on it – a beautiful bus; superbly restored and expertly driven.

David Oldfield

13/10/13 – 14:43

The vehicle looks superb, with very handsome bodywork.
I saw another Warrington Foden PVD6 a couple of weeks ago, parked alongside track, at Onibury level crossing, on the A49, just south of Craven Arms, Salops. Impossible to stop or go back because it is a narrow, busy, road and parking appeared to be difficult. It appears to be fleet No. 102 (MED168) dating from 1954, with a Crossley body, not too dissimilar from the above one, from the brief glimpse I got (wife was driving). It was parked in the open air and looks a bit sad. I hope it won’t go the way of all metal. Incidentally, from a brief visit to Warrington some yeaasrs ago, I seem to recall the destination blind, “NOT IN SERVICE – SORRY! How polite!

Chris Hebbron

13/10/13 – 18:41

David Oldfield’s review of this same New Years Day out in Winchester appears in the “ARTICLES” section on this site!

Pete Davies

14/10/13 – 08:16

I can’t resist a digression here Chris H when you mention Onibury. Do you know Stokesay Court, a wonderful old mansion which lies in glorious grounds. It was taken over as a military hospital in WW1 and my Dad recuperated there from awful injuries on The Somme. The owners by the turn of the century were experiencing financial difficulty in maintaining the place, understandably, until a film company came looking for a stately home for an epic movie and Stokesay Court was chosen – so “Atonement” has to all intents and purposes saved the beautiful old place. Apologies, and now back to Warrington.

Chris Youhill

15/10/13 – 07:18

I went to visit Stokesay, en passant, some months after seeing the slightly flawed ‘Atonement’, but it only took pre-booked tours. We walked around the impressive building and grounds, then moved on. Frustrating, Chris!
A couple of weeks ago, we didn’t have time!

Chris Hebbron

15/10/13 – 11:34

Chris, I was very fortunate indeed as regards Stokesay Court. Among my Dad’s belongings were a couple of sepia postcards of the place – he never actually mentioned it – and it always filled me with curiosity and so, before the “Atonement” period, I decided to take a couple of night’s B & B in the Craven Arms and just look at the place from outside for a bit of “closure.” I took the few mementos with me and asked at the local Tourist Office where I was told that the Court was, of course, a private residence with no public access. I briefly told the helpful ladies the reasons for my visit, expecting that would be the end of the matter. “Just a minute” said one, and went to an adjacent room where she could be heard making a phone call, and explaining to whoever was on the other end that “there’s a gentleman ‘ere with documents and postcards etc etc.” She returned and I was stunned and delighted to be told “Go straight there now, and Miss Caroline Magnus will talk to you and show you round.” Can you imagine my feelings in, I think 2001, to enter the place where seventy odd years before my wounded Dad had recovered from the horrors of the Somme. Miss Magnus (owner of the Court) was most charming and interesting and spent some time with me. She was particularly taken with the khaki military hymn/prayer book – a copy of which was given to each convalescent soldier – which was signed in good old “Swan” blue/black ink by her forbear who was the owner at the time – the inscription reads :-
“Sergeant Youhill, 15 West Yorks. Hoping this will help you and bring you happy memories of Stokesay Court Onibury Shropshire. Margaret Rotton.”
The book is one of my most treasured possessions. “15 West Yorks” was of course the “Leeds Pals” who were practically obliterated on the Somme.
With renewed apologies to the good townsfolk of Warrington – now hold very tight please !!

Chris Youhill

16/10/13 – 06:52

Looking at this photo brings it home to me just how much we have lost with the virtual demise of municipal transport. Here we have an operator that bought these vehicles from a small scale manufacturer (at least of buses) no doubt to support local industry with Sandbach being only a stones throw from Warrington. In addition we have a superb livery in what may be termed the ‘traditional’ style, unfettered by advertisements and route branding. We have a clear fleetname with the civic crest on the side panels and a clear and correctly set destination display. I know this is a posed photo in the preservation era but they were really like that in normal service. Warrington had other interesting buses as well with Bristol K6G’s and Leyland PD2 specials with longer but narrower 7’6″ wide bodies. Ah nostalgia and civic pride!

Philip Halstead

16/10/13 – 06:52

You definitely deserved red carpet treatment, Chris, and I’m glad it was afforded to you by some very kind folk. No such luck with a great uncle of mine, killed by a sniper on Oct 14th 1914, a couple of weeks after arrival!
And now three rings on the bell!

Chris Hebbron

16/10/13 – 09:42

Philip, as you rightly say this unusual vehicle is quite simply magnificent – the combination of dignified civic pride and good taste with an out of the ordinary mix of chassis and body types. The Fodens were superb vehicles but, for the want of a better expression, needed driving properly. I’d only been driving about two or three weeks when I was asked to run an extra coach on the very popular Sunday evening trips from Otley – price 3/3d per ticket !! I eagerly agreed although I’d no idea at the time where Bishop Monkton was – it involved the treacherous ascent of Norwood Edge – and was allocated MUA 864 similar the 867 below.

MUA 867

The late turn garage man, a very kindly experienced chap who was a mentor of mine in many ways quietly gasped “’E’s not give thi’ t’Fodden as ‘e??” When I quakingly replied that “he” had poor old Jackie went white and confided “Well, whativver tha’ does – for God’s sake pull up at bottom o’ Norwood Edge and gerrit i’ fust gear – cos if tha dunt and tha tries to change down tha’ll miss it un roll straight back inter t’ ressivoy.” Bless dear old Jackie – a kindly saint in overalls. The other driver in the Tiger Cub made sure that I wasn’t left behind, and it was a grand trip which taught me an early lesson with the Fodens – just get the revs wrong by one rpm and the high pitched screeching could be heard for miles around !!

Chris Youhill

16/10/13 – 14:09

Indeed a grand-looking vehicle. Foden’s simple, yet distinctive design for concealing the radiator was surely one of the most attractive of the ‘new look’ fronts then coming into fashion. It just seemed to blend in well with most body styles, whether double-decker, single-decker or coach. (Would I be right in thinking that Foden supplied complete front and bonnet assemblies to the coachbuilders?) Philip, you are so right that the photo brings home much of what has been lost over the years – individuality, civic pride and support for local industry. (Even allowing for inflation, I’m sure fares were also cheaper then too. To travel the one and a half miles from home into Harrogate now costs £2.20 each way. Is that a lot or am I just being a stereotypical Yorkshireman?)
Chris, I loved the story about your Sunday evening excursion up Norwood Edge, as I know it and Lindley Wood ‘ressivoy’ very well. I can vouch for the steepness of the hill, and the sharpness of its bend as you near the top. Hopefully the wonderful views from the summit took your passengers minds off the snail-paced climb in first gear to get there.

Brendan Smith

17/10/13 – 11:40

Brendan – I doubt if the passengers even noticed the view after four or five miles of my woeful attempt to become a polished coach driver on such a “difficult for the unfamiliar” vehicle !! As many of them were no doubt used to seeing me issuing bus tickets as a conductor I fear that they may have been mentally checking their life assurance policies and hoping against hope for a final pint at Bishop Monkton.

Chris Youhill

18/10/13 – 07:56

How I agree with your last point, Chris, the world looks a much better place hurtling to your doom AFTER having a pint or two! Lucky that a chance meeting enabled you all to live another day! I have to say I’ve never seen a single deck version of the PVD, only the rear-engined version. Rather nice looking.

Chris Hebbron

18/10/13 – 17:04

A Plaxton, no less.

David Oldfield

18/10/13 – 17:06

Chris H – there was good news for the reluctant mountaineers after their drinks as the return journey to Otley was by an equally picturesque but less exciting route.

MUA 864

Here is a picture of the actual Foden, MUA 864, while waiting for a peak Summer express duplicate for West Yorkshire RCC – an enormous and highly lucrative contract for Samuel Ledgard. The coach is in the superb original “black roof” livery.

ONW 20

This other picture shows ONW 2 – the two stroke 37 seater of 1951 which had appeared at the Commercial Motor Show as “FWP 1951.” It was unchallenged in its heyday as the fastest PSV in the area, and for Winter comfort and ambience sported a two bar electric fire with cheery “coals.” It is shown here in Chester Street, Bradford, also on a WYRCC express relief.

Chris Youhill

22/10/13 – 17:34

Fodens south of Birmingham – some ran in South Wales – Caerphilly and West Mon both had single-deckers.

Geoff Kerr

23/10/13 – 05:48

Merthyr bought six double-deckers with unfortunate-looking Welsh Metal Industries bodies.

David Beilby

23/10/13 – 11:47

Here’s an WMI-bodied Foden supplied to Smith’s of Barrhead: www.flickr.com/photos/

Chris Hebbron

23/10/13 – 15:56

Do you think the WMI body is a poor copy of Weymann’s? [Especially the external roof ribs.] Apart from Weymann and Roe, there were some really stylish bodies in the late 40′ and early ’50s – and then there were some real dogs!

David Oldfield

23/10/13 – 15:56

Try www.alangeorge.co.uk/buses.htm  for a comprehensive gallery of Merthyr buses. Daimler, Leyland, Bristol and I’m not so sure….. includes these WNI Fodens with their (seemingly) shallow windows, and some newspaper cuttings including the hero driver who saved his passengers on the ice (bet you couldn’t do that in today’s straight-line specials).

Joe

23/10/13 – 15:57

Here’s a Foden of West Mon: //tinyurl.com/nf2ajo7  and here is a Welsh Metal Industries advert of 1948, showing a Merthyr bus.

wmi_ad

Note the great play being made of their light alloy bodies, primarily sourced from aluminium used from broken up wartime aircraft.

Chris Hebbron

23/10/13 – 16:47

Smiths of Barrhead seemed to favour Fodens. In addition to CGA 235 they had WMI bodied GGD 306 and Massey bodied JYS 466 which, though lowbridge like the WMI bodies, showed a much more sympathetic understanding of the Foden concealed radiator design albeit marred slightly by Massey’s then usual steeply raked top deck profile (see Classic Bus No 112 front cover for an excellent photo).

Orla Nutting

23/10/13 – 17:39

Plaxton, Metalcraft and Whitson seemed to get it right with the coaches and East Lancs (above) probably the best decker.
The Willowbrook that Tracky had from Cawthorne (ex demonstrator) was a bit of a dog, as well. Checking back, it’s not that different from the WMI design. Was this a Foden design used by both concerns?

David Oldfield

24/10/13 – 07:46

Welsh Metal Industries was one of the regional subsidiaries of the Metal Industries Group which also owned Sentinel at this time, and the bodywork was constructed from “stock” MI Group components used by customers such as J C Beadle. If you compare the downstairs windows of the PVD6 in the WMI ad to any shot of a Sentinel-bodied single-decker you will immediately spot the uncanny resemblance. Whitson also used these components (panels and window-pans) on the three SLC6/30 saloons it bodied to Sentinel’s basic design, even though these were timber-framed. The same basic parts had originally been supplied to JC Beadle in the late 1940s for the various semi-integral saloons they built using Bedford, Leyland Cub, and Morris running units.

Neville Mercer

14/02/14 – 07:01

I have driven this Warrington corporation Foden many miles when I lived in England and worked for Warrington corporation transport and seeing this on you site brought back many happy memories. Thanks for posting it

Ken Wilkinson

28/09/14 – 06:43

That Foden is still in the open at Onibury today, together with a sd Foden and at least one other vehicle. All in the open and unprotected.

Tony Martin

28/09/14 – 12:32

Gosh Tony, not often we hear of Onibury (Shropshire) but at Stokesay Court there, which was a military hospital in WW1, my Dad recovered from wounds suffered on the Somme. The mansion has recently appeared in the film “Atonement.” What a shame that the Fodens appear to be vulnerable like this.

Chris Youhill

28/09/14 – 18:25

For anyone with deep pockets and a lot of time on their hands, OED 217 is for sale on Ebay for the first £18000 offer. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TV-Star-1956-Foden-PVD6-East-Lancs-Double-Deck-Bus

Orla Nutting

29/09/14 – 07:40

Sad if a superb, and superbly restored, bus ends up in PSV heaven for the want of a good, and solvent carer. Similarly, as Roger has intimated many times before, there are hoards of RTs and RMs in preservation but very few Fodens. For that reason alone it ought to be saved let alone the other fact, as I have said before, that Fodens were unassailably quality vehicles in their own right.

David Oldfield

02/10/14 – 07:55

This vehicle has been for sale at a totally unrealistic price for several years now. It breaks my heart to see it under threat because the owner (apparently) has the idea that he should recover some of the money he has spent on it in the past. We all know that Bedford OBs fetch fancy prices, but they’re easy to maintain and store (as well as being too cute for words!). Compare the price for the Foden with other similar vehicles in the small ads of B&CP – you could get three fully restored ‘deckers for this amount. Incidentally, does anyone know the current status of the other (Crossley bodied) Warrington Foden which went into preservation?

Neville Mercer

02/10/14 – 11:32

Prices are irrelevant – it’s what people will will pay is the important point. Crosville Motors of WSM have a Lodekka and FLF for sale at £22,500 each. Both in full working order and also can be viewed on Ebay. Of course these are Bristols so obviously more desirable!!!

Ken Jones

03/10/14 – 07:01

NO bias, then, Ken!

Chris Hebbron

05/05/15 – 07:17

I notice some people mentioning about the WBT bus that’s at Onibury on here. I live in Ludlow (we actually moved from Warrington to Ludlow) and it was my dad that actually noticed the WBT buses parked up there. I’ve got a bit of a fear of level crossings (siderodromaphobia) so don’t tend to like crossing there, but I do know if you go from Ludlow end just after the level crossing there is a turning right into Onibury. The A49 is certainly not a place you want to stop to take pictures but if you turn in there, there is plenty of space on Back Lane to park and then walk back round to the level crossing.
I’m quite sure I’ve spotted at least 2 Warrington Borough Transport buses there. I think one of them even has the destination of Wilderspool Causeway on it. Don’t know who owns them or anything about the people living there, but there does seem to be a lot of people living Ludlow who actually moved from Warrington, including Pete Postlethwaite used to live here.

Darren

05/05/15 – 11:54

MED 168

The attached picture of MED 168 was taken in September 2014 – from on the level crossing mentioned by Darren. As can be seen, there were some other vehicles on site – the white Foden coach being KMA 553, but registrations of the others could not be seen from the road.

Peter Delaney

05/05/15 – 11:56

The Foden PSVs were high quality fascinating vehicles. I’m interested in the present location of these two, as when my Dad returned injured from the horrors of The Somme in 1917 he was convalescent at Stokesay Court, Onibury – a mansion which had been given over to military hospital use. I visited the house a few years ago when there were financial difficulties, as with many such gems, but its use in the making of the film “Atonement” has apparently improved its fortunes which is pleasing to hear. Sorry to digress, but for warrington buses to end up there is quite a journey.

Chris Youhill

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/02/20 – 06:33

The gentleman at Onibury just loves Fodens and when the 1 of only 2 foden double deckers left came up for sale he had to buy it. The single deckers would have been scrapped if he had not saved them and restored them as they were virtually past repair. If you call in as I did when passing he doesn’t mind showing you round, he restores other vehicles as well but rarely rallies them, which is a pity.

Andy Dobson

06/02/20 – 05:50

Steve at Onibury had two half-cab foden coaches and made one good one out of them. Talented engineer.

Roger Burdett

Reading Corporation – Dennis Loline – GRD 576D – 76


Copyright Pete Davies

Reading Corporation
1966
Dennis Loline III
East Lancs H38/30F

Here is a Reading Corporation Dennis Loline III with an East Lancs H38/30F bodywork, and is seen arriving at Wisley Airfield for the “Cobham” Running Day on 4 April, 2004. The Loline, as most know already, was the Bristol Lodekka built under licence by Dennis of Guildford, and the Loline III with forward door makes an interesting comparison with the FLF version of the Lodekka.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

17/05/13 – 07:21

A beautiful picture of a beautiful vehicle. It has been said that arguably the best looking AEC Renowns are the East Lancs versions (particularly Leigh and West Bridgeford). This is the Dennis Loline equivalent – and equally good looking. The Reading livery helps to set it off.

David Oldfield

17/05/13 – 09:05

The forward entrance East Lancs bodied Loline III was the nearest the Loline got in looks to the FLF – if the upper deck emergency exit had been changed to a single bay the similarity would have been very close, with the visual advantage of a more balanced side window bay arrangement.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/05/13 – 09:06

Agreed on all points David – I just hope that Mr. Stenning doesn’t see the picture, or the poor soul will think that his life’s work has been in vain.

Chris Youhill

17/05/13 – 10:39

Well hasn’t it all been in vain, Chris. [If you take notice of the number of remarks concerning his modern liveries!]

David Oldfield

17/05/13 – 12:40

Thank you, gents, for your kind remarks!

Pete Davies

19/05/13 – 07:20

This vehicle was one of the last batch of eight Loline IIIs bought by Reading in December 1966 and January 1967. The first eight Lolines for Reading came in September 1962, and had rear axles and four speed gearboxes by Dennis. These were followed by ten more in July-September 1964, but these had Bristol rear axles and five speed gearboxes with the overdrive ratio blanked off, which limited top speed to a shade above 30 mph. The last eight, of which 76 above is a representative, were similarly engineered. Quite why Reading specified the Bristol transmission components, especially the five speed boxes which the Corporation then blanked off, is puzzling. At this time Aldershot and District were accepting the delivery of Lolines equipped with wholly Dennis transmissions, so the Reading choice of Bristol componentry must have been made on the grounds of cost. The point has been made before on this site that the Loline, and particularly the Mark III, was rather more than “a licence built Lodekka”. Dennis made several changes to the design, and all Lolines from the Mark I had a full air braking system, unlike the Bristol which stuck with air/hydraulic to the end. As one who has driven both Lolines and Lodekkas, I think that the Dennis was the nicer of the two types. Both Ian Thompson and Alan Murray-Rust who have first hand knowledge of these Reading Lolines in service have made insightful comments under the entry for North Western – Dennis Loline III – RDB 892.

Roger Cox

19/05/13 – 07:23

The Dennis Loline always lived in the shadow of the Bristol FLF in terms of sales numbers largely due to the radically different purchasing policies of the vehicles’ respective client base. Whereas the BTC companies, which were the only purchasers of the Lodekka allowed by legislation, standardised on a low-height design whether it was actually needed or not, the BET Group companies and municipalities only generally bought such vehicles where low bridges dictated a definite requirement. In those days before disabled access legislation no-one ever seemed to consider a major advantage of the Loline and indeed the other low-height designs of providing a low-height single step entrance. Had such legislation been in place in those days then the Loline could have had a very different history.
I agree that this is a superb picture of a fine vehicle in a classic municipal livery. It still looks good nearly 50 years on but that is the mark of pure quality.

Philip Halstead

20/05/13 – 09:05

Just realised—that’s me at the tiller and wife and daughter up aloft! From about 1955 onwards, as a new model popped up every few years and then disappeared from the market, you heard people predicting the final demise of Dennis as a busbuilder, yet here they are with highly successful products in 2013. Admittedly much changed, but the name lives on!
I’ve also got a very soft spot for East Lancs bodywork, so that Loline has it all.
Pity that one of the ’62 batch didn’t survive, but those then very saleable Gardner engines ensured that withdrawn 6LX-powered buses didn’t just moulder away as chicken sheds—to be discovered decades later by delighted enthusiasts—but got cut up for scrap.
Fine picture, Pete. Thanks.

Ian Thompson

20/05/13 – 16:54

Ian,
If you’d like a copy for posterity, the family archives, or whatever, I’m quite happy for Peter to forward it to you.

Pete Davies

22/05/13 – 09:41

Thanks for the very kind offer, Pete, which I’d be delighted to take up.

Ian Thompson

United Services – Dennis Loline Mk I – SOU 473


Copyright John Stringer

United Services
1958
Dennis Loline MkI 6LW
East Lancs. H37/31RD

One of a batch of 34 Lolines delivered to Aldershot & District in 1958 numbered 336-369 (SOU 445-477), SOU 473 was withdrawn by them in 1969. It was then bought by W. R. & P. Bingley of Kinsley, who along with Cooper’s of South Elmsall and Everett’s of South Kirkby traded under the name ‘United Services’. It is pictured here resting at Bingley’s Upton depot in April 1973.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

13/02/13 – 04:47

SOU 473_2

Here is a photograph of this bus when in service with its original owner, Aldershot and District. It is seen in Farnham Road bus station, Guildford in 1961. The Aldershot fleet was generally impeccably turned out, so that the tree damage to the front dome is surprising. The Loline I was a close copy of the Bristol LD Lodekka, but axles, clutch and gearbox were all of Dennis design. Unlike the Lodekka, the Loline always had a full air braking system. These Lolines were thoroughbreds to drive, better in every respect, in my estimation, to the Leyland PD2 and PD3, and the AEC Regent V machines that I had encountered at Halifax. Though equipped with the modestly powerful Gardner 6LW, which A&D rated at the full manufacturer’s setting, they were good performers, and, with a top speed touching 50 mph, quite fast for the time (1958) when they were introduced (and when the legal maximum speed for a PSV was 30 mph). The high quality East Lancs bodywork completed the specification of a supremely capable and reliable bus.

Roger Cox

13/02/13 – 04:50

Just between duties or withdrawn? Certainly not the pristine condition one normally associated with her original owner!

Pete Davies

13/02/13 – 14:43

I suppose that replacing a dented panel or wing to maintain standards of presentation was one thing, but straightening out a roof dome once battered by trees would be rather a big job – time consuming and therefore expensive, and the chances were that once done there was a distinct likely hood of it returning again with the same problem soon after.

John Stringer

15/02/13 – 12:06

Good to see these pictures of a superbly well-proportioned bus with, as Roger points out, first-rate innards to match. And if the 6LW was modestly-powered on paper, 112GHP (Gardner horsepower) was worth 125 of anyone else’s. Two of this batch fortunately survive: SOU 465, a regular attender at events, and SOU 456, still under restoration.
I prefer the Loline I radiator-grille shape to the later square-with-rounded-corners design.
I’ve got a Loline maintenance manual with sectional drawings of a bewildering variety of alternative gearboxes. Apparently they even offered a six-speed version, which I’m sure was never fitted to a production bus. I’ll post them here soon.

Ian Thompson

15/02/13 – 17:07

Ian, your extensive knowledge of, and fellow enthusiasm for Dennis machinery is very welcome on this site. I certainly never knew that a six speed option was available for the Loline. That would have given a 6LX powered bus an extraordinary performance. The generally accepted view is that the Loline was little more than a licence built Lodekka, but this is an over simplification, particularly in the case of the Loline III. I think I am right in believing that even the Loline I had a gearbox (the ‘V’ type?) that lowered the transmission line without the need for transfer gears as fitted to the Lodekka. The Loline transmission would have thus been more positive and efficient than the Bristol equivalent. The pre Hestair Dennis company had a high level of engineering expertise, but its commercial policies were very indecisive and often misguided. The firm nearly fell victim to a takeover by Seddon before Hestair became interested. Had that happened, or had Leyland made a move to gobble up the Guildford manufacturer, the outcome would surely have been oblivion. ADL may be a different animal from the Dennis of fond memory, and, alas, the superb fire engine business is no more, but it is the only significant bus chassis manufacturer now left in the UK.

Roger Cox

16/02/13 – 07:16

I think SOU 473 was bought by Everett’s in spring 1969, and later passed to Bingleys when Everett’s ceased to operate. I have no record of the takeover date or SOU’s withdrawal date, if anyone knows, please tell me! This was a superb bus to travel in, very speedy and much more spacious than any previous United Services vehicle. The rear door was air-powered, sliding forward into a pocket – when opened whilst decelerating for a stop, it crashed heavily onto the front of the pocket, no chance of dozing off despite the comfortable seats.

Roger Townend

16/02/13 – 07:17

I have a Loline sales brochure from about 1960 and this shows that the standard gearbox offering was the 5 speed V type. Interestingly a 4 speed SCG epicyclic was also offered but I have no knowledge of it ever being fitted. In 1967 Halifax took 5 Lolines with 6LX engines and a five speed overdrive epicyclic gearbox. The GM at the time, Geoffrey Hilditch, described them as having “a useful turn of speed”. I believe he meant that it went like the wind!

Paragon

16/02/13 – 10:15

Were these Halifax Lolines not the same ones which they sold to West Riding when they were only two to three years old.

They must have run out of wind rather quickly.

Andrew Beever

16/02/13 – 13:38

Andrew, I recall reading some years ago that the Halifax batch were bought for a specific purpose, namely a specialised route needing vehicles of this specification for the best performance. This, I believe, they did well. However, once the PTE came into existence, my memory is that the route or the perceived needs changed, and the batch ended up on local routes. They weren’t suited to this role at all! This meant that their early sale to West Riding was convenient for both PTE and W. Riding. I am only going on memories of what I have read, not local experience, but others may have more specific details. In the early days of Classic Bus magazine, there was a three-bus test drive including an AEC Renown (King Alfred), a Bristol Lodekka(Hants & Dorset) and a Dennis Loline (Aldershot & District. The drivers were expecting Lodekka or Renown to win out, but the Loline beat the others into the corner!

Michael Hampton

16/02/13 – 14:42

In 1962, on two occasions, I took a bus from Southsea to Milford (Surrey). I can’t recall the Southdown vehicle to/from Petersfield, but do recall the A&D Lolines north of Petersfield on the challenging A3 route. They were comfortable, quiet and performed very well.

Chris Hebbron

16/02/13 – 17:00

Remember that West Riding were in a pretty bad way with their Wulfrunians and acquired a lot of second hand Lodekkas to keep them going…so a few Lolines added a certain standardisation. …. the other story (SCT61) is that the Lolines were for the Calder Valley and when Tod came on board, even they couldn’t get in the newly integrated garage.

Joe

16/02/13 – 18:10

By their very nature, the Halifax Lolines were best suited to lengthy, high speed runs, which were not characteristic features of the local Halifax topography. Whilst they were suitable for the inter urban ‘B’ services such as the 43 to Huddersfield or the 48/49 Brighouse – Hebden Bridge, these busy routes were well within the capabilities of the PD2s, PD3s, Regent Vs and Fleetlines in the fleet. The Lolines migrated to the Meredith and Drew contracts where their remarkable road performance (GGH admits to these machines being capable of 55 mph plus) proved entirely suitable to the task, but, of necessity, a conductor had to be carried on what was essentially a coach service. When West Riding, desperate for Wulfrunian replacement stock, made an enticing offer, they were sold on in 1970. However, Geoff Hilditch, in his book “Steel Wheels and Rubber Tyres” (Vol 2) states that “this would not have happened had we then known of the Millwood (i.e,Todmorden) garage problem that would face us in 1971 They would have been ideal for the Halifax – Todmorden – Burnley service.” There was nothing wrong with the buses. They were just unsuited to much of the tortuous route system that was indigenous to the Halifax area.

Roger Cox

17/02/13 – 07:27

…..and, of course, the North Western Lolines – along with the Renowns – were for long distance routes rather than urban stop/start.

David Oldfield

17/02/13 – 07:28

A “cartoon-style” line-drawing of one of the Halifax Lolines was used as the basis for a recruitment poster during the early 1970s: “I’m blue because I have no driver” – featuring blue Loline with weeping eyes/headlights. This was painted onto a blank window panel in Crossfield Bus Station near the 76 (Bradford v Queensbury) stand. I remember, as my 6/7 year-old self, thinking why didn’t they picture a Regent/Titan/Fleetline instead of a “made-up” double-decker – of course by then (post Hebble-Halifax JOC merger) the Lolines had moved on, and I’d never noticed/come across them. But what made the artist/HPT choose one of their most un-typical buses? Other similar advertisements included one for the 68/X68 to Sheffield featuring one of the Seddon Pennine RU DPs, and one for private hire featuring – I think! – one of the ex-Timpsons Park Royal Royalist Reliances . . . I said “I think”, perhaps it was just a Panorama Elite.

Philip Rushworth

17/02/13 – 07:29

SOU 465

Ian mentions above that one of the two surviving Aldershot and District Loline I machines is SOU 465. Here is a picture of this bus taken on 25 June 1967 in Petersfield. It is operating the lengthy 24 route to Guildford on which Chris would have travelled to reach Milford. I, too frequently sampled this route and its Loline Mk.Is in the days before I acquired a PSV Licence. Later, as driver with A&D at Aldershot circa 1966-68, I did drive on the parallel route 6 between Aldershot and Petersfield (Steep village), though Loline IIIs had taken over by that time. Interestingly, the only joint operation into Aldershot was Route 12 to Reading, which was shared with Thames Valley. When an Lodekka suffered a defect or failure at the Hampshire end of the service, it was replaced by a Loline, and very often the Thames Valley driver was reluctant to hand it back again later in return for the repaired Lodekka. I genuinely cannot recall any instances of a Loline failing at the Reading end of the route though I expect this must have happened now and again. Aldershot & District had much higher engineering standards than Thames Valley.

Roger Cox

17/02/13 – 08:50

That’s a lovely photo which brings back lots of memories, Roger. I recognise the place well. Thx. It was a long route – the better part of 30 miles in total, hilly and twisting in places, all taken with panache. I worked in Guildford and had a soft spot for the old ‘All Aboard & Risk it’, as it was nicknamed! And an Aunt-in-Law was once a clippie with them during the war, around Woking.

Chris Hebbron

17/02/13 – 08:51

I think you may be right about engineering standards, Roger.

David Oldfield

17/02/13 – 12:23

Your mention of “I’m blue because I have no driver”,Phlip, reminded me of a quiz a couple of years ago on a blog I follow. I’ve found it here. I did badly! See HERE: //tinyurl.com/c97j9kf

Chris Hebbron

18/02/13 – 08:26

Roger’s comments about engineering standards at Thames Valley remind me of the set of pictures I have of a whole variety of other operators’ vehicles which had to be drafted into Reading to help out because of vehicles off the road, firstly in May and September 1973 (London Country RTs and some Royal Blue MWs) and then again in April 1974 and August/September 1974, when a variety of buses came from Ensign Bus, (ex Portsmouth, Swindon, S&M of Hadleigh, LT) together with a couple of Reliances and a couple of Lolines from Reading Transport. It appears that the merger with A&D didn’t result in a migration of engineering standards to Reading!

Alan Murray-Rust

18/02/13 – 10:57

It may have been coincidence, or simply made the situation worse: it was that period in the early seventies which was also the period of (British) Leyland’s worst “hour” – not only take it or leave it but you can’t get it (spares) and we won’t make/supply it (Bristol RE). Thames Valley were not the only operator in that position. Leyland disease – oh I’d forgotten late deliveries as well – certainly affected Sheffield/SYPTE and others as well.

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

20/02/13 – 05:57

Those six Halifax Lolines may have contributed to Dennis’ survival as a manufacturer today (even if in a different form). Mr GGH (as he is referred to above) was impressed by his contacts with Dennis, and on moving to Leicester a few years later, encouraged Dennis to develop the Dominator double-decker as an antidote to the “leylandisation” of the British bus manufacturing industry. Dennis had only dabbled in the bus market from c. 1950 until then, but from the mid/late 1970s developed new ranges to suit the new challenges. And the rest, as they say, is history. I guess “Mr GGH” was embarking on a wider plan than he realised, thus making it still possible to buy a British-made bus today.

Michael Hampton

20/02/13 – 09:35

In 1963 the magazine Commercial Motor published the results of a road test of 447, an Aldershot and District Mk3 Loline. It produced the best fuel consumption figures of any double decker tested by the magazine since the Second World War.
Fully laden with the equivalent of 68 passengers the testers obtained 12.75 mpg at two stops per mile and 9.25 mpg at six stops per mile. The fleet average for A&D Lolines at that time was 13.5 mpg.
One of the testers was the well known transport author Alan Townsin and he describes travelling on an undulating stretch of the A3 at an average speed of 32.4 mph and obtaining 15.7 mpg. He gives the top speed at about 47mph.
He describes all controls as “very satisfying” and had that “indefinable feel of a thoroughbred vehicle”
Praise indeed.

I think it is Paragon

21/02/13 – 06:22

I drove Loline Is and IIIs from Aldershot Depot in 1966-68, after which I returned to the administrative side of the bus industry. Without doubt, the Loline was a superb bus, predictable, stable and refined. The A&D Loline III was rather livelier than the Mark I by virtue of the lighter bodywork by Alexander or Weymann, and its Dennis gearbox had a modified gate that emulated the Reliance pattern, making the engagement of overdrive rather simpler. Those fuel economy figures are way beyond the reach of “modern” buses, and, I suspect, the reliability statistics for today’s machinery are equally inferior. Progress? What progress?

Roger Cox

Aldershot and District – Dennis Lance K4 – LOU 40 – 212


Copyright Roger Cox

Aldershot and District Traction Company 
1953
Dennis Lance K4
East Lancs L28/28R

This picture was taken in Woodbridge Road, Guildford, about 1961, and shows one of the 32 “tin fronted” Dennis Lance K4 buses unique to the Aldershot and District Traction Company. The first 20 of these had East Lancs L28/28 bodywork of the type shown, and the final 12 were bodied by Weymann with a version of the Orion, again seating 56 with 28 on each deck. The Gardner 5LW engines in these buses were removed from withdrawn Lancets of 1940 vintage, but were rebuilt and updated to the latest specification to virtually new standard. As usual with A&D buses, these vehicles had five speed gearboxes. I never drove one of these, but I understand that, with their slow revving (1700 rpm) 94 bhp engines they were less than lively, and not popular with the Aldershot and District driving staff, who christened them “Lulus” from their registration letters. The motorcycle and sidecar combination overtaking the bus is entirely characteristic of those times and something that is never seen today. I cannot identify the make of motorbike, but it is certainly something of a veteran itself as it has girder type front forks.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

26/06/11 – 11:32

The same nickname was given by Samuel Ledgard staff to ex London RT LLU 803 – her thunder was somewhat stolen though by the later arrival of some RTLs with the same “Christian name.”
Despite the cumbersome and leisurely progress of the A & D Dennis Lance I have to say that it is an extremely attractive vehicle indeed – the characterful destination display and the beautiful livery of that operator being the icing on the cake.

Chris Youhill

26/06/11 – 19:59

Aldershot and District always had a small engine policy, and it is difficult to understand why the Lance K4 should have been singled out by certain staff for a modest performance. The pre war Lances with the high set radiator style (as on the Lancet II and III) were delivered with Dennis four cylinder sixteen valve O4 engines of 6.5 litres giving 82 bhp. Most of these early Lances were later rebodied and refitted with 5LW engines, and the wartime Guy Arabs also had the 5LW powerplant. The first postwar ‘deckers were Lance K3s with the Dennis O6 of 100 bhp, and these were lively, smooth running buses, and the following K4s of the type shown above must have seemed much more sedate by comparison. Then came Lolines powered by the 6LW engine, and it is probable that, by a certain point in time and within the experience of some drivers, the Lance K4s were the only double deck buses in the fleet still using the 5LW. My experience of the K4 as a passenger indicated that its road performance was fully up to the general standard of the time.

Roger Cox

27/06/11 – 11:48

Happily, Tim Stubbs and Malcolm Spalding rescued sister ship A&D K4 220 some years ago, and it has been a regular at running days and other events for at least seventeen years. I’ve had the very good fortune to be on the driving rota, and it really a most characterful bus, with the reassuring thump of the 5LW and the unique 5-spd gearbox, with 1st, 2nd and 3rd sliding (not constant)mesh and preselective overdrive. The cab is not a model of comfort or convenience, but the steering is a joy. Brakes are vacuum over hydraulic, and seem to need frequent adjustment but are wonderfully progressive in action.
Seating is 28 on each deck. On top, counting from the front, the seats are for 4, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3 and 3. Even on a 27-long body eight rows upstairs was still less common than seven on mid-fifties lowbridge bodies but—as on contemporary Roe lowbridge products—the back seat upstairs is set as far back as it can be without compromising staircase headroom, so there’s plenty of knee room between seats.
She’s admittedly slow in hilly country, but will do 48mph on the flat and on a well-chosen route puts the miles behind her surprising quickly.
Tim’s K3 of 1950, with the Dennis O6 engine, is 6″ narrower and a foot shorter but is actually slightly heavier than the K4. Unlike the 5LW, the amazingly smooth O6 is a spinner, not a slogger. The difference in engine gives the two otherwise very similar vehicles a totally different character. The 5LW demands a well-adjusted clutch-stop, but the lighter flywheel of the O6 makes it unnecessary for upward changes—except 1st to 2nd on hills.
These two vehicles are wonderful survivals, and it’s a pity that none of the lightweight (and apparently very lively) Weymann Orion-bodied K4s survived. When I first saw one at Reading Station the pop-rivets put me off. How could my schoolboy judgment have been so flawed!
There should be Dennis delights at Alton Running Day, Hampshire, this July the 17th, and the big event is 100 years of Aldershot&District at Farnborough, Hants, Sunday May the 27th 2012.

Ian Thompson

28/06/11 – 06:24

Ian, I lived in Farnborough, Hants, for nine years from the mid sixties, by which time the Loline reigned supreme in the A&D double deck fleet, and I had a spell at Aldershot depot as a driver before returning to the admin side of the bus industry at Reigate. Although I have travelled as a passenger on the A&D K3 and K4 Lances, and my knowledge of Dennis buses goes right back to 1946 to 1949 when, as a child, I used to travel with my mother on the pre war O4 engined East Kent Lancet IIs between Faversham and Herne Bay, I have never driven a Lance or a Lancet. I have always had a strong regard for traditional Dennis machines, and Dennis were the only British manufacturer to put oil engines with four valves per cylinder into quantity production. Crossley made a wartime prototype “four valver” that performed well, but when Saurer asked for a royalty or licence fee for the use of its combustion chamber design, Crossley hastily redesigned the engine as a “two valver” with catastrophic consequences for reliability and performance. I am envious your driving sessions in these old Dennis buses, and it is wonderful to see them in preservation. My own short lived foray into the preservation scene was as part of a group that saved the Dennis Ace YD 9533. The costs of restoration became prohibitive, and we sold it on, and it is now thankfully a regular on the rally scene. The Ace was certainly an interesting machine to drive with its central accelerator pedal! I now live in East Anglia, but I will certainly bear in mind next year’s Aldershot and District centenary

Roger Cox

28/06/11 – 11:38

Roger, I’m equally envious of your youthful rides on 04-engined Lancets. From what I’ve heard, they were livelier than one might expect from only 6.5 litres. I believe one is preserved and I very much hope one day to have a ride on it. I used to think the days of four-cylinder engines powering full-size buses were behind us, but the new Alexander-Dennis diesel-electrics in Reading, Oxford and Manchester seem to manage very nicely with their little fours.
When I worked at Smiths in Reading there were still 04 engine bits in the workshop, although the last 04s were probably off the road by 1960.
The only Ace I’ve ever ridden on in genuine service took me from Yarmouth to Freshwater, Isle of Wight, but the sound was all wrong as it had a Bedford OB engine and gearbox.
I can see why Crossley had for legal reasons to hurriedly redesign the Saurer combustion chamber, but I wonder why at the same time they abandoned the 4-valve head? That surely wouldn’t have infringed any patents.
The Reading downdraught-engined Crossley deckers were certainly slow, with their UW of 8.3.1, and they tended, oddly, to be used on the hillier routes, but they lasted for 18 years, so the workshop must have got a feel for keeping them happy.

Ian Thompson

29/06/11 – 06:52

Ian, your comments on Dennis and Crossley machines has prompted me to add a few more. My memories as a four to seven year old might now be optimistically tinged with nostalgia, but I do recall the curious muffled drumming sound of the Dennis O4 engines, very different from the local Maidstone and District Tigers (petrol and diesel), but the progress was very smooth and lively. I loved those old Dennis Lancets, and the high mounted radiator offset to the nearside denoted a truly independently minded manufacturer. The later Lancet III was surely one of the finest vehicles of its time.
I have some b/w pictures of three Smiths of Reading Lancets that brought a private party to Hampton Court in 1961. I will send them to the site in due course.
Still with Reading, I have a few pictures of that operator’s all Crossley DD42/8 machines which, as you say, were fitted with the downdraught engine that represented AEC’s attempt to mitigate the abysmal characteristics of the HOE7. I took the pictures in 1967 by which time the Dennis Loline reigned supreme in the double deck fleet. Having moved to the Gosport area when I was nine years old, I frequently saw the Portsmouth Crossleys in service, but I never travelled on a bus of this make until 1958, by which time I was living in the Croydon area. This was the year of the seven week London bus strike, and an outfit grandiosely calling itself “The People’s League for the Defence of Freedom” obtained permission to run some routes during the stoppage. One of these was route 2 between Croydon and New Addington, and two of the four buses allocated were ex Lancaster Corporation all Crossley SD42 (the others were an ex Crosville TD7 and an ex Lytham St Annes CWA6). Admittedly the Crossleys were 11 years old by then, and always well loaded, but I was amazed by the truly mediocre hill climbing performance of these machines. I have a picture of HTC 614 at New Addington taken with my trusty Brownie 127, and will send it in sometime.

Roger Cox

29/06/11 – 06:58

The strange thing about the Crossley HOE engine was that they never cured, or bothered to cure, the breathing problems that became apparent with the conversion to two-valves per cylinder. Yet, when AEC took them over, the problem was sorted out quite quickly!

Chris Hebbron

29/06/11 – 19:41

Chris, judging by the comprehensive “Crossley” book by Eyre, Heaps and Townsin, the Crossley Motors company did not take kindly to external criticism, and any that was forthcoming merely served to strengthen the firm’s intransigence, a very curious attitude to adopt in a fiercely commercial environment. Thus, not only did it take no meaningful action to solve the shortcomings of the HOE7, but it appeared to resent the AEC solution that appeared as the downdraught engine, even continuing to supply unmodified HOE7 engines in new buses. A similar cussedness was displayed in respect of the steering geometry on all Crossley buses. A simple readjustment in design would have cured the exceptionally heavy steering characteristics, that, in the case of the three axled “Dominion” trolleybuses, bordered on the impossible, but Crossley would not shift its position. No wonder AEC got fed up.

Roger Cox

30/06/11 – 05:33

What amazes me about Crossley is the difference in attitude between their chassis and body departments. Whereas the chassis people stuck stubbornly to their own ideas come what may, their first standard postwar body was designed not by Crossley but by Manchester Corporation. The special Manchester features – curves, waistrail steps and cantilever platform – quickly became optional, and even the first Liverpool bodies were actually the de-Manchestered Manc design reworked as a four-bay body with a flat front, as required by the Liverpool spec. I don’t think Crossley ever designed a double-deck body from scratch at all, although their postwar framing system was all their own.

Peter Williamson

01/07/11 – 05:27

Thank you Roger and Peter, for mentioning the diverse attitude of the two parts of Crossley, one self-serving and the other accommodating towards its customers. As we know, a chain is only as good as its weakest link!

Chris Hebbron

03/07/11 – 19:54

Talking about Track routes to this day the Arriva service 268 Dewsbury- Bradford service is still referred as the Track although in tramway days the service only went as far as Moorend as did service G in bus days.The service 281 Bradford to Thornhill is always referred as The Donkey for obvious reasons.

Philip Carlton

30/04/12 – 07:53

Roger, in his copy, records that these vehicles had five-speed gearboxes, but I seem to recall that they had four-speed boxes with overdrive. The driver would move the lever in a semi-circular way to gain overdrive. I only travelled on them from Woking to St. Peter’s Hospital, Ottershaw, a very flat route, so was never able to judge their hill-climbing capabilities. When living in Portsmouth, I did travel on the Petersfield – Guildford route as far as Milford on a couple of occasions, but that was on a Loline. I imagine that the Lances would also have been on that challenging route over the North Downs and I’d have loved to have ridden on them up there!
A childhood delight was going on holiday, around 1950, from Kingston – Southsea on a duplicate Southdown Leyland Cub coach. But I digress!

Chris Hebbron

30/04/12 – 09:12

Oh, there you go – as Chris Youhill has said elsewhere, that’s the fun of this site. Digress away. After the pathetic failure that was yesterday’s Cobham/Wisley event, we may only be left with our digressions!

David Oldfield

01/05/12 – 06:48

Well, the weather must have been appalling, if Gloucester was anything to go by, but were there other problems, too, David?

Chris Hebbron

01/05/12 – 06:50

Chris, the Dennis gearbox was an overdrive unit, giving five gears in all. Overdrive was a preselective gear designed using Maybach principles. To engage from fourth, the gear lever was moved at any time, as with a conventional preselector, to the left and forward, and actual engagement occurred when the accelerator was released to allow the revs to die. When the accelerator was pressed again, fifth gear was already engaged. To change down, the lever was moved back to the fourth position, and engagement occurred when the accelerator was released and then pressed again to raise the revs for the fourth ratio. Sadly, I have never driven a Dennis with such a gearbox, though I have travelled many miles as a passenger on Lances and Lancets so equipped. Ian T is the expert when it comes to practical experience.

Roger Cox

01/05/12 – 06:51

Is that Arthur and Olive from On the Buses just passing?

Philip Carlton

01/05/12 – 19:27

We were discussing this on Sunday, Chris, saying that the organisers might use the weather as an excuse. The weather was atrocious – but that wasn’t the problem. Most of the “runs” were a circuit of the airfield – not a decent run on proper roads. The 499 to/from Weybridge Station was supposed to be half modern low-floor vehicles – it was even worse. More of them, supplemented by re-engined RMs. I have friends “high” in the industry who said after Dunsfold, and then this, they will no longer be supporting it. Likewise people in the business who are enthusiasts who brought their own vehicles from wide and far. We were charged £10 to enter, get soaked and find nothing to entertain us – and a further £2 for the programme. Sorry you got me going Chris, but it wasn’t the weather and, despite living up the hill, it won’t be in my diary next year.
Rant over, now let’s get on with friendly sharing of expertise and experience.

David Oldfield

Aldershot & District – Dennis Lance – GOU 845 – 145

GOU 845

Aldershot & District Traction Co
1950
Dennis Lance K3
East Lancs L25/26R

Aldershot & District Dennis K3 fleet number 145 seen above at Alton Station, Hants celebrates its 50th year in preservation with Tim Stubbs by running an hourly service between Hindhead (145’s home garage) and Haslemere, Surrey, this coming Saturday, July 19.
First departures are from Haslemere Station at 10:35am and from Hindhead National Trust Car Park at 11:05. Last departures are from Haslemere Stn at 4:35 and Hindhead at 5:05 for the full round trip, and 5:35 from Haslemere at 5:35 for Hindhead, Farnham and Alton.
This is a small-scale event originally planned for friends associated over the years with 145’s preservation and running, so Tim asks me to point out that capacity may be limited, but 145 and 220 (Dennis K4) will be running trips the next day (Sunday July 20) at the Alton Running Day, Anstey Park, with frequent departures from Alton Station. Both of these deckers are unique survivals. 145 has a Dennis O6 engine (7.58 litres), vacuum brakes and Dennis overdrive gearbox; 220, dating from 1954, has a 1939 Gardner 5LW engine, vacuum-over-hydraulic brakes and Dennis o/d gearbox.
The very different engines give them totally different characters.
145 is also unusual in having 8 rows of seats upstairs, each seating 3 except for a 4-seater at the front. 220 (East Lancs L28/28R) is a foot longer and 6″ wider, also with 8 rows aloft, arranged as alternating 3s and 4s.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Thompson

19/07/14 – 08:11

Every month, for ten years, from the mid ’50’s, I used to get one of these buses from Woking Station to Botley’s Park Hospital at Ottershaw, then back: not a long journey, about 6 miles/30mins. How I looked forward to riding on them – their unique engine sound and that ‘U’ turn on the gear lever when the driver engaged overdrive.
One distinctive feature of them was the unusually large width between the headlights, the same size and height, too.
Thank goodness one has survived, looking so very kempt, too!

Chris Hebbron

19/07/14 – 08:12

Lovely to see an unfamiliar face even if it looks like a cousin of a Daimler CV. How does 220 end up with a 5LW, 25 years its senior? Dennis must be the great survivor, with an unfailing eye for a niche and a willingness to change, even if this includes ownership… but AEC, Leyland, Bristol, Guy, Daimler… where are you when we need you?

Joe

20/07/14 – 07:11

Joe. All the makes you mention have one thing in common –
Donald Stokes. First we gave him a knighthood then a peerage. That’s what we do in this country- reward incompetence.

Paragon

20/07/14 – 07:30

GOU 845_2

Here is a rear view of the vehicle: Copyright John G. Lidstone

Chris Hebbron

20/07/14 – 15:23

Sir Donald Stokes (knighted before the merger) was probably not the sharpest tool in the box for someone who was a company leader, although he was a good salesman, but taking over the newly-enforced merger of the ‘batty’ BMC, which should have gone into bankruptcy, was a poison chalice for anyone. Definitely a case of being between and rock and a hard place!! This was an era of strikes and mayhem at the best of times, mainly centred in the Midlands, with strong unions with leaders and shop stewards, like ‘Red’ Robbo, with Communist leanings, a Labour government which was always interfering with the running of the company, but never grasped the nettle of bringing in union democracy (despite Barbara Castle trying) adding more chaos to the brew! His peerage, in my view, WAS debatable.

Chris Hebbron

21/07/14 – 07:20

Joe. The Gardner engines came from 1939/40 Lances and Lancets when they were taken out of service. The engines were overhauled and incorporated Gardner approved updates to increase the BHP.
Today this is called recycling!

Paragon

22/06/15 – 15:13

Is it my imagination or is the rear destination blind of GOU 845 offset to the nearside? If so, was this normal practice on Aldershot and District or just this batch of vehicles?

Larry B

23/06/15 – 06:43

The offset is also present on LOU 48, which is a K4. See www.sct61.org.uk/ad220a  GAA 628 is also shown offset on the sct site but without type ID. Haven’t found any other rear views of Lances with other companies to compare

John Lomas

23/06/15 – 06:48

They would appear to be offset as you say. I would suspect the reason for this was to keep the housing for the mechanism clear of the staircase. I think the final design of Leyland body had “bulging” rear number displays for the same reason. See this link

David Beilby

09/05/17 – 07:47

Can anyone remember an Aldershot & District single decker bus that ran from Midhurst to Bognor Regis via Chichester. I seem to remember it ran on Chichester’s Market Day (Wednesday)

David Strickland

09/05/17 – 17:05

Aldershot & District route 19A was a summer service that ran four times a day beyond Midhurst, the normal terminus of the 19, onwards to Chichester and Bognor.

Roger Cox

Bury Corporation – Daimler Fleetline – AEN 835C – 135

Bury Corporation - Daimler Fleetline - AEN 835C - 135

Bury Corporation
1965
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
East Lancs H43/31F

In 1965 when this shot was taken there was only two rear engined double deck vehicles the Daimler Fleetline and the Leyland Atlantean. The Fleetline had one big advantage over the early Atlanteans in that it had a flat central gangway downstairs and the step up from the ground to entrance floor level was only 1 foot. The advantage of the easy access and high seating capacity meant that the Fleetline became a very popular vehicle with municipal and company operators alike.
The first Fleetlines had the Daimler CD6 8.6 litre six cylinder engine but has soon as it went into serious production it was supplied with the Gardner 6LX 10.45 litre engine as standard with an option of the Gardner 6LW 8.4 litre both were six cylinder diesels.  The gearbox was of the four speed Daimatic direct selection epicyclic type and the braking system was air pressure. As with all Daimler vehicles the coding is fairly straight forward the “R” stands for rear engine and the “G” stands for the Gardner engine, I wish I knew what the “C” stood for as it precedes most Daimler codes “CWG” and “CVG” for example my guess is “Chassis” but if anybody knows better or has a good idea please please leave a comment.

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

I think the “C” could stand for “Coventry”
It came from the dark recesses of my mind. What happened when the Fleetline moved from Coventry to Leyland? It ceased to be CRG/L and became FE. So unsubstantiated, but a reasonable guess – unless anyone else knows better.
D Oldfield

I think the “C” could stand for “Commercial”
As the company at the time was called Daimler Commercial Vehicles and traded separate to the passenger car business.

T J Haigh

The ‘C’ chassis prefix did stand for Commercial vehicle, as Daimler also made private cars. Sadly this tradition ended when Leyland in its infinite wisdom moved Daimler bus production to Leyland. These chassis were designated ‘FE’, in line with Leyland’s then practice of using the first and last letters of model names as chassis designations (eg: ON OlympiaN; TN TitaN; NL NationaL; LX LynX).

Brendan Smith

30/01/12 – 11:11

The debate goes on about how successful the RMF would have been had it gone into full scale production, but at Northern’s Percy Main depot we had both Atlanteans and Fleetlines, and for my money the Fleetline was a far superior vehicle, ‘perhaps that’s why it was killed off when Daimler became part of British Leyland’ All ours had the Gardner 6LW, the earlier ones were MCW bodied but my favourites were the later Alexander bodied vehicles, most of them were transferred to East Yorkshire when NBC came about.

Ronnie Hoye

28/09/12 – 07:49

This style of East Lancs body for rear engined double deckers only appeared on this batch for Bury and an almost contemporaneous batch of Fleetlines for Coventry.
They were well proportioned vehicles as can be seen here

Phil Blinkhorn

28/09/12 – 14:13

…..and three batches of PDR1/2s for Sheffield with Neepsend bodies…..

David Oldfield

28/09/12 – 14:15

Phil, Warrington also had Fleetlines with this style of East Lancs bodywork Atlanteans to the same design but built in Sheffield by Neepsend were bought by the corporation. Both the Fleetlines and Atlanteans dated from 1965-1966. An example of the Warrington Fleetlines appears at this link.

Chris Hough

28/09/12 – 18:02

David/Chris,
You are right about the Neepsend bodies for Sheffield and Warrington. I managed to eliminate part of my script after typing in the link to the Coventry photo and didn’t notice until I just read your replies.
If you go back to my original post, it would have continued:
“The photo shows Coventry 22 – but though the design is the same (in all but detail) the body is by Neepsend and is one of a batch where East Lancs produced 9 and Neepsend 13 and Coventry split delivery of chassis in a staggered way between the two plants (see Peter Gould’s list for Coventry 1966). Sheffield received vehicles of this design from Neepsend as well and, strangely, Warrington also received Neepsend produced vehicles. Is this a case of congestion at East Lancs or was this really designed to be built in Sheffield?”

Phil Blinkhorn

29/09/12 – 18:06

Can somebody clarify the relationship between East Lancs and Neepsend. Did East Lancs buy Neepsend to gain additional capacity? if so it seems to have been a bit of waste of time as – to my recollection – Neepsend didn’t last all that long as a body builder . . . which raises the question, what became of them? And what were Neepsend doing before they started assembling East Lancs bodies? – would general metalwork fabrication be a good guess?

Philip Rushworth

30/09/12 – 07:47

The entire share capital of East Lancashire Coachbuilders Ltd was bought by Cravens Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd of Sheffield in 1964. Cravens itself was a subsidiary of the John Brown group of Clydebank, though the founder, John Brown, was himself born in Sheffield in 1816. Although it had made tentative forays into the bus building business between the wars, Cravens was by then primarily a constructor of railway rolling stock. Because the East Lancs premises in Blackburn were of constricted size, Cravens set up a subsidiary in the Neepsend area of Sheffield to increase the productive capacity of the bus bodybuilding side of the business. Neepsend built bodies to East Lancs designs from 1964 before closing completely in 1968.

Roger Cox

30/09/12 – 07:48

There is a deal of confusion on a great number of sites regarding just who were Neepsend and what they did.
It seems that the long established Sheffield firm of Cravens, which over the years produced trams, railway carriages and bus bodies bought East Lancs around 1960.
They set up Neepsend on Penistone Rd, away from their main site, at about the same time initially, as I understand it, as an overflow site (some local forums say that some BRS “Noddy” vans were built there but these were all supposed to have been built by Star Bodies, the BRS in house builder).
There are reports on some local Sheffield forums regarding a building collapse at the property damaging some vans in production.

Phil Blinkhorn

30/09/12 – 07:49

At the time both East Lancs and the former Craven plant in Sheffield were owned by John Brown engineering The company decided to use the Sheffield capacity to build bodies to East Lancs design.

Chris Hough

30/09/12 – 07:50

In 1964 the John Brown Engineering Group bought out the road vehicle body building part of Cravens – the railway part went to Metro-Cammell – and recommenced bus building in Sheffield at Neepsend as an overflow to their newly acquired East Lancs operation.
I was a regular visitor on business to the Blackburn operation up to and beyond the fire. The whole place was cramped and would have horrified a modern health and safety inspector.
If my memory is right there was an extension completed well before the fire which probably meant the demise of Neepsend, though the clutter remained.

Phil Blinkhorn

30/09/12 – 07:51

Further to my last comment Cravens actually bought a stake in East Lancs rather than the other way round in an effort to get back into bus building. This was achieved by a purchase of shares from the bank which was acting as executor of the will of one of the company founders. However the size of the factory and poor quality killed the project off by 1968.

Chris Hough

30/09/12 – 10:37

I have a hazy memory that the Neepsend factory was purpose built, because it had partly “glazed” doors on to Penistone Road through which the skeletons of buses could be seen. It always seemed a bit of a mystery why this was there, then.

Joe

18/01/18 – 05:25

I rode on LEN 101 ( Lenny ) many times when it was brand new at Bury, Ride like a bouncy castle , Drivers got sea sick & the cab was small & overheated being next to the engine, Plagued with mechanical faults, particularly the brakes, It was used sparingly & was on the Bury – Walmersley (37) run, so it wasn’t too far away when it broke down i’m told, A good ride downstairs, but not upstairs, We were told it was bought from the bus show, An untested prototype ?? Seems there were many variations of it,

Ian S

14/11/19 – 05:42

An ex Bury driver I used to know said that that Wulfrunian was the worst bus he ever drove in his 19 years on the buses, through Bury Corporation, Selnec and GMT.
Others he didn’t like were two 36 foot East Lancs bodied Leyland Leopards which had been new to Bolton and were transferred to Bury after Selnec took over, 6054/5.

David Pomfret

Widnes Corporation – Daimler CWA6 – FTF 207 – 59


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Widnes Corporation
1945
Daimler CWA6
Duple UL55R – East Lancs L27/28R 1955

This photo was sent to me by Richard Mercer after he had seen the posting of the London Transport Daimler D1 which also had a Duple body, but as Richard points out this one is more rounded with softer edges and not so angular as the LT one.  As there is only one year between this vehicle and the LT one it leads to the question was this bus rebodied before this shot was taken, and if it was, is it possible that it was done by East Lancs. What I like about it is the very shapely cab door, side window and windscreen the driver had good visibility from that cab. Richard has fond memories of this bus which was photographed in St Pauls Road Widnes as it was his school bus in the 1950,s. The bus was withdrawn in 1967 and went to a dealer in Wombwell South Yorkshire I do not know if it had a life after that, if you know, let me know.

Photograph and information contributed by Richard Mercer

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

12/06/11 – 10:41

The asymmetrical upper deck window arrangement was not as may be thought a simple repair job but the standard adopted by Widnes for all its new double deck deliveries until the switch to saloons in the nineteen sixties.

Chris Hough

12/06/11 – 11:27

This looks like an East Lancs body to me, and this is borne out by another picture of this bus on the Omnicolour Bussslides website. East Lancs apparently managed to convince the authorities that it could not adopt the severe austerity style of construction specified for the standard Utility bodywork without disrupting production, and its wartime bodies were built to the usual East Lancs appearance, though one imagines that the general embargo on the use of lightweight alloys and other materials must have applied. It is possible, therefore, that the body shown is original. However, the neat, well proportioned lines of the body on this Widnes bus certainly looks like an East Lancs product of the 1950s to me.

Roger Cox

13/06/11 – 07:46

I am no expert on these matters but it definitely looks like a rebody to me. The radius corner flush mounted side windows and sliding ventilators don’t look like those from a utility body and the front and rear domes are too rounded. It does have an East Lancs look about it though.

Ian Wild

13/06/11 – 07:48

FTF 207 was indeed rebodied by E/Lancs with this lowbridge body in 1955. Several Daimlers from the same batch and and also the 1943 batch received E/Lancs highbridge bodies around the same period.
My information is taken from the 1965 edition of Ian Allan British Bus Fleets book 6, Lancashire Municipal fleets.

Eric

13/06/11 – 07:51

Yes indeed. BBF6 has this as rebodied by East Lancs in 1955. However, it is shown as L55R rather than H55R, with FTF 208 rebodied at the same time as H60R.

Peter Williamson

13/06/11 – 10:41

As a stranger to the area and the operator I can’t possibly comment on the accuracy of the fleet lists, but unless its an optical illusion it certainly looks like a highbridge body. It is an extremely handsome vehicle – however tall it is !!

Chris Youhill

13/06/11 – 10:32

If you look at the handrail running alongside the upperdeck off side windows this confirms that it is a sunken gangway lowbridge body and the roofline is much flatter than the highbridge version.
My home town of Huddersfield had two batches of Regent III’s in 1954/5 with identical lowbridge bodies to this one. They also had a batch of highbridges in 1955 with a much more rounded roof profile. Leigh Corporation also had a batch of lowbridge Regent III’s around the same time and there is a photo of one of these in the 1965 BBF6

Eric

There is a shot of a Leigh Regent here and a Huddersfield one here.

Peter

13/06/11 – 12:11

I’ve just had a look at the photo of the Leigh one and whilst it is of the same general style as the Widnes/Huddersfield bodies I have noticed that the windows are not as flush as in the newer bodies and the radius corners of the pillars are slightly more angular. So the Leigh bodies are to the earlier design of about 1951. Again, Huddersfield had a batch each of highbridge and lowbridge bodies to this design delivered in 1951/2 the highbridges being 170-5 (FVH 170-5) of 1951 and the lowbridges 226-31 (GCX 26-31) of 1952. The also had a batch of highbridges delivered in 1950, 163-9 (EVH 563-9) but these bodies were of a totally different style altogether. So perhaps this shows that East Lancs were “on the ball” when it came to body design and updating.

Eric

14/06/11 – 08:23

Another good way of telling that it’s lowbridge is the gutter moulding above the lower saloon. This dips down behind the cab and then up again at the rear bulkhead and is in line with the floor. The drainage from the upper saloon floor would be behind that moulding.

David Beilby

15/06/11 – 07:09

I found this very confusing at first. I’ve never seen a picture of this before and I was initially unable to decide between Duple or East Lancs but it clearly is the latter as has now been proven. I think the confusion can be explained through the links posted by Peter W, this vehicle is obviously 7ft 6in wide, which gives the impression of extra height although it is lowbridge and dissembles the East Lancs look to a degree. The Leigh and Huddersfield vehicles are clearly 8ft wide and look more as you expect East Lancs to look for the period.
How nice to read that it achieved 22 years service!

Chris Barker

15/06/2011 15:55

Perhaps the missing push out ventilator on the off side upperdeck front window makes some people question if it is an East Lancs body and I think it does detracts slightly from what is an otherwise classic design of the period.

Eric

16/06/11 – 09:20

East Lancs bodied the majority of Widnes fleet in post war years a batch of East Lancs bodied PD2s which were to prove Widnes last deckers all had the winking eye upper deck treatment East Lancs even bodied a rather bizarre coach for Widnes in the sixties They switched to Nationals and later the Lynx when these became available

Chris Hough

Just dug out my very well thumbed BBF No 6 Lancashire – dated 1960 (Price 3/6d) and 59 was definitely East Lancs L57R rebodied in 1955 on the original CWA6 utility chassis. Some of this batch were CWD6 and some retained their utility bodies and were never rebodied at all. I remember seeing a utility bodied example in St Helens in the early 1960’s probably 1961/2 from memory.
For the record if anybody is interested according to this issue of BBF6 (and they were normally pretty accurate in those days) the details of the batch still in stock at 1960 are:-
49/51/53/60 – East Lancs H60R rebodied 1955
54 Northern Counties UH56R
55/56/57 Duple UH56R
58 Duple UL55R
59 East Lancs L57R rebodied 1955
So 59 was the only lowbridge East Lancs rebody.
I have them all underlined as being ‘copped’ apart from 54 which I have crossed out so it must have been an early withdrawal.
I agree that the single front ventilator which was a Widnes trait made the buses look a bit ‘botched’ and detracted from what otherwise was a tidy fleet. I presume the logic was that passengers wanting the fresh air treatment could choose to sit on the nearside while those of a less robust disposition could take to offside!
I remember a spotting trip to Widnes in 1962 when I copped these buses and at that time the new Widnes-Runcorn bridge had not long been open. We took a walk over it and the old Transporter Bridge was in the process of being dismantled. I regret that I never saw it in operation.
It was only after the opening of the new bridge that Widnes buses ventured over to Runcorn and previously terminated on the Lancashire side of the river to allow passengers for Runcorn to alight and go as foot passengers on the Transporter.
The bus drop-off point and the old Transporter Power Building is still in place at the end of a side street of terraced houses. The rest was all demolished.

Philip Halstead

21/08/15 – 06:02

58 and 59 were the only two in the fleet with the side gangway upstairs (handrail visible on 59), the seats being four in line on the nearside. 58 was a more decrepit unit so was probably in original form? My grandmother would never travel on upper decks as smoking was allowed, hence the ventilators. Downstairs she would try to avoid the offside seats on these two as headroom was restricted because of the sunken gangway upstairs. I witnessed many a cracked skull.

Kenneth Aaron

06/09/17 – 06:28

3 that I know of, 49, 51 and 60, had Leyland bodies in the mid 1950’s

Richard Mercer

16/05/20 – 06:32

I was interested to read the comment by Chris Hough (12/6/11) concerning the asymmetric upper deck window arrangement on Widnes buses.
My father J H (Harry) Craggs was general manager of Widnes Corporation for many years (from around 1950-1965) and I recall very clearly, when I was a young boy, he mentioned the reason for this unusual configuration! He told me that one window was sufficient to get good upper deck ventilation… two were not necessary and having both opened at the same time could cause drafts. It seemed both logical and fascinating at the time and I never forget this unusual conversation, even all these years later!

John Craggs

S H M D – Daimler CVD6 – LMA 754 – 54

S.H.M.D. Daimler CVG

Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield
1949
Daimler CVD6
East Lancs H30/26R

The name of this operator is shortened to S.H.M.D. thankfully, its full name was as follows “Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Joint Transport Tramways/Transport and Electricity Board” (see comments below).
Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield are 4 towns to the east of Manchester. This Daimler had an East Lancs body which was a rare thing as to say they preferred Northern Counties would be an understatement.
S.H.M.D. got together with Atkinson and Northern Counties and in 1955 the only Atkinson double-decker ever built went into service but nothing ever became of the venture and in 1969 it passed over to SELNEC.

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

The Atkinson ‘decker No. 70 (UMA 370) was restored at Stalybridge on withdrawal and presented to the Greater Manchester Museum of Transport, where it still lives. It does come out from time to time and still goes well.
SHMD had ten of those East Lancs bodies, and ten Brush bodies just after the war; it was just a case of “grab what you can” in the post-war shortage of new buses. The East Lancs bodies must have been good as they lived a full life; the Brush were rubbish and were replaced by NCME ones after six years.

David A Jones

Number 70 was not the only Atkinson double-decker built there were two one which was sent to India.

Peter Barber

SHMD were on of the last operators to use centre entrance deckers buying them as late as the nineteen fifties. As well as the solitary Atkinson one other SHMD bus with centre entrance is still in existence being a Daimler CVG6 with Northern Counties body that lives at the Keighley bus museum. They also have a SHMD Atkinson Alpha centre entrance saloon under restoration.

Chris Hough

I was one of the last two apprentices to be taken on by SHMD in 1968, and have worked on the No70 bus along with a host of others. If you need any further information re SHMD please contact me through this site.

Andrew Paul Roberts

Please note that you have fallen for the common mistake of including the word “Joint” in describing the full name for the SHMD. It was always the “Stalybridge Hyde Mossley and Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board”. The trams themselves did show various nomenclatures such as “Joint Board” and that was the term commonly used among local passengers at the time. But the word “joint” was never part of the official name. I am sorry that you did not think to check this out before posting this on-line.

David

I agree that the word Joint didn’t appear in the official title, but it was not “always” Tramways. The name was changed to Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Transport and Electricity Board in 1936.

Peter Williamson

The buses originally carried an “SHMD Joint Tramways” fleet name which then became “SHMD Joint Board” but this was later shortened to “SHMD Board” until the longer title was adopted in much smaller lettering in the early sixties.
Once the device was adopted, for some reason as a general rule double-deckers had the multiple coats-of-arms device between SHMD and Board whereas single deckers only had the lettering.

David Beilby

All Employees and Management through out my time at SHMD, along with the local people knew the company as Joint Board. Yes the Buses had both the monograms and the lettering, but it was always known as Joint Board. I may have letters from SHMD, so I will check to see how they have signed them

Andrew Paul Roberts

OK, so I was lazy in saying the title was “Always Tramways etc.; I know it changed to “Transport”. And of course it always included “and Electricity” even after that responsibility was lost, but that bit was dropped from the full title as shown on the vehicles in later years.
The point I was making was that, though everyone in the area always called it “the Joint Board”, and that was an accurate description of its legal status and function, and the term was used on the vehicles, it was never the legal name of the organisation. That was enshrined in the Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley & Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board Act of 1900. Because everyone knows it had the longest name in the business, everybody seems to want to embellish it unnecessarily with another word to make it sound more eccentric!
This is of course an old Stalybridge tradition, since the town famously boasts what is alleged to be the longest pub name in the world as well:
“The Old Thirteenth Cheshire Riflemen Voluntary Corps Inn”
I’ve seen this with extraneous words added by helpful admirers too!

David Jones

19/03/11 – 07:33

A bit of trivia, in John Schlesingers film ‘Yanks’ the decker used in an early scene the conductress’s hat badge reads ‘Stalybridge and District’ why they didn’t use SHMD I don’t know as the continuity in the film was quite good otherwise.

Roger Broughton

29/11/11 – 18:01

I haven’t watched the excellent film “Yanks” for a good while now, but much of it was filmed in Keighley and I think the bus concerned was Keith Jenkinson’s Keighley-West Yorkshire Titan JUB 29 wasn’t it ??

Chris Youhill

30/11/11 – 06:25

Yes it was Keith Jenkinson’s JUB 29 Chris. I remember it spending a short time in West Yorkshire’s Body Shop for a general sprucing up after filming had finished. It was tucked snugly in the back left-hand corner (viewed from Westmoreland Street) and achieved almost ‘local celebrity’ status with some of the older staff during its brief stay. Like you, I’ve never seen the film, but know that quite a lot of the scenes were shot around Keighley and its railway station. That would tie in very nicely with the Keighley-West Yorkshire vehicle, not to mention the splendid engines of the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway.

Brendan Smith

22/07/12 – 08:02

I remember the Crossley Omnibus Society – or maybe its BWBE predecessor – running a tour with no 70. I don’t remember where we went (probably somewhere in Yorkshire) but I do recall it was a very nice bus to ride.
My other strong memory of the SHMD is a ride on the Haughton Green – Hyde service on an ancient Daimler which had a rope bell. I had heard about these being used on some old trams, but it’s the only time I remember seeing one on a ‘modern’ bus.

Brian Wainwright

23/07/12 – 08:02

SYPTE specified rope bell-pulls on its Leyland Atlanteans and Dennis Dominators – in First Bus days one of the Dominators was allocated to First Calderdale.

Philip Rushworth

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

01/12/12 – 16:13

I have just had a great time looking at the pictures and reminiscing about “the good old days” I was a fitter at the depot on Tame Street along with Andy Roberts. I will try and dig out some old photos and post them.

Derek Gibson

02/12/12 – 13:58

BELLS ON THE SHMD
Some early trams were fitted with electric bells according to Hyde & Ogden in their SHMD Board book. These gave trouble and were replaced. Manual bells were fitted to buses using a continuous jointed leather thong. The Daimler demonstrator double decker 168 delivered in 1936 had but two bell pushes in the lower saloon, which the conductors found insufficient. When incorporated into the fleet it was fitted with the continuous thong bell which on double deckers ended over a pulley and hung down on the platform of double deckers. In the older vehicles the thong was looped through the grab rail along the ceiling, later buses had holders provided. I think more modern buses were fitted with m continuous bells connected to an electric bell in the cab. Upstairs the original Daimler double deckers had a single pneumatic bell at the top of the stairs, with a more modern bellpush than that on the Manchester trams. I recollect that Liverpool’s older trams had a flat strap bell along the middle of the ceiling of the lower deck.

Mr Anon

02/12/12 – 16:31

The Daimler demonstrator of 1936 is referred to in Hyde & Ogdens fleet list as : fleet No 168 Reg No BWK 860. Daimler Chassis COG6 with Weymann Body. Withdrawn 1950. Is this the same as the Daimler CVD6 referred to in your appended comment ?

Mr Anon

Bradford Corporation – Daimler CVG6 – EAK 232D – 232


Copyright Brendan Smith

Bradford Corporation
1966
Daimler CVG6LX/30
East Lancashire (Neepsend) H40/30F

Captured here waiting on Park Road, Bingley is Bradford CT 232, one of a batch of fifteen Daimler CVG6LX/30s supplied to the undertaking in the latter part of 1966. It is seen still wearing BCT’s attractive blue and cream livery, but has had its classic Bradford City Transport fleet name and coat of arms replaced by West Yorkshire PTE’s ‘Metro Bradford’ fleet name and PTE logo. (A ‘2’ prefix has also been added to the fleet number, denoting former Bradford ownership). They were very comfortable buses to ride in, and most handsome buses to look at, bearing a strong resemblance – particularly at the rear – to BCT’s forward-entrance re-bodied trolleybuses delivered a few years previously. Saltaire depot had an allocation of these fine machines, and they could often be seen on the 68 service from Bradford to Edwick/Dick Hudson’s, operated jointly with West Yorkshire Road Car. The Gardner 6LX engines fitted to the Daimlers would have been well-suited to the steady climb up to Gilstead and Eldwick.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

17/09/12 – 07:18

All of this batch went new to Saltaire depot, but 234-40 were passed on to Ludlam Street when Saltaire received new Fleetlines 271-85, which was of course only a matter of months later. These latter, and the remaining CVG6s 226-33 constituted the principal complement of Saltaire’s vehicle allocation for several years, although I was surprised when, around 1970, there was also an East Lancs-bodied Regent III based there. While trolleybuses were still operative on service 40 to City via Thackley there were, I think, two trolleys also kept there overnight, outstationed from Thornbury depot. Does anyone know what effect the trolleybus abandonment had for Saltaire’s vehicle allocation?
The CVG6s were standard fare (pun intended) on route 68, indeed while they were around I don’t recall seeing anything else on BCT’s share of the service. Of course Eldwick didn’t need eight buses, so they also appeared on Manningham Lane services, although heavily outnumbered by Fleetlines. Thornbury depot also had a small presence on these routes, using Regent Vs.
In the early 1970s 234-40 moved on from Ludlam Street depot to Horton Bank Top, where they replaced Regent IIIs.

I can’t vouch for when these actually arrived, but I think only two had entered service by the end of 1966, the rest doing so early in 1967.

I’ve just had a look at my copy of the Stanley King book, and he quotes entries into service of between August and November 1966 – a bit at variance with my recollection, and the vehicles he quotes as the first two in service are not quite the same two I would have said. Still, I’ll stand corrected on this point if necessary.

David Call

17/09/12 – 07:19

I think, Brendan, that these 15 buses were “la creme de la creme” with regard to Bradford`s later fleet, and I travelled on them quite regularly when they were quite new. I also travelled (more often) on the 15 contemporary PD3s with identical bodies, which appeared on my “80” route.
The Daimlers, in particular, just oozed quality, and the sound of the Gardner engine, after so many screaming Regent Vs was a pure delight.
I do remember though, that some Bradford staff were not too happy with the Neepsend bodies, which did not seem as structurally sound as the Blackburn East Lancs version. They looked a lot better though, with the full original Bradford insignia!

John Whitaker

17/09/12 – 07:20

This batch of buses only 8 years old at the formation of the PTE never received PTE livery and remained blue and cream all their lives When quite new they were often seen on the former Ledgard Leeds-Pudsey-Bradford route and were a really nice bus to ride on.

Chris Hough

These vehicles were superb. 226-33 were allocated to Saltaire Depot from new and I remember them appearing on the service to Eldwick in the autumn of 1966. I travelled on them regularly to school. Later when I worked in the Traffic Office of BCT in Forster Square we worked alternate Saturdays and I’d travel on the 07:35 hours journey from Eldwick, which was a BCT Daimler CVG working.
Later still I was a member of a small group of staff that on Monday nights used to frequent the BCT Social Club in Sunbridge Road. The bus stops outside the Club were for services 15 and 16 – West Bowling and Allerton. The bus to Eldwick stopped some distance away in John Street. The last bus from Bradford (Chester Street) to Eldwick left at 10.20pm and I used to ring the Chief Inspector’s Office at Forster Square at about 10.10pm to say that I was “ready for home”. I’d make my way the best I could to the stop for the Allerton service just outside the Club and I’d then be joined by one of the Duty Inspectors. When the Daimler CVG came round the corner from Godwin Street into Sunbridge Road the Inspector would step purposefully into the road and stop the bus for me so that I could get on it. He’d then tell the conductor: “Make sure that he gets off at Eldwick Post Office.”
Ah, happy days, or should that be daze?

Kevin Hey

18/09/12 – 07:25

Huddersfield had a contemporary batch of sixteen CVG6LX-30s, 457-472 (HVH 457-472D). Half were bodied by East Lancs at Blackburn the other half by Neepsend. They became due for initial recertification shortly after I arrived at Huddersfield. I don’t recall that the Neepsend bodies were any worse at that stage than the Blackburn built examples. I do recall that one body type all suffered from body framing fractures above the entrance doors (Neepsend I think) whilst the other all had frame fractures on the staircase side. Some of this batch were particularly hard worked being 2 way radio fitted and hence allocated to the longest duties. Yes, the dulcet tones of these Daimlers were a vast improvement on the raucous cacophony from the eight forward entrance Regent Vs which were disliked by the crews.

Ian Wild

19/09/12 – 07:16

Huddersfield also had an earlier batch, 435-440, CCX 435-440B. There were detail differences in this earlier batch, from memory, mainly colour and layout of the staircase/luggage area.

Eric Bawden

Huddersfield Corporation – Daimler CVG6 – HVH 472D – 472

Huddersfield Corporation - Daimler CVG6 - HVH 472D - 472

Huddersfield Corporation
1966
Daimler CVG6LX.30DD
East Lancs H41/29F

This is the last Huddersfield Corporation vehicle delivered (numerically) with a front engine and is currently preserved. It was new in 1966 to the Corporation, being withdrawn in 1980, having served 6 years with the WYPTE.
The photo was taken in 2005 at a local bus rally and shows the vehicle turned out in superb condition and displaying the old Corporation livery with the front end swoops.
It is still active and I photographed it at another local rally earlier this year.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tim Jackson

27/06/15 – 06:40

I rode on this bus this year at Llandudno, and was surprised to be given an ultimate ticket. Perhaps the owners have a big supply of ticket rolls.
A lovely bus, Daimlers don’t get the attention they deserve. Pity about the forward entrance!

Don McKeown

28/06/15 – 05:52

Well Don, Huddersfield used Ultimate ticket machines so that added to the authenticity of riding on it. Despite having served over six years with WYPTE it somehow managed to retain its Huddersfield livery to the end.

Eric Bawden

02/07/15 – 05:45

HVH 472D_2

What’s that white(ish) circle on the offside tyre? It looks like a light to me, but can’t be original . . . and surely can’t be legal now.
I’m assuming that these had Daimatic transmission. Did that completely supersede pre-select, or was pre-select available until the end of production? if it was, then I’m assuming it would have been air-actuated . . . surely that “lethal” spring(?) system had been confined to the bin by then.

Philip Rushworth

02/07/15 – 08:34

It is a light and there should be a corresponding one on the other side. If you look for photos of the bus on Flickr you can find a selection with two, one or zero lights. I believe it is currently displaying the correct two lights.

David Beilby

03/07/15 – 06:38

Philip, Northampton’s last Daimler CVG6s delivered in 1968 had pre-selector gearboxes. For some reason it seems to run in my mind that they may have been of the thigh and knee bruising spring-operated type, as I seem to recall Northampton also specified vacuum brakes on the vehicles. Air-operated systems require the use of an air compressor, whereas vacuum brakes require the use of an exhauster, which would not be compatible with an air-operated gearbox. Ideally we need a Northampton expert to confirm this.
The Huddersfield Daimler CVG6LXs were handsome vehicles, whether bodied by Roe, or East Lancashire. I have fond memories of riding on one or two of the latter between Huddersfield and Halifax, and being impressed by their turn of speed. They sounded wonderful and were also comfortable buses to ride on. That ‘Corporation’ livery was special as well, with the extra cream and streamlining at the front, and it’s distinctiveness is sadly missed.

Brendan Smith

03/07/15 – 06:39

Philip, these did indeed have Daimatic semi-auto transmission, but as far as I know the pre-select spring operated transmission was still available. I think all the Northampton CVG’s had them right up to the last “G” reg.examples, though I doubt any other operator would have bought any for years.

Eric Bawden

05/07/15 – 07:30

I believe that Northampton specified vacuum brakes right up to their last deliveries hence with no air pressure system on the buses the pre selector spring operated transmission was the only option. Generally Operators who specified air brakes took the 2 pedal Daimatic transmission.

Ian Wild

08/07/15 – 05:42

Thanks for the various replies. Did any operator purchase air-actuated pre-selector buses in preference to the Daimatic transmission? Am I correct in assuming that the Daimatic transmission was just a CAV-actuated SCG box built/purchased(?) under license?

Philip Rushworth