Tag: East Lancs

Widnes Corporation – Daimler CWA6 – FTF 207 – 59


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Widnes Corporation
1945
Daimler CWA6
Duple UL55R – East Lancs L27/28R 1955

This photo was sent to me by Richard Mercer after he had seen the posting of the London Transport Daimler D1 which also had a Duple body, but as Richard points out this one is more rounded with softer edges and not so angular as the LT one.  As there is only one year between this vehicle and the LT one it leads to the question was this bus rebodied before this shot was taken, and if it was, is it possible that it was done by East Lancs. What I like about it is the very shapely cab door, side window and windscreen the driver had good visibility from that cab. Richard has fond memories of this bus which was photographed in St Pauls Road Widnes as it was his school bus in the 1950,s. The bus was withdrawn in 1967 and went to a dealer in Wombwell South Yorkshire I do not know if it had a life after that, if you know, let me know.

Photograph and information contributed by Richard Mercer

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

12/06/11 – 10:41

The asymmetrical upper deck window arrangement was not as may be thought a simple repair job but the standard adopted by Widnes for all its new double deck deliveries until the switch to saloons in the nineteen sixties.

Chris Hough

12/06/11 – 11:27

This looks like an East Lancs body to me, and this is borne out by another picture of this bus on the Omnicolour Bussslides website. East Lancs apparently managed to convince the authorities that it could not adopt the severe austerity style of construction specified for the standard Utility bodywork without disrupting production, and its wartime bodies were built to the usual East Lancs appearance, though one imagines that the general embargo on the use of lightweight alloys and other materials must have applied. It is possible, therefore, that the body shown is original. However, the neat, well proportioned lines of the body on this Widnes bus certainly looks like an East Lancs product of the 1950s to me.

Roger Cox

13/06/11 – 07:46

I am no expert on these matters but it definitely looks like a rebody to me. The radius corner flush mounted side windows and sliding ventilators don’t look like those from a utility body and the front and rear domes are too rounded. It does have an East Lancs look about it though.

Ian Wild

13/06/11 – 07:48

FTF 207 was indeed rebodied by E/Lancs with this lowbridge body in 1955. Several Daimlers from the same batch and and also the 1943 batch received E/Lancs highbridge bodies around the same period.
My information is taken from the 1965 edition of Ian Allan British Bus Fleets book 6, Lancashire Municipal fleets.

Eric

13/06/11 – 07:51

Yes indeed. BBF6 has this as rebodied by East Lancs in 1955. However, it is shown as L55R rather than H55R, with FTF 208 rebodied at the same time as H60R.

Peter Williamson

13/06/11 – 10:41

As a stranger to the area and the operator I can’t possibly comment on the accuracy of the fleet lists, but unless its an optical illusion it certainly looks like a highbridge body. It is an extremely handsome vehicle – however tall it is !!

Chris Youhill

13/06/11 – 10:32

If you look at the handrail running alongside the upperdeck off side windows this confirms that it is a sunken gangway lowbridge body and the roofline is much flatter than the highbridge version.
My home town of Huddersfield had two batches of Regent III’s in 1954/5 with identical lowbridge bodies to this one. They also had a batch of highbridges in 1955 with a much more rounded roof profile. Leigh Corporation also had a batch of lowbridge Regent III’s around the same time and there is a photo of one of these in the 1965 BBF6

Eric

There is a shot of a Leigh Regent here and a Huddersfield one here.

Peter

13/06/11 – 12:11

I’ve just had a look at the photo of the Leigh one and whilst it is of the same general style as the Widnes/Huddersfield bodies I have noticed that the windows are not as flush as in the newer bodies and the radius corners of the pillars are slightly more angular. So the Leigh bodies are to the earlier design of about 1951. Again, Huddersfield had a batch each of highbridge and lowbridge bodies to this design delivered in 1951/2 the highbridges being 170-5 (FVH 170-5) of 1951 and the lowbridges 226-31 (GCX 26-31) of 1952. The also had a batch of highbridges delivered in 1950, 163-9 (EVH 563-9) but these bodies were of a totally different style altogether. So perhaps this shows that East Lancs were “on the ball” when it came to body design and updating.

Eric

14/06/11 – 08:23

Another good way of telling that it’s lowbridge is the gutter moulding above the lower saloon. This dips down behind the cab and then up again at the rear bulkhead and is in line with the floor. The drainage from the upper saloon floor would be behind that moulding.

David Beilby

15/06/11 – 07:09

I found this very confusing at first. I’ve never seen a picture of this before and I was initially unable to decide between Duple or East Lancs but it clearly is the latter as has now been proven. I think the confusion can be explained through the links posted by Peter W, this vehicle is obviously 7ft 6in wide, which gives the impression of extra height although it is lowbridge and dissembles the East Lancs look to a degree. The Leigh and Huddersfield vehicles are clearly 8ft wide and look more as you expect East Lancs to look for the period.
How nice to read that it achieved 22 years service!

Chris Barker

15/06/2011 15:55

Perhaps the missing push out ventilator on the off side upperdeck front window makes some people question if it is an East Lancs body and I think it does detracts slightly from what is an otherwise classic design of the period.

Eric

16/06/11 – 09:20

East Lancs bodied the majority of Widnes fleet in post war years a batch of East Lancs bodied PD2s which were to prove Widnes last deckers all had the winking eye upper deck treatment East Lancs even bodied a rather bizarre coach for Widnes in the sixties They switched to Nationals and later the Lynx when these became available

Chris Hough

Just dug out my very well thumbed BBF No 6 Lancashire – dated 1960 (Price 3/6d) and 59 was definitely East Lancs L57R rebodied in 1955 on the original CWA6 utility chassis. Some of this batch were CWD6 and some retained their utility bodies and were never rebodied at all. I remember seeing a utility bodied example in St Helens in the early 1960’s probably 1961/2 from memory.
For the record if anybody is interested according to this issue of BBF6 (and they were normally pretty accurate in those days) the details of the batch still in stock at 1960 are:-
49/51/53/60 – East Lancs H60R rebodied 1955
54 Northern Counties UH56R
55/56/57 Duple UH56R
58 Duple UL55R
59 East Lancs L57R rebodied 1955
So 59 was the only lowbridge East Lancs rebody.
I have them all underlined as being ‘copped’ apart from 54 which I have crossed out so it must have been an early withdrawal.
I agree that the single front ventilator which was a Widnes trait made the buses look a bit ‘botched’ and detracted from what otherwise was a tidy fleet. I presume the logic was that passengers wanting the fresh air treatment could choose to sit on the nearside while those of a less robust disposition could take to offside!
I remember a spotting trip to Widnes in 1962 when I copped these buses and at that time the new Widnes-Runcorn bridge had not long been open. We took a walk over it and the old Transporter Bridge was in the process of being dismantled. I regret that I never saw it in operation.
It was only after the opening of the new bridge that Widnes buses ventured over to Runcorn and previously terminated on the Lancashire side of the river to allow passengers for Runcorn to alight and go as foot passengers on the Transporter.
The bus drop-off point and the old Transporter Power Building is still in place at the end of a side street of terraced houses. The rest was all demolished.

Philip Halstead

21/08/15 – 06:02

58 and 59 were the only two in the fleet with the side gangway upstairs (handrail visible on 59), the seats being four in line on the nearside. 58 was a more decrepit unit so was probably in original form? My grandmother would never travel on upper decks as smoking was allowed, hence the ventilators. Downstairs she would try to avoid the offside seats on these two as headroom was restricted because of the sunken gangway upstairs. I witnessed many a cracked skull.

Kenneth Aaron

06/09/17 – 06:28

3 that I know of, 49, 51 and 60, had Leyland bodies in the mid 1950’s

Richard Mercer

16/05/20 – 06:32

I was interested to read the comment by Chris Hough (12/6/11) concerning the asymmetric upper deck window arrangement on Widnes buses.
My father J H (Harry) Craggs was general manager of Widnes Corporation for many years (from around 1950-1965) and I recall very clearly, when I was a young boy, he mentioned the reason for this unusual configuration! He told me that one window was sufficient to get good upper deck ventilation… two were not necessary and having both opened at the same time could cause drafts. It seemed both logical and fascinating at the time and I never forget this unusual conversation, even all these years later!

John Craggs

S H M D – Daimler CVD6 – LMA 754 – 54

S.H.M.D. Daimler CVG

Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield
1949
Daimler CVD6
East Lancs H30/26R

The name of this operator is shortened to S.H.M.D. thankfully, its full name was as follows “Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Joint Transport Tramways/Transport and Electricity Board” (see comments below).
Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield are 4 towns to the east of Manchester. This Daimler had an East Lancs body which was a rare thing as to say they preferred Northern Counties would be an understatement.
S.H.M.D. got together with Atkinson and Northern Counties and in 1955 the only Atkinson double-decker ever built went into service but nothing ever became of the venture and in 1969 it passed over to SELNEC.

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

The Atkinson ‘decker No. 70 (UMA 370) was restored at Stalybridge on withdrawal and presented to the Greater Manchester Museum of Transport, where it still lives. It does come out from time to time and still goes well.
SHMD had ten of those East Lancs bodies, and ten Brush bodies just after the war; it was just a case of “grab what you can” in the post-war shortage of new buses. The East Lancs bodies must have been good as they lived a full life; the Brush were rubbish and were replaced by NCME ones after six years.

David A Jones

Number 70 was not the only Atkinson double-decker built there were two one which was sent to India.

Peter Barber

SHMD were on of the last operators to use centre entrance deckers buying them as late as the nineteen fifties. As well as the solitary Atkinson one other SHMD bus with centre entrance is still in existence being a Daimler CVG6 with Northern Counties body that lives at the Keighley bus museum. They also have a SHMD Atkinson Alpha centre entrance saloon under restoration.

Chris Hough

I was one of the last two apprentices to be taken on by SHMD in 1968, and have worked on the No70 bus along with a host of others. If you need any further information re SHMD please contact me through this site.

Andrew Paul Roberts

Please note that you have fallen for the common mistake of including the word “Joint” in describing the full name for the SHMD. It was always the “Stalybridge Hyde Mossley and Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board”. The trams themselves did show various nomenclatures such as “Joint Board” and that was the term commonly used among local passengers at the time. But the word “joint” was never part of the official name. I am sorry that you did not think to check this out before posting this on-line.

David

I agree that the word Joint didn’t appear in the official title, but it was not “always” Tramways. The name was changed to Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Transport and Electricity Board in 1936.

Peter Williamson

The buses originally carried an “SHMD Joint Tramways” fleet name which then became “SHMD Joint Board” but this was later shortened to “SHMD Board” until the longer title was adopted in much smaller lettering in the early sixties.
Once the device was adopted, for some reason as a general rule double-deckers had the multiple coats-of-arms device between SHMD and Board whereas single deckers only had the lettering.

David Beilby

All Employees and Management through out my time at SHMD, along with the local people knew the company as Joint Board. Yes the Buses had both the monograms and the lettering, but it was always known as Joint Board. I may have letters from SHMD, so I will check to see how they have signed them

Andrew Paul Roberts

OK, so I was lazy in saying the title was “Always Tramways etc.; I know it changed to “Transport”. And of course it always included “and Electricity” even after that responsibility was lost, but that bit was dropped from the full title as shown on the vehicles in later years.
The point I was making was that, though everyone in the area always called it “the Joint Board”, and that was an accurate description of its legal status and function, and the term was used on the vehicles, it was never the legal name of the organisation. That was enshrined in the Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley & Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board Act of 1900. Because everyone knows it had the longest name in the business, everybody seems to want to embellish it unnecessarily with another word to make it sound more eccentric!
This is of course an old Stalybridge tradition, since the town famously boasts what is alleged to be the longest pub name in the world as well:
“The Old Thirteenth Cheshire Riflemen Voluntary Corps Inn”
I’ve seen this with extraneous words added by helpful admirers too!

David Jones

19/03/11 – 07:33

A bit of trivia, in John Schlesingers film ‘Yanks’ the decker used in an early scene the conductress’s hat badge reads ‘Stalybridge and District’ why they didn’t use SHMD I don’t know as the continuity in the film was quite good otherwise.

Roger Broughton

29/11/11 – 18:01

I haven’t watched the excellent film “Yanks” for a good while now, but much of it was filmed in Keighley and I think the bus concerned was Keith Jenkinson’s Keighley-West Yorkshire Titan JUB 29 wasn’t it ??

Chris Youhill

30/11/11 – 06:25

Yes it was Keith Jenkinson’s JUB 29 Chris. I remember it spending a short time in West Yorkshire’s Body Shop for a general sprucing up after filming had finished. It was tucked snugly in the back left-hand corner (viewed from Westmoreland Street) and achieved almost ‘local celebrity’ status with some of the older staff during its brief stay. Like you, I’ve never seen the film, but know that quite a lot of the scenes were shot around Keighley and its railway station. That would tie in very nicely with the Keighley-West Yorkshire vehicle, not to mention the splendid engines of the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway.

Brendan Smith

22/07/12 – 08:02

I remember the Crossley Omnibus Society – or maybe its BWBE predecessor – running a tour with no 70. I don’t remember where we went (probably somewhere in Yorkshire) but I do recall it was a very nice bus to ride.
My other strong memory of the SHMD is a ride on the Haughton Green – Hyde service on an ancient Daimler which had a rope bell. I had heard about these being used on some old trams, but it’s the only time I remember seeing one on a ‘modern’ bus.

Brian Wainwright

23/07/12 – 08:02

SYPTE specified rope bell-pulls on its Leyland Atlanteans and Dennis Dominators – in First Bus days one of the Dominators was allocated to First Calderdale.

Philip Rushworth

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

01/12/12 – 16:13

I have just had a great time looking at the pictures and reminiscing about “the good old days” I was a fitter at the depot on Tame Street along with Andy Roberts. I will try and dig out some old photos and post them.

Derek Gibson

02/12/12 – 13:58

BELLS ON THE SHMD
Some early trams were fitted with electric bells according to Hyde & Ogden in their SHMD Board book. These gave trouble and were replaced. Manual bells were fitted to buses using a continuous jointed leather thong. The Daimler demonstrator double decker 168 delivered in 1936 had but two bell pushes in the lower saloon, which the conductors found insufficient. When incorporated into the fleet it was fitted with the continuous thong bell which on double deckers ended over a pulley and hung down on the platform of double deckers. In the older vehicles the thong was looped through the grab rail along the ceiling, later buses had holders provided. I think more modern buses were fitted with m continuous bells connected to an electric bell in the cab. Upstairs the original Daimler double deckers had a single pneumatic bell at the top of the stairs, with a more modern bellpush than that on the Manchester trams. I recollect that Liverpool’s older trams had a flat strap bell along the middle of the ceiling of the lower deck.

Mr Anon

02/12/12 – 16:31

The Daimler demonstrator of 1936 is referred to in Hyde & Ogdens fleet list as : fleet No 168 Reg No BWK 860. Daimler Chassis COG6 with Weymann Body. Withdrawn 1950. Is this the same as the Daimler CVD6 referred to in your appended comment ?

Mr Anon

Bradford Corporation – Daimler CVG6 – EAK 232D – 232


Copyright Brendan Smith

Bradford Corporation
1966
Daimler CVG6LX/30
East Lancashire (Neepsend) H40/30F

Captured here waiting on Park Road, Bingley is Bradford CT 232, one of a batch of fifteen Daimler CVG6LX/30s supplied to the undertaking in the latter part of 1966. It is seen still wearing BCT’s attractive blue and cream livery, but has had its classic Bradford City Transport fleet name and coat of arms replaced by West Yorkshire PTE’s ‘Metro Bradford’ fleet name and PTE logo. (A ‘2’ prefix has also been added to the fleet number, denoting former Bradford ownership). They were very comfortable buses to ride in, and most handsome buses to look at, bearing a strong resemblance – particularly at the rear – to BCT’s forward-entrance re-bodied trolleybuses delivered a few years previously. Saltaire depot had an allocation of these fine machines, and they could often be seen on the 68 service from Bradford to Edwick/Dick Hudson’s, operated jointly with West Yorkshire Road Car. The Gardner 6LX engines fitted to the Daimlers would have been well-suited to the steady climb up to Gilstead and Eldwick.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

17/09/12 – 07:18

All of this batch went new to Saltaire depot, but 234-40 were passed on to Ludlam Street when Saltaire received new Fleetlines 271-85, which was of course only a matter of months later. These latter, and the remaining CVG6s 226-33 constituted the principal complement of Saltaire’s vehicle allocation for several years, although I was surprised when, around 1970, there was also an East Lancs-bodied Regent III based there. While trolleybuses were still operative on service 40 to City via Thackley there were, I think, two trolleys also kept there overnight, outstationed from Thornbury depot. Does anyone know what effect the trolleybus abandonment had for Saltaire’s vehicle allocation?
The CVG6s were standard fare (pun intended) on route 68, indeed while they were around I don’t recall seeing anything else on BCT’s share of the service. Of course Eldwick didn’t need eight buses, so they also appeared on Manningham Lane services, although heavily outnumbered by Fleetlines. Thornbury depot also had a small presence on these routes, using Regent Vs.
In the early 1970s 234-40 moved on from Ludlam Street depot to Horton Bank Top, where they replaced Regent IIIs.

I can’t vouch for when these actually arrived, but I think only two had entered service by the end of 1966, the rest doing so early in 1967.

I’ve just had a look at my copy of the Stanley King book, and he quotes entries into service of between August and November 1966 – a bit at variance with my recollection, and the vehicles he quotes as the first two in service are not quite the same two I would have said. Still, I’ll stand corrected on this point if necessary.

David Call

17/09/12 – 07:19

I think, Brendan, that these 15 buses were “la creme de la creme” with regard to Bradford`s later fleet, and I travelled on them quite regularly when they were quite new. I also travelled (more often) on the 15 contemporary PD3s with identical bodies, which appeared on my “80” route.
The Daimlers, in particular, just oozed quality, and the sound of the Gardner engine, after so many screaming Regent Vs was a pure delight.
I do remember though, that some Bradford staff were not too happy with the Neepsend bodies, which did not seem as structurally sound as the Blackburn East Lancs version. They looked a lot better though, with the full original Bradford insignia!

John Whitaker

17/09/12 – 07:20

This batch of buses only 8 years old at the formation of the PTE never received PTE livery and remained blue and cream all their lives When quite new they were often seen on the former Ledgard Leeds-Pudsey-Bradford route and were a really nice bus to ride on.

Chris Hough

These vehicles were superb. 226-33 were allocated to Saltaire Depot from new and I remember them appearing on the service to Eldwick in the autumn of 1966. I travelled on them regularly to school. Later when I worked in the Traffic Office of BCT in Forster Square we worked alternate Saturdays and I’d travel on the 07:35 hours journey from Eldwick, which was a BCT Daimler CVG working.
Later still I was a member of a small group of staff that on Monday nights used to frequent the BCT Social Club in Sunbridge Road. The bus stops outside the Club were for services 15 and 16 – West Bowling and Allerton. The bus to Eldwick stopped some distance away in John Street. The last bus from Bradford (Chester Street) to Eldwick left at 10.20pm and I used to ring the Chief Inspector’s Office at Forster Square at about 10.10pm to say that I was “ready for home”. I’d make my way the best I could to the stop for the Allerton service just outside the Club and I’d then be joined by one of the Duty Inspectors. When the Daimler CVG came round the corner from Godwin Street into Sunbridge Road the Inspector would step purposefully into the road and stop the bus for me so that I could get on it. He’d then tell the conductor: “Make sure that he gets off at Eldwick Post Office.”
Ah, happy days, or should that be daze?

Kevin Hey

18/09/12 – 07:25

Huddersfield had a contemporary batch of sixteen CVG6LX-30s, 457-472 (HVH 457-472D). Half were bodied by East Lancs at Blackburn the other half by Neepsend. They became due for initial recertification shortly after I arrived at Huddersfield. I don’t recall that the Neepsend bodies were any worse at that stage than the Blackburn built examples. I do recall that one body type all suffered from body framing fractures above the entrance doors (Neepsend I think) whilst the other all had frame fractures on the staircase side. Some of this batch were particularly hard worked being 2 way radio fitted and hence allocated to the longest duties. Yes, the dulcet tones of these Daimlers were a vast improvement on the raucous cacophony from the eight forward entrance Regent Vs which were disliked by the crews.

Ian Wild

19/09/12 – 07:16

Huddersfield also had an earlier batch, 435-440, CCX 435-440B. There were detail differences in this earlier batch, from memory, mainly colour and layout of the staircase/luggage area.

Eric Bawden

Huddersfield Corporation – Daimler CVG6 – HVH 472D – 472

Huddersfield Corporation - Daimler CVG6 - HVH 472D - 472

Huddersfield Corporation
1966
Daimler CVG6LX.30DD
East Lancs H41/29F

This is the last Huddersfield Corporation vehicle delivered (numerically) with a front engine and is currently preserved. It was new in 1966 to the Corporation, being withdrawn in 1980, having served 6 years with the WYPTE.
The photo was taken in 2005 at a local bus rally and shows the vehicle turned out in superb condition and displaying the old Corporation livery with the front end swoops.
It is still active and I photographed it at another local rally earlier this year.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tim Jackson

27/06/15 – 06:40

I rode on this bus this year at Llandudno, and was surprised to be given an ultimate ticket. Perhaps the owners have a big supply of ticket rolls.
A lovely bus, Daimlers don’t get the attention they deserve. Pity about the forward entrance!

Don McKeown

28/06/15 – 05:52

Well Don, Huddersfield used Ultimate ticket machines so that added to the authenticity of riding on it. Despite having served over six years with WYPTE it somehow managed to retain its Huddersfield livery to the end.

Eric Bawden

02/07/15 – 05:45

HVH 472D_2

What’s that white(ish) circle on the offside tyre? It looks like a light to me, but can’t be original . . . and surely can’t be legal now.
I’m assuming that these had Daimatic transmission. Did that completely supersede pre-select, or was pre-select available until the end of production? if it was, then I’m assuming it would have been air-actuated . . . surely that “lethal” spring(?) system had been confined to the bin by then.

Philip Rushworth

02/07/15 – 08:34

It is a light and there should be a corresponding one on the other side. If you look for photos of the bus on Flickr you can find a selection with two, one or zero lights. I believe it is currently displaying the correct two lights.

David Beilby

03/07/15 – 06:38

Philip, Northampton’s last Daimler CVG6s delivered in 1968 had pre-selector gearboxes. For some reason it seems to run in my mind that they may have been of the thigh and knee bruising spring-operated type, as I seem to recall Northampton also specified vacuum brakes on the vehicles. Air-operated systems require the use of an air compressor, whereas vacuum brakes require the use of an exhauster, which would not be compatible with an air-operated gearbox. Ideally we need a Northampton expert to confirm this.
The Huddersfield Daimler CVG6LXs were handsome vehicles, whether bodied by Roe, or East Lancashire. I have fond memories of riding on one or two of the latter between Huddersfield and Halifax, and being impressed by their turn of speed. They sounded wonderful and were also comfortable buses to ride on. That ‘Corporation’ livery was special as well, with the extra cream and streamlining at the front, and it’s distinctiveness is sadly missed.

Brendan Smith

03/07/15 – 06:39

Philip, these did indeed have Daimatic semi-auto transmission, but as far as I know the pre-select spring operated transmission was still available. I think all the Northampton CVG’s had them right up to the last “G” reg.examples, though I doubt any other operator would have bought any for years.

Eric Bawden

05/07/15 – 07:30

I believe that Northampton specified vacuum brakes right up to their last deliveries hence with no air pressure system on the buses the pre selector spring operated transmission was the only option. Generally Operators who specified air brakes took the 2 pedal Daimatic transmission.

Ian Wild

08/07/15 – 05:42

Thanks for the various replies. Did any operator purchase air-actuated pre-selector buses in preference to the Daimatic transmission? Am I correct in assuming that the Daimatic transmission was just a CAV-actuated SCG box built/purchased(?) under license?

Philip Rushworth

Halifax Corporation – Daimler CD650 – CCP 603 – 83

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1951
Daimler CD650
East Lancs H30/26R

Not the best photo in my collection but it is the only shot I have of one of the 6 big Daimler CD650s that Halifax owned. Halifax were one of the few or should I say very few operators who took delivery of the CD650 easily recognisable by its wider than normal fluted radiator. I think there was less than 20 double deck chassis built for U.K. operators although the single deck version sold in larger numbers but mainly for the overseas market. The CD650 had the Daimler 10.6 litre six cylinder diesel engine and the Daimler preselect gearbox. I should think the large engine was one of the main selling points with Halifax it would make those hills around it a little easier to climb. The East Lancs body was was a bit different for Halifax, during the late 40s early 50s they were more into Roe and Park Royals, they must not of been over impressed as I don’t think they took delivery of any more East Lancs bodied vehicles.

Very impressive vehicles, the 10,6 Daimler was indestructible but with a tendency to have ‘crankcase explosions’ for no known reason. The East Lancs bodies were good and favoured by the body supt Leslie Bolton who had worked for East Lancs but at this time there was a huge choice, the East Lancs was a bit pricey and new Manager Le Fevre liked the MetCam/Weyman Leyland combinations of buses bought after this date.
The early demise was due to the erratic hydraulic braking/steering system which did it’s own thing without warning making them an uncomfortable driving experience, had they had air brakes they may have been the best of all 1950’s buses for sheer toughness.
No one bothered to consider this option to convert. There was only ever one Daimler/10.6 CVG, CD650 and that was new to Glasgow, it still exists somewhere.

Christopher

If I may just correct Christophers comment re CD650’s.
There were actually two CVD650/30 chassis. The first one was shown at the 1956 commercial motor show but wasn’t bodied until 1961 when it received a front entrance 73 seat Roe body and entered service with Leon of Finningly as their number 57 with registration 432 KAL. The bus spent all its’ working life with Leon.
With a Manchester style bonnet the bus could easily be mistaken at first glance as a more common CVG6/30.

Andrew

08/07/11 – 06:24

I went to work for HPTD at Skircoat Road as a Traffic Clerk in 1964, by which time the CD650s were history, but still spoken of with awe and long lingering trepidation. As Christopher says above, the high pressure hydraulic braking, steering, gear change and handbrake system operated in a truly wayward and erratic manner, and Geoff Hilditch, in his various entertaining and enlightening writings, has given graphic accounts of the unpredictable and often frightening road behaviour of these machines. One can only wonder why Daimler did not ditch the hydraulics and go over to air pressure brakes and gear operation, but the firm continued with the hydraulic system on the Freeline for years.

Roger Cox

08/07/11 – 08:53

As far as I recall, the ten Daimler CVD6/Brush vehicles bought by Leeds City Transport in 1948, numbers 522 -531, had Lockheed hydraulic brakes. The entire batch were withdrawn early by Leeds and, via a dealer, were bought by Samuel Ledgard. This caused a near riot in the Council Chamber as they entered service alongside LCT buses on much common mileage !! I say “as far as I can recall” because all ten were at the Armley chief depot – I was at Otley/Ilkley – and so I only drove a couple of them briefly as unexpected changeovers. I do remember though that the brakes were more than adequate under all circumstances and had a tendency to “savageness” now and again without warning. Also, in place of the normal 0 – 30 vacuum gauge, there was a dial marked 0 – 2000 in some retarding commodity or other – I am not an engineer so can’t comment further on that. The Brush bodies were about half a ton heavier than normal but were superbly built and finished – we had four near identical vehicles, but with vacuum brakes, ex Exeter Corporation. For 1948 the bodies had a charming mix of vintage styling with extremely tidy and competent outline.

Chris Youhill

09/07/11 – 06:59

There are two different types of hydraulic braking being referred to here. The Leeds Daimlers would have had vacuum servo-assisted hydraulic braking, a bit like a lot of modern cars. Essentially a hydraulic system, the vacuum servo just reduces the effort needed and, I believe, means it works even if you have no vacuum. You just press harder. The gauge you refer to would show vacuum (in inches mercury) and hydraulic pressure (in psi).
The CD650 had a pumped hydraulic system, the pump being driven off the engine. This relied on oil flow. The power steering and hydraulic-assistance on the pre-selector gearbox used the same circuit. I’ve heard tales that on SHMD’s Freeline the sliding centre-doors were hydraulic also and if you opened the doors approaching a stop the brakes eased off!

David Beilby

09/07/11 – 08:23

Off topic, but the platform doors tale reminds me of side-valve Ford cars, which had windscreen wipers driven from the exhaust manifold. As soon as you put you foot down on the throttle, the wipers slowed and could come to a halt on a steep hill. Of course, you could partly overcome it by changing down, but with a three-speed gearbox, you also came close to a halt anyway! But then you needed to, if you couldn’t see where you were going in the rain!

Chris Hebbron

09/07/11 – 21:16

Chris H has brought back many “happy” memories of the side valve Prefects, Anglias and Populars of which I had several in my time. If I recall, the famous windscreen wipers were made by a wonderful supplier called “Trico- Folberth” – and another feature of these basic but tough and characterful cars was the thermo syphon cooling system – no water pump !! Back to the buses now.

Chris Youhill

09/07/11 – 21:18

Yes, Chris – been there, done that! But when you come to think of it, second gear on an Anglia 100E with the 1172cc side valve engine was remarkably flexible – it would actually take you from about 8 up to 40mph – though, of course, at the upper end the wipers would have long since come to a grinding halt!

Stephen Ford

10/07/11 – 07:44

…..and I also have family history with said 100E.

David Oldfield

10/07/11 – 07:45

Ah..memories of the side valve Ford! I spent many years enjoying these as my father had them as Company cars from 1950 until 1964! I hate to say this but may I make a small correction about the wipers? They were driven by manifold depression from the inlet manifold rather than the exhaust. Hence when the engine was under load, depression/vacuum was low and on light running or on the over run, it was high so that as you say, climbing a hill in the rain was guesswork but on a downhill stretch the things flapped about like mad! Trico Folberth also offered screen wash systems that worked in a similar way offering a weak dribble or a fire hydrant depending on throttle position!

Richard Leaman

11/07/11 – 07:30

I to had experience of the vacuum wipers on the side-valve Ford’s. I think I am right in saying that they were also fitted to the Mk1 Zephyr/Consul range and possible the Mk11’s as well.
Amazing what a discussion on Halifax Daimlers leads to!

Eric

11/07/11 – 07:32

Richard’s comment brings us back to vacuum servo-assisted brakes, because, as I understand it, the servo also works off the inlet manifold. This is sensible for brakes, because you aren’t going to want to use them when the engine is under load, are you?

Peter Williamson

11/07/11 – 10:38

I believe that only lightweight buses used manifold vacuum for the brake servos. For heavier vehicles a separate engine-driven vacuum pump exhausting a vacuum tank was the norm, so that you had full stopping-power for at least a couple of brake applications if the engine stalled! Some petrol Bedford SBs (NOT my favourite vehicle) had a very capricious vacuum-actuated 2-speed axle. I’d very much appreciate more detail on all this particularly dates of introduction of the various systems. Thanks in advance,

Ian Thompson

21/08/13 – 06:53

Evidently the “chopped off triangle” destination boxes were brought to Halifax by Scotsman Roderick McKenzie, General Manager from 1952 to 1956.
This type of box was common in Scotland but of course Ribble had them as well…

Geoff Kerr

23/08/13 – 15:31

I thought you were referring to Triangle the place as it is below Halifax on the destination display !

Roger Broughton

23/08/13 – 17:47

Well spotted, Roger, very droll!

Eric Bawden

24/08/13 – 11:48

These Daimlers were delivered the same week that I was, and when the time came for me to be returned home from the Infirmary maternity ward my father – never one to waste money on unnecessary luxuries like taxis – decided that the Corporation could do the job perfectly well enough. I, of course can’t remember the occasion too well, but he often related how the bus we travelled on – my first ever bus ride – was on a brand new CD650 with its enormous, glistening fluted radiator.
Consequently I always had a particular fascination with them, and was sad when they had to make such a premature departure to the breakers when only about 11 years old.
I know that they were too complicated and temperamental when new, and that when most of the complicated bits were removed later they became thoroughly unpleasant to drive – most of the older HPT drivers I spoke to were unanimous about that – but they were otherwise well-built, substantial and powerful machines and I can’t help feeling that something very good could have been made out of them.
One of my greatest wishes must be to one day be able to sample a ride on the sole remaining preserved Blue Bus example, and to savour those unique sound effects just one more time.

John Stringer

22/12/13 – 07:23

Further to John Stringers note about sampling a ride on the sole remaining preserved ex-Blue Bus CD650, there is one in Road Transport Museum here in Coventry, SRB 424 (?) although I believe that due to problems with the braking system it has not been anywhere recently.

John Whale

22/12/13 – 15:40

I presume the preserved Blue Bus CD650 must still be equipped with the original querky and complicated hydraulic systems and so if it has been giving problems there will be little likelihood of seeing it out anytime soon. Oh well, I’ll just have to be satisfied with my memories.

John Stringer

22/12/13 – 15:41

I remember seeing the Halifax CD650s on many trips across the Pennines in the 1950s. They were impressive and, with their East Lancs bodies, could be told apart from the rest of the fleet at any angle from a great distance. The discussion about the vacuum wipers on Fords interested me. At 18 I bought a second hand upright Popular. XNE 694 was one of the last ones built before Ford dropped the design in 1959. It had been bought new by a neighbour who had, due to his own illness and the death of wife, abandoned it on the driveway where I saw it every day until I bought it in 1965 for £35, the insurance cost me £15, 3rd party, fire and theft. Having been left out in the Stockport weather, a deal of rot had set in around the front wings, which I patched with bits of tin can riveted in place then painted. Keeping the car mobile taught me a great deal. When I bought it the car had two windscreen wipers joined by a bar above the windscreen and powered by an electric motor which was set above the windscreen on the driver’s side with a three position switch – off, slow and fast. At the fast speed the bar would often disconnect at the passenger side leading me to eventually remove it leaving one wiper -perfectly legal then! I believe this to have been a retrofit but was it a Ford extra or something cobbled up to defeat the problem of the vacuum powered wiper?

Phil Blinkhorn

22/12/13 – 15:42

PRA 388

I believe that only twenty four CD650 ‘deckers were ever made, of which fourteen went to UK operators. The Halifax fleet of six, delivered in 1951, was the largest single order ever placed. Five went to Johannesburg at the end of 1949, and Tailby & George, t/a Blue Bus Services of Willington, took two in 1951 and two more in 1953. The Blue bus examples had Willowbrook lowbridge bodies of that builder’s then standard appearance with, to my eye, a very ungainly frontal profile. Here is a picture of one of these, PRA 388, taken at a rally in 1971, though I cannot now recall the location. Sadly, the bodywork of this bus deteriorated, and the vehicle was scrapped in 1975. The engine was passed on to SRB 424.

Roger Cox

17/12/14 – 05:40

I rescued SRB 424s sister SRB 425 and over a number of years have had her wooden bodywork rebuilt as she too had suffered from the dreaded rot. There is still much to do but having lived alongside the route she traversed and travelled many many miles on her and indeed all her 3 Blue Bus sisters as well, I thought she was owed a future. There were 66 chassis constructed of which only 14 were operated in Britain. 4 for Blue Bus, 6 for Halifax 1 for Glasgow, 1 for Becketts of Bucknall, later to Browns Blue Markfield, 1 for AA Motor services Ayr and 1 for Rossie Motors Doncaster. SRB 425 became the last CD650 operated in Britain passing to Derby City Transport on 1st Dec 1973 on the sale of the company to that concern and finally withdrawn on 23rd August 1974 after a tour on that evening of which I was present, of her old haunts.

Gerald Anthony

25/12/14 – 08:34

Talking of Leon 57 (432 KAL) – which we were, near the top of this page – does anyone know what it had in common with the above CD650s? I presume it would have had, when new, the 10.6 litre engine, but perhaps nothing else. Did the fitment of that engine survive into Leon days? I suspect maybe not, since I’ve a feeling that contemporary fleet lists referred to the vehicle as a CVG6LX-30. www.flickr.com/photos/8755708

David Call

26/12/14 – 08:46

David: To confuse me, there were two sons of CD650’s around Doncaster, one being Leon as above and the other being the Rossie Motors example which features on this site and is debated there. Both seemed to arrive quite late in the day and contrary to appearances, had big Daimler engines. Anyone know any better or more clearly than me?!

Joe

27/12/14 – 05:27

Were the RA & RB Derbyshire reg marks? I seem to remember Chesterfield Corporation & East Midland Bus companies with these regs.

Andy Fisher

29/12/14 – 06:29

Unsurprisingly for a discussion that has been going on for years, some of the distinctions between models may have slipped under the wire.
The 14 British-operated CD650s were listed by Gerald above, but note that the Rossie Motors example he refers to was MWU 750, which had previously been used as a Daimler demonstrator.
The 30-foot Daimler CV chassis was first announced well before the Gardner 6LX engine, and so the only engine options were the Gardner 6LW (CVG6-30) and the Daimler CD650 (CVD650-30). As described by Andrew near the top of this discussion, only two of the latter were built, and as correctly surmised by David Call, the engine was the only thing they had in common with the earlier CD650 model. All the photos I can find of the Leon Motors example (which had the first CV-30 chassis built) are captioned CVD650, so the engine must have survived into Leon ownership, though I don’t know for how long. The Glasgow one was definitely replaced by a 6LX at some point. The other Rossie Motors vehicle, mentioned by Joe, was 220 AWY. However, this had no connection whatever with the CD650. It was a CVD6-30 with a turbocharged 8.6 litre Daimler engine. This was later replaced by a Leyland O.600, in which form by all accounts it worked rather well.

Finally to answer Andy’s question, Derbyshire marks were RA, RB and NU (and originally R). These were used by Chesterfield Corporation, Midland General and Notts & Derby, but not by East Midland. Prior to 1974 EMMS always registered their vehicles in Nottinghamshire, despite being based in Chesterfield. The best explanation I have been able to obtain is “someone knew someone”.

Peter Williamson

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

16/06/15 – 06:47

I remember back in the 1950s getting on a Daimler CD650 Halifax to Huddersfield and I was most surprised when it climed up The Ainleys in 3rd gear with little effort at all. All the other busses would have to crawl up in 2nd. Why they weren’t kept amazes me!

Kit Coulthard

16/06/15 – 16:32

They were a maintenance nightmare, Kit, due almost wholly to the over taxed high pressure hydraulic system which powered the footbrake, handbrake, steering and gearchange mechanisms. The braking characteristics were particularly wayward and often frightening, bearing in mind the exceptionally hilly terrain of the Halifax operating area. HPTD subsequently removed power operation of the steering, gearchange and handbrake, and, because the demands on the arrangement were now reduced, a simplified hydraulic braking system was fitted, the entire job being a credit to the ingenuity and imagination of the engineering department. The modifications improved reliability, but these buses then became fiendishly heavy to drive, and the engines continued to give trouble. When the Transport Committee accepted that the CVD650s had given a proper return on their initial (and subsequent) outlay, they were sold off with a huge sigh of relief after some 11 years. The Blue Bus examples would not have faced the arduous operating conditions of the Halifax machines.

Roger Cox

Darwen Corporation – Crossley Regent V – 434 BTE – 17

Darwen Corporation – Crossley Regent V

Darwen Corporation
1957
Crossley Regent V D3RV
East Lancs H31/28R

Darwen Corporation was well-known for buying buses which weren’t quite what they seemed, and 434 BTE is typical. “Ah! AEC Regent V with East Lancs body!” I hear. Sorry, folks. 434 BTE is in fact badged as a Crossley.

Darwen Corporation – Crossley Regent V

This was something associated with the allocation of spaces at the Commercial Motor Shows. It is of the Regent V D3RV variety and the East Lancs body is of the H59RD layout. It is seen on Southampton’s Itchen Bridge in the first view, on 6 May 1979, while the close view of the radiator grille was taken in the museum at St Helens on 15 July 2012.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

16/12/16 – 06:26

A true classic municipal bus of the era. Everything just sits together so well. The shapely East Lancs bodywork matches the AEC design tin front so well and it is all topped off with a dignified livery. Darwen also had three Reliances which were similarly badged as Crossleys and also with East Lancs bodies.

Philip Halstead

17/12/16 – 06:31

It looks rather narrow, was this bus 7ft.6ins wide?

Chris Barker

19/12/16 – 09:27

Yes Chris this bus is 7ft 6in wide. Darwen also had some similarly bodied Leyland PD2/31’s which were also 7ft 6in wide. The Regent V and PD2’s had an unusual sliding platform door to the rear platform which was an arrangement used also by Southdown. There was a hinged lower section which turned in to avoid the rear wheel as the door slid forward to open.

Philip Halstead

01/05/17 – 07:09

If you wanted a “genuine” Crossley Regent V then Liverpool Corporations A101-167 (SKB 101-167) of 1955 fitted the bill, as these had Crossley bodies. All went for scrap sadly.
It was a bit odd for Crossley to show off this vehicle when they closed down a year after this bus was built.

Paul Mason

Southampton Corporation – AEC Swift – TCR 293H – 7

Southampton Corporation - AEC Swift - TCR 293H - 7


Copyright Pete Davies

Southampton Corporation
1969
AEC 2MP2R Swift
East Lancs B47D

Here are an off side front and a near side rear view of Southampton Corporation TCR 293H fleet number 7. This AEC 2MP2R Swift was built in 1969 with East Lancs B47D bodywork. She is seen in Pound Tree Road between duties. I captured her on film in April 1976. There is something odd about the name of this road, which might be resolved if the UK ever goes fully “European”. Does it refer to Kilogram or Euro? After all, there are people who think money grows on trees!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

13/01/13 – 10:27

Please refer to the “Gallery” entry on the King Alfred Running Day for comparative views of the Strachan body on similar chassis.

Pete Davies

13/01/13 – 10:28

Not sure I like ‘peak’ at the front, but otherwise, it’s a nice design in a simple livery. I recall that Seddon bodywork had similar peaks. Sign of the time, I suppose.
I think it’s fair to say that East Lancs bodies were not common along or near the South Coast. They are not too familiar to me as a Southerner.
Maybe the road should be re-named Poundstretcher Road, in recognition of the country’s plight!

Chris Hebbron

13/01/13 – 15:07

No, Chris, EL bodies don’t seem to have had much of a following in the South. I think Eastbourne was the only other Municipal, plus Aldershot & District and Southdown. Southampton bought them because, as one Manager told me, they were “cheap and cheerful”!

Pete Davies

13/01/13 – 15:08

I have a picture of another Southampton Swift/Strachan, MTR 424F, which I hope to submit in a Southampton gallery at some time. As for the rarity of East Lancs bodywork “south of Watford”, you’re right, Chris. Aldershot & District and Eastbourne and Luton Corporations had them. To the east, Southend had some, and Lowestoft had a couple of PD2s in 1965. Otherwise, nothing, unless, of course, anyone else knows differently.

It occurs to me that Gideon Osborne would be looking to set up huge plantations of Pound Trees accessed by a thoroughfare called Recovery Road.

Roger Cox

13/01/13 – 17:19

Roger: just the 8 Reliances and 26 Lolines at Reading, of course. Not southern, but geographically south of Watford, there was also also Cardiff with a sizeable number; the Merthyr fleet doesn’t quite qualify as ‘south of Watford’!
The Pound of Pound Tree is surely the place to which illegally parked, or similarly recalcitrant, buses would be towed; in order to suitably screen any double-deckers from public view, it would have been surrounded by trees, the traditional corrugated iron fence being insufficiently tall.

Alan Murray-Rust

13/01/13 – 17:19

East Lancs bodies south of Watford must also include Southdown’s rebodied TD4 and TD5’s carried out between 1946 and 1950 of which there were a total of fifty nine plus of course their final batch of PD2/12’s Nos789-812 considered by many to be the best of the various body builders used on that chassis.
In later years East Lancs became much more popular in the region being bought by Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton and Plymouth municipalities all outside of the sites timescale I know.

Diesel Dave

14/01/13 – 07:12

I must say, I like Alan’s theory of how the road got its name and Roger’s idea of a plantation of this sort of tree. It may be of interest that the bit of public open space to the nearside of the bus forms a gyratory layout, and is known – among bus crews at least – as WINO ISLAND. Guess why!
Thank you, Dave, for your thoughts on other South Coast operators of the EL (or Neepsend!) bodywork. Almost all of Southampton’s Atlanteans had the product and almost all are too new for these pages. I think the same applies to the Brightons and Portsmouths. The Southampton ones with other bodywork came from Plymouth and were well and truly clapped out when they arrived.
I look forward to Roger’s forthcoming “Southampton Gallery”!

Pete Davies

14/01/13 – 07:13

I can’t imagine how I came to forget the Southdown examples of East Lancs, Dave. I saw them many times when I popped down to Brighton from Croydon. Thanks for reminding me. I agree that the Welsh examples should be included in our survey, Alan. Cardiff is certainly south of Watford, and I doubt that the people of Merthyr would consider themselves to be “northerners” or even “midlanders”.

Roger Cox

14/01/13 – 15:34

Southdown also had 40 East Lancs bodied Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 saloons. The first 10 had rear entrances and the rest had centre entrances. All were later converted to front entrance OMO.

Roy Nicholson

16/06/13 – 06:55

To stray from the bus theme but to stay with the ‘Old ‘ bit, a Pound was something every village had back to Norman times, before land was enclosed by greedy landowners. Animals were grazed around the village but strays were rounded up and put in the Pound, released when a fine was paid, The connection with life today is obvious.

Roger Ingle

29/06/14 – 17:27

I cannot add anything to the debate about the name of Pound Tree Road, except to point out that for most of its length the road is between two parks, so there are plenty of trees. If there’s any corrugated iron in the area, it’s on the bus shelters.
As far as East Lancs bodywork is concerned, it might have been cheap – certainly the Venture history of East Lancs reports that their tender for a batch of Mancunians was very competitive. However, it was nevertheless considered to be of good quality, being both substantially built and well finished. The most notable weakness was a tendency to change minor details on every batch of vehicles! I worked for the Transport Department during part of the 1980s, and the engineers were happy with the EL products. SCT did later acquire about a dozen Park Royal/Roe bodied Atlanteans from Plymouth, but as Pete Davies says above, they were past their best, but the interiors were also very utilitarian. Maybe that was down to the operator, but Park Royal seemed to have been on to a cost reduction ‘tick’ since the Leyland PD2s and AEC Regents of the very early 1960s.
I must confess that I quite liked the look of these four Swifts, as the EL single deck styling was subtly different to the contemporary BET design, which had several imitators. Of course. it wasn’t as good as ECW bodied RE, but an interesting contrast. I think the peak at the front, that Chris Hebbron refers to, is a result of the rather high set Swift chassis. A rather neater effect could be achieved on a Bristol RE chassis, with the accompanying benefit of a better mechanical setup!

Nigel Frampton

West Bridgford – AEC Renown – BRR 241C – 41

West Bridgford - AEC Renown - BRR 241C - 41

West Bridgford Urban District Council 
1965
AEC Renown
East Lancs H44/31F

Not many Urban District Council’s had there own bus concern but West Bridgford which is on the outskirts of Nottingham was one of them. The council started the bus service to connect to the Nottingham tram system which did not get as far as West Bridgford in 1913. It is a shame how it all ended for West Bridgford Urban District Council but they had to save money because of a drop off in passengers and tried to introduce one man operation with three AEC Swifts. Unfortunately the union would not go along with it so they decided to cut there losses and sell to Nottingham Corporation in 1968.
There is a very interesting historic article regarding West Bridgford Urban District Council transport here on the website of Peter Gould.

Just browsing the internet and I find a great piece of nostalgia. I lived in Nottingham in the 50s/60s and I definitely would have travelled on this bus many times.
The photo is taken at the old Broad Marsh bus station, which at that time was situated on an area of flattened land following the demolition of old Victorian back-to-back terraced houses. Note the red of several old Barton buses/coaches in the background. They shared the bus station, along with South Notts and Nottingham Corporation Transport.
The bus shows route number 68 to Clifton (where I lived) via Trent Bridge, which was a joint operation with South Notts and Nottingham Corporation Transport.

KC

This takes me back to when I was a young lad about 14 West Bridgford Urban District Council ran a free service from Clifton to the supermarket advertised on the side of the above bus “Gem” which is where Asda is now.
I used to travel a lot to Gem on this service with my mum, and I used to use the service some times as a way of getting into town for free.

Andrew

Great images of a much lamented and long departed fleet. Just one small, probably nit-picking, comment – West Bridgford has no “e” in it.

Neil Woodcock

Looking at the photo again, I definitely travelled on that bus many times as a kid because I’ve noticed something on it which used to intrigue me even then. Look at the entrance area; there is a metal pole in the middle running full height. I always assumed that was added at a later stage, to deal with some distorting or bodywork rigidity problem.
Or was it always designed to be there?

KC

This looks like a very modern bus, most of the fleet were very old, we called them “Wessers” I lived in Clifton 1953 – 68 and often caught one of the wrecks into Nottingham. When you waited at one of the stops in Clifton, everyone groaned when one of these dinosaurs turned up! Because they had to use the Wilford route they were very low, to get under the railway bridge, and the upstairs was ok if you were a midget! the gangway was sunken into the floor at one side and the seats were “fourers”.
Happy days!

Stuart Wisher

I also took this bus between Clifton and Nottingham and to Gem Supermarket many times. I agree with what Stew Wisher says – I’d forgotten about little details – for example how people would groan when they saw an old bus coming going by the long route via Wilford Lane. By the way – I remember Stew Wisher from Fairham! I lived in Clifton on Bainton Grove between 1953 and 1976. I have now been living in Rabat, Morocco for many years – you should see the buses here!

James Gould

Until Clifton Bridge over thee Trent opened (in 1958 I think) all Clifton services ran via Wilford Lane, as Stewart and James will remember. It was a tri-partite joint service with Nottingham City Transport, South Notts and WBUDC, so all were running lowbridge buses. When the estate was first built about 1950 NCT (who until that time had no lowbridge buses and only a very small fleet of single deckers) bought a few second hand Utilities from somewhere “up north” as a stop-gap. About 1953 they bought 10 new AEC Regent IIIs with Park Royal lowbridge bodies (SAU 199-208). Later when the new bridge was opened, the NCT share of the routes was diverted that way with full height double deckers from the brand new fleet of Leyland PD2/40s (1 ATO-45 ATO). Interestingly, for many years afterwards the route numbers remained common to all three operators (61, 61A, 66, 67 and 68) even though the NCT share took a different route to the city.

Stephen Ford

07/03/11 – 09:27

The AEC Renown photo flummoxed me because I lived on Eltham Road in West Bridgford from 1947 until after the demise of WBUDC buses in 1968, and this was near to the entrance to the depot, so I saw dozens of their buses every day on their way in and out. I cannot remember EVER seeing such a bus! I was very familiar with the fleet, including the low roof jobs used on the Wilford Lane route to Clifton. In addition my mother was a clippie during the war years, and my uncle Bill Whitten was a driver throughout the 50’s and early 60’s. I just cannot reconcile the photo with my memories. I rode probably thousands of times on the 14 and 21 routes too, and again the photo means nothing. Quite a mystery, and I wonder if it was a one-off purchase that was not retained….

Brian Marshall

08/03/11 – 06:11

Peter Gould’s site, referred to above, has a fleet list as well as a historical article. There were two Renowns, 41 and 42 purchased 4/65. They passed with the rest of the fleet to Nottingham 9/68, where they were renumbered 393 and 394.

Peter Williamson

05/06/11 – 14:30

The West Bridgford fleet was a good fleet even the oldest members being well looked after .when NCT took over the buses, the ones that were kept ran well and used all over the system I know because I worked in WBUDC workshops I started as a tyre fitter at WBUDC in 1959 then driving for NCT then back to Bridgford in 1967 as a tyre fitter till take over to NCT 1968

John Turton

05/12/11 – 06:26

As a lad growing up in WB in the early to late 1940s I remember all the old WBUDC buses. They seemed to have only one, two or three of each type. I don’t know the technical details but some registration numbers come back to me such as ARR 831 and 832, FNN 101-3, and there were two even older buses usually kept at the back of the Depot on Abbey Road which were included in NCT’s stock after the takeover. One of them is illustrated in John Banks/GHF Atkins books on Nottingham City Transport which are full of nostalgia. I think that at some stage I must have travelled on every WBUDC route apart from perhaps the No.12 (Seymour Road). Does anybody know if any WBUDC buses were saved?

Alan Rose

08/12/11 – 06:41

The only preserved ex-West Bridgford vehicle I’m aware of is no.24, CCX 777, the ex-Huddersfield Daimler CWA6. But despite having spent longer with West Bridgford than it did with Huddersfield, it has never carried West Bridgford livery in preservation.

Peter Williamson

08/12/11 – 15:35

I don’t know if it still exists, but certainly up to 1995 WBUDC 21 (ORR 140) was preserved. This was one of the lowbridge manual gearbox AEC Regent IIIs with Willowbrook body, bought by the UDC in 1954. Does anyone know of its whereabouts (or fate)?

Stephen Ford

08/12/11 – 15:37

Peter There is a second ex West Bridgford bus in preservation, 21 (ORR 140), one of the pair of lowbridge Willowbrook bodied Regent IIIs new in 1954.
It is preserved in WB livery and was active in the 70s and early 80s. I understand an extensive renovation has recently been completed, so hopefully it may be out and about again soon.

Bob Gell

11/12/11 – 11:22

Thank you both. I regard WBUDC as having had one of the best of municipal liveries, and it would be good to see it in the metal again.

Peter Williamson

11/12/11 – 16:53

There’s a picture, now about forty years old, of WBUDC 21 next to the Huddersfield (ex-WBUDC) utility, taken I think at a Rochdale Motorcade. It is in my Pikfu gallery, having been on Fotopic until they went under. As Pikfu is still very much under development I have no control over the watermark, which is a bit obtrusive. It can be found at: //davidbeilby.pikfu.net

David Beilby

11/10/12 – 15:59

I remember the AEC Renown appearing with South Wales in the early 1960s. There were two batches – the first by Park Royal, and the later ones by Willowbrook. They worked on routes formerly operated by either low height regents or Bridgemasters.
There was one unique Renown. Local operator West Wales bought one, Willowbrook bodied and resplendent in a grey livery with red trim, to operate on the joint service from Swansea to Llandeilo.
South Wales also had ten of the former six wheel single decker Renowns – they survived until about 1955.

Mark Lee Inman

13/10/12 – 06:31

Mark, according to BBF18 the first batch of South Wales Renowns were the first in service anywhere.

Peter Williamson

14/10/12 – 14:40

ORR140_lr

There is mention above of the preserved AEC Regent III/Willowbrook ORR140. This photo was taken at the AEC Rally in May of this year, showing its current condition.

Bob Gell

31/10/12 – 17:35

It would seem the biggest user of the Bridgemaster was Western Welsh taking 31 in all. They also had three Renowns delivered in 1965 part of a batch of 28. Thankfully WW did not have any of the frightful front entrance Bridgemasters that S Wales received from Park Royal. They were frightful! The WW Renowns had very smart Northern Counties bodywork.

Mark Lee Inman

02/11/13 – 17:50

I have just read the extremely interesting details on your Nottingham page from Michael Elliott regarding the vehicle allocations between NCT South Notts and WBUDC on the Clifton services. Please could anyone out there tell me how many vehicles of each fleet were allocated to the West Bridgford town services.

David Beardsell

03/11/13 – 08:52

Talking of Renowns, could anyone confirm which were two-pedal (i.e. monocontrol)? ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ only gives two as 3B2RA (the ‘King Alfred’ ones) but it is my understanding that there were a further eight – these two West Bridgford, the five Wolverhampton, and the prototype 8071ML. Can anyone confirm? Surprisingly, ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ doesn’t mention either of the prototypes.
An interesting thing about the Nottingham/West Bridgford Renowns – the operator buying the most Renowns new was City Of Oxford (43), but the operator running the most altogether was Nottingham (44 – the 42 bought new, and the two ex-West Bridgford).

David Call

03/11/13 – 08:54

David B, the only true town services that WBUDC operated were routes 1 and 2 run at school times (to the Grammar School I think) from different parts of WB – so probably one vehicle each, as they were converging on the school at the same time. All of the other WBUDC services were joint operations with NCT to Nottingham South Parade (which is the south side of the Old Market Square). The route numbers (excluding Clifton) were 11, 12, 14, 15, 15A, 21 and 24. I don’t know the vehicle split on those routes. It always seemed about 50/50. Maybe Michael will be able to come in with vehicle numbers. South Notts played no part in these operations – only the Clifton services. Clifton was a strange case, because until Clifton Bridge was opened in 1958, the only route from Nottingham to Clifton estate (which was part of the city) was over Trent Bridge and through West Bridgford, who therefore demanded a slice of the action. It appears to have been quite an acrimonious wrangle before the traffic commissioners.

Stephen Ford

12/11/13 – 06:15

David B/Stephen,
The NCT/WBUDC Joint Operation Agreements (the original of 15/9/27 and the subsequent agreement, when services were extended from Grey Friar Gate to the Old Market Square, dated 30/6/30)provided for an equal split of vehicles between the two operators.
I have some details of the split between the two operators as the situation was in 1968. For the 15/15a the split at Monday to Friday peak periods was two buses each, with the off peak/evening Monday to Friday split being one bus each. On Sunday the split was one bus each. On Saturdays the split was two buses each during the day with one bus each during the evening. So a 50/50 split here.
For the 21 I only have information for the Monday to Friday operation. The split for Monday to Friday peak operation was West Bridgford five buses and NCT four buses. The inter peak period appears to be West Bridgford three buses to NCT’s one (but NCT provided the three extra buses required for the mid day peak service). During the evening three buses were required with the split being West Bridgford two to NCT’s one.
During Monday to Friday evenings services 11/12/14/24 inter worked with a 30 minute headway on each service worked by five buses. The split was NCT three buses and West Bridgford two buses. The morning and afternoon peak service on services 11/12/14/24 required a total of 18 buses, with the inter peak service requiring eight buses. Additional buses would have been needed for the mid day peak.
The total WBUDC Monday to Friday peak vehicle requirement was 23 vehicles during the morning peak and 24 during the afternoon peak. The morning total was made up of five buses on Cliftons, two on the West Bridgford schools service which leaves 16 for the joint services. Given that two buses were on the 15/15a and five on the 21, the remaining nine were on services 11/12/14/24. The afternoon peak required 24 buses because of the additional bus on Cliftons with the other totals unchanged. An additional bus was required for the GEM ‘free bus’ during the afternoon peak when this was in operation (Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, I think).
David C – as far as I am aware there were ten ‘two pedal’ Renowns (model 3B2RA). These were the demonstrator 8071 ML, the two ‘King Alfred’s’ 595/596 LCG, the two West Bridgfords

Michael Elliott

16/11/13 – 11:00

A big thank you to Michael Elliott and Stephen Ford for the above information. Although I have lived in West Bridgford all my life and taken a keen interest in WB buses I have not paid much attention to the actual services. This interest was sparked off by the acquisition of a mint condition 1956 WBUDC timetable book at the Sandtoft gathering this July. This reminded me of another long forgotten artefact which I have hidden away. One day when walking home from Rushcliffe School in the late 1970’s I was passing the old green metal bus shelter on Melton Road which used to stand near the end of Devonshire Road. I noticed the corner of something sticking out from behind the NCT timetable case, I pulled it out to reveal a sheet of varnished plywood with the old WBUDC timetable pasted to it, needless to say it was spirited away.
Next year is the centenary of motor buses in West Bridgford, and I gather that NCT intend to paint a bus in the old maroon and deep cream to commemorate this, I think it looks likely to be Scania Omnidekka 955 as this has not been repainted in Bridgford Bus green livery like its sisters 952-954. There are already posters displayed inside these buses with a basic timeline of the history.

David Beardsell

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

22/11/13 – 08:08

David C – as far as I am aware there were ten “two pedal” Renowns (model 3B2RA). These were the demonstrator 8071 ML, the two “King Alfred’s” 595/596 LCG, the two West Bridgford’s BRR 241/242C and five Wolverhampton’s HJW 182-186D. Some general sources on AEC Renowns quote the Wolverhampton’s as model 3B3RA but other sources dealing with Wolverhampton quote them as 3B2RA, which fits in with Wolverhampton’s preference for ‘two pedal’ control Guy Arabs.

Michael Elliott

Leigh Corporation – AEC Renown – PTC 114C – 15

Leigh Corporation AEC Renown

Leigh Corporation
1965
AEC Renown
East Lancs H41/31F

I think but I’m not over sure, but was the Renown to take over from the Bridgemaster does anybody know. This wasn’t the first time the Renown name had been used by AEC in the late 20s early 30s there was a six-wheeled chassis called the Renown. It would appear that the chassis was used for both double or single deck vehicles.

Picture here of a double decker (scroll down to first b/w picture).
Picture here of a single decker.

The Renown was a replacement for the Bridgemaster. The big problem with the former was that it was of integral construction, which at that time was unacceptable to just about every operator of any significance. In fact by the time the Renown emerged everybody was moving to Atlanteans and Fleetlines, so that was a flop as well!

Yet two more AEC dead-ends, to rank with the ‘Q’ the Regent IV and the Monocoach!

David A Jones

I remember that when AEC announced its intention to build the Renown, the shrinking market for front-engined buses was recognised, and it was intended that the new model should replace the full-height Regent V as well as the low-height Bridgemaster.  Quite why that didn’t happen I don’t know for certain, but in view of the Renown’s reputation for being over-engineered, I would imagine that production costs made it impossible to sell it at a price competitive with other full-height models. 

However, full-height Renowns were built in small numbers for Leicester, Nottingham and Wolverhampton corporations, the low floor being used to give greater headroom for passengers.

Peter Williamson

I’ve ridden a time or two on this preserved Leigh Renown vehicle and it is in very fine order indeed. I may be wrong, but I think I heard that it was involved in an unfortunate “shunt” recently on one of the Manchester Museum open days.
Quite apart from any mechanical or other difficulties I think that the lack of sales for the model can largely be summed up in three words – “One Person Operation” – it probably arrived on the market several years too late.

Chris Youhill

14/07/12 – 10:48

I have just found a brilliant facsimile of a Leigh Corporation Guy Arab model bus on EFE Models of Loughborough models, website based here in Derby.
From what I remember of the pre selnec days, I don’t think that the manufacturer has captured the original dark blue. Never the less its good to see that a model has at last seen the light of day.

Duncan N Smith

16/09/12 – 06:59

Looks like the model livery is correct. Leigh buses were light blue until a livery change in 1948. More details if you want them in the book ‘The Leyland Buses of Leigh Corporation’ Published by the Leyland Society and authored by Ron Phillips.

Frank Taylor

12/03/14 – 07:36

Oh how I remember with delight, the diversity of the Leigh Corporation fleet. I moved from London to the village of Glazebury, just outside of Leigh in the mid 1960,s and travelled daily into Leigh to work. My favourite bus was the A.E.C. Renown with it’s powerful sounding engine. My favourite journey, on the Renown, was the no.26 from Leigh to Manchester, especially if I managed to acquire an upstairs seat at the front. Another memory from those days is the TIM ticket machine, of which, I have several in my collection, including a 1930’s Leigh Corporation machine. Now resident near Plymouth, I am a member of Plymouth City Transport Preservation Group.

Eric Mansfield

Reading Corporation – AEC Reliance – CRD 152C – 52


Copyright Pete Davies

Reading Corporation
1965
AEC Reliance 2MU3RA
Neepsend B34D

In my comments on the Royal Tiger coach GWM 981, which John Stringer posted, I noted that there were no views of the vehicles of Reading Corporation in the column on the left. The Gallery section does have some views from Roger Cox, however. Even into the RE era and with bodies of different manufacture, Reading continued the use of that “seagull” motif on the front. Here is a view of CRD 152C, the first of my submissions relating to this operator. CRD 152C is an AEC Reliance of the 2MU3RA format with Neepsend B34D bodywork (and the seagull). She was photographed in Winchester on 1 January 1992 during a visit to the annual King Alfred Running Day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

A full list of Reliance codes can be seen here.

04/04/13 – 16:02

Well it could have been a genuine Burlingham saloon – had it not been five years after Burlingham were subsumed in Duple.

David Oldfield

05/04/13 – 05:39

Thank you, David. Wait until you see the RE adorned in the same way! I’ll be submitting a couple of view to Peter in the near future.

Pete Davies

05/04/13 – 05:39

One of the things that fascinates me about our hobby is how operators, even relatively small ones, could obtain special designs from fairly large scale builders of bus bodywork. This basically Burlingham design was unlike anything else East Lancs/Neepsend produced in their normal range but they did so for Reading. I wonder what the price penalty was for such ‘specials’ and how transport managers justified it to their committees.

Philip Halstead

05/04/13 – 08:05

One thing East Lancs were known for was supplying operators with what they wanted – ie they built to “any design” required if it was in their power to do so.

David Oldfield