ECW – Old bus photos

Bristol Omnibus – Leyland PD1/A – LAE 13 – C4044

Bristol Omnibus
1947
Leyland PD1/A
ECW H30/26R

Chris Youhill has mentioned that Samuel Ledgard bought and ran a few of these vehicles in the early 1960’s, which prompted me to rummage around and find this photo, which I took at the Bristol Bus Rally in 1977. I don’t believe that LAE 13 was a Ledgard vehicle, although LAE 12 was.
This unusual chassis/body combination arose because of Bristol Tramways Motor Constructional Works’ inability to meet the urgent post-war demands for Bristol chassis. So, fifty Leyland chassis were bought to fill the gap and keep the ECW production line going. Their contemporary high-bridge body was fitted. They did look very high!
One other member (C4019) of the 50 has survived, just, and is slowly being restored.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

You couldn’t get any nearer than this to turning the clock back could you ?? Below is another picture of LAE 13 and yours truly, taken on October 14th 2007 on the occasion of the Running Day to commemorate the fortieth anniversary of the demise of the Samuel Ledgard undertaking. The very appropriate location is at Otley Bus Station and LAE 12 which Chris H mentions was stationed at Otley depot throughout its Ledgard career. It was also the bus which I had for my very first duty as a driver – a wickedly busy late turn starting in the peak period on a Friday – and although I was naturally suffering from “stage fright” the wonderful vehicle behaved like a dream, “pulled like a trooper”, and kept any of my errors in engine revs and road speed completely quiet and not even a click was heard by the passengers. Here also is a picture of “the real LAE 12” in Leeds. I was already a dedicated Leyland PD1 fan and that Friday was one of the happiest days of my life. The Running Day was also exactly fifty years after I started as a young conductor and so to be able to stand with a vehicle as near as is possible to its memorable twin meant everything to me.

Chris Youhill

Delighted to see the Bristol/Sammy Ledgard PD1, which reminds me of early post war Tilling Group policy.
I believe 100 PD1s were purchased, and spread out among several fleets, including some others with highbridge bodies at Eastern Counties (?).
Tilling also embarked upon a rebodying exercise, including many quite venerable chassis, which placed further demands on ECW, and I wonder if this was why some of the Bristol examples were bodied by BBW (Brislington Bodybuilding Works!). Perhaps someone will have more explanatory detail, but the whole early post war Tilling programme was absolutely fascinating….stick a new body on it, and fit a recond. 5LW, and you had a standard Tilling bus whatever the chassis origin, although the PD1 was not in this category.
I just wish that West Yorkshire had been a bit more involved in these fascinating exercises.

John Whitaker

Glad you liked the picture, John, of what is to me a very special vehicle as you can imagine. We had a total of six former Bristol Leyland PD1s, three each by ECW and BBW.
ECW : KHW 631 KHY 395 LAE 12
BBW : KHW 243 KHW 622 LAE 2
The first five were at Otley Depot while LAE 2 served at Armley where it was eventually prohibited from going on the Leeds to Bradford route due to its habit, when bouncing, of clattering the underside of the railway bridge in Whitehall Road !! Just one of those fascinating little oddities – why wasn’t it based at Otley where its anti railway nature would have been contained ?? We shall never know now.

Chris Youhill

The other major participant in the 100 PD1/As order was Crosville. Crosville also had some Regals which were shared with either Bristol or Western National. I believe they had Beadle Bodies to standard post-war ECW design. Another Crosville strand was the PS1s(?) with Weymann body delivered direct but redirected from a Balfour Beatty/Midland General order. [This is also interesting as BF/MG normally had AEC/Weymann combinations – Leylands occasionally, but rarely, appearing on the list.]

David Oldfield

Interesting comments David re. Crosville, which perhaps was the most un-Tilling of the Tilling companies! Probably because they were part of the BET group prior to the 1942 TBAT switch round, with North Western going the other way, and they therefore did not have any pre -war Bristols apart from a few odds.
I never drove a bus, so Chris`s comments re the Ledgard PD1s were intriguing too. I always picked up vibes about the PD1 being rough and slow. Certainly my recollections in Lytham and with EYMS are not so, but perhaps the different engine mounting on the PD1A had some effect. Did the PD1s of Ledgard from other sources behave as well as the Bristol ones Chris?

John Whitaker

The Crosville AEC Regals had Strachan bodies. JFM 575 is preserved.

Peter Williamson

Peter W, thanks for the correction.
John, I believe you could be correct about PD1A being smoother with their modifications. I do drive buses – but as more of a hobby than our resident professionals like Chris Youhill. I have only driven PD3s and only experienced PD2s and PD3s with STD as a boy.
My only experience of PS1/PD1 is on the preserved rally circuit. They do have a reputation of being rough – but I think this is merely comparing the 7.4 and the 9.8 engines. Personally, I have found them different, rather than rough, and Granville Smith’s PS1/Plaxton running around Helmsley I found to be one of the best and sweetest vehicles that I have ridden on. Could be the driver is a critical factor. […and coming from an AEC man that is praise indeed!!!!!]

David Oldfield

It is most reassuring from the observations of John and David that the allegations of “roughness” are not borne out by present day experience. I think, though, that I may be able to identify the origin of the theory as I remember clearly in 1946 when I was ten years old that my first impression of Samuel Ledgard’s newly delivered half dozen PD1s was of very harsh knocking from the engines. This comparison was, of course, against all the Company’s many TSs/TDs virtually all of which were still in full day service and on top line coaching duties at the time. I do believe that the early “noisiness” of the 7.4 litre engine most probably arose from poor quality diesel in the aftermath of The War, and from the fact that operators’ fitters and engineers were entirely unfamiliar with the tuning required on what was, after all, an entirely new engine in the civilian area. Once the necessary practical experience was in place the engines began to perform in a very potent and civilised manner.
I agree wholeheartedly with David’s praise of Granville Smith’s glorious PS1/Plaxton which for several summers has operated magnificent but tortuous services on the North Yorkshire Moors. Not many sixty year old vehicles can claim to ascend the long and notorious Sutton Bank’s 1 in 4 gradients without a whimper !!
I can promise John that all the Ledgard PS1s/PD1s performed magnificently and smoothly. We had the following, from a quick mental resume :-
NEW 6 PD1s 8 PS1s
Ex BRISTOL 6 PD1s
Ex RIBBLE 4 PD1s (plus 2 “converts” to PD2)
Ex PRESTON 7 PD1s
S/H COACHES 2 PS1s
My personal experience was that the apparent large difference in capacity compared to the 9.8 litre engine was of little consequence, and the delightfully precise behaviour at all times of the PS1/PD1 clutches and gearboxes made them a delight to drive and, acoustically, a real treat in which to travel – or for that matter to issue tickets !!

Chris Youhill

What cruel fate that such Leylands (and their fellow AECs) are reduced to just happy memories! As a postscript, I have read – and heard recounted – that people who worked with and drove these “100” far preferred them to contemporary Bristol K5Gs.

David Oldfield

Would the ‘roughness’ actual/imaginary stem from the fact that pre-war Leylands had indirect oil engines (which were very quiet and smooth) and postwar ones direct injection?
Was it my imagination that a characteristic of post-war Leyland engines was to ‘hunt’ on tickover (run through all cylinders in one go, then pause before repeating the cycle) rather than just have a conventional, even, tickover? Maybe it was another make of engine, or the engine was out of adjustment in some way.

Chris Hebbron

I think you’re right on both counts, Chris H

David Oldfield

I’m afraid Chris H that I haven’t the technical knowledge to express a qualified opinion on “indirect v direct” injection, but I’m sure that your suggestion may indeed be the reason for the difference in noise characteristics between the prewar 8.6 litre engines and their 7.4 litre. successors.
As far as “hunting” goes you are absolutely right, and both the 7.4 and the 9.8 invariably had this habit. At the risk of being ticked off by devotees of the 9.8 I have to say that I always found these to hunt unpredictably and fussily as if they weren’t sure what to do next. On the other hand the 7.4 hunted with metronome accuracy comparable with the movement of a high quality Swiss watch, and in between each six injections would whisper a couple of delightful little refined whistles. If I’m thought there to be a little “over the top” well I’m “guilty as charged yer’ honour” and I admired and enjoyed the PS1s and the PD1s beyond measure.

Chris Youhill

I suppose that the best way to describe direct versus indirect injection sound characteristics would be to say that the latter type ‘knocks’ and the former don’t! In fact, simplistically, it is hard to tell a pre-war Leyland 8.6 diesel engine from a petrol engine.
LAE12 looks much better in Ledgard livery than in the Bristol one, primarily because the all-white upper deck gives the vehicle a much ‘lighter and lower’ look.
PD1’s must have been a small part of virtually every fleet in post-war Britain, either new or second-hand. Even London Transport had 65 of them, with Leyland bodies. When I worked in London in the mid-50’s, they would trundle past my office on their well-worn path on route 38A between Victoria and Loughton (Essex). I would catch one from time to time and enjoy the experience. They were all withdrawn in the mid 50’s and exported to Jugoslavia, and a hard life, to judge from the odd photo I’ve seen taken from there.
Anyway, enough of this rambling – glad I was able to turn the clock back for a short while, Chris Y!

Chris Hebbron

Thanks again Chris H for that clarification. Just a small detail of information about the Ledgard livery – the top deck and lower saloon windows of LAE 12 do indeed look white in the picture, but the colour was actually a very very light grey, the manufacturer’s title being “duck egg blue.” I am fascinated by your memories of London Transport STD 112 – 176 as I was in great admiration of them also as a frequent visitor to London in those days. When travelling from Victoria to the West End I would wait as long as necessary to board one on the 38A and needless to say loved the journey. I’m not sure how many were allocated to Victoria Gillingham Street Depot (GM) but certainly when they were new they often appeared on the tortuous 137 route from Highgate in the north to Crystal Palace in the south – a very long run with some nasty hills here and there. I bet the drivers used to preselector STLs would curse anyone who halted an STD midway up Central Hill at Norwood !! There, I’m rambling now – I do apologise.

Chris Youhill

Chris Y’s description of the E181 (Leyland 7.4) “hunt” is not OTT at all – it is spot on. But oddly, it isn’t universal, at least not in the preservation world. Some hunt more than others, and the one in Philip Thornes’ ex M&D Beadle-Leyland doesn’t hunt at all. I wonder if this may have something to do with the fact that it wasn’t built for civilian use. Apparently it came, unused, straight out of a War Department box.

Peter Williamson

Peter that’s most interesting – I’ve ridden many times on the beautiful vehicle mentioned, and know Philip well, but I never realised from whence the engine came. Also when travelling I’m so in awe with happy memories from the period ambience that the lack of “hunting” has never registered with me !! Thanks though for confirming my general observation about these engines – much appreciated.

Chris Youhill

A very interesting thread, though have to say am not as enthusiastic about the PD1 as others here. Oldham rather than waiting for the PD2 which followed almost immediately in 1947, forged ahead and took 14 PD1s and 50 of the 8ft PD1/3s. They were sluggish and underpowered especially on the unforgiving gradients around that town.
That they were used as driver trainers is no coincidence with their painfully slow gear changes where the revs having died away completely would need pumping up again. It was said by drivers that they could roll a fag between changes.
The observation on Lythams PD1s is however totally correct, quite apart from the flat terrain they worked, they were much livelier with quicker gear changes, and this was all down to the fact that the flywheels had been bored out. This is a mod that other operators may have also adopted hence the differing characteristics between vehicles and operators?
Certainly the sweet natured vehicles encountered nowadays may have much to do with the degree of tlc lavished upon them as opposed to when in service?
Eastern Counties 20 PD1As which were all Gardner 5LW engined served from 1947-64, so a creditable record.
The uneven tickover of the 7.4 E181 engine probably has more to do with the pneumatic governors with which they were fitted than anything else, and the related whistle on idling. Postwar Crossleys had similar idling characteristics for the same reason.

Keith Jackson

I have found the comment I made about Yorkshire Traction PD1’s – on the Smiths Luxury Coaches – Leyland Titan PD1 posting. I was reminded of it by your comment about the revs dropping, Keith – spot on. Compared with Doncaster Corporation Transport buses, they were painfully slow.

Joe

The distinctive ‘hunting’ on idle would more than likely be attributable to the vehicles concerned being fitted with pneumatic governors rather than the more usual mechanical type. In the post-war years CAV and Simms both produced fuel injection pumps which had pneumatic governors as an option, and several manufacturers specified these on some of their diesel engines, including Leyland. Albion was another and used them on its EN250 engine as fitted to their Claymore truck, and Nimbus small single-deck chassis for example. This engine was also fitted to the Bristol SU chassis. Ford Thames Traders fitted with Ford’s own 4-cylinder ‘Cost Cutter’ diesel also sported pneumatic governors, and likewise had that distinctive ‘rise and fall’ tickover. In fact many a Trader front bumper could be heard rattling in perfect harmony with its idling engine!
I can vividly recall as a schoolboy, being fascinated by the tickover of Bradford C T’s EKY- and GKU- registered batches of Leyland Titan PD2s. They had that reassuring ‘hunting’ characteristic, which to my young ears sounded not so much of an affliction, but more a rather contented gentle mechanical “purring”. In later years I would again be treated to “that” tickover when occasionally travelling on one of West Yorkshire’s little Bristol SUL4As – although I couldn’t help thinking in this case that the little 4-cylinder engine was somewhat reminiscent of a coal wagon when idling! They had a tendency to lose dipsticks when new, as the horizontal EN250 engine had a dipstick tube with a quite shallow curve in order to fit neatly under the floor. Apparently the flexible dipsticks had a habit of ‘creeping’ up the tubes due to the vibrations set up on tickover, and over time they would simply pop out of the end!

Brendan Smith

These are all absolutely fascinating observations and opinions from different angles and I am really enjoying reading and learning from them. One thing though does surprise me a little on the aspect of painfully slow gear changes on the PS1s/PD1s and this is that no-one has mentioned an ingenious device called a “clutch stop.” I’m not an engineer so I can’t fully understand how this works, although I believe something akin to brake linings is involved, but on all the Samuel Ledgard examples it was extremely effective – although requiring a degree of confidence, I’ll explain. The system was to declutch once, placing the lever in neutral, and then to very positively and quickly fully depress the clutch whereupon the next gear could be selected silently before the engine revs dropped fully. This was most useful on hills when heavily loaded although there was no need to employ it on the level. When I say confidence was needed this is because any “half hearted” attempt at the procedure would result in a screaming protest like a sawmill, audible for miles around, from the gearbox and those of us with pride in the job soon learnt to do it properly or not at all. To a layman like me it seems obvious that a degree of “design mechanical cheating” must have been involved to enable the gear to be engaged at the wrong engine revs but the clutch stop was an official device which had to be kept, so the fitters explained, finely tuned – or else !!

Chris Youhill

I remember so well the Bradford PD2/3 s as described above!. I could never understand the random gurgle of the tickover which never seemed to reimpose itself on a regular rhythm pattern. Now I know why! This wonderful sound was vividly brought back to my notice last year when I sampled the Wallasey PD2 at Birkenhead. Bradford never had PD1s, but many fleets, it seems to me, were only too keen to get rid. Leicester comes to mind, whereas their PD2s did the best part of a 20 year stint. Were the East Yorkshire PD1s modified in any way, as I remember these as quite nippy on the rural routes from Bridlington to Hornsea.?

John Whitaker

Chris Y- are we talking crash gearboxes here? This sounds like the old technique of double declutching- pedal down, move into neutral: raise revs in neutral, pedal down, engage next gear as revs fall. Not as easy as that sounds. That is why drivers would labour the engine on a hill until stalling loomed.

Joe

Something that hasn’t been mentioned in connection with PD1 performance is overall gearing. I don’t know about the Tilling PD1As, but I do know that Manchester and Oldham’s PD1s both used the highest gearing available, which gave a high top speed but very poor performance on hills, whereas Wigan’s were much lower geared, giving better hill-climbing at the expense of a lower top speed.
The approach to the clutch-stop was very variable throughout the industry. Tilling fleets were often clutch-stop strongholds, with the clutch-stops on Ks and Ls being every bit as effective as on the PD1 when kept in tune. The transmission on the Guy Arab III-V and Daimler CCG also had a clutch-stop, but it was much slower-acting, giving the driver a bit more breathing apace, but still faster than a double declutch.
Returning to that tickover, I wonder if this will bring back some memories:
Diddlydum (shoo-shoo-shoo-shoo)
Diddlydum (shoo-shoo-shoo-shoo)
Diddlydum (shoo-shoo-shoo-shoo)

Peter Williamson

Yes Joe, we are talking about crash gearboxes, but the “clutch stop” procedure is a completely different method to the normal double declutching. I didn’t stress that use of the “clutch stop” was only necessary on upward gear changes to cheat the normal rate of rev loss when taking the foot off the accelerator.

Thank you Peter – I recognised the melody straight away from your description and it will always be one of the top tunes in the automobile acoustic hit parade for me – a brilliant picture in words.

Chris Youhill

Shut me up if I’ve mentioned this before, but Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading had LAE 16 roofless as a tree-lopper. Being that much lighter it flew along and I even had the impression that the axle was higher geared than that of the Leeds JUG PD1s.
Tree-lopping in the quiet lanes west of Reading was very enjoyable, the none-too-laborious task being further lightened by the old hands’ anecdotes of the romantic encounters they had witnessed over the years in the fields below as they gazed down from the lopping deck. I spare you the details… I do agree with what Chris, Peter and others have said about the PD1 clutch-stop: that very heavy flywheel made it essential for up-changes, but the PD1 clutch-stop seemed much less predictable than its AEC, Crossley or Bristol counterpart. Chris Youhill’s “screaming protest like a sawmill” beautifully sums up the price you pay for holding the clutch down for the minutes fraction of a second too long.
One day when I hadn’t much to do I fiddled with the pneumatic governor of JUG 630 and I reckon I got the tickover down to a stable 150rpm, but I put it back before going out again. Oddly enough, I don’t recall any of our 7.4 engines hunting particularly, but they all sounded and “felt” different.

Ian Thompson

Keith Jackson mentions that the Eastern Counties PD1As had Gardner 5LW engines. I never knew this, and am surprised that Leyland would succumb to this deviation! Were they supplied new like this, or converted later by ECOC, and did other Tilling fleets have the 5LW fitted?

John Whitaker

Leyland would never have supplied any bus, at that time, with other than Leyland power. If they were 5LW powered, they had been retro-fitted. As I said above, Leylands were preferred to Bristol K5Gs. It could only have been an expedient.

David Oldfield

08/08/11 – 07:01

Just to correct two misapprehensions. All twenty of the Eastern Counties PD1As had lowbridge 53 seat ECW bodies, and all but one had Leyland six cylinder engines. The first, GPW 346 had a Gardner 5 cylinder engine. There were rumours of ECOC modifications to improve economy with a consequent reduction in performance, and Leyland Motors were not happy!

Nigel Richards

09/08/11 – 18:02

As a recent arrival on the internet and this site had me reminiscing? I was a driver for Bristol Omnibus Co. 1959/1965, and I was based at Eastville Depot where the whole batch of PD1s (less 3 at Lawrence Hill)were allocated, ah yes, I remember them well, getting a little tired though some of them, I loved ’em, they were certainly oddities amongst a great fleet of Bristol/ECW vehicles. The comments about hunting brought back vivid memories as did the talk of clutch stops, I particularly liked the way you could place your right boot “into” the throttle pedal, your heel nestling against the raised lip at the rear of the pedal. I have encountered a couple of them over the years at rallies and running days, and as a plus to all that after transferring to the country services at Marlborough St. Bus Stn in Jan. 1962 in the middle of the Great Snow/whiteout, I think that was the year Wilts and Dorset took over Silver Star of Porton Down, and lo and behold we had 3 Atlanteans on the fleet, initially based at W.S.M. “WESTON”, but then sent to Bristol for use on the Portishead 85 route, it was not my regular rota, I was an O.M.O. driver, but often drove them on overtime duties, my how they could power up the viciously steep Rownham Hill, uncanny how quiet they were with the big 680 engines in the rear ‘bustle’, of course they were not standard, and that being the watchword of the Tilling Group they were not around for long, oh how we missed that power. The reference to Gardner 5s, reminds of an occasion when I was climbing Tog Hill on the A420 one early morning with a Bristol LS, empty, and I was overtaken by an 8 wheeled AEC Regent belonging to Dobsons of Edinburgh I believe, fully loaded with aviation spirit for RAF Lyneham, a master class show of a large under stressed engine walking away with its load no problem. Of course, not many years later we were seeing Daimler Fleetlines zooming about the UK powered by HUGE Gardner 6LXBs, but that’s another story. Years later I was driving a DAF truck, which as we know came about with the collapse of Leyland Bus and Truck, and the emergence big time of Volvo and DAF etc. Thanks for the opportunity to roll back the years

Dave Knapp

02/10/11 – 07:03

Re Chris Hebron’s initial photo and comments about the ex Bristol PD1As, there were initially 150 engine and chassis delivered to the Tilling Group in 1947/8, and 100 of them were equipped with lowbridge ECW bodywork, and sent to 7 different Tilling Group Company’s the other 50 went to Bristol Omnibus where I was a driver at Eastville Depot, there were 25 fitted with ECW highbridge bodies and 25 with BBW highbridge bodies, they were all allocated to my depot apart from 3 or 4, I am not sure which, that were allocated to Lawrence Hill. As I have said on other occasions they were getting a bit tired come the 1960s, but generally speaking they would give a driver a satisfying return for being patient with grasping their “ALIEN” ways, I was quite fond of them, the Leyland sound of the 0600 engine was very welcoming to the ears, it certainly made a change to the usual Bristol/Gardner melodies which abounded in the Bristol streets. I moved to the country services in 1962 and that was my last contact with them, I did spot two of them some years later, they were internal transport at the Filton plant of British Aircraft Corp. where the prototype Concord was being built. The one in the photo, LAE 13/4044, I saw it at a rally at Wroughton nr Swindon, about 10 yrs ago, looked well spruced up and well ready to do “3 times up Oldbury Court” on the 11 service!! The chap that owned it said they were having a spot of trouble with the power steering and the air/con, oh, how we all laughed? I do believe I would enjoy an hour or two on a private road getting reacquainted with a well fettled Leyland Titan PD1A, that would certainly roll back the years!

Dave Knapp

02/10/11 – 10:34

The pre-war (i.e.1939-45) Leyland 8.6 litre oil engine was always a direct injection unit. It had an overhead camshaft and pot cavity pistons, and was governed to the then high speed (for direct injection) of 1900 rpm. It ultimately developed 98 bhp, compared with the 102 bhp at 1700 rpm of the contemporary Gardner 6LW, but it gained a reputation for smoothness and reliability at a time when certain other makes of oil engine were proving to have neither of these qualities. AEC obtained permission to use the pot cavity piston design for their engines, resulting in the direct injection versions of the 8.8 and 7.7 power units.
I always understood that the only difference between the PD1 and the PD1A was the use of Metalastik spring shackles in the latter. The types were otherwise identical in specification. The 100 bhp 7.4 litre E181 was a toroidal cavity engine, and it was certainly rougher and noisier than its predecessor, and, having experienced problems with the flexible engine mounting on the TD7, Leyland reverted to rigid mountings for the PD1. However, the point made by Chris Y about the poor quality post war diesel fuel is surely true. Similarly, modern oil technology is so far advanced compared with those far off times that engine performance today, even for old motors, is very much smoother. The high revving, turbocharged screech boxes of modern times would never have survived more than five minutes on the fuels and oils of 1947.

Roger Cox

20/10/11 – 06:43

Re my comment above dated 09/08/11 – 18:02, I think I am a bit out on the date of the Great Snow, (I am a Vicar of Dibley fan), Jan 1962 should have read Jan 1963, some of the outlying villages, Doynton/Littleton-on Severn/and quite a lot more did not have a bus for weeks, and in spite of this the usual greeting from passengers after a big trek up to the main road to get on the bus was generally cheery and sympathetic to our travails trying to maintain schedules/timetables in such appalling conditions. I still think back to the, joys’ of a 4/5hr stint in the cab of an old Bristol L5G, the raked back side window of the cab to cope with O.M.O. duties, freezing cold, no mod cons, we used to call them “conker boxes”, rackety old crates as they were, I must confess they were in a minority, we mostly had LSs and MWs, which, though not state of the art were a big improvement.

Dave Knapp

28/11/11 – 09:21

Fascinating stuff! I rode many of Manchesters PD1 fleet, numbered 3000 to 3049 or 3050, as they were used on the 50X limited stop schools service from Sale to Manchester Grammar school. The hunting, whenever heard, still brings back memories, and that slow change especially from 3rd to Top gear!–wonderful.
That part of the World being fairly flat, none of the buses I regularly used ever needed to use first gear, which in those circumstances could be regarded as an emergency ratio.
The Gardner 5 cylinder Daimlers, numbered 4000 to 4500 were interesting. Clearly underpowered, but the odd one would seem to go like hell, I wonder if some were retro fitted with a bigger engine?
Finally for now, in peak times in the 1951/2 years Manchester brought out some old Crossleys, one of which was so gutless that it would only just manage to get into top gear and hold about 18/20 mph on a dead level road. But it sounded normal! Happy days–

Mike Plant

03/01/12 – 17:11

It has been really interesting reading all the comments about the PD1. I am lucky enough to own the Warrington PD1 registered EED 5 which I have enjoyed driving and pampering for the last 30+ years. True to form, the E181 engine of EED 5 has that delightfully slow tickover (and so it should) that makes gear selection much easier, and a slow gear change that allows you to roll a cigarette between gears!
Gear changing in hilly areas can be a bit of a challenge and the clutch stop does come in handy for a quick 1st to 2nd change and maybe even a 2nd to 3rd, but you have to be quick and ensure the pedal goes right to the floor. I have ridden on Philip Thornes really nice Beadle/Leyland coach and am really impressed with the attention to detail and excellent turn-out; I did notice that the Beadles engine is set to tick over a lot faster than on mine and wonder if this is simply how they prefer it? Whatever the reason, it has a lovely pedigree and its so nice to see it in service.

Phill Clark

06/02/12 – 07:43

I gained my PSV drivers license on a PD1 with Eastbourne Corporation in 1962 and afterwards drove them in open top form on the seafront service The performance was best described as adequate but I don’t recall them being noticeably rough, fitted with a pneumatic governor which gently whistled I realised after a while that when it reached a certain pitch the gears would engage very easily and silently without using the clutch making for a less tiring day but the change was always very slow, some drivers said they could roll a cigarette while waiting for the revs to die down (metaphorically speaking of course) ah happy days.

Diesel Dave

06/02/12 – 09:28

Phill, thank you greatly for your fastidious preservation OF EED 5 – a vehicle which I’ve long admired when I’ve seen it. I’m in no way a traitor to my native county of Yorkshire but, similarly, I’ve never been a party to the rivalry between the “red and white roses” and have always found all aspects of public transport west of the Pennines to be utterly absorbing. If I see EED 5 anywhere this season I shall make myself known if I may.

Chris Youhill

06/02/12 – 09:29

I’ve driven PD2’s & 3’s but never a PD1, but it sounds as if the gear change technique is much the same as the first vehicles I ever drove, they were Guy Arabs with the slow revving Gardner 5LW, very slow change up and loads of revs and quick change down, and the whole world heard about it if you got it wrong.

Ronnie Hoye

06/02/12 – 13:47

I drove PD2’s and PD3’s at Halifax from 1973 until the last was withdrawn in the early 80’s, and then as an Instructor I still regularly drove the two PD2 trainers until they went in 1990. Most operators had withdrawn their PD1’s by then (Halifax never had any anyway) but during my involvement in bus preservation in the 1970’s I drove both a PD1 and a PS1 on several occasions. Having heard all the adverse comments about them over the years, especially no less than Geoffrey Hilditch’s recollections of how difficult he found them to drive in Manchester, I had approached them with apprehension, but was surprised to find how pleasant and satisfying these two actually were.
As Diesel Dave says, the trick with up changes was to listen to the wheezing sound of the pneumatic governor dying down, then as it just started to whistle, quickly snick it in – with or without clutch. These constant-mesh boxes had less movement in the gate, and required little physical effort, unlike the heavy synchromesh PD2’s and PD3’s. In hilly areas they needed a few more revs when moving off up a gradient compared to what I was used to, but once on the go they were surprisingly nifty performers – especially the PS1. I liked them a lot – full of character.
One unusual bus we had in our group was a PD2/1 which was fitted with the PD1 type gearbox. The original synchromesh boxes had begun to fail dramatically in many fleets after only a short time in service, and for a while until the problem could be sorted out, Leyland began to fit the constant mesh unit in some PD2’s. There was no change in model designation, and little publicity was given to the matter – so not many enthusiasts knew about it until comparatively recent years. Those in the know about our preserved example used to rather naughtily not mention the fact when allowing someone else to drive it, then watch the hapless driver struggle whilst they fell about laughing ! Very silly, really (I wasn’t one of them I hasten to add). It was also a nice bus to drive though, with obviously more ‘go’ than a PD1, the only drawback being a severe transmission judder on moving off – something that many early PD2’s suffered from.

John Stringer

28/07/12 – 08:49

I agree with Phill Clark, who’s PD1 was the first I ever rode on as a youngster way back in the ’80s from Brighton back to Battersea if memory serves.
Many years later I am the delighted owner of Plymouth PD1 DDR 414.
After many years of driving various different PD2s & 3s I have to say I find the Driver Fatigue Factor of a PD1 is much less…

Bob A

02/04/19 – 07:00

Just a note to say that I saw LAE 13 on Sunday in safe hands and dry storage but under fairly expensive body repair. It looks like it might be some time before it is back on the road but it is still sound and impressive..I hope the work will be done one day.

Richard Leaman

03/04/19 – 08:34

The Group restoring LAE 13 are like many groups in that their volunteer base is becoming narrower and getting older so that with their running buses as well restoration takes a back seat and becomes an elongated process. It probably needs around 1000 man hours max to complete but there has only been minimal progress in the last 2 years. The above comment is not meant as a criticism just a statement of fact.

Roger Burdett

05/04/19 – 06:55

This string has started me off reminiscing.
My earliest experience of buses was the village’s three or four times a day utility Bedford OB with wooden slatted seats on the Wrington to Clevedon service. Even then my latent engineering mind was intrigued by the manual folding door which was cunningly designed to shoot closed as the bus pulled away and naturally crashed open as the brakes were applied.
My interest in buses began around 1948 when travelling in the family Vauxhall ten through Bristol, I began to see lots of new shiny green and cream buses and gleaming â€œLAEâ€ registration plates with low numbers (and yes I did eventually spot LAE1) and these for some reason grabbed my continuing attention.
Up until then what I could see from my low head height was a motley selection of red, blue and green double deckers as we travelled in the bombed city. Then I noticed that some of these new buses had LEYLAND on their radiators and others had Bristol. I didn’t think much of that until we had a family holiday in Blackpool which meant driving up the A38 and through Kidderminster and seeing all sorts of extraordinary buses in different colours. Getting nearer to Blackpool I noticed a few that had RIBBLE on their radiator and thought that they looked rather like Leyland radiators. This caused me some confusion and I erroneously concluded that those with Bristol must also be Leylands with the operators name replacing the manufacturers! I managed to ignore the fact that the radiators were different outline shapes and the driver’s windscreen bottom was horizontal on Leylands and drooping on Bristols.
Around that time Ian Allan published the Bristol Tramways fleet list and being young and liking things new, I could not understand why it was printed with a blue and yellow cover! By the time I discovered it, Bristol Tramways had already duplicated three or four updates available free from their offices in St Augustine’s Parade. These were needed with the reorganisation around Stroud and Cheltenham which caused lots of odd vehicles to come and go rather quickly. All was now revealed and I was able to work out the differences between Bristol and Leyland and ECW, Duple and BBW and eventually ten years later ended up as a Tilling Group trainee graduate engineer!
The LAEs also started my interest in registration letters and I could eventually remember most of the two letter county / borough one and two letter allocated letters and still find myself (mis-) interpreting the final three letters of present day plates as if they were issued in the heritage system!
All 50 of the Leyland LAEs and the earlier vehicles of the batch with K registrations (far less exciting!) were allocated to Eastville depot in those days indicated by a little white round plate screwed to the front panel. Later in life, some of the ECW bodies returned to Lowestoft for a mid-life restoration and were noticeable on return as they had regained the black lining between the cream bands and the green (never applied by the company at repaint) and the upper-deck front bulkhead had gained shiny ribbed aluminium covering instead of lino.
Sorry to bore you, but I feel better for adding this to the archive!

Geoff Pullin

06/04/19 – 08:11

Just brilliant to have that sort of post-reminded me of my teen years.

Roger Burdett

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

12/08/19 – 08:00

Thank you for a very interesting read. As a small boy I was struck by the sound of so many London Transport green double deckers. They would hunt at idle, getting faster and faster as they pulled away, until they finally got to 30MPH and the engines ran smoothly. Almost as though they had invented a missing cylinder, to cut back in only at speeds. With this amazing Internet, I’ve read that others noticed this too.

H Rogers

Southdown – Leyland Tiger – HCD 449 – 1249

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1947
Leyland Tiger PS1/1
ECW C31R

HCD 449 is a Leyland Tiger PS1/1 with an ECW C31R bodywork (with door!) and dates from 1947, when it joined Southdown. We see it at an open day at the Brijan Tours depot in Curdridge – just outside Botley – on 22 April 2012. These open days were always well-attended, collecting money for local charities, normally the Hampshire & Isle Of Wight Air Ambulance. Sadly, Brijan closed down in 2015.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/04/16 – 06:15

Superb in every way.

Ian Thompson

29/04/16 – 07:56

Is this another post which will spark off the old debate about DP v Coach specification? Southdown classed them as coaches but the body shell is unmistakeably bus with just a little additional brightwork embellishment. That apart it is a superb looking vehicle especially with the chromed radiator surround nicely polished.

Philip Halstead

29/04/16 – 14:29

Thanks for your comment, Ian!

Pete Davies

29/04/16 – 14:29

This particular combination of already handsome ECW body with Leyland PS1 chassis has always been particularly pleasing to me as an ardent admirer of both components.
If ever there was a vehicle where everything looks “just right” this is one. Many operators had examples of these but as far as I know only the Southdown ones had half drop windows (and very tidy louvres??)

Chris Youhill

30/04/16 – 06:28

A very interesting thought, Chris Y. I’ve just had a trawl through the contributions in respect of ECW bodies. Among them, there are plenty of single deckers, but none have the half-drop windows. Is one of the Southdown aficionados able to tell us if that operator was indeed the only one to have this combination?

Pete Davies

30/04/16 – 12:16

I am sure that I have travelled on an ECW-bodied Hants & Dorset Bristol LS B35R with half-drops in the late 1950s.

David Wragg

01/05/16 – 05:55

My favourite Southdown vehicles. As a small child in the late 50’s, I used to travel into Storrington on the service 71 which was usually operated by the 15xx East Lancs bodied Royal Tigers. Occasionally, one of these magnificent machines would turn up much to my delight. (They were downgraded from express duties to bus work after 1955).
Some were fitted with bus seats and full size destination boxes front and rear. Others remained as built. Regarding the half drop windows, there is a story that they were delivered with sliders, but altered at Portslade works before entering service. Not sure if this is truth or folklore, but Southdown had a thing about half drop windows, and all pre 1956 vehicles had them.

Roy Nicholson

01/05/16 – 17:20

Roy, according to MG Doggett & AA Townsin’s lovely book ‘ECW 1946-1965’, it would appear that Southdown had accepted most features of ECW’s ‘express’ design on its batch of Tigers, including the trim along the waistline. Interestingly though the authors go on to state: “However, there seems to have been some unease about the opening windows from early on. Some, at least, entered service with the then new ECW standard sliding vents (there being photographic evidence of body 1644 at Victoria thus), but body 1638 had much deeper sliding vents while 1640 (Southdown 1246) had full-depth sliding windows as built”. An accompanying three-quarter rear view of 1246(GUF746) clearly shows the full-depth sliders, which gave the vehicle something of an ‘export model’ look. The text continues: “All of these options were considered unsatisfactory, and special half-drop windows conforming to ECW outline were fitted within a few months”. The view of 1246 with full-depth sliders shows it without the louvres above the windows, so were these fitted as vehicles received their half-drop windows? Whatever the case, there is no doubt that they were handsome machines, enhanced by the application of Southdown’s distinctive livery. Beautiful.

Brendan Smith

02/05/16 – 06:44

Brendan, thanks for the information confirming the story about the half drop windows. I will keep my eyes open for a copy of said book.

Roy Nicholson

02/05/16 – 06:44

Many thanks for your further comments, folks.

Pete Davies

03/05/16 – 07:09

A real favourite of mine, especially since I once travelled on one, with my mum, back from Southsea to Kingston, in 1953. I never thought of it other than a coach, especially so as it bore the ‘coach’ script on the side. The odd ones were always the utility open-topped Guy Arab II’s who also bore ‘coach’ script, not really deserving it, although I was fond of them!

Chris Hebbron

04/05/16 – 06:21

Chris, your comment confirms my recollection that these ECW bodied PS1s were the ones used on the London – Gosport coach service that I travelled on several times as a kid between 1949 and 1952. I recall the first time I saw one before getting on it in Gosport, and marvelling at its smart appearance. Having been a great fan of the Maidstone and District pre-war Tigers when previously living in Kent, I looked forward to being treated to the glorious musical sounds that the word ‘Leyland’ had come to mean to me. Oh, how the PS1 disappointed – like hearing Stockhausen after Sibelius. The E181 engine had a very harsh rattle, even if it propelled the coach along adequately. Back in the early days of Buses Illustrated, there used to be a regular column called ‘From The Driver’s Seat’ by a certain T.A. Dalton, who, I think, worked for United Automobile. He was consistently disparaging about the E181 engine, but our own OBP expert, Chris Youhill, takes a completely opposite view, and none of us, I’m sure, would challenge Chris’s unparalleled practical knowledge on the subject. Like the Crossley and Daimler engines of the early post war period, the E181 was probably best suited to single deck applications, and the PS1 continued to be the standard Leyland saloon bus offering after the PS2 had appeared.

Roger Cox

05/05/16 – 06:53

Many thanks Roger, and I must say though that my impression of the E181 engines was as unfavourable as anyone else’s when they first appeared in 1945/6. I think initially the stark contrast with the lusty but silky smooth prewar 8.6 litre unit hit us all very forcibly, and secondly, although I have no technical knowledge on the matter, I do think that fitter unfamiliarity and poor quality fuel contributed to that harsh “knock” which they displayed. In my experience they became much more mellow and delightful in later years for whatever reason and had remarkable power when properly “tuned and fed” and driven for their 7.4 litres. No use expecting them to pull with trolleybus like power at ridiculously low road speeds in the higher ratios – that’s where proper use of the very precise gearboxes was essential – oh there now, I’m drooling again. I often think of the occasion when I was just at the start of a very busy late Saturday duty when the AEC Regent V suffered a flat rear tyre and was changed over with JUM 376, one of the original half dozen bought new in 1946. The apologetic but understanding fitter promised to return the Regent within the hour with a new tyre – I said that I’d rather keep 376 for the rest of the duty and he agreed – I had a lovely evening but we were both lucky to get away with it as, if the eagle eyed manager had spotted on Monday morning that we’d un-necessarily sacrificed 65 seats for 58 we’d have been for the high jump. In the event of course we never left anybody all evening – did somebody mutter something about “eight standing” ?? – never heard them !!

Chris Youhill

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Leopard – 1882 WA – 3082

Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1961
Leyland Leopard L1
ECW C41F

This was one of the final batch of Leopards for the Sheffield C fleet with Eastern Coachworks body of the same style as contemporary Bristol MW vehicles being delivered to Tilling Companies.
Delivered as fleet number 1882, it was became 3082 in the 1967 renumbering scheme. The bus originally had a hinged coach door but had been modified with folding doors and hence suitable for one man operation by the time of this photograph. Note Burlingham bodied 1008 alongside still has its original coach door.
3082 was withdrawn when the Joint Omnibus Committee was wound up in 1970 and passed to Todmorden Joint Omnibus Committee as their fleet number 13. When the Todmorden undertaking was merged with that of Halifax in August 1971 the bus became Halifax fleet number 323.
This was in the future when the photograph was taken on a snowy 9th February 1969 on the parking area at Sheffield Central Bus Station prior to operating the 1620 service 44 to Bakewell via the roundabout route taking in Ladybower and Bamford.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

08/08/11 – 07:22

These were always handsome beasts, in their original form. I never remember them with their folding doors. It made them far easier to use as “OMO” buses and, although it did spoil their looks, it didn’t do as much damage as a similar exercise did to SUT’s ground breaking first Panorama bodied Reliances.

David Oldfield

26/08/11 – 07:16

Calderdale JOC inherited three of these from Todmorden JOC – 1880/1/2 WA, and numbered them 321-323. A short while after the merger/takeover, 323 was transferred to Halifax (Elmwood) Garage where it remained until withdrawal. Its most regular haunt seemed to be on ex-YWD OMO route 2 to Keighley, though it could turn up anywhere.
I was a crew driver only (i.e. not OMO) at the time so did not drive it regularly, but I recall having it a couple of times for afternoon school services when the Garage Foreman was struggling for buses for the PM output. It seemed to be higher geared than the indigenous Halifax Leopards and was hard work to get going on local, hilly stop-start work like this, but loped along in fine style once it got into its stride on the open road, for which it was more suited.
The Halifax Weymann Leopards had quite basic bodies and were extremely noisy inside, but these ECW ones were well finished and very much quieter and more refined.

John Stringer

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Leopard – 1881 WA – 3081

Copyright Roger Cox

Sheffield Corporation
1961
Leyland Leopard L1
ECW C41F

Here is a colour shot of 1881 WA, No. 3081, a sister vehicle to the Ian Wild posting of 1882 WA, No. 3082 in June 2011. The photo was taken in the early part of 1970, though I cannot now identify the location. As John Stringer says in a comment to 1882 WA this bus passed to the Calderdale fleet via Todmordon JOC together with its two stable mates, 1880/2 WA. I always admired this ECW “MW” body style for its restrained elegance and excellent finish, well above the standards of some of the contemporary “commercial” competitors.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

15/01/12 – 07:21

Agree fully with Roger about the ECW body. Although I’m a Burlingham and Weymann man, I always thought the ECW Leopards were the best looking of the lot in Sheffield. [This ought to be tagged Sheffield JOC – they weren’t owned by the Corporation.]
I went to music college in Manchester in 1971 – by which time the 48 was taking the Stocksbridge, Flouch, Woodhead route to Manchester. With the disbandment of the JOCs, although technically a joint route with North Western, by 1971 only NWRCC were running the mileage. 1968/70 AEC Swifts were also running the 48 in the last months of operation.
I suspect the photo was taken on the Manchester side of the Pennines. By the way it’s leaning I’m tempted to suggest that maybe it’s leaving Ashton Bus Station?

David Oldfield

15/01/12 – 12:05

I well remember these buses along with the Weymann and Burlingham bodied examples working the 48 Manchester service. They used to have a 15 minute refreshment stop at The Dog & Partridge at Bordhill, a mile up the road from Flouch. During the 1950’s and 60’s my aunt and uncle kept this pub and I used to spend my summer school holidays there. Several times in the late sixties the friendly crews would take me to Manchester with them or I would go to Sheffield with my aunt for an afternoon out, we never paid any fares!
I still have a letter the Sheffield General Manager sent them thanking them for the hospitality they had shown the crews and passengers over the years when they left the pub in 1968.
I don’t ever remember it being a joint service with NWRCC at this time though.

Eric

15/01/12 – 12:12

The location is definitely Ashton Bus Station. The attached photo shows the same backdrop. The pub which is the most prominent of the building is the Ladysmith. The view has changed significantly with the building of a new civic centre on the open land in the near background and the complete remodelling of the bus station.
The bus is former SHMD 77, later renumbered 108 and (as seen here) SELNEC 5068. This bus lasted longer in SELNEC days than might be expected and is shown here on 6th August 1971. It is an Atkinson PL745H with Northern Counties B34+27C bodywork. The present tense is relevant as the bus survives in preservation, albeit not very actively (I repainted it in 1976 and it never ran so adorned!). My previous negative (which I didn’t choose as it doesn’t show the background as well) shows it overtaken by Ashton 44, a front-entrance PD2 which is also preserved.

David Beilby

15/01/12 – 15:00

I may have said it before but it surprises me that this service hasn’t been restored. Presumably there was a time when it was unviable commercially, but today with vast numbers of people, particularly students, travelling across the Pennines and the rail service bursting at the seams, I would have thought it could be a lucrative service now. With Stagecoach having a presence in Manchester and Sheffield (and Barnsley too) the logistics are there although perhaps the fact that they are involved in part of the rail service precludes them from doing it.

Chris Barker

19/01/12 – 05:39

I’m sure the 48 wasn’t in the North Western timetable when I lived in Manchester (up until 1968), unlike the other two Sheffield-Manchester services, the (X)39 via Snake and (X72) via Castleton. Could it be that it never was a joint service, but was taken over by North Western when SJOC disappeared?

Peter Williamson

19/01/12 – 10:54

North Western took it over sometime 1970/71 following the disbandment of the JOCs. They were sole operator by the time I started my student days in September 1971. [A measly two round trips a day during the week.] It was part of agreement with some routes so that the Corporation could “keep” routes – even if they didn’t “run” them. By the end, I think the joint fiction had ended in fact.

David Oldfield

22/01/12 – 15:55

When the Sheffield JOC was disbanded, 48 became a joint route for the first time. The PSV Circle fleet list suggests that Yorkshire Traction became a joint operator, along with Sheffield Corporation and North Western, but, if so, this would just have been for licensing purposes as I’m fairly sure they never ran on the route.

Geoff Kerr

23/01/12 – 07:26

You’re absolutely right, Geoff – and I also remember the Tracky connection, but they never actually ran it.

David Oldfield

24/01/12 – 15:49

The writing was on the wall by November 1969. The 48 was still running, according to the Sheffield Transport time table, as One Man Operated service, the timetable notation of “subject to alteration” said it all. I have wonderful memories from the 1940’s of the 48 when it was not unknown for a convoy of 2/3 Weymann bodied Leylands to depart from the old Midland Railway Station. Tea and buns at the Dog & Partridge were all part of the treat. We and others did our family clothes shopping in Manchester after the Luftwaffe had done a demolition job on the Sheffield City Centre

Jerry Wilkes

30/01/12 – 16:26

Hi, I have a South Yorks fare book, issue 1, August 1974. It lists all the routes operated at that time. Is it of use to anyone? Now I have found this site, I will post many memories & questions on busses in the 50s & 60s. My dad was a bus driver on the 33, 34,35,36 bus routes out of Bramall Lane depot. He used to do the 12 Chesterfield route.

Andy Fisher

31/01/12 – 07:57

Andy. Another Sheffielder. Welcome. The West Yorkshire lot are a friendly enough bunch – but I think they still outnumber us!

David Oldfield

01/05/12 – 20:05

I have many happy memories of The Dog and Partridge !! Never travelled there by bus, unless we did so when I was very young and I have forgotten. However, when I was growing up my paternal grandparents had many relatives living in Lancashire, particularly around the St. Helens area and we always used to make a refreshment stop at that pub, in both directions when travelling from the Bircotes/Harworth area to Lancashire. I distinctly remember the ham sandwiches, which were, by far, for some reason, the best I had ever tasted at the time. They must have been good, I can almost taste them now, and that was 50+ years ago. Thank you all for mentioning this pub, brings back so many happy memories, and the last thing I expected when perusing a bus enthusiasts website.

Trevor Evans

Southern Motorways – Guy GS – MXX 343 – Ex LTE GS 43

Copyright Roger Cox

Southern Motorways
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

Here is a picture of one of the ex LTE GS type Guy Specials operated by Basil Williams of Emsworth during the 1970s, who then traded as “Southern Motorways”. In the week I “drove” a desk at London Country back then, and, to keep my hand in, I used to do a spot of driving for independents at weekends. One of these was North Downs Rural Transport, which, having taken over the business of A. T. Brady (T/A Brown Motor Services), was then based at Forest Green, Surrey. In March 1972, circumstances left North Downs with a vehicle shortage, and arrangements were made with Basil Williams to hire one of his GS buses. I travelled down to Emsworth on a Saturday with a colleague to collect the vehicle, and we were both less than impressed when the bus we were given, GS 43, MXX 343, was started up. The density of the exhaust smoke would have done credit to a Pre Dreadnought at Jutland, and, even allowing for the fact that the Perkins P6 always sounded like a bucket full of nails being shaken about, the racket from the engine was deafening. We expressed our disquietude to Mr Williams, and I remember his response to this day – “If anyone says that it’s knocking, then you can tell them that it’s just had its Annual”. We set off back to Surrey in the thing, travelling hopefully rather than expecting to arrive, but our minimal optimism evaporated with each passing mile. The bus struggled painfully and overheated repeatedly up the merest of gradients, and it was on one of the recuperative rests to allow it to cool down that I took this picture. Such was the noise of the vehicle when in motion that even ancient rustics spotted walking far in front of us in the distance, whose hearing faculties must surely have diminished over the years, swung round in alarm on our approach. Eventually, after an interminable journey, we arrived back at Forest Green, and I thankfully left for my home at Farnborough. I subsequently learned that, when despatched on service on the following Monday, the GS failed totally less than a mile from the North Downs Depot. By this time, all patience had been lost, and Basil Williams was told in succinct terms to come and collect the vehicle
There is so much to tell about Mr Williams and his Hants and Sussex ventures, but I will leave that till later.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

22/09/11 – 06:17

At least he provided a rather nice comprehensive destination blind!

Chris Barker

22/09/11 – 14:02

Ref. the destination blind – yes, I’ve always thought that they seem very bespoke and comprehensive for a country independent. Did they get LT to make them as part of their purchase deal? Also, I’ve got a photo of a GS in Midhurst showing route 21. Did they have a large network or did they route share with Southdown/Aldershot & District?

Paul Haywood

23/09/11 – 06:23

I very much doubt that LTE made up the blinds for the Basil Williams fleet. From its inception, relations between Hants and Sussex and the surrounding major operators – Southdown, Aldershot and Distriot and London Transport – were forever fraught with deep suspicion, and no route sharing would ever have been considered. It was not until the Fowler Act that liberalised Road Service Licensing that Basil Williams was really able to operate free of constant Traffic Court battles with his neighbours. This legislation was beneficial to the industry, which hitherto was fettered by the absurdity of proving need for a service. (The subsequent ridiculous Ridley deregulation Act of 1985 was devised purely to flog off NBC and local authority public transport operations as quickly as possible, and private interest was stimulated by tearing up entirely all the public service obligations placed upon an operator by earlier legislation. Nowadays, operators can run what they like, when they like, and charge what they like for it.)
Route 21 ran Midhurst-Heyshott-Ambersham- Selham-Graffham-Petworth, but it underwent several changes throughout its existence. The best book by far on the extremely complicated Hants and Sussex saga is the one by Alan Lambert, and it is worth trying to get a copy. I have seen copies advertised on Amazon and Ebay.

Above is a photo taken in the Emsworth depot on the same day that we collected GS 43. Unfortunately, the yard was deeply in shade, and I have had to “Photoshop” the picture rather heavily to make it usable. From the left may be seen GS 75 MXX 375, GS 22 MXX 322 and GS 43 MXX 343, plus another off camera to the right. It is interesting to note that 22 and 75 were withdrawn before 43, which lasted until 1974, which makes one wonder what state they were in.

Roger Cox

23/09/11 – 17:37

Fascinating, Roger – many thanks. I will certainly try to get a copy of the Hants & Sussex book as they sound to have been a really maverick outfit. However, I’m still intrigued by the high route numbers. Did they really have up to 25 routes?

Paul Haywood

24/09/11 – 07:20

Paul, over the entire lives of the Basil Williams/Hants and Sussex companies, the route numbers went up to the remarkable figure of 51, with some gaps in the sequence, but these were offset by some “A” and “B” suffixes. During WW2, in 1943, a certain Cecil Walling T/A Silver Queen Bus Service agreed to sell his business to Basil Williams. Mr Williams formed a new limited liability company called Silver Queen Motor Services Ltd. and applied, entirely reasonably, for the permit (Defence Permits replaced Road Service Licences during the war) to be transferred from Mr. Walling to his new company. Southdown objected to the transfer, and this objection was upheld, leaving Mr Williams with a new company without any business. The proposed purchase did not then proceed, and Mr Walling retained his permit until he sold out to Southdown at the end of that year. Basil Williams never forgot this episode, and in all his subsequent takeovers of other businesses he formed limited liability companies using the same company names and with the same directors, to whom all the RSLs were transferred without trouble, and then he replaced the old directors with himself and others within his empire. Thus grew the perplexing multiplicity of company names within the Hants and Sussex setup:
Hants and Sussex; Liss and District: Southsea Royal Blue; Empress Coaches Stockbridge; Triumph Coaches Southsea; Blakes Tours of Plymouth; Glider & Blue; Glider Coaches; B.S. Williams Ltd; White Heather Travel; Sunbeam Coaches Loxwood; F.H. Kilner; Southern Motorways.
Alan Lambert’s book unravels this labyrinthine tale in a masterly fashion, and is a masterpiece of its kind.

Roger Cox

24/09/11 – 11:35

Wow! I’ve just found a copy on Amazon and bought it. Many thanks for lifting the lid sufficiently for me to delve further.

Paul Haywood

25/09/11 – 07:14

Having read my copy of Alan Lambert’s ‘Hants & Dorset’ book again, I’m amazed at the bureaucracy involved with so many parties to do with route applications/transfers, increases/reductions in fares/service frequency, etc and how so much of it was tied up with petty squabbling and so little with giving good customer service. We may not be entirely happy with de-regulation, but it seems, in many ways, a better system.

Chris Hebbron

25/09/11 – 20:39

That is absolutely right ChrisH, permission had to be sought for even the most insignificant alterations, such as to change the starting point of an excursion. All these applications were then published in ‘Notices and Proceedings’ issued by the Traffic Commissioners either weekly or fortnightly, I cannot remember which, to allow any possible objections. Excursions, Tours and Express services had to be licensed in each traffic area they traversed even if they were just passing through! Most of the larger companies had specially printed ‘Notice of Objection’ forms stating their reasons and typically these would be;
1) The application would abstract traffic from existing facilities provided by ourselves
2) The application would cause unnecessary and wasteful competition
3) The application is unnecessary and undesirable in the public interest
4) Generally as may be adduced from evidence given at any public hearing held in connection with the application.
Number 3 particularly, I think is quite unbelievable but it was common practice for the larger operators to see themselves as judge of what was best for the passenger and very often this amounted to preventing people from travelling! Even the railways could object and often this resulted in a limitation on the number of vehicles which could be operated, regardless of demand. In whose interest the Traffic Commissioners operated is a matter of debate but it was by no means necessarily the travelling public!

Chris Barker

27/09/11 – 06:41

I see that three of this batch ended up in Travellers hands with predictable results..all destroyed! They are MXX 373,354 and 350. You can see pictures of their fading years here…. //www.travellerhomes.co.uk/?p=9231
From the comments above, maybe they were not missed!

Richard Leaman

27/09/11 – 06:45

For about ten years, I handled almost all the Traffic Court work for London Country, which included acting as advocate for the company at Traffic Commissioners’ Hearings (colloquially known as Traffic Court). Many operators believed that legal representation was required to pursue a case before the Traffic Commissioners – surprisingly, even Geoffrey Hilditch seems to have held this misapprehension. I am not a lawyer, and the only occasions upon which legal representation was employed were joint applications or objections with other operators, and applications for fares increases (which consisted of putting forward loads of statistical and financial bumph proving a need for increased revenue). On all other applications/objections submitted by the company, I was the representative for the company, and usually found myself contesting with solicitors or barristers acting for opposing parties. I won far more cases than I lost, because the main factor was a knowledge of the bus industry and the relevant legislation (mainly the Road Traffic Act 1930, much of which still applied, and the Transport Act 1968). Lawyers, including QCs, didn’t have that knowledge, and their painful ignorance of the subject frequently became clear when arraigned before the Commissioner. Having said all this, I, too, believed that the legislation and procedure was absurdly outdated and loaded in favour of big operators. This was remedied by Norman Fowler’s Transport Act 1980 which deregulated coach services and changed the emphasis of Road Service Licensing in favour of applicants. This made the old practice of blocking competition by objection a thing of the past, but still laid public service obligations upon operators. This was assuredly in the interests of the public. Ridley’s 1985 Act was designed solely to destroy public ownership by privatising NBC and local authority undertakings, invariably at a fraction of the true value. Ridley’s knowledge of the industry could have been written on the back of a postage stamp, underneath the Lord’s Prayer, and he couldn’t have cared less. Total deregulation did not meet the needs of the travelling public, and left us with the overpriced monopolistic shambles that afflicts us today.

Roger Cox

27/09/11 – 11:15

That’s telling it as it is, Roger – but I do agree.

David Oldfield

11/05/13 – 08:59

I have a photo (provided by someone from Reading) of an open charabanc (possibly mid-late 1930s) with the words Silver Queen painted just below the windscreen. Someone has mentioned that there was a company called Cox’s Silver Coaches in Northumberland Avenue, Reading, Berkshire in existence at about that time. Would anyone know if there is a link between the charabanc and the company and if Roger Cox – a contributor to this website – is a descendent of the company?

Jim B-P

11/05/13 – 12:10

Thx, Chris B and Roger, for your comments, which passed me by until now – must’ve been away for a few days. You inner experiences are very interesting and it is definitely a pity that Norman Fowler’s ‘middle way’ didn’t remain. Your comments certainly show up the self-serving nature of the 1930 Act, especially point 3 of the Notice of Objection forms. Of course, the public was quite unaware of what was going on behind virtually closed doors.

Chris Hebbron

11/05/13 – 18:01

I have to disappoint Jim B-P, I’m afraid. I have no familial connections with the Reading area. Continuing the discussion about the 1985 Ridley Act, the big groups are now driven entirely by a lust for huge profit margins to satisfy the City. The primary objective is that of keeping the share price as high as possible. Locally, Stagecoach has left significant communities in Cambridgeshire with limited service or none at all in its pursuit of big margins. Two years ago, the Stagecoach group returned £340 million to its shareholders, with Brian Souter himself taking £51 million, and his sister, Ann Gloag, £37 million, yet the fares increases continue to pile in year upon year. Making a reasonable return is no longer the name of the game for the heavyweights, and the concept of public service has become a joke. Thankfully, some smaller operators still show how it can and should be done. Around here we have Delaine and Norfolk Green, both of whom have stepped in – Delaine in Market Deeping and Norfolk Green in Kings Lynn – where the avaricious national groups have given up their pursuit of their (many) pounds of flesh.

Roger Cox

12/05/13 – 06:58

So, Basil Williams: valiant entrepreneur battling the “big boys” in the interests of the travelling public, or under-capitalised and over-extended and out to make a name/empire for himself – what’s the verdict? To me, there seem to be a lot of parallels between Basil Williams and Julian Peddle: over the span of 20+ years I’ve experienced Julian Peddle’s operations in Burton-upon-Trent, Colchester, and Milton Keynes, and I can’t say I was impressed. It would seem to me – both from the pictures of the GSs (nicely turned out, nice livery, good destination blinds), and from Alan Lambert’s book – that Basil Williams tried to present a “big company” image (Hants & Sussex) without ever having had the resources to back it up. Some small independents did manage to do that quite successfully: off the top of my head – West Wales, South Notts, South Yorkshire, Birch (?) . . . Gosport & Fareham/Provincial was I think the last remaining passenger carrying company of a larger group that had diversified, and Jones (Aberbeeg) and Moores (Kelvedon), whilst substantial concerns, were clearly (and defiantly?) independent.

Philip Rushworth

12/05/13 – 09:30

Ah, Julian Peddle. He adopts the technique of a wholesale business in the bus industry, buying up companies for short periods of operation and then selling them on. Huntingdon can be added to Philip’s list of Mr Peddle’s “successes”, and he is still buying up under the Centrebus banner. Locally, Kimes has now fallen into his clutches, and it shows. I agree that there are some parallels with Basil Williams, but, for all its undoubted faults, the old Road Service Licensing system did act as a brake upon the activities of the less dependable elements in the industry. We now have a complete free for all, with no controls whatsoever upon any buccaneers in the business. Also, unlike the rail, air and holiday industries, the bus passenger now has no protective legislation over fares and services whatsoever.

Roger Cox

13/05/13 – 07:38

I’m in complete agreement with Roger’s comments about the profiteering of the big groups. I was in Torquay at the weekend and when I left there wasn’t a convenient train up the branch to Newton Abbot so I thought I’d take the bus instead. Stagecoach, quite well presented I do admit but when I asked for a single ticket I was staggered to be charged £3.70 for a journey of less than thirty minutes! It appears to be the norm now though, TrentBarton, still technically a private concern, have become one of the most expensive bus companies in England. The tenet seems to be; we provide something akin to a taxi service, let’s charge something akin to taxi fares!

Chris Barker

14/05/13 – 11:54

Chris, I had to make an early morning journey from my village to Biggleswade last week. The vaunted “Busway” vehicle from Peterborough turned up ten minutes late and cost me £3.70 for the nine mile trip to Huntingdon. The punctual train from there to Biggleswade, some 18 miles, cost £5.90. The bus charges 39p per mile (7/10d in real money) whereas the train costs 33p per mile (6/7d). Bring back road service licensing!

Roger Cox

14/05/13 – 17:24

Come and live in Edinburgh where Lothian charge £1-50 any distance and the natives still think they are getting a raw deal!!!.

Philip Carlton

06/01/14 – 07:52

Were any of the GS type ever painted red or was there any planned use in the central area for them?

Colin Rutter

06/01/14 – 17:05

It’s reputed, Colin, that one was painted red, but never went into service. There were a couple of proposals to put them on Central Area routes, but this came to naught.
The excellent Ian’s Bus Stop website has the whole story. SEE:- www.countrybus.org/GS/GS.html

Chris Hebbron

07/01/14 – 07:02

The GS fleet of 84 vehicles was way above the actual LT Country Bus requirement in 1953 for OMO (as it then was) buses. At that time one person operated buses were restricted in law to a maximum of 20 passengers, but Traffic Commissioners were empowered to increase this limit to 26 passengers at their discretion, and the GS fleet was so configured. It was rumoured that some of the GS buses were originally intended to form the rolling stock for a reintroduced London “Inter Station” facility that had originally been run by the pre war forward control half decker Leyland Cubs, but this proposal was abandoned. Whatever the truth may have been, in the event, LT had more GS buses than it ever needed.

Roger Cox

07/01/14 – 08:44

I accept that this is purely a personal opinion, but I have always thought that the GS class vehicles were the most handsome and well proportioned buses of all the normal control “little buses” that we’ve known. The secret may possibly lie largely in the combination of the proprietary bonnet/wing assembly and the inevitably delightful ECW bodywork. Despite all this glowing admiration I’ve unfortunately never ridden on a GS !!

Chris Youhill

07/01/14 – 13:34

Oh they’re cuddly and loveable little beasts, with their clatterly, chattery Perkins engines and Chinese gearboxes – and you must put a ride on your to do list, Chris. The Mercedes-Benz Vario is the nearest modern bus but doesn’t begin to compare on character and long-lived quality.

David Oldfield

07/01/14 – 13:35

I agree with you, Chris Y, but it’s clear that LT had a lot of input into the vehicle to get it to the standard they wanted. A&D’s Dennis Falcon/Strachans, were also quite attractive, perhaps greatly aided by the livery. However, the couple of journeys I took on them indicated that they were not so refined as the GS, especially in the ‘engine noise’ department!

Chris Hebbron

08/01/14 – 07:35

They were certainly popular little buses.
The existence of so many survivors into preservation confirms their attraction – and comparative ease in restoring and saving them.
I have heard it said on the rally circuit that there were only 84 GS’s built, but there are 106 preserved !

Petras409

02/02/14 – 16:37

Philip Rushworth’s comments about H&S are interesting. I understand that one of the reasons for H&S failure was because Basil Williams was quite foresighted.! He believed that there would be a large demand for buses/coaches after the war ended and ordered quite large numbers of both from Leyland and Bedford. Unluckily for him, when they were delivered up till about 1951, the price of fuel and other factors meant that demand for travel began to drop, and he was left with a lot of new vehicles with insufficient work and he had difficulty balancing the books. One result of this was that new PD1s were hired to Cardiff Corporation for I think 1 year, and many coaches were sold after a short life with H&S. H&S also suffered from the licencing system as follows: One of H&S’s companies was Triumph Coaches who successfully applied for Forces weekend leave services licences to the North of England and Plymouth. A number of Portsmouth operators ran coaches to similar destinations in competition with Triumph, without licences as ‘private hire’ including surprisingly Southdown, who did have some licences including London.

Paul Statham

06/02/14 – 16:19

I have owned GS42 since December 1973. It was the last one in service in March 72 on Route 336A. It was sold to Matthew Arnold School, Staines where I bought it. I have rallied it every year since then. I don’t know how many miles I’ve covered in it as like other LT buses of the day it doesn’t have a mileometer, but it’s never let me down (Touch Wood). Yes the engine is a bit chattery but very reliable. It always starts after sitting for a week or so without any assistance, glow plugs or easy start. The bodies are very robust with aluminium panels and frame. Very little wood and just the front bonnet and wings in steel. Rust in those parts can be a problem. Based in Surrey I’ve rallied it in Wales and Scotland and many places in between. 42mph and 18-20 mpg.
Slow but economical.

Geoff Heels

07/02/14 – 06:30

It must be a relief you never bought it from Basil Williams, Geoff!
I can recall visiting an aunt, with my mother, around 1955. She lived at Gomshall and we took a GS on the 448(?) from Guildford to get there and back. I was impressed, but disappointed it never went straight up the steep High Street!
It’s surprising that Perkins are still going vey strong internationally, albeit with an industrial bent nowadays.

Chris Hebbron

07/02/14 – 06:31

Didn’t Southdown take over Triumph in the early 60’s and continue to use their livery on some coaches?

Paragon

18/05/15 – 06:50

I have been a GS enthusiast from more or less since these great little vehicles replaced the Cubs on my local route (490) in 1953.
I knew most of our regular Drivers, most of whom put me off outside my front door after Primary School ended for the day. They were The Gentlemen at NF. I got on one morning after I had gone on to senior school, and Sid the driver said “Shut the door please!” The electrics were having an off day! Most of our Driver preferred a GS over an RF as they could tuck the GS in completely in driveways en route whereas it was nose or tail with an RF! Great Days. I wish we could go back to them!

Mr Anon

19/05/15 – 06:08

Ah, Yes, that personal touch. Very rare nowadays!

Chris Hebbron

20/05/15 – 05:53

Paragon is right in saying that Southdown took over Triumph Coaches. They had a separate livery (Blue and Cream)but I don’t know whether a separate subsidiary company was set up or not. The Southdown Enthusiasts’ Club issues many publications and no doubt would have one providing the detail.

Andy Hemming

20/05/15 – 05:54

The personal touch isn’t quite dead. Our next door neighbour drives for a small local company that runs half a dozen rural bus services. He sometimes brings a bus home to wash it! Yesterday, my wife set off in the rain to go to town. The bus stop second from the terminus is a couple of hundred yards away. Neighbour was outside his house, washing a bus as usual. My wife saw this bus turn out of our road, head off to the terminus, then come back a couple of minutes later. When she got on the neighbour said, “Why on earth didn’t you just get on at home?” I am sure this is “strengst verboten” – and hence no clues as to names or location!

Stephen Ford

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

24/12/15 – 06:20

I would reiterate what Roger Cox said. While some licensing control for stage carriage services is obviously necessary to preserve the network ( which is one reason that today the network is not preserved ), the excursion and tour licensing was over regulated and stifled innovation and traffic generation.
The situation where a major operator could object to an excursion destination( and restricting linking licences for destinations of limited appeal), even when that operator patently had no intention of offering that destination is reminiscent of the Keystone Cops. The lost opportunities for both operators and the travelling public must be legion.

Malcolm Hirst

24/12/15 – 11:48

I’ve been having another look at this thread, prompted by Malcolm’s comment of 24 December 2015, published at 06.20, and I refer to Chris Barker’s thoughts (13 May 2013) about taxi fares.
In one meeting of a Committee of Southampton City Council, my then Manager reported to the team that a Councillor [who was a taxi driver] commented that a Southampton taxi was, mile for mile, more expensive than crossing the Atlantic by Concorde. Now, there’s a thought.

Pete Davies

25/12/15 – 07:57

Pete, on the subject of cost per mile. Wallsend to Newcastle, 3 miles £2-35p = 78p Per mile. Newcastle to Jedburgh, 57 miles £6-10p = 10.7p Per mile

Ronnie Hoye

Bickers of Coddenham – Guy GS – MXX 356/60

Copyright Roger Cox

Bickers of Coddenham
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

In 1969 Bickers bought two Guy GS buses, MXX 356 and 360 which were GS56 and GS60 in the London Transport fleet. Here is a picture of them in 1975. The following year they were both sold into preservation, though I believe that neither has been seen about in the last few years. Unless you know different that is, you know how to get in touch.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

21/12/11 – 20:05

Give me a big engined AEC or Leyland any day but these big hearted babies are full of character and deserve their place among the preservation greats. These two look a little mat paint/MOD and well used. Even more testimony to their initially build quality – but they look even better in LT/Country green, gleaming on a running day.
The modern day equivalent is a Mercedes Vario or IVECO Daily. In the words of one of my choir, who spent his professional life working for Tilling subsidiaries, “I know which ones will last longer.”

David Oldfield

22/12/11 – 06:24

I drove the Tillingbourne examples of the GS in the Guildford area, and I found them to be delightfully robust, positive little machines, though the clanky sounding Perkins P6 engine didn’t impress me very much. The GS was another of those buses with a “right to left” wrong way round gearbox, and I have always wondered who made it. Was it a Guy box, or something from another maker?
Also, was it yet another manifestation of London Transport’s flat earth outlook that led it to commission Guy to manufacture a specially designed 26 seat model? Dennis had been producing successful buses of this type for years, and the LGOC had purchased a fleet of around forty Darts in the 1930s. The logical move for LT in the 1950s would surely have been to obtain a P6 powered version of the established Falcon. The GS was (indeed still is – there are lots still around) a really good little bus, but I remain perplexed that it was ever ordered in the first place.

Roger Cox

22/12/11 – 06:25

GS’s were certainly a hybrid ‘special. Based on a modified Guy Vixen chassis, it sported a Perkins P6 indirect-injection, 65 bhp engine, with 4-speed crash gearbox. It was a rare example of London Transport buying an ECW body, which it was supposed to buy in preference to other makes. However, off-hand, I can only think of RFW’s as the other example in post-war years. Even so, LTE put their stamp on it, as it bore a remarkable resemblance to the RF body at the rear.

Chris Hebbron

22/12/11 – 06:26

There are some others from the same batch which survived for a fair time but not in a very good way. See them here www.travellerhomes.co.uk/
At least they had long and useful lives and as David says, they are rather attractive and purposeful souls.

Richard Leaman

22/12/11 – 08:25

As Roger says LT always had some rather odd ideas – the prewar rear engined Leyland CRs spring to mind with only twenty seats AND a conductor !! I too have always admired the little GS class, surely one of the most handsome small buses ever.

Chris Youhill

23/12/11 – 07:00

The CR’s were designed for OMO, but, post-war, with the huge increase in passengers, those OMO routes in Central Area were either abandoned/absorbed into other, busier routes or served by full-sized buses, rendering these ‘babies’ surplus. However, they were spread about and used, as a last resort, to replace full-sized vehicles which had failed, hence the two-man crews. Ill-suited to intensive work, and under-developed, they often crumpled under the strain. I made one journey, on just one, in such a situation. It coped!

Chris Hebbron

23/12/11 – 09:37

Thanks for that Chris H – that’s something I never knew despite owning much bookware about LT – you’re never too old to learn as they say.

Chris Youhill

23/12/11 – 12:11

A nice coincidence is that Leyland’s light 6-cyl diesel used in the CR had the same bore and stroke (3.5″ x 5.0″) as the Perkins P6 used by Guy in the GS. Both engines were indirect injection and shared that light tinkling “threepenny bits” combustion note. The only ride I’ve ever had in a CR was at Cobham (held at Chobham) a few years ago, and the engine sound was remarkably Perkins-like. Another thing I learnt that day: the big-diameter rear hub houses not a double-reduction gear but a universal joint, so the CR evidently didn’t have a beam axle.

Ian Thompson

24/12/11 – 06:36

Douglas Corporation ran some Guy Gs style buses with Mulliner bodywork. They were fitted with large upright destination screens front and rear. This gave rise to their nickname of Wolsey’s camels after the then manager. Douglas also bought what I think are the only Leyland Comets in municipal service.

Chris Hough

24/12/11 – 06:40

Chris Hebbron – re LT buying ECW bodies, there was also SLT 59, (CRL4/RMC4), the first Green Line Routemaster.

Bob Gell

24/12/11 – 06:41

One unusual feature of the CR was a De Dion rear axle, with a universal joint at both ends of the half-shafts. I’ve no idea why it was fitted, maybe to produce a more stable ride for the engine at the rear. Here is a photo and diagram of how it worked (These axles were made from the 1890’s into this century without much change. Sports cars had them, but production cars like the Rover 2000 had it, too). See //www.light-motor-cars.co.uk/

Chris Hebbron

24/12/11 – 09:54

Thx, Bob, for the titbit on SLT 59. ECW must have struggled to meet that order on time! I always thought it looked smart with its framed side lower-deck windows, but had a feeling that the full-width lower rear window looked as if it wasn’t centred properly, or was that my imagination?

Chris Hebbron

24/12/11 – 13:12

There are pictures of SLT 59 on the web including www.londonbuspage.com/ which has this and KGJ 603D which is obligingly pictured from the rear with what also appears to be an off-centre rear window: is this to stiffen the corner by the rear door?
Does anyone know anything about the ECW (presumably) system on the VR which sucked all the cig ends and packets out of the upper deck through a port at the back? Now that’s innovation….

Joe

10/11/12 – 06:51

In the 1980s I owned GS 36 it was a joy to drive once you got used to the gearbox, double de clutch comes to mind, sorry I sold it.

Stuart

04/01/13 – 08:51

On 2/5/10 I took the above picture although I cannot remember where I took it. As I had retired to Cornwall in 2008 and was visiting all the shows I can only assume that it was in Cornwall. I used your site to try and identify the model and any other details available and when I selected the Guy GS model found a photo of 2 buses under the heading of Bickers of Coddenham and comments that the picture was from 1975 and with registration numbers MXX 356 and MXX 360. It further stated that the buses had been sold into preservation but not seen in the last few years. As the photo I took has MXX on its plate unfortunately the numbers are hidden. I just thought that it may possibly be one the buses in a new livery so I forwarded it for any information possible.

Warren Farrer

04/01/13 – 13:03

This bus is in the distinctive livery of West Bromwich Corporation, and you can just make out the fleet number 252. The registration would be MXX 340. It was acquired from London Transport in 1961.

Alan Murray-Rust

11/02/15 – 14:03

This is all new to me. I am enjoying the various photos and comments. On the Home page there are photos of the Guy Specials. Although the original contributions were some 3 years ago, the attached may be of interest showing the only GS painted into Tillingbourne blue seen at Rusper on the service to Horsham on 1. 7. 1972. The driver may well be your contributor Roger Cox. Thanks to the driver for the ride.

Keith Newton

12/02/15 – 06:35

Welcome, Keith and thx for your photo. It certainly looks very odd out of LT colours!

Chris Hebbron

12/02/15 – 06:35

No, it’s not me, Keith. MXX 364, ex GS64, was the only GS painted in the then new blue Tillingbourne livery shown in your picture. It was out stationed for a time at Horsham (on a rotational basis with one of the SUs) for the Horsham-Rusper circular route. Although I did drive the SU4LAs on this service, I didn’t take GS64 in its new livery. This was the last GS bought by Tillingbourne (in April 1971) and the last to be operated, being withdrawn in October 1972.

Roger Cox

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

19/02/15 – 07:35

Here is another Tillingbourne GS, MXX 382, ex GS82, seen in Horsham Carfax when ‘On Hire’ to North Downs Rural Transport in 1971. It is in the revised livery initially adopted by Trevor Brown in September 1970 when he took over Tillingbourne Valley from the Trice family who had run the business since 1924. Later, the blue livery shown above in Keith’s picture replaced the maroon, though MXX 382 was never so repainted, being withdrawn in March 1972. North Downs itself, after struggling with low revenues and maintenance issues, finally expired on 17 April 1972, whereupon the Horsham services became part of the Tillingbourne network.

Roger Cox

19/02/15 – 10:34

The history of all the London Transport GS Class can be found at the excellent “Ian’s Bus Stop” website at this link: www.countrybus.org/GS/GSa

Chris Hebbron

24/02/15 – 14:13

David Call is right. Stage was the highest category and the most demanding. Express was in the middle and the lowest category was contract. I worked in the Metropolitan Traffic Area’s PSV licensing team in 1963 and 1964, and I handled very few contract PSV licences.
One oddity about the Metropolitan Traffic Area was that it did not handle licensing of drivers or conductors, which was handled by the Public Carriage Office of the Metropolitan Police. Another was that London Transport not only trained their own drivers, but tested them as well!

David Wragg

24/02/15 – 16:12

My original PSV was passed in London in 1967. In 1972 I moved back to Manchester and when my licence came up for renewal I had to surrender my ‘N’ badge for a ‘CC’ one. The new one was a bit slow coming so I went along to the office in Manchester to enquire why.
It turned out that the Civil Service Union was on a work-to-rule and they would not issue the new one until they received the 2/6d. deposit on my old one from London. When I protested that I could not work (the law stated that it had to be worn) because they did not trust the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to return my 2/6d the supervisor was called. After some argument, the supervisor’s supervisor was called and nobody could think of a rule that stopped my paying again. They kindly allowed me to do this and promised they would refund me when they received the original deposit. Still waiting… (Maybe I should write to the Prime Minister and Sir Bernard whatsit-Howe about why the south is so much richer than the north!)

John Hodkinson

25/02/15 – 06:02

David Wragg says it was ”an oddity for London Transport to test their own Drivers”
Not so, Designated Examiners were common practice in the larger Companies, and Municipal Undertakings, and still are.
There was a specified number of Drivers who had to be employed, I think 300, to qualify for one, and the Examiner was not to be the same person as the one who undertook the Training.
This was to alleviate the pressure off the Ministry of Transport.
In the past there were no separate Department of Transport Driving Examiners, PSV Tests were carried out by the Area Certifying Officer (The Ministry Man).
He would re-certify a few vehicles in the morning, and then carry out a few PSV Driving Tests in the afternoon, or visa versa. At Oldham Corporation I seem to recall it was a Tuesday.
Also you did not get a pass or fail off him, and no pass certificate. He just said he would make his recommendation to The Traffic Commissioner and you would hear in due course.
You did not know if you had passed until your Licence and Badge arrived.

Stephen Howarth

West Bromwich – Guy GS – MXX 340 – 252

West Bromwich (County Borough of) Transport Dept
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

This Guy GS Special was attending a West Bromwich running day at the Black Country Museum in September 2014. It was new to London Transport in December 1953 as fleet number GS40 and has an Eastern Coachworks B26F body (number 6386). MXX 340 looks superb and was accompanied by three other West Bromwich buses. This is surely one of the smartest liveries in the country.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

19/04/15 – 11:54

Heartily agree that West Bromwich Corporation had one of the smartest fleet liveries in the country, along with City of Oxford.
Rightly or wrongly I was always under the impression that this vehicle was primarily for use of the Social Services Department although it was numbered 252 in the main fleet series, as was a second ex-London GS (251) whose identity escapes me at the moment.

Larry B

20/04/15 – 07:16

The other one, Larry B, was MXX 341, which was 233 in the West Bromwich fleet. It was scrapped in 1972.

Chris Hebbron

21/04/15 – 06:12

I think this is resident at the Black Country Museum. It was certainly in service doing the “round the site” service when I was there last year. Looks good in this livery, but seemed mechanically a bit run down, though OK for what it was doing.

David

06/06/15 – 06:32

David, They had problems with this one on the day that I took the pic. It would not start and remained at rest whilst the other three did the round the site trips.It was good to see, would have been better to ride!

Les Dickinson

07/07/18 – 05:59

It is indeed being used by the BCLM but it is privately owned and had had quite a lot of work done to it including a partial engine rebuild.It is now due for more work in the very near future,

William Parker

18/02/20 – 07:22

As of today, it is still at the Black Country Living Museum and was in service.

Chris Hebbron

08/02/21 – 13:34

The attached photo shows the two GSs in Oak Lane Depot in July 1967, together with the two ex Huddersfield JOC Daimlers (ex 78 & 103, CVG6/Willowbrook) which belonged to the Welfare Services. These two only carry the lighter blue of the standard livery, whereas the two Guys carry the two-tone blue livery of the main bus fleet. BBF 7, third edition of 1967, shows both Guys as being purchased in 1961, with MXX 340 (252) noted has having operated by the Health Department until 1963, at which point it clearly joined the bus fleet. It’s interesting to note that on both the Guys the cream band is the same width right up to the corner pillar rather than than narrowing under the corner light as seen on the main photo.

Alan Murray-Rust

Lowestoft Corporation – AEC Swift – YRT 898H – 4

Lowestoft Corporation
1969
AEC Swift 2MP2R
ECW B45D

At Local Government Reorganisation in 1974, Lowestoft became part of the Borough of Waveney. The operations of the Transport Department were sold to Eastern Counties some years later, and Eastern Counties is now part of First. YRT 898H is a rare combination – a 1969 AEC Swift chassis of the 2MP2R variety, with an ECW B45D body, ECW were more usually associated with Tilling fleets. The reasoning is clear, of course – support the local firm, to help the economy of the town. It is seen at Wisley on 4 April 2004.

The Municipal Crest and fleetname form this second view.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/12/16 – 07:05

I have always thought that the front end of these vehicles let them down. Without the more usual Bristol RE grille, the plain front needed some alternative feature.
The vertical trio of small air intake, authority crest and the winged AEC blue triangle badge just didn’t work. It would have been slightly better with the AEC badge at the top, together with a little bit of styling. The very low headlamps didn’t help, either.

Petras409

29/12/16 – 09:58

I bet, also, that those near vertical front screens gave rise to some serious interior light reflections during darkness hours.

Roger Cox

30/12/16 – 07:03

One of the Swifts spent some time in Somerset with Brutonian. It seemed a strange purchase for rural services and had difficulty in negotiating some of the lanes. I understand it was not that reliable. Acquired in 1978 is was used for a couple of years and it did look attractive in the Company’s colours.

Keith Newton

30/12/16 – 11:42

Who was SD and what is the coach in the background?
It looks a lot smaller than the Swift even allowing for perspective.

John Lomas

30/12/16 – 14:44

Well the close up seems to have given me part of the answer. Bedford VAM? Plaxton Panorama? But S. D. I don’t think the S&D railway (the old slow and dirty) ran coaches and they had disappeared by then anyway.

John Lomas

30/12/16 – 14:45

John,
TGH 769F is a Reliance 2U3RA, new to Janes, Wembley in March 1968. It’s only a guess, but SD might be Shaftesbury & District.

Pete Davies

30/12/16 – 14:47

Shaftesbury & District
1968 AEC C51F new to Janes of Wembley BLOTW under More are 5 photo’s.

Alan Coulson

30/12/16 – 14:48

Shaftesbury and District who have provided bus services in the area for some years. The firm started in 1976 and is still going. The photo was taken in August 1979 in Shaftesbury.

Keith Newton

25/11/17 – 14:51

A recent trawl found this photo of YRT 896H in depressing weather when it was a few months old. It shows a detail not mentioned above, that the rear end design was unlike the standard RELL bus with centre rear emergency exit, but like the RELH express bus body with an off-side emergency door and single piece rear window.

Geoff Pullin

24/01/19 – 07:03

Firstly the district council that took on the former Lowestoft borough area was Waveney (no r). Secondly the route licences were bought and three Bristol VRTs on order were diverted but the operation fleet wasn’t purchased. Thirdly, the advent of these Swifts in 1969 led to ECW designing the single pane rear window, previously bus-shelled dual purpose REs had three windows at the back.

Stephen Allcroft

25/01/19 – 06:49

With regard to Stephen’s third comment, I am not aware of any dual purpose REs that had a central rear emergency exit. Perhaps there were some that I missed that were bus-shelled vehicles with sloping floors (on RELL chassis) but DP style seats. So far as I am aware all high floor (on RELH chassis) flat floor DPs had a side emergency exit. If Stephen has inside knowledge from the time, it would be interesting to know which came first the Lowestoft Swifts or the bus framed RELH DPs (eg United Counties TBD278G of May 1969). Or was it a happy coincidence?

Geoff Pullin

25/01/19 – 06:50

I don’t think that is quite right about the bus shell bodied RELH DPs, as the G-suffix vehicles built for Bristol OC and United Counties also had a single piece rear window. //bcv.robsly.com/tbd278g.html
I think the vehicles that Stephen is thinking of are the two RESH DPs built for Midland General (SRB66/7F).

Nigel Frampton

Lowestoft Corporation – AEC Regent II – GBJ 192 -21

Lowestoft Corporation
1947
AEC Regent II
ECW H30/26R

Preserved Lowestoft Corporation 21, GBJ 192, a 1947 AEC Regent II with an ECW H30/26R body seen at East Anglia Transport Museum. More information about Lowestoft Corporation Transport can be found at www.petergould.co.uk/lowestoft1.htm

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

09/02/14 – 11:38

Nice view, Ken. Thanks for posting. Of course, we’d expect Lowestoft to support the local firm, wouldn’t we. The application of the livery is reminiscent of Newport who, until not long ago had a green and cream version and it’s reminiscent of the Dinky Toys STL.

Pete Davies

09/02/14 – 11:39

Beautiful picture of a beautiful bus. Just think of what we were deprived of by the Transport Act. ECW bodied AECs from 1948 to 1965 – not to mention Roe or Weymann bodied Bristols.

David Oldfield

09/02/14 – 16:35

I Remember traveling on this bus up the Norwich Rd when in my teens plus other routes in Lowestoft.
Bad day when the corporation buses were taken over by the double n people.

Steve

10/02/14 – 07:54

I’ve just read the article at the link above – what went wrong at Lowestoft/Waveney? In the late 1960s it seems Lowestoft Corporation considered selling the bus undertaking to ECOC, but finding the offer unacceptable then proposed route extensions . . . but lost-out in the traffic courts to ECOC. In April 1974 a joint services agreement with ECOC was reached . . . which was dissolved in March 1976, when most of the services reverted to ECOC. Seemingly reduced to being a one-route operator Waveney DC threw in the towel in December 1977 and sold the undertaking on to ECOC.
I have a Lowestoft Setright ticket from the days of Waveney DC, which is titled “Lowestoft Passenger Transport – Waveney DC Lowestoft…etc” (in black). Did Lowestoft vehicles wear this livery (with traditional lettering) to the end? and what changed when it became Waveney??

Philip Rushworth

10/02/14 – 07:56

I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen another ECW body like this one – it seems to have more than a touch of the Park Royal about it. It’s certainly very stylish and it’s fortunate that it’s been preserved.

Chris Hebbron

10/02/14 – 09:51

Maybe just the angle, Chris, but it’s the standard body for the time as found on numerous Bristol Ks and Chris Y’s favourite PD1As. It also appeared briefly as a Northern Coachbuilders’ body – as in the Newcastle Regent III. The livery not being a Tilling standard makes a lot of difference!

David Oldfield

10/02/14 – 15:02

There’s always been something of a mystery about these vehicles, there were ten of them, the only AEC Regent II’s bodied by ECW. Lowestoft had nine of them, the tenth went to Ebor Transport of Mansfield and was registered HAL 841. Nine would seem an odd quantity for Lowestoft to order and it seems equally unlikely that Ebor would have chosen ECW to body an odd Regent. I’ve always thought they must have been one batch so did Lowestoft order ten and then decide they only needed nine? Perhaps we will never know now. Incidentally, HAL 841 entered ‘Tilling’ ownership when Ebor was taken over by Mansfield District.

Chris Barker

11/02/14 – 07:10

Chris B, Messrs Doggett and Townsin’s Book ‘ECW 1946-1965’ mentions the nine ECW-bodied Regent IIs for Lowestoft and that “a tenth body of similar design was built on the same type of chassis for the Ebor Bus Co Ltd”. The text also states that the Lowestoft vehicles had body numbers 1579-1587, with the Ebor body directly following (1588). It does seem odd as you say, that the independent Ebor asked ECW to body one chassis, but the authors also mention that another independent took delivery of six ECW-bodied Leyland Tiger PS1 buses in 1946/47, namely Birch Bros of London. David O’s comments about the Transport Act depriving us of some fascinating chassis/body combinations certainly rings true. Just imagine a Roe-bodied Lodekka, or ECW-bodied Daimler CVG6….

Brendan Smith

11/02/14 – 17:40

But we did get ECW bodied Leyland PD2s and Leyland Leopard L1s for Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee and Bristol LSs and MWs with Alexander bodies for Western S.M.T. Also rebodied Bristol Ks with Weymann bodies for Maidstone and District.

Stephen Bloomfield

12/02/14 – 06:55

Thanks Stephen, that’s very true, and how could such gems have slipped my mind? (Especially as the Sheffield examples are shown on this very website!) On the same tack Rotherham had batches of East Lancs-bodied Bristol K and KS types. ECW bodied Albions for Red & White, and Guy Arab IIIs for Middlesbrough, as well as Leyland Royal Tigers for United (coaches) and Cumberland (buses). One tends to forget just how many advance orders had been placed with both Bristol and ECW for delivery after the nationalisation watershed of 1948.

Brendan Smith

13/02/14 – 08:09

West Yorkshire also had a batch of prewar Bristol K’s rebodied by Roe in 1953 of which KDG 26 (CWX 671) is still with us.

Keith Clark

13/02/14 – 09:54

Two non-Bristol ECW bodied vehicles from the United fleet. Both are PSU1/15 Leyland Royal Tigers. LUT1; PHN 801 was one of nine C39F coaches bought in 1952 for the Tyne Tees Thames Newcastle London route: LU4; RHN 766 was from a batch of B45F service vehicles from 1953. I don’t know the ins and outs of what happened at Carlisle, but when LU4 was based there, the depot was run by United, some Darlington registered vehicles ended up in the Ribble fleet, and then I think all Carlisle operations became Cumberland. Perhaps someone can enlighten us?

Ronnie Hoye

14/02/14 – 06:42

Ronnie, So far as I am aware, United operations in Carlisle passed to Ribble when NBC was established. With the run-up to privatisation, Ribble was split, and the northern area passed to Cumberland, while the Liverpool area (did it include Southport?) went to a new firm reviving the old North Western name. Others may know otherwise!

Pete Davies

15/02/14 – 06:11

In the old days, when we were young, there was a lot of BET/Tilling overlap. There was also a lot of historical “baggage”. United historically ran Leyland coaches – and continued to do so as long as possible. Cumberland had at least 50% private ownership and were a Leyland fleet – until Tilling came into the ascendency in the ’50s. Carlisle was given to Ribble by NBC in 1969/70. When Ribble and Cumberland came into common Stagecoach ownership, Cumbria went to Cumberland and Lancashire to Ribble.

David Oldfield

15/02/14 – 06:12

I know, I’m a bit behind the thread, but thanks to Ken Jones for posting the photo of Lowestoft Corporation No.21. As I’ve only just seen it on the website I must a rant as this bus is one of my favourite machines. Everything about it takes my breath away. The deep maroon and primrose livery which appears quite plain and Dinky 290’ish, which in itself is a lovely period half and half style, has thin black lining, then emblazoned along the lower panels is the large serif Corporaton fleetname. Inside, a lovely maroon chain-link style moquette covered the seats (see photograph). The Regent II/ECW combination always fascinated me and eventually I got a ride on this wonderful bus at the 2012 ECW 25 year Commemoration weekend.
I didn’t realise, until I read Malcom R. Whites “Lowestoft Corporation Transport- Bygone Town Services” (ISBN 0-9532485-9-3) book how the Corporations routes were severely restricted to basically north-south with loops on each end and have always wondered why they were not extended inland to places like Oulton Broad and Carlton Colville.
The Rotterdam Road bus depot building still survives, but now owned by an industrial concern.

Graham Watling

15/02/14 – 06:13

W Alexander & Sons had 12 Daimler CVD6s with ECW ‘Queen Mary’ coach bodies, complete with the Alexander Bluebird emblem. It doesn’t get more mouth-watering than that!

Peter Williamson

15/02/14 – 06:54

Just to support the latest thread on this marvellous bus a couple of photos one of the interior of lower deck and a rear view.

Graham Watling

15/02/14 – 10:47

This beautiful moquette pattern, but in blue and cream, was used by Roe in the two new bodies (lower saloons) fitted in 1951 to Samuel Ledgard’s two utility Guy Arabs. I always thought it to be a most appealing design, bold but tasteful.

Chris Youhill

15/02/14 – 13:39

Chris Y’s comments made me think of something else. The interior shot shows window pans more in the Roe mould than that found on standard Bristol/ECW vehicles. [Were there not overtures to ECW from both Roe and Roberts in the pre WW II years? There was certainly tooing and froing of major people between the likes of Roe, ECW, Park Royal and Weymann.]

David Oldfield

16/02/14 – 07:30

I’m a bit slow replying, David O, but you are right about the vehicle looking different when not in Tilling Green. SEE my post www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=4321 And the AEC rad also tends to fool the eye. Finally, the light upper colour diminishes the rather high front roofline which these highbridge bodies possessed. It’s a very satisfying body and livery.

Chris Hebbron

16/02/14 – 07:31

I only found out today whilst perusing the latest edition of Classic Bus that this style of 5 bay ECW body (albeit in lowbridge form) was fitted to a Daimler, a CWA6 which had been rebodied by one of the Scottish companies. You learn something new every day!

Chris Barker

19/06/14 – 09:26

Having done much work on this bus during its restoration , I can add that it is a standard ECW ‘K” body fitted to a Regent II chassis this is highlighted around the cab front end area when compared to the Bristol variant , either way it sits well unlike some body builders efforts , another issue that affected maintenance of these vehicles was the provision of the trapdoors in the cab for the starter motor was not ideally suitable and same with the gearbox lifting eye in the lower saloon was too offset to be of use. Another point of interest was the Ebor body no. was found on our example on some of the internal panels I can understand other body numbers being found from the Lowestoft batch because of salvage etc.

Peter Short

29/06/14 – 17:11

Graham Watling wonders why the Corporation never operated to Oulton Broad and similar. The answer lay in the licensing system whereby the traffic commissioners had to always give the licence for any new route to the “established operator”. Thus because Eastern Counties was the first to provide services to Oulton Broad and Oulton, the corporation had no chance of obtaining a licence to operate to those points. The system produced utter farce at times, such as when the Corporation applied for a town centre to Hollingsworth Road service, it could not have a stop in the lower portion of Rotterdam Road because that might lead to abstraction from ECOC service 3, which did not serve the Gunton Estate!
To hell with the customer, the bus company interest came first, I know I was one of many who complained about the bad behaviour of ECOC to our local MP and the Department of Transport. The deregulation of buses was welcome, but unfortunately threw out the baby with the bath water, so that we lost local council fleets in many cases whilst happily getting rid of the NBC and PTEs.

These buses provided a source of pleasure to me from late 1966 when I moved to Lowestoft. Wonderful sound effects! I have an amusing incident concerning one of these lovely buses. I got on one at Station Square one evening after travelling from work at Norwich. The crew boarded, a short pause and communication between them followed, then the conductor asked the men in the lower saloon if we could give the bus a push as the starter motor was stuck. We duly obliged and the bus was soon under way. Happy days!
Perhaps Peter Short can answer a question about these buses. they are shown as Regent IIs but the chassis numbers all commence 0661, which of course is the Regent I So are these really Regent IIs?

Brian Moore

12/09/15 – 14:38

Brian Moore mentions the “push starting” at Station Square. Well in about 1969 a fellow passenger, the conductor and I had a similar “stuck” starter motor at the No 2 Gunton Drive/Gunton Drive terminus one cold morning when I was trying to get to the station. It was a bit of a push as the road there had ruts caused by the bus wheels always stopping in the same place….!
The conductor did not seem surprised. I think he said that bus 27 had a missing tooth on the starter wheel! I am so glad that one from that batch has been preserved

Christopher Boulter

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

08/01/16 – 06:31

I have just overhauled and re fitted the rear axle on this and if this is any use Brian Moore the chassis number is 06611945 also the rear axle had so many part what no other Regent II had i:e parallel rollers instead of tapered roller bearing and the only explanation I can come up with is that AEC must of used up all the parts from Regent I as I believe these are very early regent II? so effectively it is just a Regent I underneath.
Also was number 27 an AEC Regent III?

Connor

03/04/19 – 08:45

In reply to Connor’s 08/01/16 question about number 27 which I believe was the bus with the missing starter tooth, it would have been from the same series ie 19-27 like number 21.
None had direction indicators which in the late 1960s caused much confusion with holidaymakers used to such modern extras as the drivers hand would only stick out about 10 inches from the cab window!
The 19-27 series was withdrawn around 1969 to be replaced by the Corporation’s first four front entrance/centre exit single deckers numbers 1-4.
Numbers 28 & 29 were of a later vintage and were around 1969 retrofitted with indicators!
I recall some early/mid 1960s AEC & Leyland double deckers too which had replaced some war/post war utility buses.

Christopher Boulter

United Automobile – Bristol SU – AHN 901B – S1

United Automobile Services
1964
Bristol SUL4A
ECW B36F

The Bristol SU series had a limited following amongst THC Companies. This example is in Ripon Bus Station in July 1968 about to set out on the lengthy run to Masham. I would imagine the Albion 4cyl engine would be quite noisy although probably not as bad as the Gardner 4LK as fitted to the earlier SC series.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

24/11/14 – 06:44

The SU series had the same gearbox as the earlier SC model and thus parts of the sound were similar on both models. Yes, the Albion Engine was noisy! The interior of the bus version was unusual in having inward facing seats over all four wheels. The Western National coach versions had normal forward facing seats throughout.
I remember riding on one or two of these buses on Ripon Market Day services, and I also once spent a day riding on Western National SU’s on various routes centred on Bridport. However I was most familiar with West Yorkshire’s SU models, working from Grassington outstation on service 72 between Grassington and Ilkley, which covered several miles of single-track roads around Appletreewick, and also passed through the narrow arch at Bolton Abbey.
I was lucky enough to ride on an SU at this years Kingsbridge Running Day, which brought back happy memories.

Don McKeown

24/11/14 – 06:44

The geographical area covered by United was vast, and obviously not every type of vehicle would be based at every depot. If any of the depots which ran services into Newcastle had any, they must have been used for local services as I cant ever remember seeing any of this type in the City.

Ronnie Hoye

24/11/14 – 09:42

Don I was at Ilkley depot in 1960/1 and worked on the Grassington service (which was 75 in those days). It was a lovely route as you say, but roadwise dreadful with dry stone walls, no kerbs or verges, Bolton Abbey Arch, Barden bridge, and hordes of motorists and others towing large caravans – many such drivers seemingly with not the vaguest idea of the dimensions of their vehicles. The famous West Yorkshire Bristol L/ECW saloon SG 103, converted by the Company to forward entrance OPO, was the basic performer on the full length weekday journeys on the route for many years. Very happy days indeed !!

Chris Youhill

24/11/14 – 17:04

Chris, many years later I would be a regular driver on what was by this time the 76 running between Skipton and Grassington via Bolton Abbey, covering the one time Ribble route from Skipton to Bolton Abbey and part of the original West Yorkshire route. Sadly by this time Leyland Nationals were in use on the service, but the scenery and the roads and bridges were still the same. Happy days indeed!

Don McKeown

24/11/14 – 17:05

The Bristol SU was noisy. The afternoon school special to Eldwick from Bingley Secondary Modern & Technical School was operated by a bus from the Keighley-Bingley via Morton service. Invariably this would be a Bristol SUL – from KSMA 1-4 or SMP 17. My over-riding memory of them is that the ride was hard and the engine extremely noisy. Mind you, what I’d give to ride on one today!

Kevin Hey

25/11/14 – 07:12

Don, not to digress too far, but during my time at Ilkley service 76 was my all time favourite – five hours a round trip – Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate, Wetherby, Tadcaster – shared by Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate and Wetherby depots. There was, however, one phenomenal outing for Grassington crews who used the Skipton depot bus for one round trip with, I think, a 71 from Skipton to Grassington before and after – or maybe they rode passenger to and from Grassington – its a long time ago now !!

Picture here of dear old SG 103 – a rare treat for passengers to share first hand the glorious symphony of the Gardner 5LW, and no excess fare either !! Apologies for diverging from the United topic, but this is in a similar vein I feel.

Chris Youhill

25/11/14 – 07:13

Western/Southern National were by far the biggest users of the SU, taking 133 of the 181 built. By contrast, 323 examples of the SC4LK were produced, but none of these went to Southern/Western National. I drove the ex Western National SUL4A buses 318/347/355/417 EDV and the coach bodied 269 KTA when they were owned by Tillingbourne of Chilworth, near Guildford, between 1972 and 1975. As I (now somewhat shakily) recall, the gearbox was certainly a David Brown unit, but the gear selector positions were more logical than those of the SC4LK, examples of which I also drove for Tillingbourne. Some sources say that this was a synchromesh gearbox. It was not; it was constant mesh. The four cylinder Albion engine of 4.1 litres was effectively 2/3 of the Leyland six cylinder O375 engine as used in the Tiger Cub, and it was not noted for its reliability in the contemporary Nimbus. It developed 72 bhp at 2,200 rpm, rather more than the 57 bhp at 2,100 rpm of the 3.8 litres Gardner 4LK in the SC, and the SU was decidedly more lively in performance than its lightweight Bristol forebear. It also felt more solid than the Nimbus, and was quite pleasant to drive. A rather careworn 417 EDV is shown on the rural road between Colgate and Roffey Corner, near Horsham, very shortly before it was withdrawn in June 1975. The windscreen of the coach bodywork on 269 KTA had a distinct “vee” shape, and this gave severe reflection problems in the cab from the saloon lighting during hours of darkness. Sister vehicle 270 KTA has been preserved as shown in this link:- //upload.wikimedia.org/_Western_National_420_270KTA

Roger Cox

25/11/14 – 08:51

Ah, Roffey Corner, Roger; shades of Basil Williams’ Hants and Sussex empire!

Chris Hebbron

25/11/14 – 17:40

The service from Grassington to Ilkley is now run by Pride of the Dales using Optare Solos which fit through the Bolton Abbey arch comfortably.
Grassington depot is now a postal sorting office and the car park boasts a small bus station.
Some 30 years ago I was travelling between Appletreewick and Grassington when I met a WYRCC RESL on a school journey coming the other way we passed with inches to spare in a passing place, I never knew until then how many rivets ECW put in a bus!
Even further back in the mists of time in the sixties I once caught the bus from Grassington to Kettlewell on this occasion the bus was packed as it was market day. The bus was a LS and carried a very vintage guard presumably from Grassington depot. Happy days.

Chris Hough

26/11/14 – 17:07

Many of the Western and Southern National SUs worked on Guernsey for a number of years following withdrawal on the mainland.

Chris Hough

26/11/14 – 18:00

As a known SU fan I’m glad so many are preserved including one in Colin Billington’s collection which is preserved in Guernsey Delta Tours livery. One of my pictures of this can be seen at https://www.flickr.com/photos/one although I prefer SUS and one of these is shown at https://www.flickr.com/photos/two

Ken Jones

27/11/14 – 15:05

The SU was designed to meet a requirement for small buses at the start of the 1960s by Western/Southern National to replace rebodied pre-war Bristol L types. Unfortunately, by that time all the other Tilling companies with such a requirement (Lincolnshire, Crosville and Eastern Counties, which had not generally rebodied their pre-war saloons) had re-equipped with the Bristol SC4LK in the mid 1950s. As a result, Western/Southern National took 133 out of the 181 SUs built, and the balance went in only small numbers (often 5 or 6) to other Tilling Group companies. Of these, West Yorkshire had the largest number, taking 18, but these were then scattered around the depots – for example the allocation on 1 January 1965, the first day that all 18 were in service, was Grassington (1); Harrogate (2); Ilkley (1); Keighley (2); Malton (2); Pateley Bridge (2); Skipton (1) and York (1 + 6 York-West Yorkshire). This guaranteed that the type was regarded as an “oddity” at every depot, and we all know what drivers think of oddities…. I know that at York, drivers admitted to using the (fairly inadequate) brakes more than necessary so that they were able to book it off after the morning peak, for the brakes to be adjusted. The Western/Southern National drivers HAD to accept them, by virtue of the quantity in the fleet, and so no doubt they learned how best to drive them, and how to get the best out of them.
As one of the small, elite band of SU owners and drivers in 2014 I can confirm that on the level (and downhill!) they have a respectable turn of speed. On a suitable road or Motorway a steady 50-55 mph can be maintained all day long, making long distance rallying enjoyable. Hills are more of a problem; the small engine itself isn’t the whole story, though, as the David Brown gearbox has an unfortunately large gap between 3rd and 4th gear, which guarantees that once down to 3rd gear it remains in that, at 25 mph, until the top of the hill is reached!
Like Ken I am an unashamed SU fan and wouldn’t change mine for anything else.

Trevor Leach

27/11/14 – 16:13

Ken says he prefers the shorter SUS model. The Bristol Omnibus Co. had nine of them – in three batches, and here is their former 301 (862 RAE), a SUS4A with ECW B30F body, one of three new in 1962. Withdrawn in 1971 it passed to North’s, the dealer, of Sherburn-in-Elmet in Yorkshire at whose premises it is pictured here in 1972. It then saw service with Primrose Valley Coaches of Filey and later Phillips of Shiptonthorpe with whom it lasted until around 1983. It then passed to a Barnsley breaker, but was reprieved and after a few more owners it was last reported as preserved by Mike Ellis of Stroud – 301’s original allocation when new.

John Stringer

28/11/14 – 06:36

Thanks for the SUS pictures [Trevor hope you and your wife are well]- I don’t know if 862 RAE has been out recently – I last saw it in 2012. There’s an article from a few years ago [with pictures] at www.focustransport.org.uk/

Ken Jones

15/07/21 – 06:45

I always loved United Autos buses, moving to Leeds in 1962 didn’t dampen my ardour, in fact it increased. On my visits to Middlesbrough from where I had moved, I was in awe of their vehicles and you can imagine my glee when I used often to travel on a United vehicle in the shape of the X99 service to get there from Leeds.

David Walton

Bristol Omnibus1947Leyland PD1/AECW H30/26R

Southdown Motor Services Ltd1947Leyland Tiger PS1/1ECW C31R

Sheffield Corporation1961Leyland Leopard L1ECW C41F

Sheffield Corporation1961Leyland Leopard L1ECW C41F

Southern Motorways1953Guy GSECW B26F

Bickers of Coddenham1953Guy GSECW B26F

West Bromwich (County Borough of) Transport Dept1953Guy GSECW B26F

Lowestoft Corporation1969AEC Swift 2MP2RECW B45D

Lowestoft Corporation1947AEC Regent IIECW H30/26R

United Automobile Services1964Bristol SUL4AECW B36F

Bristol Omnibus
1947
Leyland PD1/A
ECW H30/26R

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1947
Leyland Tiger PS1/1
ECW C31R

Sheffield Corporation
1961
Leyland Leopard L1
ECW C41F

Sheffield Corporation
1961
Leyland Leopard L1
ECW C41F

Southern Motorways
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

Bickers of Coddenham
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

West Bromwich (County Borough of) Transport Dept
1953
Guy GS
ECW B26F

Lowestoft Corporation
1969
AEC Swift 2MP2R
ECW B45D

Lowestoft Corporation
1947
AEC Regent II
ECW H30/26R

United Automobile Services
1964
Bristol SUL4A
ECW B36F