Western National Omnibus Co Ltd 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW C39F
This is a Bristol MW6G from 1962 with second style MW ECW C39F body, and was hired from Western National to London Country Bus Services Limited in 1975 to 1977. In 2000 it was in service with Memory Lane Vintage Omnibus Services. It has been owned by Bob & Philip White since 2008 and is seen at many rallies and often participates in the annual Royal Blue run. It is preserved as Western National 2270, and was photographed leaving Simonsbath in Somerset on 3/7/10 during that years Royal Blue event. The picture was taken from the proceeding vehicle EDV 502D a Bristol MW6G with the third style C39F ECW bodywork.
The 2013 Royal Blue run will take place on Friday 21st June to Sunday 23rd June and include Margate to Bournemouth. More details are on line at www.tvagwot.org.uk/events.htm
You never fail to Excel. Another excellent capture.
Alan Coulson
23/02/13 – 13:42
Well up to standard, Ken. Keep going!
Pete Davies
04/03/13 – 07:57
I used to drive 2270 on service out of Royal Blue depot in Portsmouth. Didn’t like her to drive. Also operated a daily service from Portsmouth to Ilfracombe in the 70,s which to us through Simonsbath and over Exmoor but we always had a MW ideal for the bends at Watersmeet which was further on.
Jim Stapleton
06/03/13 – 10:27
WN 2270 also recorded as on loan to Alder Valley during June and July 1975.
Mac Head
21/04/13 – 07:52
Just been catching up on the ITV programme “Endeavour” from 14th April and found this vehicle in it plus Hants and Dorset FEL 951C plus Oxford City Double Decker – very good
Ken Jones
27/04/13 – 07:48
Initial invites and details about the 2013 Royal Blue run have just been released from the organisers as follows.
“This year we are heading east. The South Coast Express from Margate to Bournemouth was jointly operated by Royal Blue, East Kent and Southdown. Royal Blue also operated joint services between Bournemouth and Kent with Maidstone & District and therefore we would like invite owners of vehicles from these companies to join us in this year’s run. In the heyday of the South Coast Express through services from Margate to Bournemouth took around 12 hours for the complete journey. In today’s traffic conditions this would take significantly longer and therefore the plan is as follows:
Day 1 (Friday 21 June) Victoria Coach Station (we have permission to be in VCS from about 10.30 to 11.00 when there will also be an unveiling of a Transport Trust “Red Wheel”) – Peckham – Lewisham – Sidcup – Maidstone – Canterbury – Margate – Ramsgate
Entrants will be welcome from Royal Blue, Southdown, East Kent, Maidstone & District and Associated Motorways companies and any vehicles which might have run “on-hire” to the main operators. Entrants can join in for any part or all of the run over the three days.”
Ken Jones
21/05/13 – 15:20
Well Jim, you and me both! According to my “lists”(!) I drove her a few times out of Bournemouth (Rutland Road) on Associated Motorways work. Not as nice to drive as the later RELHs!
Andy McClelland
22/06/13 – 07:52
Yes Andy 2270 was not so nice to drive but I’m sure it was because it didn’t like me! And trying to change the blind with your T key was something else!!. At least when it was hot one could drive with the door open.
Cumberland Motor Services 1964 Bristol MW6G ECW B45F
Cumberland 231 (AAO 34B) was a 1964 Bristol MW6G with the standard Eastern Coachworks B45F body. Of interest is the T-style destination display, which required the front dome to be raised above the natural roofline of the bus. ECW always managed to make this feature look like a natural part of the design, whereas some builders used to make this feature look like an “afterthought”. The bus is seen at Seatoller, terminus of service 79 from Keswick. This exceptionally scenic route followed the Borrowdale Valley, and is nowadays operated by Stagecoach using open top double-deckers. 231 and a sister spent more or less all her life allocated to Keswick Depot, most of this time being spent on service 79.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
12/02/14 – 18:15
Always thought this was a neat little body on the MW and always preferred the 6Gs. I’m sure Westmorland and Cumberland were better tackled with this engine.
David Oldfield
12/02/14 – 18:35
The 79 was operated jointly with the “Keswick – Borrowdale Bus service” which consisted of Simpsons and Weightmans – one bus each I think, and for many years both of them Bedford OB/Duples.
Stephen Ford
13/02/14 – 08:11
Happy days! I regularly travelled on one these workhorses to school. Cumberland provided 2 x MWs, 1 x FS, and 1 x FLF for the school run from Seascale to Egremont during the mid 1970s. In addition to the standard MW6G buses there were also a few MW oddities, numbered 222-226. These had been downgraded from coaches or dual-purpose vehicles and at least one of them still had comfy seats! The MWs were especially suited to working routes that followed narrow winding roads into the valleys of the Western Lake District, including the 79 from Keswick to Seatoller, the 65 from Cockermouth to Buttermere, and the weekly 11 from Whitehaven into Wasdale. They also performed well on the less busy southern section of the long coastal route 12 from Whitehaven to Millom. The tight curve under the low railway bridge at Seascale determined a change of vehicles and an MW could just squeeze through with an inch on either side. Happily 231 is preserved having been purchased when it was withdrawn in 1980 by Richard Solyom, a Keswick schoolboy who travelled on it every day.
Mike Morton
13/02/14 – 10:50
This bus was actually new to Cumberland in 1963 but was kept in store for a year before it entered service. Surprisingly in view of its operating territories sparse population Cumberland was the most profitable NBC company just before the NBC was dismembered.
Chris Hough
13/02/14 – 13:28
That’s very interesting regarding profitability. There were a number of rural routes though most of them were in the urban area between the coastal towns and former mining areas: Egremont, Cleator Moor, Whitehaven, Workington and Maryport plus the busy route from Whitehaven to Carlisle which still exists as a Stagecoach Gold service. The other factor may have been the large number of works contracts, especially for Sellafield.
Mike Morton
13/02/14 – 17:30
For a number of years my family had a Hotel in the Borrowdale Valley, (The Hazelbank Hotel in Rosthwaite), so I know this area very well. The Bristol MWs, now long since gone, were replaced by the Leyland National, the Mark 2 variety, with out roof pod, if memory serves me right. This run up the valley must be one of the nicest in the Country. I have in my collection a picture of 231 at the Seatoller Terminus in 1979, ready to operate back to Keswick. It is shown here.
Stephen Howarth
14/02/14 – 07:07
Yes, interesting comments about profitability. Being a bit parochial, I would have thought Yorkshire Woollen would have been close to the top of the list as regards profitable companies, indeed, Don Akrigg’s “Colours of West Yorkshire” book described it as “the BET’s goldmine” and with services into cities such as Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield and large towns like Halifax and Huddersfield, with numerous smaller ones in-between, one can understand why it was once a thriving network. To go back to Cumberland, as a matter of interest, does anyone know why, after decades of the Seatoller service being numbered 79, Stagecoach changed it to 78 a couple of years back?
Dave Towers
14/02/14 – 17:10
Dave a good point about YWD in the same area YTC must have been profitable too Cumberland were seen as top dog in the run up to NBC dismemberment when YWD no longer existed as such being under West Riding management.
Chris Hough
15/02/14 – 06:52
Always thought this was a neat little body on the MW and always preferred the 6Gs. I’m sure Westmorland and Cumberland were better tackled with this engine.
David Oldfield
15/02/14 – 15:29
Chris Hough- the profitability of BET companies like YTC and YWD would be interesting to know: YWD seemed to suffer acute shortages of working buses, whilst the old YTC seemed to trundle round potentially crowded routes with a fleet of oldies and goldies- including oddities taken on from other operators. We don’t seem to have old YTCers on this site? Were these companies cash cows to finance the conglomerate’s expansion?
Joe
16/02/14 – 07:50
A lovely photo from Don who draws attention to the raising of the roof line to accommodate the T-style destination. It very much depended on which past of the Tilling empire you were familiar with as to how unusual this was for down in Essex this was very familiar on Eastern National’s bus versions. Indeed when returning to the family’s home in Widnes/Runcorn there always seemed something odd about Crosville’s examples.
Rob McCaffery
18/02/14 – 08:09
Living Bristol Omnibus territory when I was a boy I remember riding on BOC MWs frequently to and from school in Wells. There were several allocated to Wells depot. They were fitted with T-style destination boxes front and rear. Made them look very odd to the Western National MWs I encountered.
Richard Stubbings
19/02/14 – 15:05
I remember reports in the newspapers (may it even have made television news?) about Richard buying this bus – it did give me a false-hope that my parents may have somehow contrived to buy for me a suitable YWD single-decker. I also remember a holiday in Seatoller around 1972, and remember watching these MWs come and go – they seemed very quaint to me back then, usual single-deck fare around Halifax having BET recessed or twin-curvature screens. Despite my entreaties we never took the opportunity to ride into Keswick on one . . . and the opportunity to ride on an MW never subsequently presented itself. Regarding the profitability of ex-NBC companies, I’m surprised that Cumberland was top-of-the-list in the run-up to privatisation – did the transfer of Ribble’s Carlisle-area workings have an influence? In the early 1980s I’m sure that Northern was the most profitable NBC subsidiary . . . but these things come and go. YTC’s profitability must have been hit by the decline in the mining industry (less colliery specials, less disposable income for travel), as must YWDs by the decline of the heavy woollen industry – indeed Arriva’s current network is just a shadow of that which the NBC inherited in the area. And both YWD and YTC must have generated a lot of income from the Yorkshire-Blackpool express traffic and other excursion traffic, which just evaporated through the early 1970s.
Philip Rushworth
19/02/14 – 17:28
He was definitely on the local Border TV news Philip. It gave me false hope too – I was offered one of Barrow Corporation’s Massey bodied PD2A/27s for £150.00 at around that time. Even if I had been able to raise the money my parent’s drive wasn’t big enough to park it! It’s a pity none survived – I always remember the big sliding entrance doors.
Mike Morton
25/02/14 – 16:41
The 79 was renumbered 78 because from c2006 Stagecoach in Cumberland found itself with two 79s- the other one an ex Western SMT route north of Carlisle which a group reorganisation had transferred into their hands. On the profitability point, in 1970 (a terrible year for the NBC) I remember trade press reports that only Cumberland and Southern Vectis had turned in a profit. By that time Yorkshire Woollen – and Hebble’s fleets – were in a terrible state. I remember decrepit Regent Vs belching out blue smoke and the desperate enthusiasm with which YWD fell on Sheffield’s C fleet double deckers when the Joint Omnibus Committee was broken up at the end of 1969. Yorkshire Traction, by contrast, were in a much better state, I think the only second hand example sin the fleet had come as a result of company takeovers.
Phil Drake
26/02/14 – 07:54
If you look at photographs of the Yorkshire Woollen and Hebble fleet around 1970 you will see that there was no company pride. Bumps and scrapes not repaired and the bad sight of diesel stains when overfilling. Some of the destination displays were not 100 per cent.
Philip Carlton
25/03/14 – 15:30
Somewhat surprisingly, Colin Shears, who is usually a parochial West Country enthusiast, mentioned to me that Cumberland used to run Bristol SC4LK’s along Borrowdale. Would this be the route they were used on?
Peter Cook
26/03/14 – 10:59
The SC4LKs in the Cumberland fleet were known as ‘Sputniks’. According to Harry Postlethwaite in his excellent Venture publications history of Cumberland, it is alleged that the first driver to take one out said, on his return. “They should have sent that up in the Sputnik!”. That said they must have found them useful for the lightly loaded rural routes because the 5 purchased in 1957 and 1959 were supplement by 3 from United Counties and 1 from United Welsh in 1963 and a further 3 from ENOC a year later. They were used throughout the network from the web of services on the Solway plain south as far as Millom and inland to places such as Ennerdale Bridge, and on the 79 from Keswick to Seatoller. Despite this being a scenic route that penetrates the Lake District fells it follows the valley floor and, unlike parts of the coastal route, has no stiff climbs. All of these routes were later served by the MWs.
Mike Morton
31/03/14 – 07:12
Great picture. Can anyone help me with details of routs/timetables special schools and works services operated by CMS Cumberland Motor Services.?
Alisdair Goodall
02/04/14 – 08:26
Apart from timetables, the best source of information is ‘British Bus Systems No.1 – Cumberland’ by Harry Postlethwaite, published by TPC in 1983. This was later brought up to date as ‘Cumberland Motor Services 1921-1996 and published by Venture. Routes have inevitably changes over the years, especially following deregulation and take over by Stagecoach which brought in routes and vehicles operated by Barrow Corporation, and by Ribble in South Cumbria and Carlisle. Until privatisation the main area of operation was the former county of Cumberland. The main trunk route was the 30 from Whitehaven to Carlisle via Workington, Maryport and Wigton which took just over 2 hours with a headway of 30 minutes through much of the day. Other key longer routes included 12/13 Whitehaven – Egremont – Seascale – Millom, and 34/35 Whitehaven – Workington Cockermouth – Keswick. There were also town services, and a network of rural routes including market day only routes such as the Thursdays only 11 from Whitehaven to Wasdale and the 26 to Ennerdale as well as tourist routes such as the 79 Keswick to Seatoller. There was also parcels traffic and schools and work services. The latter usually carried the destination ‘works’ and included heavy traffic to Sellafield from various destinations (service 85) and from Workington to Lillyhall estate for Courtaulds, Heavy Duty Alloys and K-Shoes (service 90). There were also services to local collieries and iron mines – I often caught a school bus that had just come off the Beckermet Mine turn on a wet day, its floor red from the iron ore. There was also the 87 from Maryport and Workington to the West Cumberland Hospital at Hensingham (Whitehaven).
Mike Morton
30/10/14 – 07:06
Ex Eastern Counties ONV 430 was stabled at Cleator Moor and used on Service 44 from Cleator Moor to Workington via Moresby Parks, Pica, Distington and Harrington for several years. I clocked up many hours as a passenger on this route in the late 60’s and early 70 and I can confirm that it struggled with several of the ascents on this route – especially the climbs out of Harrington if it had to stop at Beckstone Bridge. If I remember rightly it was replaced by a LH (XRM 111J ??) before Cumberland closed the Cleator Moor depot and ran Service 44 from Workington to Pica with this service being operated by whatever was available – even coaches and DPs found themselves at Pica.
Smudge
06/02/15 – 06:35
The service 90 actually had the destination “Workmen”. One of these carried on from the Lillyhall industrial estate round the loop road in Distington to form the Schools service 43 in the 80’s. This was an unusual route as members of the public could use the bus up to Workington bus station after which it carried on to Workington Grammar School and then on to Clifton. Standard fare on this route in the early 80’s were MWs LHs and flat front REs with T type destination blinds. You needed strong arms in those days as they often rostered vehicles with sticking doors.
Ken Anderson
06/05/15 – 07:22
Nice photos my dad Tommy Thompson was a regular driver of that vehicle, he was a Whitehaven driver.
Darren Thompson
09/10/15 – 07:21
Mike Morton. You may remember me from schooldays. Occasionally I remember a really old single-decker (pre-A reg) turning up as the first bus from Seascale to Egremont. It had battered green leather seats with high curved backs and the engine was rather noisy, but I really loved that bus! Do you happen to remember it and if so, do you know what model of bus it was? I hope it has been preserved.
Karen Caldwell
09/10/15 – 17:19
Hello Karen Lovely to hear from you. That’s an incredible memory and very accurate too. The first bus that turned up on that school run was usually a standard Bristol MW bus like 231 above. However, if we were lucky, it would be one from an odd batch of that had formerly been coaches but had been converted for use as buses. These were also Bristol MWs but they dated from 1958-1960. They were numbered 222-226 (registrations VAO 390, XAO 600-601, 511-512 BRM) and some, if not all, were exactly as you describe with those curved leather seats. You can just make out the seats in the following photo of the last of them: https://www.flickr.com/photos/23207961 Sadly none have survived though 231, the standard MW in the article, is alive and kicking and regularly turns up at events all over Cumbria. The buses that followed that first one on the school run were usually a rear entrance and then a front entrance double decker (Britol Lodekka FS and FLF models). One of the former 550, which we often caught to school, has also been preserved.
Mike Morton
09/10/15 – 17:22
Karen, I remember from my visits to Keswick and district in the mid 1960’s that, before Cumberland took over the service, buses to Grange and Seatoller were operated by the ‘Keswick Borrowdale Bus Services’. According to Neville Mercer’s book “Independent Operators In North West England”, they ceased operating in 1967, and the three Bedford ‘OB’ types still in service then found homes elsewhere. Neville’s book says that two of them survive.
Pete Davies
01/01/16 – 06:53
With regard the Leyland Nationals most likely the B series these originally based on short version and simplified heating hence no pod. Introduced about 1977. Cumberland had some of first examples but many went to Crosville to replace MWs the series 2 Nationals came in early 80s and had front radiator and available in either length as type A with pod or B type without pod.
Howard
02/01/16 – 08:53
The Keswick Borrowdale Bus Services was a wonderful organisation. The contrast between the well kept OBs and the intrusion of the new fangled MW was quite something. Although the legal capacity of the OBs was considerably less than the MW the practical capacity of the OB was defined as all those that wanted to go to Keswick! The OBs always managed to keep the customer happy. If I remember correctly, only the CMS vehicles went to the bus station, the others terminating at the Moot Hall in central Keswick. My last trip on this route was on a Stagecoach open top VRT. I seem to remember it was a whitish mobile advertisement hoarding rather than the dedicated “Borrowdale Bus”. My ever suffering wife recorded the familiar sounds of the Gardner engine both in motion and idling at Grange. This made an interesting comparison with the sound of the Cummins engine of an Olympian effortlessly attacking Dunmail Rise. The evil weather has dealt a severe blow to this area and our thoughts go out to the residents.
Andrew Gosling
02/01/16 – 14:45
Even the OBs couldn’t expand to infinity! I recall waiting for the bus near Lodore, one summer evening after a long day’s hike. I guess there were a dozen or so waiting. Mr Weightman’s OB hove into view and everyone stood up expectantly. With a regretful wave from the driver, the bus sailed past – with an apparently solid mass of humanity inside! Fortunately, someone spotted a launch far out on Derwent Water, heading for the landing stage…
Stephen Ford
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
09/06/17 – 06:21
A great route and responsible in 1954 for my life long bus interest. Weightmans are not recorded as having an OB, but Askew, Simpson and Youngs, (as well as Cumberland), did. Weightman though was latterly associated with Lake Hotel coaches and they did have OB’s. Weightman sold out to Cumberland in 1958 and the three remaining operators-with OB’s to the end-formed the Keswick Borrowdale Bus Service that lasted until 1967 when Cumberland then got the whole route.
Typical but not typical! On Sunday, June 28, 1964, a Bristol MW5G (typical) Wells depot bus stands at Clevedon Six Ways awaiting departure on service 157. This was the first day of operation of a new (not typical in those days!) Sunday only service to attract tourists. The service didn’t run in 1965! The destination display was the BOC standard at the time, I think known to ECW as the Z layout. It was unique in the Tilling group for having a four track number display, adopted to cope with the addition of suffix letters became rife. In the city, L (short working) W (works service) and the route variations A, B, C and D were added to existing route numbers that could already have three digits.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
31/01/16 – 13:33
I grew up in Bristol and had never heard of this 157 service, maybe not surprising at it was so short lived. Suffix letter W was not used for works services. F, H and J were those generally used for extensions beyond Filton to the aircraft factories or beyond Avonmouth to the smelting and chemical works. C was used for journeys on cross-city routes terminating in the central area. K was used for school services – K for Kids, we all assumed! Bristol city services were renumbered below 100 in 1966, and at the same time Country routes were renumbered without suffix letters so four track number blinds were no longer needed.
Geoff Kerr
01/02/16 – 07:35
This picture brings back happy memories of schooldays in Wells and riding these vehicles on service 165 to Glastonbury. They were in the very smart OMO livery with more cream then.
Richard Stubbings
04/12/19 – 07:11
I have just realised that there is another ‘untypical’ aspect to this vehicle. Like 2568 – C2607, it was built with the air suspension option that became available in 1962. Eric Hardy, Chief Engineer of BOC at the time specified the air suspension option to reduce lifetime costs, including an easier life for the bodywork. BOC was the only company to specify the option for stage vehicles and I heard him complain bitterly when BCV deleted the option for the last sanctions of MWs. It was all very sad that the first MWs delivered on leaf springs to the company after the deletion of the option (2137) had dual purpose bodywork and coach livery! Pondering this anomaly, I wonder if the last batch of leaf-sprung MWs were shoe-horned into production a bit quick to fill a gap because the RE low frame chassis was running late. The outstanding orders for MWs for some companies (eg ECOC) were satisfied with air sprung – no option -RESLs!
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1966 Bristol MW5G ECW B30D+30
One of two strange versions delivered to ECOC at about the time as the first RESLs were being delivered. Who would put a centre door on an MW with its very high centre section of chassis bearing the engine, instead of waiting a few months for a Bristol RE with its unencumbered central lower frame? The centre doors didn’t last long, I understand! I think one of them became the Kings Cliffe outstation (Northants – the furthest outstation from Norwich!) vehicle to carry higher peak loads! Thank goodness for OMO double decks very soon after! The above photograph was taken at Cremorne Lane Works, Norwich on Feb 11, 1967 before the bus entered service. It is nice to know that ECOC buses had destinations other than “SERVICE” available!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
17/03/16 – 05:13
Strange indeed, Geoff. Thanks for posting. Why would anyone in Bristol or ECW want to produce such a beast, knowing that the RE was on its way, and why would Eastern Counties want it?
Pete Davies
19/03/16 – 17:38
Stockport had dual doorway Leopards and Manchester dual doorway Tiger Cubs, Panther Cubs and Panthers and had double decker OMO working not been made legal, would have had many more Panthers.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/03/16 – 05:13
What a different MW. Was this an Eastern Counties one off or were did other Tilling Companies have them? Strange to see the glazed roof coves, on both sides too. Also I would have expected the exit door to be in the next bay forward of where it is.
Ian Wild
17/03/16 – 05:14
Well, to answer your question about who would put a centre door on an MW, Wilts & Dorset did the same to a converted coach. I think it ran for a few years in that form, but I cannot find any photos on the web at the moment.
Nigel Frampton
17/03/16 – 07:54
Thanks for that, Nigel. Converting a down-graded coach is one thing, and I think I have a ‘bought’ slide of it somewhere – I’ll see if I can dig it out for others to see if they wish – but one straight off the factory line?
Pete Davies
17/03/16 – 09:16
This was an attempt, it seems, at a standee bus but where for, I know not. I thought there were some similar Leeds efforts on this site with steep steps and standee windows, but can’t spot them- did they try one or two types?
Joe
17/03/16 – 09:17
The centre door as placed would be the only option – the bay further forward had the engine oil sump come well over to the nearside. The glazed roof coves look to be the ‘standard’ parts from coach MWs and presumably were added because of the standee nature of the bus (for the same reason as Reading’s REs had very tall side windows).
Peter Delaney
17/03/16 – 10:46
Joe, Leeds had saloons with centre entrance bodies all bodied by Roe and all featuring the standee windows. They were repeated on the AEC Swifts with Roe bodywork delivered in 1967. The original standee saloons were on Guy, AEC and Leyland chassis with a later pair of Reliances entering service in the late fifties.
Chris Hough
17/03/16 – 15:22
There is a photo of this vehicle when new in MG Doggett & AA Townsin’s book ‘ECW 1965-1987’. It was one of two trial dual-door standee MW5Gs (LM640/641) delivered to ECOC in November 1966. Each was capable of carrying 60 passengers – 30 seated and 30 standing – but were of differing internal layout. The accompanying caption states “the area for standing passengers was concentrated at the rear of LM640(KAH 640D), there being single seats on each side of the gangway towards the rear to provide a standing area behind the exit doorway”. An interior shot of LM640 shows this feature, together with normal double seats at each side ahead of the exit door. Relating to the second standee MW LM641(KAH 641D), the authors state that “a row of single seats were provided along the offside of the vehicle to give room for a standing area along its length”. A picture of the interior shows this together with a longitudinal seat over the front offside wheelarch, plus normal double seats along the nearside from front to rear. Regarding Geoff’s comment about the height of the steps at the central exit, dual doorway REs also had steps there as the RESL/RELL chassis sloped up gradually towards the rear in order to clear the engine. The exit steps were probably shallower on the RE, but being just ahead of the rear axle I would not have thought by very much though. A fascinating pair of vehicles indeed, and thank you very much for posting the photo of LM641 Geoff. Wonderful.
Brendan Smith
18/03/16 – 09:03
In my response to Nigel Frampton’s comment, I said I thought I had and would try to dig out a slide of the Wilts & Dorset converted coach. It’s attached, as is a view of one of Lancaster’s trio of twin-door Leopards. BOTH are bought, and I’ve no idea who took the originals. The Wilts came via Paul Caudell and the Leopard came via Arnold Richardson’s Photobus collection.
What makes Wilts & Dorset RMR 992 look even more odd is the old coach-type forward door and its kink in the pillar. So far as I can recall, 101 to 103 UTF were the only twin door vehicles Lancaster bought (prior to the merger with Morecambe & Heysham) and I think it must have been something of a failed experiment – the centre door was hardly ever activated on the services I used. Wilts & Dorset RMR 992 is seen at what looks to be Salisbury Bus Station and Lancaster 102 UTF is inside Kingsway depot.
Pete Davies
18/03/16 – 15:52
Never thought I would find myself contributing to a post on an Eastern Counties MW but KAH 641D was the only one of its type that I have ever driven. This came about after ECOC took over Burwell & District Motor Services on 10th June 1979. The new regime, under a youthful Ben Colson went to great lengths to cover B&D commitments as required by the Traffic Commissioners at the time. B&D operated a contract/service (not 100% sure which) at the time to carry pupils from Burwell to Soham Village College which parents had to pay for as the free option was for Burwell pupils to go to Newmarket Upper School, for which B&D provided 3 or 4 buses daily. This bus was drafted in briefly to cover odd runs and my diary records that on Friday 15th. June 1979 I was on a rest day but came in to cover the 08:15 Burwell-Soham service 116 with LM641. This journey was made a short working of the established (and much missed) service 116 from Newmarket to ELy, via Burwell. Fortunately I had my camera with me and stopped in a layby on the way back to Burwell to take a photo as I have always tried to keep a record of every vehicle that I have driven. I was able to wind on the correct route number but with no blind fitted it was not even possible to display the favourite ECOC destination of SERVICE! My PM duty was 16:00 Newmarket school-Burwell with the same bus, no doubt I was paid more for those 2 short journeys as a rest day working than I would have earned from driving back and forth all day from Burwell to Cambridge with B&D. The best thing in my memory of ECOC was the wages, as I only lasted 3 months before they gave me till the end of the week to join the union, so I gave them till the end of the week to find another driver!
Jim Neale
19/03/16 – 06:48
Another batch of two-door underfloor engined single deckers was London Transport’s RW 1-3 the experimental AEC Reliance/Willowbrook delivered in 1960 and sold to Chesterfield in 1963. The exit door on these was one bay further forward and they also glazed cove panels five on the O/S but only three on the N/S none being fitted over the centre door.
Diesel Dave
19/03/16 – 09:27
Rochdale had two batches of AEC Reliances with dual door bodies. Weymann bodied 16-20 and East Lancs bodied 21-23. The East Lancs version had the ‘centre’ door further forward, immediately behind the front wheel while the Weymanns had it just in front of the rear wheel. These buses were all introduced as opo vehicles onto routes previously worked by double deckers which at that time in the early sixties obviously had conductors. The dual door arrangement was intended to speed up boarding and alighting times to counter the delay of the driver having to collect fares.
Philip Halstead
19/03/16 – 17:41
Stockport had dual doorway Leopards and Manchester dual doorway Tiger Cubs, Panther Cubs and Panthers and had double decker OMO working not been made legal, would have had many more Panthers.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/03/16 – 06:42
Looking through the comments made me think and check out my memory and I found yet more two door underfloor single deckers in the form of Lincoln City Transport No’s 81-87 Reg No’s MFE 993-999 Tiger Cubs with Roe B41D bodies with the exit door just in front of the rear wheels new in late 1958. Also Portsmouth Corporation had a batch of Tiger Cubs No’s 16-25 Reg No’s TTP 990-999. with Weymann B34D bodies with the exit door in a similar position new in May 1960.
Diesel Dave
20/03/16 – 08:31
This is becoming a very interesting discussion. My point was that, until the advent of the AEC Swift, Leyland Panther and Bristol RE was that twin-door single deckers were something of a rarity and, yes, even then, many fleets stayed with the single door. All I can think of was that it may well have been an experiment to see if loading/unloading times improved, and by how much, in the early days of one-man operation. My experience is that most operators went back to single door vehicles.
Pete Davies
20/03/16 – 10:07
Although not common-place in the early 50s, more underfloor engined single deckers were built as dual door saloons by Bristol/ECW than the ones mentioned so far. Over a decade before the MW, ECW bodied one of the prototype Bristol LS (NHU 2) with dual doors – in that case with the additional doorway behind the rear axle. Hants and Dorset’s bus bodied LS were all delivered in that format, though converted to front door only in the late 1950s, and United Counties also had batches in similar style, some as DP rather than bus versions, whilst Wilts and Dorset had several batches of dual doorway DP LSs. I think Eastern National may also had an example to that layout. The structure of an LS frame was such as to dictate the position of the rear doorway.
Peter Delaney
23/03/16 – 05:43
Here we see RMR 992 again now with “Hants & Dorset”. It seems to have had a rather hard time of it since it was last washed.
David Grimmett
23/03/16 – 17:17
Such damage in service is so typical of the drop in standards once NBC took over. I say this because the vehicle is clearly not in a depot. Do we know where this photo was taken, David? And I notice that H&D has adopted the useful ECOC destination of SERVICE!
Chris Hebbron
24/03/16 – 05:57
Chris, the later photo of RMR992 looks to be in Salisbury Bus Station. W&D did also make use of “Service” in the destination displays, although not as much as some.
Nigel Frampton
24/03/16 – 05:57
Yes, RMR 992 could still have looked a handsome bus, even with its rebuild to bus use. The mid-door for exit is reasonably done, and the revised indicators are very neat. Even the metal trim below the windows has been retained. However, we sadly miss the Tilling red of Wilts & Dorset or Tilling green of Hants & Dorset, either of which would make this a bus to be proud of. Sadly, this didn’t happen here, with the side dent, and it’s need of a wash. The use of “service” as a destination is also regrettable. Hopefully passengers had a good ride, as it retains the upper windows to lighten the interior.
Michael Hampton
24/03/16 – 05:57
RMR 992 is on the stand, reversed in, in Salisbury bus station. The bus station layout was a reversed L with access from the offside of the bus. It was in the seventies that buses started driving on to this stand and reversing off,rather than reversing on.
Steve Barnett
24/03/16 – 16:56
According to BBF No 1 Portsmouth Corporation had a batch of 10 dual Door PSUC1/1 Tiger cubs Nos 16 – 25 in 1950 and 31 Leopard L1s Nos 131 – 161 in 1961/62/66.
Barrie Lee
25/03/16 – 16:09
Of course the London Reliances were based on the Grimsby Cleethorpes design of which there were 24 (the last ones to the later BET design) and both Chesterfield and Aberdare were also customers. I wonder if it was Willowbrook’s advertisements that led to LT purchasing their three: www.flickr.com/photos/One www.flickr.com/photos/Two
Stephen Allcroft
26/03/16 – 05:14
Barrie Lee has correctly identified the Tiger Cubs of Portsmouth (Nos 16-25, delivered 1959 and into service 1960), but the L1 Leopards were Nos 131-142 (1961) and 143-149 (1963). They were all dual entrance/exit, the Tiger Cubs being B34D+26 (soon altered to B32D+26 for a luggage rack), and the Leopards were all B42D+16. If I recall correctly, the main “standee” space was centrally placed opposite the exit doors. The saloons numbered 150-161 were Panther Cubs new in 1967. Portsmouth had a possibly unique arrangement for the exit doors. Some time ago, I contributed an article about it on this site, “One Small Step for a Portsmouth Passenger”. This arrangement applied to these and all succeeding saloons, plus later Atlanteans until the arrival of the Leyland National.
Michael Hampton
26/03/16 – 05:14
Halifax JOC took delivery of a solitary L2 Leopard with Weymann two-door body in 1961 (231, OCP 231). It was not viewed with favour by the drivers’ union membership and I believe the centre door remained closed in service. It lived a shadowy existence in this form, being mostly banished to working the local Field Lane and Oaklands services based in Brighouse. Another sixteen similar Leopards based on the more appropriate L1 chassis and with single door layout were due in 1962, and 231 was soon sent back to Weymann to be rebuilt to match them.
John Stringer
27/03/16 – 07:30
Regarding RMR 992: did this just retain an unpowered front coach door after conversion to dual-door configuration? – both photographs suggest the door is locked open.
Philip Rushworth
27/03/16 – 09:56
I remember traveling on RMR when it found itself at Romsey outstation and I’m sure the door front door was electrically run as it was one-man operated (as we used to know it!).
Steve Barnett
28/03/16 – 11:12
I am reasonably sure that, in David Grimmett’s photo of RMR 992 (23/03/16 at 05:43), the vehicle is, in fact, still in Tilling Red. It is the same shade as the adjacent LH, which is clearly still in Tilling livery, the cream window surrounds being the determining factor. Accepting that colour reproduction can vary on different computer systems, monitors, etc, but this colour looks quite different to the rather orangey appearance of NBC red in the first couple of years. H&D applied NBC style fleetnames to a lot of vehicles that were still in Tilling liveries, and this roughly followed the instructions of the NBC corporate image policy. However, that required the cream relief to be repainted white, even if the complete vehicle was not painted, and that white fleetnames should be applied. In practice, H&D seem only to have used a few white fleetnames in this way, and most of the temporary ones were cream, which better matched the original livery, and the cream relief was also left untouched. Presumably, since RMR 992 didn’t have any cream relief, it was deemed appropriate to use a white fleetname. H&D and W&D purchased several single deckers with dual doors from the 1950s to the early 1970s, but there seems to have been a distinct absence of logic. The LSs all seem to have been rebuilt to single door configuration quite early in their lives, but then, from the mid 1960s, virtually all new single deck buses had two doors – the Bedfords, the RELL buses, and even the first deliveries of LHs. The RELL DPs had only one door, but soon tended to be used interchangeably with their dual door bus-seated sisters, particularly when the earlier DPs were replaced on longer distance services by newer deliveries. The passengers were no doubt simply confused, and probably found the five extra seats of the DPs more useful than the extra door. When Leyland Nationals took over from REs as standard single deck fare, the dual door policy was abandoned altogether.
Nigel Frampton
28/03/16 – 13:33
The motto of 360 Squadron, Royal Air Force, seems to apply in Nigel’s explanation of the H&D/W&D liveries under NBC – CONFUNDEMUS (We shall throw into confusion).
Pete Davies
08/04/16 – 06:09
Peter D mentions older two door ECW LS bodies. They were built in the era before OPO (if that is the PC phrase). I suspect that the management attitude was that the conductor would be at the rear to look after that door, despite being power operated. I am sure most conductors would gravitate to the front to chat to the driver. The ‘Do not speak to the driver…’ notices were a later addition required for the certification of a vehicle to operate OPO. With regard to ECOC LM641, I was interested to see that two vehicles had different internal layouts. I was area engineer in the east then and both vehicles probably ‘went west’. I also surmise that the vehicles were part of GM Tom Skinner’s innovations see Eastern Counties – selected memories and that they may have been initiated before the delivery of REs was anticipated. The final MW deliveries were getting so late that many Tilling companies had their orders truncated and centrally(?) replaced by RESLs (the nearest replacement, rather than RELLs). I don’t think the 46 seater RESL caused Union problems at ECOC, being one over the more normal 45 seat maximum, but going beyond that certainly needed negotiation in all companies! In Jim Neale’s photo of LM641 from 1979, it is interesting to see that the last nearside quarter light has been reglazed with black rubber – the cream version didn’t stay in production for very long. I would have expected the front destination to be so treated, for in the eastern area the MW destination glass was just the right height to hit a tardy pheasant that had been taken by surprise and several needed replacement on outstation based vehicles!
Geoff Pullin
13/05/16 – 06:04
The “Omnibus Magazine” of June 1967 states that LM640 and LM641 were allocated to Bury St. Edmunds and Peterborough on March 1st 1967 but had returned to store at Norwich within two weeks. Clearly they weren’t very popular!
Western National Omnibus Co Ltd 1966 Bristol MW6G ECW C39F
I’m sending you this picture of Bristol MW EDV 502D and EDV 505D because they entered service with Western National in May 1966 – 50 years ago this month. 502D was built in the Jan and 505D in the April. They are Bristol MW6G with ECW C39F body. Unusual in being in Royal Blue colours but with Western National branding in red. They were the third and final design of Bristol MW and some of their detail you can see in the Bristol RE Coaches. They look just as elegant and modern 50 years on. They came together for a special photo shoot at the Taunton running day on May 8th 2016. EDV 502D had been in service during the event running trips to Wellington. EDV 505D had been on static display. The owners drove them round to be photographed in Taunton bus station. They are next scheduled to be together during the Royal Blue Run in June. There already previous pictures of Royal Blue runs on your site. These two vehicles came out of Western National service in 1978
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
19/05/16 – 06:24
Nice, Ken! Thanks for posting. It’s very rare to see sisters posed like this . . .
Pete Davies
25/05/16 – 17:59
Of course Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Trust look after ex Western SMT MSD 407-8 and the vehicle history suggests they’ve been together in service and preservation ever since they were bodied at Stirling. //gvvt.org/stock-list
Here are two more views indicating what a difference a coat of paint makes, especially if it’s the same colours applied in a different style on the same vehicle. SWO 986 was new to Red & White in 1958. It is a Bristol MW6G with ECW C39F bodywork and – in the first view above – the fleet number is UC758. We see it in the Weymouth rally on 1 July 1979.
In this second view it is in what many of us would consider to be more of a coach livery, but with fleet number DS758. It is seen here leaving Winchester Bus Station on 1 January 2009.
Eastern National Omnibus Co Ltd 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW C34F
Whilst on holiday in mid Wales in 1971 this coach parked opposite us whilst its passengers enjoyed an ice cream from the conveniently sited van. The location is the Elan Valley from where the large reservoirs fed water to the Birmingham conurbation. The Eastern National coach was along way from home on an extended tour of Devon and the Wye Valley. The 34 seats would have given plenty of legroom. BLOTW gives the original fleet number as 562 but it shows PL9360 here. Is PL a depot code? At nine years old the coach looks in good fettle. This style of ECW coach body caused quite a stir when introduced – very different from previous ECW designs- but quite pleasing in retrospect. And what about the registration number – would be worth a lot of money now!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
01/06/20 – 07:35
The code PL refers to Prittlewell Depot which was located in Southend and was an ex Westcliff-On-Sea garage, there was also another ex Westcliff-On-Sea garage in Southend which used the code SD.
Ian Mason
01/06/20 – 07:36
Contrary to appearances, this was actually Tillings Travel PL9360 when the photo was taken. It started life as Eastern National 562 in May 1962 becoming 360 in the August 1964 renumbering. It passed to Tillings Travel as 9360 in January 1971. PL indicates that it was allocated to the Prittlewell (near Southend) garage of Eastern National which maintained the Tillings coach fleet. 9360 passed to Silcox of Pembroke Dock in late 1973 where it served until 1982. The saga of vehicle interchanges between Tillings Travel and Eastern National has already been covered on this website but I can’t work out how to link to the appropriate page.
Nigel Turner
01/06/20 – 07:37
Apparently this vehicle was renumbered 360 in Aug 1964 then transferred to Tillings as 9360 in Jan 1971. //www.bristolsu.co.uk/mw/ However the picture clearly shows Eastern National as fleetname. PL was the garage code for Prittlewell (a former Westcliffe depot) //www.sct61.org.uk/
Stephen Clough
01/06/20 – 07:38
The original fleet number, 562, was changed to 360 in 1964, and the 9 was added when it became part of Tilling Travel (NBC) in 1971. PL will be Prittlewell – depot at Southend. Tillings Travel (THC) Ltd had had some similar MWs from new, also with 34 seats. I have an ECW drawing which shows that those had additional interior luggage shelving at the rear of the coach – in the equivalent space to the 5 person back seat as I recall.
Peter Delaney
01/06/20 – 07:39
PL is the garage code of Prittlewell, and the 9xxx denotes this was a Tilling allocated vehicle. New 5/62 562 (ironic), became 360 in the 1964 fleet renumbering scheme, then transferred to Tillings Travel in January 1971. The two fleets were closely associated until National Travel (South East) Ltd took control of the coaching unit in 1974.
City of Gloucester/Western Travel 1969 Bristol RELH6L ECW DP49F
Gloucester’s first public transport was horse trams, in 1887, then electric trams in 1904, immediately becoming municipal. Livery was crimson lake and cream, becoming battleship grey during WWI and remaining so until closure in early 1933. Interestingly, during WWI, track was ripped up from little-used sections and used to extend an existing route to Brockworth Airfield. A tram was then converted to pull railway trucks some 6 miles through the streets! Good job the route was virtually flat! Replacement bus services started in 1929, using a succession of Vulcan Duchesses and Thorneycroft BC’s (all, bar four, with normal control) , with Gloucester Railway & Carriage Works bodywork, the original tram livery being reinstated. Later on, four of the oldest Thorneycroft vehicles were, oddly, sent all the way to C H Roe in Leeds to have their entrances moved to the rear of the vehicles! On 12th June 1936, in a novel move, Gloucester Corporation leased their services to Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company Ltd. All vehicles in the Corporation fleet were officially transferred to the Bristol company from this date, although the actual transfer had already taken place in the April. As part of the agreement, the former 35 Gloucester Corporation vehicles did, however, continue to carry Gloucester on the side and bear the city’s coat of arms, a fitting reminder of the days of Gloucester Corporation Transport. In fact, the coat of arms continued on the agreed number of buses, right through nationalisation with the National Bus ‘N/Shadow Arrow’ logo, too, and on until Stagecoach West took over Western Travel’s empire in Gloucester, Cheltenham and Swindon, in 1993. Western Travel painted their buses predominately in blue, which brought some colour after the dreary red and greens which hitherto had covered the country and, in the early transitional days, still also bore the double ‘N’ Arrow. They inherited and continued to run Express services, some of which were seasonal, to such places as Bath, to Weston-s-Mare and to Coventry (via Stratford on Avon). They also ran a really long-distance one to Weymouth and it is on the seafront there where we see Bristol 2062 (WHW 374H), a 1969 dual-purpose Bristol RELH6L/ECW DP49F body in City of Gloucester dual vehicle colours at Weymouth Rally – June 2011. This example was never in dual-purpose colours, but sister-vehicles were and it has only just been painted in this livery, for a few months, as a tribute to Gloucester public transport. Note the Gloucester Coat of Arms as well as the shadow ‘N’ logo. I travelled on one of the type to Coventry on one occasion and found them very good for DP vehicles. Certainly better than my going to Weston-s-Mare on one occasion on a Leyland Olympian – 45mph for 70-odd miles on the M5, but with a good view from the top deck when we finally glimpsed the sea! By this time, these services were on borrowed time, what with vehicle and driver shortages; a shame really, for, in my experience, they were always well supported.
Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron Photograph by kind permission of Rob McCaffery
04/09/11 – 07:45
As a coach enthusiast, after the ZF Reliance, the RELH is my favourite vehicle and whilst I have no problem whatsoever with the Gardner engine my preference is for the RELH6L. Having driven both, this is not purely an “enthusiast” thing. The featured vehicle had DP seating but many similar vehicles elsewhere had the very comfortable full coach seating, making them suitable for National Express – if not touring. As a student, I travelled many happy miles on such East Midland vehicles (both Gardner and Leyland powered) as well as the North Western and Ribble RELH6Ls with MkII (my designation) coach body. My first long distance REL6G “cruise” however was by West Yorkshire on Yorkshire Services from Sheffield to London. In old age, I now find myself with both musical and PSV connections in Gloucester.
David Oldfield
08/10/11 – 05:46
Western Travel each depot had its own colour, with yellow flash Cheltenham red. Stroud green. Swindon red. Gloucester blue. Coaches, as per depot. Service trucks yellow. Vans as per depot.
Mike
29/04/12 – 07:56
The RELH with ECW coachwork was really solid, quiet and comfortable vehicle to ride on but the early models with crash gearboxes combined with it’s rear engine took some time and practice to master rewarding when you got the knack. The ECW body had one major fault which became all too obvious the first time you had one on a busy express run with a load of luggage and it rained, there was a small luggage locker behind the engine with the door in the usual position at the rear when that became full the underfloor lockers had to be used the doors to which were quite shallow but heavy and fitted at the lowest part of the side panels which being within the wheelbase meant they collected all sorts of muck and water in the aforementioned rain which made opening them in those conditions unpleasant to say the least. The overall low build of these vehicles meant that even looking into the lockers let alone putting in or removing heavy suitcases was not good for your back muscles. The later Plaxton bodied had higher mounted and lighter locker doors which made them much easier to use and less dirty and painful. The later semi-automatic gearbox made them much more pleasant to drive, I too preferred the Leyland engined version.
West Yorkshire Road Car Co 1964 Bristol RELH6G ECW DP47F
A while back I posted a gallery of photos taken on the occasion of a Farewell to Samuel Ledgard tour in 1967. Taken on the same day at the start of the tour is this one showing West Yorkshire Road Car’s fine Bristol RELH6G/ECW coach ERG5 (AWR 405B)loading in Bradford’s Chester Street Bus Station. Behind is our tour coach – Ledgard’s Tiger Cub/Burlingham Seagull UUA 794. Alongside is West Yorkshire’s SBW28 (KWU 388), a Bristol LWL6B/ECW B39R new in 1952 as no. 451 but renumbered in 1954. It was withdrawn in November 1967 and sold to North’s the dealer in 1968, passing to Drury (Northern) Ltd, Huddersfield for works transport. Behind the LWL is SMG11 (MWR 222), a Bristol LS5G/ECW B45F new in 1954 as EUG11 with DP41F seating. It had been rebuilt by ECW as B45F in 1958 and renumbered SUG11, but then renumbered again to SMG11 (in the MW series) in 1962. It was withdrawn in 1968 and also sold to North’s.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
15/01/13 – 14:49
My first solo visit to London from Sheffield was on one of these. (E reg. – but I didn’t record which one.) I knew I would not get a ZF Reliance – SUT didn’t do Yorkshire Services and East Midland didn’t do the Sheffield diagram. The ZF Reliance remains my favourite but the RE was a revelation and started my “love affair” with the marque and model both as passenger and as driver. A magic carpet ride and smoothly quiet. Was this only the ’60s? [Stephen Morris once said that standards of ride and engineering were never bettered than on the AEC Regal IV – the same could be said, especially of rear engined vehicles, of the Bristol RELH6G/L (and sisters)].
David Oldfield
15/01/13 – 17:38
In Lancaster, we used to have West Yorkshire vehicles coming through on the X88, which ran between Morecambe and Leeds/Bradford. So far as I can recall, these were usually from the CUG/EUG/SUG classes of LS, but we had the more modern MW types from time to time. I have a view of one of these in the background of a slide of one of the Standerwick Atlanteans, but it isn’t suitable for publication. With the others, there were obvious differences, but why was the example above not a full CRG???
Pete Davies
16/01/13 – 05:13
Probably due the peculiarity of official designations by BTC/ECW for these early coaches, Pete. If they had full destination blinds (including number boxes) and powered folding doors, then they were designated DP (express). If they had a single piece coach door and small destination blinds without number box they were designated Coaches. DPs included United’s 43 seaters fitted out to the most luxurious specification for the long trek to London. [Including the arm-chair like seats, a notable feature of RE coaches.] This looks like one of these United-like “DPs” – although 47 was the usual capacity for these REs.
David Oldfield
PS: The new Weymann Part 2 book designates Sheffield’s Fanfare Leopards as Express. The only difference between them and any other Fanfare produced is the full destination display – including number box.
16/01/13 – 08:40
Thanks, David!
Pete Davies
16/01/13 – 17:15
I agree with David Oldfield’s comments regarding the quiet comfortable ride of the ECW bodied RELH6G I think because the bodywork was so solidly built with good sound insulation and as they normally had only 47 seats quite spacious for passengers. Driving on the other hand especially on the early 5 speed manuals took some getting used to as hearing the engine note to time gear changes was not easy but once mastered it gave genuine satisfaction, the main bugbear was what seemed to be too wide a gap between the 2nd and 3rd gears which was present on all RE’s coach or bus that I drove. Also be careful selecting reverse on those type if the heater control was in the mid position in it’s quadrant as it was very easy to trap your finger very painful, but for all that I am glad to have driven the vehicles of the 60’s and 70’s rather than the automatic power operated point and steer vehicles that have followed since then where I would feel more of a wheel hand than a driver.
Diesel Dave
17/01/13 – 05:28
Yes. As an operator friend of mine once said, “I want professional drivers, not steering wheel attendants.” As a fan of the ZF manual box [I know, not available on REs] I have only ever driven semi-automatic REs. Pleasurable, nonetheless. The gap between ratios on 2nd and 3rd gears was always far more noticeable on the Leyland Leopard, though.
David Oldfield
18/01/13 – 06:35
I have always been a fan of the RE despite an unfortunate incident involving one. In 1973 I went from Salisbury to Swindon for the purposes of a vasectomy. The deed was done and I caught the service bus home. At the time this route was shared by Wilts and Dorset and Bristol Omnibus and it was the latter’s RE that I boarded. Despite a dose of aspirin and decent suspension I felt every bump! At the short stop in Marlborough I had a walk round but was very glad to reach Endless Street bus station, which incidentally the asset strippers are going to sell now. Several years ago I saw a preserved example at the Warminster running day. It pulled away with that glorious Leyland sound and distinctive transmission noise and a shudder went through me.
Paragon
18/01/13 – 06:36
A lovely shot John, crammed full of interest – and doesn’t that cream and red livery really brighten up the wet weather scene? I cannot help but agree with David and Diesel Dave’s comments regarding the RE coaches. I had a real soft spot for them and thought they looked elegant and restrained, and as you say David, gave a very quiet and comfortable ride. West Yorkshire provided a coach for interested Central Works and Harrogate depot staff to visit the 1970 Earl’s Court Commercial Show. The company provided ERG7, their only ERG with semi-automatic transmission. It was such a smooth and gently powerful beast, and our three drivers (fitters Johnny Berry and Malcolm Houseman, and I think, driving instructor Johnny Parker) drove it as taught. Each upward gearchange was paused in neutral, to allow the Gardner engine’s revs to ‘die down’ before the next ratio was selected, and the changes were barely perceptible. Only the engine and exhaust notes gave the game away that the next gear had been selected. David’s comments are correct relating to the designations – ERG being Express, Rear engine, Gardner, as the class had bus-type glider doors and a bus-style destination layout. They were painted cream and red, denoting their ‘dual-purpose’ status. The full coach version (CRG) had a one-piece coach door, and had a smaller coach-style (two aperture) destination display. Livery was cream and maroon, as befitting their more prestigious duties, and the coach version also sported a deeper aluminium trim strip beneath the side and rear windows, which was also ribbed. By the way David, if the coach you rode on to London was E-reg’d, it would have been CRG1 (OWT 241E), as it was WY’s only E-reg’d RELH. It was always my favourite WY RELH, and was company’s only manual gearbox CRG. It also had a fascinating history all of its own!
Brendan Smith
18/01/13 – 08:14
Brendan, thanks for that. Would that mean it was the RELH6B that was an “unfinished” test bed vehicle built sometime before 1967? After fulfilling its test duties it was re-engined with a Gardner and sent to ECW to be properly finished.
David Oldfield
18/01/13 – 11:03
Just like Brendan I have the very greatest admiration for all versions of the Bristol RE. Having at one time had many relations in the South I was a fairly regular traveller on the London services and the RE coaches were above reproach in all respects, particularly quiet smooth running and supreme comfort – we have every sympathy with your predicament Paragon but the Bristol can scarcely be blamed for that, and what a mercy you didn’t have to travel home on some of today’s ghastly apologies. The Bristol RE service bus was equally impeccable in every way – not least in tidy professional ECW appearance. A well known driver who at one time used to write very balanced, sensible and informed articles about various models once gave the RE a wicked slating, saying that its road holding was nothing short of dangerous etc etc – I was amazed by this obviously genuinely meant opinion, and could only reflect on what he might have thought to a wet road and an AEC Swift with most of the load in the rear area !!
Chris Youhill
18/01/13 – 11:38
…..or a Leyland National 1…..
David Oldfield
19/01/13 – 06:21
I once caught the by then National Express coach from Wigan to Leeds in the mid seventies I was somewhat surprised when an ECW bodied RE West Yorkshire coach arrived. The ensuing ride was a bit of a Tardis moment; a superb ride in a seat that todays body builders would do well to study. A well driven bus complete with conductor of vintage years. Incidentally did ECW ever change the seat support design (on the aisle end) in the last 40 years prior to their final closure? All the ones I’ve ever seen look like they were designed in the thirties.
Chris Hough
19/01/13 – 06:53
Oh yes, Chris, those were the days…..
David Oldfield
19/01/13 – 09:48
I’ve done Penzance to Aberdeen over three days as a passenger in Roger Burdett’s Royal Blue RE a couple of years ago. Great comfort and large windows to look out of – very good indeed
Ken Jones
19/01/13 – 11:35
Yes David, CRG1 was indeed the Bristol RELH6B test bed vehicle you describe (chassis number REX003). It did have a turbocharged Bristol BHW engine fitted at one point while with Bristol C. V, which was based on a horizontal version of the BVW unit. As you say, it was later fitted with a Gardner 6HLX engine, and the body kitted out to full coach specification. The BHW engine never went into production, which was a pity in some ways, as the sound effects would no doubt have been quite interesting, whether in turbocharged or naturally-aspirated form.
Brendan Smith
19/01/13 – 14:40
I used to be quite pally with some of the drivers who worked these on the Newcastle/London run, and they all spoke very highly of them. To me they always looked dignified and quietly restrained in United’s olive green and cream coach livery ‘the vehicles that is and not the drivers’ sad to think that some of these coaches ended up in the anonymous all white corporate image livery of National Express
Ronnie Hoye
19/01/13 – 18:01
—- sorry but I think these vehicles looked really good in the NATIONAL livery and I’m glad that OTA 640G is carrying this livery in preservation. It looks sleek and stylish, but I know such a comment might upset people who always want to see vehicles in original liveries, but here again there are already a number of Bristol RE coaches preserved in Royal Blue livery.
Ken Jones
20/01/13 – 05:04
Ken. You could be right, but a Duple or Plaxton looks horrendous. The ECW gets away with it because of its parallel straight line.
David Oldfield
20/01/13 – 12:26
My point is not so much that they didn’t look nice, some types suited the livery very well, but it was the fact that they all looked the same. Pre NBC the BET group used a wide variety of vehicles with many instantly recognisable liveries, but even the more uniform Tilling fleets still had a certain amount of individuality, Royal Blue and United being classic examples. However, when they became NBC they lost all that and became anonymous and boring.
Ronnie Hoye
20/01/13 – 12:28
In the mid 1970s I used to travel quite frequently between Purley and Eastbourne by National Express. The vehicle that usually turned up was a National Travel (South East) [aka Timpson] Bedford YRQ carrying a Willowbrook Spacecar body, and the thing always made a meal of the gradients along the Caterham Valley and across the Weald. The standard of ride was truly awful, pitching and bouncing over quite ordinary road surfaces, and the bodywork itself seemed to be exceedingly plastic and crude. At weekends, the outbound trip from Purley was sometimes duplicated by an RE such as that shown in Ken Jones’s photo, and the contrast in high passenger comfort and effortless road performance could not have been greater. Having driven YRQs with bus bodywork, I suspect that much of the problem with the NT(SE) coaches was the Spacecar body, which soon acquired a notorious reputation for fragility. The Bristol RE was an outstanding design, and Stokes couldn’t wait to kill it off in favour of the Leyland National.
Roger Cox
03/03/13 – 07:57
An RE was the best for the passenger and the driver. It did depend on the suspension type and I drove my first one in the mid 60s for United Counties from Northampton to London. Once on the motorway she could be opened up and the front seemed to rise slightly and she was away. The steering was good and ideal for town work as well. Going through was a doddle. I drove a lot of RE’s for the Royal Blue and they were just as good. They were good for luggage also which helped to distribute the weight. They would not cope with the size of some of the suitcases which are in use these days.
Jim Stapleton
03/03/13 – 10:49
The ECW coach body on the RE was a thoughtful blend of traditional and modern design based on excellent engineering and quality standards of build. At the time there were a good number of outstanding looking (and quality) coach bodies available on a Leopard and Reliance chassis and of course BMMO had their own excellent contender, but for pure class in every department nothing beat the RE/ECW combo and it survived to look the least bland in National’s so called livery.
Phil Blinkhorn
14/06/13 – 12:11
Diesel Dave’s comment regarding the difficulty in hearing the engine to time gear changes, reminds me of the many journeys I made between Newcastle and Leeds on these vehicles. Most drivers kept the cab window open to hear the engine/exhaust. One chap though, who I regarded as the absolute expert, used a different technique. On the up changes, the gear lever would be offered very gently to the next position. You could see the stick vibrate but such was the delicacy of touch that no grating sound could be heard. When the revs were right, the vibrating ceased and the lever just fell into the next gear! At the other end of the scale we once had a Northern General driver (I have no idea why) who had never driven an RE before. We crunched and ground our way south with the driver trying to avoid changing gear whenever possible. To his credit, he admitted that the problems were down to him and not the bus.
Bob Hunter
29/12/13 – 16:21
When I started work at Keighley depot there was DX types SMGS SMAS SRGS VRS LHS lots of conductors the real thing always on time very rarely missed not has comfortable I remember KDX 39-44 69-71 93-96 KDX 133-145 162-166 I think KDX 138 was based at Skipton along with VR 44 later to be 1944 SRGS were good to drive with the semi auto-gearbox I went to Lowestoft to bring back the Leyland Olympian I brought 1801 I think it had a Vorth gearbox 2 more of my fellow drivers brought 1802 1803 these were taken to Harrogate then later they came to Keighley also around that time the Leyland National was introduced the DXs and SRGs where disappearing.
John French
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
26/06/17 – 07:20
Well good folks of OBP, I have to apologise most profusely, and especially to our David O, for peddling mis-information on 18.1.13 relating to West Yorkshire’s CRG1. I have only just realised, whilst browsing on OBP that CRG1 was not WY’s only E-regd RELH. For some inexplicable reason I had totally forgotten about CRG2-4 (PWR 858-860E). I could blame this on the ‘short’ E-registration letter year (‘F’ suffix registrations commencing in August 1967, heralding the letter suffix ‘year’ changing from January to August) or I could blame teenage excitement on the arrival of the five dual-door RELL6Gs (SRG34-38:PYG 652-656E) overshadowing all else, but it was neither. I’m now off to eat a large slice of humble pie with a few green beans!
Crosville Motor Services 1966 Bristol RELL6G ECW DP50F
Crosville had a very large operating area, and Aberaeron Depot was almost 100 miles from the Company’s headquarters at Chester. Here we see three of the Company’s earlier RE’s lined up in the Depot yard. ERG 595 registration HFM 595D was one of Crosville’s only three examples of the RELL6G in it’s earliest version, with manual gearbox and the first style of ECW bodywork. These three vehicles were the first dual-purpose RELL’s, previous dual purpose RE’s for other operators having been based on the RELH chassis. These three vehicles were new in the short lived dual-purpose livery of cream with a single green band. Although fitted for OMO from new, they were initially used with conductors on the Chester – Caernarfon “Cymru Coastliner” service. Eventually ERG 593 and 595 were eventually transferred to Aberaeron depot, where they were used on the lengthy services southwards from Aberystwyth. At the end of their lives they were fitted with bus seats to increase their capacity on school workings. SRG 10 registration OFM 10E was a standard RELL6G bus, one of the earliest examples with semi-automatic gearboxes and the second body style. Although the long bus version was the most common variant of the RE model, only about a third of Crosville’s 317 RE’s were of this type. CRG 496 registration 5458 FM was a 1963 RELH6G coach, one of Crosville’s first quartet of RE’s. Having been used on the Liverpool – London express services, it was now living a quieter life in rural Mid-Wales.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
26/09/13 – 06:42
RE; my favourite rear engined bus; RELH; second only to the ZF Reliance in my coaching affections. Ironic that I’ve only just posted (with the King Alfred Bridgemaster) about the abortive attempts to put AH691s into REs. A very nice shot of a classic trio.
David Oldfield
26/09/13 – 18:04
I totally agree with you David. One man operating was more of a pleasure when driving an RE, and for me the longer the journey the better. I’d rather drive a country service any day than monotonous town services around Cambridge. We had two of the manual gearbox RE’s which were referred to by everyone as RS’s. They had a top speed of about 80+ which I discovered one day on the 428 service to Bedford. I hadn’t any passengers on at one stage of the journey, and kept my foot down on a long straight section to satisfy my curiosity. The later RE’s with semi-auto gear selection were my absolute favourites especially the coaches…. luxury for both passenger and driver.
Norman Long
27/09/13 – 07:01
Yes, Norman. I had a RELL6L on the M4 once which just flew. (I had to reign back because the unladen front was coming off the road surface.) …..and I fully agree about the RELH – true luxury for driver and passenger.
David Oldfield
27/09/13 – 10:56
One of the best coach journeys I ever made was aboard an ECW coach bodied RE. The seats were very comfortable the leg room adequate and the coach gave a wonderfully smooth ride. The coach was far from new but would still knock modern stuff into a cocked hat.
Chris Hough
28/09/13 – 07:21
For a while I lived in Chipping Sodbury and worked in Bristol, and my evening journey home was usually on a semi-automatic RELH6L coach cascaded to bus duties, which made for an extremely relaxing end to the working day. The only problem was that because 234&5 on the gear selector were in the same positions as 123&4 on the more familiar four-speed version, the drivers changed gear at the same speeds. So the engine never really got into its stride before changing up – most frustrating, and a good thing there were no serious hills on the journey!
Peter Williamson
29/09/13 – 10:45
A delightful trio. I concur with the praise of the RE coach. I was smitten from a young age by long Royal Blue journeys from Victoria Coach Station to Bridport and Perranporth. And those preserved today are still robust, strong and comfortable, with none of the rattles and harshness of modern coaches. I believe that the manual gearbox version had the edge on top speed, although the semi auto might have been an easier driver’s coach.
Petras409
30/09/13 – 15:41
In the early 1970’s, I and my young family were fairly frequent users of the overnight Scottish coach service from Edinburgh to London Victoria (then travelling on by coach to family in Clacton or Portsmouth). The coaches were the stylish Alexander M-type, supplied on a variety of chassis. At one point, SBG distributed a survey to all the passengers, and I remember completing one part of the comments section with my opinion of the ride the different makes offered! Who knows what the recipients thought of that. I don’t recall what comments I made about AEC (sorry, guys) or Seddon (not sure whether these had been introduced at the time). But I do know that I stated I found the Leyland Leopards hard or harsh on springing, and the Bristol REs a nice soft ride for a night-time sleep. (But, regrettably – and a pointer to the future – , I found that Volvos were the most comfortable on this journey). So I can largely concur with the comments here on the Bristol RE in it’s other forms as coach and bus – even though I am not a driver. (And, yes, some drivers on the SBG service really did make a change en-route on the motorway, with the vehicle in motion – I’m sure I wasn’t dreaming it!)
Michael Hampton
30/09/13 – 17:42
Well it was a party trick that H & S wouldn’t countenance now but lots of things happened when we were lads! As for Volvos, they were a later generation and cannot fairly or safely be compared.
David Oldfield
30/09/13 – 17:43
They were some long journeys, Michael, in time and distance. Your mention of moving driver-changing reminds me of one experience of this. Around 1970, my wife and I, impoverished, decided to have a cheap holiday and booked a Cosmos 10-day one to Lido de Jesolo for £29 each! I think it was rail to Dover, then a Belgian Railways passenger ferry to Ostende. A driver with an Alfa Romeo coach met us and off we went. After about an hour, we stopped by the side of the motorway and picked up another driver who took over and the original driver went to the back of the coach to sleep. The driver could not seem to get the hang of the eight-speed gearbox and there was a smell of burning. The original driver took over the wheel (without stopping) and carried on until we had a late-meal stop at Aachen. We were halfway back in the coach and, throughout the night, kept hearing loud talk and loud bursts of laughter from the front. When we stopped around 5am for a “comfort break” it transpired that the relief driver had disappeared at Aachen and the original driver had continued at the wheel, inevitably starting to fall asleep at the wheel periodically! Being British, those nearest the driver did not ask him to pull over and take a rest, rather they kept a close vigil and started the false loud chatter/laughter to wake him up whenever he drooped! We were glad to be well away from the drama at the front! Suffice to say we arrived safely and many more hilarious things, not bus-related, occurred during the holiday!
Chris Hebbron
01/10/13 – 06:30
About six years ago, I was involved in driving a summer time shuttle from Uxbridge to Les Deux Alps (in the south of France) taking students snow-boarding. To comply with hours, and also keep a tight schedule, we had four drivers – but we always stopped at proper halts by the road side. I had an interesting drive down the side of the mountain on a typical zig-zag road. Now changing on the move there would have been VERY interesting…..
David Oldfield
02/10/13 – 07:13
I never had the pleasure of driving an RELH6G, but I knew a couple of United’s drivers on the Newcastle/London route, and they spoke very highly of them. United always specified a lower seating capacity for the vehicles on this route, and the extra legroom made them very popular with passengers. They were worked hard, but well looked after. A six hundred mile round trip to London was nothing unusual for them, one crew took them down, then stay overnight or through the day, the vehicles went to London Transports Victoria depot, where they were cleaned out, refuelled and checked over before returning north with a different crew who had come south the previous night or day, then the same routine at the Newcastle end. On occasion, they were used on the Lowestoft or Glasgow runs, or on private hires and excursions. Some of them must have clocked up a phenomenal mileage during their lives.
Ronnie Hoye
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
02/12/13 – 11:22
Just came across this site whilst looking for a picture to show my kids of the type of buses I went to school on. Amazed to find the actual buses! From 1975 to 1980 I went from New Quay to school in Aberaearon, initially on older rounded front buses, possibly Bristol LS’, then from about 77 on these beauties. They were still in use when I finished school but were joined by a Leyland National, which for some reason we called ‘The Prison Bus’ can’t remember why, it may have had something to do with the plastic seats and lots of bars/grab rails. I think the white one on the right had big coach like opening roof vents that you could fit a school bag out of, don’t ask me how I know!
