Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1959 Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
I have the only fully restored red and cream Bristol SC4LK! It is ex Eastern Counties LC 556 (3003 AH). It was new to ECOC in Jan 1959 and served the company for 11 years. Following withdrawal in 1970, it passed via Ben Jordan, the famous Norfolk bus dealer, to Monk Contractors of Warrington as a staff bus. From there it passed to dealer, Martins of Middlewich, who sold the bus on to the Archbishop Sancroft RC High School in Stoke on Trent, where it served as a school bus until 1983. Whilst there, it made the long journey to Brittany in North East France, taking pupils of the school on a field trip. Upon withdrawal by the school, the bus passed to an Oxford bus enthusiast for preservation, but sadly the owner became ill and the bus sat in his garden for a number of years under trees where it slowly adopted an all over green livery! When the enthusiast passed away, his widow sold the bus to Ward Jones, a motor dealer and enthusiast in High Wycombe, together with an Eastern National example (608 JPU) which the Oxford enthusiast also had in his garden. I discovered the bus ‘through the grapevine’ in the summer of 1993 and made an offer for it, which involved salvaging usable parts from the Eastern National one to make the Eastern Counties one complete. The bus was then towed all the way back to her old operating territory and stored on a farm in south Norfolk. Serious preservation then got underway over the next eleven or so years and the restoration was finally completed in Summer 2005. This was my third preservation project, the other two being LM 452 (3014 AH) 1978-84 and LL 711 (KNG 711) 1984-88, both ex Eastern Counties and a 1958 MW5G and a 1950 L5G respectively.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Patrick Burnside
12/03/15 – 16:38
Like Patrick’s other vehicles, this is a superb restoration. It is one of only two SCs that I have ridden on, the other being an Eastern Counties one which was working a crew operated Norwich City service in 1973 at a time of extreme vehicle shortage.
Nigel Turner
12/03/15 – 16:39
Fascinating Patrick, and a creditable restoration. If you have one, could you post a ‘before’ photo?
Chris Hebbron
12/03/15 – 16:40
I used to travel to and from school between Ely and Soham on this type of bus (1960)…maybe even this one, if it ever worked from Ely depot.It would have been nearly new then…Years later, and I found myself driving one or two of them at Cambridge, just before they were withdrawn (1970). They were very noisy…lots of rattles…and that awful gearbox, plus having to turn to the left and issue tickets to passengers boarding behind you. They were referred to by all as LC’s. However, 3003 AH looks really well restored, and the picture brings back happy memories of my time at Hill’s Rd depot, Cambridge.
Norman Long
14/03/15 – 12:54
There is a shot of this bus when it was owned by the Archbishop Sancroft on www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
13/10/15 – 08:48
I only drove an SC (ECOC LC) for a short movement when I was area engineer at ECOC, but the drivers used to tell me that it was the (David Brown off the shelf) gearbox ratios that caused most difficulty with a large ratio jump between 2 and 3 or was it 3 and 4 and hence the need to run the engine to high revs before the up change. Incidentally I saw the prototype SC in service with BT&CC (or was it BOC by then?) – after which they no doubt decided it was not for them. Bristol territory is hilly and I think only one back axle ratio was available for the SC. All Bristol’s Bristol buses had the lowest axle ratio available compared to other operators (In the K, L and MW days it was 6:1 rather than the 5.5:1 – didn’t do much for top speed until the 5th gear appeared on KSWs).
I attach a photo of LC566 – the only one with an all fibreglass body (no panel strapping!) parked at Melton Constable in Autumn 1968 on Service 401 one of the earliest rail-replacement routes that replaced the Gt Yarmouth – Kings Lynn railway.
Geoff Pullin
12/01/17 – 09:10
Responding to Geoff Pullin’s note on the SC, I think the big jump is between 2nd and 3rd. Top speed in 2nd is 15mph, but in 3rd at 15mph the engine struggles. My own reminiscences of the SC as a Bristolian are that I had never even seen one until the opening of the Severn Bridge after which I used to regularly go to such places as the Forest of Dean and Abergavenny where Red & White operated a total of 7. The cab interior is strange, particularly the partition at the rear of the cab and despite seeing them on the road quite a few times in the late 1960’s I don’t think I realised quite what the inside looked like until seeing interior shots on t’internet.
Peter Cook
12/01/17 – 13:56
There was a second fibreglass bodied SC, a “self-coloured” green one for Crosville, 237 SFM, fleet No. SSG 664.
Allan White
13/01/17 – 06:52
Lincolnshire RCC had quite a lot. Fine on the flat lands of South Holland, but contrary to popular opinion, Lincolnshire isn’t ALL flat. I remember travelling on an SC one dark damp Sunday evening about 1959, route 3 from Cleethorpes to Lincoln, and it made heavy weather, very slow and noisy, with lots of 2nd gear, over the Wolds section between Ravendale, Binbrook and Tealby.
Stephen Ford
13/01/17 – 06:53
This is a photograph I took on board Patrick’s SC at the Old Buckenham Rally in August 2015. Patrick is at the wheel. I had never ever ridden on one of the type before.
David Slater
13/01/17 – 09:37
I drove the SC type for Tillingbourne – 2 ex ECOC (TVF 537 & 6560 AH) and 1 ex Crosville (790 EFM) – quite often, usually on the hilly Guildford – Peaslake route that had to surmount the North Downs between Merrow and Shere. The gear positions from the left were: forward for reverse gear, back for first, over and forward again in the central gate for second, back for third, then over to the right and back again in a ‘U’ movement for fourth, and forward from there to engage fifth. One normally started off in 2nd gear, but the detent spring protecting the left hand gate was pretty weak and one had to be careful that reverse wasn’t engaged in error. As I recall, the gap in ratios was between 3rd and 4th, and 5th was a feasible option only on the level and downhill. The SC was an idiosyncratic little machine, and keeping time with it was a challenge, but it was a decent enough little bus and I quite enjoyed driving the type. Yes, it was quite noisy, but nowhere near as raucous as the ear splitting Seddon Pennine IV. Those 3.8 litre 4LK engines were tough little workhorses.
Roger Cox
13/01/17 – 10:06
Lovely period interior picture: I assume that the cream colour is a proper Tilling shade as it looks like that rich homely nicotine colour of fond memory. Notice how it also looks as if the ticket machine is totally unprotected and positioned for a quick exit… and not a camera in sight! Happy days…
Joe
14/01/17 – 07:02
It may be that the ECOC ones had cream ceiling and upper interior sides. The Red & White ones had Rexine on the insides of the window pillars and luggage racks of a colour which might be charitably described as mushroom or uncharitably as sludge. I can only assume the idea was that it would not show cigarette smoke staining as it was pretty much smoke-stain colour in the first place.(I can post a picture to illustrate the colour if anyone is interested). Ceilings were (?broken) white when they started apparently. I remember these colours also as being applied in similar places to the BOC MW saloons of the same period.
Crosville Motor Services 1957 Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
Crosville was one of the main users of the Bristol SC4LK model, with a total of seventy nine examples, of which fifty five were buses and twenty four were coaches, although the latter were soon downgraded to bus status, without being greatly modified. The first batch were new in 1957, numbered SC1 – 16. but in May 1958 they were renumbered SSG 601 – 616. These vehicles were a familiar sight in most of the Company’s Welsh areas, with their small size making them ideal for running along single-track roads. The Gardner 4LK engine resulted in extremely good fuel consumption (over 20mpg) but limited their speed capability. It was often said that they could climb any gradient, but might take all day to do it! After withdrawal, SSG 612 was used as a maintenance vehicle for the Runcorn Busway, numbered G612. This enabled it to be bought for preservation and restored to its present superb condition. In April this year, the bus, now carrying its original number SC12, was used for a Crosville Enthusiasts Club outing, revisiting some of the routes which used to be operated by this type. it is seen here at Cwm Swch, having just left Cwm Penmachno, the terminus of Crosville’s route from Llanrwst and Betws-y-Coed. This route is nowadays covered by Llew Jones using Optare Solos – a very poor comparison, although it can perhaps be said that the Solo is a modern day equivalent of the SC!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
16/06/16 – 05:52
Arguably, United must have covered the largest geographical area of any Tilling/BTH group company. I don’t know how many vehicles or depots they had, but numbers at each varied from a handful up to a hundred or more. Many operating areas were similar to those of Crosville, but so far as I am aware, United avoided this particular Bristol/ECW offering like the plague
Ronnie Hoye
16/06/16 – 05:52
Nice view, Don, and not just of the bus! Thanks for posting. Here’s a silly question. It’s clearly a full-fronted vehicle which, in most circumstances, would be recorded as ‘FB’ or ‘FC’, so what was it about the SC series that it was felt B or C alone would suffice?
Pete Davies
16/06/16 – 09:41
By way of comparison, I attach an image from a slide of a standard Bristol MW6G bus SMG 373 taken in the early 1970s on service M3 seen returning to Llanrwst – the driver kindly stopped to permit the photo. At the time the SC and MW types were the regular vehicles on the Llanrwst country routes – those were the days.
Keith Newton
16/06/16 – 10:18
The Bristol SC series was designed and always built as a full front vehicles, never as a half-cab. Therefore the decision makers in the PSVC decided that a plain B or C would suffice. The same rule is applied to Bedford SB, Ford 570E and Commer Avenger coaches. I don’t think I have ever travelled on an SC4LK. From the descriptions here and elsewhere, I’m glad I didn’t do so in their hey-day, but curiosity today might just make me try one at a running day!
Michael Hampton
16/06/16 – 12:37
The attached photo was taken from the bridge looking to the terminus at Cwm Penmachno again in the early 1970s and again the driver had kindly stopped. The running times in those days were very generous even for an SC and the Llanrwst drivers were always very friendly towards a young English enthusiast riding into deepest Wales. With grateful thanks to them.
Keith Newton
16/06/16 – 13:22
Thank you Michael.
Pete Davies
17/06/16 – 15:55
In answer to Ronnie’s query my 1967 Crosville Company Fleet List shows there were 1,173 buses + coaches plus 15 service vehicles in the fleet in an ’empire’ stretching from Newcastle-under-Lyme in the east to Aberaeron in the west. That’s throughout England and Wales of course, and 32 Depots plus 3 sub-depots (outstations) ranging from 1 vehicle at Barmouth to 123 vehicles at Wrexham. Referring to the Bristol SC4LK I agree with all the comments about them, but nevertheless have a soft spot for them, I suppose because they were such a nostalgic part of my summer holiday bus riding in North Wales. The cacophony of the engine noise and the vibration on a long uphill gradient such as ascending the Crimea Pass could likely induce a nosebleed in those susceptible, and combined with the competing din of twenty-odd housewives chattering in Welsh on a returning market day service from Llanrwst to Blaenau Ffestiniog would ensure your ears not just popping but actually ringing for ages after you hurriedly made your exit in Duffwys Square! That was the R34 service from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llanrwst taking all of 1 hour and 10 minutes. I think the reason why the smaller vehicle was chosen in preference to an MW was that between Betws-y-Coed and Llanrwst, unlike any of the other services linking those towns, it operated down the western side of the Conway Valley, i.e. via Cwmlanerch and then had a tight turn onto the river bridge at Llanrwst. It operated two return journeys from Blaenau Ffestiniog throughout the year, although I should think that it was occasionally suspended in winter when snow afflicted the Crimea Pass! Those two journeys were denoted in the timetable by L, indicating Llanrwst Market and Fair Day. It then helpfully mentioned that Lanrwst M.D. was Tuesda , but would not operate in the week of Fair Day (Wednesday following the first Tuesday of the month) when it would operate on the Wednesday instead! Such operational trivia used to be common in rural area timetables all over Britain. In North Wales other Market Day/Fair Day footnotes were necessary for Denbigh and Ruthin. To digress a little I used to live near Lancaster and the Ribble timetable for service 79/80 between Lancaster and Knott End on Sea had amongst the various codes the footnote: ‘On the occasions when the tide renders the direct route between Conder Green and Glasson Dock impassable, the route will be diverted via Upper Thurnham’. Today, a ‘dyke’ has been constructed making such interesting diversions away from the cold muddy River Lune estuary well and truly a thing of the past. Back to the SC’s. The subject of Dan’s article SSG 612 was perhaps in Dan’s photo of the late 50’s, allocated to Llanrwst. In 1967 it had migrated to Pwllheli, or Porthmadoc outstation, maybe for the Borth-y-Gest /Morfa Bychan service. The other allocations, including the downgraded 33 seater ‘coach-seated versions (CSG’s) were: AN Aberaeron 1 AYH Aberystwyth 4 AMH Amlwch 2 BR Bangor 8 BF Blaenau Ffestiniog 2 CFN Caernarfon 9 CR Chester 3 CWN Corwen 3 DH Denbigh 6 DU Dolgellau 2 HD Holyhead 2 JT Johnstown 5 LL/T Llandudno Town 4 LJN Llandudno Junction 5 LT Llanrwst 6 MYH Machynlleth 3 OY Oswestry 2 PI Pwllheli 5 Incl. Porthmadog O/S) RL 5 WXM 2 (Total = 79)
SSG 612 and sister SSG 613 were eventually preserved,even appearing on Crosville Wales heritage services in the mid 90’s. Perhaps someone else will be able to continue that story.
David J. Smith
25/06/16 – 06:32
Thanks David for the garage allocation. My sister lived in Wales for much of the 1960s, in various locations between Barmouth and Harlech and I had a vague memory of seeing a Bristol SC in Barmouth. The allocation list shows a couple at Dolgellau, so no doubt I will have seen them –and ridden on them – on the S34 service between the two towns. I reckon all enthusiasts will have some regret about disposing of items many years ago which they wish they had kept. Mine would have to be a complete set of Crosville timetables, five volumes I think, from the late 1960s. I would give my right arm to still have them. There must be dozens and dozens of small Welsh villages which no longer have a bus service and it would be fascinating to read them.
Dave Towers
27/06/16 – 06:40
To conclude the small gallery of Crosville Bristol SC buses I am attaching two more photos of SC12. This was used in the 1990s along with SC13 on various vintage services by Crosville. It is seen on the service based at Bangor which linked the town with both Beaumaris on Anglesey and Penrhyn Castle which is owned/managed by the National Trust. As far as I am aware this was the first time a bus service had entered the grounds of the castle.
Keith Newton
02/10/16 – 06:00
SC12 was renovated at Crosville Motor Services Sealand road central repairs in Chester in the early 80s. I was an apprentice who along with others worked on the bus. As it was being completed Enigmas Film Productions hired the bus for a Chanel Four film directed by David Putnam. The film was called “Experience Preferred but not Essential†(look it up on you tube and you will see the film). My dad Eric Manley was a driving instructor at the time at Crosville and was the driver in the film. The film was based in Phylleli North Wales in the 60s however it was filmed in Douglass Isle of Mann as in the 80s Phylleli was not as it was in the 60s.
Kevin Manley
24/01/22 – 06:34
Buses Jan 1991
I restored this bus in the 70s and sold it back to Crossville Wales. It was a strip back and total restoration. I have pics of every stage of this restoration which answers many of the queries I read in the feedback so far. I am happy to send these to anyone who can use them. I heard that SC 12 had been badly damaged in a front end collision? So she may have been scrapped? I last saw SC13 at The Llandudno rally in about 2007, now privately owned.
R & R Coaches t/a Beeline 1956 Bristol Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
The lightweight SC (small capacity) vehicle emerged in 1954 and was the Bristol/ECW offering for BTC lightly trafficked rural bus routes. Every opportunity was taken to save weight. The chassis longitudinal members were simple straight lengths of channel lacking intermediate transverse sections, and the body was sheeted in fairly thin aluminium. The axles were reputedly sourced from Bedford, and the five speed gearbox, with its idiosyncratic selector positioning between third and fourth, came from the David Brown company. Three prototypes were constructed, the first, 724 APU, fitted with the Gardner 4LK engine and classified SCX4G, was delivered to Eastern National in November 1954. This was followed by 725 APU in December 1954, but this had the Perkins P6 engine and was called the SCX6P. This bus later received a 4LK engine in 1958. The third prototype, another 4LK powered SCX4G, went to Eastern Counties in December 1955, and as all subsequent SCs were powered by the 4LK engine, the classification thereafter was amended to the familiar SC4LK. Production, including the prototypes, totalled 323, Lincolnshire being the greatest user with 113 examples, followed by Eastern Counties with 88, Crosville 79, and Eastern National 22. The other BTC companies took the SC in penny numbers only – United Counties 6, Cumberland and Thames Valley 5 each, Red & White 4, and United Welsh just 1. The little 3.8 litre 57 bhp 4LK had to work hard in the SC, a duty not helped by the curious ratios of the David Brown gearbox. The gap between second and third has been noted by a number of commentators, but, in my experience of driving the type, it was the gap between third and fourth that truly restricted progress. This necessitated the revving of the engine to its absolute maximum before attempting to change up, a move that frequently proved abortive so that a change back down again was immediately required. Thus the engine spent much of its time at its 2100 maximum revolutions with a deleterious effect upon the eardrums of driver and passengers alike. The gearbox offered a fifth gear that was only of feasible use downhill or on the level with a following wind. The SC remained in production until 1961, during which time Dennis had been collaborating with Bristol in respect of the Loline, and one wonders if the Guildford company could not have offered the Falcon gearbox, available in four and five speed versions, for the SC instead of the impractical David Brown unit. The picture shows former Lincolnshire Road Car No. 2414 NFW 655, delivered new in May 1956 and sold on in 1969. I photographed it in service in July 1970 with R & R Coaches, Bishopstrowe, Wilts, trading as Beeline. The location is New Canal, Salisbury, formerly a section of the long defunct Salisbury and Southampton Canal which was closed in 1806. This bus was withdrawn by Beeline in May 1972 and its subsequent fate is not recorded. R & R Coaches still exists but it would seem that the company was reconstituted in 1971. I acknowledge the detailed Bristol Vehicles Website as the source of much information:- //www.bristolsu.co.uk
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
08/02/21 – 06:41
I once rode on a Lincolnshire SC4LK from Goole town centre to my lodgings in the town and my abiding memory is that I was glad it was only a short ride on such a noisy and uncomfortable bus.
Stan Zapiec
08/02/21 – 11:57
I’m a dinosaur, Stan, and still think that there is no substitute for cc. Many BTC/THC companies thought the same and, where possible, used an LS5 or MW5 in preference. SC and SU only made sense in the flat lands of Lincolnshire and the Fens – and yet Crosville, United and Western National used them in the Hill Country. There is sometimes no accounting.
David Oldfield
09/02/21 – 06:08
I think it must have been about 1958/59 that I travelled on an SC4LK on Lincolnshire’s route 3 from Cleethorpes to Lincoln on a cold wet January Sunday evening. (No train service on Sundays). The wolds section Ravendale, Binbrook, Kirmond-le-Mire, Tealby is seriously hilly – not your typical Lincolnshire flat lands. The whole trip was a growling/ screaming assault on the ears – about an hour and 40 minutes of it if I remember rightly.
Stephen Ford
09/02/21 – 13:36
We hated these on Eastern Counties. They were very noisy, and rattled everywhere. Plus, to take fares the driver had to swivel right round to the left, and work through the central gap behind. As luck would have it, I joined the Cambridge depot in 1970, and they were soon to be withdrawn.
Norman Long
10/02/21 – 06:19
I’m struggling to visualise how the chassis would work without any intermediate transverse sections, does that mean there were some but only at the front and rear? Presumably the bodywork played some part in keeping the whole thing together but I don’t think these were semi-integral were they? How would the completed chassis be sent from Bristol to Lowestoft? Would some temporary spacers be inserted?
Chris Barker
14/02/21 – 07:04
Chris, I cannot now recall where I first learned of the simple layout of the SC chassis, but the body structure definitely contributed to the integrity of the entire vehicle. My long held belief was endorsed by Peter Cook’s comment of 02/11/2019 under Eastern Counties – Bristol SC4LK – VVF 540 – 540, and Peter owns one of the type.
Roger Cox
28/03/21 – 07:57
Further to David Oldfield (8/2/21) Western National’s SC lookalikes were actually rebuilt and rebodied L6Bs, which should explain their hill-climbing ability. United didn’t have any SCs, but they did have five SUs.
David Call
29/11/21 – 06:27
Interesting to read the comments here, and mine are similar. We moved to the county of Merioneth in 1971 when I was 9, and our Crosville service was Dolgellau – Machynlleth and return three times a day and none on Sundays. Usual fayre was MW5s which as a young boy I liked. SC4LKs were occasional visitors and I assume one was kept as a standby bus at Machynlleth. The journey to school was on the Aberllefenni – Tywyn school bus which was contracted to Crosville until probably 1975. Out of season we were treated to a coach, mostly CMG 523 as I remember, but come the summer we had whatever was available at Machynlleth garage – an MW5 or an SC4.The latter were awful particularly when climbing. The return from school involved a hill climb between Abergynolwyn and Talyllyn, then the main climb from the Cader Idris junction up to Upper Corris. Noisy, rattley and generally lacking in stamina are three attributes, but the informative piece explains it all. I have recently bought an Anbrico whitemetal model and intend to repaint it in Crosville livery as a childhood reminder.
United Automobile Services 1955 Bristol LD6B ECW H33/25R
Not many of these deep radiator versions made shame really I quite liked them. This photo was taken at Scarborough on the round about by the railway station.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The original deep radiator versions of the Lodekka were indeed attractive machines but after the first 18 months or so of production (around late 1955) the first body modifications began with the shortening of the radiator cowl (compare with the picture of United FS6B L108 here). The deep radiator cowls were known as ‘long apron’ types.
United Automobile Services 1964 Bristol Lodekka FLF6B ECW H38/32F
I am not sure if the Lodekka actually had a version number i.e. I, II, III as the Regent III, V for example if any body knows please let me know. I did like these front entrance Lodekkas, the three things I remember most is the low step to get on, how brightly light the interior was at night but best of all was the whine of the engine, being used to AEC and Leylands at home the Bristol or Gardner engines were very different.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The best United engine noises of all were the final batch of Bristol FLF Lodekkas delivered between January and May 1968. These F-registered machines were fitted with Gardner engines and were the first non-Bristol engined buses in the fleet. A Bristol-type whine was accompanied by a very powerful growl as I remember – very impressive. Also, this final batch were even brighter inside than normal. The interior panelling was finished in all-over cream formica as opposed to the normal dark green which made them feel light, spacious and very modern. They were lovely vehicles to ride on!
Incidentally, you may like to know that I am the author of a book on United’s buses entitled “One And Two Halves To The Clock”, which is my own story of growing up as a lad in the 1960s in Redcar, North Yorkshire – a seaside town deep in United territory!
Colin Plucknett
Although Lodekkas did not have version numbers as such (ie: Series I, II, III etc), they were split into two broad types – namely LD and F-Series models. The original LD (Low-height Double-decker) series had a slightly sunken lower deck gangway, with the pairs of seats either side of it in effect raised above it. A longer version (LDL) made its debut in 1957, but only a handful were built. As the Lodekka developed over the years, a revised model was introduced. Known as the F (Flat floor) Series, this had as the name implied, a flat floor throughout the lower deck. It was available in four variants: FS (Flat floor, Standard/Short chassis); FL (Flat Floor, Long chassis); FSF and FLF (as for FS and FL, but with the second F denoting a forward entrance chassis). Interestingly, the Bristol BVW engine fitted to many a Lodekka from 1958 onwards did have version numbers. As the BVW evolved, engines became known as Series I, II and III, and could be identified by the serial number stamped on the engine plate. BVW1xxx denoted Series I, BVW2xxx were Series II, and BVWs numbered 3xxx/4xxx etc were Series III.
Brendan Smith
There was a final variation to the FLF series: the very impressive 31ft FLF6LX models, with semi-automatic gearboxes, as operated by Eastern National. Several of them started life with coach seating for the X10 Southend-London Victoria service. In their heyday, around 24 of the 40 plus that ENOC had were allocated to the long 151/251 working from Southend to North London (Wood Green): a 2hr 40min one way trip! Also, one or two were regularly featured on the “On the Buses” TV show. As a Conductor, these were wonderful vehicles to work on, especially on the long haul routes. I also believe the Scottish Bus Group had some as well. They’re the only two operators I know that used them. Any others, anyone?
Mike Harper
05/06/11 – 14:28
Eastern National’s FLF coaches certainly were real stunners Mike, and the 31-footers were handsome machines in either bus or coach form. As you rightly say, several of ENOCs Wood Green FLF6LXs featured in ‘On the Buses’ and were to many of us the real stars of the show. (I wonder if Reg Varney and Doris Hare realised just how privileged they were to work alongside such venerable icons!). At least AEV811F and AVW399F took part in the series masquerading as buses of the Luxton & District Traction Company – and wasn’t it a quirk of fate that the ‘AVW’ registration was on a Gardner-powered bus? You are correct in saying that only ENOC and the Scottish Bus Group took delivery of 31-footers – sadly for some reason they didn’t find favour anywhere else. Relating to the semi-automatic FLFs, I was fortunate enough to ride on Leyland 0.600 engined Hants & Dorset example when on holiday with friends in the 1970s. I had not realised the FLF had either feature until it started up and set off. The pronounced gear whine puzzled me, and it was only in later years I found out this was due to extra gearing in the transmission line. On manual gearbox Lodekkas the gearbox was mounted directly behind the engine, with the drive being taken downwards and slightly to the offside by the design of the gearbox. However, as the semi-auto ‘box was of a bulkier nature, this unit was mounted on the offside of the chassis. The drive was taken downwards and to the offside from the back of the flywheel to the gearbox, using a train of gears – hence the unusual whine emitted. It certainly added a certain character!
United Automobile Services 1956 Bristol Lodekka LD6B ECW H33/27RD
Quite a few lists have United fleet numbers starting with a “B” which I presume denotes Bristol. But as one can plainly see in this photo there is no “B” just L13 does anybody know if United changed there fleet numbering system after 1966. This shot was taken July 1966 at Scarborough bus station.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
In answer to your question about United fleet renumbering regarding the excellent photo of the United LD6B: You are quite right – the B did stand for Bristol. Most of the fleet was renumbered from 1st November 1964 when the B was dropped from vehicle classifications. The company decided it was superfluous since the fleet was almost entirely Bristol by then!
Colin Plucknett
What a fine shot of what must surely be the perfect model of LD Lodekka. No Cave-Brown-Cave radiator intakes to spoil the curvaceous lines, the later cab door with straight rather than curved edge to the lower window glass, a three aperture destination box, and the ‘whiskers’ above the radiator grille. Even the front wheels are set at a jaunty angle! Very nice condition for a ten year old bus and a credit to United. (Good old Charlie Bullock will have driven it a few times around Scarborough in his day, no doubt).
Notts and Derby 1964 Bristol Lodekka FLF6G ECW H38/32F
Yet another photo where I can not remember where I was when I took it same as the previous W Gash photo I presume, any clues anybody? I do have quite a few photos of Nottingham City Transport yet to come so probably a club trip down that way. The photo doesn’t show it too well but bus is in a very dark green and cream.
It’s Mount Street bus station in Nottingham. The buildings in the background are part of the old General Hospital. The bus livery is actually Dark Blue and Cream, the same as Midland General.
Patch
Thanks for that its nice to know where I have been. I am in two minds to change the shot to a black and white as it is very bad colour wise if that is supposed to be Blue, it was Ilford film should have stuck to Agfa perhaps.
Peter
My memory is probably faulty but I remember travelling on a light blue regal on Midland General’s E4 route and lighting in Crich village where I was to spend the weekend at the tramway museum.
I think that MG delighted us enthusiasts by the fact that it bucked corporate dictate from Tilling HQ by not having a Tilling red/green livery.
As I recall Midland General had a light blue livery. It had two subsidiary companies Notts & Derby, including the trolley buses that came to Bradford, wore a dark blue livery whilst Mansfield and District wore non-Tilling green. In due course all three fleets assumed NBC leaf green.
Don’t be too worried about the colour on the image. It is still a wonderfully evocative image
Charles
I think this very dark blue was a latter-day variation. The original was not actually “light” blue, but a very nice, almost royal blue. I think it was actually the same for both MGO and NDT. Have a look here//www.busslides.co.uk/search_bus_pictures_east_midlands.php(and scroll down) for a few examples.
Stephen Ford
Memory plays tricks doesn’t it, had I already said that?, but wasn’t the blue featured on the dual purpose vehicles (in reverse livery) a darker shade than the blue used on the service buses? Nice photo by the way, very handsome vehicle
Andrew
Andrew, yes it certainly was – in fact it was so dark as to be almost, or perhaps actually, black – but only in the later years. The classic (bus) livery was, to my mind, “real blue”. It was an honest to goodness full-bodied shade, and I judged all others (harshly!) by it, including the “washed out” blue that Cambus later used, and the ghastly fading “rail blue” that British Rail slopped all over everything in sight.
Stephen Ford
The blue used from pre war was Williamsons Azure Blue and Tilling cream. Earlier the vehicles carried a lighter blue relief. National bus days meant a change from the cream to white and more blue and so this looked a lot darker but all my investigation would suggest that this was indeed the same colour – it’s always a talking point at rallies between myself and other owners of ex MGO vehicles! I have been involved with several preservation projects all being finished in this colour. Hope this clears things up a bit.
Paul D Chambers
Used to use the old Notts & Derbys buses to Ilkeston and Cotmanhay 1969 & 70
Mickey Summers
02/05/12 – 17:19
I too can confirm that MGO and Notts & Derby Traction wore the same livery, at least post-war. I knew it was an Azure blue, was Williamsons Azure blue a reference to the one time general manager? Did he in fact choose the colours? I have mixed feelings of Mount St bus station. The mix of MGO, NDT, Barton and Trent buses was exciting to me as a child, but I also suffered from travel sickness, so by the time we arrived there from Langley Mill I was feeling quite queasy. Returning to the subject of the blue paint, I remember at one time my parents having a bathroom in MGO cream and a bedroom window in MGO blue. These things could happen when you lived near a bus depot.
Brian Yeomans
03/05/12 – 07:56
And when my mother and I moved from Surrey to Southsea, the house was almost battleship grey throughout, inside and out. It wasn’t long before a neighbour told us that the previous occupant worked in Portsmouth Dockyard and the guy was known in the street a Paintbrush Brill! When I got around to demolishing the ancient shed, it had been made from sailors’ packing cases, still bearing their names, ranks and numbers!
Chris Hebbron
03/05/12 – 09:02
I worked for the railway workshops in Derby, and certain senior managers were believed to have made a little freely with, shall we call them, “surplus materials” and “rail blue” colour schemes were not unknown. (Why anyone should have so little taste as to want their house painted that colour I do not know – now MGO blue, that’s a different matter!) Of one such manager I heard the comment that “It’s fortunate xxxx lives nowhere near the railway – If a train passed by and whistled the house would get up and follow it!” As for Williamson, I seem to remember this was a fairly well-known industrial paint manufacturer.
Stephen Ford
03/05/12 – 14:09
I fear I may have mentioned this before but when we lived in Brislington, Bristol, our neighbour worked for Bristol Commercial Works and around 1957/8 brought home a “spare” 5 gallon drum of silver chassis paint which he then applied to the stonework of his house. It is still clearly visible to this day although I doubt the owners have quite worked out why their house has a fair amount of silvery flakes in the natural stone facings!
Richard Leaman
04/05/12 – 07:30
An NBC paint shop foreman once told me that all ‘leftovers’ of paint in tins used to be mixed together, this produced a sort of muddy plum colour which was used to paint under stairs, wheelarches, inside luggage boots etc. When the NBC issued it’s corporate identity diktat, it was ordered that a grey colour must be purchased and used for those areas (and indeed wheel centres) After that, all leftovers were thrown away. So much for the economies of a national organisation!
Chris Barker
04/05/12 – 14:41
No surprise there, Chris B!
Chris Hebbron
05/05/12 – 16:44
Williamsons are still in business from their Ripon Headquarters. They have supplied various colours of British Railways paint for projects underway at the Vintage Railway Carriages Trust Museum at Ingrow on the Worth Valley Railway. The quality of the paint is excellent – it is a pleasure to work with.
Ian Wild
05/05/12 – 16:46
You are right Stephen, T & R Williamson did, and still does, manufacture specialist paints and varnishes for the transport and industrial sectors. They are based up here in North Yorkshire, in the historic city of Ripon. Williamson’s were well known in the bus and railway world for their coach enamels and varnishes, which had a reputation for quality and durability. They have since kept pace with the modern demand for two-pack paint applications and the like, and the firm is well over two hundred years old. The original Williamson’s building greets visitors and travellers as they approach the city from the south on the A61.
Brendan Smith
08/02/13 – 06:15
Hi I remember this bus as I used to drive it from Riply to Nottingham Mount Street on routes b1 b2 c6 f1 f5 in fact it was a pain to drive very heavy steering but fond memory’s
United Automobile Services 1962 Bristol Lodekka FS6B ECW H33/27R
This photo was taken in the middle of July 1966 and is the Scarborough North Bay “Corner Cafe” terminus of several routes. This photo apart from being a nearly decent shot of a “Short Lodekka” is a flash back to when an English seaside resort had every thing going for it, doesnâ’t it look busy. I do like the Ford Anglia on the roundabout. In the mornings on the way to our chalet (No 99) I used to buy a pound of pea pods from the fruit and veg shop at the other side of the road from this bus stop and boy did they taste good, nice and sweet, and in the evening on the way back to the our B&B I would have a waffle with cream and raspberry jam from the waffle shop around the corner from this view, those were the days. (Sorry about the over long sentence but got carried away in nostalgia).
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The Bristol FS in the picture is one of a small batch of five delivered in February and March 1962 for use on Scarborough town services only. The FS was a very rare beast in United colours – there were only seven in the entire fleet of around 1,200 buses. The Scarborough vehicles were also unusual – in an age of power-operated jacknife doors and front entrances – in having open rear platforms. I believe an agreement with Scarborough Town Council ensured the buses never strayed from the resort right up until their withdrawal some 14 years later. I also believe the vehicles operated mainly in the summer season and were garaged for half the year, so they must have had fairly low mileages. For this reason, it’s a shame one never made it to preservation. I understand they all disappeared at the end of the 1976 summer season although one example may have stayed on as a driver-trainer until as late as 1978.
If anyone has any more information about these buses, or any more pictures, I would be very interested!!!
Dorsetcol
I remember the other two Bristol Lodekka FS6Bs L55/56 both these had rear doors from new I think, they operated out of Darlington on the Stockton 21 or Hartlepool 24 service. The Bishop Auckland route was the preserve of the first Bristol Lodekka LD6Bs L1-5. L56 went to West Yorkshire in exchange for a front entrance model which united was by then operating.
Paul Fraser
When West Yorkshire and United did their swap the ex United bus took the FSFs number in the West Yorkshire fleet DX82. I may be wrong but I think West Yorkshire were the only BTSC fleet to end up with a wholly rear entrance double deck fleet until the advent of the VR in 1969.
Chris Hough
From when I first glimpsed West Yorkshire’s FSF6B DX82 in Bingley as a child, it always remained one of my favourite buses in the fleet. I had never seen a front-entrance double-decker before, so this was something special. Imagine the dismay when WY exchanged it for an ‘ordinary’ FS6B in 1967! Interestingly, the FSF lost its ‘T’ style destination layout on transfer to United for one of their side by side destination/route number display. Unusually, the ex-United FS retained its full three-aperture display after overhaul by West Yorkshire, rather than being converted to ‘T’ type layout. In later years the FS had the intermediate part of its destination display overpainted red. Such a quick fix seemed very un-West Yorkshirelike at the time! Apart from West Yorkshire, I seem to recall that Red & White was the only other BTC/THC company to operate solely rear-entrance Lodekkas. However, whereas West Yorkshire became so once their solitary FSF had been exchanged, Red & White had only rear entrance Lodekkas from the outset, including a batch of rare 30ft FL Lodekkas.
Brendan Smith
Brendan I remember while on holiday in Bournemouth in the 1960s being very impressed indeed by the small batch of Hants & Dorset 30 foot rear entrance Lodekkas. Just momentarily they at first looked odd but quickly the superb lines began to appeal greatly. If there was any criticism of the standard short Lodekka, and I struggle to think of any, it was they had a slight “chunky” appearance from the side.
Chris Youhill
11/02/11 – 06:54
I remember the Lodekkas in York as the main stay of the York West Yorkshire fleet when I was a kid in the 60s and early 70s.
Jim Plant
07/11/11 – 07:49
I lived on Bradford Road, Riddlesden, when DX82 arrived on the scene in 1960, based in Leeds and operating route 31 to Keighley. Sometimes when I took a trip to Bingley, I would wait for it, having seen it heading into Keighley 20 minutes earlier. I was not impressed with the design, since it provided no more seats than an LD or FS and had cramped accommodation for the conductor. Apparently, Company management thought the same. I was delivering evening papers nearby in 1961 when DX82 was rammed from behind at the Airedale Heifer stop by DX67 on the X67 Bradford-Keighley Limited Stop express. Damage was quite extensive, and two passengers were trapped in the lower deck rear seats, which wouldn’t have happened on any other WY double-decker! I bicycled home to get my camera, but I have no idea what happened to the photo I took. The Company was fined for having defective brakes on DX67.
Martin S
18/12/12 – 07:58
Good website, filled me with nostalgia. Remember when I’d walk the dog in Hartlepool and down at the bus station/depot there was a big sign on the wall, United a National Bus Company. I’d get Explorer tickets, managed as far north as Berwick, south as Bridlington [although it was an East Yorkshire in one direction] and west as Carlisle on United [with the odd Northern thrown in on joint runs].
Kevan Hubbard
18/12/12 – 10:11
The ex United Lodekka 456 LHN, which as mentioned above became DX 82 when it arrived with West Yorkshire, it was for a while after October 1967 allocated to the Otley depot taken over from Samuel Ledgard. Just one of those fascinating coincidences but thereafter it could often be seen on service 34 Leeds – Otley – Ilkley, the frequent hunting ground previously of the “real” DX 82 before it moved North east.
Chris Youhill
22/12/14 – 09:31
Am I right in thinking, what I have read, that the Lodekkas West Yorkshire got were FS code, and West Yorkshire got them they coded them as DX.
Stephen
22/12/14 – 12:31
Stephen, West Yorkshire operated LD and FS-type Lodekkas. The letters were Bristol chassis designations denoting (LD) Lowheight Double-decker and (FS) Flat-floor Standard length chassis. The West Yorkshire code you refer to relates to the alpha-numeric fleetnumbering system used by WY between 1954 and 1971, which used classification letters followed by numbers. For example ‘DB’ indicated Double-deck, Bristol engine; ‘SGL’ Single-deck, Gardner engine, Long chassis; ‘CUG’ Coach, Underfloor Gardner engine etc. Where the ‘DX’ classification came in relates to West Yorkshire taking delivery of Bristol’s second Lodekka prototype in 1950, (chassis number LDX002) – Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co having taken the first one in 1949. West Yorkshire numbered its vehicle 822, but in the 1954 renumbering scheme it became DX1 (Double-deck eXperimental). The next Lodekka to arrive was a pre-production prototype and this became DX2. From then on ‘DX’ became the classification for all future WY Lodekkas. West Yorkshire operated 238 Lodekkas (or should that be 239 if you count the TWO DX82s?), all but three having Bristol engines. The trio that ‘broke ranks’ had Gardner engines, these being DX3/4 and 48. DX3/4 were delivered new in 1954 with 6LW units, whereas DX48 originally entered service in 1956 with a Bristol AVW engine, but was converted to Gardner 6LX power in 1958/59. Interestingly, in 1956 DX3 was fitted experimentally with a Shorrocks-supercharged Gardner 5LW engine, but was converted back to 6LW engine some six months later. Despite their Gardner engines, the trio were not classified as DXG as might have been expected, but remained inobtrusively as simply ‘DX’ bless ’em.
Mansfield District Traction Company Limited 1954 Bristol Lodekka LD6G ECW H33/25R
I always liked the Bristol Lodekka with the original long grille-thought it gave the bus a more purposeful appearance. A chance visit to Mansfield in August 1968 found this example which appeared to be in excellent condition for its age.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
29/06/11 – 13:03
In 1969 several of these early Mansfield Lodekkas moved north to West Riding to enable the ill fated Wulfrunians to be withdrawn They entered service in Mansfield green and were quickly joined by others from Midland General and Lincs. Later some twenty plus almost new FLFs came from Bristol to complete the exercise
Chris Hough
29/06/11 – 14:44
Ah! delight in Mansfield, one of my favourite places. Firstly I agree with Ian about the long grille Lodekka, I’ve always thought the same. Secondly, this is particularly interesting because it was Mansfield District’s first Lodekka, new in 1954, platform doors fitted in 1957. I’ve always tended to think of Mansfield District as a sort of Mansfield Corporation, with its history of tramway operation and lots of high frequency short distance services, a very good example of which was the 102 as shown. In 1964, the Saturday service was; first bus 4.40am then every 10mins until 9am then every 5mins until 6.20pm then every 10mins until 11pm (last) and this wasn’t the only service between Mansfield and Pleasley, a timetable wasn’t really necessary! I find it a little odd that this bus isn’t sporting a full blind display, Mansfield District, Midland General and Notts and Derby were normally very fastidious about such things and their inspectors would ‘have a word’ with the conductor if the blinds weren’t displayed perfectly! The correct display in the via box for the 102 would have been MANSFIELD CENTRE, CHESTERFIELD ROAD, PLEASLEY (some journeys carried on to New Houghton) As Chris H rightly says, some of these vehicles were transferred to West Riding as Wulfrunian replacements and were apparently considered to be amongst the better ones so transferred, not surprising considering MDT/MGO’s excellent maintenance standards. Also unusual is that this vehicle carries no adverts of any sort and I think looks much better for it!
Chris Barker
30/06/11 – 05:29
I too much preferred the long radiator and the traditional Bristol shape of it to the later version, which always gave me the annoying impression of having been in a lower end collision and being amateurishly repaired by “chopping off the damaged bit and putting in a new straight lower shape.” I also have an aversion, on all buses, to front square number plates with two rows of three characters – the normal long number plate with all characters in one line looks far tidier at the front and, in many cases, even at the back also.
Chris Youhill
30/06/11 – 05:35
This vehicle’s sister, RAL 976, did some sightseeing work here in Halifax, Nova Scotia in the early seventies, alongside an ex London RT, and at the time made a fine sight in its green livery, I think it had been with West Riding before export to Canada. It moved on years ago, to destination unknown, and I suppose it presumably could still exist, but more than likely has succumbed to the scrapman’s hammer by now.
Dave Careless
30/06/11 – 16:07
I am not at all surprised to observe the superb condition which the Mansfield Lodekka demonstrates! Ignoring any design preferences of individual enthusiasts, I struggle to define any ECW bodied vehicle as being “worn”. Most would seem to be capable of completing a 40 year life cycle. Undoubtedly the finest exponents of bus building which ever existed, the quality and innovation of which was, in my humble opinion, totally unmatched. It is to be greatly regretted that this wonderful company was allowed to disintegrate! ECW bodies never failed to exude total quality, their obsolescence being defined simply in terms of “fashion”. I have no “axe to grind”, and enjoy, as an enthusiast, other products than those from Lowestoft, but wonder if former professionals from within the industry are able to destroy this “illusion” of mine?
John Whitaker
01/07/11 – 05:19
Although I cannot fault the general impression of these vehicles, I was never that keen on the ‘hump’ below the driver’s cab, giving to me, at least, the impression that it had had a front-end shunt and was yet to be repaired! AS Chris B says, the absence of adverts greatly enhances its looks. Were that they’d all been like this!
Chris Hebbron
25/07/11 – 21:01
The Photo of RAL 974 is not standing on the 102 Rank and as a driver for MDT I am suggesting that the vehicle will be driven round to Queen Street to duplicate the service 102 bus to Pleasley hence the via blind is left empty.
John Hellewell
I have put this comment on exact as I got it, I did not get the next to last word but had a good laugh when the penny dropped well done Mr A Non
15/08/11 – 13:01
old5oo thank you 44 sinse i drove her the fleet numbers500to 532 all back rsenders niceone
A Non
16/09/14 – 07:44
I used to be a driver for Mansfield District from 1968 and my father did fifty years for Mansfield it takes me back. I still am in the bus industry I’m a supervisor for West Coast Motors on the west coast of Scotland it was a good time at MDT. I was at Midland Travel as well.
Colin Steele
16/09/14 – 09:54
“ECW bodies never failed to exude total quality…” Not quite, John. The B51 coach body was an absolute aesthetic and structural abomination, utilising large areas of unsupported glass fibre that simply collapsed in service. All the fittings were flimsy and the luggage boots leaked rainwater and road dirt. It was produced under the directives of the Stokes ‘led’ Leyland empire and so bad was it that it must have hastened the ultimate demise of ECW.
Roger Cox
16/09/14 – 12:08
Yes, but I think that it’s a given that any Stokes era history is a period not to savour and that John was thinking of “real” ECW in the same way that I differentiate between Leyland and British Leyland. You are absolutely right that the B51 was an abomination but its failings revolve around British Leyland trying to slap a body literally designed around a rear engined vehicle (the Bristol RELH) onto mid-engined designs without any thought to structural integrity. [Even the earlier, purer, versions on Leopards for SELNEC/GMT suffered similar problems but they were too embarrassed to mention it at the time.] Sadly, at the same time as the B51, Willowbrook offered its own abomination, the 003. Duple were not much better either and, as we all know, Plaxton eventually joined the slide into mediocrity or worse.
David Oldfield
17/09/14 – 07:13
I seem to recall that United took some Leopards with the plasticky B51 bodies for National Express work. The chassis did not have sufficient fixings to cater for the enormous boots required, worked themselves loose and at least one fell off, strewing luggage all over the motorway.
Chris Hebbron
19/09/14 – 07:03
None at all Chris. It was an unsupported boot. Originally the body was (semi) integral with the RE frame – and thus very rigid and strong. Here began its troubles.
David Oldfield
20/09/14 – 05:57
I wonder who dominated here, David O, engineers or accountants!
Chris Hebbron
20/09/14 – 09:27
No brainer Chris. Got to be accountants. Whenever there’s a choice between experts/professionals and accountants the outcome is chaos – just have a closer look at the accountants. You don’t have to look too far to see who is at fault.
David Oldfield
05/10/15 – 07:07
I’ve finally dug out my photo of RAL 974 taken in Newark in 1961, at which time it was wearing advertisements.
Roger Cox
06/10/15 – 07:11
Thanks Roger, for that wonderful photo, Mansfield District had several services between Mansfield and Newark but the principal ones were the 208/209 which combined to provide an hourly headway (even on Sundays) between the two towns by slightly different routes. On Saturdays the frequency was doubled up to half hourly for most of the day. Although Newark had a bus station, for some reason all the MDT services at that time terminated at Northgate railway station which can be seen in the background. They did move into the bus station in later years.
Chris Barker
07/10/15 – 06:59
Here is a slightly more modern Mansfield District vehicle – but still in the traditional livery – a Bristol VRT/ECW Series 1, seen in Newark Bus Station about to return to Nottingham via the 209 route in 1971.
John Stringer
07/10/15 – 15:52
Slip of the fingers there John? It says “Mansfield” on the blind! Nottingham was the 215. The fundamental difference between the 208 (via Blidworth, Southwell, Upton – as shown on the Lodekka) and the 209 was that the latter ran via Rolleston and Fiskerton between Newark and Southwell. I fancy it was meant to substitute for the train following closure of the Rolleston Junction – Southwell branch line.
Southern National 1964 Bristol Lodekka FLF6B ECW H38/32F
Stephen Ford asked, “Was Westward Ho! (Southern National) the only one that included an exclamation mark?”
I don’t know the answer to that, but here is a picture of a Bristol Lodekka displaying that very destination.
The bus is an FLF6B with ECW H38/32F body delivered to Southern National as their number 2053 in December 1964. It is seen here in the summer of 1970 carrying the Western National identity following the NBC decision to phase out the Southern National company name.
Would a D registration make it 1966? … and when did the NBC come into being….?
Joe
Thanks for that Joe pressed the wrong key there I think
11/12/11 – 20:05
Joe, the National Bus Company was formed in November 1968, but did not actually come into being until 1st January 1969, when the assets of the state-owned Transport Holding Company (THC) were transferred to it. On 1st March 1968, the British Electric Traction (BET) group’s British bus subsidiaries became wholly owned by the THC, thus becoming fully state-controlled at this point. It’s interesting to note that the THC’s forerunner, the British Transport Commission (BTC) also took over the railway shareholdings of BET’s bus operating subsidiaries in 1948, following nationalisation of the railways. Although BET remained in overall control and in the private sector, some of the BET shares held later by the BTC/THC were quite large. For example it held 50% ordinary share capital in Midland Red, City of Oxford , East Midlands, Hebble, Western Welsh and Yorkshire Woollen District, and nearly as much in East Yorkshire, North Western and Yorkshire Traction. All fascinating stuff as to who owns what, and doubtless no less complex today! Regarding the age of the FLF Joe, if it had been a ‘D-Reg’ model, it would most likely have had only one cream band to its livery, as ECW omitted the upper deck one from 1966. What a handsome beast it is though, and that Westward Ho! destination surely demands to be shouted out loud!
Brendan Smith
12/12/11 – 06:40
And for the first two or three years, it was, to a large extent, pretty much ‘business as usual’ but then the corporate image brigade were brought in and, well you know the rest! However, enough of that, this post reminds me of a journey I once made on a similar vehicle of my local operator Midland General, but with a Gardner engine. I was bound for Nottingham but the FLF failed at Kimberley (a VERY unusual occurrence for MGO!) Because the frequency was good at this point, we only had to wait five minutes or so for the next bus to come along which was another FLF but with a Bristol engine. I could recognise the sound but I knew nothing about the performance or merits of the different engines and I always remember how much faster the Bristol engined one was. A driver told me later that the Bristol was a faster revving engine and although I’d always been a Gardner fan, I had to concede that the Bristol was the livelier performer!
Chris Barker
12/12/11 – 06:41
Prior to the Lodekka/FLF era, the services in the North Devon area were operated by fairly elderly K’s. Many of these had one-piece blinds combining the three digit route number and the “via” display. Towards the end of their lives, the route numbers were changed from the 100 to the 300 series. Rather than buying new (non-standard) blinds, SN simply pasted a permanent 3 inside the glass where it would obscure the 1.
Stephen Ford
13/12/11 – 08:52
The resort of Westward Ho! was named after the book of the same name by Charles Kingsley who also wrote the Water Babies The action of the book took place in the same area of Devon and a group of speculators decided to cash in on the name
Chris Hough
13/12/11 – 08:53
After having some of the clearest and most informative destination displays in the early 1950’s, the BTC/THC companies generally fell from grace in later years and the above photo is a good example. The taped over aperture with minute lettering for ‘Westward Ho!’ is typical of where things ended up. It made the destination very difficult to read at any distance. Crosville was particularly bad with not only a very small ‘slot’ for the destination but they used a very light font as well. The ‘T’ shaped format which some of the group companies used seemed to give a clearer display.
Philip Halstead
13/12/11 – 08:54
Many of us thought it a shame that the various BET and THC liveries vanished in the early seventies. As Chris says, it appeared to be ‘business as usual’ for a while – new owners of businesses generally seem to leave things outwardly unchanged for about two years, before making what is now termed ‘a bold statement’. Some of the simplified liveries and fleet names applied to NBC coaches in the formative years were quite attractive – those adopted by Northern, Ribble and Greenslades spring to mind. When I heard that West Yorkshire Road Car had placed an order for Plaxton-bodied Bristol RELH coaches in the early 1970’s, I visualised them arriving in rich cream, with a deep waistband of maroon and large fleet names a la Ribble. Alas, this was not to be. They were delivered in the new corporate all over white livery with large NATIONAL red and blue lettering, and a very discreet (i.e.: tiny) West Yorkshire fleet name over each front wheel arch. To many of us this signalled that the era of quality and refinement had been replaced by the age of circus wagon-style ‘impact’. Relating to the FLF photo, Western and Southern National lost more than most with the whitewashing of it’s fine Royal Blue fleet.
Brendan Smith
13/12/11 – 11:19
But it wasn’t just the liveries that were third class, it was the quality of the paint itself. The rich, shiny finish of Tilling Green or Red would have been far superior to NBC Leaf Green and Poppy Red (which rapidly faded). [Typed Poopy Red. I think that was a Freudian slip!] The less said about National White the better!!!
David Oldfield
13/12/11 – 12:54
One of the worst companies for poor blind information was Eastern Counties who often showed a route number and the word “Service” which did nothing to help the intending passenger Thec SBG companies were notorious for the extensive use of paper stickers a practice that still exists in the First Edinburgh fleet
Chris Hough
13/12/11 – 12:55
The green wasn’t too bad, but Poppy Red was a pathetic colour, even before it faded! Fortunately, in Gloucester, anyway, it only appeared on the few Cymru Genedlaethol/National Welsh buses from the Forest of Dean/Monmouthshire direction. And they couldn’t even get the Welsh right, either, since the above means National Wales! Being quirky, I quite liked having buses with Welsh on one side, but, my, it caused a stir among the local populace! Never, mind, the two colours didn’t last long and the ill-fated company not that much longer, into bankruptcy.
Chris Hebbron
17/12/11 – 07:41
I agree the NBC corporate colours were a terrible choice. The colours all looked ‘washed out’ and insipid when newly applied and none of them wore well, fading to a matt hue, particularly the poppy red. I thought the light grey wheels looked tacky and the grey/silver fleet numbers were virtually illegible. The National white was passable on the modern coaches of the time such as the Plaxton Panorama or Duple Dominant but looked awful on the more shapely older designs. Not one of the best periods for the industry.
Philip Halstead
17/12/11 – 08:29
Thinking about those NBC colours, it is odd how such a dreadful set was chosen so was the choice down to one individual or group because I remember everybody hating them from the day they appeared? Surely the marketing men must have had some comments from the public which might have had some impact? Why did they stay in use so long? Similarly, the current First Bus white, pink and purple is something that only looks passable on brand new vehicles but soon gets to look shabby and on the remaining old Dennis Darts, now rather battered and careworn, it looks dreadful. Where and why have all of the interesting, vibrant and carefully chosen liveries gone…it cannot be cost just a lack of corporate interest or understanding that image is a very important part of building a successful Company.
Richard Leaman
17/12/11 – 16:24
Well I’ve heard it said that when you are a public company which is quoted on the London Stock Exchange, then the market expects a ‘corporate image’ to be applied, although the Go Ahead group seems to disprove this. Perhaps it’s simply a matter of cost reduction and expediency with good measures of misguidance and indifference also! Regarding the NBC colours, I remember that when the first white coaches appeared, the ones which had glass panels at the rear incorporating the registration and fleet name had these altered to display N A T I O N A L in alternate red and blue letters. Apparently, this had to be quickly altered because it raised objections from the Police as only they are allowed to display illuminated blue signage on the rear of vehicles in darkness.
Chris Barker
17/12/11 – 16:25
When it was first set up, NBC tended to allow companies to follow their traditional paths. Then, in 1972, Freddie Wood was appointed Chairman, and from that point began the fixation with grandiose self importance as befitted “The Biggest Bus Company In The World”. Thereafter, uniformity, standardisation and direction from the centre became the established order. Not only did the liveries descend to a nadir of mediocrity, but the standard font adopted for the group was unparalleled in its clumsy ugliness. Now, with the dominant groups of today, we are back to much the same thing, with over tight constraints on budgets (particularly in the matter of maintenance) and minimal delegation of initiative to the local management. And as for some of the liveries……….
Roger Cox
18/12/11 – 07:59
…..and it’s all the swooping lines up, down and across the bodywork which look so out of place on what is essentially an oblong box with straight lines. Full marks to those few independents who have liveries which, although of varied hue, still have the dignity of style of the above vehicle and eschew purples and pinks!
Chris Hebbron
19/12/11 – 06:15
…..Epsom Coaches, the other Richmond, the Delaine – to name but three.
David Oldfield
27/01/12 – 06:25
I wholehearted agree with the adverse comments regarding the NBC liveries which replaced so many attractive colour schemes developed over many years which were instantly recognised by passengers and enthusiasts alike, it seemed to me to be corporate vandalism. I once asked a junior NBC manager why they chose to paint the coaches white he replied that it was a colour no one else was using at the time, when I asked had it not occurred to anyone that there was a good reason for that, maybe it was because other people realised that it showed dirt very badly and faded to a dull grey all to quickly, to which I didn’t get a proper answer.
Diesel Dave
25/02/12 – 07:18
Enjoying the various posts on the subject of NBC liveries. Perhaps the most ignominious change was in the North East, where the glorious rich ruby red of Northern General was repainted in awful pale, fading poppy pink! What was the name of the NGT red paint, anyone able to tell me? It really seemed redder to me when I was a kid! Even worse, now – I’m surrounded by FirstBarbie!
Pwhisto
25/03/12 – 09:03
I heartily agree with the adverse comments about the poppy red and the peculiar green colour but my understanding is that they were a response to a Ministry circular of 10/71 which basically said that there were too many accidents at night caused by people running into buses painted in dark colours so buses should be painted in lighter colours. I recall that this was based on research in Scandinavia which showed that lighter coloured vehicles had less accidents and the Ministry also encouraged UK car owners to buy lighter coloured vehicles at much the same time.
Peter Cook
23/02/13 – 13:30
Whilst I agree with the posts that the NBC corporate colours could have been better it is noticeable that at bus rallies there is a growing number of vehicles appearing in NBC livery – including some that pre-date the formation of the NBC and could carry earlier company liveries. I cant help thinking that this shows that NBC corporate livery is actually liked by many – it was certainly better by far than the disgusting liveries of some of todays group, particularly First and Stagecoach. In answer to the writer who asked about the old Northern colour – this was officially know as BET Dark Red and was one of several colours specified by the BET Group for use within the BET companies – although of course many BET group companies used their own livery that did not incorporate a group standard colour. BET Dark Red was common to Northern General, East Midland, South Wales, City of Oxford and several smaller companies. It should be noted that although being a standard colour within BET the shade did vary slightly between companies due to different paint manufacturers. In the early 1970’s I was involved in collecting many samples from all around the country and its very interesting to see just what a colour looked like even where a supposed ‘standard’ existed – I have in my possession several different shades of Tilling Green for example. For a real mystery how about the so called ‘Ribble Red’ used for a few months by the new Alder Valley company prior to NBC Poppy Red – the colour is NOTHING like true Ribble Motor Services red !!. I’ve recently resprayed an EFE Bristol FLF in this colour which was matched from the original sample in my possession – it does look good.
DorsetBus
23/02/13 – 18:04
Can we see a photo of it, then, please, Dorsetbus?
Chris Hebbron
26/02/13 – 12:32
I wonder if the preservation of buses in non-authentic NBC liveries indicates the age of the preservationists concerned? I suspect that nostalgia grips us all in connection with a particular period of our lives. For me, the bus scene was from about age 3 (1952) to 15 (1964) and from there on it was downhill all the way! (Now I am a grumpy old man who can remember how much better it was then). But in 40-50 years those who are now in the 3-15 age range may well remember purple and pink Barbie Lockheads, or blue red and orange Souter Stagecoaches [or even, perish the thought, washed-out green and white Arriva Departures] with an equally warm and wistful glow.
Stephen Ford
26/02/13 – 13:32
Just as an aside to the colour scheme debate, does anyone agree that the Stagecoach hybrid double decker green scheme is probably the strongest and most appealing of the corporate identities around at the moment?
Phil Blinkhorn
26/02/13 – 13:33
As a grumpy old man born in 1952, I agree with you Stephen. My golden age is 1947 (Regent III/PD2) to 1969 (end of RegentV/PD3/FLF). There have been bright spots (both Leyland – the AN68 version of the Atlantean and the Olympian are worthy classics) in later times, but not many. As a coach man, the heavy Reliances, REs and later Leopards, as well as modern Tigers as well. The old liveries were aesthetically far better than modern and I prefer original to later. Even Sheffield had two alternative liveries and the Roes moved from to another with repaints under different General Managers. Authentic liveries to the vehicle are therefore correct – if not acceptable. [I think RTs and RMs in National Leaf Green are HORRIBLE!
David Oldfield
26/02/13 – 15:27
I know that there are still many on this forum who buy into the bad press of Stagecoach – most of which was press fabrication or exaggeration. [If you don’t believe me, consult OFFICIAL history, and I don’t mean just Stagecoach archives.] Their new corporate livery is fairly restrained but things like Gold and the “Green” liveries are lessons in restraint. Mind you, I think I would still put Go-Ahead ahead!
David Oldfield
26/02/13 – 17:25
I want to respond to two points in this thread. Firstly not everyone born in 1952 is grumpy, I’m actually quite nice [at times]. Secondly choice and memories of colour depends where you grew up. In Taunton it was green WN/SN buses and green/two tone greens of various WR diesel hydraulic locomotives plus green DMUs and a reminder “to eat your greens” which ultimately leads to that famous bus photographer’s quote – the other side is always greener.
Ken Jones
27/02/13 – 05:48
Well Ken. Somebody has to be nice, so it might as well be you. Congratulations. You have the job!
David Oldfield
27/02/13 – 05:49
Colour Schemes, Stephen: the other day I saw an Arriva repaint in cream, with the dark blue skirt but a turquoise (instead of cream) curl behind the door. Are we returning to normality?
Joe
04/04/13 – 06:19
Thank you to the person who asked about seeing a picture of my respray in Alder Valley Dark Red on an EFE FLF. Yes I’ll be only too happy to put a picture up once its finished – I’m now also doing a Bristol RE in the same livery having got the required info together so I’ll add a photo of this as well. Please give me a while though as I’m re-organising my workshop and with two upcoming model railway shows to attend with my layouts it may be later in the summer before I can finish the buses. Then its on to several other repaints such as a City of Gloucester (blue) VRT / Leyland National and RE in NBC style and then the first of the next steps – scratch built West Riding Guy Wulfrunians – more on that project later if anyone is interested.
DorsetBus
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/07/13 – 07:09
Just picked up on this thread with regards to NBC livery. When I first took an interest in buses in the 70s our school buses were Cumberland FLFs which were gradually being turned out in poppy red. At the time they seemed fresh and modern and the old livery seemed dark and past its sell by date. Not sure I would still agree though! Towards the end of the decade I went on a tour of the Leyland National factory. Apart from a pair of buses for McGill at Barrhead it seemed to be a sea of poppy red and leaf green. However, the shades of these so-called standard colours varied significantly from operator to operator. When I asked about this I was advised that each operator specified a different mix. The other NBC shade that I was very familiar with at that time was the yellow used by Northern on vehicles in the Tyne and Wear area. This was a shade of cadmium yellow as used by TWPTE (the British Standard was called Goldcup) and it worked much better than poppy red in an urban environment. What I don’t understand is why EFE keep churning out models in this livery but of a shade that is considerably paler and therefore very insipid. It is too light to even be excused as colour scaling!
Mike Morton
17/07/13 – 09:09
In response to Phil Blinkhorn’s ‘aside’ on this subject I agree the Stagecoach hybrid green livery is by far the best I have seen on a double decker for many years and is closely matched by the current Newport Buses livery on their single deck Scanias now operating the Park and Ride service in Cardiff (no doubt much to the ire of that City’s transport dept). As a further aside, even the temptation of free Wi-Fi on Stagecoach hybrid operated route 50 in Manchester wasn’t sufficient to prevent me from route testing the new Metroline trams from East Didsbury to the Media City.
Orla Nutting
18/07/13 – 07:26
By coincidence, for the first time in around 10 years i was in the Newport and Cardiff areas 3 weeks ago and totally agree with Orla’s comments.
