Booth and Fisher operated a selection of stage and works services from their depot at Halfway on the South Eastern outskirts of Sheffield.
Whilst their staple stock for many years were Bedford OBs, they also bought AEC and Leyland single deckers new and amassed quite a collection of Albion Nimbus as well. Relatively unusual second hand purchases were two of these Bristol SC4LK from Eastern National in the late 60s. This one was Eastern National 446, the other ex 451 had the splendid registration 9575F. I suppose a common theme of Bedford OB/Albion Nimbus/Bristol SC was “lightweight” but then they did operate in the flatter areas across towards Worksop. 612 JPU is seen outside their depot in either 1967 or 1968 in company with other members of the fleet.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
08/06/11 – 09:57
Very nice indeed to see a smart but totally unpretentious livery and a very clean and tidy looking depot. I never came into contact with Booth and Fisher, but they appear to have been an operator with the right priorities – too many are just the opposite, employing “spin” with nothing behind it – especially nowadays.
Chris Youhill
09/06/11 – 08:35
Strictly speaking, Booth and Fisher were a Derbyshire operator. Their depot is round the corner from the Halfway Supertram terminus and came inside the Sheffield boundary when the city expanded in 1967. The photograph must have been taken very shortly after this event. The trunk B & F route (Sheffield to Halfway via Coal Aston and Eckington) became SYPTE 253, briefly operated by “Aston” after deregulation. They were, in turn bought out by Stagecoach (then East Midland at Chesterfield) who run this route to this day as part of their new, expanded, Sheffield network. Stagecoach. of course, now operate out of the former Yorkshire Terrier depot in Holbrook – just up the road from the B & F depot. The B & F depot passed to SYPTE when they bought out Booth and Fisher and only recently TM Travel (now part of the same group as Trent Barton) moved into this depot – by now abandoned by First Group – from their nearby Stavely HQ. In latter years, B & F built up a large fleet of AEC service buses (and DPs) and Ford coaches. The last to be bought were a sizeable number of 6MU4R Reliances with Grant specification Panorama Elite III Express bodies – all of which passed to SYPTE. The featured SC4LK would have fitted in with the fleet at the time, though. It was sometimes known as the Bristol SB – fulfilling that role for Tilling Fleets – and even had propriety Bedford axles and other components. SCs were built in such small numbers that minimal expense was the order of the day for R&D.
David Oldfield
09/06/11 – 08:36
If I remember rightly they also had an ex Guy single deck demonstrator with the reg no GUY 2
Roger Broughton
09/06/11 – 08:36
Two of Booth and Fishers more unusual AECs were a pair of Park Royal bodied Monocoaches bought in 1955 These were fitted with a lower profile body than was the norm to pass under the many low bridges in the area One of the pair WRA12 is preserved at the South Yorkshire Transport Museum in Rotherham
Chris Hough
09/06/11 – 08:38
Like you Chris, I never came into contact with this well known operator, but vividly remember the name from the fleet news in Buses Illustrated as a teenager – Booth & Fisher, Halfway – as it always raised a smile. As you say, the livery is indeed smart and unpretentious, and all the better for it in the eyes of many. I’ve never quite understood the trend to dress modern buses up as circus wagons in order to attract motorists out of their vehicles. Most cars are single, or two-tone in colour, as manufacturers wish to convey a ‘perceived quality’ image. How many people would be attracted to a family car with a fancy colour scheme and vinyls covering the windows so only the driver could see out? Amazing how such established concerns such as East Yorkshire and Delaine’s (to name two) manage to retain a dignified traditional livery in a modern style. Ah! Quality!
Brendan Smith
09/06/11 – 08:40
Well Chris Y, Booth and Fisher are long gone but their depot survives and is operational! Their fleet strength was around forty vehicles and when they sold out to South Yorkshire PTE, the garage was used by SYPTE for some time before being deemed surplus to requirements. Today, it houses the fleet of TM Travel, a Wellglade (Trent Barton) subsidiary who have operations in Sheffield and North Derbyshire with around 100 vehicles.
Chris Barker
10/06/11 – 09:49
Roger mentions the ex GUY demonstrator Guy 3 This bus was exhibited at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show In 1957 it was acquired by Ledgards as part of the takeover of Kitchen of Pudsey It ran for Ledgards until they were taken over by West Yorkshire RCC in 1967
Chris Hough
10/06/11 – 09:55
In 1973 B&F bought some 12 year old Reliance service buses from Maidstone and District, and these passed to the PTE in 1976 when they were already 15 years old. You might think that SYPTE would have sent them off to Barnsley for scrap, but they kept them until 1980 when they were resold (as part of a job lot which included a Seddon Pennine IV-236 “midibus”) to Silver Star of Upper Llandwrog (Gwynnedd). Repainted into Silver Star’s attractive two-tone blue and cream livery they gave good service for a few more years on the company’s stage services from Caernarfon to Rhosgadfan and Cesarea, suggesting that they had been excellently maintained by both M&D and B&F/SYPTE. Booth & Fisher were indeed a classic independent!
Neville Mercer
13/06/11 – 07:55
I have a record of three ex Maidstone Reliances with Booth and Fisher (but there may have been more). 336 NKT acquired 7/73 334 NKT acquired 8/73 340 NKT acquired 6/74 all with Weymann DP40F bodies. I can’t be certain now about the accuracy of the acquisition dates, they may be the dates on which I first saw them.
Ian Wild
13/06/11 – 10:48
Check out this link for a comprehensive fleet list of Booth and Fisher. You missed 332 NKT, Ian, see fleet list. Bought 1975 with the last three 6MU4R, the last ever purchases before selling out to SYPTE. It had slipped past me that the last two were Duple bodied.
David Oldfield
12/01/12 – 09:05
I am looking for people who used to work for Booth & Fisher and knew my husband Ian Fretwell. I am going to give him a surprise party next year for his 65th. So I am trying to find as many of his old mates as I can, if anyone knew him please get in touch with me through this website. Or if anyone has a better idea on how to find ex Booth & Fisher employees please let me know.
Wendy Fretwell
28/04/12 – 07:48
Between 1958 & 1965 I attended Westfield Comp. As I lived in Frecheville I had a school bus. Normally Frecheville, Birley and Base Green pupils were transported by Sharpes of Beighton. Over the years they had SBs augmented later by SC4LKs and LWL6Bs ex Lincs Road Car. When the coaches were off doing coach work then one or more buses would be borrowed from Booth & Fisher. These were always from the large selection of OBs and OWBs. I doubt any-one had a more varied OB fleet than Boothies. Bodies included Allsop, Mulliner, Beadle, Barnaby, Roe, Woodhall-Nicholson and Duple. We never knew what would turn up, but could be sure of the bus having character!!
Les Dickinson
18/05/18 – 06:50
Does anyone know how large the fleet was around 1970, they had an impressive garage which could hold most if not all of the fleet under cover.
Jim
23/05/18 – 06:41
Jim, from 1970 the fleet tended to hover around 40. According to “South Yorkshire’s Transport” (Scott Hellewell, Venture, 1996) in 1973 44% revenue came from contracts (mainly NCB), 42% from stage carriage (Dronfield local [jt SCT/CCT]], Killamarsh-Dronfield-Sheffield, Beighton-Killamarsh-Worksop), 12% private hire/E&T, 2% garage business. The premises are still in use to today as the depot of Wellglade subsidiary TM Travel.
Philip Rushworth
17/07/18 – 06:39
Can anyone answer this question that has baffled me for years. As you drive past Clowne ponds you reach the crossroads of the Worksop to Chesterfield road, driving straight over for about 1/2 mile use to be a lane on the left that led to either 1 or 2 possible railway houses, in the yard was parked about 6 buses red I think, this was in the 70s and 80s,who was this firm, Kirkby Andrews were based in Harthill at that time but this wasn’t actually in the village, anyone know.
Jim
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/06/20 – 07:07
I was born and brought up in Halfway, my father was a mechanic at Booth and Fisher. Shortly before the two AEC Monocoaches appeared they had a white Sentinel demonstrator on the Sheffield service for a while. It was the first “flat fronted” bus seen around here. Mid entrance if I remember correctly.
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1957 Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
Before researching the facts about the Bristol SC for this caption, I had somehow presumed that Crosville would have been the largest customer for the type. In fact I was surprised to find that they were only the third largest, having bought a total of 79. 323 were built altogether between 1954 and 1961, being supplied to nine BTC operators. Lincolnshire Road Car had the most with an amazing 113, and Eastern Counties was in second place having bought 88. One of the latter’s examples is shown here preparing to depart the former Drummer Street Bus Station in Cambridge on 11th July 1970. LC540 (VVF 540) was an SC4LK with E.C.W. B35F body, new in 1957 and withdrawn in 1971.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
06/10/13 – 08:10
Memories of childhood visits to Skeggie, Ingoldmills and Cleethorpes. I think they were pretty little rural buses – but the puny 4 cylinder engines did nothing for me.
David Oldfield
06/10/13 – 11:35
Geographically, United must have been one of the biggest of the Tilling group companies, and I imagine the fleet went well into four figures. Several rural depots would only have two or three vehicles, but I don’t ever remember seeing one of this type in the Newcastle area. But that’s not to say they didn’t have any, can anyone enlighten us?
Ronnie Hoye
06/10/13 – 14:31
As David says, the SC’s were bonny looking little buses, but their looks betrayed the reality ! Despite serving many and widespread rural areas United sensibly stayed well clear of the model – imagine an SC with a full load of happy holidaymakers climbing Lythe Bank out of Sandsend. They wouldn’t have been so happy for long, nor been able to hold much of a conversation !
John Stringer
06/10/13 – 17:44
Another trip to the best served destination in East Anglia, the mythical town of SERVICE!
Nigel Turner
06/10/13 – 18:01
I recall trying one of Lincolnshire Road Car’s SC4LKs on the town service during my time working in Goole between 1966 and 1969. It is a long time ago now but I remember thinking they did not bear comparison with the “proper” buses I had become used to in Sheffield!
Stan Zapiec
06/10/13 – 18:23
“Service” may well have been the best served destination in East Anglia but “Duplicate” was equally well served in Crosville’s bailiwick during the 1950s – and often without a route number! Whilst on the subject of “helpful” destinations. Can anyone enlighten me on the difference between “Reserved”, “Special” and “Private”, all three of which appeared together on the blinds of many North West municipality vehicles. I can see reasons for each but a vehicle reserved for a special trip for a private party would probably cause some head scratching for the crew as to which blind to set!
Phil Blinkhorn
06/10/13 – 18:24
I don’t think I’ve ever before seen a picture of one of these buses in red and cream, and they appear even prettier when dressed thus. This is no reflection of course on their many sisters who seemed to prefer green frocks.
Chris Youhill
07/10/13 – 08:25
I have many happy memories of rides on SC4LK’s, mostly with Crosville, but also Cumberland, Vaggs of Knockin Heath and Silver Star of Caernarfon. They were incredibly characterful, with enjoyable sounds and at times a lively performance, although they struggled on hills. The only down side was the lack of forward vision, with partitions and handrails round the forward entrance. United didn’t have any SC’s, but if they had it is unlikely that they would have been used to climb Lythe Bank the SC4LK was a “niche model” used on minor, lightly loaded rural routes, usually on narrow lanes. The SC4LK was reputed to do 20 – 25 mpg in service. This is probably the main reason they were so popular among the North Wales independent operators.
Don McKeown
07/10/13 – 08:26
Apart from the 88 which went to Eastern Counties, only 15 SCs were built for “red” operators. So just under a third of the total built were red. Three Eastern Counties SCs are preserved, but the other 17 known survivors are all green.
Geoff Kerr
07/10/13 – 09:32
Thanks Geoff, I’ve never actually travelled on one of these buses and would like to do so sometime – maybe I’ll come across one at a rally, and red or green wouldn’t matter for a “test ride.”
Chris Youhill
07/10/13 – 13:58
…..but at least they were lighter, and therefore better, than the other Eastern Counties specials; 4LW powered Ls, let alone the LS4LW!
David Oldfield
07/10/13 – 13:59
Don’t think I ever rode on one. Of course, the SC was the only Bristol type never to have been operated by Bristol Tramways/Omnibus!
Geoff Kerr
07/10/13 – 14:00
They were quite adequate for many parts of Lincolnshire, where gradients are unknown, and spot-heights on old Ordnance Survey maps only occasionally rose to the dizzy height of 20 feet above sea level! Lincolnshire RCC had a network of rather infrequent routes serving these fenlands, where, no doubt, they served adequately and economically. However I remember encountering one on a Winter Sunday evening about 1958, on route 3 from Cleethorpes to Lincoln. This service crossed the ridge of the Lincolnshire wolds, and in the region of Binbrook where there were gradients as steep as 1 in 6. The almost full SC4LK made very heavy weather of it – walking pace, and a deafening scream in first gear.
Stephen Ford
07/10/13 – 14:01
The best served ‘place’ these days is surely “SORRY – NOT IN SERVICE”. A lady passenger once complaining to me about the lack of service said she was going to move there, as all the buses seemed to go to it.
Stephen Howarth
07/10/13 – 17:42
Was it the SC that was known as the Tilling Bedford? The niche in the market and engine output were similar to the SB but, more to the point, the axles were supplied by Bedford.
David Oldfield
07/10/13 – 17:44
The bus in this photo should be showing “WATERBEACH” for service 150, from Drummer St., it travelled along Newmarket Rd., and via Clayhithe. I used to ride home on these vehicles from school at Soham to Ely service 116, and only nine years later I was driving them. They were OK in the fens, but I didn’t like them as they were noisy and rattled a lot, plus having to twist round in one’s seat to issue tickets. The gear positions were different as well and it was a real disappointment to get one allocated for a duty, usually as a replacement bus after a breakdown.
Norman Long
08/10/13 – 07:44
The figures in the caption are interesting; 323 built of which a total of 280 were purchased by the three mentioned companies, only leaving 43 for the rest! In the 1960s my sister lived in various locations in the Barmouth area and I’m fairly sure I will have had one or two trips on these. From recollection the services north of Barmouth were in the hands of firstly Bristol Ks and later a Lodekka (for many years DLB 911) but an SC could sometimes be found on the S34 to Dolgellau.
Dave Towers
09/10/13 – 08:25
Ever plagued by if-only-osis, I can’t help wishing that Gardner had been able to offer a 4LK with an extra half inch on the bores, ie 4.25″ instead of 3.75″, which would have boosted the capacity from 3.8 to nearly 4.9 litres. The extra torque would have improved acceleration and hill-climbing enormously, and with the engine running at lower revs for much of the time things would have been quieter too. The SC4LK’s excellent fuel consumption probably wouldn’t have suffered either. Even more exciting: there’s a YouTube of a turbo-charged 4LK (definitely NOT a Gardner option) in some vehicle or other. Considering the difficulty of fitting an off-the-peg turbocharger to any engine not designed to take one, it would be interesting to hear how this owner’s engine fares over the long term. All that aside, an “official” 4LKTC would have transformed the Bristol SC. A question to Norman Long, with his SC driving experience: Was the steering as nice as on heavyweight Bristols, or did it all feel a bit Bedfordish?
Ian Thompson
09/10/13 – 17:41
Reply to Ian… I seem to remember that SC’s, which we all referred to as LC’s, were not at all heavy to drive, certainly not when compared with MW’s (to us LM’s). I have driven a few Bedford Coaches (again, to us CB’s), and I think they were heavier. I didn’t like the thinness of the steering wheels on the early Bedfords (same as the TK lorry) and much preferred a nice fat wheel that one can haul round on a slow corner much more comfortably, especially if there is no power steering fitted. Another thing about the SC’s was that they were very draughty in the winter and you really would need an overcoat!!!
Norman Long
11/10/13 – 06:59
Here are two more photos of Eastern Counties Bristol SC4LKs. TVF 533 (ECOC LC533) is seen in Cambridge, Drummer Street Bus Station on 26 August 1959 on yet another timetabled journey to the intensely bussed destination of “Service”. It is, in fact, on one of the rural routes out towards Ely. This bus was delivered to the operator in January 1957.
6559 AH (LC 559), dating from September 1959, is pictured (if my recollections are correct) near RAF Watton in August 1960. Remarkably, it is displaying its correct destination ‘Norwich’. Much of the old Watton airfield has now been obliterated by new housing development.
Tillingbourne had three SCs in 1971, two of which (TVF 537 and 6560 AH) began life with ECOC, whilst the third (790 EFM) came from Crosville. As other contributors have pointed out, the David Brown gearbox had a curious selector sequence. R/1/2&3 were in the logical positions popularised by the AEC Reliance, with R&1 protected by a detente spring from accidental engagement. Sadly, this spring became very weak over time, and one had to watch out not to pull away in reverse rather than second gear. From third gear, the stick had to be manoeuvred in an inverted ‘U’ fashion back again to engage fourth, and fifth lay immediately forward of fourth. The Tillingbourne SCs were often used on the hilly Guildford – Peaslake service which included a long climb up the scarp face of the North Downs from Shere to Newlands Corner, and, in the opposite direction, the lengthy drag up the dip slope from Merrow to Newlands Corner. This topography was very different from the flat lands of East Anglia and Lincolnshire, though the Crosville examples would probably have met some hills in their lives. The 3.8 litre Gardner 4LK developed 57 bhp at 2100 rpm, and it certainly spent much of its life at those revs in the SC, with deleterious effects upon one’s hearing. Later production 4LKs were rated at 60 bhp, though I cannot believe that this would have made any material difference. The gaps between the gears meant that the engine had to be taken to high revs to change up, but, on the rare occasions when fifth could be engaged (downhill or with a following wind on the flat) this little bus could fly. The 4LK certainly had to work hard in the SC, but its reputation for reliability was always exemplary. I believe that only the axles for the SC were sourced from Bedford. As far as I can now recall, the steering was entirely positive in action.
Roger Cox
11/10/13 – 16:05
By the time I started working for E.C.O.C. in 1970, the Bristol SC’s were on their last legs, and we were enjoying the comparative luxury of driving RLE’s etc.. although a town duty was almost always a Bristol LKH or LKD/LFS; the North Arbury route (130) was allocated the more powerful 6cyl FLF’s with more seats available. The LKH’s were withdrawn around 1971 I think…such a long time ago! A very nice photo of TVF 533 leaving Drummer Street, Cambridge. It’s correct destination should read— 120 Gt Eversden, travelling through Grantchester and Barton which is to the south west of the city.
Norman Long
12/10/13 – 07:52
Thanks for your correction about route 120, Norman. I was working from memory (a decidedly risky procedure at my time of life) and did not check my recollections with Paul Carter’s comprehensive volume “Cambridge 2”.
Roger Cox
13/10/13 – 08:01
The suggestion made by Ian Thompson of a 4LK with the increased 4¼ bore of the LW is, in fact, more than a pipedream. Latil in France were Gardner agents, and they did make such an engine, which proved to be powerful and reliable. Quite what became of the project later is lost in the mists of time, but one can imagine the response of the somewhat megalomaniac Hugh Gardner towards an engine that he could not claim as his own entire creation.
Roger Cox
13/10/13 – 08:02
Can “Cambridge 2” still be obtained Roger?…and is it a book about Cambridge in general, or about the city buses…If so, I would very much like to own a copy.
Norman Long
13/10/13 – 09:56
Norman, There are two books on this subject by Paul Carter. ‘Cambridge 1’ covers the period up to around 1950, and ‘Cambridge 2’ from that time up to deregulation. They are published by Venture Publications of 128 Pike’s Lane, Glossop, Derbyshire SK13 8EH (tel. 01457 861508) who should be able to help you find copies. This publisher does not have a web page. Paul Carter has also written a comprehensive history of Premier Travel.
Venture Publications may not have a website, but the associated MDS Books at the same address has a very extensive one at www.mdsbooks.co.uk Presently both Venture’s ‘Cambridge 1’ and ‘Cambridge 2’ are on special offer at £8 each.
John Stringer
13/10/13 – 12:08
The Cambridge 2 book is currently available as a clearance item at reduced price in the Ian Allan bookshop in Manchester, or at least it was on Friday.
David Beilby
13/10/13 – 16:37
Thank you all very much…I have now ordered a copy of Cambridge 2, as it covers the time I worked for Eastern Counties,…very much looking forward to it’s arrival.
Norman Long
15/10/13 – 07:10
Norman: many thanks for your comments on the steering, and I agree all the way about steering wheels and controls in general: a decently-equipped cab inspires confidence. I’ve never driven an SC or an SU, but the very look of the controls on both suggests that what lies beneath is also solidly made. At Warminster yesterday (Sun 13 Oct) I thoroughly enjoyed a ride on 270 KTA, a lively ex-Western National coach-seated SUL4A, driven with great verve and understanding, but that little engine makes no secret of the hard work it has to do. Congratulations and thanks, by the way, to everyone responsible for the Warminster event, especially on such a soggy day. Roger: I was so interested to hear from you that my fictitious bored-out 4LK had actually been tried that I found a “moteurs Latil” site that lists (almost) all the engines fitted to Latil timber tractors. It seems that the company was a great user of the 4LW (as Unipower was for similar work in Britain) and later also of the 6LW. I couldn’t find the doctored 4LK in question, but I did discover a tractor model H12 of 1949 with a 9.3-litre engine of 114mm (4.488″) bore and 6″ stroke, which must surely have been a modified 6LW—otherwise why the imperial-dimensioned stroke? They also did a model M14 between 1949 and 1955, which had a PETROL version of the 4LW! I realise that I’m way off the bus route, but I greatly enjoyed Chris Y’s Onibury/Stokesay diversion and all those other fascinating spin-offs that have appeared on OBP, just as the background in old photos is often no less interesting than the subject.
Ian Thompson
16/10/13 – 06:47
Ian, the reference to the “big bore 4LK” appears in the book ‘Gardner’ by Graham Edge. This book is now out of print, but I understand that it is to be reprinted by Old Pond Publishing to whom Graham Edge has sold his publishing business. Incidentally, Graham Edge (aka Gingerfold) is a contributor to a discussion forum on Gardner engines, mainly lorry orientated, that runs to no less than 52 pages. www.trucknetuk.com/phpBB/ The differing views of contributors become heated to the point of vitriolic personal abuse in places, but some facts do emerge. For example, the well known external oiliness of Gardners lay with Hugh Gardner’s aversion to the use of gaskets on many external mating surfaces. When rebuilt by operators with jointing compound, much of the problem was resolved. (I wouldn’t recommend trawling through the whole 52 pages in one go; the thing gets very, very repetitive.)
Roger Cox
16/10/13 – 06:48
Ian, with regard to Roger’s comments, the French Latil and Bernard concerns built Gardner engines under licence, paying royalties to Gardner in the process. Both vehicle builders increased the bore size (and in some cases the rpm) of the Gardners in pursuit of more power, and Latil carried out this modification on ‘le 4LK’ as well as ‘les 4LW et 6LW’ engines. This could explain the 114mm (4.488″) bore and 9.3 litres capacity you mentioned, which I presume would have been a Latil modification of the 6LW design. What the top brass at Patricroft thought of this can only be imagined, but no doubt ‘Mr Hugh’ may well have thrown his hands up in the air, spun around three times and locked himself in the nearest cupboard.
Brendan Smith
16/10/13 – 12:02
Thanks for the information about Gardner Roger. I have always had the utmost respect for Gardner products, but must admit they did, as you say, have an external oiliness about them in certain areas. The castings were of excellent quality, but many of us couldn’t understand why joints/gaskets were fitted to some components and not others. Sumps for example did not have gaskets, and tended to be one of the areas prone to oiliness. At West Yorkshire, engineering staff used jointing compounds which usually did the trick. In the main we used Good Year gasket shellac (which was a rich brown colour and smelled pleasantly sweet) or ‘Hylomar’ jointing compound (apparently formulated for Rolls-Royce. This was dark blue and didn’t smell as nice!) Quite why Gardner did not fit even simple cardboard sump joints in the first place is a good question, but I’m sure Hugh Gardner would have given an equally good answer…. They were still fine engines though and no mistake.
Brendan Smith
10/04/14 – 07:25
I remember the SC’S well as a few for Eastern Counties ran around the Yarmouth area during the 60’s and one in particular LC553 a resident at Yarmouth Depot for a number of years.They operated to my knowledge the 6A to Martham, with a few journeys to Hickling, Stalham and Thurne (village no longer served at all by any Company). Also the 19A to Belton, Haddiscoe and Loddon and probably other lightly loaded routes. Only managed to catch one once. Felt sorry for the driver who had to twist round in his seat every stop to collect fares. One example preserved by the Eastern Transport Collection near Norwich.
Richard
26/05/14 – 17:31
ECOC also operated a small number of 33str coach versions of the LC (LSC). In 1968 I bought WAH 875 (LSC 875) from Victoria Coaches, S’end for use in the Bickers of Coddenham fleet. It gave several years of good service. Ipswich Transport Society used it for the last day of Bradford trolleys. Flat out from Ipswich up the A1 overnight – filled up in Bradford with 7 gals! Axles were Austin / BMC, not Bedford.
Eric Mouser
22/03/18 – 06:39
I well remember the SC4LK operating for a while when I went up to Cambridge as my girlfriend at the time was at Girton College and if I felt lazy or drank too much the 129 route proved useful in getting back to my digs in central Cambridge, I used to love these vehicles and eventually made a model of the bus from an Anbrico white metal kit which I still have in my model bus collection! Oh those really were the days!
David Kerr
24/03/18 – 08:33
A reminder that Cumberland also had some SC buses for use on lightly loaded country services. Taken in 1970 I think the location is Carlisle – I know I was about to board 202 for a scenic ride to somewhere but I no longer have any maps for the area.
Ken Newton
13/12/18 – 06:18
Tillingbourne of Chilworth bought this former Eastern Counties SC4LK of 1959, 6560 AH, former fleet number LC 560, in February 1971 and it is seen here ascending the bottom of Guildford High Street on Saturday 29 May 1971 en route to Warren Road. I drove this bus several times myself over the taxing route across the North Downs (at high decibels) to Peaslake until its disposal to Sykes (dealer) at Barnsley after May 1972. There is no further record of it being used as a psv, and by February 1974 it appears to have been sold to another dealer, Carlton, for scrap.
Roger Cox
14/12/18 – 06:16
Roger; I can’t remember any buses climbing the High St other than the short length up as far as Quarry St before turning right towards Shalford. But that wouldn’t lead towards Warren Rd. I suspect that this has just turned right out of Farnham Rd bus station and will then turn right again before going round the loop to Bridge St- Onslow St and North St, in order to get to the top of the town.
John Lomas
14/12/18 – 09:17
John, yes, you are right. The Old Town Bridge is behind the bus in the right hand top corner. I was (totally unaccountably – my wife comes from Guildford) thinking of the Farley Green route that that I often worked on Saturdays; this did follow High Street/Quarry Street on the way to Shalford. The Warren Road service lasted only a few months longer after this picture was taken as it was withdrawn on 16 October 1971.
Roger Cox
23/09/19 – 05:56
I attach a link to a page I created, with a hope to get one dearly named Elise transported from one end of Ireland to other… as a temporary living space. It has been converted inside. She does not drive anymore but it all kitted out. I did not get any support unfortunately… mostly people do not seem to care for these types of campaigns… oh well. I have not given up. She needs a low loader to do the 400KM journey. I need to give the potential driver the tonnage. Can anyone help with that? She is a 1957 model, Bristol SC reg no. VVF 551 fleet no. LC551, LC is where she got her nickname from ELSIE. Be grateful for advise on the weight. I will keep putting the pennies in the savings pot. The attached link:- is here
Tanya Bryan
26/09/19 – 05:47
I don’t know the answer but I suggest that you contact Patrick Burnside who can definitely answer. His e-mail address can be obtained from his web site www.easterncountiesomnibusco.com
Nigel Turner
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
02/11/19 – 05:50
In response to Tanya Brian’s request for the weight, I can give an indication of the weight as built because the SC was designed as a lightweight vehicle and clocked in at just under 4 tons – that’s British Imperial tons by the way; not metric tonnes. Of course, that may not be Elsie’s current weight as, looking at the picture on the website in the link there looks to be a lot of stuff in there which wasn’t part of the original bus. The lengths they went to in order to save every last ounce was quite incredible. Instead of the usual pressed steel channels shaped to clear the rear axle, on the SC the main chassis members are simply two lengths of straight channel which I think is aluminium. Most bus floors are longitudinal floorboards on transverse joists. On the SC there are no joists and the boards are fitted across the chassis members. In addition, the boards are 5/8″ instead of ECW’s usual 7/8″. The seat cushions are an inch thinner than normal service bus seats. Restoring ONV 425 in recent years, I wondered who was apparently damaging the side of the roof. It turned out that another way they saved weight was in the thickness of the aluminium used to sheet the vehicle up. When a ladder was rested against it it produced quite sizeable dents!
I have attached a picture of ONV 425 taken in May this year in Usk, having just driven from Winkleigh (Devon), not I hasten to add, on the motorway.
Peter Cook
11/11/19 – 07:04
Without going to the SC4LK’s lengths in the quest for lightness, I wish the buses and especially coaches of today could shed a ton or two. I do accept that today’s disappointing fuel consumption is due largely to traffic congestion, the need for right-boot-down driving to make up lost time and the use of automatic transmissions, but vehicle unladen weight must also play a part. Of course, the lighter the vehicle itself gets while still carrying the same human tonnage, the cleverer the suspension needs to be to deal with the difference between fully-laden and empty, but I’m sure that cunning technology can brush away that little problem.
Ian Thompson
17/11/19 – 08:49
Ian Having ridden on most Wright products technology does not yet seem to have found a way to eliminate rattles caused by weight saving
Roger Burdett
18/11/19 – 05:43
Roger, when I started my driver training at NGT’s Percy Main Depot in January 1967, the oldest buses still in service were the 1954 H32/26R Weymann Orion bodied G5LW GUY Arab III’s. They were withdrawn later that year. Mechanically, apart from only having a G5LW, they were hard to fault, but far too many corners had been cut to save weight, and the build quality of the bodies was terrible, they were known as rattle traps. To be fair, the later Orion bodies on the 1958 Leyland PD3’s was superb, but as I said, these were terrible. For my money, the best buses we ever had were the Alexander ‘A’ type CRG6LX Daimler Fleetlines, they had it all as far as I’m concerned. I left P/M in 1975, and went to Armstrong Galley, the coaching division of T&W PTE, and only on rare occasions did I ever drive a bus. In 1982, I left buses altogether, and only ride on them as a passenger, but as you say, the rattles seemed to have returned big time.
Ronnie Hoye
23/11/19 – 06:53
Here in Oxford the 4-cylinder Wright double-deckers (whose performance seems perfectly good despite the modest engine size) seem to suffer from sway rather than rattles. The outright winners in the rattle stakes are the awful Mercedes Citaros, with their grabby brakes, inadequate and inconvenient seating and frequent breakdowns. Admittedly the ADL 400Hs do get electrical problems, but in every other way they’re superb—but then they can boast that distinguished Dennis ancestry!
Eastern Counties Omnibus Company 1959 Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
I have the only fully restored red and cream Bristol SC4LK! It is ex Eastern Counties LC 556 (3003 AH). It was new to ECOC in Jan 1959 and served the company for 11 years. Following withdrawal in 1970, it passed via Ben Jordan, the famous Norfolk bus dealer, to Monk Contractors of Warrington as a staff bus. From there it passed to dealer, Martins of Middlewich, who sold the bus on to the Archbishop Sancroft RC High School in Stoke on Trent, where it served as a school bus until 1983. Whilst there, it made the long journey to Brittany in North East France, taking pupils of the school on a field trip. Upon withdrawal by the school, the bus passed to an Oxford bus enthusiast for preservation, but sadly the owner became ill and the bus sat in his garden for a number of years under trees where it slowly adopted an all over green livery! When the enthusiast passed away, his widow sold the bus to Ward Jones, a motor dealer and enthusiast in High Wycombe, together with an Eastern National example (608 JPU) which the Oxford enthusiast also had in his garden. I discovered the bus ‘through the grapevine’ in the summer of 1993 and made an offer for it, which involved salvaging usable parts from the Eastern National one to make the Eastern Counties one complete. The bus was then towed all the way back to her old operating territory and stored on a farm in south Norfolk. Serious preservation then got underway over the next eleven or so years and the restoration was finally completed in Summer 2005. This was my third preservation project, the other two being LM 452 (3014 AH) 1978-84 and LL 711 (KNG 711) 1984-88, both ex Eastern Counties and a 1958 MW5G and a 1950 L5G respectively.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Patrick Burnside
12/03/15 – 16:38
Like Patrick’s other vehicles, this is a superb restoration. It is one of only two SCs that I have ridden on, the other being an Eastern Counties one which was working a crew operated Norwich City service in 1973 at a time of extreme vehicle shortage.
Nigel Turner
12/03/15 – 16:39
Fascinating Patrick, and a creditable restoration. If you have one, could you post a ‘before’ photo?
Chris Hebbron
12/03/15 – 16:40
I used to travel to and from school between Ely and Soham on this type of bus (1960)…maybe even this one, if it ever worked from Ely depot.It would have been nearly new then…Years later, and I found myself driving one or two of them at Cambridge, just before they were withdrawn (1970). They were very noisy…lots of rattles…and that awful gearbox, plus having to turn to the left and issue tickets to passengers boarding behind you. They were referred to by all as LC’s. However, 3003 AH looks really well restored, and the picture brings back happy memories of my time at Hill’s Rd depot, Cambridge.
Norman Long
14/03/15 – 12:54
There is a shot of this bus when it was owned by the Archbishop Sancroft on www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
13/10/15 – 08:48
I only drove an SC (ECOC LC) for a short movement when I was area engineer at ECOC, but the drivers used to tell me that it was the (David Brown off the shelf) gearbox ratios that caused most difficulty with a large ratio jump between 2 and 3 or was it 3 and 4 and hence the need to run the engine to high revs before the up change. Incidentally I saw the prototype SC in service with BT&CC (or was it BOC by then?) – after which they no doubt decided it was not for them. Bristol territory is hilly and I think only one back axle ratio was available for the SC. All Bristol’s Bristol buses had the lowest axle ratio available compared to other operators (In the K, L and MW days it was 6:1 rather than the 5.5:1 – didn’t do much for top speed until the 5th gear appeared on KSWs).
I attach a photo of LC566 – the only one with an all fibreglass body (no panel strapping!) parked at Melton Constable in Autumn 1968 on Service 401 one of the earliest rail-replacement routes that replaced the Gt Yarmouth – Kings Lynn railway.
Geoff Pullin
12/01/17 – 09:10
Responding to Geoff Pullin’s note on the SC, I think the big jump is between 2nd and 3rd. Top speed in 2nd is 15mph, but in 3rd at 15mph the engine struggles. My own reminiscences of the SC as a Bristolian are that I had never even seen one until the opening of the Severn Bridge after which I used to regularly go to such places as the Forest of Dean and Abergavenny where Red & White operated a total of 7. The cab interior is strange, particularly the partition at the rear of the cab and despite seeing them on the road quite a few times in the late 1960’s I don’t think I realised quite what the inside looked like until seeing interior shots on t’internet.
Peter Cook
12/01/17 – 13:56
There was a second fibreglass bodied SC, a “self-coloured” green one for Crosville, 237 SFM, fleet No. SSG 664.
Allan White
13/01/17 – 06:52
Lincolnshire RCC had quite a lot. Fine on the flat lands of South Holland, but contrary to popular opinion, Lincolnshire isn’t ALL flat. I remember travelling on an SC one dark damp Sunday evening about 1959, route 3 from Cleethorpes to Lincoln, and it made heavy weather, very slow and noisy, with lots of 2nd gear, over the Wolds section between Ravendale, Binbrook and Tealby.
Stephen Ford
13/01/17 – 06:53
This is a photograph I took on board Patrick’s SC at the Old Buckenham Rally in August 2015. Patrick is at the wheel. I had never ever ridden on one of the type before.
David Slater
13/01/17 – 09:37
I drove the SC type for Tillingbourne – 2 ex ECOC (TVF 537 & 6560 AH) and 1 ex Crosville (790 EFM) – quite often, usually on the hilly Guildford – Peaslake route that had to surmount the North Downs between Merrow and Shere. The gear positions from the left were: forward for reverse gear, back for first, over and forward again in the central gate for second, back for third, then over to the right and back again in a ‘U’ movement for fourth, and forward from there to engage fifth. One normally started off in 2nd gear, but the detent spring protecting the left hand gate was pretty weak and one had to be careful that reverse wasn’t engaged in error. As I recall, the gap in ratios was between 3rd and 4th, and 5th was a feasible option only on the level and downhill. The SC was an idiosyncratic little machine, and keeping time with it was a challenge, but it was a decent enough little bus and I quite enjoyed driving the type. Yes, it was quite noisy, but nowhere near as raucous as the ear splitting Seddon Pennine IV. Those 3.8 litre 4LK engines were tough little workhorses.
Roger Cox
13/01/17 – 10:06
Lovely period interior picture: I assume that the cream colour is a proper Tilling shade as it looks like that rich homely nicotine colour of fond memory. Notice how it also looks as if the ticket machine is totally unprotected and positioned for a quick exit… and not a camera in sight! Happy days…
Joe
14/01/17 – 07:02
It may be that the ECOC ones had cream ceiling and upper interior sides. The Red & White ones had Rexine on the insides of the window pillars and luggage racks of a colour which might be charitably described as mushroom or uncharitably as sludge. I can only assume the idea was that it would not show cigarette smoke staining as it was pretty much smoke-stain colour in the first place.(I can post a picture to illustrate the colour if anyone is interested). Ceilings were (?broken) white when they started apparently. I remember these colours also as being applied in similar places to the BOC MW saloons of the same period.
Crosville Motor Services 1957 Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
Crosville was one of the main users of the Bristol SC4LK model, with a total of seventy nine examples, of which fifty five were buses and twenty four were coaches, although the latter were soon downgraded to bus status, without being greatly modified. The first batch were new in 1957, numbered SC1 – 16. but in May 1958 they were renumbered SSG 601 – 616. These vehicles were a familiar sight in most of the Company’s Welsh areas, with their small size making them ideal for running along single-track roads. The Gardner 4LK engine resulted in extremely good fuel consumption (over 20mpg) but limited their speed capability. It was often said that they could climb any gradient, but might take all day to do it! After withdrawal, SSG 612 was used as a maintenance vehicle for the Runcorn Busway, numbered G612. This enabled it to be bought for preservation and restored to its present superb condition. In April this year, the bus, now carrying its original number SC12, was used for a Crosville Enthusiasts Club outing, revisiting some of the routes which used to be operated by this type. it is seen here at Cwm Swch, having just left Cwm Penmachno, the terminus of Crosville’s route from Llanrwst and Betws-y-Coed. This route is nowadays covered by Llew Jones using Optare Solos – a very poor comparison, although it can perhaps be said that the Solo is a modern day equivalent of the SC!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
16/06/16 – 05:52
Arguably, United must have covered the largest geographical area of any Tilling/BTH group company. I don’t know how many vehicles or depots they had, but numbers at each varied from a handful up to a hundred or more. Many operating areas were similar to those of Crosville, but so far as I am aware, United avoided this particular Bristol/ECW offering like the plague
Ronnie Hoye
16/06/16 – 05:52
Nice view, Don, and not just of the bus! Thanks for posting. Here’s a silly question. It’s clearly a full-fronted vehicle which, in most circumstances, would be recorded as ‘FB’ or ‘FC’, so what was it about the SC series that it was felt B or C alone would suffice?
Pete Davies
16/06/16 – 09:41
By way of comparison, I attach an image from a slide of a standard Bristol MW6G bus SMG 373 taken in the early 1970s on service M3 seen returning to Llanrwst – the driver kindly stopped to permit the photo. At the time the SC and MW types were the regular vehicles on the Llanrwst country routes – those were the days.
Keith Newton
16/06/16 – 10:18
The Bristol SC series was designed and always built as a full front vehicles, never as a half-cab. Therefore the decision makers in the PSVC decided that a plain B or C would suffice. The same rule is applied to Bedford SB, Ford 570E and Commer Avenger coaches. I don’t think I have ever travelled on an SC4LK. From the descriptions here and elsewhere, I’m glad I didn’t do so in their hey-day, but curiosity today might just make me try one at a running day!
Michael Hampton
16/06/16 – 12:37
The attached photo was taken from the bridge looking to the terminus at Cwm Penmachno again in the early 1970s and again the driver had kindly stopped. The running times in those days were very generous even for an SC and the Llanrwst drivers were always very friendly towards a young English enthusiast riding into deepest Wales. With grateful thanks to them.
Keith Newton
16/06/16 – 13:22
Thank you Michael.
Pete Davies
17/06/16 – 15:55
In answer to Ronnie’s query my 1967 Crosville Company Fleet List shows there were 1,173 buses + coaches plus 15 service vehicles in the fleet in an ’empire’ stretching from Newcastle-under-Lyme in the east to Aberaeron in the west. That’s throughout England and Wales of course, and 32 Depots plus 3 sub-depots (outstations) ranging from 1 vehicle at Barmouth to 123 vehicles at Wrexham. Referring to the Bristol SC4LK I agree with all the comments about them, but nevertheless have a soft spot for them, I suppose because they were such a nostalgic part of my summer holiday bus riding in North Wales. The cacophony of the engine noise and the vibration on a long uphill gradient such as ascending the Crimea Pass could likely induce a nosebleed in those susceptible, and combined with the competing din of twenty-odd housewives chattering in Welsh on a returning market day service from Llanrwst to Blaenau Ffestiniog would ensure your ears not just popping but actually ringing for ages after you hurriedly made your exit in Duffwys Square! That was the R34 service from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llanrwst taking all of 1 hour and 10 minutes. I think the reason why the smaller vehicle was chosen in preference to an MW was that between Betws-y-Coed and Llanrwst, unlike any of the other services linking those towns, it operated down the western side of the Conway Valley, i.e. via Cwmlanerch and then had a tight turn onto the river bridge at Llanrwst. It operated two return journeys from Blaenau Ffestiniog throughout the year, although I should think that it was occasionally suspended in winter when snow afflicted the Crimea Pass! Those two journeys were denoted in the timetable by L, indicating Llanrwst Market and Fair Day. It then helpfully mentioned that Lanrwst M.D. was Tuesda , but would not operate in the week of Fair Day (Wednesday following the first Tuesday of the month) when it would operate on the Wednesday instead! Such operational trivia used to be common in rural area timetables all over Britain. In North Wales other Market Day/Fair Day footnotes were necessary for Denbigh and Ruthin. To digress a little I used to live near Lancaster and the Ribble timetable for service 79/80 between Lancaster and Knott End on Sea had amongst the various codes the footnote: ‘On the occasions when the tide renders the direct route between Conder Green and Glasson Dock impassable, the route will be diverted via Upper Thurnham’. Today, a ‘dyke’ has been constructed making such interesting diversions away from the cold muddy River Lune estuary well and truly a thing of the past. Back to the SC’s. The subject of Dan’s article SSG 612 was perhaps in Dan’s photo of the late 50’s, allocated to Llanrwst. In 1967 it had migrated to Pwllheli, or Porthmadoc outstation, maybe for the Borth-y-Gest /Morfa Bychan service. The other allocations, including the downgraded 33 seater ‘coach-seated versions (CSG’s) were: AN Aberaeron 1 AYH Aberystwyth 4 AMH Amlwch 2 BR Bangor 8 BF Blaenau Ffestiniog 2 CFN Caernarfon 9 CR Chester 3 CWN Corwen 3 DH Denbigh 6 DU Dolgellau 2 HD Holyhead 2 JT Johnstown 5 LL/T Llandudno Town 4 LJN Llandudno Junction 5 LT Llanrwst 6 MYH Machynlleth 3 OY Oswestry 2 PI Pwllheli 5 Incl. Porthmadog O/S) RL 5 WXM 2 (Total = 79)
SSG 612 and sister SSG 613 were eventually preserved,even appearing on Crosville Wales heritage services in the mid 90’s. Perhaps someone else will be able to continue that story.
David J. Smith
25/06/16 – 06:32
Thanks David for the garage allocation. My sister lived in Wales for much of the 1960s, in various locations between Barmouth and Harlech and I had a vague memory of seeing a Bristol SC in Barmouth. The allocation list shows a couple at Dolgellau, so no doubt I will have seen them –and ridden on them – on the S34 service between the two towns. I reckon all enthusiasts will have some regret about disposing of items many years ago which they wish they had kept. Mine would have to be a complete set of Crosville timetables, five volumes I think, from the late 1960s. I would give my right arm to still have them. There must be dozens and dozens of small Welsh villages which no longer have a bus service and it would be fascinating to read them.
Dave Towers
27/06/16 – 06:40
To conclude the small gallery of Crosville Bristol SC buses I am attaching two more photos of SC12. This was used in the 1990s along with SC13 on various vintage services by Crosville. It is seen on the service based at Bangor which linked the town with both Beaumaris on Anglesey and Penrhyn Castle which is owned/managed by the National Trust. As far as I am aware this was the first time a bus service had entered the grounds of the castle.
Keith Newton
02/10/16 – 06:00
SC12 was renovated at Crosville Motor Services Sealand road central repairs in Chester in the early 80s. I was an apprentice who along with others worked on the bus. As it was being completed Enigmas Film Productions hired the bus for a Chanel Four film directed by David Putnam. The film was called “Experience Preferred but not Essential†(look it up on you tube and you will see the film). My dad Eric Manley was a driving instructor at the time at Crosville and was the driver in the film. The film was based in Phylleli North Wales in the 60s however it was filmed in Douglass Isle of Mann as in the 80s Phylleli was not as it was in the 60s.
Kevin Manley
24/01/22 – 06:34
Buses Jan 1991
I restored this bus in the 70s and sold it back to Crossville Wales. It was a strip back and total restoration. I have pics of every stage of this restoration which answers many of the queries I read in the feedback so far. I am happy to send these to anyone who can use them. I heard that SC 12 had been badly damaged in a front end collision? So she may have been scrapped? I last saw SC13 at The Llandudno rally in about 2007, now privately owned.
R & R Coaches t/a Beeline 1956 Bristol Bristol SC4LK ECW B35F
The lightweight SC (small capacity) vehicle emerged in 1954 and was the Bristol/ECW offering for BTC lightly trafficked rural bus routes. Every opportunity was taken to save weight. The chassis longitudinal members were simple straight lengths of channel lacking intermediate transverse sections, and the body was sheeted in fairly thin aluminium. The axles were reputedly sourced from Bedford, and the five speed gearbox, with its idiosyncratic selector positioning between third and fourth, came from the David Brown company. Three prototypes were constructed, the first, 724 APU, fitted with the Gardner 4LK engine and classified SCX4G, was delivered to Eastern National in November 1954. This was followed by 725 APU in December 1954, but this had the Perkins P6 engine and was called the SCX6P. This bus later received a 4LK engine in 1958. The third prototype, another 4LK powered SCX4G, went to Eastern Counties in December 1955, and as all subsequent SCs were powered by the 4LK engine, the classification thereafter was amended to the familiar SC4LK. Production, including the prototypes, totalled 323, Lincolnshire being the greatest user with 113 examples, followed by Eastern Counties with 88, Crosville 79, and Eastern National 22. The other BTC companies took the SC in penny numbers only – United Counties 6, Cumberland and Thames Valley 5 each, Red & White 4, and United Welsh just 1. The little 3.8 litre 57 bhp 4LK had to work hard in the SC, a duty not helped by the curious ratios of the David Brown gearbox. The gap between second and third has been noted by a number of commentators, but, in my experience of driving the type, it was the gap between third and fourth that truly restricted progress. This necessitated the revving of the engine to its absolute maximum before attempting to change up, a move that frequently proved abortive so that a change back down again was immediately required. Thus the engine spent much of its time at its 2100 maximum revolutions with a deleterious effect upon the eardrums of driver and passengers alike. The gearbox offered a fifth gear that was only of feasible use downhill or on the level with a following wind. The SC remained in production until 1961, during which time Dennis had been collaborating with Bristol in respect of the Loline, and one wonders if the Guildford company could not have offered the Falcon gearbox, available in four and five speed versions, for the SC instead of the impractical David Brown unit. The picture shows former Lincolnshire Road Car No. 2414 NFW 655, delivered new in May 1956 and sold on in 1969. I photographed it in service in July 1970 with R & R Coaches, Bishopstrowe, Wilts, trading as Beeline. The location is New Canal, Salisbury, formerly a section of the long defunct Salisbury and Southampton Canal which was closed in 1806. This bus was withdrawn by Beeline in May 1972 and its subsequent fate is not recorded. R & R Coaches still exists but it would seem that the company was reconstituted in 1971. I acknowledge the detailed Bristol Vehicles Website as the source of much information:- //www.bristolsu.co.uk
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
08/02/21 – 06:41
I once rode on a Lincolnshire SC4LK from Goole town centre to my lodgings in the town and my abiding memory is that I was glad it was only a short ride on such a noisy and uncomfortable bus.
Stan Zapiec
08/02/21 – 11:57
I’m a dinosaur, Stan, and still think that there is no substitute for cc. Many BTC/THC companies thought the same and, where possible, used an LS5 or MW5 in preference. SC and SU only made sense in the flat lands of Lincolnshire and the Fens – and yet Crosville, United and Western National used them in the Hill Country. There is sometimes no accounting.
David Oldfield
09/02/21 – 06:08
I think it must have been about 1958/59 that I travelled on an SC4LK on Lincolnshire’s route 3 from Cleethorpes to Lincoln on a cold wet January Sunday evening. (No train service on Sundays). The wolds section Ravendale, Binbrook, Kirmond-le-Mire, Tealby is seriously hilly – not your typical Lincolnshire flat lands. The whole trip was a growling/ screaming assault on the ears – about an hour and 40 minutes of it if I remember rightly.
Stephen Ford
09/02/21 – 13:36
We hated these on Eastern Counties. They were very noisy, and rattled everywhere. Plus, to take fares the driver had to swivel right round to the left, and work through the central gap behind. As luck would have it, I joined the Cambridge depot in 1970, and they were soon to be withdrawn.
Norman Long
10/02/21 – 06:19
I’m struggling to visualise how the chassis would work without any intermediate transverse sections, does that mean there were some but only at the front and rear? Presumably the bodywork played some part in keeping the whole thing together but I don’t think these were semi-integral were they? How would the completed chassis be sent from Bristol to Lowestoft? Would some temporary spacers be inserted?
Chris Barker
14/02/21 – 07:04
Chris, I cannot now recall where I first learned of the simple layout of the SC chassis, but the body structure definitely contributed to the integrity of the entire vehicle. My long held belief was endorsed by Peter Cook’s comment of 02/11/2019 under Eastern Counties – Bristol SC4LK – VVF 540 – 540, and Peter owns one of the type.
Roger Cox
28/03/21 – 07:57
Further to David Oldfield (8/2/21) Western National’s SC lookalikes were actually rebuilt and rebodied L6Bs, which should explain their hill-climbing ability. United didn’t have any SCs, but they did have five SUs.
David Call
29/11/21 – 06:27
Interesting to read the comments here, and mine are similar. We moved to the county of Merioneth in 1971 when I was 9, and our Crosville service was Dolgellau – Machynlleth and return three times a day and none on Sundays. Usual fayre was MW5s which as a young boy I liked. SC4LKs were occasional visitors and I assume one was kept as a standby bus at Machynlleth. The journey to school was on the Aberllefenni – Tywyn school bus which was contracted to Crosville until probably 1975. Out of season we were treated to a coach, mostly CMG 523 as I remember, but come the summer we had whatever was available at Machynlleth garage – an MW5 or an SC4.The latter were awful particularly when climbing. The return from school involved a hill climb between Abergynolwyn and Talyllyn, then the main climb from the Cader Idris junction up to Upper Corris. Noisy, rattley and generally lacking in stamina are three attributes, but the informative piece explains it all. I have recently bought an Anbrico whitemetal model and intend to repaint it in Crosville livery as a childhood reminder.
United Automobile Services 1955 Bristol LD6B ECW H33/25R
Not many of these deep radiator versions made shame really I quite liked them. This photo was taken at Scarborough on the round about by the railway station.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The original deep radiator versions of the Lodekka were indeed attractive machines but after the first 18 months or so of production (around late 1955) the first body modifications began with the shortening of the radiator cowl (compare with the picture of United FS6B L108 here). The deep radiator cowls were known as ‘long apron’ types.
United Automobile Services 1964 Bristol Lodekka FLF6B ECW H38/32F
I am not sure if the Lodekka actually had a version number i.e. I, II, III as the Regent III, V for example if any body knows please let me know. I did like these front entrance Lodekkas, the three things I remember most is the low step to get on, how brightly light the interior was at night but best of all was the whine of the engine, being used to AEC and Leylands at home the Bristol or Gardner engines were very different.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The best United engine noises of all were the final batch of Bristol FLF Lodekkas delivered between January and May 1968. These F-registered machines were fitted with Gardner engines and were the first non-Bristol engined buses in the fleet. A Bristol-type whine was accompanied by a very powerful growl as I remember – very impressive. Also, this final batch were even brighter inside than normal. The interior panelling was finished in all-over cream formica as opposed to the normal dark green which made them feel light, spacious and very modern. They were lovely vehicles to ride on!
Incidentally, you may like to know that I am the author of a book on United’s buses entitled “One And Two Halves To The Clock”, which is my own story of growing up as a lad in the 1960s in Redcar, North Yorkshire – a seaside town deep in United territory!
Colin Plucknett
Although Lodekkas did not have version numbers as such (ie: Series I, II, III etc), they were split into two broad types – namely LD and F-Series models. The original LD (Low-height Double-decker) series had a slightly sunken lower deck gangway, with the pairs of seats either side of it in effect raised above it. A longer version (LDL) made its debut in 1957, but only a handful were built. As the Lodekka developed over the years, a revised model was introduced. Known as the F (Flat floor) Series, this had as the name implied, a flat floor throughout the lower deck. It was available in four variants: FS (Flat floor, Standard/Short chassis); FL (Flat Floor, Long chassis); FSF and FLF (as for FS and FL, but with the second F denoting a forward entrance chassis). Interestingly, the Bristol BVW engine fitted to many a Lodekka from 1958 onwards did have version numbers. As the BVW evolved, engines became known as Series I, II and III, and could be identified by the serial number stamped on the engine plate. BVW1xxx denoted Series I, BVW2xxx were Series II, and BVWs numbered 3xxx/4xxx etc were Series III.
Brendan Smith
There was a final variation to the FLF series: the very impressive 31ft FLF6LX models, with semi-automatic gearboxes, as operated by Eastern National. Several of them started life with coach seating for the X10 Southend-London Victoria service. In their heyday, around 24 of the 40 plus that ENOC had were allocated to the long 151/251 working from Southend to North London (Wood Green): a 2hr 40min one way trip! Also, one or two were regularly featured on the “On the Buses” TV show. As a Conductor, these were wonderful vehicles to work on, especially on the long haul routes. I also believe the Scottish Bus Group had some as well. They’re the only two operators I know that used them. Any others, anyone?
Mike Harper
05/06/11 – 14:28
Eastern National’s FLF coaches certainly were real stunners Mike, and the 31-footers were handsome machines in either bus or coach form. As you rightly say, several of ENOCs Wood Green FLF6LXs featured in ‘On the Buses’ and were to many of us the real stars of the show. (I wonder if Reg Varney and Doris Hare realised just how privileged they were to work alongside such venerable icons!). At least AEV811F and AVW399F took part in the series masquerading as buses of the Luxton & District Traction Company – and wasn’t it a quirk of fate that the ‘AVW’ registration was on a Gardner-powered bus? You are correct in saying that only ENOC and the Scottish Bus Group took delivery of 31-footers – sadly for some reason they didn’t find favour anywhere else. Relating to the semi-automatic FLFs, I was fortunate enough to ride on Leyland 0.600 engined Hants & Dorset example when on holiday with friends in the 1970s. I had not realised the FLF had either feature until it started up and set off. The pronounced gear whine puzzled me, and it was only in later years I found out this was due to extra gearing in the transmission line. On manual gearbox Lodekkas the gearbox was mounted directly behind the engine, with the drive being taken downwards and slightly to the offside by the design of the gearbox. However, as the semi-auto ‘box was of a bulkier nature, this unit was mounted on the offside of the chassis. The drive was taken downwards and to the offside from the back of the flywheel to the gearbox, using a train of gears – hence the unusual whine emitted. It certainly added a certain character!
United Automobile Services 1956 Bristol Lodekka LD6B ECW H33/27RD
Quite a few lists have United fleet numbers starting with a “B” which I presume denotes Bristol. But as one can plainly see in this photo there is no “B” just L13 does anybody know if United changed there fleet numbering system after 1966. This shot was taken July 1966 at Scarborough bus station.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
In answer to your question about United fleet renumbering regarding the excellent photo of the United LD6B: You are quite right – the B did stand for Bristol. Most of the fleet was renumbered from 1st November 1964 when the B was dropped from vehicle classifications. The company decided it was superfluous since the fleet was almost entirely Bristol by then!
Colin Plucknett
What a fine shot of what must surely be the perfect model of LD Lodekka. No Cave-Brown-Cave radiator intakes to spoil the curvaceous lines, the later cab door with straight rather than curved edge to the lower window glass, a three aperture destination box, and the ‘whiskers’ above the radiator grille. Even the front wheels are set at a jaunty angle! Very nice condition for a ten year old bus and a credit to United. (Good old Charlie Bullock will have driven it a few times around Scarborough in his day, no doubt).
Notts and Derby 1964 Bristol Lodekka FLF6G ECW H38/32F
Yet another photo where I can not remember where I was when I took it same as the previous W Gash photo I presume, any clues anybody? I do have quite a few photos of Nottingham City Transport yet to come so probably a club trip down that way. The photo doesn’t show it too well but bus is in a very dark green and cream.
It’s Mount Street bus station in Nottingham. The buildings in the background are part of the old General Hospital. The bus livery is actually Dark Blue and Cream, the same as Midland General.
Patch
Thanks for that its nice to know where I have been. I am in two minds to change the shot to a black and white as it is very bad colour wise if that is supposed to be Blue, it was Ilford film should have stuck to Agfa perhaps.
Peter
My memory is probably faulty but I remember travelling on a light blue regal on Midland General’s E4 route and lighting in Crich village where I was to spend the weekend at the tramway museum.
I think that MG delighted us enthusiasts by the fact that it bucked corporate dictate from Tilling HQ by not having a Tilling red/green livery.
As I recall Midland General had a light blue livery. It had two subsidiary companies Notts & Derby, including the trolley buses that came to Bradford, wore a dark blue livery whilst Mansfield and District wore non-Tilling green. In due course all three fleets assumed NBC leaf green.
Don’t be too worried about the colour on the image. It is still a wonderfully evocative image
Charles
I think this very dark blue was a latter-day variation. The original was not actually “light” blue, but a very nice, almost royal blue. I think it was actually the same for both MGO and NDT. Have a look here//www.busslides.co.uk/search_bus_pictures_east_midlands.php(and scroll down) for a few examples.
Stephen Ford
Memory plays tricks doesn’t it, had I already said that?, but wasn’t the blue featured on the dual purpose vehicles (in reverse livery) a darker shade than the blue used on the service buses? Nice photo by the way, very handsome vehicle
Andrew
Andrew, yes it certainly was – in fact it was so dark as to be almost, or perhaps actually, black – but only in the later years. The classic (bus) livery was, to my mind, “real blue”. It was an honest to goodness full-bodied shade, and I judged all others (harshly!) by it, including the “washed out” blue that Cambus later used, and the ghastly fading “rail blue” that British Rail slopped all over everything in sight.
Stephen Ford
The blue used from pre war was Williamsons Azure Blue and Tilling cream. Earlier the vehicles carried a lighter blue relief. National bus days meant a change from the cream to white and more blue and so this looked a lot darker but all my investigation would suggest that this was indeed the same colour – it’s always a talking point at rallies between myself and other owners of ex MGO vehicles! I have been involved with several preservation projects all being finished in this colour. Hope this clears things up a bit.
Paul D Chambers
Used to use the old Notts & Derbys buses to Ilkeston and Cotmanhay 1969 & 70
Mickey Summers
02/05/12 – 17:19
I too can confirm that MGO and Notts & Derby Traction wore the same livery, at least post-war. I knew it was an Azure blue, was Williamsons Azure blue a reference to the one time general manager? Did he in fact choose the colours? I have mixed feelings of Mount St bus station. The mix of MGO, NDT, Barton and Trent buses was exciting to me as a child, but I also suffered from travel sickness, so by the time we arrived there from Langley Mill I was feeling quite queasy. Returning to the subject of the blue paint, I remember at one time my parents having a bathroom in MGO cream and a bedroom window in MGO blue. These things could happen when you lived near a bus depot.
Brian Yeomans
03/05/12 – 07:56
And when my mother and I moved from Surrey to Southsea, the house was almost battleship grey throughout, inside and out. It wasn’t long before a neighbour told us that the previous occupant worked in Portsmouth Dockyard and the guy was known in the street a Paintbrush Brill! When I got around to demolishing the ancient shed, it had been made from sailors’ packing cases, still bearing their names, ranks and numbers!
Chris Hebbron
03/05/12 – 09:02
I worked for the railway workshops in Derby, and certain senior managers were believed to have made a little freely with, shall we call them, “surplus materials” and “rail blue” colour schemes were not unknown. (Why anyone should have so little taste as to want their house painted that colour I do not know – now MGO blue, that’s a different matter!) Of one such manager I heard the comment that “It’s fortunate xxxx lives nowhere near the railway – If a train passed by and whistled the house would get up and follow it!” As for Williamson, I seem to remember this was a fairly well-known industrial paint manufacturer.
Stephen Ford
03/05/12 – 14:09
I fear I may have mentioned this before but when we lived in Brislington, Bristol, our neighbour worked for Bristol Commercial Works and around 1957/8 brought home a “spare” 5 gallon drum of silver chassis paint which he then applied to the stonework of his house. It is still clearly visible to this day although I doubt the owners have quite worked out why their house has a fair amount of silvery flakes in the natural stone facings!
Richard Leaman
04/05/12 – 07:30
An NBC paint shop foreman once told me that all ‘leftovers’ of paint in tins used to be mixed together, this produced a sort of muddy plum colour which was used to paint under stairs, wheelarches, inside luggage boots etc. When the NBC issued it’s corporate identity diktat, it was ordered that a grey colour must be purchased and used for those areas (and indeed wheel centres) After that, all leftovers were thrown away. So much for the economies of a national organisation!
Chris Barker
04/05/12 – 14:41
No surprise there, Chris B!
Chris Hebbron
05/05/12 – 16:44
Williamsons are still in business from their Ripon Headquarters. They have supplied various colours of British Railways paint for projects underway at the Vintage Railway Carriages Trust Museum at Ingrow on the Worth Valley Railway. The quality of the paint is excellent – it is a pleasure to work with.
Ian Wild
05/05/12 – 16:46
You are right Stephen, T & R Williamson did, and still does, manufacture specialist paints and varnishes for the transport and industrial sectors. They are based up here in North Yorkshire, in the historic city of Ripon. Williamson’s were well known in the bus and railway world for their coach enamels and varnishes, which had a reputation for quality and durability. They have since kept pace with the modern demand for two-pack paint applications and the like, and the firm is well over two hundred years old. The original Williamson’s building greets visitors and travellers as they approach the city from the south on the A61.
Brendan Smith
08/02/13 – 06:15
Hi I remember this bus as I used to drive it from Riply to Nottingham Mount Street on routes b1 b2 c6 f1 f5 in fact it was a pain to drive very heavy steering but fond memory’s
United Automobile Services 1962 Bristol Lodekka FS6B ECW H33/27R
This photo was taken in the middle of July 1966 and is the Scarborough North Bay “Corner Cafe” terminus of several routes. This photo apart from being a nearly decent shot of a “Short Lodekka” is a flash back to when an English seaside resort had every thing going for it, doesnâ’t it look busy. I do like the Ford Anglia on the roundabout. In the mornings on the way to our chalet (No 99) I used to buy a pound of pea pods from the fruit and veg shop at the other side of the road from this bus stop and boy did they taste good, nice and sweet, and in the evening on the way back to the our B&B I would have a waffle with cream and raspberry jam from the waffle shop around the corner from this view, those were the days. (Sorry about the over long sentence but got carried away in nostalgia).
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The Bristol FS in the picture is one of a small batch of five delivered in February and March 1962 for use on Scarborough town services only. The FS was a very rare beast in United colours – there were only seven in the entire fleet of around 1,200 buses. The Scarborough vehicles were also unusual – in an age of power-operated jacknife doors and front entrances – in having open rear platforms. I believe an agreement with Scarborough Town Council ensured the buses never strayed from the resort right up until their withdrawal some 14 years later. I also believe the vehicles operated mainly in the summer season and were garaged for half the year, so they must have had fairly low mileages. For this reason, it’s a shame one never made it to preservation. I understand they all disappeared at the end of the 1976 summer season although one example may have stayed on as a driver-trainer until as late as 1978.
If anyone has any more information about these buses, or any more pictures, I would be very interested!!!
Dorsetcol
I remember the other two Bristol Lodekka FS6Bs L55/56 both these had rear doors from new I think, they operated out of Darlington on the Stockton 21 or Hartlepool 24 service. The Bishop Auckland route was the preserve of the first Bristol Lodekka LD6Bs L1-5. L56 went to West Yorkshire in exchange for a front entrance model which united was by then operating.
Paul Fraser
When West Yorkshire and United did their swap the ex United bus took the FSFs number in the West Yorkshire fleet DX82. I may be wrong but I think West Yorkshire were the only BTSC fleet to end up with a wholly rear entrance double deck fleet until the advent of the VR in 1969.
Chris Hough
From when I first glimpsed West Yorkshire’s FSF6B DX82 in Bingley as a child, it always remained one of my favourite buses in the fleet. I had never seen a front-entrance double-decker before, so this was something special. Imagine the dismay when WY exchanged it for an ‘ordinary’ FS6B in 1967! Interestingly, the FSF lost its ‘T’ style destination layout on transfer to United for one of their side by side destination/route number display. Unusually, the ex-United FS retained its full three-aperture display after overhaul by West Yorkshire, rather than being converted to ‘T’ type layout. In later years the FS had the intermediate part of its destination display overpainted red. Such a quick fix seemed very un-West Yorkshirelike at the time! Apart from West Yorkshire, I seem to recall that Red & White was the only other BTC/THC company to operate solely rear-entrance Lodekkas. However, whereas West Yorkshire became so once their solitary FSF had been exchanged, Red & White had only rear entrance Lodekkas from the outset, including a batch of rare 30ft FL Lodekkas.
Brendan Smith
Brendan I remember while on holiday in Bournemouth in the 1960s being very impressed indeed by the small batch of Hants & Dorset 30 foot rear entrance Lodekkas. Just momentarily they at first looked odd but quickly the superb lines began to appeal greatly. If there was any criticism of the standard short Lodekka, and I struggle to think of any, it was they had a slight “chunky” appearance from the side.
Chris Youhill
11/02/11 – 06:54
I remember the Lodekkas in York as the main stay of the York West Yorkshire fleet when I was a kid in the 60s and early 70s.
Jim Plant
07/11/11 – 07:49
I lived on Bradford Road, Riddlesden, when DX82 arrived on the scene in 1960, based in Leeds and operating route 31 to Keighley. Sometimes when I took a trip to Bingley, I would wait for it, having seen it heading into Keighley 20 minutes earlier. I was not impressed with the design, since it provided no more seats than an LD or FS and had cramped accommodation for the conductor. Apparently, Company management thought the same. I was delivering evening papers nearby in 1961 when DX82 was rammed from behind at the Airedale Heifer stop by DX67 on the X67 Bradford-Keighley Limited Stop express. Damage was quite extensive, and two passengers were trapped in the lower deck rear seats, which wouldn’t have happened on any other WY double-decker! I bicycled home to get my camera, but I have no idea what happened to the photo I took. The Company was fined for having defective brakes on DX67.
Martin S
18/12/12 – 07:58
Good website, filled me with nostalgia. Remember when I’d walk the dog in Hartlepool and down at the bus station/depot there was a big sign on the wall, United a National Bus Company. I’d get Explorer tickets, managed as far north as Berwick, south as Bridlington [although it was an East Yorkshire in one direction] and west as Carlisle on United [with the odd Northern thrown in on joint runs].
Kevan Hubbard
18/12/12 – 10:11
The ex United Lodekka 456 LHN, which as mentioned above became DX 82 when it arrived with West Yorkshire, it was for a while after October 1967 allocated to the Otley depot taken over from Samuel Ledgard. Just one of those fascinating coincidences but thereafter it could often be seen on service 34 Leeds – Otley – Ilkley, the frequent hunting ground previously of the “real” DX 82 before it moved North east.
Chris Youhill
22/12/14 – 09:31
Am I right in thinking, what I have read, that the Lodekkas West Yorkshire got were FS code, and West Yorkshire got them they coded them as DX.
Stephen
22/12/14 – 12:31
Stephen, West Yorkshire operated LD and FS-type Lodekkas. The letters were Bristol chassis designations denoting (LD) Lowheight Double-decker and (FS) Flat-floor Standard length chassis. The West Yorkshire code you refer to relates to the alpha-numeric fleetnumbering system used by WY between 1954 and 1971, which used classification letters followed by numbers. For example ‘DB’ indicated Double-deck, Bristol engine; ‘SGL’ Single-deck, Gardner engine, Long chassis; ‘CUG’ Coach, Underfloor Gardner engine etc. Where the ‘DX’ classification came in relates to West Yorkshire taking delivery of Bristol’s second Lodekka prototype in 1950, (chassis number LDX002) – Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co having taken the first one in 1949. West Yorkshire numbered its vehicle 822, but in the 1954 renumbering scheme it became DX1 (Double-deck eXperimental). The next Lodekka to arrive was a pre-production prototype and this became DX2. From then on ‘DX’ became the classification for all future WY Lodekkas. West Yorkshire operated 238 Lodekkas (or should that be 239 if you count the TWO DX82s?), all but three having Bristol engines. The trio that ‘broke ranks’ had Gardner engines, these being DX3/4 and 48. DX3/4 were delivered new in 1954 with 6LW units, whereas DX48 originally entered service in 1956 with a Bristol AVW engine, but was converted to Gardner 6LX power in 1958/59. Interestingly, in 1956 DX3 was fitted experimentally with a Shorrocks-supercharged Gardner 5LW engine, but was converted back to 6LW engine some six months later. Despite their Gardner engines, the trio were not classified as DXG as might have been expected, but remained inobtrusively as simply ‘DX’ bless ’em.
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
