ECW – Page 3 – Old bus photos

Mansfield District – Bristol Lodekka LD6G – RAL 974 – 500

Copyright Ian Wild

Mansfield District Traction Company Limited
1954
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW H33/25R

I always liked the Bristol Lodekka with the original long grille-thought it gave the bus a more purposeful appearance. A chance visit to Mansfield in August 1968 found this example which appeared to be in excellent condition for its age.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

29/06/11 – 13:03

In 1969 several of these early Mansfield Lodekkas moved north to West Riding to enable the ill fated Wulfrunians to be withdrawn They entered service in Mansfield green and were quickly joined by others from Midland General and Lincs. Later some twenty plus almost new FLFs came from Bristol to complete the exercise

Chris Hough

29/06/11 – 14:44

Ah! delight in Mansfield, one of my favourite places. Firstly I agree with Ian about the long grille Lodekka, I’ve always thought the same. Secondly, this is particularly interesting because it was Mansfield District’s first Lodekka, new in 1954, platform doors fitted in 1957. I’ve always tended to think of Mansfield District as a sort of Mansfield Corporation, with its history of tramway operation and lots of high frequency short distance services, a very good example of which was the 102 as shown. In 1964, the Saturday service was; first bus 4.40am then every 10mins until 9am then every 5mins until 6.20pm then every 10mins until 11pm (last) and this wasn’t the only service between Mansfield and Pleasley, a timetable wasn’t really necessary! I find it a little odd that this bus isn’t sporting a full blind display, Mansfield District, Midland General and Notts and Derby were normally very fastidious about such things and their inspectors would ‘have a word’ with the conductor if the blinds weren’t displayed perfectly! The correct display in the via box for the 102 would have been MANSFIELD CENTRE, CHESTERFIELD ROAD, PLEASLEY (some journeys carried on to New Houghton)
As Chris H rightly says, some of these vehicles were transferred to West Riding as Wulfrunian replacements and were apparently considered to be amongst the better ones so transferred, not surprising considering MDT/MGO’s excellent maintenance standards. Also unusual is that this vehicle carries no adverts of any sort and I think looks much better for it!

Chris Barker

30/06/11 – 05:29

I too much preferred the long radiator and the traditional Bristol shape of it to the later version, which always gave me the annoying impression of having been in a lower end collision and being amateurishly repaired by “chopping off the damaged bit and putting in a new straight lower shape.” I also have an aversion, on all buses, to front square number plates with two rows of three characters – the normal long number plate with all characters in one line looks far tidier at the front and, in many cases, even at the back also.

Chris Youhill

30/06/11 – 05:35

This vehicle’s sister, RAL 976, did some sightseeing work here in Halifax, Nova Scotia in the early seventies, alongside an ex London RT, and at the time made a fine sight in its green livery, I think it had been with West Riding before export to Canada. It moved on years ago, to destination unknown, and I suppose it presumably could still exist, but more than likely has succumbed to the scrapman’s hammer by now.

Dave Careless

30/06/11 – 16:07

I am not at all surprised to observe the superb condition which the Mansfield Lodekka demonstrates! Ignoring any design preferences of individual enthusiasts, I struggle to define any ECW bodied vehicle as being “worn”. Most would seem to be capable of completing a 40 year life cycle.
Undoubtedly the finest exponents of bus building which ever existed, the quality and innovation of which was, in my humble opinion, totally unmatched. It is to be greatly regretted that this wonderful company was allowed to disintegrate!
ECW bodies never failed to exude total quality, their obsolescence being defined simply in terms of “fashion”.
I have no “axe to grind”, and enjoy, as an enthusiast, other products than those from Lowestoft, but wonder if former professionals from within the industry are able to destroy this “illusion” of mine?

John Whitaker

01/07/11 – 05:19

Although I cannot fault the general impression of these vehicles, I was never that keen on the ‘hump’ below the driver’s cab, giving to me, at least, the impression that it had had a front-end shunt and was yet to be repaired!
AS Chris B says, the absence of adverts greatly enhances its looks. Were that they’d all been like this!

Chris Hebbron

25/07/11 – 21:01

The Photo of RAL 974 is not standing on the 102 Rank and as a driver for MDT I am suggesting that the vehicle will be driven round to Queen Street to duplicate the service 102 bus to Pleasley hence the via blind is left empty.

John Hellewell

I have put this comment on exact as I got it, I did not get the next to last word but had a good laugh when the penny dropped well done Mr A Non

15/08/11 – 13:01

old5oo thank you 44 sinse i drove her the fleet numbers500to 532 all back rsenders niceone

A Non

16/09/14 – 07:44

I used to be a driver for Mansfield District from 1968 and my father did fifty years for Mansfield it takes me back. I still am in the bus industry I’m a supervisor for West Coast Motors on the west coast of Scotland it was a good time at MDT. I was at Midland Travel as well.

Colin Steele

16/09/14 – 09:54

“ECW bodies never failed to exude total quality…”
Not quite, John. The B51 coach body was an absolute aesthetic and structural abomination, utilising large areas of unsupported glass fibre that simply collapsed in service. All the fittings were flimsy and the luggage boots leaked rainwater and road dirt. It was produced under the directives of the Stokes ‘led’ Leyland empire and so bad was it that it must have hastened the ultimate demise of ECW.

Roger Cox

16/09/14 – 12:08

Yes, but I think that it’s a given that any Stokes era history is a period not to savour and that John was thinking of “real” ECW in the same way that I differentiate between Leyland and British Leyland. You are absolutely right that the B51 was an abomination but its failings revolve around British Leyland trying to slap a body literally designed around a rear engined vehicle (the Bristol RELH) onto mid-engined designs without any thought to structural integrity. [Even the earlier, purer, versions on Leopards for SELNEC/GMT suffered similar problems but they were too embarrassed to mention it at the time.] Sadly, at the same time as the B51, Willowbrook offered its own abomination, the 003. Duple were not much better either and, as we all know, Plaxton eventually joined the slide into mediocrity or worse.

David Oldfield

17/09/14 – 07:13

I seem to recall that United took some Leopards with the plasticky B51 bodies for National Express work. The chassis did not have sufficient fixings to cater for the enormous boots required, worked themselves loose and at least one fell off, strewing luggage all over the motorway.

Chris Hebbron

19/09/14 – 07:03

None at all Chris. It was an unsupported boot. Originally the body was (semi) integral with the RE frame – and thus very rigid and strong. Here began its troubles.

David Oldfield

20/09/14 – 05:57

I wonder who dominated here, David O, engineers or accountants!

Chris Hebbron

20/09/14 – 09:27

No brainer Chris. Got to be accountants. Whenever there’s a choice between experts/professionals and accountants the outcome is chaos – just have a closer look at the accountants. You don’t have to look too far to see who is at fault.

David Oldfield

05/10/15 – 07:07

I’ve finally dug out my photo of RAL 974 taken in Newark in 1961, at which time it was wearing advertisements.

Roger Cox

06/10/15 – 07:11

Thanks Roger, for that wonderful photo, Mansfield District had several services between Mansfield and Newark but the principal ones were the 208/209 which combined to provide an hourly headway (even on Sundays) between the two towns by slightly different routes. On Saturdays the frequency was doubled up to half hourly for most of the day.
Although Newark had a bus station, for some reason all the MDT services at that time terminated at Northgate railway station which can be seen in the background. They did move into the bus station in later years.

Chris Barker

07/10/15 – 06:59

Here is a slightly more modern Mansfield District vehicle – but still in the traditional livery – a Bristol VRT/ECW Series 1, seen in Newark Bus Station about to return to Nottingham via the 209 route in 1971.

John Stringer

07/10/15 – 15:52

Slip of the fingers there John? It says “Mansfield” on the blind! Nottingham was the 215. The fundamental difference between the 208 (via Blidworth, Southwell, Upton – as shown on the Lodekka) and the 209 was that the latter ran via Rolleston and Fiskerton between Newark and Southwell. I fancy it was meant to substitute for the train following closure of the Rolleston Junction – Southwell branch line.

Stephen Ford

Southern National – Bristol Lodekka – AUO 523B – 2053

Copyright Roger Cox

Southern National
1964
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

Stephen Ford asked, “Was Westward Ho! (Southern National) the only one that included an exclamation mark?”

I don’t know the answer to that, but here is a picture of a Bristol Lodekka displaying that very destination.

The bus is an FLF6B with ECW H38/32F body delivered to Southern National as their number 2053 in December 1964. It is seen here in the summer of 1970 carrying the Western National identity following the NBC decision to phase out the Southern National company name.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

11/12/11 – 11:14

Would a D registration make it 1966? … and when did the NBC come into being….?

Joe

Thanks for that Joe pressed the wrong key there I think

11/12/11 – 20:05

Joe, the National Bus Company was formed in November 1968, but did not actually come into being until 1st January 1969, when the assets of the state-owned Transport Holding Company (THC) were transferred to it. On 1st March 1968, the British Electric Traction (BET) group’s British bus subsidiaries became wholly owned by the THC, thus becoming fully state-controlled at this point. It’s interesting to note that the THC’s forerunner, the British Transport Commission (BTC) also took over the railway shareholdings of BET’s bus operating subsidiaries in 1948, following nationalisation of the railways. Although BET remained in overall control and in the private sector, some of the BET shares held later by the BTC/THC were quite large. For example it held 50% ordinary share capital in Midland Red, City of Oxford , East Midlands, Hebble, Western Welsh and Yorkshire Woollen District, and nearly as much in East Yorkshire, North Western and Yorkshire Traction. All fascinating stuff as to who owns what, and doubtless no less complex today!
Regarding the age of the FLF Joe, if it had been a ‘D-Reg’ model, it would most likely have had only one cream band to its livery, as ECW omitted the upper deck one from 1966. What a handsome beast it is though, and that Westward Ho! destination surely demands to be shouted out loud!

Brendan Smith

12/12/11 – 06:40

And for the first two or three years, it was, to a large extent, pretty much ‘business as usual’ but then the corporate image brigade were brought in and, well you know the rest! However, enough of that, this post reminds me of a journey I once made on a similar vehicle of my local operator Midland General, but with a Gardner engine. I was bound for Nottingham but the FLF failed at Kimberley (a VERY unusual occurrence for MGO!) Because the frequency was good at this point, we only had to wait five minutes or so for the next bus to come along which was another FLF but with a Bristol engine. I could recognise the sound but I knew nothing about the performance or merits of the different engines and I always remember how much faster the Bristol engined one was. A driver told me later that the Bristol was a faster revving engine and although I’d always been a Gardner fan, I had to concede that the Bristol was the livelier performer!

Chris Barker

12/12/11 – 06:41

Prior to the Lodekka/FLF era, the services in the North Devon area were operated by fairly elderly K’s. Many of these had one-piece blinds combining the three digit route number and the “via” display. Towards the end of their lives, the route numbers were changed from the 100 to the 300 series. Rather than buying new (non-standard) blinds, SN simply pasted a permanent 3 inside the glass where it would obscure the 1.

Stephen Ford

13/12/11 – 08:52

The resort of Westward Ho! was named after the book of the same name by Charles Kingsley who also wrote the Water Babies
The action of the book took place in the same area of Devon and a group of speculators decided to cash in on the name

Chris Hough

13/12/11 – 08:53

After having some of the clearest and most informative destination displays in the early 1950’s, the BTC/THC companies generally fell from grace in later years and the above photo is a good example. The taped over aperture with minute lettering for ‘Westward Ho!’ is typical of where things ended up. It made the destination very difficult to read at any distance. Crosville was particularly bad with not only a very small ‘slot’ for the destination but they used a very light font as well. The ‘T’ shaped format which some of the group companies used seemed to give a clearer display.

Philip Halstead

13/12/11 – 08:54

Many of us thought it a shame that the various BET and THC liveries vanished in the early seventies. As Chris says, it appeared to be ‘business as usual’ for a while – new owners of businesses generally seem to leave things outwardly unchanged for about two years, before making what is now termed ‘a bold statement’. Some of the simplified liveries and fleet names applied to NBC coaches in the formative years were quite attractive – those adopted by Northern, Ribble and Greenslades spring to mind. When I heard that West Yorkshire Road Car had placed an order for Plaxton-bodied Bristol RELH coaches in the early 1970’s, I visualised them arriving in rich cream, with a deep waistband of maroon and large fleet names a la Ribble. Alas, this was not to be. They were delivered in the new corporate all over white livery with large NATIONAL red and blue lettering, and a very discreet (i.e.: tiny) West Yorkshire fleet name over each front wheel arch. To many of us this signalled that the era of quality and refinement had been replaced by the age of circus wagon-style ‘impact’. Relating to the FLF photo, Western and Southern National lost more than most with the whitewashing of it’s fine Royal Blue fleet.

Brendan Smith

13/12/11 – 11:19

But it wasn’t just the liveries that were third class, it was the quality of the paint itself. The rich, shiny finish of Tilling Green or Red would have been far superior to NBC Leaf Green and Poppy Red (which rapidly faded). [Typed Poopy Red. I think that was a Freudian slip!] The less said about National White the better!!!

David Oldfield

13/12/11 – 12:54

One of the worst companies for poor blind information was Eastern Counties who often showed a route number and the word “Service” which did nothing to help the intending passenger Thec SBG companies were notorious for the extensive use of paper stickers a practice that still exists in the First Edinburgh fleet

Chris Hough

13/12/11 – 12:55

The green wasn’t too bad, but Poppy Red was a pathetic colour, even before it faded! Fortunately, in Gloucester, anyway, it only appeared on the few Cymru Genedlaethol/National Welsh buses from the Forest of Dean/Monmouthshire direction. And they couldn’t even get the Welsh right, either, since the above means National Wales! Being quirky, I quite liked having buses with Welsh on one side, but, my, it caused a stir among the local populace! Never, mind, the two colours didn’t last long and the ill-fated company not that much longer, into bankruptcy.

Chris Hebbron

17/12/11 – 07:41

I agree the NBC corporate colours were a terrible choice. The colours all looked ‘washed out’ and insipid when newly applied and none of them wore well, fading to a matt hue, particularly the poppy red. I thought the light grey wheels looked tacky and the grey/silver fleet numbers were virtually illegible.
The National white was passable on the modern coaches of the time such as the Plaxton Panorama or Duple Dominant but looked awful on the more shapely older designs. Not one of the best periods for the industry.

Philip Halstead

17/12/11 – 08:29

Thinking about those NBC colours, it is odd how such a dreadful set was chosen so was the choice down to one individual or group because I remember everybody hating them from the day they appeared? Surely the marketing men must have had some comments from the public which might have had some impact? Why did they stay in use so long?
Similarly, the current First Bus white, pink and purple is something that only looks passable on brand new vehicles but soon gets to look shabby and on the remaining old Dennis Darts, now rather battered and careworn, it looks dreadful.
Where and why have all of the interesting, vibrant and carefully chosen liveries gone…it cannot be cost just a lack of corporate interest or understanding that image is a very important part of building a successful Company.

Richard Leaman

17/12/11 – 16:24

Well I’ve heard it said that when you are a public company which is quoted on the London Stock Exchange, then the market expects a ‘corporate image’ to be applied, although the Go Ahead group seems to disprove this. Perhaps it’s simply a matter of cost reduction and expediency with good measures of misguidance and indifference also!
Regarding the NBC colours, I remember that when the first white coaches appeared, the ones which had glass panels at the rear incorporating the registration and fleet name had these altered to display N A T I O N A L in alternate red and blue letters. Apparently, this had to be quickly altered because it raised objections from the Police as only they are allowed to display illuminated blue signage on the rear of vehicles in darkness.

Chris Barker

17/12/11 – 16:25

When it was first set up, NBC tended to allow companies to follow their traditional paths. Then, in 1972, Freddie Wood was appointed Chairman, and from that point began the fixation with grandiose self importance as befitted “The Biggest Bus Company In The World”. Thereafter, uniformity, standardisation and direction from the centre became the established order. Not only did the liveries descend to a nadir of mediocrity, but the standard font adopted for the group was unparalleled in its clumsy ugliness.
Now, with the dominant groups of today, we are back to much the same thing, with over tight constraints on budgets (particularly in the matter of maintenance) and minimal delegation of initiative to the local management. And as for some of the liveries……….

Roger Cox

18/12/11 – 07:59

…..and it’s all the swooping lines up, down and across the bodywork which look so out of place on what is essentially an oblong box with straight lines. Full marks to those few independents who have liveries which, although of varied hue, still have the dignity of style of the above vehicle and eschew purples and pinks!

Chris Hebbron

19/12/11 – 06:15

…..Epsom Coaches, the other Richmond, the Delaine – to name but three.

David Oldfield

27/01/12 – 06:25

I wholehearted agree with the adverse comments regarding the NBC liveries which replaced so many attractive colour schemes developed over many years which were instantly recognised by passengers and enthusiasts alike, it seemed to me to be corporate vandalism. I once asked a junior NBC manager why they chose to paint the coaches white he replied that it was a colour no one else was using at the time, when I asked had it not occurred to anyone that there was a good reason for that, maybe it was because other people realised that it showed dirt very badly and faded to a dull grey all to quickly, to which I didn’t get a proper answer.

Diesel Dave

25/02/12 – 07:18

Enjoying the various posts on the subject of NBC liveries. Perhaps the most ignominious change was in the North East, where the glorious rich ruby red of Northern General was repainted in awful pale, fading poppy pink! What was the name of the NGT red paint, anyone able to tell me? It really seemed redder to me when I was a kid!
Even worse, now â€“ I’m surrounded by FirstBarbie!

Pwhisto

25/03/12 – 09:03

I heartily agree with the adverse comments about the poppy red and the peculiar green colour but my understanding is that they were a response to a Ministry circular of 10/71 which basically said that there were too many accidents at night caused by people running into buses painted in dark colours so buses should be painted in lighter colours. I recall that this was based on research in Scandinavia which showed that lighter coloured vehicles had less accidents and the Ministry also encouraged UK car owners to buy lighter coloured vehicles at much the same time.

Peter Cook

23/02/13 – 13:30

Whilst I agree with the posts that the NBC corporate colours could have been better it is noticeable that at bus rallies there is a growing number of vehicles appearing in NBC livery – including some that pre-date the formation of the NBC and could carry earlier company liveries. I cant help thinking that this shows that NBC corporate livery is actually liked by many – it was certainly better by far than the disgusting liveries of some of todays group, particularly First and Stagecoach. In answer to the writer who asked about the old Northern colour – this was officially know as BET Dark Red and was one of several colours specified by the BET Group for use within the BET companies – although of course many BET group companies used their own livery that did not incorporate a group standard colour. BET Dark Red was common to Northern General, East Midland, South Wales, City of Oxford and several smaller companies. It should be noted that although being a standard colour within BET the shade did vary slightly between companies due to different paint manufacturers.
In the early 1970’s I was involved in collecting many samples from all around the country and its very interesting to see just what a colour looked like even where a supposed ‘standard’ existed – I have in my possession several different shades of Tilling Green for example.
For a real mystery how about the so called ‘Ribble Red’ used for a few months by the new Alder Valley company prior to NBC Poppy Red – the colour is NOTHING like true Ribble Motor Services red !!. I’ve recently resprayed an EFE Bristol FLF in this colour which was matched from the original sample in my possession – it does look good.

DorsetBus

23/02/13 – 18:04

Can we see a photo of it, then, please, Dorsetbus?

Chris Hebbron

26/02/13 – 12:32

I wonder if the preservation of buses in non-authentic NBC liveries indicates the age of the preservationists concerned? I suspect that nostalgia grips us all in connection with a particular period of our lives. For me, the bus scene was from about age 3 (1952) to 15 (1964) and from there on it was downhill all the way! (Now I am a grumpy old man who can remember how much better it was then). But in 40-50 years those who are now in the 3-15 age range may well remember purple and pink Barbie Lockheads, or blue red and orange Souter Stagecoaches [or even, perish the thought, washed-out green and white Arriva Departures] with an equally warm and wistful glow.

Stephen Ford

26/02/13 – 13:32

Just as an aside to the colour scheme debate, does anyone agree that the Stagecoach hybrid double decker green scheme is probably the strongest and most appealing of the corporate identities around at the moment?

Phil Blinkhorn

26/02/13 – 13:33

As a grumpy old man born in 1952, I agree with you Stephen. My golden age is 1947 (Regent III/PD2) to 1969 (end of RegentV/PD3/FLF). There have been bright spots (both Leyland – the AN68 version of the Atlantean and the Olympian are worthy classics) in later times, but not many. As a coach man, the heavy Reliances, REs and later Leopards, as well as modern Tigers as well. The old liveries were aesthetically far better than modern and I prefer original to later. Even Sheffield had two alternative liveries and the Roes moved from to another with repaints under different General Managers. Authentic liveries to the vehicle are therefore correct – if not acceptable. [I think RTs and RMs in National Leaf Green are HORRIBLE!

David Oldfield

26/02/13 – 15:27

I know that there are still many on this forum who buy into the bad press of Stagecoach – most of which was press fabrication or exaggeration. [If you don’t believe me, consult OFFICIAL history, and I don’t mean just Stagecoach archives.] Their new corporate livery is fairly restrained but things like Gold and the “Green” liveries are lessons in restraint. Mind you, I think I would still put Go-Ahead ahead!

David Oldfield

26/02/13 – 17:25

I want to respond to two points in this thread. Firstly not everyone born in 1952 is grumpy, I’m actually quite nice [at times]. Secondly choice and memories of colour depends where you grew up. In Taunton it was green WN/SN buses and green/two tone greens of various WR diesel hydraulic locomotives plus green DMUs and a reminder “to eat your greens” which ultimately leads to that famous bus photographer’s quote – the other side is always greener.

Ken Jones

27/02/13 – 05:48

Well Ken. Somebody has to be nice, so it might as well be you. Congratulations. You have the job!

David Oldfield

27/02/13 – 05:49

Colour Schemes, Stephen: the other day I saw an Arriva repaint in cream, with the dark blue skirt but a turquoise (instead of cream) curl behind the door. Are we returning to normality?

Joe

04/04/13 – 06:19

Thank you to the person who asked about seeing a picture of my respray in Alder Valley Dark Red on an EFE FLF. Yes I’ll be only too happy to put a picture up once its finished – I’m now also doing a Bristol RE in the same livery having got the required info together so I’ll add a photo of this as well. Please give me a while though as I’m re-organising my workshop and with two upcoming model railway shows to attend with my layouts it may be later in the summer before I can finish the buses. Then its on to several other repaints such as a City of Gloucester (blue) VRT / Leyland National and RE in NBC style and then the first of the next steps – scratch built West Riding Guy Wulfrunians – more on that project later if anyone is interested.

DorsetBus

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

17/07/13 – 07:09

Just picked up on this thread with regards to NBC livery. When I first took an interest in buses in the 70s our school buses were Cumberland FLFs which were gradually being turned out in poppy red. At the time they seemed fresh and modern and the old livery seemed dark and past its sell by date. Not sure I would still agree though! Towards the end of the decade I went on a tour of the Leyland National factory. Apart from a pair of buses for McGill at Barrhead it seemed to be a sea of poppy red and leaf green. However, the shades of these so-called standard colours varied significantly from operator to operator. When I asked about this I was advised that each operator specified a different mix. The other NBC shade that I was very familiar with at that time was the yellow used by Northern on vehicles in the Tyne and Wear area. This was a shade of cadmium yellow as used by TWPTE (the British Standard was called Goldcup) and it worked much better than poppy red in an urban environment. What I don’t understand is why EFE keep churning out models in this livery but of a shade that is considerably paler and therefore very insipid. It is too light to even be excused as colour scaling!

Mike Morton

17/07/13 – 09:09

In response to Phil Blinkhorn’s ‘aside’ on this subject I agree the Stagecoach hybrid green livery is by far the best I have seen on a double decker for many years and is closely matched by the current Newport Buses livery on their single deck Scanias now operating the Park and Ride service in Cardiff (no doubt much to the ire of that City’s transport dept).
As a further aside, even the temptation of free Wi-Fi on Stagecoach hybrid operated route 50 in Manchester wasn’t sufficient to prevent me from route testing the new Metroline trams from East Didsbury to the Media City.

Orla Nutting

18/07/13 – 07:26

By coincidence, for the first time in around 10 years i was in the Newport and Cardiff areas 3 weeks ago and totally agree with Orla’s comments.

Phil Blinkhorn

Hants & Dorset – Bristol Lodekka – GRU 978D – 1547

Copyright Pete Davies

Hants & Dorset Motor Services
1966
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

In case readers were thinking the bulk of my photographs are of operators in the Midlands and North of England, here is something to balance matters. GRU978D was a Bristol FLF6B in the Hants & Dorset fleet. She is seen on the sunny morning of 29 May 1970, and is at Hamble Square, ready to return to Woolston on the 81.
I believe she went to the USA when withdrawn.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

14/08/12 – 06:51

As a young enthusiast on the south coast, Hants and Dorset was my nearest Tilling operator, often seen at Fareham, and Southampton. In those days, I sometimes felt that Tilling companies (BTC, then THC) were all “much the same”. That was before the impact of NBC – then we really knew what “all the same” meant! Here in the south, I reflect that it was possible to distinguish between the green Tilling companies (Hants and Dorset, Southern/Western National, Bristol Omnibus) or red ones (Wilts and Dorset, Thames Valley) by little idiosyncrasies as fleet number application (plates or transfers), the obvious registration letters used, and even destination indicator styles. Although the screen layout was an evolving national policy, somehow the style of the text differed between these operators – or was it just my imagination!? Several of these fleets also contained a number of vehicles unique to themselves. At Hants and Dorset, there were all-Leyland PD2s (highbridge), some NCME-bodied Regents (diverted from Western SMT), and H&D’s own open-top rebuilds with full-fronts. I think these bodies started on some pre-war Bristol Ks, and were transferred successively over a few years to some war-time Ks, and finally to some post-war Ks. These bodies, I believe, were rebuilt by H&D’s works from the original Brush bodies supplied pre-war (as ordinary half-cab double-deckers). So the FLF in the picture would have been “standard viewing” at the time, but brings great pleasure now. Incidentally, the name Hants and Dorset has disappeared, but the company became owned by Wilts and Dorset after privatisation (a reversal of the NBC era, when H&D controlled W&D!). But under modern W&D control, the H&D subsidiary is now called “Damory Coaches”. While in Weymouth last week, I photographed two Olympians – but they weren’t sailing – just waiting near the King’s Statue on the seafront for their return journey on their Olympic charter. Much too modern for this site, but they did look proud in the sunshine.

Michael Hampton

14/08/12 – 11:37

Have no history whatsoever with Hants & Dorset, but always preferred the Bristol engine. H & D had some of the rare (late) Leyland engined FLFs. I only learned recently that this option was put on the list after the Bristol engine was removed from it.
Looking at this picture though, it shows the perfect proportions of the FLF body. Balance and symmetry are always the basis of a good design.

David Oldfield

14/08/12 – 11:39

Rob Sly has an excellent website listing preserved Bristol Lodekka buses, VR, LH and RE. This bus did go to USA and was red in 2011 which is the last update – full details at //bcv.robsly.com/

Ken Jones

15/08/12 – 07:55

As far as I’m aware, one of the main reasons Northern bought Routemasters was United’s introduction of this type of Loddeka onto the routes they operated jointly. Northerns RD Park Royal PD2’s were getting a bit long in the tooth, and although the PDR1 Atlantean had been in service with Northern for a couple of years it was decided to go for the Routemaster instead. Being a BET company, Northern never had any of these, but that all changed with the formation of NBC, when for reasons best known to the powers that be, long established fleets were shuffled around like decks of cards. I cant remember the exact number, but at Percy Main we had some Daimler Fleetlines transferred to United in exchange for Loddeka’s, but they only stayed a matter of a few weeks and were replaced by the AEC Renowns that came from East Yorkshire, the Bristol’s going on to other depots. I remember one or two drivers being caught out by the gearbox, where it wasn’t possible to go into neutral from fifth without going through forth. Digressing back to fleet reshuffles, some depots got buses from as far afield East Kent and Maidstone and District, make sense of that if you can.

Ronnie Hoye

15/08/12 – 07:56

On the fringes (in two respects) to what Michael H said about name changes, I notice that neighbour Wilts & Dorset are re-naming their Bournemouth and Poole operation ‘MORE’! Bizarre!

Chris Hebbron

15/08/12 – 07:57

Can’t help but agree with you David, on the ‘just right’ proportions of the FLF. Handsome machines from any angle. Hants & Dorset did indeed have some FLFs with Leyland (0.600) engines, as did Wilts & Dorset. Interestingly, both fleets also specified semi-auto gearboxes to mate up with them. I could never understand however, why H&D had to change it’s livery from green to red under NBC ownership. Surely it can’t have been to differentiate between the H&D and Provincial (green) fleets. A similar fate befell West Riding Auto up here in the ‘Olympic Medal County’ of Yorkshire, where WR’s green fleet went red under NBC. Strangely, this meant that its fleet livery was then the same as associate company Yorkshire Woollen District, which retained its red. Maybe someone could explain?!

Brendan Smith

15/08/12 – 11:30

Chris H, there are rumblings that the name SALISBURY REDS is being extended from just the company’s activities in that City to Romsey and other routes as well, while MORE is being extended from Bournemouth and Poole to include Lymington. It’s being said that the W&D name will vanish (again) from bus sides, though I understand that it will remain as the legal lettering.

Brendan, going on from that, the history of Wilts & Dorset to 1972 includes a reference to the green to red transition of Hants & Dorset. It has nothing to do with trying to distinguish from Provincial. When the joint management of H&D/W&D were told that the W&D name was to be dropped, they were so disgusted by the dropping of such a highly respected name they decided “We’re going red”.

Pete Davies

15/08/12 – 11:31

No logic in the halls of NBC Brendan. Maroon East Midland became leaf green.

David Oldfield

15/08/12 – 14:55

Wasn’t NBC policy a poor attempt at LT/Greenline… Country services to be green, urban services red? If I recall, a lot of the “used” Wulfrunian replacements at WR had arrived in green… and I think stayed that way…?? Anyway, privatised WR went back to green, if not the same one…. Of course, WR had once been part red anyway!

Joe

19/08/12 – 07:52

This must be the smartest design of all ECW double decker Bristols

Jim Hepburn

19/08/12 – 07:54

David, I seem to remember that East Midland (maroon) absorbed Mansfield District (green), is that when East Midland went green?

Vernon Ford

19/08/12 – 08:30

That’s very true, Vernon – but it’s no excuse! [I read recently a theory that NBC went green for rural and red for urban – but that doesn’t explain Hants & Dorset going from green to red!] …..and of course the blues (East Yorkshire and Midland General) had to go red.
None of this would have been half so bad if Tilling Red, Green and Cream had been retained. Visually – and on quality – they were better than Leaf Green and Poppy Red which faded within the year.

David Oldfield

19/08/12 – 12:00

I seem to recall reading somewhere that certain bus companies which had their origins in tramways, and which had not set up a separate company later to operate buses, were therefore statutory companies (i.e. set up by Acts of Parliament). The Acts specified in very minute detail the activities of the operator and in some cases this could even specify the livery that would be used (though obviously not in the majority of cases as many tramway operators changed their liveries). I believe Mansfield District was such a case, and the green livery on the bus fleet could only be changed by another Act of Parliament, which would have been too much hassle, so when East Midland took them over it was easier to adopt a green livery for the entire fleet. Has anyone else heard of this?

John Stringer

19/08/12 – 15:05

This may be right- I think, John S, that tramways regulations were why West Riding ran a red fleet on the old tram routes, and there might be some obscure connection with the centre entrances?

Joe

20/08/12 – 07:59

John, regarding your comments on statutory companies and Acts Of Parliament, I seem to recall reading something similar about Provincial surviving as a fleet in its own right for a similar reason, after acquisition by NBC. Even though Provincial came under Hants & Dorset administrative control, the fleetname and green livery were retained, whereas Wilts & Dorset, a larger NBC subsidiary, was swept away altogether under NBC ‘rationalisation’. If the above is correct, was another Act of Parliament actually passed when NBC was privatised? If it wasn’t, on a mischievous note, wouldn’t it be nice to inform First Group that Provincial’s fleetname and livery must be reinstated….?

Brendan Smith

20/08/12 – 08:00

Joe, am I right in thinking that West Riding trams were red and buses green? (why the difference? – a subsidiary company operated the buses to start with?? [time to consult bookshelf!]) and this difference perpetuated on the Wakefield-Leeds tram-replacement buses because those services operated “jointly” with the Rothwell-Leeds services of LCT. Red WR buses could carry local passengers, green buses could not. I think the distinction was ended after LCT bought out Wallace Arnold’s Kippax & District (also Farsley Omnibus Co) operations: a coordination agreement (see V4 of John Soper’s/LTHS’s excellent history of LCT et al) was subsequently entered into in respect of the Leeds-Garforth corridor, which allowed (green) WR buses to carry local passengers – so the retention of red buses on the “track” was pointless, although as there were still WR services that couldn’t pick up in Leeds I suppose WR could have painted Leeds-Garforth buses in red as well. Whatever, with all these (in many cases poorly advertised) restricted carrying arrangements – which varied from town to town – in force is it any wonder that passengers deserted the bus?

I’m going to stick my neck out here and say that this red “urban”/green “rural” NBC livery theory is a load of tosh – Alder Valley (a new company) went red – and it’s territory can hardly be described as urban – as did East Yorkshire (ditto, country-wise) when it changed colour. Cumberland, Ribble, West Yorkshire, Eastern Counties, East Kent (and the previously-mentioned Hants & Dorset) – all with large rural areas stayed/went red. I remember reading, many years ago when the privatisation BA livery was introduced, that even office furniture down to desk tidies was changed: the logic being that corporate means the same throughout, down to the last item. I’ve read that NBC (and their design consultants!) wanted to go “poppy red all over” but that that the managers of green fleets put forward a strong-enough case for that colour to be retained. The blue fleets weren’t so lucky, in the long run: no standard blue was decided on and the choice of colour was left down to the Regional Chairman: Stratford Blue had gone by this time; Midland General was told to go red, after a period in which it painted it’s buses in NBC-style “Balfour Beatty” blue; EYMS and Sunderland District were allowed to stay (their own) blue by the Regional Chairman ([sic] I think, as NBC seemed to have a habit of changing Regional boundaries around this time), but Sunderland District was then absorbed by Northern – and that just left EYMS with a non-standard indigo livery, which then succumbed . . . except for plucky little Jones. Now I’ve heard that when the directors of Jones sold out to NBC they insisted that the the Jones identity AND blue be preserved for ten years – would that fit in with when the Jones identity disappeared under MAP? Wholly-urban Provincial and (OK, this is pushing it) Bristol Joint Services and “Bath Services” stayed green, and indeed, Cheltenham District went green. Red “urban”. green “rural”? – seems like a London-centric fixation.

Philip Rushworth

20/08/12 – 09:06

Nah, Philip. My body’s down south but my heart’s still in the north.

David Oldfield

20/08/12 – 11:40

Nay Philip, I haven’t a clue. West Riding buses were green except the red ones on the old tram routes- Leeds and, I think, Ossett. These had centre entrances and, I think, double staircases (like trams?!) An early example of route branding, but can anyone confirm the fundamental reason? Was it passenger co-ordination, or tramway legislation? After all, Yorks Woollen latterly ran into Leeds in red….
I still think that deep in the NBC head office was the belief that buses were born either green or red, and green ones ran in leafy suburbs. The fact that this didn’t work across the country was only realised later….

Joe

20/08/12 – 13:56

Just a small point arising from Philip Rushworth’s comment on Alder Valley. When Aldershot and District was, in effect, taken over by Thames Valley – one of the best BET companies being swallowed up by one of the worst BTC ones – to form Alder Valley in January 1972, the livery initially adopted was maroon, on the rather tenuous pretext that this was the colour formed by mixing TV red and A&D green. London Country Bus Services next door already used a green livery, so that, when the dead hand of Freddy Wood’s standardisation came to be applied, the maroon became red.

Roger Cox

20/08/12 – 13:58

Brendan, When the Barbie livery was introduced, along with the dropping of the local fleetnames, I wrote to the local branch of First to suggest the very same thing in respect of Provincial. The then MD wrote back to say they had considered this, but weren’t worried. From that, I guess the disposal of certain fleetnames may have been written into the 1985 Act, but I must admit I’ve never read it.

Pete Davies

21/08/12 – 07:34

As well as Bristol staying green so did Crosville who were a very urban operator in the north of their territory.

Chris Hough

21/08/12 – 08:32

Yes Chris, but outside Bristol and Liverpool/Wirral they were both very rural.

David Oldfield

21/08/12 – 20:29

We can surely add Eastern National and United Counties to the list of the NBC “Greens” with much urban mileage.

Roger Cox

24/08/12 – 08:26

Joe
The fundamental reason, was I think, that red buses on “the track” (Leeds-Wakefield) were joint/coordinated with LCT buses on Leeds-Rothwell (both having been jointly-worked/coordinated tram services) and could pick-up within the LCT area. The significance of this distinction ended when green WR buses on the Leeds-Garforth corridor were also allowed to pick-up within the LCT boundary following a co-ordination agreement with LCT on that corridor.

Philip Rushworth

04/02/13 – 06:59

Further to the query regarding the survival of Gosport & Fareham under NBC, I well remember Peter Hunt, then General Manager at H&D/G&F telling me that, as G&F was a Statutory Company, an Act of Parliament would be necessary to extinguish it. At that time (around 1977) the estimated legal costs of such an Act was Â£30,000, which was not considered justified. In any case, Peter Hunt said in a public meeting at which I was present “I think small is beautiful” he thought the efficiency benefits of small-unit cohesion far outweighed any possible advantage from scrapping it. Would that the current crop of industry managers had his wisdom!

David Jones

04/02/13 – 09:58

It’s statutory status probably stemmed from its creation as a tram company. I would have thought, though, that the name could merely have been discontinued and/or the company made moribund. It looks as if the small is beautiful, and a certain affection for this quirky organisation by Peter Hunt and well-loved by locals and enthusiasts alike, won the day! And hooray for that! Shame it never happened to equally loved and respected Samuel Ledgard.

Chris Hebbron

25/06/13 – 07:40

Here’s one for Lodekka enthusiasts… I once boarded a Hants & Dorset FS which featured something I’ve never ever seen on any other Lodekka – it had an opening top vent in the nearside rear lower bulkhead window. I know this to be true, but can anyone shed any light on this particular vehicle?

Colin Plucknett

25/06/13 – 11:45

Coincidence can be a funny thing. I’m travelling at present but have a number of models with me to show to/sell to a friend. One is a Corgi Lodekka FS being Hants and Dorset 1512, CEL 860C. This is modelled with a top opening light in the nearside front bulkhead window so I presume that all that batch, at least, had them.

Phil Blinkhorn

25/06/13 – 11:47

Colin both West Yorkshire and Crosville also had an opening window on the front lowerdeck window on their FS Lodekkas.

Chris Hough

28/06/13 – 07:22

Thanks very much Phil and Chris for your interesting replies – however, the window I am thinking of is one of the pair in the rear downstairs. I have since turned up one half-shot from a book and you can just see what I mean. It really is a rare thing – and at least it proves I’m not going mad!!! Any further ideas chaps?

Colin Plucknett

13/12/13 – 16:55

In case anyone is curious, the last H&D FLF 1577, LLJ 443F, is preserved and appears annually at the King Alfred Running day in Winchester, on 1st January. Free rides all day on part of the 47 road, all welcome.

Alex Geisler

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

13/02/14 – 17:01

When Hants and Dorset was split up into smaller units Wilts and Dorset was one of the resulting companies.
To rename buses from Hants and Dorset to Wilts and Dorset the simple expedient of printing some stickers that read “WIL” and placing them over the “HAN” of Hants and Dorset was used.

David R

Southern Vectis – Bristol Lodekka – KDL 414 – 518

Copyright Pete Davies

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1954
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW LD57R

KDL 414 is a Bristol LD6G with the usual ECW H60R body, still in Tilling green, but with NBC fleetname and the white stripe. She was one of ten which were borrowed at the time, and has gained a Hants & Dorset fleet number (3493) instead of her “real” one. She is in the yard of Southampton depot on a dull lunchtime in March 1974.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

16/10/12 – 16:57

A lovely photo of an icon in design which does speak well for the quality of the Bristol and ECW product at 20 years of age. Just a little puzzled at the seating capacity which was normally 58 seats in this first tranche of 1954 Lodekkas. The 1955 build saw seating increase to 60 seats but some operators still preferred 58 seats.

Richard Fieldhouse

Info from 1963 OBF 3 South Central

Peter

16/10/12 – 16:57

One of the early LDs with long radiator grille, as used up to 1955. The red bus behind has the same type of grille. However, it was not unknown for the long and short grilles to be exchanged during overhaul.

Geoff Kerr

16/10/12 – 17:30

Here is another shot of one of these Southern Vectis early LD6G Lodekkas. KDL 401, SV fleet no.505, delivered in March 1954, is shown at St. Boniface Down on 28 August 1967. According to Bus Lists on the Web, this bus and its fellow no.518 above originally had ECW bodywork with a capacity of H33/21R. It is possible that this was increased later, as others within the same batch had H33/25R seating accommodation.

Roger Cox

17/10/12 – 08:46

I very much preferred the original long radiator grilles, as shown on the SV buses, to the later shorter ones which, in my opinion, ruined the look of the vehicles.
The reason for the 58 seat capacity is interesting. It arose because the inward facing seats were for two people instead of the normal three – due to the enormous intrusive differential housings, these being to go along with the original intention to have twin propshafts and diff’s to achieve the low height with the “highbridge” upper saloon. The first thirteen production models which West Yorkshire had (DX3-13) suffered from this lower saloon gangway handicap even though the transmission had already been revised to one propshaft and differential.

Chris Youhill

17/10/12 – 08:46

Nice to see a long grille version of the Lodekka, (always the DX in my mind) – relatively rare. ECW were really consistent in producing restrained and well-balanced designs. In view of Phil Blinkhorn’s contribution to the Ugly Bus Page and the majority response to the recent Queen Mary posting, however, perhaps it’s fortunate that they never produced a full-fronted version of the Lodekka!

Roy Burke

17/10/12 – 08:47

The seating arrangement when these 10 were with Hants & Dorset is noted in the PSVC listing (PK782) as H33/27R. I submitted this for consideration after reading the recent comments about a West Yorkshire MW regarding vehicles with the traditional livery but carrying NBC ’embellishments’.

Pete Davies

07/11/12 – 15:27

The early batches of SVOC Lodekkas were fitted with luggage racks in place of the longitudinal seats on one or both sides at the rear of the saloon, giving a total capacity of 54, 56 or 57 seats. The racks were installed for railway replacement purposes as the Island’s rail network was being run down. They were subsequently removed as more holiday makers came by car, seating capacity reverting to 60. Long radiators and split rear window – the real classic every time!

Trevor

Southern Vectis – Bristol Lodekka – MDL 951 – 541 / OT1

Copyright Pete Davies

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1956
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW O60R

Here is a view of MDL 951. She was new to Southern Vectis in 1956 with an ECW H33/24R body, but, in this view, she has been converted to O60R format. She’s in the “dual purpose” version of NBC livery as OT1. We see her at Yarmouth, on a sunny evening in June 1974. The blind has just been changed for another trip and the driver walks round to check it. She isn’t mentioned in the 2012 PSVC listing, but her sister 954 is.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

12/04/13 – 12:21

I have a video on Youtube taken in 1998 showing a Southern Vectis open top Lodekka in action (10.56) near to Alum Bay (Isle of Wight Memories 1998). I cannot read the registration number because at that time I was using old fashioned analogue technology but this particular bus is painted cream all over. Also on the same video is some footage of the island’s narrow gauge steam railway.

John Barringer

13/04/13 – 12:37

John,
Thanks for your comment. I’ve now had a chance to look at your video. The Lodekka in question certainly looks to be one of this batch, but which one is anyone’s guess. The Isle of Wight Steam Railway, by the way, is normal standard gauge, not narrow. The stock just looks smaller than normal.

Pete Davies

14/04/13 – 18:20

This brings back memories of my visits ‘over the water’ to the IoW from Pompey. The Yarmouth-Alum Bay run was/is impressive. Sadly, I can’t recall what open-toppers I rode on now.
I notice that the driver appears to be wearing cycle-clips; not an unusual habit among older drivers at the time.

Chris Hebbron

Crosville – Bristol Lodekka – 4227 FM – DFG 157

Crosville Motor Services
1964
Bristol Lodekka FS6G
ECW H33/27RD

Here is a Bristol Lodekka FS6G with rear entrance ECW body and dates from 1964. Crosville bought both long and short F series Lodekkas. DFG157 is one of the short ones. It was withdrawn by Crosville in 1977 and is now preserved
Photographed 8/5/2011 whilst in service at The Wedgwood Potteries rally “Take me home country roads.”

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

21/05/13 – 15:47

I always thought the FS was a more subtle bus than the FLF with just the right amount of side profile curvature, I can never decide whether I prefer this destination indicator layout or the T type as used by West Yorkshire. The bus is a true post war classic especially when fitted with a Bristol engine, although others may differ.

Chris Hough

22/05/13 – 07:30

The Bristol BVW engine and the earlier AVW, like the Daimler CD6, were introduced in part to relax the constraints placed upon chassis production volumes by the limited supply of Gardner power plants. The AVW was a straightforward dry liner engine, and proved fairly trouble free, but the wet liner BVW, introduced in 1957, did give problems in service, and went through a series of modifications. In the 1970s, when the Stokes led Leyland empire dominated the industry, BVW production was halted and spares became very difficult to obtain. Several Tilling group companies re-engined some of their BVW powered Lodekkas with Gardner units in consequence.

Roger Cox

22/05/13 – 08:55

And it’s the “right” shade of green for a Bristol/ECW combination, not that dreadful NBC attempt . . .

Pete Davies

22/05/13 – 09:39

Roger, is of course, right in every respect. What he didn’t say was that there were continuing capacity problems at Gardner’s and British Leyland then offered the O.600 as an alternative to the withdrawn BVW option – which was taken up by Hants & Dorset and Wilts & Dorset.

David Oldfield

22/05/13 – 11:11

And once again Ken, a really superb photo of a preserved bus caught in a timeless landscape looking just as it would have in its heyday, rather than parked in a line up on some car park, all covered in rally stickers, and surrounded by stalls and people in high-vis. Keep up the good work !
I agree with you about the FS, it was a superbly proportioned design. Just ‘right’. Though the Gardner engined Lodekka almost by definition had to be the most reliable and efficient version, speaking purely from an enthusiast’s aesthetic point of view, they just had to have Bristol engines. Along with most AEC’s, the Bristol-engined Bristol was one of my favourite bus sounds ever.

John Stringer

22/05/13 – 17:51

You and me both, John – AEC & Bristol engines. But there were problems with wet-liners with both makes…..

David Oldfield

23/05/13 – 07:58

The whine of a Regent V box always made me think we`re going back to the days of the TD1 !

Jim Hepburn

23/05/13 – 07:58

Ken, thank you for posting a photograph that is beyond superb. This photograph manages to capture the very essence of Crosville, a Bristol Lodekka and a rural scene. I could look at this photograph for hours and never get tired.

Kevin Hey

23/05/13 – 07:59

May I suggest that the date was Sunday the 18th rather than the 8th? I was at the Rally and travelled on this Lodekka. It brought back fond memories of my daily travels from Gresford to grammar school in Wrexham on umpteen Crosville Ks and Lodekkas on the D1 service heading ultimately for Llangollen.
When I filmed the bus at the Rally mid-afternoon, it was displaying ‘Private’ and ‘D45’. Presumably, the destination had been changed to avoid misleading any intending passengers, though an ex-Devon General Atlantean proudly displayed ‘Dawlish’ all day.

This was the first time I’d attended the Potteries Rally and was amazed to see the line-up of elderly vehicles put on show by the Emerton Brothers as ‘Bounty Country Buses’. Seeing a Dennis Ace and two Crossley coaches, among other gems, was a truly heart-warming experience.

Berwyn Prys Jones

23/05/13 – 07:59

A lovely shot Ken, and good to see the bus in Tilling green as Pete says. Also good to see the Lodekka grille and surround as they should be, and not painted green as sadly Crosville appeared to do with so many of their Lodekkas on repaint. (Northern General treated their acquired examples similarly if memory serves correctly). Even if the buses were sprayed, rather than hand-painted, surely there was no excuse for such corner-cutting shodiness. Things didn’t improve with the advent of NBC’s corporate livery, as Crosville along with many other NBC subsidiaries, then painted the mudguards the same colour as the main bodywork as well. Some operators (West Yorkshire, Southern Vectis and Red & White spring to mind) at least attempted to keep some standards under NBC’s somewhat cheapened paint application, by retaining black mudguards front and rear. This did seem to lift the livery on half-cab vehicles, but sadly most NBC subsidiaries did not avail themselves of this.
While the BVW engine did have some problems with the wet liners, the bottom end was just about bomb-proof, and West Yorkshire’s examples achieved some amazing mileages between overhauls. Head gasket failures were not uncommon at one time, but much of the problem was felt to be due to the infamous CBC ‘heating’ system and its airlock-inducing pipework, rather than the engine itself. It is surely no coincidence that as WY steadily converted many of its later CBC Lodekka ‘steamers’ to conventional radiator and heater layout, the boiling and head gasket problems seemed to decrease.
As for Lodekka engine sounds – the induction roar of the AVW, the somewhat more powerful sound of the BVW, the ‘staccato’ bark of the 5-pot Gardner, the purposeful growl of the 6-cylinder Gardner (LW and LX) – I love ’em all!

Brendan Smith

23/05/13 – 10:12

…..but the music of the “pre-war” whine is part of the attraction of the Regent V. [Posted by a professional musician!]

David Oldfield

23/05/13 – 10:13

I’m glad this picture is generating such positive responses especially as I took it on the move from another vehicle. It’s very pleasing when someone says they could look at it all day. You start to see buildings etc you hadn’t previously noted.
I don’t generally argue about comments as I know next to nothing about buses. I have to confirm the date as 8th May though – it’s on the picture generated by the camera and I attach a calendar for May 2011.
I’ve now been to four of these Potteries Rallies and two at Hanley all organised by POPS. I’ve just donated all the pictures I’ve taken from all these events to their group

Ken Jones

The 8th of May 2011 was a Sunday the 18th was a Wednesday.

23/05/13 – 16:12

David O, I respect your professional musical knowledge, but with regard to the Regent V, I confess that I always felt cheated. My first experience of the type was with the Nottingham variety that appeared about 1956, and although the sound was quite nice, it always seemed to me a cheap and jazzed up imitation of the real pre- and post-war sliding mesh gearbox Regent sound. I am afraid that familiarity bred contempt for the homely soothing pre-selector Regent, that seemed almost universal in NCT at that time.

Stephen Ford

24/05/13 – 15:14

David, I must point out I had high regard for TD1s. Our local company at the time, Chieftain Buses of Hamilton had several second-hand examples in my schooldays.
One of them, which would have qualified for the Ugly Bus page, with a UF registration, so presumably came from Brighton, had the smoothest ride of any bus I have ever ridden on – including modern coaches.

Jim Hepburn

26/05/13 – 07:47

This year I had the opportunity to photograph the vehicle to the rear. It’s heading for the Potteries Rally and I took this shot from JFJ 873.

Ken Jones

27/05/13 – 06:55

On the subject of bus music, I am suffering from Regent V deficiency at the moment. I expect I’ve got a recording of one somewhere, but I don’t think my wife would have appreciated that with her lunch, so I had to make do with Sibelius 5 (the last movement has a certain similarity!).
I must confess, though, that I prefer the sound of a Gardner engine, and it is a source of frustration that, during the brief period when AEC offered them, there never were any D3RV6Gs to go with Glasgow’s D2RV6Gs and the D2RA6Gs at Rochdale and Aberdeen. Not only has this deprived me of what would have been an interesting array of sound effects, but it also deprived the world of a double decker with a Gardner engine and a synchromesh gearbox that worked properly – something which I would have thought highly desirable.

Peter Williamson

27/05/13 – 09:01

On the subject of musical parallels with the bus world, I suppose the nearest equivalent to a trolleybus would be John Cage’s ‘4 mins 33 secs’. I yearn for the day when Radio Three’s ‘Building a Library’ undertakes a comparative evaluation of this piece.

Roger Cox

28/05/13 – 07:38

I recall going to a concert in Bristol many years ago when this piece was played. It was a very ragged performance, I assume because the orchestra was under-rehearsed!

Chris Hebbron

28/05/13 – 11:01

You’ve just given me an idea, Roger. I will do an arrangement of the Cage for organ and include it in my next recital.
The music of the pre-selector is a distinctly different, and none the worse, experience from the syncro “whine” – both are equally valid. I would point out the gear-box rather than the engine is the most critical instrument (just as the building is rather the THE instrument in the Cage).
Ken. You’ve just proved how attractive the back end of a bus can be.

David Oldfield

28/05/13 – 17:00

That reminds me of a Sketch from the radio comedy programme “Take It From Here” many years ago about Cleopatra:-
….And truly men call her Desire.
Because she is so beautiful? No. from the back she looks like a street-car!

Jim Hepburn

04/06/13 – 06:57

A belated apology to Ken Jones! I was talking about the 2013 rally date rather than 2011 and should have read Ken’s text more carefully. The Lodekka attended both rallies.
The photo I sent in of the three buses owned by the Emerton Brothers was taken at this year’s rally.

Berwyn Prys Jones

05/07/13 – 06:07

For those of you who like timeless views of Crosville vehicles in preservtion may I suggest you pay my flickr pages a visit? You may have to soft-focus on a few modern vehicles and signs on some of them but there should be enough “uncontaminated” views there to make it worth your while.
Five photo excursions rounded up here:
LH visiting Wrexham-Ruthin-Denbigh-Llanrwst
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/1
Busway RE revisits old haunts
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/2
Dual door RE in Gwynedd
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/3
D94 revisited with DP RE
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/4
LH in Snowdonia
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/5

crisparmour

19/07/13 – 08:52

Growing up in 1960s Bournemouth the sight and sound of a Hants&Dorset Lodekka ascending Commercial Road has stayed with me over the years. The FS6G type (as pictured here) seemed a very business-like no-nonsense bus, perfect for the country roads which made up a lot of their routes. I did many trips to Fordingbridge on those as a passenger, and appreciated their rugged if somewhat spartan accommodation. Their appearance was perfectly balanced and probably the finest of all the Bristol buses IMHO.
In comparison, the local BCT buses seemed rather lady-like!

Grahame Arnold

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/09/14 – 07:17

Seeing the photo of DFG 157 which was based at Wrexham brought back old memories of the 1960’s where I was employed as a driver. I remember taking her over on the D1 stand on her first day in service going to Llangollen then back through Wrexham bus station to Chester and return on the D1 route. What a difference to the DLG and DLB’s previously on the D1 service.
My favourite bus in the Wrexham depot was SLG 144. This single decker had fantastic pulling power and when I was on a route with hills and it was parked up at the bus station I used to ‘swop’ it over with the one I was due to take over. When the engine was ticking over it had a strong sounding diesel ‘knock’. I also remember I got the knack of going through the gear box from 2nd to 5th without the use of the clutch using the speedometer and engine revs. Great days and in the years I was at Wrexham I never had one mechanical breakdown. SLA 42 had the side taken out of her when I was at a bus stop on Derby road when a council snow plough slid down the hill and rolled the aluminium side of it like a tin opener. Myself and conductor picked it up and put it in the bus and took it with us on a colliery run! Some years later on a school run from Mild to Treuddyn via Cymau SLG 138 went on fire under the bonnet. I emptied the fire extinguisher into the engine bay through a large hole in the side about six inches diameter and it went out. The engine restarted and we carried on to Treuddyn. Running back light to Wrexham it went on fire again and luckily a service bus came along and we had his extinguisher to put it out. We later discovered some rags had been left in the engine bay and had fallen onto the exhaust manifold. Next day I had old SLG 138 again on Pentre/Moss/Tanyfron/Brymbo. Tough old buses Crosville had.

Brian Wright

03/09/14 – 18:00

Thx for re-living your experiences with us, Brian, a part of history always worth recording for others to enjoy. Snow plough, eh? Bet you never dreamt that that would happen to you!

Chris Hebbron

United Welsh – Bristol Lodekka – SWN 159 – 323

United Welsh Services
1959
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW H33/27RD – O33/27R (1991)

This vehicle was built for United Welsh in 1959 with ECW body, and it worked on routes in Gower. In 1969 when United Welsh merged with South Wales Transport it became 916, and in 1974 it was converted to a tree lopping vehicle. In 1991 it was acquired by the 447 Group and restored as an open topper, and registered as ACY 178A, then ACY 307A its original number having been transferred to a National Express coach. The registration number was later transferred back to this vehicle which was then bought by the SWT Group in 2010. It is seen at the Barry Island event in June 2013 although it was not in service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

15/07/13 – 14:44

In response to the subject of open toppers, hereâ€™s a very extreme one. Poor old once-proud Lodekka, subjected to such ignominy. I don’t know any history of this vehicle. Perhaps somebody can tell us more. I don’t know who took the photo either, it’s just a print that has been in my spares box for many years.

David Rhodes

16/07/13 – 08:01

An open-staircase, frilly-hatted Lodekka toastrack! Looks as though the platform’s been shortened by a foot or so, too. Must have knocked a few hundredweight off the UW. In a way I agree with David R that this LD has suffered ignominious treatment, but it’s all done with such style that I can forgive them!

Ian Thompson

17/07/13 – 07:13

You get the impression that the toastrack is about to set out on a Kenyan safari. All very Colonial-looking!

Chris Hebbron

Central SMT – Bristol Lodekka – FGM 297D – BL297

Central SMT
1966
Bristol Lodekka FLF6G
ECW H44/32F

This photo taken in Glasgow in the late sixties is not very good quality but the subject is quite unusual inasmuch as it was one of a batch of forty bought by Central SMT built to a length of 31ft 6in with a seating capacity of 76 arranged as H44/32F said at the time to be an attempt to match the Atlantean/Fleetline of that era.
The extra length was all behind the rear axle as can be seen by the longer rearmost side windows on both decks and the extra long rear overhang. I believe the only other company to take delivery of this extra length version of the Lodekka was Eastern National some of which may have been used on the Southend – London service, of course around this time the VR was making it’s early appearances and we all know what the Scottish Bus Group thought of that model after a very short experience.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

05/08/13 – 08:18

The extra length doesn’t harm the proportions of the classic ECW design at all. The Eastern National versions were equally good looking and were used extensively around south Essex but the Central SMT colours enhanced the design just that bit more.
Eastern National took the extra length FLFs in both coach and bus versions. There is an Eastern National Omnibus photo pool on Flickr which shows both versions.

Phil Blinkhorn

06/08/13 – 06:16

Initially ENOC used their 31′ FLF (F and G reg) semi-automatic buses on the 151/251/351 routes from Southend/Chelmsford to London (Wood Green), and of course from Canvey to London (WG) when the 151 was diverted there in April 1971.
A couple even featured in the series On The Buses.
The coach versions were used on the Southend to London (Kings Cross/Victoria) X10 service and of course this service’s variants.
In their later lives with ENOC the buses were used all over Essex.
Of this last sanction (236) the last chassis produced was 236.337 and still exists today in the form of AVX 975G (ENOC 2614). This coach was downgraded to bus status and re-numbered 2946. It has been preserved in its original state as 2614 and is still active today.

Andy Spiller

06/08/13 – 08:28

Here’s a photo of AVX 975G/ENOC 2614: SEE: www.flickr.com/photos/

Chris Hebbron

14/08/13 – 06:27

Although the rear overhang looks a little long, I do think that the longer rear-window on each deck gives the body a much better proportion than the “standard” FLF. 14-ply rather than 12-ply rear tyres were fitted to cope with additional rear weight – and didn’t the staircase ascend frontwards? From what I can gather, takers for the “extended” FLF were:
Central SMT: 18 78-seater (1965); 40 76-seater (1966); 25 78-seater (1968)
Eastern National: 33 70-seater (1967); 15 70-seater, 5 55-seater coaches (1968)
Fife: 18 76-seater (1966)
SOL: 25 76-seater (1966)
All were, I think, Gardner 6LX powered, with the ENOC vehicles having semi-automatic transmission. The reason for the variation between 78 and 76 seats on the SBG vehicles was to allow additional luggage space on the 76-seaters – but why were ENOC so conservative in specifying only 70-seats on their bus versions? . . . in fact why not just order “standard” FLFs??
And, and . . . I’ve only driven a Lodekka twice, but I just thought they were horrible. Why did Bristol adopt that raked steering-wheel, which made one feel one was sitting – uncomfortably – in, rather than “on top of” the vehicle. AEC managed a “flat” steering wheel on the Bridgemaster and Renown (Albion’s Lowlander doesn’t count as it just used the standard Leyland Titan front-end).

Philip Rushworth

17/10/13 – 11:40

Yes, the “semis” did have the stairway reversed from the normal front-entrance Lodekkas – and it was cream and rather plasticky compared to their green. It also had an enlarged blunderbus compound. In my day, semis were number coded as “29xx”, 70-seat Front Entrance were “27xx” and “28xx”, 60-seat rear open backs were “24xx” and “25xx”, and IIRC “Big Bertha”, the only 70-seat open backer was “2601”, operating from Brentwood depot. We also had one drop-floor 4-abreast still about, which was number coded “23xx”.

ex-ENOC conductor

United Automobile – Bristol Lodekka – DHN 379C – L179

United Automobile Services
1965
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

The last time I posted one of my own photographs on site was the 14th of November 2010 which is three and a half years ago, now that was a very good run I think, thank you to all the contributors for keeping the site going. So as it as gone a little quiet it is back to my mostly Northern shots, the first being one of my favourite vehicles.

Seen in Scarborough bus station within the first few weeks of service a fine example of the Bristol Lodekka. These Lodekkas were powered by the six cylinder Bristol engine and boy could they go, especially down Burniston Road when on the Scholes Park Rd to Scarborough route I’m afraid I cannot remember the route number.

(After my beloved AECs) What could be better than a Bristol powered FLF? Well an FLF6B in Scarborough, of course. Some of my best holidays, and indeed some of my best days out, have been in Scarborough. (Only bettered by Whitby and Robin Hoods Bay – which are strangely now in the Borough of Scarborough). Much as I love East Yorkshire, Scarborough is in the North Riding and in United country. [I don’t care if you think I’m a bolshy old man. Traditional boundries do mean something.]

David Oldfield

15/05/14 – 07:28

Wonderful shot. These vehicles always looked so solid and well built. The Tilling Red ones always looked much better to me than the green fleets. The thing so fascinating about old bus photographs is the incidental stuff in the photos. The ‘Black & White Minstrel Show’ so politically incorrect by today’s standards and Roses Malton Ales. Bought out and killed off by Tetleys who in turn have been bought out and virtually killed off by Carlsberg!

Philip Halstead

15/05/14 – 09:49

Yes, Philip. You jogged a memory. The only time I ever saw the Black & White Minstrels live was at Scarborough – as was the only time I saw Tommy Cooper live. [Just like that!] Could be they looked solid and well built because they were, and I agree with you about Tilling Red.

David Oldfield

15/05/14 – 11:37

This is indeed a lovely shot of a handsome bus, set off nicely by that red livery. As a former West Yorkshire employee, I must confess to thinking that United’s livery had a slight edge over WY’s from the mid-sixties, when the latter started repainting its buses without the black edging between the red and cream. United retained the black edging and to me their livery then looked just ‘a cut above’. United’s later change to red-painted wheels rather than traditional black endeared me to the fleet even more. That said, both companies definitely maintained their own character, and as an enthusiast I still remained very loyal to West Yorkshire. David, I too must be a member (part time) of the ‘Bolshy Club’, as I know exactly what you mean about the importance of traditional boundaries. A friend who has lived in Newton-le-Willows all his life, still writes Lancashire on his address in correspondence. Newton is officially in Merseyside, but as he says, “it’s nowhere near the docks”. At least the proud folk of East Yorkshire won their battle to have the county name reinstated, instead of the ridiculous ‘North Humberside’ inflicted in 1974. To many of us the roads around Scarborough and the rest of North Yorkshire just do not look right with turquoise buses traversing them instead of red ones, and neither do the roads in Co. Durham and Northumberland. Sorry folks, rant over!

Brendan Smith

15/05/14 – 17:46

Living in the bubble that was Sheffield with AECs (and Leylands) it was always a refreshing delight to go into Tilling land during holidays. Favourites were United and Lincolnshire but I had a soft spot for West Yorkshire when I happened that way – even more so when London journeys linked me up with WYRCC RELH6G coaches. I also remember a journey on the X43 (?) from Leeds to Scarborough by RE. I then sampled the delights of Western/Southern National when we holidayed in the West Country, as well as Bristol on the way down. […..and of course that bastion of AEC, Devon General.] Oh well, nostalgia is a sign of old age. Nurse? Nurse?

David Oldfield

15/05/14 – 17:46

It’s interesting that Brendan notes distinguishing features between United’s and West Yorkshire’s liveries, even though both were Tilling red/cream. I felt the same in the south in the early 60’s, with Wilts and Dorset and Thames Valley. Both were Tilling red, but there was something in “the look” which usually made a slight difference to the eye – Wilts and Dorset had cast fleet number plates, Thames Valley had painted numbers, for example. I felt the same about green Tilling companies, such as Hants & Dorset and Southern/Western National. As a teenager enthusiast, I sometimes felt that Tilling companies could be rather boring because of the similarities. But once NBC corporate livery appeared, boring took on a new definition – ’nuff said!

Michael Hampton

16/05/14 – 06:53

According to Bus Lists on the web, full production records exist for 1714 of these Bristol’s of which 164 were for United. However, another 300 or so were built where only partial records exist, and some of them went to United, so its not unreasonable to assume that the actual number they had would have been nearer the 200 mark. Several United depots ran services into Newcastle, and they always looked well cared for. I cant speak for other depots, but I know that the coaches based at Whitley Bay depot were always washed by hand.

Ronnie Hoye

17/05/14 – 16:03

A fine picture of a well-loved marque. I think the route number from Scholes Park Road at that time would be the 116 cross-town service from Scalby Village to Eastfield Estate. This stopped at Scholes Park Road end on Burniston Road as no service down to Scalby Mills existed at the time.
The Bristol FLF6B did in fact have a second coming in Scarborough in 1977. Chronic bus shortages in the United fleet for the Summer season in 1976 had seen the purchase of a variety of buses from other operators and Scarborough was blessed with some very decrepit MW6G’s from Crosville which thankfully only lasted a few months in to 1977 pending despatch to Barnsley. The shortages continued into 1977 and in June of that year United acquired four FLF6B’s from East Midland which became 545-548 in the fleet. Of these, Scarborough certainly had 546-8 – the PSV Circle records the withdrawal dates as 1/79 for 546 and later in 1979 for 547-8. My office window at the time faced onto Westborough (before pedestrianisation) and it was very obvious when 547 or 548 was dragging itself up the hill from the harbour terminus on service 106 to the Hospital which was a regular turn for these buses together with other town services. There was a bus stop right outside the office and therefore a variety of aural delights during the day. It was a rather incongruous situation whereby the delightful drone of an FLF could be followed by the raucous racket of a Mark 1 Leyland National! At the time, I lived at Cloughton Village some five miles out of Scarborough and on many occasions had need to use United service 114 into Scarborough. Up to 1978, this was a decent fast service due to an old agreement that out of town services could not pick up inbound within the Borough boundary which effectively meant picking up at Cloughton, Burniston and Scalby Villages was allowed but as soon the boundary was reached, ie Hackness Road end approx., then it was non-stop into Scarborough centre which was excellent. After the agreement was re-negotiated, it was much much slower due to many stops in the densely populated area within the borough.

My photo is of 547 ANN 566B at Scarborough Westwood Coach Park in October 1979 shortly before withdrawal.

John Darwent

17/05/14 – 16:26

Thanks John my holidays in Scarborough were in from the mid fifties to the mid sixties. Every year we had a chalet on the North Bay at Scarborough, number 99 actually, and stay in a B&B in Langdale Rd, we had two ways to get back at night. Walk to the Corner Cafe (Waffle Shop) then up through Peasholm Park, Columbus Ravine to Langdale Rd. Or up the back of the chalet over the little train line on to Scholes Park Rd, walk to the top for the bus which was parked waiting in Scholes Park Rd, it was parked about 100 yds from the junction with Burniston Rd opposite a small static caravan site, not sure how it turned round, it just seemed to be always there waiting. We would go by bus in a round about way as far as Dean Rd (Fish and Chips) then down Langdale Rd

Peter

17/05/14 – 19:10

Nice shot of 547 John. It looks in tidy condition, and it must have seemed a real shame that it was soon to be withdrawn. The bus appears to have a one-track route number blind. Was this a standard Mansfield District (its original owner) fitment when new?

Brendan Smith

18/05/14 – 06:31

547 certainly was tidy Brendan but I suppose nobody wanted slow old front engined buses by then despite its condition. I read somewhere that three-track destination numbers were introduced by Midland General on deliveries in 1966 and later, so 547 being a 1964 bus was probably equipped with original fitments said to be two track. Letters seemed to be used as prefixes (the first track) with two numbers on the second track. I’m wondering whether 547 is actually displaying I16 as a makeshift compilation. Destination displays on Mansfield District buses seems to vary somewhat between two and three apertures and perhaps somebody can throw some light on this.
Peter, I’m wondering if there was a seasonal service from Scholes Park Road in the 50’s/60’s in view of what you say. My time in Scarborough started in the mid 1970’s and the earliest timetable I have is from 1984 from which I have quoted. Any buses going down Scholes Park Road could reverse at Scholes Park Avenue, so what you say is probably right. If Gordon England or Gordon Green reads this, they may be able to enlighten us! Present day services by Scarborough & District Motor Services (EYMS) operate as 3/3A and travel down Scalby Mills Road, more less parallel to Scholes Park Road, to the Sea Life Centre and then returning to Scarborough via the ‘The Sands’ residential development built on the site of the old ‘Corner Cafe’. Sadly, the aerial ride has long gone but the North Bay Railway lives on and the Open Air Theatre has recently been restored at a cost of umpteen million.
Swifts Fish and Chips is on the Dean Road/Trafalgar Road corner, about 100 yards past Langdale Road- maybe the same site as you recall.

John Darwent

18/05/14 – 07:12

I have been on Google Earth, you are right about the Fish and Chip shop John but I was wrong about Scholes Park Rd it was actually Scalby Mills Rd. At the time that large Ivanhoe Pub was the static caravan site that was called the Ivanhoe Caravan site I think there was also a shop there as well but that fronted onto Burniston Rd. Sorry about that, that’s old age for you

Peter

19/05/14 – 07:16

All Midland General’s Lodekkas had two track blinds although the earliest ones were retro fitted. As John D says though, from around 1966, three track blinds began to appear which was surprising because MGO had no requirement for them apart from a few works services which had Wxx numbers. ANN 566B was a Mansfield District bus and they all had one track blinds until around 1966. MDT’s services were numbered between 1 and 219 but only about forty of the numbers were used and the blinds carried just those plus a few extras for possible future use. Both companies had via blinds until 1966 when the T layout became standard but no via apertures were ever panelled over, those which had them carried full displays at all times, until the NBC came along, that is!

Chris Barker

19/05/14 – 07:17

I know exactly what you mean Michael when you say about certain former Tilling companies having their own ‘look’. To the casual observer, the BTC/THC ‘nationalised image’ was generally that of Bristol-ECW buses finished in either a red or green livery with one or two cream bands, or in the case of coaches, cream with red or green relief. However, looking a little deeper there were many livery variations such as Brighton, Hove & District’s red with cream window surrounds and roof, Wilts & Dorset’s red, black and cream dual purpose vehicles, and South Midland’s distinctive application of maroon and cream to its coaches. The ex-Balfour Beatty companies wore a livery of blue with cream window surrounds (Midland General and Notts & Derby) or the green version (Mansfield District). Cheltenham District not only retained its distinguished maroon and cream, but also its unusual layout. Turning to coaches, Bristol OC had its Bristol-Greyhound cream and red vehicles with distinctive lettering and logo, and who could forget the cream and black coaches of Crosville? Then there were the ‘classics’ such as Western/Southern National’s Royal Blue fleet, and the equally well-regarded cream and olive green coaches of United. In later years came Eastern National’s famous cream and green Lodekka coaches. Add to the above all the differences in destination layouts, style of fleetname and fleetnumbers, and it can be observed that the BTC companies were not perhaps as rigid in nature as some people believed. It surely provided more interest to the enthusiast than any of the big privatised groups do today.

Brendan Smith

19/05/14 – 07:17

Re 547’s number blind – as John states, from the 1966 deliveries, Mansfield District (green) and Midland General/Notts and Derby (blue) standardised on 3 track number blinds (presumably at the behest of ECW,as MGO/NDT didn’t need three track number blinds until 1978 when the letter/number route numbers were renumbered into the Trent system). Prior to 1966,Lodekkas new to Mansfield District had single track number blinds, as per 547; Lodekkas new to MGO/NDT had two track number blinds. The number partly visible on 547 looks like 106, which is probably an original MDT blind – the range of numbers used in Mansfield, 101 upwards, was not dissimilar to those used in Scarborough.

Bob Gell

19/05/14 – 07:18

With regard to the ex-East Midland (ex-Mansfield District) No.547, Mansfield District did for a long time have single track route number blinds. The number of routes they operated was fairly limited, with three distinct tranches of numbers – single digit, three digit (100 series) and three digit (200 series). Midland General and Notts & Derby of the same group, also used single track blinds for many years, but later went over to two or three track (not sure which). Their route numbering system was one letter followed by a single digit number, (i.e. A1-A9, B1-B9 etc.) This gave them plenty of scope for expansion – as far as I remember, they never got beyond the G series, though there were a few express or excursion operations that did use other letters. And of course, there was the odd man out – the route 44, from Derby to Chesterfield, operated jointly with Trent and East Midland (the only service that took Midland General buses into Derby).

Stephen Ford

19/05/14 – 07:30

My Dad came from Scarborough and as a boy all my summer holidays were spent there staying with my Grand-parents or uncles/aunties. We also had day trips in between so I have always considered Scarborough to be my second home town. In the 1960s the service to Scholes Park Road was numbered 113 and in the timetables the terminus was simply defined as “Scholes Park Road’. However, in a timetable dated 1st October 1937 the terminus is defined as “Scalby Mills Road, Ivanhoe Cafe’.
The number 113 was the highest number used for a Scarborough town service during the 1960s, the other town services were numbered in the 100-110 block. Country service numbers included 111 and 112 plus numbers above 113.
The agreement, to which John D refers, that existed between Scarborough Borough Council and United Automobile Services started in 1931 when the old tramway closed and United provided the much expanded town service bus network. (A paragraph in the book “Trams by the sea’ published by United in 1981 reads “Under a profit sharing agreement with United was that the Corporation would receive 1d per mile operated after the first 8d per mile earned. The Corporation would then take the next 3d per mile earned. Any remaining balances were halved’).
Service 116 linking Newby via Scarborough to Eastfield Estate was classed as a country service. The timetable for this (and all the other country services) contained a notation “No local passengers may be carried wholly within the Borough of Scarborough’.
We often went to the Futurist Theatre to see the Black and White Minstrel Show, had a bowl of ice cream in Pacitto’s ice cream parlour (basket furniture with a sheet of glass on the tops of the table) but our fish and chips came from Cappleman’s in Murchison Street near where some of my relations lived. Both still trading as far as I know. The “waffle shop’ that Peter mentions was actually part of the Scarborough Corporation retailing business.
In November 2012 I attended my niece’s wedding in Scarborough and was sadden to see the development that had wiped away the Corner CafÃ© and adjacent buildings. I have just added a few photographs to my Ipernity site which I took of same. So if you are of a very nostalgic disposition look away now! www.ipernity.com/doc/davidslater
The United garage was in Vernon Road and today is a publically accessible car park run by the Palm Court Hotel. During my visit I couldn’t resist parking our car in this superb building during my stay. The main garage area which could take double and single deckers has had an extra level added. There was a basement garage accessed through a quite small entrance down the hill of Vernon Road. This could only take single deckers. I remember as a boy walking by and seeing a United Welsh coach tightly parked inside along with many others on tour and thinking this United company must be big to have a Welsh connection. I didn’t know how widespread the former Tilling Group was, nor did I know much about the British Transport Commission, at that tender age!

David Slater

19/05/14 – 09:17

……and of course it be came more complicated when MGO & MDT swapped vehicles, as they often did. For a short period of deliveries MGO had 2 tracks and when such examples were moved over to the MDT fleet, as in 1969 with this 1961 FS6G, there was the need for special linen so that a 2 track blind could show 3 digits.

Berisford Jones

19/05/14 – 15:37

John D,
Flattered as I am I regret that I cannot add to the discussion about the turning arrangements at Scholes Park Road. My childhood memories were of Whitby. However I can claim some connections in the area – my Uncle & Aunt lived in Ryecroft Road (just off Scholes Park Road and later my cousin on Scholes Park Road itself. In later life after marriage and a transition from transport to equestrian interests I have been a regular attender and exhibitor at Burniston Show which has occupied a number of sites in the locality.

Gordon Green

20/05/14 – 16:36

When, as a boy, I stayed with relatives in Newby in the summer, via Northstead the 116 was worked by single deckers usually an “L”. It terminated at Five Lane Ends and reversed around the corner to the stop. I don’t think it was a cross-town service then.
I have a Summer 1951 timetable for the town services (100/1/2/3/4/5/6/07/9/10/13). The 113 ran between the Railway Station and Scholes Park Road – on reaching Burniston Road. The return route is just given as the reverse of the outward route. the 109 was the seafront service whilst the 110 was the Oliver’s Mount service.

Malcolm Wells

22/05/14 – 07:21

I commented earlier on the subtle differences between the supposedly same red or green liveries borne by the Tilling companies’ buses. And, of course, there were all those other variations which Brendan and others have referred to. I then stated that the NBC red or green was just plain boring. I still think that’s generally true compared with what went before, but I have to say that John’s picture of United 547 does indeed look smart. I guess it’s because the paintwork still has a shine to it, and of course the ECW bodied FLF also exudes a certain quality. However, whether they were in smart or faded red, there was little to distinguish a United FLF from, say, a Hants and Dorset FLF in NBC days. Uniformity reigned supreme!

Michael Hampton

22/05/14 – 07:23

When at college and university I spent the summers of 1966, 7 and 8 as a conductor in Scarborough. On the 113 at Scholes Pk Road the conductor was meant to use a whistle to signal to the driver when reversing. The snag was he couldn’t hear it so we always used the bell! Some drivers reversed back onto the main road, but most reversed from the main road.
The service had three buses providing a 10 minute service. I still have my staff timetable for 1968 – There was a 10 min service from 07:00(9:30 on sun) – 23:10. For some reason the 23:00 terminated at Northstead. All the theatres had special journeys and I remember the Futurist had the Black and Whites at least two of the years I was in United uniform!

Mr Anon

22/05/14 – 07:24

These recollections of Scarborough and the town services, and especially the sea front service with those full fronted coaches have brought back some very pleasant memories of childhood holidays. I took this shot of BBL61 (LHN 936) opposite Corner Cafe in July of 1961 when I was just thirteen, with an old Agfa camera that my father acquired in Germany during the war. I well remember some of the town services turning round at a roundabout opposite the main harbour, and the buses threading their way through some of the narrow shopping streets leading away from the sea front and up out of the town. Some of the best holidays ever.

Dave Careless

26/05/14 – 09:33

Great picture Dave! The destination blind shows ‘The Mere’ which many will recall is where one could sail on the Hispaniola and dig for dubloons on Treasure Island. One of the ‘pirates’ did have only one leg – perhaps a war injury – a prerequisite for such a job? My Dad or Uncle knew ‘Ben Gunn’ on the island!
For many years the buses on services 100 and 101 showed ‘Edgehill Road’ as the destination which meant little or nothing to holidaymakers. I recall ‘The Mere’ starting to appear on the buses at some stage.
In the 1960s another uncle and auntie lived in a bungalow on Mere Lane overlooking The Mere, a smart property then but absolutely fantastic now, so we regularly travelled on the buses to visit.
The last time I looked The Mere was devoid of all the little buildings/kiosks for boat hire, ice creams etc. There was once an area for water ski-ing.

David Slater

26/05/14 – 11:25

Regarding the route numbers in question, I have a 1962 faretable in which the 113 was a local service from Railway Station to Burniston Road (Scholes Park Road).
The 116 was a cross-town route from Eastfield Estate (Overdale) to Newby (Four Lane Ends), but there were no short distance local fares for stages between Steamer Moor Road and Cleveland Avenue (presumably the protected area)

David Todd

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

27/05/14 – 14:03

Fascinating recollections of Scarborough town services back in the day; I think my favourite United route in the area though was the 111, which ran from Scarborough, through Filey, and on to Bridlington if I remember rightly. I can’t even think about it without suddenly smelling fish and chips, or seeing a revolving rack of ‘saucy’ seaside postcards.

Dave Careless

I am not a bus aficionado, just a casual visitor to this site. I remember Eastern National having some ‘stretched’ versions of the FLF6B or Lodekka. The rear side windows (quarterlights?) were wider, making the bus about a foot longer. However, I have not seen any photographs of them on this site. They were a very fast bus.

Martin Robinson

26/09/14 – 05:43

David C – you are right about the 111 service via Speeton and Hunmanby. It did indeed run to Bridlington where it terminated in its own little United bus station on the Promenade (east side almost opposite the superb EYMS station) – well, I say bus station but it was actually a generous forecourt in front of the booking/enquiry office, and is now the outside seating for a small cafe. Like you, fish and chips, saucy postcards, and Joyland Amusements are my treasured memories of Bridlington in the 1940s/50s where I stayed often with Grandma and Aunty Doris – now where are the Kleenex tissues (other brands are available).

Chris Youhill

Mansfield District – Bristol Lodekka – 248 MNN – 552

Mansfield District Traction Company Limited
1963
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

A smart looking Lodekka pictured in Mansfield in August 1968. Detail differences from the THC “norm” where the livery with its larger area of cream and the destination layout. The Bristol BVW engine would no doubt ensure a refined journey on this bus.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

05/12/14 – 05:52

It’s good to see a shot of a Lodekka in something other than a standard Tilling red or green livery and with a different destination display. It almost gives a taste of what might have been if the Bristol/ECW make had been made available on the open market much earlier than it eventually was. There would have been no need then for the Loline and would we have seen Lodekkas in the liveries of such as Luton, Reading, Leigh, Oxford and Lancashire United and dare we say Aldershot & District. Interesting conjecture.

Philip Halstead

05/12/14 – 05:53

At the time of the photograph, Mansfield District had a multiplicity of starting points for their services in the town, this was one of them, Queen Street. Since then, one bus station has come and gone and Queen Street now runs past the frontage of the new bus station which is a short distance ahead of where this Lodekka was standing.

Chris Barker

05/12/14 – 11:35

No need for the Loline? Perhaps, but, good as the Lodekka was, the Loline was a better bus, and I’ve driven both.

Roger Cox

05/12/14 – 11:36

The link below will take you to some magnificent photos of Mansfield District buses, including one of the slightly later FLF/6G’s. Apart from livery, they look so much nicer when shorn of adverts. //midlandgeneralomnibus.

Chris Hebbron

06/12/14 – 07:10

Is it really on the pavement- because the road is already broken up? Clearly cared for- look at the undented dome. Does the camera lie or was that really the green?
But seriously, did these go to West Riding, post Wulfrunian or were those Gardners?

Joe

06/12/14 – 12:01

Whilst it shouldn’t have been parked there I don’t think it’s on the pavement. It’ll be well close inasmuch as the roadway at the rear was tight. It’s not ‘on stand’. There was a small cafe just behind the photographer that survived on trade from the busmen. The 101 stand was about 100yds further on. As for the condition of the vehicle, quite normal for this operator. MDT prided themselves during the 60’s / very early 70’s in not sending any dirty or damaged vehicles out on service. That policy was sadly abandoned once ‘leaf green’ appeared in the stores!

Berisford Jones

07/12/14 – 06:13

Chris H: many thanks for the link to the gallery. The Sunbeam Sikh is nothing short of magnificent, and the rake of the steering column brings us back to Lodekkas and Lolines.

Ian T

07/12/14 – 06:15

Nice to see MDT in the spotlight. I recall my first sighting of an MDT bus when I was about 6 or 7 years old, on a walk with my grandma somewhere in the Moor Bridge area of Bulwell. I identified what I thought was an MGO AEC (same style bodywork, same destination display) but it was GREEN where I was expecting MGO blue.
I remember managing to read the “Mansfield District” fleet name and was intrigued by this first (to me) manifestation of a group corporate style. Obviously I later came to understand this local grouping and always treasured the rare sightings of MDT vehicles. I think the photo captures the shade of green rather well, it was lighter than Tilling green, more a sort of apple green but its rarity in the public domain is all the more special.
Local acquisitions meant that the MDT fleet contained some rarities that sister companies like MGO did not possess, but of course these feature in my my long list of pictures I should have taken but didn’t.
The transfers to West Riding to replace Wulfrunians were rear-entrance LDs/FSs as far as I know, but this is one of the eras I need to revisit when I can get my time-machine working properly.
I suspect I am not the only one with this problem?

Rob Hancock

Mansfield District Traction Company Limited1954Bristol Lodekka LD6GECW H33/25R

Southern National1964Bristol Lodekka FLF6BECW H38/32F

Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1966Bristol Lodekka FLF6BECW H38/32F

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company1954Bristol Lodekka LD6GECW LD57R

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company1956Bristol Lodekka LD6GECW O60R

Crosville Motor Services1964Bristol Lodekka FS6GECW H33/27RD

United Welsh Services1959Bristol Lodekka LD6GECW H33/27RD – O33/27R (1991)

Central SMT1966Bristol Lodekka FLF6GECW H44/32F

United Automobile Services1965Bristol Lodekka FLF6BECW H38/32F

Mansfield District Traction Company Limited1963Bristol Lodekka FLF6BECW H38/32F

Mansfield District Traction Company Limited
1954
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW H33/25R

Southern National
1964
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

Hants & Dorset Motor Services
1966
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1954
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW LD57R

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1956
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW O60R

Crosville Motor Services
1964
Bristol Lodekka FS6G
ECW H33/27RD

United Welsh Services
1959
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW H33/27RD – O33/27R (1991)

Central SMT
1966
Bristol Lodekka FLF6G
ECW H44/32F

United Automobile Services
1965
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

Mansfield District Traction Company Limited
1963
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F