Tag: ECW

Western National – Bristol KS5G – LTA 813 – W994


Copyright Ken Jones

Western National Omnibus Co Ltd
1950
Bristol KS5G
ECW L27/28R

In 2009 preserved Western National LTA 813 visited the Plymouth Rally travelling under it’s own power there and back from it’s base in Coventry. One of the people travelling back with it was Ken Jones originally from Taunton in Somerset. He managed a photographic stop in the rain at The Parade in Taunton recreating a scene for the 274 service to Roman Road which he used to catch in his youth.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

07/02/12 – 06:51

A superb photograph of what a good British bus should look like! Having said that being brought up in Municipal Lancashire, BTC group buses and Bristol/ECW products were a bit of an alien concept to me as a youngster. They were only seen when holiday trips were made to far flung places like North Wales (Crosville) and Whitby (United) for example. Looking back now however I realise what fine vehicles the BTC had and what classy liveries they used, even if they were standardised on two colours (with odd exceptions). I think of the two standard colours I preferred the red.
In the 1950’s they also sported very clear and practical destination displays. It’s a great pity they were not always used correctly and as time progressed were reduced by painting out or taping over.
Speaking of destination displays, many of the BTC companies showed the fleetname in the destination display. On an outing by coach to Chester Zoo as a boy, I remember seeing lots of vehicles showing ‘Crosville’ on the front and rear destination display. In my innocence I thought this was a place and with the number of buses going there, a pretty big place as well. I never did find it on any map!

Philip Halstead

07/02/12 – 10:58

I think that destination blinds could easily warrant a subject of their own! Two from opposite ends of the country were ‘WORLD’S END’ on Southdown buses around Petersfield. and Glasgow trams sporting the mysterious ‘NORMAL SCHOOL’, the answer to which has always eluded me!

Chris Hebbron

07/02/12 – 15:11

Not to mention Booth and Fisher going “Halfway” (current terminus of the Supertram) or Sheffield Corporation Trams “Intake” – not a suspicious breathing activity!

David Oldfield

07/02/12 – 15:12

Destinations:- a few others that come to mind. “LOOSE” in Maidstone, “BEEHIVE” in Halifax and, uniquely in my experience, “NR. WILLESDEN JUNCTION” on the 630 trolleybus in London. I have never since seen a bus destination blind displaying a point other than the true terminus, but I am sure that our experts will come up with another.

Roger Cox

07/02/12 – 16:34

…and of course there’s the Tracky bus to (or via) JUMP!

Joe

08/02/12 – 06:10

Philip conveys my feelings exactly about what a bus should look like. I became aware of the new Bristol KS6Bs 810 to 813 delivered to West Yorkshire in 1950 when only 9 years old. This was the time when my interest in buses developed and when I see a lovely photo of a Bristol KS, I get flashbacks to my first sighting of a West Yorkshire one in Bradford. The Bristol KS/ECW was a classical design of bus and hopefully I can find one in my photo collection for a future posting.

Richard Fieldhouse

08/02/12 – 06:12

Other destinations that spring to mind are Spittal Tongs and Two Ball Lonan both Newcastle, Clock Face in ST Helens, Bleachworks in Wigan, Load a Mischief in Accrington, Boggart Hill Drive in Leeds who also went to Intake as did Doncaster. Bristol went to Fishponds and Hotwells while Manchester ran to Southern Cemetery.
North of the Border Edinburgh ran to Joppa while Glasgow served Nitshill.
West Riding used to serve Bottomboat while Pennine still serve Giggleswick

Chris Hough

08/02/12 – 09:08

Interesting comments about both odd destinations and the attractiveness of the Bristol Ks with ECW bodies. Can’t add to the destination discussion, (Loose was served by Maidsone Corporation and not M&D, so we confined our amusement to corny remarks about the Loose Womens’ Institute), and I do remember a lad at M&D causing an upset by producing a load of traffic notices referring to ‘Five Aok Green’.
Richard and Phillip are absolutely correct, in my view, in their opinion of what a fine example the Bristol K/ECW combination was of excellent design that proved itself so well in service. I had exactly the same reaction as Richard when York-West Yorkshire took delivery of their first K6Bs, (highbridge, of course). Tilling/Bristol/ECW give the lie to the currently fashionable nonsense that state-owned commercial concerns can’t ever be successful or compete effectively with private enterprise.

Roy Burke

08/02/12 – 11:30

I preferred the KSW6B with highbridge body (United) or similarly clad KSW6G (Lincolnshire and Midland General group). …..an elegant and balanced design.

David Oldfield

PS: How many of you thought LMS was a railway station in Manchester?

08/02/12 – 13:42

I always thought the lowbridge KSW was the least attractive of the K/ECW combinations (though by no means ugly). As David says, the additional height on the highbridge version gave it balance. Personally I thought the narrower KS (and K) looked well in lowbridge format. In always associate them with Summer holidays in Devon and West Cornwall, where narrow roads made their 7 foot 6 width useful well into the Lodekka era. LMS? Nice one David. The giveaway was that all four (five if you include Mayfield) mainline railway stations in Manchester were LMS (though LNER managed to have a bit of London Road)!

Stephen Ford

08/02/12 – 13:43

Speaking of destinations, from Newcastle you can go by bus to New York – Washington – Quebec – Toronto and Philadelphia

Ronnie Hoye

08/02/12 – 16:30

Roger mentioned Halifax buses going to ‘Beehive’. They also went to ‘Cunning Corner’, whilst Wigan’s ran to ‘Dangerous Corner’. Bradford served ‘Idle’, and Huddersfield’s ran to a ‘Hard End’. No further comment on that one.

John Stringer

Careful everybody, the better half is a ‘Cunning Corner’ lass.

I’m surprised ‘Wetwang’ as not been mentioned yet.

Peter

08/02/12 – 16:37

I have to agree that this is a superb bus picture, and it brings back to me those happy days of working for Eastern Counties at Hills Road Depot in Cambridge, when I first started bus driving in 1970. At that time they had several ageing K5G’s with Gardiner engines–so easy to drive. The gears would fall in once you’d got the hang of it. I don’t give all these modern buses a second look, as they seem to be without any character. I progressed to London Transport at New Cross Gge onto RT’s which took more skill, especially changing down for sharp corners.
What a brilliant website this is…it makes me wish I could do it all again.

Norman Long…Retired

08/02/12 – 17:36

Lincolnshire Road Car also did New York, as well as Jerusalem, and the quaintly named Drinsey Nook.

Stephen Ford

08/02/12 – 17:38

Is that Norman Long (retired) or Norman (long retired)?
Peter, you’ve just mentioned Wetwang – actually a very nice village in the Wolds. …..but what about the late Mayor of Wetwang?
As Stephen says, the lowbridge were not ugly – I can never remember ECW doing ugly.
…..and can anyone tell why I can visit Washington and Ashington in West Sussex?

David Oldfield

08/02/12 – 17:39

How wonderfully correct are Richard and Roy when remembering the introduction of the KS series. I share that memory, and can still feel the excitement they caused, as they were so modern looking with their well radiused windows, and “unfussy” squarish outline….so unlike any other marque.
Ours (WY) were KS6Bs of course, and I well remember the whole West Yorkshire Information Service fraternity being equally impressed, and coining the phrase “window specials”.
It all goes to show what a quality outfit was the whole BTC enterprise. Unlike other nationalised organisations, it seemed to embody total efficiency, which must have been a carry over from its original Tilling parentage.
These preserved ECW buses, and I have seen many over recent years, still exude that feeling of solid quality which they had when new!

John Whitaker

09/02/12 – 05:49

Morecambe and Heysham went to Battery, Bury went to Jericho, Manchester went to Exchange (sometimes via FOG!)

Peter Williamson

09/02/12 – 05:50

…..but there’s one I don’t recollect ever seeing on a bus destination display – Normandy. [In Surrey, between Guildford and Aldershot.]

David Oldfield

09/02/12 – 05:52

ECW quality – as a little lad I always had to sit down hard about three times before I was satisfied that I had got my money’s worth out of the satisfying “wheesh” that you got from standard ECW seats with the standard green and red criss-cross pattern moquette.

Stephen Ford

09/02/12 – 05:53

To my mind just about everything ECW produced looked just right – until the ‘sliced-off-to-length-on-a-conveyor-belt’ RE bus, and the early LH spoilt their reputation somewhat. They always managed to achieve the perfect balance of understated elegance and practicality.
I also particularly liked the appearance of the lowbridge KS (in spite of its awkwardness from a passenger’s and conductor’s point of view), but it would have to have a Bristol engine for me. I know what Stephen means though about the lowbridge KSW – its extra width emphasised its squatness. Not bad though.
One of my ECW favourites was always the LS coach. Just look at old photos depicting these on coach parks in their dignified, well maintained BTC liveries, parked alongside all the other 1950’s monstrosities and ‘chromeblazers’. (I speak purely from a design point of view, not their driveability, which may well have been a little different).

John Stringer

09/02/12 – 14:09

Couldn’t agree more about the Bristol engine, John, but even the RE bus body could look good in the right livery. [I’m thinking of the East Midland DP versions in pre NBC cream with maroon stripes.]
I have nothing but respect for (especially the 6 cylinder) Gardner engines – in just about all applications; but I still prefer the Bristol powered (and indeed the Leyland powered) Bristols on offer at different times in the company’s history.

David Oldfield

09/02/12 – 14:10

You raise a very interesting point, John S, when you say ‘it would have to have a Bristol engine for me’. My own experience of Bristols is really limited to the comparison between the Bristol engine and the 5LW, and I’m sure everyone would agree with your conclusion in that comparison. On the other hand, I later developed a great admiration for the 6LW in Guy chassis, (and the 6LX too, but that really post dated the K series Bristols). I’d be grateful for the views of other correspondents with experience of both the Bristol engine and the 6LW in Bristol Ks.

Roy Burke

11/02/12 – 07:28

I agree with John Stringer about ECW LS coaches looking dignified. I think my top three coaches for being eye catching without being flash would be, ECW LS in United green and cream, the centre entrance Burlingham Seagull in Yelloway livery, and the Weymann Fanfare in a photo finish between BET cream and maroon and Southdown green

Ronnie Hoye

11/02/12 – 07:28

On the subject of destination blinds, Bradford C T ran buses to Tong Cemetery and also to Shelf. (Their operating territory also included Idle, famed for its Idle Working Men’s Club). Sandy Lane could also be seen on the front of a BCT bus – not sure who she was, but may have been related to Lucy Hall seen on some of West Yorkshire’s Bradford-based vehicles. Her distant cousin Hazel Grove, could be seen over in Stockport. (West Yorkshire and BCT could also take you to Dick Hudson’s if you so wished). East Yorkshire had the quaintly-named North Cave, and West Riding had buses stating “Hall Green”, which pre-NBC, most of them were, give or take the cream band…..

Brendan Smith

11/02/12 – 09:23

Ronnie, I would tend to agree with you on all three counts – but what about Sheffield’s cream and blue Fanfares?

David Oldfield

11/02/12 – 11:47

To add to Roys’ comments, I would like to contribute my own experience of the Bristol KS. I have always regarded the KSW6G as the “cream” of the marque. The Gardner 6LW was slightly larger in engine capacity at 8.4 litres compared to the Bristol AVW engine at 8.1 litres so consequently was more responsive and in my view gave a better ride. I would like to know what drivers liked with the Bristol KSW.
I was fortunate enough to ride on both West Yorkshire KSW6Gs and KSW6Bs on a regular basis as these were rostered as School Specials each weekday morning. These were halcyon days in 1954 which I treasure and I was always thrilled when KSW6G 855 or 856 appeared. However KSW6Bs 853 and 854 were also good, as all the LWR registered buses (845 to 864) had rear platform doors, so I felt superior on my school special to other Bristol KSW6Bs on normal services with open platforms.
Perhaps this was a case of bus snobbery but perhaps excused when you are young.

Richard Fieldhouse

11/02/12 – 15:12

David, you’re right about Sheffields livery being smart, but I think the destination blinds on the Fanfares made then look too much like a bus and just took the edge off them. As to the debate about Bristol engines, I can’t comment on that as Northern Group being a BET company we didn’t have any, however, we did have quite a lot of Guy’s with the Gardner 5LW, and later we had Daimler Fleetlines with the 6LX, and both were virtually indestructible. As a foot note, we had both, and for my money the Fleetline was a far superior vehicle to the Atlantean, one bad thing with the Gardner, or to be more accurate, the garage staff, was that they would check the oil level when the bus came back to the garage at the end of it’s shift and the engine was still hot, the less intelligent ones would then put about a gallon of oil in and complain about the amount of oil that Gardners used, the more experienced garage hands would check the level when the engine was cold and the oil had had time to settle

Ronnie Hoye

11/02/12 – 15:12

As one who has driven a preserved KSW5G (with platform doors) for nearly thirty years I would say that the 5LW is not really powerful enough for the vehicle. Although it will climb a mountain it just takes so long to do it. The problem is made worse by the maximum revs being governed so tightly. This means that on ascending a hill you cannot change from fourth to third until the speed drops to 20mph by which time too much momentum has been lost. The other aspect of this is that I’m never sure what to do at a roundabout, do I chug round at 21mph in fourth or use maximum revs in third at 22mph ? I suppose that there weren’t many roundabouts in existence when it was designed.
One very positive thing about the KSW is the lack of corrosion on the chassis or the alloy frame of the ECW body after almost 59 years on the road. Having seen the amount of rebuilding that some enthusiasts have had to do on their vehicles, we are very grateful for that.

Nigel Turner

11/02/12 – 16:05

Point taken, Ronnie, and I would agree the Fleetline was superior to the PDR1 Atlantean – but the AN68 was a different story.

David Oldfield

11/02/12 – 17:17

Todmorden buses ran (and still run) to Portsmouth, a 15 minute journey, although not many terminate there now.
I’ve read about Manchester buses showing “fog on route” and wondered what it was for – was it to warn drivers going the other way?

Geoff Kerr

12/02/12 – 07:13

I worked as a Schedules Clerk for SELNEC Central at Frederick Road for an all too brief spell in the early 1970’s. I seem to recall being told that fog around the docks area could be really severe and wreak havoc with timekeeping, and that ‘FOG’ (on the via blinds of ex-Manchester buses) was just to indicate to would be passengers the reason for late running.

John Stringer

12/02/12 – 07:22

Gentlemen..having lived in Bristol and for many years close to the Bristol works, I grew up thinking all buses were as good as “ours” and the ECW bodies were normal. In those days my travels to other areas were mainly, Dawlish and Devon General, South Wales and so Rhondda, Newport, Red & White and up to London for the joys of London Transport. Whilst I loved seeing something different, even then I appreciated the outstanding construction of the KSW and later LD/Lodekka plus all the other different Bristol variants. I clearly remember the joy of finding out when a brand new bus was due out and recall riding on KSW’s fresh from the works.
Now, some 54 years later, on Bristol Bus Running Day held each August, I can actually stand at the same bus stop (now 100 yards further up the road due to “improvements”) and catch one of the batch of KSW’s that I caught each night to come home from school. Whether any of the preserved vehicles are one of those I caught on the No.1 Cribbs Causeway route I do not know but they are identical and so I can recreate that exact journey on a KSW/ECW that looks, feels and sounds just like those years ago.

Richard Leaman

12/02/12 – 11:00

Thank you, gentlemen – especially Richard F, Ronnie and Nigel – for your illuminating comments. Fascinating. West Yorkshire didn’t have many 6LW-engined Bristol Ks, (ten, I think?), and I never really came across them in York. I totally understand Nigel’s opinion of the 5LW; great engine, quite indestructible, utterly dependable, but, by the 1950’s its limitations in powering heavier vehicles – not just Bristols, of course – was making it a retrograde choice, even though a few BET companies persisted with it.
Ronnie’s and David’s comments comparing the Fleetline with early Atlanteans struck a note with me, too. My views exactly! In his posting of a PMT PDR1, Michael Crofts makes the point that the Atlantean easily out-performed the Fleetline. True, but from a management point of view, early Atlanteans could have worryingly high running costs. Nigel’s ‘dilemma’ about gear choice for roundabouts in the KSW5G reminded me of one particular instance of that at Chatham. In a Guy Arab, you knew that you had to slow to 20 mph at the top of Chatham Hill in order to be able to select 3rd gear; bad drivers could, however, abuse the Atlantean pneumo-cyclic gearbox by changing at higher speeds part way down. I have seen a hole in a cylinder block that I could put my fist in, caused by this practice.
Then there was the issue of centrifugal clutches requiring conversion, fuel and oil consumption, and maintenance costs generally. No wonder to me that M&D changed to Fleetlines.

Roy Burke

13/02/12 – 07:36

For more on Manchester fog, see my article at this link.

Peter Williamson

13/02/12 – 15:48

May I venture another view on Bristol/ECW? In my youth, I was not a regular user of ex Tilling companies like West Yorkshire. When I did have contact with them, they seemed to be another version of British Railways: boring conformity in liveries and bus styles- red or green with no attempt at modern graphics in fleet names. The Lodekka seemed to be an old rather quirky design, again with a depressing uniformity wherever you went: drivers looked uncomfortable in that “half-decker” cab and they could sound like tractors (when we did live on a WY bus route eventually, the electrics played havoc with our TV/Radio reception). Compare this with Sheffield- say- dirt-defying livery, modern fleet name, early introduction of “new generation” buses & variety- even a few Bristols. Give me a Roe-bodied Daimler CVG6 anytime!

Joe

14/02/12 – 07:36

I think you’re being a bit harsh, Joe, but surely you mean a Roe bodied AEC – especially in Sheffield!!!???

David Oldfield

18/02/12 – 07:08

Bristols are definitely the best buses – but I’m glad my first contribution has generated so much discussion on so many points.

Ken Jones

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

23/02/12 – 07:16

To add to the destination screen saga Southdown showed High and Over on the 126 Eastbourne to Seaford route. My abiding memory of ECW bodies is of M&D’s Bristol L6A’s they seemed to have such deep plush upholstery, extremely comfortable. I made frequent journeys on the 35 route which ran from Ore (another odd destination) to Cooden Beach which had two low bridges. The LS coach was an elegant design especially those with curved glass in the front corners, the bus bodies were also attractive much more so in both cases than the later MW’s. Unfortunately my driving experience was limited to the later and lesser types VR, RE, LH the RE being the best of those. Being born and bred in Sussex guess whose colours I prefer on the Weymann Fanfare.

Diesel Dave

Southern Vectis – Bristol KS5G – HDL 264 – 750

Southern Vectis - Bristol KS5G - HDL 264 - 750

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1951
Bristol KS5G
ECW L27/28R

New to Southern Vectis in 1951 with an Isle of Wight registration a Bristol KS5G with an ECW lowbridge body and was withdrawn by them in 1967. Sold on to dealer W Norths (PV) Limited, Sherburn-in-Elmet in May 1967 it then went to Jameson of Sunderland the following month. It was later purchased by Carneys Coaches of Sunderland in October 1967 and was used on shipyard contracts transporting workers between Wearside and Teesside, it was also used to take local Scout groups on holidays. It remained in its original Southern Vectis livery a dark shade of Green with a white band all through its working life. In November 1968 Carneys disposed of it to a dealer, unfortunately from that point on I have no further history.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Alan Coulson

United Automobile – Bristol KSW6B – VHN 851 – H51

United Automobile Bristol KSW6B

United Automobile Services
1954
Bristol KSW6B
ECW H32/28R

In this shot you can certainly see the difference in height between this highbridge KS and the height of the Lodekka both of which had the centre isle seating plan. The KS series succeeded the K series in 1950 when body length was increased from 26ft to 27ft, the extra foot was split equally between the bonnet length and the saloon. The reason for the extra 6in on the bonnet length was so the Gardner 6LW 8.4 litre diesel engine could be fitted without any modification being needed which was the case with the K series. Main production did not last very long as in 1953 the Lodekka went into production but I have read that the last KS was actually delivered in 1957. The “W” in the coding stood for wide meaning the body width was 8ft instead of 7ft 6in, there seems to be two schools of thought what the “S” stood for:
(a) “Short” as if Bristol knew that a longer chassis would be allowed a few years later and “L” would be used to differentiate.
(b) “Standard” being that the bonnet was of a standard length to allow installation of all engine variants.
There is also the belief that all of the KS series were bodied by ECW (Eastern Coach Works).

I had been under the impression, that the “S” stood for “stretched” to 27′ Source: “The Pocket Encyclopaedia of Buses & Trolleybuses since 1945”, London, Blandford Press, 1968 p.115

David Cape

I was on a KSW at a rally today and overheard an apparently knowledgeable chap saying that the S indicated short, as opposed to KL which was going to be a 30-foot export model until Bristol’s government lords and masters prevented them from building for export at all.
However, the apparently knowledgeable chap thought we were on a KS, not a KSW, so the usual pinch of salt applies.

Peter Williamson

The Bristol KS was introduced following an increase in permitted length for double deckers from 26ft to 27ft in mid-1950. Later that year, the maximum permitted width for all buses was increased from 7ft-6ins to 8ft. and Bristol responded with the KSW. (The ‘S’ apparently stood for ‘Standard’ or ‘Short’ length chassis, with the ‘W’ predictably denoting ‘Wide’). At that time the bus industry had hoped for an increase in length to 30ft for all buses, but in the event this was limited to single deckers. Bristol had envisaged extending the K type to 30ft long (KL/KLW) but this did not materialise as a result. When legislation did allow for 30ft double deckers in 1956, the Lodekka was in its ascendancy and so no KL/KLWs were built.
ECW designed a 4-bay body for the KS-series and these could also be identified by the stepped panel below the windscreen. Although ECW bodied most of the KS-series chassis, Rotherham Corporation received six KS6Bs in 1950, fitted with East Lancashire bodies built in Bridlington. Rotherham was the only operator outside the Tilling Group to operate the KS as far as I am aware – these being ordered before the cut-off point following nationalisation of Bristol and ECW.
Bristol/ECW were not allowed to supply vehicles to concerns outside the British Transport Commission, following nationalisation by the Labour government in 1948. The ban was to appease the Conservative opposition and private sector manufacturers, and to prevent what they claimed would be unfair competition. (A clause was included to this effect in the 1947 Transport Act as a result). Restrictions on ECW’s output were also imposed, even within the BTC empire itself. Had this not been the case maybe ECW would have bodied some of London’s RTs.
The last KS (a KS6G) was delivered to Brighton, Hove and District in 1957, and the last KSW (a KSW6G) was delivered to Bristol Omnibus Company the same year.

Brendan Smith

Some 7ft 6in KS chassis received 8ft wide KSW bodies. Eastern Counties had quite a few, and a former ECOC driver reckoned in conversation that they needed to be driven rather gently when heavily laden, as they tended to lean alarmingly on bends.

Stephen Ford

Fascinating stuff indeed Brendan and I seem to recall that, nearer home, West Yorkshire had a few L and K type chassis with 8ft wide bodies.  In my view this is a very dubious practice especially with lowbridge double deckers which are prone to “nearside leaning” at the best of times.

Chris Youhill

I tend to agree with you Chris. Fitting bodies six inches wider than originally intended for the chassis does not sound unreasonable in theory. However, in practice as you say it would lead to increased body roll when cornering. You’re comment about “nearside leaning” with lowbridge buses was interesting, and something I’d not previously given much thought to. To the uninitiated it must have been quite entertaining going around a tight right-hander at times, and things would no doubt liven up even more as the leaf springs became tired with age!

Brendan Smith

The last ‘K’ type Chassis built was indeed delivered in 1957. It was actually a ‘KS6G’ supplied to the ‘Brighton Hove & District Omnibus Company’ fleet number 500 and registered ‘MPM 500’. The reason for the reversion to 7’6″ Bodies was for two way operation in the narrow St. James’s Street in the heart of Kemptown, Brighton. St. James’s Street is nowadays one-way (eastbound). BH & D was one of the last former Tilling companies to take the ‘Lodekka’ which it did so in 1959, taking eight ‘LDS6B’ the fore-runner of the ‘FS’ Chassis with the recently introduced Bristol BVW Engine.

John

12/04/14 – 08:12

1 National Travel, Manchester United Driver from Scarborough who had purchased/preserved a 1930’s (?) Bristol half cab which he wanted to be transported in at his funeral! Memory is a bit vague as to whether the bus was rebodied etc. but I think it was a JOG type Bristol. Anyone got any ideas?

Pete Bradshaw

12/04/14 – 18:29

This would be Charlie Bullock, Pete. See the link www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/news/

John Darwent

12/04/14 – 18:30

The United driver that Pete Bradshaw is thinking of was Charlie Bullock who owned a 1940 K5G, FHN 923, which have been converted to a recovery truck. His final journey to Scarborough crematorium in August 2012 at the age of 97 was indeed made on that vehicle.

Nigel Turner

15/04/14 – 18:09

Charlie’s procession picture here www.newsrt.co.uk/news/bus-convoy-for-charlie-s-final-ride

John Darwent

Samuel Ledgard – Bristol K6A – GHN 840


Photograph from The late Robert F Mack collection.

Samuel Ledgard
1945
Bristol K6A
ECW L27/26R

As featured in “An Arresting Experience” by Chris Youhill on the “articles” page here we have the vehicle in question. This vehicle was ex-United Automobile Services fleet number BAL 8 new to them in 1945 acquired by Samuel Ledgard in 1959 and served a further six years before being withdrawn from service in 1965.  
The Bristol K series was first produced in 1937 and had the high bonnet line as in the shot above until 1946, when the more familiar lower bonnet line was introduced as in the shot to the right.
The above vehicle was one of 251 built after the recommencement of production in 1944 and were the wartime W1 and W2 series all of which had the AEC 7·7 litre six cylinder diesel engine hence the K6A code. As from 1946 the K series was also available with the Gardner 5LW and Bristols first diesel engine the AVW which was a 8·1 litre six cylinder unit. I am not sure what AVW and its successor the BVW stood for, I could guess that the V stood for vertical, if you know please leave a comment. The K series carried on in production until 1950 with over 3000 being built until the one foot longer KS version was introduced.

Photograph contributed by Chris Youhill

Am I right in believing that the difference in bonnet height is the post war “invention” of dropped front axles- and who thought of it first?

Joe

Sorry Joe but, as far as I can glean from publications on the Bristol “K” series, there is no difference at all in the front axles of the low and high radiator “K”s. Dropped front axles were virtually standard on all buses long before WW2. As you say, the apparent dramatic lowering of the radiators and bonnets would suggest some major structural redesign but seemingly not so – the improved appearance must have been achieved by cleverly reducing the clearance above the engine and by a pleasing new radiator design and mountings.

Chris Youhill

As an AEC man, it always struck me that the perfect bonnet line, as aspired to and achieved by London Transport in the RT, was only achieved in the provinces on the post-war Bristols and Guy Arabs.

David Oldfield

And Crossleys, surely?

Peter Williamson

As I signed off the last comment, a Manchester Crossley popped up on a picture and I thought……..and Crossleys!

David Oldfield

There cannot have been any structural difference in the “high” and “low” radiator K chassis, since after the war, many pre-war and wartime utility Bristols were rebodied,and the exercise frequently involved fitting the low radiator to modernize their appearance. Preserved West Yorkshire KDG 26 is a case in point.

David Jones

The ‘low’ radiator is a bit of a trick. The bottom of the working bit of the low radiator is no lower than the high version. If you examine one you will find that the bottom 4 or 5 inches of the low radiator is just decorative. I think I’m right in saying the higher top of the ‘high’ radiator is simply a result of the fact that petrol engines were a lot taller than diesels. When diesels replaced petrol from mid-1930’s there was a lot of fresh air under the bonnet. Hence the line of the bonnet was lowered and with it the top of the radiator.

Bristol’s parts code. The last letter refers to what it is – thus ‘W’ is an engine. The first engine would have been an ‘AW’. In the early 1930’s the ‘JW’ and ‘NW’ were respectively 6-cyl and 4-cyl petrol engines. Once they got to ‘ZW’ then they started again with ‘AAW’ an awful lot of the codes must have been either minor variants or omitted or design studies which were never built. I have no idea how they got as far as ‘AVW’ but that is how the code was arrived at.

Peter Cook

Bristol AVW. the “V” stands for Vertical, and the “W” stands for Water-cooled. The “A” & “B” were the series. AVW’s had dry liners, by far more reliable, and the BVW’s had wet liners, and known for self-destructing, more so when cooled by the diabolical Cave-Brown-Cave system

EE59051

Thanks to the enigmatic EE59051 for his comments. I have a enormous soft spot for Bristol engined Bristols, but it is interesting to note that they seemed to have similar problems to AEC a propos wet liner and dry liner engines.

David Oldfield

Thanks to EE59051 for that very justified comment on the dreadful Cave-Brown-Cave system. In the first place its ugly radiator apertures completely disfigured the vehicles to which it was fitted. More importantly it was absolutely dangerous to drivers in the event of any leakage, especially at full speed, and even at the tiny WYRCC depot at Ilkley there were instances of scalding in the one year that I worked there.

Chris Youhill

I’ve often wondered why companies persevered with the Cave-Brown-Cave system as long as they did, as it never quite seemed to work as the inventor intended. My grandma (a very forgiving soul) would often complain on her family visits, about the freezing cold journeys she had endured from Bingley to Harrogate. The culprits were usually observed to be CBC ‘heated’ Lodekkas. My brother and I would empathise as we often suffered the same discomfort when we visited her, travelling on the same type of bus.
Airlocks seemed to be the main culprit, and could give rise to the strange phenomenon of passengers complaining of how cold their bus was, whilst at the same time said bus was observed boiling away merrily at the front end!
As a West Yorkshire Central Works apprentice, I spent three months working at Grove Park depot, and if a Lodekka was taken out of service as a result of boiling, it was just parked up in the depot and allowed to cool down. It was then topped up with water, whilst someone else worked the engine to try and circulate it around the system. All being well, it would then be deemed ready for action again. The Lodekka water filler cap was still in its original position just above where the traditional radiator would have been. However, as the CBC radiators were set several feet higher on the top deck, many of us thought this to be the cause of the water circulation problems.
Although the BVW engine had its faults – and with hindsight maybe Bristol might have been better staying with dry liners – later versions were generally viewed by West Yorkshire as being decent workhorses. The bottom-end seemed pretty bullet-proof, with many of our examples covering 300,000 miles or more between overhauls, without any crankshaft or bearing problems.

Brendan Smith

Cave-Brown-Cave heating is within my experience, just, but what type of heating was evidenced by a round chrome’y-grill’y protrusion from the front downstairs bulkhead of some buses and coaches and did the system do upstairs, too?

Chris Hebbron

Ah- Memory Lane again: those funny round “heaters” (Clayton Dewandre?- do I imagine that?) on Yorkshire Traction Leylands. Did they ever give off any heat…? Was there a box too under a seat upstairs? They were presumably like the car heaters of the day- a pipe off the cooling system?

Joe

You’re right about the make, Joe. I don’t think that their output was very inspiring, from my limited experience.

Chris Hebbron

The large round heaters with mesh fronts and a chrome “hood” were indeed made by Clayton Dewandre Limited of Titanic Works, Lincoln. They had an electric expulsion fan to blow out the warm air, and warm it certainly was providing that the water circulation was in order, and that the engine was running at a reasonably high temperature. The “boxes under the seats” were usually the excellent and efficient “KL” models, which also had a powerful electric fan. Wiring in both types was usually arranged so that the fans either stopped or slowed while the engines were ticking over at stops. When Samuel Ledgard acquired second hand buses in the later years of the Company it was the practice to install “KL” boxes in both saloons – normally two downstairs and one at the front of the top deck. All of these “retro fitted” heaters were highly efficient and were much appreciated by passengers and conductors alike. In particular I remember the ex Exeter Daimler CVD6/Brush models, where I’ve known passengers plead for them to be turned off in mid Winter – JFJ 55 being the hottest – courtesy of the hot running Daimler engines.

Chris Youhill

Clayton Dewandre indeed, but only for those who sat inside. Sheffield’s first upstairs heating was the horrendously noisy system on 1325 – 1349 (Regent V/Roe).

David Oldfield

I like your ‘inside’ and ‘upstairs’, David. Reminds me when I was young, after the war, there were still a lot of older conductors who shouted at boarding passengers, ‘Plenty of room outside’ even though open-top buses were long gone!

Chris Hebbron

Its an absolute delight reading all these posts about Sammy Ledgard. My memories go back to before Sammy died, and the “exors” were formed. In many ways, this was a more interesting period as the fleet had more “corporate” character, with its “standard” Leylands going way back. This is all in the days before grey came into the livery. Many had Green roofs.
It was certainly an enthusiasts paradise after 1953 with the amazing variety of second hand purchases, but I think my most precious Sammy memory is the Butlers scrapyard just below the “Fox and Hounds” near Menston. In 1953/4, and for some time after, this was full of withdrawn Ledgard buses, some going back to the 1920s. They had been stored at Armley for years, Sammy never disposing of “owt” which might come in useful!

John Whitaker

29/03/11 – 07:35

I am pretty sure that the first Sheffield buses delivered with underseat heaters in the top deck were the ECW bodied PD2s of 1957 (1152/3 and 1292-1294). I recall travelling on the 12 to Chesterfield on one when virtually new and being most disappointed that the noise from the heater drowned out the note of the O.600 engine.

Ian Wild

29/03/11 – 13:22

Significant that they were JOC buses. I never remember them on the 12, nor do I remember 1152/3 without doors. Having never travelled on any of these buses, I bow to your superior knowledge.

David Oldfield

29/03/11 – 13:30

I was most interested in John Whitaker’s nostalgia about the Butler scrapyard at Eller Ghyll, Menston where a large number of Ledgard vehicles were dismantled after years of storage. It was a place where mixed feelings were always aroused – revelling in the range of vehicles which languished there, and yet incredibly sad at the same time.

3-in_scrap

Here is one of my early snapshots (if only digital had been around !!). The larger vehicle is one of the ex B & B Leyland Lion LT1/Burlingham pair, KW 7944/5. No prizes for identifying the other two buses – they are 40% of the fleet of five heroic little Bedford OWBs which served so valiantly at the Yeadon (Moorfield) depot. It is impossible for those unfamiliar with the territory to imagine how much heavy work those little champions handled on two of the most intense and heavily patronised routes – and of necessity overloading was common which made their performance even more remarkable and creditable. I’ve driven OB coaches myself and never failed to marvel at how these tough little classics performed – unashamedly noisily while “getting up to speed” in the first three gears and then with dignified very quiet tones in “top.” I still can’t believe how 28hp petrol engines (many private cars today have greater capacity and technology) could produce such splendid results under heavy pressure. What a crying shame that more souvenirs were not saved from these vehicles as I’m quite sure that Butler’s would have been amenable to the cause. The final sad insult to the little Bedfords was to have to languish there in full view of their successors, as their former lifetime route was less than a hundred yards away on the road above !!

Chris Youhill

30/03/11 – 06:07

1294 and 1295 (the first of the three contemporary Roe bodied PD2/20) were allocated to Leadmill Road Depot hence 1294 turning up frequently on the 12 to Chesterfield. I don’t remember the Roe trio (1295-1297) being delivered with saloon heaters. There was a restricted height bridge at Dronfield on service 12 and not all buses could be used on the Chesterfield service. I suspect the ECW bodies were of slightly lower overall height than the Roe bodies on the similar chassis as I never remember seeing 1295 on the 12 although the standard vehicles for the route at that time were Roe bodied Regent III 1251-1282. Different chassis make, slightly lower build?

Ian Wild

30/03/14 – 12:54

Imagine an engine block in profile and standing next to it a tall radiator. Hot water rising from the engine passes thru a large hose to the top of the radiator. Movement air passing thru the radiator cools the water which slowly sinks returning via the bottom hose to the engine block whence it rises again. This is the simple thermo-syphon system with the of necessity tall radiator which was fitted to most pre-war vehicles. It had many disadvantages. Big improvements were made. At atmospheric pressure water boils off so the cooling system was pressurised to raise the boiling temperature. A cooling fan was fitted to draw air through the radiator even whilst the vehicle was stationary. A thermostat controlled the temperature of the cylinder head. Most importantly, an impeller pump was fitted to increase the cooling water circulation speed thus vastly increasing cooling efficiency. Efficient radiators could be made much smaller and lower. This was a boon to the bodywork designers wishing to offer attractive lower profiles. This is the reason why lower outlines became possible. It has nothing to do with the engine which can be tilted or even, as in the Commer TS3 design, laid flat.

Peter Woods

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

05/02/16 – 06:33

Back to radiator height, I believe on the high radiator access for the crank handle was below the radiators bottom tank, whereas on the low radiator everything was lower because it was possible for the shaft of the crank handle to pass between the radiators tubes. This was not a new arrangement as Tilling Stevens B10s of the late 20s had this style of radiator. Bonnet height was often determined by whether air filters were fitted above the engine.

Bob Cooper

West Yorkshire – Bristol K5G – OWT 201 – YDG 88


Copyright Bob Gell

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1954
Bristol K5G 
ECW H28/28R

A fine vehicle indeed, but quite sad in some ways. This typical ex-Tilling Group Bristol K5G is spending its final days on loan to Yorkshire Woollen District, after its parent company (York-West Yorkshire) had lost its Tilling identity to the National Bus Company.

Eleven Bristol K5Gs were added to the York – West Yorkshire fleet in 1939, being numbered Y395-9/Y701-6, and registered DWU 133-7/994-9, (706 is seen to the right here).
They gave sterling service, and will always be remembered by West Yorkshire fans as a contrast to the dominance of the post war style in the fleet, as they lasted in original form until 1954/5.
In 1954/5, they were taken out of service, and were to re-emerge with handsome new 4 bay ECW bodies as seen here. New chassis frames were used, but the running units were fully overhauled and re-fitted. Because new chassis frames were fitted, the rebuilt vehicles were re-registered OWT 195-205.
To cover their temporary absence, 3 most interesting vehicles were purchased from Brighton, Hove and District, and these would merit a post in themselves! They were 1931/2 AEC “Regents” which had “Gardner 5s”, and 1944 ECW highbridge bodies to the post war profile, being quite similar to the prototype body built the same year on a K5G for the Tilling Group. A ride on one of these vehicles was like being at a symphony concert! – melodies and harmonies from the gearbox and engine were beyond description, but a delight nevertheless. One could perhaps walk quicker than the top speed of these veterans, which were numbered ADG 1-3 in the new 1954 system!
To return to our rebuilt K5Gs, they re-entered service with YDG numbers in the new system mentioned above, and settled down to give another fine spell of service, before succumbing to the inevitable FS type Lodekka, and others.
The new numbers were YDG 82-92 and YDG 88 is seen in our main photograph above, which was taken by Bob at Dewsbury bus station in July 1969.
York-West Yorkshire was a truly wonderful fleet, and how lucky we West Yorkshire enthusiasts were to have these two “side fleets” of Keighley , and York, which both had their own character and contrast to the main fleet. Keighley, and the main fleet always used lowbridge double deckers, whereas York used the highbridge layout, and the flat terrain was ideal for the K5G. I can still hear them chugging sedately round that beautiful old city!
As always, when nostalgia kicks in, it is really difficult to grasp the passage of time, it now being well over 40 years since the demise of these buses. York never seems (quite) the same place these days, without the super old red and cream buses which were part of the character of the place!

Photograph Bob Gell, insert shot S J N White with copy by John Whitaker

Full lists of Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.

13/03/11 – 10:38

Thank you, thank you, John, for your wonderful write-up that so faithfully reflects the spirit of the York-West Yorkshire fleet of my childhood and youth. I was brought up with the 1939 K5Gs; the photo of 706, with its original ‘bible’, (or ‘flap-board’), indicator is shown on route 6, regularly operated with these vehicles, as was service 2 between Stuart Road and Bur Dyke Avenue. I remember so well as a small boy waiting at our local bus stop with my mother, telling her the service number of the next bus to arrive – you could hear it before you saw it – by the sound of the engine. Sometimes you could even tell individual vehicles from their distinctive engine notes. The rebodying exercise resulted in these buses having a remarkable total life of almost 30 years with Y-WY. It did produce the cynical response amongst some York residents, however, that re-registering them was a bit of a con trick by the Joint Undertaking to disguise the vehicles’ true age.
In service the rebuilt vehicles tended, to be truthful, to lack performance, (were the new bodies heavier?), even on York’s relatively flat terrain. Y-WY had a policy of allocating Bristol and Gardner engined buses to different routes, but some routes might have either. I worked for Y-WY as a conductor in 1962 and 1963, and getting a YDG rather than a YDB or YDX was a sign that you could well end up running late at peak times.
You also mention the famous ADGs. I never came across them because my father worked abroad during their entire time with Y-WY, but I remember a driver on the Fulford Rota – they were mainly used on the 4/4A route – demonstrating to me in graphic and most amusing detail that they were the most unpleasant and unrewarding vehicles he ever drove. He said the pedals were very high while the gear lever was positioned low down and behind the driver, so that all gear changes required an act of contortion. He reckoned – as you say, ADGs were not noticeably quick – that a change from third to second was a lottery to be avoided at all costs, and claimed, (of course drivers were not always accurate in their interpretations of management decisions), that the reason the ADGs were usually allocated to the Fulford Rota was to reduce that eventuality by avoiding Holgate Hill.
Incidentally, they were never actually owned by Y-WY, despite having the name on the side, but were hired from WY.
Finally, the colour picture of YDG88 shows it with its later, T-shaped destination indicator. Originally, it had the full three-section indicator, which had five different blinds to set. When you were running late on Service 3/11, changing from 11A back to 3 at the terminus was a drag, especially if it was your last trip before being relieved and you had an impatient driver.
Thank you again, John. Happy days, indeed!

Roy Burke

13/03/11 – 10:46

I was very interested to see the photograph of West Yorkshire OWT 281. These were along with others initially hired from West Yorkshire and then taken in to the Yorkshire Woollen fleet during a vehicle shortage. I remember conducting these buses.

Philip Carlton

14/03/11 – 07:17

John W has said some wonderful things about York West Yorkshire and brought back many fond memories of my visits to York in the early fifties. West Yorkshire Road Car was in my view a quality ex Tilling Company and always produced some excellent rebuilt pre-war Bristol K5G buses from their Harrogate Works. The final York K5Gs were their last re-bodies to appear and were based again on a solid Bristol engineering and a Gardner 5LW.

Richard Fieldhouse

14/03/11 – 07:22

Roy’s last paragraph reminds me of the ultimate “pantomime” concerning the changing of multiple destination displays. When I was a West Yorkshire conductor at Ilkley we had a route to Heber’s Ghyll – five minutes each way and no recovery (standing) time. Single deckers were always used and had three piece displays front and rear, and always went straight onto other routes with differing information.

Chris Youhill

14/03/11 – 13:17

I am really pleased Roy, that you enjoyed the post about what are obviously favourite buses to us both! Thanks also for the ADG anecdotes.
I believe the OWT rebodies would be less lively than the originals, as they would, as you suggest, be heavier.
There really was something special and “ponderous” about YWY which was absolutely fascinating. We lived in Bradford, but passed through regularly on the way to Bridlington, and our weekend/holiday tram bungalow at Skipsea. Lucky you, living there. You must have plenty of WY experience to share with us!

John Whitaker

16/03/11 – 11:14

As you say, John, I had lots of pleasant and amusing experiences with York-West Yorkshire, which I’d happily share, except that much the same could be said of anyone who’s worked as a conductor with any operator. Two examples: Chris has shared his recollection of changing a blind in a hurry. Great fun, but I bet there are many readers of this site who have had the unnerving experience of changing a front blind as the driver reversed into a side road. I’ve done that many times, but I used to draw the line at the driver pulling forward again while I was still clinging on although jumping off as the driver did so was a real recipe for trouble!
Also, while I agree with you wholeheartedly about missing the red and cream buses, the atmosphere of York City itself has changed a great deal in the last half century; not for the better in my view, but that’s life. I recall, incidentally, a passenger who must then have been about the same age we are now telling me he remembered when the colour of the City’s buses was blue, so…..

Roy Burke

16/03/11 – 14:18

Hi Roy. I cannot remember the blue buses in York, but I do know what you mean!.
I was in York two Saturdays ago for a railway Museum visit, and I must admit it was a little too “Touristy” for my taste these days. Things change. Maybe we could share our photo collections a bit, as we probably both have gaps. Just a thought, and good to share happy memories with another enthusiast.

John Whitaker

23/03/11 – 17:55

As a boy the first time I really took any notice of buses was on a holiday to Bournemouth (late 60’s), looking out for KSW’s without a dented front or rear dome (there weren’t many) I thought the Green and Cream livery on the Hants and Dorset buses very smart until I noticed a Red and Cream Lodekka FLF belonging to Wilts and Dorset, I liked the squarer profile of the K to the more rounded Lodekka. My dad couldn’t understand why we had to go past the bus station each day, a great holiday and buses.

Roger Broughton

24/03/11 – 06:39

Hi, has anyone out there a West Yorkshire fleet list that I could have a copy of, as my own list is a very sketchy one?

Keith Easton

24/03/11 – 18:25

Hi Keith
Re. WYRC fleet list. I have the one in the old TPC book by Keith Jenkinson, but it is a bit sketchy, with no withdrawal dates. I could transcribe this over time, into acceptable format and put it forward for inclusion in the new fleet list section. There is, however, both a PSV Circle list, and a West Yorkshire Information Service (now defunct) list which gives a lot more detail, so before embarking on any such project, does any of our “fraternity” have one of these publications. I am afraid mine disappeared years ago, although I have taken extracts from PSVC one at the Omnibus Soc. archives.
If I go ahead with this, it will need someone else to take over after about 1956, when my interest begins to wane!

John Whitaker

25/03/11 – 08:16

Hi John, Thanks for the offer, but the TPC book is where my somewhat sketchy list came from! I have most details from the 1980’s, and the earlier ones would be most welcome, but perhaps wait until we see what, if anything, materialises. Once again thanks for your offer.

Keith Easton

09/05/11 – 08:11

After reading all the interesting comments above about the York fleet, I seemed to recall that at some point YWY had considered purchasing some second hand KSWs for the fleet. On looking through John F Gill’s fascinating and very informative book ‘York-West Yorkshire Joint Services – 50 Years of Joint Services 1934-1984’ again, this was confirmed. What surprised me though was the lateness of the year – 1967. At this time YWY was ordering new VR and RE buses for its 1968/9 deliveries, to replace the rebuilt K5Gs (including YDG 88 illustrated above) and two of the 1951 KS-types, which according to the book would have left eight YDBs in service, and that the JOC were considering purchasing eight 1954 KSWs from Bristol Omnibus to replace them! However, it was later decided not to pursue the matter, as the cost of bringing the vehicles up to standard would have been uneconomic. (The book states that the only Bristol Omnibus double deckers that fitted the date quoted would have been highbridge KSWs from the PHW/SHW-registered batches). Given the notorious reliability problems with the early VRTs though, maybe the JOC were on the right track after all!

Brendan Smith

10/05/11 – 07:26

I used to travel on United Counties between Derngate and Earls Barton. The routes on A45 were mostly 402 and 404. K6A were normal, but 3 buses had 6 cyl engines 615 662 were 2 of them. in the morning it was 2 L5G single deckers every day. These had an overdrive gear engaged from 4th. it was only usable from about 40mph. occasionally the speed reached nearly 60 on the down hills, but how I wish they had the familiar [to me] Daimler gearboxes. the town buses were so different but i think all had Gardner 5s. I was at Barton turn one day and 4 corporation buses roared past where the K5s struggled.

P Bartlett

10/05/11 – 07:30

Brendan’s point about York-West Yorks looking at Bristol OC K types is interesting given that some of their own would have gone to Yorkshire Woollen in 1969 to a vehicle shortage there!

Chris Hough

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

22/01/12 – 11:38

Having been away from from my computer for a while, I’ve only just seen this excellent posting, which for me – by co-incidence it’s now within a day or two of being exactly 50 years since I began working for York-West Yorkshire – has particular nostalgia. I remember these vehicles very well indeed, and must have worked on YDG88 many, many times.
The re-bodied 1939 K5Gs were probably the most unpopular vehicles in the Y-WY fleet – certainly amongst the crews, and in so far as they took any notice of the bus they were travelling on, with passengers too. As Richard F points out, they were noisy and and rough, both the ride and the engine note. The photo was, I believe, taken in Rougier Street, where the sound of anything pulling away with a full load and a 5LW engine reverberated loudly. Since there would often be an East Yorkshire Leyland passing through at the same time, the comparison was not flattering to Y-WY!
They were also slow, even in comparison with the re-bodied 1938 K5Gs, which I’ve always assumed, (others, better informed, might disabuse me of that notion), was due to their body weight. Some drivers would, for example, use first gear when pulling away from the traffic lights at the junction of Queen Street and Blossom Street with a full load, the only vehicles on which this ever happened. On the question of re-registering, Keith Jenkinson, in his highly informative book, ‘York City Buses’, says that the decision was taken at a meeting of the Joint Committee on 20 July 1954: ‘…as they would appear as “new” buses, it was agreed that they should be re-registered in order to reflect that.’ A popular explanation amongst the crews – I don’t vouch for its truthfulness – was that a City Councillor on the Joint Committee was facing re-election and was keen to get York some ‘new’ buses since there hadn’t been any since February 1952. Giving the vehicles new fleet numbers was just being consistent with new registration numbers.
One point has always baffled me and I’d be grateful for an explanation from someone. Some of these vehicles ended up with Yorkshire Woollen District to cover for that company’s vehicle shortage in, I think, 1969. My query is about the reasons for YWD’s shortage. All BET companies had a vehicle replacement programme, so what caused the shortage?

Roy Burke

West Yorkshire – Bristol K6B – HWW 863 – 774


Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW L27/28R

West Yorkshire 774 (DB 36) Bristol K6B is seen new at Chester Street Bus Station, Bradford on the Ilkley stand in 1950 on the 63 service via Manningham Lane to Shipley, an intermediate place before Ilkley. The service at this time ran every 30 minutes with the alternate bus in the hour running as a 68 service via Canal Road to Shipley and then to Ilkley. Only recently had the 63/68 service been operated by double deckers due to a revision of the route in Ilkley which now avoided a low railway bridge in Ben Rhydding. The Bradford to Ilkley service was previously operated by single decker pre-war Bristol L5Gs and Bristol JO5Gs.
This was a route I used often and loved the challenge to the buses climbing Hollins Hill and also the (A65) road dip under the railway bridge near Burley-in-Wharfedale. This bridge was removed after the line from Burley to Otley closed in March 1965. The road level was then changed so no more excitement at testing the bus suspension.
The Bristol K6B/ECW buses were the workhorses for many BTC fleets during the fifties and sixties and this was certainly the case with West Yorkshire. I can never recall a breakdown and the Bristol K6B was certainly a most reliable type of bus. A lovely feature which I often heard on a still evening at home was the throb across the fields of the Bristol AVW engine caused I think by the fuel governor. Perhaps someone with more expert knowledge of Bristol bus mechanics can explain.
Another interesting feature at Chester Street Bus Station seen on the photograph was the green hut adjacent to the Ilkley stand which served as the Inspectors Office. This hut had also the store racks for the “bible” indicators used on most of the pre-war West Yorkshire buses. This hut was always a fascinating place for a small boy to watch the busy activity of the drivers/conductors collecting or returning these cumbersome indicator boards.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

25/05/11 – 16:52

Dare I be precocious enough Richard to say that this excellent piece was written specially for me ?? – a tongue in cheek remark obviously. This is a route known very well to me as a passenger and, later, as a conductor when I worked at WYRCC’s Ilkley Depot in 1960/1. As you rightly say, the Inspectors’ green hut in Chester Street was a constant hive of activity.
Did you know that Chester Street was actually the public thoroughfare right through the centre of the bus station??, although virtually all motorists assumed that it belonged to The Company and so didn’t dare to use it !! Sometime after the “double decking” of the Ilkley services the hourly 68 was discontinued (apart from a few peak hour trips Monday to Friday) and the half hourly service became entirely 63 via Manningham Lane.
There were actually two adjacent railway bridges over the A65 below Menston and, as you say, it was somewhat terrifying for passengers and drivers on the approach, as it seemed certain that the bus roof would be rudely removed – and the sensation was even worse with Samuel Ledgard’s highbridge vehicles.
I can’t honestly remember the intermediate destination blinds being as commendably detailed as shown here – later editions showed only Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross. The bottom line in this picture is a little blurred but appears also to say Burley Ben Rhydding. Incidentally the Company seemed to think that Bradford residents would not have heard of Ben Rhydding and so the rule was that on leaving Bradford “ILKLEY” would be shown, and upon reaching the area of local knowledge at Burley the display had to be altered to show “BEN RHYDDING.” I’m always blissfully happy to be reminded of those lovely enjoyable days so thank you again.

Chris Youhill

26/05/11 – 07:30

Very interesting comments about Bradford. Whilst I have a good knowledge of the present day city centre, I’m afraid I have no memories of how it was. Would I be correct in thinking that Chester Street Bus Station was taken out of use when the interchange opened? Do any traces of it still exist or has it been completely obliterated? I’ve seen many a photograph taken against the background of the white wall and always thought it looked a very evocative place.

Chris Barker

27/05/11 – 08:35

I’ve no idea, Chris B, about the present status of Chester Street but I’ll certainly have an “on site” look next time I visit the National Media Museum only a couple of hundred yards (or metres nowadays) away.

Chris Youhill

27/05/11 – 08:37

Chester Street closed with the advent of the Interchange. Chester Street is now just a street and is changed totally although some of the buildings on the”West Yorkshire” side still exist

Chris Hough

27/05/11 – 09:35

I fear, Chris Y, that you will be sadly disappointed, although not surprised, at the present state of Chester Street. It is now a busy dual-carriageway – part of a typical inner-city gyratory road system. However, some of the background buildings seen on old bus photos are still recognisable, eg. the roof lights of the old Public Baths in Morley Street (now a Wetherspoons).
On the Hebble side, there’s a new building, but the West Yorkshire loading area now seems to be a car park. The much-rebuilt 1960s Mecca Ballroom multi-storey, seen in latter day photos of the bus station, still dominates the background at the western entrance.

Paul Haywood

29/05/11 – 07:18

Chris B, as Chris H says, Chester Street bus station was closed following the opening of the Interchange in I think, 1977 – the year of The Queen’s Silver Jubilee. Chris Y’s comment about Chester Street being a public thoroughfare is most interesting, as I remember the roadway very well, but must admit would not have dared to use it for the reason outlined by Chris! The bus station spanned an area between Little Horton Lane (opposite the Silver Blades ice rink) and Morley Street (opposite the top end – or rear – of The Alhambra theatre). It was a place of much interest to the enthusiast with West Yorkshire, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, Hebble and Samuel Ledgard vehicles using it. (Am I right in thinking that Ribble also used it for coaches linking Lancashire and Yorkshire?) In the mid-sixties Bradford CT added even more variety with its AEC Regent Vs and Daimler CVG6LXs, following an agreement allowing joint operation of the Bradford – Eldwick – Dick Hudson’s service with West Yorkshire. It seemed strange at first seeing a bright blue ‘Corporation’ bus in what otherwise seemed to be a mainly red ‘Company’ bus station, but Bradfordians are not easily fazed and took it all in their stride! As Paul states, Chester Street still exists, but sadly as yet another stretch of dual carriageway.

Brendan Smith

31/05/11 – 18:49

This piece was written for me too, Chris. What amazing memories it conjures up! Many a time have I boarded the bus for Ilkley at that very spot against the famous green shed.
I knew Chester Street as a lad, right up to leaving Bradford in 1968, and remember the through street so well, and can count 6 operators who used the facility:-
West Yorkshire, Ledgard, Hebble, Yorkshire Woollen, Yorkshire Traction, and Sheffield (C ?).
West Riding also came into Bradford, but from memory, did not use Chester Street.
I always associate older generation Bristols with Gardner “5”s, but the AVW was extremely characterful from a “music” point of view, and made for an extremely fast bus. I can remember “flying” along on the routes out of Bradford, especially past Shipley, and the HWW batch represented, to me, the pinnacle of ECW post war design. Flush interior sides, tubular seats, and metal framing all came together in these vehicles to produce a quality of vehicle not yet bettered, in my view. Superb buses!

John Whitaker

01/06/11 – 07:44

I’m glad there is such affection for the Bristol K (especially the 6B). Many people seem to turn their noses up, calling them boring and bog-standard etc. and I hate to hear it. For sure, you could find them from Lands End (Western National) to Northumberland (United), and Yarmouth (Eastern Counties) to Pwellheli (Crosville)- and a lot of other places and operators in between (take a bow, West Yorkshire). But you will notice that all of the extremities I listed are coastal holiday destinations. For me Bristol K6Bs (and their melodious note in second and third gears, which I could cheerfully listen to for hours) are inextricably associated with happy memories of seaside holidays. (And the sun always shone!)

Stephen Ford

01/06/11 – 07:47

I agree fully John with your commendation of the “HWW” DBs, but their super qualities were suddenly eclipsed for we Ilkley folk when 806 – 809 (DBW1 – 4) arrived – 8 feet wide and with classy white steering wheels. Originally having open platforms (returned later to ECW for doors) they seemed quite simply enormous and spacious and they are a batch from my teenage years which I still hold in great affection.

Chris Youhill

01/06/11 – 07:50

MLL 828_lr

The Chester Street, Bradford thread made me dig out this photo of Ledgard MLL 828 (former RT3518) which clearly shows the through road between the chain fences separating the West Yorkshire stands from “the others”. Unlike most of my photos, this one has the date 14 June 1964 written on it, and it shows the buildings on Little Horton Road being demolished to make way for the Silver Blades Ice Rink (owned by Mecca but not a Ballroom as I mistakenly said in my previous thread.)

Paul Haywood

01/06/11 – 10:22

I agree about the 806 – 809 batch Chris, but when the “new” excitement wore off, and in quiet contemplation (!) I do not think the S series 4 bay design had quite the same balance as the classic final version of the first post war 5 bay style.
I greeted the first DXs with absolute rapture, but looking back, I do not personally hold them in quite the same esteem as the HWW series. Something to do with my age perhaps!

John Whitaker

01/06/11 – 10:22

Stephen, among my many fond memories of the “DB”s one of my favourite recollections couldn’t possibly be further from the seaside !! When I was a conductor at WYRCC Ilkley Depot any of our Lodekkas away for the statutory two weeks overhaul was replaced by a “KDB” from Keighley – one of the batch between KDB 54 -7. One foul Winter evening, with very heavy snow, I left Ilkley with the 5.25 pm to Haworth on service K12 driven by Brian Wadsworth. After we left Addingham to climb to the “whited out” summit at Marchup Cottages the bus began to boil very seriously. This, of course, was long before two way radios and mobile telephones and we felt rather as if we were approaching the North Pole. – “Only one thing for it” said Brian “We’ll have to fill it up with snow.” We both set about the task with gusto, while the red hot radiator and engine hissed and tinkled in astonished protest. Once we achieved the necessary level we resumed the journey – to Haworth and back to Ilkley for 8.07pm – without incident. Looking back of course, with the benefit of hindsight, it was a really foolish first aid measure which I imagine could have caused considerable damage – if Brendan is reading this I must plead forgiveness on the grounds of youthful ignorance of engineering matters and hope that he won’t hold it against me !!

Chris Youhill

01/06/11 – 11:22

I agree with Stephen on every count – especially the AVW

David Oldfield

01/06/11 – 16:50

With such foul weather, I assume, Chris Y, that the radiator was emptied and re-filled with water/antifreeze mix later, to avoid saying goodbye prematurely to the radiator and/or block!

Chris Hebbron

02/06/11 – 05:57

Don’t worry Chris, most people would excuse your first aid measure, as you and your driver showed great initiative under extreme conditions in order to keep the show on the road! Your escapade reminded me of a tale related by Ken Robinson, for many years engine shop foreman at West Yorkshire’s Central Works. Ken was going home to Knaresborough one evening after work, and noted that the bus he was travelling on (a Lodekka) had started to boil en route. On arrival at the bus station the bus was steaming away merrily, but the driver seemed oblivious to this and was about to depart for Harrogate again when Ken intervened. Built like a Foden truck, he was a very fair man, but one who did not suffer fools gladly and spoke his mind when ruffled. He informed the driver who he was, and said under no circumstances was he to leave the site without filling the bus up with water. The driver, no doubt trying to avert being reported, duly did this, and Ken went on his way. Ken said he had only realised a little while later what he had asked of the driver, and hoped that the Lodekka’s red hot radiator and cylinder block had not cracked when the cold water had been poured in!! Thankfully all must been well as he heard no more about the incident, and no doubt gave a sigh of relief that the driver had not reported HIM!!

Brendan Smith

12/06/11 – 07:54

My best memories of all types of Bristol are from WYRCC service 30 between Bradford and Leeds. From Bradford the route ran along Canal Road, then up Kings Road with a right turn into steep Queens Road, which is where the fun began. There were almost inevitably passengers to alight/board just after the lights, and if the driver was really unlucky, also at the stop a little further up, which meant a standing start on a steep incline just before the gradient became even worse prior to the junction with Bolton Road. I recall that on a fully-laden bus on this steepest section all conversation would cease as the driver waited for the very last engine beat before engaging bottom gear in the crash gearbox. If successful, (as it usually was), there would be a collective sigh of relief, and a settling down for the long slow haul up to Bolton Junction, a stretch of road shared with Bradford trolleybuses which flew up the gradient in great contrast to the grinding Bristols.

Robert Appleby

13/06/11 – 07:59

Very evocative, Robert, I can picture the scene vividly, just as you describe!

Chris Hebbron

19/06/11 – 10:28

Your stories of boiling Bristols takes me back to the early 1950’s and to the sunny fields of Somerset. My Great Aunt had a farm at Somerton and my mother and I used to travel from Bristol to stay for a week or so during the school holidays. At the time my father had a firm’s car but could not use it privately so to get there involved a journey on the bus. Leaving Prince Street (the original bus terminal), we rode on mostly Bristol GO5G or Lowbridge K Bristols, the height being important due to the number of railway bridges on the A38 as the old Radstock coal lines and the wonderful Somerset and Dorset railways crossed over the road.
The journey was around forty miles down to Street where the route ended and my most clear memory was that it seemed to take the whole afternoon to get there and when we arrived the bus was always boiling merrily but nobody seemed concerned! The stop was outside a hotel and maybe the driver topped up for the return journey home with water from there.
The onward journey to Somerton was around 5/6 miles and for that part my memory is dim but with the benefit of age, I’m fairly sure it was probably done in a locally run Bedford OB.. another of my favourites!
Memories! I’m sorry my posting is not about the Yorkshire days but back then, it might as well have been in Africa for us Southern softies!

Richard Leaman

11/07/11 – 07:36

Like Stephen, I too am glad there is much affection for the Bristol/ECW K (and come to that, its single-decked sibling the L). It has all the hallmarks of a classic bus in having a well-engineered chassis with an enviable reliability record, a soundly-constructed yet attractively-styled body, and above all else a fitness for purpose. The melodious gearbox was an added bonus, together with that ‘chuckle’ from the transmission sometimes heard when setting off up a gentle incline.
Robert’s comments about the notorious hill starts at the Queen’s Road/Bolton Road junction in Bradford brought back memories as I know that area well. Another ‘unlucky driver’ spot was the bus stop towards the top end of Hollins Hill between Shipley and White Cross, which served the residents of Esholt. For a while in the mid-sixties I travelled by bus to school in Bradford each day from Harrogate (route 53 via Otley) and dreaded this stop on the journey home, where speed was obviously of the essence. A ‘drop off’ here meant an endless crawl in a low gear to the top of the hill for the poor bus and its driver – even with the newer Lodekkas. As a schoolboy I found it both fascinating and frustrating that passengers only ever seemed to alight here – nobody ever boarded! In my schoolboy mind I was convinced that ‘they’ did this deliberately, rather than catching their own Esholt (65) bus home! For much of the journey Samuel Ledgard ‘deckers could also be seen, and a schoolboy cheer could often be heard when ‘our’ West Yorkshire steed overtook one at a bus stop – only to be replaced with a “boo!” when the ‘Sammie’s’ passed us at a bus stop later on! Happy days indeed.

Brendan Smith

— Top of this posting —

York – West Yorkshire – Bristol K5G – OWT 201 – YDG 88


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

York – West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H30/26 re-bodied H28/28R in 1955

This bus is not what it seems as it started life as a 1939 Bristol K5G with ECW H30/26 body, numbered Y 702 (YDG 72) and registered DWU 995. A previous posting shows one of these buses of this batch (Y 706) in original condition in York. Re-numbered as YDG 88, this bus is seen in “new” condition in York in 1955.
West Yorkshire decided on a major rebuild of the K5G chassis which included new side frames and re-registering for this last tranche of eleven buses that were re-bodied by the ECW. These buses were 26ft long so the ECW body which was of the style to fit the 27 ft Bristol KS chassis was shortened. This is evident by the reduced width of the front side cab window and also the upper saloon side front windows. I believe similar ECW bodies were supplied to Brighton, Hove and District for their re-bodied ex London Transport Bristol K6As in 1954/55.
The re-registering the chassis was not the usual practice by West Yorkshire as many of their single decker Bristol J chassis received new side frames in the period 1946/47 when their bodies were rebuilt but kept the same registrations as did all the earlier 1937/38 prewar re-bodied Bristol K5Gs. Maybe someone can explain the policy of when to re-register a chassis. I wonder whether the York residents thought YDG 88 was a new bus as I think the Gardner 5LW engine was still rigidly mounted so a loud noise and vibration would be evident for the passengers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

Full lists of Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.

21/08/11 – 16:24

A most fascinating resume of this particular batch of rebuilds – I wonder if the method used to “get rid of” the extra 12 inches of the more modern bodywork caused any degree of cramping in the cab – I imagine it must have done. The destination blind brings back far more recent memories for me of my days helping out willingly at Selby Depot for Caldaire/British Bus/Cowie/Arriva. Our normal York services were to Leeds, Doncaster, Goole or Pontefract, but unexpectedly an evening service (409) was commenced from Piccadilly to Fulford Broadway – un-necessary, and competition gone mad !!

Chris Youhill

22/08/11 – 07:45

Chris, the KS had a longer bonnet with the front bulkhead set back a bit to accommodate the Gardner 6LW engine, hence the greater length of the cab. I imagine that the rebuilt body on the K5G and K6A would have retained the original cab dimensions of those models. A similar situation existed with the Guy Arab III, which had the extra length for a 6LW in the “snout”, whereas the Arab IV had the bulkhead repositioned slightly further back to avoid feature of the projecting radiator.

Roger Cox

23/08/11 – 10:02

It’s been something of a puzzle to many why this particular batch of West Yorkshire K-type ‘rehabs’ was re-registered Richard. When their prewar chassis were overhauled at WY Central Works, they were rebuilt with new chassis side members, and all other major units and components were overhauled, and refitted to the chassis. New PV2 radiators were also fitted, to give a more modern appearance. As you say, earlier batches of WY K-types similarly treated were not re-registered. Whether the ‘Yorkies’ also had new cross-members and outriggers fitted to the chassis on overhaul I do not know, but it may be a possibility and thus the chassis could have been deemed to be ‘new’ and re-registered?
In John F Gill’s informative ‘History of York-West Yorkshire’ the author states that the JOC decided that YDG66-76 “should be rebuilt with new chassis utilising the original running units and fitted with new bodies at the approximate cost of £2500 per vehicle, and that if possible the vehicles should be re-registered”. Later in the text John mentions that the old bodies had been removed and scrapped at Harrogate, new chassis parts fitted at WY’s Central Works costing £272, and the new ECW bodies cost £1077 each. Presumably labour and other costs would have then taken the figure nearer to the aforementioned £2500. All fascinating stuff, but which also begs the question – why was the batch also renumbered following rebuild to become YDG82-92? What handsome machines though, and very ‘York’. The lack of adverts on YDG88 also shows up the shine of the hand-painted coachwork a treat. Very nice!

Brendan Smith

23/08/11 – 14:13

Reregistration of rebuilds seems to be a complex subject. Yorkshire Traction, Yorkshire Woollen and County Motors all rebodied Leyland PS2s as double deckers, as they had a surplus of single deckers. While the YWD ones kept the registrations of the original chassis those in the YTC fleet were given marks contemporary with the new bodies. Presumably Dewsbury CBC was not willing to reregister these rebuilt vehicles but Barnsley was.
County tried to give theirs new registrations but Huddersfield CBC would not allow it so they were transferred to YTC and reregistered by Barnsley.
Bristol Tramways rebuilt some early 1930s B types with L type chassis in 1949 and the wartime bodies were lengthened. Later they were given 1949 bodies yet they always retained the 1930s registrations. This was to get round limits on the number of new chassis Bristol could build after nationalisation by classifying these as rebuilds, including retaining the B chassis number with an L suffix.

Geoff Kerr

24/08/11 – 08:19

One aspect which has gone unnoticed/unmentioned is the the whole range of the DG index was a Gloucestershire registration mark!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/11 – 10:30

Chris H I spotted that but after reading the first posting again, I think that was a fleet number rather than the registration as it quote a different one..
Quote “This bus is not what it seems as it started life as a 1939 Bristol K5G with ECW H30/26 body, numbered Y 702 (YDG 72) and registered DWU 995. A previous posting shows one of these buses of this batch (Y 706) in original condition in York. Re-numbered as YDG 88, this bus is seen in “new” condition in York in 1955.”
I was puzzled by the Gloucestershire link as well!

Richard Leaman

24/08/11 – 20:48

You’re right, Richard. For example, I was thinking the reference Y702 was the fleet number, followed by the reg’n mark, whereas it was the body, then fleet number. Silly me!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/11 – 20:50

YDG is the fleet number! Was I dreaming again? What this has to do with Gloucestershire registration marks I do not follow! YDG stands for York..double deck..Gardner.
This is a wonderfully evocative post, and a super photograph. What I would give to hear the wonderful sounds they made just once more!
I have been attempting to research which other Tilling fleets had this short style of KS body apart from York. Brighton H and D rebodied their ex London Bs to this style, and Hants and Dorset also rebodied some Ks to this style, some open top.
Something tells me there were others. Please can anyone advise?

John Whitaker

25/08/11 – 07:07

That is a very interesting question John W, something which has intrigued me, not so much who had them but how the final outcome was determined. It shows, in a way, that the Bristol K could have had a four bay body all along but of course they didn’t really come into vogue until the late 1940’s and ECW hadn’t designed such a thing until the advent of the KS. When other chassis makes arrived for rebodying, however, the five bay style was usually retained, I’m thinking of Guy Arabs and an AEC Regent for Midland General in 1955 and Guy Arabs, Leyland PD1’s and Albions for Scottish companies. Were former Tilling companies able to state any requirements or was it entirely down to the drawing office at Lowestoft, or were other factors involved?

Chris Barker

26/08/11 – 06:55

Very intriguing Chris, I agree. Perhaps the nationalised ownership had something to do with it in that Bristols, the “official” make, could be rebuilt with a “modern” look, whereas non Bristols did not matter in the same way, even if under BTC control as was Mansfield.
In the case of York-West Yorkshire, I strongly suspect that these vehicles were presented to the public as new, which, in a way, they were, but just re-using reconditioned running units. Bristol may have had a stock of obsolescent K chassis frames, with no sales potential due to the KS(W), and LD being the vogue. It would perhaps have been difficult also to fit KS frames, as other mitigating circumstances would apply, such as prop shaft lengths etc. I am pretty sure that the Brighton and Hants and Dorset rebodies retained original chassis frames, as they were not re registered , but I am open to correction as always!

John Whitaker

26/08/11 – 06:56

Chris, ECW did build a batch of twelve experimental 4-bay bodies on K-type chassis in 1948/49, and one actually went to York-West Yorkshire (YDB73). Brighton Hove & District and Bristol also received one each, with Eastern Counties taking the remaining nine. An ex-ECOC example was stored at West Yorkshire’s Grove Park depot in Harrogate for a while in the 1980’s. It looked in need of a lot of love and attention, and I don’t know who owned it or what happened to it, but hope such a rare vehicle survived into preservation. The body did look a bit ‘odd’ though, as it was of full four-bay construction rather than four-and-a-quarter. The overall outline was of a standard highbridge ECW body of the period, but with the main side windows ‘stretched’ lengthways. Front and rear upper deck side windows remained short in length however, as on a standard K-type body. This, and the lack of a quarter window or panel ahead of the rear platform looked decidedly strange, and the later 4-bay design used on the KS/KSW chassis looked to me, a more balanced and happier design.

Brendan Smith

26/08/11 – 14:35

I have always loved the ECW high-bridge special four and a quarter bay body built on the Bristol K chassis 1954 /55. I bought the photo of YDG 88 posted above on a West Yorkshire Information Service Tour in 1956 and now sharing it with others has brought a great deal of information about these lovely Bristol K5G buses. I believe there were only 27 of these special bodies built. Brighton had 6, Hants & Dorset had 10 and York West Yorkshire had 11 and all were re bodies. If anybody has further information of more than the 27 I have listed, please submit a comment.

Richard Fieldhouse

27/08/11 – 07:27

Quoting John above..
” Bristol may have had a stock of obsolescent K chassis frames, with no sales potential due to the KS(W), and LD being the vogue.”
I used to live very near to the Bristol Commercial Vehicle works (Motor Constructional Works if preferred!) and when riding my three wheeler bike past the open yard, even then I saw that piles of brake drums, axle assemblies, chassis rails, steering components etc. etc, were left just lying outside on a patch of ground right next to the main Bath Road and completely unprotected except for the silver paint! No railings, no fence, no security and left there for years! Selecting parts for one off designs would have not been any problem!
Try doing that now and keeping them there overnight would be a challenge. Different days!

Richard Leaman

30/08/11 – 08:01

That indeed would explain it Richard! Piles of chassis frames etc at the Bristol works when you passed on your bike. We used to make similar excursions on our bikes around various depots and scrap yards in the Bradford area. Times have changed as you say!
Perhaps new chassis sides were fitted to the H & D and B H & D rebodies, even if not re-registered.
There were no lowbridge equivalents as far as I can see, and it was about this time when H and D had some K chassis rebodied with lowbridge ECW bodies built to the original 5 bay style, some, I believe, as “8 footers”
All detailed in ECW Part 2, a book I have unfortunately mislaid!

John Whitaker

Eastern Counties – Bristol K5G – LKH 255 – KNG 255

Eastern Counties - Bristol K5G - LKH 255 - KNG 255

Eastern Counties Omnibus Company
1950
Bristol K5G
ECW H56R

This is a picture taken in my teen-age years of one of my favourite K5G’s which used to regularly run the route 92A to my home council estate in Norwich. Taken in Surrey Street garage on 23rd August 1969 it rests for the night.
The bus was withdrawn at the end of March 1970.
Surrey Street Bus Station was built on a rising gradient between Surrey Street and Queens Road, and opened in 1936. The garage was huge (able to store 180 buses I believe). The area is still the bus station, but in its place now is a modern bus terminus right on the spot where the garage was.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Graham W

15/08/13 – 17:40

Nice “atmospheric” shot, Graham. Thanks for posting.

Pete Davies

16/08/13 – 06:36

Yes and amazingly the first Eastern Counties bus on the site – just as I was preparing to send one myself to redress the deficiency.

John Stringer

16/08/13 – 14:51

Interesting that the ECOC Ks lasted until 1970. All the Bristol Omnibus ones had gone by 1966. More hills there of course but most were K6A or 6B.

Geoff Kerr

17/08/13 – 16:37

What a great photograph, which brings the memories flooding back from the days when I drove for E.C.O.C at Cambridge (1970-1975). It could easily be mistaken for Hills Road garage, in the late evening when all the buses are back in and cleaned, refuelled etc., ready for the run out. In my day they would have been LKH’s and LKD’s. On freezing winter mornings the exhaust smoke would billow out from the garage as the buses were on cold start, and I can still feel the icy cold steering wheel almost sticking to my hands… gloves were essential for an early start. What would I now give for an opportunity to drive one of these on the 106 up to Girton Corner and back through the city centre and on to Red Cross (now Addenbrooke’s Hospital)

Norman Long

17/08/13 – 16:39

ectt

In the submission by Graham W on the ECOC Bristol K5G, he makes mention of the Surrey Street Bus Station built in 1936.
Attached is a copy of the ECOC Timetable commencing 25th March 1936 for Norwich Services.
ECOC have not wasted a second in advertising the new facility to its passengers by putting it on the front of the latest Timetable.
How much more interesting is that cover than the modern day stuff.

Stephen Howarth

02/07/14 – 06:30

I remember the SC with ECOC. Lowestoft had TVF 520 which was deployed on the 20A to Rock Estate. Noisy and slow! Attractive little bus though. Yes, the back axle was a BMC one.
The K? attractive bus but with a 5LW decidedly sluggish. Seats were a darn sight more comfortable than the nasty plastic things too many operators are fond of now. The interior was also more welcoming, I think, not having that awful dark grey ceiling you see too often now. LKH 173, OVF 173 was at Lowestoft into the 1970s. As regards driving them, one of the inspectors at Lowestoft described them as “..horrible things to drive..”

Brian Moore

02/07/14 – 11:00

Two lovely pictures above from the days of “real” bus operation. I shall never forget my first encounter with beautiful Cambridge, when I worked for Wallace Arnold and was on my very first tour feeder from Leeds to Southend Airport – no route learning of any kind in those days, and only an inadequate “Roneo stencilled” A4 sheet with scant information for the 207 mile journey. Lunch was at the University Arms – unloading and parking nigh on impossible – after which the sheet advised “via A10/A130 Trumpington High Street” etc etc. By now I was well over an hour late and breathed a sigh of relief when I saw the sign “A10.” I couldn’t help noticing lovely red ECOC Bristols coming the other way showing “Trumpington” and began to worry – surely more than one driver wouldn’t have forgotten to change the destination blind ?? I pulled up and asked a friendly constable about the route and his kindly face looked sorry for me as he said “Oh no, you’re on the A10 to Ely, you should be on the A10 for Royston.”
I was now ready to abandon ship and run away but carried on, somehow. I think the only thing that saved my sanity that scorching hot summer day was when I descended a long hill lined with lovely trees into a beautiful unspoilt market town, “Saffron Walden.” Older readers may remember the comedy radio weekly show “Much Binding in the Marsh” in which Richard Murdoch and Kenneth Horne were RAF officers who always asked each other “Are you going to Saffron Walden for the weekend Sir?” I’d always thought that like the title of the show Saffron Walden was an invented “spoof” name !! Eventually arriving at Southend Airport at 7.00pm (two hours late) the rampaging courier, a Spanish man who should have been with me from Leeds but helped himself to two unauthorised days off, cried out “Veeere ‘av you been – ve have dinner in Ostende at 7.30pm.” By now completely drained I asked him where had HE been as it was part of his job to show me the route. I managed to smile to myself with relief at the thought of the Channel Airways Dakota being spectacularly unable to reach Belgium in time for the soup !! After that, the Southend run became one of my favourite jobs which I did often, and during our evenings there I fell in love with the town and the Essex area. The cherry on the cake was the arrangement whereby the coaches were cleaned and refuelled at Prittlewell depot by Eastern National.

Chris Youhill

28/07/14 – 07:49

Like Norman Long, I was also a driver with ECOC at Cambridge. I later moved to St Ives outstation and then Peterborough, by which time the area had become Cambus. At Peterborough I became the regular driver of the by-then-semi-preserved FLF453 with, usually, Ken Johnson on the back. FLF453 was one of the class I also drove regularly whilst it was based at Cambridge. One ‘pig’ of an FLF was 465 which during its last years had only a four speed gearbox fitted. Nobody told unfamiliar drivers about this and they found out the embarrassing way – as I did one day on Victoria Avenue.
Regarding the LKH class, the last 7′ 6″ example in Cambridge was 135(HPW 135)and I believe this became the final 7′ 6″ K in the ECOC fleet. Of the 8′ versions, the final pair in Cambridge were 168 (OVF 168) and 269 (LNG 269). The honour of being the final example in Cambridge fell to 269 which I believe just made it into 1971. One of the FAH registered examples, FAH 106, also lingered on in Cambridge almost to the end. It was still running in 1969 anyway.
On that very well served destination ‘Service’, I believe the habit of displaying this originated back in ‘tin bible’ days when changing destinations involved a rummage through a hut in Drummer Street. But in later ECOC years ‘Service’ was displayed sometimes out of laziness but sometimes because the bus concerned had come from another depot. The practice of displaying ‘Service’ was officially prohibited if the proper display was available but the inspectors and management never really bothered to enforce it. The practice continued into Cambus days. Displaying ‘Service’ wasn’t really a problem as local people knew the routes and tourists didn’t know the difference between Service, Red Cross, Keynes Road, Foster Road or Fen Estate anyway!
The SC4LK (LC) was a horrid, noisy little thing. The back axle was indeed a BMC product (usually quoted as being from Austin) and I think the gearbox was a David Brown effort. The Gardner 4LK engine was essentially the same unit as used in the midget submarines of WWII. On thing I remember the LC for was the enormous reversing lamp on its rear. Also, if memory serves me correctly, there was a bell cord along the saloon ceiling similar to that used by London Transport instead of bell pushes.
Cambridge depot had LKH256-260 and possibly 261. Of those 256-8 spent just about all their lives at Cambridge.
The KNG (and onwards) registered examples always seemed modern in their day due to having stainless steel (or chrome plated) grab poles and seat grabs. Earlier K’s (HPW, GPW, FAH, FNG etc registrations) usually had wooden seat grabs and grab poles covered in some sort of black plastic. Another difference, not visible on the picture of 255, was the upper deck front grabrails. KNG reg. onwards had two separate grabrails mounted on top of the destination box, whereas earlier K’s had a black rail mounted midway up the front windows and passing right across. From memory the lowbridge LK types similarly differed according to age.

Darren Kitson

Western National – Bristol K6B – KUO 972 – 959

Western National - Bristol K6B - KUO 972 - 959

Western National Omnibus Co Ltd
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW L27/28R

KUO 972 is former Western National 959 dating from 1950. It is a K6B with ECW L27/28R body that has undergone full restoration. It was withdrawn in 1970 after spending all it’s working life for Western National in Cornwall. It is seen in service at Brislington on 10th August 2014 during the Bristol Vintage Bus Group running day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

26/08/14 – 10:49

Couldn’t get to Brislington this year so thanks, Ken, for a nice atmospheric b&w picture of a fine bus. Forget all those Routemasters and Atlanteans—the K(SW)6B is a TRUE classic.

Ian T

26/08/14 – 15:34

For others who may not have been able to get to Brislington some more of my pictures can be found at www.flickr.com/photos/  – set includes a Routemaster! I was meant to travel down on OTT 43 but we only got as far as Strensham services before having to turn back with problems with the exhaust manifold. So I then drove by car to Brislington arriving much later than I had planned. Fortunately the weather improved as the day went on. This vehicle is scheduled to be at Kingsbridge running day in September

Ken Jones

Yorkshire Woollen District – Bristol K5G – OWT 204 – 154

Yorkshire Woollen District - Bristol K5G - OWT 204 - 154

Yorkshire Woollen District
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H28/28R (1955)

Aliens Land In Dewsbury.

Yorkshire Woollen District experienced a severe shortage of vehicles during 1969 and consequently was obliged to acquire some most untypical vehicle types which no doubt caused much displeasure to both engineering and road staff. Seen here at Savile Town depot, Dewsbury in 1970 are a selection.

From the left.

WCY 892 (160) was one of seven AEC/PRV Bridgemasters (H43/29F) that had come from South Wales Transport, this one being new in 1961.

UHN 642 (166) and WHN 54 (169) were two of six Bristol KSW6B’s with ECW H32/28R bodies, that had been new to United Automobile in 1954/55.

6162 WJ (141) was one of seven Leyland PD2/30’s with Roe H33/26RD bodies that had been new to the Sheffield ‘C’ (British Railways owned) fleet in 1960. From the same source had also come two PD2/20’s with ECW bodies, three Atlanteans and two Burlingham-bodied Leopards.

OWT 204 (154) was one of four Bristol K5G’s with ECW highbridge bodies that had been new to York West Yorkshire in 1939, then rebuilt with new chassis frames and rebodied in 1955. There was also a pair of lowbridge K6B’s from Keighley West Yorkshire.

All those in the photo were withdrawn in 1970 (6162 WJ in 1972) and sold to North’s, the dealer, at Sherburn-in-Elmet only the Bridgemaster seeing further use, being exported to Canada for use initially by a restaurant in Toronto, then by Gray Tours of Winnipeg.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

06/01/17 – 06:24

Hmm . . . varying shades of red! I’, assuming that Ks were placed in service in Tilling red, the Bridgemaster in SWT red, but the PD2 repainted into YWD red. I’ve seen a paint listing somewhere which refers to “BET red” and “BET crimson” as standard colours shared by BET companies: I’m sure YD used one of the two, and Hebble the other (and one of two was the same as Western Welsh) – I’ll have made a note somewhere, I’ll track it down.
It strikes me as odd that YWD went to the trouble of making “coach glasses” for the Bridgemaster and PD2, but not the UA Ks.

Philip Rushworth

06/01/17 – 10:51

Sorry to reveal my ignorance but what do you mean by “coach glasses”?

David Rawsthorn

06/01/17 – 10:52

I knew of the vehicle shortage at YWD but I’m surprised to find that such a variety of interesting vehicles were brought in to help. While I can understand the general displeasure among the work force, as an enthusiast driver I would have been over the moon at getting to know such vehicles.

Chris Youhill

06/01/17 – 10:53

Great photo John. Takes me back to when I started at YWD Head office at Savile Town Dewsbury in 1970. These buses made a welcome change to the MCW Regent Vs which seemed to be everywhere around Dewsbury. The Bridgemasters were christened Welsh Corgis.

J D Blackburn

07/01/17 – 06:44

David
Those glass panels with the operators names on below the rear windows of coaches, I couldn’t think of a better name for the glasses with “Yorkshire” in lieu of destination screens.

Philip Rushworth

08/01/17 – 06:21

Thanks.

David Rawsthorn

08/01/17 – 06:22

I guess the Ks, being considerably older, were considered to be “not long for this world”! I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for me the ECW body for the K (especially the high bridge KSW version) was the nicest and best balanced half-cab double decker of all time. By contrast, I always thought the Bridgemaster was the ugliest (with apologies to those who love them!)

Stephen Ford

08/01/17 – 06:23

OWT 204 was actually the fifth ex York-West Yorkshire K5G that Yorkshire used. They started with OWT 196/7/201/5 from 1 May 1969 and numbered these 155/4/2/3 respectively. However, OWT 197 was returned to West Yorkshire (for disposal) at the end of May and replaced by OWT 204, the subject of the photo, which took on OWT 197’s fleet number of 154.
At this stage all six West Yorkshire vehicles (4 x K5Gs and 2 x K6Bs) were only on hire and carried a “West Yorkshire Road Car” legal ownership panel and an “On Hire to Yorkshire Woollen District” sticker. They also had “West Yorkshire” fleetnames (i.e. without Keighley- or York- prefixes) and full Tilling red and cream livery with black wings and wheels. This hire situation continued until 18 August 1969, when all six vehicles were sold to Yorkshire Woollen District.
In January 1970, OWT 196/201/4 had their wings and wheels painted red (ex black) and gained Yorkshire fleetnames, but remained in Tilling red and cream.
They were used mainly on YWD routes A1/2/3/4 (Thornhill-Dewsbury-Birstall), for which special short destination blinds were made for the front only; they carried no rear destination or route number blinds. They worked mainly at peak hours, but we were told at the time that they “…are extremely popular with the Yorkshire drivers, who appreciate their reliability and sturdiness. Indeed, they are practically the only double deckers at Dewsbury that do not have to be “booked off” for one fault or another!”

Trevor Leach

08/01/17 – 06:24

I have read before about the “severe vehicle shortage” in 1969 which may have been shared with others. Why was this? Do I remember that they had problems with inspections? In days of uniform fleets it is strange to read that these five “begged” buses had four different makes of engine- a Youhill delight- what was the rest of the fleet then? Leyland? At least I think West Riding- around then- replaced Wulfrunians with buses with various Gardner engines.

Joe

10/01/17 – 06:17

From memory, local newspapers referred to a shortage of spare parts.
In 1969 Yorkshire Woollen’s fleet included:
6 x circa 1950 Leyland PS2s rebodied as double-deckers by Roe in 1962-63
44 x AEC Regent Vs dating from 1958-61
9 x Leyland PD3A built 1962
14 x Albion Lowlander built 1964
22 x Daimler Fleetline built 1965-67
12 x Leyland Atlantean built 1967
Between 1959-62 Yorkshire Woollen purchased 43 AEC Reliance single-deckers, but many of these had been withdrawn by 1969.
YWD purchased 50 bus-bodied Leyland Leopards between 1962-65.
I well remember wishing to travel to school and finding that what had previously been a 70-seat Regent V-operated service was frequently a coach-seated AEC Reliance, either with 39-seat Weymann Fanfare bodywork, or ex-Maidstone & District examples with centre-entrance 37-seat Harrington coachwork.
I regret to say that things got so bad with being unable to even board a vehicle – and consequently being late for school – I finally gave up on YWD and started walking to school.

Paul H

10/01/17 – 16:49

I was aware that Hebble was experiencing severe problems with its fleet around this time (1970) but did not realise YWD shared the same problems.
The former Sheffield buses came to YWD as a result of NBC taking over the former railway-owned C fleet and distributing them to its subsidiaries, but no doubt they helped with the vehicle shortage.

Geoff Kerr

03/03/17 – 10:23

I left Dewsbury in 1968, but I don’t think that the situation was much better for 2 or 3 years before this. I well remember 41 seater Reliance/Harringtons being used on the A group of services to Thornhill where the allocation was a 70 seat Regent V every 5 minutes, with queues from the Market stop almost to the end of the road, and no chance of boarding the bus opposite the Bus Station. I am not sure that the cause was the same as 1969 but the effect certainly was. As an 18 year old I had a Saturday afternoon job with a Market Trader (I had to go to school Saturday morning), and I always walked to the Bus Station and caught one of the other services (Whitley, Grange Moor or Thornhill Edge) which took me close to home – and they were always full with frustrated A service passengers.

Malcolm Hirst

22/11/18 – 07:02

So bad was the state of the fleet in the late sixties that the road staff struck over the state of the vehicles one spokesman for the staff cited the PS rebuilds as the worst offenders Despite this they lasted well into the NBC era.

Chris Hough

24/11/18 – 06:15

The rebuilt PS2s also caused a lightening strike during the seventies. This was due to heaters not working. Sounds quite radical but it was probably the accumulation of vehicles constantly being “logged off” for this problem. I was working at Dewsbury head office at the time and remember having to walk home cursing everything.

John Blackburn

28/08/20 – 06:46

Was lucky enough to work for YWD in 1970 and doubly lucky to have missed driving a K5G up any hill in the area. 6 cylinder Gardner engined half cabs were bad enough but the thought of a 5 cylinder one only makes you think of trips you could miss with late running. Always found the ex Sheffield Leylands being a pleasure to dd felt quite tight vehicles and easy to drive. Really enjoyed the Corgi Bridgemasters unlike many drivers. Being tall the gear stick being at an angle was far easy to use in comparison to the Regent V where second gear was hard to engage due to being at the back of the bulkhead and a knuckle scraper.

Ian Gardner

15/10/22 – 06:04

I remember seeing one of the ex-Sheffield Titans freshly repainted into YWD red. Unfortunately the paint was rather thin and the Sheffield blue bands were still visible under it!

Glen Simpson