I can’t recall seeing the rounded lines of the pre-war ECW highbridge double decker in OBP, so thought you might like to see FAE 51 in July 1961. The vehicle was new (blue livery?) to Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co Ltd in 1939 as C3132, survived the war and by this time had been moved to the driver training fleet as W85. It is resting in what I recall as the small coach depot in a street (probably demolished years ago) east of the main road up Old Market and near Lawrence Hill. It never seemed to be manned and occasionally had several coaches parked up. The ECW body looked rather nicer than the BBW (Brislington Body Works) version which looked a bit sterner! See the vehicle on the left at this link.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
19/06/17 – 07:21
The depot near Old Market Geoff refers to was called West Street. Although I grew up in Bristol and was at school there in 1961, unfortunately I’ve no recollection of it! I visited all the other depots in the city but this one escaped my notice. I was told that West Street was a former Greyhound coach depot, actually in Trinity Street. Coaches moved from there to Lawrence Hill in the 1950s, after which it was used for coach parking during the winter season, but I don’t know when it closed completely. A nice reminder of the pre-war ECW bodied K5Gs, the last of which survived in passenger service in Bristol until 1959.
Geoff Kerr
20/06/17 – 07:25
In 1935, a batch of nine Leyland TD5, with almost identical bodies were delivered to Tyneside. They were JR 8618/8626, and numbered TT18/22. However, some controversy exist as to who actually built them. The design is unquestionably ECW, but some accounts have them being built “presumably subcontract or under licence” by Charles H Roe.
I have some copies of PSV Circle BOC allocations of 1958 (either side of the big City services reorganisation) which record the depot as Trinity Street rather than West Street. The date of closure is given as 24 October 1958. Prior to the reorganisation it is noted as an overnight garage for coaches and store for delicensed vehicles. It does not appear to have had its own allocation at that point in time. Subsequent to the change PSVC records that all Bristol based coaches were allocated to Lawrence Hill. At that time coach fleet numbers were mixed in with the single deck fleet number series so without going through the allocation vehicle by vehicle it is not easy to see if any were allocated anywhere else prior to the change.
Peter Cook
21/06/17 – 07:22
According to Mike Walker and the late Geoff Bruce, in “Greyhound Motors” published by the Bristol Vintage Bus Group, “the Trinity Road” coach garage was sold to the British Railways Board in 1961 for use as a road vehicle workshop, and were still standing in the early 21st century, still in use, as a car repair and exhaust centre in 2003. 96 West Street was the office address in the early years, but those premises were sold in the early 1930s. The Trinity Street premises virtually backed onto the West Street site – and from a 2014 Google image look to be in use as a carpet warehouse.
Southern Vectis Omnibus Company 1940 Bristol K5G ECW O30/26R
In 1937 Southern Vectis took two examples of the Bristol GO5G chassis, and then ordered two examples of the later K5G design. CDL 899, which arrived in July 1939 with fleet number 702, was followed in January 1940 by DDL 50, number 703 which, like its predecessors, had ECW H30/26R bodywork. These G and K buses had the high mounted version of the Bristol radiator, whilst all later Southern Vectis K types had the PV2 style. The next K chassis to enter the Southern Vectis fleet came in 1944/45, but these were four K6A machines which were very quickly converted to Gardner 5LW power, and all subsequent K/KS/KSW deliveries had 5LW engines from new. Nos. 702 and 703 were both converted to open toppers in 1959 for operation on the scenic coastal routes, where 702 is seen on 28 August 1967. Sitting “outside” as these veterans climbed up the stiff gradient out of Ventnor was a musical experience to savour. In 1969 703 was converted into a tree lopper, and finally sold off into preservation in 1979, but 702 continued in occasional and promotional service on the Isle of Wight. Happily, both CDL 899 and DDL 50 survive.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
28/05/18 – 06:45
Living In Portsmouth for twenty years from 1956, I experienced inside and outside rides on both these buses over the years. Outside was always pleasant, both from the weather and mechanical aspects, but inside was a cacophony that assaulted the eardrums. How the drivers ever put up with the noise is beyond me. I always assumed from the vibration that the engines were mounted directly on the chassis. And why did SV ever deign to eschew 6LW engines on such a hilly island, producing vehicles that were hard work for drivers and so sluggish, even these with their roofs cut off! I’m glad that they’ve survived, though!
Chris Hebbron
29/05/18 – 06:34
My G certainly is directly mounted and is extremely noisy but vibration in the saloon is low. Fitting a 6LW in a K was not straightforward and I have done it in a KSW which had a re-design to allow fitment but not straight forward. Think on K it would have reqd body mods.
Roger Burdett
31/05/18 – 07:32
There were GO6Gs and K6Gs in South Wales where the hilly operating terrain really demanded them. Significantly none of them had ECW bodies which were fairly standardised. Pontypridd had batches of Beadle-bodied Ls and Ks with both 5LW and 6LW engines and the bodies were significantly different due to the extra length of the 6LW. Merthyr was another regular K6G buyer whilst Cardiff (not as hilly) bought a batch of unique KW6Gs with Bruce bodies.
David Beilby
31/05/18 – 07:35
Chris H raises a question which has interested me for a long time; why Tilling companies never had any K6Gs. I may be wrong but as far as I’m aware, until the advent of the KS series, Eastern Coach Works never produced any bodywork into which the 6LW engine would fit. If any companies in the group had a requirement for 6 cylinder power, then it had to be the 6A or the 6B, the Gardner 6LW was never an option. Of course there were Bristol K6Gs, popular with some South Wales municipals and independents such as Silcox but not in Tilling fleets. Similarly, when Hants & Dorset wanted L6Gs, they had to send them to Portsmouth Aviation to be bodied because ECW couldn’t fit the engine into their standard single deck body. I imagine the Bristol radiator could have been moved forward in the style of the Guy Arab but was it the builders who were unwilling to alter their specifications or was it Tilling HQ who decreed that operators couldn’t have 6LWs in the 1930s and 40s?
Chris Barker
01/06/18 – 05:56
It is said that one of the design constraints of the Bristol AVW engine was that it should fit in the bonnet of the K type chassis, thereby limiting its capacity to 8.1 litres. Not until 1950, when the maximum length of double deckers was increased to 27ft 6ins, did Bristol/ECW offer 6LW powered versions of the K type, the KS and KSW. In these the bulkhead was moved back to accommodate the extra length of this engine. As other correspondents have stated, the K6G/KW6G buses built for municipalities and Silcox all had bodywork from builders other than ECW to incorporate a set back bulkhead. Taking up Chris Hebbron’s point about the challenging Isle of Wight topography for the 5LW, Southern Vectis continued to specify this small engine in the wider, longer and heavier KSW type of which it had 15 examples. Only when the Lodekka appeared on the scene did Southern Vectis finally accept the 6LW.
Roger Cox
04/06/18 – 16:37
CDL 899 was used for a while on the service to the Needles from Alum Bay and is seen nearing the end of its climb. I did wonder whether the noise could be heard across the Solent!
A second photo shows the addition of route branding.
Keith Newton
07/06/18 – 05:31
Lovely photos, Keith, thx for posting them. can well understand the engine noise on this challenging route. The front design of the ECW bodywork, with its scrunched-up windscreen, has the effect of making the high radiator barely obvious. It certainly was when it was fitted with a wartime utility body!
Chris Hebbron
07/06/18 – 05:32
The exchanges over this bus are quite revealing. I have never been closely involved in the bus industry and others may be better qualified to comment. Whereas in pre nationalisation days- the aftermath of the last war- you could obtain (probably beg) a Bristol with AEC engine and Roe body, as nationalisation progressed you could have a K chassis as long as it had a Bristol or 5cyl Gardner engine, an ECW body and any colour as long as it was green, red and/or cream. Choice was restricted and was down purely to chassis length. Later on, the Lodekka even eliminated height as an option: was this, much later and from comments here, the terminal Leyland disease? Certainly the command economy may have been dismantled in the 50’s but lived on for years on the Bristol-Lowestoft axis. Back to the bus and what a lovely example- the odd feature to me is the absence of elfansafety railings on the upper deck- just the side panels raised above the seat backs. If the bus were to topple, that was you done, or overhanging trees, crane jibs or whatever. Tiny mirrors, but then the conductor would watch behind. Happy days!
Joe
10/06/18 – 08:32
Joe, I don’t think that the product policies of Bristol CV and ECW in the 1950’s and ’60’s were similar to those of Leyland in the 1970’s. First of all, one must remember that the restrictions were placed on BCV and ECW, who were only allowed to sell to the state-owned operators; while those operators could continue to select whichever supplier they wanted – and, indeed, they did so, particularly the Scottish Bus Group, but the THC also bought Bedford coaches, and sometimes lightweight buses. It is also generally known that BCV and ECW maintained close contact with their customers during that era, and some specialist models were also produced, in numbers that were probably not really economic – I’m thinking of the SC and SU small single deck chassis. The Lodekka was of course a solution that provided the comfort of an highbridge layout within the overall height of a lowbridge bus – with a stepless lower deck floor to boot with the F series models. It is also worth remembering that BCV and ECW were relatively low-volume producers, and their customers did have more choice. As such, significantly wider choices of engines, etc, would probably not have been viable. By the 1970’s Leyland had a virtual monopoly of the heavy duty bus and coach market in the UK – and, judging from contemporary reports, seemed to believe that they knew what their customers wanted. I guess that the subsequent history tells us whether that was correct – or not!
West Yorkshire Road Car Company 1937 Bristol JO5G ECW B32F
West Yorkshire Bristol JO5G 970 with Eastern Coach Works (ECW) B32F body built in 1937 is also seen at Bradford Chester Street Bus Station about 1950. It would appear to being used as a temporary crew rest room after a duty on a service from Ilkley. This bus was was one of a further twenty eight “Js” rebuilt by ECW with a roller blind indicator box to replace the “bible” indicator. Bristol JO5G 970 was part of a large fleet of over one hundred bought between 1935 and 1937 and the “Js” could be seen operating over a wide area of the West Yorkshire Company network. 970 was withdrawn from service at the end of September 1954 and the last in the fleet JO5G 996 went out of service in May 1955.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse
06/03/11 – 09:19
Another wonderful picture of particular nostalgia for me, as I lived in Ilkley in those days, travelled often on service 63, and when I joined West Yorkshire in 1960 worked on the route frequently. Although the installation of the postwar pattern full size roller destination boxes was an obvious improvement for all concerned, the fitment always seemed to me to be a little excessive in height and took something away from the beautiful classic lines of these vehicles. I had completely forgotten that the intermediate display was as comprehensive as shown in the picture – later editions settled for “Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross” and “Burley in Wharfedale” was certainly a bonus. West Yorkshire was one of those companies who liked to stick to three digit fleet numbers, which brought about an interesting point with this batch : In the 1937 delivery BWT 794 became 999, thereby “bursting the thousand”, and BWT 795 became 101.
Chris Youhill
06/03/11 – 11:55
Absolutely wonderful photograph which again takes me back further than I would care to admit! WYRC allocated fleet numbers on a “hundred” block basis, service bus single deckers going on to a new “100” series when the 900 block was exhausted. I well remember riding on these “J”s , particularly from Bingley to Dick Hudsons, and it was these buses which evoked those memories of internal transfers which were discussed some weeks ago. “Please tender exact fare and state destination” etc! I agree with Chris that the classic lines of the ECW body were somewhat spoiled by the roller blind conversion, which always seemed a bit “spasmodic” as to why some were and some were not converted. I remember riding on the last “J” in service, in 1955, on an enthusiast tour from Bradford to York, where we also sampled the delights of the 3 “ADG”s, a story to be told elsewhere. A delightful photograph Richard, and what a contrast between these later BWT registered J types and their earlier squarer ECOC bodied elder cousins with YG, AWW and AWX registrations! A fleet with very strong Tilling influences, and yet how strange that the body layout, if not style, was typical of BET practice, with the front porch style door. Superb rugged, reliable buses which just oozed atmosphere and character!
John Whitaker
11/03/11 – 07:44
I’ve never driven a Bristol J or G, but K (in service) and L (in preservation) are old friends. A letter in Buses Illustrated about 40 years ago (I’m afraid I’ve forgotten the exact wording) suggested that–unlike the London RT driver–the poor provincial Bristol driver had to wrestle with heavy, awkward controls. Nothing could be further from the truth. Steering is light and dead positive, brakes are progressive and trustworthy, the clutch allows a nice smooth takeup, the gearbox is less demanding than some and has sensible ratios and the cab is comfortable: in short, an ideal driver’s bus. Or was I always lucky enough to get the good ‘uns? Lovely evocative photograph! Thanks.
Ian Thompson
11/03/11 – 11:13
I agree with you fully Ian on every point there, and in particular concerning the brakes – I always found Bristol brakes to be completely predictable and reliable at all times. In my own view, and I appreciate that every driver has his/her favoured model, the Bristols of that era shared friendly top place with the Leyland PS1/PD1 for a pleasant and comfortable driving experience and absolutely no hidden vices.
Chris Youhill
11/03/11 – 17:51
I think it is what the onlooker sees (or thinks he sees). The pre-selector gearbox, especially on AEC Regents, always looked and sounded quick, smooth and light to operate. Manual gear change (before synchromesh) required the pause to let revs die down when changing up, or the blip on the accelerator to speed them up when changing down. So it was a slower change, accompanied by mechanical sounds that gave the impression of was hard and heavy work. Derby’s Fodens and Bartons’ Utility Guy Arabs certainly always looked and sounded as though they were pigs to drive – but there again I may be quite wrong.
Stephen Ford
12/03/11 – 07:11
Stephen, the Fodens were not at all hard to drive in terms of physical effort, but the gearboxes required spot on precision and were very unforgiving. Any miss-match of road speed and engine revs produced a high pitched screech rather akin to applying a piece of metal to a power saw and was most embarrassing. The Guy Arabs (early marques including the utilities) had easily manageable gearboxes, once you remembered that some were “back to front” in that first and second were nearest to you, and third and fourth were against the engine panel. Those Arabs did though have very heavy clutches and much effort was also needed to press the accelerator hard enough once the governors engaged. Despite these observations though I don’t think either model could fairly be described as “a pig to drive” – provided you were interested in the job they were rewarding and very tough vehicles, and I’d just love an hour on each of them right now. My favourite bus at Samuel Ledgard’s Otley Depot was the Roe rebodied utility Guy Arab JUA 763, with “back to front” gearbox – I used to take it out at every opportunity. The placid little garage man who allocated the buses was always aware that he might have it on his hands to the last each morning as the undedicated brethren shunned it. His face would light up with relief when I appeared and, pencil poised, who would enquire “763 kid ??” and with a happy smile delete the number on his little list. My next task was then to try and pacify with cigs, sweets or teas the disgruntled conductors who would mutter “narrow gangways and only one bell upstairs.”
It was John Whitaker’s amusing recollection, (posting of East Yorkshire Leyland PD1), of his agonising journey from York to Leeds on a 1935 York-West Yorkshire GO5G that prompted this submission. It is taken from Keith A Jenkinson’s excellent book ‘York City Buses’, (my grateful thanks to the author for his kind permission to use it). It is actually from the 1937 batch of 4 vehicles, but apart from small differences to the window corners, it’s external appearance is virtually identical to the 1935 batch. The picture shows the vehicle at ECW before it entered service, in the pre-WW II livery and is, no doubt, rather smarter than the bus on which John had his small adventure, but I thought he – and hopefully others – might be interested to see how it would have looked in its prime. Even ECW were capable of small mistakes, however; the registration number is wrong!
United Automobile Services 1958 Bristol LS6B ECW C34F
Photo taking out side Scarborough railway station this is where United started there coach tours from I always liked the mystery tours. There was 1409 Bristol LS (light Saloon) built between 1953 – 58. United must of liked them, as they were by far the biggest buyer having 328 of them.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
I think the coach is from the UC1-5 series and they were stored at Darlington over the winter period, they were not used on the Tyne Tees service early in there lives. One I think gravitated to Morris Bros of Swansea.
Paul Fraser
There was a shot of this same vehicle in an issue of ‘Vintage Roadscene’ about two years ago. It was depicted outside Scarborough railway station, next to a board proclaiming ‘United afternoon coach tours leave here at 2.30 pm’. Standing in front of the coach is seen one Charlie Bullock, a long serving driver with United at Scarborough, and one of the town’s real characters. (For many years Charlie was the proud owner of ex-United 1940 Bristol K5G towing lorry FHN 923, which is now in the care of the preservation folk at Newton Aycliffe).
Brendan Smith
Another superb shot of a United coach in the Olive and Cream livery. One of these vehicles UC4 304GHN is currently under restoration with the Aycliffe & District Bus Preservation Society. I do believe that these 5 vehicles were used on holiday tours to Scotland and Devon when they were new.
Paul
01/01/12 – 07:11
Just a brief note to say that Charlie Bullock is still with us as of 31st December 2011 – !! I’m sure all bus preservationists will join me in wishing him a very Happy New Year.
Guy Stanbury
22/01/13 – 11:15
Sadly, Charlie Bullock died on 17th August 2012 aged 97. A link to an article in the Scarborough Evening News is here www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/
John Darwent
22/01/13 – 12:29
Is it coincidence or providence that Charlie’s ride to eternity had gained a mournful looking grille by the time the Final Ride was taken…..?
David Oldfield
23/01/13 – 07:00
My partner and I were privileged to have attended Charlie’s funeral in Scarborough, and although it was sad to lose an old friend, the proceedings were far from being a sad affair. There was warmth and humour throughout the service, and the crematorium was absolutely packed – no mean feat for someone of 97. Charlie went in to the tune of ‘Sentimental Journey’, and we made our way out afterwards to ‘When the Saints Go Marching In’, just as he had planned. His coffin (which he’d had in storage for many years, ready as Charlie put it, for when he was “called up to Head Office!”) – was draped with a United destination blind and floral tribute. Charlie even managed to put in a ‘personal appearance’ partway through the proceedings. With the help of a pre-recorded CD, he thanked everyone for coming to his ‘event’, and told us that he was the advance party and that he would no doubt see us all again at some stage! His ‘Old Beauty’ FHN923 performed her duty as Charlie’s personal transport admirably, in the hallowed company of United Bristol L5G LHN860, Doncaster AEC Regal III MDT222, and East Yorkshire open-top AEC Routemaster ALM65B. I have never been to a funeral before where so many people came out with a smile on their face. A fitting tribute to Charlie, a busman through and through, with a lovely sense of fun right up to the end.
Brendan Smith
23/01/13 – 11:23
Brendan, how I wish that I’d had the honour to meet Charlie, who was obviously a wonderful and enchantingly “mischievous” character as well as being a dedicated busman. Just a slight deviation from this Bristol topic, but I too have the greatest admiration for the superb cream and olive green livery of the United coaches – dignity with boldness, not easy to achieve and sadly almost totally extinct today. My happiest memory of the livery is from my West Yorkshire conducting days on service 76 (Skipton – Tadcaster). Connections at important points were always specified on WYRCC running boards and my favourite was when we were due to leave Harrogate for Skipton at 4.00pm :- “Connection must be made with United car for Liverpool due at 3.57 pm.” The United “CAR” was always one of the nine magnificent Leyland Royal Tigers, in olive green and cream of course, and it was never late as far as I recall !!
Chris Youhill
24/01/13 – 07:13
You have a way with words Chris, and “enchantingly mischievous” is very apt. Your comment about the ‘Harrogate Connection’ is fascinating – that really was customer service. Today, in this age of competitive competitiveness, such a sensible thing would be totally unacceptable. The Competition Commission would be down on West Yorkshire and United like a ton of cylinder heads. (Note: why is there only one Competition Commission? Alright for them eh?). Harrogate was a still a colourful place for buses and coaches when my family moved there in 1966, and United provided vehicles in red and cream, cream and red, and cream and olive green. They operated two Lodekka FSF6Bs on the Ripon – Harrogate 126 route, and various LS and MW buses and coaches could also be seen at points throughout the day. Also calling at Harrogate Bus Station (which we very nearly lost thanks to Meddlesome Maggie) were the coaches of Northern General and North Western, and the fascinating blue buses of Samuel Ledgard. A lovely time to be a thirteen year old bus spotter.
Brendan Smith
24/01/13 – 11:06
United and the NGT Group had a number of shared routes and return tickets were valid on either companies buses, in addition to that, in areas where several routes merged and they were joined by Newcastle Corporation vehicles, in the event of a breakdown the conductor/driver could issue a slip and transfer passengers to any vehicle. Silly me, I forgot to mention one very important point, at the time buses were classified as Public Service Vehicles and were regulated by the area Traffic Commissioners.
Ronnie Hoye
25/01/13 – 06:39
As you rightly say Brendan, Harrogate Bus Station was a wonderful place in those days, and there was a marvellous “class distinction” measure in force. West Yorkshire buses on the main 53 service to Bradford via Otley left from a stand near the railway station end, while we of Ledgard’s on our hourly departure set out from a stand half way down the bus station under a sign declaring “Bradford (S.Ledgard)”- obviously to remind us that we were extremely lucky to be allowed within West Yorkshire’s Temple of Excellence. One other little gem concerning the 4.00pm service 76 to Skipton, on Fridays at least, was a duplicate to Burley in Wharfedale operated by a coach and driver hired from Wray’s of Summerbridge in the command of a West Yorkshire conductor.
Chris Youhill
26/01/13 – 06:32
Chris, your mention of Wray’s of Summerbridge (as it then was) reminded me that their coaches could often be seen on hire to West Yorkshire. Indeed they could frequently be seen resting contentedly next to WY’s Bristol/ECW machines on the forecourt of Harrogate’s Grove Park depot, especially in the summer months. Wray’s even had some Yeates-bodied coaches in their fleet (Riviera and Europa spring to mind), the flamboyant style of which contrasted markedly with the classic lines of WY’s LS and MW coaches of the period. Wray’s were taken over a few years ago by Eddie Brown of Helperby, and Wray’s attractive and distinctive livery was sadly phased out quite soon afterwards. Unfortunately, Eddie Brown’s livery is yet another variation of the bland ‘white coach’ scheme seen in many parts of the country, with odd bits of colour added to try and differentiate one operator’s vehicles from another. Eddie Brown’s coaches have swoops and swirls along the sides in maroon and orange, and it’s reasonably attractive, but to me it’s ‘just another white coach’, and lacks the ‘class’ of the Wray’s livery. Nearby Dodsworth’s Coaches of Boroughbridge show how it could be done, with their very distinctive and handsome livery of all over orange with a black roof. Simple, but stunning.
Brendan Smith
26/01/13 – 15:02
Copyright J.A.Charles
Thought that an up to date photo of one of this batch may be helpful. This was taken at a rally at Croft motor racing circuit last year.
Andrew Charles
27/01/13 – 07:53
Thank you for posting the photos Andrew. A fine looking coach indeed, further enhanced by that famous cream and olive green livery. The position of the rear number plate is interesting, and presumably this was specified by United. Usually on this type of coach it was located immediately below the rear windows, approximately where 304 GHN’s lovely scroll fleetname is. The polished front wheel nuts add the final touch – they are just as they would have been on delivery, and ‘very Bristol’.
United Automobile Services 1954 Bristol LS6B ECW C39F
Another LS6B coach belonging to United this coach instead of having roof windows had glass panels depicting the service that it ran. The first panel says “Tyne Tees” the second panel starts with a “T” is 6 or 7 letters long it could be “Thames” and the third panel I am sure says “Service”. When I took this shot much newer coaches would of been doing that run as this coach would of been about 12 years old at the time. This photo was taken at Whitby in the summer of 1966 the coach is on route to Newcastle, its starting point being Scarborough more than likely. For anybody who knows or more than likely remembers the place this photo was taken you are right there should be a very large street light just behind the coach, “I’m afraid it had to go as it ruined the shot”.
Full lists of Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The lettering on this lovely LS6B did as you say state Tyne-Tees-Thames Service. Although most LS coaches were fitted with Gardner HLW engines, some operators did specify the Bristol LSW unit instead, including United. The LSW was basically a horizontal version of the AVW engine used in many K/L-types and LD Lodekkas. Although not quite matching the Gardners for longevity or fuel economy, the Bristol engines were quite smooth running units nonetheless. I seem to recall LS6B exhausts emitted a nice crisp bark too.
Brendan Smith
08/11/13 – 14:42
I travelled on the United service from Victoria to the North East 3/4 times a year throughout the fifties and early sixties. I well remember these coaches. They also had Tyne Tees and Thames printed in black on the upper part of the side windows together with towns en route. Overnight services had central blue night lights in the roof so passengers could sleep. I can remember one of the first changed routes journeys north so to use the M1. Does any model manufacturer past or present have an Bristol LS in the United TTT livery?
Harry
09/11/13 – 05:55
Harry, EFE made a very nice model of a United LS coach in Tyne Tees livery a few years ago – 1005 (formerly UC5): 305 GHN. Although the genuine coach was an LS6B, the model was based on EFE’s MW coach casting. This gave the body a slightly less curved rear profile than the LS would have had, but nonetheless evoked the spirit of these fine machines admirably.
United Automobile Services 1955 Bristol LS5G ECW B45F
Photographed at the Corner Cafe Scarborough is a bus version of the Bristol LS5G owned by United Automobile, there has been two coach versions on this site before click the Bristol LS link below to view them. United had large numbers of one man operated single deck vehicles as it had many country routes and a lot of countryside between the towns it serviced. Keeping costs down by one man operation and light vehicles like the LS using less diesel meant country routes could be maintained.
Lovely to see this excellent picture. United did indeed have many Bristol LS types on country routes before they gave way to the later MW. I have heard it said that wherever you were – from Berwick-on-Tweed all the way down to Bridlington – a United LS was certain to pull up at your bus stop, given time!
Nice also to see the Corner Cafe. It has been a favourite image on Scarborough postcards throughout the decades – nearly always with a United vehicle parked at the terminus nearby! Sadly, when I visited the resort last autumn, the cafe had finally been demolished to make way for a new development of flats. The end of an era indeed.
United Automobile Services 1950 Bristol K6B ECW H30/26R
Here we have a line up of three United Automobile buses in Scarborough bus station. the one in the centre is as the specification above having a Bristol AVW 8.1 litre six cylinder diesel engine. In 1965 all United double decker buses had the Bristol engine, 20 had been converted from Gardner 5LW engine I think they needed the power of the Bristol engine. The single decker on the left is a 1965 Bristol SUL4A registration CHN 3C fleet number S3 with an ECW B36F body. I think United only had five of these lightweight vehicles mainly used on lightly trafficked routes. There was two types of Bristol SU the SUS (Small Underfloor Short) and the SUL (Small Underfloor Long) both versions were powered by an Albion 4.1 litre, four cylinder diesel engine and had a 5 speed synchromesh gearbox The bus on the right or should I say half a bus is a 1956 Bristol LS5G registration 637 CHN fleet number U237 with an ECW B41F body. There is a much better shot of a United Bristol LSG here.
28/10/15 – 13:22
NHN906 was the last surviving Bristol K6B in the United fleet. There were half a dozen of them at Scarborough for many years for use on the town services there. After they were displaced by new FLFs in the mid-sixties, they moved north to Northumberland. BH1 &2 (NHN 901/2) went to Whitley Bay where they were mainly used on the Whitley Bay town service. BH3-6 (NHN 903-6) went to Ashington. When United renumbered their fleet into an all numerical system at the beginning of 1969, there were only two survivors, BH1 & 6 which became 51 & 52. NHN 901 probably never operated with it’s new number. It was still in service in December 1968, but a few days into the new year, I noted that it was parked out of use behind the depot at Whitley Bay. NHN906 at continued for a few more months at Ashington. I occasionally saw it in the 444 from Bedlington to Ashington via North Blyth. It also sometimes appeared as a substitute for an FLF on the Newcastle services. It appears to have been taken out of service in June 1969.
John Gibson
29/10/15 – 06:21
Small correction to the original text. The SU had a five speed constant mesh (not synchromesh) gearbox. Behind the apparent uniformity of vehicle types in the Tilling fleets of the time lay a difference between operators in the engine choice. Some would not countenance anything other than a Gardner in double deck and large saloon orders. Others were happy to accept the Bristol engine which was cheaper to buy and speedier in delivery. Gardners were highly sought after by many manufacturers, and output was not particularly high. In retrospect, it testifies to the ultra conservative iron grip that Hugh Gardner maintained upon the company that production methods barely altered for over 50 years from the introduction of the LW series in 1931. Given the apparent insatiable demand for the Patricroft products, Gardner rested on its laurels, and no real effort to increase output was properly addressed. Back then, the idea that Gardner would ultimately cease to exist was inconceivable.
Mansfield District Traction Company Limited 1954 Bristol LS6G ECW C39F
This shot is a touch on the yellow side but I think it is worth posting as this vehicle had quite a history having had six owners in its lifetime that I have been able to find out about.
Thanks to the Bristol SU website for the following information.
06/54 – Mansfield District Traction fleet no 205
01/68 – Eastern Counties Omnibus fleet no LS998
02/72 – Gosport & Fareham Omnibus fleet no 33
02/74 – North Downs Rural Transport
07/74 – Ives Weston-on-Trent
02/75 – Kingfisher Weston-on-Trent
02/76 – Out of service I presume it went to scrap at this point although I could be wrong, if I am please leave a comment. Either way just short of 22 years service was a good innings, just goes to show how well built buses were back then “they don’t build them like that anymore I’m afraid”. It would be interesting to know how many miles were on the clock and whether it still had its original engine even if it had been rebuilt a few times.
To view a list of Bristol vehicle abbreviations click here.
The longevity of a PSV of this era was of course determined by the willingness and capability of the operator to prepare the vehicle for its’ CoF examination. Buses didn’t have a conventional MoT as they now do, instead the bus came new with a 7 year CoF at the expiry of which a recertification was required. The length of the next CoF was determined by the work done to the bus in preparation for the inspection. Most big operators brought the buses into their central works and overhauled them leading to the issue of a long second ticket after which the cycle was repeated with the tickets getting shorter each time. The introduction of freedom from defect type MoT’s made this system obsolete
Andrew
12/11/11 – 06:17
I was the Managing Director of Kingfisher Coaches Ltd, and feel most embarrassed to confirm that Bristol MW PNN 774 was sent for scrap on my orders. If only I had realised that it was so interesting to so many enthusiasts I would have donated it gladly. It was running perfectly well and had given us outstanding service, but it was almost out of C.O.F. and the upholstery was very shabby. But the reason for quick disposal was the D.O.E. examiner was on my back wanting to inspect it and not being very popular with him he did not approve of any bus or coach over 10 years old. Sorry folks.
Robert K. Walker
12/11/11 – 14:47
In an old British Transport production ‘A Ticket to Ride’ made in 1953, one of the films is about visiting the Peak District, does anyone know if the MW coach shown a few times around Ladybower Reservoir and at the start leaving Grindleford for Hathersage is a Midland General or a Mansfield District vehicle, there are also some other shots of North Western saloons both in Matlock, then passing the winking man rock above Leek and in Buxton, quite a good film.
Roger Broughton
13/11/11 – 07:56
One unusual feature about Mansfield District was that they took over an independent in 1958 which gave them three Duple bodied AEC Reliances which had originated with Creamline of Bordon. I believe that these may have been the first Reliances to enter a Tilling fleet. Even though Mansfield District was a majority AEC fleet at the time, they didn’t last that long, I’ve often thought they must have been superior to the LS’s as coaches, but perhaps MDT didn’t like the thought of having third hand vehicles in the fleet!
Chris Barker
13/11/11 – 10:52
Shrug off your guilt, Robert, you weren’t to know. Preserved buses, like all memorabilia, often survive as much on pure luck as planning. But don’t go out alone on dark nights for a few weeks!
Chris Hebbron
14/11/11 – 07:58
In the early to mid 1970s I used to work for North Downs at weekends, and drove this LS from time to time. I recall that it was quite a nice machine, and tackled the climb on the A25 up to Newlands Corner in fine style. I don’t agree that the Reliance with the AH470 would have been a better coach – the Gardner had much better torque characteristics than the AEC, which permitted higher gearing to offset the limited 1700rpm governed engine speed, and both types had five speed synchromesh gearboxes.
Roger Cox
14/11/11 – 17:51
That is a very interesting list Stephen, because I believe that the original routes were simply 100 up for town services and 200 up for ‘country area’ routes. The others were a result of takeovers, 1&7, 2 and 3 were ex Ebor, who used these numbers, 4 was ex Bevan and Barker, who didn’t. Some time after this list, some numbers in the 70’s were added as a result of an agreement with East Midland to co-ordinate services on the Mansfield – Warsop – Shirebrook road, hence 4 disappeared. One thing I found recently among my possessions was a complete list of destinations from an MDT blind and also a complete list of via points which I achieved (from a Lodekka) by stepping up, turning the handle, stepping down to write, then repeating the process one display at a time! Unfortunately I wasn’t quite sure which routes some of them appertained to although some town services were so short, they didn’t warrant a via point.
Chris Barker
15/11/11 – 07:10
Picking up on Roger’s point, here is a widespread belief that Gardner engines didn’t make good coaches, but I wonder if it’s more that both designing them and driving them required a different mindset. Most coaches get into top gear relatively early and then achieve high speed by revving the engine faster than they would in the intermediate gears. But I recently had a ride on the preserved ex-Eastern Scottish Alexander M type Seddon Pennine 7, which was a revelation. The 6HLXB engine is governed at 1850rpm. Top gear (6th) came in at what seemed to be about 62mph, and according to Wikipedia the theoretical top speed of these was 87!
Peter Williamson
15/11/11 – 15:59
Although I personally prefer the RELH6L the RELH6G was a superb beast. I have ploughed the motorways as a passenger of many RELH6Gs and they were always man enough for the job.
David Oldfield
16/11/11 – 07:27
On the subject of Gardner engines, Cambus/Viscount (now part of Stagecoach) where I worked for a while in the 1990s, had a trio of 1988 vintage Optare bodied Olympians powered by the turbocharged 6LXCT engine. One, E502 LFL, was allocated to Oundle depot for the X65 Peterborough – Northampton service, but when it went into Peterborough for overhaul, it occasionally found its way on to other services in that city before it went back to its proper home. I well recollect a few occasions of driving this bus on the 351 service between Peterborough and Huntingdon, which followed the old dual carriageway A1 (now obliterated by the four lane A1M). This vehicle, which had the Leyland G2 gearbox, could reach an indicated speed of 70mph without great difficulty, though stopping the thing was altogether another matter in which prayer played a part!
Roger Cox
16/11/11 – 07:27
I should point out that my comment about MDT’s acquired Reliances was more in relation to their internal appeal rather than their mechanical propensities! However, since the discussion has moved this way, it would seem appropriate to mention that Mansfield’s sister company, Midland General took three RELH6G’s in 1964, registered 1384 -1386 R. I think there has been confusion about their classification ever since which I will attempt to put right. 1385/1386 R had dual purpose seats identical to their DP bus shell MW’s, also a mixture of sliding and hopper ventilators on each side window and semi-automatic transmission, they were officially DP51F. 1384 R, however was a very different machine, it had 49 coach seats, fixed side windows and forced air ventilation and a manual gearbox. Now they may have been delivered all same and this one altered later by MGO, I don’t know, but I was fortunate enough to travel on it a couple of times and boy could it go! The ride was exhilarating to say the least and amazingly quiet too! Does anyone know if there were many other manual box RE’s? In my humble opinion, the ECW coach bodied Bristol RE, when fitted with it’s very ample destination display, electric two piece doors and wrap-around screens was one of the finest vehicles ever to run on British roads, leaving out top link coaching work but for motorway express duties, never bettered even to this day!
Chris Barker
16/11/11 – 16:07
All early REs were manual, semi-autos only came in with the Series 2 (allowing for a few at the changeover). The early RELH/ECW (most of which were Gardners) were unassailable for their quiet, smooth ride – a perfect long distance coach.
David Oldfield
14/06/12 – 18:22
Roger Broughton asks about the bus in the British Transport Film. It’s Mansfield District 201 (PNN 770) from the same 1954 batch as the above vehicle.
Southern National Omnibus Company 1953 Bristol LS6G ECW C41F
Seen heading along York Place, Harrogate at the end of a Trans-Pennine run is Southern National 1299 (OTT 98), a 1953 Bristol LS6G with ECW C41F coachwork. Resplendent in iconic Royal Blue livery, this coach was part of the last batch to be built with the traditional Royal Blue roof-mounted luggage rack, which was accessed by a set of foldaway steps at the rear of the vehicle. It is a fine example of the underfloor-engined Royal Blue fleet operational in the 1950’s and 1960’s, and it is good to see 1299 wearing its original ‘dark roof’ version of the livery once again. (In 1958, with the arrival of the MW coaches, the livery was altered to a half blue/half cream layout, with dark blue up to waist rail level, and cream above). The 1953 batch of coaches for operation on Royal Blue services were also the last to display ‘Royal Blue Coach Service’ illuminated panels above the side windows. Subsequent deliveries of LS and MW coaches sported the more usual curved roof glasses in the cant rail panels instead.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
12/01/14 – 07:47
Despite the registration there was nothing OTT about this. Rather understated luxury and quality with the 6LW offering a long legged, relaxed, lope in the pre motorway era.
David Oldfield
12/01/14 – 11:12
Thanks for posting, Brendan. I have read in different places of the shape caused by the presence of the rooftop luggage rack as being “Camel Back”. Rather flattering to a camel, perhaps!
Pete Davies
12/01/14 – 13:04
There was always something special about Royal Blue coaches and these last-gasp versions of the traditional style are no exception. One point, were the roof racks ever used?
Chris Hebbron
13/01/14 – 08:44
I thought you might like to add this picture to the current OTT 98 thread as it shows a similar preserved vehicle but in the cream roof colours.
Ken Jones
13/01/14 – 08:44
The roof luggage carriers were used – I have a copy of a picture (not my copyright though!) of the driver loading luggage on LS car 1292 – in the ‘cream roof’ era, so post 1958. The reason for the livery change was not ‘cosmetic’ but a practical one – I will look out the exact details in next day or two !
Peter Delaney
13/01/14 – 09:46
I’m wondering whether this is 1297, OTT 96. Both 1297 and 1299 are preserved but 1297 went to the Netherlands at some stage.
Geoff Kerr
Close up of registration and fleet number of posted shot.
13/01/14 – 11:25
I thought this photo may be of interest. It is OTT 98 after sale to the dealer W. North, Sherburn-in-Elmet, seen at their premises during the Summer of 1970. It was quite a shock to see this here, as I had shortly before been on holiday in North Devon and seen these LS’s still working hard for a living. It was still in splendid condition here and I remember hoping that it would find a suitable. sympathetic new owner. At the time it seemed far too modern to be considered for preservation. Fortunately OTT 96 is still with us.
John Stringer
13/01/14 – 13:45
Thanks – it does look a bit like 96 though!
Geoff Kerr
I must admit I did have to go back to the original shot to be sure.
13/01/14 – 15:17
Both 1297 (OTT 96) and 1299 (OTT 98) are still with us. The former is in The Netherlands as part of the Leek collection at Monickendam, and OTT 98 is now part of the West Country Historic Omnibus and Transport Trust collection, having had a complete engine rebuild in 2007 and was hand painted back into original 1953 livery in 2009. I am delighted to be 1299’s current custodian and sponsor. I look forward to reading Peter’s explanation as to the reasons for the change in roof colour in 1957. Incidentally all this 1953 batch, 1293-9 and 2200-2, were down-seated to C39F following mid-life refurbishment at ECW Lowestoft, in 1961, and 1299 remains so.
John Grigg
13/01/14 – 16:42
Just a reminder you can see a picture of OTT 98 and one of OTT 43 from 2012 on this site at the Royal Blue Run gallery.
Ken Jones
13/01/14 – 17:40
I attach a photo of 1299 taken in the early 70’s which was taken on Madeira Drive Brighton following a HCVC London-Brighton run. This shows it with a blue roof as it is now preserved so it seems that the roof has changed colour a number of times over the years, I agree that the blue roof looks better but this is purely a personal preference I know.
Diesel Dave
14/01/14 – 08:22
The ‘incident’ which led to the change in colour of the roof of Royal Blue cars was as below:- On August 2nd 1957, the 2.35 pm summer only service from Plymouth to Bournemouth, was a Bristol L coach – probably car 1239 – being driven John Whitlock when its roof was grazed by a plane landing at Exeter Airport. The undercarriage hit the top of the coach, breaking both skylights. He drove to the control tower, with the somewhat shaken passengers on board, and reported the incident. The pilot apparently had not seen a coach, and following his reporting the incident, there was an official enquiry, which John was asked to attend. The incident was reported in the local Exeter newspaper, the ‘Express and Echo’, on 3rd August 1957, under the heading “Bus roof ‘skimmed’ by plane” and “Observers ‘saw nothing unusual’”. From the newspaper account we learn that the coach was going along the Exeter – Honiton road, when the roof was “’skimmed’ by a twin engined Mosquito going in to land at Exeter Airport. The plane landed without a mark on it and the coach had a slight dent in the roof. The bus driver felt a slight bump. As there were no other cars on the road at the time he assumed it must have something to do with a plane that had passed low over him. Wing Cmdr. R J B Pearse, manager of the airport, said that a slight dent was found in the roof of the bus, but when an inspection was made of the Mosquito there was not a mark to be found, either on the tyres or the paintwork. The pilot said he had felt nothing at all. ‘We can only assume that the plane did touch the bus’ said Wing Cmdr Pearse. The pilot’s name was withheld”. The subsequent enquiry resulted in an accident report card being filed with the RAF, and that adds further information. The aircraft was a Mosquito Mk 35, number TA724, of the 3/4 CAACU, part of 61 Group, Home Command. The accident occurred at 16.55 on 2nd August 1957, at the end of a 2 hour 10 minute flight out and back from Exeter. This particular flight had been for Army firing practice. The pilot, 35 year old Flt Lt K Munson, was experienced, with 195 flying hours on Mosquitos, and 1567 flying hours overall. The lighting conditions were described as ‘dull’. At the end of the exercise, the pilot had joined the circuit and landed, but he was totally “unaware that his aircraft had struck the single decker bus (sic) travelling on the A30 road which runs adjacent to the airport”. The report also records that “damage was caused to the roof of the bus. No damage was sustained to the aircraft.” It was considered that the organisation ‘at station level’ was at fault, as they knew of the danger of a collision between aircraft and vehicles, but had “made inadequate efforts to have remedial action taken.” The A30 passed across the approach to runway 13, at a distance of 50 yards. There were no traffic signals or warning notices on the road, and there was a tall hedge bounding the road which “would effectively prevent the pilot seeing the bus and vice versa”. No blame was attached to the pilot (who was making a low approach in order to touch down early on a short runway) or the driver. As a result, 150 yards of the runway 13/31 were ‘sterilized’, and a local flying order issued to warn pilots of the dangers likely to be met on the approach to runway 13, whilst the roof of Royal Blue coaches was changed from dark blue to cream, to make them more conspicuous from the air.
Peter Delaney
14/01/14 – 11:48
I’ve just checked my original his-res image, and it definitely is OTT 98, confirmed by my notes taken at the time I wasn’t aware that it was also preserved – that’s nice to know.
John Stringer
14/01/14 – 12:27
The give away in the photo that it can only be OTT 98 is that the words “Dorset Transport Circle” are shown in the “via” part of the destination display. DTC owned this coach for well over 30 years and rallied it extensively for most of that time before generously donating it to WHOTT in 2006.
