Marshalls of Bradford 1951 Guy Arab III Windover C33F
This coach first appeared on the do you know page and is from the Paul Haywood collection information supplied by John Kaye provided the history regarding this very nice half canopy Guy Arab III photographed at Blackpool in 1963. This coach was bought new by Scraggs of Cheadle which is halfway between Stoke-on-Trent and Uttoxeter, Staffordshire. They did not keep it very long as it was bought the following year 1952 by Ripponden & District Motors, Ripponden is a small village about five or six miles to the west of Halifax, Yorkshire. There main business was light haulage in the Yorkshire/Lancashire area they had two nick names from people who new them, ‘Rippi Dicks’ and ‘Rush and Dash’ but if you were to ask an employee where they worked the answer they would always come back with would be ‘down district’. Hebble Motors of Halifax bought out Ripponden & District Motors coach excursions in 1957 and left them to concentrate wholly on there haulage business. Four years before being taken over they sold the Guy on to Marshalls of Bradford. If you look carefully you can just see a name plate on the near side just below the saloon window it reads “Highway Princess” did Marshalls name it or did it always have a name. If you know please leave a comment.
09/02/11 – 05:49
This picture brought back happy memories! A group of Students from Bradford Grammar School hired this coach from Marshalls in 1959 for a trip to Merseyside to see the first production Atlantean, and also take in Birkenhead Corporation buses. It certainly carried the Highway Princess name at that time. As an aside, its was interesting to note that at the same time as Wallasey were commissioning the Atlantean, Birkenhead had just put a batch of PD2/40’s with exposed radiators into service. Examples of both types (FHF 451 from Wallasey and FBG 910 from Birkenhead) have made it into preservation.
David Bate
24/11/12 – 08:26
I though you might like to attach this colour view of the Marshall’s Guy/Windover coach to the existing article. Compared with the Blackpool shot, it has acquired a rather less stylish pair of wing mirrors and lost its chieftain, but is otherwise unchanged. The picture was taken on 25/8/68 by which time the vehicle was in the ownership of Kirby’s, the well known dealer at Anston (?or Dinnington) near Sheffield. I wonder whether it found a new owner, or was simply at a staging post on its way to Barnsley or similar.
Alan Murray-Rust
24/11/12 – 12:47
Rather a nice colour picture of it. It still appears to be sporting the Marshall fleetname on the side panel as seen in the B&W shot.
Eric Bawden
28/01/13 – 07:12
I well remember this vehicle whilst I was at school in the 60s as it regularly passed the bottom of our street. It normally seemed to live outside the owners home in Kensington Street Bradford, though as Marshalls owned 2 coaches, the other one must have lived elsewhere. Marshall’s acquired 3 vehicles when Ripponden & District stopped running coaches in 1957, these being a one and a half decker Commer with an SME registration, the AEC Regal IV with Whitson body which did not go to Hebble who took over R & Ds other vehicles and PEH 261. It may be that Marshalls were agents for R & D in Bradford as they had an office in Swaine Street, and that the vehicles were bought to continue in business, as these were the first vehicles owned as far as I am aware. The vehicles retained R & D colours though I seem to remember PEH at on time being all over cream with blue flash. The fleet name on the side is not actually the company’s name but a leaping tiger which was used on the side of R & Ds coaches and presumably was never painted over. Although not quite the same, it was similar to the tiger leaping through the hoop on Ellen Smiths coaches.
David Hudson
28/01/13 – 13:34
It’s pleasing to note that the original purchaser of this coach, Scraggs, is still very much in business, operating local bus services in the Stoke area.
Chris Barker
29/01/13 – 06:37
A blast from the past ! This thread started before I became aware of the OBP website and I missed this one. I well remember this vehicle and Marshalls who did quite a lot of work in my local area of Bradford. I was on the Bradford Grammar School trip mentioned by David Bate who I remember from School. I also remember being on a male only party up into the Dales which used this vehicle. There certainly were the traditional crates of ale aboard – the only problem as I recall being that the coach had been booked the following day for a Mother’s Union outing from my local Church. Enough said.
Gordon Green
09/11/13 – 17:52
I’m only a year late in spotting Alan’s 24.11.12 post and mention of Kirkby’s (with two Ks). Kirkby’s were a coach dealership at North Anston on the north side of the A57 between Sheffield and Worksop – which is just south of Dinnington. They were also an operator in their own right with O licences for two operations – Kirkby’s of Harthill (near Anston) – with a rich blue livery (similar to Sammie’s) – and J O Andrew of Sheffield – with an attractive two tone green livery. History has made all of these strands into important players. i) Kirkby’s was the first of several new owners (after the family) of Plaxtons. In yet another case of reverse take-over, they took on the more famous name (Plaxton) and the current Anston Plaxton site is indeed the original Kirkby site. [Remember that East Lancs/Darwen bought Optare in recent years but “reversed” to become known as Optare. Same sort of thing.] Kirkby’s, at the time, were also a major Vauhall/Bedford dealership in the Rotherham and Worksop areas. ii) Kirkby’s decided to pull out of operating and the Andrew’s operation in Sheffield became a PSV driving school. On deregulation in the ’80s, Andrew’s came back into operating – but having been a classy coach operator they became one of the Sheffield pirate bus operators. They became the core of what became one of the biggest and most successful independents in competition with SYPTE and in their final incarnation were known as Yorkshire Terrier. This operation was in the latter days part of the Carter/Yorkshire Traction empire and, of course, in 2005 became part of the Stagecoach Bus UK. Stagecoach is now a major player in the City of Sheffield. iii) Kirkby’s became Plaxton, now owned by Alexander-Dennis who have Brian Souter as a major share-holder. Andrew’s became Yorkshire Terrier who eventually became a Stagecoach company. [So now they’re back together in common ownership?]
David Oldfield
10/11/13 – 07:58
Oooo – it’s doin’ me ‘ead in!
Stephen Ford
10/11/13 – 09:38
Sorry, Stephen….. [well I’m not really].
David Oldfield
11/07/14 – 16:26
Just came across this photo, the original owners also ran a fleet of lorries, my Dad drove for them in the early 60’s. The company went out of business late 60’s and there is no connection with Scraggs of Bucknall, Stoke on Trent as reported on here!
Red & White Services 1949 Guy Arab III Duple L27/26RD
Sometime ago a comment was sent in by David Wilder for the Eastern Scottish AEC Regent posting regarding Red & White having had very pleasing Duple body Guy Arab IIIs. Above is a great shot contributed by Andrew Charles who took this shot in 2005 of a very well preserved Red & White Arab III lowbridge Duple. Andrew also forwarded the following copy to go with the shot: “This shot was taken in the grounds of what was then Stroud College during the running day organised by the Stroud RE Group. This site is now under houses but the event goes from strength to strength at the site of the new college. The significance of the bus being at Stroud was of course that in pre Bristol Omnibus days Stroud was a Red & White outpost, we tend to think of them as a Welsh / Forest of Dean operator but they did once go further afield.” The Red & White Guy is not quite as elaborately decorated as the Eastern Scottish Regent as it only has the one decoration band above the lower saloon windows although there as been a United Services posting with decoration above and below the lower saloon windows. I suppose the purchaser had the choice of where and if it was decorated, I have included below the two shots mentioned the Eastern Scottish on the Left and the United Services on the right
Photograph by P Haywood
This posting is of course open to comments and any other shots of decorative Duple double deckers.
Main photograph & part copy contributed by Andrew Charles
Another Red & White subsidiary, Cheltenham & District, took delivery of five virtually identical vehicles to the above in 1950/51, running them until 1966. There was discussion with the Eastern Scottish Regent as to whether there were only lowbridge versions of this handsome bodywork, The book ‘Cheltenham’s Buses 1939-1980’ shows them to be H31/26R, and from a close look at the photos, I believe that they were highbridge examples. They, too, had the thick aluminium strip, although they did not have a safety bar across the front upstairs windows inside. Fleet numbers were 74-78 (JDG786-790).
Chris Hebbron
15/03/11 – 06:24
Of course, Red & White also supplied some new Duple-bodied Guy Arab Mk111’s to its subsidiary fleets, including 4 to Venture of Basingstoke (HOT 391-4) with highbridge bodies and 2 lowbirdge examples to Newbury & District Motor Services (FMO 515/6), along with a highbridge example (FMO 517). The latter was originally intended for Venture, and after a short time the Basingstoke examples were transferred to the N&D fleet in the interests of standardisation. All then remained in service at Newbury until withdrawal in 1968. You can read the full story in my new book The Newbury & District Motor Services Story.
Paul Lacey
15/05/11 – 17:59
One day I was driving towards Bolton through the Lancashire town of Leigh. I am sure I saw a Guy Arab in Red and White very faded colours parked in a mill. I assume it had been or was being used as a staff bus for the mill workers. This must have been around the mid 1980’s. Has anyone any information on the fate of the vehicle.
R D Hughes
29/08/11 – 08:07
These where ordered by Red & White; but arrived shortly after a depot swop with Bristol Omnibus; Stroud and Cheltenham went to B.O.C. while R & W had services in the Forest of Dean/Wye Valley/Hereford from B.O.C. They had high bodies no rear doors, and spent most of their days on the St. Marks routes, in Cheltenham. Lovely buses even to the end of their days, The Red & White ones were low bodies with doors and ran in the Forest/Monmouth area. The sad point being Cheltenham District did not fit in with B.O.C. as well as it did with Red & White. Red & White retained its Coach operation, at Montpellier Spa Depot, for a number of years, before basing its Cheltenham Coaches at the Black & White Coach Station for a number of years, until the birth of National Express.
Photograph by “unknown”if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Tynemouth and District 1949 Guy Arab III Pickering H56R
Here’s another odd ball for you, it’s a Guy Arab from Northern General’s Tynemouth and Wakefields subsidiary. I would guess from the registration it’s from about the late 40’s. I don’t know how many were in the batch or who built the bodies, but they’re unlike any other of Northern’s Guy’s that I know of. Northern were huge fans of the Gardner 5LW, and the vast majority of their Guy’s were fitted with them, but for reasons unknown to myself these vehicles came with a Meadows engine, were they perhaps re bodies? The engines were later changed and many had the 5LW fitted as replacements, but at least one of them ended up with an AEC unit, this ones also got the Indian Chief radiator cap, I wonder if that survived? I can remember them, but by the time I started at Percy Main they were long gone.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
23/05/12 – 09:32
It looks very like a locally built Northern Coachbuilders body. Sheffield used them as an alternative to Weymann. Sheffield’s last were delivered in 1950, I think NCB closed shortly afterwards.
Ian Wild
23/05/12 – 09:33
This appears to be a Northern Caochbuilders bodied Guy Arab III Tynemouth had some similar chassis with Weymann bodywork Northern General also bought NCB bodied Guys but these had a short life with NGT.
Chris Hough
23/05/12 – 09:35
The bodies on these Meadows 6DC630 engined Arab IIIs, of which there were ten delivered in 1949, were by Pickering, and reputedly had metal frames. This picture, and some accompanying information, may also be found on this site:- //www.flickr.com/ From this, it appears that all the Meadows engined Arabs, apart from No. 169, which received a 5LW, were re-engined with AEC 7.7s. The Meadows unit was very compact – like contemporary Dennis and Daimler designs, the timing gears were located at the rear of the engine – and the Meadows engined Arab had a short bonnet that could not accommodate the 6LW. Most operators that purchased Meadows engines replaced them with alternative power plants at the first C of F renewal or earlier. Though powerful, this motor had reliability problems – it was rumoured that the troublesome crankshafts were sourced from eastern Europe – and, by the standards of the time, it was deemed to be fuel thirsty, though it would probably compare favourably with the dipsomaniac beasts of the present day.
Roger Cox
23/05/12 – 09:36
I’m only guessing but, going by the style of the upper deck front windows I’d say they were Northern Coach Builders bodies. It ties in with the operating area, anyway.
Eric Bawden
23/05/12 – 09:37
Coach builder was Northern Coach Builders of locally Newcastle.Yorkshire Woollen had some identical buses.The photograph must have been taken on a hot day judging the way the driver has had to open the windscreen. If only you could do that on say a Wright bodied Volvo.
Philip Carlton
23/05/12 – 09:38
What a wonderful posting! and a perfect compliment to last year’s debate about Pickering utility bodies, because that’s who built these. There were ten of them, FT 6565-74 and they were delivered in 1949. I believe these were Pickering’s only post war double deckers. It has a strong hint of Northern Coachbuilders about it and as NCB probably had a full order book at the time, perhaps Pickering were able to offer a quicker delivery and of course, they had done a lot of work for Northern General previously. I think the result was a very fine looking vehicle!
Chris Barker
Ronnie – the body on this Guy Arab Mark Three is by Northern Coachbuilders. Northern Coachbuilders were based in Newcastle and bodied both buses and trolleybuses for Newcastle Corporation amongst others and ceased trading around 1951. Northern General also had some Arab Threes with Northern Coachbuilders bodies. One such bus was 1236 BCN 136, which had the typical Guy Arab ‘snout’. The Meadows engine, whilst having a cubic capacity 10.32 litres was fairly compact and didn’t need the extended bonnet required by the physically larger Gardner 6LW. However, the Meadows engine proved unreliable and most were replaced by engines of other makes – usually a Gardner but also AEC and in the case of Midland Red their own K type.
Michael Elliott
23/05/12 – 09:40
According to my 1962 British Bus Fleets book, this bus is a 1949 Guy Arab III with a Pickering body.
Stephen Bloomfield
Thanks everyone I have replaced all but one of the ?s any offers on the seating capacity.
Peter
23/05/12 – 10:29
According to BBF 10 the vehicle seating capacity was 56.
Stephen Bloomfield
23/05/12 – 16:48
A correction to my earlier claim, there were apparently thirteen of these bodies, the ten Guy’s and three on re-conditioned AEC Regents of 1937, also for Tynemouth, FT 4220-4222. I wonder if they were ever photographed?
Chris Barker
23/05/12 – 16:49
The information on the flickr link that Roger provided says that these Pickering bodies were designed to resemble NCB bodies. Notice the difference in height between the front upper deck windows and the side windows, and compare that with a real NCB body here //www.flickr.com
Peter Williamson
24/05/12 – 08:16
Chris, three of the Regents you mention – FT 4220/2 were sold to Provincial in 1957 to replace some of the vehicles they lost in a garage fire, you can find pictures of some of them on the Provincial Bus Enthusiasts Website, there is also a picture of one of them with its pre war front entrance Weymann body
Ronnie Hoye
24/05/12 – 08:17
I don’t think there’s a difference in depth, just a deep valance moulding over the windows. BH & D used to do the same, presumably because they both ran in sunny areas! It certainly makes a difference to the appearance.
David Beilby
25/05/12 – 07:38
Is it possible that Pickering used NCB frames for these bodies?
Eric Bawden
26/05/12 – 06:54
Apparently not, Eric. According to the info on the Flickr posting they were all-metal, whereas NCB only built composite bodies.
Peter Williamson
26/05/12 – 20:15
Is it not possible that these bodies were built on Park Royal frames? The profiles are very similar to the standard Park Royal body, also built by Guy themselves, on Arab IIIs.
Roger Cox
02/01/13 – 07:45
As a Geordie can I please clarify this is a Pickering body, not NCB. NCB bodies did not have the slight curve (taper?) to the front upper deck windows. I used to see these when I was a young lad.
Peter Stobart
02/01/13 – 14:21
Talking about Guys with Meadow engines, LTE’s G436 was a speculative venture in 1949 by Guy, anxious to keep bus production going after the war, with London orders if possible. It employed an updated Guy Arab III chassis, with a Meadows 10.35 litre engine, fluid flywheel and pre-selector gearbox. It had a Guy body (5-bay) built on Park Royal frames that looked loosely like an RT forever allocated to a one-bus backwater route, the usual destiny for LTE’s non-standard buses, it was withdrawn in 1955, then went to Jugoslavia. See here: www.modelbuszone.co.uk/
Chris Hebbron
03/01/13 – 06:24
It is rumoured that G436 was either “gifted” or sold at a very reduced price to the Tram and Trolleybus Department of LTE as a tempter for future orders for tram replacement buses. The chassis was modified from the standard Arab III to allow the fitment of RT class bodywork, though G436 itself had the usual provincial style Park Royal body. A second chassis, designed to accept all the standard Park Royal and Weymann RT8 bodies of the RT class, was offered by Guy, but never delivered. G436 had a full air operated braking system, together with a fluid flywheel and an air operated four speed preselector gearbox. As far as is now known, the 10.35 litre Meadows 6DC630 engine was fully rated at 130 bhp, which would have made the bus decidedly more sprightly than the RT/RTL/RTW family which had engines de-rated to 115 bhp. Quite apart from the uphill struggle against London Transport’s infatuation with standardisation, the dubious reliability of the Meadows unit would have handicapped Guy’s attempt to get a postwar foothold in the London market. Perhaps the GS order was some kind of consolation prize. G436 spent its final two years or so with LTE on the short 121 route between Ponders End and Chingford. A certain 13 year old Guy fan made a special pilgrimage from Croydon to Chingford in the summer of 1955 to see this bus and sample it as a passenger. After waiting patiently at length for its arrival, and observing only RTs on the service, an enquiry put to one of the RT drivers elicited the information that G436 had been withdrawn from service at the end of February!
Roger Cox
19/05/16 – 06:18
Much has been written about the origins of these Pickering double deck bodies for Tynemouth, but this much I know. I bought a secondhand Britbus model of G436 the London Transport Meadows engined Park Royal bodied Guy. Firstly after dismantling it, I filed away the rain strip over the top of the front upper deck windows. Secondly I replaced the half drop windows with sliders. It is often difficult to remember what the rear of a bus looked like without the aid of photographs. But, based on memory I deepened the rear emergency windows on the top deck at the rear of the bus and placed a vertical dividing strip down the rear staircase/ platform window. Finally I repainted it in Tynemouth livery, added appropriate transfers and Hey Presto, what did I end up with a Pickering bodied Guy. So I submit that these bodies had Park Royal frames and were panneled and completed by Pickering.
Anon
13/04/18 – 05:47
I agree that this appears to have been built on Park Royal frames, the shortened bays on the trailing edge of the rear axles the clue. Thereafter its all cosmetic work, but the fact these were built on sturdier ground than Pickering’s wartime contributions suggests imported metal frames. NCB were all timber framed bodies and likewise of dubious quality apart from the final sanctions which were of ECW outline.
Keith
19/04/18 – 06:47
I can remember these vehicles operating on this service, although they were soon replaced by more modern vehicles. Indeed it seemed to me that this route (Whitley-Wallsend-Gateshead) often received new vehicles to operate it, displacing earlier vehicles to other routes. It was also noticeable that routes were allocated specific batches of vehicles to operate them. Living in Whitley Bay, other routes that I was familiar with were the 5 (Newcastle-Whitley Bay Cemetery) operated by the ECW rebodied TD5s, 7 (North Shields Ferry-Blyth) operated by NCB bodied AEC Regents, and 8 and 12 (North Shields Ferry-Whitley Bay Bandstand) operated by Weymann bodied AEC Regents. One other point, the vehicle in the photo is carrying the route number 4, but at some time, it was renumbered 1. I have a timetable from 1956 when it was still numbered 4, but in the timetable for 1961, it has become the 1. Does anyone know when it was renumbered? The present day 1 is a descendant of this route, although in order to serve various housing estates, it follows a much more tortuous route than was the case back then. It was also numbered 301 for a lengthy period.
John Gibson
20/04/18 – 06:45
The renumbering of this route from 4 to 1 took place when the route was extended at the Gateshead end to Lobley Hill, and I think this happened in 1956. I remember that my aunt moved to Cullercoats, and the first time we went there it was service 4 but the next time it was service 1: I think that she moved house in 1956. The renumbering was necessary because the route became a joint operation with Northern when it was extended to Lobley Hill, and Northern already had a route 4. Tynemouth route 1 (Clousden Hill – Wallsend – Willington Square) became route 4.
Paul Robson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
03/12/20 – 06:23
A rare photograph of Tynemouth Guy Arab III FT 6573 No 173 in the Fleet with Pickering H56R body leaving The Haymarket, Newcastle for the coast. Its blind has not been reset for the return journey. The date is probably mid 50s when shot and mid morning judging by the long shadow cast on the MCCW, BUT 9641T No.481 corporation trolley being overtaken and about to leave the stop on its journey to Polwarth Drive, Gosforth.
Ray Jackson
04/12/20 – 12:37
The bus would have turned right coming out of the old Haymarket Bus Station, then left round the back of the South African War Memorial onto Northumberland Street. It’s now a few yards further on, and on Barras Bridge heading towards The Great North Road. It will stay in the outside lane, as just a few hundred yards further on, it will turn right into Jesmond Road, heading towards Jesmond, then the Coast Road. This was the short lived revised, cream top livery, which was only around for a couple of years, so not every vehicle in the fleet had it. In 1958, the red top version was introduce, and the MCW Orion bodied Leyland PD3/4’s were the first to receive it.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1949 Guy Arab III Duple L27/26RD
HWO 344 was a 1949 Guy Arab III with Duple L53RD body, in the fleet of Provincial, Gosport & Fareham. She’s been relegated to duty as a training vehicle and is seen outside the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton on the same dull lunchtime as my view of the Southern Vectis Bristol Lodekka KDL 414 in March 1974, which was published a few weeks ago. She is an exile from Red & White (L1949 in their fleet) and is of course a sister vehicle to L1749 which features in the excellent “Gallery” by Ken Morgan titled Red and White Guy L1749.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
29/11/12 – 07:41
Copyright Diesel Dave
I was pleasantly surprised to see the photo of the Provincial Duple bodied Guy Arab III trainer T1 as I had recently been looking through some of my old photos which included a photo of the same bus taken in the early 70’s at the Provincial Hoeford garage.
Diesel Dave
29/11/12 – 10:08
Nice view, Dave! Brighter than mine, of course, since it was taken in sunshine. It’s always seemed a pity to me that there is no fleet name on the side of the vehicle.
Pete Davies
29/11/12 – 11:09
It did have its own identity, though; the minute T1 amidst the signs! I wonder how many trainers they had.
Chris Hebbron
29/11/12 – 16:12
Chris, so far as I am aware, there’s only ever been one trainer in use at a time. The last I recall seeing was a Bristol FLF (EMR 295D) ex Wilts & Dorset, and it didn’t seem to have a T prefix to the fleet number. It did, however, have the Provincial fleet name in NBC style.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Tynemouth and District 1952 Guy Arab III Weymann H30/26R
On the last leg of its journey from Whitley Bay St Mary’s Island to Newcastle Haymarket, this 1952 H30/26R Weymann bodied Guy Arab III was one of ten in the NGT Tynemouth and District fleet; FT 7381/90 181/90. When new the livery would have been the same as the two Regent’s and the Pickering Arab featured elsewhere on this site. The interiors of these sturdy well built bodies were finished to a very high standard, they were double skinned throughout, the lights had glass covers with chrome bezels and the area around the window’s was finished off with polished wood surrounds. As with all of T&D vehicles of the period, the seat cushions and backrests were upholstered in a rather attractive dark red moquette, the backs and cushion edges were trimmed in leather. Percy Main’s first 8ft wide buses, they were also the first with sliding cab doors, but they were a heavy beast and lacked many of the creature comforts we now take for granted. No heaters or power steering, they had a crash box and the brakes could best be described as adequate. They were fitted with the almost indestructible Gardner 5LW and breakdowns were extremely rare, but they were anything but fast, and these days they would be underpowered and would struggle to keep pace with traffic, but they could scale the North Face of The Eiger ‘metaphorically speaking’. I was 6 in 1952, so in my youth I must have clocked up quite a few passenger miles on these, but they were withdrawn in 1966 so I never drove one on service. However, one vehicle in particular was to play a significant part in my life; at the tender age of 21, in January 1967 I started my driver training at Percy Main and passed my test two weeks later, the training vehicle was 189 and the instructor was a chap called Jackie Gallon. He taught me how to start off using the clutch, then go through the box from 1 to 4 and back to 1 just by listening to the engine ‘no rev counters in those days’ the object of the exercise was to keep the engine in tune with the gearbox, and done properly the gears would just fall into place as smooth as silk, but get it wrong and everyone within a radius of 100yd’s would hear about it. Once you’ve mastered the technique you can get a quick change down on a hill that would rival any other gearbox I’ve ever encountered. The early Orion bodied Arabs that followed these were stripped to the bone to achieve lightness, but they were an unpleasant vehicle to be on as you were subjected to a constant barrage of knocks bangs rattles and squeaks, and the interiors looked cheap and chatty in comparison. I know of some similar Weymann bodies have survived, but I’m not aware of any on a Guy chassis. As a footnote, If you look behind the bus, going in the opposite direction is what looks like the rear of a MK 3 Zodiac, so the photo cant be earlier than 1962, but by the layout and style of the Shop At Binns logo, I would say it was about 1964.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
24/03/13 – 15:09
Another gem from Ronnie! I note his comments about learning to drive a bus. Crash box? My first experience of driving a bus was on one of the Hampshire Bus (ex Wilts & Dorset) FLF trainers. That had a crash box. Going up was easy but, for coming down, I was told to make sure the speedo was showing precisely 20 for 4 to 3, and precisely 12 for 3 to 2. 1 was used only for hill starts. A chap at what was then Southampton Citybus was telling me one day that his instructor had said double declutching is for amateurs – if you listen to the engine, you can go straight through. This ties in very nicely with Ronnie’s comment about being in tune, and it ties in with what others on this site have said about the rear engine!
Pete Davies
24/03/13 – 15:10
Looking at the main photo and reading the text I was convinced the photo was indicative of Tyneside as I knew it when visiting in 1958/9. Then I saw Ronnie’s blow up inset and his comment about the Zodiac which is quite correct.
Apart from the Commer C series Mk2 (I can hear “the Knocker” as I type!) in front of what is presumably a PD2 (whose?) there is, at the extreme left, the front wing of a Sunbeam Rapier distinguishable from its Rootes Group contemporaries by its wheel embellisher. A very atmospheric photo of a time now almost half a century ago.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/03/13 – 16:47
Phil, the PD2 is one of Gateshead’s, they had the Newcastle Corporation destination layout rather than the standard NGT. The livery was a dark chocolate with cream centre band and also under the lower saloon windows, it was outlined in black and they had black wings. they looked superb, but it tended to fade rather quickly, and that made them look a bit drab.
Ronnie Hoye
24/03/13 – 16:48
With regards this posting by Ronnie of a Tynemouth Guy FT 7388, in which he mentions later, lightweight Orion bodies, not sure whether any had survived on Guy chassis.
Well, here is one that did, if only for a little while, seen here on some works contract when I stumbled across it in the Bromford Bridge area of Birmingham, one afternoon in the late sixties when I was working in that city. I recall it had the remains of “Northern” fleet names rather than Tynemouth, but it is the only shot I have of an Orion body on an exposed-radiator Guy chassis. I had always thought it was perhaps a rebodied older bus, a Utility even, perhaps not.
Rob Hancock
24/03/13 – 17:13
A superb photograph and wonderful commentary. To pick-up Phil’s point about the PD2 I would hazard a guess that the destination layout is that of Gateshead and District, but I am open to correction here.
Kevin Hey
This is all there is I”m afraid
24/03/13 – 17:40
Thanks Ronnie and Kevin for reminding me of Gateshead and District, especially of the livery, of which I’d all but forgotten. The number of operators in the Newcastle area with interestingly different liveries always made a visit worthwhile. I also note in the latest inset shot confirming my Sunbeam Rapier identification, the rear of a 1956 Vauxhall Cresta, though the owner saved money by not opting for the contrasting second colour flash!
Phil Blinkhorn
25/03/13 – 07:53
Yes, thanks Ronnie for confirming the destination layout on the PD2. It had never crossed my mind that Gateshead and District motorbuses had Newcastle Corporation-style destination indicator layout, well at least until the 30ft Titans and Atlanteans were taken into stock. The Newcastle destination layout was in fact the same as Huddersfield Corporation. This was introduced at Newcastle when Harry Godsmark became General Manager having previously been at Huddersfield. In the municipal sector there are quite a few examples of general managers introducing revised destination layouts to their new fleet based on the arrangements at their previous undertaking. The move by John C. Wake from St. Helens to Bradford is one example of this, although strangely he did not take the arrangement with him when he moved to Nottingham. As Phil says the Tyneside area was always worth visiting on account of the various operators.
Kevin Hey
25/03/13 – 07:53
Phil, the Rapier is also a convertible. Quite rare, especially in northern climes! Perhaps a little more commonly seen amongst Southdown Arab III’s, for example.
Eric Bawden
25/03/13 – 10:30
Absolutely Eric!
Phil Blinkhorn
25/03/13 – 15:03
Ronnie Is this photograph taken on the Gt North Road at Barras Bridge? The dotted white line on the roadway curving to the lower left of the photograph is intriguing. Was this a guide line for drivers of Corporation trolleybuses, I wonder? Phil/Eric If I only had my old copies of Observer’s Book of Automobiles! These books were superb for identifying cars and the variants!
Kevin Hey
25/03/13 – 15:58
Could be a clip from the 1961 film Payroll starring Michael Craig and Billie Whitelaw.
Roger Broughton
26/03/13 – 06:50
Yes, Kevin, the photographer would be standing with His/Her back to the South African War Memorial, if the bus had kept to the left it would have gone down Northumberland Street, which at that time was still the A1.
Phil, I knew I had a photo of one somewhere, it would have been taken from about the same place as the one of the Guy, but facing to the right. I think Gateshead had around 33 of these splendid all Leyland PD2’s, they were a mixture of both 8ft and 7ft 6″, the later were for services over the High Level Bridge which at that time had width restriction, the Trolleybus is one of 70 similar to the London Q’s, this is one of the first batch of 20, the remainder had the same destination layout as the Leyland
Ronnie Hoye
26/03/13 – 06:51
Yes Kevin, I also had a couple of editions of the Observers books and whilst they did come in handy they also listed many Russian and other Eastern Bloc cars that you would never see on British roads, as well as many US and Australian cars that were unlikely to grace our highways. Happy days though!
Eric Bawden
26/03/13 – 06:51
Yes this is Barras Bridge between the university and the bus station.I worked at the then new Civic Centre, just opposite, in 1970-73 just as the area was trashed by the central motorway.So I was familiar with this scene and there were still a few interesting buses about, though sadly the trolleybuses were long gone.
David Rhodes
26/03/13 – 06:52
As a Weymann fan, especially this classic design, how many of you (like me) noticed that this is a 27′ long bus with longer rear upstairs windows. I think it makes a good design even better (balance and integrity). Morecambe had at least one Regent III like this (which I believe is preserved), Devon General had a number (one of which is reserved ?). How many more were there at 27′ – I don’t count the Bury examples because they were a transition to the Aurora and had a mix of designs?
David Oldfield
26/03/13 – 08:13
Thanks for the PD2 photo Ronnie. Re the trolleybus, I well remember these because, apart from visits with my Father when he was working, he had cousins in Walker and Denton. My earliest memory of those is of staying in an hotel in, I think, Denton with the trolleybuses parked in front. Presumably this was the Denton terminus. As this was 1953 and I was around 6 at the time, the memory is hazy.
Phil Blinkhorn
28/03/13 – 10:53
Hard to imagine a better-looking bus than this very welcome posting of Ronnie’s. The dead-vertical, straight-sided radiator means business and the Weymann body looks as if had been sculpted from a block, rather than put together piece by piece. Before David O’s comment I hadn’t noticed that it was 27′ long. I don’t know how long these buses were in service, but with Guy-Gardner-Weymann quality they must have had a potential lifespan of 40-odd years. It’s a pity that changing needs and fashions cause such wastage. Ronnie Hoye and Pete Davies’s mention of clutchless changes remind me of a day in 1968 when this trickery came in very handy. I was doing a short, quiet but hilly Thames Valley working northward from Reading to the Unicorn Inn at Kingwood Common, when at the bottom of Prospect Street, Caversham, the clutch pedal went to the floor. Luckily the Lodekka had a very nicely-mannered AVW engine with an extremely precise pump and no backlash in the transmission, so I reckoned that with the conductor’s permission we could soldier on, using the starter to get us rolling in first gear after each stop. He agreed and rang through to Lower Thorn Street to warn them that a replacement bus would be needed later. Coming up to each stop where there was anyone to get on or off I dropped her into first for the last few yards and slowed to about one mph, and to our relief most people hopped on and off in paternoster-lift fashion. For old folk, of course, we came to a proper halt and restarted on the button. Not being able to change up out of first till the top of any real hill was an embarrassment, though on gentle slopes you could get up into second and beyond without risking a jerk. I can’t remember whether we did the same on the way back, or whether they sent the replacement up to meet us. I’m grateful to a co-operative conductor and a beautifully-engineered vehicle for making possible an antic I wouldn’t dream of risking today!
Ian Thompson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
29/03/13 – 06:52
I once had a Fiat Uno whose clutch cable snapped. I drove it from my home in Chipping Sodbury to the garage in Bristol in the manner described by Ian – a bit hair-raising at times (with that gearing the starter would not have coped with any sort of gradient) but great fun. There are times when knowledge of crash gearboxes is very useful, even when you aren’t using a crash gearbox!
Peter Williamson
30/03/13 – 10:04
The very early Atlanteans we had at Godfrey Abbott (ex Ribble) were not fitted with an interlock on the gear change, it was perfectly possible, and by no means unusual to accidentally change down from fourth to first!! A sound that was like no other, before or since!! Some of the early semi’s had a ring of differing colour round the speedo to show when to change gears. This device could also be seen on Leyland/BUT engined DMU’s of similar vintage (could the connection be “Self Changing Gears”? of which W. A. Stanier of duchess fame was a director) Another excitement was with NCK 352 which used to stick on or about TDC, this bus had a large pair of Stilly’s as standard equipment! open bonnet, apply to nut on end of crankshaft, pull hard, then restart!!
County Borough of Darlington Transport Department 1953 Guy Arab III 5LW Roe B41C
The small operation of Darlington Corporation does not seem to be mentioned on the Website. I have only been to the town once back in 1968. I took just one photo probably as it was unusual even in those days to see a passenger ready to leave the centre entrance whilst the bus was still in motion. A single deck Guy Arab III was also unusual for me. I have recently rediscovered this old slide taken with a very basic camera, I hope it may be of interest.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton
13/08/15 – 08:15
I don’t think the Roe West Riding Red AEC’s had doors to their centre entrances, either. This made the rear saloon a chilly place- and as you suggest the elfansafety doesn’t bear thinking about- the step backwards system of alighting from a moving bus platform was impossible and twisting sideways must have been just right to fall against the rear wheels. End of an era, here.
Joe
13/08/15 – 08:51
I attach a bought slide of a Swindon Daimler CV single decker with a similar centre entrance/exit arrangement. How popular was it, exactly? I know some of Blackpool ones in the 1930s, and we all know about their PD2/5 fleet, but single deckers like this seem very rare.
Pete Davies
13/08/15 – 11:53
Not centre-entrance and a decker, but London Transport’s Country Area STL’s posed the same hazards as the other two vehicles. LPTB’s 1936 (ex-STL 1470) offering was lauded by them as ‘draught-free’, a statement, from personal experience, I heartily disagreed with, despite the angled front bulkhead and rear partition to entrance! Note the staircase opposite the entrance. LINK: www.flickr.com/photos/
Chris Hebbron
13/08/15 – 13:55
Joe, I think the West Riding centre-entrance Regents had doors. However, like you, I also remember being cold in their rear saloons so they probably spent most of their time open (to save the conductors’ time). This photo seems to show the door in a closed position. //www.bus-and-coach-photos.com/picture/number5402.asp Some photos suggest they were double doors, hinged outwardly opening. If only 111 had survived beyond early preservation.
Paul Haywood
13/08/15 – 14:40
Municipal conservatism at work with these Guys? By 1953 underfloor engined saloons were well established and virtually the norm so these purchases seem a bit of an anachronism. Doncaster and Burnley, Colne and Nelson were other operators that stuck to half-cab single deckers well into the 1950’s with BCN taking PS2 Tigers right up to 1955. More examples of those little things that make our hobby so interesting.
Philip Halstead
14/08/15 – 11:51
Hunter of Seaton Delaval had two TS7 Leyland Tigers, JR 4901, from 1935, and JR 6600, 1936: both Burlingham B35F. In 1953 and 54 respectively, they were rebodied by Roe as B39C, they were very similar to this Darlington example, but differed slightly in that they had doors which were flush with the side of the bus when shut, but I cant for the life of me remember if they were two single doors, or a two piece folding type. The only thing that let them down, was that they had been rebodied as 8ft on a 7’6″ chassis, which tended to make them look a bit unbalanced.
Ronnie Hoye
16/08/15 – 06:35
Must have been a job keeping them clean,,,,
Mike
16/08/15 – 06:36
The last conventional half-cab saloons (both complete buses and new bodies for old chassis) date from 1955, after which only a few specialised vehicles were built on chassis normally bodied as double-deckers – a Leyland PD2 for West Mon, eight Regent Vs for South Wales Transport and two more as non-PSVs registered in Leeds.
Geoff Kerr
01/09/15 – 07:43
Rotherham Corporation ran a large fleet of Bristol L5G and L6B buses mostly with central entrance. FET 821 f/n 121 was one of the last delivered in 1951 with an East Lancs body and makes an interesting contrast to the standard ECW bodies which never -to my knowledge – offered this option. It was photographed in 1970 in Carlisle clearly on a school outing but from where and who was the operator- perhaps owned by the school itself?
Keith Newton
02/09/15 – 07:02
Keith, thanks for John Kaye who gave me this information regarding Rotherham 121 (above). It was withdrawn by Rotherham in September 1968 it is recorded with Army Cadet Force, Dearne Valley Area, Wath (later Wakefield) in January 1969 and sold for scrap 1970.
Paul Haywood
02/09/15 – 07:03
This bus appeared on the SCT61 site and the discussion following the photographs gives some explanation as to why the bus would have been in Carlisle: //www.sct61.org.uk/rr121
Blackburn Corporation 1949 Guy Arab III 6LW Crossley H30/26R
On the 12th September 2015, a heritage weekend in Blackburn featured four classic buses operating free tours of the town two of them are seen here. Blackburn Corporation 133 (CBV 433) is a 1948 Guy Arab III with Crossley H30/26R body, generally to the Manchester Corporation Style but with unusual opening windows. The livery is enhanced by the lining out. Seen behind is Burnley, Colne and Nelson JTC 41 (CHG 541) a Leyland “Tiger” PS2/14 built as late as 1954. The East Lancs body was originally rear entrance but was rebuilt in 1958 with a forward entrance to permit one-man-operation. Both of these buses are owned by Paul and Rachel Fielding, although the Tiger is operated as part of the Cumbria Classic Coaches fleet.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
13/11/15 – 06:33
Burnley, Colne & Nelson had the last conventional half-cab saloons built for the UK home market (47 – 49, DHG 47 – 49) in 1955, after which only a few special vehicles were built – a Leyland PD2 for West Mon and eight AEC Regent Vs for South Wales Transport. There were also two Regents built as non-PSVs for use in the Leeds area.
Geoff Kerr
13/11/15 – 06:34
The combination of the Manchester style Crossley body and the Guy Arab ‘snout’, needed to accommodate the length of the Gardner 6LW engine seemed very ill at ease on these Blackburn buses. Compared to other 1948/9 offerings such as an all Leyland PD2 or a Weymann bodied AEC Regent III these were very ugly and old fashioned looking vehicles. They must have been mechanically robust though as they had long service lives.
Philip Halstead
13/11/15 – 09:55
CBV 433 has had a repaint since I caught her in Fleetwood, during a soggy Tram Sunday in 2001!
Lancashire United Transport 1951 Guy Arab III 6LW Roe C35F
MTJ 84 was originally Lancashire United 440. It is a 1951 Guy Arab III with Roe C35F body. It is owned nowadays by Cumbria Classic Coaches, and is regularly used for private hire work especially weddings. It is seen here at Bowber Head, near Kirkby Stephen, just outside the Cumbria Classic Coaches Depot.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
23/11/15 – 06:37
Another example of a somewhat anachronistic purchase by a major operator. By 1951 the underfloor engined single decker was becoming well established especially for coaches where being up to date with ‘fashion’ was more important than for buses. No doubt these were robust and reliable vehicles but very soon after purchase they would be perceived by the travelling public as very old fashioned. They did have long service lives however and spent a lot of their time on the long Tyne-Tees-Mersey service which in pre-motorway days must have been an arduous trek.
Philip Halstead
26/11/15 – 10:41
I can confirm the arduousness of the X97 in pre motorway days. We were regular travellers in the early sixties from Newcastle to Lymm Church, usually in summer. The usual trip was the 8.30 am departure from Newcastle Haymarket which from memory got to Lymm around teatime. We started queuing about an hour before the scheduled departure time in order to get on the first coach. This was usually a Northern Willowbrook bodied Tiger Cub or Reliance, or one of North Western’s black tops Reliances. They looked impressive but were basically 43 seat buses with detachable headrests on the seats. The only bit of dual carriageway in the early days was on the A1 south of Catterick. Being a bus nut, I grabbed the front seat armed with my British Bus Fleets volumes much to the amusement of the crews. One early lessons we learnt was never do the northbound journey on a summer Saturday. We did it once on a miserable wet day. LUT Guy Arab bus to Manchester, then on to a hired Yeates bodied Bedford to Leeds, then another change to get home. Happy days.
Richard Slater
27/11/15 – 06:24
The livery shown here is very bus-like, the original livery with “brightwork” was much more coach like. LUT bucked the trend with its coach purchases. The first underfloor engined coaches were very sturdy looking centre entrance Roe bodied Guys which arrived in the black & red livery with brightwork (which was soon changed). The next deliveries included Weymann DP Guys and Roe DPs on Atkinson Alpha chassis. (The Atkinsons technically belonged to South Lancashire Tramways.) Add to these Duple Donnington and NCME bodied Tiger Cubs, Burlingham & Plaxton Derwent AEC Reliances, so waiting for an LUT coach in the 60s was most interesting!
Andrew Gosling
27/11/15 – 06:24
Richard, I can’t comment on the Northern Willowbrook bodied vehicles’ seats but the North Western bodied Reliances’ headrests were part of the moulded seat frame and were not detachable.
Phil Blinkhorn
28/11/15 – 06:06
Phil, I recall the high backed moulded seats, and I’m sure they had detachable headrests added. From memory they were white, but we’re talking 50 years ago and my memory could well be defective.
Richard Slater
28/11/15 – 06:06
I wish I’d paid more attention in their day to a number of underfloor single-deckers that are now rarities. Sentinels, Atkinson Alphas, Dennis UFs and Seddons and others come to mind, but at the time I found them a bit unappealing in comparison with halfcabs like this magnificent Roe-bodied Guy and the equally superb Leyland PS1 in the next posting. Underfloors obviously met an operational need, making OPO possible and fitting in an extra 4 seats, but they kept the fitters busy.
Ian Thompson
28/11/15 – 08:27
Not wishing to throw a spanner in the works, a study of the “black top AECs” photos in “North Western” volume 2 by Eric Ogden makes interesting viewing. Page 54, 720-39, Reliance/Weymann, slightly higher backed seats, no head restraint. Page 56, 746-60, Reliance/Willowbrook, slightly better moulded seats, no head restraint. Page 59, 797-811, Reliance/Willowbrook, 804 clearly has white head restraints 797 head restraints, not good photo, but maybe not white or just dirty. Page 63, 852-871, Reliance/Willowbrook, 864 moulded seats, no head restraints 862 white detachable head restraints retro fitted. This should clarify the issue!
Andrew Gosling
29/11/15 – 05:53
Thanks Andrew, I have that book and maybe I should have dug it out.
Richard Slater
30/11/15 – 06:44
Richard’s recollection of the timings for his travels on the Newcastle-upon-Tyne to Lymm ‘Tyne-Tees-Mersey’ service are quite right. The Summer 1951 timetable shows an 0830 departure from Haymarket and the arrival in Lymm would be 1616. The Winter 1969/1970 timetable shows the departure at 0840 arriving 1618. Both these timetables, plus others from 1932 and 1972 including the vehicle/crew diagram for 1972, may be viewed on my Ipernity album covering the ‘Tyne-Tees-Mersey’ subject. www.ipernity.com/doc/davidslater
David Slater
03/12/15 – 10:38
David, thanks for confirming that my memory isn’t that faulty, it’s reassuring. I last used the X97 around 1968 and I can’t recall ever using the M62. My last trip from Lymm was in a Northern F registered Leopard with, I think, a Willowbrook bus body. It had very comfortable coach seating so a smooth journey was ensured. We used the night service once. This ran via Irlam and Eccles. It was a Yorkshire Woollen car, a DP Reliance, which got into Newcastle ridiculously early because it ran non stop from Leeds. This was quite a common event when the service car was filled with passengers for Newcastle.
Southampton Corporation 1954 Guy Arab III 6LW Park Royal H30/26R
LOW 217 is a Guy Arab III with Park Royal H56R body, new in 1954. It is still owned by Southampton City Council and we see it turning from Portswood Road – this section being known locally as Portswood Broadway – into (Old) St Denys Road. It is 30 May 2010 and there is a running day to mark the official (but not actual) closure of Portswood Depot. The actual closure was delayed by about three months because the new depot at Empress Road wasn’t ready.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
21/08/16 – 11:09
These buses looked rather old fashioned for 1954. By then rubber window mounts and ‘new-look’ fronts were well established. Perhaps Southampton valued standardisation more than up to the minute styling as these were the last of a very large batch of early post-war Guys.
Philip Halstead
21/08/16 – 16:17
Yes, Philip, I think you’re right. The next batch to arrive was the PD2 with Midland Red front, then the PD2A and Regent V before the Atlantean. Bill Lewis managed to modernise the livery on the Atlanteans to something like the Manchester style, and I’m not sure why he didn’t deal with the older vehicles as well. Perhaps Nigel Frampton can advise! Bill had other difficulties with his Committee – they were adamant that they would not follow the trend to overall adverts – the best he could achieve for many years was the ‘wrap around’ style and, although other Councils, including our neighbours Bournemouth and Portsmouth had coaches or dual purpose vehicles for private hire work, Bill was not allowed to have them. I have a strong suspicion that the presence of a local coach proprietor on the Committee had more than some influence there! What about a declaration of conflicting interests?
Pete Davies
21/08/16 – 17:08
Arab III/Park Royal might look a bit old fashioned, but elegant at the same time, especially in the standard livery. I think you might agree that neither the PD2 or PD2A could be described as pretty, particularly in the “red look” livery. Wasn’t the livery on the Regent V/East Lancs/Neepsend pretty much the same as the Guys, except for no silver roof? As far as private hire was concerned, I think you are most likely correct & add in a number of rate paying coach operators in the district & there’s no contest!
David Field
22/08/16 – 05:45
Had this Guy Arab for my wedding on September 2011 taking us all from Fareham to Portsmouth and return. Great for me as Provincial (my favourite operator) had many of this type. A proper bus, brilliant.
Arthur Syson
22/08/16 – 05:46
Wasn’t the Arab IV well established by 1954?
Chris Barker
22/08/16 – 09:23
I don’t recall Portsmouth Corporation having any vehicles for private hire work, be they coaches or DP type. It was a rigmarole for bus enthusiasts to get one of their buses for private hire outside the Portmsouth area, little more the Portsea Island, plus Leigh Park, a Portsmouth Council housing estate, where dispensation had been given after it was built. However, some arrangement enabled the open-topped TD4’s to go to the Epsom Derby.
Chris Hebbron
22/08/16 – 10:44
Portsmouth Corporation did operate some dual purpose vehicles in it’s final years. These were the three Leyland National 2s, nos 98-100 (CPO98-100W) with DP40F bodies, and a zig-zag red on white livery. These were delivered in 1980. In 1982, the Corporation added three Dennis Lancets (95-97), two were buses (B35F), and one (95, GTP95X) was DP33F. All three were bodied by Wadham Stringer. Finally, the Corporation bought a “proper” coach, secondhand from a dealer. This was a Leyland Leopard / Duple C57F, numbered 101 (AUS644S). Then, in the new era of Portsmouth City Transport “arm’s length” company from October 1986, they added two more second hand coaches. These were also Leyland Leopards with Plaxton C51F bodies, and came from Bournemouth. They were nos 104-105 (FEL 104-105L). Apparently PCT Ltd also hired two Shamrock & Rambler Leopard/Plaxton coaches in the summer of 1987. Several of these came under Southampton ownership when Southampton Citybus took over Portsmouth Citybus in July 1988. However it seems to be a quite complex arrangement as to who owned or borrowed which ones in this era. Then along came Stagecoach, then Harry Blundred, then First Group . . . all change! Sorry, this is a long way from the Guy Arab III in the original image. As a teenager, I often visited Southampton when these were the main components of the fleet, so the image brings back good memories. Also, as was mentioned above, some ended up with Provincial at Gosport and Fareham, joining that company’s very similar buses. Those purchases seemed a perfect fit, as even the destination screen arrangements were virtually identical – just the alignment in the front panel being the clue if you know what to look for.
Michael Hampton
22/08/16 – 14:01
I much preferred the Guy Arabs that Provincial acquired new, which had a less spartan interior finish than the Southampton vehicles, while the 5LW gave a better looking profile, but, of course, Southampton needed the 6LW for the long steep hills while Gosport and Fareham had few hills and nothing of any note.
David Wragg
23/08/16 – 06:08
Sorry Pete, I’m afraid I don’t know the reason why the Atlantean livery was not extended to the front engined types. I suppose one could speculate that it was a form of “OPO” livery, in a similar manner to the Bristol Omnibus Company in the few years just prior to the introduction of NBC standard liveries in 1972 – but it would be purely speculation. I would also add that there was something of a tradition of specific classes of buses retaining different liveries in SCT. One commentator referred to the silver roofs of the Guy Arabs (double and single deck), the Park Royal bodied Leyland Titans and AEC Regent Vs, and the Nimbuses. As far as I know that feature was included at repaint. Then there were the Swifts and Seddon RUs – Swift number 1 always had a different layout of colours (and, I think, a different shade of cream). I also think that the Seddons had another, richer shade of cream. It would not, of course, comply with modern thinking on corporate images, but I don’t ever recall thinking that the services were operated by anything other than one single operator! On the other hand, one could argue that the various livery layouts had been adapted to suit the respective vehicles. Now that’s something that today’s livery designers could learn!
Nigel Frampton
23/08/16 – 06:13
Well, thank you so much, Michael H, for clarifying the situation on Portsmouth Corporation’s DP buses and coaches. I left Portsmouth in 1976 and was not able to watch the twists and turns of Portsmouth Corporation in its later years and its death throes. I’ve looked on the web and can find no photos of any of the vehicles you mention.
Chris Hebbron
23/08/16 – 06:13
You didn’t mean it this way, David W, but your comment that “Fareham had ‘nothing of any note’ reminds me of an old tourist guide I read many years ago which described Fareham as being “devoid of interest”!
Chris Hebbron
23/08/16 – 06:13
Between 1949 and 1952 (when aged 7 to 10 years) I lived at Alverstoke, where the standard type allocated to the Gosport – Haslar route 11 was the 5LW Guy Arab III with Guy built bodywork on Park Royal frames. In appearance, they were essentially identical to the 6LW Southampton examples, which, to the delight of a visiting small boy, seemed to be operated in huge numbers in that city. Several of these would subsequently become part of the Provincial fleet. Much later, in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I would travel to the city for Institute of Transport meetings at Southampton University, and contrived to catch a Guy for the local part of the journey whenever possible. The Arab III/Park Royal combination is my favourite bus of all time, and I believe that its standard of ride, dependability and operating economics have never been equalled. Geoffrey Hilditch stated that a Guy Arab fleet could regularly offer a 98% standard of reliability, a figure that included engineering spares and buses on overhaul. Nothing else surely could match that. The 1951 Arab IV evolved from the 1950 specification issued by Birmingham City for their new Guys, and, in addition to the repositioned front bulkhead to eliminate the radiator ‘snout’, the updated chassis included features better to meet the requirements for 8ft wide bodywork. The Arab III was offered alongside the Arab IV until late in 1953, and Southampton’s Nos.67-73 batch must have been among the very last deliveries of the type. A picture of No.71 in service may be found on the OBP Southampton gallery. In 1961 Southampton plummeted from the sublime to the ridiculous with its PD2s, the execrable appearance of which led the Corporation to abandon Park Royal after a loyalty of some 33 years.
Roger Cox
23/08/16 – 06:16
Living in Southampton in the post war Guy Arab era, I have to declare a fond predilection for these vehicles. Although the 64-73 batch were Mk III Arabs, they did have a different exhaust system layout to the earlier vehicles. This batch had a larger diameter system with the pipe located behind the offside wheels; all the other Arabs in the fleet had a smaller diameter system with the exhaust outlet in front of the offside wheels. In 1961, Mr Jenkins, the deputy GM always attributed their superior performance on the road to this difference. This batch certainly had more oomph! than their predecessors and coped effortlessly on the hillier routes 4 and 6. Of the ten I always thought No 68 (LOW 214) was the pick of a very good bunch.
Peter Elliott
23/08/16 – 06:44
Slightly off subject, but I was told a story that the original So’ton livery was blue/white as per the Regent V BOW 507C in the photo (but without the P&O sponsorship!). This was changed to red/cream when So’ton gained a Labour council sometime between the wars, and there was no way they were going to have blue buses. Can anyone confirm this?
Also the first batch of Regent V’s might well qualify in the Ugly Bus page see photo of 318 AOW attached. I think the Arab’s that went to Provincial were mainly from the earlier batches, which indeed had things like exposed bulbs for the interior lights, & a sliding window between the lower saloon and the cab, which allowed the conductor and driver to chat . Did you know that the good old “Jelly Mould” interior lights fitted to later models is still in production today . Sorry about the poor picture quality. The photos were taken at So’ton Centenary in 1979.
David Field
23/08/16 – 10:17
David F, I can’t comment on the reason for changing from blue to red livery, but the blue is certainly the pre-war livery. The Regent painted thus for the Centenary is one of the views in our editor’s file for consideration, along with a note on the reason for the P&O adverts. Roger, you describe the Park Royal bodies on the PD2 as ‘excrable’. I’m sorry, but I didn’t think they were as pretty as that!
Pete Davies
23/08/16 – 14:01
Here’s a coloured photo of an early 1930’s Thornycorft Daring in Southampton Blue with blue roof. At some period, the blue roof was dropped. The corporation favoured this local bus builder for a period and, guess what, they had Park Royal bodies!
Chris Hebbron
24/08/16 – 05:54
Sorry, Chris. Didn’t mean to offend Fareham. I was really writing about the lack of steep hills. My favourite Guy Arabs were the Southdown Mk.IVs of around 1956, with Park Royal bodies.
David Wragg
24/08/16 – 05:56
If your story is true, Davis F, it just shows how petty politicians can be. I recall that, when Big Ben was thoroughly renovated some years ago, it was found the the clock faces were originally blue and it was suggested that, in the interest of historical accuracy, the faces regain their original colour. Labour objected vehemently and it was not to be. How childish!
Chris Hebbron
24/08/16 – 05:57
Taking up the point made by Peter E about the livelier performance of the later Guy Arabs, Gardner introduced the ‘K’ type LW range of engines in 1950, which, for the 6LW, raised the output from 102 to 112 bhp. That should have made a difference, but I would have expected all the Arabs from No.184 onwards to have exhibited this improved performance. Perhaps that revised exhaust system did provide a magic ingredient.
Roger Cox
24/08/16 – 10:17
It’s all right, David W; I was amused, not upset!
Chris Hebbron
25/08/16 – 15:25
Chris Hebbron writes of difficulties in finding photos of Portsmouth Corporation’s coaches and duple purpose vehicles.
Try and locate the following books:- Portsmouth Citybus and its Predecessors PSV Circle 1997. Fares Please Eric Watts 1987 Milestone Publications. Portsmouth Corporation Transport Bob Rowe 2012 Venture Publications.
Andy Hemming
26/08/16 – 05:07
Had I lived in Southampton at the time, I should have been mortified to see the trams replaced by mere buses, but SCT couldn’t have chosen a worthier vehicle for replacement. I’ve read the postings with particular interest. I agree with both Roger Cox and David Wragg that both the Southampton Arab IIIs and the Southdown Arab IVs were very handsome vehicles. Bearing in mind the wonderful reliability of the IIIs, can anyone shed light on SCT’s odd decision to move away from Guys? The Arab IV would have been the ideal vehicle for the next order after the III finally went out of production. What a pity none of the Thornycrofts ever turned up languishing in a barn somewhere. Few enough single-deck Thornycrofts survive, let alone a decker.
Ian Thompson
26/08/16 – 05:08
Thank you Andy for reference to the publications with images of the Portsmouth vehicles I mentioned. There is also a model of the Leyland National 2 in the stripey livery available, their ref 14702. An internet search for this will bring up an image of this, and it is a good representation of the actual thing.
Michael Hampton
26/08/16 – 14:12
To answer Ian’s question, I seem to recall that in the 1959/60 period Guy virtually withdrew the Arab from the market as it was putting all its thrust on the Wulfrunian. I know committed Arab user Lancashire United bought Leyland PD3’s and Daimler CSG’s in this period and perhaps Southampton moved to Leyland for the same reason. The Wulfrunian as we now all know did not quite work out (I am being diplomatic – more like an unmitigated disaster) and Guy went back to offering the Arab around 1962. By that time Guy were in financial difficulties which may have deterred further sales.
Philip Halstead
28/08/16 – 06:29
Sorry, Chris H, but that Big Ben clock face story is an urban myth. It is thought that Pugin’s original colour was green for the dials with royal blue for numbers and hands, but research continues. The Southampton livery changed from blue/white to red/cream after WW2 when the entire tram and bus fleet was in a parlous state at the end of hostilities. The official reason for the livery change was the alleged instability of the blue paint – it was a piece of received wisdom in the bus industry that blue was a “difficult” colour, though a number of operators successfully serving the country north of Watford clearly took a different view. Southampton’s choice of the Daring chassis in the 1930s arose from a natural desire to support local industry. The Thornycroft shipyard was at Woolston, having relocated from Chiswick in 1904, but all the road going vehicles were manufactured at Basingstoke where the company had opened a purpose built factory in 1898. Southampton did take some open top double deck and some single deck examples of the J type in 1919-1921 , but then favoured AEC, Leyland and Guy. The most successful Thornycroft passenger model from the later 1920s was the BC Forward which could also be supplied as a double decker. Southampton took four double deck examples of the two axle BC and became the only significant customer for the HC six wheeler, though these designs were outdated in comparison with the three AEC Regents bought by the Corporation at about the same time. The first Thornycroft passenger model of recognisably modern concept was the XC double decker of 1931, five of which were supplied to Eastern National, though two demonstrators were also made. From this was derived the single deck Cygnet and double deck Daring, distinguished by a new style of radiator shell with a central dividing strip. Southampton took four Daring DD chassis with Park Royal H28/26R bodies in 1933, and these were powered by the 7.76 litre AC6 ohv petrol engine. In the following year another Daring arrived in the fleet, making a total of just five, but this had the first production example of Thornycroft’s 7.88 litre DC6 diesel engine, an indirect injection design yielding 98 bhp at 2100 rpm. A Park Royal H26/24R body was fitted, the different seating from the earlier Darings possibly arising from a repositioned bulkhead to accommodate the diesel engine. (The 6LW powered Darings of SHMD had similar modest seating capacities.) Peter Gould’s list shows this bus as having the AC6 petrol engine, and it may well have been initially so fitted, but the bus ran in service with the diesel. The success of this unit may be gauged by the fact that Southampton’s next bus orders went to Guy and Gardner. All Southampton’s five Darings were subsequently re-engined with 5LWs. OBP has an post on these buses (Southampton Corporation – Thornycroft Daring – OW 3434 – 9), and the picture submitted above by Chris H is a “hand coloured” version of a pre delivery photo of the same bus:- www.bobmockford.co.uk/museum/ Meanwhile, in the trying trading conditions of the mid 1930s – serious losses were incurred between 1932 and 1936 – differences in opinion arose at the Thornycroft board level. Tom Thornycroft, an advocate of the company’s involvement in the bus and coach market, resigned from the firm. The limited sales of Darings and Cygnets convinced the board that there was no future for the company in the passenger chassis market, and the company withdrew all bespoke bus/coach models from 1936. In post war Southampton, the change in supplier from Guy to Leyland and AEC followed the retirement of Manager Percival Baker in 1954. As so often occurred elsewhere in municipal bus management, his successor clearly took a different view on bus procurement matters. The next double deck orders were not placed until 1960/61, by which time Guy was again offering the Arab. (The above information on Thornycroft bus chassis has been derived from several sources, but particularly from Alan Townsin’s book on the manufacturer.)
Roger Cox
31/08/16 – 06:43
David Field’s comments about the interior lights on Provincial’s ex SCT Arabs is interesting. My memory of the post war Arabs in the Southampton fleet is that they had glass covers / shades on all interior cabin lights and that the only pre 1950 Arabs with a sliding window behind the driver’s were those vehicles used for driving training (Fleet nos 114, 129 and 150 ) none of which were sold to Provincial.
Peter Elliott
31/08/16 – 06:43
With regard to the Darings, Nottingham purchased 4 second hand from Southampton in 1947, but according to a book I possess (including a corroborating photograph) these were Southampton 6, 60, 61 and 61 (OW9932 and AOW263-5) supposedly supplied originally in 1936 and 1937 respectively. (Unfortunately I am not at home at the moment, so I cannot say which of the 4 appears in the photo). They were bought to cover post-war shortages, but apparently found little favour, and were withdrawn within a year – largely, no doubt, because they were non-standard.
Stephen Ford
31/08/16 – 09:23
Yes, you’re right, Stephen, and so is Chris H. I completely overlooked the four later deliveries. Southampton took those Darings after trying the early Guy Arab, which itself virtually disappeared from the market after 1936. Perhaps Thornycroft, having lost interest in the heavy psv market, was particularly tardy in completing the order, for those Darings – no.6 was delivered in 1936 and nos.60/1/2 a year later – were the very last of their kind. The model was officially withdrawn in 1936, though a few more single deck Cygnets were made for export. Southampton seems to have been reviewing its double deck needs at that time, as, mixed up amongst the Thornycrofts and Guys was a single Leyland TD4, surely a more advanced vehicle than the Wolverhampton and Basingstoke offerings at that time. This fact must have finally registered because the TD4 and then the TD5 became the standard Southampton double decker until the advent of the wartime Arabs.
Roger Cox
31/08/16 – 16:08
Living in Burgess Road in the 1950’s, most of the Arabs I travelled in were on the relatively easy 15 & 15A routes, so I wonder if these were actually Arab II in their last lives. This would explain things like the exposed bulb interior lights (set in a conical mount as I recall). I can also recall how dim these lights were when the buses were stopped at Swaythling, with engines either idling or possibly even stopped. When it was time to move off, the interior became a veritable blaze of light as the generator kicked in. I don’t think batteries were high on the Council’s spending priorities! There was no need to go to Southsea funfair for a roller coaster ride, all you had to do was get on an Arab LUF single decker that was running late and go down Lances Hill…far scarier than the roller coaster & cheaper too.
David field
01/09/16 – 06:37
Incidentally, Southampton Corp’n were so enamoured with Thornycroft vehicles, the Borough Engineer’s Dep’t, bought dustcarts with Daring-type rads – see //tinyurl.com/hb6h68a And, as another aside, I saw a Dennis ‘dustcart’ yesterday, an Elite6 model. I’d assumed that Dennis had given up making all but Alex-Dennis buses. Seems not.
Chris Hebbron
01/09/16 – 06:38
David, in MacFarlane-Watt’s book, he lists the Arab II members of the fleet, in the DTR series, and says they were delivered in 1944 to 1946. Most were 5LW but DTR907 onwards were 6LW. The first of the Arab III 6LW fleet is reported as being FCR194, delivered in 1948.
Pete Davies
01/09/16 – 10:08
One of my earliest posts was an ex – Southampton Thornycroft Daring in service in London in 1949. Here is the link The last SHMD Daring survived with them until 1959! So those few buyers had their moneysworth out of them.It is a shame that none survived. Thx, Andy H, for the headsup on books with photos of coach/dual-purpose Pompey vehicles.
Chris Hebbron
01/09/16 – 10:09
Chris, the Dennis Eagle dustcart business in Warwick is an entirely separate manufacturing concern from ADL in Guildford. When Dennis fell into the clutches of Mayflower, that ill fated outfit rebranded the Guildford business with the juvenile name “TransBus”. It sold off the Dennis Eagle municipal vehicle side in 1999, and that, together with the “Dennis” name, is now owned by the Spanish firm Ros Roca, which still has a manufacturing base in Warwick. The Guildford factory also made the well known fire appliances until 2007 when the reality of meeting spasmodic and small orders to differing specifications made production uneconomic. The Sabre and Rapier fire engines are regarded as the best machines of their type ever made, but nowadays appliances are built on much cheaper modified standard lorry chassis. Fire engine bodywork is still constructed in Guildford on all makes of chassis by John Dennis Coachbuilders, formed in 1985 by a grandson of one of the family company founders. An interesting point – in the Econic, Mercedes have copied the Dennis dustcart chassis concept whereby the engine is set back to give a low, unobstructed cab. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and Dennis Eagle generally supply the dustcart body anyway.
Roger Cox
02/09/16 – 06:43
Thanks for the information Roger. I – and I’m sure many other people – had simply thought that a modern Dennis was a Dennis, whether it be a ‘dustcart’ or a bus. It just shows how the modern vehicle markets have evolved. I suppose it is not dis-similar to Volvo, where the car business was sold to Ford some years ago, yet the Volvo name continued to appear on both the cars and the commercial vehicles. (Following it’s later sale by Ford, Volvo Cars is I believe now owned by a Chinese company). Although it is somewhat sad to learn that Dennis Eagle is now under foreign ownership, at least – as is the case with DAF Trucks in Leyland – production remains in the UK, and continues to provide much-needed jobs in the engineering sector.
Brendan Smith
02/09/16 – 06:43
What a complex world we live in nowadays, Roger, but your clearly explained post makes the position clear. Underneath the huge chromed DENNIS name was a circular chrome disc with a complex pattern not decipherable at a distance. At least one member of the iconic Dennis family is still in business. This story is slightly less complex than that of Dunlop, which can be read in Wikipedia, if anyone has an hour to spare!!
Chris Hebbron
02/09/16 – 06:43
Peter Davies’ reference to A K MacFarlane Watt’s book on Southampton City Transport (1977) both helps and hinders on two recently posted topics. First, pages 50 and 51 clearly show the interior lighting of the post war Arabs and presumably also extant on the lower decks of 164 and 167 and on both decks of 71. His fleet listing of the Mk III does contain a major inconsistency; in that the chassis numbers carried by 104,106-108, 111-112 and 114 were a continuation of the Mk II series.The PSV Circle Fleet History (1993) has got this matter ‘spot-on’. A key difference could be found in the cab layout:- the Mark II’s had the instruments display mounted in a wooden frame attached to the body below the driver’s windscreen; the Mk IIIs had the display mounted below the steering wheel contained in a black bakelite housing. The comments about dim lights rings a very familiar bell! When I worked at SCT in the mid 60’s, drivers were instructed never to leave a full ‘set on’ when the engine was off! Most of the time however the 12volt system worked pretty well and considerable attention was paid by the maintenance staff to keep vehicles’ batteries in good order.
Peter Elliott
02/09/16 – 06:44
Thanks for that info, Peter. I can remember the DTR regd Arabs, I’m sure on the 15A route. So these are probably what I’m thinking about. Would I be right in thinking they had fabricated rear & possibly front domes? So would have been utility bodies?
David Field
05/09/16 – 06:22
All bar one of the DTR utilities had been withdrawn by 1952 bar one which was eventually rebuilt into a tree lopper. I cannot recall therefore any detail relating to their bodywork.
Peter Elliott
16/12/16 – 15:09
I can vaguely remember that the colour scheme of the Southampton Corporation buses was changed around about the same time that Southampton was awarded City Status. I remember that the older buses that ran when I was a child had the indicator blinds that read TOWN CENTRE whilst the newer buses had the blinds that read CITY CENTRE. So I think that the colour scheme was changed when Southampton gained city status. My elderly parents both who came from Southampton advised me that back in the 1930s whilst the buses were blue and cream, the trams were red and cream. I do remember being taken on the old number 5 route on a bus that had a silver roof circa 1964. It would have the Blind indicator set for WOOLSTON (floating bridge) via Butts Road
C Phillips
17/12/16 – 13:32
C Phillips (16/12/16 – 15:09) refers to a change of colour scheme around the time Southampton gained city status. Southampton was granted city status in 1964, but the change from the blue livery to red for the buses took place in 1945. Ashley Macfarlane-Watt’s book confirms Roger’s explanation above, i.e. that the blue livery did not wear well. To be fair, it would have been thoroughly tested in the previous 6 years, but I can also recall an article in “Buses” in the 1970s referring to problems of durability with blue paint, and hence the relative rarity of blue liveries. The first 12 Leyland PD2s (301-12) were delivered in a red livery with just 2 narrow cream bands, but this did nothing to enhance the overall beauty of the PD2/Park Royal combination, so the livery was changed to include larger areas of cream fairly soon after those buses were delivered. As I understand it, from Mr Macfarlane-Watt’s book and contemporary photos, it was only those first Titans that ever carried that livery, and the subsequent Park Royal-bodied AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2As all carried the livery with more cream from new. The main roof panels (excepting the front and rear dome sections) were silver, but some buses ran with all cream roofs for a time. These vehicles retained their silver roofs throughout the rest of their careers with SCT. When the East Lancs-bodied Regent Vs commenced delivery a year or so later, these carried all cream roofs, and had a deeper cream band below the upper deck windows. There were, therefore, minor changes to the livery for some vehicles “around” the time that Southampton gained city status, but Mr Phillips’ recollection of a bus with a silver roof in 1964 would almost certainly be correct – at that stage, most of the fleet had them.
Nigel Frampton
18/12/16 – 07:13
Going further back in this thread, Chris Hebbron (22/08/16 – 09:23) says, with respect to private hires outside the Portsmouth city area: “However, some arrangement enabled the open-topped TD4’s to go to the Epsom Derby.” This was probably allowed because the buses were not hired as a means of transport, but as mobile grandstands. Southampton used to hire their open top Arab for the same purpose, but they didn’t carry any passengers to or from the Derby. I believe some operators did carry passengers on open toppers going to the Derby, but I would think those were for shorter distances. The prospect of 60 or 70 miles at a maximum of 35 m.p.h. on the top deck of an open topper would probably not appeal to most visitors to the Derby!
Nigel Frampton
18/12/16 – 13:26
Your comment about long journeys by bus, Nigel, reminds me of the London Transport RT’s which used to come to Southsea on Summer garage outings up to the early 1970’s. They would park on Southsea Common by Clarence Pier and the families would disgorge for the day. They would invariably display the home garage on the blind display, along with PRIVATE in the main box. I always recall a green one displaying Watford Garage, which, according to a quick look at G Maps, was nigh on 90 miles away, but there were no motorways/dual carriageways then, apart from the Kingston and Milford by-passes and a short straight stretch north of Horndean. A break at Hindhead and something like 40mph max would have taken about 4 hours. I’m assuming that crates of beer, with concomitant extra stops, were not in the equation!
Chris Hebbron
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/12/16 – 06:23
I am interested to find out what year Southampton Corporation did away with the rear destination blinds on their rear platform buses. When I lived in Southampton back in the 60’s, all of the buses as I recall had a destination blinds at the front and at the rear along with the route number. I recall on a trip back to Southampton finding that all of the buses had had their rear indicator blind windows painted over and only the route number was being shown.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Lancashire United Transport 1949 Guy Arab III Roe B32F
Thanks to Spencer who I think should really be called Sherlock these three have been identified and are here from the “Do You Know” page. The one on the left is as the above specification. L.U.T. was the largest independent operator in the UK and operated in the South Lancashire area. They were quite diverse with there makes of buses including Atkinson, Foden and Dennis but they did like there Guys. I think but I stand to be corrected they bought the last Guys ever built. If I am wrong let me know, leave a comment. The bus in the centre was a Western National Omnibus registration 356 HTT fleet no 992 which was a Bristol K5G with an ECW L27/28R built in 1946. I wish I knew more about the Bristol K series so I could write more, can anybody help on that score if so please get in touch. The bus on the right which I thought was a Leyland Titan is according to Spencer, and I”m not going to argue with him, an L.U.T. Dennis Lance K2 registration GTE 864 fleet no 196 built in 1947 with a Weymann L27/26R body. On further research I have found out that the Dennis Lance K2 had a Gardner 6LW engine which was a 8.4 litre six cylinder diesel. Just in case you want to know the Dennis Lance K3 had a Dennis 8.0 litre six cylinder diesel and the Lance K4 had a Gardner 5LW 7.0 litre five cylinder diesel. The K4 also had a concealed radiator a touch like the well known Birmingham style, the K 2 and 3 had exposed radiators.
The last Guy Arabs delivered to a British operator actually went to Chester City and were 1969/70 H registered, LUT bought their last Guy in 1967.
Chris Hough
Chris is right the last three Guy Arab Vs delivered to Chester Corporation had Northern Counties H41/32F bodies, registrations DFM 345-7H, fleet numbers 45-47.
Spencer
I thought that LUT had either one or two Guy Wufrunians which they didn’t like and sold them on to West Riding Auto?
Geoff
They only had one Geoff.
137 were built in total delivered as follows
126 West Riding 2 County Motors 2 Wolverhampton Corporation 2 Accrington Corporation 1 West Wales 1 Bury Corporation 1 Lancashire United
Spencer
The Bristol K series and the closely associated ECW bodies – a most complex and fascinating subject concerning two absolutely top class and rightly successful manufacturers. The vehicle shown is one of the very first post-war standard models bought widely by the Tilling Group. It is to the standard dimensions of the time, 26 feet x 7 feet 6 inches. “K5G” denotes the popular 5 cylinder Gardner 7.0 litre engine. The “lowbridge” low height body is of the type with all the upper saloon seats on the nearside, and a sunken offside gangway sadly causing pain and injury to the offside lower deck passengers, especially those who hadn’t seen the little notice “Lower your head when leaving your seat” – a high but necessary price to pay for the often essential reduction in overall height, until the invention of the highly ingenious “Lodekka.” A fair few of the early post-war vehicles of this type suffered the indignity of being diverted on loan to London Transport when brand new – this must have gone down very badly with the purchasing operators and their staff – I’ve always held the opinion that it was abominably unfair, and that older vehicles should have been sent to assist with the shortage in the Capital.
Chris Youhill
I agree with Chris’s comments re-London getting other operators’ new buses. But think of the poetic justice – London Transport drivers having to do proper gear-changing!
Stephen Ford
I hadn’t really thought of that Stephen but of course you’re right, although we tend to forget after all these years that legions of manual gearbox STs and LTs etc had “only just gone” in the late 1940s. The strange quantity, seventy six, of the new all Leyland PD1s (STD 101 – 176) had also just arrived and would be “sorting the men from the boys” too.
Chris Youhill
It’s a bit off-subject, but I have often suspected that the reason why Nottingham broke with the long AEC tradition, and went for Daimlers as their first orders after the war was the strong preference for pre-selector. I gather AEC could only offer crash-gearbox Regent IIs initially. By 1949 NCT was again taking pre-selector Regent IIIs in large volumes, and the 31 CVD6s of 1948 remained an anomaly.
Stephen Ford
31/01/11
I lived in Clifton, between Swinton and Kearsley until 1948, I know!!!, and remember that LUT had a number of Guy double deckers, which were painted matt grey, had squared-off roof corners and wooden slat seats. At the end of the war one was painted white and had ‘fairy lights’ all round. Just a passing comment.
Jim Moyse
31/01/11 – 20:28
Words/phrases like ‘abominably’ and ‘poetic justice’ are surely a bit strong! Central Division London Transport had barely digested its independents with their multiplicity of makes by 1939. It had updated Green Line and then ordered some 350-odd RT’s which were cut back to 150, and was due to replace much of its fleet by 1942. It lost many vehicles in the Blitz/V bomb attacks (22 complete Tilling STL’s alone at the bombed Croydon Garage, with others damaged) and used up its body float on patched up chassis. It lent out a considerable number of vehicles for most of the latter part of the war, mainly petrol Tilling ST’s, many of which, on return, were condemned (the last didn’t return until 1947). Buses were failing faster than they could be replaced, despite many vehicles being renovated to an excellent standard and other bodies strapped up and maybe even held together by string! What didn’t help was RT production being delayed by a year so that the bodies could be jig-built. Craven-bodied RT’s and SRT’s helped fill gaps. Passengers rocketed, with the maximum number reached in 1949. And it was borrowing a lot of vehicles (mainly coaches) from outsiders. By 1949, nationalised, it was probably a good decision by BTC to quickly allocate new buses, than have a lot of near-scrap vehicles cascaded over a period of months. It says something for Chiswick that buses designed for a 10 year lifespan lasted over twice that in some cases, even without a rebuild. Some LT ‘scooters’ lasted over 21 years! And there were still plenty of manual gear change buses in 1949, all 435 Guys, Bristols, (austerity STD’s (they WERE a challenge!), many T’s, pre and post-war, TD’s and some country STL’s on loan. Many of the drivers would originally have come from independents and be familiar with manual ‘boxes. If any men were sorted out from the boys, I’d say it was the tram drivers who had to convert over to buses!!
Chris Hebbron
01/02/11 – 05:44
Hi Chris – all a harmless bit of banter! On the same subject, I recall a Meccano Magazine cartoon at the time of the vehicle loans to London. It featured a number of buses from various cities, which were sweeping round Trafalgar Square in brilliant sunshine – all except for a Manchester Corporation vehicle which was driving along under its own permanent rain cloud.
Stephen Ford
01/02/11 – 05:44
Many very valid and respected points there Chris H and I must confess that I’d never really studied the “diverted new vehicles” question to such a depth. So I can now see the matter in a more informed way and amend my “abominably unfair” criticism somewhat – but I do still feel though that the intended recipients, both engineering and operating, of the shiny new steeds may well have felt somewhat maligned and I think that I would too. I agree about the tram drivers’ dilemma and I think it nothing short of miraculous that they were able to make the conversion in such large numbers, and those changing to trolleybuses didn’t have a very much easier alternative either !!
Chris Youhill
01/02/11 – 18:52
My comment was light-hearted, too, but I thought a bit a background info would be interesting. I also forgot to mention that the government of the day put a restriction on the number of PSV deliveries, which, in 1948, meant a shortfall of 748 in RT deliveries, which must have been devastating. Although this restriction applied nationally, too, the misery would have been spread out more and the effect less per operator. It is on record that the diversion of the new Bristol/ECW steeds caused a lot of resentment to intended recipients. As for London Transport, the ever-difficult Met. Police put in their two penn’orth by banning lowbridge buses with their so-called slower dwell-times at bus stops, relenting eventually by restricting them from certain routes! This meant that, at times, the Bristol K5G’s were put on hilly routes they were unsuitable for. And there were problems with hinged doors and garage capacity! In some ways, welcome though they were, they must have been a mixed blessing to LTE. If anyone has an interest in reading more, Ken Glazier’s book ‘Routes to Recovery’ is the one to buy. As for tram drivers in London, when LPTB was formed in 1933, the LCC was the dominant tram operator and there was resentment that local authority staff, some admin, who just happened to be there at that point of their career, were trapped in PSV-land from then on. However, there was no retirement age for such staff and many tram drivers went on for years after the LPTB retirement age! But enough, I’m digressing!
Chris Hebbron
02/02/11 – 06:23
This further information is extremely interesting to me and tells me much that I never knew, even though I was a frequent visitor to Streatham SW16 throughout the War and until around 1995. I well remember the K5Gs on route 137, and I believe that they were not confined to parts of the service but undertook the full very long journey from Highgate Archway Tavern to Crystal Palace. Based no doubt at Victoria (Gillingham Street GM) they probably posed few problems to the drivers there as the Leyland PD1s STD 101 – 176 (or a number of them) were already there. I can imagine the frustration though at having to stop half way up Central Hill at Norwood when already half an hour late at busy times. Happy days for dedicated busmen.
Chris Youhill
02/02/11 – 21:03
Would the Tilling companies concerned have been consulted about the arrangement beforehand or was it a done deal by a higher authority? When the Bristols eventually reached their rightful owners, effectively as second hand vehicles, was there any compensation or had the companies simply been obliged to lend a hand without question?
Chris Barker
07/03/11 – 09:21
After LUT were taken over by GMT, Barton of Chilwell became the largest independent operator who too had a very diverse fleet just like LUT.
Roger Broughton
07/03/11 – 16:03
Chris B – It was a done deal! The Tilling Group had voluntarily sold out to the BTC in September 1948 and almost immediately were told to divert 25% of their new deliveries to LTE, some 200, later reduced to 190 (45 lowbridge). The order annoyed the operators, who felt that LTE had brought the shortage on itself by delaying new vehicle production by insisting the RT family bodies be jig-built. The first Bristols came in December 1948 and the last went in June 1950. Most other non-Tilling buses which helped out were single-deckers, although my posting about the Thorneycroft Daring mentioned it was one exception. Others were three new Daimler/Brush CVG6’s from Maidstone Corporation and, from Leeds Corporation, 17 pre-war AEC Regents/Roe (with one Weymann) with pre-selective gearboxes (Leeds STL’s)! Unlike the other surplus austerity buses, which went all over the place, but were banned from going to a BET company, when the 29 austerity Bristols were then ready to leave LTE, the word was put out to BTC in advance, so that the ex-Tilling companies could prepare for their transfer.
Chris Hebbron
10/03/11 – 07:41
Referring to the comment by Jim Moyse, I suspect the grey Guy’s were wartime deliveries with utility specification bodies. A trip to most local libraries in South Lancashire should yield a copy of British Bus And Trolleybus Systems number 7, Lancashire United/SLT, which details the whole story. With regard to the Guy Arab IV’s and V’s of the fifties/sixties, a friend of mine drove these, working out of Swinton depot. He subsequently purchased number 134, 6218 TF, the penultimate open rear platform model, later disposed of, current owner/location unknown. A peculiarity of the gearbox is that depressing the clutch pedal to it’s full stroke before selecting first gear results in the the box locking, preventing any attempt to upshift. I can’t remember whether double-declutching released it, or whether it was necessary to stop the vehicle. Apparently something around 75% of pedal travel is all that is required for normal operation.
Phil Meadows
15/03/11 – 16:43
It’s taken me a while to puzzle out Phil’s gearbox lock-up. Pressing the clutch pedal all the way down activates a device called a clutch-stop, which is a transmission brake on the shaft connecting the clutch to the gearbox. This may be useful in counteracting clutch-spin when engaging a gear at rest, but more importantly it can be used to speed up gear-changing. The clutch-stop on Guys was more gentle than on Bristols and Leylands, producing a comfortably fast change rather than a rapid one. But I’ve never heard of a clutch stop locking a gearbox before. I finally realised that trying to move out of gear with a transmission brake on is exactly like trying to do so with the clutch engaged and the engine stopped. The gearbox input shaft needs to be free to rotate, so you need to lift the clutch pedal slightly to free it off.
Peter Williamson
18/06/11 – 18:31
Just a small point in the original note to this picture. The Dennis Lance K3 certainly had a Dennis power plant, but it was the O6 of 7.58 litres capacity, a four valve per cylinder engine of excellent quality. The 8 litre variant of this engine didn’t appear until the later 1950s. Dennis was the only British manufacturer to design and produce diesel engines with four valve heads, in 5 litre, 5.5 litre, 7.58 litre and 8 litre sizes. The Crossley HOE7 was initially designed as a “four valver” using Saurer concepts, but, when Saurer asked for a royalty payment, the Crossley engine was rapidly redesigned as a “two valver”, with disastrous consequences, becoming notorious for its poor performance and unreliability. Turning to the “London Transport question”, a great many London buses were certainly rebuilt in their lifetimes, particularly when Aldenham was up and going. Even some of the older types were given major body overhauls. Many of the six wheeled LT single deck “scooters”, which I am old enough to be able to recall having travelled on, on routes 213 and 234, were given major body overhauls by Marshalls of Cambridge around 1949. From the RT type onwards, London buses were designed to be taken apart every five years or so, with chassis and body being sent on separate tracks through Aldenham Works. Each chassis emerging at the far end then took the first available rebuilt body, not the one it went in with. No other operator in the land followed this costly procedure, and the supposed long life of London bus types needs to be balanced against the regular visits to Aldenham. The much vaunted RM only survived for so long in London service because of this rebuilding procedure. The Northern General RMs, which had to rely on standard overhaul methods, were withdrawn around 1980 after a life of some 15 years.
Roger Cox
01/09/11 – 10:55
In Relation to Lancashire United’s Sole Guy Wulfrunian, they actually ordered 3 to be fleet numbers 58-60 in the Post 1959 fleet, but only 58 (802 RTC) was delivered it being unpopular, there is a picture of it shown close to Atherton depot on service 82 on flickr. The remaining order for 2 was changed and materialised as the trusted Guy Arab fleet number 59 and 60. The Last numbered Guy Arab in the LUT fleet was 290 delivered in 1967 (265-290) In the post 1959 fleet LUT Guy Arabs were 18-27 with Northern counties body 40-49 with Metro Cammell Weymann bodies (40 was rebuilt in 1966 to a front door layout following serious accident on the East Lancs road at Ellenbrook) 50-57 NCME 59 and 60, then 61-80, 103-135 all rear loaders with NCME 136 (6220TF) was the first build front loader NCME 159-170, 186-195, 218-240, 265-290 all NCME Many an enjoyable day riding on, conducting and driving these buses I worked at LUT Atherton from being 18 in 1977 until it closed on 7th Feb 1998. I still work for First now some 34 years.
Chris Stott
02/09/11 – 11:23
With regard to the loaned Provincial Bristols to L.T.E. if you watch the film starring Jack Warner The Blue Lamp one passes by in the dark in one scene.
Philip Carlton
26/11/12 – 08:39
In the list of Guy Wulfrunian chassis above the total of 137 is correct but missing from the list underneath are the two demonstrators, 7800 DA and 8072 DA. I believe that they were both ultimately sold to West Riding for spares. Sold to West Riding for service were the LUT, West Wales, and two County examples – one of the ex-County ones is now preserved. Despite their illogical layout, both the Accrington ones saw further service. I have read that they initially went to Ronsway of Hemel Hempstead, but one finished up with Byley Garage in Cheshire – and they did use it, as I saw it on the road on one occasion. The Bury one was sold on to a succession of Welsh independents before ending up with Berresford’s at Cheddleton – I’m not sure whether or not it was actually used there. Later it was placed in storage behind GMT’s Hyde Road depot as a prelude to a proposed preservation, but for reasons which now escape me, this ultimately didn’t come to pass. The two Wolverhampton examples failed to sell to any subsequent operator. Until I read Chris’s post above I had quite forgotten that LUT 59 & 60 had been intended to be Wulfrunians. The order was presumably altered before even No.58 had been constructed.
David Call
26/11/12 – 10:28
Talking of Wulfrunians, coincidentally I have just been re-reading David Harvey’s fascinating book ‘The Forgotten Double Deckers’, in which he states that Rotherham and Belfast had ordered three and one Wulfrunians respectively but cancelled their orders very quickly when they began to hear bad news about the model. The two cancelled LUT buses would have been rear entrance types like Accrington’s pair, as would even more incredibly a pair provisionally ordered by Todmorden J.O.C – a staunch and very traditional Leyland customer. The mind just boggles at the thought of Todmorden Wulfrunians climbing up to Mankinholes!
John Stringer
27/11/12 – 07:32
I recall that West Riding ordered a batch of single deck Wulfrunians but changed the order in favour of double deckers. What would they have looked like? I was interested in the information about potential customers who suddenly got cold feet.
Philip Carlton
29/11/12 – 07:32
I imagine that a single-deck Wulfrunian would have worked a lot better than the double-deck ones did, owing to the reduction in weight. As to what it would have looked like, I think that would depend on whether Roe were allowed to design it themselves or had more nonsense imposed on them by Park Royal. It’s a fascinating thought, as there were no low-floor single deckers around at all at that point.
Peter Williamson
29/11/12 – 11:05
Wasn’t the Guy Victory export chassis to some extent a version of a single deck Wulfrunian? I believe it had a front mounted engine, semi-automatic transmission, disc brakes and optional air suspension.
John Stringer
03/11/14 – 06:24
I can see that this thread is almost two years old … but regarding LUT Wulfrunians. I always thought that nos 58 AND 59 left the bodyworker en-route to Atherton BUT No 59 was written off in a road traffic accident before arriving in Howe Bridge?
Iain H
07/11/14 – 15:43
Iain H, Please refer to Bus lists on the web and can you see any NCME body numbers for 58 & 59 if they were built as Wulfrinians? No, they were built as standard 30 rear entrance Arab IV’s
Mike N
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
07/09/20 – 06:11
Regarding the Accrington Wulfrunians they were in sense Guy Arabs having manual gearboxes instead of a semi automatic one. Why Accrington specified rear entrance is probably due to the council committee at the time (look at 14,15 and 16) these came as rear entrances
