Tag: Guy

LUT – Guy Arab IV – 534 RTB – 43

534 RTB

Lancashire United Transport
1961
Guy Arab IV 
MCCW H41/32R

534 RTB is a Guy Arab IV from the Lancashire United fleet, once considered by many to be the biggest of the Independents. Regular contributor to this site Neville Mercer, among others, disagrees. It has a Metropolitan Cammell body, to the H73R layout, and was new in 1961. We see it at Duxford on 29 September 1996.

534 RTB_2

Tis second view being of a close-up of the LUT Crest.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

26/01/17 – 10:30

Among my milder teenage dislikes were tin fronts, Orion bodies and (almost) all-over red liveries, but none of these three features detracts from the magnificence of this vehicle. The matchless reliability of this model and its sound-effects obviously also play a big part in its appeal. Sincere thanks to all that preserve and maintain Guy Arabs!

Ian Thompson

26/01/17 – 14:32

Thanks, Ian. The LUT fleet was something of an oddity in that the indicator layout – in the days I paid any attention to the fleet – was similar to Manchester’s while the livery was more or less in the style of London Transport: red and cream then, when LT went to red and a grey stripe, so did LUT. Finding that this has a MCCW body came as a bit of a surprise, too, because almost all the vehicles I’ve ever seen from their fleet (I know, someone’s going to correct me!) had Northern Counties bodies.

Pete Davies

27/01/17 – 06:27

Pete you are right, the majority of LUT’s Guy Arabs had Northern Counties bodies, both rear and forward entrance. I understand the copy Manchester destination arrangement was the result of a senior manager joining LUT from Manchester sometime in the 1950’s. The same gentleman brought preselect Daimlers into the fleet at the same time. The ‘squared off’ type of font was also used on the destination blinds just the same as Manchester. I always thought LUT was a ‘quality’ operation and although an independent had all the features of a big group company. Many of its routes were lengthy trunk services across what was then South Lancashire. Another operator sadly missed.

Philip Halstead

27/01/17 – 11:27

Thank you, Philip.

Pete Davies

27/01/17 – 11:29

Is this the same vehicle that was parked up in a garden at Greenodd, near Ulverston, Cumbria for quite while in the 1980s?

Larry B

30/01/17 – 07:19

Thanks Pete for posting this photograph.
43 was one of three of this batch allocated to Swinton Depot in the early 70’s (of the batch of ten) I have always thought that LUT gave this body order to MCW as a means of keeping NCME’s prices keen, as LUT were making yearly purchases of Arabs.
They were quite a problem to Guard on the heavier turns due to their total lack of handrails between the seat backs and the ceiling on both decks, when all NCME bodied Guys did have them. Later, when I became a Driver, I found them to be pretty much the same as all the other rear loading Guys, but by then, 43, 44 & 45 were on the part day only list, so were generally to be seen in Trafford Park on work services or peak hour duplicates, as their missing handrails proving unpopular at Swinton. Another of the batch at Atherton, 40 was involved in a pretty bad accident mid sixties and was rebodied by NCME as a front loader.
The unofficial notice in the cab read – dwarfs only! – as being an Arab Mk IV with a Mk V.
Style of body severely reduced head height in the cab!

Mike Norris

30/01/17 – 12:43

Thanks for your comments, Mike. As with any others of my photos on this site, if you’d like him to e-mail you a copy for your own records, our Editor has my permission to do so.

Pete Davies

01/02/17 – 17:03

I remember LUT single deckers running into Radcliffe Bus Station on the 25 service, I think it was. They were mostly Bristol REs with a few Seddons, some had Alexander bodywork with dual doors and all were in the red/grey colour scheme by that time (early 70s).

David Pomfret

02/02/17 – 06:24

As a follow-on the Peter D’s comments, Who vied with LUT as being considered the largest independent bus company at that time?

Chris Hebbron

02/02/17 – 08:23

Chris, I’d have said Barton or West Riding. Please note that Neville discounts West Riding as well, and for the same reasons: not owned by a family local to the area of operations (eg Fishwick) and with most directors based in London. On Neville’s reasoning, it’s Barton.

Pete Davies

02/02/17 – 13:37

I had always heard that Barton was second to LUT, but logically, I would suggest that “independent” had nothing to do with where the owners lived, but whether control was separate from the large groups – e.g. THC, BET. Obviously there was a large element of government control in these groups (and local government in municipal operators), but in today’s scenario I would also exclude the major groups like First, Stagecoach etc. as independents, even though they are free of government control.

Stephen Ford

03/02/17 – 06:12

Hello David,
You are correct about the 25 service to Radcliffe. The 25 and the 13 service to Whitefield were worked by Swinton depots RE,s in the main, both the Plaxton and the Alexander bodied Bristols were always first choice for these routes ( and the 11 and 17 too) their easy steering (in pre power steering made them so) they were just that little bit more nimble on the estate work around Harper Green. I enjoyed these routes as the stretch beyond Ringley was usually quiet and relatively scenic within the bounds of what scenery there was to see in South Lancashire ! Don’t get me wrong, I loved our Seddon RU,s but an RE was the master of these routes.

Mike Norris

03/02/17 – 14:12

Do I read this correctly, Mike? Someone claims to have LOVED the Seddon RU. I knew I shouldn’t have gone to that firm of opticians!!!!! It’s almost like one of the Hamble locals admitting to have watched ‘Howards Way’.

Pete Davies

04/02/17 – 07:15

Hello Pete,
Someone has not been keeping up with LUT and their Seddon RU,s!
Very definitely a great tool for us for on the hardest, longest, busiest one man route the 84. So highly considered that if one became faulty, the union had an understanding with management that if no other RU was available, a maximum of one round trip only was worked before another RU was found. Swinton depots were highly prized if you got one on any other route, great seat, great driving position, strong engine and good brakes.
LUT, were different from most others, with front radiator and full length cardan drive shaft hence their 31 foot six length. If you find a rear view, you will see the body extension. My particular favourite was 339, I would shunt others to get that one out in the mornings! Yes there is lots in print, especially the Crosville ones, but ours were great.

Mike Norris

04/02/17 – 09:23

Well, as they say, one lives and learns!!! Thanks, Mike.

Pete Davies

05/02/17 – 07:40

Unfamiliar with all the variants on the Orion theme, I don’t know whether this example was significantly lighter than the NCME bodies and therefore chosen to help fuel consumption, as well as for the interesting reason Mike Norris gave: reminding NCME that they weren’t the only fish in the sea!
If the bodies were indeed true lightweights, the buses must have returned nearly 13 mpg.

Ian Thompson

05/02/17 – 09:31

Presumably this bus had the 6LX engine. The 6LW Dennis Lolines of Aldershot & District gave a fleet average of 13.5 mpg, and could turn in almost 16 mpg on the long rural runs, but A&D maintenance was of a very high standard. On the subject of the Orion body and its derivatives, I agree with Ian T – they’re horrible. The straight inward taper of the body sides gave the result a pin headed appearance exacerbated by the deep lower deck/shallow upper deck windows, and the crudity of the front/rear domes. The best examples by far were (again) the Aldershot & District examples which benefited from the lower build and the equal depth of the windows on both decks, and, unlike many (most?) Orions, the interior was equipped to a high standard. Nevertheless, MCW had earned a good reputation over the years for its metal bodywork framing, so presumably the Orion held together reasonably well in service.

Roger Cox

05/02/17 – 12:06

You raise an interesting point, Roger, with your comments. After Alder Valley was formed, from two opposite sides of the fence, one of which always ploughed its own furrow, which of the two management and maintenance regimes dominated?

Chris Hebbron

06/02/17 – 06:43

Chris, when Alder Valley was cobbled together by NBC in 1972, control and ‘management’ was concentrated at Reading. Thus, the worst and scruffiest of the Tilling operators, Thames Valley, subsumed the best of the BET companies, Aldershot & District. Standards didn’t just go downhill, they fell over a cliff. Mercifully, I moved away from Farnborough in 1975, and wasn’t present to witness the continued degeneration in the local public transport scene.

Roger Cox

06/02/17 – 06:44

This was the third and last order for Orion bodies by LUT. In 1955 Cyril Charles Oakham took over as General Manager. Coming from Manchester Corporation where he had been Chief Engineer, he was to make a number of changes, the first of which to order 24 Daimler CVG5s which arrived in 1956 with 61 seat Orion bodies. Obviously Oakham did not share his former boss’s antipathy to the Orion. These appeared in a revised livery of all over red apart from a single cream band above the lower deck windows, as was soon to appear at MCTD, and with the Manchester style number, via and destination box layout. His next change was to order PD3/4s and Daimler CSG6/30s as trolleybus replacements, the former with Orion, the latter with NCME bodies. The last Leyland, 657, was the highest fleet number used by LUT as the system started again at 1 with the first of six Plaxton bodied Reliances. The batch illustrated by the example above gave LUT a rare distinction of operating Orion bodies on chassis from three of the then major manufacturers. In between times, and thereafter, NCME continued to be favoured with orders for bodies and Guy predominated with Daimler later picking up some Fleetline orders which, had the Wulfrunian lived up to its billing, would not have been built. Why did Leyland, Daimler and MCW win the front engined vehicle orders from LUT? The evidence is that initially Oakham wanted a second string supplier for double decker chassis a la Manchester and NCME’s tenders were not always the most competitive.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/02/17 – 06:32

I like Seddon RUs so much I own one…
The LUT Arab at Greenodd was 166 I believe, it was painted as a Laurel and Hardy Museum bus and is stored at St Helens Transport Museum presently.

Paul Turner

02/08/17 – 07:10

I’m going to leave a rebuttal to Roger Cox’s evaluation of ‘Avashot and Riskit versus Thames Valley. Most of my 25 years were spent in the coach side of things where the general focus was on the passenger and the experience they had. Viewed from that angle, but not suggesting for a moment that there weren’t good and bad in all companies, I’d far rather have tried to do business in High Wycombe booking office in the 70s than in Aldershot. Those companies that tried to develop their services would project a far more user friendly attitude than would the stick in the mud ‘buses only’ type.
Who would compare Western National with A&D, or Midland Red with Maidstone & District as ‘quality’ companies, and where would we be more likely to hear ‘This job would be all right if it wasn’t for the public.’? I started life with another of the ‘glamour’ companies, Southdown, but even there I once took a service over mid-route and heard an old lady say ‘Oh good. We’ve got the cheerful one.’ which doesn’t say much for my colleagues of the time.
Within ‘our’ industry we can, and do, wax lyrical about the internal aspects of what we do, but it’s the paying passenger who makes it all possible.

Nick Turner

03/08/17 – 06:54

My in-laws, from Woking, always called A&D “All aboard and Riskit!”
I’m not sure whether people at the pointy end, conductors and later/now drivers, were ever told to project a friendly manner towards their passengers, although I do recall helpfulness towards the frailer members of society and children, like helping them up and down from high rear platforms. I certainly (as a near 80-year-old) don’t recall smiles and banter as being the norm in those days. Strangely, the current habit of thanking the driver, from descending passengers, seems to have become a pleasant habit(at least in Gloucestershire) and has led to some sort of driver/passenger rapport. Is this habit only local or more general elsewhere?

Chris Hebbron

03/08/17 – 15:07

I’d never heard that variation for A&D, Chris, but the awarding of usually derisory nicknames seemed to reflect their public image, hence my defence of Thames Valley. One never heard nicknames for East Kent or Southdown – but Maidstone & District, in the middle, was always ‘Mud ‘n’ Dust’ or ‘Muddle ‘n’ Dawdle’. ‘Pants & Corsets’ for H&D was widespread and even ‘Nine Elms’ for Lincolnshire Road Car, based on the similarity of their livery with the paint company. Indeed, promotion within NBC (No Bugger Cares) followed distinct patterns and a move to one of the bigger names like United Auto, Bristol Omnibus, Crosville etc was, in itself, regarded as a promotion whereas Lincs Road Car had a reputation as being the NBC equivalent of the ‘naughty step’.
Certainly in rural areas, the closing of the Dormy Sheds was the thin end of a very nasty wedge.

Nick Turner

01/09/17 – 06:05

In belated reply to Roger Cox, LUT’s Arabs did not have 6LX engines. One did (no.27), but it was found that the Guy clutch didn’t like the 6LX torque, and the necessary modifications made the bus very difficult to drive.

Peter Williamson

06/09/17 – 06:35

With a nifty sidestep from buses to railways, Nick, I wonder if ‘First Great Western’ changed its name to ‘GWR’ because its poor reputation caused it to commonly be nicknamed ‘Worst Great Western!’

Chris Hebbron

08/09/17 – 06:38

One could be charitable, Chris, and blame the change on a nostalgic wish?

Nick Turner

05/10/20 – 06:38

534 RTB past to ETC members Mick Betterton & Syd Eade 8/20

John Wakefield

Exeter Corporation – Guy Arab – UFJ 297 – 57

Exeter Corporation - Guy Arab - UFJ 297 - 57

Exeter Corporation
1957
Guy Arab IV
Park Royal H31/26R

Until 1956, Exeter Corporation’s only experience of the Gardner engine came with five Bristol GO5G buses of 1935. All had gone by 1948. Exeter did not accept any utility buses until 1944, but these were seven Daimler CWA6, and ten more of the same type followed in 1945. It appeared that the Corporation had set its face determinedly against the Guy Arab. In the years up to 1950, the Daimler CWD6/CVD6 rather than the Gardner powered alternative then became the favoured chassis, a total of thirty three entering service, apart from a batch of seventeen Leyland PD2/1 in 1947. After 1950, Exeter did not order any new buses until 1956, when the Corporation turned unexpectedly to the 6LW powered Guy Arab IV, variously with Massey, Park Royal and MCW bodywork. Guy Arab IV UFJ 297, No. 57 of 1957 is seen in Exeter Bus Station in the early summer of 1970, shortly after the sale of the Corporation’s passenger transport interests to the National Bus Company, which sadly occurred in April of that year. The supremely elegant H31/26R Park Royal body style with the deeper saloon windows is essentially similar to those being delivered to East Kent on tin fronted Arab IVs at that time, and it amply illustrates the catastrophic collapse in design standards from the sublime to the ridiculous that subsequently afflicted that formerly respected coachbuilder. Apart from a delivery of five Leyland PD2/40 in 1958, Exeter stayed with the Arab until 1960, when Guy, besotted with its new wonder Wulfrunian, withdrew the Arab from the market.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

13/06/17 – 06:39

I didn’t know Guy withdrew the Arab from the market in 1960. Its absence can’t have lasted long, as Lancashire United received Arab IVs in 1960, 1961 and 1962, and Arab Vs from 1963 onward.

Peter Williamson

13/06/17 – 09:12

Yes, Guy did take the Arab off the market, convinced that the Wulfrunian would conquer in its place. In 1960 the Guy company collapsed and Jaguar took over the Wolverhampton business. It was pressure from established aficionados of the marque, together with the almost universal rejection of the troublesome Wulfrunian that then quickly led to the reinstatement of the Arab.

Roger Cox

13/06/17 – 13:59

13-06-2017 at 07-42

The slightly earlier Massey bodied Arab (superbly maintained by Wyvern Omnibus Ltd) appeared at the GWR (Gloucestershire & Warwickshire Railway) 1940s weekend earlier in the year. The crest and name are particularly impressive. The photos were taken by Mr Ray Phillips aka “Ray the Spiv”, sometimes seen on wanted posters at 1940s events!

Andrew Gosling

17/06/17 – 10:04

Magnificent bus, and what sound-effects! Colin Shears told me that when faced with the choice of which of the Massey-bodied batch to preserve he went straight for TFJ 808, as it had the most musical gearbox of the lot. What a pity, though, that none of the Park Royals survived. A question: was the Arab IV available to the end, or was it replaced by the Arab V?

Ian Thompson

18/06/17 – 06:52

Firstly, I should correct the date I gave in my comment above. Guy went into receivership and was bought by the Jaguar Group in 1961, not 1960 – apologies. Turning to Ian’s enquiry, the Arab V, which was introduced after the Jaguar takeover, was fundamentally a Mark IV with a chassis frame lowered by 2½ inches enabling the forward entrance to be accessed by just two steps instead of the three usual on conventional front engined chassis. Thus the Mark IV was simply supplanted by the Mark V in production until the last Mark Vs were delivered to Chester in 1969.

Roger Cox

19/06/17 – 07:18

Since this is a discussion emanating from a 27-foot Arab IV, it should be pointed out that at that length the Arab IV was actually supplanted by the Daimler CCG6 (Chesterfield at least having a Guy order transferred to Daimler), while Guy concentrated on 30-foot Arabs and dreamed of Wulfrunian orders. The 27-foot Arab V came into being eventually, but I understand only one batch were built – for Cardiff.

Peter Williamson

20/06/17 – 07:15

There is a bit more history behind the Daimler CCG6. From 1959, Daimler tried to get more of the ‘non preselector’ market by introducing the CSG6 with the David Brown synchromesh gearbox. The David Brown box proved to have reliability problems, and when Jaguar bought the Guy company, the indestructible Guy constant mesh gearbox replaced the troublesome David Brown unit in the CCG5/6 models, which, like the Arab V, were available from 1962.

Roger Cox

Marshalls – Guy Arab III – PEH 261

Marshalls - Guy Arab III - PEH 261

Marshalls of Bradford
1951
Guy Arab III
Windover C33F

This coach first appeared on the do you know page and is from the Paul Haywood collection information supplied by John Kaye provided the history regarding this very nice half canopy Guy Arab III photographed at Blackpool in 1963. This coach was bought new by Scraggs of Cheadle which is halfway between Stoke-on-Trent and Uttoxeter, Staffordshire. They did not keep it very long as it was bought the following year 1952 by Ripponden & District Motors, Ripponden is a small village about five or six miles to the west of Halifax, Yorkshire. There main business was light haulage in the Yorkshire/Lancashire area they had two nick names from people who new them, ‘Rippi Dicks’ and ‘Rush and Dash’ but if you were to ask an employee where they worked the answer they would always come back with would be ‘down district’.
Hebble Motors of Halifax bought out Ripponden & District Motors coach excursions in 1957 and left them to concentrate wholly on there haulage business. Four years before being taken over they sold the Guy on to Marshalls of Bradford.
If you look carefully you can just see a name plate on the near side just below the saloon window it reads “Highway Princess” did Marshalls name it or did it always have a name. If you know please leave a comment.

09/02/11 – 05:49

This picture brought back happy memories! A group of Students from Bradford Grammar School hired this coach from Marshalls in 1959 for a trip to Merseyside to see the first production Atlantean, and also take in Birkenhead Corporation buses. It certainly carried the Highway Princess name at that time.
As an aside, its was interesting to note that at the same time as Wallasey were commissioning the Atlantean, Birkenhead had just put a batch of PD2/40’s with exposed radiators into service. Examples of both types (FHF 451 from Wallasey and FBG 910 from Birkenhead) have made it into preservation.

David Bate

24/11/12 – 08:26

PEH 261_2_lr

I though you might like to attach this colour view of the Marshall’s Guy/Windover coach to the existing article. Compared with the Blackpool shot, it has acquired a rather less stylish pair of wing mirrors and lost its chieftain, but is otherwise unchanged.
The picture was taken on 25/8/68 by which time the vehicle was in the ownership of Kirby’s, the well known dealer at Anston (?or Dinnington) near Sheffield. I wonder whether it found a new owner, or was simply at a staging post on its way to Barnsley or similar.

Alan Murray-Rust

24/11/12 – 12:47

Rather a nice colour picture of it. It still appears to be sporting the Marshall fleetname on the side panel as seen in the B&W shot.

Eric Bawden

28/01/13 – 07:12

I well remember this vehicle whilst I was at school in the 60s as it regularly passed the bottom of our street. It normally seemed to live outside the owners home in Kensington Street Bradford, though as Marshalls owned 2 coaches, the other one must have lived elsewhere. Marshall’s acquired 3 vehicles when Ripponden & District stopped running coaches in 1957, these being a one and a half decker Commer with an SME registration, the AEC Regal IV with Whitson body which did not go to Hebble who took over R & Ds other vehicles and PEH 261. It may be that Marshalls were agents for R & D in Bradford as they had an office in Swaine Street, and that the vehicles were bought to continue in business, as these were the first vehicles owned as far as I am aware. The vehicles retained R & D colours though I seem to remember PEH at on time being all over cream with blue flash. The fleet name on the side is not actually the company’s name but a leaping tiger which was used on the side of R & Ds coaches and presumably was never painted over. Although not quite the same, it was similar to the tiger leaping through the hoop on Ellen Smiths coaches.

David Hudson

28/01/13 – 13:34

It’s pleasing to note that the original purchaser of this coach, Scraggs, is still very much in business, operating local bus services in the Stoke area.

Chris Barker

29/01/13 – 06:37

A blast from the past ! This thread started before I became aware of the OBP website and I missed this one. I well remember this vehicle and Marshalls who did quite a lot of work in my local area of Bradford. I was on the Bradford Grammar School trip mentioned by David Bate who I remember from School.
I also remember being on a male only party up into the Dales which used this vehicle. There certainly were the traditional crates of ale aboard – the only problem as I recall being that the coach had been booked the following day for a Mother’s Union outing from my local Church. Enough said.

Gordon Green

09/11/13 – 17:52

I’m only a year late in spotting Alan’s 24.11.12 post and mention of Kirkby’s (with two Ks). Kirkby’s were a coach dealership at North Anston on the north side of the A57 between Sheffield and Worksop – which is just south of Dinnington. They were also an operator in their own right with O licences for two operations – Kirkby’s of Harthill (near Anston) – with a rich blue livery (similar to Sammie’s) – and J O Andrew of Sheffield – with an attractive two tone green livery. History has made all of these strands into important players.
i) Kirkby’s was the first of several new owners (after the family) of Plaxtons. In yet another case of reverse take-over, they took on the more famous name (Plaxton) and the current Anston Plaxton site is indeed the original Kirkby site. [Remember that East Lancs/Darwen bought Optare in recent years but “reversed” to become known as Optare. Same sort of thing.] Kirkby’s, at the time, were also a major Vauhall/Bedford dealership in the Rotherham and Worksop areas.
ii) Kirkby’s decided to pull out of operating and the Andrew’s operation in Sheffield became a PSV driving school. On deregulation in the ’80s, Andrew’s came back into operating – but having been a classy coach operator they became one of the Sheffield pirate bus operators. They became the core of what became one of the biggest and most successful independents in competition with SYPTE and in their final incarnation were known as Yorkshire Terrier. This operation was in the latter days part of the Carter/Yorkshire Traction empire and, of course, in 2005 became part of the Stagecoach Bus UK. Stagecoach is now a major player in the City of Sheffield. iii) Kirkby’s became Plaxton, now owned by Alexander-Dennis who have Brian Souter as a major share-holder. Andrew’s became Yorkshire Terrier who eventually became a Stagecoach company. [So now they’re back together in common ownership?]

David Oldfield

10/11/13 – 07:58

Oooo – it’s doin’ me ‘ead in!

Stephen Ford

10/11/13 – 09:38

Sorry, Stephen….. [well I’m not really].

David Oldfield

11/07/14 – 16:26

Just came across this photo, the original owners also ran a fleet of lorries, my Dad drove for them in the early 60’s.
The company went out of business late 60’s and there is no connection with Scraggs of Bucknall, Stoke on Trent as reported on here!

Mr Anon

Red & White – Guy Arab III – HWO 342 – L1749

Photograph by A Charles

Red & White Services 
1949
Guy Arab III
Duple L27/26RD

Sometime ago a comment was sent in by David Wilder for the Eastern Scottish AEC Regent posting regarding Red & White having had very pleasing Duple body Guy Arab IIIs. Above is a great shot contributed by Andrew Charles who took this shot in 2005 of a very well preserved Red & White Arab III lowbridge Duple. Andrew also forwarded the following copy to go with the shot:
“This shot was taken in the grounds of what was then Stroud College during the running day organised by the Stroud RE Group. This site is now under houses but the event goes from strength to strength at the site of the new college. The significance of the bus being at Stroud was of course that in pre Bristol Omnibus days Stroud was a Red & White outpost, we tend to think of them as a Welsh / Forest of Dean operator but they did once go further afield.”
The Red & White Guy is not quite as elaborately decorated as the Eastern Scottish Regent as it only has the one decoration band above the lower saloon windows although there as been a United Services posting with decoration above and below the lower saloon windows. I suppose the purchaser had the choice of where and if it was decorated, I have included below the two shots mentioned the Eastern Scottish on the Left and the United Services on the right


Photograph by P Haywood

This posting is of course open to comments and any other shots of decorative Duple double deckers.

Main photograph & part copy contributed by Andrew Charles

Another Red & White subsidiary, Cheltenham & District, took delivery of five virtually identical vehicles to the above in 1950/51, running them until 1966. There was discussion with the Eastern Scottish Regent as to whether there were only lowbridge versions of this handsome bodywork, The book ‘Cheltenham’s Buses 1939-1980’ shows them to be H31/26R, and from a close look at the photos, I believe that they were highbridge examples. They, too, had the thick aluminium strip, although they did not have a safety bar across the front upstairs windows inside. Fleet numbers were 74-78 (JDG786-790).

Chris Hebbron

15/03/11 – 06:24

Of course, Red & White also supplied some new Duple-bodied Guy Arab Mk111’s to its subsidiary fleets, including 4 to Venture of Basingstoke (HOT 391-4) with highbridge bodies and 2 lowbirdge examples to Newbury & District Motor Services (FMO 515/6), along with a highbridge example (FMO 517). The latter was originally intended for Venture, and after a short time the Basingstoke examples were transferred to the N&D fleet in the interests of standardisation. All then remained in service at Newbury until withdrawal in 1968. You can read the full story in my new book The Newbury & District Motor Services Story.

Paul Lacey

15/05/11 – 17:59

One day I was driving towards Bolton through the Lancashire town of Leigh. I am sure I saw a Guy Arab in Red and White very faded colours parked in a mill. I assume it had been or was being used as a staff bus for the mill workers. This must have been around the mid 1980’s. Has anyone any information on the fate of the vehicle.

R D Hughes

29/08/11 – 08:07

These where ordered by Red & White; but arrived shortly after a depot swop with Bristol Omnibus; Stroud and Cheltenham went to B.O.C. while R & W had services in the Forest of Dean/Wye Valley/Hereford from B.O.C. They had high bodies no rear doors, and spent most of their days on the St. Marks routes, in Cheltenham. Lovely buses even to the end of their days, The Red & White ones were low bodies with doors and ran in the Forest/Monmouth area. The sad point being Cheltenham District did not fit in with B.O.C. as well as it did with Red & White. Red & White retained its Coach operation, at Montpellier Spa Depot, for a number of years, before basing its Cheltenham Coaches at the Black & White Coach Station for a number of years, until the birth of National Express.

Mike 9

Tynemouth and District – Guy Arab III – FT 6572 – 172


Photograph by “unknown”if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Tynemouth and District
1949
Guy Arab III
Pickering H56R

Here’s another odd ball for you, it’s a Guy Arab from Northern General’s Tynemouth and Wakefields subsidiary. I would guess from the registration it’s from about the late 40’s. I don’t know how many were in the batch or who built the bodies, but they’re unlike any other of Northern’s Guy’s that I know of. Northern were huge fans of the Gardner 5LW, and the vast majority of their Guy’s were fitted with them, but for reasons unknown to myself these vehicles came with a Meadows engine, were they perhaps re bodies? The engines were later changed and many had the 5LW fitted as replacements, but at least one of them ended up with an AEC unit, this ones also got the Indian Chief radiator cap, I wonder if that survived? I can remember them, but by the time I started at Percy Main they were long gone.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

23/05/12 – 09:32

It looks very like a locally built Northern Coachbuilders body. Sheffield used them as an alternative to Weymann. Sheffield’s last were delivered in 1950, I think NCB closed shortly afterwards.

Ian Wild

23/05/12 – 09:33

This appears to be a Northern Caochbuilders bodied Guy Arab III Tynemouth had some similar chassis with Weymann bodywork Northern General also bought NCB bodied Guys but these had a short life with NGT.

Chris Hough

23/05/12 – 09:35

The bodies on these Meadows 6DC630 engined Arab IIIs, of which there were ten delivered in 1949, were by Pickering, and reputedly had metal frames. This picture, and some accompanying information, may also be found on this site:- //www.flickr.com/  From this, it appears that all the Meadows engined Arabs, apart from No. 169, which received a 5LW, were re-engined with AEC 7.7s. The Meadows unit was very compact – like contemporary Dennis and Daimler designs, the timing gears were located at the rear of the engine – and the Meadows engined Arab had a short bonnet that could not accommodate the 6LW. Most operators that purchased Meadows engines replaced them with alternative power plants at the first C of F renewal or earlier. Though powerful, this motor had reliability problems – it was rumoured that the troublesome crankshafts were sourced from eastern Europe – and, by the standards of the time, it was deemed to be fuel thirsty, though it would probably compare favourably with the dipsomaniac beasts of the present day.

Roger Cox

23/05/12 – 09:36

I’m only guessing but, going by the style of the upper deck front windows I’d say they were Northern Coach Builders bodies. It ties in with the operating area, anyway.

Eric Bawden

23/05/12 – 09:37

Coach builder was Northern Coach Builders of locally Newcastle.Yorkshire Woollen had some identical buses.The photograph must have been taken on a hot day judging the way the driver has had to open the windscreen. If only you could do that on say a Wright bodied Volvo.

Philip Carlton

23/05/12 – 09:38

What a wonderful posting! and a perfect compliment to last year’s debate about Pickering utility bodies, because that’s who built these. There were ten of them, FT 6565-74 and they were delivered in 1949. I believe these were Pickering’s only post war double deckers. It has a strong hint of Northern Coachbuilders about it and as NCB probably had a full order book at the time, perhaps Pickering were able to offer a quicker delivery and of course, they had done a lot of work for Northern General previously. I think the result was a very fine looking vehicle!

Chris Barker

Ronnie – the body on this Guy Arab Mark Three is by Northern Coachbuilders. Northern Coachbuilders were based in Newcastle and bodied both buses and trolleybuses for Newcastle Corporation amongst others and ceased trading around 1951.
Northern General also had some Arab Threes with Northern Coachbuilders bodies. One such bus was 1236 BCN 136, which had the typical Guy Arab ‘snout’. The Meadows engine, whilst having a cubic capacity 10.32 litres was fairly compact and didn’t need the extended bonnet required by the physically larger Gardner 6LW. However, the Meadows engine proved unreliable and most were replaced by engines of other makes – usually a Gardner but also AEC and in the case of Midland Red their own K type.

Michael Elliott

23/05/12 – 09:40

According to my 1962 British Bus Fleets book, this bus is a 1949 Guy Arab III with a Pickering body.

Stephen Bloomfield

Thanks everyone I have replaced all but one of the ?s any offers on the seating capacity.

Peter

23/05/12 – 10:29

According to BBF 10 the vehicle seating capacity was 56.

Stephen Bloomfield

23/05/12 – 16:48

A correction to my earlier claim, there were apparently thirteen of these bodies, the ten Guy’s and three on re-conditioned AEC Regents of 1937, also for Tynemouth, FT 4220-4222. I wonder if they were ever photographed?

Chris Barker

23/05/12 – 16:49

The information on the flickr link that Roger provided says that these Pickering bodies were designed to resemble NCB bodies. Notice the difference in height between the front upper deck windows and the side windows, and compare that with a real NCB body here //www.flickr.com

Peter Williamson

24/05/12 – 08:16

Chris, three of the Regents you mention – FT 4220/2 were sold to Provincial in 1957 to replace some of the vehicles they lost in a garage fire, you can find pictures of some of them on the Provincial Bus Enthusiasts Website, there is also a picture of one of them with its pre war front entrance Weymann body

Ronnie Hoye

24/05/12 – 08:17

I don’t think there’s a difference in depth, just a deep valance moulding over the windows. BH & D used to do the same, presumably because they both ran in sunny areas! It certainly makes a difference to the appearance.

David Beilby

25/05/12 – 07:38

Is it possible that Pickering used NCB frames for these bodies?

Eric Bawden

26/05/12 – 06:54

Apparently not, Eric. According to the info on the Flickr posting they were all-metal, whereas NCB only built composite bodies.

Peter Williamson

26/05/12 – 20:15

Is it not possible that these bodies were built on Park Royal frames? The profiles are very similar to the standard Park Royal body, also built by Guy themselves, on Arab IIIs.

Roger Cox

02/01/13 – 07:45

As a Geordie can I please clarify this is a Pickering body, not NCB. NCB bodies did not have the slight curve (taper?) to the front upper deck windows.
I used to see these when I was a young lad.

Peter Stobart

02/01/13 – 14:21

Talking about Guys with Meadow engines, LTE’s G436 was a speculative venture in 1949 by Guy, anxious to keep bus production going after the war, with London orders if possible. It employed an updated Guy Arab III chassis, with a Meadows 10.35 litre engine, fluid flywheel and pre-selector gearbox. It had a Guy body (5-bay) built on Park Royal frames that looked loosely like an RT forever allocated to a one-bus backwater route, the usual destiny for LTE’s non-standard buses, it was withdrawn in 1955, then went to Jugoslavia.
See here: www.modelbuszone.co.uk/

Chris Hebbron

03/01/13 – 06:24

It is rumoured that G436 was either “gifted” or sold at a very reduced price to the Tram and Trolleybus Department of LTE as a tempter for future orders for tram replacement buses. The chassis was modified from the standard Arab III to allow the fitment of RT class bodywork, though G436 itself had the usual provincial style Park Royal body. A second chassis, designed to accept all the standard Park Royal and Weymann RT8 bodies of the RT class, was offered by Guy, but never delivered. G436 had a full air operated braking system, together with a fluid flywheel and an air operated four speed preselector gearbox. As far as is now known, the 10.35 litre Meadows 6DC630 engine was fully rated at 130 bhp, which would have made the bus decidedly more sprightly than the RT/RTL/RTW family which had engines de-rated to 115 bhp. Quite apart from the uphill struggle against London Transport’s infatuation with standardisation, the dubious reliability of the Meadows unit would have handicapped Guy’s attempt to get a postwar foothold in the London market. Perhaps the GS order was some kind of consolation prize. G436 spent its final two years or so with LTE on the short 121 route between Ponders End and Chingford. A certain 13 year old Guy fan made a special pilgrimage from Croydon to Chingford in the summer of 1955 to see this bus and sample it as a passenger. After waiting patiently at length for its arrival, and observing only RTs on the service, an enquiry put to one of the RT drivers elicited the information that G436 had been withdrawn from service at the end of February!

Roger Cox

19/05/16 – 06:18

Much has been written about the origins of these Pickering double deck bodies for Tynemouth, but this much I know.
I bought a secondhand Britbus model of G436 the London Transport Meadows engined Park Royal bodied Guy. Firstly after dismantling it, I filed away the rain strip over the top of the front upper deck windows. Secondly I replaced the half drop windows with sliders. It is often difficult to remember what the rear of a bus looked like without the aid of photographs. But, based on memory I deepened the rear emergency windows on the top deck at the rear of the bus and placed a vertical dividing strip down the rear staircase/ platform window. Finally I repainted it in Tynemouth livery, added appropriate transfers and Hey Presto, what did I end up with a Pickering bodied Guy.
So I submit that these bodies had Park Royal frames and were panneled and completed by Pickering.

Anon

13/04/18 – 05:47

I agree that this appears to have been built on Park Royal frames, the shortened bays on the trailing edge of the rear axles the clue. Thereafter its all cosmetic work, but the fact these were built on sturdier ground than Pickering’s wartime contributions suggests imported metal frames. NCB were all timber framed bodies and likewise of dubious quality apart from the final sanctions which were of ECW outline.

Keith

19/04/18 – 06:47

I can remember these vehicles operating on this service, although they were soon replaced by more modern vehicles. Indeed it seemed to me that this route (Whitley-Wallsend-Gateshead) often received new vehicles to operate it, displacing earlier vehicles to other routes. It was also noticeable that routes were allocated specific batches of vehicles to operate them. Living in Whitley Bay, other routes that I was familiar with were the 5 (Newcastle-Whitley Bay Cemetery) operated by the ECW rebodied TD5s, 7 (North Shields Ferry-Blyth) operated by NCB bodied AEC Regents, and 8 and 12 (North Shields Ferry-Whitley Bay Bandstand) operated by Weymann bodied AEC Regents.
One other point, the vehicle in the photo is carrying the route number 4, but at some time, it was renumbered 1. I have a timetable from 1956 when it was still numbered 4, but in the timetable for 1961, it has become the 1. Does anyone know when it was renumbered? The present day 1 is a descendant of this route, although in order to serve various housing estates, it follows a much more tortuous route than was the case back then. It was also numbered 301 for a lengthy period.

John Gibson

20/04/18 – 06:45

The renumbering of this route from 4 to 1 took place when the route was extended at the Gateshead end to Lobley Hill, and I think this happened in 1956. I remember that my aunt moved to Cullercoats, and the first time we went there it was service 4 but the next time it was service 1: I think that she moved house in 1956.
The renumbering was necessary because the route became a joint operation with Northern when it was extended to Lobley Hill, and Northern already had a route 4. Tynemouth route 1 (Clousden Hill – Wallsend – Willington Square) became route 4.

Paul Robson

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/12/20 – 06:23

FT 6573

A rare photograph of Tynemouth Guy Arab III FT 6573 No 173 in the Fleet with Pickering H56R body leaving The Haymarket, Newcastle for the coast. Its blind has not been reset for the return journey. The date is probably mid 50s when shot and mid morning judging by the long shadow cast on the MCCW, BUT 9641T No.481 corporation trolley being overtaken and about to leave the stop on its journey to Polwarth Drive, Gosforth.

Ray Jackson

04/12/20 – 12:37

The bus would have turned right coming out of the old Haymarket Bus Station, then left round the back of the South African War Memorial onto Northumberland Street.
It’s now a few yards further on, and on Barras Bridge heading towards The Great North Road. It will stay in the outside lane, as just a few hundred yards further on, it will turn right into Jesmond Road, heading towards Jesmond, then the Coast Road.
This was the short lived revised, cream top livery, which was only around for a couple of years, so not every vehicle in the fleet had it. In 1958, the red top version was introduce, and the MCW Orion bodied Leyland PD3/4’s were the first to receive it.

Ronnie Hoye

Provincial – Guy Arab III – HWO 344 – T1


Copyright Pete Davies

Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co)
1949
Guy Arab III
Duple L27/26RD

HWO 344 was a 1949 Guy Arab III with Duple L53RD body, in the fleet of Provincial, Gosport & Fareham. She’s been relegated to duty as a training vehicle and is seen outside the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton on the same dull lunchtime as my view of the Southern Vectis Bristol Lodekka KDL 414 in March 1974, which was published a few weeks ago. She is an exile from Red & White (L1949 in their fleet) and is of course a sister vehicle to L1749 which features in the excellent “Gallery” by Ken Morgan titled Red and White Guy L1749.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/11/12 – 07:41


Copyright Diesel Dave

I was pleasantly surprised to see the photo of the Provincial Duple bodied Guy Arab III trainer T1 as I had recently been looking through some of my old photos which included a photo of the same bus taken in the early 70’s at the Provincial Hoeford garage.

Diesel Dave

29/11/12 – 10:08

Nice view, Dave! Brighter than mine, of course, since it was taken in sunshine. It’s always seemed a pity to me that there is no fleet name on the side of the vehicle.

Pete Davies

29/11/12 – 11:09

It did have its own identity, though; the minute T1 amidst the signs! I wonder how many trainers they had.

Chris Hebbron

29/11/12 – 16:12

Chris, so far as I am aware, there’s only ever been one trainer in use at a time. The last I recall seeing was a Bristol FLF (EMR 295D) ex Wilts & Dorset, and it didn’t seem to have a T prefix to the fleet number. It did, however, have the Provincial fleet name in NBC style.

Pete Davies

Tynemouth and District – Guy Arab III – FT 7388 – 188


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Tynemouth and District
1952
Guy Arab III
Weymann H30/26R

On the last leg of its journey from Whitley Bay St Mary’s Island to Newcastle Haymarket, this 1952 H30/26R Weymann bodied Guy Arab III was one of ten in the NGT Tynemouth and District fleet; FT 7381/90 181/90. When new the livery would have been the same as the two Regent’s and the Pickering Arab featured elsewhere on this site. The interiors of these sturdy well built bodies were finished to a very high standard, they were double skinned throughout, the lights had glass covers with chrome bezels and the area around the window’s was finished off with polished wood surrounds. As with all of T&D vehicles of the period, the seat cushions and backrests were upholstered in a rather attractive dark red moquette, the backs and cushion edges were trimmed in leather. Percy Main’s first 8ft wide buses, they were also the first with sliding cab doors, but they were a heavy beast and lacked many of the creature comforts we now take for granted. No heaters or power steering, they had a crash box and the brakes could best be described as adequate. They were fitted with the almost indestructible Gardner 5LW and breakdowns were extremely rare, but they were anything but fast, and these days they would be underpowered and would struggle to keep pace with traffic, but they could scale the North Face of The Eiger ‘metaphorically speaking’. I was 6 in 1952, so in my youth I must have clocked up quite a few passenger miles on these, but they were withdrawn in 1966 so I never drove one on service. However, one vehicle in particular was to play a significant part in my life; at the tender age of 21, in January 1967 I started my driver training at Percy Main and passed my test two weeks later, the training vehicle was 189 and the instructor was a chap called Jackie Gallon. He taught me how to start off using the clutch, then go through the box from 1 to 4 and back to 1 just by listening to the engine ‘no rev counters in those days’ the object of the exercise was to keep the engine in tune with the gearbox, and done properly the gears would just fall into place as smooth as silk, but get it wrong and everyone within a radius of 100yd’s would hear about it. Once you’ve mastered the technique you can get a quick change down on a hill that would rival any other gearbox I’ve ever encountered. The early Orion bodied Arabs that followed these were stripped to the bone to achieve lightness, but they were an unpleasant vehicle to be on as you were subjected to a constant barrage of knocks bangs rattles and squeaks, and the interiors looked cheap and chatty in comparison. I know of some similar Weymann bodies have survived, but I’m not aware of any on a Guy chassis.
As a footnote, If you look behind the bus, going in the opposite direction is what looks like the rear of a MK 3 Zodiac, so the photo cant be earlier than 1962, but by the layout and style of the Shop At Binns logo, I would say it was about 1964.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

24/03/13 – 15:09

Another gem from Ronnie! I note his comments about learning to drive a bus. Crash box? My first experience of driving a bus was on one of the Hampshire Bus (ex Wilts & Dorset) FLF trainers. That had a crash box. Going up was easy but, for coming down, I was told to make sure the speedo was showing precisely 20 for 4 to 3, and precisely 12 for 3 to 2. 1 was used only for hill starts. A chap at what was then Southampton Citybus was telling me one day that his instructor had said double declutching is for amateurs – if you listen to the engine, you can go straight through. This ties in very nicely with Ronnie’s comment about being in tune, and it ties in with what others on this site have said about the rear engine!

Pete Davies

24/03/13 – 15:10

Looking at the main photo and reading the text I was convinced the photo was indicative of Tyneside as I knew it when visiting in 1958/9. Then I saw Ronnie’s blow up inset and his comment about the Zodiac which is quite correct.

 
Apart from the Commer C series Mk2 (I can hear “the Knocker” as I type!) in front of what is presumably a PD2 (whose?) there is, at the extreme left, the front wing of a Sunbeam Rapier distinguishable from its Rootes Group contemporaries by its wheel embellisher.
A very atmospheric photo of a time now almost half a century ago.

Phil Blinkhorn

24/03/13 – 16:47

Phil, the PD2 is one of Gateshead’s, they had the Newcastle Corporation destination layout rather than the standard NGT. The livery was a dark chocolate with cream centre band and also under the lower saloon windows, it was outlined in black and they had black wings. they looked superb, but it tended to fade rather quickly, and that made them look a bit drab.

Ronnie Hoye

24/03/13 – 16:48

With regards this posting by Ronnie of a Tynemouth Guy FT 7388, in which he mentions later, lightweight Orion bodies, not sure whether any had survived on Guy chassis.

CU 7650

Well, here is one that did, if only for a little while, seen here on some works contract when I stumbled across it in the Bromford Bridge area of Birmingham, one afternoon in the late sixties when I was working in that city. I recall it had the remains of “Northern” fleet names rather than Tynemouth, but it is the only shot I have of an Orion body on an exposed-radiator Guy chassis. I had always thought it was perhaps a rebodied older bus, a Utility even, perhaps not.

Rob Hancock

24/03/13 – 17:13

A superb photograph and wonderful commentary. To pick-up Phil’s point about the PD2 I would hazard a guess that the destination layout is that of Gateshead and District, but I am open to correction here.

Kevin Hey

Another 2

This is all there is I”m afraid

24/03/13 – 17:40

Thanks Ronnie and Kevin for reminding me of Gateshead and District, especially of the livery, of which I’d all but forgotten. The number of operators in the Newcastle area with interestingly different liveries always made a visit worthwhile.
I also note in the latest inset shot confirming my Sunbeam Rapier identification, the rear of a 1956 Vauxhall Cresta, though the owner saved money by not opting for the contrasting second colour flash!

Phil Blinkhorn

25/03/13 – 07:53

Yes, thanks Ronnie for confirming the destination layout on the PD2. It had never crossed my mind that Gateshead and District motorbuses had Newcastle Corporation-style destination indicator layout, well at least until the 30ft Titans and Atlanteans were taken into stock. The Newcastle destination layout was in fact the same as Huddersfield Corporation. This was introduced at Newcastle when Harry Godsmark became General Manager having previously been at Huddersfield. In the municipal sector there are quite a few examples of general managers introducing revised destination layouts to their new fleet based on the arrangements at their previous undertaking. The move by John C. Wake from St. Helens to Bradford is one example of this, although strangely he did not take the arrangement with him when he moved to Nottingham.
As Phil says the Tyneside area was always worth visiting on account of the various operators.

Kevin Hey

25/03/13 – 07:53

Phil, the Rapier is also a convertible. Quite rare, especially in northern climes!
Perhaps a little more commonly seen amongst Southdown Arab III’s, for example.

Eric Bawden

25/03/13 – 10:30

Absolutely Eric!

Phil Blinkhorn

25/03/13 – 15:03

Ronnie Is this photograph taken on the Gt North Road at Barras Bridge? The dotted white line on the roadway curving to the lower left of the photograph is intriguing. Was this a guide line for drivers of Corporation trolleybuses, I wonder?
Phil/Eric If I only had my old copies of Observer’s Book of Automobiles! These books were superb for identifying cars and the variants!

Kevin Hey

25/03/13 – 15:58

Could be a clip from the 1961 film Payroll starring Michael Craig and Billie Whitelaw.

Roger Broughton

26/03/13 – 06:50

Yes, Kevin, the photographer would be standing with His/Her back to the South African War Memorial, if the bus had kept to the left it would have gone down Northumberland Street, which at that time was still the A1.

CCN 138

Phil, I knew I had a photo of one somewhere, it would have been taken from about the same place as the one of the Guy, but facing to the right. I think Gateshead had around 33 of these splendid all Leyland PD2’s, they were a mixture of both 8ft and 7ft 6″, the later were for services over the High Level Bridge which at that time had width restriction, the Trolleybus is one of 70 similar to the London Q’s, this is one of the first batch of 20, the remainder had the same destination layout as the Leyland

Ronnie Hoye

26/03/13 – 06:51

Yes Kevin, I also had a couple of editions of the Observers books and whilst they did come in handy they also listed many Russian and other Eastern Bloc cars that you would never see on British roads, as well as many US and Australian cars that were unlikely to grace our highways. Happy days though!

Eric Bawden

26/03/13 – 06:51

Yes this is Barras Bridge between the university and the bus station.I worked at the then new Civic Centre, just opposite, in 1970-73 just as the area was trashed by the central motorway.So I was familiar with this scene and there were still a few interesting buses about, though sadly the trolleybuses were long gone.

David Rhodes

26/03/13 – 06:52

As a Weymann fan, especially this classic design, how many of you (like me) noticed that this is a 27′ long bus with longer rear upstairs windows. I think it makes a good design even better (balance and integrity). Morecambe had at least one Regent III like this (which I believe is preserved), Devon General had a number (one of which is reserved ?). How many more were there at 27′ – I don’t count the Bury examples because they were a transition to the Aurora and had a mix of designs?

David Oldfield

26/03/13 – 08:13

Thanks for the PD2 photo Ronnie. Re the trolleybus, I well remember these because, apart from visits with my Father when he was working, he had cousins in Walker and Denton. My earliest memory of those is of staying in an hotel in, I think, Denton with the trolleybuses parked in front.
Presumably this was the Denton terminus. As this was 1953 and I was around 6 at the time, the memory is hazy.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/03/13 – 10:53

Hard to imagine a better-looking bus than this very welcome posting of Ronnie’s. The dead-vertical, straight-sided radiator means business and the Weymann body looks as if had been sculpted from a block, rather than put together piece by piece. Before David O’s comment I hadn’t noticed that it was 27′ long. I don’t know how long these buses were in service, but with Guy-Gardner-Weymann quality they must have had a potential lifespan of 40-odd years. It’s a pity that changing needs and fashions cause such wastage.
Ronnie Hoye and Pete Davies’s mention of clutchless changes remind me of a day in 1968 when this trickery came in very handy. I was doing a short, quiet but hilly Thames Valley working northward from Reading to the Unicorn Inn at Kingwood Common, when at the bottom of Prospect Street, Caversham, the clutch pedal went to the floor. Luckily the Lodekka had a very nicely-mannered AVW engine with an extremely precise pump and no backlash in the transmission, so I reckoned that with the conductor’s permission we could soldier on, using the starter to get us rolling in first gear after each stop. He agreed and rang through to Lower Thorn Street to warn them that a replacement bus would be needed later.
Coming up to each stop where there was anyone to get on or off I dropped her into first for the last few yards and slowed to about one mph, and to our relief most people hopped on and off in paternoster-lift fashion. For old folk, of course, we came to a proper halt and restarted on the button. Not being able to change up out of first till the top of any real hill was an embarrassment, though on gentle slopes you could get up into second and beyond without risking a jerk.
I can’t remember whether we did the same on the way back, or whether they sent the replacement up to meet us. I’m grateful to a co-operative conductor and a beautifully-engineered vehicle for making possible an antic I wouldn’t dream of risking today!

Ian Thompson

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

29/03/13 – 06:52

I once had a Fiat Uno whose clutch cable snapped. I drove it from my home in Chipping Sodbury to the garage in Bristol in the manner described by Ian – a bit hair-raising at times (with that gearing the starter would not have coped with any sort of gradient) but great fun. There are times when knowledge of crash gearboxes is very useful, even when you aren’t using a crash gearbox!

Peter Williamson

30/03/13 – 10:04

The very early Atlanteans we had at Godfrey Abbott (ex Ribble) were not fitted with an interlock on the gear change, it was perfectly possible, and by no means unusual to accidentally change down from fourth to first!! A sound that was like no other, before or since!!
Some of the early semi’s had a ring of differing colour round the speedo to show when to change gears. This device could also be seen on Leyland/BUT engined DMU’s of similar vintage (could the connection be “Self Changing Gears”? of which W. A. Stanier of duchess fame was a director)
Another excitement was with NCK 352 which used to stick on or about TDC, this bus had a large pair of Stilly’s as standard equipment! open bonnet, apply to nut on end of crankshaft, pull hard, then restart!!

Pete Bradshaw

Darlington Corporation – Guy Arab III – THN 357 – 45

Darlington Corporation - Guy Arab III - THN 357 - 45

County Borough of Darlington Transport Department
1953
Guy Arab III 5LW
Roe B41C

The small operation of Darlington Corporation does not seem to be mentioned on the Website.
I have only been to the town once back in 1968. I took just one photo probably as it was unusual even in those days to see a passenger ready to leave the centre entrance whilst the bus was still in motion. A single deck Guy Arab III was also unusual for me.
I have recently rediscovered this old slide taken with a very basic camera, I hope it may be of interest.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton

13/08/15 – 08:15

I don’t think the Roe West Riding Red AEC’s had doors to their centre entrances, either. This made the rear saloon a chilly place- and as you suggest the elfansafety doesn’t bear thinking about- the step backwards system of alighting from a moving bus platform was impossible and twisting sideways must have been just right to fall against the rear wheels. End of an era, here.

Joe

13/08/15 – 08:51

EMW 903

I attach a bought slide of a Swindon Daimler CV single decker with a similar centre entrance/exit arrangement. How popular was it, exactly? I know some of Blackpool ones in the 1930s, and we all know about their PD2/5 fleet, but single deckers like this seem very rare.

Pete Davies

13/08/15 – 11:53

Not centre-entrance and a decker, but London Transport’s Country Area STL’s posed the same hazards as the other two vehicles. LPTB’s 1936 (ex-STL 1470) offering was lauded by them as ‘draught-free’, a statement, from personal experience, I heartily disagreed with, despite the angled front bulkhead and rear partition to entrance! Note the staircase opposite the entrance. LINK: www.flickr.com/photos/

Chris Hebbron

13/08/15 – 13:55

Joe, I think the West Riding centre-entrance Regents had doors. However, like you, I also remember being cold in their rear saloons so they probably spent most of their time open (to save the conductors’ time).
This photo seems to show the door in a closed position. //www.bus-and-coach-photos.com/picture/number5402.asp  Some photos suggest they were double doors, hinged outwardly opening. If only 111 had survived beyond early preservation.

Paul Haywood

13/08/15 – 14:40

Municipal conservatism at work with these Guys? By 1953 underfloor engined saloons were well established and virtually the norm so these purchases seem a bit of an anachronism. Doncaster and Burnley, Colne and Nelson were other operators that stuck to half-cab single deckers well into the 1950’s with BCN taking PS2 Tigers right up to 1955. More examples of those little things that make our hobby so interesting.

Philip Halstead

14/08/15 – 11:51

Hunter of Seaton Delaval had two TS7 Leyland Tigers, JR 4901, from 1935, and JR 6600, 1936: both Burlingham B35F. In 1953 and 54 respectively, they were rebodied by Roe as B39C, they were very similar to this Darlington example, but differed slightly in that they had doors which were flush with the side of the bus when shut, but I cant for the life of me remember if they were two single doors, or a two piece folding type. The only thing that let them down, was that they had been rebodied as 8ft on a 7’6″ chassis, which tended to make them look a bit unbalanced.

Ronnie Hoye

16/08/15 – 06:35

Must have been a job keeping them clean,,,,

Mike

16/08/15 – 06:36

The last conventional half-cab saloons (both complete buses and new bodies for old chassis) date from 1955, after which only a few specialised vehicles were built on chassis normally bodied as double-deckers – a Leyland PD2 for West Mon, eight Regent Vs for South Wales Transport and two more as non-PSVs registered in Leeds.

Geoff Kerr

01/09/15 – 07:43

FET 821

Rotherham Corporation ran a large fleet of Bristol L5G and L6B buses mostly with central entrance. FET 821 f/n 121 was one of the last delivered in 1951 with an East Lancs body and makes an interesting contrast to the standard ECW bodies which never -to my knowledge – offered this option. It was photographed in 1970 in Carlisle clearly on a school outing but from where and who was the operator- perhaps owned by the school itself?

Keith Newton

02/09/15 – 07:02

Keith, thanks for John Kaye who gave me this information regarding Rotherham 121 (above).
It was withdrawn by Rotherham in September 1968 it is recorded with Army Cadet Force, Dearne Valley Area, Wath (later Wakefield) in January 1969 and sold for scrap 1970.

Paul Haywood

02/09/15 – 07:03

This bus appeared on the SCT61 site and the discussion following the photographs gives some explanation as to why the bus would have been in Carlisle: //www.sct61.org.uk/rr121

David Beilby

Blackburn Corporation – Guy Arab III – CBV 433 – 133

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Blackburn Corporation - Guy Arab III - CBN 433 - 133

Blackburn Corporation
1949
Guy Arab III 6LW
Crossley H30/26R

On the 12th September 2015, a heritage weekend in Blackburn featured four classic buses operating free tours of the town two of them are seen here. Blackburn Corporation 133 (CBV 433) is a 1948 Guy Arab III with Crossley H30/26R body, generally to the Manchester Corporation Style but with unusual opening windows. The livery is enhanced by the lining out. Seen behind is Burnley, Colne and Nelson JTC 41 (CHG 541) a Leyland “Tiger” PS2/14 built as late as 1954. The East Lancs body was originally rear entrance but was rebuilt in 1958 with a forward entrance to permit one-man-operation. Both of these buses are owned by Paul and Rachel Fielding, although the Tiger is operated as part of the Cumbria Classic Coaches fleet.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

13/11/15 – 06:33

Burnley, Colne & Nelson had the last conventional half-cab saloons built for the UK home market (47 – 49, DHG 47 – 49) in 1955, after which only a few special vehicles were built – a Leyland PD2 for West Mon and eight AEC Regent Vs for South Wales Transport. There were also two Regents built as non-PSVs for use in the Leeds area.

Geoff Kerr

13/11/15 – 06:34

The combination of the Manchester style Crossley body and the Guy Arab ‘snout’, needed to accommodate the length of the Gardner 6LW engine seemed very ill at ease on these Blackburn buses. Compared to other 1948/9 offerings such as an all Leyland PD2 or a Weymann bodied AEC Regent III these were very ugly and old fashioned looking vehicles. They must have been mechanically robust though as they had long service lives.

Philip Halstead

13/11/15 – 09:55

CBV 433_2

CBV 433 has had a repaint since I caught her in Fleetwood, during a soggy Tram Sunday in 2001!

Pete Davies

Lancashire United Transport – Guy Arab III – MTJ 84 – 440

Lancashire United - Guy Arab III - MTJ 84 - 440

Lancashire United Transport
1951
Guy Arab III 6LW
Roe C35F

MTJ 84 was originally Lancashire United 440. It is a 1951 Guy Arab III with Roe C35F body. It is owned nowadays by Cumbria Classic Coaches, and is regularly used for private hire work especially weddings. It is seen here at Bowber Head, near Kirkby Stephen, just outside the Cumbria Classic Coaches Depot.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

23/11/15 – 06:37

Another example of a somewhat anachronistic purchase by a major operator. By 1951 the underfloor engined single decker was becoming well established especially for coaches where being up to date with ‘fashion’ was more important than for buses. No doubt these were robust and reliable vehicles but very soon after purchase they would be perceived by the travelling public as very old fashioned. They did have long service lives however and spent a lot of their time on the long Tyne-Tees-Mersey service which in pre-motorway days must have been an arduous trek.

Philip Halstead

26/11/15 – 10:41

I can confirm the arduousness of the X97 in pre motorway days. We were regular travellers in the early sixties from Newcastle to Lymm Church, usually in summer. The usual trip was the 8.30 am departure from Newcastle Haymarket which from memory got to Lymm around teatime. We started queuing about an hour before the scheduled departure time in order to get on the first coach. This was usually a Northern Willowbrook bodied Tiger Cub or Reliance, or one of North Western’s black tops Reliances. They looked impressive but were basically 43 seat buses with detachable headrests on the seats.
The only bit of dual carriageway in the early days was on the A1 south of Catterick. Being a bus nut, I grabbed the front seat armed with my British Bus Fleets volumes much to the amusement of the crews.
One early lessons we learnt was never do the northbound journey on a summer Saturday. We did it once on a miserable wet day. LUT Guy Arab bus to Manchester, then on to a hired Yeates bodied Bedford to Leeds, then another change to get home.
Happy days.

Richard Slater

27/11/15 – 06:24

The livery shown here is very bus-like, the original livery with “brightwork” was much more coach like. LUT bucked the trend with its coach purchases. The first underfloor engined coaches were very sturdy looking centre entrance Roe bodied Guys which arrived in the black & red livery with brightwork (which was soon changed). The next deliveries included Weymann DP Guys and Roe DPs on Atkinson Alpha chassis. (The Atkinsons technically belonged to South Lancashire Tramways.) Add to these Duple Donnington and NCME bodied Tiger Cubs, Burlingham & Plaxton Derwent AEC Reliances, so waiting for an LUT coach in the 60s was most interesting!

Andrew Gosling

27/11/15 – 06:24

Richard, I can’t comment on the Northern Willowbrook bodied vehicles’ seats but the North Western bodied Reliances’ headrests were part of the moulded seat frame and were not detachable.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/11/15 – 06:06

Phil, I recall the high backed moulded seats, and I’m sure they had detachable headrests added. From memory they were white, but we’re talking 50 years ago and my memory could well be defective.

Richard Slater

28/11/15 – 06:06

I wish I’d paid more attention in their day to a number of underfloor single-deckers that are now rarities. Sentinels, Atkinson Alphas, Dennis UFs and Seddons and others come to mind, but at the time I found them a bit unappealing in comparison with halfcabs like this magnificent Roe-bodied Guy and the equally superb Leyland PS1 in the next posting. Underfloors obviously met an operational need, making OPO possible and fitting in an extra 4 seats, but they kept the fitters busy.

Ian Thompson

28/11/15 – 08:27

Not wishing to throw a spanner in the works, a study of the “black top AECs” photos in “North Western” volume 2 by Eric Ogden makes interesting viewing.
Page 54, 720-39, Reliance/Weymann, slightly higher backed seats, no head restraint.
Page 56, 746-60, Reliance/Willowbrook, slightly better moulded seats, no head restraint.
Page 59, 797-811, Reliance/Willowbrook, 804 clearly has white head restraints 797 head restraints, not good photo, but maybe not white or just dirty.
Page 63, 852-871, Reliance/Willowbrook, 864 moulded seats, no head restraints 862 white detachable head restraints retro fitted.
This should clarify the issue!

Andrew Gosling

29/11/15 – 05:53

Thanks Andrew, I have that book and maybe I should have dug it out.

Richard Slater

30/11/15 – 06:44

Richard’s recollection of the timings for his travels on the Newcastle-upon-Tyne to Lymm ‘Tyne-Tees-Mersey’ service are quite right.
The Summer 1951 timetable shows an 0830 departure from Haymarket and the arrival in Lymm would be 1616. The Winter 1969/1970 timetable shows the departure at 0840 arriving 1618.
Both these timetables, plus others from 1932 and 1972 including the vehicle/crew diagram for 1972, may be viewed on my Ipernity album covering the ‘Tyne-Tees-Mersey’ subject. www.ipernity.com/doc/davidslater

David Slater

03/12/15 – 10:38

David, thanks for confirming that my memory isn’t that faulty, it’s reassuring. I last used the X97 around 1968 and I can’t recall ever using the M62. My last trip from Lymm was in a Northern F registered Leopard with, I think, a Willowbrook bus body. It had very comfortable coach seating so a smooth journey was ensured. We used the night service once. This ran via Irlam and Eccles. It was a Yorkshire Woollen car, a DP Reliance, which got into Newcastle ridiculously early because it ran non stop from Leeds. This was quite a common event when the service car was filled with passengers for Newcastle.

Richard Slater