Maidstone & District 1967 Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R Willowbrook B45F
This photo of Maidstone & District Leyland Panther No S99 reg JKK 199E with Willowbrook B45F bodywork was new in April 1967 prior to the renumbering to 3099 so was probably taken in the summer of that year outside Southdown’s Pevensey Road bus station. M&D had I believe ninety five Panthers the first sixty had Willowbrook B45F bodies (S26-S40 and S61-S110) and the remainder had Strachans bodies of either B45D (3111-3120) or B48F (3121-3140) layout. The 190 route was part of the joint Southdown/M&D Heathfield cycle a complicated but effective group of six interworked services, a thorough explanation of this working can be found in the Southdown Enthusiasts Club book called “Working Together”.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
12/07/17 – 07:27
Hants & Dorset/Wilts & Dorset had some of these wished upon them during the reshuffling of fleets under the early years of NBC, DKE.C and JKK.E batches. JKK 203E even managed to gain Tilling red! I have a bought view of her thus at Basingstoke.
Pete Davies
13/07/17 – 07:58
Further to Pete’s comment they were more of a curse than a wish. A nightmare to keep on the road mechanically, hated by most of the crews. Give me an RE or Leopard any day. The ex King Alfred trio on H&D benefited from having the 680 engine but were still not the most reliable buses.
Steve Barnett
14/07/17 – 07:37
Steve, I think it’s probably true to say that, if H&D/W&D had been BET operators, they would have stayed well away, as I belief Southdown did. Incidentally, does anyone know why some fleets suffered this ‘asset stripping’ by having vehicles transferred out? Was it that the recipients were deemed to be short of suitable vehicles?
Pete Davies
14/07/17 – 07:38
Hants & Dorset’s problem (one of them, at least) in the early 1970s was that they had not purchased enough single deck buses in the late 1950s and early ’60s. Such vehicles would have been suitable for OPO, but H&D had purchased mainly Lodekkas plus 6 coaches per year. Result: when costs started rising, and finding staff became more difficult, conversion to OPO was the logical move, but H&D were constricted by the lack of suitable buses. Thus the 33 Panthers were an attempt to resolve this problem, but, as Steve says, they were notoriously unreliable. Hearsay claimed that, of the 33 buses, there were always at least 10 off the road. One could, of course, ask why Maidstone & District could release such a large number of buses, most of which were only around 4 years old, but preferred to retain older, underfloor engined, types with similar capacity. For H&D, the answer must have become obvious quite quickly! It is interesting to speculate what the real problems were – the Panther was not universally hated. Sunderland apparently found them satisfactory, and Brisbane had a large fleet, some of which were rebodied at some stage in their lives. Perhaps when you have a large fleet, you have to find a way of making them work. The vehicle in this photo was one of those that went to Wilts & Dorset – as far as I recall the vehicles concerned were S38-40 and S81-110. The first 17 were for Hants & Dorset, and the rest for W&D, but some didn’t enter service with their new owners until after the advent of NBC corporate liveries and the disappearance of the W&D name. A few did receive Tilling red or green (H&D’s version of it), and some ran with H&D or W&D fleetnames on the M&D dark green. There was more than just the one that Pete mentions in Tilling red – JKK 207E ran in Southampton for a while in that condition. I guess it must have been the spring/summer of 1972, and I have an idea that it was quite often used on the evening 47B service to Hursley – usually a crew working!
Nigel Frampton
15/07/17 – 06:56
At Winchester our three Metro Scanias were replaced by three of these Panthers, the three London Country Nationals for which the Scanias were swapped were allocated originally to Southampton. So the Panthers had a hard act to follow although I accept the Metro Scanias were not to everyone’s taste. Altogether we had 8 panthers allocated in the mid seventies, including the three ex King Alfred ones. It was rare that more than six were on the road at any one time. The three ex London Country buses finally arrived at Winchester when most of Southamptons allocation of Nationals were swapped with REs from around the Hants and Wilts depots. Southampton was desperately short of fitters and the Nationals were proving to be almost as challenging as the Panthers were so the powers that be decided to share the problem around!
Steve Barnett
16/07/17 – 16:42
The attached may be of interest. In Hants and Dorset colours JKK190E is leaving Winchester Bus Station in December 1975. Although I have slides of the Panthers taken in Wilts and Dorset colours on routes around Basingstoke, these are at present in store following our recent move. One was often on the 76 to Andover which might explain an evening ride I enjoyed on Basingstoke’s last LL5G !
Keith Newton
17/07/17 – 06:00
Keith’s picture shows 1695 which was one of the replacements for the Metro Scanias, the 66 was their regular home mainly I think due to slow running time which meant the struggle on hills didn’t affect timekeeping too much. Incidentally the view shown is about to change significantly, the bus station closed a week ago. The garage in the background is being demolished and stands are being built on the left hand side to facilitate running in the other direction. This finally takes buses out of the pedestrian area of the city. (Ex King Alfred leopard in the background)
Steve Barnett
20/07/17 – 07:17
My misty memory recalls that the 30 Fleetline / Marshall two-door single decks were arriving when I landed at M&D in 1970. They all went to Medway towns. GM Arthur White had a history of buying large batches of new types of vehicles and I suspect that these were ordered to replace Panthers which could not perform adequately there and the need for single decks elsewhere was indeed a good way of moving vehicles out and keeping more reliable machines, especially after new CE Vin Owen had prevailed with Leopard orders rather than AEC or Panthers. I can recall investigating a few engine fires in those days and Panthers were not quite as bad as 590 Reliances from what I recall! Of course the 1970 SD Fleetlines did not last long as a new Traffic Manager wanted more capacity, so they were swopped for similar age DD Fleetlines with Northern General, now that OMO operation of DD had been accepted in the company. See www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/
Geoff Pullin
19/11/20 – 06:47
The later Strachans Panthers were sent to Willowbrook circa 1974/5 and heavily rebuilt, to maintain the integrity of the body structures. At one point they were considering complete new bodies, but ended up with a cheaper option.
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1958 AEC Regent V LD3RA Park Royal H65R
975 CWL is an AEC Regent V of the LD3RA variety. She was new in 1958 and has a Park Royal body seating 65. New to City of Oxford as their 975, she is seen in the yard of the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton, still in Provincial (Gosport & Fareham) green and cream but with Hants & Dorset fleetname in NBC style. It’s April 1975 and she is between duties on the 47 Winchester service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
16/03/14 – 09:42
A beautifully balanced classic design. What were BET and PRV thinking when they let those dreadful steel framed monsters loose on the world. I cannot believe it was impossible to produce a better design – just because they had steel frames. As was pointed out recently, sticking a Beverley Bar outline on a Bridgemaster worked wonders at East Yorkshire.
David Oldfield
16/03/14 – 09:43
It’s a long time since I submitted this, because so many of you have been sending in far better views, but I have a vague recollection the original text said that she is preserved.
Pete Davies
16/03/14 – 11:55
With only 65 seats in a 30ft body, the legroom must have been quite generous!
Chris Barker
17/03/14 – 07:45
I have this listed as preserved in Kidlington but have never seen it.
Ken Jones
17/03/14 – 17:33
Yes – preserved awaiting restoration.
Philip Lamb
17/03/14 – 17:34
This picture sums up for me the confusion of the early NBC era. It’s a green Hants & Dorset bus, but it’s not H&D Tilling green. It’s in Provincial green/cream, but not their traditional style. It’s a BET origin bus operating for a former Tilling company. (OK, Hants & Dorset operated some AEC Regent III’s earlier). In the background is a Lodekka, presumably a Hants & Dorset bus, but in red, not in green! Well, it did all settle down of course to just red or green in NBC shades, until Confusion Stage 2 arrived with deregulation. Hants & Dorset survives (sort of) under the fleet name “Damory Coaches”, operating some stage services in Dorset in a rather non-descript grey livery. It’s part of Wilts and Dorset, which is part of Go Ahead. Yes, times have moved on. The Regent V in the picture does still look good, and was splendid in it’s original City of Oxford livery.
Michael Hampton
18/03/14 – 08:23
Very generous, Chris, most 30ft deckers of this layout were usually around the 73 seat mark.
Ronnie Hoye
18/03/14 – 10:55
These buses were known in Oxford as “Queens’ due to their size and indeed majestic appearance. 65 was later to become the standard COMs seating capacity for double-deckers with centre gangway in the upper saloon until the arrival of the first Fleetlines, following the first batch of Bridgemasters which seated 72. Subsequent Bridgemasters and the Renowns had a shortened rear overhang and were all 28-ft long 65-seat forward-entrance vehicles – not quite as roomy as the Queens! The five Lolines were forward-entrance 63-seaters.
Philip Lamb
18/03/14 – 10:57
I have always presumed that the reason for 65 seats in a 30ft body was in order to comply with an agreement with the staff in respect of maximum capacities – such agreements were common at the time. Having said that, Oxford’s first Bridgemasters (306-15) were 72-seaters – there may have been a ‘no standing passengers’ agreement, or restrictions on which routes they served. Anyone know the full story? Later Oxford Bridgemasters (316-28) and all the Renowns (329-71) were short 65-seaters. Oxford purchased sixteen 30ft Regent Vs in late 1957/early 1958 – eight with Weymann bodies (964-71) and eight Park Royal (972-9). All were H37/28R while with Oxford. As far as I am aware, all the above sixteen went for further service with other operators after sale by Oxford. Stevensons (of Spath) upseated 966 and fitted platform doors, making it H41/32RD. Laycocks of Barnoldswick fitted doors to 968, but left the seating as it was – as 968 was replacing an accident-damaged 53-seater, the capacity perhaps wasn’t seen as critical. Were any of the others upseated, or fitted with doors?
David Call
18/03/14 – 13:48
Michael, the Hants & Dorset Lodekka with the T style indicator display you mention is XPM 47, new to Brighton Hove & District.
Pete Davies
18/03/14 – 17:26
Thank you, Pete D for the info about the red Lodekka in the background – doesn’t it just add to the glorious (or inglorious) mix of events at that time? Although of Tilling origin, it’s original colours were neither tilling red or green, but a handsome red and cream! Also, a correction. I have passed several Damory vehicles today, and all were a deep blue, quite smart if admiring modern vehicles. Perhaps the grey was a passing phase, or my poor memory.
Michael Hampton
19/03/14 – 07:27
No, Michael – our successors in title to the Hants & Dorset “COMPANY” name, if not the fleetname, are like the rest of the ‘Go South Coast’ group in that they don’t seem able to keep a livery for long. Could be Worst (f), of course!!!
Pete Davies
19/03/14 – 07:28
969 gained platform doors when owned by Leon of Finningley.
Keith Clark
19/03/14 – 16:27
On an isolated trip into Damory country some years ago, I seem to recall seeing the buses in light grey and white, perhaps another passing phase, Michael!
Chris Hebbron
20/03/14 – 17:21
I don’t recall seeing any grey, Chris, but certainly turquoise has appeared in the past!
Pete Davies
22/03/14 – 08:23
I did a double-take when I saw this photo as I thought Pete Davies must have been standing next to me when he took it. However, my photo of this bus in the same place has a different route number and different vehicles in the background. H&Ds vehicle shortage was so bad at this time that I used to cycle to Shirley Road and Grosvenor Place every Sunday morning to see what had turned up that week – this one was a surprise though. I believe it lasted 5 weeks before the crews blacked it! I was told that the cab window had a habit of randomly dropping out over the bonnet!
Phil Gilbert
22/03/14 – 15:37
Phil G, most of my views at this location were taken during the working week, rather than at weekends, and usually during the lunch break.
Pete Davies
24/05/14 – 08:30
I used the ‘-CWL’ Regents in the late ’60s when travelling on the old ‘3’ service that ran along Walton Street, and they shared the route with (mostly)Renowns and Bridgemasters until the sudden arrival of the first ‘G’ reg., N.C.M.E. bodied Fleetlines that must have been the last ‘true’ Oxford’ double-deckers to keep both the old livery and the single-panel front route-number/destination display. With the Daimlers, a new, racier, ‘go faster’, ‘Oxford’ transfer appeared, smaller and less ‘stuffy’ than the old one. As for the roomy Regents, I always thought that the curvy bodywork of the second, Park Royal, batch helped redeem the plainness that came with the tin front: I never thought that any of these buses would survive their (routine) early retirement by C.O.M.S. and it was a surprise to find that ‘975’ may still be around as another potential showcase for the attractive old ‘Oxford’ livery (the ‘magic’ of the scheme was lost, in my view, when the it became a plain, two-colour affair).
I’ve been away from the Oxford area for decades and came across the correspondence on the ‘long Regents’ by accident. If my observation about ‘975’ gets posted, could I ask if anyone can explain why Oxford was flooded with ‘alien’ two-man double-deckers (such as Aldershot & District’s Loline 1s and East Kent’s Regent Vs) in the late ’60s? Was this an early manifestation of the N.B.C. homogenisation that would bring the inevitable Bristol VRs, or was their some kind of operational crisis that required a ‘loan out’ from other operators.
John Hardman
25/05/14 – 09:28
Re vehicle shortages in Oxford. In 1981/82 I was working in “The City” and attended a talk given by the head of City of Oxford M.S. He said that every time the hourly pay rates increased in the Cowley car factory, the mechanical/engineering staff left Cowley Road depot for more pay. So it could well have been a lack of engineering staff, until the next pay rise on the bus side of the equation. Eventually COMS moved the engineering facility to Witney, so as to make it uneconomical to commute to the car factory in Cowley.
Dave Farrier
25/06/14 – 08:19
Dorset Transit buses were white, light grey and orange- there were a couple of Leyland National 1’s at least- not sure if there were other types. I have seen pictures of them parked up amongst Damory vehicles, but don’t know if there was a connection.
Mark
02/05/16 – 06:40
Reference the vehicle shortages, that was indeed the case – engineering staff shortages. It became a major embarrassment at Oxford (and further afield) in the early days of NBC. So they flooded the streets with unconventional vehicles (for Oxford streets) that were running well while the maintenance was transferred to other companies.
Alan O. Watkins
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/10/17 – 07:02
Just a note to say that 975CWL is still alive, albeit still awaiting finishing off. 75% of the major work has been completed but other projects have recently had priority and I would also like to see 975 completed before I “pop off” Regarding the vehicle shortages, yes staff was a part off the problem but a major factor was the lack of AEC engine parts, notably 470 & 505 pistons and liners which were in very short supply and caused most of the COMS fleet of Reliances and Swifts to be off the road at the same time. Also a lot of the cooling systems were in bad shape due to the resistance to using anti-freeze in the early sixties……………and it came back to bite them! When a new Chief Engineer was appointed in 1973 there was much needed investment carried out in the Engineering department with new facilities for annual MOT preparation made at Chipping Norton Depot, not Witney although this depot was also enlarged to cope with the extra allocation. In 1973 25 Fords were introduced to replace the Reliances………but that is another story!
In case readers were thinking the bulk of my photographs are of operators in the Midlands and North of England, here is something to balance matters. GRU978D was a Bristol FLF6B in the Hants & Dorset fleet. She is seen on the sunny morning of 29 May 1970, and is at Hamble Square, ready to return to Woolston on the 81. I believe she went to the USA when withdrawn.
As a young enthusiast on the south coast, Hants and Dorset was my nearest Tilling operator, often seen at Fareham, and Southampton. In those days, I sometimes felt that Tilling companies (BTC, then THC) were all “much the same”. That was before the impact of NBC – then we really knew what “all the same” meant! Here in the south, I reflect that it was possible to distinguish between the green Tilling companies (Hants and Dorset, Southern/Western National, Bristol Omnibus) or red ones (Wilts and Dorset, Thames Valley) by little idiosyncrasies as fleet number application (plates or transfers), the obvious registration letters used, and even destination indicator styles. Although the screen layout was an evolving national policy, somehow the style of the text differed between these operators – or was it just my imagination!? Several of these fleets also contained a number of vehicles unique to themselves. At Hants and Dorset, there were all-Leyland PD2s (highbridge), some NCME-bodied Regents (diverted from Western SMT), and H&D’s own open-top rebuilds with full-fronts. I think these bodies started on some pre-war Bristol Ks, and were transferred successively over a few years to some war-time Ks, and finally to some post-war Ks. These bodies, I believe, were rebuilt by H&D’s works from the original Brush bodies supplied pre-war (as ordinary half-cab double-deckers). So the FLF in the picture would have been “standard viewing” at the time, but brings great pleasure now. Incidentally, the name Hants and Dorset has disappeared, but the company became owned by Wilts and Dorset after privatisation (a reversal of the NBC era, when H&D controlled W&D!). But under modern W&D control, the H&D subsidiary is now called “Damory Coaches”. While in Weymouth last week, I photographed two Olympians – but they weren’t sailing – just waiting near the King’s Statue on the seafront for their return journey on their Olympic charter. Much too modern for this site, but they did look proud in the sunshine.
Michael Hampton
14/08/12 – 11:37
Have no history whatsoever with Hants & Dorset, but always preferred the Bristol engine. H & D had some of the rare (late) Leyland engined FLFs. I only learned recently that this option was put on the list after the Bristol engine was removed from it. Looking at this picture though, it shows the perfect proportions of the FLF body. Balance and symmetry are always the basis of a good design.
David Oldfield
14/08/12 – 11:39
Rob Sly has an excellent website listing preserved Bristol Lodekka buses, VR, LH and RE. This bus did go to USA and was red in 2011 which is the last update – full details at //bcv.robsly.com/
Ken Jones
15/08/12 – 07:55
As far as I’m aware, one of the main reasons Northern bought Routemasters was United’s introduction of this type of Loddeka onto the routes they operated jointly. Northerns RD Park Royal PD2’s were getting a bit long in the tooth, and although the PDR1 Atlantean had been in service with Northern for a couple of years it was decided to go for the Routemaster instead. Being a BET company, Northern never had any of these, but that all changed with the formation of NBC, when for reasons best known to the powers that be, long established fleets were shuffled around like decks of cards. I cant remember the exact number, but at Percy Main we had some Daimler Fleetlines transferred to United in exchange for Loddeka’s, but they only stayed a matter of a few weeks and were replaced by the AEC Renowns that came from East Yorkshire, the Bristol’s going on to other depots. I remember one or two drivers being caught out by the gearbox, where it wasn’t possible to go into neutral from fifth without going through forth. Digressing back to fleet reshuffles, some depots got buses from as far afield East Kent and Maidstone and District, make sense of that if you can.
Ronnie Hoye
15/08/12 – 07:56
On the fringes (in two respects) to what Michael H said about name changes, I notice that neighbour Wilts & Dorset are re-naming their Bournemouth and Poole operation ‘MORE’! Bizarre!
Chris Hebbron
15/08/12 – 07:57
Can’t help but agree with you David, on the ‘just right’ proportions of the FLF. Handsome machines from any angle. Hants & Dorset did indeed have some FLFs with Leyland (0.600) engines, as did Wilts & Dorset. Interestingly, both fleets also specified semi-auto gearboxes to mate up with them. I could never understand however, why H&D had to change it’s livery from green to red under NBC ownership. Surely it can’t have been to differentiate between the H&D and Provincial (green) fleets. A similar fate befell West Riding Auto up here in the ‘Olympic Medal County’ of Yorkshire, where WR’s green fleet went red under NBC. Strangely, this meant that its fleet livery was then the same as associate company Yorkshire Woollen District, which retained its red. Maybe someone could explain?!
Brendan Smith
15/08/12 – 11:30
Chris H, there are rumblings that the name SALISBURY REDS is being extended from just the company’s activities in that City to Romsey and other routes as well, while MORE is being extended from Bournemouth and Poole to include Lymington. It’s being said that the W&D name will vanish (again) from bus sides, though I understand that it will remain as the legal lettering.
Brendan, going on from that, the history of Wilts & Dorset to 1972 includes a reference to the green to red transition of Hants & Dorset. It has nothing to do with trying to distinguish from Provincial. When the joint management of H&D/W&D were told that the W&D name was to be dropped, they were so disgusted by the dropping of such a highly respected name they decided “We’re going red”.
Pete Davies
15/08/12 – 11:31
No logic in the halls of NBC Brendan. Maroon East Midland became leaf green.
David Oldfield
15/08/12 – 14:55
Wasn’t NBC policy a poor attempt at LT/Greenline… Country services to be green, urban services red? If I recall, a lot of the “used” Wulfrunian replacements at WR had arrived in green… and I think stayed that way…?? Anyway, privatised WR went back to green, if not the same one…. Of course, WR had once been part red anyway!
Joe
19/08/12 – 07:52
This must be the smartest design of all ECW double decker Bristols
Jim Hepburn
19/08/12 – 07:54
David, I seem to remember that East Midland (maroon) absorbed Mansfield District (green), is that when East Midland went green?
Vernon Ford
19/08/12 – 08:30
That’s very true, Vernon – but it’s no excuse! [I read recently a theory that NBC went green for rural and red for urban – but that doesn’t explain Hants & Dorset going from green to red!] …..and of course the blues (East Yorkshire and Midland General) had to go red. None of this would have been half so bad if Tilling Red, Green and Cream had been retained. Visually – and on quality – they were better than Leaf Green and Poppy Red which faded within the year.
David Oldfield
19/08/12 – 12:00
I seem to recall reading somewhere that certain bus companies which had their origins in tramways, and which had not set up a separate company later to operate buses, were therefore statutory companies (i.e. set up by Acts of Parliament). The Acts specified in very minute detail the activities of the operator and in some cases this could even specify the livery that would be used (though obviously not in the majority of cases as many tramway operators changed their liveries). I believe Mansfield District was such a case, and the green livery on the bus fleet could only be changed by another Act of Parliament, which would have been too much hassle, so when East Midland took them over it was easier to adopt a green livery for the entire fleet. Has anyone else heard of this?
John Stringer
19/08/12 – 15:05
This may be right- I think, John S, that tramways regulations were why West Riding ran a red fleet on the old tram routes, and there might be some obscure connection with the centre entrances?
Joe
20/08/12 – 07:59
John, regarding your comments on statutory companies and Acts Of Parliament, I seem to recall reading something similar about Provincial surviving as a fleet in its own right for a similar reason, after acquisition by NBC. Even though Provincial came under Hants & Dorset administrative control, the fleetname and green livery were retained, whereas Wilts & Dorset, a larger NBC subsidiary, was swept away altogether under NBC ‘rationalisation’. If the above is correct, was another Act of Parliament actually passed when NBC was privatised? If it wasn’t, on a mischievous note, wouldn’t it be nice to inform First Group that Provincial’s fleetname and livery must be reinstated….?
Brendan Smith
20/08/12 – 08:00
Joe, am I right in thinking that West Riding trams were red and buses green? (why the difference? – a subsidiary company operated the buses to start with?? [time to consult bookshelf!]) and this difference perpetuated on the Wakefield-Leeds tram-replacement buses because those services operated “jointly” with the Rothwell-Leeds services of LCT. Red WR buses could carry local passengers, green buses could not. I think the distinction was ended after LCT bought out Wallace Arnold’s Kippax & District (also Farsley Omnibus Co) operations: a coordination agreement (see V4 of John Soper’s/LTHS’s excellent history of LCT et al) was subsequently entered into in respect of the Leeds-Garforth corridor, which allowed (green) WR buses to carry local passengers – so the retention of red buses on the “track” was pointless, although as there were still WR services that couldn’t pick up in Leeds I suppose WR could have painted Leeds-Garforth buses in red as well. Whatever, with all these (in many cases poorly advertised) restricted carrying arrangements – which varied from town to town – in force is it any wonder that passengers deserted the bus?
I’m going to stick my neck out here and say that this red “urban”/green “rural” NBC livery theory is a load of tosh – Alder Valley (a new company) went red – and it’s territory can hardly be described as urban – as did East Yorkshire (ditto, country-wise) when it changed colour. Cumberland, Ribble, West Yorkshire, Eastern Counties, East Kent (and the previously-mentioned Hants & Dorset) – all with large rural areas stayed/went red. I remember reading, many years ago when the privatisation BA livery was introduced, that even office furniture down to desk tidies was changed: the logic being that corporate means the same throughout, down to the last item. I’ve read that NBC (and their design consultants!) wanted to go “poppy red all over” but that that the managers of green fleets put forward a strong-enough case for that colour to be retained. The blue fleets weren’t so lucky, in the long run: no standard blue was decided on and the choice of colour was left down to the Regional Chairman: Stratford Blue had gone by this time; Midland General was told to go red, after a period in which it painted it’s buses in NBC-style “Balfour Beatty” blue; EYMS and Sunderland District were allowed to stay (their own) blue by the Regional Chairman ([sic] I think, as NBC seemed to have a habit of changing Regional boundaries around this time), but Sunderland District was then absorbed by Northern – and that just left EYMS with a non-standard indigo livery, which then succumbed . . . except for plucky little Jones. Now I’ve heard that when the directors of Jones sold out to NBC they insisted that the the Jones identity AND blue be preserved for ten years – would that fit in with when the Jones identity disappeared under MAP? Wholly-urban Provincial and (OK, this is pushing it) Bristol Joint Services and “Bath Services” stayed green, and indeed, Cheltenham District went green. Red “urban”. green “rural”? – seems like a London-centric fixation.
Philip Rushworth
20/08/12 – 09:06
Nah, Philip. My body’s down south but my heart’s still in the north.
David Oldfield
20/08/12 – 11:40
Nay Philip, I haven’t a clue. West Riding buses were green except the red ones on the old tram routes- Leeds and, I think, Ossett. These had centre entrances and, I think, double staircases (like trams?!) An early example of route branding, but can anyone confirm the fundamental reason? Was it passenger co-ordination, or tramway legislation? After all, Yorks Woollen latterly ran into Leeds in red…. I still think that deep in the NBC head office was the belief that buses were born either green or red, and green ones ran in leafy suburbs. The fact that this didn’t work across the country was only realised later….
Joe
20/08/12 – 13:56
Just a small point arising from Philip Rushworth’s comment on Alder Valley. When Aldershot and District was, in effect, taken over by Thames Valley – one of the best BET companies being swallowed up by one of the worst BTC ones – to form Alder Valley in January 1972, the livery initially adopted was maroon, on the rather tenuous pretext that this was the colour formed by mixing TV red and A&D green. London Country Bus Services next door already used a green livery, so that, when the dead hand of Freddy Wood’s standardisation came to be applied, the maroon became red.
Roger Cox
20/08/12 – 13:58
Brendan, When the Barbie livery was introduced, along with the dropping of the local fleetnames, I wrote to the local branch of First to suggest the very same thing in respect of Provincial. The then MD wrote back to say they had considered this, but weren’t worried. From that, I guess the disposal of certain fleetnames may have been written into the 1985 Act, but I must admit I’ve never read it.
Pete Davies
21/08/12 – 07:34
As well as Bristol staying green so did Crosville who were a very urban operator in the north of their territory.
Chris Hough
21/08/12 – 08:32
Yes Chris, but outside Bristol and Liverpool/Wirral they were both very rural.
David Oldfield
21/08/12 – 20:29
We can surely add Eastern National and United Counties to the list of the NBC “Greens” with much urban mileage.
Roger Cox
24/08/12 – 08:26
Joe The fundamental reason, was I think, that red buses on “the track” (Leeds-Wakefield) were joint/coordinated with LCT buses on Leeds-Rothwell (both having been jointly-worked/coordinated tram services) and could pick-up within the LCT area. The significance of this distinction ended when green WR buses on the Leeds-Garforth corridor were also allowed to pick-up within the LCT boundary following a co-ordination agreement with LCT on that corridor.
Philip Rushworth
04/02/13 – 06:59
Further to the query regarding the survival of Gosport & Fareham under NBC, I well remember Peter Hunt, then General Manager at H&D/G&F telling me that, as G&F was a Statutory Company, an Act of Parliament would be necessary to extinguish it. At that time (around 1977) the estimated legal costs of such an Act was £30,000, which was not considered justified. In any case, Peter Hunt said in a public meeting at which I was present “I think small is beautiful” he thought the efficiency benefits of small-unit cohesion far outweighed any possible advantage from scrapping it. Would that the current crop of industry managers had his wisdom!
David Jones
04/02/13 – 09:58
It’s statutory status probably stemmed from its creation as a tram company. I would have thought, though, that the name could merely have been discontinued and/or the company made moribund. It looks as if the small is beautiful, and a certain affection for this quirky organisation by Peter Hunt and well-loved by locals and enthusiasts alike, won the day! And hooray for that! Shame it never happened to equally loved and respected Samuel Ledgard.
Chris Hebbron
25/06/13 – 07:40
Here’s one for Lodekka enthusiasts… I once boarded a Hants & Dorset FS which featured something I’ve never ever seen on any other Lodekka – it had an opening top vent in the nearside rear lower bulkhead window. I know this to be true, but can anyone shed any light on this particular vehicle?
Colin Plucknett
25/06/13 – 11:45
Coincidence can be a funny thing. I’m travelling at present but have a number of models with me to show to/sell to a friend. One is a Corgi Lodekka FS being Hants and Dorset 1512, CEL 860C. This is modelled with a top opening light in the nearside front bulkhead window so I presume that all that batch, at least, had them.
Phil Blinkhorn
25/06/13 – 11:47
Colin both West Yorkshire and Crosville also had an opening window on the front lowerdeck window on their FS Lodekkas.
Chris Hough
28/06/13 – 07:22
Thanks very much Phil and Chris for your interesting replies – however, the window I am thinking of is one of the pair in the rear downstairs. I have since turned up one half-shot from a book and you can just see what I mean. It really is a rare thing – and at least it proves I’m not going mad!!! Any further ideas chaps?
Colin Plucknett
13/12/13 – 16:55
In case anyone is curious, the last H&D FLF 1577, LLJ 443F, is preserved and appears annually at the King Alfred Running day in Winchester, on 1st January. Free rides all day on part of the 47 road, all welcome.
Alex Geisler
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
13/02/14 – 17:01
When Hants and Dorset was split up into smaller units Wilts and Dorset was one of the resulting companies. To rename buses from Hants and Dorset to Wilts and Dorset the simple expedient of printing some stickers that read “WIL” and placing them over the “HAN” of Hants and Dorset was used.
7678 LJ is a Bristol FS6B with ECW H60RD bodywork, new to Hants & Dorset as 1478 in 1962. Under the 1971 renumbering, she became 1137. As we see, she has the offside illuminated advert panel and is in the NBC poppy red livery. She’s at Barton Park, Eastleigh in August 1976. This is where the waters become decidedly murky. The PSVC listing for this fleet (PK782) does not record her as having been painted thus, though it does mention some of her sisters, and it does not tell us when she was withdrawn. She looks to have been newly repainted in this view, but is among several withdrawn ones in W&D red, H&D green and NBC red. Any comments, folks?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
16/07/15 – 15:30
Withdrawn in 1976 according to Peter Gould website.
Graham Woods
16/07/15 – 15:31
7678 LJ was repainted into NBC red livery in June 1975, withdrawn in August 1976, and sold to Martin (dealer) at Middlewich the following month. It had had the air suspension (at the rear) replaced by coil springs in September 1968. I don’t have information on any subsequent owners, however.
Peter Delaney
17/07/15 – 05:46
Between 1965-69 I worked as a fitter at West Yorkshire Road Car, York Depot. The air bags at the rear usually one would loose air and the flex beam that supported it would break, the other air bag could compensate for awhile. On replacing said components it had to be reset with the levelling valve by removing alloy plates near the rear seats. Also the Lodekka had upstairs heater radiators, getting the air out of the water system took sometime if the heads etc had been off. Best fitting job I had.
Peter Lister
17/07/15 – 05:47
Thank you, Graham and Peter. I’m forced to ask, if she was withdrawn in 1976 – as my photograph suggests – then why bother with the repaint? It’s like British Railways in the Beeching era – the line closes in three weeks, so let’s put down some new ballast!
Pete Davies
17/07/15 – 12:37
………or RAF stations, Pete D. If they started tarting one up, you knew it was doomed within the year! Happened twice to me!
Chris Hebbron
18/07/15 – 06:16
Been to Mildenhall recently, then, Chris H? The Pentagon have announced its closure within two or three years. The units there don’t want to move [to Germany] and the locals are hoping a Republican gets in at the next election.
Pete Davies
29/12/15 – 06:51
I think I can answer this one; As a local enthusiast at the time, I was making regular visits to Poole depot where this vehicle was based. I clearly recall this bus as it was in fact the first ‘later-style’ FS to be taken out of service, and this was because it suffered major engine failure and being fitted with a BVW unit, was withdrawn prematurely rather than being repaired (there were I believe, still some late LD’s in service at the time). Hope this is helpful!
Geoff
29/12/15 – 10:44
Thank you, Geoff. That explains everything!
Pete Davies
16/02/17 – 07:02
The picture of 1478 stirred a long-forgotten memory for me – and I’m hoping it may be something you bus detectives might be able to clear up! During a visit to my grandparents at Lee-on-Solent sometime in the mid to late sixties, I remember boarding a very similar bus (still happily in Tilling green at the time), and noticing it had an opening push-out top vent to the nearside outwardly curved window at the rear (i.e. the one on the back nearest to the platform doors). I have never seen this on any other Lodekka. The bus was most definitely an FS and it had cream window rubbers, so it would have been post 1961-62. As I was a keen enthusiast in those days, I seem to recall the registration was of the four number/two letter arrangement. It could actually be this very bus, or at least one of the same batch. Can anyone shed any light on this unique Lodekka?
Colin Plucknett
22/04/17 – 07:25
Colin, I can recall the vehicle you mention; in fact somewhere I have a photo of it, but would mean a lot of digging to find it I’m afraid! It was certainly a Southampton based FS and did have a ‘push out’ type vent (normally fitted to the front bulkhead windscreen) in the top of the rear emergency door glass. It was probably done as some kind of long forgotten experiment!
SRU 981 was new to Hants & Dorset in 1956 as their 1368. It is a Bristol LD6 with ECW body H60R seating when new. The Bristol engine was replaced by a Gardner in 1961, making it a Bristol LD6G and doors were fitted in that year. In the first view, on Southampton Common on 6 May 1979, it has been sold to the Cotswold Hotel as a mobile dining facility. The occasion is the Southampton City Transport Centenary rally.
In this second view, taken on 2 April 1995, it is in the Southampton Citybus yard in Portswood, in the livery of Hants & Dorset Trim. It was with the ‘new’ Crosville, in Weston Super Mare when the 2012 PSVC list was compiled.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
11/08/16 – 06:30
Would I be right in thinking that SRU981 would have been one of the first Lodekkas with the squarer front grille as opposed to the deeper front panel on earlier models? Also I notice in the lower picture that Lucas combination tail lights have been fitted. Originally I think that model had a stop/tail bulb on the inside of the body behind the reflectors. This meant that the stop lights were virtually impossible to see in sunny weather, and after a short while when the bulbs & inside of the reflectors got dusty, making them impossible to see in just about any conditions. I think originally indicators were fitted on the sides at the front only (like Southampton Corporation for a while) but later round Lucas indicators were fitted above the reflectors. Saved a lot of money in rear corner panel repairs by doing that!
A Happy New Year to you all! It seems strange to hear that in May, but it was heard several times at Winchester on 4th May! Many enthusiasts and passers by gathered to give this Running Day a welcome at this new May date. The weather was certainly an improvement.
Illustrated here is Bristol LL6G KLJ 749, new to Hants & Dorset in 1950. It is unusual in having bodywork by Portsmouth Aviation (DP36R), one of ten supplied to Hants & Dorset in this batch. It is seen at Colden Common, before returning to The Broadway. The interior shot shows the multiplicity of notices displayed on the bulkhead.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Hampton
19/05/15 – 06:11
Very nice photos of a fine bus, but–at the risk of being a tiresome pedant–I’m sure it’s an LL6G. That Garner 6LW makes it really fly along!
Ian T
19/05/15 – 06:13
A very handsome vehicle only slightly let down by the indicator box which looks to be from an earlier era and the slope doesn’t help. It looks to be beautifully restored throughout but what a pity that a modern prohibition sign has been placed on the front bulkhead pillar. ‘elf and safety no doubt rearing its ugly, pedantic head again.
Phil Blinkhorn
19/05/15 – 06:13
Thx for posting a view of this vehicle, Michael, which certainly gets around in its dotage. It’s amazing how shades of art deco remained in coach design for quite a time after the war. Why on earth did Hants & Dorset go to Portsmouth Aviation to body these vehicles rather than ECW, one wonders, although the finished article is attractive. What do we know of Portsmouth Aviation? I know nothing.
Chris Hebbron
19/05/15 – 07:46
The reason this didn’t have an ECW body was the length of the Gardner 6LW engine. It required the front bulkhead to be further back and this would be a major change to a standardised body that it appears ECW weren’t prepared to do. As a consequence the numbers of K6Gs and L5Gs were rather limited and all had ‘other’ body builders. The best illustration of the difference can be found in the Pontypridd fleet as they had both Ls and Ks with 5- and 6-cylinder engines, all with Beadle bodies and the difference in engine can readily be seen in the body.
David Beilby
20/05/15 – 06:05
I agree with Phil Blinkhorn’s comment re-the indicator box. I can’t help thinking that the effect is made worse by that H&D idiosyncrasy – the sun-visor over the driver’s windscreen. Was it really all that much more sunny in their territory than, say, Southern Vectis just across the water, or Southern National a bit farther west in Weymouth? I guess someone will come up with the reason for this appendage, and the name of him who decreed that all H&D buses must have one!
Stephen Ford
20/05/15 – 06:06
You’re quite right Chris- Art Deco seemed to be the decor of choice for coaches- especially half cabs- for a long time. The story of the Gardner engine is a glimpse of the past. It at first seems amazing that fleets of buses were obliged to use one chassis/coachbuilder and then that the coachbuilder should work on what later became a British Leyland principle of- effectively- dictating what your chassis was to be. How did the economics work? Were they negotiated contracts? And how, in reality, different are things in more recent times with Government telling you what sort of vast bussernaut to run? And how appropriate was tendering anyway? And were BET in reality any better than Tilling? Is it the case that civic pride and local councillor pressure often worked to passengers’ benefit in the municipalities? Questions, questions…
Joe
20/05/15 – 06:07
What a superbly handsome vehicle indeed with a glorious traditional high quality interior too. I do agree with Phil that the slope of the destination display might make for difficulty in reading, especially in certain bright conditions, but on balance I feel that the ECW “near vertical” pattern would have spoilt the look of the bus, particularly the flow of the roofline. The ECW type did though, of course, blend perfectly well with the Lowestoft design in what were, in my view, the finest looking and most practical front engined deckers of the postwar era.
Chris Youhill
23/05/15 – 07:11
Chris Hebbron asks about Portsmouth Aviation. I know little about this company but browsed a book about it some years ago. Photographs showed rebuilding of the bodies of some of Portsmouth Corporation’s Leyland TD4’s. Examination of the Company’s website and Wikipedia page shows that it is still in existence but not in the business of bus bodybuilding or rebuilding.
Andy Hemming
24/05/15 – 07:33
Thx, Andy, for shedding a little more light; doing work on Portsmouth Corporation’s TD4’s. They must have been under pressure to farm out work like that.
Chris Hebbron
02/08/16 – 06:54
KLJ 749 is still going strong. It is owned by two members of the Bristol Vintage Bus Group and was a star turn at the Group’s running day on the 31st July, 2016. I was privileged to act as conductor/banksman on a number of trips. Its climbing ability with a full load was quite impressive
Jerry Wilkes
04/08/16 – 09:14
In response to Chris Hebbron’s enquiry about Portsmouth Aviation, here is a bit of information, though the bus industry features only briefly in its history. Portsmouth Aviation was formed on 6 April 1929 as Inland Flying Services at Romford in Essex before moving in May 1930 to a small airfield on the Isle of Wight at Apse Manor, near Shanklin, where it undertook light aircraft maintenance work and offered pleasure flights. Meanwhile, in response to a 1928 government suggestion that all towns with a population of 20,000 or more should provide aviation facilities, Portsmouth Airport, a municipal venture, was developed from 1930 on the north east corner of Portsea Island. The first flight into the new airfield took place on 14 December 1930, although the official opening did not occur until 2 July 1932. Inland Flying Services then transferred its base to the new mainland airport and began operating a local air service to Ryde on the Isle of Wight, adopting the new name of the Portsmouth, Southsea and Isle of Wight Aviation Company. The inclusion of Southsea in the title was purely to encourage seaside custom; there was never an airport there. The Ryde airfield was opened by PSIOWA in 1932, becoming fully operational the following year. The company used typical aircraft of the period, amongst others the De Havilland Moth, Puss Moth, Dragon, Westland Wessex and Airspeed Envoy (Airspeed had transferred its business from York to Portsmouth in 1933). Developing rapidly, the firm began serving a number of air ferry destinations around the south coast, at the same time expanding its aviation engineering, maintenance and repair facilities. With the outbreak of hostilities in 1939, PSIOWA were ordered by the government to cease the flying services and concentrate upon aircraft maintenance, repair and modification duties, and this continued for the duration of the war. With the return of peace in 1946, PSIOWA changed its name to Portsmouth Aviation to reflect its core activities, but took on a wider range of work beyond the air industry. One such new venture was the construction of commercial vehicle bodywork to meet the post war surge in demand. It did, however, design and build one example of the Portsmouth Aviation Aerocar Major, a pod fuselage, twin engined, twin boom machine for a pilot and five passengers. The 1946 prototype was flown briefly in 1947 and exhibited at the 1948 and 1949 SBAC Farnborough Shows. Not having the resources for volume output, the firm made arrangements for series production to be undertaken in India, but the plan fell through, and the machine was scrapped in 1950. The bus bodywork side of the business fared rather better, with deliveries of single deckers on Bristol chassis to Hants & Dorset and Wilts & Dorset, plus others on Bedford OB chassis to the Independent sector. Remedial single and double deck bodywork attention was undertaken, including some Aldershot & District Dennis Lances and Portsmouth Corporation TD4s. Some Hants & Dorset lowbridge utility Guys are said to have been rebodied by the firm, but it is probable that the original Brush bodywork was rebuilt. In 1950, Portsmouth Aviation, like many others, dropped out of this declining market to concentrate on aviation and military business. The firm still exists on the site today, but this is not the case with Portsmouth Airport itself which closed in 1973 after some accidents that were attributed to the its inadequate size for modern aircraft. At that time it was the last significant commercial airport still relying upon a grass runway.
Roger Cox
06/08/16 – 06:35
More than I could have hoped for, Roger, many thanks. FWIW, The airport was doomed when, during a wet summer and soggy grass, a Hawker Siddeley 748 on Channel Isles’ service skidded almost onto the dual-carriageway Eastern Road arterial road into Portsmouth, with its mate almost doing the same thing 45 mins later! Aircraft this large were banned shortly afterwards and another operator used three Twin Pioneer planes, painted red, blue and yellow, but not big enough to be profitable. This proved to be the airport’s death knell. There was the opportunity to buy the closed Thorney Island RAF Station nearby, but Portsmouth Council said No and the more sensibly-sited Eastleigh (Southampton) Airport has taken over the mantle.
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1952 Bristol LL5G ECW FC37F
KRU 993 came to Hants & Dorset in February 1952 as a standard half cab LL6B with an ECW B39R body, one of a batch of seven similar vehicles, KRU 988-994, fleet nos. 782-788, delivered between September 1951 and February 1952. In June 1955 the Bristol AVW engine in KRU 993 was replaced by a Gardner 5LW, making the vehicle an LL5G, a conversion that had happened surprisingly earlier in October 1952 to KRU 990, and to KRU 991 in February 1953. It would seem that the other four retained their Bristol engines. Between September 1959 and July 1960 six of these buses were rebuilt by the operator to full fronted FB39F configuration for OPO operation, with KRU 992 being the last to be so treated in January 1962, but this had the lesser capacity of FB37F. All the others had their seating reduced to 37 in the years 1961 to 1966. The frontal treatment of the conversions ranged considerably from the plain appearance illustrated by KRU 993 through a variety of front panel designs, some bearing the more flamboyant ECW “coach” style radiator grille. KRU 993 is pictured in Southampton in 1962 when it was still a 39 seater, the reduction by two seats occurring in November 1964. 787 was was the first of the batch to be withdrawn in January 1967 when it passed to a dealer. The rest were sold out of service in the following year. I acknowledge the //www.bristolsu.co.uk and the Local Transport History Library websites as sources for much of this history.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
03/05/21 – 07:11
I assume the motive behind these engine swaps was to obtain 6-cylinder units for use in 5LW-engined K-types. The problem which BT&CC and presumably H&D found with the arrival of the KSWs with their higher power was that where older lower powered vehicles were mixed in with them they had difficulty keeping to time – hence taking 6-cylinder engines out of single deckers to use in the double deckers. Various other interesting features on H&D 787; the kerb view window similar to the SC type, the usual H&D sun-visor. This would also have had the pedestal type drivers seat with a catch released by a foot pedal allowing the seat to rotate so the driver could face the passengers to issue tickets. I always wondered about the safety aspects of these; what was to stop the seat going walkabout while on the move if it failed to catch when returned to the driving position?
Peter Cook
29/05/21 – 07:39
Far better looking than the leering toothy-grin radiator grille that marred so many other L rebuilds.
Wilts & Dorset Motor Services 1952 Bristol KSW5G ECW L55R
Here is a view of HMR 59, a Bristol KSW5G with ECW bodywork. By the time of this view, the 1952 vehicle had been relegated to training duties. She’s seen in the yard of the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton, in March 1975. By this time, NBC amalgamations were in full swing, and the Wilts & Dorset fleet name was soon to disappear.
The view is of particular interest in that both fleet names appear, in Tilling style, on the side.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
01/08/13 – 18:24
I well remember the changeover to Hants and Dorset in the Salisbury area. A typical NBC waste of money. Everyone I knew always said they were travelling on “the Wilts”. Under different management we have W&D back but in the Salisbury area they call themselves “Reds” and in Poole/ Bournemouth they are known as “More”. Goodness knows what this is supposed to mean.
Paragon
03/08/13 – 14:28
I know what you mean about names. locally we have buses run by ‘Et Cetera’ in the Chobham area. It sounds like they were an afterthought! Whatever is wrong with good old-fashioned no-nonsense titles, that did what it said on the tin?
Grahame Arnold
04/08/13 – 06:47
Grahame. I think you’ll find that the outfit you are talking about is the illiterate ExCetera – from Croydon – who seem to be cleaning up in Surrey at the moment. Living in Ottershaw, I am often in and around Chobham but have not seen them in service there yet. Working regularly around Croydon, I have seen quite a lot of them – and in the intervening territory.
David Oldfield
04/08/13 – 14:52
David Thank you for the correction. I also live in Ottershaw (26 years now) so we may have crossed paths at some point. I have seen the ‘Ex Cetera’ brand name on the Chobham-Woking route but there are no doubt others, as you say.
Grahame Arnold
05/08/13 – 08:04
I was in Guildford yesterday and there was a Buses Excetera vehicle passing me. There also appears to be a Coaches Excetera arm as well, the website not only giving a London Phone contact number, but also a Milan one! they do seem to cover the Croydon Epsom, Guildford corridor.
Chris Hebbron
05/08/13 – 10:33
Chris. I believe the coaches arm came first but I also suspect that it was a pre-existing company known by another name.
David Oldfield
05/08/13 – 17:42
FWIW, I read on the web that the Excetera came out of Croydon Coaches, but when I rang the latter, I was told that the Excetera had come out of EPI Coaches, also of Croydon and London.
Chris Hebbron
06/08/13 – 06:11
As a Croydonian whose wife comes from Guildford, and who spent many formative years in the bus industry at Reigate with LT(CB&C) and LCBS, and at Aldershot with the “Tracco”, together with years of moonlighting with Tillingbourne and North Downs, I prefer to remember the bus network in those parts as it was before the devastating Black Death known as Deregulation. Nowadays, whole swathes of industry, not just transport, are besotted with ‘rebranding’, for which they surrender stupendous sums to shiny suited simpletons in the “marketing” sector, and, in return, receive offerings of extreme absurdity that appear to emanate from the ludicrous world of Edward Lear. Grahame asks why things cannot now do what they say on the tin. Sadly, and increasingly, they often do – the tin has very little in it. Public service is now so shaky that one concludes it must be a punishable offence.
Roger Cox
06/08/13 – 08:23
I worked in Guildford, early ’60’s, working at Bridge House (long gone), by the station. We nicknamed it Bridge House over the River Wey! I’ve visited the town periodically over the years (wife grew up in Woking). I also seem to recall Safeguard, too. Also, an LT presence, with GS’s and RLH’s at Onslow Street. Is it still there?
Chris Hebbron
06/08/13 – 08:27
Grahame. Saw one in Woking yesterday morning. Roger, don’t hold back. [No, I agree with you all the way.]
David Oldfield
06/08/13 – 11:49
Chris, Guildford town centre (many locals continue to be under the misapprehension that the place is a city by virtue of its cathedral) was “remodelled” in the ’70s around the river Wey crossing area with a brutish, concrete abomination of a one way system that, amongst other things, obliterated the fine Farnham Road bus station. Onslow Street bus station over a footbridge on the other side of the river disappeared too, and Guildford now has its decidedly basic Friary bus station adjacent (inevitably) to a big shopping complex of that name on the site of the old Friary Meux Brewery. Mercifully, the old Dennis building at the junction of Bridge Street and Onslow Street has survived the devastation. Progress? (Another thing – have you noticed that policemen look younger these days?)
Roger Cox
06/08/13 – 18:00
Roger, having spent many years involved with marketing from both sides of the fence, as it were, I can’t let your remarks on “shiny suited simpletons” pass without comment. Marketing – as opposed to sales, is a very tenuous art, perhaps even a dark art. Over nearly 50 years I’ve seen it evolve (or should that be dissolve) from a tool to solidly position products and services in the mind of the buyer to a cure all for poor management decisions, badly thought out products and lack of understanding of the needs of the potential market. Unfortunately water finds its own level and if you are running a marketing company, an ad agency or a design house and you find that poorly conceived ideas are just as much accepted and command just as much income as those which take real thought, testing and development, the tendency is to take the line of least resistance. Equally to blame as poor managers who are prepared to accept lazy or shoddy marketing are the purchasers of the products and services so presented. There seems to be a trend in these islands where, as long as the product is cheap enough, doesn’t take effort to access or is perceived to be offered by a large enough institution, people take a laissez faire attitude. Just look at some of the very poor, banal and often totally irrelevant product advertising on TV. What sort of management allows an ad with a strap line “92% of 121 women agree”. More to the point, what sort of end user accepts such rubbish and even makes a purchasing decision on such an ad? Unfortunately far too many. This attitude extends into far more important matters: banks, for instance who change their terms and conditions at will to their benefit yet, if you as the other party to the contract want to make changes, you are told you can’t. Then the same bank will run an ad supported marketing campaign praising its customer friendly attitude and encouraging you to discuss your finances “in branch” – YUK! So, don’t blame those who provide the tools for such mediocrity, they are just trying to make a living and responding to the feedback they get from those that buy their services. That attitude may be morally bankrupt but morality in business can be a sure fire way to bankruptcy. Rant over!
Phil Blinkhorn
06/08/13 – 18:02
Policemen may indeed look younger but this retired one didn’t when he looked in the mirror this morning! The country must be getting very dangerous as all the coppers go about in pairs. Some of them look so young I am tempted to say to them what the Colonel said to the young officer in Dad’s Army “Haven’t you got a comic to read boy?” Seriously though they do a difficult job and in my experience it has always been a case of Lions led by Donkeys which also sums up much of our dear old country today. Back to the posting. I do miss the sight and sound of Bristols trundling round the streets of Salisbury.
Paragon
07/08/13 – 06:55
Thx for the update, Roger. So another town has been partially spoiled in the name of progress. You mention Guildford being thought of as a city, but many thought it the county town, too. Maybe it is now, with Kingston being lost to Greater London! Damn Edward Heath for his county meddling! I do know that Woking, a pleasant enough town in the 1970’s, is really ruined these days! But I digress.
Chris Hebbron
07/08/13 – 06:56
Phil, I accept all your comments on the matter of marketing. Ultimately, the client has to bear the blame for accepting trashy publicity and absurdly exaggerated product description. I, too, have gazed upon television advertising in bewilderment as product promotion soars to stratospheric heights of improbability and idiocy. You will have a better knowledge than I of the costs of each individual form of media advertising, but, when a telly advert screeches on for several minutes at outrageous cost without giving a clue to its ultimate product USP, then one wonders what measure of expenditure control is exerted at the client company. Branding has become a particular nonsense, and one suspects that some of the smaller clients are being bamboozled by professional marketeers into accepting names that belong more in a Doctor Who script or a Tolkien novel than in the real world of product placement. Sententious twaddle infects almost everything we see around us nowadays. The guy across the road works for the local housing association, which has adopted the utterly meaningless moniker “Luminus” (serves ’em right that it is usually referred to as “Loony Mouse”). His van bears the utterly vacuous slogan, “Demonstrating a more excellent way of doing business”. Quite apart from the uselessness of this blurb – the van isn’t demonstrating anything – whoever thought that up knows nothing of English grammar; you cannot have varying degrees of excellence – it is an absolute. Yet we see this sort of gibberish in advertising all around us now. End of my rant. I must press a cold flannel to my forehead. I must sound like King Lear screaming into the face of the storm.
Roger Cox
07/08/13 – 08:27
Kingston is still the County Town following the failure to decamp to Woking a year or two back. Despite the abomination that is the “Friary area”, Guildford is still a “nice town” in other parts of the centre – that cannot be said of Woking which has an even worse “bus station” (the road outside the railway station). As a pilcock, sorry pillar, of the Church of England, for many years I was under the illusion that a Cathedral imposed city status on a town. I was only disabused of this quite recently. There is at least one plaque on Guildford High Street extolling the virtues of the City of Guildford. Well, it would be better than some recently ennobled towns!
David Oldfield
07/08/13 – 13:07
Roger, in explaining the evolution and descent of much of marketing into mediocrity I failed to mention that, like you, I rage against such rubbish. Another nonsense, foisted on us “for our protection”, is the Data Protection Act. Example: talking on the phone to a UK government department this week I told the person on the phone at the start of the conversation that, after speaking to me, my wife had a query and I would pass the phone to her. During both conversations it must have become evident we were in the same room, that we have been married 42 years and that were exchanging comments to check information asked of both of us. My wife then asked a particular question which would have involved the person on the phone divulging information about me. This was 20 minutes into the call. She had to pass the phone to me so I could give permission for the question to be answered. Total b****y nonsense. Back to buses. The rear doors on the KSW, whilst no doubt a welcome addition for conductor and passengers, spoil the look of the vehicle. The width of the short bay and the jack knife doors are too similar making the rear of the lower deck look unbalanced compared to the rest of the well proportioned design.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/08/13 – 13:08
Well, this view has invited some interesting comments, has it not!!!!!! How a County Town can be other than in it’s ‘home’ County is beyond me. One of the early forms of Local Government Reorganisation – one of the rejected ones – was suggesting that Lancaster should leave Lancashire and go into Westmorland! County Town isn’t always the administrative centre of the County Council, of course – Appleby was the County town of Westmorland, but Kendal was the Admin centre. At least they are/were in the same County! Blackburn is another Cathedral town, but it isn’t a “City”. I’m not too sure about Arundel . . . Chelmsford is another place that has long been considered a City – the local football club even has that name – but it was ‘elevated’ last year as part of the Golden Jubilee.
Pete Davies
07/08/13 – 14:13
I like the way it says ‘This is a Driver Training Bus…..’ on the side, and on the front it shows ‘Training Vehicle’. It always rankled me when Yorkshire Rider boldly proclaimed our training buses to be Driver Training Units. Units ? They weren’t learning to drive a Unit – it was a bus for goodness sake ! They didn’t change their name to FirstUnit.
John Stringer
07/08/13 – 15:30
Don’t give Wirst Bus ideas, John. Arundel is different, Pete – it’s a Roman Catholic Cathedral and never in the same mix of cathedral/city arguments.
David Oldfield
07/08/13 – 15:30
Many of these comments remind me of my last years before retirement. For seventeen years I was a driver with one of the major supermarket chains, for the last seven of those I was a DSA registered HGV driving instructor/assessor, and as such I was regarded as management. All the instructors at the 20 odd depots used to say that there are two phrases that cover everything from incompetence to downright stupidity, they were “Company policy” and “Operational requirements”
Ronnie Hoye
07/08/13 – 17:24
The County Hall for Surrey is still in Kingston, though that town is now within a London Borough, having been annexed by the GLC in 1965. I think that this situation is unique, unless, of course, someone on the OBP knows different (and I bet that proves to be the case). It does seem remarkable that Surrey CC has been unable to find suitable premises for relocation in 48 years.
Roger Cox
08/08/13 – 07:27
It may be unique at county level, Roger, but certainly not at lower levels. The offices of North East Derbyshire District Council are within the Borough of Chesterfield, and when I lived in Newport in 1969 I was surprised to find the offices of Magor and St Mellons Rural(?) District Council there. In both these cases, however, the offices are/were geographically central to the strangely-shaped administrative area, despite being located outside it!
Peter Williamson
10/08/13 – 06:01
Two examples of ‘market-speak’ that irritate are ‘logistics’ and ‘solutions’. Haven’t the foggiest idea what either looks like, but there seem to be increasing numbers of trucks (logistics) and vans (solutions) carrying such items nationally. Presumably solutions are smaller or lighter than logistics. Whatever happened to the good old no nonsense word ‘haulage?’ As we know, in the bus and coach industry much heritage has been lost with the demise of such appendages as Traction, Automobile, Road Car, Motor Services, Omnibus etc. These titles of character and distinction have sadly been brushed aside in favour of the bland term ‘Travel’, or such corporate regional suffixes as ‘SouthEast’ and ‘The Shires’. Wonder how long it will be before a certain design and marketing consultancy will have us believe that bus operators are no longer bus operators, but actually ‘providers of local mass travel solutions’.
Brendan Smith
10/08/13 – 09:24
The word you need Brendan is “transit”. I’m sure Google used to use this on their travel directions, but it now says “Public Transport” presumably because people thought that was a route for white vans seeking logistics solutions. Logistics means we have GPS and know which layby you’re holed up in: solutions means we go very fast so the thing you forgot to send will still arrive.
Joe
10/08/13 – 18:33
In a similar vein, have you noticed that new roads are always named “Way” – never road, street, lane, avenue, drive, crescent or (a special Nottingham favourite this) Boulevard.
Stephen Ford
10/08/13 – 18:34
On the topic of logistics, the use of the word by transport companies is legitimate where you are dealing with certain types of haulage. Without getting too technical or digressing too far, logistics is the art or science (a bit of both really) of ensuring goods, equipment or personnel arrive where they are required, only when required and are fit to be used/take up their role on arrival. Originally a military concept, it has been applied to the shipment of critical items around the world using multi-modal transport, often through specialised hubs and can see an item in the course of its journey being transported by road air and water. There are specialists in areas from Formula One to oil rig equipment but the most well known true logistics companies are FedEx, DHL, UPS and TNT who, apart from transporting packages have worldwide contracts to move sensitive equipment and data for major corporations and governments in a way that ordinary post and parcel handling would not offer. Industry’s demand for continual production without the need to hold large stocks of components spawned the idea of “Just In Time Delivery” which created the need for much of the logistical planning that goes into haulage today. Even the delivery of greengrocery to your local supermarket from the point of origin in, say, Kenya or the Caribbean in a state where it is fresh, has a reasonable shelf life and can be consumed days after purchase, is far more complex today than just haulage from point A to point B.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/08/13 – 18:35
Once upon a time, when the universe was young, and a long lost language called English was spoken in the land, the term ‘logistics’ meant either a branch of mathematics, or the planned organisation of troops, armaments, supplies and transport for an advancing or retreating army. Transport, or as it is now seemingly forever to be known, ‘transportation’, is just one element in the complex package that constitutes logistics. The people that carry goods in vehicles from A to B are simply hauliers, whatever nonsense they choose to display on their lorries (though even these things are now to be called ‘trucks’). Taking up Brendan’s point, I think that the solution for mass travel must surely be the water on which a passenger carrying ferry or canal barge floats. In a world blighted by pretentious marketing piffle, the solution that we all need is a return to the language of Shakespeare and Doctor Johnson. I am not holding my breath.
Roger Cox
11/08/13 – 06:46
I always thought that TNT meant Tomorrow Not Today.
Paragon
12/08/13 – 19:23
Thanks Joe, I think you are right about transit – it flows much better than travel in the ‘strapline’ (now there’s another new word to conjure with!). Thank you too Phil for your comments as to the true meaning of logistics. As you state, the modern art of ‘just in time delivery’ is much more involved than traditional haulage, and there does appear to be a big difference between the two. However, the waters are muddied by the pretensions of some operators whose vehicles carry the ‘logistics’ title, when they should really be proudly displaying the word ‘haulage’ instead.
Brendan Smith
13/08/13 – 06:19
Brendan, you are correct about the pretensions of some hauliers. Strap line is hardly new. Originating in newspapers it describes a secondary headline or caption and Dickens, as a newspaper editor, certainly knew the term. It was adopted by the advertising industry in the early part of the 20th century.
Phil Blinkhorn
13/08/13 – 06:20
Phil, going back to your comment about the KSW’s platform doors, I think ECW may have been dabbling with improving the design at some point. Early KS/KSWs originally had the quarter bay ahead of the entrance panelled over, but on later models the quarter bay was glazed. In either case, with an open platform the design looked balanced as you say. However, with platform doors fitted and closed, if the bay was panelled, a ‘thick pillar’ effect resulted between the fourth bay and the first door glass. If the quarter bay was glazed, the result was the ‘three window’ effect you describe. The same thing affected the LD Lodekka when fitted with platform doors. However, both it must be admitted were still very handsome designs. In order to ensure perfect nearside balance on either model, I suppose the only answer would be to leave the platform doors open at all times!
Brendan Smith
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/08/13 – 14:35
A piece of totally useless trivia for you, Stephen, and nothing what so ever to do with the original subject. It would take far too long to list them all, but within historical boudaries of the City of London, you will find Squares and Alley’s, names ending in Lane – Side – Gate – Wall – Street Etc, and single words such as Barbican – Eastcheap – Poultry, but no ‘Roads’. However, with the boundary changes of 1994, part of Goswell Road in Islington became EC1 so technically it is now part part of the City, but it is not within The Square Mile.
Ronnie Hoye
16/08/13 – 18:31
Thanks Ronnie – I do totally useless trivia !
Stephen Ford
21/08/13 – 06:33
A London EC post code does not indicate that the place is in the City. Fifty odd years ago when I was at school there Goswell Road and nearby City Road had EC1 postal addresses. Incidentally the Tower of London has an EC3 post code but is not in the City.
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1951 Bristol KSW6B ECW L27/28R
KEL 728 is a Bristol KSW6B new to Hants & Dorset in 1951. The ECW body was of the L55R variety when new. After withdrawal from passenger duty in 1969, it became one of the driver training fleet, with various alterations including the fitting of a sliding door and the replacement of most seats by concrete blocks. This was to simulate ‘loaded’ condition. We see it still in Tilling green and cream but with NBC fleetname in Grosvenor Square during the lunch break one day in August 1975.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
24/05/16 – 07:05
Grosvenor Square where, Pete?
Chris Hebbron
24/05/16 – 09:01
Southampton! Shame cant see the registration of the coach behind. Wondered if it was H and D or Shamrock and Rambler.
David Rawsthorn
25/05/16 – 06:18
It was one of the ORU …G group, so H&D, but don’t ask me which one of the three!
Pete Davies
26/05/16 – 18:40
Living in Southampton as a schoolboy in the fifties, the Bristol engined Ks were familiar and friendly vehicles in the area. The KSW like 1285 was one of my favourite marques. The extra width, the style and finish of the interior trim had an edge (in my view) over other contemporary buses and maintained a brighter environment when compared to its successor, the Lodekka. This vehicle was the first of the lowbridge KSWs delivered to H & D and all fourteen were allocated for the bulk of their lives to Southampton or Fareham depots. In the final years most migrated to Bournemouth and Poole, where they still maintained an elegant presence in the ‘Pines Territory’. My final journey on this type was on 1294 in November 1970 on a service from Bournemouth to Wimborne. Happy days!
Peter Elliott
29/05/16 – 05:47
About 30 years ago a letter appeared in Buses Illustrated commiserating with the hapless drivers of Bristols and comparing their lot with that of those lucky folk who drove London buses. The writer suggested that you don’t so much drive a Bristol as wrestle with it and finish your shift in utter exhaustion. Well, he can never have driven a KSW, which has light, positive, bullet-straight steering, a light clutch, good progressive brakes, a gearbox less forgiving than some but still easy to get used to, a roomy cab with a good step and a firm handle to pull yourself up with, good visibility, reasonable level of engine noise, good stability… There must be something I’ve forgotten… As a teenage enthusiast I found the ubiquitous KSWs and LDs uninteresting but a short spell of driving for Thames Valley in 1968 taught me what superbly designed vehicles they were. What an indignity for KEL 728, having to carry concrete blocks around!
Ian Thompson
30/05/16 – 05:48
For my last 12 weeks RAF National Service (Jan-Mar 1959), I was posted to RAF Calshot, my mother living in Southsea. On Mondays, I’d take a trolleybus to Hilsea, a Southdown 45A which terminated at Fareham Bus Station, then the 77 H&D Bristol to Warsash service, then getting an air-sea rescue launch over Southampton Water to Calshot. The Bristol would have been in the yard all night and freezing cold, with frost inside the front windows needing to be scraped off! Arrival at our Calshot office necessitated laying the free-standing coke stove and getting it going before work started. It was noon before I’d really warmed up! The return journey on Fridays usually involved the Southdown 45 route which went all the way from Warsash to Southsea. So Fareham to Warsash was a shared route, with Southdown at its Westerly extremity at Warsash and Fareham being H&D’s Easterly extremity. Southdown usually put on PD2’s or Guy Arabs, but I seem to recall one Queen Mary, overkill for the route. But H&D had these KSW’s usually, which seemed quite civilised as I recall. It’s fair to say that these dozen trips on a Bristol bus constitute about a quarter of all rides I’ve ever taken on a Bristol in normal service!
Chris Hebbron
30/05/16 – 16:53
Fareham was not quite the easterly extremity of Hants & Dorset, Chris. During the three years I spent at Alverstoke (1949-52) my mother and I sometimes used to catch the Hants & Dorset service from Gosport (marginally farther east) to Lee-on-Solent or Tichfield and Southampton. The buses were Bristol K types back then, of course, probably K5Gs.
Roger Cox
30/05/16 – 16:54
As a very happy conductor and driver with Samuel Ledgard at Otley and Ilkley depots I regularly regretted that I would never drive a Bristol vehicle. However one morning I had to pinch myself as I reported to the garage to operate the 0807 duplicate from Otley to Leeds and back. Parked near the bus station with “Harrogate via Otley” on the destination blind was K6B KHY 746 (ex Bristol) – yes, it had suffered a front wheel puncture a few minutes earlier and had been replaced by one of our Otley vehicles. With fingers crossed I approached the output man for my bus to be told “You’ll have to take that 746 outside.” Well, what an utter delight the vehicle was in every way – the gears were like silk, the brakes smooth and superb, visibility great, and the Bristol AVW engine enabled it to ascend the two mile long A660 in fine style. When we got to Leeds the disgruntled and totally disinterested young conductor came to the cab and said “I don’t know what you’re getting excited about, its only a b***** bus.” So naturally I fully agree with everything that Ian Thompson says in favour of the model even though “mine” was slightly earlier and “thinner” – the pedigree was the same !!
Chris Youhill
31/05/16 – 06:24
Geography and popular opinions of places’ locations do contradict each other sometimes. Chris Hebbron comments on his trips to RAF Calshot. One might think that, being on the western side of Southampton Water, it is west of Southampton. Certainly, buses head westwards out of Southampton towards Totton, Marchwood, Hythe, Fawley and Calshot, but Calshot Castle is actually due south of the mouth of the Hamble, east of Southampton. Roger Cox mentions his time at Alverstoke which, although many of the present residents refuse to acknowledge it, is actually in Gosport and east of Fareham. A strange situation applies at Fareham, which used to have two signal boxes. ‘East box’, being nearer to Waterloo on the original line through Basingstoke and Winchester, was actually WEST of ‘West box’ which was further away from Waterloo. I have some American Railroad DVDs in my collection, with maps. The commentary mentions ‘compass west’ which is the actual direction of travel, and ‘timetable west’ which is the nominal direction. What fun!
Pete Davies
31/05/16 – 06:24
One summer in the mid to late ‘sixties I remember my Dad, a West Yorkshire driver, saying that he had performed a duplicate on the 84 Harrogate-York-Scarborough service. His trusty steed was an ‘SBW’ (Bristol LWL6B/ECW B39R) and I’d assumed he would have been disappointed at the prospect of having to drive such an ‘old’ bus, heading up towards it’s retirement, over such a distance. (What shameful thoughts Brendan, even for a early teenager!). Well Dad said much the same as Ian and Chris (Y) have done and relished the experience. I recall him saying how light the steering and clutch were, and that the gearbox combined with the Bristol AVW engine worked a treat. All in all an enjoyable day out by the sound of it. Just wish I’d been along for the ride.
Brendan Smith
31/05/16 – 09:03
Brendan – I can well appreciate your Dad’s delight with the SBW. Although as an Ilkley depot conductor I never drove one I consider the SBWs to be the very finest examples of the wonderful ECW postwar “L” variants. Not only were they supremely handsome and “tidy”, but within there could never have been anything finer – wide gangways, useful luggage racks, excellent stairs and sliding doors, good visibility, and easy passenger flow even with standing customers – that barmy over the top trendy term means passengers, customers patronise shops !! At Ilkley we had EB2/3 (31 seat luxury), SGL 14 (slim) and SBW 17/26/33.
Chris Youhill
01/06/16 – 06:53
Agreed Chris Y! A colleague used to define the difference this way (in connection with the railway industry): Passengers travel; Customers merely pay.
Stephen Ford
02/06/16 – 06:50
Chris and Stephen, bus drivers may be told by their employers to see passengers as ‘customers’ nowadays in order to promote real ‘customer service’. However, how many times do we see these same ‘customers’ treated with disdain, not by the drivers, but by the employers who cover the windows with Contravision, or vinyl promotional stickers and overlays, so that the allegedly all-important ‘customers’ cannot see out? ‘First still seems to be Worst’ in this regard, but sadly there are others out there. Thomas Tilling will be turning in his grave – if not already spinning like a starter motor.
Brendan Smith
04/06/16 – 06:46
Absolutely spot on Brendan. As is widely known, I ‘m in total despair these days at all the marketing, route branding, swooping “playschool” liveries etc – 99% plus of which goes right over the heads of the travelling public or simply understandably confuses them, and costs unimaginable amounts of money When will operators realise that all the Public want is a clean smart bus at the right time at a sensible fare. Now, where did I put that tin helmet?? I’m sure I got it back from refurbishment not long ago !!
Chris Youhill
04/06/16 – 06:47
Thx, Roger, for making me aware of back-door H&D route to Gosport. I confess that on the few times I used to go over to Gosport, I never saw saw an H&D bus/bus stop to raise my curiosity!
Chris Hebbron
05/06/16 – 07:10
Hants & Dorset did have a presence in Gosport, though. On the occasions when I travelled across the water (or took the long way round via Fareham), there was often an H&D Bristol K lurking against a wall behind the Provincial line up at the bus stands. I don’t recall if it displayed any route number or destination, but my impression at the time was that it was parked up for later use. As the Provincial fleet had my stronger interest, I didn’t take so much notice of it! I don’t know whether when it came to service, it drew up on one of the Provincial stands, or whether it went somewhere else to begin it’s journey.
Michael Hampton
07/06/16 – 07:01
H&D ran several services to Gosport. The 70 and 93 ran from Southampton, each one hourly. The 70 was converted to OPO and became limited stop as X70 around the time the last REs (XLJ725/6K) were delivered. As far as I recall there were other local services, including an indirect service from Fareham.
Nigel Frampton
08/06/16 – 06:06
The construction for an embryonic new resort (intended to rival Bournemouth) given the supposedly prestigious name of Lee-on-the-Solent began in 1885 and proceeded apace. A pier was completed in 1888 and a light railway line (maximum permitted speed – 25 mph) was built in 1894 to connect with the Gosport/Stokes Bay main line at Fort Brockhurst on the western fringe of Gosport. In 1910 Provincial Tramways began operating connecting services with its tram operations from Bury Cross and Brockhurst into Lee, but these stopped during the First World War. (The railway services to Stokes Bay and the Isle of Wight also ceased in 1915, never to resume). The overambitious original scheme for Lee-on-the-Solent was never realised and public transport revenues on bus and rail services were poor. Provincial lost interest in Lee as a traffic objective and the railway, too, entered a period of terminal decline. It was Hants & Dorset who stepped in with viable bus links through Lee to Gosport and Southampton, and I understand that these still exist, though the vehicles when I last travelled on the route were attired in the absurd Barbie apparel.
Roger Cox
09/06/16 – 16:56
Hants & Dorset had an outstation at Gosport – in the early post-war period at Little Beach Road, and from the mid 1950s until early 1970s in Harbour Road (just off the A32 Mumby Road, north of the High Street), where there was a small waiting room as well as parking space. There were ‘local’ services to Hill Head, Lee-on-Solent, Heathfield and HMS Aerial, together with Gosport to Fareham via Rowner (79) and 3 routes from Gosport to Southampton 70 and 93 (both via Lee-on-Solent and Bursledon) and 76 (via Fareham and Botley). Hants and Doret had acquired the operations of independent, Tutt, in 1924 to which were others were – which formed the basis of the H&D services in the Gosport area.
Peter Delaney
18/06/16 – 06:08
Here is a picture of another KSW6B of similar vintage to KEL 728, but operated by the neighbouring company of Thames Valley. GJB 275, fleet no. 637, was also a 1951 vehicle, but differed in being equipped with a “coach” CL27/26RD body with platform doors. Thames Valley had nine of these buses for the Reading-London service “B”, though, because the route was covered by Green Line 704 and 705 between London and Slough, pick up and set down restrictions applied over that section. All the early production KSWs had either the Gardner 5LW or the alternative Bristol AVW of 8.1 litres supposedly developing the magic figure of 100 bhp that was often optimistically claimed by manufacturers in the early post war period – Leyland, Crossley and Daimler were others, together with Dennis, though the Guildford claim was accurate. The AVW was a basically sound dry liner engine manufactured also in horizontal form, unlike the troublesome wet liner BVW 8.9 litre design that succeeded it. The KSW6G did not become available until 1952 with the “K” version of the 6LW yielding a genuine 112 bhp. Were there initially some behind the scenes pressures on Tilling Group companies to accept the Bristol six cylinder engine to reduce production costs and free the manufacturer to some extent from the constraints of Gardner supplies? The Thames Valley “coach” KSWs ran on the “B” service for many years, latterly as relief vehicles, and GJB 275 is pictured in Victoria Coach Station on such duties in the summer of 1960. One wonders how a lowbridge bus of this type would be received by the “discerning customers” on such a lengthy route today, though I, for one, would jump at the opportunity.
Roger Cox
21/12/16 – 06:32
I remember taking a bus similar to this model from Romsey to Southampton on Route number 63. In the late 1960s, all the buses that ran to and from Romsey used to terminate or start their routes actually from Romsey Town Centre, this was before the Romsey bus station was even built, the sight formally having been occupied by the old Jam factory. I can remember that there were several routes operated by Hants and Dorset, and one of these was shared with Wilts and Dorset. Whilst single decker’s ran the routs 60 Braishfield to Southampton ( via Romsey, Ower, Totton, Millbrook. ) Route 66 Romsey to Winchester and then back and then ran Romsey to Salisbury via West Wellow, Shootash. This service was the shared route as you either got a Hants & Dorset or Wilts & Dorset bus in either direction. The 65 went to Eastleigh via North Badesley, and the original Castle Lane. The 65 was run by both single and double deck vehicles. The number 61, 62, 63 all ran Romsey to Southampton. One via Upton Crescent Rownhams and Nursling, Shirley and Southampton. 62 Romsey to North Baddesley Rownhams Lane, Horns Inn Nursling, Shirley, Southampton and the 63 Romsey North Baddesley, Chilworth, Inner Avenue, thence into Southampton. The 64 route ran Shootash and also served a number of the local villages, this was always a single deck service. Hants and Dorset and Wilts and Dorset drivers were some real characters, very friendly and helpful. I remember two particular drivers who did long service on some of these routes. Geoff Whitfield being one of these people. There was also a older chap called Stan. Didn’t ever know his last name, and it wasn’t Butler! but he was a character that made travelling on these routes a pleasure, and a lot of fun. Pity we don’t have these routes now.
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1962 Bristol MW6G ECW C39F
This Bristol MW with, as it was called then, the “New Look” design was new to Hants & Dorset as their fleet number 887 in June 1962. In 1963 the batch (882 – 887) were down seated to C30F for extended tours, but reverted to C39F in 1968. In the first view, she has been downgraded to local bus work, as DP41F and is in special livery for the RED FUNNEL FERRIES contract and is seen at Southampton Central Station in April 1974. Her sister, 7122 LJ, was in BRITISH RAIL SEASPEED livery at the same time, but my view of the sister is not suitable for publication.
Copyright Pete Davies
In the second view of 7123 LJ, the relegation to service bus duty is complete, having been repainted in NBC poppy red livery with white stripe in 1975. She’s in the yard of Southampton depot in January 1976. In both views, she has the fleet number 1833 but for a brief time in 1971 she had the fleet number 1001.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
14/12/12 – 07:21
Never thought NBC poppy red could be an improvement on another livery but…..
Eric Bawden
14/12/12 – 07:22
When I photographed sister vehicle 1831 in 1973 on local service at Winchester, she was still fitted with high back seats. I’m amused by the fact that in the upper view, 1833 retains wheel trims, but has been relegated to bus seating.
Alan Murray-Rust
14/12/12 – 08:50
Indeed, Eric! I have vague memories that Southern Vectis had a vehicle in similar livery, for the Cowes to Newport element of this service, though I never photographed it. The service connected with the express trains from Waterloo and, in later years, had the service number 91, to match the train headcode! Different people have operated the link over the years, including Marchwood Motorways (using a Ford with Duple coach body and special livery) and Southampton Citybus (both before and after they sold out to First) Current operation is called “City Link” and the Unilink version of Solent Blue Line runs it.
Pete Davies
14/12/12 – 10:44
I like to think that even me, colour-blind, would not have come up with such a hideous range of colours and patterns as the poor suffering bus has in the top photo. Sun glasses might have helped! I always liked the ‘New Look’.
Chris Hebbron
14/12/12 – 16:26
Just a different way of applying poppy and white, Mr H!!!
Pete Davies
15/12/12 – 12:00
Mansfield District had some of these type vehicles, good looking coaches when new, however, the downgrade to DP services saw the addition of the linen box grafted onto the front dome, it spoilt ’em though at least Mansfield fully removed the original two boxes above the headlights.
Berisford Jones
15/12/12 – 14:32
Berisford, I’m not sure what happened to this batch with Hants & Dorset, but most of the H&D coaches just had the box, illuminated, with the lettering HANTS & DORSET under the driver and HOLIDAY TOURS in the other one. Some of the RE coaches, down to NBC DP livery, had the HOLI removed. Yes, removal of the box would probably have made the outline better!
Pete Davies
15/12/12 – 16:21
I like the design of these vehicles – I don’t like the destination box. For comparison take a look at a similar Royal Blue coach at this link which doesn’t have such a box
Ken Jones
16/12/12 – 11:00
Yes, Ken, same here! So far as I know, Royal Blue coaches weren’t downgraded to DP or bus work, so they never needed that box in the dome.
Pete Davies
16/12/12 – 12:14
United had some of these with a different front panel and destination layout. Drab olive green and cream sounds hideous for a coach livery, but anyone who has ever seen one of United’s coaches will tell you, it works, and these were no exception.
Ronnie Hoye
16/12/12 – 14:44
Although some of the Royal Blue MW vehicles like EDV 502D had Western National branding instead of Royal Blue they never [thank goodness] received these horrible destination boxes. There’s a picture at this link showing ENOC with an equally horrible destination box
Ken Jones
16/12/12 – 17:31
The later vehicles with the deeper windscreens, such as the one in the link Ken posted never looked right to my eyes and I agree Ken, that thin profile linen display box looks very wrong. Not one of ECW’s best at all.
Berisford Jones
17/12/12 – 08:09
You are spot-on with your comments about the United olive green and cream livery Ronnie. It doesn’t sound great on paper, but ‘in the metal’ it had a touch of class. United’s Plaxton-bodied Bristol REMHs brought in a simpler more up to date style later on, yet they still looked stunning. They even retained the scroll-type fleet names.
Brendan Smith
17/12/12 – 13:04
Brendan, going off the subject slightly, I know a couple of United L’s have survived into preservation ‘I believe one is in Durham District livery’ but do you know of any DP versions in the reverse livery?
Ronnie Hoye
17/12/12 – 16:39
The full list of Bristol L survivors can be found at www.bristolsu.co.uk/ but I don’t think there is an United vehicle in reverse livery. Crosville KFM 893 is in reversed livery. HHN 202 is preserved in Durham District livery as seen at www.sct61.org.uk/
Ken Jones
19/12/12 – 07:25
I noted above that I had vague memories of a Southern Vectis vehicle in the same special livery. I’ve found it, in a bought slide from Omnicolour. If you think this is bad, just consider a Bristol FS (VDL 844 to be precise!) then go and lie down in a darkened room until you recover.
Pete Davies
19/12/12 – 13:42
On the same link Ken Jones mentions above, you will find a picture of one of these ‘7014 HN’ plus one or two other examples of United coaches, in particular is a 1964 Leyland Loepard L2 with Plaxton Panorama body, it became part of United’s fleet when they acquired Wilkinson of Spennymoor in 1968, but they all prove the point that quiet restraint is often more dignified than ‘flash and brash’
Ronnie Hoye
20/12/12 – 07:54
Ronnie, sorry but I don’t know if there is a United Bristol L preserved in DP livery. The only ones I’m familiar with are in bus livery – HHN 202 (Durham District green) and two red LS – rear entrance LHN 823 and front entrance LHN 860. The latter vehicle made a touching appearance at Charlie Bullock’s funeral in Scarborough in August, complementing Charlie’s United K5G towing wagon FHN 923, which provided his ‘personal transport’ for the proceedings.
Brendan Smith
20/12/12 – 09:45
Ronnie, I’ve just been reading through comments related to United Auto Bristol LL6B NHN 128 on this splendid website, which should interest you. Present owner David Hudson comments that this vehicle is awaiting restoration following fire damage. He also states that the vehicle was converted to DP configuration in 1953, so maybe you could yet see a United L-type in reversed livery.
Brendan Smith
20/12/12 – 16:04
Thanks for that, Brendan, if NHN 128 were to be restored as a DP that ‘length and engine size apart’ would that make a full full set of L’s as far as United are concerned? A front and rear entrance in red, a reverse livery DP and a Green Durham District, or did D/D have DP’s as well?
