Ellen Smith Tours – Leyland Leopard – CDK 448C

Ellen Smith Tours - Leyland Leopard - CDK 448C
CDK 448C_2

Ellen Smith’s Tours (Rochdale)
1965
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R
Harrington C49F

CDK 448C is quite clearly a 1965 Leyland Leopard with Harrington body, as seen in the first view. She is of the PSU3/3R variety although some sources have her as a PSU3/3RT, while the seating is of the C49F layout. She is seen at the Harrington Event at Amberley on 3 June 2012. There has been some discussion in these pages about the resemblance of the leaping cat badge seen in the second view to the Royal Tiger badge on the front of Leyland’s product. Indeed, the company history, as set out by Eric Ogden, comments thus:
“The striking Leaping Tiger crest applied to the sides of the coaches, first in a triangle and then in a circle, appeared in the early 1930s on the Leyland Tigers. It is said that the first hand-painted image was copied from a cigarette card. This skilful freehand painting was carried out by Jack Mills who was trained as a professional painter. The design was used by Leyland as the badge for the Royal Tiger coach from 1949. The same design was used as the sign for the Royal Tiger pub in Leyland.”
The device faces forward on both sides, so Leyland must have used that on the offside of the Ellen Smith vehicles.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


10/01/16 – 10:54

CDK 448C_3

Thanks to Pete Davies for his posting. I had wondered about the side logo since taking a few shots of this splendid vehicle at the Bus Meet-Bewdley 2013. I would be very interested in future posts relating to its history.

Nigel Edwards


11/01/16 – 06:51

What a great coach of the era, they were far better built and did not rattle in later life.

Mike


11/01/16 – 09:24

Thank you, Nigel and Mike. I’ve wondered at intervals over the years which were the better-built vehicles, Duple, Harrington or Plaxton. Of course, I know that will provoke some comment on here!!!!!

Pete Davies


11/01/16 – 13:39

There were a couple of glimpses of an Ellen Smith coach at the end of Endeavour last night. Is this the only one in livery? And would it have worked in the Oxford area in period?

John Lomas


11/01/16 – 13:40

This lovely coach appeared towards the end of an episode of ‘Endeavour’ on ITV Sunday 10 January 2015.
Note that in the photograph the coach carries an ‘On hire to Yelloway’ window label. I have seen various photographs of the coach with this addition. However, it is perhaps the strangest item in respect of 1960s/1970s authenticity one can have on an Ellen Smith’s coach. Both Ellen Smith and Yelloway heralded from the Lancashire town of Rochdale and were great competitors. Hubert Allen and Harry Smith got together to discuss matters of mutual benefit or business interest but that was the extent of it. During my time at Yelloway in the late 1960s/early 1970s there was never any inter-hiring as far as I can recall. They did, in later years, participate in a joint service to Morecambe.
I recall on a number of occasions when I worked at Yelloway being sent over to Newgate to furtively spy on Ellen’s excursion departures see if their loadings looked better than ours. What was a little irritating to me as I did my absolute best at playing an undercover spy was that most of the passengers recognised me and gave me a wave as they went by!

David Slater


11/01/16 – 13:40

Pete. You have to factor in chassis as well. Flexing chassis can distort even the best built body. I have a Harrington on a PS1 which while sumptuous is quite a rattlebox yet my friend has same body on a PS2 and it is rock solid

Roger Burdett


11/01/16 – 16:03

Even Mrs B noticed the coach on the TV last night. Whilst an excursion may have taken one of Smith’s coaches into Morse territory, the use of the coach in the context of the programme’s plot did not fit.
A shame really as the previous week the use of two preserved Oxford double deckers was very much in context.

Phil Blinkhorn


11/01/16 – 16:05

You noticed, David! I wondered who would be first. I thought it a bit of an oddity when I saw the sticker. I can’t tell from Nigel’s view whether it appears there or not.
Interesting comment, Roger! I’d have thought there might be a difference between, say, AEC and Guy affecting the way the body moved or didn’t, but I wouldn’t have expected it between models from the same line. Ah well, We live and learn!

Pete Davies


11/01/16 – 16:06

For me Pete, all through my driving days I aspired to one day having charge of a Harrington, be it AEC or Leyland no matter! It never happened . .
I agree with Roger, the rattles depend a great deal on Chassis, a Duple on a R226 SO different to an AEC or Leyland. My personal pet hate was a Yeates – always seemed to leak around the myriad rubber window seals.

Nigel Edwards


12/01/16 – 05:51

I doubt that Ellen Smith vehicles would have visited the Oxford area on any regular basis as most of their operations were in the north west. They did a good deal of business in the winter months running supporter’s coaches for the away games of Rochdale Hornets. They also provided the team coach, complete with distinctive headboard for many years. Many’s the trip I made across Lancashire and Yorkshire to far flung destinations such as Dewsbury, Batley, Leigh, Widnes and numerous other rugby league playing towns. It was usually on one of the earlier Cavalier bodied 36ft Leopards. The fleet was always immaculately turned out and the fares were always very reasonable. A truly quality operation.

Philip Halstead


12/01/16 – 08:22

I made a day trip with Ellen Smith from Rochdale to the 1974 Commercial Motor Show at Earl’s Court. The transport was a Plaxton Panorama Elite-bodied Leyland Leopard. The main thing I remember is the rather low back seats which were a bit of a surprise for such a long trip, although they were more than bus seats.

David Beilby


20/01/16 – 09:21

The latest episode of Endevour had a Burlingham Seagull coach in a red and blue livery dropping a character off in central Oxford. Sadly it was too far away to see what it was.

Chris Hough


20/01/16 – 17:13

The Seagull was the preserved Whittles of Kidderminster Seagull on a Leyland Tiger Cub chassis owned by Bernard Rodgers of Bewdley. His standard of presentation is always top class and it could be argued looked too good for the role of delivering passengers back from holidays.

Roger Burdett

Ribble – Leyland Leopard – PCK 618 – 1036

Ribble - Leyland Leopard - PCK 618 - 1036

Ribble Motor Services
1961
Leyland Leopard L2T
Harrington Cavalier C32F

This Leyland Leopard L2 with Harrington Cavalier C32F body was new to Ribble in 1961. The low seating capacity means it was one of the touring fleet. I do have a query about the chassis designation, because some of my sources mention a twin-speed rear axle, meaning it would be L2T. Any thoughts, please, folks? The coach is seen at the Harrington event at Amberley on 3 June 2012.

Ribble - Leyland Leopard - PCK 618 - 1036

Here we have an interior view of the vehicle which was taken courtesy of the owner.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


24/03/16 – 05:58

Primrose Valley Coaches of Filey had PCK 616. I enjoyed driving it and its two speed axle, and only 32 luxury seats.

Ken Wragg


24/03/16 – 17:03

I became misty eyed looking at this photo as an avid admirer of Harrington’s Cavalier and Grenadier designs and there is a tantalising glimpse of one of Southdown’s near identical extended tour Leopards alongside, these were definitely L2Ts.The main differences were the 27 reclining seats in 2+1 layout and the glazed cove panels and they too were a delight to drive although I only drove them after they were up seated for normal coach duties. My drooling at least won’t show on an e-mail.

Diesel Dave


25/03/16 – 14:22

Thank you, Dave and Ken, for confirming the L2T version. Dave, the adjacent Southdown was 2722 CD and the blue and cream one parked back-to-back with PCK 618 was Hawkey’s 100 VRL. I have views of both, if you’d like me to forward via Peter.

Pete Davies


26/03/16 – 05:18

PMT acquired three of this batch in 1972 as Roadliner replacements, PCK601, 602 and 605. These were C41F as acquired. They did four seasons with PMT before withdrawal in 1976. I remember them as very sound, reliable coaches. Does anyone have photos of them in PMT service?

Mr Anon


26/03/16 – 05:19

Pete, Like Diesel Dave I tend to glaze over and dribble when a Harrington appears . . they truly are icons of an age when these machines shouted style and quality, sadly missed. I for one would appreciate a peek at your shots of 2722 CD and 100 VRL.

Nigel Edwards


26/03/16 – 16:54

Here is PCK on coaching duties with PMT www.flickr.com/photos/

Stephen Bloomfield


27/03/16 – 07:33

2722 CD
100 VRL
100 VRL_2

Nigel Edwards comments that he would like to see views of 2722 CD and  100 VRL.

Pete Davies


27/03/16 – 09:58

These photos only reinforce my long-held view that Harrington’s Cavalier/Grenadier bodies seemed to look stylish in virtually ANY livery!

Chris Hebbron


27/03/16 – 17:39

Many thanks to Pete Davies for posting the three extra photos of 2722 CD and 100 VRL as looking at them made me all misty eyed and nostalgic and quite weak at the knees.
It is also good to see 2722 CD in the original livery with the cream roof unfortunately this only lasted 2 or 3 years before being painted green this was long before it was reseated as it is now. The armchair reclining seats from these and the later 1800-44 Leopard PSU3’s were distributed to the various staff canteens and rest rooms for the benefit of drivers numb parts and were much appreciated.

Diesel Dave

Scarlet Coaches – Leyland Comet – MYA 590

Scarlet Coaches - Leyland Comet - MYA 590

Scarlet Coaches (Minehead)
1950
Leyland Comet CPP1
Harrington C29F

Here we have another wonderful example of how a coat of paint can make such a difference to the way almost anything can appear. MYA 590 is a Leyland Comet CPP1 with Harrington C29F body. In the first view, it is in the livery of Scarlet Coaches of Minehead, and it is in the Southsea rally on 17 June 1984.

Scarlet Coaches - Leyland Comet - MYA 590

In this second view, it has been repainted blue and cream to star alongside Joan Hickson in the ‘Miss Marple’ film, Nemesis. This view was captured at Netley on 12 July 1987.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


09/03/17 – 07:02

I seem to remember that, during the 1950s, the livery change between the top colour and the lower was achieved by a ‘blend’ of the two colours down the rear corner panels.
This was fashionable at the time, although must have been incredibly difficult to achieve. Virtually impossible to achieve with brush painting, so presumably the gradual change from the light colour to the dark might have been a way of showing off the ‘new spray painting’ technique.
It’s not a feature I have seen on any currently preserved coaches, but this picture of the unnatural hard line between the two colours has sparked the memory of this old style.
Anybody else remember it?

Petras409


10/03/17 – 17:39

Can anyone suggest why, given Leyland’s good name, the Comet was not more popular? Did the Tiger Cub sweep it away?

Ian Thompson


11/03/17 – 07:23

Pure guesswork on my part Ian. The Comet was a very successful commercial vehicle chassis, with production continuing through the forward control LAD and ergomatic cabs in both rigid and artic unit form. However, it gave coach bodybuilders less design scope, and lower seating capacity than the under floor chassis of a Royal Tiger or Tiger Cub

Ronnie Hoye


12/03/17 – 07:45

Thanks, folks!

Pete Davies


12/03/17 – 07:46

The Comet wasn’t in the same market as the underfloor-engined chassis. As a lightweight with a seating capacity probably limited to 32, it was competing with the Bedford OB and Albion Victor. It’s likely to have been more expensive than both, and didn’t really offer anything extra.

Peter Williamson


13/03/17 – 16:32

Later passenger variants of the Comet were forward control but aimed primarily for export. There was a Duple bodied ECPO12/2T in preservation once, this was one of a handful sold on the home market, the Albion Victor and the SB, particularly with a Leyland Engine, not to mention the Ford and Commer alternatives made it a non-starter over here although it was very popular in New Zealand with the Bedford SB8 and SB13 known as the “Poor Man’s Comet”.

Stephen Allcroft


16/08/17 – 07:10

MLL 803

With regard to the piece by Roger Cox, a photo showing Comet OPB 536 next to Wimbledon Coaches or Allco’s RF 266 (MLL 803) taken at Cobham Bus Museum has recently appeared on my son Simon’s Facebook page, but I can find no further mention of it in preservation, unless anyone knows better!

Dave Kriesler


11/02/18 – 06:28

Thanks for the picture of MYA 590. It used to be parked in the open near the sea front in Minehead between tours, and must have been the best polished commercial vehicle I have ever seen. You could always see your face in it. The owner must have spent every night polishing, because I never saw any work being done on it during the day. Glad it ended up making popular films – it really deserved to be seen, even if in different livery.
Scarlets was a small company with usually only one bus – as far as I know, except when one was replaced and they ran two – perhaps just for a summer season. My brother suggests that in 1982-83 the Royal Veterinary College used a Scarlet bus which sounds very like MYA 590 to transport a student running team to Holland (in both years).

Sorry to go on, but your page has got me going. I have been reminded that Scarlet Pimpernel of Minehead and Blue coaches of Porlock (both with a single vehicle, it seems) merged in 1954, and continued until about 1970. Both Vehicles are now in Coventry, MYA 590 in Pimpernel livery and its stable mate (JYC 855) in Scarlet and Blue. (latest picture/record I have found is 2017 (of JYC)) With a 20 year career of summer day tripping over Exmoor (including the famous Countisbury Hill into Lynmouth) and winter theatre trips to Bristol, Bath and Weston Super Mare etc, shows the quality of these vehicles especially as there was no back up if one broke down.They still seem to make regular trips down to the London Bus Museums open day at Brooklands in April, possibly under their own steam?

Huw Jones


11/02/18 – 08:40

It is just JYC that is based in Coventry MYA being in Surrey I think.
There is another Scarlet Motors Harrington on an AEC chassis complete in Bromsgrove but the owner has not taken it out for several years.
There is a Blue Motors Harrington Bodied Cheetah based in Sussex.
MYA+JYC last got together in 2015 or 2016 at Brooklands in their Harrington/Weymann anniversary get together.
JYC is on the road every two years and 2018 is an on the road year. Only confirmed appearance is in the Oct Isle of Wight Beer & Buses Weekend.

Roger Burdett


05/01/19 – 06:42

I have a few photos of the AEC Roger when for a short period it was owned by Howard Homer. Unfortunately the lighting wasn’t very good as it was undercover, this would have been in the 90s.

William Parker

Blue Motors – Leyland Cheetah – EYA 923

Blue Motors - Leyland Cheetah - EYA 923
Blue Motors - Leyland Cheetah - EYA 923

Blue Motors
1939
Leyland Cheetah LZ5
Harrington C31F

EYA 923 was new in 1939. She is a Leyland Cheetah LZ5, with Harrington C31F body, complete with the tailfin, and we see her at Amberley during the Harrington Gathering on 3 June 2012. Some confusion creeps in about her origins, as I have seen mentions in different places of Blue Motors of Minehead, Blue Motors of Porlock, and others, but the rear view of this magnificent vehicle should settle that!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


09/11/15 – 06:52

Harringtons were one of those coachbuilders who produced bodywork with a curved waistrail which fell away sharply towards the rear end, as amply demonstrated here. Am I correct in thinking I’ve read somewhere that one of the functions of the dorsal fin, if not it’s main purpose, was to provide a little extra headroom for passengers who wished to access the rear seats?

Chris Barker


09/11/15 – 08:54

You may be right, Chris, and thank you for your comment. My understanding has always been that it was associated with ventilation.

Pete Davies


10/11/15 – 07:38

Yes, that is my understanding too.. Not apparent here, it widens out as it joins the roofline providing space for a head! Ventilation is a secondary function. Porlock Weir, Blue Motors base, is just outside Minehead, so it would appear that Minehead, out of which excursions were operated aids those without detailed geographical knowledge! Unusually there is no phone no, but when the coach first entered service, there weren’t many phones . . .

Philip Lamb


10/11/15 – 07:39

Thomas Harrington applied for a patent on 5th November 1935, granted as 461026 in February 1937, for which the preamble said “It is usual nowadays to streamline motor coaches and one result of this is that difficulties are experienced in providing sufficient headroom along the central gangway, and an even more important consideration is the provision of adequate ventilation of motor road coaches which presents its special difficulties. The object of our inventor is to provide a motor coach of pleasing appearance which will also have more adequate ventilation and improved headroom and which will moreover lead itself to more effective internal lighting”.
The detailed specification went on describe how this was accomplished, and the diagram shows the familiar dorsal fin. So, Chris and Peter are both right !!

Peter Delaney


10/11/15 – 07:40

Those louvers would create a low pressure area thus drawing the stale air out from the back of the coach with fresh air entering from further forward (open windows or vents)

John Lomas


10/11/15 – 07:40

The Harrington Dorsal Fin was patented as a ventilation device but it also added headroom in mid gangway on designs such as this one. Nice to see it in such good condition.

Stephen Allcroft


10/11/15 – 15:39

I wonder just how suitable the Lynx chassis was for coach operations, normally well-filled with passengers, especially in the challenging byeways of North Devon. The TS8 would surely have been a better choice.

Chris Hebbron


11/11/15 – 07:17

Chris, various Bedfords and Fords (and other “lightweight” models) were the choice of many independent (and some “combine”) tour operators in later years. No doubt tour coaches were subject to less “stresses-and-strains” as they didn’t have to stop/start as frequently as service buses, nor were they subject to such prolonged “hammering” as express coaches. True, a Tiger might have romped up the Devon hills quicker – but is that what the punters would have paid their money for? And no doubt a Cheetah cost less up-front than a Tiger, and so could be replaced earlier in its life.

Philip Rushworth


11/11/15 – 16:27

With reference to what Chris and Philip were saying the worry for me would be going _down_ the Devon hills in a Cheetah. However it was fairly successful as a lightweight full-size coach within its limits, much more so than the AEC Regal II.

Stephen Allcroft


13/11/15 – 06:31

My chief fear would be to be going down the Devon hills pursued by a Cheetah…..

Rob McCaffery


13/11/15 – 13:29

Rob’s comment reminds me of the look on the face of one of the St Andrew’s Ambulance crew on the Sunday of Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Trust’s open weekend when I said I had to run as I had a Western Leopard to catch.

Stephen Allcroft


16/11/15 – 05:32

It is worth noting that the term “observation Coach” painted on the rear display of EYA 923 refers to another Harrington patented feature – a floor-line rising in steps towards the rear of the vehicle allowing passengers improved vision over the heads of those in forward seats. All coachwork styles with this feature were officially called called Observation Coach, while the style illustrated tended to be called a “Torpedo” to differentiate it from others. This attractive swooping waist rail design was not the most numerous of the immediate pre-war Harrington production and it strikes me was probably lighter, for although it was available on heavyweight chassis such as the AEC Regal, was most likely to be found on lighter ones, such as Leyland Cheetahs and Cubs.

Nick Webster


14/08/16 – 06:04

Blue Motors HQ and main garage was in North Road at Minehead, under what is now a block of flats. A small sub-depot existed at Porlock Weir, some 8 miles from Minehead and this building (which still stands) was capable of holding two of their vehicles. For a long period Blue Motors operated the Porlock Weir – Porlock – Minehead bus service hence the out-station.

Chris


16/01/19 – 07:33

I was put on a coach as a young lad with a tail-fin… at ‘The Bakers Arms’ Stratford in East London in the early fifties.
I don’t know where the Journey began but it stopped at the Bakers Arms above…then in Saffron Walden in Essex and I guess finished in Haverhill Suffolk.
I’m wondering if any other manufacture made a coach with a tail-fin as I always had the impression it was a Bedford coach.
Also have to say I think I thought it quite disappointing inside, not modern at all, also I’m sure the clock inside was Art Deco!! only a kids impression as it was about 67 years ago.

Ken Bradley


18/01/19 – 06:35

Looking at the Harrington Body numbers I can find no Dorsal Fins with a Bedford Chassis. They appear to be Leyland AEC Foden and Commer.

Roger Burdett

East Kent – Ford Thames 570E – TJG 440

East Kent - Ford Thames 570E - TJG 440

East Kent Road Car Co Ltd
1960
Ford Thames 570E
Harrington Crusader Mk1 C41F

East Kent Road Car Co Ltd. bought this smart unique vehicle into the fleet at the start of the 1960’s, this was a common sight with the coach touring fleets around the country but for East Kent, this was a one off. A Ford Thames Trader 570E #510E34629 with Harrington #2147 C41F body was new in January 1960 to supplement and update its excursion fleet (1xBedford OB; OKE 470 & 2x Bedford SB; GFN 600/1) on the Isle of Thanet, but this work began to wain and TJG 440 found itself regularly working the express runs to London. This vehicle was an elegant looking coach and stood out against the regular “boxlike” London express vehicles of the TFN & WFN batches which East Kent used at the time. This view taken in the works section at the back of Westwood depot, in pristine condition and ready for another excursion around the countryside depicted in “The Darling Buds of May”, the Garden of England.
What other rare, unusual or odd looking pictures of PSV’s do you have out there, I look forward to seeing some more very special photos.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ron Mesure


26/01/15 – 06:31

This is certainly an interesting variation, Ron, of the ‘normal’ Cavalier body. I’ve never seen one like this, with a gentle slope forward of the emergency door.

Chris Hebbron


03/09/15 – 07:09

Thanks, lovely to see another old picture of my bus!

Steve


05/09/15 – 07:08

I’ve looked back at my records and have found that I saw this coach at Walton on the Naze on August 28th 1975 while it was with Viceroy but sadly I didn’t take a photo. Please don’t tell me that was forty years ago because that would make me feel very old.

Nigel Turner


01/12/19 – 07:39

I am really pleased to find out that this fine old bus still exists! She features in several East Kent books I have. What is her current state of preservation, and will she be back on the road in the future? I’m just an East Kent bus fan, and old vehicle enthusiast.

Robbie Robson

Southdown – Dennis Falcon – FUF 181 – 181

FUF 181

Southdown Motor Services
1939
Dennis Falcon P4
Harrington B30C

In 1938, Dennis replaced its multiplicity of of small buses for lightly trafficked routes – Dart, Pike, Arrow Minor, Ace and Mace – with one model, the Falcon. This was offered with normal or forward control, the engine options being Dennis 3.77 side valve petrol, or Gardner 4LK or Perkins P6 diesel. In 1938 Southdown took over the Worthing Tramocar business and began replacing the original Shelvoke and Drewry Freighters, at first with new Freighters. More about the Tramocar business may be found on OBP here:- //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=19218 
In April/May 1939 Southdown moved towards conventional buses for the Tramocar services, and purchased FUF 180/1, fleet nos. 80/1, two forward control Dennis Falcon P4s with Harrington B30C bodies offering easy access to the elderly clientele of Worthing. A third similar chassis, JUF 82, no. 82, but with Dennis B30R bodywork, arrived later that year in December after war had broken out, by which time only about 50 Falcons in total had been been produced by Dennis. In 1949 Southdown again turned to the lightweight Falcon P4, buying a further nine with Dennis B30R bodies, JUF 83-91 with matching fleet nos., for its service between Havant and Hayling Island which crossed a frail, elderly wooden bridge over the Langstone Channel built in 1824, on which a toll applied. Even then the bus went over tentatively and unladen, the passengers having to alight and walk across to rejoin it on the far side. The two ex Tramocar Falcons were transferred to the Hayling Island service to complement the ten later arrivals. The Langstone Bridge was replaced by a new structure in 1956, but the crossing toll remained until 1960. None of the Dennis bodied Falcons seems to have survived, but Harrington bodied FUF 181 of 1939 was once extant on the preservation scene. It is seen above at Brighton on the HCVC Rally in May 1970. Currently it is recorded as undergoing further restorative work. The prominent starting handles on all the Southdown Falcons suggests that they were powered by the robust 3.77 litre side valve petrol engine rather than the Gardner 4LK, but confirmation would be welcome.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


13/11/21 – 06:24

Hello Roger, I have just checked in Colin Druce’s excellent book ‘Southdown in Austerity’, and he confirms that these buses were indeed fitted with the Dennis 3.77 litre side valve petrol engine.

Roy Nicholson


01/03/22 – 06:47

I read with interest the notes on the captioned. I had been looking for any information regarding its present state, to date, to no avail. However despite my not being fully computer literate I managed to get the following, it is/was with Seaford & District who I understand have been taken over by 7 Sisters Bus & Coach whatever they might be in 01-2021. On the Seaford web site under Vintage Bus there is a Flickr Photopool, under Group Pool, Paul Goldsmith there is a shot of said bus, headed DCS_0105, dated 08/2017. It looks to be a VERY comprehensive works in progress, to say the least!. I should add that I have several times in the past sent E-mails to S&D regarding this vehicle but on no occasion did I get any reply, customer service?.

John Adrian Pearce

Southdown – Commer Avenger – XUF 55 – 55

Southdown - Commer Avenger - XUF 55 - 55

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1960
Commer Avenger IV
Harrington C35F

Southdown, ever primarily a Leyland operator (though Guy got a look in from time to time) also had a modest requirement for lighter chassis. Despite having operated the OB model successfully, Southdown then eschewed the Bedford SB when it looked for a lightweight coach chassis in the late 1950s. It is understandable that the Bedford petrol engine did not appeal, and the alternative Perkins R6 was not a very attractive diesel option either. From 1960 Bedford offered the SB with a Leyland engine, but even this did not entice the Southdown company. Instead, whilst still favouring Leyland’s lightweight Tiger Cub, hitherto highly conservative Southdown became surprisingly interested in the unconventional Tilling Stevens TS3 opposed piston, three cylinder, horizontal two stroke engine, and bought 25 Beadle Rochester C41F coaches in 1956-57. In 1959, after further Tiger Cub deliveries, Southdown returned to the TS3 engine with a batch of 15 Commer Avengers with Burlingham C35F bodies, their first from this coachbuilder since the 1930s. Another batch of 15 Avengers followed in 1959-60, but these were given Harrington Crusader Mk1 C35F bodies. The Beadles and the Commers all gave up to 12 years service with Southdown, the last being sold off in 1971. I recall seeing – and hearing – the Avengers quite regularly on the Brighton service along the A23. Their distinctive sound was unmistakeable. Seen here tucked away in a corner of Victoria Coach Station in 1960 is the last of the Harrington batch, No.55, XUF 55.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


10/03/16 – 15:45

I hope the panelling and upholstery had sound deadening qualities of the highest order. Detroit diesels of the period had a reputation for noise but the TS3 was in a league of its own!

Phil Blinkhorn


11/03/16 – 05:56

A further batch followed 41-55 shown in Roger’s picture. There were 15, numbered 56-70 (56-70 AUF) and were also bodied by Harrington. I assume that they were identical to the earlier batch, but my memory of seeing them can no longer recall any detailed differences, if any. I have just looked through the 2-volume history of Southdown by Colin Morris (Venture 1994), and the Vol.2 fleet list only prints the Beadle-Commers 1-25, and has neither list or photo of the Commer Avengers 26-70! Perhaps he had been deafened by the first 25?

Michael Hampton


11/03/16 – 05:56

It may be the angle of the photograph but this vehicle has a rather narrow look about it. Were these coaches 7ft 6ins. or 8ft. wide?

Chris Barker


11/03/16 – 05:57

I’m not sure, Phil. I’ve been in a TS3-engined bus only twice: once in recent years in a preserved coach at King Alfred Running Day at Winchester, and once fifty years ago driving some folk from Reading to Portchester, Hants, in a coach belonging to Spiers of Henley-on-Thames. As to the noise emanating from the exhaust pipe I agree with you all the way, but inside the vehicles things seemed reasonably quiet. Perhaps I enjoyed the sound so much that I was making undue allowances for it…
Commers raise a question in my mind: are they really a lightweight in the same sense as a Bedford or a Ford is?
We often call the Leyland Tiger Cub a lightweight, but I’d prefer a term like “three-quarterweight” or “quality lightweight”, since the feel of a Tiger Cub is solid and precise, like that of a heavyweight. In the same way a Guy LUF is every bit as solid as the over-heavy UF.
On that basis perhaps the Commer is a “five-eighths-weight”.
Interested to hear fellow OBP-ers’ views.

Ian Thompson


11/03/16 – 12:05

I don’t recall seeing any of these at all – were they based in Portsmouth?
I’ve found a photo of one of each batch side-by-side and they look identical. SEE //tinyurl.com/z49qe6x

Chris Hebbron


11/03/16 – 15:26

That’s a fine image of the two examples from each batch standing together. The only difference I can see is that the XUF driver’s mirrors are attached at the top of the windscreen, whereas the AUF mirrors are attached at the bottom. (And of course the windscreen wipers are facing in opposite directions…). My 1970 fleet list (SEC) shows the Portsmouth allocation as 6 XUF + 3 AUF [9], Eastbourne 4 XUF + 3 AUF [7], Worthing 7 AUF, and Brighton 5 XUF + 2 AUF [7], so they were quite well spread along the coast. The earlier Burlingham bodied batch (26-40) were at Eastbourne (3), Brighton (6), and Chichester (6). This is likely to have been their final allocations as Roger Cox notes that they had all gone by 1971, and the list I’m quoting from is accurate to 1st November 1970.

Michael Hampton


12/03/16 – 05:47

There is one more minor difference between them and that is that the XUF’s sported only a nearside spotlight; the AUF’s, one each side. Thanks, for the allocation details, Michael. You’d have thought that Southdown would have kept them all at one depot for ease of maintenance. Whilst I was looking for a photo of the other batch, I noticed photos of some of these vehicles working for contractors, showing that some had a further life beyond Southdown.

Chris Hebbron


12/03/16 – 05:48

I think all of Southdown Commer coaches and all of the Commer-powered Beadle coaches were eight foot wide. The reason that the Harrington-bodies look narrow is that they are tall compared to similar bodies on Thames or Bedford chassis.

Stephen Allcroft


Roger Cox

Thanks, Michael for reminding me that there was a further batch of the Harringtons. The straight framed Avenger was introduced in 1949, and the overall dimensions of the 109 bhp 4.75 litre six cylinder petrol engined Mk I were 27ft 6ins by 7ft 6ins. In 1952 the Mk II increased the available dimensions to 30 ft by 8ft, but the petrol engine was retained. Then, in 1954, the Mk III appeared offering the TS3 engine as an option, and this became the Mk IV from 1956 when the petrol and smaller chassis alternatives were dropped. The standard rear axle ratio was 4.3 to 1, but the Eaton two speed axle was also offered. Taking up Ian’s point about internal noise, the compact horizontal engine was installed over the front axle where the (no doubt well insulated) floor went over it, and this contributed to the apparent height of the vehicle. The engine was thus some way forward of the main saloon. Externally, of course, it was a different matter, and one could hear TS3 powered coaches and lorries approaching when they were still leagues distant. The TS3 engine developed 105 bhp at 2400 rpm, but as with other large two strokes, the torque curve was very peaky. Torque rose from 245 lb ft at 800 rpm to a maximum of 270 lb ft at 1200 rpm, but then fell away sharply to 225 lb ft at the 2400 rpm governed speed. Theoretically, the 3.26 litre two stroke TS3 equated to a four stroke motor of about 6.5 litres, though some efficiency and power losses inherent in the type, notably the requirement for a Roots blower to aid induction and scavenging of the cylinders, does prejudice a direct comparison. Nevertheless, as an illustration, the Gardner 5LW of 6.974 litres yielded 300 lbs ft of torque across the entire working speed range. At 1700 rpm the TS3 delivered only some 87 bhp against the 94 bhp of the Gardner. Even so, fuel consumption figures of up to 20 mpg were claimed for the TS3. The standard gearbox in the Avenger Mk IV was a four speed synchromesh unit, for which an optional overdrive was available, but a close ratio five speed constant mesh box was also offered. I am not sure which of these the Southdown coaches had, though I suspect the synchromesh. According to my records, the bare chassis weight of the Avenger was 3.125 tons, the maximum permissible gross weight being 9 tons. The maximum gross weight figure for the contemporary Bedford SB was 8.26 tons. The unladen weight of a bodied contemporary Tiger Cub was about 6 tons, which, with the full added weight for passengers, fuel, luggage etc, would raise this to a maximum of around 9 tons. Perhaps, as Ian suggests, the Avenger was in a similar weight category to the Tiger Cub rather than that of the lighter Bedford.

Roger Cox


13/03/16 – 14:54

Thx for the extra information, Roger. 20mpg was very good fuel consumption and quite possible the prime reason, along with reliability, why this engine was so popular, when two strokes were not highly regarded generally. I don’t know how general is the knowledge that Rootes were well into developing a four-cylinder version of the engine, with several prototypes on the bench. However, this was stymied by the Chrysler takeover and a clash with a similar effort between Chrysler and Cummins. This resulted in a TSR2 scenario, with orders to scrap all traces of this engine’s existence. Suffice to say that the Cummins engine was a complete failure and with the Plan B TS4 scrapped, that was it. There are some stupid people about! The full story can be found here: //tinyurl.com/gvjjutt

Chris Hebbron


14/03/16 – 06:52

I can confirm that my TS3 Rochester regularly achieves 18/20 mpg unless on a hilly route.
My father was development driver for the TS4 and I believe there is a thread somewhere on here about that engine

Roger Burdett


19/03/16 – 17:34

Roger Burdett’s actual consumption of 18-20 mpg for his TS3 Rochester is very impressive. The power saved by having no valvegear to drive must be more than balanced by the energy needed to drive the Roots blower, and all those extra large moving parts look as though they ought to sap power, but evidently not. Since simple crankcase-scavenge 2-stroke engines—whether petrol or diesel—always show poor fuel consumption, it’s easy to assume that all 2-strokes are thirsty by nature, yet the most economical prime mover ever built was the Wärtsilä-Sulzer RT-flex 96C 2-stroke marine engine, which is well worth Googling, until it was recently just overtaken by a 4-stroke engine (model 31) by the same Finnish builder. Both these engines are admittedly a trifle bulky for a coach, but they show what’s possible.
Roger, how does the consumption of your rear-engined Foden coach compare with that of other vehicles of a similar weight?

Ian Thompson


21/03/16 – 09:00

Ian my Foden consumption is around 12mpg but is inherently more unreliable than the Commer. The fuel system is more complex with a hydraulic governor and to be honest has not had the use it deserved. My LS Gardner powered which is comparable weight is c13.5mpg. The Leylands do around 12 and the Midland Reds 10.
As a rule all my Gardners do 13-14mpg whether 5LW; 6LW, or 6HLX except for my Tilling Stevens which with an overdrive 6LW does 17/18. The Commer is 3.1 litre with no overdrive but is incredibly fuel efficient as you say with the direct injection and a fairly low vehicle weight. The Roots blower once it is moving has far fewer parts than a a vehicle with valve gear. I do run the vehicle between 55-65mph on the motorway which always surprises speed limited modern coaches!

Roger Burdett


14/09/16 – 14:05

3190 UN

Here is a picture of my TS3 Avenger IV The Commer stands at 11 foot high so does look narrow but it is in fact the height that creates the illusion.
Yes 20 mpg is returnable without difficulty, as is cruising at 60 mph.

Russell Price


15/09/16 – 06:46

Those consumption figures for the TS3 engine underline the utter folly of Chrysler in abandoning the promising TS4 development. That engine would have surely been a winner, giving up to 200 bhp and 465 lb ft torque at 1800 rpm, all from 4.7 litres. The TS3 also proved to be outstandingly reliable, the weakest part apparently being the drive to the Roots blower. In playing the American card and going for V6/V8 from Cummins, Chrysler bought possibly the worst engine lemons ever to go into volume production. It’s a miracle that Cummins survived that debacle. On that note, there is a picture on the following site of a Black & White Daimler Roadliner fitted with a TS3 engine:- www.flickr.com/photos/  
I gather that it performed quite satisfactorily, and I wonder why others didn’t try this conversion. Today large two stroke engines fall foul of emission regulations, but the TS4 could have had its heyday well before those rules came into force.

Roger Cox


16/09/16 – 06:24

My father was test driver at Rootes for the TS4 and noise would have killed it as the harmonics were much greater than the Cummins. Let us not forget Cummins was part of Chrysler at that time and the V6/V8 production was only a small part of a big world wide conglomerate.
My father drove the V8 everyday in lorry form and units used to go Coventry-Linwood return 6 days per week up days back nights (different driver). That was 3500 miles per week. Reliability was an issue but never as great as in the Buses or the AEC V8 in the lorries

Roger Burdett


16/09/16 – 06:24

I believe it was noise regulations of 1972/3 that finally killed off the TS3 and TS4. I would agree in 30 odd years of owning it is a well engineered reliable machine.

Russell Price


16/09/16 – 13:35

I was working for Chrysler in Truck development at the time of the TS4. As we understood it, the TS4 greatly outperformed the Cummins V6/V8 in all aspects, but Cummins (a major part of Chrysler at the time) had invested a lot of cash in the V6/V8 and they did not intend to lose it! All the tooling for the TS4 had been ordered & delivered to the Whitley plant in Coventry, where it was put into store and eventually sold for scrap…brand new & unused. It was said at the time that caused the collapse and subsequent closure of Herbert Machine Tools. Cummins “Red Engines” had a number of unusual design feature. They were high speed diesels, which was a problem since drivers were not used to revving a diesel to get performance. In fact a special rev counter was fitted to the trucks with a green band (gear shifting range) and a blue band, complete with a sticker that read “Always drive in the blue band”. All fuel lines were drilled into the block, so it was a “clean” engine on the outside, but a problem if you got a blocked fuel line. Originally fitted with rocker operated 3 hole injectors, they suffered a bit of fuel starvation. This was overcome by changing to 5 hole injectors, which were slightly taller than the 3 hole and so necessitated changing the push rods, otherwise, bent push rods and a very unhappy engine! How do we know this? Let’s just say put it down to personal experience and move on!! The V8 was 185hp and the V6 was 160 hp. I think the only production Dodge that had the V6 was the L600, low height chassis, whereas Guy Motors took the V6 for a full size truck (Guy Warrior I think). The failure rate on the Red Engines was huge and we had a large pile of dead engines in the Whitley compound (Chrysler truck development relocated to Coventry from Luton & Dunstable at the end of the 1960’s). I hope this is of interest to you.

David Field


16/09/16 – 17:09

Thanks to David Field for the latest comments. The engine Guy used in the Big J was the VIM v-6 & Vine v-8. These were going to be built in the UK at the former Henry Meadows factory in a joint venture with Jaguar which did not go through. To bring things back to buses it was the Cummins VIM v-6 of 9.6 litres and 192bhp that was launched in the Daimler Roadliner.

Stephen Allcroft


17/09/16 – 05:11

A further bit of trivia regarding the TS3. Lord Rootes was a man who was not renowned for great judgement or making the best decisions. For example, after WW2 he was offered a choice of German engineering businesses as reparation for the damage done to Rootes group factories in UK. His options were VW car manufacturing or a rather strange and obscure 2 stroke engine being developed for aeroplanes (Heinkel I think). He chose the latter, apparently on the basis that the VW would never prove to be popular!
Does anyone know if TS3 engine PSV’s used the Maxiload oil bath air cleaner (located under the passenger seat on the truck) and the Cooper’s self cleaning muffler? Why I ask is because when the TS3 was stretched to 135hp in it’s final form (a stretch too far) one of the problems was that the blower shaft would snap. The first sign of this was a drop in power and the second sign was black oily smoke pouring out through the air filter – not good in a PSV. The quick way of replacing the shaft was to remove the radiator to get to the front of the engine. The front part of the broken shaft was easy to get at, but the rear part involved careful use of a couple of welding rods fused together and poked down the hole. The idea was that you would strike an arc onto the steel shaft and not the alloy block! I was wondering how you get to the front of the engine in both the Harrington and Plaxton bodies featured.
The Coopers muffler would probably scare passengers and other road users half to death today. Carbon was allowed to build up in the muffler until a certain back pressure and exhaust gas temperature was reached. There was then a discernible loud pop as the carbon ignited and was sent out through the tail pipe, as a trail of sparks and sometimes even the odd flame. Very impressive at night on the motorway!

David Field


17/09/16 – 11:41

The posts about the fascinating TS3/4 have been very interesting. Your point, David F, about the Coopers muffler spewing forth sparks reminds me of being in a express steam train, in the mid-1950’s, spewing out glowing smuts whilst climbing Shap Fell flat out at night. It was like descending into Dante’s Inferno! Not a time to put one’s head out of the window!

Chris Hebbron


17/09/16 – 18:36

Hmm yes the standard air filter on an Avenger IV is indeed right under the front double seat alongside the driver! It is essential to use silencers on a TS3 with the correct amount of back pressure. I have on several occasions had flames out of the exhaust of UN mainly when running well last time was on the A419 Swindon Cirencester section. The access to the engine is absolutely dire!! wont say more

Russell Price


07/08/17 – 06:41

Having had only fleeting experience of the Commer marque in my early days at SMS – 45 and 60 I think being the two we had at our depot – I really can’t think of a good word to say about them. The potential brake fade and a sound like an Atco powered football rattle were enough to put me off for life.
However, from before my time, am I right in thinking that the first batch (pre-Harrington) were the notorious ones that eventually ended up derelict in Bognor Yard with brambles etc growing through them? There was a story that the design didn’t allow for the removal of the engine which was an integral requirement in an ‘E Dock’, and they were consigned to Bognor as that maintenance time came. Thereafter, anyone saying ‘Bognor Yard’ about something was immediately understood as meaning ‘throw it away’.

Nick Turner

Barton Transport – Bedford VAL – 991 VRR – 991


Copyright John Turner

Barton Transport
1964
Bedford Val14
Harrington C52F

The picture shows Barton no. 991 (991VRR) operating on the long established route 9, Nottingham – Skegness service. 991 was a Bedford VAL14, chassis no.1429, supplied new in April 1964 (it says here!) It was one of a series of eight (989-996). A 52 seat Harrington Legionnaire Mark 1 coach body no. 2948 was fitted. At the risk of stating the obvious, it was a three axle vehicle, with the front pair of axles steering. I was 15 when they were introduced, and I and my mates considered them a bit exotic.
I am not sure of the location, but suspect it is probably Skegness, and it looks to be a lovely day for a trip to the seaside. “Skegness is so bracing” – sometimes damp as well!
The Skegness run was probably the earliest long distance service operated by Barton, going back at least to the 1930s. Its route number was not distinguished by an “X” but mixed in willy-nilly with Nottingham area locals, presumably in their order of introduction. (5 Derby, 6 Keyworth, 7 Epperstone, 8 Oxton, 9 Skegness, 10 Loughborough, 11 Coalville, 12 Leicester). For a good number of years the service actually started from Long Eaton, and I think on peak dates Derby). It competed with Trent’s X3, which I believe took a slightly different route.
Skegness was a standard destination on Barton’s blinds, including the double deckers, and there are many published pictures showing that double deckers (plural) were, in fact, often deployed on the route on Summer Saturdays. The well-known Duple bodied front entrance Leyland PD1s were particular favourites. They might be regarded as underpowered for such a long run, but it was actually pretty flat across east Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire. Although I never saw them doing it, I can well imagine them cantering along the long straight across the fens from Sleaford to North Kyme at 45+ mph emitting the distinctively raucous bark from the exhaust.
The refreshment and “comfort” break was always at Billinghay (where we happened to live from 1995 to 2003). My mother could remember travelling to Skegness on the 9 in the early 1930s, and stopping there at the Coach and Horses, where there were public toilets of the “earth closet” variety, with what I will delicately call “multi-position bench seating” ! In the last years of separate Barton existence the comfort break was moved across the road at the Golden Cross.

Copy contributed by Stephen Ford


04/12/11 – 07:58

When the VAL was taking off, people automatically gravitated towards the Duple and Plaxton offerings. Not so Barton, who not only bought Harrington Legionnaires – not Harrington’s finest hour – but also had VALs with some of the last Yeates bodies built (and with TWO doors!)

David Oldfield


04/12/11 – 10:32

Not forgetting the TWO handbrakes eh David?? I could wax lyrical for hours on the Bedford VAL which I considered to be a well designed, very comfortable and delightful vehicle with glorious sound effects to complete the enjoyment for the enthusiast passenger/driver.

Chris Youhill


04/12/11 – 11:43

Re: the location of the photo. I think in fact it is the old Broad Marsh bus station in Nottingham – the open-air version which disappeared in the early 1970s when the current station was built.

KC


05/12/11 – 06:35

The location is definitely Broadmarsh, the only reason I know that is because I’ve been searching photographs recently and if you look to the left of the windscreen, you will see a sign, GEOR– and through the windscreen PRINTERS, this was George Lomas Printers. This prompts me to ask if anyone can help with a query; the problem with old Broadmarsh was that every picture presents a different image, depending on the angle of the shot. We know that the stands were built in a horseshoe shape but in it’s last days, were they re-arranged so that they were parallel to Canal Street? I believe that Collin Street existed but it was nothing like the very busy road it is today. Would I be correct in thinking that old Broadmarsh was altered so that Collin Street could be widened and to allow work on the shopping centre and new bus station to begin?

Chris Barker


05/12/11 – 06:37

Yes, the Yeates bodied vehicles were themselves of two sorts – four with C50D bodywork, the remaining three with DP56D. How did they get the extra six seats in? Well, rearward of the central exit door the seating was 2+3 across the width, like suburban trains. They were used on normal crew operated stage carriage services. The aisle at the rear was very narrow, and when the triple seats were fully occupied, passengers on the aisle side were rather vulnerable to a smack in the ear from a passing Setright ticket machine!

Stephen Ford


05/12/11 – 11:22

Re: the two points made by Chris Barker…… In my previous post I included a link which seems to have been missed off the actual posting. This photo //www.picturethepast.org.uk/one shows the buildings behind the VAL and confirms the location.
On the question of the shape of Broad Marsh – the original version was indeed horseshoe-shaped with buses loading on the outside of the horseshoe. When the Broad Marsh area was being redeveloped in the late 60s, the bus station was changed but not parallel with Canal Street. It became two or three long platforms at right angles to Canal Street (parallel with the old railway viaduct).
This photo //www.picturethepast.org.uk/two it isn’t
brilliant but it shows the point fairly well

KC


05/12/11 – 14:33

If I remember rightly the Yates bodied VAL’s with there dual doors had in large white lettering IN and OUT on them

Roger Broughton


05/12/11 – 14:38

BARTON0002

Is this one of the Yates bodied VALs it is another shot from John Turner unfortunately I cannot make out the registration.


05/12/11 – 16:41

Yes, it could be 964 RVO bought new in 1963

Roger Broughton


05/12/11 – 16:41

The “IN” sign is clearly shown in a snap at //www.sct61.org.uk.

Mike Grant


06/12/11 – 06:42

The VAL’s were a strange choice of vehicle for the duties involved. Even on inter-urban services with limited numbers of stops, the two sliding doors which I assume where manual, must have been a pain for the conductor and unworkable with omo.
But then Barton was one of those type of operators that frequently defied the ‘norm.

Philip Halstead


06/12/11 – 06:43

It is lovely reading the various comments about Barton’s Route No.9 to Skegness. We lived in West Bridgford and caught the service at Trent Bridge outside Saxby’s the newsagents. I cannot remember the technical details of the coaches but they were very comfortable. About 2 months ago I took my daughter and grandson to Woodhall Spa and we stopped at the ‘Coach & Horses’ as I pointed out to them the excitement of knowing that we were about half-way to Skegness! Being of the modern generation they probably did not understand. I have a photograph from that trip but do not know how to include it!

Alan Rose


06/12/11 – 08:46

Chris Y, can enlighten us to how the two handbrakes operated

Roger Broughton


06/12/11 – 15:32

Certainly Roger. As far as I can recall, there was one in the region of the underside of the dashboard and that was operated by a smallish chrome lever with a very positive action. The other was a much larger lever, with button release in the end for the thumb to press, in a central position adjacent to the central engine bonnet cover. One of them was a normal handbrake operating on the rear brake drums, while the other worked by grasping the prop shaft. Egg on my face now, because much as I loved the VALs I can’t remember which was which – it is 42 years since I last drove a VAL !! On balance though, I think the small one was the normal parking brake while the larger “progressive” one was for extra retardation at busy times. I’d be glad if someone can settle this little point for us – one thing though is certain and that is that it was quite common for the uninterested element to do a few miles with one brake still applied before the penny dropped that the engine was not ailing and “pulling bad”, to use that sloppy slang expression.

Chris Youhill


07/12/11 – 06:56

Chris, would it be similar to a Telma retarder?

Roger Broughton


07/12/11 – 10:18

Well Roger, without doubt the effect would be the same, to slow the vehicle without undue strain on the brakes, but there the similarity ends. The Telma is a sophisticated electronic device which can be applied in specific driver selected stages, but the VAL’s second handbrake was a purely mechanical affair. I’m still at a loss to remember which brake did what on those fabulous vehicles. The Barton dual doorway service buses were a model I’ve never before heard of and are delightfully eccentric but no doubt functional. Other wonderful VALs were the North Western “low height” or “Beverley Bar” ones made for use under the Dunham Bridge ?? viaduct- these gave a rather whimsical imitation of the roof lines of London underground stock I always thought.

Chris Youhill


07/12/11 – 10:35

Chris’s mention of the VAL brakes reminds me of a time I rode in a Wallace Arnold VAL during a post-maintenance test run, driven by the Chief Engineer. He was very impressed with the VAL’s keen brakes and every time we past a female pedestrian he would apply the brakes sharply, causing the nose to dip alarmingly – accompanied by the announcement “Bow to the Lady!”.

Paul Haywood


08/12/11 – 06:34

I drove EUG 914D ex Wallace Arnold at Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury. The second hand brake was by the steering column and the handle edge stuck in your leg. The brakes were never up to the job and after they got hot squealed a lot. I was always complaining to our mechanic to adjust them so it was somewhat relieving to be promoted to a Bristol LH.

Philip Carlton


09/12/11 – 08:19

How interesting it was to stumble on the articles on the Bedford VAL. I drove one of these in the early 70`s. But what amazes me is that someone remembers about the two “parking brakes”. The one I drove, I believe an early one, had the retarder handle on the right and the handbrake on the left of the driving position. The retarder handle had a red tip to the lever. I saw a later VAL that was fitted with a Telma, as fitted to later Bedfords I drove. The reason for retarders on these VAL`s was because the brake linings were so small, due to the 16″ wheels and narrow linings, that brake fade was a regular occurrence. But something else that a lot of drivers also forget about the VAL, is the Turner “Chinese” 5 speed gearbox that some were fitted with. I can`t remember the shift pattern now, but it was really odd, with I think only 5th in the normal place. It was even more weird than the Bristol Lodekka 5 speed box, with it`s 5th after going through 4th.

Brian K


09/12/11 – 08:25

Philip, I’m sorry that you were so unhappy with the VAL – suffice it to say that when the large number of these were with Wallace Arnold there was no trouble with squealing or inadequate brakes so that’s a bit of a mystery.
Can you please though remember the functions of the two handbrakes ?? I’ve been trying to clear my failing memory, and now I’ve decided that the large one to the left of the driver was the normal one, while the little second one was the device for extra security by locking onto the propshaft ??

Chris Youhill


09/12/11 – 10:28

Brian. The weird “Chinese” 5 was on the early VAL14 (Leyland 0.400 engined) model – which most people now recon was better than the later VAL70 with the Bedford’s own 466 engine. As far as I know, the Bedford engined version had a fairly conventional gate pattern. If I can remember rightly – but I don’t swear to be right – the pattern was something like this: 2 5 1 3 4 R

I cannot recollect the functions of the two brakes – can just remember one being like a Morris pull up handbrake and the other like a Vauxhall umbrella type. Telmas were certainly fitted at a later stage to overcome brake inefficiency. The first one I came across was on a Burton/Brixham coaches VAL14/Marshall bus plying its trade between Brixham and Kingswear (for Dartmouth). The driver obviously knew what he was doing but I was very impressed by the way the Telmar aided safe negotiation of the hilly and winding road between those two places.

David Oldfield


10/12/11 – 07:27

As far as I recall the small one by the steering column was as you surmise locking on to the transmission and the other one was the normal handbrake.

Philip Carlton


10/12/11 – 12:22

Many thanks David and Philip for those helpful recollections which have sorted this matter out. I had also forgotten that reverse and first (crawler) gears were on the right of the gate – and certainly the normal four ratios were indeed as David recalls on the “Chinese” early versions. Philip also confirms that the small chrome handbrake lever, also on the earlier vehicles, was a purely mechanical device on the propshaft – again I had forgotten that later versions of the VAL had electric Telma retarders.

132_FUA_IN_DONISTHORPE_STREET

Myself (thin) and a fellow driver posing for a mock “handing over” ceremony of the first of the initial batch of three Bedford VAL coaches (132/3/4 FUM) for Wallace Arnold in 1963.

Chris Youhill


16/12/11 – 08:18

The first coach I drove after passing my PSV test was a Bedford VAL14/Plaxton Panorama KMC 628C for A L Moore of Sleaford, Lincs. The small handbrake on the steering column worked on the propshaft and the large one next to the bonnet was the normal handbrake but, unusually worked on the front axles, not the rear! The ‘chinese’ gearbox was fitted to the VAL14 with the Leyland engine whereas the ‘normal’ pattern 5 speed box was fitted to the Bedford engined VAL70. I remember Bartons VALs coming through my home village of North Kyme on their way to Skegness. Thanks for the memories!

Richard Hill


30/01/12 – 07:36

Fantastic machines I remember in my childhood going to the east coast in Leyland engined VAL”s run by Heaps Tours Leeds (anybody remember them I would be grateful for any info). The climb up Garrowby Hill usually produced some spectacular sound effects.

Tony Greig


31/01/12 – 08:03

The VAL14 in my view produced the purest of all Leyland O400 sound effects, very nicely captured in The Italian Job. (I never travelled on a VAM14, so don’t know if the sounds were quite the same.)

Peter Williamson


31/01/12 – 09:28

Tony I think most older folks in Leeds will well remember Heap’s Tours – a much respected operator who later adopted the title “Heaps Leopard Tours” and had a full picture of those noble animals on many vehicles. I seem to recall that Heaps took over Rogers of Leeds at some stage. The Heaps depot was next door to the Lyric Cinema in Tong Road – a building whose red “Lyric” neon sign remained lit at times long after the cinema closed.

Chris Youhill


31/01/12 – 09:29

Yes they were, Peter.

David Oldfield


31/01/12 – 15:23

Heaps were my local operator as a lad living a few hundred yards from the Tong Road depot which still exists but is now a car mechanics. They had an illuminated sign over the travel office showing an AEC Regal with a Duple body. They bought both Bedford Vals including one with a Harrington Legionnaire body. Later they caused me some personal amusement as they called themselves Leopard Tours but ran AEC Reliances!
They eventually became part of the Trimdon Motor Services Group and gradually faded away.
Originally their colours were green and cream but this changed to blue and cream in the 1960s.
Chris Youhill mentions Rogers of Leeds they were blue and cream and sported a boot logo of an illustration of Leeds town hall

Chris Hough


06/02/12 – 15:03

I drove for Seaview Services on the Isle of Wight for a number of years when on occasion I was allocated a VAL – which I hated! I found the driving position too low, while the steering was almost TOO responsive. I much preferred the YRTs, one of which was fitted with a TELMA – for the hilly bus route between Ryde and Seaview. The trouble was that it used to drain the battery very quickly – so I only used it when absolutely necessary.

Ian L Jamieson


Many thanks Chris Y and Chris H. I can vaguely remember the green and cream livery and as I became more aware of what vehicles they actually ran the idea of an AEC Leopard amused me too. I also recall when Trimdon took them over and they actually did employ Leopards, but as an operator they just seemed to “wither on the vine”. By the early 80″s I had formed other interests away from bus, coach and railway subjects (girls beer and rugby to be precise!) so it was a case of one minute they were there and the next minute they were gone.I should have paid more attention.

Tony Greig


23/04/12 – 06:04

Yes, the small chrome handbrake lever next to the steering column was indeed a transmission brake and whilst the bus moved with it on there could be disastrous consequences to the transmission. Besides the Yeates twin door buses (which did have power doors) and were not used with conductors we had two Plaxton coaches 971 and 972 at Long Eaton garage used mainly on the service 3/3c but on longer distance routes such as Leicester/Nottingham – Morecambe on Saturdays (I was on both these services in the late 60’s) A further one was 970 at Chilwell garage and two more were added to the fleet with the takeover of Hall Bros of South Shields. There were also 5 AEC Reliances with the Yeates dual door body although in later years the centre entrance unlike on the VAL’s was taken out.

Peter,C


24/04/12 – 06:57

Since this subject has been re-visited, I thought I’d mention the fact that when Barton’s were ready to dispose of these vehicles in the 1970’s, the whole batch of eight were advertised in the local paper, the Nottingham Post. I remember thinking, what a very strange thing to do, the thought of the average Post reader buying eight Bedford VAL’s!! I kept the clipping of the advert for many years before discarding it. How I wish I had it now to post on here!

Chris Barker


01/05/12 – 07:12

Hi KC and Chris B. There were several stages of development connected to the ‘open air’ Broad Marsh bus station. The latest being the platforms parallel to the GCR railway viaduct about 1969/70. I’ve not been able to establish when a bus station was first established at this location. The site was cleared of slum housing prior to 1939 so I imagine that the bus station was established in the late forties/early fifties. Examination of large scale OS maps and photos shows that initially there was only a semi horseshoe platform. My particular interest is with the Clifton services from when these were introduced in October 1952. At that time the Cliftons used a stand on the west side of the bus station (from where at a later stage the MGO services to Hucknall departed). The next stage was to construct a platform parallel to the railway viaduct for the Cliftons (circa 1954/55). The next stage was the full horseshoe but with the loading taking place inside the horseshoe with buses moving clockwise around the horseshoe. The last stage of the horseshoe was with loading taking place on the outside of the horseshoe (so buses moved around the horseshoe in an anti-clockwise direction). The Clifton services unloaded passengers at a separate layby adjacent to Widdowson’s factory before moving to the parking area inside the horseshoe (if a layover was being taken) or to the departure platforms to load. This change took place from 1st February 1959.

Michael Elliott


02/05/12 – 08:59

That’s very interesting information Michael, I’ve looked at a great many views of Broadmarsh and whilst the majority of them are self explanatory, there’s always one which is confusing. I wonder if you’re familiar with the book ‘Buses in the Sixties’ a Venture publication by John Banks and the late Geoffrey Atkins which contains many Nottingham pictures. On page 61, there is a shot of a South Notts PD2 on the 68, on the offside of it, an NCT PD2, also on the 68 but seemingly on layover. Behind them is an MGO Lodekka, presumably on the Hucknall service. The roadway appears to be straight but it isn’t parallel with the viaduct because there are many buildings in the background. This ties in with your comment about the Clifton services sharing a stand with the Hucknall service, the problem is, it’s dated June 1969. I’ve been to Nottingham Library and looked at the OS maps but I’ve still not been able to conclude this one satisfactorily!

Chris Barker


09/05/12 – 07:39

Returning to the original subject, I have to confess to being a bit of a fan of the Harrington Legionnaire. The grille is a disaster area of course, there’s no point in denying that. And this particular example, with sliding vents in the windows and six wheels, isn’t the best. But with forced ventilation, and on a Ford chassis (whose larger wheels broke the trim twice rather than half of it three times), it was one of the cleanest designs of its time, and in fact well ahead of its time if you compare it with the offerings of the likes of Van Hool up to 20 years later. //www.flickr.com/ I understand that when Harrington went out of business they were in the early stages of planning to replace the Grenadier with a new model based on the Legionnaire. It already has the Grenadier windscreen, and with no radiator at the front of underfloor engined chassis, it could have been given something like the the Grenadier dash panel in place of the grille.

Peter Williamson


09/05/12 – 19:29

As a big fan of Van Hool for both their understated timeless designs and for their unassailable quality, I can see what you mean about the Legionnaire. …..and yes, pity about the grille.
Whilst it is true that generally only quality firms survive it is also true that, sadly, quality firms die through no fault of their own (AEC and Bristol) or because they temporarily lose the plot (Burlingham and Harrington) never to regain it. It takes years to build up a reputation and minutes to destroy it!

David Oldfield


10/05/12 – 07:31

I agree with your comment about reputations David, but there are two opposite ways, aren’t there, to that fatal few minutes –
1. Stubborn decision to cling to a tried and tested product that has passed its sell-by date (Gardner was mentioned on another thread recently);
2. Thrusting, dynamic decision to strike out with a new product that just doesn’t cut the mustard. The former is like trying to stop water from running downhill, and the latter is like trying to make water run uphill!

Stephen Ford


10/05/12 – 11:17

Too true, Stephen.
I suppose, in one way, Burlingham was a case of 2nd scenario. Couldn’t better the original Seagull and tried to recapture the market with more and more bizarre offerings until the customers could/would put up with it no more.

David Oldfield


11/05/12 – 08:07

I bet someone can tell me why the VAL had those three axles. Length requirement? Easier turning of length because there was then no rear steer on 3 axles (except a second man sitting over the axle at the back!) Owner vanity? Product differentiation (meaning a styling gimmick, which GM knew all about) Or…..?

Joe


11/05/12 – 09:36

Did Harrington “temporarily lose the plot”? The Cavalier and Grenadier were the best things they ever did, and the Crusader had never been a big seller anyway. From what I have read, their problems stemmed from a shrinking market, their non-core work drying up (e.g. Sunbeam Alpine), and having no capital available to either develop new models or get out of their cramped and old-fashioned factory.

Peter Williamson


11/05/12 – 11:59

Peter, I think you’ve answered your own question. The plot is not necessarily the core activity (like designing a coach) but the other important but less exciting things like financial and business matters and reading the market ahead!

David Oldfield


23/05/12 – 16:58

I’ve just heard about a new sculpture which is to appear hanging over the edge of the roof of the De La Warr Pavilion in Bexhill at the end of June. It’s a life size model of the Harrington Legionnaire bodied Bedford VAL which was used in the 1969 film The Italian Job. The sculpture is called Ang On Lads I’ve Got a Great Idea. Anyone who has seen the film will know why.

Peter Williamson


31/05/12 – 08:14

I worked as a mechanic at Heaps tours from 1968 to 1972. The Val did indeed have the main handbrake working on the front 4 wheels, operated by a large ratchet lever. The umbrella type pull out handbrake (like on some ford cars of the 60s), worked a drum brake on the propshaft. Heaps Vals had Leyland 400 engines, which I fitted exhaust brakes to, to save on brake shoe wear, as one of the hills down south was 6 miles long, so I was told, brakes on all the way. The exhaust brake was operated by compressed air and nearly shut off the exhaust system causing the engine to be a compressor, as most of the exhaust gases could not escape. I have had some fun working on the Bedford Vals.

David Green


05/06/12 – 08:36

The “Harrington Gathering” was at Amberley, Sussex, Sunday (3 June), with an impressive collection of vehicles. There was a VAL/Legionnaire booked to attend, CNW 155C, but it didn’t make it. This particular vehicle is with Kenzie’s, and was new to Heaps.

Pete Davies


06/06/12 – 10:03

CNW 155C_lr

This is the former Heaps Harrington bodied VAL. It appears to be in excellent condition, and was photographed at the AEC Centenary Rally at Newark Showground on 27 May 2012. (The Rally had a number of non AECs present).

Bob Gell


12/12/12 – 15:50

The Val parking brakes were interesting. It needed two because of the regulations on the weight which had to be braked by the parking brake. As previously mentioned the big lever on the left worked on the drums on the four front wheels. This brake was safe to be applied whilst moving and would also hold the coach when the wheels were on ice. The umbrella worked the drum on the transmission at the diff. It could not be used when moving.Parking only and was effective but!! if it was parked on ice the wheel on the ice would slip on the ice and allow the wheel off the ice to rotate and the bus would move off down the hill. Neither of them were retarders. A Telma was fitted to many. If the brakes were correctly adjusted they were perfectly OK but most mechanics didn’t know the trick on how to adjust them to get the best. Mine were fine once I used the Bedford “new lining set up procedure” every time I adjusted them and used the Telma retarder intelligently.

John Watson


13/12/12 – 06:16

Whilst the Harrington bodied VALs were heading to Skegness, the Yeates bodied fleet headed off to Blackpool.
I recall regularly seeing both single and dual doorway versions on the A6 in Stockport and Manchester. They were probably the most exotically bodied VALs in the UK.
I don’t recall the Harrington bodied VALs operating to Blackpool but that doesn’t mean they didn’t – perhaps they didn’t make the same impression!
As to an earlier query about why there were three axles, in the year the VAL was launched Bedford ran a half page ad in some national dailies and regional evening papers at the time of the Commercial Motor Show to extol the VAL – a seemingly strange thing to do, foreshadowing Barton’s ad to sell their fleet.
The ad stated something along the lines of “two steering axles for cornering stability and smoother riding”, the latter an interesting claim given the 16 inch wheels.
Three axles certainly were not a legal requirement.

Phil Blinkhorn


13/12/12 – 10:30

Yes Phil, the VAL was indeed a “surprise” development but nevertheless, as a driver and as a passenger, I found them extremely stable and, as the advert claimed, most certainly superbly smooth riding. If one unavoidably went over an unfamiliar defect in the road the VAL sailed on unperturbed, the only clue being a rather endearing little rubbery sound as both front axles passed over the fault. Better stop now before folks think that I was besotted by the model – well I was – I loved them.

Chris Youhill


13/12/12 – 14:40

The only VALs I ever rode on were North Western’s special Strachans bodied vehicles with the low height, curved roof for the Dunham Woodhouses bridge.
These rattled almost from new and it was obvious when a road defect was hit. North Western only kept them until their first seven year certificate expired as body structural defects were too expensive to repair.
Stripping out Chris’s bias towards the type, there must be a grain of truth in his observations (!!) as the type was popular and many had long and useful lives.
It just shows how a limited experience of a type can influence one’s views.

Phil Blinkhorn


14/12/12 – 07:13

I’m not sure what engines were available for VAL’s or the power of them. Were they quite lively vehicles in service?

Chris Hebbron


14/12/12 – 07:13

I understand that Bedford opted for a three axle layout for their 36 foot coach to avoid having to develop ‘heavy duty’ axles, making use of existing axles from the range of Bedford lorries. Ford, on the other hand, for their 36 foot coach – the Thames 36 – developed heavy duty axles for the chassis.

Michael Elliott


14/12/12 – 08:45

Michael you are spot on with the front axle, as for the engine, I know they used the Leyland 400 but as for a Gardner 6LX I don’t think so with a front entrance.

Andrew


14/12/12 – 08:46

Originally fitted with a Leyland 0.400, after three years this was replaced by a Bedford 7.64 litre engine.
I’m not sure about Michael’s comment. The Bedford TK range of trucks produced from 1959 had a number of heavyweight versions available by the time the VAL appeared and had produced heavyweight axles throughout the 1950s for its S range of trucks.

Phil Blinkhorn


14/12/12 – 08:47

Chris. There were only two VAL models – the original VAL14 (1962-1967) and the subsequent VAL70 (1968-1973). The VAL14 had the 125bhp Leyland 0.400 (Tiger Cub) engine (6.54 litres) which was replaced by the 143bhp Bedford 466 engine (7.6 litres). Received wisdom is that, despite being noisy, the Leyland unit was by far the superior engine. It was never, however, going to be lively.
[For the likes of me, nothing topples a heavy-weight with AH590/691/760, 0.600/0.680 or 6LX(B) power. The extra torque was crucial.]

David Oldfield


14/12/12 – 10:50

Thx, Phil/David.

Chris Hebbron


14/12/12 – 16:11

As has been touched on already, the concepts behind the VAL were stability and passenger comfort. The use of 16in wheels meant that the resultant vehicle was extremely low-slung and therefore ha a low centre of gravity. The use of 16in wheels also meant a lack of wheel arch intrusion and a flat floor. The third axle was necessary to spread the weight — with small wheels more of them were needed. The extra steering axle also contributed to the stability of the vehicle. Passengers loved the VAL, hence its unprecedented success, but it was challenged in the power department, and with the increasing demand for heavier and more powerful coaches in the 1970s, its benefits became less important.

Philip Lamb


10/01/13 – 07:03

Found this site by accident, was a bus-spotter when a child, have no expert knowledge.
I was lucky enough to travel on a Val Vega Major owned by Bullocks of Cheadle, for a Sunday school outing to Blackpool from Stockport. It has been my favourite coach ever since. Sad to see it derelict on the Wakefield Files website.
My eleven-year-old imagination caused me to ‘design’ a long-distance coach for Britain’s fledgling motorways, with two rear axles and three at the front! (A Chinese ten?). I have now seen a picture of a double-decker with such an arrangement on the ‘net.
Thanks for helping me to wallow in nostalgia.

Malcolm D


08/02/13 – 06:23

Baryons used to use these on service 18 Beeston Rylands to Ilkeston and beeston Rylands to Nottingham I was a conductor with Baryons in the late 60s and worked that route that’s how I met my wife who lived in Beeston Rylands I later became a driver and on occasions they did go to Skegness on the express service.

Geoff Conway


27/04/13 – 15:43

The comment about being challenged in the power department is all too accurate – but then, with a Tiger Cub engine in a 36 footer, they could never be anything else. In the VAL’s case, the weird choice of gear ratios did nothing to help. The gap between 3rd and 4th was so big that on even a modest hill, changing up to 4th was a waste of time. By contrast, 5th was barely higher than 4th. Perhaps there was a good reason for this but I can’t think of one.

Bob Hunter


29/04/13 – 08:01

The 5-speed gearbox on the VAL seemed to be an early attempt to get to grips with motorways while recognising that most drivers would always start in second gear on level ground. Consequently first was little more than a crawler, second was for moving off, fourth (direct drive) for normal cruising and fifth (overdrive) for fast roads and motorways, leaving a huge gap for third to fill.
There was an alternative gearbox listed – a 5-speed close-ratio direct-top unit for bus work – but I don’t know if any were actually built.

Peter Williamson


26/10/13 – 08:00

966 RVO

Adding to the comment about two-doorway examples, here is a shot I caught at Kidderminster, Severn Valley Railway a few years ago with one of these examples seen from the doorway side; now how can you miss which door is which??
The SVR used to stage this superb rally early October each year, a magical mix of steam trains, lots of heritage buses and, as here, perfect weather. Sadly, this event no longer continues, I suspect mainly because a combination of car parking constraints down in the town centre/Sunday trading made unavailable the big (car park) space between the SVR and “big railway” stations.
I liked to get there early to see the arriving vehicles, and as was the case with this one, I got pleasant surprises to see and photograph buses I never knew had survived.

Rob Hancock


26/10/13 – 17:16

Rob,
The SVR still host this excellent rally. This year (October again) at Bewdley – a station further along the line – and again enjoyed a fine day with some interesting and immaculate exhibits. Long may it continue, a great day

Nigel Edwards


26/10/13 – 17:16

Sitting in my daughter’s home in Texas on a sunny Saturday morning, Rob’s photo has immediately transported me back to Stockport Rd, Levenshulme, Manchester on summer Saturdays in 1964 when I had a summer job in a grocers and at least one of these exotic machines would pass on their way to Blackpool.
Thinking about the seating aft of the rear door, This must have been bad on stage carriage services and decidedly uncomfortable on the long haul to Blackpool.

Phil Blinkhorn


27/10/13 – 06:49

LRW 377

Rob – I do admire your faith in human nature, but believe me some of the travelling public are well capable of using the wrong doorways, both when boarding or alighting. At Samuel Ledgard we had and ex Daimler/Duple standee demonstrator LRW 377 which had been all over before we bought it and we purchased it as it was expected to be ideal for the busy Otley town services in lieu of a double decker. It SHOULD obviously have been ideal but, oh dear, there were battles royal within at every stop despite the rear and front doors being clearly labelled. It seated 36 with 28 standing if necessary. It was eventually put out to rural pastures on the long service from Bradford to Harrogate, with the standing reduced to eight. Then it was sold to Bere Regis and District in Dorset, who removed the rear door and increased the seating to 42.

Chris Youhill


29/10/13 – 13:27

Here is a link to a Strachans advertisement for the unique North Western VALs mentioned above by Phil Blinkhorn. www.flickr.com/photos/3  Like one or two other correspondents, I wasn’t greatly taken by the VAL. I always understood that the twin steering arrangement was the inevitable result of choosing reduced diameter wheels to reduce the floor height. This meant that the drum brakes had to be correspondingly small, so that an extra axle at the front not only helped to carry the distributed weight of the overhung engine on the small tyres but also provided the necessary increase in brake lining area. Even so, I believe that the VAL, like the PD3, needed an understanding driver where the brakes were concerned. I never drove one, and had only a few trips as a passenger, so I fully respect the much more informed comments of those with greater experience of the type. Certainly Bedford at that time tried hard with well engineered designs to meet the needs of the smaller operators. The subsequent demise of the marque was entirely the result of complacency and R&D starvation by General Motors. A new generation of Bedfords for the motorway age could easily have been developed. The Dennis Javelin was devised to meet such a demand, and it notched up respectable sales.

Roger Cox


29/04/14 – 08:20

The Bedford VAL was a second rate vehicle at Bartons, l liked them but some did not, they were a coach doing a bus job, as a lad l worked with a fitter and we fitted an exhaust brake off an AEC on a VAL 964, it was an instant success it reduced brake wear by 50 per cent. It became standard on all ours and other firms started doing the same, we stopped buying them but later inherited one when we bought Provincial Coaches of Leicester in 66 and more when we bought Hall Bros, South Shields, they all went in the 70s in PX for the new fleet of Leyland Leopards, l have driven VALs on breakdowns, service, and private hire.

Bill Redfern


06/03/15 – 16:17

I have never driven a VAL, but have travelled on several over the years. They achieved the same ride quality on Leaf springs that modern Coaches manage with Air Suspension. The Achilles heel was the brakes, which needed to be adjusted a lot more frequently than other chassis. The 16″ wheels were the same size as the Bedford VAS.

Stemax1960


07/03/15 – 07:11

Readers of this site may be interested to know that this month’s issue of Bus and Coach Preservation magazine has an article about Barton Transport – Bedford VAL 966 RVO.
This is one of the Yeates bodied examples, and is now unique.

Stephen Howarth


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


09/03/16 – 16:05

I have only just found this forum, I find it very interesting in as much as my last live in bus, in which I must add brought my 5 children up in, well for several years of their life. My example was a Harrington Legionnaire registration number 8750 HA formerly out of Smethwick, it was originally registered in 1964 making it a VAL14. There has been a lot of remarks made as to the brakes, some later quotes have corrected the layout of parking brakes, the small umbrella type is indeed a prop shaft brake and is not for use as an emergency brake as it can cause breakage of half shafts. The regular handbrake is a ratchet affair which operates on all four front wheels, this does in fact provide a very safe emergency brake. There was a way of getting the front brakes set up properly, this was disconnect all cables from drums, adjust the brakes then reconnect cables and adjust them to operate at the same time on all four wheels. I did upgrade mine to VAL 70 spec. which had a profound affect on stopping power, the VAL70 shoe having 50% extra width. Having driven a variety of buses and trucks over the years this was the nicest to drive, stupidly I scrapped this one in the nineties.
By the way it is right as was said, there is a beautiful sound produced from the 400 power plus.

Kenneth Hulbert


10/03/16 – 05:05

Congratulations Sir – what a very fine home for a family, and mobile too which was no doubt an advantage for holidays etc. Like you I always found the VALs of whatever marque to be a fascinating delight to drive, especially for an enthusiast. Why so many people disliked them I can’t imagine – they were adequately powered and braked, and the suspension gave the passengers a superbly comfortable ride which many “traditional” models from other makers couldn’t match. I particularly recall happily that if you unavoidably went over some unexpected or hidden road defect there was no jerking – just a fascinating aural “plupp plupp” as the four wheel front “bogie” contained any shocks incredibly well. I’d love to have a go in a VAL right now – a comfortable ride and delightful sound effects from engine and transmission – a very honest model indeed in the usual Bedford tradition.

Chris Youhill

Charlie’s Cars – Albion Valiant – LJ 9501 – 57

Charlie's Cars - Albion Valiant - LJ 9501 - 57

Charlie’s Cars (Bournemouth)
1934
Albion Valiant
Harrington C32F

In my early days of working in Southampton, I worked with a fellow whose Secondary School days had been spent in Christchurch, then in Hampshire. He commented several times about the firm ‘Charlie’s Cars’, saying that one of his teachers was something of a snob who refused to use the registered name. He always called it ‘Charles’s Cars’. LJ 9501 is an Albion Valiant PV70 (Jenkinson, 1978) or SpPV70 (PSVC 2012), new in 1934, but given this Harrington C32F body in 1947. She spent several years under restoration at Cobham, but we see her taking part in the Harrington Gathering at Amberley on 3 June 2012.

LJ 9501_2

This second view shows the bodymaker’s plate.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


12/07/16 – 07:40

I have fond memories of Charlie’s Cars from my youth, growing up in Bournemouth, although I expect this fine example was already withdrawn or close to it, by the time I was born!
Their garage was along the South side of Alma Road near Winton Banks. it had a large wooden sign across the entrance, at high level, with ‘Charlie’s Cars’ written on it in the house colours. The ‘sunshine’ radiator is a nice touch; was this a common feature of the period?

Grahame Arnold


12/07/16 – 12:00

I don’t know if it was a common feature on the radiator, but it was certainly on the badge. It’s the Albion logo ‘Sure as the sunrise’

Ronnie Hoye


12/07/16 – 18:00

Hebble had three Valiant coaches (two with English Electric bodies and one with Northern Counties). Whilst going through the Halifax Motor Taxation Records in about 1970 tracing local vehicles I found that one of the English Electric-bodied ones had passed just after the war to a private owner in Stainland, just outside Halifax, who was the last recorded owner, the licence having been surrended almost immediately.
Later in the 1970’s when I was involved with a bus preservation group, one of the group learned purely by chance from someone he’d met of an ‘old bus’ that a man from Halifax had kept on a farm near Allerston, on the Scarborough to Pickering road, for use as a holiday caravan. On further investigation it turned out to be this very same man from Stainland and the ‘bus’ was that Hebble Valiant – JX 507. How exciting – what a rare survivor, and when could we go and have a look with a view to acquiring it. Then it turned out that it had been dragged out of its spot only a couple of weeks beforehand and totally destroyed. It had survived all that time, and we’d missed it by two weeks. Isn’t that always the way ?

John Stringer


12/07/16 – 18:00

Thanks, Grahame and Ronnie. Whilst the feature is an element of the Albion badge, as Ronnie says, I’ve never seen it on another Albion radiator. Perhaps that’s because this is a preserved vehicle, and kept cleaner than many would be whilst ‘working’. Any offers on that?

Pete Davies


25/07/16 – 09:32

This Albion features in my Gallery compilation HCVS Charabanc trip 2011. Seen when visiting the owners private collection. It was also an entry on 2010 Trans Pennine Run.

Roy Dodsworth

Maidstone & District – Albion Nimbus – 310 LKK – S310

310 LKK

Maidstone & District Motor Services Ltd
1960
Albion Nimbus NS3N
Harrington B30F

One of Maidstone and Districts batch of Albion Nimbus/Harrington single deckers resting at the rear of the now demolished Tonbridge Depot. Its normal duties would have been the local town service route 77 which ran a twenty minute headway. The route always had Albions which I think may have been due to narrow roads at the town end of the route.
Tunbridge Wells also had an allocation of Albions for town service, these periodically ventured out into the countryside on route 110 to Mayfield which featured climbing the one in ten hill into Mayfield high street, and the route 107 out to the village of Chiddingstone which again featured hilly terrain.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Patrick Armstrong


10/06/15 – 09:07

What many operators would have taken as a utilitarian vehicle has been turned from a Plain Jane into a Glamour Bus by the wheel trims, the shaped destination box and M&D’s treatment of the front under the windscreen.
A shining example of how to improve the visual environment.

Phil Blinkhorn


11/06/15 – 10:23

I have often thought that, the frontal treatment excepted, these Harrington bodies very closely resembled the Weymann bodies fitted to the Western Welsh and Halifax machines. Did they share the same framing design, perhaps?

Roger Cox


25/07/15 – 06:09

Western Welsh 1-24 had Harrington bodies, the M&D batch followed on from them. Western Welsh obviously had Weymann build 25-48 to the same outline; they also used a version of the outline for Halifax’s infamous batch.

Stephen Allcroft


17/07/16 – 05:50

I joined the M&D in 1961 fresh out of college. Having passed my PSV test on I think DH156 (It had a sliding window behind the driver) I set out to discover Kent and Sussex. This was the time when we had full buses and a variety of vehicles, Leyland, AEC, Guy, Daimler, Bristol, Commer and old SARO, RKE R4O which must have been the slowest most awkward vehicle to drive!!! Most times I was out in rural Kent with the occasional sortie onto the main key where shift times allowed. It was also profitable the most hours that I got paid for in one week was 108 comprising normal shift pay plus some double and treble hours, marvellous. I still at the advanced age of 79 remember those days with nostalgia and have my original badges, drivers KK37733 and conductor KK41873.

Reg Stubbs