Black & White Motorways 1964 AEC Reliance 2MU4RA Harrington Grenadier C41F
This batch of five coaches seems to be rarely photographed despite their superb appearance enhanced once again by a beautifully simple livery on the most elegant of bodies. Delivered in May 1964 they were AEC Reliance 2MU4RA chassis with Harrington Grenadier C41F coachwork, fleet No’s were A247-A251, the photo was taken on Marine Parade Eastbourne probably in the summer of 1965. My impression was that Black and White operated very few extended tours or other excursion work instead concentrating on their extensive express service network, perhaps someone can confirm or contradict me on that point.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
29/06/16 – 16:14
I am not sure about extended tours but I think that Black and White did have a day excursion programme- how big the catchment area was I do not know. Given the peak requirements on Summer Saturdays, a source of midweek revenue was desirable. The only company I can think of with an express commitment pattern like Black and White (Yelloway) did have a substantial day excursion traffic with a huge catchment area.
Malcolm Hirst
11/07/16 – 07:30
Black and White did handle quite a lot of excursion work as Malcolm states. Sometimes the official definition of ‘Excursions and Tours’ as used by the Traffic Commissioners etc was over embracing in many cases as operators may have run excursions but may not have run extended tours. In Kevin Lane’s book ‘Glory Days – Black and White’ there is the odd reference to ‘tour’ work (in the context of ‘not excursion’ work like these passages: In addition to its work for Associated Motorways, Black & White was very active in the field of tours and excursions, which is how it all started out. An eight day luxury tour was also offered to North Wales and Snowdonia. ‘he best – usually the newest – vehicles were used for tour work, which required the hiring of vehicles from other operators to fulfil Associated Motorways commitments. A pool of drivers employed on tour work was established based on seniority – a highly prized position. There are numerous references to ‘tours’ to the Cotswolds, Forest of Dean etc which I think were references to day excursions but that is just my interpretation.
Neath & Cardiff coaches were affectionately known as ‘Brown Bombers’ and they certainly made short work of demolishing the miles along the M4. This AEC Reliance (2MU3RA083) carries a handsome Harrington C41F body (2309) and was new to Neath & Cardiff in 1960. I am not sure if this striking (for me) livery would eventually give way to the uninspiring NBC livery. After eventual withdrawal by the NBC she still had a varied career until being brought back to the Swansea Bus Museum, on whose 2016 Running Day in original Neath & Cardiff livery we see her.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
16/09/16 – 17:13
N&C were taken over by South Wales before the corporate identity was introduced.
Stephen Allcroft
06/10/17 – 07:43
Used to love seeing these at Cardiff Bus Station (RIP) in the sixties. But surely they weren’t doing many miles on the M4 when first delivered?
Gerry
20/01/18 – 06:07
In the days when N&C were operational, the M4 motorway terminated at Tredegar Park at the western edge of Newport. The only motorway west of there was the elevated section of the M48 at Port Talbot. I don’t recall N&C operating along this elevated section. By the time that the motorway network expanded into Wales, N&C operations had been subsumed into those of South Wales Transport and Western Welsh
Frank Potter
12/05/20 – 07:04
My Dad drove the N and C buses when they were owned by Sir Godfrey Llewelyn until they were nationalised and absorbed in to Western Welsh. They were affectionally known then as the ‘Chocolate’ buses. This was in the end of war mid 1940’s
Maidstone & District 1958 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Harrington B42F
By the mid 1950s, bus patronage was beginning to show signs of serious decline, and the Traffic Commissioners were empowered to grant dispensation for the use of buses with more than the traditional 20/26/30 seats on (what was then called) OMO operation. The first large saloons bought by Maidstone & District specifically for OMO were eleven Harrington Contenders of 1955 powered by the distinctive TS3 two stroke engine. Then, having gained experience with the all conquering AEC Reliance on coach duties, this chassis became the firm M&D choice from 1957 for OMO saloon work. Initially, the selected bodywork supplier was Weymann, then Beadle, before Harrington was chosen to build the bodies on a batch of twenty five in 1958. Here is 251 BKM, SO251 in the M&D fleet, seen in July 1973 after disposal to the dealer, Trevor Wilcox Brown, the proprietor of Tillingbourne Bus Company. This Reliance, a 2MU3RV model fitted with a Harrington B42F body, was never operated by Tillingbourne, but was quickly sold on to another dealer in Middlewich. I undertook the delivery run from Gomshall to Middlewich, and was impressed by the alacrity with which the machine tackled the hills around Amersham – I always skirted round to the west of the Great Wen – though the top speed was understandably rather modest on the motorway. The picture shows the bus somewhere around the Chipperfield area in Hertfordshire (if my high mileage memory is still functioning). En route on the motorway, I was somewhat disconcerted to find that the accelerator ceased to return to shut down the engine speed, so I pulled in at the next service area and investigated. By lifting up the inspection flaps in the floor, I established that the return action was provided by a simple coil spring linking the throttle rod to a lug on the chassis. The locating loop on one end of this spring had just snapped off, mercifully leaving the remaining part hanging down. I scoured the ground around the lorry park to see what I could find to effect a rudimentary repair and was rewarded by the discovery of a length of rigid but pliable wire. This I managed to force between the last two coils of the broken end of the spring, bent it round to secure it, and then made a loop with the other end before fatiguing off the surplus length (all done with the fingers – I had no tools with me). That bit of Heath Robinson engineering got me safely and uneventfully on to my Middlewich destination.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
17/10/16 – 07:26
Smart, purposeful looking bus. Perhaps the Middlewich dealer sold it on to an unsuspecting operator, who may have run it with your rudimentary bit of wire doing its job, for many years, Roger!
Peter Murnaghan
17/10/16 – 09:10
A member of this batch, 255 BKM, was sold to Clynnog and Trefor Motoer Services in North Wales, where it lasted for many years.
Don McKeown
18/10/16 – 08:00
253 BKM was saved for preservation in 2008 after festering in Somerset for many years. Now safely stored inside “somewhere in Sussex” pending restoration.
Malcolm Boyland
Reference vehicle S2 this was delivered to Tonbridge depot along with S3-4 and 5, All four from new as we already had S1 also from new. I think that it was probably because the M&D were using the idea of new buses would encourage us drivers to accept larger vehicles on one man operation. They were right because we were also the first depot in the fleet to accept the use of double deckers on o.m.o. work. If my memory serves me correctly these were Bristols. I was a driver at Tonbridge from 1961 until the closure of the depot. then transferred to Borough Green and then Tunbridge Wells until the mid nineties when I had to retire due to ill health.
Bevan Brothers of Soudley 1950 AEC Regal III 9621A Harrington FC33F
Bevan Brothers of Soudley (also known as Soudley Valley Coaches) seem to have had an interesting fleet. KDD 38 is an AEC Regal III of the 9621A variety and it has Harrington FC33F body, complete with the famous dorsal fin. The first view shows it is passing Hound Church on its way to the Netley rally on 10 July 1988. In the second view, it in the Southsea rally on 8 June 1986.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
Frank Osborne
I am sure that this is one of the buses used by Bevans bus company for the school runs to Lydney boys and girls secondary schools. Pupils picked up from the districts of Sedbury Beachley Tutshill and so on. I was picked up in Netherend by the shop opposite our house on the corner. Another of the Bevans fleet I am pretty sure was a Leyland Comet. This would have been the 1960`s when I was at school. Happy days!
Margo’s of Thornton Heath 1937 AEC Regal I Harrington C33F
This picture, taken in 1960 or 1961, shows an AEC Regal of either late pre-war or early post-war vintage – the mechanical specification was virtually identical – with a straight stepped waistrail body of unknown (to me) manufacture. I would suspect that the chassis is of the usual 7.7/crash gearbox variety, but the front wing treatment is not of standard AEC pattern of the period. The number CPK 168 is a Surrey registration, and, when photographed, the coach was being operated by the once well known (certainly to the Traffic Commissioners!) firm of Margo’s of Thornton Heath, in whose Zion Place premises it is seen. Can our Forum experts supply more information?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
29/08/11 – 08:00
Gut reaction – a pre war Harrington. Those odd flat plates in front of the wings I suspect is an operator addition.
David Oldfield
29/08/11 – 08:01
An observation… do you notice how the lack of a canopy gives you nowhere to put the wing mirror- it is, I imagine, that tiny thing on the wing…
Joe
29/08/11 – 08:02
The bodywork I am certain is by Harrington. It bears a very strong resemblance to some supplied to North Western on Leyland Tigers in the 1934-1937 period. Some of these were rebodied by Windover in 1950 and now I’m wondering if any of the original bodies were sold on for further use. Pure speculation of course, I don’t even know if this vehicle has its original body or not but although the mouldings are slightly different at the rear from the North Western ones, it is a faint possibility. The front wing treatment is obviously nothing to do with AEC, but an attempt to give a more up to date look, in fact, if the vertical part wasn’t so deep, it could almost be mistaken for a Regal III!
Chris Barker
29/08/11 – 11:07
Having had relations in nearby Streatham I have many vivid memories of seeing the Margo’s fleet in early postwar years – I have to say that the little quip about them being well known “to the Traffic Commissioners” comes as no surprise if casual observations are anything to go by !! By the way Joe, I know it takes some believing but nearside mirrors were not legally necessary until a date which just escapes me, but well after WW2. I just can’t imagine how anyone managed to avoid a “crushing” nearside accident for even an hour let alone day after day, and I certainly wouldn’t have liked it.
Chris Youhill
29/08/11 – 16:07
Certainly in later years, Surrey Motors of Sutton were a consistent AEC/Harrington operator. Could it have originated with them?
Mike Grant
29/08/11 – 16:09
Chris- when you consider that there were then probably more bikes on the road, you had little way of telling who was coming up the inside- and on this photo but not pre mid fifties, no trafficator either. Your jacket may have had a white patch on the right arm for you to stick your arm out of the little window whilst getting 7 tons+ on to unassisted full lock…. but telling people on your nearside that you were turning left…? Perhaps that’s what conductors were for…?!
Joe
I do concur with the view that this is a Harrington body – the cab design in particular does have the look of that coachbuilder. I went to school in neighbouring Selhurst, and I often saw the Margo fleet, including this Regal, round and about in the area. Later, I used to pop round to the Margo yard to see what they had acquired, and it was on such a trip that I luckily managed to get this photo. Often the gates would be shut and barred, probably to keep the Traffic Commissioner’s inspectors out as much as the general public. The transport press back in the 1960s and 70s regularly gave hilarious accounts of the skirmishes between Margo and the authorities. The excuses for the absence of drivers’ hours and fleet maintenance records always fell into the “dog ate my homework” category. Later, Margo rebranded as International Coach Lines, and bought a number of the early Bristol VRL double deck coaches. Chris’s point about nearside wing mirrors is correct. Even when they became obligatory some buses, including, surprisingly, those of London Transport, had miniscule postage stamp sized efforts on the nearside.
Roger Cox
30/08/11 – 08:07
That was a good idea about Surrey Motors: yes, it was their no 15, new in August 1937 and sold in May 1955 and it was indeed a Harrington body.
Michael Wadman
30/08/11 – 19:21
Many thanks for that information, Michael. I often saw the smart AEC Regals of Surrey Motors in their primrose/brown livery during my schooldays in the Croydon area, and I did wonder if CPK 168 originated with them, but couldn’t find out much about the fleet history. I am surprised that this coach dated from as long ago as 1937, and it is a tribute to the quality of AECs and Harringtons of that period that it was still around in the early 1960s. In fact, given the standard of mechanical care meted out by Margo, its survival was little short of miraculous. Sadly, the Surrey Motors concern was taken over by Epsom Coaches (H. R. Richmond) in 1980. Tempora mutantur.
Roger Cox
01/09/11 – 07:42
Strictly speaking, Epsom Coaches only acquired the licences of Surrey Motors, not the business itself. Surrey Motors Limited also owned property and this became the primary concern after 1980. The original company (incorporated Feb 17th 1919) still exists as a subsidiary of the Stock Exchange quoted property company Panther Securities PLC but the only (and very tenuous) connection nowadays with the PSV world is that one of the shareholders in Panther also has shares in a number of bus companies.
Nigel Turner
Re Surrey Motors. I see two of their preserved vehicles every year at the Goodwood (Motor) Circuit Revival Meeting. Pictures are here at this link. I’m certain that you know these coaches well but they will remind readers of the livery. Both are in splendid condition.
Richard Leaman
06/09/11 – 07:28
Michael has dated the coach CPK 168 to 1937, but my records for it show it in fact to have been 2 years older, so new in 1935. It was one of four such coaches delivered to Surrey Motors that year, with fleet numbers 13-16, and registered CPH 624/5 and CPK 168/9. Dates I have are 5/35 for the CPH pair, 7/35 for the CPK ones, and these are shown as such in the list of pre-war AEC Regal chassis published in 2010 by the PSV Circle (publication C1131). The earlier dates also match with Surrey registration issues – during 1937 they had gone on to issue all the F multiples (FPA to FPL) and moved on as far as GPC. The Margo story is quite a complex one and starts with the activities of Nathan and Rose Margo who by 1920 had founded the business that was later to become Bexleyheath Transport. Several other members of the family ran other businesses later – I have some notes on the subject which I will look out and provide a summary during the next few days.
Derek Jones
28/10/11 – 14:40
Margos acquired the vehicle from Simpson of Penge in November 1960 who purchased it from Surrey Motors in May 1955. I believe it was finally withdrawn and scrapped in December 1961
Graham Wright
29/10/11 – 12:26
Was it not Margos who ordered a large batch of Bristol LH/Plaxton coaches and then cancelled them when they were built? I drove DWT 641H at Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury and I recall that Moxons at Oldcoates had DWT 643H.
Philip Carlton
30/10/11 – 14:51
It may also be of interest that in February 1948 Surrey Motors sent CPK 168 to Watson & sons, Lowestoft for a complete body overhaul also adding one seat to become C33F. Further refurbishment was carried out by Harringtons in 1951. The vehicle was converted to diesel (probably 7.7 litre) by AEC in 1953. Articles about Surrey Motors of Sutton can be found in Buses Extra Nos 2 & 22 if that helps.
Graham Wright
02/11/11 – 16:10
The Margo story is worthy of a book on it’s own. I worked for Atlas Coaches of Edgware run by Michael Margo and his cousin Tony Plaskow. Michael was Cyril’s son who I believe was really called Isadore. Isadore and Gerald were the executors to Nathan’s will when he died in 1959. Louis (Lou) Margo owned Margos of Streatham, later renamed International Coachlines. He was assisted by his sons Nigel and Dudley. Bernard and Gerald Margo ran Bexleyheath Transport and I understand that Sally Margo operated as Paynes of Croydon. I am still in contact with Ronnie Dalton who still operates from the Nursery Road premises as International Coaches and worked for the Margo family for many years. There was also Malcolm Margo, these days known as Malcolm Morris with transport interests in the Channel Islands and another brother who I cannot recall who briefly worked as Transport Manager for Kirby’s of Bushey Heath in the 1970’s.
Chris Sullivan
10/01/12 – 07:27
It was Alan Margo who worked for Kirbys. Bernard is his brother and their father was Charlie Margo who owned Margos of Penge. Alan and Bernard ran that company with their dad and later became known as Europa Coaches of Penge
Ronnie Dalton
04/07/12 – 05:21
Margos of Thorton Heath? that brings back old memories like when I was driving out of Merton for London Transport during a 60,s overtime ban a few of us went to Margo,s at Thorton Heath with the intention of recouping some of our lost earnings (from OT). My mates made a B line for the AEC Regents (preselect versions) I was too slow and got left with an ex Eastern Counties high bridge Bristol K to operate a school shuttle to swimming baths in Chelsea. I made my way there via Streatham and I shall never forget the cheering and clapping from the crews and inspectors outside A K garage as I made a pigs ear of the gear changes, thank God I mastered it by the time I got to Chelsea.
Depot
15/07/12 – 17:17
Apart from Margo’s I remember (rather have dragged up memories from my schooldays over 60 years ago, 1948) Timpsons, Bourne & Balmer (Taken over by Timpsons) and much more ephemeral, Omnia coaches of Holmesdale Road Bromley. (grey matter now in gear), in particular not in own dark green were 2 ex LT (LTL) single deckers (Scooters) still in red with no signwriting petrol (still) used on schools work GO xxxx series from 1929-31. Can find little info on the latter company and even less photos (nil). I think (only think) they were taken over by Metrobus of Orpington.
Steve Oxbrow
06/10/12 – 07:36
This vehicle was used in the mid 1930s to show a device that if fitted to the front wheels would stop a person been crushed. A few still images from a short film of the time can be seen at this link
Philip Howard
07/10/12 – 08:29
Thanks, Philip, and thanks also to Chris H who has put a link on Flikr to this site. Interestingly, the picture shows the Regal with its original Harrington front wing arrangement.
Roger Cox
11/12/12 – 10:01
Re comment 2/11/11 Paynes Coaches was owned and operated by Jack Payne from 1 Kemble Road Croydon packing up in the early 70s, and next door to him at number 3 was Taffy Thomas who ran just the one coach, the last being a Ford Plaxton 52 seater which he sold in November 1975.
Michael W
29/01/13 – 18:01
Margos provided a school coach from Mackenzie Road in Beckenham (just down the hill from their base) to Bromley Technical High School near Keston. I used it from 1960 to 1965 at 12/6d per term. My Mum would make me eat porridge in the mornings and what with being bounced around on the journey and the smell of the pig farm alongside the school, made for some interesting mornings! The driver was a Mr Farminer who would make sure we all sat in our allotted seats. On occasions a smaller coach would arrive and there would be a bun fight for the fewer seats. Inevitably there would be 3 of us on a double seat and 6 across the back. The best bit was sucking Jubbly’s on the way home in the summer!!
Terry Hammond
24/02/13 – 08:21
My Father and Mother started the business known as Margo’s Coaches Streatham soon after their marriage in 1945, shortly after they purchased some land in Thornton Heath to garage the coaches. The main stay of the business was Workmen contracts School runs and Private hire. I joined the business straight after leaving school at the age of 14 when we expanded the business providing coaches for the incoming tourist trade, working with companies like Thomas Cook, Globus Gateway and Miki Travel. During the period that I was managing director we had a number of related subsidiaries: South London Bus Company Trans World Coaches ltd Margo’s Luxury Coaches Streatham Ltd International Coach Lines Ltd Trans World Coaches Ltd was sold to Trafalgar Tours International in 1981 at which time I severed all my connection with the business.
No name given
30/09/13 – 08:00
I met Malcolm Margo in 1990 where he replied to one of my advertisements. Here began a long friendship. From memory his brother Michael was the only member of the family operating coaches out of South London. Malcolm and his cousins by then had pulled out of operating coaches. By contrast Malcolm took more interest in buying, selling, swapping coaches, cars, trucks sometimes under hilarious circumstances. In later years he enjoyed Guernsey where he carried on trading. Unforgettable character.
Anon
20/03/15 – 09:21
Malcolm Margo/Morris legend lives on in West Africa. Bus operation, Trucking, Taxis, petrol stations. One of his apprentices. Readers you would never understand and I don’t want you too! A good man that taught me a lot. Never understood! Margo coaches in West Africa Not quite under a different guise….Anon too much history.
John
07/08/18 – 06:16
I am surprised there is no mention of Margo’s Coaches located next to Brentford railway station. They were certainly there from 1966 to 1972. Their coaches four front wheels (singles) and the usual twins at the rear. The coach colour was an attractive redish brown. One of the Margo family was with me on National Service in the RAF in 1954 – 1956.
Colin Hodgson
08/08/18 – 06:03
Colin those would be Bedford VAls like this one which had been moved on, when photographed, to Blaydonian. //www.sct61.org.uk/zzvyt430g
John Lomas
28/05/20 – 07:18
When I was a lad of around 14 I worked at the Thornton Heath yard cleaning busses for the grand sum of one pound a week! If I remember they had the old Summer Holliday RT. Which eventually was sold without the front of its roof. This was removed to replace another that had low bridge damage. I was given by one of the mechanics, the AEC badge from its gearbox. Now, if the company is still running, you still owe me around four weeks wages!
Roger Josling
29/05/20 – 06:49
You’re right, Roger. They had RT316 from November 1963 to March 1966, when it went for scrap. They also had RT320 for much the same period. However, RT400 lasted from 1963 until 1969.
Chris Hebbron
24/01/21 – 06:30
I remember at least 2 of the RTs that were in Summer Holiday. It was painted grey I think and the other was red as in the film. The RTs in the film were RT2305, RT2366 and RT4326.
Dave Jell
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
18/08/21 – 06:02
I recently learnt of Ronnie Dalton passing. Probably a year or so out of date. A coach operator legend with pedigree. The Thornton Heath Depot a much smaller place without him. Steven has no doubt taken charge.
I well remember these Regals from my childhood in the Gosport area between 1949 and 1952. The very first Regal 4 – the Arabic numeral denoted the installation of a four cylinder engine – was converted in June 1930 from a stock Regal chassis simply by replacing the 7.4 litre six cylinder petrol engine with the four cylinder 5.1 litre petrol used in the Monarch and Mercury goods ranges. However, sales of the new model were very modest in comparison with the main competing four cylinder offerings, the Leyland Lion and Dennis Lancet. In March 1933 an oil engine option became available for the Regal 4, initially of 5.35 litres capacity but soon increased to 6.6 litres, which enhanced the market appeal of the model. Provincial took an interest and ordered eight, CG 9606-9613, numbered (rather illogically, though this might have reflected the 1934 delivery dates) as 23/24/29/30/25/26/27/28, with Harrington B32R bodywork. These Regals went on to acquire a legendary reputation in enthusiast circles. In 1945/46 the four cylinder engines in these buses were replaced by 7.7 litre six cylinder units. Between 1953 and 1955 four of the batch were rebuilt to forward entrance format and then, in the years from 1957 to 1962, all eight received new Reading bodies, varying in capacity from FB33F to FB35F.
The final two rebuilds, CG 9607 and 9612 had bodies partially constructed by Provincial and completed by Reading. At the end of 1966 the redoubtable manager, Mr H Orme White, who had begun his Provincial career at the Great Grimsby Street Tramways Company, retired at the age of 81 after 30 years at Gosport, and the inexorable decline of the Gosport & Fareham business then began. Under the new manager, withdrawals of the Regals took place between 1966 and 1970, Provincial Traction having been sold off in the interim period to the Wiles Group, later renamed the Swain Group, part of the Hanson Trust, in 1969. The title picture above was given to me in 2006 by David Whitaker, the owner of the also illustrated 1961 rebuilt survivor, CG 9607, and it shows Nos 25/24/23, CG 9610/9607/9606, possibly not long after delivery in 1934. I did initially wonder if the photograph had been taken at Hoeford, but the unidentified double decker in the background is not a Provincial vehicle, though it certainly appears to be contemporary with the second half of the 1930s. More information about these Regals may be found at this link. Click on the arrow near the bottom of the page and then select “Provincial AEC Regals” from the list that appears.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
13/12/20 – 07:16
I remember these very well, especially in the original form. I used them rarely as we used the double deck 1 and 3 services. At the age of ten, I accompanied my family to Malta for three years, and on return found the rebodied examples running around. I am not sure how extensive the rebuild was, as clearly the front had changed and so had the windows and seats, but the windows were very narrow for the late 1950s, and the rear ends seemed unchanged.
