Tag: Kingston upon Hull Corporation

Hull Corporation – Sunbeam MF2B – RKH 102/15 – 102/15

Hull Corporation RKH 102 Sunbeam MF2B Trolley Bus

Hull Corporation RKH 115 Sunbeam MF2B Trolley Bus
Photographs by ‘unknown’ if you took these photos please go to the copyright page.

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
Sunbeam MF2B
1954 (102) 1955 (115)
Roe H30/24D

The final batch of Kingston upon Hull Corporation trolleybuses, comprised a batch of 15 production and one prototype Sunbeam MF2B’s with Roe 54 seat highbridge bodywork. Due to the date of the prototype entering service in 1953, the whole batch were known as "Coronation" They were designed by the General Manager of KHCT, Mr G H Pulfrey, and the bodies were built to his design by Charles H Roe, of Crossgates, Leeds.
They were designed for one man operation, but in fact were never so used. The bodies were of 8′ width and featured front entrances, ahead of the front wheels and a central exit; internally they were fitted with two staircases, and a periscope was fitted to allow the driver to see how may seats were available on the upper deck, without leaving his seat. Another new feature in Hull was the use of automatic trolley retrievers, to assist with rewiring dislodged trolley poles.
It is believed that the 16 "Coronations" were always allocated to Cottingham Road Garage, working the Chanterlands Avenue and Beverley Road routes (61 and 63). Their working lives were comparatively short being only 9 to 11 years. Despite their short lives, none were sold for use elsewhere, but some Motors and electrical equipment were sold to Bradford, the remainder going for scrap. It is a shame that none of these fine vehicles were preserved.
The two photographs show number 102 (RKH 102), working route 61 on Chanterlands Avenue at the Goddard Avenue turning circle, this was the terminus of the 65 short working. It is on the outward journey. The second photograph shows sister vehicle 115 (RKH 115), In Ferensway, Hull city centre, passing the (then) Royal Station Hotel, whilst working a special service. The streamline livery of Hull Corporation, is shown to best effect on these vehicles.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton

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What superb vehicles these Hull trolleybuses were, and to a unique design too. I remember them so well from my RAF days at Patrington (1955/6) and of course they were in their prime then. What a tragedy that, if they had to be withdrawn early, they couldn’t have been sold as complete runners to Bradford. With five or six years remaining for the Bradford system they would have been a fine sight in the lovely blue and cream of the last trolleybus network in the Country – ah well, we can dream.

Chris Youhill

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Ref the Bradford comment, lets play ‘what if’s’ for a moment!.
If we assume that going from a two door to front door only layout ( i.e. as per Atlantean or Fleetline) would gain 10 seats – 2 x doubles on each deck in place of the stairs + a double in place of the door that would take it up to a 64 seater. Extend the body in the rear overhang by one full bay would gain another row of seats on each deck which now gives us a 72 seat 30 foot bus. Sounds drastic?, perhaps – but not as drastic as building a complete new body which is what Bradford did only two years earlier on the ex Mexborough chassis and even then only finishing up with a vehicle with less seats at greater cost. Perhaps we could then have also seen a One Man Operated trolleybus as originally intended?.

By the way – is it me or does anyone else think that the Coronations bear a strong resemblance to the AEC Q type trolleybus?

Andrew

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I talked, a month ago, about AEC cul-de-sacs – but often a design is years ahead of itself. Could be this is just such an example.

Sometimes a vehicle morphs into someone else’s.
Daimler Roadliner   became:
Dennis Falcon V     became:
Duple 425             became:
Dennis R series

The Bristol RE became:
Ward Dalesman GRX and Dennis Falcon H/HC

Did you know, though, that the last Sunbeam motor bus was a Sunbeam Regent – the trolleybus side was sold separately!!!

David Oldfield

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The decision to abandon Hull’s trolleybus network was made in 1959, but although the trolleybuses were making a healthy profit, passenger numbers were on the decline, as more journeys were being made into the B zone, whilst the trolleybuses were only operating within the A zone. In 1934, the well known co-ordination agreement with East Yorkshire took effect and the tram routes in the B zone were abandoned and replaced by motor buses. Hull could have had a much larger trolleybus network, but for two reasons. The first being the co-ordination agreement, and secondly the cost of extending the overhead equipment. Had the trams not been curtailed, the trolleybuses would almost certainly have operated within the B zone also. This could have also seen EYMS trolleybuses, what a thought!

Keith Easton

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A wonderful thought indeed Keith – but I imagine no through workings to Beverley as that would have been pushing the clearance miracle under The Bar just too far !!

Chris Youhill

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Oh, I don’t know, Chris. You remember the principle of the conduit trams in London!

Stephen Ford

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Indeed Stephen, I remember the London conduit system very well. On frequent childhood holidays in South London I spent many hours wonderment in watching the procedure for changing from overhead to conduit at the south end of Streatham High Road on the A23. Any such trolleybus scheme for the Beverley Bar would, I’m afraid, have been stamped on heavily at the planning stage in that very conservative ancient town.

Chris Youhill

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With all the hoo-ha over satellite dishes in the Avenues, from the residents association, I very much doubt that trolleybuses would be allowed along Chanterlands Avenue these days; let alone Beverley! Seriously, though, trolleybuses working around Hessle, Anlaby, Willerby and Cottingham would have been serious contenders for, perhaps circular, services to and from Hull.

Keith Easton

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As an aside, I notice that Hull was another (trolley) bus organisation which did not really consider visitors to the city in terms of blind displays. Enormous numbers and an almost begrudging display of the destination, and this was the ’50’s! Whilst it could be argued that pre-war London Transport intermediate blind displays were over the top, they did at least consider the native and visiting passenger. Smart vehicles, though, and nice to see a general manager ploughing his own furrow.

Chris Hebbron

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Hello Chris, please see my comments on the AEC Regent III, HAT 471, for an explanation of Hull’s post-war blinds. Pre-war blinds in Hull were really quite informative, giving inner and outer terminals, with the main road(s) traversed, and the route number. For an example see the rear blind on Sunbeam W, number 80 (that will be posted 25/09). I must agree with post-war blinds though, but as a native Hullensian, we knew which route numbers went where, but it was not easy for visitors, but most Hull folk were friendly anyway.

Keith Easton

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Interesting to read that these vehicles were intended for one-man-operation, given that this was not to be legal on double deckers for another 12/13 years; I would have thought that in 1953 O-M-O was fairly uncommon even on single deckers!

Dave Towers

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The Coronations were also used on service 62 – I used service 62 every day to go to school. No. 101 did a six week stint on every route when it first entered service although the Hessle Road stay was cut short because it couldn’t cope with the very heavy loads.
The photo of 115 shows in Paragon Square on the DOLRS tour which covered every route and garage. No. 115 was newly repainted. There are other photos which show it in Holderness Road garage and at North Bridge.

Malcolm Wells

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26/04/12 – 06:17

Keith, I think that RKH 102 is pictured at the end of Chanterlands Avenue, entering the Bricknell Avenue roundabout, just before it reaches Goddard Avenue. In the mid-1950s the roundabout was quite new, prior to which the trolleybuses used to sweep majestically round the bend into Chants North! The site of the pre-fabs in the background is now occupied by sheltered homes and the bus shelter at far right is now the Rainhill Road stop (opposite Murrayfield Road).

Malcolm Burke

Hull Corporation – Sunbeam W – GRH 356 – 80

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport - Sunbeam W Trolleybus - GRH 356- Black& White

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport - Sunbeam W Trolleybus - GRH 356- Colour

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1945
Sunbeam W
Roe H31/29R

In order to undertake the final tram replacement along Hessle Road, in 1945. The final trolleybus route commenced on 1st of July. To operate this route 18 trolleybus chassis were purchased from Sunbeam. The first 12 were bodied by Brush of Loughborough, but the final 6 were bodied by Leeds-based Charles Roe. Number 80 is one of this final batch, which entered service in November, 1945.
Originally the seating layout was H30/26R, but along with most of the earlier trolleybuses it was upseated to H31/29R configuration in 1948.
The black and white photo shows no 80 operation along Anlaby Road, near to the Boulevard, the latter being the terminus of route 71, which, incidentally, had the only trolleybus reverser on the whole system, located at Malm Street. 80 is operating the main 69 service, in the outbound direction. The blinds are of interest, as the front blind is the 1942 wartime version, but the rear blind is the original black on white type. It is carrying a healthy load of passengers despite being on a 5 minute headway.
The colour photo shows it returning to the city centre on Newland Avenue service 62. It is seen in King Edward Street nearing the terminus. Considering the austerity of the period when they were built, they are a very handsome vehicle.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton

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The front blind in the top photograph is not the wartime version – the wartime version was a large number only – the number and via only display was agreed in December 1945 and gradually introduced from 1947. The rear blind is not as originally made as the Anlaby Road service was to be numbered 65 (Hessle Road would have been 66) but the renumbering in February 1942 changed this to 99. The blind was changed simply by altering the number.

Malcolm Wells

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Hi Malcolm, many thanks for your input clearing up details on trolleybuses, a lot of the information was mainly from memory, and it ain’t always what it used to be!

Keith Easton

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The reference to service 99 in my previous comment was a typing error – it was 69.

Malcolm Wells

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Hull`s first batch of trolleybuses were Leyland TB4s with composite Weymann bodies. Subsequent batches by Crossley and Leyland were bodied by East Lancs and Cravens, both well known for metal framed bodywork. If this is so, does anyone know why Hull changed policy here, only to revert to timber framing (Roe) post war?

John Whitaker

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My initial reaction would be that Hull’s East Lancs and Cravens bodies were timber-framed. I don’t know in this specific instance, but it was generally preferred in trolleybuses as metal-framed trolleybuses had to have low voltage (instead of traction voltage) lighting and in those days that required a motor-generator set which was extra weight, expense and something else to maintain, so not preferred.
Huddersfield had many East Lancs-bodied trolleybuses but only ever one metal-framed one. The motor-generator set and the associated noise was the reason why (I learnt this from Roy Brook’s excellent book on that system.)

David Beilby

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I`m pretty sure you are right Dave re the Hull Craven and East Lancs trolleybus bodies, although they must have been to special order to be timber framed.
Motor generator sets are not the only way of lighting a trolleybus with metal bodies though, Bradford, from 1935 dispensing with this item but still retaining English Electric and Weymann all-metal bodies. I can supply more detail on this if anyone is interested, but Bradford was a trolleybus pioneer in several ways at this time.

John Whitaker

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The debate about use of timber &/or metal framed bodies for trolleybuses is both interesting and, for the most part, true. The premise, however, isn’t. It presupposes that the move to Roe composite from any other metal was retrograde. The fact is that Roe composite bodies right up to the end (1968) were far better quality than many metal framed bodies – and that includes Roe’s own (Park Royal designed) metal framed bodies which gradually replaced them.
Evidence also suggests that the quality of Craven bodies could be suspect and that rebodying of such vehicles was not unknown.

David Oldfield

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Further to David Oldfield’s comment, Nottingham had a series of 45 Craven bodied AEC Regents supplied in 1938, and I understand they were always regarded as much inferior in build quality to the earlier (1936) Metro-Cammell equivalents. And the inferiority of the Craven bodied first generation DMUs for British Railways was legendary!

Stephen Ford

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Bradford was indeed a pioneer with trolleybus development, as it worked with the English Electric Company to produce a new trolleybus control system called series dynamic and rheostatic braking (SD) in 1936. This SD control system became the standard adopted by the Ministry of War Transport for the Sunbeam W/Karrier W trolleybuses built from 1943 onwards. Most of the post war trolleybuses built had the SD system of control, which was the case with the London Transport BUT 9641T BUT Q1 class. These were significantly different to the London prewar fleet that all had regenerative braking control.

Richard Fieldhouse

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No premise intended David!
Horses for courses and all that. I am one of the greatest Roe admirers, as were Bradford Corporation, with their BUTs 740-751 !

John Whitaker

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03/02/12 – 06:26

Pontypridd Urban District Council Transport needed extra buses during World War II for the local town services (electrified) as the petrol buses were in great demand to transport workers to the then rapidly expanding Treforest Industrial Trading Estate, (war effort) near Pontypridd.
The Trolleybuses ran a regular route from Treforest village 2 miles south of Pontypridd (not to be confused with Tref Ind Est, 4 miles south of Pontypridd)through to Pontypridd and on to Cilfynydd (pronounced Kilvunith for non welsh speakers) 2 miles north of Pontypridd where the buses turned for the return journey.

Mike Ashcroft

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05/02/12 – 06:44

The Hull Cravens bodies on Crossley TDD4 chassis were of composite construction in accordance with Hull Corporation Transport’s specification TC2 as were the East Lancashire bodied Leyland TB7s. The Cravens bodies received major overhauls in the early 1950s (no. 46 excepted which was withdrawn in December 1954). In addition, several received new or rebuilt platforms by 1959.
Hull’s Sunbeam F4s nos 91-100 had 8 feet wide Roe bodies similar to Bradford’s 740-751 but the interiors of the Hull vehicles were far superior to the Bradford bodies. I was surprised on the first visit to Bradford in 1961 (when 91 to 100 were still in service in Hull)at the difference.

Malcolm Wells

Hull Corporation – Leyland TB2 – CRH 928 – 3

Hull Corporation Leyland TB2 Trolleybus CRH 928_lr

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
Leyland TB2
1937
Weymann H28/26R

The first trolleybus route in Hull commenced in June, 1937. It replaced the tram route SWC, but not directly, as a short lived motorbus service, numbered 12 ran in the interval between the end of the trams and the start of the trolleybuses. The route ran along Spring Bank, Spring Bank West and Chanterlands Avenue. A new route number series for trolleybuses was instituted at this time, the first number being 61, along with a short working to Goddard Avenue turning circle, which was numbered 61A. This latter was renumbered to 65 in 1943.
To start the service, along with the Newland Avenue (62, 62A) routes, 26 trolleybus chassis were purchased from Leyland. These were of the TB2 type, equivalent to the Titan TD2 chassis. Numbers were 1 to 26, which commenced a separate series from the motorbuses. Registrations were CRH 925-50. The trolleybuses carried the newly introduced streamline livery.
During the war, in 1941, due to service cuts four trolleybuses (1 to 4) were loaned to Pontypridd UDC, being returned the following year. No 3 is shown at the Old Bridge in Pontypridd, seeming to be causing interest to the gentleman on the bridge! Although still carrying the streamline livery, the white has been over painted in a light blue colour, making the livery a two-tone blue. Of note is the pre-war “HULL” on the upper deck side panels, and “Corporation Transport” being on white lozenges.
I have seen this batch also quoted as being of the TB4 type, but if anyone can provide a definitive answer I would be grateful. Chassis numbers were in the series 12280 to 12306.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton

I wonder who over-painted the white to light blue – Hull or Pontypridd? Interesting photo – not many wartime photos exist, especially of those who went to foreign climes for a while!
Headlamps restricted and white painting around the front edge, but no window netting. Maybe they didn’t feel there was a strong likelihood of air raids in that area.
Pontypridd must have had an acute shortage of buses/trolleybuses in the war, for Portsmouth Corporation sent several trolleybuses there, too. Imagine having to tow and steer these vehicles such long distances!

Chris Hebbron

I believe that Hull was responsible for the over-painting, as native buses and trolleybuses were also treated similarly. I cant say about window netting, as I’m not quite that old! Hull certainly did have some air-raids during the war, and lost 35% of the bus fleet in May, 1941. No trolleybuses were affected, however.

Keith Easton

The over painting was carried out by the Transport Department over a period of ten days in late May 1941. All trolleybuses were parked along main roads at night to prevent their loss if a garage was hit by bombs but the white could be seen from the air and the undertaking was asked to do it, Geoff O’Connell (whose father was an inspector) told me that he remembered seeing TB7 no 52 being all blue at the front and offside but with normal livery on the other!

Malcolm Wells

Hi Malcolm, can we can confirm that these trolleys were actually TB4 and not TB2? I have seen them quoted with both model types but the date would make TB4 more likely. I have a photocopy sheet from Geoff, which shows the layout of the original Black on white blinds, with routes 61, 61A, 62, 62A, 62B, 62C, 63, 63A, 64, 64A, 65 and 66. Of course the 65 and 66 were not operated as such, but were the 62B and 62C ever operated? The ‘A’ route numbers are shown as being blanked out along with 65 and 66. You mention the Anlaby Road route as being 99, but I have no record of this, was it actually used in service?

Keith Easton

Do not know if the following will help but the dates below are for when the TDs first appeared.

TD1 – 1927        TD2 – 1932        TD3 – 1933        TD4 – 1935 
TD5 – 1937        TD6 – 1938        TD7 – 1939

Spencer

The reference to service 99 was a typing error – it was 69.
Leylands 1 to 26 were designated TD4 in the original tender from Leyland Motors in July 1936 and this was quoted in the minutes but was subsequently altered to TB4.
The 62B and 62C were never operated but no reason for doing so has ever come to light although a difference in headways might have contributed – there were more trolleybuses per hour on Beverley Road than on Newland Avenue.

Malcolm Wells

I’m sure most people who have posted on this subject already know this but there are some really fantastic short videos on YouTube concerning Hull trolleys and motor buses from before WW2 to the present day. It seems Hull has been more fortunate than many places in having such a wonderful pictorial transport record!

Chris Barker

25/02/14 – 16:12

Having lived in Hull from 1946 to 1963, I can clarify the route number situation.
61 was Chantlands Avenue (up to Cottingham Road)
65 was the shortened version of 61 terminating about 200 yds from the start of Chantlands Avenue- peak only
62 was Princes Av/Newlands Av (to Cottingham Road)
66 was the shortened version of 62 terminating at Pearson’s Park.
63 was Beverley Road (up to Cottingham Road)
67 was the shortened version of 63 up to Pearson’s Park – peak only
All of the above originally ran on the pre-war Leyland Buses, but were replaced in 1950 by the forward control dual entrance and dual staircase Sunbeams – which were supposed to have counters on the stairs with the forward staircase for ascending and the mid-bus staircase for descending- this was not a success.
64 was Holderness Road
68 was the shortened version up to East Park – peak only.
These used the 1940 Leyland vehicles for the duration of the trolleybus system
69 Analby Road – almost to Boothferry Park
(There were 169 and 269 shortened but these did not come about until after the end of the trolleybus system)
70 Hessle Road – almost to City Limits
(a shortened version (170 or 270) ran but only after the end of the trolleybus system.
All 69’s and 70’s used 1948 vehicles which (from memory) were B.E.T. (which was a joint A.E.C./Leyland venture) for the duration of the trolleybus system.

Frank Burgess

26/02/14 – 07:52

The joint Leyland and AEC was actually BUT. They also supplied engines for early railway Diesel Multiple Units. The sight of Hull trolleys in Pontypridd must have confused any potential German Spies!!!!

Philip Carlton

26/02/14 – 12:13

Chris Hebbron is certainly right in an early comment that Pontypridd needed extra vehicles during the war. However the Portsmouth and Hull trolley-buses were probably not operated concurrently. The main caption above mentions the Hull quartet on loan to Pontypridd in 1941 to 1942. The Portsmouth quartet went to Wales in August 1942, so presumably were replacements for the Hull ones returning north. Pontypridd gained an extra six seats per vehicle. But they lost out on standardisation, as two Portsmouth vehicles were AEC 663T, and two were Sunbeam MS3s. Two had MCCW, and two EEC bodies, one on each make of chassis. Also two had EEC motors, but one regen the other augmented field, the other two having BTH motors, one regen, the other regulated field. Such was Portsmouth’s desire to experiment! None of them had traction batteries, and had been in storage at Portsmouth since c.1940 so that they wouldn’t block the streets in the event of power cuts due to bombings etc. Three of them stayed at Pontypridd until November 1945, the fourth returning in August 1946.

Michael Hampton

26/02/14 – 16:40

Can I provide the following route details at 1 January 1958:
61 Chanterlands Avenue North
62 Newland Avenue (Cottingham Road)
63 Endike Lane – much further north than Cottingham Road – there were no turning facilities at the eastern part of Pearson Park on Beverley Road
64 Ings Road
65 Goddard Avenue – short working of the 61 – originally the main service – was used at peaks and during the day in later years
66 Pearson Park – short working of the 62 – used only in days immediately preceding holidays such as Christmas
68 East Park – short working of the 68 – alternate trolleybuses turned here from 29 June 1952
69 Meadowbank Road – extended from the roundabout at the Boothferry Road junction on 30 March 1947
70 Dairycoates – well short (over a mile ) of the city boundary.
71 Boulevard – short working of the 69 – used for rubgy league specials on Saturdays (mainly)
The twenty Leyland TB7s (nos 47-66) were delivered in the Summer of 1939 – Nos 47/48/51/52 were licensed from 1 August 1939. By December 1960 only seven were left (48/54/55/61/63/64/66) and several Crossley TDD4s were sent to Holderness Road to maintain the 64/68 service. All seven were withdrawn on 28 January 1961 when service 70 was withdrawn.
KHCT never operated BUT trolleybuses – the 1948 vehicles were Sunbeam F4 with Roe H60R bodies (8 feet wide). All ten entered service on 1 June 1948 but were later split between the 69 and 70.
The dual door trolleybuses were Sunbeam MFsBs with Roe H54D bodies. No. 101 arrived in later 1952 whilst the further fifteen entered service from November 1954 to May 1955. they were intended for one-man operation using tokens and tickets – no cash and Mr Pulfrey, the GM, wanted the 63 to be the trial route but due to Union opposition they never ran in that form. No. 116 was fitted with an electronic counter on both stairs but it was not successful. No. 116 also had a Grant farebox fitted but never ran in service as such. They gained the nick name “Coronations” as no. 101 entered service in January 1953.
The service 67 was the renumbered 63A which ran to Chanterlands Avenue North via Beverley Road and Cottingham Road at times during the war and for a short time thereafter. The Original 63A was intended for short workings to Haworth Arms. KHCT wanted a roundabout here so that alternate vehicles on Beverley Road could turn here but nothing came of this partly due to the start of the war.
The 61/62 were the preserve of Leyland TB4s pre-war whilst the Crossleys ran the 63 – they were kept apart in Cottingham Road garage!
Nos 1 to 4 were recalled from Pontypridd to permit the Anlaby Road tram route to be converted to trolleybus operation.
Full details of the fleet list were posted on this site by Keith Easton some time ago and can be viewed at this link.

Malcolm Wells

There is is also a very in depth article that maybe of interest at the following link Bus, Trolleybus and Tram Routes of Kingston upon Hull Corporation

Peter

Hull Corporation – Leyland TB7CN – FRH 564 – 64

Hull Corporation - Leyland TB7CN - FRH 564 - 64

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1940
Leyland TB7CN
East Lancs H28/26R

The Holderness Road trolleybus route conversion was about to get underway, but the outbreak of World War 2, intervened. Much of the overhead equipment was already on hand or on order at this point, added to which the tramway was getting in need of replacement. Hull Corporation therefore applied for Parliamentary permission to convert the route to trolleybus operation. Permission was forthcoming and the route was duly converted. To operate the service, which was given the route numbers 64 and 64A. The latter was a short working to East Park, used mainly to turn duplicates off the main route which terminated at the Ings Road junction. To operate the service twenty Leyland TB7CN chassis were purchased and these were bodied by East Lancashire Coachbuilders, a company new to Hull Corporation. Initially the seating was H28/26R, but was later up-seated to H31/29R. Bus number 64 (FRH 564) is shown operating along Holderness Road. The photograph may have been taken in Coronation year, 1953, if the flags and bunting on the buildings are anything to go by.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton

Just curious about this TB7CN – TB for Trolleybus, 7 for the 7th model possible the numbers were linked to the Titan TD numbers, but what did the CN stand for?

Spencer

You have me on this one, all I can say is that this type was on a fleet list obtained from Geoff O’Connell, whose knowledge of KHCT was second to none. He was the Assistant GM at the time I knew him.
I believe that the TB series numbers were linked to the Titan series, with regard to chassis improvements, but I’ve not seen any confirmation of this.

Keith Easton

The batch was just designated TB7 – I have copies of the specification and tender forms from Leyland. All twenty were built in 1939 being delivered in the late Summer of 1939. Nos 47/8/51/2 entered service on 31 August 1939.
The TB designation was linked with the TD series – the tender for nos 1-26 actually quoted TD4 chassis – later changed to TB4
The Corporation already had permission to convert the route but, owing to the War, no Ministry of Transport inspection would be made it being up to the General Manager to authorise it. The Transport Committee being uncertain about the war situation at first declined to convert the route (originally scheduled for September 1939) and not until February 1940 did it agree.
Geoff O’Connell was never the Assistant GM but was in the Traffic Office.
For more details see my book “Kingston upon Hull Trolleybuses” published by Trolleybooks in 1996.

Malcolm Wells

16/02/20 – 06:14

Just for the record, I was told that Arthur (staff and later Chief) Handley was the only driver that could take North Bridge at speed and keep his trolleys on.
Arthur, a gentle giant died from skin cancer in the early 1980’s just after being made up.

Box501

Hull Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – 7383 RH – 383


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1963
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 
Roe H44/31F

I could say here is a rather poor shot, not too bad at the front of the vehicle faded out and slightly grainy to the rear, or alternatively, I could say this photo was taken on a cold misty morning in March and what an atmospheric shot it is. I will let you decide which is true, I though have the advantage of seeing the original Black & White photograph.
By 1963 most operators were either switching over to rear engined vehicles or were seriously thinking about it.
C H Roe were always known for a more rounded look to their bus bodies but this vehicle is somewhat strange for one of theirs. Very square front and a flat split windscreen, which is very boxy compared to the one to the right. An Alexander bodied vehicle of the same date, a much more rounded appearance a one piece wrap round windscreen and upper deck front window, I think are much more pleasing on the eye. Both of these Atlanteans being PDR1/1s would have had a flat lower deck floor until the rear axle when there would either be a slope or a step to get over it. The PDR1/2 which arrived on the seen in 1964 had a flat floor over and to the rear of the rear axle this was made possible by the use of the Albion Lowlander rear axle.

C H Roe were known for their high quality timber frame bodies and after their take over by Park Royal they did such work and Park Royal concentrated on metal framed designs. During the fifties there was more call for metal frames and Park Royal needed to send some of its work for Roe to do using Park Royal frames – famously the Yorkshire Traction Leyland Tiger rebuilds.
When the Leyland Atlantean was introduced, Park Royal designed a body for the whole group to produce – not unlike the front entrance Bridgemaster, but stretched up to full height. The Bridgemaster was Park Royal’s ugliest design to date, but the Atlantean body excelled in ugliness – looking totally unbalanced. Some wag called them glazed pantechnions!
Park Royal was so involved in mass Routemaster production that all bodies of this design were produced at Leeds. Luckily Park Royal/Roe went on to produce the classic design introduced in quantity in 1968 which essentially continued until the end of Atlantean production.
The Alexander body is actually of a later vintage, the contemporary (first) version being differently ugly. Sheffield had a Motor Show, and unique, example (369). Unsurprisingly Glasgow and Northern General were operators of numbers of these – as was Godfrey Abbott, then a North Cheshire independent, later to be swallowed up by SELNEC.

David Oldfield

Park Royal bodied Atlanteans are so ugly, that they are beautiful, or has time rewritten every line?

Keith Easton

I think in this case I’d rather say “The combination of boxy shape and streamlined livery is so insane that it’s beautiful.”

Peter Williamson

Like a streamlined brick!

Stephen Ford

Try this, then: the first Atlanteans all looked like that: the appearance of the body was dictated by its function, as fitted the taste of the times. The bustle was practical because it gave fullest access: the body could easily be repaired: “streamlining” and flashy paintjobs (Hull) were rather vulgar and reminded you of Seagulls and those funny 50’s coaches with a rudder at the top back (who by?) and GM cars. Very unsixties.
Then came the Liverpool Atlanteans & every local Councillor wanted a fleet like that…..

Joe

The 50s rudder was, of course, the Harrington Dorsal Fin – which, at the risk of being lynched, I personally thought looked ridiculous.

David Oldfield

Useful for stability at speeds over 45mph. The Russians liked them… or at least I recall some lookalikes in Moscow in the 1980’s. Go well with a ZIL!

Joe

I worked on the Atlantean buses as a conductor and driver. They where good buses in their day. I worked on the bus at top of this page on many occasion. This service bus changed from a 58 to a 55 circular bus, on some of them I nearly had to stand up to drive the bus round tight corners.

Mr Wright

I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Wright about heavy Atlantean steering. My experience of this extended to the first examples of 33 feet long Atlanteans with no power steering and 78 seats. We had a large batch of these at Leeds City Transport and, particularly when fully loaded which they often were, it was practically necessary to stand up on tight manoeuvres to turn them – and I am nearly six feet tall. They really were a health and safety risk from that point of view. Also I’m sad, as a devoted Daimler Fleetline lover, to have to admit that the non power assisted 33 foot examples of that make were similarly unacceptable. I once had the embarrassment during a morning peak period of failing to get one of the latter round a temporary hairpin bend in Hunslet – the bus was fully loaded with some ribaldly outspoken clients and their remarks as I literally stood up in the cab to heave it through multiple “shunts” ring in my ears to this day, forty years later.

Chris Youhill

I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with Chris Youhill that the Daimler Fleetline was a nicer bus to drive than the Atlantean. In addition to his comments about heavy steering, early ones were anything but smooth to move from rest with a full load. It wasn’t necessary for the conductor to ask standing passengers to move down inside; the transmission would make sure of that as the vehicle started to move! The appeal/functionality of the ‘bustle is a matter of opinion; the Fleetlines I knew didn’t have them, and, (admittedly for many other reasons), the engineers I worked with found them better vehicles to maintain.
As far as the bodywork is concerned, I recall early lowbridge Atlanteans at Maidstone & District had a semi-offset gangway upstairs; central until about the last three rows of seats and then to the side. I rather think they had Weymann bodies. The flat front was a major reason for M&D to decide on Atlanteans, since they were introduced originally as replacements for the trolley buses in Hastings.

Roy Burke

I hope I’m not going to start disagreeing with Chris Y – we seem to agree on everything else.
Well actually, I don’t disagree! Everything he and Roy have said is absolutely true. They were rubbish, especially when compared with the PD2 and PD3 and Leyland didn’t get it right until the AN68 – when they ended up with the best of the first generation rear-engined deckers. [Of course, the AN68 did benefit by having power-steering and the 0.680 as standard.]
As we’ve said before, Metro-Cammell (MCCW) and Weymann were separate companies with a common marketing company (MCW). Often there were hidden side effects to this, not generally known. One concerned early Atlanteans. MCCW were the bigger “half” and dealt with big runs. The smaller Weymann would deal with smaller runs and more specialist work – including coaches. All early highbridge Atlanteans had Met-Camm bodies and all semi-highbridge bodywork was by Weymann.
This was to get more muddied later on. [Weymann built at least two, small, batches of highbridge for Sheffield Transport in 1962/3.]

David Oldfield

Roy’s mention of Atlanteans replacing the Hastings trolleybuses takes me back to very happy teenage years as a frequent visitor to the resort. As if the modern trolleybuses weren’t magnificent enough the wonderfully evocative fleetname at the time was the icing on the cake – “Hastings Tramways Company.” Also any pretentious ideas the Council may have had about their beautiful and impressive Promenade were chopped down to size by the trolleybus destination blinds, where the lovely bracing thoroughfare was referred to as “Front.”

David, please never fear about disagreement on any topic at all, as the opinions and knowledge of qualified friends are always most welcome.

Chris Youhill

05/08/16 – 06:00

Split window Atlantean terrible bus, draughty loose front window, noisy air driven w/s wiper, cold demisters and heaters, great holes in the floor for pedal, h/b rubber wouldn’t stay down, rigid drivers seat bolted to the floor with minimum cushioning situated five feet in front of the wheels giving a springboard effect if you were on a rough road, plastic peeled off the steering wheel leaving an alloy surface (hell in winter). Front wheels slid away on a wet surface you had to put your foot on the console to get it round a sharp bend, with Insp. Chris Hudson spraying deicer on the INSIDE of the w/s as you pulled out of Ferensway station. I’m sure there’s more but it’s been 35 years since I left.
At least they didn’t suffer from fuel surges or power steering failure going round corners like Scania’s

Pip

05/08/16 – 13:58

Going back to David Oldfield’s first post, above, Glasgow only had the one square-bodied Atlantean/Alexander (LA1), and Godfrey Abbott only had secondhand Atlanteans and Fleetlines, since running double-deckers on predominantly schools services was very much a latter-day experience for them. The only square-bodied Atlantean/Alexander I have managed to connect with them is KCN182, new 1/60 to Gateshead & District. They may have had others.

David Call

05/08/16 – 13:58

How long did the “streamlining” livery last and was that to the end of Hull Corporation’s existence?

Chris Hebbron

07/08/16 – 07:07

Chris,
The ARH-K batch of Atlanteans were the first in the non-streamlined livery that lasted from 1972 to the Cleveland Transit buy-in (c.1989) and then in a version with Yellow relief added to the Stagecoach takeover in c. 1995.

Stephen Allcroft

07/08/16 – 07:07

The streamline livery started to disappear from 1972, when Atlantean 318 (DRH 318L) appeared on the Commercial Motor Show in 1972, with a new Blue and White livery and the fleetname Kingston upon Hull City Transport, this was previewing the local government reforms of 1974, when Corporations were abolished, new vehicles from 1972 appeared in the new livery (slightly different from 318)and old ones embarked on a repainting programme.

Keith Easton

08/08/16 – 06:56

Steve/Keith – Thx.

Chris Hebbron

09/08/16 – 06:14

Further to my earlier comment the repainting was largely complete by 1975 (which was when I really got interested in Hull buses); all vehicles except for the AEC Reliances and the early Atlanteans mainly the 346-95 batches. Consequently the streamline livery finally disappeared from the streets of Hull around 1980.

Keith Easton

10/08/16 – 05:54

Thx, Keith. This must have been the last operator to use the streamline livery principle by a country mile, I’d wager. In fact, how many operators used streamline livery? Being a Southerner, the only one which immediately comes to mind, apart from Hull, was Manchester, Sheffield, Rochdale and, after a fashion, Blackpool Corp’n, but there were others, I suspect.

Chris Hebbron

21/08/16 – 07:44

Hello Stephen, Sorry to have to correct you, but the DRH-L batch, delivered 12/72 were the first to be delivered in the new livery, with 318 in the prototype livery being repainted later to match the remainder of the batch. The earlier batch ARH298-317K were delivered across the new year 1971/2 and were the last to be delivered in the streamline livery, indeed I have photographs of 310 and 313 still in streamline livery in May 1975.

Keith Easton

Hull Corporation – Daimler CVG6 – KVK 970 – 128

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1948
Daimler CVG6
Metro Cammell Weymann H55R

My thanks to Paul Morfitt an expert on K.H.C.T. for information regarding this bus.

“this bus entered service on the 10th June 1961 and was withdrawn in December 1966. It came from Newcastle to cover parts of the trolleybus conversions“

Does anyone have any information of this bus whilst it was at Newcastle?

These ex Newcastle Daimlers were notable for their Birmingham style bodies. Compare this photo with any HOV ### registered Birmingham City Transport Daimler. I think Edinburgh also had some like this.

Simon Avery

To see a Birmingham Daimler registration HOV 845 click here

I think that “timeless elegance” describes this classic style of body – with just a quiet air of superiority. I loved to see them in Hull, where they fitted in perfectly with the Corporation Transport Department’s image. What a magical combination arose from the KHCT and EYMS fleets in those days, and many thanks to the RAF for sending me to Patrington (Spurn Point) for my two years National Service – I couldn’t have asked for anything better.

Chris Youhill

All the second hand Regents, and Daimlers too, were bought for two reasons, firstly, as Paul said, was to facilitate trolleybus replacement, although memory seems to tell me that the Coronation trolleybuses on the 63 (Beverley Road) service were replaced directly by the early Atlanteans.  Secondly, as already noted Hull lost 2/3rds of the fleet due to air raids on 7/8th May, 1941; consequently there were large batches of Regents acquired in the post war period, as replacements. Thus in the 1960’s a large number of Regents were nearing the end of their lives, and KHCT was in the process of introducing OMO to its fleet, having a planned purchasing plan for a large number of Atlanteans which was spread over a period of some 10 years. The various batches of second hand buses were basically stop-gaps until the end of the OMO conversion. Incidentally KHCT was the first Municipal operator to achieve 100% OMO operation on both saloons and ‘deckers. This was achieved in 1972.

Keith Easton

Further to my previous comment, the losses due to Luftwaffe exploits over Hull only 1/3rd of the fleet was lost (actually 35% – 44 vehicles).

Keith Easton

03/08/11 – 16:04

These old Newcastle Daimler were great buses – had preselector gearboxes as well – they were painted dark blue and often had a blue light on next to the destination board!
Travelled a lot in them in the early 1940ties!
My favourites were FVK 198 through to FVK 201!

Stui Beveridge

04/08/11 – 07:18

What was the purpose of the blue light, Stui?

Chris Hebbron

02/10/11 – 14:05

When the Daimlers first appeared local enthusiasts thought them old fashioned mainly due to the curious windscreen arrangement (130 with a Roe body was an honourable exception) – they did not compare with the contemporary Hull Regent IIIs or the EYMS PD1s.
Authority to buy was obtained in May 1961 with a bid limit of £205 per vehicle. There is no mention in the report specifically regarding trolleybus replacement although. My own view is that they were to cover the bodywork problems on the Regent IIIs which were such that the department couldn’t cope and many went to Roe for attention. No buses were withdrawn as a result of their arrival.
Mr Pulfrey had said in May 1960 that he expected the Chanterlands Avenue route to be replaced in 1960 using spare standard 58 seat buses. The 1961 timetable did not mention services 61/65 but included replacements 13/23 but not until July 1962 did that conversion take place.

Malcolm Wells

15/03/12 – 09:30

Hi Chris, sorry for the delay as we are out and about in retirement living mainly in Düsseldorf but in winter on Gran Canaria!
Strangely – the purpose of the blue light next to the front destination board was to show at night they were so called ” Blue buses ” and not the new fangled bright yellow trolley buses.
Just loved travelling on these buses – favourite routes were 1 and 2 – Denton Burn / Cochrane Park / Scrogg Road etc and yes – they were quite advanced as they had pre-selector gearboxes which made life easier for the drivers.
It was wartime and the buses were very often completely packed in the rush hours or when it was pouring with rain – even upstairs – as the unions at that time had no influence on passengers carried!
Upstairs was then a disaster as the passengers were all soaking wet and damp and it was full of smokers and their gaspers! Players Please or Senior Service were favourites and poor dock workers building warships like George V or so sufficed with a cheap 5 fag paper pack of Woodbines!
Has anyone relatives or friends with any decent old Newcastle street scenes showing all these marvellous blue and yellow buses and the dark maroon trams?
Lets have your comments here please?

Stui Beveridge

16/03/12 – 08:38

Thx for the ‘blue light’ v yellow trolleybus explanation, Stui. I assume that there was an extraordinarily large part of the local populace who were colour-blind and/or deaf, not being able to detect the different noise level between the two! Seriously, it’s not commonly known that London trams had three small lights above the destination screen, so that combinations could indicate which route they were on, for the illiterate. Other systems had this, too, with some having different coloured liveries for different routes. Not a lot of use for those like me who were colour-blind!

Chris Hebbron

16/03/12 – 09:55

As many custom car enthusiasts have found to their cost, apart from emergency and specifically exempt vehicles, under current legislation it is illegal to show a blue light that is visible on any part of the to the exterior of the vehicle ‘including the underside’

Ronnie Hoye

16/03/12 – 12:40

Wigan Corporation always had two green lights either side of the destination so that locals caught “their” bus as opposed either Ribble or LUT both of whom used red as a colour as did Wigan. This arrangement lasted until the last buses delivered to Wigan in 1972.

Chris Hough

17/03/12 – 06:18

Regarding the Hull Coronations what a crying shame that none were preserved.

Philip Carlton

23/04/13 – 07:54

I am sure there was an Atlantean at Maspalomas Gran Canaria. Is it still there?

box501

13/10/14 – 17:23

Special or even no lights? Please remember at that time these buses were originally in service between 1939 – 1945 we were in the middle of a deadly serious world war on several fronts simultaneously and had more or less total black out on the streets!
Danger of invasion was later not quite so imminent but it was still there! Life was not a pony farm and quite so funny as it is to-day under the EU and Co!
In occupied Europe life was horrific with daily trains leaving most main cities with cattle trucks packed with innocent men, women and children for the concentration camps mainly in the east!

Stuart Beveridge

14/10/14 – 06:29

I wonder if Hull Corporation would have purchased these vehicles if they had had Daimler engines?

Chris Barker

15/10/14 – 07:19

Hang on, Stuart, why the seeming rebuke? This is a site for those interested in buses, not a history one. That said, I’m sure that many of us who post are ‘of a certain age’ and fully aware of the war, maybe even lived through it, as I did. I lost an uncle in both wars and years of working a 6.5 day week, in munitions work, killed my father prematurely. Knowledge of the Holocaust would not be unfamiliar to us, either.

Chris Hebbron

Hull Corporation – AEC Regent III RT – BDJ 63 – 143

Hull Corporation AEC Regent III RT Type

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1950
AEC Regent III RT
Park Royal H30/26R

KHCT had a large second hand batch of these RT types from 1962 to 1970 they were ex St. Helens Corporation, this bus was D63 in there fleet. There is a preserved St Helens RT type fleet no D67 and a good picture of it is here. There is also a picture here of ex fleet no D70 whilst in service with Norfolk’s of Nayland.

It’s amazing how a different livery and adverts can almost camouflage such an iconic vehicle as an RT. It looks superb in KHCT’s colours and the streamlined style suits it. It’s a shame, though, about the missing rear wheel spats and painted-over front wheel chrome rings to complete the idyll.
Thx for the post. AS for the advert, “What we want is Watneys” and ‘Red Barrel” keg bitter come to mind!

Chris Hebbron

Hull Corporation – AEC Regent III – OKH 336 – 336

Hull Corporation AEC Regent III

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1953
AEC Regent III
Weymann “AuroRa” H32/26R

Regent III I hear you shout, yes I thought it was a Daimler as well, until Paul Morfitt a K.H.C.T. expert pointed it out to me. K.H.C.T. bought 6 of these Regent IIIs with the Birmingham style tin front, they were apparently the last front engine/open platform buses bought brand new by them. Fleet number 337 is now fully preserved and should be out on the rally circuit next summer (2010) so keep your eye out for it. There is also a restored Bradford City Transport Regent III with a similar tin front it can be seen here.

04/04/13 – 06:28

The Weymann Aurora body is something of an enigma. The first one – also co-incidentally on an AEC Regent III with tin front – was built for Devon General and exhibited on the MCW stand at Earls Court in 1952 alongside the prototype Orion. An MCW sales brochure was produced, which was still being distributed two years later, but no more bodies of that type were ever built. In the meantime Weymann had been building this much more elegant design, which most people agree bears no resemblance to the prototype described in the brochure, and which could instead be traced back much more clearly to earlier Weymann bodies. It is almost as though Weymann simply thumbed its nose at the MCW design team and just carried on with their own design evolution as if nothing had happened.
To confuse matters still further, a brief article in a recent edition of Classic Bus magazine, describing the prototype (which is now preserved) as unique, it was answered by not one but two letters referring to production Auroras as “virtually identical” to the prototype – one of them referring to these Hull vehicles and the other I think to some Bristols for Maidstone and District. It seems that resemblance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder!

Peter Williamson

04/04/13 – 08:29

The Aurora is certainly an enigma – and a trap for those who only know half the story. I too have been puzzled by the lack of similarity between to prototype and production versions but the Weymann Story (in two volumes Senior/Venture) is very clear. The Aurora name was used for these modernised versions of the classic Weymann design (produced from 1953 to 1959). The MCCW Orion design was produced at Addlestone from about 1953 (the first being re-bodies of war time Guys for Maidstone & District). Interestingly, Addlestone were also building Aurora bodies on war time Bristols for M & D. What most people didn’t realise – me included – is that the Aurora name was then resurrected as the official and proper name for the forward entrance version on the Orion.

David Oldfield

04/04/13 – 11:03

Just remembered the Bournemouth trolleys which had the Aurora as late as 1962.

David Oldfield

04/04/13 – 11:04

NTT 679

Here is a photo of the preserved one-off 1952 Aurora, Devon General NTT 679, taken at the Devon General Running Day at Newton Abbott in 1993.

John Stringer

04/04/13 – 15:49

The main difference between the prototype Aurora and the production model seems to be the move from pan window fixing to rubber mounting.

Here is an example of the production version as supplied to Birkenhead Corporation in 1954. Apart from being on an exposed radiator chassis, it differs from the Hull version in having a 5-bay body. The traditional Weymann drooping saloon window is much in evidence. Birkenhead dabbled with Weymann as a body supplier. The batch of 10 Auroras was not the whole of the CBG intake, the remaining 5 of the batch having locally-built Ashcroft bodies. The 1955 intake of 17 vehicles (10 PD2 and 7 Arab IV) saw half the PD2s bodied with the Orion style, and finally in 1964 came the one-off batch of 10 Fleetlines, again with Orion style, one of which appears on the left of the picture. (Originally delivered with the cream relief as window surrounds only, the appearance of the Fleetlines was much improved with the application of the standard livery on repaint, as seen here.)

Alan Murray-Rust

05/04/13 – 05:51

To me there are more differences than similarities. On the prototype, the dimensions of the windows – deep lower, shallow upper – are more like a production Orion than any other Aurora (and the deep lower deck windows were made much of in the sales brochure). On the production version, as Alan says, the traditional Weymann drooping bulkhead window is much in evidence, whereas on the prototype the top rail is straight and only the bottom curved, again just like most highbridge Weymann Orions. In fact the only similarities I can find (using other images) are in the front and rear domes and the rear emergency window.

Peter Williamson

23/04/13 – 07:50

My favourite bus, thin steering wheel and a smooth seat which you could slide off on exit from a roundabout and if it was a hot day and your cab door was open it could be interesting. A lot of drivers didn’t like them because you couldn’t see the pavement from the cab. I thought they were great, the exhaust would roar when you put your foot down.

box501

03/06/14 – 12:52

The Daimler and Guy Utilities of Maidstone and District were rebodied with a later form of five bay Weymann body derived from the pre and early post war design but with deeper windows upstairs. Only some Utility Bristol K6As had four bay ‘Aurora’ or five bay ‘Orion’ bodies. The only Orion bodied Guys which Maidstone and District had, were the Guy Arab IVs acquired or ordered by Chatham and District which were based on new post war chasses.

Gordon Mackley

Hull Corporation – AEC Regent III – HRH 471 – 471

Hull Corporation AEC Regent III

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1947
AEC Regent III 0961/2
Weymann H32/26R

This is quite a nice shot of an AEC Regent III just departing Hull bus station on route 50, although only the locals would know were route 50 went as there is nothing on display for its final destination. This I think would of been rather an annoying system if you were a visitor to the area as the only thing you could be sure of is that if you wanted to go to the “Market Place” you were safe on this bus because that is where it is going via. I think this practice was more prevalent for some operators of mainly town services, operators of longer distance services usually had larger destination blinds showing places they went via. If you know of any operators who had strange practices regarding destination information please leave a comment.

Yet another cracking photo! Service 50 went to the pier via the old town were it connected with the Humber Ferry service which ran across to New Holland on the south bank. The service ran until July 1981 when the Humber Bridge was opened.

Paul Morfitt

Doncaster Corporation were even better on destinations: no route numbers and the blind often just showed the final destination with a single via if needed to distinguish different routes there: in at least one case (Skellow via Owston Park), the bus didn’t really go to Skellow, but stopped short at Owston Park: the via was patched out much later. Well… if you didn’t know where the bus was going, everyone would tell you!

Joe

The blind showing, Market Place, was what was known as a “via” blind showing one major part of the route, as there was only space for one line of text, this type of blind appeared during the war, as the larger figures on the blinds were the primary means of identifying the route. All native “Hullensians” knew which route they required by the number. These blinds also appeared until the advent of the “G” registered series of Atlanteans, when a true destination blind appeared.

Keith Easton

Interesting, Keith. I wonder if this was part of the wartime initiative to confuse enemy infiltrators – especially relevant in east coast ports. As you will know signposts and railway station nameboards were removed for this reason.

Stephen Ford

Yes, Stephen, I’m sure that there was an element of what you said, but the main reason for using large numerals was more mundane. As you may be aware, during the wartime blackout conditions, bus operators were required to reduce the brilliance of external displays, consequently the size of the numerals was increased in order to improve visibility at night from a distance. For the same reason trolleybus blinds, which were in black on white, were replaced by black blinds with white numerals.

Keith Easton

03/02/11 – 17:11

On the subject of uninformative destinations Eastern Counties with their use of the word Service as a destination took some beating just as useless was the use of the company title as a destination also a popular ECOC wheeze! Of course the SBG were a breed apart with their extensive use of paper stickers and nothing but a number displayed on the destination screen!

Chris Hough

03/02/11 – 20:04

Lincolnshire Road Car and Western/Southern National were also adept in later years at wasting the “via” screen on the company name or “Service No.”

Stephen Ford

04/01/18 – 06:51

Another quirk of the situation in Hull was that at the time Hull Corporation showed only a route number and ‘via’ blind, the local country operator, East Yorkshire, showed a destination and (usually) ‘via’, but no route number! So Hull folk had to be adaptable, especially if they lived on one of the several routes that were shared between the two operators.

George R

06/01/18 – 06:56

Until about 1936, Portsmouth Corporation had only a small number box and destination box. After this, a larger via box/ route indicator, plus destination box appeared on the vehicles. Sadly, the destination box displayed PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION and the destination was relegated to the via box with all the places the same size letters. Postwar, the destination box actually showed the destination! Let’s remember, too, that both route letters and numbers were used, but these changed according to the direction. 17/18 or A/B, the latter very unhelpful to holidaymakers at a seaside resort!

Christopher Hebbron

Hull Corporation – AEC Regent III – OTV 165 – 170


Copyright Bob Gell

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1954
AEC Regent III
Park Royal H30/26R

This photograph was taken in Summer 1969, at a very familiar location in Hull and it shows 170/2 OTV165/7 of the KHCT fleet.
During 1967, KHCT acquired no less than 36 of these Park Royal bodied Regent IIIs from Nottingham City Transport, exactly half of the batch of 72 such vehicles registered OTV 127 to OTV 198 and delivered to Nottingham City Transport between June 1953 and October 1954. They were numbered 150 to 185 by Hull, but not one of them had a Hull fleet number that matched its registration! The front destinations were altered to Hull specification; the rear ones were panelled over. They were withdrawn by Hull between 1970 and 1972. One vehicle, 157 (OTV 137) then became a training vehicle, and still survives; it can usually be seen at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum, restored to its original NCT livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.

15/03/12 – 09:30

What an evocative picture, even if they are not native KHCT buses, how well the streamline livery sits on them! The location is, of course, the Coach Station in Collier Street. How lucky we were in Hull to have a coach station; instead of a mundane bus station, like other places. It was called coach station from being opened in 1935, this in spite of the fact that KHCT never owned any coaches for general service until the 1980’s! 170 has just arrived from Orchard Park via Beverley Road on the circular service 17C, whilst 172 is arriving from Willerby road on service 81. I recall OTV 137 at Sandtoft in the early 1980’s carrying the streamline livery of KHCT.

Keith Easton

15/03/12 – 09:30

I remember them new in Nottingham, where they ousted the pre-war Regents on the Bilborough, Broxtowe and Strelley services (13, 16, 16A, 30, 32, 56, 60, 62). In fact Bilborough depot’s allocation was almost entirely from this series. They also filtered onto a few other individual routes. I am pretty sure they never or rarely appeared on the Arnold group of services (10, 20, 20A, 52, 57) which retained pre-war vehicles until the arrival of the exposed radiator Regent Vs in 1955-56.

Stephen Ford

15/03/12 – 09:30

I remember these coming to Hull and causing me a lot of confusion, or at least the one that survives did. I saw it (157) and in my mind matched registration number to fleet number. I happened to go to Nottingham later that same day and was somewhat surprised to find OTV 157 running there. It was a little while after before I realised my mistake and that I hadn’t seen the same bus working for two operators on the same day!

David Beilby

15/03/12 – 12:09

In addition to these ex Nottingham buses Hull also bought ex St Helens RTs (see here) one of which BDJ 87 is preserved at the Lathalmond Museum in Saints livery. In addition Hull bought ex Newcastle Daimlers with Birmingham style bodywork (see here) and some AEC Regent IIIs also with MCW bodywork from Leicester.

Chris Hough

16/03/12 – 07:27

In addition to Nottingham selling these to Hull three of the batch went to Grimsby-Cleethorpes. I remember conducting on them and thinking they seemed pretty archaic compared to our Bridgemasters.

Philip Carlton

16/03/12 – 12:46

The Grimsby-Cleethorpes trio were OTV 159/161/163, purchased by GCT in 1967 to replace their 3 1946 RT Regents, 80-82 (JV 9900-9902). The Nottingham vehicles initially took over these three running numbers, but then became 112-114 in 1969 to release the earlier numbers for new Daimler Fleetlines.

Stephen Ford

19/03/12 – 09:24

Stephen – As you say, the OTVs were the basic allocation at Bilborough depot for most of their time in Nottm; the remainder of the batch was based at Parliament St and spent most of their time on the Beeston rota. After trolleybus conversion, they also appeared on Wells Rd routes 40 and 47 until withdrawn. I also never saw any on the Arnold (Sherwood depot) routes.
Philip – I agree your comment about these appearing archaic; I have subsequently found in Alan Townsin’s TPC book on Park Royal that these vehicles had been due for delivery in 1950, hence the 5 bay bodies, half drop windows, and late 40s, early 50s style interiors, with varnished/polished wood, which were a world away from the Park Royal Regent Vs delivered in 1955/6. But at least they were 8’wide!

Bob Gell

21/04/12 – 08:39

One of the trio of OTVs sold to Grimsby Cleethorpes also survives in preservation. The bus concerned is Nottingham 161, which can be seen at the GCR Heritage Centre at Ruddington, near Nottingham. It is also restored to Nottingham’s green with cream bands livery.
The original order for the buses that became the OTVs was for 112 buses, placed in 1948 for delivery from 1950. When the 72 OTVs came in 1953/54 the chassis had to be shortened to 26 feet from 27 feet (one foot removed from the rear overhang) to suit the Park Royal bodies which, at 26 feet long, were to the pre 1951 legal length for a two axle double decker. The choice of a five bay body must have been down to Nottingham as Park Royal had a four bay body for the Regent III in production from 1947 (examples supplied to Huddersfield, Morecambe and West Bridgford). The choice may have been to standardise on the half drop windows used, which were as used in the BUT 9641T trolleybuses. Another feature, also seen on the 9641T trolleybuses, was the placing of the batteries under the stairs (as with the RT) rather than in cradles on the chassis side (as with Nottingham Met-Cam and Roberts bodied Regent). The 72 vehicle were almost identical. Variations were 150 with its opening front upper deck windows and the last deliveries of 1954, which had to have a second rear lamp to meet changed legislation fitted. This was incorporated in the bottom of the grab rail positioned against the back platform window. The balance of the 112 were received as the ten SAUs and the 30 UTVs.
The OTVs did certainly dominate the allocation at Bilborough Depot, which, from memory, was from about bus 156 to bus 198, until replaced by NAU and RTO Fleetlines in the middle 1960s. Bulwell also had its Roberts bodied Regents replaced by Fleetlines (RTOs) about 1964. The others were based at Parliament Street and were used on a variety of services including the Beestons, the West Bridgfords, the Sneinton Dales and the 25 and 58. From my observations Parliament Street’s share of the Arnold services were worked by PD2s, but what worked these prior to the arrival of the PD2s? Prior to the arrival of the Regent Fives Sherwood had an allocation of the Daimlers with both Brush and Roberts bodies.

Michael Elliott

21/04/12 – 11:49

Thanks Michael. I don’t actually ever remember seeing PD2s on the Arnold routes. My recollection is of wall-to-wall Regent Vs from 1956, prior to which memory says that they were operated by pre-war Regents (Metro-Cammell and Cravens). However I have seen enough photos to convince me that my memory is not infallible! – Daimler CVD6s were also used. It is also certain that the 10 was often singled out for the left-overs – utility CWA6s or second hand pre-war Halifax Regents. Also, in the early 50s, the Redhill route that became the 57 was one end of a cross-city 4/4A from Beeston, often served by 1948 Metro-Cammells. Similarly, the 3 Sneinton Dale was originally a cross-city service, starting at Radford (Addington Road) and at that time invariably pre-war Regents. Both the 3 and 4/4A were split in two, I guess, around 1952/53, Redhill becoming 57, Radford 58, and a new extension beyond the Sneinton Dale terminus of the 3 became 59.
The Parliament Street OTVs were also widely used on the Trinity Square-Bestwood area services (6, 17, 18, 28) and the Gordon Road routes (9, 23, 54, 65).

Stephen Ford

01/05/12 – 07:06

Hi Stephen – The link between Beeston and Arnold dated back to April 1933 when service 4 was linked to services 10 & 20. At that time service number 4 was used for the Beeston to Nottingham part of the journey and 10 or 20 used for the journey through to Arnold. Service 10 ran via Mansfield Road past the Home Brewery to Redhill Road then via Redhill Road to the Mellors Road junction. Service 20 ran via Mansfield Road then via Nottingham Road (Arnold), Front Street, Church Street and Mellors Road to the Redhill Road junction.At this time all journeys between Beeston and Nottingham whether by via Derby Road or Castle Boulevard were service 4 until 2nd April 1944 when journeys via Castle Boulevard became 4A. When the Arnold tram service was converted to bus operation from 6 September 1936 service number 10 was used for the service between the Old Market Square and Valley Road, Sherwood. Service 20 still operated between Mellors Road but ran through to Trent Bridge via Arkwright Street. The service to Redhill Road via Mansfield Road then became the 4, running through from Beeston (via either Derby Road or Castle Blvd). The split between Beeston and Arnold took place from 25th May 1952 when the 57 was introduced between the Old Market Square and Redhill and the 4/4A became solely a service between Beeston and the Old Market Square.
Through operation by service 3 between Sneinton Dale and Addington Road, Radford ceased from 12th April 1953 when service 58 was introduced between South Parade and Radford.

Michael Elliott