To contrast with the view of Atlantean D353 already posted on the website, is this one of of sister vehicle D300. It is seen in the original dark blue and cream livery, which was phased out in favour of the all over sand-coloured scheme in 1974. The bus is seen if memory serves correct, in the city of Cork in the late 1970’s. The beautifully quaint destination of ‘Statue’ is wonderful, but then again, the locals will no doubt know which one and where it is…..
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
24/04/13 – 07:52
This vehicle still has the original lower front panel with mouldings around the headlights, and spotlights (compare with the photograph of D353) – anybody know why the modification was subsequently made? And I remember reading years ago – it must have been in a late 70s/early 80s Buses Annual – that these Atlanteans had “top deck header tanks” . . . to what purpose? As an aside, at the nadir of CIEs’s fortunes between the last Van Hool Atlanteans and the delivery of the first Bombardiers it used to be said that CIE was an acronym for “Cycling Is Easier” – though by the time I had cause to use Iarnrod Eireann/Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus services regularly (early 1990s) things had markedly improved. Anyway, you couldn’t call this an attractive design of body but at least its different, in a “functionally brutal” sort of way – I think it’s got more going for it than, say FRM1 which was 50s half-cab styling dumped on a rear engined chassis, in so far as it pushes design and tries to be different.
Philip Rushworth
24/04/13 – 11:27
If I remember correctly the replacement front panels were the result of accident damage and were fabricated in CIE’s own works – and simplicity being the watchword.
Phil Blinkhorn
25/04/13 – 07:36
Yes, Brendan, you’re right, this is Cork. The bus is heading north up Grand Parade towards the landmark “Father Mathew” statue which had been a city terminal point since tramway days. Nice to see this bus in its original blue and cream livery.
Glasgow Corporation 1958 Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 Alexander H44/34F
The picture, which appears to be a pre delivery shot, shows Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1, LA1 delivered to Glasgow Corporation Transport in 1958. It was registered FYS 998 and had an Alexander H44/34F body. The Alexander body was described at the time as ‘boxy’ and remained the only body of this style with Glasgow. Alexander and GCT worked together after this, to design a more rounded and pleasing body to a new “Glasgow Style” a design which won favour from other Bus operators, around the UK. LA1 was allocated to Ibrox Garage where it spent the majority of its time in service. The legal lettering shows the General Manager to be Mr. E.R.L. Fitzpayne. He became Manager in 1943 after being Assistant Manager, and remained in post until 1969 when he retired. LA1 is now in preservation.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
14/11/13 – 06:00
Newcastle Corporation had quite a number of very similar vehicles, although the front panel was different and theirs had twin headlights. The first 14 came in 1961 the fleet numbers were the same as the registration, and they were 187 – 189/201 JVK (188 had a Metro Cammell body) then 11 more in 1961, 214/224 JVK. 221 is alive and well and part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection and can be seen on their site. However, they weren’t the first Alexander bodied Atlanteans in the area, the NGT group took delivery of 15 in 1960, KCN 181/9 were for Gateshead and 601/7 EUP went to Sunderland District. Again the body had a different front panel, and the top two thirds of the drivers windscreen was swept back.
Ronnie Hoye
14/11/13 – 06:00
Sheffield 369 was a one off identical Atlantean, shoved onto the end of Sheffield’s small initial batch of 1959 Met Camm Atlanteans and before a further short batch of Met Camms. 20 Alexander Regent Vs followed a year later in 1960. It would be 1972 until the next Alexander deckers arrived – on Fleetline chassis – although some Y type Leopards snuck in in 1968. This would be the beginning of a long love affair between STD and then SYPTE and Alexanders – ending only when First Group took over control of Mainline. [Continuing their historic practise of dual sourcing, during the Alexander years this would be East Lancs – including Dennis Dominators to SYPTE style which even closer to R types than the usual run of Alexander East Lancs clones.
David Oldfield
14/11/13 – 06:00
It would appear that Sheffield Corporation was somewhat unimpressed by the Glasgow Style as No. 369 was the only Alexander Atlantean bought in this design in 1960. It was to be some twelve years before Sheffield called upon Alexander for bodies on rear engined Daimler and Atlantean chassis.
John Darwent
14/11/13 – 09:44
When the new Riverside Museum Opened at Glasgow there was no room for this bus or the BUT/Burlingham Trolleybus. I do not think the new museum is a patch on the previous Kelvin Hall Collection. There is not as much room as there was but at least some of the trams are shown.
Philip Carlton
14/11/13 – 13:40
I rode on Sheffield 369 on the Outer Circle and wondered why there was odd Alexander-bodied one. I seem to recall it had an odd destination layout at the back. Glasgow LA1 competes with Wallasey 1 and James of Ammanford 227 for the distinction of being the first production Atlantean – all are shown as entering service in 12/58. No doubt it depends on definitions. We can safely say that LA1 was the first in Scotland!
Geoff Kerr
14/11/13 – 16:50
Your memory serves you well Geoff. 369 had a full Sheffield set on the rear albeit downside up so to speak.
John Darwent
14/11/13 – 17:42
Funny how we remember these details for 45 years. Lucky you photographed the rear, John, as not many did!
Geoff Kerr
14/11/13 – 17:42
The strange thing is that it looks like no other Alexander body before or since. Godfrey Abbott also had a couple – but I cannot remember whether they were bought new or second hand.
David Oldfield
14/11/13 – 17:58
According to The Leyland Bus The first four production chassis were as follows: The Wallasey chassis was the first numerically, followed by one for Maidstone and District, then the Glasgow vehicle and finally the one for James of Ammanford. However the Glasgow chassis left the works for the body builders a day before the others and was eventually the first into service after appearing at the 1958 Commercial Show.
Phil Blinkhorn
15/11/13 – 06:28
Re Sheffield 369 – I don’t recall short workings on the 53 to Scarsdale Road, I suppose it would be the bus replacement equivalent of the Woodbank Crescent short workings of the trams. How did the buses turn at Scarsdale Road?
Ian Wild
15/11/13 – 06:29
Glasgow LA1 in the Glasgow Transport Museum
Stephen Howarth
15/11/13 – 08:31
The original colour scheme on the Glasgow Atlantean was much more balanced than its final scheme. Regarding the Sheffield indicator layout, referring again to The Leyland Bus, there is a rear view of Sheffield 922, one of the second batch with MCW bodies, which shows a two panel rectangular destination and via display, one above the other, set to the nearside and a small rectangular service number panel set to the offside and placed on a level so the centre of that panel was level with the gap between the two larger panels – a much neater and, I seem to recall, standard layout.
Phil Blinkhorn
15/11/13 – 08:31
Easy, Ian. Turn right at lights, left at Dale/Woodseats Road and left again at top of Woodseats Road – where 75/76 already emerged to turn right to go to Meadowhead, Norton or Bradway. I have never seen a short to Scarsdale either, but it was a timing point – and an annoying one. As a student, I would often arrive in Sheffield at 2020 off the X48 18:30 ex Manchester LMS – in the days when the 42/53 was OMO to Lowedges Road with 33’0″ PDR2/1 Park Royals. One-manning was time expensive during the day but at night with few, if any passengers, these magnificent machines could shift and easily get ahead of themselves. A ten minute stop, when I wanted to get home, was not an uncommon occurrence. [Of course, intelligent scheduling could have overcome this.]
David Oldfield
16/11/13 – 08:47
Phil, Sheffield 916-932 of 1960 were the only Atlanteans with this rear destination arrangement. The following batch 933-944 of 1962 reverted to a rear triple route number only but with main and via blinds side by side above the forward lower saloon windows. The displays at the rear of 916 etc quickly fell into disuse (as did those on 369) and the destination glasses were soon panelled over. Thanks David for Scarsdale Road shorts turning – I was confusing Scarsdale Road and Derbyshire Lane.
Ian Wild
16/11/13 – 11:30
If memory serves, a foolish thing to do at my age, the early Newcastle Atlanteans had a rear destination blind, and the bonnet had a drop down step to gain access to the handle to change it, as you can imagine this was highly popular, and more often than not the blind remained blank. I seem to think that the rear number plate was moved to that spot, which tended to make it look disproportionately large.
Ronnie Hoye
17/11/13 – 06:54
Ronnie, thank you for your fascinating commentary about the early Newcastle Atlanteans. I believe that 187 and 188 were delivered in 1960 and these were followed in 1961 by a batch of 25 with bodywork split between Alexander (13) and Weymann (12). I had long been puzzled by the abnormally large rear registration plates on Atlanteans 189-238 and your memory has solved something that had me puzzled for the best part of 48 years. Well, I never! I would add that Belfast Corporation took an early Atlantean with this style of Alexander bodywork, number 551 registered 5540 XI.
Kevin Hey
17/11/13 – 09:44
Ronnie, the drop down step was a standard feature on early Atlanteans. It was a metal plate and can be clearly seen in the picture of Sheffield 369 above interrupting the topmost of the three mouldings at the bottom of the engine compartment, just below the Atlantean badge.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/11/13 – 14:09
I remember these “footplates” they were often left down. Was it customary then to ride on them thus leading to their demise?
Joe
18/11/13 – 16:43
At first sighting, I thought the batch of Sheffield Atlanteans 915-932 were quite something, with that full set of destination blinds at the rear they really stood out. When new they were put on the 17 between Dobcroft Road at Millhouses and Sheffield Lane Top, which route passed the end of my grandmother’s road, and that high pitched sound they made, rather reminiscent of a giant vacuum cleaner I always thought, was unmistakeable as I listened for them making their way along Owler Lane until late at night. They had that distinctive pitching and yawing motion down pat too, as they pulled into the stops, which was ironically not unlike the trams that had run along the same stretch of roadway just a year or so before.
Dave Careless
19/11/13 – 05:45
Re my comments on the 16th, Sheffield 916-932 were not the only Atlanteans with rear destinations and route numbers. I’d forgotten the 1962 JOC deliveries had this arrangement as well, 1350-1358 (B fleet) and 1163-1165 (C fleet). It was the 1962 A fleet 933-944 which eliminated the rear destinations leaving route numbers only.
Ian Wild
19/11/13 – 08:22
Thanks Ian, I thought there had been more with that indicator layout than in your original post as they stuck in my mind from my visits across the Pennines in the 1960s.
Phil Blinkhorn
19/11/13 – 12:06
I’m fairly sure the 1959 batches of Atlanteans, 363 – 8 and 881 – 899 (xxx WJ) just had a route number box at the rear. Funny how we’ve ended up in Sheffield again, after starting in Glasgow!
Geoff Kerr
19/11/13 – 13:58
Geoff, you are quite correct – as is Ian that the last full blind rears were on the 1962 B and C fleet Atlanteans. The A fleets (as well as the first Fleetlines 951-953) reverted to number only displays.
David Oldfield
20/11/13 – 05:40
Whilst looking through some old slides a couple of days ago, I came across this shot of the rear of ex Newcastle Atlantean 193JVK which illustrates Ronnie’s comment about the oversized space occupied by the registration number. Not sure who added the reflective number plate though! No drop down step though. The photograph was taken in the summer of 1975, on the premises of Fowlers of Holbeach Drove the bus was in the livery of Parks of Hamilton, presumably newly acquired by Fowler. The REO also in the picture, AG 6470, has I think, since been restored.
Bob Gell
20/11/13 – 06:47
…..but remember, Bob, that early Atlantean engine cowls were notoriously fragile. They were a complete unit and very prone to damage – needing replacement. 193 JVK possibly had just such a replacement. [On later Atlanteans only the middle section raised – and the ends swung out.]
David Oldfield
20/11/13 – 09:27
Have to say, in retrospect, apart from the unfortunate sad look at the front, it’s not a bad looking bus. Bit of a pity they didn’t follow through and improve on this rather than what they did. I quite liked the look of the AL with peaks (STD) and the R type, though quality was a little suspect on the latter. [Never came across an R type that wasn’t swimming in water on the floor during and after a rainfall.]
David Oldfield
20/11/13 – 11:19
David, I have to agree with your comments re LA1. I well remember seeing my first Atlantean in Stoke on Trent a week or so after the first deliveries. Apart from the shock of the new, in the context of the time, both the MCW and Alexander offerings were reasonably good looking. Where I disagree is about what followed. Whilst the Alexander balloon roof did not suit all the body styles (front engined vehicles looking the worst), the Glasgow examples were OK but the lowbridge version looked very stylish and avant garde, especially compared to everything else that was around at the time. In my area, North Western’s examples put everything else in the shade from the moment they appeared, and that included the Renowns which were delivered at the same time. On another topic, didn’t Leyland change the engine shroud after the introduction of the Fleetline which had a hinged bonnet section as opposed to the cowl having to be removed as a whole, Daimler having learned from the problems the original Atlantean shroud was causing. Regarding Geoff Kerr’s comment about Sheffield I think that Mr Oldfield is here under an alias. His real name is Forcefield. His love of all things Sheffield reminds me of a great friend of mine, one time Tourism and Conference Officer for Sheffield, Keith Cheetham, who would and could turn any conversation to Sheffield “The City in the Golden Frame”. David has a similar influence which he manages to project through the electronic media and this site is all the better for it!
Phil Blinkhorn
20/11/13 – 12:04
How kind (I think) Mr Blinkhorn.
David Oldfield
20/11/13 – 13:51
Comment was made with the best of intentions David.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/11/13 – 13:52
Again, from memory, I seem to think that by the time they were withdrawn from service, none of Newcastles Atlanteans still had a one piece bonnet, and they had all been replaced by the type mentioned by David.
Ronnie Hoye
20/11/13 – 15:49
I know it was, Phil…..
David Oldfield
20/11/13 – 16:37
David, your comments relating to the Atlantean one-piece engine cowl are interesting, as Bristol also opted for a one-piece job when it introduced the VRT. Just as on the early Atlanteans, the original VRT cowls were somewhat flimsy affairs, and were similarly prone to damage. The cowl was hinged under the rear lower deck window and was fastened at the sides by Triumph Herald-type bonnet catches. Unfortunately the catches didn’t always fasten as they should, sometimes leading to sides ‘flapping’ and cracking. A more sensible three-piece design soon replaced the original thank goodness, but considering how long the Atlantean had been in production before the VRT came along, it’s somewhat surprising that Bristol hadn’t learned from the problems encountered earlier by Leyland.
Brendan Smith
21/11/13 – 05:45
The mention of ‘being able to turn all things to Sheffield’ made me wonder if I had put the wrong picture on here?
Stephen Howarth
21/11/13 – 05:45
A bit of the classic “not invented here” syndrome !
Stephen Ford
28/09/16 – 07:00
First saw LA1 at a motor show in Kelvin Hall in the 1950s. Became bus driver in 1965 at 21 and worked at Parkhead garage where I drove LA1 often. It was the only LA with the split screen as all others had full screen at least up to 1969 when I left.
James Dearie
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
22/10/18 – 06:00
The Glasgow LA1 is based at the Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Museum (Open day Oct 18) and they have just produced a book on the Glasgow Transport’s love of the Atlanteans which are 60 this year
Southampton Corporation 1968 Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 East Lancs H45/31F
OCR 149F entered service with Southampton City Transport on 1 July 1968 as fleet number 105, (note – not Southampton Corporation Transport since elevation to City status in 1964. (But posted here under Corporation to keep the Southampton fleet postings under one heading.) This vehicle acted as a “prototype” for the other 19 of the batch, which entered service in September and October of that year. Despite this, the fleet list in the otherwise-excellent history by A K Macfarlane-Watt records her as OCR 149G but as can be seen below was clearly ‘F’ registered.
She is an Atlantean PDR1/1 with East Lancs H76F bodywork. She is seen in Portswood Road, parked outside the depot, on 31 August 1981. This was the final day of ‘conductor’ operation in Southampton (at least until Deregulation) except for the occasional failure in the system when a Fitter would be called upon to drive while an Inspector took the fares. I experienced this several times!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
26/01/14 – 17:33
It was at about this time that Leyland started sorting out the Atlantean’s problems. Between 1968 and 1972, improvements were made which culminated in the introduction of the AN68 in 1972. This is what the Atlantean should have been from the start and it became by far the best first generation rear-engined decker. The Daimler Fleetline was always a good bus and, after take over by LMC, replaced the dreadful disasters known as the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans as Leyland’s low-height deckers. By offering both the Gardner and the Leyland engines, all bases were covered. Of course the AN68 eventually formed the backbone of both Southampton and Portsmouth fleets – and myriad others too.
David Oldfield
27/01/14 – 08:14
Thanks for this Pete. I’ve been doing some research into the end of crew operation around the UK and the previous information I had obtained (from where, I don’t recall) was that Southampton’s last crew routes were the 7 and 9 from Lordshill to Weston around 1984/5. So whilst that info is quite detailed, it’s substantially different from 31/08/1981. I’ll trust your date with your personal experiences!
Dave Towers
27/01/14 – 09:28
David O and Dave T, thanks for your comments. My first experience of a Daimler Fleetline was in Birmingham, going back to City Centre on the 55 route from Saltley after an interview: 3344. I thought then how much better it seemed to perform than the Atlanteans Ribble were using. The vehicle illustrated was simply “parked” and not taking part in the formal City Tour, with the Guy Arabs and Regent Vs all sporting clusters of balloons. Photos available of them if required! By 1984/5, we were very much into the driver only era, even with the local NBC operator, Hants & Dorset. The Routemasters introduced after Deregulation were withdrawn in January 1989.
Pete Davies
29/06/14 – 17:23
There seems to be some confusion about dates here. 31 August 1981 (a bank holiday) was the last day of operation of rear platform buses in Southampton, and was celebrated with a tour and commemorative tickets. Crew operation did, however, continue, but with Atlanteans, and I would think that 1985 would have been the correct date for the introduction of full OPO. In 1981, I was working at the Civic Centre (city hall) in an administrative capacity, but in 1983 I transferred to the Transport Department, and we still had conductors then – as Dave Towers correctly says, on the 7/9 group of services between Weston and the Lordshill/Aldermoor area. The end of crew operation was accompanied by the introduction of the no change farebox system, which was considered in certain quarters to be an unwise decision in the period before deregulation. Given the time spent discussing this aspect of the change, I would be reasonably sure that the conductors continued until 1985. Deregulation came in October 1986, and Southern Vectis started their competitive Solent Blue Line venture the following spring, with conductors and making great play of the fact that they gave change. SCT could not ignore that, and introduced Routemasters soon after. Later on, the preserved Regent V that had run the ‘last open platform bus’ tour (401) was transferred back to the bus operator from the Museums Department, and re-entered service. Some of us, who had travelled on that last open platform tour, wondered if we had a case for a refund!
Nigel Frampton
30/06/14 – 07:03
Thanks Nigel. I’ll change my spreadsheet back to “c. 1985” and hope that somewhere some more information may come to light!
Dave Towers
30/06/14 – 11:38
Welcome to the forum, Nigel. Do you still live in Shirley? I bow to your “insider” knowledge!
Pete Davies
01/07/14 – 06:49
Thanks for the welcome, Pete. No, not in Shirley any more – but in south west Germany, near to Freiburg!
Nigel Frampton
01/07/14 – 10:54
Be fair, Nigel, Shirley wasn’t THAT bad!
Chris Hebbron
Kevin
Yes, it was most definitely F and all the others were G, even though they were still 0CR with sequential numbers either side of 149. I first saw this “prototype” on display at the Southampton Show and was very excited about the new fleet numbering, although I was wondering what would happen when the numbers caught up to the remaining Guy Arabs 164 and 167 (when they did, of course, these were renumbered 64 and 67 respectively). I seem to remember that one of the next batch of Atlanteans, TTR —H was never delivered because it caught fire and there was forever a gap of one in the Fleet Numbers. Happy days!
Kevin
30/06/17 – 06:39
Kevin – you are quite correct in saying that one of the TTR-H Atlanteans was never delivered (it would have been number 123). To be strictly correct, it was the bodyworks that caught fire, and several other vehicles were destroyed as well. The chassis of 123 was exported to Australia, where (if I recall correctly) it received a single deck body.
There were 40 of these Atlanteans in Sheffield in two batches of 20. This is one of the second batch delivered with blue interiors and wheels together with three rotovents in each side of the upper deck in lieu of sliding windows. These were quite effective in extracting the tobacco fug without causing too much draught but must have been difficult to clean. A facing crossover on the Supertram network now adorns this location allowing trams to reverse in front of the cathedral. The cream and blue livery contrasts with the blackened facade of the National Provincial Bank. I liked these buses with the deep windows in each deck and a touch of modernity with the curved windscreens. Pity the transmission design was not more robust. There was a touch of local pride with the bodies being ‘Built in Sheffield’. The photo was taken in 1967 when the bus was about one year old.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
02/03/14 – 08:19
The rotovents may have extracted smoke but they were worse than useless for providing ventilation in the heat of summer. It’s a moot point about the quality of either these or the contemporary Park Royal bodies as the transmission on the PDR1/2 gave the buses the violent shakes when the buses were at rest. This was even more pronounced if they were left in gear at a stop, traffic lights or give way signs. Interesting operational point to ponder. The 88 went from Fulwood (one of the wealthiest parts of the city) to Roscoe Bank (a housing estate to the north – just short of Stannington). This was a common feature of cross-city routes – going from a wealthy suburb to a housing estate or a deprived &/or slum area (often in the East End). Did this happen in other towns and cities?
David Oldfield
02/03/14 – 15:42
I think I ought to defend the NatPro bank in this picture, Ian as like most buildings in Central Sheffield by that time, it looks cleaned, and is terracotta and stone. “blackened Facades” in post war Sheffield really were black- for years, people thought the Town Hall was built of coal. As for vibrations, nothing but nothing can be worse than First’s Optare midibus on the Leeds Citybus route: at every pause, you can feel your brain being vibrated to mush. Progress- what progress?
Joe
03/03/14 – 07:35
Could anyone in the know prove or disprove the story that the wheels on Sheffield buses were red when Labour were in power and blue when the Tories were in power. On the subject or routes running from rich to poor areas in Leeds the 2 and still run from affluent Roundhay to the vast Middleton estate in the south of the city
Chris Hough
03/03/14 – 07:36
Was this to Sheffield’s own specification, as most of the East Lancs and Neepsend output on rear engined double deckers seems to have been of the Bolton and Southampton style by this time?
Pete Davies
03/03/14 – 07:37
Have I read somewhere that Sheffield painted bus wheels according to the political party running the council? Red when Labour were in power and blue when the Tories were in charge? (the latter infrequently I would imagine)
Michael Keeley
03/03/14 – 07:38
What is the point of the blacked-out window “(not) illuminating” the staircase? Surely the point of a window is to allow light through – the only point of blacking a window out is to keep light out . . . so why build a blacked-out window in to start with?
Philip Rushworth
03/03/14 – 07:38
The pairing of services to rich and poor areas of a city to form a cross-city route may have been quite common for geographical reasons. In a typical city, richer and poorer suburbs have historically grown up on opposite sides of the centre because of the direction of the prevailing winds, the most desirable places to live being upwind of industrial pollution sources. And the most typical cross-city services tend to go from one side of the city to the other. Fulwood to Roscoe Bank probably did not fall clearly into this pattern – both termini being basically west of centre – but I don’t know if other Sheffield services did.
Peter Williamson
03/03/14 – 15:13
Apparently the first Sheffield vehicle with blue wheel hubs was Atlantean/Park Royal No. 340, exhibited at the Earl’s Court Motor Show in 1963/4.
Geoff Kerr
03/03/14 – 16:01
Peter- this idea of joining places for routes across a city works well in its simplest form: but you wonder sometimes if it gave all drivers (and their buses) a share of the nice, quieter bits or even if the poorer areas subsidised the richer- who still had to be served. Sheffield (and Huddersfield and some other places) is not what it seems on a map. Steep river valleys mean that places in different valleys look close but are a long way apart by bus, if it has to go into town down one valley then out again up another. A trap for the unwary modern bus executive, in a safe office, miles away. Philip- I think blacked out windows did let light in- the glass is black, not painted- think of those sinister black Saturday night specials (but now illegal up front). And, all, I think it was thought that the blue wheels co-incided too co-incidentally with the Tories actually gaining power- but it was such an odd happening that I think people let them have their moment of glory!
Joe
03/03/14 – 16:59
Most of Sheffield’s main cross-city bus services were based on the tram routes they replaced, and over the years the tramway network had been gradually extended to serve the large housing estates as they were developed in the 1920’s and 30’s, and linking them to the industrial area of the east end where the vast majority of Sheffielders went to work every day. One of the last extensions to the tramway system, if not the very last, was along Abbey Lane, a highly desirable area of the city where the trams ran in a central reservation amid much greenery and overall affluence. In fact, to highlight what a city of contrasts Sheffield is, the last route to be converted to buses ran from Beauchief, the site of a ruined abbey at one end of Abbey Lane, through the city centre to the aptly named Vulcan Road, a siding amid acres of forges, steelworks and soot-blackened terraced houses. And as if to add insult to injury, the cars passed right by Wards yard in Attercliffe on the way, where they were eventually reduced to scrap metal to feed those very same blast furnaces.
Dave Careless
03/03/14 – 17:03
Yes. Roscoe Bank and Fulwood are close as the crow flies – but that is up to Lodge Moor, across Rivelin Valley and down from Stannington. By 88, the distance is at least double – if not more. The route shape is more like a (open ended) paper clip with the U turn in town. The current 25 (Bradway – Woodhouse) is like a letter A. South West, North to Town and then South East.
David Oldfield
04/03/14 – 07:11
On the subject of desk wallahs not knowing the terrain a classic was the Northern Health Authority which was formed because the east and west coasts were only a few miles apart unfortunately they forgot about the Pennines!
Chris Hough
04/03/14 – 07:12
It’s difficult to tell from the photograph but were these vehicles built to normal height, i.e. 14ft 6in? If they were, then presumably the reason for specifying the PDR1/2 chassis to achieve a flat floor on the lower deck . I know Sheffield had only a minimal requirement for low height/lowbridge double deckers, surely they wouldn’t have ordered forty of them?
Chris Barker
04/03/14 – 08:26
Off the top of my head, I think that in 1966 STD had 99 (a memorable but odd number of) PDR1/2s. The balance had full height Park Royal bodies. I seem to remember that the Neepsend bodies were lower height – but how much lower I don’t know – or whether they were low-height in the accepted sense.
David Oldfield
04/03/14 – 08:28
These buses could fit under the bridge on the old 70 route to Upton, hence they were to a slightly lower overall height. Fulwood may well be posh, but Stannington isn’t exactly the depths of poverty! It is one of Sheffield’s more desirable council estates. Roscoe Bank has now morphed into Hall Park Head after the terminus moved further up the hill as housing expanded. The Conservatives were only in power for one year and the wheels were painted from red to blue. However, at certain times, bus wheels have been black as well as blue. It is also worth pointing out that the red line below the bottom blue band only ceased to be applied after the signwriter retired. These days, you would apply it in vinyl.
Neil Hudson
04/03/14 – 12:04
The design was not unique to Sheffield. Bury, Warrington and Coventry had identical or almost identical bodies on vehicles of the same period. Blacked out windows did let in light but were opaque from the outside for purposes of “modesty” given their position.
Phil Blinkhorn
04/03/14 – 12:05
This style of East Lancs body was also bought by Warrington.
Chris Hough
04/03/14 – 12:05
Stannington is “very nice”. Had I not had to move south with work. Stannington was always high on the list of possible places to live.
David Oldfield
04/03/14 – 15:54
The blacked out window stopped people looking at passengers going up the stairs from the outside it did let a lot of light in just like ambulances and looked the part.
Dragon
05/03/14 – 07:05
Okay, so others bought this same design. Thanks, folks, but was it actually designed FOR an operator or was it the East Lancs/Neepsend ‘standard’ of the time, which some operators (such as Bolton and Southampton) chose not to use?
Pete Davies
05/03/14 – 16:20
Pete. As far as was possible, this was an East Lancs standard design. More to the point, it was well known that there really was no such thing as an East Lancs standard as they were prepared, more than any other coachbuilder, to build a bespoke design for anyone who asked. Bolton were a case in point who had their own individual designs. Southampton’s Atlanteans were really a more modern development or evolution of this earlier design.
David Oldfield
05/03/14 – 16:22
Bolton always incorporated their own ideas into their bodies by the time Southampton bought Atlanteans a single piece wrap round windscreen was standard as was a peak to the front dome.
Maidstone Corporation’s No 43 registration NKK 243F was a rather rare combination of Massey body on the Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 chassis with H43/31F seating being one of only thirty two rear engine chassis bodied by Massey Bros. Of this total Maidstone Corporation bought twenty all on Atlantean chassis No’s 27-46 and Colchester Corporation bought ten also on Atlantean No’s 45-54, the other two went to members of A1 Services of Ardrossan one on the only Daimler Fleetline chassis bodied by Massey which was followed by one on an Atlantean. All thirty two had the same seating layout as the photo’s subject. Several of Massey’s regular customers who bought from them on front engine chassis chose not to go to them when rear engines became the order of the day which possibly contributed to the later merger with Northern Counties.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
20/04/14 – 09:32
By 1968 most bodybuilders were producing bodies with a more shaped frontal aspect on rear engined chassis but to my eye this is quite an attractive functionally boxy body, aided by a simple but effective livery.
Ian Wild
20/04/14 – 17:36
I Worked for Connor & Graham, Easington East Yorkshire in 1982 and we had three of them, I was told he bought two and later the dealer phoned and gave the third one free, the bodywork was very sound as it was used on school run from Sunk Island to Withernsea and to Hull on Saturday, I left in 1983 I think they were Maidstone Corporation Nos 28,29 and 31.
Phil Savin
21/04/14 – 06:22
I agree with Ian, although boxlike, I thought the Massey design was quite attractive and far better looking than some other builders designs where curved or wrap-round windscreens were indiscriminately ‘grafted’ on leaving some real ‘hotch potch’ end results. The livery also helps. Tasteful, traditional and practical.
Philip Halstead
21/04/14 – 06:23
Wigan had at least one AN68. Were there any more – for Wigan or anyone else?
David Oldfield
21/04/14 – 10:49
David Northern Counties bought Massey Bros in 1967. The final Massey deliveries to Wigan Corporation were Titans FEK1-9F in early 1968. The first AN68s delivered to Wigan Corporation were NEK1-10K in August 1972.
Dave Farrier
22/04/14 – 05:04
Ah. Right. Obviously NCME then. Not to a Massey outline by any chance?
David Oldfield
24/04/14 – 08:18
London Country borrowed six of these buses during a period of acute vehicle shortage in 1977. They were operated out of Chelsham Garage on the busy 403 group of services across Croydon to Wallington. I rode on several of these at the time, and noted the high standard of internal finish of the Massey bodies, but the PDR1/1 Atlantean did struggle a bit on the long gradient up to Sanderstead Church. In the mid 1960s, Massey double deck design went from the extremely curvaceous to the excessively angular. The Pemberton firm was very late entering the rear engined double deck bus market, and this application of the perpendicular was its eventual offering. It would seem that, from then on, some structural componentry must have been common to rear engined and front engined double deck bus bodywork, because the latter type, hitherto very rounded, then became very squared up. It was as if the firm had become revitalised by memories of its markedly austere wartime utility designs. The bold angularity of these Atlanteans was not unattractive, but the vertical front screens must have given problems with internal reflections from the interior lighting during hours of darkness. I was never a convert to the insipid and rather grubby pale blue and cream livery. To my eye, the colours do not complement each other – the lighter colour would have looked better had it been white with black lining out – but Maidstone really should never have abandoned in the mid 1960s the magnificent ochre and cream livery that I recall adorning the trolleybuses when I was a child living in Kent during the late 1940s. Maidstone, once a proud operator, seemed to go progressively downhill in its metamorphosis from ‘Corporation’ through ‘Borough Council’ to the ultimate horror of ‘Boro’line’ with its truly ghastly blue and yellow, with red and white trim, so called “livery”. Take a look at this if you don’t believe me. No prizes for guessing the perpetrator of this abominable colour scheme. No wonder the Boro’line outfit eventually went bust. //victoryguy.smugmug.com/Maidstone
Roger Cox
24/04/14 – 08:18
When NCME took over Massey, they moved into the former Massey factory and some subsequent NCME bodies showed a marked Massey influence, particularly around the front of the upper deck. None were identical to past Massey products, however.
Peter Williamson
09/08/17 – 16:58
There is a Leyland Atlantean with Massey body in Northern Ireland which is used as an “activity centre”. The vehicle spends most of the year in under cover storage but has re-emerged this summer. It is devoid of any identity but can only be an ex Colchester or Maidstone example. Did any of the C&G ones go to Ireland, or can anyone reveal more about what this vehicle may be.
Bill Headley
20/02/19 – 06:34
Did the identity of the Massey bodied Atlantean in Northern Ireland ever got established? I too liked the Massey bodied examples. They looked different from the Alexander, MCW, Roe, Northern counties etc.There aren’t many left.
Roy Wolstencroft
22/02/19 – 06:25
I have scrutinized Shane Conway’s excellent ‘Classic Irish Buses’ website and have been unable to find any trace of a Massey-bodied Atlantean. As you’ll gather, the site is pretty thorough. www.classicbuses.co.uk/+Leyland Bill Headley (above) says that the one in Northern Ireland is devoid of any identity, but it must carry a registration plate, if only a Northern Irish one. Perhaps it could be identified from that. How close is it possible to get to the said vehicle? There is likely to be some source of identification on it, somewhere.
Edinburgh Corporation 1966 Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 Alexander H43/31F
This photo shows Edinburgh Corporation 801 ESF 801C taken in 1967, 801 was the corporation’s first Atlantean with Alexander H74F bodywork delivered in February 1966,it was I think the first double deck body with panoramic windows and may have been exhibited at the 1965 Scottish motor show at Kelvin Hall which could explain it’s 1966 delivery. The next batch 802-825 EWS 802-825D with identical Alexander bodies were delivered in October 1966 had the then normal short window bays and these were delivered shortly after 826-850 EWS 826-850 which were Leyland PD3A/2’s with Alexander H70F bodies, canny Scots hedging their bets perhaps.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
19/06/14 – 09:33
Beauty is in the eye, as they say. The big window version of the Alexander “Y” type, was arguably the best looking single deck Bus or D/P of its generation. However, as with the Southdown Queen Mary, for me the big window version of these just didn”t work. The NGT Group had a number of the small window versions, Newcastle Corporation had both large and smaller window types, they also had some rather strange large window types with the stairs on the “wrong” side, and a centre exit. After a series of accidents, the union refused to use the centre exit, and as the vehicles were due for overhaul, the doors were removed and extra seats fitted.
Ronnie Hoye
21/06/14 – 06:29
Centre exits seem to have been a passing fad of the late 1960s. What was the real issue with them, as they seem to be the norm in other countries? I’m aware from reading some of these postings that there were structural problems with some single deck dual door bodies. Or was the main thing that the unions didn’t like them, as Ronnie mentions?
Keith
21/06/14 – 08:55
There were structural problems on double deckers as well. SELNEC had problems in later life with Mancunians. There were problems with accidents and the unions, in the interest of their members, took against them. Meant to reduce time at stops by having all passengers disembark at the centre door, all too often they didn’t and many tried to board there leaving the driver trying to collect fares, deal with any form of pre paid passes and monitor the centre door as well as keeping an eye on the seats remaining, in a difficult position. Multi doors work well elsewhere where either the bulk of fares are prepaid or there is a second crew member and where some form of load counting actually works – the technology of the time didn’t.
Phil Blinkhorn
21/06/14 – 15:21
Silly question, perhaps, but is it really a LEYLAND Atlantean? I ask because some for Scottish operators had ALBION badges, including Glasgow’s KUS607E which now resides at the St Helens museum.
Pete Davies
22/06/14 – 06:38
Yes this was definitely a Leyland Atlantean Pete as you can see the figure of Atlas on the badge whereas the Glasgow Albion badged Atlantean’s had the St Andrews cross in it’s place as can be seen on the attached photo of KUS 593E taken a couple of years later in central Glasgow.
Diesel Dave
22/06/14 – 09:05
I seem to remember that the Albion badge on the Atlantean was a Glasgow only spec.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/06/14 – 13:04
Thank you, Dave and Phil!
Pete Davies
23/06/14 – 06:33
It could be that it was more efficient to send several chassis in kit form to be assembled at the Albion works in Glasgow, and then onto Alexander to have the body fitted, rather than one at a time in completed form, after all, the Alexander works was at Falkirk, which is not that far from Glasgow. At the end of the day, any differences would probably be down to badge engineering.
Ronnie Hoye
16/08/14 – 05:49
The “Albion” Atlanteans supplied to Glasgow followed a batch of “Albion” PD3s. Leyland got the blame for deleting half the Albion range in the early 1950s after the Albion takeover, when in actual fact Albion were already in the process of doing just that when financial troubles caught up with them. The Albion badges were applied as a gesture to the Glaswegian population in an attempt to settle the ill-feeling.
Paul
17/08/14 – 07:35
Edinburgh and Lothian stuck with dual doors into the low floor era. The Leeds dual door buses gave 15 plus years of service. In later years they found themselves in such esoteric locations as Ilkley and Skipton following the absorption of WYRCC by Yorkshire Rider.
Manchester Corporation Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 1959 Metro-Cammell H44/33F
I feel prompted to make a first contribution to your fascinating forum after stumbling across it whilst looking for information concerning the jointly operated Stockport/Manchester Corporations’ Service 16 Chorlton – Stepping Hill. I was born in Chorlton, attended the grammar school there and recall the day my mother took me for a trip to Stockport on the newly introduced Service 16 on what, to me, was an unusual and interesting single decker with a central exit/entrance. Manchester had no such curiosities (the Royal Tiger ‘Crush Loaders’ with their central doors were still years away and the single deck Leyland (TS5?) used on Service 22 Levenshulme – Eccles was a back loader of sorts. Little did I know then that I should have the thrill of driving a Royal Tiger on Service 22 myself some 12 or 13 years hence! All this underlines my love of anything relating to Manchester buses from the period 1958 to 1989 when I finally put my pen away and began drawing my pension. Having worked alongside John Hodkinson in Devonshire Street’s Traffic Office, I was delighted to see his contribution on the piece about jointly operated Service 95/96. In fact it was this that prompted to make contact. Above is the shiny new Atlantean 3629 at Parker Street on it’s maiden outing, it had spent many weeks in Birchfields Road Garage with the rest of the delivery whilst Union issues were resolved. I remember seeing them there, looking so forlorn, becoming increasingly covered in dust as the weeks dragged by. They had to be put through the wash before going on the road!
Photograph and Copy contributed by David Cooper
10/07/14 – 07:12
David, your piece has brought back many memories of the period when the Evening News had regular articles on the dispute (allegedly sought by management by detailing the vehicles for Northenden depot routes where strong union opposition was expected) and the paper dubbed the vehicles Red Dragons -heaven knows why. Whilst the majority may have been gathering dust in Birchfields Rd, there were forays driven by management and inspectors. A number of runs were done down Wilmslow Rd during rush hour mornings for some reason, to the bemusement of many a prospective passenger, and one particular day three of the buses were parked at the side of Northenden depot on the public road. Once the unions and management found agreement the buses entered service on the Wythenshawe routes, then the 50 to Brooklands before moving to Parrs Wood where lower mid panels were often grazed at the tight left turn at the bottom of the ramp! If I can help with info about the 16 please ask.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/07/14 – 09:55
David I worked with John 1973 – 1975 at Princess Road Depot. Princess Road Depot like so many of the old Manchester Corporation/City Transport depots now gone.
Stephen Howarth
10/07/14 – 11:31
It’s a small world. I too worked with John Hodkinson briefly whilst a Schedules Clerk at Frederick Road, Salford in 1972/73. There were five of us in the Schedules Office – David Broadbent in charge, John, Peter Caunt, George Boswell and myself. I was the lowly junior, the only ‘foreigner’, who commuted every day across from ‘the dark side’ of the moors in Halifax. Incredibly all five of us were enthusiasts, with yet another – the late Keith Healey – working downstairs, it was a wonderful atmosphere to work in – sometimes it seemed more like a hobby than a job. I then took up the position of Traffic Clerk with the Corporation in my home town. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but it was the complete opposite of what I had experienced at SELNEC and boy did I quickly come to regret it!
John Stringer
10/07/14 – 14:05
I’ve done that more than once, John, with both musical and teaching posts. When I’ve arrived at the new job, it’s been a poison chalice. “Beware of what you wish for …..”
David Oldfield
11/07/14 – 06:55
John and I have exchanged notes of our experiences in the Halifax Traffic Office. In 1964 I travelled 200 miles to take up that job, but the atmosphere was such that I quit within two years. That was 10 years or so before John gave it a go, so it shows how deep seated was the malaise in the place. The Halifax GM might have been a ‘character’, but the tunnel vision at senior subordinate levels was utterly dispiriting.
Roger Cox
11/07/14 – 06:55
There were also a couple of times when I went out of the frying pan etc………………..also!
Chris Hebbron
11/07/14 – 06:56
Phil, such intimate knowledge of the entrance to Parrs Wood Depot via the ramp suggests to me that you might have had personal experience. You have certainly roused my curiosity, or am I barking up the wrong tree? The early Fleetlines and Atlanteans were, in my view, nowhere near as enjoyable to drive as a back loader. Most disturbing factor was the relative absence of sound from the engine. It all seemed and of course was, so remote from the ‘sharp end’. And then there was that awful ‘yaw’ (for want of a better word) that resulted from traversing a series of gullies with the nearside wheels. So much easier to control it when driving a conventional bus. I never got to drive a GM ‘Standard’. Perhaps they had had all the initial quirks ironed out? Those names from the Frederick Road Schedules Office certainly took me back, John. I worked with almost all those guys at some stage or other, though left Devonshire Street in 1972, returning in 1974 after a sojourn in the Hotel business. John H. could always be relied upon to provide the answers whenever we Mancunians needed to know something with a Salford bias. And I seem to remember he had an affinity with a certain Devon-based coaching operation!! I could reminisce all night but I can almost hear the yawns.
To close, here is a shot taken at the back of Hyde Road Works of 3520 awaiting disposal. She never looked right to me in Selnec livery but was a fascinating bus to drive – usually on Service 1 – Gatley.
David Cooper
11/07/14 – 11:31
David, my knowledge of the ramp at Parrs Wood comes from regular observation over the period from 1958 to 1965 when I would disembark from what was originally the #1 outside the depot to walk across Kingsway to take the #9,#16 or #80 to home on the way back from school. I also had irregular access to the depot through an friend’s neighbour who was an inspector.
3520 looks forlorn in your photo. It looked at its best when on the #1 in original livery, immaculate as Parrs Wood always turned out its star performers, and sounding more like an RT than a PD2. A few more observations about this batch of Atlanteans. They were delivered with thin, low back seats which were non standard. The rear wheel discs, standard on new deliveries at the time, were absent – probably to the relief of the fitters. Was Albert Neal compensating for the extra weight of the longer bus and higher passenger capacity in his continual fight to keep costs down? Whatever the reason, the next foray into rear engined buses, Fleetlines delivered in 1962, had standard seats and rear wheel discs. The Atlanteans were re-seated with standard seats from withdrawn Burlingham trolleybuses around 1966. Some drivers complained about the intrusion of both conductors and passengers into their workspace. Another driver complaint was lack of nearside visibility. There were signs instructing passengers not to stand on the platform area, something many did on back loaders after leaving their seat on approach to their stop, but the habit died hard. A more permanent annoyance for the drivers was the door construction with two part windows in each folding leaf, giving a restricted view to the left – and the doors would not open when in gear. The Fleetlines had full length glass in each leaf. Schoolboys quickly learned where the emergency engine stop was. Located above the bustle on the nearside, it was in reach and many a stop near schools became prolonged until authority in the shape of inspectors and head teachers jointly overcame the problem. Manchester took a long time to be convinced about the rear engine layout. Combined with the City of Manchester Police’s antipathy to 30ft buses in the city centre, it was nothing short of a revolution when the Mancunian appeared, just ten short years after 3629 and its sisters.
Phil Blinkhorn
13/07/14 – 06:54
Wow, may I join the reunion party please? I also worked at Devonshire Street, with David Cooper, David Broadbent and George Boswell among others. However, I was at the other end of the office, beyond Fred Thomas’s goldfish bowl, wherein he sat smoking his pipe and giggling to himself about the latest traffic absurdity. After three years on the lowest grade I was told that there was no prospect of promotion in the foreseeable future (which I can’t understand now, because we all knew that SELNEC was coming, and that changed everything). Basically it was dead men’s shoes and no-one was thinking of dying, so if you wanted to get on you had to move around. So I moved to Newport, which proved to be my poisoned chalice, and after five months I left the transport industry for good. The photo of a brand new Atlantean on the 101 stand reinforces a memory I’ll never forget. The 13-year-old me was so gobsmacked by these things that I just stood there while the entire 101 allocation came and went and the first one came back again. I suppose I could have got on one, but I had no idea where Greenbrow Road was.
Hi All! Maybe this page should be titled “Old Boys Club”! Comments have referred to the ramp into Parrs Wood. When the guard-walking-in-front-of-the-bus type smog used to come down, the garage staff used to keep one bay clear inside the depot so the cars that had faithfully followed the bus to find their way home, found themselves inside the depot instead and needed to get out!
John Hodkinson
13/07/14 – 18:22
Peter, that SCT.61 site was new to me (I don’t get out much these days!) and I found it totally absorbing – rather like ‘The Manchester Bus’ but with the superfluous bits left out. Many thanks.
David Cooper
14/07/14 – 07:46
Here’s a link to how 3520 looks nowadays – much happier but evidently suffering from delusions of Hyde Roadness. www.flickr.com/photos/
Peter Williamson
14/07/14 – 09:53
Apart from the blinds, that could be 3520 on any day of its first couple of years in service.
Phil Blinkhorn
14/07/14 – 17:25
Like John I had a “couldn’t believe my eyes” moment when I first saw an Atlantean. It was an exciting day in 1960. I had just passed my “eleven plus” and as a reward my mum bought me my first “Combined volume” loco spotting book. We made the purchase in the city centre when changing buses en route to visit relatives. We just missed the #101, which was one of the usual 44xx Daimlers so we stood waiting for the next one, which turned out to be my first sighting of an Atlantean. On seeing the flat front, my first thought was “How did a trolleybus get away from the wires?” but then I noticed the number – 3627 – so it was obviously a Leyland. And we were going to ride on it, two bits of excitement in one day! I couldn’t wait for our return journey that evening, but to my great disappointment it was just another CVG6. A few weeks later we made another visit, riding on 3630 and 3628, but after that they disappeared from the #101. In the autumn of 1963 I noticed an occasional Atlantean running through Middleton, my home town, with “special” on the blinds. These were driver training runs before the batch was transferred to Queens Road Garage, at first on the #163 but soon moving to the #121. I became a regular traveller on the #121 in the school holidays, just for the pleasure of riding on these buses. I always went for the inward facing front seat, which offered not only good forward vision but also a chance to watch the driver. In later life, some of the batch had minor differences. 3621 had “LEYLAND” spelt across the rear bonnet in separate letters (I believe this one also had an O.680 engine at one point), 3626 had a much newer steering wheel with a slightly different design, and our friend 3629 was only a 77 seater while all the others seated 78, the difference being the inward facing front seat which was a treble on most of the batch, but a double on 3629. Finally, 3624 was the only example to receive Selnec livery. Eighteen months later Queens Road Depot got the first of the PDR1/2 Atlanteans (3721-35) for the #163, but these were very different sounding, thanks to their Daimler gearboxes.
This is one of a batch of 22 very contentious Leyland Atlanteans with Willowbrook H44/32F bodies delivered to Coventry Transport in January 1965, the issue being that they were Leylands delivered to the home city of Daimler who since the war had been almost the only supplier of buses to the company. The order may have been made to apply some pressure to Daimler for some reason which appears to have been successful as a similar batch of Fleetlines with near identical bodies were delivered within six months these were followed by more Fleetlines with ECW and then East Lancs bodies until the mid seventies, I think one of the Atlanteans appeared at the 1964 Earls Court show.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
20/07/14 – 17:32
In Commercial Motor magazine dated 11th September 1964 the following report was published.
“Leyland Motors Ltd. has introduced a new version of the Atlantean rear-engined chassis which is fitted with a drop-centre rear axle, permitting a straight-through, stepless gangway in the lower saloon. Delivery is now being made to Coventry Corporation of 22 buses of this type, fitted with 76-seat bodies by Willowbrook Ltd. Overall height of the new vehicles is 14 ft. 0 in. unladen, 4 in, less than the normal ‘highbridge’ Atlantean, yet ample headroom is still provided in each saloon. One of Coventry’s new Atlanteans will be shown on the Willowbrook stand at the Commercial Motor Show, and several other examples employing the new chassis will also be seen. Side and front elevations of the new Willowbrook bodied Atlantean are shown in the accompanying drawing. Ample luggage space is a feature of this body.”
Stephen Howarth
21/07/14 – 07:26
Dave, if your theory is correct then the issue with Daimler may well have been price. I have heard that Salford’s change of allegiance from Daimler to Leyland in 1963 was for that reason, although they of course never went back.
Peter Williamson
21/07/14 – 07:27
Could the idea be sold in Coventry, then, Stephen, because the Atlanteans had Daimler running gear and the great BL meltdown had begun? Or am I wrong? These do look like uglibus candidates- I haven’t seen one, but Yorkshire Traction had some…. www.flickr.com/photos/ The glass fibre fronts & domes look like add on body kits. Interestingly the Coventry examples look distinctly under ventilated, whilst Tracky go to the other extreme.
Joe
21/07/14 – 07:29
These Atlanteans were of the newly introduced PDR1/2 model which was fitted with a Daimler dropped centre rear axle and gearbox, which was intended to facilitate lowheight bodywork without the need for a sunken side gangway at the rear, which was a feature of early lowbridge Atlanteans based on the PDR1/1 model. I don’t think Coventry had any need of lowbridge vehicles, but the inclusion of Daimler components would have standardisation benefits when the fleet later included Fleetlines. Presumably this was always the intention. Manchester Corporation also bought the PDR1/2 model (132 of them) alongside their 130 Fleetlines with MCW “Orion” bodies. I always thought these had a rather odd mixture of sound effects. Many years later, I would drive Daimler Fleetlines with Leyland Engines (bought by Crosville from Southdown) which felt more like Atlanteans than Fleetlines, the engine sound on these tended to dominate the gearbox sound. These buses also had direct air gearchange and a step from the platform to the lower deck – both “Atlanteanish” features. I thought these Willowbrook bodies were a very attractive design, enhanced by the Coventry livery. They introduced a more conventionally shaped service number blind, after years of the rather odd arrangement with equally sized and shaped destination and service number screens.
Don McKeown
21/07/14 – 15:21
At the time of the order Daimler was an independent company that was part of the Jaguar group along with Guy. At the time Leyland Motors was a very profitable concern it all went pear shaped after the shot gun marriage between them and BMC in the late sixties. Although Leyland were already being starting to give the industry what they wanted and not the other way round.
Chris Hough
21/07/14 – 15:28
When Coventry issued the tender for this order, they specified a low floor design, presumably thinking that only Daimler could deliver such a vehicle. However Leyland, no doubt spotting the opportunity to sell to Daimler’s home city hastily put together their own low floor design. They won the order on price but delivery was delayed by development problems. This is not the livery that these buses carried at delivery. The maroon was originally only applied to the lower skirt, a band above the lower windows, another below the upper windows and the roof. The destination blinds also differed, as shown on the blueprint image.
John McSparron
22/07/14 – 06:53
The Yorkshire Traction vehicle shown in the link above was one of four that were diverted from a Devon General order, indeed they entered service in Devon General livery and ran in that form for some time. Before eventually finishing up in the nondescript NBC colours shown in the photo they did run in traditional YTC Livery of BET crimson and light cream, a combination that really suited this bodywork.
Andrew Charles
22/07/14 – 06:54
Most sources say that although the PDR1/2 did have a Daimler gearbox, the drop-centre rear axle was the Albion Lowlander unit rather than the one from the Fleetline. With regard to the odd sound effects in Manchester, the only engine officially offered in the PDR1/2 was the O600, since the Daimler gearbox, at that early stage in its history, couldn’t take the extra torque of the O680 in Atlantean fettle. However, Manchester wanted O680 engines for durability rather than extra power, and specified a specially derated version at 130bhp. This may account for their subdued and breathy engine note, which allowed the gearbox to sing more prominently than in some other applications.
Peter Williamson
I am sure that Peter W is correct that the PDR1/2 was fitted with a Daimler (‘Daimatic’) gearbox, but not axle. Further to Don McK, I don’t recall that the inclusion of a Daimler gearbox in the PDR1/2 was a consideration in the decision to buy it – the decision was based solely upon a significantly lower tender price from Leyland, and, even then, the order was placed only after furious council debate. I’ve always presumed that Leyland deliberately tendered low in order to capitalise on the potential publicity, and this it certainly did – for several months, for instance, there was a standing advertisement on the rear cover of ‘Buses Illustrated’, the message of which was ‘Coventry, home to the British motor industry, chooses Leyland..’, or words to that effect. Leyland did, at least, acknowledge that Coventry, and not Leyland, was home to the British motor industry, and its advertising strategy seems to have failed to impress, since I think the Fleetline comfortably outsold the PDR1/2, the latter proving problematic.
David Call
25/07/14 – 12:19
This style of body by Willowbrook had a very long life it was used as late as 1976 to re-body a bus damaged in the Derby depot fire.
Chris Hough
26/07/14 – 06:42
I would challenge the theory that the Daimler gearbox in the Atlantean PDR1/2 could not cope with the torque of the O.680 engine. At that time, the standard Atlantean setting for the O.680 was 150 bhp at 2000 rpm, with a maximum torque of 485 lb ft at 1000 rpm. The corresponding figures for the contemporary 6LX were 150 bhp at 1700 rpm, and 485 lb ft torque at 1050 rpm. Thus the Gardner delivered identical output at rather lower rpm. Any derating of the O.680 in the Atlantean PDR1/2 must have been undertaken for economy reasons, bearing in mind that the Leyland engine required an extra 300 rpm to produce the same power as the Gardner. Reducing the governed speed of the O.680 to 1700 rpm would have reduced the output to 130 bhp.
Roger Cox
27/07/14 – 06:41
I don’t think any early Fleetlines had 6LXs rated at 150bhp. Manchester’s were rated at 132bhp, presumably with a corresponding reduction in torque, and I thought at the time that that was the standard Fleetline rating. But if the reduction in the O.680’s power was taken care of by simply lowering the governed speed, then I agree that there would be no reduction in torque there. The idea that the PDR1/2 wasn’t offered with the O.680 option must have come from somewhere, and the Daimler gearbox certainly was strengthened before the CRL6 Fleetline came on the market. Perhaps someone just put two and two together and created a bit of folklore.
Peter Williamson
08/10/15 – 07:13
Talk about being late to the party! According to “The Leyland Bus Mk2” (D. Jack) page 325, the O.680 engine was “not available in the PDR1/2, owing to torque limitations on the rear axle”. The same page confirms it carried the Lowlander rear axle.
Allan White
09/10/15 – 07:18
Better late than never, Allan. All is resolved, I think.
Peter Williamson
20/10/15 – 09:07
The attached photo shows another of the batch 354, CDU 354B in an unusual location at the rear of PMT Clough Street depot in Hanley (note the broken down PMT lowbridge Atlantean in the background.) The reason was that PMT had recently installed a Dawson ‘Cyclone’ bus interior cleaner at Hanley Depot in an attempt to improve and speed up nightly interior cleaning. The unit was a massive vacuum cleaner with a bellows which was pushed out to the bus entrance by pneumatic rams, it was switched on and hey presto all the loose rubbish within the bus was sucked into the cleaner. A man with an air lance entered by the emergency door and agitated the less willing items of rubbish into the air stream. Coventry were interested in the concept and on 25th March 1971 sent up 354 (maybe with the previous days rubbish still on the bus??) to see how it performed. As the vacuum plant was situated immediately before the bus wash, a trip through the wash was necessary hence the photo.
Ian Wild
21/10/15 – 06:37
Brilliant, Ian!
Pete Davies
23/10/15 – 06:28
It was a long time ago Pete and I can’t remember how reliable the machine was. It can’t have been exclusive to PMT, does anyone know of other Operators who had one? I do recall that we had to cut apertures at odd places inside the buses eg at floor level in the offside partition at the top of the staircase. It can’t have been much fun inside the bus in a force 8 gale!! I don’t recall losing any seat cushions…..
Ian Wild
23/10/15 – 16:37
Trent Motor Traction at Meadow Road Derby, and United Automobile Services had them. Whether this was at all Depots I do not know. Malcolm Hitchin MBE in his book ‘Keep the Wheels Turning’, recounting his 50 years in Trent engineering, mentions, that very early on after having the system installed, that, if they did not open the emergency door, before starting the vacuum, then it was possible that the pressure from the vacuum could suck in the bus windows.
Stephen Howarth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
12/11/15 – 14:23
Think these units actually had a self changing gear semi automatic box not a Daimatic. Reason for the purchase of Leylands was that Daimler thinking they had a monopoly put in a price and refused to negotiate even when Leyland put the lower price in. There was much heated debate in the Council Transport Committee meetings and when the order was placed with Leyland there was a lot of aggressive words from Daimler Trade Unions. The follow-on order for Daimlers was placed before the Leylands were delivered. I made it a task to ride on all the vehicles from both batches and upstairs they had for Coventry 3 single seats behind each other on the nearside. Willowbrook did not make a good job of the body with lots of water ingress from very early on manifesting itself in brown streaks across the upside dome. Body vibration was much more pronounced on the Leylands and from both batches I remember being stranded with linkage failures to the engine from the semi gearbox which I presume was pneumatic pipes working loose. Full buses in rush hour running every 6 minutes dumping a full load in between stops was not a great experience for getting to school on time. I ended up switching routes to one which had rear loaders just for reliability and avoiding of school detentions
Nice body – pity about the chassis! Neepsend produced a striking looking body (ok, I know – it was an East Lancs design) for the 20 buses delivered in 1964/5 plus a further 20 in 1966. I rather preferred this first batch with the red upholstery and red wheel centres. They also combined sliding windows and rotovents in the top deck. They were regular performers on the cross city 82 service. 348 of this batch had ducted air saloon heating as a trial, later to become almost universal, as opposed to the underseat heaters of the remainder of the batch. The bus is in Fargate, Sheffield, nowadays pedestrianised but many of the buildings are still there.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
02/03/15 – 07:32
Did Sheffield Corporation specify the PDR1/2 chassis in order to provide more headroom on both decks, in the same manner as the Nottingham Renowns? It’s difficult to tell from the photograph but this vehicle doesn’t look to be low height.
Chris Barker
04/03/15 – 15:45
These were 14ft 3in if memory serves me right. They were designed to fit under a low bridge at Darfield on the 70 to Upton. There were special instructions in the Drivers Handbook about both batches.
Neil Hudson
04/03/15 – 15:45
Manchester Corporation had 132 of the PDR1/2 model. At the time it was thought that this was for reasons of standardisation, in that the gearbox was the same as on the many Fleetlines in the fleet. These vehicles had Metro-Cammell “Orion” bodies to an intermediate height of 14 feet and half an inch. They sounded very different from PDR1/1 Atlanteans, the gearbox whine being very prominent.
Don McKeown
05/03/15 – 07:11
It seems a bit unlikely that Sheffield would have bought 40 A fleet buses to a special reduced height for a B service requiring perhaps two buses. I suspect that it was coincidental that they happened to fit under the bridge on route 70 but maybe a Sheffield expert can confirm this.
Ian Wild
06/03/15 – 06:41
During my time in Sheffield in the 1960s and 70s, there were three routes which required low-height double deckers – service 70 to Upton (a C route) and B routes 6 and 19 to Dinnington. The C fleet had no suitable double deckers but only one bus was needed on service 70 (joint operator Yorkshire Traction normally used saloons). All three routes were served by the B fleet’s lowbridge Regents and later by Bridgemasters from the A fleet, in which fleet there was no requirement for low-height deckers! A lot of mileage balancing must have gone on. I’ve no recollection of the Neepsend Atlanteans being so used and I’m fairly sure a saloon was used on 70 by the time I left the area in 1975.
Geoff Kerr
07/03/15 – 07:14
My understanding of the Manchester PDR1/2 situation is that there was a low(ish) bridge on a service to Partington (222/223) which was run jointly with North Western. When this service first started, MCTD didn’t have any buses to put on it. They didn’t like the idea of being a ghost operator, but neither did they like the idea of buying special buses for one route. So they changed their standard spec for both Atlantean and Fleetline bodies to the intermediate height, which required the use of the PDR1/2 chassis for the Atlanteans. All subsequent double deckers were built to this height until the Mancunians appeared.
Peter Williamson
07/03/15 – 17:14
Peter, am I right in thinking that this arrangement meant the Atlanteans and Fleetlines shared a common drive train.
Phil Blinkhorn
08/03/15 – 06:54
Phil, the PDR1/2 used the Daimler concentric drive gearbox of the Fleetline in conjunction with the dropped centre axle from the Lowlander. Daimler used its own dropped centre rear axle.
Roger Cox
08/03/15 – 16:12
Thanks Roger
Phil Blinkhorn
25/03/15 – 16:24
I think they also operated from Bridge St. on the Shiregreen route, 47 or 48? They were always parked by Firth Park shops.
Ribble Motor Services 1962 Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 Weymann “Orion” L39/33F
Ribble bought a hundred early Atlanteans with MCW “Orion” bodywork in 1959/60, seventy highbridge and thirty lowbridge. These were followed by a reversion to the Titan model, with ninety five PD3/5’s with Metro-Camell “Orion” fully fronted bodies in 1961/2. These were followed by fourteen lowbridge Atlanteans, including this one, which proved to be the last PDR1/1 to enter the fleet. Subsequently Titans and Lowlanders were bought, followed by fully lowheight PDR1/2 Atlanteans. It was generally thought that Ribble preferred the Titan but used Atlanteans for lowbridge/lowheight vehicles. The original version of the Atlantean Chassis had a dropped-centre front axle, and a “normal” rear axle. This meant that the lowheight body could be built with “normal” seating at the front, but at the rear a side gangway arrangement was necessary. The last four rows of seats were thus on a raised platform, in four passenger benches, but with the gangway on the nearside – the opposite side from the conventional lowbridge double-decker. This photo was taken in the twilight years of the bus, which is wearing the NBC poppy red livery rather than the traditional cherry red livery used by Ribble for so many years. Despite it’s age it was being one-man-operated on an extremely long journey. 1807 is seen here passing through Troutbeck Bridge on the almost legendary service 555, heading from Keswick to Lancaster. This lengthy route still runs, still operated by double-deckers, passing through the Lake District – surely one of England’s most scenic bus routes.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
05/03/15 – 07:13
Very nice, Don. Thanks for posting. This route used to be the 68 when I first took an interest in buses [in my secondary school days in Lancaster] – I’m not sure when it was renumbered to 555.
Pete Davies
Thanks for posting Don. I know the area fairly well having stayed in Troutbeck Bridge a time or two. To Pete, If it helps, I have just consulted my Ribble Area No 1 timetable, dated 30th September 1963 and under Table 50 it shows these services :- Service 68, Keswick to Lancaster Service 70 Kendal to Lancaster Service 555 Keswick to Kendal So 555 was shown in use at that time, be it for only part of the route, with 555 journeys shown separately as either between Ambleside & Keswick or between Kendal and Ambleside, but strangely for the most part they did not connect !
