Tag: Leyland Royal Tiger

Pennine Motor Services – Leyland Royal Tiger – LWY 702


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Pennine Motor Services
1953
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13
Leyland B44F

This photo first appeared on the “Do You Know” page of this website and thanks go to David Oldfield and Dave Farrier for the following information. Pennine Motor Services were and still are a small independent operating in the lower part of the Yorkshire Dales, They originally had their depot in the small village of Gargrave which is about 5 miles north west of Skipton. That depot has now been demolished to make way for an housing estate and they currently use the old Ribble Motor Services depot which is at the bottom of the Coach Street car park in Skipton (see Tony Youngs comment below). They were always a Leyland operator with a mix of buses and coaches more often than not bought brand new. In later years, PSU3 Leopard/Willowbrook Duel Purposes were bought, before deregulation. That was the beginning of the end when they went over to second-hand Leyland Nationals. Their current fleet is 13 step-entry Dennis Darts.

In the early seventies Pennine expanded by taking over Ezra Laycock of Barnoldswick. Prior to the advent of the Nationals the fleet was made up of Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopards bought from a variety of sources. They also for a very brief time had a pair of Leyland Swifts which were quickly sold and they are one of a handful of operators who do not have any low floor buses in their fleet.

Chris Hough

Coach Street car park building is now a Marks & Spencer store. Pennine Depot is now in another former Ribble Depot on Broughton Road Skipton.

David Clarke

Did I read somewhere recently that – 24 years after deregulation – Pennine is coming under attack on one of its routes (maybe Burnley)? Let’s hope it doesn’t spell the end for this operator.

Dave Towers

31/03/11 – 15:43

Pennine now have 3 low floor buses, Dennis Dart SLF Plaxton Pointer, ex-Bus Eireann, numbered D17 – D19.
To correct information above, the Pennine depot in Skipton was near the High Street Car park on Jerry Croft, not Coach Street Car park which is on the other side of the town centre. The new Marks & Spencer food store is on the site of the former depot, accessed via Jerry Croft from the High Street.
Pennine are indeed facing strong competition from Transdev who are now competing with the 215 between Skipton and Burnley via Earby and Barnoldswick. Pennine have a good reputation in Skipton and are part of the local scene. We can’t afford to lose them.

Tony Young

04/04/11 – 07:11

The Pennine depot is in the former Ribble depot at Broughton Road which was built by Old Ben Bus Services taken over by Ribble. Afterwards it became a textile Mill and then back to being a bus depot.

Philip Carlton

16/04/11 – 05:00

My recollection is that the current Pennine Depot in Skipton spent some time in use by a tyre and exhaust retailer after closure by Ribble.

Jonathan Cadwallader

14/06/11 – 08:52

I note with sadness that Norman Simpson, the leading light of Pennine Motors, passed away earlier this month. I worked at Craven District Council from its inception in 1974 until 1988, and public transport became part of my remit. Mr Simpson was, of course, one of my councillors too! We had an excellent working relationship, not least of all because of his innate courtesy, and his clear understanding of the respective (and respected) roles of elected members and salaried officers. And this was despite our being some way apart philosophically on the issue of the role of the public sector in public transport planning and support!

Richard Tulloch

19/07/11 – 17:14

I made a comment above, subsequently expanded on by Tony, about the competition from Transdev. Having a day off last week I decided to go and have a look for myself. I am originally from Lancaster and recall as a young spotter in the 1960s seeing Pennine buses in my home area, but I had never actually made a journey on one of them. Anyway, the situation is that Pennine run an hourly service to Burnley (215) whereas Transdev run two services (29/30) one via Earby and one via Barnoldswick, whereas the Pennine route covers both of these towns. The Transdev routes leave at XX:00 and XX:30 and the Pennine departs Skipton at XX:05. On my journey at 11:05 the driver issued 21 tickets and on the return at 13:25, 24 tickets, although most were for concessionaries. I would suggest that 3 journeys per hour is certainly “overbussed” but noted whilst in Burnley that Pennine also run extra 215s as short-workings from Burnley to Barnoldswick only; the one I saw leaving Burnley at 12:55 was completely empty. Presumably these extras are Pennine’s way of striking back. From Pennine’s timetable several of their buses actually terminated in the evening at Barnsoldswick so presumably they have a small garage/outstation there. Can anyone confirm?

Dave Towers

17/10/11 – 06:00

Before retiring I owned a radiator rebuilding business in Earby and was proud to have Norman Simpson of Pennine as a regular customer. My recollection was that they tended to buy well used Leyland coaches, rebuild them and put into service. This was of course very good for trade! They did indeed have a garage in Barnoldswick, Gas works Rd if I remember, big enough for about 4 vehicles, one coach stored there was a Royal Tiger about 1950, motor show exhibit, lots of chrome—I never saw it move. They also had a stop, outside I think at Settle—-I recall a drunk stealing a coach for a lift home one night. Not bus related, but Norman Simpson always favoured big Citroen cars.

Colin Newby

29/01/12 – 17:51

Superb machine. The photo looks like the work of the late great Bob Mack

Tony Greig

17/04/12 – 14:09

In reply to Colin, MTC 757 (the bus version) and MTD 235 (the coach version) were regular visitors to Lancaster. It’s MTD 235 which spent several years in store in the garage in Barnoldswick, and is now at Broughton Road. Sadly, in respect of both vehicles, my black and white prints are long gone.

Pete Davies

25/04/14 – 11:54

Very sadly Pennine will cease operations on 16th May 2014. This is a combination of Mainline competition on the Burnley route and low concession rate from NYCC on the busy 580 Skipton Giggleswick Route. This was a complete surprise as Pennine now have all but three Darts Low floor access and another one just purchased ready for painting. A very sad event after 88 years.

Chris Wright

25/04/14 – 14:27

Damnation. Aside from the social and business consequences of the closure, the countryside will lose one of the more unique liveries on the street scene.

Orla Nutting

20/05/14 – 08:37

The very last public journey was the 21:15 Skipton to Settle, operated by Dennis Dart D8 (KU52 RYG). Here’s a less than perfect shot taken just after it had been reversed into the small Settle depot. The vehicle on the left (D18, W948 ETW) had actually been back at depot for almost four hours, but D8’s driver made a point of switching on its lights for the benefit of the assembled enthusiasts. //s1318.photobucket.com/  Also shown is a daytime shot of the Settle depot, which, as can be seen, is for sale, as is the Barnoldswick depot. The Settle depot, particularly, strikes me as a potentially nice discreet home for a couple of preserved single deckers – 36-footers can be accommodated, but no bigger.

David Call

21/05/14 – 17:44

RIP – Pennine Motor Services.

Stephen Howarth

22/05/14 – 07:19

Indeed Stephen. Very sad.

David Oldfield

24/05/14 – 08:25

I’ve only just come back from a few days around the Yorkshire Dales, basing ourselves at Skipton. Only yesterday, a wet day, we passed a building and glimpsed the rear of two parked Pennine buses poking out. It was not convenient to stop, although I wished I’d been able to. Although I’m not good at colours, I thought they were orange and black and it looked a very passable livery.
Sad indeed, as you all say.

Chris Hebbron

26/05/14 – 12:09

Re Philips Carlton’s comment of 4.4.11, according to the “Commercial Motor” of January 1st 1929, the original owner of Pennine’s Broughton Road garage was the “Old Bill” service owned by W. Wisemall not the Old Ben service.

Nigel Turner

26/05/14 – 13:56

Nigel, I don’t know anything really about the origins of the building, but in the 1960s the nearby filling station was definitely known as “Old Bill Motors.”

Chris Youhill

26/05/14 – 15:44

Having had a further look round the internet it seems that the owner of “Old Bill” was William Wiseman not Wisemall. The Commercial Motor stated that he was going to continue his existing haulage business. Pennine have now advertised the premises for rent at £40,000 per annum.

Nigel Turner

26/05/14 – 16:58

Old Bill
Old Bill_2

Reading the latest posts on the Pennine closure and “Old Bill”, reminded me that I had these photos of William Wiseman original garage and its later replacement both on Broughton Road, Skipton. Is this still the Pennine depot?Photographer unknown.

Mike Davies

26/05/14 – 17:51

Old Bill’s depot is nothing like the current Pennine depot however the house in the background looks very much like the second house in Gisburn Street which is by the side of the Pennine depot.

Nigel Turner

26/05/14 – 17:51

Old Bill_3

Another of Mikes shot if it helps.

Peter

27/05/14 – 06:49

With the aid of Google Maps, the second photo confirms the location, the houses in the background are in Marton Street and behind that is “Marton Mills” which seems to have lost a few stories but the chimney is still there.

Nigel Turner

27/05/14 – 06:50

I think you’d better ignore what I said above (20/5) about the Settle depot being suitable for housing two preserved single deckers – from what I’ve seen of the going rates for sale/letting, it would be unaffordable! It’s a nice little depot, though, all the same.

David Call

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

07/09/15 – 07:11

Such a shame that Pennine have stopped for good. I loved riding on their Dennis Plaxton buses. It’s been over a year since they ceased operations, but they are still missed. They were that extra bus that you got if it happened to come while you were waiting at the bus stop. They were buses you could depend on to get from A to B with no fuss. Sure they were a few drawbacks vs the more popular Transdev buses, but many more benefits.
The main drawback of the bus service was the limited frequency of buses – only 1 an hour. Compare that to Transdev’s 8 an hour along the mainline route. I bet many avoided catching Pennine’s buses because if they bought a return ticket, they could only use it on Pennine’s buses which were too few for the popular route between Colne and Burnley. That is why it was mainly used by pensioners as they did not have to worry about fares.
However the fares were cheaper on Pennine’s buses than Transdev’s for the same journey, so it was still probably cheaper to get a Pennine bus one way and a Transdev bus back, than get a Transdev return.
Another thing is that it was a quicker journey than Transdev not just because the bus had fewer passengers, but also because the bus did not hang around for long at the bus station unlike Transdev. The buses were also far more punctual than Transdev’s. I can’t recall a single time when Pennine’s buses were late. Transdev’s buses are more often late than on-time. Sometimes they are terribly late for no apparent reason at quiet times. Sometimes the bus is at the bus station due to depart but the driver is nowhere to be seen! This never happened with Pennine.
A few months after Pennine folded, Moving People came along but their buses are very infrequent. They run only a few a day. I’ve only been on one of their buses twice so far because I so rarely see them. They have started a new J12 service which passes Junction 12 of the M65 (but all the buses on the main road do so why they called it that there’s no point). It goes to Burnley but diverts at Casterton Avenue and goes past the hospital and rejoins the main road at Duke Bar.
So Moving People are hardly a replacement for Pennine. They don’t run any buses to Barnoldswick or Skipton. So far there is still a gap that has not been filled by the departure of Pennine and I feel that gap will still be there for some time to come.

Jimmy

Pennine – Leyland Royal Tiger – MTC 757 & MTD 235

Pennine - Leyland Royal Tiger - MTC 757


Both photographs by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Pennine Motor Services  

MTC 757 – 1950 – Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 – Brush B44F

MTD 235 – 1952 – Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15 – Leyland C41C

There has been some discussion on another posting about the former Leyland demonstrators, MTC 757 and MTD 235, the latter being still with Pennine and mentioned in the new PSV Circle listing on preserved buses. I have “bought” slides of these two, and I know when and where they were taken, but I’ve no idea of the photographers. MTC 757, the bus version, is seen in Malham in June 1964. MTD 235 is seen in Gargrave in September 1967. MTC 757 had a Brush bus body, while MTD 235 is quite clearly Leyland’s own. “The Dalesman Cafe” on the right of the lower shot was still thriving when I was last in Gargrave a few months ago!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

05/08/12 – 12:31

Wouldn’t you put the dates of these two the other way round? The bus looks remarkably modern and simple for 1950- even the peaked front dome (or is that a trick of the light?) Could it be a rebuild? On the other hand the Leyland (export?) body looks a bit 1940’s Detroit at the front, especially that chrome “dribble”.

Joe

05/08/12 – 14:11

Joe, it’s definitely a trick of the light – MTC 757 did not have a peaked dome, and was a very neat looking bus for the time. It was built in 1950, and acquired by Pennine in 1951. They withdrew it in 1967 and it is believed to have been scrapped.
MTD 235 was the prototype for the Leyland Royal Tiger coach body, and as originally built it did not have the multi-windowed ‘lantern’ type windscreen arrangement seen here and familiar on all the production examples, though it must have been modified very early on, as all the photos I’ve seen of it with Pennine show it as it is here. I must rack my brain (quite difficult nowadays) and try to remember which book I have that shows it in its original form and report back. Don’t hold your breath !

John Stringer

05/08/12 – 14:34

I had – please note the past tense! – black and whites of both these vehicles, and taken at Lancaster Bus Station. MTC most certainly did not have a peaked front dome. I have a copy of the Pennine history by Donald Binns in collaboration with the operator, which has a photo of her on page 49. The caption includes “It was scrapped in August 1967 after 16 years service and with 825,000 miles on the clock”.

Pete Davies

05/08/12 – 14:35

The dates given in the posting would seem to be correct. MTC 757 was a Royal Tiger PSU1/13 with Brush B44F body built as a demonstrator in 1950, and bought by Simpson of Gargrave t/a Pennine in 1952. Brush ceased building psv bodies in 1952. MTD 235 was also a Leyland demonstrator, and it carried the standard Leyland 41 seat coach body for this model, though the chrome trim was adapted to meet customer choice, and some examples did not have the “swept under” front panelwork. This body continued to be available up to the time that Leyland closed its coachbuilding facilities in 1954. The PSU1/13 version of the Royal Tiger had the horizontal O.600 engine coupled with a four speed synchromesh gearbox and vacuum brakes.

Roger Cox

05/08/12 – 15:06

MTD 235 is still owned by Pennine and is kept at Barnoldswick and is worked on when time permits.

Philip Carlton

06/08/12 – 07:27

The Brush body was a nice design and must have been one of the very earliest on an underfloor engined chassis (apart from BMMO). Quite different to those supplied to Yorkshire Traction/Woollen. Presumably it was 7ft 6in wide?

Chris Barker

06/08/12 – 08:34

Chris, MTC and MTD were both to the usual 8ft width for underfloor engined vehicles of the time, so far as I am aware.

Pete Davies

11/08/12 – 07:23

Think 8′ was standard width for these underfloors. Although they still existed quite recently as a heavy engineering and railway manufacturer, Brush effectively became Willowbrook in bus terms. [Not sure who bought whom.] The next Royal Tigers for Tracky were Willowbrook – but built by the same men in the same factory.

David Oldfield

11/08/12 – 12:07

Several Royal Tigers were built to 7ft 6in width, it was offered by Leyland as an option. Hebble and Devon General had some Willowbrook bodied examples.
Brush are still very much in business, in Loughborough adjacent to the railway station. It was just their bus building activities which they disposed of in 1952. All production was then transferred to Willowbrook including some double deck Daimlers for Derby which were in build at the time and Brush designs disappeared almost immediately.

Chris Barker

12/08/12 – 07:16

Willowbrook existed in Loughborough from 1931, totally independent of Brush. They occupied the retail site now known as Willowbrook Park.
Brush voluntarily quit the bus body building enterprise in 1952, but locals tell me that their designs were passed to Willowbrook.
As Chris says, Brush are still in business, but they are a mere shadow of what they once were, and are no longer the town`s biggest employer. Once upon a time, they were the second largest tramcar builder in the UK, and that was just part of their total business!
What about Pennine though! Still in business, and they have seen it all and survived it all, and still continue as a small independent. I remember them well from my courting days, with wife to be living past Settle, on the Pennine route!
Good old Happy Days are getting even happier!

John Whitaker

12/08/12 – 07:18

I thought Pennine only had a garage in Skipton, but from Philip’s comment above, and from looking at their current timetable showing some early morning services starting in Barnsoldswick, I realise they have a garage there as well. Does anyone know how many vehicles are accommodated there; presumably only 4 or 5?

Dave Towers

28/08/12 – 14:29

The Pennine garage at Barnoldswick was acquired with the business of Ezra Laycock Ltd in 1972. As an ex-Laycock employee I ought to be able to confidently tell you the depot’s capacity – I can’t quite do that, but I think that the answer is five, although in Laycock days vehicles were parked outside as well. According to the timetable three buses start and finish at Barnoldswick, so that is presumably how many operational buses are kept at the depot. I did have it in my head that MTD 235 had been moved to Skipton, but I may have imagined that bit.
As far as I am aware Pennine also continues to use the small depot at Settle, capacity two vehicles.

David Call

29/08/12 – 07:26

I notice that Pete Davies has mentioned (on the Pennine LWY 702 posting) that MTD 235 is indeed now resident at the Skipton depot.

David Call

29/08/12 – 18:59

All is explained, at last. The section about MTC 757 & MTD 235 appears under a total of four headings – Brush (bodybuilder), Leyland (bodybuilder), Pennine (operator), and Leyland Royal Tiger. Only under the heading of Leyland Royal Tiger is there a section devoted to Pennine’s LWY 702, and it is at the foot of that section where Pete Davies has mentioned that MTD 235 is now at Skipton depot.
I would not expect LWY 702 to be mentioned under Brush, of course, but I am surprised that it does not at least get a mention under Pennine (operator). As to whether it should appear under Leyland (bodybuilder) or even Leyland (chassis builder), I suppose you will have to draw a line somewhere regarding what gets included and what doesn’t, there were an awful lot of Leyland buses manufactured. In passing perhaps I could mention that I noticed that under the heading of Leyland Royal Tiger Cub, only one of the three sections actually relates to an example of that model. The other two refer to the infinitely more common Leyland Tiger Cub.
Should I trawl through the other headings checking for similar errors/anomalies? It would beat counting sheep, I suppose.

David Call

30/08/12 – 06:56

The comments engendered by entries to this Forum frequently range far and wide, often well beyond the strict confines of the original submission. We have all had at least one reprimand, not, be it noted, from our webmaster, for straying from the initial subject, but that is entirely within the spirit of this site. The wealth of interest, information and detail that emerges thereby is invaluable. I think that we should go on regarding ourselves as a bus enthusiasts’ equivalent of Dr. Johnson’s Literary Club, with free ranging discussion. Cross referencing every point made in the “comment” columns would be a nightmarish task. Let us just be very grateful for this splendid site.

Roger Cox

30/08/12 – 11:47

Agreed, Roger. It’s worth remembering, too, that, although not as good as cross-referencing, there is a search facility on the website which I’ve found useful a couple of times.

Chris Hebbron

31/08/12 – 07:24

I think most of us form a loose group of cyber friends with a common purpose. I think that overrides any jobsworth tendency to pedantry – and that comes from one of the world’s biggest pedants!

David Oldfield

31/08/12 – 07:25

Contrary to what I stated above, it seems that the section devoted to LWY702 actually appears under all the headings I mentioned – I hadn’t realised that many of the headings lead to multiple pages. It does not help, of course, that my search engine (google) only picks up words and phrases which are contained in the first of those multiple pages – not the second and subsequent.

David Call

11/05/14 – 11:14

On the Pennine (operator) pages, Chris Wright and Orla Nutting comment on the forthcoming closure of the company.
There has been some confusion about MTD 235. Some sources say she’s at Barnoldswick (spoken locally as Barlick) and some (including me, based on reports I’ve had) say she’s at Skipton. To a degree, both are right and both are wrong! On withdrawal, she spent MANY years gathering dust at Barnoldswick garage. About 2 years ago, she was moved to head office with a view to start of restoration. The inspection was duly undertaken and it was found to be [I quote] ‘a massive job’ which would divert too many staff hours, so she’s back at Barnoldswick, apparently with one of the Leopards new to Ezra Laycock.
I suspect that a number of readers will be concerned about the future of MTD maybe she should could go either to the Leyland Museum or to the one in St Helens if the family don’t keep her.

Pete Davies

12/05/14 – 08:37

The ex-Laycock Leyland Leopard reputedly stored at Barnoldswick depot can only be OWY 197K, since that was the only Leopard ever owned by Laycock’s.
An interesting point is that throughout the few months of its time with Laycock’s, and into Pennine ownership, it carried the incorrect registration OWY 179K.

David Call

13/05/14 – 06:34

Thank you, David, for your comments about the Leopard. In the Donald Binns book about Pennine, there are two photographs showing her with OWY 197K, but the listings in the book show both registrations! She is shown in the book as being stored at Ingleton, but that is clearly out of date if my information from company staff the other day is correct.

Pete Davies

23/05/14 – 07:51

Pete. I paid my respects to Pennine on the last day 16th May I Actually wrote to Maurice Simpson wishing him well for the future and how sad it was Pennine Motors was closing down. I suggested MTD 235 should be restored in memory of his father and the company and what his plans are for the vehicle.
Work was carried out on the brakes and other bits and pieces the chief engineer tells me, however she is to be towed back to Skipton in the coming weeks but what the future is it is not clear as yet.

Mark Mc Alister

25/05/14 – 10:33

Thanks, Mark, for your update.
Before I retired, I worked in the passenger transport team of Southampton City Council, dealing with the local operators over aspects of their services. The national concession scheme was just coming into use. My managers commented on several occasions that the regulations said that the level of reimbursement must be strictly neutral, in that the operator must be no better off and no worse off through taking part in the scheme.
The reports I have read in various places all suggest that North Yorkshire County Council have a different view.

Pete Davies

26/05/14 – 09:28

The point made by Pete Davies was first specified in the Ridley 1985 Transport Act when each local authority had the power to determine a concessionary fare scheme. This led to wide variations throughout the country, and some authorities, of course, chose not to offer any meaningful scheme at all, which was one of the reasons why the Labour government, in reality, John Prescott, decided to ensure that mandatory schemes were available everywhere from 2001. This was followed up in 2007 by a national scheme for England. The Welsh and Scottish administrations pursued their own policies. This new scheme maintained the requirement that “Travel Concession Authorities are required by law to reimburse bus operators for carrying concessionary passengers, on the principle that the operators are “no better off and no worse off” by taking part in concessionary travel schemes. The aim is not to subsidise bus operators, but to pay for any increased costs that they have incurred”. The legislation goes on to say, “The national bus concession in England is available at any time on a Saturday, Sunday or bank holiday, and from 9.30am to 11pm on any other day. TCAs are able to offer concessionary travel outside these hours on a discretionary basis”. I understand that North Yorkshire allows the passes to be used from 9am until 6am the following morning, which is entirely lawful under the clause stated above.

Roger Cox

26/05/14 – 09:29

The situation in respect of the depot premises is as follows.
Skipton: To let at £40,000 p.a. or might sell
Barnoldswick: Sale agreed
Ingleton: Sale agreed
Settle: For sale (‘Guide price’ £75,000) or might let
As Mark McA says, the future for MTD 235 is not clear – it looks even less clear now. We can only hope that it will be, as suggested by Pete, donated to one of the established museums.

David Call

26/05/14 – 14:01

Quite right, Roger, but it’s the amount of reimbursement that seems to have upset matters in this case.

Pete Davies

21/02/16 – 15:44

Re MTD 235 – can anybody give me an update on this coach’s current condition and location please?

Howard Piltz

21/03/16 – 15:54

It appears to have been offered for sale on Ebay in 2014 but the highest bid, just over £2K, didn’t meet the reserve price. Since then it has been off the radar.

Mike Morton

23/03/16 – 05:42

“Just over £2K”, Mike? That’s just silly, given the nature of the beast. I’d have expected another ‘0’ on the figure . . .

Pete Davies

23/03/16 – 17:10

Pete
That’s the reality of Bus Preservation lots of effort/money but nothing like the financial return of vintage cars.

Roger Burdett

23/03/16 – 17:14

Sadly Pete, the generation of enthusiasts that remember and appreciate this era of classic vehicle are getting on in years and fewer in number, and probably feel that it is a bit late in the day to start getting involved in such a substantial and expensive restoration. The majority of active preservationists nowadays are more into the vehicles of their youth – such as Nationals, Olympians and Metrobuses, and even more recent types than those.
I attended the open day at the Dewsbury Bus Museum the other week and thought I’d sample a few rides on the free bus service into Dewsbury and back. I rode on the superb recently restored West Riding PD2 and then the West Riding PS2 but was surprised to note that though plenty people were photographing them, there were relatively few that chose to ride on them, whereas the Olympians, RELL, Leopard and even the virtually new Arriva Enviro Whateveritis were packed out with excited punters.
Time moves on, and so will we, and I fear for the long term future of many of our favourite classic buses.

John Stringer

24/03/16 – 05:56

Re MTD 235. It did not meet reserve on eBay in 2014 (highest bid £2250) so presumably its still with Simpson (t/s Pennine Coaches) Skipton.

John Wakefield

24/05/16 – 08:58

MTD 235 once again on Ebay.

Dave Philpot

30/05/17 – 06:42

MTD 235 has been sold on in Yorkshire.

Phil Clark

22/11/17 – 07:37

I can report that restoration of ex-Pennine Royal Tiger MTD 235 is continuing with the mechanics receiving a thorough overall and work commencing on the body. It is hoped that it will make a return to the road one day soon, keeping fingers crossed!

Phil Clark

23/11/17 – 07:09

Wonderful news!

Pete Davies

23/11/17 – 07:10

Good news indeed Phil-thanks for the report.

Stuart Emmett

23/09/18 – 06:14

I am currently restoring the ex-Pennine Leyland Royal Tiger MTD 235 – has anyone got a destination blind for this or any Pennine posters or notices or timetables that were displayed in their buses in the 1950s, 1960s or 1970s? I will be pleased of any help or copies of anything that will add to the restoration. Thank you, you can contact me through this website.

Phil Clark

05/11/18 – 13:38

The only blind I have seen also covers 1972, 1983 and 1986 changes and includes the former routes of Laycock, Skipton and the ex Ribble locals and Burnley etc.
1950’s/1960’s when MTD was in main service then the range was small. Therefore would suggest only needs to include Malham, Tosside, Morecambe, Lancaster, Ingleton, Gargrave, Settle, Skipton, and Contract.
On further materials-assume, you already will have the Donald Binns 2000 book called Pennine Motor Services that includes many timetables.
Hope this helps and that your worthwhile project continues on. Any ideas when it might be completed?

Stuart Emmett

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

18/11/18 – 09:26

I’m trying to locate the Leyland Royal Tiger MTD 235 mentioned in your website. My dad is a retired bus driver and it’s his favourite bus. I’m trying to arrange just to see it really.

Steven Davies

27/01/19 – 07:41

Thanks for your info on MTD 235 destination names that will be useful, at the moment it has no blind gear as this must have been removed some time ago, so I am trying to find replacement blind gear (if anyone has some!). I haven’t found that book on Pennine but I hope I’ll find it some day. I have found some old Pennine excursion flyers which I hope to make use of. Restoration continues albeit slowly as I’m finding much of the rear end wood frame has decayed or is missing and this is not my favourite job! I am part way through rewiring the coach as much of the original is in a very poor state. I think it will be a while yet before it is finished, but if anyone has any memorabilia, old Pennine notices, posters or unpublished photographs I will be pleased to know!

Phillip Clark

28/01/19 – 07:39

Pennine book available right now suggest be quick www.abebooks.co.uk/

Stuart Emmett

29/07/22 – 05:56

Hello Phillip – wondering how the preservation of MTD 235 is progressing please.

Stuart Emmett

Belle Vue Coaches – Leyland Royal Tiger – LOE 300


Copyright Pete Davies

Belle Vue Coaches
1951
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15
Duple Roadmaster ????

As most people visiting this site will know, Dinky made far more examples of the model Duple Roadmaster than Duple ever managed to make of the real thing. Most of the real ones went to Standerwick and, so far as I am aware, there are no survivors from that batch. There area few others about, however, and I captured this one, LOE 300 on Royal Tiger PSU1/15 chassis, during the Fleetwood Tram Sunday event on 15 July. The PSV Circle volume on preserved buses shows her to have started life in 1951 with Jackson of Castle Bromwich. She’s now in the care of Walsh (Belle Vue Coaches) in the Manchester area and may or may not show RSK 615 as the registration. “Not” in this view! I’m sure someone out there can answer this, but I’ve only ever seen the Roadmaster on a Royal Tiger chassis. Were they ever fitted to other makes?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

21/08/12 – 16:29

RSK 615 isn’t assigned to any vehicle at present.

Roger Broughton

21/08/12 – 16:30

To clarify the note above, she shows Belle Vue Coaches on the back panel, but PSVC shows her as with Walsh.

Pete Davies

21/08/12 – 16:31

KWO 37 Guy Arab UF  – on this site, Pete.

David Oldfield

21/08/12 – 20:31

David, Thank you for that. I can see some resemblance, but my experience of the body design – Standerwick and Dinky Toys, of course, plus this one – shows several differences. Is it, perhaps, a Mk1 and a Mk2, or other modification, in the way the Seagulls had variations and “Mk” numbers during their production?

Pete Davies

21/08/12 – 20:32

SK is a Caithness (Inverness) registration mark, so if that’s the original number, could it have started life with the SMT group ‘Highland Scottish’ as it later became?

Ronnie Hoye

21/08/12 – 20:33

I saw this lovely machine at the Leyland event, but how much nicer would it look if repainted into the dark blue with a red roof livery it wore while with its main owner, South Notts of Gotham, who bought it from Jackson at a fairly early stage in its working career? Did any other Roadmasters survive to the present day?

Neville Mercer

21/08/12 – 20:34

Two of these coaches survive. The other is MAL 310, a South Notts PSU1/11 new in 1951. South Notts also owned LOE 300 for a time.

Philip Lamb

22/08/12 – 06:10

Livery makes such a difference, Pete – as does the fact that the Guy is photographed in black and white and the Leyland is, literally, in glorious colour. Lighter shades tend to flatter – which is no doubt why large operators of this era used “reverse” livery for coaches.

David Oldfield

22/08/12 – 06:11

The registration number RSK 615 is almost certainly an age related DVLA allocation thus inferring that the LOE 300 registration has or may have been lost at some stage. If it is being driven wearing LOE 300 then hopefully the number has been regained replacing the age related one.

Richard Leaman

22/08/12 – 06:11

I wonder how many of these Jackson of Castle Bromwich had, because South Notts purchased two of them, LOE 300 and LOE 900, both in 1957. As Neville says, South Notts were the main operator, having obtained around thirteen years service out of them. Together with their own MAL 310 purchased new and MRR 974 with Leyland bus body, it was quite an impressive fleet of Royal Tigers for a small independent!

Chris Barker

22/08/12 – 10:23

Pete. If you scrutinise the two photographs carefully for differences:
(i) Livery (ii) Mouldings (iii) Position of emergency door (central on Guy) partly causing (iv) different windows (pairs on Leyland put two singles in middle of Guy) Drop ventilators on Guy and Hoppers on Leyland.
Mouldings include front panel on Leyland for spare wheel.
Question for everyone. Hoppers? How common was this in 1950.
Still the same body, though. Similar difference could be seen on other bodies, including later Duples – in particular between bodies on different chassis.

David Oldfield

22/08/12 – 11:08

Thank you, David.

Pete Davies

22/08/12 – 14:47

As Chris B says, LOE300 spent approx 13 years with South Notts; it then passed to the British Legion (later Royal British Legion) at Gotham who kept it for many more years.

LOE 300_lr_2

My photo shows it on Queens Drive, Nottingham in 1988/9, towards the end of its time with them.
How nice to see it preserved and active again.

Bob Gell

23/08/12 – 07:13

Good bit of parking or pioneering low-step access for the old lads?! More seriously, I thought the (unavoidably) off-centre Leyland badge had been added as a restoration trimming, but apparently not.

Joe

23/08/12 – 07:14

Now that’s a classy livery, well suited to the beading. Presumably this was is South Notts colours?

Paul Haywood

23/08/12 – 07:15

Another unique point about the South Notts trio of Roadmasters is that the one they bought new, MAL 310 was 7ft 6in wide, whereas these two were 8ft wide.

Chris Barker

23/08/12 – 10:48

Regarding MAL 310 being a 7ft 6in wide vehicle (and a bus rather than a coach) – this probably has to do with the routes it was planned for. I don’t ever remember seeing single deckers on the Nottingham – Gotham – Loughborough main line service. Single deckers operated the Nottingham – Kegworth village service with quite a few narrow roads and tight bends. Most were short workings to Barton in Fabis or Thrumpton, and the others included or omitted West Leake and/or Kingston on Soar according to market day, the state of the moon, and whether there was an R in the month – a typical rural bus service of the 50s. From memory, I think it was previously run with conductor operated half-cabs.

Stephen Ford

23/08/12 – 10:48

There’s a nice colour shot of LOE 300 in South Notts livery in Malcolm Keeley’s excellent book “Midland Red Days”. I didn’t know about it’s time with the British Legion, so thanks for that photograph – she looks rather nice in blue and yellow!
Also thanks to Philip Lamb for reminding me that MAL still exists. My personal favourite livery on this type was that of Bamber Bridge MS who had two of them in red and black, one a narrow 7 ft 6 in, the other an 8ft wide version. It’s about time a diecast manufacturer tackled this one again – it’s been a long time since the 1/72 scale Dinky Toy and there are lots of good liveries available even though it was a comparatively rare prototype.

Neville Mercer

23/08/12 – 14:19

Some interesting thoughts from Stephen. There was an oddity reported on the BBC news channel several weeks ago about a market day service in the Milton Keynes area. It operates only on the FIFTH Tuesday in the month, so maybe three or four times a year. Why, the reporter was asking, not EVERY Tuesday?
In the Nottingham and Gotham area, I’d be surprised if the mischief makers among the local bus fans did not spend time amending the signs to BARTON IS FAB . . . And Thrumpton, that’s where the fire brigade in the children’s television show was based, wasn’t it?

Pete Davies

24/08/12 – 08:15

There’s also a train that goes only one way (I believe from Stockport to Stalybridge) and doesn’t return. I think that is only when there’s a Q in the month as well!

David Oldfield

24/08/12 – 08:15

Alan Townsin’s Duple book confirms that the Guy had a later version of the Roadmaster body than LOE 300, after what he calls “some tidying up”. The hopper windows were standard on the early models, later reverting to the more usual full-drop type seen on the Guy. Red & White Group were the biggest Roadmaster customer, the parent company taking 1 Leyland and 14 Guys, with a further 7 Guys for the United Welsh fleet.

Peter Williamson

24/08/12 – 08:32

South Notts own Royal Tiger/Duple Roadmaster (fleet number 42, MAL 310) had 45 seats. This was one more than the Royal Tiger with the Leyland bus body (fleet number 45, MRR 974) that seated 44 due to the emergency exit being in the rear wall of the body. The Royal Tiger badge was fixed in the centre of the front panels on 42, rather than offset to the nearside as with 63 (LOE 900) and 64 (LOE 300). Numbers 63 & 64 both seated 41 passengers. Sorry, Neville – South Notts painted the roof maroon on their buses.

Michael Elliott

24/08/12 – 12:29

Michael, I lived in Nottingham for several years and can assure you that South Notts COACHES used to have a red roof. You’re thinking of their double-decker buses which did indeed carry maroon as their top colour. The red roof on coaches seems to have been abandoned on new vehicles or repaints after about 1960, but the maroon roof on ‘deckers continued until the time of the NCT take-over.

Neville Mercer

25/08/12 – 07:26

Thanks Neville for your info on South Notts coach livery pre circa 1960. I’m a ‘native’ of Nottingham and we moved to Clifton in 1953 (when I was three) so over the years I’ve been very familiar with South Notts buses.
Certainly South Notts double deckers had maroon tops and wings and initially also had cream lower deck window surrounds but, from my memory, this was soon dropped and blue window surrounds with a cream cant rail and waist rail (depending on whether the vehicle concerned had a waist rail) adopted instead.
My memories of South Notts single deck buses (principally the Royal Tiger bus, known as ‘the coffin’) is that these had maroon tops also. I have to say that these are memories from age nine/ten when I started to take a ‘more informed view’ on buses. On the question of the ‘Roadmasters’ my memories are of them with maroon tops, as are my memories of the Bedford OBs and the Leyland PS1/Duple ‘A’ type, which latterly became a snow plough. Later coaches, such as the Bedford SBs and VAMs had a livery incorporating two shades of blue.
By the way keep up the good work with the ‘Independents’ series of books. I look forward to treating myself to a copy of the North Wales volume.

Michael Elliott

25/08/12 – 10:56

Thanks for the kind words, Michael. On the South Notts front you’ve made me doubt myself enough to look through a few picture books to check the coach livery. As well as the previously mentioned shot of LOE 300 in Malcolm Keeley’s book (definitely a bright red top!) I’ve also found two shots of South Notts OB/Duple Vistas with the red roof. It’s a pity that they didn’t continue with this livery variation into the 1960s/70s – by the time I lived in Nottingham the coaches were all-over blue which did them no favours.

Neville Mercer

26/08/12 – 07:40

During 1934 both Barton and South Notts, as associated companies, introduced maroon roofs wings to all their vehicles as a form of corporate identity. Barton having held a 50% share in South Notts since 1929. Maroon was replaced by a light shade of blue on single deckers during 1961 and with the repainting of 117 in 1986 to celebrate 60 years of operation the maroon was dropped, but retaining indigo and cream as the original livery. This was so well received it was decided to standardize this on their double deckers and several were so treated.
Royal Tiger No.42 MAL 310 was a dual purpose vehicle, not a bus and was used on private hire and often hired to Barton for their express services. The two ex Jackson Royal Tigers in fact stood in Barton’s Chilwell garage yard for several months and at least one (No.64 LOE 300) ran in service with South Notts in Jackson’s green/grey livery.

Alan Oxley

11/10/12 – 07:22

I was surprised to read in Neville Mercer’s post (above) that of the two Roadmasters with Bamber Bridge Motor Service one was 7’6″ wide and the other 8′, since they were both from the same batch (of three?) new to Scout Motor Services, and it has always been my understanding that the entire batch were 7’6″. Any more bids?

David Call

17/01/15 – 06:17

This bus is part of our vintage collection at BelleVue Manchester Ltd.
Any questions you may have I can forward on to The Walsh Bros.
Kenny Walsh is the maintenance Director at BelleVue and he is one half of the Walsh Bros who perform restorations on a variety of classics.

Donna Thompson

01/06/15 – 07:22

The South Notts Worldmasters had maroon tops. I went on one to Dudley Zoo on a school trip – my first solo outing. It was similar to Barton’s maroon as there had always been connections between the two companies. They often did the Saturday services to Gotham and Thrumpton etc from Huntingdon St bus station as well as private hire and duplicates. P54 Malcolm Keeley – Midland Red Days does indeed show LOE 300 with a maroon roof exactly the same as the two South Notts Leyland buses behind. This is probably a Saturday with the Leyland PDs doing a short working to Gotham and the regular service to Loughborough (18-30 departures?). The Thrumpton bus would turn off before Gotham and was usually lightly loaded. Alan Oxley’s South Notts book (1985) is one of my cherished possessions and I would highly recommend it if you can get hold of a copy.
Oxford Diecast models intend to make a 1/76th scale model of a Worldmaster in Belle Vue Coaches livery-this one? More details will emerge.

David O’Brien

02/06/15 – 07:06

David, hate to be pedantic but these are Duple ROADmasters, not Worldmasters. Worldmaster was a brand-name used by Leyland for export versions of their Royal Tiger chassis. Also, while I accept that most South Notts vehicles had maroon roof trim, nobody has addressed the issue of bright red being shown in various published photographs detailed above. I’m aware of the “false colour” which many early types of slide film produced (as is anybody who has bought a book about Ribble!) but the examples given are beyond that. If the colours in the photo’s mentioned are wrong then I suspect that they were altered during production of the books in question. Anybody got any thoughts?

Neville Mercer

03/06/15 – 06:21

That is a valid point, Neville. Not only did different makes of colour film, slide and negative, give greatly varying results, often exacerbated by sloppy laboratory processing, but we now exist in an age of Photoshop and similar computer programs that allow image modification to a degree way beyond the old darkroom techniques. I confess to using the modern methods to get a reasonable result from my elderly slides, and I very much doubt if most published pictures are truly accurate in colour rendition. One does try to get it right, but, perhaps, our increasingly high mileage memories are probably not the best judges of the original liveries. One would really need a paint chart to match the most important colours of the original scheme for a true result.

Roger Cox

03/06/15 – 06:22

To answer my own query (11/10/12) it would appear that the three Scout Roadmasters were a mixture of 7’6″ and 8’0″. BLOTW has DRN 355 as 7’6″ and DRN 356/7 as 8’0″, but the Peter Gould fleetlist gives DRN 357 as 7’6″. All the available evidence indicates that the Peter Gould version is correct, if this is the case then the two which went to BBMS were indeed one of each width.
In respect of three Leyland-bodied PD2s new to Scout at much the same time (DRN 364-6), Peter Gould has the first two as 8’0″ wide and the third as 7’6″. BLOTW gives them all as 8’0″, but given the mixture of Roadmaster widths I suppose it’s quite possible that the PD2s were mixed width also.

David Call

28/10/15 – 07:13

Yes, colour films of the era each had their own characteristics: principally, Kodachrome (perhaps the most widely-used colour films at the time) produced vivid representations of reds. Other films were more subdued (and perhaps more realistic). Maroon appearing as bright red: I can believe it!

Allen

28/03/16 – 17:16

“SK” was indeed a Caithness CC registration originally, but with so few registrations issued by this authority, registration marks BSK to YSK were allocated by DVLA to various VROs throughout UK for “age-related” re-registrations between 3/90 and 3/92.

Andy

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

23/08/20 – 05:26

LOE 300 was sold in 11/18 to James Baile of Nassington. His mother runs a wedding and conference venue Prebendal Manor, Nassington, pics of it appear on their FB page, it was being used as an office in April this year! https://www.facebook.com/  so not sure what his plans are for it. It won’t do it much good if left outside!

John Wakefield

Mexborough & Swinton – Leyland Royal Tiger – OUF 834 – 103


Copyright John Stringer

Mexborough & Swinton Traction Co Ltd
1954
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/11
Harrington Wayfarer  C26C

Mexborough & Swinton acquired a number of former Southdown vehicles during the 1960’s, including this Royal Tiger with Harrington Wayfarer coachwork.  New to Southdown in 1954 as its 834, it was one of a batch (830-834) of five Royal Tigers with Harrington Wayfarer C26C coachwork.  However, whereas 830-833 were 8ft wide PSU1/15 models, 834 was a one-off 7ft 6in wide PSU1/11 model. Renumbered 1834 around 1960 it was used principally on the Brighton to Heysham part of their Irish tours.  It was acquired by M&STC in 1965, and withdrawn by them shortly after this photo was taken in 1968.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

03/02/13 – 13:22

C26C leaps out as being rather odd, but the copy reveals why the batch was seated thus. Any ideas, please, as to why this one was only 7ft 6in, when the other four were to the usual 8ft? Could it, perhaps, have been because of the need to visit parts of Ireland where a standard 8ft vehicle could have problems – but the copy mentions only the Brighton to Heysham portion of the tour, as if an operator from across the Irish Sea dealt with the rest. Interesting!!!

Pete Davies

03/02/13 – 13:24

Thanks John for the excellent picture. 1832 and 1833 were also 7′ 6” PSU1/11’s and were used for the Irish leg of these tours by UTA until return to Southdown in 1963. They were subsequently painted in the Blue and Cream livery of Bucks Coaches of Worthing, who had just been taken over by Southdown. These vehicles replaced a pair of Bedford OB’s inherited from Bucks. 1832 and 1833 were withdrawn by Southdown in late 1966.

Roy Nicholson

03/02/13 – 14:21

It is interesting to note that 1832 and 1833 were sold to UTA in order to run the Southdown “coach cruises”, never tours, that ran in Northern Ireland. Regulations in the province permitted only UTA to run PSVs. They were transferred at book value, with the agreement that they would be bought back when no longer required.
At least Wallace Arnold and Barton had the same arrangement.

Pat Jennings

Gore’s of Southport – Leyland Royal Tiger – GWM 981


Copyright John Stringer

Gore’s of Southport
1951
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15
Burlingham Seagull C37C new – C41C ??/??

Gore’s Coaches was the trading name of the Southport & Birkdale Motor and Carriage Co. Ltd. of Southport.
I was quite taken aback to come across this late survivor of the Royal Tiger/Burlingham Seagull marque in such fine fettle outside Liverpool Lime Street Railway Station, whilst on an enthusiasts’ visit to Birkenhead and Wallasey on 13th June 1971. This one deserved to have survived into preservation – I wonder what became of it ?

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

17/02/13 – 07:34

Super picture and beautiful vehicle – doesn’t look twenty years old, more like twenty months.

David Oldfield

17/02/13 – 13:31

Very nice, John! Thanks for posting. Reading Corporation (I see you don’t list any from that fleet yet, Peter) had assorted single deckers, even into the RE era, with the Burlingham trademark on the front. Flattery gets you everywhere!

Pete Davies

17/02/13 – 17:31

Any Burlingham will do for me – apart from the hideous flying pig (c1959) on Bedford/Ford chassis!

David Oldfield

18/02/13 – 11:00

It would be a hard job to make one of these look bad, but no doubt some of todays ‘Corporate Image Experts’ would have a good try.

Ronnie Hoye

18/02/13 – 12:08

Yes Ronnie, but imagine one in National white – that would be bad enough!

David Oldfield

18/02/13 – 12:11

Pete D: There are a selection of Reading views in Roger Cox’s gallery Reading Corporation Transport

Alan Murray-Rust

18/02/13 – 16:24

Thank you, Alan, but Roger’s views (good as they are) don’t appear in the column to the left, so a newcomer to the site may not know there are any of this operator without a closer study. I’ve found a few to submit for consideration and will fire them off to our Editor in the course of the next few weeks.

Pete Davies

19/02/13 – 15:23

Very true, David, the National all white reminded me of the factory finish commercial vehicles were delivered in prior to painting. It’s not so much all one colour that’s the problem, choice of colour could make all the difference on what were very similar vehicles. Take a Plaxton body for example, National all white? drab and anonymous, Glenton on the other hand were quietly restrained and dignified.

Ronnie Hoye

19/02/13 – 15:23

PSVC gives this coach as withdrawn by Gore’s in 11/72, with no further owner recorded. Evidently reseated to C41C at some time prior to this photo, but recorded as C37C, as given above, when new.

David Williamson

22/09/14 – 14:37

I am not a bus or coach driver, just a casual visitor to this site, but it occurred to me that there is a serious front overhang on the coach above. Did it not make it difficult to drive? I once drove a 3 ton truck on a one off 20 mile trip. That gave me the sensation of being slightly drunk. I would have thought that you would have felt completely plastered, driving the above!

Martin Robinson

28/10/14 – 16:52

There is a Burlingham Seagull advertised on eBay at the moment. //www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201202508209?clk_rvr_id=721251652239
I don’t know how accurate the listing is.
It says 1958 Bedford SB8 Classic Vintage Coach yet further down it says it has a Leyland 350 engine.
Did they put Leyland engines in the Bedford chassis?

John Lomas

29/10/14 – 06:59

They did fit Leyland engines, John, but I doubt the Leyland 0.350 is original. I don’t think the SB13 (with 0.350) was available in 1958 – more likely an SB8 (with 0.330). The 0.350 was probably a retrofit. 1958 was actually very close to the end of SBO and introduction of SB5 and SB8. I’m not expert enough in this part of Bedford’s history to be sure of dates – I only know the specifications. The SBG morphed into the classic SB3 (300 Bedford petrol), the SBO became the SB5 (330 Bedford diesel) and the SB8 (0.330 Leyland diesel) was an addition to the range. I believe the SB13 (0.350 Leyland diesel) eventually replaced the SB8 but everything was outlasted by the SB5 which continued (albeit with a new, indecipherable code) until the bitter end in 1985.

David Oldfield

29/10/14 – 06:59

Yes, Bedford SB8 and SB13 models had Leyland engines.

David Hick

29/10/14 – 15:56

Forgot to mention the rare SB1 with 300 Bedford diesel engine.

David Oldfield

29/10/14 – 15:56

The Bedford dealer, Arlington, had begun offering conversions of the ‘Big Bedford’ S-type goods chassis with the Leyland O350 (5.76 litre) engine from as early as 1952. Bedford themselves began to offer a Perkins R6 (5.56 litre) diesel option in both that model and the SBO coach chassis from 1953. In 1957 Bedford introduced their own 330 (4.92 litre) diesel engine to replace the troublesome R6, resulting in the SB1. At the same time they began to offer the Leyland O350 officially as an option, resulting in the SB8. In 1961 they replaced their own 300 diesel with the increased capacity 330 (5.42 litres), resulting in the SB5. By 1962 Leyland had replaced the O350 and its larger bore equivalent the O375 (not used by Bedford) with the revised O370 (6.05 litre) and O400 (6.54 litre) units respectively. The O370 went into the SB as the SB13, and the O400 into the twin-steer VAL, and later the VAM as well as various goods models.

John Stringer

29/10/14 – 17:04

….. and of course Leyland then produced their own version of the SB13 – the Albion Victor VT41L, with the O.370. Those who ran them held them in high regard but, like many models, they were a little late on the market and only lasted about three seasons before the VAM/R192 style lightweights took over from the traditional SB style motor for independents.

David Oldfield

05/08/18 – 07:45

I have just come across the messages sent four years ago concerning Bedford coaches fitted with a Leyland engine & I would just like to vouch how good that combination was.
When Bedford deleted the option to specify a Leyland power unit in 1967/8 ie the Leyland O400 in the four wheeler VAM14 & “Chinese Six” VAL14 in favour of their own 466 engine to me it was a retrogressive step. The Bedford 466 engine was originally developed for the introduction of the KM lorry in 1966. The 466 was not a bad engine, but not a patch on a Leyland unit especially VALs. With this disservice by Bedfords a good number of coach firms move onto the Leyland (& indeed Perkins) powered Bristol LH & its longer brother, the LHL.

Andrew Spriggs

07/08/18 – 06:03

Andrew. I think most people – and certainly most operators – agree that the VAL14 and VAM14, because of their 0.400 engines, were better than the VAL70 and VAM70, with the Bedford 466. The Ford R series began to catch up with Bedfords and, possibly overtake them (literally) from this time on. Bedford’s heyday was really from the OB through to the SB3.

David Oldfield

09/08/18 – 07:18

Yes I agree with you David, as the Ford R series really gave Bedford a run for their money especially with the turbo engine & six speed gearbox on Fords. In the later years of Glenway Coaches, Fords served the company well,drivers only complaints were the turbo would cut out for no reason & a sloppy gearbox (having to fish for gears). Fords would fly along on the flat on the motorway, get to a gradient & then old AEC Reliances would fly past in the middle lane leaving the modern Ford standing.
Going back to the original thread of Leyland Royal Tigers (bit before my time), the only one I recall was a 1952 model that had been rebodied in the mid 60s with a Plaxton Panorama body, my friend drove that one, he liked it apart from heavy steering & not too good brakes.

Andrew Spriggs

Warwickshire Miners – Leyland Royal Tiger – GJT 29

Warwickshire Miners - Leyland Royal Tiger - GJT 29


Copyright Pete Davies

Warwickshire Miners
1953
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/16
Leyland C41C

Here are two views of GJT 29 for your perusal. She is a Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/16, with Leyland’s own C41C bodywork, and is seen at the Southsea rally on 17 June 1984. The odd feature about her is that she was never a PSV. She was built in 1953 (according to the PSVC listing) as a staff bus for a mining and/or quarrying firm in the Purbeck area of Dorset. PSVC lists the original owners as Warwickshire Miners and I’m supposing that the Dorset operation was a subsidiary. She was in use with a Scout group in the area at the time of the photographs.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

22/03/13 – 08:03

The Purbeck area of Dorset there is an Oil field still producing a lot of oil, so it is probably that site in which GJT 29 transported the staff.

David J Henighan

22/03/13 – 16:37

The mining industry had various convalescent homes around the country which were regionalised (S. Wales, Yorkshire, Warwickshire) and the latter had a home in Swanage (Durlston Court). This one was called the Warwickshire Miners’ Convalescent Home, which is the full title of the owner of the coach. I wonder if the coach had been pensioned off by then, but bought/passed on for the nearby oilfield’s employees.

Chris Hebbron

22/03/13 – 16:37

I believe the Royal Tiger was used by the Warwickshire Miners’ Convalescent Home (Durlston Court, Park Road, Swanage) to transport its patients.

John Stringer

22/03/13 – 16:38

Here she is in preservation. www.flickr.com/one  According to Preserved Buses (2006 Edition), she was owned by Massingham of Slough but that may have changed by now of course.

John Darwent

22/03/13 – 16:39

There is a Warwickshire Miners Convalescent Home in Swanage. I believe that it has since been demolished. This maybe the reason for the Dorset registration.
Also see the following picture on flickr: www.flickr.com/photos/two

Stephen Bloomfield

23/03/13 – 07:51

John…
Would you know where to look or search for if GJT 29 is still with us…
I’ve tried the usual Googling and nothing other than links back to this site and flickr…
These vehicles are one of my all time favourites but I haven’t seen one in the flesh for maybe 50 years now…We had a thread sometime during last year and I was asking if it would be possible to find one during our annual visit back to the UK and (I think it was) Neville Mercer, but apologies if I’m wrong there, suggested that there may only be two of these beauties left – one at the Scottish Bus Museum in Fife and another, perhaps, somewhere in Yorkshire…
If this one was in a preserved condition as recently as 2006, maybe it’s still in ownership somewhere and I’d love to be able to see it during this year’s visit…

Stuart C

23/03/13 – 09:02

Stuart, GJT is listed in the PSVC edition for 2012 as being with Massingham, Slough. I’ve no idea what condition she’s in!

Pete Davies

24/03/13 – 15:06

. . . and I forgot! Pennine still have the former demonstrator, MTD 235. My sources tell me she’s stored in the garage in Skipton (the former Ribble place in Broughton Road) but others say she’s at Barnoldswick. The Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust used to have one, possibly two, but their website didn’t mention them when I looked last.

Pete Davies

26/03/13 – 06:35

Many quality vehicles ended their working lives as workmens or staff buses, but not many would have started that way. You would expect a new vehicle to have been from the lightweight end of the market rather than a Royal Tiger.

Ronnie Hoye

26/03/13 – 08:59

To be fair, Ronnie, it’s not clear that it did start as a workmen’s bus. But you make a good point that, even if the vehicle had been acquired by the convalescent home for patient use, why was it such a heavyweight? It’s all shrouded in mystery, as ever!

Chris Hebbron

26/03/13 – 16:10

Thanks very much….If I track down GJT later this year, then I’ll update everyone….Fingers crossed she’s still in one piece !

Stuart C

27/03/13 – 06:40

The various “Unions of Mineworkers” – Warwickshire, Durham, Kent etc (the National Union of Mineworkers [NUM] was a federation of the regional unions/areas) each had their own convalescent homes for sick/retired mineworkers. A coach would be required to transport residents around the local area, and also to ferry residents between the home and place of residence: I would assume that the coach would spend most of its time on “local” work around the home, with regular – but less frequent – trips to collect/return patients to the place of residence, so perhaps it made sense to register the coach in the area where it would spend most of its time (Dorset) rather than Warwickshire. I’m sure a lightweight could have done the job, but a heavyweight would have done it better and would make a “statement”: don’t forget that until the mid-1980s the NUM areas were very wealthy bodies – a new heavyweight would make a powerful statement of “who we are” and “how we care for our members”, both to those inside and outside the organisation.

Philip Rushworth

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

30/10/13 – 07:03

Ribble 377 the all Leyland Royal Tiger PSU/13 ERN 700 is with the Ribble preservation group and restoration is on going, though it is a 44 seat Bus variant.

Cyril Aston

Hunters – Leyland Royal Tiger – EJR 791

Hunters - Leyland Royal Tiger - EJR 791

H W Hunter and Sons
1952
Leyland Royal Tiger
Plaxton C43F (1966)

Hunter’s were a family run business who went for quality rather than quantity. They bought well in the first place, and as we’ve seen before on this site, their vehicles were well looked after and meticulously maintained. ZV 2428 is probably an age related registration that was issued when the original was transferred to someone’s car. That number is on a vehicle that is part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection. The vehicle in question belonged to H W Hunter and Sons, and is a Leyland Royal Tiger that they bought new in 1952, it came to them as a Burlingham Seagull, and being 1952, I presume it would have been a centre entrance. In 1966, they had it rebodied by Plaxton as a C43F. This vehicle, EJR 791, has an identical history, so the question is, is this in fact the same vehicle, or was it one of a pair?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

30/06/13 – 09:42

Ronnie, nice view!
I remember some vehicles in what was then the Les Gleave Group being lengthened and rebodied in the 1960s. Roman City in Bath did the same trick – using Harrington – on at least one Royal Tiger they bought from Ribble. EJR 791, according to the PSVC preserved bus listing for 2012 is indeed ZV2428, at that time with Universal, Portlaoise.

Pete Davies

I thought ZV and similar registrations are what are popularly known as “Paddy Plates” (I claim Irish blood and am allowed to say this) -Irish registrations with the great advantage of not revealing the (venerable?) age of the coach. These seem/seemed popular with small operators who used them as “personalised” plates.

Joe

01/07/13 – 07:18

The ZV2428 Number probably means that this coach spent some time in Ireland. The ZV plate is used here for imported vehicles that come under a “vintage” registration class which covers vehicles over 30 years old.

David Jones

01/07/13 – 07:35

2048 LG

Mention of the Les Gleave Group lengthening and rebodying a number of Leyland Royal Tigers brought to mind this photo of one of these coaches taken in Eastbourne in the mid sixties registered 2048 LG the body style indicates the work was carried out around 1961/62.
There is a photo of an identical coach at that time belonging to Campings of Brighton registered 501 WLG taken at the 1964 Brighton Coach Rally posted on the SCT 61 Photo Gallery section covering Plaxtons.

Diesel Dave

01/07/13 – 10:50

Only Northern Ireland plates can be used in Britain in the way Joe describes.
ZV is used in the Irish Republic, as David suggests, when registering a vehicle older than 30 years.

Geoff Kerr

02/07/13 – 07:35

It is the same vehicle. EJR 701 is a Leyland PSU1/15 which was new to Hunter’s in March 1952 as their no 19; it had a Burlingham C41C body. In January 1966 it was rebodied by Plaxton to C43F and renumbered 27. In June 1977 it was acquired by OK Motor Services. In January 1984 it was transferred to Lockey’s which had itself been acquired by OKMS in October 1983 and was functioning at the time as an OK subsidiary; EJR carried the ‘Lockeys Burn Line’ fleetname, but OKMS livery. In August 1985 it, together with the rest of Lockey’s extant fleet, returned to OKMS with whom it remained until June 1987.

Alan Hall

06/07/13 – 16:02

I like the zero-(or possibly negative-)offset front wheels on the lengthened Royal Tiger from Diesel Dave, which give the bus a real heavy-vehicle look. One reason that I dislike wheel-trims (especially those ghastly wobbling chrome things) is that they obliterate much of a vehicle’s identity and character, and can add difficulty to a historian’s job. Thankfully, no such nonsense with 2048 LG!

Ian Thompson

28/04/15 – 07:02

This vehicle (if it is the same one) now carries registration RCI 541 (a traditional Laois plate) and is still with Universal, Portlaoise (John O’Brien). https://www.flickr.com/photos/midlanddeltic/17225777661/
I have found a couple of pics showing it carrying ZV2428 which, as suggested above, is a “heritage” plate for imported / re-registered vehicles. //victoryguy.smugmug.com/keyword/ZV2428;zv2428/

Sean Marshall

13/11/21 – 06:09

Pete Davies: In your post of 30/06/13 you have implied that Roman City had an ex-Ribble Royal Tiger lengthened and rebodied by Harrington. The only Roman City vehicle I know to have been rebodied by Harrington was FRN 982, a Tiger Cub, not Royal Tiger, ex-Scout, rather than Ribble, and it retained its original length (more or less).
The ‘Wikipedia’ page on Harrington refers to the vehicle as being ex-Ribble, so that may be where you got the Ribble connection.

David Call

Berresford Motors – Leyland Royal Tiger – HWV 793

Berresford Motors - Leyland Royal Tiger - HWV 793

Berresford Motors Ltd (Cheddleton)
1952
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15
Harrington Contender C41C (1956)

Berresford’s ex Wilts and Dorset (originally Silver Star, Porton Down) Royal Tiger rounds the perimeter road of Longton Bus Station on 20th June 1971. This coach was new to Silver Star in July 1952 with a Leyland C41C body as built in large numbers for Ribble. It was fitted with the Harrington Contender Mk IV body in July 1956 after a serious accident earlier that year. It passed to Wilts and Dorset in June 1963 when that Company took over Silver Star’s operations. This information is taken from a series of articles on Silver Star in Buses Illustrated from February to April 1965.
Jim Berresford operated a mixed collection of second hand vehicles from his premises at Cheddleton. HWV is showing “Private” on the blind but it could just as well have been operating on Berresford”s Longton – Leek service.
A collection of contemporary PMT buses are in the background. One of the final (1962) batch of Atlanteans of Stoke Depot on a Longton – Newcastle Estates working pursues HWV into the bus station whilst farebox fitted Roadliner 1063 of Longton Depot awaits its next trip to Blurton. Just in view is short Leopard 1124, another Longton allocated bus.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

10/11/13 – 08:02

If I remember rightly, Berresford’s was a bit of a rough and ready operation famous for it’s bus grave yard – old buses were simply dumped, withdrawn, in adjacent fields. They were big Leyland fans and had a number of ex Stockport all Leyland PD2s.

David Oldfield

10/11/13 – 17:33

This Harrington body was a variant of the type seen here on this site:
Maidstone & District – AEC Reliance – TKM 329 – C329 .
The Silver Star version seen above is rendered even uglier than the M&D style, in my opinion, by the grotesque front grilles that seemed to anticipate some of the later aberrations from the Duple stable. Thankfully, Harrington went on to redeem itself with the stylish Cavalier.

Roger Cox

11/11/13 – 08:31

The whole frontal appearance makes the body a potential Ugly Bus Page contender.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/11/13 – 15:32

I’ve seen this vehicle described as a Contender before, but surely it is a Wayfarer III? As far as I know the Contender model was for semi-chassisless vehicles such as the Commer-Harrington TS3s. However, for many years the LDB registered Harrington coaches delivered to North Western in 1958 were described in enthusiast publications as “Contenders” rather than Wayfarer IVs which is what they actually were! In that case the error went unchallenged until the vehicles had already been sold by NWRCC. Do we have any Harrington experts on board who can clarify this?

Neville Mercer

11/11/13 – 15:32

And the coach wears a sad face to express its own thoughts on its appearance, Phil.

Chris Hebbron

11/11/13 – 15:33

The body is a Harrington Wayfarer Mk 3, rather than a Contender, which was Harrington’s integral model fitted normally with a Rootes TS3 two stroke engine, apart from some for BOAC which had Rolls Royce petrol engines. The Wayfarer Mk 3 is described here:- www.thcoachwork.co.uk/way3.htm .

David Williamson

12/11/13 – 16:33

Maidstone & District had a large fleet of centre entrance Wayfarer/Reliances but also 3 similar looking but front entranced Commers, all of which were “TKM” registered.

Malcolm Boyland

13/11/13 – 12:54

You could say that Berresfords was a rough and ready operation but what a fascinating one! I always loved a trip from Leek to Hanley on the 16, or to Longton on the 106 because you really didn’t know what delight from the fleet would turn up next. I remember an ex-St Helens AEC Swift being on the stand in Longton bus station once and the driver couldn’t get reverse gear, all the passengers, some of whom were quite old, dutifully got off and helped to push the bus off the stand! It must be said though that everything Berresfords operated was smartly painted in fleet livery of red and ivory with the fleetname quite professionally applied. They were nearly always fitted with a destination blind of some sort. Such a shame that Jim Berresford’s untimely death brought it all to an end, it was one of those truly characterful operators which are sadly missed.

Chris Barker

10/12/13 – 06:38

Recent contributors may be interested to know that my book, Berresfords Motors of Cheddleton, is due to be published this week by MDS Books/Venture Publishing.

Eric Wain

11/12/13 – 06:30

Yes indeed Eric, I enquired about it at last Saturday’s Transport fair at the Manchester Museum. This is one volume I’m really looking forward to!

Chris Barker

23/12/13 – 08:34

I’ve just finished reading Eric’s book and can heartily recommend it. A decent history of Berresfords has been needed for donkey’s years and Eric has finally come up with the goods – and I would still be saying that even if we didn’t share a publisher!

Neville Mercer

03/03/14 – 07:26

Eric, I have just purchased and read your superb book on Berresfords, an operator that has long fascinated me (and no doubt many other enthusiasts) even though I only visited the depot a couple of times. A couple of points – you don’t mention in the book the large number of vehicles which must have been purchased for spares only, on both my visits a lot of the derelict buses seemed to fall into that category but I doubt there is any record. Amongst others the “West’s” RTL, and on my second visit a Western SMT Fleetline, GMT ex North Western RE and several ex NBC single deckers. My second query is how did Jim decide on withdrawal whether to keep a vehicle round the back for spares, or sell it on either for service or scrap. And whilst many obviously stayed in the yard for years, other derelicts must have been disposed of long before the PMT takeover.

Michael Keeley

20/05/14 – 08:30

Thank you, gentlemen, for your kind comments regarding my book. With regard to the withdrawn vehicles and those purchased for spares, there were two reasons why this aspect could not be covered. Given the large number of vehicles which fell into these categories over the years, it became obvious that other text or photos within the book would have to be forfeited in view of space limitations. Secondly, although there was much information available about many vehicles acquired for spares etc., it was known that the list would certainly be far from complete and it was decided not to produce an incomplete list.
From the early 1950s some vehicles withdrawn from the fleet were cannibalised and the bodies cut up rather than sold on. Some vehicles acquired for spares were treated similarly, whereas others donated useful major units and other parts and then were used for parts storage. One double-decker bought in 1949 actually donated its staircase which was incorporated into the rear of the extension of the office and workshop block! Unfortunately, I did not become aware of this until the book had been published.

Eric Wain

R W Jackson – Leyland Royal Tiger – GVN 952

GVN 952

R W Jackson (Cleveland Coaches), Guisborough
1951
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/15
Strachans C41C

Strachans (Successors) was in a bad way in the early 1950s. Many of the vehicles supplied to operators in the 1946-1949 period had proven less than robust (due to poor quality timber), a fault shared with bodies produced by Santus and many of the smaller coachbuilders of the time. Nevertheless it was obvious that the firm would have to offer bodywork for the new underfloor engined coach chassis, and in 1951 the company produced its first five such bodies, all on Royal Tigers. Four went to Valliant of Ealing as WMT 321-324, and the fifth to Jackson of Guisborough (east of Middlesborough on the inland road to Whitby) as illustrated here. The “Cleveland Coaches” fleetname came from the Cleveland Hills which were there for several million years before Ted Heath invented the county of Cleveland!
It wasn’t a bad design, although one suspects that the front corners owed more than a little to Windover’s “Kingsway” design. No more of this style were built as Strachans introduced their new “Strathrae” design in early 1952, and this was then replaced by the better known “Everest” model in 1954. Does anybody know what happened to GVN 952 after Jackson sold it? And does anybody have a shot of one of the Valliant machines?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Neville Mercer

25/07/14 – 05:48

The reversed flashes round the front wheelarch give this coach a curious pushme-pullyou look! Of course full fronts were a new challenge for most coachbuilders at that time.
At least we know the chassis would have been solid and reliable!

Andrew Goodwin

26/07/14 – 06:45

It’s worse than that, Andrew. Adding to your observation is that the way in which the body flows downwards at the rear as in the front, giving a distinct impression that two fronts have been glued together! It even seems to have an early Morris Minor front grill fitted!
It’s not quite an ‘Ugly Bus’ contender, but close.

Chris Hebbron

26/07/14 – 06:45

The Aldershot & District Dennis Dominant HOU 900 had similarly styled front and rear wings as built in 1950, but, in the course of its career, the “Tracco” removed these strange embellishments in favour of straightforward, simple wheel arches. On the matter of Strachans quality, it cannot have been as bad as some of the ‘mushroom’ bodybuilders of the forties and fifties, as the Dominant lasted for some fifteen years with A&D, and was apparently sold on for further service, though I am not sure where it went.

Roger Cox

26/07/14 – 06:46

It’s a very impressive looking coach but it could have looked so much better with deeper windscreens. It’s strange how so many coachbuilders at the time felt the need for the bottom edge of the screens (on underfloor engined chassis) to curve upwards to the centre and yet others proved it was quite unnecessary. Perhaps it was a carry over from producing full front bodywork on front engined chassis.
The side has a decent line to it, the reversed flashes around the wheelarches do look a bit odd but no doubt another quirk of the time was that the front end had to match the rear. It certainly looks to be of substantial construction but that was nothing to go by as far as Strachans were concerned!

Chris Barker

27/07/14 – 06:50

According to available fleet lists, Jacksons were taken over by Saltburn Motor Services in 1957 and their four vehicles included this one. Saltburn operated it until 1962 but there doesn’t appear to be any further details.

Chris Barker

29/05/19 – 05:33

R. W. Jackson
Were taken over by Saltburn Motor Services in 1957 GVN 952 later passed to Moore & Cartwright a building contractor of Norton -on- Tees, Teeside in September 1964 no trace thereafter.

Alan Coulson

Booth & Fisher – Leyland Royal Tiger – SNU 234


Copyright Unknown

Booth & Fisher
1952
Leyland Royal Tiger
Leyland C41C

The first Leylands bought new (in 1952) by this Derbyshire operator were two Royal Tigers; SNU 234 had this C41C body whereas SNU 235 was B44F. Chassis numbers were 520911 and 520179 respectively. School journeys to Creswell swimming baths were often on this superb vehicle, arriving far too soon for me! About seven Leylands had gone before but all were second-hand, and all buses, so this one was special. The coach only stayed until 1963 and was later with McGregor, a contractor. I’m unsure whether or not it served any other operator in-between. SNU 235 lasted until around 1969 but I have been unable to find any photographs of this one.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

16/02/15 – 06:57

Nice!!! Thanks for posting. I wonder if Oxford Diecast can be persuaded to do a model of this one. I asked a while ago about the possibilities of having one of MTD235, but their reply didn’t leave me very hopeful. Still, the comments from Roger Cox when the Ribble version was issued – wrong shades used – might help them to get further issued right!

Pete Davies

16/02/15 – 06:58

Les, have a look at the posting of Booth and Fisher 612 JPU on this site,
SNU 235 is just visible in the background. I have another slide taken the same day where SNU is in a line of 3 vehicles at the front of the depot

This design of Leyland coach body must have come as quite a shock after many years of coaches with curved waist rails. The later Ribble treatment of the lower front sill enhanced the appearance still further. Note the opening windows, they appear to be of the half(?) drop type and also the semaphore trafficator under the driver’s cab side window. The multi pane windscreen arrangement must have been a recipe for water ingress.

Ian Wild

16/02/15 – 15:47

SNU 234_2

Here is SNU 234 later in life with McGregor, contractor. Not a great shot but still worth seeing. I bought this five decades ago and photo is not back-stamped so I have no idea of copyright etc.

Les Dickinson

19/02/15 – 07:17

I am pretty sure this coach was with Cherrys of Beverly.

Ken Wragg

14/02/18 – 07:49

Yes Ian Wild you are right, the front faceted windows of the Royal Tiger coach do leak quite a bit and always did from new. I am currently restoring MTD 235 the Leyland demonstrator that was in Pennine’s fleet, it has wind-down windows and semaphore indicators below the cab – it is a very well built all-Leyland coach and a credit to the manufacturer. We have got the mechanics overhauled and am presently well on with refurbishing the interior – I hope the coach will be back on the road before too long. If anyone has any Pennine posters, notices, timetables, photographs and the like relevant to MTD 235 I would be pleased to see them to complete its history.

Phil Clark

14/02/18 – 11:23

Cherry of Beverley was the intermediate owner, SNU 234 was with them from 1963 until the sale to McGregor in 1966.

David Hick

15/02/18 – 06:14

Wonderful news, Phil. I hope to see MTD at the Tram Sunday event in the near future!

Pete Davies

15/02/18 – 06:17

Phil,
Many thanks for your update re Pennine MTD 235, after the sad demise of Pennine Motors I and many others wondered what the fate of this special vehicle would be, after it being in store with Pennine for so long. I know it popped up for sale several times and then lost track of it, so well done for taking on the restoration and good luck with it!! Hope all goes well. I eagerly wait to see MTD 235 back on the road ,at the Pennine running day at some point maybe ?

Mark McAlister

21/02/18 – 07:00

It is very gratifying to know that MTD 235 is undergoing restoration & it will make a fitting tribute to Pennine & Leyland Motors (indeed Pennine was a very loyal Leyland customer).
Does anybody know what has happened to the Plaxton Elite bodied Leopard which came to Pennine when still quite new when Ezra Laycock was taken over in 1972?. Pennine had put this on one side for possible preservation.

Andrew Spriggs

09/04/19 – 08:47

Thanks for the memories regarding the run from Sheffield (Eyre Street stop) to Coal Aston. I used that bus when I was 9 until I was 11 (1959-1961) as I used to travel from my school to our home in Coal Aston on the, then, new Firthwood Estate.

Chris Hunt