Tag: Leyland Titan PD2

Preston Corporation – Leyland Titan PD – BCK 367C – 61


Copyright Pete Davies

Preston Corporation
1954
Leyland Titan PD2/10 – PD3
Leyland – Preston Corporation H38/32F

BCK 367C started life as FRN 740 a 1954 PD2/10 with a Leyland H32/29R body which has been rebuilt to a PD3 format. She now resides in the North West Museum of Road Transport in St Helens, but was in need of some attention when I saw her during the summer. She has retained the Leyland outline to her bodywork, though some of the panels may have been relocated in the conversion and others have been added in order to lengthen her. Some visitors to the site may be thinking, “This isn’t in Preston!” Correct. She’s a long way from home, on Itchen Bridge in Southampton. The occasion was a rally to celebrate Southampton Corporation Transport Centenary, and the date was 6 May 1979. The ‘Union Flag on wheels’ following her is an Ipswich Fleetline in overall advertising livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

09/10/12 – 18:02

There were three distinctive types of conversions carried out by Preston between 1959 and 1967.
Eight 7’6″ PD2/10s were converted and all bore the Preston devised chassis designation of PD3/6 – a designation that Leyland Motors accepted. All eight vehicles received new PD3 chassis frames, Forward entrances replaced rear platforms and much of the original outline and coachwork was retained.
Between 1959 and 1963 four lowbridge bodies were converted. “The Leyland Bus” suggests that they were converted to highbridge layout at the same time as the road under the railway bridge that had necessitated their purchase had been lowered.
In 1963 two highbridge vehicles were converted followed by two more, one in 1965 as illustrated above and a final conversion in 1967. The last two were widened to 8′.
The classic Colin Bailey body outline is unmistakable – the only jarring note being the insertion of the short bay immediately behind the first window on the top deck rather than amidships. The original bodies had the more attractive version of Leyland’s final double deck design with recessed window pans and radiused corners top and bottom which were retained and which make the bus look as modern as anything else produced in the 1960s.
Preston thus ended up with the only 7’6″ PD3s, the only forward entrance Leyland double deck bodies and the only 30′ Leyland double deck bodies.

Phil Blinkhorn

09/10/12 – 18:05

I submitted a view of DRN 308 in “more or less” original form, as a companion to this, seen while on training duties in Fleetwood in 1975. Unfortunately, Peter found it too dark to be used.

Pete Davies

10/10/12 – 09:40

I believe that Dreadnought Coaches of Alnwick has one. I once saw it in the dark returning from Wedding duties.

Philip Carlton

10/10/12 – 09:41

I wonder what one of the 7’6″ PD3s would have looked like with a St. Helens style PD3A front on as these were 7’6″ wide and most body builders had to taper the front of their 8ft wide bodies to accommodate them.

Eric Bawden

10/10/12 – 12:08

An interesting prospect, Eric, which would have qualified this class for an additional “unique” feature over those Phil B mentions above!

Pete Davies

10/10/12 – 12:09

Eric, A quick look through “The Leyland Bus” photos of St Helens front vehicles shows that some, rather than most, bodybuilders tapered their front to fit.
The more traditional builders (such as Massey) only offered a taper but with other builders the width was at the discretion of the operator.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/10/12 – 07:31

I remember the Southampton Centenary Weekend in May 1979 very well.
I was working at Derby City Transport at the time and myself and the late Gerald Truran, the Chief Engineer, (and Author of ‘Brown Bombers’ the History of Neath and Cardiff Luxury Coaches) entered Derby’s Foden Double Decker Fleet No. 101 in the event. Sorry but the Foden does not qualify for this site.
The drive down was slow but uneventful until just before Winchester when she started giving cause for concern. Don’t ask me what, it is a long time ago and I am no mechanic.
So a detour was made off the A34 in to Sutton Scotney where a visit was made to the long gone Taylor’s Coaches premises. The staff and management were most accommodating as is usually the case when Bus men need help from other Bus men, and a repair was made (NO charge) and we were soon on our way.
One thing I remember about the visit was an old Bedford lurking in one of the many buildings.
I made inquiries and was told it was a Bedford with a Plaxton Consort body and had come from Comfy Coaches of Farnham.
Unfortunately, and much to my regret, I never took a photograph but I have found an image of it at this link. By the way, we did not win anything at the Rally but it was a great weekend, and the trip back was uneventful.

Stephen Howarth

11/10/12 – 08:58

With regard to Stephen’s visit to Sutton Scotney, Taylor’s had their Bedford OB HAA 874 in this same rally. It must have been a rare outing for her, as she was using the company’s trade plate.

Pete Davies

14/10/12 – 08:00

PRN 761_lr

This is the ex Preston 2 (PRN 761) rebuild currently with Dreadnaught Coaches of Alnwick, referred to by Philip Carlton.
It is seen at their depot in June of this year, on a typical (!) summer’s day.

Bob Gell

21/05/14 – 12:29

SRN 376

The PD2 version of No.61 was H30/28R when new. It was reseated to H32/29R in 11/1958 as part of a rolling programme to increase the seating capacity on all the PD2/10s. All four highbridge conversions were done to the same width of 8ft. There were no 7ft 6ins wide conversions. The four lowbridge buses were increased in height fom 13ft 6ins to 14ft 2ins. As previously said they were used alongside the lowbridge PD1s on the Ashton A service which passed under the height/width restricted railway bridge on Fylde Road. The road surface was lowered in 1957 thereafter permitting highbridge buses to pass underneath in the centre of the road.

Mike Rhodes

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

05/09/14 – 07:30

I was the owner and driver of 61 on the Southampton Centenary event, having driven it down from Somerset through Dorset and via zig-zag hill ! Lovely to see this picture, and it shows what good condition the bus was in at that time. Unfortunately it now languishes in the N W Transport Museum in St’Helens, looking rather unloved – no-one seems interested in it anymore, despite my offers to help fund its restoration.
Any other Preston fans out there who would be keen to see it restored ? If so, leave a name and e-mail address, please.

Nick Sommer

Your email address will not be posted on site to avoid spammers, but I will pass it on to Nick.

North Western – Leyland Titan PD2/1 – CDB 237 – 237

North Western Leyland Titan PD 2/1

North Western Road Car
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland L27/26R

The full name was North Western Road Car Company Ltd and they were based at Stockport near Manchester. Another bus with a painted radiator did absolutely nothing for appearances the top deck windows are fairly deep for a lowbridge body though, the photo taken at Dean Street bus station, no it wasn’t, see comment below it was Lower Mosley Street bus station Manchester in 1965.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

“The photo was taken at Lower Mosley Street Bus Station, not Dean St, which was predominantly used by long distance services and is now the site of the Bridgewater Hall concert hall. Of the few relatively local services which used this city centre terminus were the No 6 to Glossop via Ashton New Rd, The No 28 to Hayfield via Stockport and Marple and the No 27 to Buxton via Stockport and Disley. My guess is that the bus in the picture was on one of these routes.”

Stuart Kirkham

Just to clarify, Stuart’s comments beginning “which was predominantly used by long distance services…” all refer to Lower Mosley Street Bus Station.  There was no bus station in Dean Street.

Peter Williamson

Looks like this bus was on route 29, Manchester Lower Mosley Street to Macclesfield. Used to leave Lower Mosley Street at 10 past every hour and operated by either Manchester or Wilmslow depots. I used to drive this route many times in the 60s but usually with Dennis Lolines or Leyland Tiger Cubs (LDB 796 was a regular on this route from the Wilmslow depot).

Richard Higgs ex employee of NWRCC ltd 1960-1968

16/12/12 – 17:28

It’s on the 29 to Macclesfield. Must be a summer Saturday for such an old vehicle to be on the premier service. Service was double decked in December 1961 with route variations in Macclesfield to avoid the Gas Road Railway bridge. Always amazing to see on “old” double decker rather than a new Loline or Fleetline on the service. I did see K5Gs once or twice in 1962-3.
796 was originally a Wilmlsow car and used on their one “turn” on the 29. Previously 699 or 700 had been the favourites. Happy days.

Bob Bracegirdle

17/12/12 – 08:12

Not necessarily a Saturday. Could also have been a replacement for a failed vehicle from either Wilmslow or Macclesfield. By 1965 Fleetlines were the regular vehicles backed up by Lolines – which came back into their own on the route in Crosville colours – after the split of NWRCC

Phil Blinkhorn

17/12/12 – 09:41

The #29 was the one bus route in Manchester that left after all the Corporation buses had departed town at 23:00 hrs and before the all-nighters began at double fares at 23:15. The 23:10 #29 operated on normal fares and ran through as far as Wilmslow. Very handy if one had been to the pics on Oxford Street and then gone for a drink, or two.

Orla Nutting

Halifax Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/37 – CJX 329C – 289

Halifax Corporation - Leyland Titan PD2/37 - CJX 329C - 289

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1965
Leyland Titan PD2/37
Weymann H36/28F

Halifax buses with fleet numbers below 200 were owned by Halifax corporation, fleet numbers above 200 were owned by the Joint Omnibus Committee.
Photo taken 100 yards from where I used to live. Travelled miles on these Titans.

11/03/11 – 16:18

Nice shot made even better with the Yorkshire hills as a back drop.

Roger Broughton

11/03/11 – 18:58

Steep Lane terminus was perched on the apex of a hill with the reverse manoeuvre carried out by pulling up another hill to the left. There were magnificent views over the Calder Valley from the terminus. If you go there today you may well see preserved buses outside the premises of Yorkshire Heritage Bus Company down below adjacent to the railway line at Luddendenfoot. An unusual feature of Halifax buses pre Fleetline was that the double stainless top rails on the saloon seats had a timber infill with two long finger grips on each side. It’s not something I have come across anywhere else. One (or more?) small brackets were part of the stainless rails which located and secured the timber. Halifax used a rather pleasant ‘Autumn Leaves’ moquette for the lower saloon seating material. The short PD2/37 model was ideal for some of the narrow roads and sharp corners in the Calder and Ryburn Valleys.

Ian Wild

29/05/11 – 07:05

These vehicles did not have the wooden seat infill I think they were the last Weymann bodies as this factory went on strike and closed, some 10 chassis being diverted to Roe. A change away from the brown for double deck specification and removal of leather trim reduced the price and I think they had moquette downstairs and green plastic seats upstairs, I too travelled to school on these when new, they were much nicer than the 241-248 batch

Christopher

22/09/11 – 14:05

Regarding the wooden infill between the double top rails on the seats, I may be wrong here but I seem to recall seeing the same thing on the Bury Corporation PD3/6’s (with GEN registrations). If this was the case it would perhaps not be surprising since they were the last buses ordered by Richard LeFevre whilst GM at Bury, before he moved to Halifax and ordered similar, but forward entrance, PD3’s there. There is a Bury PD3 preserved, maybe someone involved with it could confirm or otherwise.

John Stringer

04/02/12 – 05:27

I seem to recall the earlier Bury Corporation Weymann bodied PD2’s also had the wooden seat infill which supports the theory that it was a LeFevre feature. These PD2’s also had the same destination display which Mr LeFevre took to Halifax. The Bury PD3/6’s had the Nottingham style ‘T’ shape destination display which infers they were actually delivered after Frank Thorpe had moved to Bury from Nottingham.

Philip Halstead

05/02/12 – 06:48

I said “I may be wrong here” – and I was! I met up with the preserved ex-Bury PD3 at the Nocturnal Heart of the Pennines Rally in Halifax last October, and it did not have the wooden seat infills, but I’m still pretty sure I did once see them on some Bury bus or other whilst on a bus club visit there. Do we not concern ourselves with the most obscure things ?

John Stringer

05/02/12 – 16:20

This last batch of Weymann bodied PD2/37 buses for Halifax was delayed by the strike at the Addlestone works. In January 1966, a contingent of staff from HPTD, including Geoff Hilditch himself, set off in Leopard 269 and collected the final few (nine, if I remember correctly) of this order, returning in convoy to Halifax. CJX 329C was one of these.

Roger Cox

05/02/12 – 16:29

This pic. captures very well how smart the Halifax livery could be and even enhance the looks of the Orion style body. If neglected and faded though this livery could look quite shabby.

Eric

06/02/12 – 07:37

It was the orange that faded badly in service, and matching the colour on replacement panels was virtually impossible. It seems that, on 8 August 1956, when Roderick MacKenzie was GM of Halifax, Daimler CVG6 MCCW H33/26R No 285 appeared wearing a reversed livery which had the orange at the top and the green on the lower panels. The negative reaction was so pronounced that the bus was quickly repainted, but the effect surely cannot have been that bad, being rather similar, I would think, to the old, attractive Chatham and District colour scheme. I suspect that good old Yorkshire traditionalism played a part in the antipathy towards the revised colour layout. I am a little surprised that GGH didn’t try this idea again. The maintenance savings would have made it worthwhile.

Roger Cox

06/02/12 – 07:38

Hope I don’t digress here. Whilst I don’t recall the Bury PD3/6’s having wooden infills I most certainly do recall that all the handrails on these buses were light green. Over time this coating wore off to expose the normal silvery metal. This was particularly so where the handrails were highly used by the doors etc. I agree that these buses were a Frank Thorpe style, not only Nottingham and Bury but Newport too. Similar style buses for all three undertakings had two track route number displays both with a small white rectangle to line up and give tidy displays. When viewed from outside the rectangle on the ‘tens’ display was on the right and that on the ‘units’ display was on the left – thus were both between the two displayed numbers resembling a decimal point of sorts so much so that a school chum of mine always referred to service 19 buses as ‘one point nine’

David Slater

06/02/12 – 13:37

Halifax buses generally looked magnificent when newly repainted, but as Eric says they could fade really badly.
By the time I undertook my PSV training in the Summer of 1973 the ex-East Yorkshire ‘Yellow Peril’ full-fronted PD2 Training Bus (403, MKH 81)) had been sold, and there was temporarily no ‘proper’ training vehicle. Instead two PD2 services buses were mostly used, both having expired CoF’s, and which were awaiting overhaul and recertification. These were 67 (DCP 67D) and 221 (MCP 221). Other spare PD2’s were used as well if they were available for a couple of hours or so. The first bus I ever drove was 67. New in 1966 it had reached the end of its initial 7-year CoF, had never been repainted during that time, and now looked really thoroughly down at heel and disgraceful.
Before Skircoat Garage was remodelled in the early 1980’s, there were two old bus side panels attached to the top of one of the rear outside walls just below roof level. They were painted in bands of different shades of green and orange, apparently as a long term trial of various different paint manufacturers’ products to assess their different weathering characteristics. How long they had been up there I never found out.
During the early days of WYPTE, those buses still in the old HPT livery mostly looked absolutely awful – not only very faded paintwork, and in umpteen different shades, but often with scrapes and dents that would never have been tolerated in HPT days. Some even had new panels still in unpainted aluminium, or in a reddish-brown primer, and were an absolute embarrassment to be seen driving, to be honest.
When I was a young child back in the late ‘fifties though, I can remember that the livery used to fade even worse, turning into almost matt pastel shades – the orange becoming almost pale yellow, the green a wishy washy dirty pale shade, and the cream more like off-white. This was probably due to the paint technology of the period and heavy industrial pollution, rather than neglect. Some of the worst were the Joint Committee’s ACP-registered Regent III’s, which probably never received the remedial strengthening work that some of the others had, and which were the first to be sold off in 1958/59.
I recall waking one morning in 1958 to find several of these and other types lined up along the road in front of our house, all with their coats of arms and fleet numbers painted out. Apparently they had been sold to a dealer in London (this would be A.M.C.C) and their drivers were partaking of a hearty breakfast in the nearby transport cafe before setting off on the long journey south. Eventually I watched them all fire up and depart in convoy, and felt really sad to see this shabby, faded and dejected collection vanish round the corner and out of sight.

John Stringer

07/03/12 – 08:43

It is correct to say that Bury had wooden fillets on some batches of its fleet this was a Richard LeFevre design which came about after a female passenger broke her wrist when she fell forward whilst trying to steady herself against the seat top after the bus pulled up sharp. The idea transferred to Halifax when Mr LeFevre became GM along with the Bury destination box too!

Richard McAllister

08/03/12 – 07:05

It’s worth noting that the current accessibility regulations for tramcars (and possibly other modes as well) recognise this issue and prohibit small apertures such as that between the top handrail and the seat frame, for this very reason. Bury and Halifax were clearly quite advanced!

David Beilby

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

04/04/12 – 16:29

3126

I thought I had a picture somewhere showing the wooden infills between the top seat rails. Here is what was Halifax Corporation 73, by this time WYPTE 3073, near Mount Tabor on 17th January 1976. Note this batch came after the JOC ones such as 289 and both Weymann-bodied batches DID have these wooden fillers, I’ve checked with my photographs. However, the Roe-bodied ones did not.

David Beilby

05/04/12 – 18:21

Here is a link to another photo of the interior of a Halifax Leyland showing the wooden seat infills.  //www.flickr.com/  
On this site there are some really fascinating and atmospheric photo’s of Halifax and WYPTE Calderdale buses taken in service by former driver John Thompson in the 1970’s.

John Stringer

20/07/15 – 06:54

Bit late I know but the wooden I fills in the seat back rails were used on Burys Weymann PD2s and the two AECs, numbered 176-186. The earlier Weymann PD2s in the 151-175 number series may also have had them, but they were pretty much on the way out by the time I was old enough to identify the different types so I can’t say for certain.

David Pomfret

Yorkshire Woollen District – Leyland Titan – HD 8553 – 699

Yorkshire Woollen District - Leyland Titan PD2 - HD 8553 - 699

Yorkshire Woollen District Transport
1963
Leyland Titan PD2
Roe H63R

Now this gets interesting according to my book this is a 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/3 with a Roe H56R body. Well it is defiantly not a rear entrance that’s plain to see and the registration of just two letters I think came well before 1950. I think its time to get Googleing
Here is a result found on the SCT ’61 website the link takes you to a better photo of the same bus, the info found does make sense to me it is as follows.
“Yorkshire Woollen rebuilt a number of Leyland Tiger PS single deckers as double deck vehicles in the 1950s and 1960s. One such is HD8553, a PS2/5 given a Roe front entrance body in 1962 and numbered 699 – later renumbered 502 by YWD.
This bus and its brethren survived long enough to receive NBC livery.”

I think your history is wrong.
A large number of PS1s were rebodied. I saw one of the first which was painted “Poppy Red” in Frost Hill depot parked in the middle of the depot It looked terrible then. The new bodies were MCW Orion.
They weighed less after re-bodying than when original.
They were very noisy and cold as the new bodies were single skinned.
The photograph is one of a small batch of PS2s which were rebuilt much later. the chassis were rebuilt by YWD with new chassis sides, they originally had a bolt on chassis extension as the rules changed when they were originally built. I think there were only 8 rebuilt. A like number were sold to Yorkshire Traction for rebuilding the only difference was that the Yorkshire Traction rebuilds were reregistered. I never found out why.

E. Malone

I will investigate this further find my own information and get back, check with the ‘Latest Comments’ page for any update.
Here are the details of a batch of six Leyland Tiger PS2/5 chassis that were re-bodied by Roe to H35/28F in 1963 Reg no HD 8551-4 and HD 8562-3 they went into service with fleet nos 697-700 and 708-9 respectively.
The above photograph is one of this batch and this information backs up the original article.
An extra piece of information I found is that the original Tigers were probable bodied by Willowbrook with a B38F body and were first built in 1950.
The PS1 chassis you mention were a batch of 24 originally built in 1948 the registrations are a bit haphazard but are late HD 7800s and very early 7900s the fleet nos are a bit the same but they all fall between 562-631. These were re-bodied by Metro-Cammell with H56R ‘Orion’ bodies in 1954-5.

Peter

Richard Malone is wrong about the colour. Poppy red only came in with NBC.  The closest to the original colour was Post Office red. I know this from a YWD Fleetline I owned at one time.
There were 75 Brush bodied Leyland Tigers PS1s, fleet numbers 558-632 registration HD7841-7915. In 1954 12 of these were rebodied as double deckers with fleet numbers (562/75/7/97/8/9/603/11/3/4/6/20) with a weight of 6.8.1 tons. A further 12 were rebodied in 1955 as fleet numbers (570/4/83/7/8/96/618/24/7/8/30/1) with a weight of 6.7.0 tons. It is interesting to note that they weighed 6.9.1 tons as Tiger single deckers.
I own the only survivor of the original batch of Brush bodied Tiger PS1s fleet no 622 registration HD 7905 which can be seen here.
The Willowbrook/PS2s, 697-725, HD8551-79 (and OPD2s, 728-733, HD8710-5) were built in 1949. They were originally 27’6″ long with B32F bodies these were then lengthened to 30′ B38F by Willowbrook between June 1954 and June 1955. Six were rebodied by Roe as H63F (697-700/8/9) for YWD a further nine went to YTC (701/4/6/7/10/1/2/4/6) in 1962, rebodied by Northern Counties as front entrance double deckers. (One of these still exists.)

Gordon Brooke

The subject of re registrations of bus rebuilds is an interesting one. I was always curious about the batch of Leyland PS2s that were rebodied as double deckers by both Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woollen. The Y W D ones kept their old 2 letter HD marks yet the YTC ones were allocated new YHE marks of the time. Another example of these double standards concerns County Motors of Lepton owned by YTC, YWD and West Riding. In 1955 they had two elderly single deckers rebodied as double deckers. They wanted to give them new registrations but Huddersfield CBC would not allow this so they were transferred to Barnsley where they were given new marks of the time.

Philip Carlton

Difficult to tell from the photo if the width of this vehicle, was a PS2/5 7ft 6in or 8ft wide? The original batch of re-bodies, from PS1 chassis were certainly 7ft 6in Orions. When Birch Bros had some PD1’s re-bodied with Orions by MCW a year or so later, they were virtually identical even down to the destination display. Maybe the same drawings were used!

Chris Barker

01/01/14 – 09:14

I drove these buses in 1965 at this time I lived in Heckmondwyke and worked at Becklane Depot I remember the P duties they worked Mirfield Bradford 65 service they seemed to be sluggish pullers..

Jack

03/01/14 – 10:00

I would like to comment on the “Hales Cake” vehicle shown in Colin Shears yard. It is a Leyland TS7 and was East Midland Motor Services No10 BAL 610. In the 1950s I worked at EMMS Chesterfield workshops at this time after I left school and remember this vehicle well it was one of eighteen rebodied by Willowbrook in 1948 it looked far better in EMMS livery of biscuit cream and brown picture shown in Mikes afterlifes.

Jack

26/10/16 – 06:41

I remember the forward entrance versions of these rebodies on B and C services from Ossett to Fir Cottage in YWD red and cream and then NBC poppy red not bad for a bus built as a single decker in the late 1940s and still in service in the 1970s we cannot say that today, by the way I liked them as much as AEC Regent Vs.

David Parkin

27/10/16 – 08:17

To answer Chris Barker’s question from way back, the PS2/5 was 8 feet wide.

Peter Williamson

28/10/16 – 07:37

Peter W, thanks for your answer, I’m certain that these vehicles reverted to their original length of 27ft 6ins. upon rebuilding as double deckers, the seating capacity of 63 seems to support this. However, when they ran as single deckers, presumably they had drop frame extensions to enable the provision of luggage boots and then they were extended to 30ft length, still with drop frame rears, so was the chassis itself extended? When they became double deckers, a drop frame extension would have been of no use on a front entrance d/d but if it was simply removed, the rear overhang would have needed supporting somehow, I imagine new chassis frames were the only answer. Perhaps it might have been easier to rebody them as 30ft double deckers!

Chris Barker

31/03/17 – 15:37

The registration of just two letters I think came well before 1950.
Dewsbury didn’t reach HD 9999 until November 1953 – while it took until April 1960 for Bootle to reach EM 9999 and August 1960 for Rutland to reach FP 9999.
And nine Scottish counties didn’t reach 9999 with two letters before the year suffix system was introduced in 1964/5 – Buteshire famously only getting as far as SJ 2860.

Des Elmes

06/09/17 – 06:44

Chris Barker, I think you will find that NONE of the PS1 or 2’s owned by YWD had luggage boots. The emergency door was in the middle at the back on both those models.

Ron Lake

Blackpool Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/27 – PFR 334 – 334


Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Blackpool Corporation
1959
Leyland Titan PD2/27
Metro Cammell Weymann FH35/28R

Blackpool were really into the full frontal look I think it was to make them look like the trams that Blackpool is famous for. Before these normal looking full frontal Titans they had other versions which they classed as ‘streamlined’. The bodies were built by Burlingham a local body builder, I think they were bought out by the better known company called Duple.
There is a photo of a ‘streamlined’ Blackpool Leyland Titan here.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

This photo is clearly of 334 (PFR 334), not 344. Good pic, though. 334 was one of a batch of 30 numbered 331-350. The 1960 abc British Bus Fleets No.6 (Lancashire), shows the seating as 61, reduced to 59 in the summer (for increased luggage space?). Burlingham were based in Blackpool and after the Duple takeover, the factory was known as Duple (Northern).

A Woods

Thanks for that, new glasses required I think, I have altered the heading so it is now correct.

Does your 1960 abc book have the above vehicle as a PD2/27 as my 1965 version because the website ‘Bus Lists on the Web’ has it has a PD2/40?

The 1965 abc British Bus Fleets No.6 lists a batch of 50 as the following:-
301 – 310 PD2/21
311 – 350 PD2/27

The ‘Bus Lists on the Web’ site has the same batch of 50 as the following:-
301 – 310 PD2/21
311 – 330 PD2/27
331 – 350 PD2/40

Can anyone solve this anomaly.

Peter

There is certainly plenty of odd information about these buses. I quote from two sources:
In “Blackpool’s Buses”, by David Dougill, the fleet list shows 301-305 as PD2/21 with Burlingham bodies, while 306-310 had MCW bodies. 311-350 were PD2/27 with MCW bodies. “Trams and Buses Around Blackpool” by the well-know duo Steve Palmer and Brian Turner gives the same detail. The only difference between 311-330 and 331-350 is that the earlier numbers were delivered in 1958 and the later ones arrived in 1959.

Pete Davies

The PD2/40 was an exposed radiator variant of the breed I would suggest that Blackpool had no exposed radiator buses delivered post war. Early ones had full font bodies to a Blackpool design by Burlingham while later examples both fully fronted and half cab had variations on the Leyland Titan tin front Some of Blackpools PD3s had an asymmetrical full front due to the revised “St Helens front” of concealed radiator PD3s

Chris Hough

Chris, I’m no Blackpool expert but do I recall in the murky recesses of the mind that sometimes “exposed” radiators with smaller blocks were provided for certain full-front applications? Does that clarify – or muddy – the waters?

David Oldfield

This bus survived longer than most of its classmates as, along with 337, it was converted for use a Permanent Way staff bus in which guise they were numbered 434/7 (346 also worked for the Electrical Services department).
From my time at Blackpool I have a 1978 fleet list which shows these as PD2/27s which entered service on 25th and 26th March 1959 respectively.

David Beilby

Blackpool 334 was a PD2/27 as David Beilby confirms. To answer David Oldfield, Leyland supplied the ‘exposed radiator’ version of the Titan for full front designs where the front grille was part of the body design rather than being one of Leyland’s standard fronts. Examples are Ribble’s PD3’s with Burlingham and MCW bodies and the Southdown ‘Queen Mary’ Northern Counties bodied PD3’s. They were PD3/4 and PD3/5’s. As Blackpool used both the standard Leyland BMMO and St Helens style bonnets in their full fronts these Titans were the concealed front chassis types, PD2/21,PD2/27,PD3/1 and finally PD3A/1. The latter had the asymmetrical front windows with the nearside windscreen ‘drooping’ down to follow the shape of the St Helens style bonnet. This arrangement was also used on PD3A/2’s operated by Bolton Corporation with both East Lancs and MCW forward entrance bodies.

Philip Halstead

02/02/11 – 10:00

I was the last driver of PFR 339, one of the buses mentioned in the above article. It was being used as a play bus for the Wisbech area and survived in a working state until 1982. It used to move from one school to another in this area to provide a base for play schools in village where none existed. Gradually these village were able to form their own playgroups in accommodation of their own so PFR 339 worked at achieving it’s own demise. Eventually in 1982 it stayed in one school for a few years as a permanent base, but was eventually replaced by a more suitable form of accommodation. Clement Freud and his wife Jill were instrumental in setting it up in the first place.

Peter Thatcher

04/11/18 – 07:21

When I were a nipper as the saying goes me, my sister took a day trip to Blackpool. We went by Ribble X61, a DP Leyland Leopard out and a White Lady Atlantean (RRN reg) back to Liverpool.
We had a ride on a Balloon tram (two 1s, two 6d). We kept the ticket for years,it was a TIM issue. From the tram ticket we got the date 8th August, 1968.
Note the date. I spotted a BRAND NEW gleaming Leyland Titan PD3A, which could only have been LFR 538/9/40G when a week old. Sadly they were Blackpool’s last such buses but they gave good service unlike many mid-late 1960s back loader of which only the Routemaster had a long life
In my opinion the St Helens bonnet didn’t suit a full front, which Blackpool Corporation recognised by specifying half cabs for 381-399 and 500-540. The 1950s Leyland Titans would have looked better with a Ribble style grille, but I guess BCT wanted to be different! .

Paul Mason

Morecambe & Heysham – Leyland Titan PD2/37 – 33 MTD – 87


Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Morecambe & Heysham Corporation
1960
Leyland Titan PD2/37
Massey H37/27F

Here is a difference in livery for Morecambe & Heysham Corporation the old as depicted on fleet number 63 in the background and the new on the Leyland Titan PD2 fleet number 87 in the foreground even in black & white the new livery looks more attractive. The colours by the way were a darkish green and cream. Morecambe & Heysham had a tendency to get there money’s worth out of there buses and kept them a little bit past what other operators would regard as there sell by date, luckily for us bus enthusiasts (more photos to follow).
The PD2/37 coding breaks down as follows:- exposed radiator, synchromesh gearbox, air brakes, 27 foot long by 8 foot wide and built 1955 onwards.
I do like the sliding doors but they never really caught on, why not? If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

The only sliding doors I ever experienced (on North Western Dennis Lolines and Lancashire United Guy Arab Vs) were air operated. This meant that they were moved by an accelerating force rather than at a steady speed as they would be by an electric motor. Being quite heavy they were slow to get moving, and then moved faster and faster, eventually shutting with a massive thump. I would not like to have been in their way.

Peter Williamson

You will be pleased to know that one of the Weymann-bodied batch 73 (MTE 635) survives at Keighley Bus Museum, where its owner Ken Wade is valiantly battling to replace about four tons of rotten steel and wood! Steel + wood + salt = bad news!
As far as sliding doors go, I concur with Peter: they were always sluggish in operation, and from the Green line “Q” double-decker to the SHMD short Fleetlines they were always troublesome.
One reason must be sheer physics: one big door has to be made quite rigid and is therefore very heavy, so it needs a lot of power to get it moving (unless it’s manually operated when it’s murder for the conductor!) Secondly, the single door leaf has to travel further to close the opening -about four feet as opposed to the one-foot movement required of a jack-knife door leaf, so it just takes longer to shut.
On a one-man bus they were worse still, because there was often an interlock to prevent the gears engaging until the door had closed, so they increased dwell times at stops and hindered time-keeping too. For the record, the twin-sliders on SHMD centre-entrance buses are electric, and they’re fairly quick, but still slower than the jacknife type.

David Jones

Sliding doors were common in this area; I’m 99% certain that Ribble’s full-fronted PD3s had them and also Lancaster City Transport’s PD2s, (201-206).

Dave Tower

When Southend Corporation purchased some ex Ribble deckers with sliding doors they were nicknamed Bacon Slicers. I recall that they tended to be slow to close and then speeded up and closed with a bang. I recall that Yorkshire Traction had a batch of PD3s with sliding entrance doors.

Philip Carlton

It must’ve been a regional thing because as a kid in the 1960s sliding doors were quite common where I lived.

See these two links which show the kind of bus which I regularly saw

//www.flickr.com/

//www.flickr.com/

KC

Arriva Yorkshire’s newish reputedly hi-spec Volvo/Optare Double Deckers rattle constantly: although you could sometimes put it down to driving style, the noise seems to come from the folding front doors. So is it back to sliders?

Joe

All Yorkshire Traction’s Northern Counties and Roe bodied PD3’s had sliding doors and the description of that accelerating door followed by a solid thump was just as bad east of the Pennines as it was in Lancashire, very hard to set up perfectly.
The only exception on PD3’s they had were the two ex County Motors vehicles, these had traditional (as opposed to Park Royal style) bodies with jack knife doors.
The advantage of the sliding door though was that it maximised the width of the door aperture meaning that you could easily achieve a double flow of leaving or entering passengers to both saloons simultaneously whereas the jack knife type tend to narrow the doorway a bit.

Andrew

Morecambe and Heysham Corporation was the catalyst which got me hooked on buses when I was about 3 years old. in the 1945/8 period.
I recognised the similarity of Weymann body to those of my home town Bradford fleet, and the dis-similarity of the Park Royals. This was in the pre Mk III days, and one had a real job to recognise fleet numbers as they were all over the place on the pre-war stock, filling voids for withdrawn buses.
Anybody got a fleet list of the pre-war Regents and the single Regal?
What a super green livery too…I cannot believe I am talking about 60 odd years ago!

John Whitaker

John, I have a M & H fleet list of every bus the undertaking owned. If you are still interested contact me through the website.

Dave Towers

12/01/12 – 06:35

Here I am again on about Southdown but they did have a batch of PD2/12’s No’s 799-812 with East Lancs bodies plus one earlier Guy Arab with Park Royal body No 547 (thankfully now preserved) fitted with sliding doors on rear entrance bodies. These were different in as much as they were in two parts which with some, to me unknown, mechanical trickery slotted in between the rear wheel arch and the normal width platform. They were still very slow in operation and being electrically driven struggled manfully when facing up a steep hill, the driver was well advised to press the open button a little in advance if possible. I have only recently discovered your wonderful site and I am have fun exploring it, so I hope you will excuse my ramblings.

Diesel Dave

12/01/12 – 10:43

Ramble on as much as you like, along with the rest of us!
I don’t know where they were based, but seem to recall seeing one or two on route 31 around Portsmouth. However, Southdown had similar bus bodies made by Park Royal, Beadle and Northern Counties et al, and you had to look closely to tell the difference. Can’t recall whether they all had doors, though. I was distracted with girlfriends around this period!

Chris Hebbron

13/01/12 – 07:35

Welcome to the club, Dave, and, as Chris says, ramble on – from another David with diesel in his blood.

David Oldfield

14/01/12 – 07:34

From my childhood holiday memories, Blackpool had some centre entrance Burlingham bodied Leylands that I think were unique to them, they were fitted with two opposed sliding doors that closed like a guillotine. I never got to ride on them very much, but I will always remember one conductor calling out ‘mind the doors they’ve just been sharpened’. I know one of these vehicles is awaiting restoration with LTT preservation trust, but I don’t know if any more of them survive

Ronnie Hoye

14/01/12 – 07:36

Well Chris and Dave – not sure which was the greater distraction, but the Southdown PD2’s were great machines, even if I only sampled them as a teenage passenger! There were 112 of them (on PD2/12 chassis), the first 54 with Leyland bodies. The initial 24 were without doors on delivery in 1951, but soon had them fitted, and all the rest were delivered with doors. Then came 10 with Northern Counties bodies, and the rest were bodied by Beadle, Park Royal and East Lancs. As Dave says, some had sliding doors, although most had 4-piece folders. Until the PD3 Queen Marys came along from 1958 onwards, these were Southdown’s front line machines not only on the 31 to Brighton, but the London Road services out of Portsmouth to Waterlooville and Petersfield too. Before the Queen Mary’s took over everything in sight (as it seemed by 1965 onwards), the PD2/12s were nicely intermingled with earlier PD2s (80 of these also Leyland bodied)and PD1s (a mixture of Leyland and Park Royal bodies), and the surviving rebodied pre-war TD4s and TD5s. I loved the sound of a pre-war Leyland TD engine, and was sad to see the last Southdown one go in 1962. But the sound lived on in Portsmouth Corporation’s four open-top TD4s, and in their “Leylandised Crossleys” (as the local drivers called them). These survived until 1967, and the open-toppers until 1971/72, and all 4 still survive in preservation.

Michael Hampton

14/01/12 – 12:21

Barton’s Northern Counties bodied Regent V’s, plus there own rebuilt Leyland deckers all had sliding doors including the UK’s lowest height Dennis Loline which was at the 1960 commercial motor show.

Roger Broughton

14/01/12 – 14:00

Roger is right – all of those rebuilds had single piece sliding doors. The earlier PD1s with Duple front entrance bodies had twin doors, and from memory they were usually fairly gentle in operation. There were conductor or passenger operated “open/close” buttons above the doors (i.e. they were not under the control of the driver.) In warm weather they were often left open – none of this Health and Safety nonsense, and after all the other 70% of deckers had open rear platforms anyway!

Stephen Ford

13/02/13 – 04:30

When in the 1940s I used to stay with my gran who lived in Ingleborough Road we would take the bus to Morecambe. The bus used to detour off the main road and go through Torrisholme where I was always fascinated by a a large Italianate coloured statue in a garden which could be seen from upstairs on the bus. I wondered if it is still there or if anyone else remembers it.

Garth

26/03/13 – 06:41

My mum, Hilda Wilson, used to be a bus conductress on the Morecambe & Heysham buses and she and the other women (except one) could only work on them in the spring and summer. The lady who was allowed had worked on them before the war. There must have been some rule that prevented them. My mum used to have to finish before winter and start again the year after when the weather got warmer.

Lynne

26/03/13 – 11:23

More often than not, Lynne, it was the unions who objected to conductresses continuing after the war. I suppose your mum worked during the Summer Season, when services were augmented for the holidaymakers.

Chris Hebbron

27/03/13 – 06:49

I think that – for all it’s weaknesses (slow to operate, yet forceful when opening/closing [I understand that the repeated slamming when closing caused structural problems in the front near-side bulkhead]) and strength (unrestricted entrance/exit area) – the sliding door just came too late: the advent of the rear-engined/front-entrance double-decker killed it off (sliding door ahead of the front axle?) . . . apart from those strange dual-door Fleetlines supplied to Walsall and SHMD.

Philip Rushworth

27/03/13 – 16:51

I am replying to Lynne’s comments about conductresses on Morecambe’s buses. I was a seasonal conductor (student) in the early 60’s working about 3 months in each of four successive summers (remember those?!) and recall three full-time conductresses : Mrs Fisher, Mrs Camm and Ms Higgins. I have vague memories of your mother also Lynne (Mrs Wilson). Another conductress, Mrs Bell worked every year from Spring through Summer. Her husband was a full time driver and they were often rostered together. Unlike the many students who wore lightweight summer uniforms Mrs Bell was attired in full regular uniform (navy blue). They were years fondly remembered and all of my colleagues were tremendous characters – even the inspectors!

Keith Nicholson

28/03/13 – 06:39

Keith, you may find this a funny question, but have you lived in Market Deeping?

David Call

28/03/13 – 17:58

Well David – how right you are! Yes I did live in Market Deeping and I needed to get the abacus out to calculate when! I was there for about 6 years and left in 1988 or thereabouts. I now live in Peterborough and in my retirement I make ‘guest appearances’ for Stagecoach locally driving on city routes. What’s our connection?

Keith Nicholson

29/03/13 – 06:44

I used to know a lad in Heysham (I lived in Morecambe at the time) who, in the 1970s (and possibly longer, of course), kept in touch with you. It’s a small world, bus enthusiasm – everyone knows everyone else, if only indirectly.

David Call

29/03/13 – 17:07

Thank you David for enlightening me!
It brought back memories of CH and his involvement with M & H TD’s unique No 72 (MTC 540) which was stored in the open at Steamtown, Carnforth in the late 70’s. This bus was new to Morecambe in 1950 and came directly from the Earls Court Commercial Vehicle show in that year. It sported original dark green livery then. The vehicle, an AEC Regent III, was the last of Morecambe’s pre-selectors and was fitted with a larger engine than its sisters. The bus is currently undergoing restoration.
I conducted No. 72 many times on the Carnforth route – a service jointly operated with Ribble. The ‘middle Carnforth’ duty (12.53 – 20.27) was a particular favourite of mine. The conductor’s place on the platform was draughty and cold (even in summer) with winds coming straight off the Bay. The driver’s turn of speed through Hest Bank and Bolton-le-Sands didn’t help either! I was told that this was the reason that AEC Regent V No. 84 (793 ATD) was fitted with rear platform doors under the control of the driver for use on this service in winter. Unfortunately he often forgot to open or close them! No.84 was the only bus in the fleet fitted with rear platform doors.
Returning to the original subject of this posting (Leyland Titan PD2/37 No. 87) I conducted this vehicle and its two sisters many times on the “Circular” route. After the relative ‘seclusion’ of rear-entry vehicles I found that standing at the front under the perpetual gaze of the passengers was somewhat unnerving! However I recall conducting this vehicle one Sunday morning in the 60’s for the ‘nurses special’. This involved gathering up these fine ladies early morning from the Queen Vic Hospital in Thornton Road presumably after working a night shift and taking them home. We did not operate over any recognised bus route but I think we went along the Promenade and Broadway at one point before starting conventional Sunday services.

Keith Nicholson

30/03/13 – 07:27

Keith, thanks for the interesting recollections of the Carnforth route. Now please correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it linked with Overton at the other end? I believe the route went through Middleton (well I suppose it would have to do!) and then down a fairly lonely stretch of road into Overton, maybe turning round in a pub car park, where the landlady was well known for her collection of eggs. End to end I expect this would have taken at least an hour, perhaps venturing into the bus station rather than directly along the prom.

Dave Towers

30/03/13 – 12:05

Keith was a seasonal conductor with M & H C T D in the early 1960s, and the Carnforth buses didn’t start running through to Overton until the late 1970s, i.e. in consequence of the so-called ‘agency agreement’ whereby the purely local services of Ribble and (by then) Lancaster City Council were considerably recast with the operators having their agreed running costs guaranteed by Lancashire County Council, who, presumably, became the people who were required to ensure that public transport paid its way. Although both the Carnforth and Overton routes had previously been operated jointly (Ribble/Council), after the agency agreement came into effect the combined service was operated solely by Lancaster City Council. Conversely Ribble began to run some services which had been purely Council-operated. The round trip time on Carnforth-Overton was two hours, and yes, it is my recollection that the service diverted via Euston Road, but not actually going into the bus station (which may or may not have existed by that time, I’m not sure now).
By the time of the above changes the terminus at Overton had moved from the pub car park (‘Ship’ hotel, was it?) to a new turning circle at the Middleton end of the village, which I presume still exists.
These so-called ‘agency agreements’ were widespread but within a few years bus deregulation came along, this the County Councils were generally opposed to (they weren’t the only ones, of course) because it effectively undid the work they had done over the previous decade or so coordinating bus services.

David Call

31/03/13 – 17:42

Herewith a reply to Dave and David!
The Overton service in the early 60’s started from and terminated at the Battery. Anyone wanting to travel to Carnforth from Overton would then have had to take three buses! Many of the drivers at the time would have loved to operate such a ‘long’ route. It did come as David points out – but sadly too late for these fine gents. The landlady of the Ship Inn, Overton was “Ma Macluskie” – a larger than life character who wore a very wide ‘brimmed hat and had a loud laugh! As correctly stated it was the conductor’s job to see the driver back when doing an offside reverse into the pub car park. The road from Middleton Corner was indeed narrow and winding and without bus stops (no ‘hail and ride’ in those days). Unusually this fare stage cost 3d to ride (as did the other service from this point to Middleton Tower Holiday Camp [Pontins])- all other single fare stage rides in the Borough were only 2d! In the later 60’s when I had moved away the Overton service evolved into a convoluted circular route by grafting it on to a town circular taking in Regent Road, Westgate, the Branksome estate, Euston Rd Station (ERS), Promenade and Westgate again! I remember with a shudder my first time on this Westgate service which had been omitted from my route learning! I had No 84 bus (AEC Regent 5 with rear-platform doors)on a very busy wet market day and with the doors closed all the windows steamed up and I couldn’t se where we were! I received what busmen call ‘a hammering’ and had no time to alter the rear indicator blind which showed blank for most of time!
Ribble did operate an Overton service but I’m not sure how it got to the Battery – via the Promenade or via ERS. It was relatively infrequent then -rather like their L14 to Bare.

Keith Nicholson

01/04/13 – 07:45

Thanks Keith for your recollections. I don’t imagine that residents of Overton would be too impressed at being deposited at the Battery, on the edge of the town and some distance away from the majority of the shops!
I’ve just dug out an old BBF 16 (Ribble) to have a look at the local services. There was an L11, Lancaster to Overton service run, it is claimed, jointly with Morecambe and Heysham Corporation. In all my years of living in Lancaster I can honestly say I never saw a green M&H bus in Lancaster bus station (even after the University service started around 1966) so the actual operational side must have been, I reckon, all provided by Ribble.
With regard to David’s posting regarding the ending of the Agency Agreement at deregulation, I can remember a time around 1988 when LCT and Ribble were competing vigorously on the Heysham to Lancaster University services. The timetables on these services changed, it seemed, every few weeks, with each operator moving their schedules five minutes in front of the other on a regular basis. I could swear that it wasn’t long before they went all the way round the clock with it! I’m fairly sure that between them they had something like six buses an hour chasing each other around even on Sundays, a terrible waste of resources. As you will know though, eventually some kind of truce was arrived at (I think in 1989) with both operators negotiating an agreed network which showed a lot more common sense, so this sort of agreement must have been permitted under deregulation.

Dave Towers

02/04/13 – 08:12

Thanks Dave. The only time you might have seen a green M & HTD bus in Lancaster in the 60’s was around midnight when a mechanic would take the late shift workers home (those without their own transport!)However even then I suspect it would have been a rare occurrence as the driver of this bus would be very reluctant to go there and would have tried his utmost to deposit any bus employee living in Lancaster as near to Torrisholme as possible!
The Overton service more than likely followed the L6 Ribble route to Heysham (via ERS, West End Rd, Westminster Rd and Battery). No ‘green’ bus operated beyond the Battery from points further out than ERS. I have a fare table dating from 1961 showing a service to Higher Heysham (Harbour Gates) from ERS. However I think this was probably a workman’s service and in my four years there the only time I operated a green bus this way was a football special from Christie Park to Heysham. We did not have a fare table for this entire journey and I remember guesswork being the order of the day for the those riders (the majority) wishing to travel beyond the Battery from Christie Park! Similar situations could arise on a very occasional basis elsewhere and usually a paper sheet showing the fares to charge would be provided by an inspector if one was to hand. On the above occasion I had to ‘go it alone’ however. Happy memories!

Keith Nicholson

02/04/13 – 08:12

Dave T: Such agreements were certainly not permitted under deregulation. The Monopolies and Mergers Commission would have taken a very dim view of any agreement between operators, and Traffic Commissioners had powers to reduce or revoke licences.
It was generally the case where this sort of competition did not result in one operator gaining a significant advantage over the other that both operators found that there were some routes where there was no gain from continuing to operate, and withdrew, leaving the other in possession. This would normally be a common sense business decision, resulting in what looked like a common sense division of the traffic.
Any suggestions that the respective Managing Directors had happened to bump into each other in a pub a few weeks earlier are of course entirely conjectural.

Alan Murray-Rust

27/08/13 – 05:32

Just to add that Morecambe & Heysham No 77 does of course survive as well as 73 and in spite of everything is still road worthy. In fact if it hadn’t been so late I would have taken it a quick spin last night but I was a bit tired!
Does anyone know what’s happened to No 20, JTE 546 since it was advertised for sale?

Bob Armour

30/09/13 – 08:00

The Battery Hotel is now closed and boarded up, My father worked for MHTD for over 30 years and stopped when the brought in 1 manning.
The “Terminus” at the “Battery” was the plot of land opposite the Battery Hotel, the land is now a “Health centre”.
And regarding a previous post regarding the “Border” of Morecambe and Heysham!! There used to be a post office between Stanley and Sefton road on the seaside of Heysham Rd next to a “Chippy” and had a “Zebra crossing” when I was a kid I was told that the “Border” was the “Zebra crossing. The crossing has now moved to the Battery.

I Bradshaw

28/07/14 – 07:44

I only found this web site by chance when trying to establish if the Trans – Pennine run still takes place on the first Sunday of August. Having lived in both Lancaster and Morecambe until January 1962 when the family moved to Peterborough I found the articles on both undertakings of great interest. I happened to visit the area only last Wednesday with my father (now 91)to see how much he remembered.
The Morecambe / Heysham border was of particular interest because my grandparents had a boarding house at 201 Heysham Road, directly opposite Rydal road and thus with a sea view. To give my father chance to look directly at the property I seemed to remember my grandmother saying that hers was the last house in Morecambe and that no. 203 was in Heysham. That would appear to be incorrect given the earlier comment.
I was always interested in transport (subsequently spending an enjoyable 40+ years in the freight industry) and whilst I have scores of old photos from the 50’s and early 60’s these are all of trucks rather than buses. I believe I have 1 odd bus photo (if I can find it) of a Leyland pulling into the bus station from Damside Street but unfortunately no story to go with it.

David Hayhurst

12/01/15 – 07:01

Does a list of what was on the destination blind of M&H buses exist anywhere?

Andy

17/01/15 – 06:12

Massey sliding doors were a victim of the usual British half cab/forward entrance body weakness found on just about every other chassis and body combination on such vehicles.
The Massey sliding door fitted to forward entrance PD2s (we had 4 of these at Baxter’s in Airdrie) would occasionally slide out of its runners, due to the amount of flexing in that area of these buses. It was therefore the case that the sliding door would rarely fall off the vehicle onto the roadway.
All of Baxter’s Massey bodied PD2s were of lowbridge configuration and the forward entrance examples made for interesting contortions by those of us who were employed as conductors. They were well liked by the drivers for their turn of speed, and ease of driving compared with the various Bristol Lodekkas we had in the fleet, which was under control of the SBG Eastern Scottish company when I was there.

Mr Anon

25/04/15 – 09:21

Andy there is a book called ‘Morecambe and Heysham’ by a Harry Postlethwaite. This has a fleet list in and is the history of MHTD Isbn number 978 190530 4424.

Ian Bradshaw

20/11/15 – 06:44

My dad was a bus driver in Morecambe, in the 1970’s (Ribble, not Corporation). Orginally there was a tram route between Morecambe and Heysham, and when drivers got a shift on that service they still said they were “on track”, presumably from the days when the old tramlines were still in the road. Does anyone know if they still say this?

Vaughan Birbeck

21/11/15 – 06:03

Vaughan, the entire Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham route (L6, later 570) was always known to Ribble crews as ‘the track’. I believe there are or were other operators (Midland Red is one of which I am aware) who also had a ‘track’.
I’ve not previously heard the suggestion that the term arose from the existence of tram tracks, and don’t know what to make of the idea really. As far as I am aware trams never operated between Lancaster and Morecambe – electric trams ran locally in Lancaster, horse trams in Morecambe, and petrol trams (I believe) between Morecambe Battery and Heysham (it may have been to the Strawberry Gardens, I’m not sure).
I worked at Ribble’s Morecambe depot through most of the 1970s (as a conductor, and later driver) and knew your father well.

David Call

21/11/15 – 09:34

The famous West Riding route 10 from Wakefield to Leeds (now 110) was (is?) known as “the track” and replaced (and even tried to imitate) the trams along this route.

Joe

22/11/15 – 06:55

The Tynemouth and District service 8 from North Shields Ferry Landing to the Bandstand at Whitley Bay, was also known as ‘The Track’ because it followed the exact route of the former tram route

Ronnie Hoye

22/11/15 – 06:56

Some interesting thoughts here about the origins of “The Track”, as it relates to the Lancaster & Morecambe area. I have – but it’s hidden behind a pile of stuff that normally lives under the model railway, while I do some major work on said model – an early 1900’s map of the area, and it does show SOME tram tracks. I’ll have a look to see if they did or did not run cross boundary.

Pete Davies

22/11/15 – 08:55

www.old-maps.co.uk has a 1913 1:2500 OS map which shows a tramway which can be traced from the Lune Bridge through to Morecambe where it terminates by going round the Euston Rd/Market St???/Cheapside/Moss Lane block, there is no indication that it is 2 tramways meeting end to end at the boundary. It does not appear to connect with the sea front tramway.

John Lomas

22/11/15 – 11:31

My ‘initiation’ with Midland Red, after route learning was ‘The Track’ – service 201 Smethwick to Worlds End. It was almost some sort of sadistic punishment, a D5 (no power steering) and 18 islands within some 5-6 miles! This was supposed to be shared between Digbeth & Bearwood garages. I still believe I was the only one from Digbeth, my arms hurt as I write!

Nigel Edwards

23/11/15 – 06:34

I’ve unearthed the book of maps. I can confirm that the Lancaster & District (horse-drawn) operation did cross the boundary at Torrisholme and it terminated in Market Street, Morecambe. The notes to map reference 434638 say that there was no connection with Morecambe Corporation’s (horse-drawn) operation along the seafront.

Pete Davies

23/11/15 – 06:34

Huddersfield services 370/1 between Lindley and Dalton/Rawthorpe are still known as ‘the track’ – maybe to do with the former trolleybus services on this route.

Ian Wild

24/11/15 – 13:46

I can’t now remember the Midland Red route I saw referred to as ‘The Track’, but I’m sure it wasn’t Smethwick to Worlds End. I think it’s likely that every significant depot would have had its own particular ‘track’.

David Call

25/11/15 – 07:25

The Midland Red route I remember being referred to as ‘The Track’ was the B87 Birmingham to Dudley via Smethwick and Oldbury, but as you say, David, there were probably others.

Allan White

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/01/19 – 06:29

For research purposes does anyone know why Morecambe & Heysham stopped their 40 year ‘nothing but AEC’ purchasing policy in 1960 when they bought the first of five Leyland PD2s??

Howard

03/01/19 – 16:32

I believe it was caused by the retirement of one Manager and the appointment of his replacement. Others may have a closer working knowledge of what happened in M&H. I was in Lancaster, and the two Councils didn’t “get on”!!!

Pete Davies

05/01/19 – 09:02

Leyland were always very persistent in pressing their claim to supply local authorities in Lancashire. I suspect they may have had a special campaign to drum up extra business round the end of the 50s. Even Nottingham, whose only previous experience of Leylands was 30 TTB3 trolleybuses in 1935, took 44 PD2/40s in 1958/59. There must have been some serious inducement to break with the tried and tested AEC Regents.

Stephen Ford

Halifax Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – CCP 162C – 62

Halifax Corporation - Leyland Titan PD2/37 - CCP 162C - 62
Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1965
Leyland Titan PD2/37
Roe H37/28F

This photo is of a C. H. Roe Version of an Halifax Corporation Leyland Titan PD2/37. You can compare it to a Weymann bodied version tomorrow when there will be Leyland Titan PD3 also operated by Halifax, so the appearance should not be affected by the livery.
This Titan was passed on to WYPTE on the 1st of April 1974 and renumbered 3062
The photo was taken outside the old head office of the Halifax Building Society, but there”s a different story altogether.
To see what the Halifax livery was like there is a colour shot of a Weymann PD2 of Halifax Corporation here.

Oldham Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/4 – DBN 330 – 427


Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Oldham Corporation
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/4
Leyland H30/26R

The PD2/4 was a special model it was a PD2/3 which was 26′ 0″ long 8′ 0″ wide, had an exposed radiator, synchromesh gearbox and this is where they differ the PD2/3 had vacuum brakes and the PD2/4 had air brakes. These buses were originally owned by Bolton Corporation but see below for Keith’s excellent comment.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

This photo shows 2 of the batch of Bolton PD2/4’s after sale to Oldham Corporation in approx 1966. In the company of Oldham’s traditional fare of Roe bodied Titans, they are wearing the maroon and white livery
These purchases arose due to the Ministry of Transport putting prohibition notices on a substantial number of Oldham’s fleet due to maintenance problems. Further Leyland bodied PD2’s were also purchased from Halifax and Sheffield, to help out at the time.
Also seen to the extreme right of the photo, is one of the hired in Manchester PD2/3 “3200” Leyland bodied “Salmon tins”, the original “Farringtons”.

Keith Jackson

A batch of PD2/4s found their way to Dublin Carrying the CIE version of the traditional Leyland body they were known not surprisingly as “Boltons” they lasted until the end of the 1960s. For many years CIEs also owned large numbers of enclosed radiator PD3s with in house bodywork which gives a vague idea of what 30 foot Leyland coachwork might have looked like. CIE retained the pre-war practice of a triple upper deck front window on theses buses which also had 6 lower deck windows. The last CIE Titans were rebuilds using parts of withdrawn Leyland Tiger PS types the bodywork was supplied CKD by Park Royal. Leicester had a batch of PD3s to a similar design in 1966 sadly in part it was based on the early rear engined design and was brutally ugly to my mind although others may differ.

Chris Hough

I lived in Oldham for many years and remember the problems the department had. Buses were sent to Halifax and other places to be repaired as well as by the Corporation. Some of them had to be withdrawn which necessitated the purchase if 16 vehicles, 8 from Sheffield, 4 from Bolton and 4 from Halifax. 427 PBU 927 was in fact a PD2/30. The ex Bolton vehicle pictured was numbered 472.

Eric Langley

Yorkshire Traction – Leyland Titan PD2 – VHE 193 – 1193

Yorkshire Traction - Leyland Titan PD2 - VHE 193 - 1193

Yorkshire Traction
1961
Leyland Titan PD2 
Roe H35/28F

Here we are in Huddersfield again on the road where all the non Corporation buses had there terminus, although the odd one did sneak in now and then. I think it was Lord Street and the building on the left is the Parish Church, this is where I think all the buses to surrounding towns i.e. Wakefield, Dewsbury and Barnsley for example started there journey.
Anyway this is a very interesting bus, I have titled it as a Leyland Titan PD2 as it was listed in my “British Bus Fleets” book but actually it was a re-bodied Leyland Tiger PS2/1.
I found in the Roe body list on the “Bus Lists on the web” website that the original Leyland Tiger registration was EVH 211, knowing that VH was an Huddersfield registration I thought I would try to find out who owned it originally. I ruled out the corporation as they were more into AEC single deckers, no way would it be ex Hanson they would have re-bodied it for themselves several times. Then I remembered that Yorkshire Traction were part owners of the Huddersfield based County Motors, so onto the “Huddersfield PTG” website and sure enough there it is EVH 211 fleet no 83 a 1949 Tiger PS2/1 with a Roe B34F body. If you would like to see what it looked like originally there is a link here you will have to scroll half way down the page to find it.

Tracky rebuilt and refurbished many PS1 and PS2 Tigers – so much that they merited new registration numbers. They were always referred to as Tigers, not Titans, after their rebuild and re-registration.

David Oldfield

YTC indeed did rebuild a significant number of obsolete half cab single decks, not all of which were for themselves – for example Stratford Blue had a similar bus to the one shown.
The chassis were, more accurately, built using PD2 chassis rails with running gear and other components salvaged from the donor vehicle.
YTC had an honourable tradition of rebuilding/re-bodying, as an example look no further than the preserved Tiger number 492 with its’ post-war body.
The last vehicles to be rebuilt were the three Leopards in NBC days – Numbers 153/4 and 386.
The first two were, in principle the same format as the PS2s i.e. the donor vehicles (ex Yorkshire Woollen in this case) were simply donors of components as the vehicles had updated chassis rails to PSU3E spec. They received Plaxton Supreme bodies with new registrations. Interestingly they had YTC chassis numbers. The 3rd vehicle in the exercise was very heavily rebuilt utilising the original chassis and body frame with updated running gear, it also gained a new registration.

Andrew

I worked for YTC when 153/4 were in for rebuild. The original chassis rails were retained, also no change to the O600 engine and keeping the original 4 speed gearbox made the outcome very predictable. There was no consideration given as to what type of service these buses would be used on. End result, underpowered and lack of top speed.

Trackyman

29/08/12 – 12:17

If ever there was a box on wheels then this was it. It must be amongst the top three ugliest buses ever. So bad were these that YTC adopted a modified livery for them to improve their looks but to no avail.
Similar conversion with NCME bodies were very attractive in contrast.

Chris Hough

29/08/12 – 14:55

I agree, Chris, but what are your other two? They certainly did Roe’s reputation no good at all. [People would see the name Roe, not realising it was a PRV design.]

David Oldfield

29/08/12 – 16:38

David my other personal two are Northern Counties Nottingham style bodies supplied to A1 Lytham and Stratford Blue and the ECW bodies supplied to South Yorks PTE complete with peaks fore and aft. I think Colchester also bought some like the Roe rebuilds how could they sink so low.

Chris Hough

29/08/12 – 18:56

I think the ECWs were, essentially, a SYPTE “design” improvement which (sorry, here I go again) ruined the balance and symmetry of the original. They also resulted in some atrocious blind spots which were cured by cutting holes in the pillars to provide better vision. Why on earth Colchester then bought them, goodness only knows. Did anyone else?

David Oldfield

13/05/15 – 06:50

I worked in the body shop at Yorkshire Traction for nearly 50 years from 1956. I had a hand in lifting the old single deck bodies off before the mechanics took over and did a full strip down. The Leyland PS1s were sent to Charles Roe and were fitted with light weight double deck bodies. They were fine for the first few years , but when the metalastic bearer end brackets became tired they creaked and groaned like an old sailing ship when cornering.The PD2s were sent to Northern Counties and the last batch went to Charles Roe, but were built to a design by Park Royal. They certainly looked a little strange. In later years on having passed my PSV all types driving test I had the pleasure of driving on service most of the Leyland conversions.I think of all the various types of buses I drove at Yorkshire Traction my favourite without doubt was the PD2.

Barrie Micklethwaite

18/06/15 – 16:45

To confirm the location, it is Lord Street, Huddersfield where most (all?) the Tracky and County routes terminated.

Tim Jackson

30/05/20 – 06:50

The comments about these re-bodied buses have made interesting reading, I drove these many times in the late 60`s and early 70`s, the crews called them “Banana Boxes”, among other things, and you certainly needed to be aware of what type of bus you were driving when it came to these, the body was very light, and when fully loaded they rolled alarmingly on bends, the Vacuum braking system needed thought too, nothing seemed to happen for ages when you pressed the brake, so stopping accurately needed advance planning to allow for they delay, like all the PD2s and PD3s, being half cab they were warm in winter, during the summer it was nice to ride about with the sliding cab door open, and the full window clipped back over the bonnet to get plenty of air, If memory serves me the PD1s had hinged doors and had to stay closed, but you could still open the window.

busman25

United Services – Leyland Titan PD2/3 – BCK 460


Photograph P Haywood

United Services
1947
Leyland Titan PD2/3
Burlingham L53R

A few days ago I received an email from a Mr Paul Haywood with a photo attached, below is the email, above is the photo.

“I have just come across your site, and noticed the article on United Services. Attached is a poor view of a United Services ex Ribble PD2/3 (?) with a Burlingham body, taken at Wakefield bus station sometime around 1969, but don’t know which of the three families owned the bus.”

“Perhaps one of your viewers could help?”

United Services was owned by three families but at times it was hard to tell just who owned what, I do hope somebody can supply the information Paul is wanting, if you know please leave a comment.
What I have managed to find out about this bus is that it was originally with Ribble Motor Services fleet number 2517 a Leyland Titan PD2/1 with a Brush L53R body. A batch of the original PD2/1s were re-bodied by Burlingham as L53R and converted to 8ft wide at the same time making them PD2/3s.
There is also to the left in the above photo a Guy Wulfrunion one of the forum members has been asking about them lately. If anybody could send me a photo of one I wouldn”t mind doing a little article about them, they were a bit different.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

BCK 460_fleetname

I can answer who owned the Titan.
It was Cooper Brothers. The clue is the United CB Services fleet name on the side of the bus. The Cooper Brothers fleet had “CB” inserted between “United” and “Services”. 
The WR & P Bingley fleet had a different fleet name style with “United” directly over the “Services” name. The “U” and the “D” of “United” were oversized so that the “Services” name fitted in between underneath. I hope that helps.
I was brought up in a village called Crofton. The United fleet ran at the edge of the village via Doncaster Road into Wakefield. I have some memories of the double deckers however as I was born in 1961 my memory is far clearer with vehicles from the 1970’s and 1980’s, most notably the three Plaxton Derwent bodied Lepoards (that had loads of character) that Bingleys used and the Panther Cub and two Bedfords that Cooper Brothers used.

Mark B

I have since discovered that it started life as a PD1A with a Brush body in 1947. In 1955 it was rebodied by Burlingham and widened to become a PD2/3. It was bought by Coopers in 1965 and withdrawn (presumed scrapped) in 1972. Thanks to John Kaye for this information.

Paul Haywood

31/12/11 – 07:35

I can confirm that the CB does indeed stand for Cooper Brothers. My Grandad was Lawrence Lee Cooper and his brother Walter Lee Cooper. Their association with the Bingleys was very close as Dot Bingley, Phillis Bingleys daughter was my Godmother.

Vicky Cooper

31/12/11 – 09:28

Can I be a pain in the neck? I also thought that, when they sold them – and Ribble had a lot of them – these interesting rebuilds were given 7.4 engines in exchange for the 0.600s.

David Oldfield

31/12/11 – 09:28

I’m grateful to all correspondents in this topic, as I’ve learned much that I didn’t know about this fascinating trio of joint operators. I believe, open to correction, that Bingley’s had considerably more mileage than the other two, and little ever seems to be written about Everett the third partner. I worked at Caldaire/Arriva in Pontefract with Mr. Bill Bingley who was a relation of Phillis. Earlier in my career, at Samuel Ledgard of Leeds, we had two identical ex Ribble rebuilds BCK 427/441 – fascinating and very sound vehicles they were too !!
Also in my Arriva times we had a school special from Crofton High School and so I became acquainted with the A638 and Mark B’s village in the 1990s/2000s. In the 1960s, when working in the traffic office at Wallace Arnold’s, we had frequent communication with Mrs Phillis Bingley who seemed to be able to conjure up incredible numbers of her coaches and drivers for hiring in at our busy times. This was to a Leeds resident like me a fascinating era – and area – with which to be involved and I wouldn’t have missed any of it for the World.

Chris Youhill

31/12/11 – 11:15

A very interesting question from David about the possible engine exchange and something I haven’t heard before. I too would like to know because I travelled on this vehicle, it would have been around 1970/71, one Saturday afternoon and I had a short ride from Hemsworth to South Kirkby but it’s so long ago now that I have no recollection of the engine sound! Incidentally, one of the un-rebuilt examples, BCK 440 with it’s original Brush body ended up as a mobile shop in the village where I was born and was often parked on the street where I lived, the registration has stuck in my mind ever since!

Chris Barker

31/12/11 – 15:00

BCK 423-460 was a batch of 38 Leyland PD1A/Brush L27/26R delivered to Ribble (2480-2517) in 1947. In 1955, 22 of them (including BCK 427, 441 and 460, but excluding BCK 440 mentioned above) were rebodied with Burlingham L27/26RD eight feet wide bodies. The chassis remained at their original 7ft 6in width – the extra 3 inch side overhang can be seen at the wheel arches on the photo. In 1958/9, 21 of those 22 had their 7.4 engines replaced by O.600 engines, all but one coming from withdrawn vehicles, to which were fitted the displaced 7.4 engines before sale. (Info from PSV Circle Ribble Fleet History)

Dave Williamson

01/01/12 – 07:12

W R P Bingley had a regular works service to Blakeley’s Boot Protectors (segs in local parlance) in Armley Leeds This involved a number of Yeates bodied coaches up to five in the sixties.

Chris Hough

03/01/12 – 06:53

Thank you to all for these most interesting postings, I travelled to school in Wakefield from the mid-sixties onwards, very frequently on the United Service as they were more interesting than West Riding. Many of these journeys were on ‘BCK’, often very full! It probably worked harder for Coopers than it ever did for Ribble.
I recall the Cooper’s fleet was for several years BCK 460, CCK 354 (ex-Ribble all-Leyland PD2) and MDT 220 (ex-Doncaster Roe-bodied Regent III). The Leylands seemed to be the mainstay of the fleet, doing most of the Wakefield-Doncaster workings, and the AEC spent more time on the peak-hour short journeys Wakefield to Hemsworth or South Elmsall. The photo is 1969 or later, as hiding behind BCK is EWX 819 H, Bedford VAM / Willowbrook which (I think) replaced CCK 354.
Yes, Bingleys seemed to be the dominant member of the group. The basic Wakefield-Doncaster service required three buses, logically one per member, but there were many duplicates and short workings and Bingleys seemed to provide more than one-third of those. My parents used to say that there was previously another member called Granter’s, so possibly Bingley’s had taken over Granter’s share ?? It would be fascinating to learn how the duties were shared out, if anyone has any info? It would also be great to see a fleet history for all the members, if one exists ?

Roger Townend

04/01/12 – 06:52

As with many operators, Ribble was a rich source of vehicles for United Services. The ones I have record of are BCK 438, another of the type pictured above with Everett, White Ladies BRN 281 (Burlingham) and DCK 213 (East Lancs) All Leyland PD2’s CCK 354 and DRN 268 and Brush bodied PD2’s CCK 646 and CCK 653. There were also utilities ACK 755 (Daimler) and ACK 819 (Guy) The vehicles of Everett seen to have been rather anonymous, Bingley’s were usually well turned out with the fleet name as shown above whilst Cooper Bros, particularly when in the two tone blue and cream were quite impressive. One interesting connection with the recent postings about Blue Bus Services and W Gash is that Bingley’s apparently also had a Burlingham Seagull bodied Daimler Freeline. I’ve never seen a picture of it, does anyone have one?

Chris Barker

02/05/12 – 08:46

I recall back in the late fifties or early sixties that whichever of the operating partners of United Services (possibly Everetts) that operated from the Kinsley depot near Hemsworth used to leave vehicles parked outside overnight, and, come the morning, rabbits had to be chased off the busses prior to them entering service.

Mick Taylor

02/05/12 – 11:16

Mick, the Kinsley Depot was the headquarters of W.R. & P. Bingley and was eventually taken over and used by Metro/Yorkshire Rider.

Chris Youhill

02/05/12 – 11:17

Nice story, Mick. Those who wanted a nice rabbit for dinner, no doubt caught the best one, before chasing off the others!

Chris Hebbron

02/05/12 – 17:23

Mick and Chris H – the reason for the presence of the rabbits has just occurred to me – what else could one expect at premises called Hunter’s Farm Garage, Kinsley ??

Chris Youhill

03/05/12 – 08:00

I’m intrigued by Dave Williamson’s information about these vehicles being fitted with 0.600 engines from withdrawn vehicles. If this was done in 1958/9, it would seem a bit early for anything with the post-war 9.8ltr engine to be withdrawn. I wonder what the donors were, PS2 coaches perhaps?

Chris Barker

03/05/12 – 08:52

They’d been chased by the greyhounds (whippets?) from Kinsley dog track!

Joe

03/05/12 – 14:06

The answer to Chris Barker’s question is that 19 of those 21 O.600 engines came from 1946/7 PD1s, which had themselves been re-engined in 1948/9. Their original 7.4 litre engines were fitted to pre-war Leyland TS and LZ vehicles, replacing their original petrol engines. Of the remaining two O.600 engines, one came from a 1948 PD2, which was then withdrawn, and the other is described as a spare engine.

Dave Williamson

10/10/12 – 09:04

These Ribble rebuilds never cease to inspire comment. Does anyone have a copy of the book ’52 Years Of Ribble’, by Tom Collinge? Having once owned a copy of the book myself and knowing the detail into which the fleet history goes, I can’t help but think that the question of which engines went into which buses from which would be well and truly settled.
If one engine came from a 1948 PD2 which was then withdrawn this could have only been 2648, the only Burlingham bus-bodied (as opposed to coach-bodied) PD2 Ribble operated. It was the first PD2 to be withdrawn, going before the Brush lowbridges 2661-91, which themselves went probably a couple of years earlier than slightly older Leyland-bodied examples.
One notion which I must contest is Dave Williamson’s assertion that the difference between the chassis width and body width can be seen in the above photo, since the position of the wheels relative to the bodywork looks to me just as it would on any 8-foot wide bus. The chassis width would have remained at 7’6″, yes, with the new body mounted on outriggers, but both axles have definitely been replaced. If you want to see what an 8′ wide body looks like on a 7’6″ axle, refer to a shot of Bradford trolleys 703-39 (and possibly others, I’m not sure) which were rebodied in the late fifties/early sixties, being fitted with new front axles but retaining the 7’6″ rear ones.
Now I’m really going to set the cat amongst the pigeons and assert that, in the late 1960s (which was the only period in which I came into contact with the United operations) the Bingley depot at Kinsley was used purely as a coach garage, and the buses were accommodated at a separate depot at Upton. I’m pretty sure that WYPTE acquired only the Kinsley depot, the implication being that Upton closed in Bingley days.
Paul, when you saw ‘Ma’ Bingley and her daughter in the traffic office, was it at a coach or bus depot (or both)? And were you at Kinsley, or Upton?

David Call

18/10/12 – 17:25

Thanks David C for pointing out my mistake in claiming the rebodied chassis remained 7’6″ wide -“should have gone to a well known chain of opticians” springs to mind! New 8′ axles were fitted prior to being rebodied by Burlingham. The PD2 that donated its engine was indeed 2648, as you surmise.

David Williamson

19/10/12 – 06:22

David C – sorry for the late reply, but I’ve only just seen your question. I suspect it must have been Kinsley as this was where we knew “Ma” was based. The other night we had a talk in our village Institute by a local historian who, at the end of a very interesting talk on “Keighley between the wars” acclaimed – “Forget official history books written by academics, real history lies with ordinary folk and their memories!” How true – that’s if we can remember things!

Paul Haywood

20/10/12 – 10:22

BRN 281_lr

It’s been interesting to follow the discussion concerning United Services, particularly the recent Burlingham PD1 debate. Thought you may be interested to see another ex Ribble Leyland in the fleet seen here at Doncaster Marshgate bus station.

Andrew Charles

21/10/12 – 08:14

BCK 437_lr

Here are three more of these popular Ribble PD1 to PD2 rebodies, this time with Ezra Laycock of Barnoldswick, photographed by me at their depot in 1966 or 1967. BCK 437 & 452 with an unidentified third one just sneaking into view on the left. (Sorry about the dodgy quality but it took Photoshop and I over an hour to get it to this state !)

John Stringer

21/10/12 – 19:14

The bus just in the shot would have been Laycock 75 (BCK 428), the other two being numbered 74 & 76 respectively. After acquisition (in 1966, I think) these three buses comprised Laycock’s entire double-deck fleet until joined in 1968 by ex-Ribble 1357 (ECK 927), a lowbridge Leyland-bodied PD2/12, upon which I took my psv test in November 1970. Although I worked for Laycock’s for about six months after taking my test, the only one of the buses illustrated above I drove was BCK 452, and this only on two/three occasions. This was because its regular driver (fitter Philip Baker) only had a midweek day off once every three weeks! I couldn’t drive BCK 437 (usually driven by Roy Laycock, who also had a midweek day off every three weeks) since the driver’s seat was jammed in its position, and I couldn’t comfortably reach the pedals! What a disappointment. The third rebuild, BCK 428, had already gone by the time I started with Laycock’s, having been inadvertently driven under the (very) low bridge adjacent to Nelson railway station. It was replaced by ex-City Of Oxford 968 (968 CWL), a Regent V/MCW (becoming Laycock 83), which I also drove on two/three occasions. Of these four double-deckers (Laycock 74/6, 80/3) at least three survived up to the takeover by Pennine (not sure about the fourth), 74 later being privately preserved (in Ribble colours), and 83 subsequently operating for Wild’s, of Barnoldswick.
Anyone know what ultimately happened to BCK 437? The last I heard (which is quite a few years ago now) its status was not known.

David Call

11/11/12 – 17:08

Between 1954 and 1956 I was a pupil at Wakefield College and had United Services school contract to travel between Hemsworth and Wakefield. I don’t have any details of Reg Nos but I do remember the Types of buses used in the era. The three companies involved must have had some kind of rota because they appeared to change a couple of times each week. The most popular double deckers used by all three companies in those days were were Guy Arabs with utility bodies, and in winter freezing cold. Bingleys also ran a Leyland TS7/8, a very fast machine for its age but equally as cold in winter as the Guys. I think it was in 1955 when Bingleys acquired a low bridge Daimler, this was a superb machine compared with what we were used to. The best thing about it was it had an excellent heating system. After leaving college I joined the West Riding Automobile Co, and later moved on to the Yorkshire Traction Co. The job allowed me to drive all the different types of vehicles that I had admired in the past. Happy days.

Barrie Micklethwaite

12/11/12 – 12:00

The United Services only had three partners, Bingley, Cooper Bros and Everett – The closest working relationship was between Bingley and Cooper Bros – Ma Bingley (Phillis) was based at Kingsley whilst Frank Bingley was based at Upton. The Coopers, Lawrence, Walter and Lols son Austin was based in South Kirkby depot opposite the Old Mill.

Vicky Cooper

02/04/13 – 09:55

A slight correction needs to be made to my reference above to Ribble PD2 2648. I could have said that it was Ribble’s only Burlingham-bodied PD2/3, or Ribble’s only PD2 with a Burlingham body to the same style as those on the PD1/3 ‘White Ladies’ (see pic of BRN281, above), or their only PD2 with a lowbridge Burlingham body. There were, of course, later Burlingham-bodied PD2/12s (1431-75). There’s a nice photo of 2648 in its Ribble days here www.sct61.org.uk/rl2648  (click on ‘higher resolution’ – and note the similarity of the bodywork to that on the adjacent East Lancs-bodied ‘White Lady’ PD2). It subsequently ran for a few years with Carruthers, of New Abbey, Dumfriesshire.

David Call

05/12/13 – 16:01

Regarding the United Services debate and the operators W.R. & P. Bingley, Cooper Bros’ and Everett’s
I have seven black and white photographs of some of these fleets which I obtained with others from an ad in an Ian Allan publication in the mid to late 60’s.
They are of :
Bingley’s UWT 875 AEC Regent V in the identical location of 876 shown parked up in Wakefield bus station.
LTO 10 Daimler previously referred to in the Northern Doncaster Bus Station.
DCK 213 Ex Ribble about to leave Wakefield Bus Station.
Cooper Bros’ CCK 646 Ex Ribble Leyland on the stand for Doncaster in Wakefield.
MDT 220 AEC Regent III? Outbound from Wakefield passing Woolworths at the top of Kirkgate and a Daimler single decker.
HWT 48 on the stand in Doncaster.
Now the remaining two have no distinguishing marks and therefore I wonder if these were Everett’s? They are Ex Ribble Leyland BCK 438 unloading in Wakefield Bus Station and Regent III? AJX 243 on the stand in Doncaster.

CRE 93X
CRE 93X_2

The plot widens with another photo in the batch which shows a Dennis coach CRE93? Operated by S. Bingley Luxury Tours, of 53 Westfield Road, Hemsworth. Presumably a relation?

John Ramskill

05/12/13 – 16:53

AJX 243 was owned by W. & H. Everett. It had been new to Hebble (No.28, later 228) in 1948, who withdrew it in 11/59 and sold it to dealer Frank Cowley of Salford. Everett’s purchased it from them in 3/60, and withdrew it in 8/64.

John Stringer

13/06/15 – 06:43

Does anyone have a photograph of the heroine of this tale Phyllis “Ma” Bingley?

Willy Coupar

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

20/03/18 – 16:40

Further to Chris Barker (04/01/12 – 06:52), I haven’t managed to find a shot of Bingley’s Daimler Freeline (LWY906) but here’s one of Everett’s LWT704, Freeline/Harrington, new to Kitchin’s of Pudsey. www.flickr.com/photos/

David Call

21/03/18 – 05:42

David C, what a magnificent beast it was too, even though it was probably in it’s latter days. Many thanks for your link which contains a wealth of other fascinating vehicles and operators as well.

Chris Barker

22/03/18 – 05:58

I’m still going round the houses and not quite getting there. Here’s a shot of LWT704 when with Kichin’s (note the common mis-spelling).. www.na3t.org/road/photo/HuA0434
And one of Bingley’s KWY904, AEC Regal IV/Yeates.. www.na3t.org/road/photo/HuA0451

David Call