It’s 27th April 1968 and Sheffield 713 turns from Leopold Street terminus into West Street on another trip out into the country at Rivelin Dams. 713 was one of the batch of 56 (the largest single batch of buses purchased by Sheffield) delivered in March/April 1954 to replace trams on the Ecclesall – City – Middlewood route. Apart from accident victim 707, all the batch were withdrawn in 1967 and 1968 so 713 had only a short service life left by the time of this picture. Nowadays Sheffield Supertram runs through the middle of this picture on its way to Middlewood but via a different route that 713 and its sister vehicles would have taken countless times during their 13/14 year life.
April 1968 – my last few months in Sheffield as a student and I well remember these PD2s. Service 54 ran to a reservoir/control room just over the border in Derbyshire but was nevertheless a Corporation A route rather than a Joint Omnibus Committee B route, as was generally the case with cross-boundary services. The terminus was at the Norfolk Arms, now no more.
Geoff Kerr
13/09/11 – 17:00
Can anybody please enlighten me on the road layout at this point in 1968. On the face of it, there is a roundabout with yellow flowers but behind PD2 No. 713 is a rear engined machine seemingly turning right into Church Street ‘wrong way’. Also, there is a ‘No Entry’ sign at the Leopold Street corner.
John Darwent
14/09/11 – 07:43
Would that be The Norfolk Arms at Ringinglow Geoff ?
Roger Broughton
14/09/11 – 07:44
You’re not the only one who is intrigued, John. I was in the fourth form at school along the route of 713 when this was taken and cannot remember this odd layout – which is at the confluence of Leopold Street (to right), West Street (where 713 is entering), Church Street (where early Atlantean is heading) and Town Head Street (off to the left). The spire in the background is Sheffield Cathedral. The Norfolk Arms was always well within the city limits. Even though they are different and wider now, there was always a great deal of countryside on the south and west side. In the post 1974 Sheffield, half the area is countryside, a third of it in the Peak District National Park.
David Oldfield
14/09/11 – 07:45
A one way loop had been introduced earlier in the 1960s comprising Leopold St, Church St and Fargate. Coming along Leopold St, traffic could turn left into West Street(as 713), right (wrong side of the roundabout)into Church St(as the Atlantean) or go straight ahead down Townhead St. Similarly traffic inbound on West St could use the roundabout in the conventional way and access Church St merging with the loop traffic from Leopold St. Sounds complicated written down but hope this assists.
Ian Wild
14/09/11 – 07:47
Nice buses these, but to me they always seemed slow and ponderous compared to the SWE-registered Regents with the same style of Weymann body, except for the outswept panels. The AEC’s had that barking exhaust, and would come tearing out of the platforms in the bus station on their way to Hackenthorpe and Hemsworth, making Pond Street sound more like a racing car circuit than a municipal bus station. They had a smarter style of wheel nut ring as well, but I’d better not get going on that topic or there’ll be no end to it. What a splendid city for buses though, in those days.
Dave Careless
14/09/11 – 16:56
The Norfolk Arms mentioned above was on Manchester Road. The Norfolk Arms at Ringinglow is still very much in existence.
Stephen Bloomfield
14/09/11 – 16:56
What can I do, Dave, but agree with you. I had far more contact with the Regent IIIs than the PD2s – and did not regret it for one minute.
David Oldfield
15/09/11 – 09:27
Thank you for the explanation Ian. I worked in George Street from 1961 through 1964 but cannot for the life of me remember the one-way loop. Probably attentions towards the fairer sex had taken over at that time. Ah well.
John Darwent
16/09/11 – 09:26
John, I think the one way loop came in later than 1964 which is why you wouldn’t recall it.
Ian Wild
17/09/11 – 08:04
Thanks Stephen, yes I know, we often call in when been out walking.
Roger Broughton
18/09/11 – 06:10
Photographs of this batch of buses always make me think of Endcliffe Park in Sheffield; you could see and hear them through the trees at the edge of the park, running along Rustlings Road every few minutes back and forth to Fulwood on the busy 88 service. I remember going to the park on one of these one summer afternoon with my mother in the early sixties, and on getting off the bus, seeing for the first time in a toy shop window on Ecclesall Road an ‘Exide’ version of the Dinky Toys double decker. I pleaded for one, but it wasn’t in the equation, as despite whining and moaning all afternoon, it was apparent that an ice cream was as good as it was going to get! About four years ago, I finally bought one on eBay; it didn’t have a box, but it was considerably more than the modern day equivalent of 4/2 !!
Dave Careless
23/10/11 – 07:43
Hi very interesting site, much enjoyed. On this page, however, there is an error The Route 54 Rivelin Dams ran out of Pinfold Lane. The Route 51 Lodge Moor ran from Leopold Street. Route 51 was my first route as a rookie driver. The buses on that route during the 60s were AECs and on my first ever trip I was unable to get the handbrake off. I never experienced an AEC in driving school and was unaware that it was necessary to put ones foot down on the footbrake in order to release it. See this photo of mine of a PD2 I had driven to Rivelin Dams – //www.geograph.org.uk/
Dave Hitchborne
23/10/11 – 08:10
Sorry to argue, Dave, but the 51 and 50 left from Pinfold Lane – not far from Scout HQ and shop. I was a regular on the 51 from a young age, visiting family.
David Oldfield
04/12/11 – 07:46
Did the 54 later only go to Wyming Brook?
James Walker
15/03/12 – 09:30
Sorry, but I’m going to argue the point on this till the cows come home and my wife/clippie and I remember the Dore 50 and the Rivelin Dams 54 running from Pinfold Street and the Lodge Moor 51 ran from Leopold Street. Another reason for remembering the 51 running from Leopold Street is that it went from town via West Street and came back via Division Street and Barker’s Pool. On one occasion I was waiting to turn out of Barker’s Pool onto Leopold Street with a sports car in front when the driver of a Walkley 95 waived us both to proceed into Leopold Street. The sports car set off and I followed waiving and thanking the 95 driver when I suddenly realised that the sports car had stopped around the corner at the pedestrian crossing and I was inches away from it when I stamped on the brakes. The bus stopped, but my reserve conductor was hurled to the front of the bus where I heard him whack the bulkhead behind me. He then spent about 10 mins in Leopold Street instructing me on his knowledge of the English language. I believe his name was Abdul Roafe and I have a photo of him.
Dave Hitchborne
16/03/12 – 12:45
Regarding the debate on the 50, 51 and 54, I have had a look in the STD Timetable and the following is stated;
October 1951 T/T 50 Departs City (Trippett Lane) * 51 City (Pinfold Street) 54 and 55 City (Leopold Street)
May 1960 T/T 50 Departs City (Pinfold Street) * 51 City (Pinfold Street) 54 and 55 City (Leopold Street)
So, apart from the 50 moving a few yards to align with the 51 at Pinfold Street, they all remained more or less the same during this time scale. If there were subsequent alterations in the 1960’s, I can’t say as I don’t have the records but it seems that, at the moment, David O is ahead on points! Perhaps someone has a timetable to confirm departure points and routes taken in subsequent years.
John Darwent
17/03/12 – 06:22
Thank you for your defence, John. On reading Dave H’s post, something occurred to me. The 51 eventually became a cross city service to Gleadless/Herdings. At that point it would have travelled along Leopold Street from Gleadless to Lodge Moor. It would then go down Townhead Street and turn up broad Lane. In the other direction it left Broad Lane to end up going down Trippett Lane.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
18/03/12 – 07:46
Regarding Sheffield Corporation buses in the 1950s does anybody remember a bizarre religious sect who took advertisement space with such warnings as ‘The Wages of Sin is Death’ and other warnings. Bringing the subject right up to date I notice that here at Lothian Buses we have a number of buses with the advertisement ‘Try Praying’.
Philip Carlton
19/03/12 – 09:18
Interesting observation Philip. Is the advertisement aimed at Edinburgh citizens in general, or just passengers waiting for buses provided by one of Lothian RT’s major competitors do you think?
I note with some surprise that Stockport Corporation does not feature in the list of operators on the website, so perhaps this picture of two of Stockport’s excellently proportioned all Leyland PD2s might redress this omission. I believe that I took this photograph, which dates from 1969, somewhere in the Manchester area. I have no doubt that our Forum experts will identify the location. No 293, EDB 547, and its fellow parked behind it (No.294, I think) was a Leyland PD2/1 with Leyland H30/26R bodywork delivered in 1951, and was representative of a batch of 44 of such buses taken into stock from 1949 onwards. They were preceded by some 40 Crossley DD42s, all with Crossley bodies, and the Corporation’s experience of these machines was such that the Leylands were chosen for the 1949-51 deliveries. However, Crossley, whose post war factory was in Errwood Park, used the “local employment” argument to secure the subsequent order for 24 DD42/7 buses with Crossley H30/26R bodies, much against the wishes of the Transport Department. Thereafter, however, Leylands reigned supreme in the Stockport fleet. No 293 passed to the new SELNEC PTE in 1969, no doubt ultimately to suffer the appalling indignity of being repainted into the truly ghastly orange and white garb of that organisation. In any list of the worst bus liveries of all time, the SELNEC effort must surely rank near the top, even against strong challenges from the present day privatised crop of aesthetic abominations.
Could we have a league table of hideous liveries? South Yorkshire’s bilious yellow & red was pretty bad- Yorkshire Rider wasn’t wonderful as isn’t Fussy First either, but the award surely goes to Lincs Roadcar/Yorkshire Traction (did both have it?) low floor purple and yellow. For sheer design boredom, we have to go back to NBC who also managed to pick some pretty horrid shades, which takes some doing in red and green.
Joe
06/10/11 – 07:13
This photograph is taken in early SELNEC days (they have SELNEC legal lettering). These were the first of a variety of Stockport buses to work from the former SHMD depot in Stalybridge. They were most of the remaining Leyland-bodied PD2s from Stockport – 293, 297-9 and 303-306 (EDB 547/51-3/7-60). These ran for a couple of years and survived to be given their SELNEC fleet numbers (5913/7-9/23-6). However, for some time two of them (297/8) received SHMD fleet numbers 51/2, using standard SHMD transfers. Remarkably, 52 was fully repainted in SHMD green. (It is perhaps worth noting here that Stockport 302 was transferred to Oldham and repainted in Oldham pommard and cream, in this instance initially being numbered 5202 as if it was a former Oldham bus. This was soon changed to the correct 5922.) The renumbering took place, from memory in early 1971 so I suspect your shot is from 1970. It is in Stalybridge bus station. For comparison there is a photo of my own on this site in almost exactly the same location at this link. Whilst I understand your sentiments about the orange livery as it didn’t generally sit very well on older buses, I think it served its political (i.e. neutral) objectives and orange became very successfully synonymous with Manchester area buses for many years.
David Beilby
06/10/11 – 07:14
Quite a number of this batch were sold to Berresfords of Cheddleton and were a familiar sight at Longton Bus Station still in Stockport livery having worked on the service from Leek.
Ian Wild
All Leyland PD2s rank among my all time favourites. I never really came across these, despite being a student in Manchester from 1971 – 1975 (and then ’til 1976 in Warrington). Living in South Manchester I was very aware of the Stockport East Lancs PD2s (and the Crossley PD2s as well). What immediately struck one was how superbly turned out and maintained they were in stark contrast to the Manchester fleet. The “all red” Manchester livery with painted window surrounds must have been an all time low – pictures of the earlier Red/Cream looked so much better.
David Oldfield
07/10/11 – 13:25
Manchester buses in the early 1960’s (pre-Bennett era) always gave me the impression they were painted by some sort of dipping process. Everything apart from the tyres and glass was red! The fleet at this time really had a careworn appearance. On the subject of Crossleys, the company seemed to get a lot of business on the basis of the ‘local jobs’ card in the early post-war era. Not only Stockport but Manchester and Oldham took large deliveries and one detects local politicians overriding the wishes of the professionals when these decisions were made.
Philip Halstead
08/10/11 – 05:22
I read recently the phrase “distress purchasing” referring to what people buy that they can afford, or what is available, as opposed to what they really wanted (eg Korean or Communist block cars of time gone by). Just about all post war Crossleys were distress purchases. People bought whatever was available in a bid to buy sufficient vehicles to replace those worn out by war time privation. Very few chose to buy Crossley. It is well documented that Stuart Pilcher (Manchester) always wanted to buy AECs but the Manchester Councillors always blocked it, insisting on Crossleys because they were local. Sheffield’s post war Crossleys were all transferred from orders made by other authorities – their preferred AECs, not to mention Weymann bodies, not available in sufficient numbers.
David Oldfield
11/10/11 – 05:23
I really must spring to the defence of the original SELNEC livery. At the time I didn’t like it either, since it obliterated all those splendid municipal liveries, and there’s no doubt it looked pretty awful when applied to some older types, and when it was badly weathered. However, if you look at the SELNEC Standards, for which it was designed, the proportions of the paint perfectly complement the body style. Looking back forty years on, it was light years ahead of the ghastly insipid schemes adopted by all the other PTEs and NBC, and was a real trend-setter. And (whisper it softly) a few of the older buses actually looked quite well in it: Stockport’s East-Lancs PDs being a notable case.
David Jones
11/10/11 – 05:24
General opinion seems to be that there was nothing wrong with the postwar Crossley except its engine. The same could also be said of that other postwar “distress purchase” the Daimler CVD6, necessitated mainly by a shortage of Gardner engines. Birmingham numbered both types among its tin-front standards, but by the time those Crossleys were delivered, AEC had purchased Crossley and sorted out its engine problems. I once met someone from Birmingham who had worked on both types, and he said that the Crossleys were far superior to the Daimlers!
Peter Williamson
11/10/11 – 12:03
The engine is rather important, though. Sheffield had some distress purchased CV6s as well. Again, the engine was rather critical. [Earlier posts on this web-site tell of the Daimler engines’ weaknesses better than I.] Having said that, all that Peter says is true.
David Oldfield
11/10/11 – 12:05
Certainly the basic Crossley chassis was well engineered, but in addition to the engine, which AEC improved, but could never make into a really sound unit, Crossley steering was always exceedingly heavy, and the three axle Dominion trolleybuses were nigh on impossible in this respect. The characteristic that emerges from Crossley, apparently due in no small part to the personality of Managing Director Arthur Hubble, is the refusal to listen to or learn from customers.
Roger Cox
09/04/12 – 06:42
I agree with the defence of the Selnec livery. I actually quite liked the original orange and white and some buses looked good in it, the Mancunians and Selnec Standards particularly so. I also thought some of Manchesters late batches of PD2s in the 36xx and 37xx series suited it too, in an odd way. I didn’t like the later GMT livery which incorporated brown however.
David Pomfret
13/05/12 – 08:39
I used these buses regularly in the 1960s on the 92 route mainly but also on the 74 and 40. The Leylands were superb so the drivers of the underdog Crossleys often needed to prove that actually they were better. However sometimes from the back of the depot a couple of Guy Arabs emerged. These had protruding radiators and wartime blackout blinds in their rear upstairs windows. It was almost a privilege to get a ride on one of these. They all seemed like they would last for ever but they are probably all gone now.
Malcolm
12/06/12 – 18:56
As a youngster in Stockport during the 1950’s I was always struck by the different sounds which came from the Leylands and the Crossleys. The Leylands seem to have a ‘breathy, wheezing’ sound, whereas the Crossleys would give out a ‘groaning, grinding’ sound… That said, there was nothing better than to stand at the roadside and hear (were they the last batch bought by Stockport??) the newer Crossleys on the ‘flagship’ 33 route from Manchester to Romiley – a limited stop route where much higher than normal speeds were evident between stops which were sometimes almost a mile apart…. A bit off track, and apologies, but I wonder if anyone has any pictures or remembers the rather unique ten Leylands purchased by Stockport which had Longwell Green bodies ? I think that they were perhaps the last vehicles ever purchased by Stockport, and eventually replaced the Crossleys on the 33 route before passing over to SELNEC. Vivid memories of using them, although I’ve never been able to track down a picture of them – even here we don’t list Longwell Green amongst the body builders and maybe Stockport’s were the only examples in municipal service.
Stuart C
13/06/12 – 08:06
Stuart there are shots of the Longwell Green PD2s on www.sct61.org.uk dating from 1960 these unusual buses always looked very ECW in appearance to my mind. From 1962 Stockport bought exposed radiator East Lancs bodied PD2s and finally PD3s with front entrance bodywork. They actually ordered Bristol VRs but these were written off in the East Lancs fire.
Chris Hough
13/06/12 – 08:07
Stuart, I’d forgotten about the Longwell Greens until you mentioned them. [I was a student and then worked in the South Manchester area from 1971 – 1980.] The last Leylands for Stockport were PD3/East Lancs in 1968/9. Longwell Green, I believe came from the Bristol area but were very popular for a time with Newport (South Wales) Corporation.
David Oldfield
13/06/12 – 08:10
Ref the comment about Municipal operation of Longwell Green bodies. There were certainly LG bodies on Leylands at Newport and from memory a number of the smaller Welsh municipalities also used this bodybuilder.
Andrew
13/06/12 – 08:11
Stuart…Might this be a picture of the Leyland/Longwell Green buses that you recall? It is quite a handsome design with interesting and unusual details. //www.flickr.com/
Richard Leaman
13/06/12 – 08:12
I have a couple of photographs of these Longwell Green bodies online and visible here and here Both show these buses working from Oldham in 1973, but still in Stockport livery. I don’t believe any ran in service in orange but many of the batch did get the orange livery as they became training buses, in which role they ended up being seen all over Manchester. The EDB Crossleys would have been more lively than the earlier examples as they had the later and more effective downdraught engine – probably why they were used on that service. Longwell Green were based in Bristol and did quite a bit of rebuilding as well as new bodies. They seemed to find a market in South Wales with Newport in particular buying a lot of (exposed-radiator) PD2s with their bodies. The last I’m aware of were two 1966 AEC Regent Vs with front-entrance bodies for Pontypridd Urban District Council in 1966.
David Beilby
13/06/12 – 16:58
Thanks everyone….And particularly to Chris for his link to PJA 913….I’ve spent a couple of years trying to find a photo of this batch, and I’d have to say that having seen this one last night they were as elegant as my memory would have it….Different enough to be different enough, if you know what I mean….Does anyone have any idea why, out of the blue, Stockport chose Longwell Green ?? Also on the same page is a wonderful picture of EDB 578, one of the final Crossleys that I was talking about – and wouldn’t you know, operating the 33 route from Manchester to Romiley and ( on this picture ) Greave….I can’t remember if the 33 route was a joint operation with Manchester, perhaps it was, but there also used to be the older Manchester Crossleys which always operated the Manchester only 109 route from Reddish via Gorton to Manchester City Centre….Memories of taking both routes on the same day and even as a youngster being aware of the difference in acceleration and speed between the older Manchester vehicles and the then cream-of-the-fleet Stockport vehicles…. Terrific memories….
Stuart C
14/06/12 – 07:38
Sorry to wander away from Stockport Corporation a little but there’s something odd about the vehicle in Richard’s link. The date of the Longwell Green body is given as 1955 and I took it to be a PD2 at first glance but the registration, EBX, was issued in March 1948. The radiator suggests that it could be a re-bodied PD1. The date of the body would be correct, it’s certainly not a 1948 body. There was an article on here a while ago which I think had a link to a James fleet history but I’m unable to find it now. Does anyone have the details about this vehicle?
Chris Barker
26/09/12 – 06:57
Stockport ordered Longwell Green bodies due to price and the demise of its traditional bodybuilders- Crossley and Leyland. Apart from the English Electric bodied pre-war Tigers, and the wartime Guy Arabs (in that instance Stockport didn’t have a choice) the fleet was traditionally Leyland and Crossley bodied. From conversations with people in the works and depot in the 1960s the bodies were excellent but no repeat order was made as Stockport’s manager, Eric Baxter,was due to retire in 1962 and wanted to start a fleet renewal policy with a standard vehicle, before he went. He thus ordered PD2s again but, needing continuity of supply and the possibility of large (for Stockport) orders by the middle of the decade, he needed a larger builder than Longwell Green which mixed bus building with its main occupation of van building. Frank Brimelow replaced Eric Baxter and by 1963 had worked with East Lancs to refine a very traditional body to Stockport’s needs, a lineage that lasted until SELNEC took over. Ironically East Lancs couldn’t cope with Stockport’s needs by the middle of the decade and had to sub let one order to its Neepsend subsidiary. There are comments that the Longwell Green bodies have an ECW look. This may be so but the story I was told was that the frames were from Burlingham who ceased double deck production in 1960. Stockport had wanted Burlingham to tender as Baxter greatly admired the Manchester Burlingham bodies delivered from the mid 50s. As Stockport had not needed new vehicles between the all Leyland and all Crossley buses of the early 1950s, his only chance to order Burlingham bodies came with the 1957 order for PD2s which higher authority insisted was given to Crossley – a bad decision as Crossley closed down before the order was completed and some of the bodies were finished by the Corporation.
Phil Blinkhorn
26/09/12 – 16:01
Chris B: Well spotted – EBX 663 was a rebodied PS1. According to the PSV Circle fleet history of South Wales Transport, who took over James in 1962, it was new in 1948 to James; in 1954, it was converted to PD1 spec including new chassis frames, by Western Welsh at their Ely Works, then rebodied by Longwell Green. No details of the original bodywork,unfortunately.
Bob Gell
26/09/12 – 17:23
New chassis frames – new body – sounds a bit like Paddy’s original brush, or Caesar’s original penknife. (Accountant’s rebuilds as certain classes of Great Western Railway steam locos were laughingly called!)
Stephen Ford
03/10/12 – 06:12
PHIL… Thanks for the detailed info/explanation… I always wondered how and /or why these Longwell Green bodies arrived in Stockport’s fleet…As I said earlier, complete oddballs in the North West of the 60’s… You say that they were ‘excellent’ although of course, I didn’t really notice or appreciate engineering quality in those days – it was all about the ‘look’… But any idea what happened to this batch after SELNEC ?? Straight to a date with a blowtorch, or did they live on somewhere, hopefully in a less ‘garish’ livery…. Thanks again…
Stuart C
03/10/12 – 10:18
To the best of my knowledge all the Longwell Green PD2s went to the breakers after further service with SELNEC. They fell victim to both SELNEC’s reduced life policy and the drive to change all services to OMO around 1973, though 348 (PJA 918) stayed on as TV1 (Training Vehicle 1) in the driver training fleet. I don’t have a date for withdrawal. As SELNEC maintained a wide range of MCTD policies, almost all vehicles withdrawn went for scrap (a policy which left large gaps in the range of MCTD vehicles available for preservation) and this also reduced the availability of vehicles from other fleets absorbed.
Phil Blinkhorn
15/10/12 – 07:37
There are numerous references in a variety of publications and forum posts to the Stockport Longwell Green PD2 having a look of ECW about them and, in fairness, the output from ECW on Leyland PD1s do seem to have some resemblance. http.www.sct61.org.uk/nw217. The Stockport bodies were almost the ultimate development of the Longwell Green genre which had been around for half a decade or more. Before leaving on my trip I tried to research any link between Longwell Green, Bristol and ECW. The only link I can find is that Bristol built bus bodies until around 1955 which, after WW2, resembled ECW products, ECW at that time of course was THE builder on Bristol chassis for the Tilling Group. At the same time Bristol was building cabs for its trucks. When it closed the Brislington bodyshop it transferred the cab jigs to Longwell Green. Other than that there seems to be no link. The Longwell Green/Burlingham link is equally difficult to prove. Apart from what I was told at Stockport the body style looks like a toned down version of the Burlingham product, the spectacle type of rear upper deck emergency exit windows being the major visual link. As Longwell Green used the style well in advance of Burlingham finishing double decker production, I assume there must be some record somewhere of an agreement.
Phil Blinkhorn
15/10/12 – 09:44
Phil..Could the link between Longwell Green and ECW be as simple as LG Coachworks being in Bristol (about five miles from the Bristol factory) and simply that the designers were surrounded every day by ECW designs and so copied a lot of the detail into their work. ECW bodies were in my opinion beautifully built and highly workmanlike so maybe they thought that was a good one to emulate.
Richard Leaman
15/10/12 – 16:56
Richard, That is, of course, possible.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/10/12 – 11:19
As Phil Blinkhorn says, the main key to the belief that the Longwell Green bodies are on Burlingham frames is in the rear profile of these buses. Search Flikr for “Stockport Corporation Bus” and a picture of #343 parked up on route #40 should emerge. There are other steers too. The radius on the window frames and more so on the destination and route number frames suggest that there are Burlingham influences there too. Many prefer the Burlingham bodied batch of PD2’s that Manchester Corporation to the contemporaneous MCW products. Not I, nor the Burlingham bodied CVG’s that Manchester acquired at the same time. Despite all the problems that Stockport Corporation had in obtaining (and finishing some of) the Crossley bodied PD2’s they remain quite my favourite combination of PD2 bodies for SCTD. 4 bays beat 5 in my book on 27′ double deckers. And finally, how nice to see a SCTD Crossley bodied Leyland running around Stockport again after all these years. I refer of course to Tiger Cub #403.
Orla Nutting
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
03/06/13 – 06:55
One of the Longwell Greens certainly did run in service in orange – 5947 (347). I remember being surprised in the autumn of 1974 when, after having been the last one remaining in service for some time and I assumed due for early withdrawal(although many others had of course become trainers in orange)it reappeared in the then-new darker orange GMT livery. It then lasted until about October 1978 I think. These bodies may have been excellent but the two things I noticed about them was the finish inside, which wasn’t really up to the later East Lancs standard, no grab rails at the front upstairs for instance, and the extreme degree of body roll when cornering, again compared to the EL ones.
Michael Keeley
03/06/13 – 08:35
I feel that I must speak in favour of the Yorkshire Rider livery. It was bold but professional and very dignified in rich green and cream, and the prominent red fleetname with former districts’ identities was quite masterly – especially since the Company name and the livery had to be devised with indecent haste in the unbelievable confusion leading up to De-regulation Day in October 1986.
Chris Youhill
04/06/13 – 06:46
The Yorkshire Rider livery was bold and contemporary with out being overly so. It had more presence than the PTE livery and was a million times better than the First fading scheme and the current pale pastel which always reminds me of some wartime austerity livery. Although the use of local fleet names is a step in the right direction. But they need to make a bold statement with a strong livery.
I have been having a rummage through a few pictures and came across this one. Whilst it is not the best photograph in the world, I am sure it is of historical interest. The vehicle on the right is one of Oldham Corporations 1958 “Tin front” Titans fleet number 443, it was transferred to SELNEC on November 1969, and re-numbered 5343 in that fleet. In this photograph it is still in the Crimson and White lined out livery, which Oldham used until 1966, when replaced with Pommard and Devon Cream. It is photographed in Lever Street Manchester, (destination blinds showed Stephenson Square), operating the service 13 to Uppermill via Oldham and Scouthead. This service was a Limited Stop service operated jointly with Manchester Corporation Transport. What is interesting with the photograph is that I caught a Maynes of Manchester AEC Regent operating on their service between Droylsden and Manchester Dale Street. Unfortunately the speed of the bus has made the registration unreadable, and there is no record on the rear of the photograph. But it looks like one of their AEC Regent V, with Park Royal H41/32R bodies.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
Aah, my favourite vehicle from my favourite batch of Oldham’s buses. These PD2s were superb inside and out, but sadly got more and more disfigured over the years with moquette seats replaced by vinyl ones and the original elaborately lined-out livery changing first to an unlined version, then pommard and cream and finally, for some, SELNEC’s orange and white. 443 escaped some of these treatments. As the batch were being worked through for re-certification when twelve years old the policy was changed so the earlier examples received orange and a five year ticket. 443 was done later and only got three years in total. To cut down on costs it wasn’t fully repainted but tidied up in pommard. This work was done at Stockport and as a consequence the original interior survived largely intact. It survived a bit longer as it was used as a skid pan bus at Hyde Road for a while after withdrawal. I have a photo of it there carrying the grille (and therefore registration) off 442 – very confusing! The Mayne’s bus will be on the Audenshaw to Dale Street service – the Droylsden service was numbered 46 and more significantly, ran to Stevenson Square, although both traversed this section of Lever Street. It can be identified as 6974 ND, a 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA with Park Royal H41/32R body of a particularly ugly design. The photograph will have been taken just before quarter past the even hour, as that is when Oldham’s bus on the 13 left, the other bus after the odd hour being a Manchester one. North Western worked the opposite way round to Uppermill via Lees on the 14, then returning via Scouthead to Manchester as a 13.
David Beilby
06/11/11 – 17:03
A close colleague of the (A) Mayne’s bus is already on this site at this link. Doesn’t it look like a Bridgemaster – & the height is not all perspective, has it – no dome?
Joe
07/11/11 – 07:39
It’s exactly the same as the second Bridgemaster body – except, obviously, for the height. If you mean does it have a flat roof profile, the answer is yes.
David Oldfield
07/11/11 – 07:40
As David B said, the Park Royal bodies on that batch of Maynes Regent Vs were particularly ugly, and they were the last ones bought before Maynes switched to East Lancs. As an enthusiast I have always liked to think there is a connection between those two facts, but I have no evidence for this.
Peter Williamson
07/11/11 – 12:11
Well the East Lancs bodies were a distinct improvement aesthetically – but were they East Lancs or Neepsend?
David Oldfield
08/11/11 – 06:40
I agree with David Beilby, these Oldham PD2’s always exuded an air of quality with their comfortable interiors and lined out livery. I rode on them regularly on the 9 (Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton) and 24/90 (Rochdale- Manchester) routes. On the 90 Limited Stop service which ran non-stop from Royton into Manchester they could turn in a fair pace along Broadway if they got the many sets of traffic lights in their favour. Regarding the ugly Park Royal bodies on the Maynes AEC, I did once read somewhere that Southampton turned away from Park Royal and moved to East Lancs after being very unimpressed with the abominations Park Royal inflicted on them on both Leyland PD2 and AEC Regent V chassis using the Bridgemaster derived design. I don’t know if this was true or even if operators cared about the appearance of their buses from a design point of view. Perhaps some did.
Philip Halstead
08/11/11 – 10:45
Well Philip, they certainly forsook the same PRV abominations for East Lancs/Neepsend – whatever the reason. [Swindon, Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woolen also had versions – the latter two by Roe – not to mention the first ACV Atlanteans, again built by Roe.]
David Oldfield
10/11/11 – 07:37
Similar very ugly Park Royal bodies were bought on a batch of PD2s by Southampton. These seemed incredibly top heavy due to their short length.
Chris Hough
10/11/11 – 07:38
I am sure that the Southampton story is true. Possibly not all, but certainly many municipal General Managers had definite ideas about the standards of vehicle design and appearance. Inevitably, the name of Geoff Hilditch springs to mind, but he was by no means alone in holding such views, and the municipal GMs held regular get togethers at which opinions were frankly exchanged. I have some Southampton pictures that I will submit in due course.
Roger Cox
10/11/11 – 07:39
To answer David’s question, Maynes had two Regent Vs bodied by East Lancs in 1964 and three by Neepsend in 1965.
Peter Williamson
10/11/11 – 17:02
Thanks, Peter
David Oldfield
20/12/11 – 06:40
I too agree with David Beilby’s comments about the Leyland/Roe Titans 429-452. I remember riding on them to and from college/Oldham Music Centre, on the 9 (409) bus route (437,443 and 449) in the mid 1960’s when they still carried their original livery. Around 1964/5 I recollect seeing a few examples on our route (B, Fitton Hill-Middleton Junction), and off their usual routes. It was the elaborate lined livery which caught my eye, as the usual buses on this route were unlined by that time or indeed like Leylands 388-407 and 413-418 (NBU 488-507 and NBU 513-518), never had been. I used to take notes of the bus numbers over a period of twelve months in 1964/5. I rode on 432,433,438,446,447,448,451 and 452 – to and from school in Fitton Hill. Since they were used primarily on the trunk routes I couldn’t understand why; even so, with their increased seating capacity of 65 they were a welcome sight. By this time they were looking tired (435,440 and 452 particularly so) and before long a simplified livery was applied-what a disappointment! By mid July 1966 they were introduced to our route in number, having been cascaded from the trunk routes when the Leyland Atlantean invasion gained ground.
I Would like to contribute the above photo of Oldham Corporation 451 taken after its first repaint – so minus the waistrail white stripe and the intricate lining out (abandoned when these vehicles were repainted in 1965). The interior paintwork was changed also from the original hammered metal finish to a plain cream finish on the majority of the buses. The first example of this batch to receive a repaint was 439, in January 1965, after substantial repairs following a serious front end collision the previous summer, when it had ploughed into a terraced house on Manchester Road whilst operating on route 98. The Oldham Chronicle carried a story with a photo of 439 embedded in the house with its crumpled bodywork surrounded a pile of bricks. No one was injured apparently. I well remember riding on it from school to home one evening in January 1965 on the B (later 21) route.
Photograph and Copy contributed by David Butterworth
These buses were a great favourite of mine. The Roe bodies were very well appointed and in the original livery with the red lining out they looked very classy. I rode on them frequently on the 9 route from Rochdale travelling to Watersheddings to watch the rugby. They were extremely comfortable and smooth riding. Oldham had a good team in those days and invariably beat Rochdale Hornets in the local derbies. I agree the buses lost a bit of their class in the simplified livery, initially retaining the original maroon to be replaced later by the Pommard and Cream livery which Oldham adopted up to absorption into SELNEC. I understand there were problems with the maroon fading which led to the ultimate change to the purpley red shade of Pommard. Like most of the Manchester area half-cabs they didn’t look too good in the SELNEC orange and white. They had a fair turn of speed and were much faster than Rochdale’s Gardner engined Regent V’s which often operated the Rochdale share of the 9 route which was jointly operated by Ashton, Oldham and Rochdale Corporations. They also worked on the 24/90 Limited Stop service between Rochdale and Manchester where they could show their paces to good effect, particularly on the 90 which ran non-stop between Royton and Manchester. The Roe bodied examples of Oldham’s large fleet of PD2’s always seemed to be a cut above the Northern Counties and Crossley bodied examples and there was definitely no contest with the Metro-Cammell Orions which were positively spartan by comparison. The photo also shows us that Oldham was among the small band of operators that used route letters for some of their services. To set the hare running I can bring to mind others as Middlesbrough, Portsmouth and Exeter. I am sure someone will soon add some more!
Philip Halstead
23/01/12 – 10:15
Yorkshire Woollen District used route letters on their Dewsbury area tram replacement services.
John Stringer
24/01/12 – 05:57
Lettered bus routes sometimes came about when the bus routes came along in conjunction with the trams. The trams had the numbers, so the buses got the letters. I’m intrigued about a reverse situation with Cheltenham, which always had route numbers, tram and bus, but, at some point, in recent years, changed over to letters. Bizarre!
Chris Hebbron
24/01/12 – 15:45
Mexborough and Swinton used route letters until the trolleybuses were phased out in March, 1961, at which time they switched over to numbers. Rotherham Corporation ran jointly on the trolleybus routes to Mexborough and Conisborough, the Rotherham saloons showing either 8 or 9, and the Mexboro’ Sunbeams ‘A’ or ‘B’ respectively, until the changeover.
Dave Careless
24/01/12 – 15:46
I seem to remember (from 1956) that Great Yarmouth had a mix of lettered and numbered routes. I think all the lettered ones went to Gorlestone, but not all Gorlestone services were lettered ones. I have the distinct memory that route 3 started from Newtown on the northern edge of Yarmouth, and terminated at “Gorlestone (Green Ace)” – presumably a hostelry!
Stephen Ford
25/01/12 – 13:14
Middlesbrough Corporation also used route letters. Teesside Municipal Transport carried on this tradition for a number of years.
Stephen Bloomfield
20/02/12 – 13:38
Cheltenham switched to letters in the late 1980s when the Gloucester and Swindon operation was separated from Bristol. Both Gloucester and Cheltenham started minibus operations under the Metro name, and to avoid confusion Gloucester went for numbered routes and Cheltenham went for lettered. The one Cheltenham town route that kept a number for a while longer was the Prestbury-town-Coronation Square route 2 (which had full sized buses), but that eventually became the A.
James McLaren
20/02/12 – 17:12
Thx, James, for the answer to my question. A strange decision, really, since that neither towns’ local services ever strayed beyond their boundaries before or after minibuses came along. Still, it makes for variety. Does anyone know of any other bus companies currently using lettered routes?
Chris Hebbron
21/02/12 – 07:15
The Hebden Bridge local services supported by Metro and operated by Tyrer Tours use letters A – E. These were introduced in 2003 when First commenced operating the revised services with Optare Solos and Aleros supplied by Metro.
Ian Wild
21/02/12 – 07:18
Stagecoach Devon’s Exeter city services are still designated by letters, and it seems that to a large extent they are the initial letters of the suburbs to which they run – e.g. P – Pennsylvania; A – Alphington.
Stephen Ford
12/01/13 – 16:15
Try Preston corporation buses. Fp was Farringdon Park and there would have been others.
Jersey Motor Transport 1955 Leyland Titan PD2/22 Metro Cammell H31/26R
When Leyland Motors finished building bus bodies, the Jersey Motor Transport Company went to M.C.W. for their next double deck bodies. Two were bought in 1955, the other being J 16521, fleet number 20. They were the first Double Decker’s in the fleet with ‘Tin Fronts’ and Lightweight bodies. It was reported that the seats were hard, and the bodywork rattled. But the Drivers liked them because they were nippy vehicles. They served in the fleet for 16 years, being withdrawn in 1971, when Bob Lewis, from Trimdon Motor Services bought the J.M.T., and brought in more saloons, and gradually replaced Double Decker’s and Conductors. He also repainted the fleet in to a Blue livery getting rid of the Green/Cream used for many years. This was so vehicles could be moved between Trimdon and St Helier without repaint. J 16522 No 21 is seen here at the Corbiere Terminus of Route 12. Incidentally both vehicles 20 and 21 were actually scrapped on the island of Jersey. In this photograph the Driver has changed the blind to St Helier, but the Conductor has yet to change the platform blind from Corbiere. The advert is for Jersey’s Famous Beer ‘MARY ANN’ which has been Jersey’s local brew for over the last 100 years. Most of JMT buses through out the years carried an advert for ‘MARY ANN’ in one form or another. The building in the back ground is the old Corbiere Terminus Station (it is now a private residence) of the Jersey Railways & Tramways Limited, this company taking over the assets of the Jersey Railway Company Limited on 1st February 1896. The extension from St Aubin’s (the original terminus) to Corbiere being opened in 1899. The whole railway shut, after a fire broke out in St Aubin’s Station in the early hours of 18th October 1936, when the station buildings were badly damaged and 16 of the best carriages were destroyed.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
This is another example of the much maligned Orion design looking quite attractive. This is helped by the layout of the livery, a style which suited the Orion very well. The ones at Brighton which had the same livery layout but red instead of green always looked attractive to me. I always thought JMT was owned by the Jersey Government and had no idea it was bought by Trimdon Motor Services. That seems a strange commitment for a relatively small North East based independent. My former employers did some construction work in Jersey (nothing to do with transport) and found it a difficult place to operate. Shall we just say there were a lot of ‘vested interests’!
Philip Halstead
14/02/12 – 07:53
The Orion body was not the most attractive of designs and adding it to the tin front ‘Midland Red’ Leyland chassis did it no favours. Mix that with a 7’6″ wide chassis as in the case of JMT 21 and the result is positively undesirable, in my opinion. It looks narrow and top heavy, and that is from a side view! Having said that the Orion body could be made to look quite reasonable if painted in a smart livery with lining out, for example, Halifax, Bradford or West Bromwich. Equally, the BMMO style tin front Titan could be made to look quite attractive if it was fitted with a good looking body and smart livery, such as the Roe bodied Sheffield PD3’s shown in the previous posting. Perhaps a smart livery and body style draws the eye away from the plain BMMO style Leyland front. Who knows, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
Eric
14/02/12 – 08:50
Know what you mean, Eric. I generally prefer exposed radiator PD3s – especially the Stockport’s. Sheffield’s tin fronts, however, do work. As Charles Roe’s biggest fan, how is this for a variation on a theme (of livery improving an Orion)? Of all the many variations on offer, I found the worst looking one to be the front entrance PD3 – with several Doncaster operators, including the Corporation. Over the Pennines in Oldham (HQ of the Roe appreciation society?) their last traditional buses were front engined Roe/PD3s – which looked superb in their smart livery. So it can work both ways!
David Oldfield
14/02/12 – 11:27
Newcastle Transport had some very similar ‘tin front’ Orion PD2’s but Tyneside’s were the exposed radiator type, whilst the rest of the Northern groups Orions were Guy Arab’s They were all what could be best described as ‘cheap and chatty’ on the upper deck, with single skins and exposed frame’s, hence all the knocks bangs rattles and squeaks, but to be fair to the later PD3’s, although apart from being longer they looked very much the same from the outside, they were an entirely different beast inside, with double skins and sound proofing.
Ronnie Hoye
14/02/12 – 16:29
I should have mentioned in my original description that there is a Society devoted to the Channel Islands Bus scene. This is the Channel Islands Bus Society. Details can be obtained (please enclose a SAE), from Dr Jim Young, 67 Boston Avenue, Southend on Sea, Essex, SS2 6JH. Newsletters are published in Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter. Subscriptions are £14 per year for UK and CI residents or £17 for other EU countries.
Stephen Howarth
14/02/12 – 16:31
The demise of the Leyland bus-body building activities 1954 was a great loss to the bus industry. The alternatives such as the MCW Orion body must have been a great disappointment yet this style of body started a trend by other body builders such as Park Royal and Roe who attempted to copy and go lightweight. However a good livery such as on the JMT Leyland does improve matters a little but inside comforts and appearances such as front dome of rough fibre-glass make me wonder how Weymann and MCCW could change from their previous classical and quality bodywork finishes. My first view of a MCW Orion body was Yorkshire Woollen Leyland PD1 in overall red livery in Leeds in 1955, which was a shock to my senses. Fortunately some operators such as Liverpool CT demanded a better specification and MCW gradually changed and improved their designs in the sixties.
Richard Fieldhouse
10/04/12 – 06:24
I wasn’t keen on the Leyland tin front either and another Orion/Tin front combination which looked awful was a batch of PD2s delivered to Bolton which had the full front design, also used by Blackpool.
David Pomfret
11/04/12 – 06:05
Regarding the comment by Mr Fieldhouse regarding the Yorkshire Woollen bus he saw just to set the record straight this was not a PD1 these buses were rebodied Leyland PS1s. Their Orion bodies were actually lighter than their original Brush single deck bodies. They were always called Cans or Salmon Cans by us enthusiasts. My wife used to conduct on them and she always said they were very cold in winter possibly because they had no internal lining panels to keep the weight down.
Philip Carlton
11/04/12 – 15:35
Edinburgh bought many MCW bodied PD2s with tin fronts for tram replacement. This lead a councillor to comment on them by calling them Monstrous masses of shivering tin the only modern thing about them is their approximation of rock and roll when moving! Edinburgh liked the Leyland tin front so much they retro fitted it to some exposed radiator PD2s and also some rebuilt Guys. They also continued to fit it to new deliveries until 1966 long after the St Helens version superceded the original. In the end they built their own fibre glass version in house.
Chris Hough
22/04/12 – 16:13
Nice to see a picture of JMT 21 taken when new at the Corbiere terminus Route 12. I have seen a pre-delivery shot of the sister J16521 but not 21 new. Does the copyright owner have any other pictures of any other vehicle in Jersey at this time? I have a good collection of Jersey photos both pre and post war, but I am always looking to add to my collection.
We don’t seem to have any colour pictures of Oldham buses on the site, so I am submitting these two shots, taken early in PTE days. By the time these pictures were taken, the Oldham livery had been further simplified by the elimination of the red stripe above the lower deck windows. Oldham used a distinctive shade of red that was usually described as “pommard” after the wine of that name. PBU 947, No. 447, was a PD2/30 of the 1958 batch of 24 with Roe bodies, though my understanding is that the seating was H37/28R. Perhaps these buses were reseated at some stage.
Copyright Roger Cox
NBU 500, No 400, was a member of a batch of 20 PD2/20 delivered in 1957 with Roe H33/27R bodies. The year 1965 was a significant one to Oldham. In that year a Ministry of Transport inspection led to the discovery of major mechanical faults on 97 buses, and the Corporation had to hire in around 45 buses from sympathetic neighbouring municipalities.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
04/03/12 – 17:08
Good to see Oldham represented again and with typical vehicles – Roe-bodied Leylands. If these pictures are taken in SELNEC days it must be early 1970 as the fleet very rapidly lost the coat-of-arms and fleetname upstairs, all had lost these by July 1970. 447 got repainted orange and white in January 1971 and was the last Roe-bodied PD2 to be so treated. Unlike the earlier examples it didn’t receive a full overhaul and only lasted until July 1973. 400 was renumbered 5300 in October 1970 but despite running in increasingly shabby pommard and cream it outlasted 447, being withdrawn in March 1974. Your photos allow the two batches to be contrasted. I could usually identify with some confidence which batch an oncoming vehicle was from but even now I struggle to be able to explain why. One difference visible here which worked as a general rule was the painted ventilators but like all good rules it had exceptions. Other differences were the staircase window which was never fitted to the PBUs but quite a few NBUs lost this feature. When new the NBUs had pull-down half-drop ventilators which were a disaster. These were replaced by sliders which had a much thinner bottom rail than on the PBUs, making them less conspicuous. You can just about make out the vestigial framework for the half-drops on 400, which remained in situ. The 59 was a joint Manchester and Oldham service from Manchester via Middleton to Oldham and Shaw. Taking 74 minutes from one end to the other it was certainly Oldham’s longest (in running time) route and I think Manchester’s as well.
David Beilby
04/03/12 – 17:26
I rather liked the company name/coat of arms positioned where it is on these buses. I have to say, I don’t think that I’ve ever seen a ‘tin-front’ like these. Was it unique to these vehicles or Roe?
Chris Hebbron
05/03/12 – 07:42
The 59 was an incredibly circuitous route which left Manchester in almost the exact opposite direction to Oldham and Shaw which are north east of the city. It headed north west towards Bury along Cheetham Hill Road then turned towards Middleton via Heaton Park and Rhodes. It had almost ‘boxed the compass’ before it got to Middleton. The no. 2 from Stevenson Square to Newhey, which passed Shaw (Wrens Nest) the eventual terminus of the 59 would do the journey in around 40 minutes I would guess. In fairness to the 59 it was not intended to attract end to end passengers but provided very useful inter-urban links across areas to the north of Manchester. To answer Chris the unusual ‘tin front’ on these PD2’s was a retro-fit by Oldham after a few years in service. They were delivered with the standard Leyland BMMO front but sometime in the early 1960’s (from memory and I would bow to confirmation on this) the centre grill sections were replaced with the design shown in the photographs. In my view it was a great improvement. I think the replacement section was a glass-fibre moulding but again would welcome a second opinion on this. The failure by the MOT Inspectors of such a large slice of Oldham’s fleet caused quite a stir at the time and was widely covered in the ordinary (non-transport)press and media. In today’s blame culture I am sure heads would have been called for. I don’t ever recall the press reporting anybody at Oldham ‘falling on his sword’. Does anyone know if there any such actions taken?
Philip Halstead
05/03/12 – 07:44
This was Oldham’s own GRP (fibreglass being a trade name) front which they developed. The original one was flat like the standard BMMO grille but I suspect this was not stiff enough so the slight protrusion was added. Oldham were quite active in GRP moulding and also did the side pieces, the design of that varying over the years. The revised front grille became quite universal. From recollection the last bus with a BMMO grille was 453, withdrawn in 1970. They had been in the minority for some years before then.
David Beilby
05/03/12 – 07:45
The “kidney” window in the staircase panel on Roe bodies, which I believe was part of the safety staircase designed by Leeds City Transport general manager Mr. W. Vane Morland in 1935, was a common feature on many Roe bodies up to about 1954 but seemed to fall out of favour after then, so it is a bit of a surprise to see Oldham Corporation still taking them as late as 1957. Does anybody know if these where the last ones built or did other operators have any delivered later?
Eric
05/03/12 – 07:46
The tin fronts were Oldham-built replacements for damaged originals, and for my money a great improvement on them. Combined with the Roe body they even make the pommard livery look respectable, which is quite an achievement as it was not generally well-liked.
Peter Williamson
05/03/12 – 07:48
Beautiful Roe bodies and a distinctive livery, but I think I preferred their neighbours in blue at Ashton. I think you are correct, Chris – but I think it was an Oldham rather than Roe front. PS …..see previous black and white post of 451 with standard Leyland tin front!
David Oldfield
05/03/12 – 12:33
Eric, I think you’re correct. Sheffield’s 1955 Regent IIIs had the window but the 1957 and 1958 PD2s didn’t and neither didn’t any subsequent Roe bodies.
David Oldfield
05/03/12 – 17:53
Leeds first AEC Regent Vs of 1956-57 had the staircase window and were the last Leeds buses delivered with this feature. In the mid fifties all Leeds MCW bodies also had a staircase window this was a narrow slit like vertical affair.
Chris Hough
06/03/12 – 08:22
Strange to say, the staircase window reappeared in Sheffield with the front entrance Regent Vs, “Sheffield” Park Royals and then the “Sheffield/PRV standard” 33′ Atlanteans and Fleetlines – but all with tinted glass.
David Oldfield
06/03/12 – 12:27
Ah, the tinted glass would be the then modern equivalent of ‘decency boards’ protecting the modesty of Victorian/Edwardian ladies. The offside straight staircase’d London General/Transport ST’s and later LT’s had glazed windows down the whole length of the offside when built, but, over the years, the rearmost pane was replaced by a painted pane. One imagines voyeurs waiting opposite bus stops for the sight of a trim ankle, or more titillating, a calf! It all seems so amusing nowadays.
Chris Hebbron
06/03/12 – 15:22
Am I right in saying in connection with the staircase window was the Roe safety staircase. This had a flat landing halfway up the staircase which in theory would prevent someone rolling in to the road. Did anybody get saved by this?
Philip Carlton
07/03/12 – 08:40
The PBU batch of Leyland Titan buses (419-462) were distinctive in that they carried the Leyland winged badge until repainted in 1964/5. The number plates were located higher up the original tin fronts (above air vents) than on earlier batches also. The Leyland/Roe vehicles (429-452) featured decorative beading, painted white, aside the two upper red stripes which resulted in slightly narrower ones than on, for example, the 388-407 (NBU batch) To the critical eye, another distinctive features were angled front saloon windows, rather than horizontal as on 388-407. The side window vents were polishes aluminium which also made them stand out as mentioned earlier by David Beilby.
D. Butterworth
07/03/12 – 15:17
There is always so much to learn on this site. Until Chris Hebbron mentioned the image of a voyeur trying to catch the sight of a calf mounting the stairs of an ST/LT, I had never appreciated that London Transport permitted young farm animals to use the upper saloon.
John Stringer
07/03/12 – 16:12
Well, John, if they wanted to smoke they would have to, wouldn’t they?!
Stephen Ford
07/03/12 – 16:53
The correct name for the livery is Pommard and Devon Cream, and was introduced in 1966, after the very short lived ‘Blue’ livery experiment with NBU 502 (Fleet No 402). Mention is made of the positioning of the Fleet Name and Crest. This was done as a cost saving measure to save replacements (of the crest) when accidents occurred to the lower side panels and replacements had to be re-fixed. I also remember that in the Paint Shop (always an interesting place, supervised by the Foreman Sam Bardsley), that there were replacement lower deck panels painted and varnish ready for quick replacement by the body men. Again this was so vehicles spent less time off the road after lower panel accident damage. Mention is made of the Ministry of Transport fleet check in 1965. I started at OCPTD in 1968, as Junior Works Clerk and the ‘Fleet Check’ was still being talked about even then. Many of the systems which I worked on had been brought about after that, and procedures in the workshops and the Depot had been tightened up. Philip says ‘did heads roll’ well YES they did, but it was never made public, I will not name names even though it is now 47 years ago, they could still be around.
Stephen Howarth
07/03/12 – 16:57
The Roe bodied PBU’s also had a more upright front profile when viewed side on than the NBU’s. Obviously this was necessary to get the extra row of four seats in to give 37 seats on the upper deck against the 33 on the NBU’s.
Philip Halstead
08/03/12 – 07:09
Nice ones, John & Stephen F. My comment was even more amusing than I thought! And, Stephen H, thx for the reason behind the fleet name/crest not being on the lower panels – a sensible variance.
Chris Hebbron
09/03/12 – 17:25
Interestingly, around 1970 the Leyland PD2’s reappeared on certain trunk/express routes in all day service having earlier been relegated to other duties in preference to Leyland Atlantean operation. There are photographs available of 402 – NBU 502 (the blue bus) and 430, PBU 930 on service 9 (Ashton to Rochdale) and Leylands 402 and 437 on the OTS route- Hollinwood Lees/Grotton. The previous years (from 1965 had seen Atlantean operation only on the O/T (27/28) routes, I seem to remember. I have photographs of 461 and forward entranced Leyland PD3 101 on the 98 (Manchester to Waterhead) service around 1970, after a long period dominated by the Atlanteans. Indeed when 131-135 were obtained in February 1966 they were put to work immediately on this route, quickly followed by 136-147 later that year. In April 1970 our local route (21) was converted to OPO with the arrival of dual door Atlanteans 183 to 187. Twelve months later Selnec liveried 188 to 199 arrived and many of these buses could be noted on the route besides the earlier Atlanteans 178 to 182. This marked the end of the PD2’s on the route. For some reason 191 and 192 ended up in Ashton bus depot! Obviously transferred on delivery, but they later appeared in Oldham.
D. Butterworth
15/03/12 – 09:30
Further to my previous comments regarding the Leyland Atlanteans which replaced the PD2s on many routes, the numbers allocated were 5183 – 5199 in the SELNEC, (Southern) Fleet allocation, which would have been OLDHAM’S 183 – 199.
D. Butterworth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/09/12 – 19:53
I was a driver on Oldham Buses from 1961 & through the 60’s, was quite surprised by photo’s and comments, particularly the 1965 shot after the ministry man came into do his worse. Interestingly, we then drove many buses far worse than our own. The Blue Livery was sponsored by the Egg Marketing Board. Which I believe were given that “Go to work on an Egg” advert printed on the 2 buses with the fleet numbers 401 & 402. The then manager Harry Taylor flirted with idea of the livery but it was unsuccessful. Then the Atlanteans, Selnec etc etc. I moved on to other things and some time later was a HGV & PSV examiner based at Heywood HGV Centre. A local firm had bought 3 PD1 fleet numbers 264 & I think 266 & 268. Not the easiest to teach on. Happy days!
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1953 Leyland PD2/12 Roe HBB56R
Westwood Bus Station, Scarborough, photographed whilst on a family holiday in 1966. In the foreground 1953 Roe-bodied Leyland PD2/12 608 (NRH 219) is loading passengers for Bridlington, whilst behind lurks 1963 front-entrance Bridgemaster 749 (3749 RH). Opposite, laying over before snarling its way to Driffield, is 1960 Metro-Cammell-bodied Tiger Cub 689 (6689 KH). What would Health & Safety officialdom make nowadays of buses loading passengers whilst parked with their off sides against the platforms, I wonder? 608 was withdrawn in 1969, and 749 in 1976 – both passing to North’s, the dealer, and later for scrap. 689 was withdrawn in 1972 and fared a little better, being sold on by North’s along with the rest of the batch to Irish operator Sureline of Lurgan. Happy Days! Now where did I park my time-machine?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
05/04/12 – 06:50
Your comment about buses loading with their off sides against the platforms reminds me of Lower Mosley Street Bus Station in Manchester. In particular I remember the evening rush hour, when elderly North Western Atkinsons (inter alia) which had been sitting in the depot all day, would sit there with their smoky exhausts blowing straight into a waiting room full of people.
Peter Williamson
05/04/12 – 09:26
The ordeal of waiting passengers being nearly asphyxiated by exhaust fumes is by no means confined to bus stations these days – since the widespread adoption of one way streets the same experience can now be freely enjoyed in most towns and cities, especially when traffic is at a standstill in peak periods.
Chris Youhill
05/04/12 – 09:28
Oh, John, please leave room for me in your time machine! In fact, it would be best if it could take the form of a Beverly Bar ‘decker, (or even a fleet of them), to make room for all the readers of this site who would want to join you. (Bags me a seat upstairs). Loading offside parked buses was hardly the best arrangement, and I guess there must have been accidents, but all the staff would have known the potential for them and would have been sensible enough to take proper care, I’m sure. On the question of exhaust fumes, (Peter Ws comment), we rarely used the Westwood Bus Station, but the joy, as a lad, of drinking in EY diesel fumes at Bridlington bus station, (especially after a shower), is one of my most cherished childhood memories.
Roy Burke
Myriad were the diesel flavoured Bus Station/Depots in the Heyday. Without thinking – Kingston LT; Brixham (and other) Devon General. (Name your own). I have a great love for the Yorkshire Coast – especially Scarborough – and agree that indigo and primrose rules, but give me STD cream and blue, SUT red and grey and CCT green and cream. I may be prejudiced, but I will keep the flag flying for South Yorkshire and North Derbyshire. [NB, I’m too young to remember classic EMMS livery!]
David Oldfield
05/04/12 – 18:11
It always struck me that bus station bays from which buses have to reverse out (standard these days) represent a far more hazardous arrangement than the drive through type. Strange that it’s allowed, bearing in mind that reversing a bus at all seems to be frowned upon everywhere else. Mounting a back-loader from a pavement on wrong side wasn’t really a big deal, provided the conductor kept watch. Yes please, save me a place too John – front nearside downstairs if possible – a good balance of view ahead and aural delight.
Stephen Ford
05/04/12 – 18:13
Gentlemen.. please may I have a seat on your time machine? I share your memories of the “aroma” of diesel fumes which always signalled the start of another adventure..a ride on a a previously unseen bus to tick off in my Ian Allan book was the best! A warm, sunny day gave the best effect. Then I also fondly recall the excitement of riding on brand new, first day out Bristol KSW/Lodekka’s etc…the inside filled with the scent of new paint, new upholstery and sometimes the engine was still “running in” so emitted thin blue smoke from the exhaust to confirm it was Brand New! Upstairs so clean and bright before being ruined by a million Woodbines..my mother would never ride upstairs except when the bus was new or freshly repainted. It’s drifting from the subject but John’s simple picture brings back lots of memories from 1966. Thank you.
Richard Leaman
06/04/12 – 07:39
Re my posting under the recent Hebble Photo and offside loading – I hadn’t considered the exhaust fumes – however I suppose it softened us all up for the top deck smokers’ fug !
Farmer G
06/04/12 – 07:40
As a conductor and driver on EYMS in 1966/7 we normally arrived 30mins before departure then went across road for a cuppa only to arrive back at the bus to find it had magically filled with passengers and yes the platform was way high when parked that way. However in 1967 they got us to park the other way round much better for the passengers but the driver had a hard pull right back onto the road no power steering in them days, but very enjoyable days
Ken Wragg
06/04/12 – 07:41
John What a superb photograph! One question – 608 appears to have a raised advert panel between the two upper cream bands; was it a very early illuminated advert?
Bob Gell
06/04/12 – 07:41
Comments about exhaust fumes reminds me of as a teenager in the 40s and early 50s in Killermont Street bus station in Glasgow waiting for the East Kilbride 70 or 71 Central SMT, being subjected to the fumes of the Edinburgh SMT`s elderly TD5s in the next platform.
Jim Hepburn
06/04/12 – 07:42
I’m in complete agreement with Stephen Ford about bus stations which require reversing movements to exit. I don’t think this model has to be adhered to because South Yorkshire PTE, to it’s everlasting credit, has built excellent drive through stations at Sheffield, Meadowhall, Rotherham and Doncaster. In Derby, the City Council has provided a reverse off bus station which is perhaps the worst example of it’s kind in England. The vehicle area is insufficient which causes conflicting movements and vehicles entering are continually blocked by those trying to exit. There have been many minor scrapes since it opened but it’s new and therefore criticism is not allowed!
Chris Barker
06/04/12 – 09:25
I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen Ford and Chris B – if I had my way “reversing off the stand” bus stations would be banished. The “state of the art” one in Leeds has been the scene of many disasters since it opened some twenty years ago. The tiny one in Otley is similarly hazardous. I have personally experienced years of difficulty in the Leeds one, where our stands 5/6 had appalling lack of available view when reversing on left lock – fast incoming vehicles (speed limit routinely ignored by many) could easily disappear from view as they swept through a right hand near U turn. Another really unbelievable feature is that intending passengers sit or stand in their admittedly comfy concourse behind glass windows just waiting for an out of control vehicle to ram the frontage – this has happened at least twice in Leeds, and the subsequently installed “crash bars” would be of limited effect in a serious case.
Chris Youhill
06/04/12 – 15:27
Chris Y, this brings to mind the mutually known, erstwhile Vicar Lane bus station in Leeds, where West Yorkshire and Samuel Ledgard used to perform similar reversals. However, the fundamental difference was the presence of the conductor on the back platform giving two resounding blasts of his/her Acme Thunderer to signal “all’s well”. Not a guarantee of safety, of course, as passengers would often invade the road space to make a last minute jump onto the bus.
Paul Haywood
06/04/12 – 15:28
For those who relish the Scarborough Scene in the relatively recent past, there are some cracking photos to be found at the following link //www.focustransport.org.uk
John Darwent
06/04/12 – 15:28
The Wakefield one is just the same, Chris Y. It has always reminded me of that famous scene out of “Airplane”. They need proper buffers! Reverting to smells- not the smell of exhaust, but hot engines: a Daimler CVD6 at North Bridge in Doncaster with its engine side access open (as often) & oil everywhere- a sweet smell which was almost intoxicating… and talking of North Bridge, the drivers had (as I have said before) to thread their way through to the exit and then perform a u-turn across the old A1!
Joe
07/04/12 – 07:04
Yes Paul, I remember very well the entertaining presentations at Vicar LANE – the low wall adjoining the street was hit so often that it was eventually replaced by simple columns and “draped” chains. At certain “ad hoc” times a spare conductor would be around to help in reversing One man/lady buses off the stands. One priceless experience must be related here. Within days of the Ledgard takeover an elderly former Yeadon (Moorfield) Depot driver was having as much trouble persuading his unfamiliar (and detested by him) Bristol Lodekka in going backwards as he’d had in encouraging it forwards between Otley and Leeds. He was a comical raconteur, and given to priceless dramatic exaggerations, and told us of this encounter with authority :- JY – “I were just revussin’ off t’ stand when a yappy little ****** in a shiny ‘at rapped on t’ mudguard and snapped “I want thy number !!” “Oh, sez I, and why the (censored) duz tha’ want my number.” “Tha’s just knocked wall down sez ‘e.” “Oh ‘av a ?? – says I, well I’d just like thee to tell us this – If I’ve knocked thi’ wall down, wot wer that long ‘aired **** at back wi’ t’ whistle doooin’ ?”
Chris Youhill
07/04/12 – 07:05
East Yorkshire’s Westwood bus station was a charming place made even more captivating by the company’s blue/cream/white buses (and the trips to visit my two great-aunts in Cayton who incidentally would never use the competing services of United unless they absolutely had to!!). The site is now a Tesco store. Ken Wragg mentions that in 1967 loading at Westwood was changed from the format shown in the photo so that bus doors were then against the platform. I recall in that, in the earlier part of the 1960s, the buses loaded this way (with their doors against the platform) so for some reason a change was made and subsequently changed back. The site was perched on the edge of the ground falling away towards a large school and, as can be seen in the photograph, the loading area sloped. To the left of the building there was a narrower strip of concreted parking road at a lower level than that seen in the photo.
David Slater
07/04/12 – 07:07
I guess Chris Y will have worked at some time on the S.Ledgard Bradford – Harrogate route. Doubtless he will remember the reversing routine in Menston Village. The Bus would turn right into Burley Lane and then the conductor would dismount and check the crossroads was clear – give two blasts on his Acme Thunderer and watch the bus back round the blind corner – jump back on and the bus would pull in to the stop in front of the shops. If I recall it was at 10 minutes past from Harrogate and 40 minutes past from Bradford.
Gordon Green
07/04/12 – 15:42
Interesting recollections indeed Gordon and I worked at Otley depot so our only participation in the Bradford – Harrogate service consisted of two Monday to Friday “Workmen’s” duplicates. The morning one was at 07:20 from Menston to Otley and at teatime 17:33 from Otley to White Cross. The Menston Village reversing that you mention was of course involved in both cases. The main Bradford to Harrogate service (the Company’s longest route) was operated entirely by Bradford depot and had been inherited from B & B Tours – to the very end of Ledgard’s it remained referred to by staff and passengers as “The B & B” – but officially within the Company after the founder’s death in 1952 as S.Ledgard (Bradford) Ltd. Departure times were actually 10 past the hour from Bradford, and 30 minutes past from Harrogate. Our lowly position in the order of things in the mighty West Yorkshire Road Car empire was made clear in Harrogate Bus Station – we departed from a different stop to the West Yorkshire number 53 service, our stand being labelled “Bradford – S.Ledgard.” Perhaps this was a little chagrin from the WY as we were the only ones to serve Menston Village in its entirety.
Chris Youhill
07/04/12 – 15:48
The talk of odd loading procedures reminds me of Brighton’s Pool Valley bus station where vehicles were reversed on to the stands, fine with back loaders but with the advent of front or forward entrances passengers had to walk on the roadway and negotiate the steps from there. The reversing was supervised by conductors while such existed, after the advent of OMO ex conductors were employed to supervise these manoeuvres which ensured accidents were few and far between. The whole bus station was in fact a public road open to other vehicles also buses travelling west had to cross the very busy main promenade difficult in the summer season, especially with a PD3 Queen Mary with the numerous blind spots resulting from their full fronts. I feel somewhat of a lone voice for the south of the country on the site but thoroughly enjoy the chatter and the shared knowledge that is available so easily.
Diesel Dave
07/04/12 – 17:59
Chris Y – the times I quoted were in fact the Menston times – from Bradford the Ledgard at 10 mins past completed a 15 min afternoon service from Bradford to Harrogate – Service 53 via Otley at 25 and 55 and Service 51 via Yeadon Moor at 40 plus short workings to Otley on the 53 at 05 and 40. In addition there was the 50 Otley via Yeadon hourly at 10 mins past ! These days you are hard pressed to find a bus from Menston to Bradford as I found out recently when leaving my car for service. Believe it or not there was also an hourly 76 Harrogate – Skipton between Otley and Harrogate. You beat me to it with the banishment in Harrogate Bus Station – about half way down amongst Wetherby’s I recall. However SL were permitted use of the Harrogate stand at Chester Street next to the Green Hut – for about 2 minutes before departure ! One final bit of memorabilia – there was for many years an abandoned red B & B Tours timetable case fixed to the wall on the Bradford bound side of the road at Lister Park Gates at the bottom of Oak Lane – it was certainly there in the 1950’s and possibly longer.
Farmer G
08/04/12 – 06:42
All this talk about Westwood bus station in Scarborough, reminded me about some official photographs I have when it was first opened, you can tell from these, that it was built on a slope. Also of interest regarding this bus station was the use of EYMS’s 653 DBT553, 541 LAT69 & 674 VKH674 over the years, in use as left luggage stores, parked on the lower part of the slope.
Mike Davies
08/04/12 – 06:46
Your ‘priceless’ story, Chris Y, reminds me of my square-bashing time at RAF West Kirby (Wirral). We had a lad there who lived in Huddersfield and would, in his parlance, “…go over yon t’Pennines in t’cooch.’ whenever he was able to! And, Diesel Dave, you are not alone and I do recall Pool Valley on my occasional visits from Southsea to Brighton, on one occasion on a Leyland PD2/Beadle, lovely buses.
Chris Hebbron
08/04/12 – 10:59
More fascinating memories Farmer G. I have to confess that I’d no idea of the extremely even intervals scheduled from Bradford on the various services. Interestingly, the 50 service was also integrated in a similar manner with Samuel Ledgard at the Otley end. The West Yorkshire 50 service left at 05 past the hour while the Ledgard buses (Yeadon Depot, the Moorfield) left Otley at 25 past (via White Cross) and 45 past via The Chevin, thereby providing an even twenty minute interval service between Otley, Guiseley, Yeadon and Rawdon. I had a wry chuckle when you wrote “Believe it or not” about the 76 service from Otley to Harrogate. When I worked at West Yorkshire’s Ilkley depot the 76 was my favourite route and I swapped to be on there when ever possible. It was a magnificent five hour round trip from Skipton via Ilkley, Otley, Harrogate, Wetherby, and Boston Spa to Tadcaster. So enjoyable was the delightful country journey that one felt guilty, well almost !!, at being paid for the ride. It was also moderately to extremely busy and was therefore no shrinking violet in the revenue stakes. Five “cars” were required for the hourly service, these being provided in varying proportions by Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate and Wetherby depots – on one weekday journey the Skipton depot car was operated by a Grassington depot crew – I daresay with Ordnance Survey map to assist with their brave foray into the big wide World !! I don’t unfortunately remember the B & B timetable case at Oak Lane – if I had I think I may have been willing to risk an appearance before the Bradford Bench in order to acquire and hide such a priceless artefact by night.
Chris Youhill
08/04/12 – 11:00
Your comments on Pool Valley, Diesel Dave and Chris H brought back a few memories, because I was Traffic Superintendent, Brighton, in 1968. You are absolutely right, Dave about the confusing relationship between the bus station and the adjoining public roads. Southdown did not own any part of the road way, and control over the area reserved for buses was most strictly exercised by traffic wardens. I once received a very strong warning from a traffic warden when I was at Pool Valley on business and briefly parked a Southdown traffic car, (a Morris 1100), in the far left bus aisle. Well, one of our 1100s had a PSV licence, so we could carry passengers in it, (e.g for missed express services etc). Being the arrogant and cocky so-and-so I then was, I made sure that the next time I wanted to park a company car at Pool Valley for a few minutes I used that particular car, and that the same traffic warden was on duty. As the guy walked up to me, I gained immense glee by saying to him as I swept past, ‘Before you start, mate, that’s a bus. If you don’t believe me, look in the window.’ Stupid and immature, no doubt, but it made my day – a rare event for me at Southdown.
Roy Burke
08/04/12 – 16:12
I knew this 1959 photo might come in useful eventually. Apologies for the poor quality and alignment (missing the registration number etc) but I presume this is DBT 553 acting as a Left Luggage Office referred to by Mike Davies. I must have climbed down into the garden of the then Boys’ High School (in 1976 becoming the Stephen Joseph Theatre where Alan Ayckborne would premier many of his famous comedy plays, before they moved to the present Odeon theatre site).
Paul Haywood
11/04/12 – 15:43
Maybe I’m a bit over sensitive, but I think that inadvertently I may have done myself a minor disservice in my previous comment, in an attempt to keep the comment short. I wouldn’t want to imply that parking company cars in the bus aisles at Pool Valley, (by me or anyone else for that mater), was a commonplace activity; quite the opposite. It was a rare event that happened only for urgent reasons, and then for a very short time. Controlling traffic around and in the bus station was vital, and we appreciated the efforts of the traffic wardens, who kindly allowed our temporary parking because they knew we’d be involved in keeping the buses running, and didn’t abuse the latitude they gave us. Similarly, instead my phrase that I ‘made sure’ that the same guy who’d chewed me off previously was on duty again, perhaps I should have said that I’d seen he was on duty when I was at Pool Valley earlier that day, and although I did deliberately use the car with the PSV licence, that was only because both 1100s were available. I may have been stupid and immature, but I wasn’t, I think, downright cretinous.
Roy Burke
16/04/12 – 07:27
I’m going to stick up for “drive-in, reverse-out” bus stations. Provided pedestrians are kept well away from the reversing area, this layout provides much better passenger facilities, which can be concentrated in a single concourse. This also helps personal security, especially at night, and, more important, passengers do not have to cross busways to reach their bus on a separate island. Compare Burnley, Leeds, Huddersfield and Wakefield with Wigan, Bolton, Bury and Rochdale. Someone got run over not long ago in Bury while crossing between buses. I also recall a fatality in Worcester bus station, another of the drive-through type, when a driver was run over.
Geoff Kerr
03/05/12 – 09:21
Just a follow up to Scarborough bus stations, I have sent some photos of the the three EYMS buses used as left luggage stores at Westwood bus station.
653 – DBT 553 was the first and was in use as a luggage store from 2/57 until 11/65 when it passed to Colbro (dealer) for scrap.
541 – LAT 69 was next replacing 653 in 1/66, 541 passed to United AC 3/72 when they took control of Westwood and continued as a luggage store until being sold for preservation 1/75 it still survives today, but in store somewhere local.
674 – VKH 674 was used next, along side 541, being converted in 7/69, this also passed to United ownership with the bus station in 3/72 and was in use until 1/75 when it passed into preservation, and was a well known vehicle at many rallies around the country, it is now in store along with 541 both out of use. All three vehicles had their seats removed and wooden luggage racks fitted , 541 also had doors fitted on the platform area.
Mike Davies
13/08/14 – 14:43
I hope I’m not repeating something someone else has commented on but as a school girl, I travelled to Beverley High school from Hessle. The buses were navy and cream and had, so I was told, a specially domed roof so that they could get through Beverley Bar. For the most of my school life we caught a bus at 9 am arriving in Beverley around 9.40, missing Assembly! Apparently this was because there were not enough buses to go round at 8 am. I am currently watching the documentary on EYMS and am delighted with the series, especially as I watched Rodney Hebden who was a great friend of my brother. We all loved the livery colour and wondered why and when it changed to its modern day colours.
Meg
22/09/14 – 07:30
I came across an article in the Commercial Motor in April 1957 which has a description of the bus station. It states it was designed mainly for holiday traffic being used by four services during the year. the Hull service jumps from hourly to half-hourly in summer and has extensive duplication. (as a schoolboy traveller to relatives outside Scarborough at Newby, I can vouch for that). On a peak Saturday in summer 1956 there were 81 vehicle departures, 52 being duplicates on this service alone! The other services had 22 departures, 7 being duplicates. Therefore the design provided more parking space than is usual. It is formed by two concreted areas at different levels with a concrete access ramp at each end, the lower level being exclusively for parking. Passengers are picked up at two points on a single platform. facilities include a waiting room, inquiry and left luggage offices, staff rest rooms and toilets. A reinforced concrete canopy extends over the platform. So many buses in blue and primrose – if only we had digital cameras inn those days.
Malcolm J Wells
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/10/16 – 07:20
John Stringer mentions the horror today’s Health & Safety people would have with offside loading/unloading in bus stations. They’d have a heart attack with the forecourt at Morden Tube Terminus. No better than a large supermarket carpark, with most queues forming behind concrete base “permanent” temporary bus stops, these huge queues had no protection from errant approaching buses as a result of driver carelessness or vehicle faults. Yet, I’m not aware of any accidents ever at this place of heaving humanity!
This photo illustrates the frequent shortage of London Transport’s lowbridge buses to serve the two red routes in Central Area, the 230 and 127. Here, 17-mile-distant Godstone Garage’s displaced-by-RLH’s green lowbridge STL2229, shows its wartime origins with the lack of a rear blind display indicator. On a foul 29 Mar 52, it is working from Central Area’s Merton Garage, on the 127 at Morden Tube Station forecourt. (the route plate stencil is visible on the back window), with STL1630 on the 118 and an RT on the 93. Photo by a probably frozen Alan Cross.
Chris Hebbron
22/10/16 – 09:42
Chris H’s description of the conditions at Morden Station reminds me of the abominable Wellington Street Coach Station in Leeds. Particularly as vehicle sizes grew its area was woefully inadequate. At one time there was no shelter but eventually an enclosed concrete alley was built across the full rear wall – any mechanical failure or driver misjudgement would have meant the victims within would have been crushed and showered with concrete and glass – mercifully this never happened. Meanwhile in the main open area – no bus lanes, just a terrifying “free for all”, hundreds of passengers waited to load and alight while inspectors brusquely ordered them to “get back.” Its closure couldn’t come soon enough.
A couple of weeks ago I commented on the Pommard and Devon Cream livery introduced in 1966, after the very short lived “Blue” livery experiment with NBU 502 (Fleet No 402). Well here it is, seen in a rather grubby state, in Union Street, operating on the Service “A” Greenacres/Bar Gap Road – Limeside (Laburnum Road) via Chapel Road. The service was renumbered “18” in the April (1st) 1968 renumbering exercise. The bus was transferred to SELNEC and became 5302 in their numbering scheme.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
10/04/12 – 19:45
I may be wrong but I seem to recall that this bus had a yellow band between the two shades of blue instead of the white band shown in the photograph at some time during the experiment. Can anybody confirm? I used to see it on the 9 in Rochdale fairly frequently.
Philip Halstead
11/04/12 – 06:08
This blue livery reminds me of the equally abysmal colour scheme of Cambus of Cambridge, which blended in astonishingly well with the Fenland fogs.
Roger Cox
11/04/12 – 06:09
The original scheme was more like you describe, but the yellow was the “Roe” waistrail and all above was light blue. It looked quite different! It seems to have been changed quite quickly.
David Beilby
11/04/12 – 16:00
Would that, Roger, be the livery of white with a variety of horizontal stripes of various blue hue? It put me off visiting that area again for some twenty years!!
Chris Hebbron
12/04/12 – 05:54
Chris, the original Cambus attempt at a livery was overall pale “Cambridge Blue” with cream trim, and the insipid effect made buses virtually invisible at dusk and in fog, as well as showing up the road dirt rather prominently. A variant for dual purpose vehicles had stripes of darker blue across the vehicle front and in a reverse slope along the sides. As you say, the visual effect was awful. Later, Cambus revised the bus livery to show a darker blue on the lower half of the vehicle, with the pale blue above, very similar in appearance to the Oldham experiment. When one remembers the inspired company liveries of the past – City of Oxford, Aldershot and District, Southdown, East Kent to name but a few – and the neat simple paint schemes of the ex Tilling group, plus the multiplicity of interesting municipal colours, the present day rash of garish garbs seem to be the end results of opium induced nightmares.
Roger Cox
13/04/12 – 06:15
Your so right, Roger. Even today, the most dignified liveries are the traditional ones. Thankfully, a few operators still respect that principle.
Chris Hebbron
13/04/12 – 17:23
I particularly enjoyed the description in the caption of Rotherham’s depot as being a ‘gloomy’ looking place. Sandwiched between the River Don on one side and the canal on the other, the Rawmarsh Road garage was prone to flooding in heavy rains, such that the inspection pits would sometimes fill with water, making it very gloomy indeed if you were trying to work in there. In PTE days, some of the fitters actually ‘acquired’ a rowing boat left behind by some contractors working on the river bank, and used it, painted in PTE coffee and cream (!), to row across to the fish and chip shop at lunch times! There was a set of steps leading down to the canal bank from the roadway, which rose up to pass over the railway alongside the garage, which were ideally placed from which to stand, with notebook and pencil, and watch the comings and goings of the Crossleys and Bristols in the yard, while the single-deck trolleys of Rotherham and Mexboro and Swinton swept by every few minutes on the road; from this schoolboy spotter’s point of view, it didn’t get much better.
Dave Careless
13/04/12 – 17:33
Copyright unknown.
I have found a photo of OCPTD NBU 502 in the ‘First’ blue livery with the yellow band, as mentioned by David Beilby. I’ll let you and your contributors decide which is the better livery of the 2 in the picture. I know which is my favourite. Note the Salford DD in the back ground hired in after the fleet check by the ‘Ministry Man’ in 1965, which dates the picture to late that year. Not my copyright, but I have had it in my collection for many years. No mention of the original photographer.
Stephen Howarth
14/04/12 – 07:08
That’s not a Salford Daimler, the photograph predates that affair. It’s one of two Liverpool Crossleys bought for spares by Oldham. The engine of one of them ended up in preserved Oldham Crossley 368.
David Beilby
16/04/12 – 07:34
The blue bus (402) took to the road in September 1963, but within a few weeks the livery was changed to the two shades of blue separated by a white band. I preferred the first version. The interior was unchanged – dark red trim and upholstery: a neighbour of mine said that she found this a disappointment!! Presumably a blue bus should have a blue interior, as (at the time) Rochdale Corporation’s buses had. This was also the case with Lytham St.Anne’s Corporation buses. 402 was one of three buses to receive the Pommard and cream livery in July 1966. The others were Met. Cam. 419 (PBU 919) and Northern Counties 457 (PBU 957). The whole fleet then received this livery up to 1970 with the exception of Roe PD1 246 (DBU 246, preserved); Roe Titan PD2 360 (FBU 647); and Roe Titan 450 (PBU 950); withdrawn in 1971.
D. Butterworth
19/02/15 – 10:38
I might be a bit late putting this comment in but as far as I remember Oldham 246 (DBU246) did receive the Pommard and cream livery. I was a passenger on her when she was the first bus of the morning on the number 8 (later 20) route from the top of Featherstall Road to Hollinwood back in 1966/1967.
Eric Langley
19/02/15 – 15:52
I can bring to mind only two examples where two shades of blue have looked good on buses because it is a feat that is difficult to pull off. West Brom’s post war double deck fleet, bar the rear engined buses, look absolutely superb with two shades of blue. The trick there was to keep them well apart. Manchester’s airport coaches, both single and double deck, carried the two shades well mainly because each complimented the other. There was a time in the mid 70’s when dissatisfaction by the public with the orange and white SELNEC livery led to a campaign to have the fleet in two tones of blue. It came to nought. Perhaps someone remembered the Oldham examples.
Orla Nutting
19/02/15 – 17:25
I wonder if the Manchester airport buses inspired the second Oldham scheme.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/02/15 – 07:39
Orla Nutting mentions that there was a proposal to have the SELNEC PTE fleet painted in to a two tone blue livery but nothing came of it, perhaps because of the ill fated Oldham scheme. It is worth mentioning here that Harry Taylor, ex Oldham Corporation General Manager was the Fleet Development Engineer of SELNEC. Enough said.
Stephen Howarth
20/02/15 – 07:41
Orla, I would agree with you about the West Bromwich livery, but I can think of a few more superb liveries using two shades of blue separated by cream. First, in my opinion one of the finest liveries ever – that of W. Alexander. Then there was South Yorkshire of Pontefract, and still with us – Delaine of Bourne.
John Stringer
20/02/15 – 07:42
Another two blues, Orla- South Yorkshire. Boat race colours. Chris Y will tell you they always looked good.
Joe
20/02/15 – 09:33
The South Yorkshire livery did work until someone was let loose with too much white paint, a spray gun and oversized lettering.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/02/15 – 11:32
Quite right, Phil. I was only thinking of the classic original South Yorkshire livery, the later soap powder box style was awful to my mind.
John Stringer
20/02/15 – 16:26
The Delaine, I’ll concede, impossible not to particularly when they’ve produced so many winning combinations of the two shades of blue over the years albeit the navy is almost black at times. Again, the application of white (or cream on some coaches) has enhanced the blues. South Yorkshire, I’m afraid not for me; undistinguished. I haven’t a problem with the colour blue it’s simply that the application of pale blues is a bit hit and miss (a bit like City is suppose) but more often miss. Rotherham, Rochdale (until nondescript cream ruled) Eastbourne & Swindon were about right with their blue and white/cream applications, Leigh and Middlesborough less so with their shade of blue and I was indifferent to Ashton’s so called peacock blue. Same for Bradford and Preston. Accrington’s was stunning with red and Birkenhead carried it off with pale blue with just the right amount of white/cream relief. There’s more but I won’t bore more and don’t get me going on two shades of green. BTW, I totally fail to understand why Oldham wanted a change in the first place. First it changed the rather nice plum colour to Pommard, a ghastly washed out colour, then this blue two tone (maybe the Gen Mgr had a Hillman Minx of this period).
Orla Nutting
20/02/15 – 16:27
D. Butterworth mentions that the whole Oldham Corporation fleet received the Pommard and Devon Cream livery, “with the exception of PD1, DBU 246……….” Attached is a picture of 246 in the ‘Grave Yard’ behind Oldham Depot displaying the aforementioned livery. I hope that this clarifies the situation.
Stephen Howarth
21/02/15 – 07:04
When I was at Oldham Harry Taylor the General Manager, had a Ford Corsair – Registration GBU 1. The Departmental staff car, was, however a Hillman Minx. It was painted black, which the Chauffeur kept immaculate, with red upholstery, with the Municipal crest on the doors.
Stephen Howarth
21/02/15 – 12:30
The Ashton Peacock Blue was reasonable but not a patch on the patriotic blue white and red that covered the fleet until late 1954. Oldham’s Pommard and Cream was just *~!**@& The Pommard looked like undercoat.
Phil Blinkhorn
Its either means a naughty word or Phil”s predictive typing has gone wonky again.
21/02/15 – 12:32
There were still quite a few vehicles in the older crimson and white livery when Oldham was subsumed into SELNEC. These fell into three categories: 1. Vehicles withdrawn when still in the crimson and white livery. Quite a lot of the older stock came into this category but one of the last “tin-fronts” 453 (PBU 953) was an early withdrawal and 425/6/50 followed later. There was also stock withdrawn before the formation of SELNEC that was still around, such as accident-damaged PD3 108 and four of the five Crossley-bodied PD2s. 2. Vehicles repainted into pommard and cream in the first few months before the new orange and white livery was implemented. Several “tin-front” PD2s came into this category but so, much to our surprise at the time, did one ex-Bolton, two ex-Sheffield PD2s and even more unexpected the last PD1/3 246 (DBU 246) referred to above. 3. Vehicles repainted directly into orange and white. Only one “tin-front” PD2 came into this category which was Metro-Cammell bodied 421 (PBU 921). The remainder were PD3s 101/2/4/5/7 and Tiger Cubs 111/2/6, the last of which was the final vehicle in service in crimson.
David Beilby
22/02/15 – 07:50
Absolutely nothing to do with buses but I rather liked the later BR DMU blue with white window surrounds colour scheme (the earlier overall blue looked dreadful)
Ian Wild
22/02/15 – 07:51
Why do operators see a need to change their image so radically? – especially when the change isn’t for the best. Whatever, as I’ve posted on another thread, last month I happened to see First’s Wright Eclipse(?) that is decked-out in heritage Pommard/cream . . . and I thought it looked superb (although that was against a back-drop of the current First livery).
Philip Rushworth
08/04/15 – 06:18
I agree with Philip Rushworth about the single deck Wright Eclipse bus looking good; a pity that a double deck version could not have been chosen -in the crimson lined livery – found on many of Oldham’s buses up until the mid 1960s.
David Butterworth
03/12/15 – 10:42
Citibus, one of those cheap and nasty firms which sprung up after deregulation had some Atlanteans in a similar 2 tone blue to the Oldham PD2
Todmorden Corporation and Joint Transport Committee 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/1 Leyland L27/26R
Scanning through the OBP Operators Index I just noticed a glaring omission. What – No Todmorden? How could this possibly be ? So here to immediately rectify the situation is their 1950 Leyland-bodied PD2/1 No. 5 departing Hebden Bridge for Burnley via Todmorden, in the Summer of 1969. It has just left its dismal terminus in Cheetham Street – behind the Hope Chapel in the background – where it will have connected with the inbound Halifax J.O.C. route 48/49 from Brighouse. It has then turned left into Crown Street, and it is here seen completing its next turn right into New Road, ready for a spirited run along the Calder Valley to ‘Tod’, then on through Cornholme, Portsmouth and the Cliviger Gorge and into the County of the Red Rose. Todmorden Joint Omnibus Committee was a staunch devotee of the Leyland marque, and for a period their fleet consisted solely of 38 PD2’s dating from between 1947 and 1951 – surely a fleet engineer’s dream? This one passed to the Calderdale J.O.C. in 1971 becoming their 352, but it was withdrawn shortly afterwards and passed to Mulley’s of Ixworth. They withdrew it in 1977 and sold it to Bickers of Coddenham – acting as dealers – from whom it passed to the Stella Artois brewery in Belgium (who I trust paid a Reassuringly Expensive price for it). Similar 1948 bus no. 2 survives in preservation, but does anyone know if No. 5 survived?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
19/04/12 – 06:31
Beautiful picture of a beautiful bus in beautiful condition. 19 years old? What are the chances of a Dennis or Volvo lasting that long, let alone in that condition?
David Oldfield
19/04/12 – 06:31
Superb photograph of a classic municipal bus. ‘Tod’ buses did a fair bit of moorland hill climbing as well as serving the valley bottom roads by the River Calder. They ran on the Burnley to Bacup route which climbed to a fair height at Weir, they then usually continued from Bacup back to ‘Tod’ over another mooorland summit by Temperley’s brickworks at Sharneyford. If that wasn’t enough for the venerable PD2’s they went over to Keighley via a bleak moorland run over Cock Hill. In later years Leopard saloons replaced the PD2’s and some of the routes were given up as being uneconomical.
Philip Halstead
19/04/12 – 06:32
Can I say what a super pic: in the usual Todmorden sunshine. Makes you wonder why anyone ran anything else, especially with the longevity of these bodies- and look how smart on 20 years. Is it true- have I read it here- that the low bridge in Todmorden was the depot entrance?
Joe
19/04/12 – 07:27
Joe, you’re right about the low bridge. Originally there was a bridge on the Burnley Road but that was rebuilt in the 1930s and it was the depot that remained the restriction. I liked Todmorden a lot and spent quite some time there riding and photographing in 1971 when it was Calderdale-owned but still of Todmorden character, with seven PD2s active. Given that the newest was twenty years old to say it was a surprise when two of them were repainted in Calderdale livery is something of an understatement. However, when you say the bus connected at Hebden Bridge with the Halifax 48/49 you highlight one of the problems with the Todmorden network which turned back at the “boundaries”. At both Hebden Bridge and Littleborough Summit, where Todmorden’s buses met those of Rochdale (later SELNEC), the twenty-minute frequency Todmorden service met a fifteen-minute frequency services, so good connections were not always assured. Todmorden had some good destinations, from the confusing Portsmouth to Mankinholes and Lumbutts, the latter being very scenic services. They were so keen on Leylands they even ran them to the Cross Lee estate!
The attached photograph shows six of the seven PD2s in the centre of Todmorden on 4th August 1971, a very fortunate combination. To think that the reason I was there was to publicise a vintage vehicle rally, namely the third Trans-Pennine Run! I’d rather just get on a service bus!
David Beilby
19/04/12 – 10:25
Oh, if only present day operators would realise that dignified liveries of this kind, whether tastefully restrained like Todmorden or rather brighter but equally “rich” like many others, do more to reinforce the owners’ stability and pride than all the expensive and totally meaningless “fairground or nursery school” offerings we have to endure today – one could hardly imagine the PD2s disguised as furniture vans and with virtually every window covered with a certain “stuff” which purports to allow perfect vision from within !! As regards the incredible longevity of the Leyland bodies I have happy personal experience of working on many such fine vehicles. When I was with Samuel Ledgard we had a dozen such vehicles from new and a greater number second hand, most of which had simply “nipped over the Pennines” to join us in their later years. We had four highbridge PD1s from Ribble and seven from Preston Corporation, all around fifteen years old when acquired and in incredibly superb order and requiring virtually no attention. A further four lowbridge PD2s from Ribble followed, along with one from West Wales. Other bargains of the same reliable chassis included three PD1s with ECW bodies (a fascinating and pleasing combination to me) and three with BBW bodies – those six all from Bristol. Then there was a lone PD2/MCW from Tynemouth, and there were two more Ribble PD1s from the same batch as those first mentioned above – but these had been upgraded to PD2 form and rebodied by Burlingham. It may be thought that such vehicles, purchased by a private operator while well in their dotage, would enjoy a quiet easy time but not a bit of it. The Ledgard services were intense, heavily patronised, often hilly, and tightly timed. nevertheless the fine Leyland vehicles performed like heroes under all conditions – a tribute indeed to the maintenance standards of their original owners and to the excellent attention practised by Samuel Ledgard. An illustration of the intensity of the services can be given in the 5.30pm weekday departure from Leeds (King Street) to Ilkley via Guiseley, which required no less than four double deckers – two “part journey” buses left at 5.27 and 5.28 while the two Ilkley machines left at 5.29 and 5.30. Very occasionally the short distance riders could find themselves luxuriantly carried home in a nice coach if a vehicle shortage dictated this. Perhaps the very finest of the second hand arrivals (no disrespect to the other splendid purchases) were the four Ribble PD1s 2471/2/8/9 BCK 414/415/421/422. These retained above the windscreens in the cabs (undoubtedly a bit of lovely mischief by our Ledgard painters) a notice warning “BOOTLE DEPOT – NOT TO BE DRIVEN UNDER ***** BRIDGE.” Well, I must apologise to the historians of the splendid Todmorden undertaking for “drifting off”, but these recollections do, to be fair, reflect some of the wonderful story and magic of Leyland and Lancashire “real” bus operation.
Chris Youhill
19/04/12 – 13:55
A very interesting and colourful post, Chris Y – drift off course as much as you like.
Chris Hebbron
19/04/12 – 16:15
Todmorden – a delightful Leyland print. How many people remember these somewhat unique coloured buses at the Yeadon Air Displays in the 1950s on hire to West Yorkshire Road Car alongside the Ledgard, West Riding, Leeds and Bradford Corporation hired in buses of the day at this annual event.
David Allen
19/04/12 – 16:17
With todays buses its a hard job to make them look smart, these are the exact opposite and it would be a hard job to make them look bad, no matter how hard some ‘Corporate image consultants’ may try.
Ronnie Hoye
19/04/12 – 17:51
I think Mulleys bought a total of four of these PD2s, I used to see one of them on a daily basis still in original livery working out of Mulleys ex Corona depot at Acton (near Sudbury, not London). It was said that Mulleys came to acquire them because the very enthusiastic Jack Mulley was fond of personally driving excursion coaches to Great Yarmouth in the 1960s when G. G Hilditch (later at Halifax/Todmorden) was General Manager at Great Yarmouth Corporation and so they came to know each other.
Nigel Turner
20/04/12 – 07:18
I feel the hand of Geoffrey Hilditch must have been behind the painting of the two PD2’s in Calderdale (Halifax) livery. Being an enthusiast as well as the manger must have been too much of a temptation to resist. In fairness though the two were of the newer PD2/12 batch and I used to see them on service around Todmorden when I lived there in the mid-1970’s. Needless to say they looked superb. Just to point out to Chris regarding his reference to Lancashire, Todmorden is in Yorkshire despite having a Lancashire postal address and in BR days the station was in the London Midland Region with maroon signs. It’s a bit of a mixed up sort of place with its geography.
Philip Halstead
20/04/12 – 07:19
I imagine that every contributor to these pages, myself included, would give almost anything to be able to ride on and even more to drive such a superb bus as the Todmorden PD2 or any vehicles of that era. The obvious care given to both the appearance of body work after such long and hard service and the equal care that must have been given to the mechanical side are of huge credit to it’s late lamented owners. Care such as that will never be given to todays guady, over-decorated and uncomfortable offerings to which no real thought seems to have been given, perhaps that will mean they won’t last as long and who would want or be able to preserve one of those electronic “marvels”.
Diesel Dave
20/04/12 – 07:20
It has always amused me that Todmorden Bus Station was always referred to as The Bus Departure Place. If the city fathers had not been economical with the stone work at the depot then there would have been no need for low bridge deckers.
Philip Carlton
20/04/12 – 07:21
Todmorden seems to have purchased a large number of all-Leyland double deckers over the years and one thing that surprises me is that some had very long lives with them and yet some were sold after twelve or thirteen years. Barton Transport bought two TD5’s from them in 1951 and got a further ten years service out of them. Later, in 1962, Barton’s purchased three PD2/1’s and again got long service from them. I think they knew that ex-Todmorden vehicles were very good purchases! David’s comment about the PD2’s being re-painted when Calderdale took over the fleet made me smile. I think that as good as they undoubtedly were, any other engineer would have retired them on acquisition but good old Mr Hilditch couldn’t resist the temptation to have them in his fleet!
Chris Barker
20/04/12 – 13:45
Wasn’t Todmordens town hall half in Lancashire and half in Yorkshire?
Roger Broughton
20/04/12 – 13:44
Philip Halstead’s comment on the ambiguous county status of Todmorden reminds me of the fact that, until 1888, the boundary ran right through the town. Between 1875 and 1888, dancers in the Town Hall ballroom were able to waltz across the boundary on each circuit! I used to do business with a cotton mill in Walsden (2 miles south-east) and they were definitely Lancastrian in accent, attitude and cricket persuasion! Indeed, the current Yorkshire-based Walsden and Todmorden cricket teams all still play for the Lancashire League. Reverting to a transport theme, had it not been for a delay in implementing the 1902 Todmorden Corporation Tramways Order, and the early introduction of pioneer motor buses in 1907, I doubt that we would now be discussing an all-lowbridge fleet. Todmorden was always a “missing link” in the Lancashire/Yorkshire tram network. Had their system been built, through-services may have been possible to Rochdale via Summit (assuming Todmorden adopted Rochdale’s standard gauge) but this would have precluded through running to Halifax via Hebden Bridge, as theirs was a 4ft system. Interestingly, in 1920, Halifax was actually authorised to extend their Hebden Bridge tram service to the Todmorden boundary but, of course, it was never built.
Paul Haywood
20/04/12 – 16:26
The original depot is still in existence and still in use by First. The ability of Daimler to provide a genuine low height Fleetline was one of the factors which meant they became the standard rear engined Halifax bus as they could enter the Millwood depot.
Chris Hough
20/04/12 – 16:27
It has often been said that Todmorden’s livery was dark and sombre – especially by those from ‘up the valley’ more used to Halifax’s colourful scheme. Although when newly painted the green shade appeared a kind of rich, dark olive, a combination of period paint technology and industrial pollution quickly turned the green very dark – almost black with a hint of green. Despite this – maybe even because of it – I personally thought they looked classy and dignified. TJOC buses always gave the impression of being extremely well maintained, both mechanically and bodily, and were always spotlessly clean inside. Though in its last years it was struggling to make ends meet financially, these standards of presentation never dropped, and the tradition continued under Calderdale JOC, and right into the WYPTE and Yorkshire Rider periods. Even in those times Tod’s workshops were very well equipped and their staff very capable of carrying out quite major work – including serious accident repairs – and Halifax would sometimes send their buses ‘down the valley’ to get them sorted. Sometimes Tod’ buses would be sent up to Halifax’s Elmwood workshops for servicing and repairs, and having been released for service by mid-afternoon would be used there for the rest of the day before been returned to their proper home. Halifax drivers appreciated this and would frequently comment how much better they ‘motored’ and above all how well their heaters and demisters always worked compared to their own.
John Stringer
21/04/12 – 08:30
Some excellent comments – I live in Walsden and we still have a good bus service, the Millwood depot is still in use and the route over the top from Hebden Bridge to Keighley is one of England’s most scenic. Yes the Town Hall was half in Lancashire and half in Yorkshire until 1889, when, under the 1888 Local Government Act I think, the boundary was moved westwards. We still have the OL (Oldham) postcode and 01706 (Rochdale) phone numbers. I think Portsmouth remained in Lancashire for a bit longer.
Geoff Kerr
21/04/12 – 08:31
With reference to Philip Carlton’s comment I have never heard the term “Bus Departure Place” used officially. The official name was “Bus Starting Centre” (or so I always understood) although I believe it’s now officially Todmorden Bus Station. How sad: why make it the same as everywhere else in stead of retaining something unique? Regardless of that, though, what a fabulous photo as many have already said, capturing not only the beautiful Leyland but also the essence of Hebden Bridge with the lovely, solid, stone buildings in the foreground and the precariously built terrace atop the hill behind. Can I also “cast a vote” in favour of the low depot roof? I’ve always had a soft spot for sunken gangways (not that they’re ideal for people of my height!) and for the proportions of most lowbridge buses. By the way, is Hebden Bridge Railway Station still maintained in a traditional style? It must be at least 10 years since I was last in it but it was beautifully preserved like a station on the K&WVR or similar.
Alan Hall
21/04/12 – 08:32
Many thanks to Philip for highlighting the fascinating and long standing saga of Todmorden’s eternal dilemma of allegiance. I actually worded my final comment somewhat misleadingly, and my reference to “Leyland and Lancashire real bus operation” was simply a commendation of the splendid standards of Preston Corporation and of Ribble.
Chris Youhill
22/04/12 – 07:31
In the mid sixties, I was working in Melling and travelled daily on Ribble route 301 from Liverpool, usually on a PD3, either the early Burlingham or the later MCW ones. All these buses seemed to be governed the top speed between 25 and 30 mph. If a bus was running late for any reason it ran late for the whole journey as the driver was unable to make up the lost time.
Jim Hepburn
21/05/12 – 08:10
Thanks guys for your very interesting and colourful comments about Todmorden J.O.C.s buses, the 2nd Municipal Corporation to run motor buses. The first picture is particularly interesting to myself since I passed my PSV test on Number 5 the previous year and, (who knows) it could even be me driving it? Todmorden was operated like a happy ‘Family’ concern under a gentleman of a manager, William Edward Metcalfe, (or ‘Teddy’). The livery was Brunswick Green & Cream and when buses required painting they were done so by Jim Hoyle who travelled from Bacup over Sharnyford to get to his work on a motor bike. Despite some terrible winters, especially over Deerplay Moor, Sharneyford or Oxenhope Moor, I don’t recall our services ever being stopped, Snow, Fog or Ice were no obstacle for us due to a terrific team of Todmorden Council workers who kept the roads open for us, whereas Rochdale could stop if the wind changed direction and Halifax were often not much better. The reason for low bridge type deckers was the height of the original eastern end of Millwood Depot but the following three extensions were built higher. Also, as is said, the Hungrtwood Arch at Portsmouth required a delicate approach at an angle, when the early upper saloon passengers were warned not to stand up. The replacement iron railway bridge removed that problem. The boundary always causes arguments but yes, Todmorden is in Yorkshire, for administrative purposes but the physical boundary cannot be removed, ie; the river ‘Walsden Water’ runs under and from one corner of the town hall to exit at the opposite corner of the round end and as has already been pointed out, ballroom dancers continually and unknowingly changed from Yorkshire into Lancashire and back again. That actually placed the Depot in Yorkshire with the Bus Station in Lancashire. To many residents the town is still half and half and the discussion will continue but to many of us it will always be Red Rose Lancashire. Sorry about the last bit but it keeps everyone interested.
Ken Lobley
22/05/12 – 07:40
A little late in the day, but I’ve just come across this postcard of a scene taken in Hebden Bridge. It shows (left) one of Todmorden’s 1928 piano-fronted TD1’s, (centre) a Halifax tram returning on the 8-mile route back to the city, and (right) a Halifax AEC Regal (JX 1955) about to set off for Heptonstall (presumably before the extension into the notoriously narrow village?). This photo is also shown in the excellent “Halifax Corporation Tramways” (Thornton/King) publication and has a date of 1932. However, my postcard gives a precise date of 9th August 1931 and is credited to a Mr S.L. Smith. The Todmorden bus is, of course, just about to make the same turn out of Cheetham Street as our PD2 posting above. Note the pre-steam cleaned bank building on the older view. Remarkably, most of these buildings are still extant, apart from the mill bridge in the far distance.
Paul Haywood
06/07/12 – 14:37
What a cracking posting with some superb period ‘atmos pics’ as they were once called.
Roger Broughton
14/09/12 – 06:47
Being a Tod lad I spent many happy hours riding on the ‘PD2s’ my favourite being number 2. Does anyone know who restored her and where she is now or did any of the other PD2s survive because if so, I would be very interested in acquiring one!
Paul Stothart
18/09/12 – 07:31
I sincerely hope that they sandblasted the bank building – had they steam cleaned it, it might not now be standing.. Incidentally, could someone perhaps confirm why there were apparently two power wires for the tramway – was it to avoid a frog at the diverging points which I presume were located not far up the road? Would the conductor have had to manually move the trolleypole to the opposite wire?
David Call
5 minutes later
Ignore the above dopey comment – as it was a terminus, the conductor would have had to move the trolleypole anyway!
David Call
19/09/12 – 07:06
…but why are there two tram wires for one track? Don’t tell me- the electricity went the other way! This is presumably just before the river bridge, and the single tram track just stops: did the tram always do so too?
Joe
10/10/12 – 09:14
In reply to Paul Stothart. (14.09.12), Todmorden PD2/1 Fleet number 2 was a terrible bus to drive when it was in service because it had a very poor lock in one direction. It was preserved simply because it was bus No2 which did the inaugural run in 1907 due to No1 having frozen to the ground. No2 was in the care of Todmorden Antiquarian Society for some years but unable to finance the upkeep, it went into the care of David Powell who had a wonderful restoration done on it, correcting the poor steering lock in the process. The bus was resident down south the last I heard of it. Another PD2/1 was partly restored on a farm in south midlands some years ago but I lost track of it. A TJOC PD2/12 was destined for restoration after Halifax decommissioned it but I think that one has been scrapped? Leopard/Willowbrook No9 is still doing the rallies in West Yorkshire with John Flowers at the helm and No15, (ex=Tow Bus) is currently under restoration to its original single deck bus form by Mike Sutcliffe, ‘The Leyland Man’, who also owns the famous open top Leyland G2 No14. One of the Leopard/Seddon-Pennine buses from TJOC was offered to me when Blue Bus sold it but I lost track of that one also. The one’s that did have a possible future in restoration were usually purchased from Mulley’s but I guess they have all long gone now?
Ken Lobley (ex-TJOC)
05/12/12 – 17:59
Hi there, I have enjoyed reading the messages on your page & seeing a dear old Tod bus. Happy days when my late father Ted Silby drove for them from around 1940/41 until 1955 when we as a family moved south into East Anglia where he became a driver for Eastern National. Dad always loved those Leyland buses with their powerful engines that could tackle the steep hills. Many were the stories of digging out a bus with a shovel in the winter snows, or even having to walk down to get help. Wearing a heavy great-coat & flying boots to keep out the freezing cold through the cab floor. Memories of Todmorden & those buses went hand in hand. I remember the name Teddy Metcalfe, & also Alver Brown who I think was Dad’s conductor. I still have some bus tickets from my childhood. Also my Dad was the first person to drive a Tod bus up Haworth High Street unofficially. A treat for the locals, but as he was new to the route he forgot to stop at the bottom. It’s a long time since this tale was told so I can’t recall how he turned around at the top, except carefully! Happy days to be sure, remembered fondly.
Jean Wilson
06/12/12 – 07:02
Nice to hear the tales of your father, Jean. Greatcoat and flying boots – more a case of ‘Are you flying tonight’ rather than driving!
Chris Hebbron
06/12/12 – 11:50
Just by coincidence, Tod. 2 was spotted parked in First Halifax’s Skircoat Garage last week.
John Stringer
06/12/12 – 17:33
I hear the owner of Tod 2 has good connections with First and is staying at Skircoat
Geoff S
08/12/12 – 15:29
This is the splendid TJOC coats of arms device still carried by their equally splendid 1934 Leyland TS6 towing wagon (formerly bus no. 15 – YG 7831) until its withdrawal in 1971. Note how it still bears the London, Midland and Scottish Railway device, despite this having been swallowed up into British Railways as far back as 1948. Several of the bus fleet carried this version also well into the 1960’s. That was (and in many ways still is) Todmorden for you – always caught in a wonderful time warp !
John Stringer
09/12/12 – 07:52
I understand in modern times certain Volvo double deckers allocated to Todmorden carried the council crest on the radiator grille.
Philip Carlton
09/12/12 – 11:49
There was always a fierce local pride amongst the Todmorden staff, most of whom never really accepted that they were still anything other than Todmorden JOC. ‘Interference’ by Halifax in any of their affairs was strongly resented and opposed, and visitors from ‘up the valley’ were usually treated with superficial politeness but regarded with deep suspicion ! “Tell ’em nowt” was the rule. An R-registered Fleetline (7006) was repainted into full TJOC livery in the 1980’s, and it kept this until withdrawal. Then an R-registered PSU4/Plaxton (8534) that had been at Todmorden since new was put into TJOC livery, though towards the end it was transferred to Halifax – but still retaining the livery. A number of the F-prefix Cummins-engined Olympian/NCME’s allocated to Tod’ were also fitted with small plates with the town’s coat of arms on their grilles. Finally after all these had gone, and after a great deal of pressure had been brought to bear, a Volvo Olympian/NCME (31737) was put into the TJOC livery. After its withdrawal 31737 was stored for quite a while pending a decision what was to happen to it, then just when everyone suspected that it had gone for scrap it was reported that it had been secured for preservation. Nowadays Tod’ does not have its own permanent allocation, and buses are simply sent ‘down there’ from Halifax as required. When they return to Halifax for servicing they are replaced by whatever is available at the time, so the chance of there ever being a bus in a dedicated livery again is very unlikely.
John Stringer
10/12/12 – 07:34
As a postscript to the picture of the emblem with the LMS coat of arms, here is a view of the final style, incorporating the BR double arrow logo – although using traditional gold transfers rather than the “official” red and white. It would be interesting to know whether the double arrow ever appeared as part of the livery – e.g. on a feeder service – on any other buses. I have always assumed that the continued use of the LMS version was simply a question of using up the existing stock of transfers until they ran out. Did the BR lion and wheel logo (in either version) ever make an appearance?
Also attached a view of No.5 with its three siblings in Mulley’s yard at Ixworth. This was taken in October 1971, and the lack of blinds suggests that this was shortly after their arrival and before entering service.
Alan Murray-Rust
14/01/13 – 13:32
Joe on 19/4/2012 said the depot was the reason for the lowbridge buses. Well here it is with Titan 18 departing to do some midday extra short workings that were a feature of TJOC operations. Some great comments and this is one operator I do miss. Pity I was never exploratory enough to go to Mankinholes, it was always a case of the bus might not come back.
Ian Lynas
12/02/13 – 17:04
Let me add my own thoughts to this fascinating stream of memories. I was born in Orkney but moved down to the Summit/Littleborough Area so lived in the Rochdale Corporation Passenger Transport Dept area. We actually lived about 100 yards from the Summit Inn which was the joint meeting place of Rochdale and Tod, so we are virtually on the edge of Rochdale latterly Selnec and Greater Manchester operating area. The oldest bus I remember seeing was one of the FWT batch. I always thought the livery was drab but they were remarkably long lived a testament to the fleet engineers. I mind seeing a Todmorden bus on frequent occasions in the evening picking up workers at Fothergill and Harveys Mill at Factory End in Summit. To my young eyes the buses never were well patronised so was not entirely surprised that there was a merger at the end. The only times I ever saw them quite busy was on Good Friday when there was a popular Fair held in Todmorden. I also remember seeing 3 Todmorden buses in the evening at the terminus at Summit which I thought a bit peculiar. I remember the 20 service on Saturdays which was express run to Rochdale latterly by single deckers of the 1961/2/4 batches, Leyland/East Lancashire.. My father and I visited the depot and saw the Leyland breakdown truck. It would be interesting to think what the buses would have been like if the bus depot entrance had been built higher. In my childhood and youth I regularly went to Sunday school and on this occasion I think we must have combined with other Sunday Schools and for our outing we were going to Fleetwood and the weather forecast on the Saturday was for torrential rain and it rained and rained. I will never forget the journey on the way home. Every stanchion, pole etc had items of wet clothing hanging up to dry. The buses were tough an rugged as I remember buses going up over Sharneyford to Bacup which was a big test of endurance. I wonder how many Volvos would last as long as Todmorden buses.
Andrew Wylie
Post script which is really a question. Did some withdrawn Todmorden buses end up in the fleet of W Alexanders fleet up in Scotland. I know that they had lowbridge Leylands in Montrose and elsewhere. If they did I wonder if some photos survive
13/02/13 – 04:32
Five prewar Todmorden buses did go to Alexander’s in 1938 via the dealer Millburn Motors of Glasgow. They were Leyland TD1’s of 1928/29 numbered 3, 7, 13, 14 & 18 (WW 6759, 6797, 6800, 6801 & 8958). 13 & 14 were not used and were returned to the dealer. 3, 7 & 18 were taken into stock but did not last long, being withdrawn in 1939/40. Another Scottish operator – Baxter’s of Airdrie – also took five Tiger TS8’s and two Titan TD5’s in 1950/51. No postwar Todmorden buses crossed the border.
John Stringer
14/02/13 – 07:07
Just to amplify the point made by Andrew, Todmorden Bus Depot had low roof trusses throughout the later extension at the western end. The original depot would accept highbridge buses but once in, they had to be reversed out! Eh, we had one or two normal height Halifax buses with damaged roofs when they had called in at Todmorden for some assistance!
Ian Wild
31/05/13 – 17:43
The BR Lion and Wheel logo was never used on Todmorden buses. The LMS crest lasted until at least 1961 (!) and was eventually replaced by the plain words “British Railways”, to which the double arrow was later added. Some coaches in the Halifax JOC fleet had the BR double arrow on the rear.
Geoff Kerr
30/01/14 – 15:45
When Calderdale JOC came into existence one of the TJOC Titans received full Halifax livery One day in 1971 I was walking along Stanningley Road in Leeds when the 4.10pm Halifax bus came roaring up the dual carriageway. It was none other than the aforementioned Titan which had made its break for freedom and got to Leeds. It was in amazingly good fettle for such a vintage machine it certainly showed a number of Leeds two door Atlanteans a clean pair of heels. Its rasping exhaust could be heard echoing of buildings for several minutes after it passed.
Chris Hough
30/01/14 – 18:00
The bus painted in full Halifax colours was Halifax fleet number 356 and lasted for quite a while after withdrawal behind Elmwood Depot potentially for preservation. Eventually it deteriorated to such a degree that the scrapyard was the only option.
Ian Wild
31/01/14 – 07:09
355 and 356 both received the Halifax livery, 355 in August 1971 but 356 a little later – it was still in Todmorden livery in early September. My photo of the Bus Starting Centre just below the top of this extensive posting was taken on the day I first saw 355 – it’s just visible amongst the others all still in Todmorden livery.
David Beilby
31/01/14 – 10:09
Ian Wild mentions a former Tod’ PD2 being parked up behind Elmwood Garage after withdrawal. Here is what was by then WYPTE’s 3355 so parked, along with withdrawn 1962 Leopard/Weymann 3033 and 1963 PD3/4/Weymann 3053, some time in early 1976.
John Stringer
28/03/14 – 07:03
Hi Chris Youhill, to endorse Chris Hebbrons comments I must add my own, it’s always a treat to read your “driftings”, nostalgia in great bucket loads, especially your mention of the 6 Leyland PD1s that were acquired by Ledgards from Bristol Omnibus Co. I always felt that Leyland Motors repute and the esteem in which they were held throughout the world was a classic example of the ‘way that it used to be’, and rarely matched today,sadly. As a footnote to my driftings, I will be staying in the Hebden Bridge area later this year, it’s a pity that the streets will be empty of PD1s, that’s a fact. I will watch for more of your driftings Chris, thanks.
Dave Knapp
28/03/14 – 09:10
Dave K – I’m afraid that the streets of Hebden Bridge have always been empty of PD1s, Todmorden went from TD7s to PD2s and Halifax didn’t buy any Leyland double-decks at all until their own PD2s. Now this is something I should really have more sense than to try and do, i.e. ‘correct’ Chris Youhill, but there are a couple of statements on which I’d like to comment. First of all, the one that the two ex-Ribble rebodied PD1As were from the same batch as the four Leyland-bodied ones. In 1947 Ribble bought 48 PD1As, 10 with Leyland highbridge bodies (2470-9) and 38 with Brush lowbridge (2480-2517), and it was, of course, 22 of the Brush lowbridges which were rebodied by Burlingham – I make the Ledgard ones ex-Ribble 2484 and 2498. As to whether all 48 were from the same ‘batch’, they did have identical chassis, they all came in the same year, and the registrations did follow on from the highbridges to the lowbridges, so – er, okay then. Regarding the source of the fifth lowbridge PD2, it actually came to Ledgards from Eynons of Trimsaran, but had been new, not to West Wales (the independent), but to Western Welsh (the BET company). I have always been a bit suspicious about EUH959, since Eynons were the sort of operator who bought their double-deckers second hand and usually used them to the end of their useful life. Perhaps the fact of EUH959 being lowbridge went against it, since I’m not aware that Eynons had any requirement for lowbridge vehicles.
David Call
28/03/14 – 09:14
Many thanks David for that very humbling response, and I do indeed take great pleasure from keeping alive accurate “atmosphere” of what were undoubtedly the good old days of service provision – days which were sensibly regulated and free of excessive profiteering rather than sensible returns on investment. Just to add to the discussion on the “all Leyland” aspect, I passed my PSV test on one of the six PD1s which Ledgard bought new in 1946 at the start of a whole new era after the gloom of WW2 – the Ministry examiner was a sombre but fair man with no idea how much that hour on unfamiliar roads in West Leeds meant to me. As I descended, for the first time in my life, a long hill in Armley in third gear a voice through the cab window sighed “There are four gears on this vehicle.” I’m sure this was a trick as I approached a T junction with poor visibility – I stayed in third gear and would no doubt have been failed for changing up to fourth. JUM 378 must have “known” how anxious I was to pass – it was freshly arrived from a morning peak journey and everything was “just right” and it behaved like a dream. When I returned to Otley depot the “No nonsense Brummie” manager emerged from his office and asked “Have you passed Kid ?” I replied “yes”, but that I’d had to endure a skit from the examiner to the effect that I needed a lot more practice before being let loose on the Public. Our boss repeated “I said have you passed Kid?” So again I said “Well, yes.” With a smile he simply said “Number 14 tomorrow Kid” and returned to his office to fill another gap with a name. “Number 14” was a very taxing late turn on the incredibly busy Leeds – Guiseley – Ilkley service which was sixteen miles in 53 minutes and steep hills and full loads galore. The bus was the glorious PD1/ECW LAE 12, a former native of Bristol, and like the test vehicle of the previous day, JUM 378, it behaved like a dream, pulling well and with a fair turn of speed and a clutch and gearbox like silk. That was a Friday evening, and I was given the same duty (but two hours longer, an extra round trip) on the Saturday when I found myself in the seemingly enormous 1952 U, one of the six AEC Regent V/Roe beauties. I say “seemingly enormous” – it just shows what a difference can be made by one foot longer and six inches wider, oh and that huge bonnet. How I’d love to turn the clock back to 1961 and do it all again.
Chris Youhill
28/03/14 – 17:39
Dave K, You may see a PD1a/Leyland in Hebden Bridge when you visit. as Wigan 34 may be out on a few weddings this summer.
Geoff S
08/04/14 – 16:54
Thanks for the tip Geoff S. A lookout will be maintained ! As an afterthought Chris Youhill, your remarks about well behaved PD1s,we used to have a route in Bristol with a sharp left hand turn just as the gradient steepened from medium to bloody steep, and with practice, one could change down from 3rd to 2nd then 2nd to 1st (if needed),without using the clutch pedal,of course,perfectly matching all the revolving parts was a definite prerequisite,and as you say it was quietly satisfying once mastered ! Oh, and It was not quite the same experience if done with a Bristol or Gardner, what good days they were in spite of the long hours.
Dave Knapp
09/04/14 – 08:16
A little misunderstanding and friendly disagreement here Dave – I can honestly say that I have never changed gear without using the clutch on any vehicle in my life. While I admit that seemingly perfect changes can be achieved by “matching” the necessary speeds I’m quite sure that hidden damage and/or wear is imposed upon transmission couplings and differentials etc by this practice. Just another point of view I accept, and I have insufficient detailed mechanical knowledge to back up my theory, but that’s just the way I’ve always felt about it. As you say though silent smooth changes on the PS1s/PD1s were very satisfying indeed, reinforced I always felt by a definite hint of prewar TS/TD dulcet gearbox tones.
Chris Youhill
30/03/15 – 08:30
I had the pleasure of driving every TJOC bus in the early 1960s. Very reliable and easy to drive. I have fond memories of driving a bus to Old Town and, at the Pecket Well right turn, getting stuck in deep snow and having to call for breakdown assistance. The breakdown crew arrived and decided it was to risky to free the double decker bus so a decision was made to leave the bus stuck in the snow and ice. The bus was left, with the engine running overnight, and recovered next morning (engine still running!). The weather was atrocious but bus services were resumed very quickly, a testament to the ethos of the TJOC.
Eric Nothard
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
28/01/19 – 09:32
Reading through the comments, there was very little about the people who drove the Tod buses. My mum was the first woman to pass her test and get her PSV licence in a Tod bus in the early days of WW2. There were a couple of women drivers then as well as conductors or “clippies”. She had some interesting tales to tell about driving conditions then. She described driving up to Old Town and Pecket Well in deep snow, because the buses “kept running” regardless. We used to play a game in the car where mum closed her eyes and told us where all the bus stops were. She was usually spot on!
Janet
30/01/19 – 06:47
Janet, was your mum driving at the time??!!!!! That would have been a feat!
Isle of Man Road Services Ltd 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/1 Leyland H30/26R
I received the above two photographs along with a shot of a Tiger Cub from Michael Bishop with the following:-
“I was on the Isle of Man to explore the railways, but found the IOMR had just closed! Lord Ailsa came along the following year, which is why there is still something left. Another reason for going everywhere by bus. So I’m afraid I know nothing about buses, although I remember the bus I took the interior shot of made a lovely noise. It seems to have LEYLAND on the gearbox(?) casing. So I cannot tell you more about them. The bus was at Peel and taken on 28.5.66.”
“Not knowing anything about buses” in my opinion isn’t a good enough reason for not showing an internal shot of such a classic vehicle.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Bishop
15/05/12 – 18:06
Don’t come much better than all Leyland PD2s, but can anyone explain why Isle of Man always had these peculiar off balance upper deck ventilators (ONLY on the near-side)?
David Oldfield
16/05/12 – 07:51
I never understood that either, but it did make the IOMRS fleet rather distinctive. (I have a feeling I have seen a photo of a similarly equipped PD2 with another operator, but I can’t remember where or with whom). Very nice to see that tidy interior shot too. It reminds me of Barton’s second hand no. 754 (GUT 455) ex-Allens, Mountsorrel, which operated regularly in the early 60s on our route 15 (Ilkeston – Long Eaton – Sawley).
Stephen Ford
16/05/12 – 07:52
Not sure why this style was followed but Widnes also did the same thing on their vehicles
Chris Hough
16/05/12 – 07:52
Widnes Corporation used the same arrangement which I can only assume was to give upper-deck passengers a choice of the fresh-air treatment by sitting on the nearside or for the more delicate a chance to keep out of the draught by sitting on the offside. I don’t recall the arrangement being used by any other operators and it certainly spoiled the appearance of the vehicles. I would be interested to learn if my assumption is correct.
Philip Halstead
16/05/12 – 08:58
Just clutching at straws, but I wonder if the odd window arrangement could possibly be to avoid a direct “wind tunnel” effect from the offside windscreen and down the staircase, to escape from the platform.
Chris Youhill
17/05/12 – 08:40
Having lived in Widnes in the 70s, Widnes Corporation were not doing their passengers any favours with all the chemical factories in the area!
Jim Hepburn
30/06/12 – 11:26
As far as I know it was to do with cost – IoMRS were not known for spending anymore than was absolutely necessary, the same window arrangement continued right through until the last new d/d purchases in 1964, a one pane window was cheaper than an opening hopper or slider. Equally saloon heaters were largely not provided, nor were grabrails. Whilst I can’t just recall the grabrail specification on the PD2 shown, other than what is visible on the image, the 1964 batch of PD3s had head height rails only installed above the two lower deck side seats, whilst the sole upright rail, other than on the platform area, was at the top of the stairs. No other grabrails were fitted, which meant conducting – or alighting – the bus whilst on the move err…interesting.
busbus
21/08/12 – 07:37
I remember the arrival of this and its 17 sisters in 1949, and worked on them as a seasonal conductor 1958-61. I can confirm the Company sought economy in everything; none of its buses had direction indicators, relying instead on a white band on the right sleeve of drivers’ uniforms when stuck out of the cab window. Drivers claimed that when Leyland staff received an order for buses “without this, without that or the other” they would say “It’s that b***** IOM Road Services again”. Due to lack of grab rails, on a lively journey I used to press the flat of my hand against the ceiling to keep upright.
Mike Jones
03/01/13 – 06:34
Nice to see this pic. I’m currently working on similar bus KMN 501 but will restoring it as Liverpool L428 JKB 580.
Rob
03/01/13 – 10:45
North Western was another all Leyland PD2 operator with the same ventilation arrangement. The standard Colin Bailey body throughout its life and various modifications was offered as standard with solid front upper deck windows, the opening vents could be specified as an extra. Many operators bought the standard package but some quickly received complaints of lack of ventilation, especially in the summer when tobacco smoke would add to warmth and the side window ventilators removed little of the fug. They then retrofitted one or two vents. North Western’s examples were lowbridge bodies which made the problem worse and they quickly fitted a nearside vent window, in their case the reason for the location being the offside was occupied by the gangway.
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
