A 1950 H30/26R all Leyland Titan of Newcastle Corporation. One of 52 of the type delivered between 1948 and 1950. PD2/1 1948 registrations LVK 115/136 fleet numbers 115/136 1950 registrations NBB 281 – 300 fleet numbers 281/300 PD2/3 1950 registrations NVK 301/310 fleet numbers 301/310 In addition, there were six L27/26R PD2/1 low bridge versions 1949 registrations LVK 6/11 fleet numbers 6/11 The all Leyland Titan was well built and reliable, and as good a looking vehicle as anything else that was around at the time, but sometimes its what’s in the background that makes a photo interesting rather than the subject matter itself. NBB 286 is heading south towards Newcastle City Centre and is about enter Barras Bridge. The large building is the Hancock Museum, which is at the junction of Claremont Road, what looks like a Duple butterfly ‘chassis unknown’ heading north on the Great North Road, which at that time was still the A1. A 1949/50 MCCW bodied BUT 9641T trolleybus is coming out of Jesmond Road, so the year is pre 1966. Behind it is a Percy Main vehicle which will be on the service 3 – 5 or 11, it could be either an Atlantean or a Weymann bodied Daimler Fleetline. One Titan from the Newcastle fleet has survived LVK 123 and is in its original 1948 blue livery, but bearing in mind the number that were produced, it seems that not that many are still around.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
02/12/14 – 05:29
Ronnie, I think that this photograph was taken before May 1965 when the trolleybus services along Jesmond Road were converted to motorbus operation. I always thought that there was something magical and special about the cypher A1 and name ‘Great North Road’. Over the years the A1 has had quite a few different routes through Tyneside and the numbers now allocated to former sections of the route give few clues to their former glory.
Another from Newcastle City Libraries archives. From the caption at the bottom, the location is West Clayton Street Newcastle, which is literally just round the corner from the Central Station. The date is 1952; the buses are lined up ready to depart for Gosforth Park Racecourse, about three miles north of the City. I suspect it would be on the day of the Northumberland Plate, know as the Pitman’s Derby, this race meeting always attracts huge crowds, and is run on the last Saturday in June. An interesting line up, headed by an all Leyland Titan PD2/3 from 1950, NVK 304; then two MCCW bodied Daimlers, the one in front is one of the 1947/8 KVK registered CV6G series, the second could be from the same batch, or it could be a 1938 FVK registered CW5G. Next in line, looks like a 1947/8 Roe bodied Daimler CV6G, they were also KVK registrations. Looking at the outward swoop of the lower body panels, my guess would be that number five is a 1946 Weymann bodied AEC Regent II. I can’t make out enough detail to have a stab at the rest.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
23/12/14 – 17:12
A very appetising line-up! Never realised until recently that Newcastle had had any Birmingham-style MCCW-bodied Daimlers. How did that come about? One of my very favourite bus designs, by the way.
Ian T
06/01/15 – 16:24
I believe Newcastle Transport was desperate for new stock, and Daimler and Metro-Cammell could offer quick delivery. The bodies were to Birmingham spec, including the single aperture front destination blind, though livery and upholstery were to Newcastle standard. They were delivered in the blue and cream livery. There’s a photo of one in the later yellow and cream livery but with its Birmingham style indicators in Alan Townsin’s Best Best of British Buses volume 11, post war Daimlers. The destination blinds must have been changed to the standard Newcastle pattern quite quickly. I’ve seen a photo of one on Facebook dated 1950 so,fitted.
Richard S
06/01/15 – 16:26
There is a follow-up to this post with pictures at this link.
Southdown Motor Services Ltd 1950 Leyland PD2/12 Northern Counties FCH28/16RD
In the post about Southdown’s Leyland Titan PD2 756 (MUF 456), Diesel Dave made mention of Southdown’s one-off 700 and Michael Hampton said he saw it in Bognor Depot’s Yard. KUF 700 was Southdown’s 700, a 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/12 with Northern Counties FCH28/16RD bodywork and was intended to be the first of a fleet of such vehicles for use on express services from the South Coast to London. It began work on the Eastbourne to London service, but proved totally unsuitable, suffering excessive body-roll and under-performance, being overweight and therefore under-powered. By 1952, it was relegated to private hire and bus work. This photo was taken at Bognor Depot in 1959, with the bus still looking remarkably chipper and still possessing its coach seats, although with its roof lights painted over. In this limbo situation, it somehow survived in service until 1966, when it was taken into Portslade works for conversion to a breakdown tender, but the work remained unfinished and the vehicle languished there for some six years, eventually being scrapped there in 1973. Sixteen years active life for a bus, which was somewhat of an embarrassment, could be considered quite an achievement, as it happens. The lower front bears a definite resemblance to Southdown’s later Queen Mary’s and the body, as a whole, still has the overall look of NCME’s pre-war models, notably the Leicester AEC Renowns of 1939, a design not destined to last much longer.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
15/01/15 – 06:10
It is wonderful to see Chris’s colour photo of Southdown 700 as I only have a B/W photo which I bought in 1958 from the late Eric Surfleet of Lancing. This shows 700 on an excursion still in it’s original livery which had green window surrounds and the usual dark green lining on the horizontal beading also the corner bumpers on the front and rear,the bumpers are still on the front at least even after it’s repaint. The top deck coving panels were I believe always translucent and not clear glass. Sad to say despite living in the area at the time, and attending school in Hailsham which was on it’s route, I don’t recall seeing this fine vehicle.
Diesel Dave
15/01/15 – 09:31
Thanks to Chris for the great colour shot of 700, and Diesel Dave for it in it’s earlier more public life. As I said in the earlier posting, my usual sightings of it were c. 1960-62, and it was always in the Bognor yard. But it was always in a different position, so clearly saw some use. It does seem strange that East Yorkshire and Ribble operated a small fleet of such vehicles with (presumably) some success, while Southdown, usually effective in their plans, found they could not make 700 work on the coach work originally envisaged. A fleet of such vehicles on the 31 had to wait until the Queen Mary PD3s arrived, and they didn’t have coach seats!
Michael Hampton
15/01/15 – 10:32
What a wonderful photo – thanks Chris for posting it. As many readers will know, this vehicle has generated interested on the SCT61 website and it is good to see these two further views of this magnificent coach. When it was downgraded to bus duties, did it keep the luggage areas in the lower saloon? If so, a capacity of just 16 must have been a major factor in its demise. A similar fate befell the East Yorkshire and Ribble d/d coaches but at least they managed to get 20 and 22 seats respectively in their lower saloons.
Paul Haywood
15/01/15 – 11:21
Following Michael H’s comments, here’s a photo of a Leyland PD2 49-seat Ribble White Lady. There were 50 of them, in two batches, with bodies (5-bay) by Burlingham and 4-bay East Lancs ones. There seems an irony to put a lowbridge body on a so-called coach, but it did not seem to affect custom!. Ribble – //tinyurl.com/os4f47k And here’s a photo of East Yorkshire’s Leyland PD2 with Roe normal height body. East Yorkshire – //www.sct61.org.uk/ey568 There was something very satisfying about double-deck coach design of this period, even conventional half-cab types. I recall the West Yorkshire version of a Bristol K6B Scarborough Express, way down the OBP page, the upper photo, not the lower abomination! SEE //tinyurl.com/ono24n2
Chris Hebbron
23/02/15 – 14:31
I remember 700 KUF 700 very well as a school boy in Bognor yard where I spent most of my after school time. Bob Mustchin the foreman in the garage took me under his wing and many a time I helped him shunt it around the yard when it been dumped from a private hire or bus relief working. This led to me buying one of the left luggage offices D689 HCD 449 which has been fantastically restored now by Bob Gray. The yard has a vivid memory for me with a flint stone boundary with access only through the bus station rear doors until the retail development created an entrance from Queeensway giving access directly into the yard and changing the in/out pattern for local services and coaches. I remember the transition from TD5’s TS7/8’s with PD2 1’s through to underfloor Leylands and the arrival of PD2/12’s to PD 3’s
Clifford Jones
13/03/15 – 07:12
I have posted my memories of this vehicle already however I would like to add that the B/W photo of it showing an excursion blind in taken in Bognor Regis High Street with 700 heading west as Lloyds bank is in the background. My family banked there with the International store visible to the right including trees in the foreground which were a feature in the High Street of that era. I have a photo of 700 solitarily languishing in the corner of Bognor yard against a corner of the flint wall overshadowing the Queensway development which would shortly see the demise of the wall. My memories of Southdown in Bognor my birth place are being prepared.
Clifford Jones
13/03/15 – 16:52
I, for one, will look forward to your jottings of Southdown in Bognor Regis, Clifford. I lived in Pompey for 20 years, the Western boundary of Southdown. I travelled on its two most Westerly routes (I think), from Portsmouth to Warsash and Portsmouth to the somewhat mundane place name, Meon Hut! Your mention of International Stores reminds me of all the other grocery stores of the time: Home & Colonial, Pearks, Maypole Dairies, David Greig and, of course, Sainsbury, before it became a supermarket. Other, later stores/supermarkets were MacFisheries (our first local supermarket), Victor Value (bought by Tesco), Bejam, Kwiksave and Somerfield. But I digress!
Chris Hebbron
14/03/15 – 12:50
Chris, you left out Lipton’s, another of the names from our nostalgic past before the present age of bland uniformity.
Roger Cox
14/03/15 – 16:14
Chris, the place you are thinking of west of Portsmouth on a Southdown route is the West Meon Hut. It’s a pub at the junction of the A32 and A272. The actual West Meon village is nearby. A friend of mine once owned an RM stored near here, and it could be a useful venue once we returned from a rally day when the RM had finished it’s day out. I don’t think the Southdown route terminated here, though short workings might have done. It was the 38, and in the 1950’s I remember Guy Arab utilities thundering up Southwick Hill Road out of Cosham heading for Southwick, Wickham and Droxford. At some point a railway closure entered the picture, and the route was extended to Alton. However, the usual buses then were saloons, such as the 1500 series Royal Tigers or 620 series Tiger Cubs. Strangely, I don’t recall these so well, but have seen photos in various Southdown books in my collection. I too will be interested to see Clifford’s Bognor Regis notes – I was always fascinated with the occasional visit to Chichester and Bognor with their own set of routes down to the Witterings, Sidlesham, etc.
Michael Hampton
16/03/15 – 06:43
Roger C – I should have remembered Liptons, but there wasn’t one around my area. Michael H – It was a 1500 series Royal Tiger around 1964, after they’d been converted to OMO operation. I went with GF and friend with his GF, too. We had lunch at the pub there. The bus performed well, but was a bit creaky, I recall. Nice-looking vehicles, though. You mention the austerity Guy Arabs thundering up the hill. Did they have 5 or 6LW engines, or a mixture of both, or did Southdown upgrade them at some time. I only travelled on them to and from the Hayling Ferry, when they were open-toppers and never noticed what they were on dead-flat Hayling Island!
Chris Hebbron
16/03/15 – 11:54
Chris, I don’t recall whether the Guys I remember had 5LW or 6LW engines. I don’t have access to my SEC books at the moment, but I think Southdown had a mixture as new in the war, and they did swap engines around afterwards, too. Will have to investigate later, unless others have more immediate knowledge.
Michael Hampton
17/03/15 – 06:16
Economic, Grandways, Gateway (didn’t they become Somerfield?), Hillards, and perhaps most recently Jacksons. I think Economic, Grandways, and Hillards were local to the Yorkshire area. I wonder if there is an “Old Grocery Photos” website where people are posting “not really to do with grocery shops but County Motors . . .”. Local ITV stations seem to have disappeared. One, very small, thing that seems to have bucked the trend is bus stop flags: the old Department for the Environment standard style of the early 1970s now seems to be in retreat in many places . . . such a shame about the buses stopping at them.
Philip Rushworth
17/03/15 – 16:49
They must be Yorkshire ones, Philip, I’ve only heard of Gateway/Somerfield, the latter of which has become the Co-op. I believe, which we’ve all heard of! The simple black on white bus stop flags are disappearing fast, in favour of ‘busy’ multi-coloured ones where the bus image is hardly discernable; at least that’s ‘the Stagecoach way’. I thought the original ones were an early attempt at helping those with impaired vision – they certainly don’t help now!
Chris Hebbron
18/03/15 – 06:58
This is only the beginning… Maypole, Meadow Dairy, Gallons, Thrift Stores, Melias, Home & Colonial… then there were the prominent grocers/bakers in every town – Arthur Davy in Sheffield, Hagenbachs, Hodgson & Hepworths in Doncaster, Vaux Bros in Ponty (Chris), Websters in Wakefield, Silvios in Bradford… how do I connect this to Old Bus Photos? Many Doncaster Corporation Buses had a big sunburst tween decks, advertising Dysons Flour, and these seemed always to be on derelict deckers in scrapyards or the “bus” ? canteen at Marshgate in Doncaster which peeped over the North Bridge Wall. How accurate is that bit of nostalgia therapy?
Joe
18/03/15 – 06:59
I’ve found some facts about the utility Guys and here are a few pertinent ones. Southdown received 100 examples: only the first two were Arab I’s. About 25% in total received 6LW engines, randomly supplied. Many 6LW-engined ones had engine swaps with 5LW engines before disposal. Not all open-topped conversions were fitted with 6LW engines, but those climbing to Beachy Head were. All the Arabs had gone by 1964. One survives into preservation.
Chris Hebbron
19/03/15 – 07:11
Thanks Chris H for the 5LW/6LW info – I’m away from my resources until the end of the month! The Portsmouth Arabs may have been 5LWs as delivered as Pompey is a flat area (Southwick Hill Road being a minor exception, although all cars bound for Waterlooville and northwards would have had the slog up the main London Road). However by the late 50’s those used on the 38 to Droxford etc may well have been upgraded. Just listening to some of the Guy Arabs in the sounds section of this site is an aural delight, too.
Michael Hampton
19/03/15 – 07:12
Bus stop signs: The bus logo on the stop plate was not for visibility. When introduced it formed part of the TRO (Traffic regulation order) that made parking restrictions enforceable – which is why it has the same outline as the bus on bus lane signs. Whether legislation has changed since I don’t know.
Alan Murray-Rust
12/04/15 – 07:10
Thank you for your comments while waiting for my observations. I was born in Bognor Regis in 1947 when my parents moved down from Croydon. My mother had a dress making shop with a flat above opposite the General Post Office which is how I became a bus enthusiast looking out of the window at the Southdown pre war buses stopping opposite and the occasional appearance of a Green Goddess fire engine when the siren went off. My memories are currently being compiled taking me from an enthusiast to a bus operator in Brighton. Look out for it on Classic Bus web site SCT’6.
Clifford Jones
09/01/16 – 17:46
Hi, just seen this article and comments. I remember this bus being in the Bognor area when I was young and for a while it ran on the 31 Portsmouth to Brighton service, and at the time was common knowledge that it had been exhibited at the Festival of Britain on the South Bank, showing the future of British Transport. Assuming this is correct then it is a pity it came to a disappointing end.
Brian Allsopp
10/01/16 – 05:57
Alan, with regard to your post of March 2015 [which I seem to have missed] in respect of the bus stop poles and signs, they are in the Department For Transport’s (or whatever that outfit is called this week!) Traffic Signs Manual, which prescribes the assorted outlines typefaces and dimensions. The picture of the bus was supposed to be the right sign before I retired, and it was black on a white background. Yes, I know, an increasing number of operators use their own, which makes me wonder if the rules have changed in the not too distant past! Equally, the post ‘shall’ – the manual used to say – be black or silver. So much for the operator’s livery colour!
Pete Davies
10/01/16 – 10:53
I always imagined that bold ‘black bus on white background’ consistency was introduced to help those with sight impairment, entirely logical, but perhaps misguided by the way it’s fast disappearing. Stagecoach are introducing such multi-coloured ones with fancy writing/numbers, that I, who suffer from colour-blindness, has difficulty making out the dedicated route numbers on the various signs. I must look out for the manual you mention, Pete. Maybe I can throw a spanner in the works!
Chris Hebbron
11/01/16 – 09:26
Paul H (15/01/15 – 10:32) implies that, like Southdown’s KUF 700, Ribble’s early post-war double-deck coaches were, in due course, downgraded to buses. In fact, that only happened in respect of the first 30 (2518-47: BRN 261-90 – later renumbered 1201-30), which were actually PD1/3, only the last 20 being PD2/3. From the mid-1950s they were demoted to bus work, with the luggage pens replaced by seats, presumably raising capacity to 53. They were also repainted in bus livery, but I understand that these things (demoting/increasing capacity/repainting) did not necessarily all occur at the same time. After becoming buses, they were particularly associated with Ribble’s Furness operating area. The later PD2/3s (1231-50: DCK 202-21) were never downgraded to buses, they remained on medium distance express services until replaced by Atlanteans 1266-85 (RRN 415-34) in 1962.
David Call
11/01/16 – 13:37
Brian A above says No 700 was at the Festival of Britain in 1951. I’m not sure about that, as I thought it was one of the standard Leyland-bodied PD2/12s on show at that event. In C. Carter’s book “The Heyday of the Bus, the Postwar Years”, there is a picture of No.701 (KUF 701) on a plinth there. This was the first of 24 such vehicles, followed by another 30 (Later ones had bodies by other makers). If 700 visited as well, was it just on an excursion, or was it an additional exhibit?
Michael Hampton
15/12/18 – 06:38
I was a regular in Bognor Regis bus garage from 1964 to 1973 and I never saw KUF 700 do any other work than an occasional schools bus service.
Jersey Motor Transport 1959 Leyland Titan PD2/31 Reading H31/28R
780 JGY is a Leyland Titan PD2/31 with H59R body by Readings of Portsmouth. She was new in 1959, as J 8588, for the Jersey Motor Transport fleet and carries the usual advert for Mary Ann. Is my eyesight playing tricks again or does the bodywork look a bit “Park Royal”? She’s at Amberley on 21 September 1997.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
12/06/15 – 06:11
Did Readings use Park Royal frames hence the similarity?
Philip Halstead
12/06/15 – 07:54
I’m not aware that they ever did, Philip. They always seemed to plough their own furrow and were quite happy to do one-off orders to an individual design. Granted, this body shape is a bit Park Royal’ish, though. Was this one bus the total order for JMT, of its type? It certainly looks very smart, stylish and airy inside.
Chris Hebbron
16/06/15 – 06:51
The Ian Allan ABC British Bus Fleets ‘West of England’ (May 1964) included details of the JMT fleet and has a photograph of number 27 is included. The fleet list shows a batch of 5 Reading bodied Leyland Titan PD2/31s. They were numbered 16 (J 1583); 22 (J 8587); 27 (J 8588); 47 (J 1588) and 52 (J 1528). The dates new are given as 1958 (16, 47 and 52) and 1959 (22 and 27). Whether they all looked similar I don’t know.
David Slater
18/06/15 – 06:11
Jersey Motor Transport (JMT) J 8587 (22) and J 8588 (27) were the second batch of Reading bodied PD2/31 Titans delivered to JMT, arriving in June 1959. These were of a 4 bay design, where as the first batch had 5 bays {please see picture of J 1588 (47)}. No.27 was the last double decker bought new by JMT, ex London Transport RTLs being bought after that.
Also shown is a picture of sister vehicle J 8587 in service in Jersey at The Weighbridge Bus Station for many years the main departure point for JMT services. The rear of J 1528 (52), one of the first batch is seen on the extreme right.
Barrow In Furness Corporation 1958 Leyland Titan PD2/40 Park Royal H33/28R
CEO 956 is a Leyland PD2/40 with Park Royal H61R bodywork from 1958. She was built for Barrow In Furness Corporation (fleet number 169) and we see her parked on Middle Walk, Blackpool, on 29 September 1985. This is a date some of the readership will recognise, as being Blackpool’s Tramway Centenary day and she was taking part in a rally as part of the celebrations.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
03/09/15 – 07:17
What a handsome bus – helped by an attractive livery.
David Wragg
04/09/15 – 07:17
Thank you, David. I’ve always thought the livery bore some affinity with the Birmingham one, likewise that of St Helens (only in red).
Pete Davies
11/09/15 – 07:07
This vehicle along with No.170 (CEO 957), passed to the Furness Transport Group in the late 1970s, subsequently passing on to the Mersey and Calder Group. On Saturday 25th October 1986 it was hired back for one day by Barrow Corporation Transport and operated the final service journey (11pm Town Hall – Abbey Road – Harrel Lane – Washington – Town Hall), thus marking the end of 66 years of municipal transport in the Borough.
Larry B
12/09/15 – 14:22
Honourably bringing up the rear, behind this fabulous Barrow vehicle, is surely one of the splendid Lytham St Annes Leylands too. Those were the days indeed.
Chris Youhill
13/09/15 – 05:49
There’s a name I’m glad to see here again – not Leyland or even Park Royal… or Barrow – but Youhill!
Joe
13/09/15 – 11:15
Thank you so much Joe , that is very kind indeed. I have been through the mill to some tune this last couple of months but am now making the best of it – what else can one do ?? I am definitely not one of those to burden everyone else with my difficulties as this does neither party any good I always feel, so no morbid details here. Thank you once again though for your greatly appreciated concern – I have had many good wishes from various quarters and forums (fora I suppose for Latin aficionado’s) and these of course mean a lot.
Chris Youhill
13/09/15 – 11:15
Enthusiastically seconded, Joe!
Chris Hebbron
15/09/15 – 06:41
Correct, CY, and welcome back. The vehicle concerned is GTB 903. I feel the original is too close-up for submission for Peter to consider.
Lancaster City Transport 1957 Leyland Titan PD2/30 Massey H33/28R
998 AKT is a Leyland Titan PD2/30, was new to Maidstone Corporation in 1957, with fleet number 8. She has a Massey H61R body. In 1975, she and three sisters returned to their birthplace in the north west to join Lancaster City Council’s Transport Department, after the merger with Morecambe & Heysham in 1974. The new Council had a flurry of buying used vehicles in 1974/5, and Maidstone 8 followed the old Lancaster pattern of matching the fleet number with the registration, becoming 998. In this view, taken on 13 September 1975, she is westbound near the Grand Hotel, on Morecambe Promenade.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
20/11/15 – 06:54
There seemed to be something about Massey bodies and the seaside. Operators on or near the coast that had them that come to mind are Morecambe & Heysham, Lytham St Annes, Birkenhead, Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft and Barrow-in-Furness. Chester, Colchester, Ipswich and Exeter aren’t that far off the sea either being on tidal estuaries.
Philip Halstead
20/11/15 – 06:54
Lancaster City Council had been told by the Traffic Commissioner that the 1940s and early 1950s AEC Regents inherited from Morecambe were unacceptably old and that was the main reason for the secondhand buys. Maidstone around the same time had a new broom General Manager who was convinced that the town didn’t need heavyweight double deck buses and the same job could be done by a fleet of lightweight single deck Bedfords.
Stephen Allcroft
20/11/15 – 14:20
Thank you for your thoughts, Philip and Stephen. If I remember rightly, what Stephen says would account for the views I have seen of Maidstone Atlanteans with operators in the Glasgow area. Incidentally, the building site in the background, in the process of becoming a block of apartments, was rather controversial, being at the Promenade end of Princes Crescent. There were rumblings at the time of ‘deals’ between the developer and Morecambe & Heysham’s Town Clerk, who was about to become redundant through the Reorganisation. He had long been in dispute with his employers over his address. He was supposed to live within the Borough, but lived just outside it, in Hest Bank. His mother lived within the borough, and he had his post delivered there. The Captcha code seems vaguely akin to a Rochdale registration: RDK7 . . .
Pete Davies
20/11/15 – 14:21
This vehicle had been on hire to Alder Valley at Reading the previous year.
Paul Robson
20/11/15 – 14:22
What a superb livery! This livery would certainly lift modern double deckers, as opposed to the random ramblings that pass as liveries today.
Allan White
21/11/15 – 06:06
Let’s not forget Southend-on-Sea, too, Philip, with the livery colours of both fleets not being too dissimilar!
Chris Hebbron
21/11/15 – 06:06
Further to Allan White’s comment. At the time the fiesta blue and cream Maidstone livery was new, having been introduced with the trolleybus Replacement Atlanteans. After a green and cream livery, the GM’s choice, was rejected the Lancaster city fleet was painted Trafalgar Blue and white.
Stephen Allcroft
21/11/15 – 06:07
Yes, Allan, it certainly beats Maidstone’s previous brown.
Pete Davies
21/11/15 – 06:08
In the mid-1970s I knew both the Lancaster Chief Engineer and the depot foreman at Morecambe, and did not hear any suggestion that they were under orders to get rid of the Regent IIIs. I was told that the local examiner was inclined to ‘pull a face’, but that was as far as things ever went. If the relevant bus met the required standards, there wasn’t much anyone could do. Of course, the Regent IIIs weren’t getting any younger, and no doubt costing more to maintain as time went by. I was one of four enthusiasts who purchased No.72 (MTC540) for preservation in 1975, and (for our own interest) we were given a copy of a list of jobs which would have needed to be done for a recertification, which Lancaster had apparently considered. It was an uncomfortably long list, for a vehicle with a very limited life expectancy.
David Call
21/11/15 – 06:09
The traditional livery at Maidstone was an attractive brown and cream worn by buses and trolleybuses alike. Trolleybus replacement began in 1965, and the new buses introduced the pale blue and cream livery shown in the photo above. In 1974 things changed dramatically at Maidstone when Alan Price became Manager of the transport dept. In that year local government reorganisation saw Maidstone Corporation become the extended Maidstone Borough Council with control over the old rural district councils to the south and east of the former Corporation boundaries. Maidstone then sought to run bus services in its new extended area which had hitherto been the province of Maidstone and District, and under the NBC Market Analysis Project, integration did occur under the name “Maidstone Area Bus Services”. Until 1974 Maidstone had operated a high quality all double deck fleet. Under its new manager this was quickly replaced with OPO Bedford Y type lightweight single decks and all double deckers had gone from service by 1979. In that year, to commemorate the 75 years of Maidstone municipal transport, a bus was repainted in the old brown/cream livery, and, for a while, this became the new standard again. In the meantime, surplus double deckers that had not been sold were hired out to other operators in that period when British Leyland was falling catastrophically short in the supply of new vehicles and spare parts. As the Maidstone fleet expanded to meet its enlarged aspirations, many second hand vehicles were pressed into service still in the liveries of their previous owners. Then, in October 1986 came deregulation, which, amongst its numerous stupidities, outlawed area operating agreements as being “uncompetitive”. Thereupon, Maidstone and M&D became competitors, with the Maidstone business relaunched as Boro’line. A new Best Impressions livery of blue and yellow with red and white trim (to my eye as every bit as grotesque as it sounds) came in at the same time, and double decks, new and second hand, reappeared in the fleet. In entering the new competitive environment, M&D adopted practices that later became the subject of the highly critical Competition Commission enquiry of 1993. To further its expansion, Boro’line succeeded in winning some London Regional Transport contracts. Unfortunately, Boro’line was not entirely adept at costing its operating activities, and began accruing very large debts. The whole business was offered for sale by Maidstone Borough, and Kentish bus took the London contracts early in 1992. A receiver was appointed to sell off the remaining operations but very few takers could be found. Discussions with more than 30 prospective buyers fell through. In the meantime, several buses were repossessed, though services struggled on. The end came in June 1992 with the sale of the of the residual business to Maidstone & District.
Roger Cox
21/11/15 – 06:09
The stories of the happy marriage of Maidstone & Morecambe fall into the category of “you couldn’t make it up”. They replaced 25 year old (and more) buses with 17 year old buses…? Maidstone were embracing the mini fashion which has swung to the opposite end now, with oversized buses on urban streets. I think a good compromise would be a 26ft double decker, 7ft 6in wide and carrying 56 passengers. A rear loading platform would speed travel, as would employing apprentices or “conductors” who could train as drivers once they had learnt the routes. It would never catch on…
Joe
22/11/15 – 11:34
Joe, you comment on the ‘happy marriage of Maidstone & Morecambe’. I think you mean the very unhappy, shotgun, marriage of Lancaster and Morecambe. So far as the thoughts about open rear platforms, apprentices helping to load the bus and learn the routes go, well, RADICAL isn’t in it! I did some afternoon conducting on some of Southampton’s preserved buses (the operation had by then become Southampton Citybus) during afternoons off from my job with the Council, and was amazed at how many folk said much the same thing: it was nice to have a bus with a conductor, and the engine and entrance where they ought to be. I mentioned this to the MD and he declared the thought to be economic suicide. You’re right, Joe – it won’t catch on!
Pete Davies
22/11/15 – 11:35
There is an excellent article in Classic Bus 135 (Feb-Mar 2015) on the Lancaster undertaking written by Thomas Knowles who was GM of the combined Lancaster – Morecambe & Heysham operation from its outset. Mr Knowles gives a fairly candid view on some of the problems he encountered in running the newly combined outfit. There are also some excellent photos illustrating the article.
Philip Halstead
23/11/15 – 06:27
No, Phil- the happy marriage of convenience of Maidstone & Morecambe- one with too many buses and one with too few! Not conductors, mind… interns or…runners… pupils… there were/are plenty of jobs where you do or did earn next to nothing for the privilege of learning the job. I don’t think the unions ever saw it this way..
Joe
24/11/15 – 13:48
Trafalgar blue is used by Lancaster City Council to this day to paint shelters and stops perhaps they are trying to tell Stagecoach something!
New to Southport Corporation in 1965, with fleet number 54. She is a Leyland Titan PD2/40 with Weymann O64F body, converted from H64F. When Southport was absorbed into Merseyside, there was uproar among the natives, who wanted to remain in Lancashire. The place does, after all, have a Preston postcode rather than a Liverpool one! Do the residents still hold – as many in Bournemouth and Christchurch do in respect of Hampshire and Dorset – that they live in Lancashire, but Merseyside is allowed to look after certain aspects of life? We see her on Southampton’s Itchen Bridge on 6 May 1979, while taking part in the local operator’s Centenary celebrations.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/12/15 – 07:11
Regarding the open top Leyland currently on site, please find attached a photograph of the bus? OR an identical one. It is seen on Trans Pennine 2015 and is in the William Hunter collection.
Tracked your picture down to 154 reg, my picture is of 151 ! How many did they get?
Roy Dodsworth
22/12/15 – 08:57
Hello, Roy! Thank you for your thoughts. I’m afraid I can’t help you, as the BBF ‘Lancashire Municipal’ book I found a few years ago doesn’t include this batch. I am, however, very confident that at least one of the other readers will be able to advise us both!
There’s almost a Beverly Bar tumble-home to CMW 151C’s upper deck glazing, distinctive I suppose.
Stephen Allcroft
24/12/15 – 06:24
Yes, Stephen, there is. I hadn’t noticed on the view of 154. Can anyone tell us if they were converted at the same time? The fleet list noted above suggests they were still H rather than O at the time of transfer to Merseyside.
Pete Davies
24/12/15 – 06:25
Oh, Southport’s resistance to Merseyside has taken many forms over the years. In bus terms red wheels were one of the first signs, then the use of municipal livery on open toppers and more recently on park and ride buses. As for the town itself since the abolition of the county council I suspect it’s less of a problem although sharing Sefton Borough with parts rather close to Liverpool has been a problem. I believe they managed to get Merseyside off the postal address a while back but in these days of ceremonial and postal counties and fragmented political counties it’s all a mess. I prefer to go with geographic counties which spares poor old Middlesex and puts my old home town of Widnes firmly back in Lancashire. On the Wirral they managed to get their postcodes changed from L to CH with a positive effect on insurance premiums….
Rob McCaffery
25/12/15 – 08:05
Prior to 1974 Southport was a County Borough: County Boroughs were created in 1889, when administrative County Councils were established, for larger towns/cities for which it was felt that administrative control by the County would be inappropriate/impractical – they were abolished by Peter Walker’s Local Government Act (1972). It’s my understanding that Southport was offered the option of incorporation as a Borough within either Lancashire or the Metropolitan County of Merseyside: the former would have allowed it to retain it’s transport undertaking but would have meant responsibility for education passed to Lancashire County Council, whereas Metropolitan Boroughs retained control of education (but lost control of transport to the PTE) – clearly the Aldermen and Councillors of the County Borough of Southport knew where their priorities lay. Initially it was proposed that the 1974 County boundaries would apply solely for administrative purposes and that existing County boundaries would be retained for postal and ceremonial purposes, but . . .
Philip Rushworth
25/12/15 – 09:40
I know exactly what Philip R means! In Southampton, there were moves to have the whole of Southern Hampshire – including Portsmouth – declared a Metropolitan County, so the local districts could maintain control of Education which, otherwise, would go to ‘those idiots at the County Council’. Gosport was what was called an “Excepted District” for Education, and Fareham was only an Urban District. It was, however, pointed out that a Metropolitan County would control the buses through a PTE, so the idea was dropped in favour of keeping the buses under local control and losing the Education.
Pete Davies
31/12/15 – 07:23
Along with at least two dozen fellow enthusiasts, I spent the best part of a week in the Spring of 1988 on holiday with 0651 as our principal mode of travel, the group having hired it, with several holding PSV licenses so that we could drive it ourselves. It was a fine week, with plenty of time spent on the upper deck in the sunshine, and I shan’t ever forget the crackling roar the old PD2 made as it pounded surefootedly up the steep Matlock Bank on the way to Chesterfield and Sheffield on the last night of the holiday. What a fine tribute that superb machine is to the designers and workers who spent their careers at the Leyland factory.
Dave Careless
31/12/15 – 12:22
Dave C, I think someone had clearly attended to the governor on your vehicle. I remember joining a tour of West Yorkshire in 1977 which used similar but earlier PD2/44 and thinking that it couldn’t pull the skin off a rice pudding! I was used to the performance of Halifax’s almost-identical vehicles and the comparison was stark. I always assumed that Southport’s were governed down severely as they only ran on very flat routes.
David Beilby
31/03/16 – 06:35
Note this vehicle up for sale as of April 2016
Roger Burdett
25/11/16 – 07:27
I was an apprentice fitter at Southport Corporation, Canning rd. Depot in the late 60’s. The batch of buses you were asking about were numbered from 43 – 57 and they all had vacuum brakes as opposed to air brakes and manual gearboxes not semi automatics and the 01 prefix numbers were only applied after the MPTE takeover. The later batch nos. were converted to OMO operation by moving the drivers N/S cab window outwards over the bonnet and the driver had to literally turn round to the left and face backwards to collect the fares, something of a feat even in those days! The Drivers who opted to become OMO drivers were paid the princely sum of 3d an hour more (note not decimal pence btw) to become OMO drivers! Mr Alan Westwell (now Dr. Alan Westwell) designed the cab window arrangement conversion when he was ‘The Rolling Stock Engineer’ at Canning Rd., note the title of RSE as opposed to Chief Engineer, as the title was from the old tramway days of long ago! The next batch of vehicles were Leyland Panthers which were numbered from 58-70
Norman Johnstone
25/11/16 – 10:38
When London Country came into being in 1970, it, too, set up the post of RSE (Rolling Stock Engineer). He was then supplied with an Assistant, so entitled, until the unfortunate acronym thus created subsequently led to the renaming of the post as ‘Deputy’.
Roger Cox
25/11/16 – 13:14
At Derby Borough/City Transport we had a Chief Engineer (the late Gerald Truran), and, a Rolling Stock Superintendent, and an Assistant Rolling Stock Superintendent. The latter two posts being a throw back to Trolleybus days.
Stephen Howarth
25/11/16 – 14:08
I can assure you that the title of Rolling Stock Engineer is still alive and well in the tramway field. I am one!
David Beilby
25/11/16 – 14:17
I am a volunteer at The North West Museum of Transport in St. Helens. We are at present in the process of restoring Southport Corporation 62 a 1946 Daimler Utility CWA6 which apparently is one of only a few surviving CWA6’s with genuine wartime utility bodies by Duple. We have just fitted a replacement AEC 7.7 engine which by all accounts are as scare to say the least. This particular vehicle finished it’s life at Aintree Racecourse as a Stewards Bus on the racecourse when the museum acquired it many years ago. If anyone has any more information regarding this bus please can they get in touch as we do have some very limited information on it as it is a genuine wartime utility bus bodied by Duple.
Norman Johnstone
27/11/16 – 07:40
I am glad Ronnie Cox didn’t let him convert Glasgow’s 229 forward entrance Double decks for OMO and I am sure the surviving drivers from early GG PTE days are too!
Stephen Allcroft
27/02/18 – 05:58
In the foregoing comments there is a reference to a PD2/44. I am not acquainted with such, thinking that PD2 variants ceased at No 41. Was 44 a special to Southport?
Orla Nutting
28/02/18 – 07:41
Blame the typist! I was wondering who would claim it was a PD2/44 then realised who wrote the post….
David Beilby
28/02/18 – 07:42
Re. Southport 62, the Utility Daimler. I was a volunteer at Steamport in Southport when 62 arrived. It was exchanged for Birkenhead 15, a PD2. It had been used as a sort of grandstand for the motor racing circuit at Aintree and was possibly a commentary position though I can’t be certain of that. When there was a clear out of some vehicles at Steamport there was a danger that it would be scrapped. Fortunately, I was able to arrange for it to be towed to the former Large Objects Store in Liverpool where it remained for some years. Upon the closure of those premises I assisted in removing the bus to a position outside the building to await removal to St Helens. During this operation 3 out of the 4 of us who were involved were attacked by cat fleas, presumably rather upset that the wild cats that had been living on the bus had fled the scene! Good luck with the work on 62. I was impressed all those years ago that the bodywork was so solid despite it being a Utility. If it still has a lot of blue seat frames stored upstairs, they are from Birkenhead 15, not being required for its role taking over from 62.
Jonathan Cadwallader
01/03/18 – 05:59
Typo notwithstanding, it isn’t true that PD2 variants ceased at 41. In the final “rationalised” range, the former PD2A/24, PD2A/27, PD2A/30, PD2/34, PD2/37 and PD2/40 were replaced respectively by PD2A/44, PD2/47, PD2/50, PD2A/54, PD2/57 and PD2/60. However, only the PD2/47 was actually built, for St Helens, Lowestoft and Darwen.
Peter Williamson
02/03/18 – 08:13
Thanks for that. I had a nagging feeling that I’d read about the PD2/47 somewhere.
Orla Nutting
10/06/18 – 08:38
Just an update on the Southport Daimler 62. The replacement engine has now been fitted and runs extremely well and lo & behold only a couple of months ago we actually moved 62 in the museum to another space next to where it was parked, albeit basically 10ft to the right in the shunt, but it actually was ‘driven’ to the next space after well over 28 years of having no engine in it and although the brakes were shall we say not exactly functional the handbrake worked perfectly (except for the ratchet which was sticking) and so did all the pre-select gears including reverse!
Norman Johnstone
22/06/20 – 06:52
43-46 UWM43-46 Leyland PD2/40 Weymann 1961 47-50 WFY47-50 Leyland PD2/40 Weymann 1962 51-54 CWM151-154C Leyland PD2/40 Weymann 1965 55-58 GFY55-58E Leyland PD2/40 MCCW 1967 All looked identical but some detail differences: red or black radiator grilles front top deck opening vent windows or not side opening windows – some sliders, some rill type lower skirt panel near side immediately after door – some single panel with a slight curve to transition from the straight down door post to curved lower pane – some curved panel with no transition from straight down door post.
There’s a bit of a bus jam in Sheffield High Street on 9th October 1965 as 613, one of the large batch of A fleet all Leyland PD2s leaves the stand for a trip to Millhouses. It takes three Inspectors to peruse the Alexander Regent V in the background, hope they move out of the way before the member of the small batch of 1952 all Leyland PD2/10 manages to squeeze past the back of the queue and continue its journey. This little scenario (minus Inspectors) was re enacted last Wednesday in exactly the same place as I passed by – quite a coincidence! Sheffield’s all Leyland PD2s all put in a good innings, at 16 years old 613 looks in fine fettle.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
04/02/16 – 16:58
Strange how Sheffield used two different liveries for differing bodywork designs. The three blue bands was probably the standard but most of the Roe bodies and these Leylands had blue around the windows. The big city fleets tended to be very standardised and bordering on the boring with large batches of buses that looked more of less the same. Sheffield was the exception as they purchased smaller batches of widely varying vehicle types right up to being absorbed into the PTE. A very interesting and always well turned out fleet. We had civic pride in those days.
Philip Halstead
05/02/16 – 14:54
On the subject of civic/local pride First has repainted buses in Leeds and Bradford into former operators liveries. For some reason these are always immaculately turned out by their respective garages unlike some of the standard liveried stuff Makes you think eh.
First certainly did Sheffield proud with retro-painted Geminis to celebrate the motor bus centenary in 2013. The superb paintwork depicted both old and new style of livery – a splendid selection of photos can be found at – www.flickr.com/photos/
John Darwent
06/02/16 – 18:02
A great photo Ian, brought back lots of memories! Having spent what might be described as my formative years in Sheffield I can only endorse the comments made about the variety of the fleet, though our local route 61/63 was almost always provided with the Roe bodied Leyland PD3s which replaced the trams. From memory, the buses were usually well maintained and clean inside (apart from the nicotine stained ceiling of the upper deck before smoking was banned)! Perhaps the presence of a conductor made a difference? Now living in Dorset and using First in Weymouth, I have to say that the buses are usually clean inside and out as well.
Stan Zapiec
07/02/16 – 07:17
The images of the First fleet in Sheffield using the older liveries just goes to show how awful the current so-called liveries are. The old ones had style and dignity, and looked good as well.
David Wragg
08/02/16 – 06:33
Nice photo! I visited relatives in Sheffield in the 1960s so delighted to see this. Was the very small plate on the radiators a note that the bus was `antifreezed`? Can’t remember!
Steve Milner
08/02/16 – 16:24
The ‘three blue bands’ vs the ‘blue window surrounds’ wasn’t the only variation to be found in the Sheffield livery either. On first repaint, buses had their roofs painted smudge grey instead of the cream they were delivered with, as seen in this photo of the same all-Leyland PD2, 613, laying over in Castlegate, alongside the River Don. I’ve heard it said that the shade of grey was actually derived from mixing the residue of the blue and cream paint tins. In Ian’s photo of the bus, taken in its later years, the bus is seen to have had its original cream roof restored, part of the modifications made to the livery in the ‘Humpidge’ era of management. When C.T. Humpidge, formerly at Bradford, took over as General Manager from R.C. Moore in 1961, he made moves to do away with the practice of painting the roofs grey, and Roe bodies eventually lost their blue window surrounds, although intriguingly none of the Leyland ‘Farington’ style bodied PD2s so treated ever did, and retained their ‘blue window surrounds’ livery to the end. Humpidge also had matt black applied between the destination apertures to form a so called ‘consolidated display’, a move that still generates fierce debate amongst some older Sheffield enthusiasts even fifty plus years later!! And yes Steve, that small plate affixed to the radiator read “STD – Do Not Drain”
Dave Careless
10/02/16 – 06:17
If the ‘consolidated’ destination was controversial, why did they not go all the way and just have a single line? Almost all photos that I have seen have one of the two screens showing blank and I have yet to find a reason for two of them being fitted!
David Todd
10/02/16 – 16:32
David – from memory there were a few destinations that required the use of both screens, Dore via Brocco Bank and Beighton Handsworth are two that come to mind. Also I think the lower blind had (generally) City services whilst the longer distance services (generally) appeared on the upper blind. Note that on the photo above from Dave, Shirecliffe is on the top blind (exception proves the rule) whilst on the bus behind, 97 Southey Green used to have via Longley Lane on the lower screen hence its appearance on the top screen.
Ian Wild
11/02/16 – 06:23
Fulwood via Rustlings Road was another, Ian. I remember being fascinated as a kid, on shopping trips into the city, seeing these PD2s storming along Fargate showing Roscoe Bank or Brocco Bank, they seemed like exotic destinations to me at the time, I don’t know why! Ironically, even though they had the two apertures on the side over the platform, on route 1 they sometimes had to resort to carrying a red board with white lettering in the last nearside lower saloon window, reading ‘via Elm Lane’
Dave Careless
11/02/16 – 06:24
To emphasise Ian’s point, both blinds were used on a number of routes, 61/63 Beauchief and Woodseats Circular with Circular in the lower display spring to mind together with 74 Greystones Norton. So I think both blinds were in pretty frequent use.
Stan Zapiec
13/02/16 – 05:27
Or neither in use – instructions for the Stocksbridge locals were to “show blank” . . . despite “Garden Village” being available. If you follow this link //forum.sy-transport.co.uk/thread/13424/destination-blinds-lists (South Yorkshire Transport Forum, History, Destination Blinds) you’ll find listings from various destination blinds, including (if you work through the pages) various Sheffield Transport upper and lower and Y-type blind sets.
Philip Rushworth
12/06/19 – 06:37
Sorry, what’s this “B” fleet thing? Was there an “A” fleet as well, why?
Mark Chawner
12/06/19 – 10:53
…and a C Fleet as well! Others can explain better but it was all to do with the involvement of the railway companies.
Joe
12/06/19 – 12:41
Sheffield was a Joint Omnibus Committee where A fleet was wholly owned by Sheffield Corporation and operated within the city boundaries, C fleet was owned by the railways (LMS & LNER) and broadly speaking operated long distance routes often terminating at or near railway stations far afield. B fleet was jointly owned by corporation and railways and usually operated beyond the city boundaries but not so distant as C fleet. As might be expected there were many variations to this and buses from the B fleet especially could be seen on many A & C routes, buses from A fleet would often be seen on C fleet routes and a periodic mileage / income balancing would take place. Popular routes with hikers and ramblers would use vehicles from all fleets at peak weekends and Bank Holidays. See C.C Hall’s “Sheffield Transport” for a more detailed explanation. My very favourite fleet!!
Birmingham City Transport 1948 Leyland Titan PD2/1 Brush H30/24R
Here is a Leyland Titan PD2/1 with Brush H54R body, to Birmingham’s then standard design. She dates from 1948 and we see her in the Weymouth rally on 1 July 1979. She began her service at Yardley Wood depot and, Malcolm Keeley reports in his book in the Glory Days series, most of the batch so allocated from new remained there throughout their working lives. The others were at Perry Bar. The saga of the Brush bodies is not so happy, however. There had been some earlier disagreements between the builder and the operator, the former managing to convince itself that the product was entirely the opposite of what the operator wanted. This batch appears to have been the last of the Brush bodies for Birmingham.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/02/16 – 13:28
Interestingly, at the same time, Brush was building bodies for Manchester on Daimler chassis to Manchester’s post war standard design and there were a number of letters exchanged due to Brush’s “interpretations” which were not acceptable.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/02/16 – 16:14
Well, Phil, this makes me wonder if – by upsetting two of the country’s biggest operators – this saga is the reason Brush got out of building bus bodies not long afterwards.
Pete Davies
22/02/16 – 16:15
In 1949, coachbuilding at Brush employed around 1500 people and contributed £3 million towards the company’s £15 million productive total in that year. Then came the Korean War (1950-53), which brought a flood of armament related orders to Brush, who closed the coachbuilding activity in 1951 to concentrate resources on the more lucrative parts of the business.
Roger Cox
23/02/16 – 05:37
Yes, Roger, that diversion of resources for “War Work” would explain a lot!
Pete Davies
23/02/16 – 05:38
A most elegant vehicle indeed, unashamedly with very traditional appearance and further greatly enhanced by the very pleasing Birmingham livery.
Chris Youhill
23/02/16 – 10:48
And, of course, Chris Y, unblemished by adverts, a Brummie trademark, until the latter days. I confess to getting confused about the chrome/painted and aluminium rads on PD’s. I always thought the former to be PD1’s; the latter PD2’s. It doesn’t seem to work that way, unless the rad surrounds got changed about over the years!
Chris Hebbron
23/02/16 – 13:11
How right you are Chris H about the lack of disfiguring adverts – sadly of course we have to acknowledge that they are a valuable source of revenue but even accepting that some are totally “cheap” and abominable. Regarding PD1/PD2 radiator shells, just off the top of my head I’ve always thought that painted or chrome ones were frequently interchanged on PD1s – I just can’t think of any PD2 fitted with either of those.
Chris Youhill
23/02/16 – 16:46
Oh heck – I was so anxious to answer Chris H’s query that I overlooked the PD2 in the picture having a chrome shell. I wonder if batches of PD2s were therefore so equipped or has this one being “treated” during preservation – any informed answer would be appreciated please.
Chris Youhill
24/02/16 – 05:48
I think the chrome radiator shell was always an option but I can’t think of anybody except Manchester who took it. Even there they then went and painted them red!
David Beilby
24/02/16 – 05:49
All Manchester’s PD2s had chrome radiators but aluminium was the Leyland standard offering.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/02/16 – 05:52
I understand the choice of chrome pressed metal or cast aluminium radiator shells was down to the purchaser’s specification or at least it was for large scale orders. Most of Manchester’s PD2’s for example had the pressed metal shell which was chrome plated as delivered but always painted red at the first re-paint. This I understand was down to the frugal views of GM Albert Neil as the pressed metal version was cheaper.
Philip Halstead
24/02/16 – 05:53
Exeter took delivery of 17 PD2/1 in November and December 1947. They had consecutive registrations but the Leyland bodies of the first ten were in the 472 xxx series whilst the last 7 were in the 480 xxx series. I think the first lot had painted radiator shells and the later ones chrome. Certainly HFJ 144 (No. 17), which is preserved, has and has always had a chrome one. Some of these magnificent buses lasted 23 years in service with Exeter – and looked as smart at the end as when they were new!
David Chapman
24/02/16 – 08:16
Thanks for these informative replies folks, and I’m getting redder by the minute having just recalled that the two Kippax and District PD2s (GWX 823/4) had chrome shells – and I’ve even driven one of them when owned by Wallace Arnold !!
Philip H, Manchester’s PD2’s chrome radiators certainly were not all painted at first vehicle repaint. There was a massive variation across the fleet. There are plenty of photos showing older PD2s, from the early 1950s, in the all red scheme in the mid 1960s, with unpainted radiators and a good number of later vehicles in SELNEC colours still with the brightwork intact. Radiators were painted if pitted but serviceable. The bulk of those painted was, I was once told, due to time pressure on the spray booth when repaints into the all red scheme were under way. Certainly many vehicles were repainted earlier than would have been the case had the scheme not been changed and one fewer masking job would have saved a little time. Another view was that those so painted were handled by a particular shift which never masked the radiator shell. Almost all Parrs Wood’s and most of Queens Rd’s PD2s survived until SELNEC with the chrome untouched. Hyde Rd’s vehicles seemed to be mainly painted. A well known story is that a Burlingham bodied PD2 returned to Parrs Wood after being treated to the red scheme including a painted radiator. The batch were Parrs Wood’s pride and joy and the bus was sent back with tart instruction to remove the paint and never paint a Parrs Wood radiator again unless instructed. This certainly seemed to hold good throughout the 1960s.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/02/16 – 16:52
I particularly enjoy little tales like that one, Phil, it puts a human touch to it all, and makes our hobby that much more fascinating. It’s not just about the buses, it’s about the people who operated them and cared for them as well. Thanks for sharing it.
Dave Careless
25/02/16 – 05:44
I found a photo on Facebook of Tynemouth and District no. 31, an all Leyland PD2/1, new to Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Company, complete with chromed radiator shell. I’m unsure of the photo’s copyright so I’m reluctant to reproduce it here.
Richard Slater
25/02/16 – 16:25
PD1’s and PD2’s were all fitted with pressed steel radiator shells until around 1949. Due to material shortages just after the war only a few were able to be chrome plated at first, the majority being painted. Then Leyland introduced the cast aluminium shell which became standard, with the pressed steel version available as an option. Halifax Corporation had nine PD2/1’s in 1947/48. All had chromed pressed steel shells apart from one which was painted orange. Throughout most of my childhood this was 101 (ACP 385) and it stood out from the others, but an official Leyland Motors photo shows a different one with the painted shell, and latterly in the mid-1960’s it had migrated on to a different bus again, so some swapping must have taken place at overhaul. Todmorden’s earlier PD2/1’s had painted steel shells, then came some chromed ones, then the later ones and the PD2/12’s had aluminium ones. Some later PD1’s – notably those supplied up to about 1952 to Central SMT – had the later aluminium version. I actually preferred the painted radiator shells on many PD1’s and PD2’s. I often thought that the chromed version tended to look a bit too gaudy, especially on some of those in an otherwise sombre municipal livery, and they also emphasised the slightest dints and imperfections which they tended to pick up quite easily. What I hated was when some operators – notably Leigh Corporation – chose to paint the later aluminium radiator shells, which looked absolutely terrible. By contrast, the chromed AEC radiator always looked superb to my mind, and always looked dreadful if painted over – Leigh Corporation and Liverpool spring to mind as offenders. I’ve wondered though, when Manchester CT painted their previously chromed shells, how did they get the paint to adhere and not just come off at the slightest scratch. Surely stripping the chrome plating would have been too much of a bother?
John Stringer
25/02/16 – 17:03
Some wonderfully interesting comments here, folks. Thank you!
Pete Davies
26/02/16 – 16:53
Thx, folks, especially John S, for helping to answer my question on “which PD rads when”! Another mystery solved!
Chris Hebbron
27/02/16 – 05:54
Richard, the photo of T&D 31 that you refer to is already on this site. Its in part two of my article about Northern General Transport Percy Main Depot. If memory serves, I bought my copy from a dealer at the Seaburn Historic Vehicle show.
Ronnie Hoye
28/02/16 – 06:05
Thanks Ronnie. I found it on another site, dedicated to matters Northumbrian. It was unattributed.
Richard Slater
02/03/16 – 06:24
Just catching up on the above after a few days out (due to computer death and replacement), and I can’t see that Phil’s statement about all Manchester PD2s having chromed radiator shells has been challenged. In fact the first 100 (3200-99) had cast aluminium shells, but since they were at Queens Road, I don’t suppose Phil saw much of them! See www.sct61.org.uk/
Peter Williamson
02/03/16 – 10:21
Peter,trying not to rely on memory I have been totally misled by a number of photos of both the Metro Cammell and Leyland bodied examples with shiny radiators when new. As for not seeing much of them, the 53 provided some sightings and visits to the city centre others, and North Manchester wasn’t a foreign ground to me, the radiator shells just didn’t register!
Phil Blinkhorn
16/03/16 – 05:05
According to Eyre & Heaps Manchester specified the pressed radiator shell because it was cheaper to repair when the dozier brethren ran into the back of something. Personally I would have thought the tin shell would be less resistant to casual knocks than the heavy casting, but the decision was presumably based upon feedback from accident repair statistics. It’s worth noting that Salford specified shorter rads on their CVGs for similar reasons, while Birkenhead and Rochdale just bolted a big lump of angle iron across the grille to protect it!
David Jones
16/03/16 – 08:17
Perhaps, David, if the ‘dozier brethren’ had been required to pay for the repairs out of their wages, they might have been more alert to their surroundings . .
Ribble Motor Services 1951 Leyland Titan PD2/3 East Lancs FCL27/22RD
This vehicle is easily recognisable as one of Ribble’s famous ‘White Ladies’. She has a Leyland Titan PD2/3 chassis, with East Lancs FCL49RD body. She dates from 1951 and, at the time of this photograph, she was with Quantock. I understand she has now passed to Sir Brian Souter. We see her outside the Guildhall, but Prestonians will know that this is not Preston Guildhall. The date of 1st January 2005 gives a clue – she’s in Winchester for a King Alfred running day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
26/02/16 – 05:32
Back in the spring of 1972 I had read in “Buses” magazine that Premier Travel were about to withdraw the last of their ex Ribble White Ladies, so I decided take a day trip to Cambridge to sample one while I had the chance. I rode from Cambridge to Royston and the youthful conductor (who I now suspect was Paul Carter, later to write the history of Premier) told me that I could catch a bus from Royston to the depot at Chrishall and then another back to Cambridge. I did as suggested and at the depot I found the chief engineer in the process of handing over this very bus to a group of enthusiasts for preservation. It was to be 43 years before I saw it again at the Scottish Bus Museum at Lathlalmond in 2015.
Nigel Turner
26/02/16 – 08:43
Thanks for that, Nigel. I still can’t reconcile the lowbridge seating with coach designation, but there we are!
Pete Davies
27/02/16 – 08:36
These vehicles were often used on service X4 from Manchester to Burnley via Todmorden, which passed under a low bridge at Portsmouth (a suburb of Todmorden.)
Don McKeown
27/02/16 – 09:22
I’m pretty sure that the bridge which barred full-height double-deckers from services X4/X14 was on the A646 between Walk Mill and Towneley. There isn’t a bridge at Portsmouth, but there is one just down the road at Cornholme. This is passable for full-height double-deckers (Yorkshire Rider used highbridge Atlanteans on Halifax depot’s share of service 592, Halifax-Burnley), but, being an arched bridge, it’s still ‘risky’.
David Call
27/02/16 – 12:55
I drove this vehicle a few times for Stephen Morris before he sold it to Brian Souter. It certainly was a lively performer but rolled a lot upstairs. Great vehicle and lovely to see it.
Roger Burdett
28/02/16 – 06:11
The bridge between Walk Mill and Towneley had a maximum permissible height of 14ft 6in and was passable for full-height double deckers up to and including that height. I remember passing under it on an enthusiasts’ outing with Halifax JOC 377 (BCP 671) and we stopped to photograph it doing so. The bridge was a straight steel one – not arched – so it was not a case of getting the position right. I think in the days before WYPTE diverted the Halifax-Todmorden Burnley route via Mereclough and Pike Hill it was not unknown for full-height double decks to pass under the bridge, though low-heights were the normal allocation. I know Burnley & Pendle had to be careful when their coaching unit received some Volvo CityBus double deckers, as they were 14 ft 9in and had to avoid the bridge.
John Stringer
28/02/16 – 15:22
Bridge heights always a problem as there seems to be some debate regarding this particular vehicle and the necessity for using it here is a suggestion. I seem to recall London Transport Country having problems with RCL Routemasters some where in I think Hertfordshire where the road had been lowered so that the warning sign indicated enough clearance for said vehicle but upon exiting from under the bridge hit the back end of the vehicle. This is probably more common with HGVs particularly artics where the front of the vehicle rises up before the back and levels out earlier.
Patrick Armstrong
18/11/16 – 11:40
I used to “spot” these beautiful buses as they made their way through Prestwich, north of Manchester. I have also tried hard to interest someone in a die cast model but to no avail as they were only used by Ribble and Premier. What a shame!
