Leyland – Page 3 – Old bus photos

Rawtenstall Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/12 – RTC 822 – 18

Photographs copyright G Walker.

Rawtenstall Corporation
1953
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Leyland H31/26R

This Titan had a Leyland Metal frame Highbridge body which I think was the ultimate in half cab double deckers especially on a PD 2/12. The first shot shows the vehicle when I had repainted it back to its original Rawtenstall Corporation livery whilst the second shows the bus ready to attend the 1976 Trans Pennine Rally in Rossendale livery basically the result of a good wash and polish a few months after I acquired it.

Here is a brief history of Rawtenstall No 18.
First registered new to Rawtenstall Corporation on 23rd October 1953 and transferred to the Rossendale undertaking in 1974 on government reorganisation when Rawtenstall merged with Haslingden Corporation.
Withdrawn in October 1974 after covering 585,860 miles in service and sold to Bingorama of Bellshill, Lanarkshire in 1974 and run on services around Motherwell and Hamilton etc taking people to a bingo hall in Bellshill.
Purchased by Gerald Walker, Wigton, Cumbria in April 1976 and restored to former Rawtenstall livery.
The bus was sold back to Rossendale Borough on the last day of Half Cab operation in November 1982.
After a few years it was sold to Brian Crowther of Black Prince, Morley, Leeds. No restoration was carried out and consequently the bus was sold to Carl Ireland, Hull who sold the bus on to a preservationist in Norfolk. Here again the bus did not have any work carried out on it in the six or so years it was at this location. In October 2009 Steve Morris the well known preservationist accompanied by a coach operator friend went to collect the bus with a recovery vehicle with the intention of towing it back to Taunton having recently purchased the bus. However when they got to Norfolk the bus had been started and was running, after checking all systems over apart from a minor easily rectified electrical fault it was decided to drive back. After an hour at the wheel Steve changed over to my AEC fanatic friend and once he got hold of this superb Leyland was reluctant to changeover later on driving almost all the way back. (He has now changed his opinions of Leylands a fact I have been trying to persuade him for some years). This journey is no mean feat for an elderly bus fully restored but No 18 had not turned a wheel for about 6 years and was 57 years old. Work is now progressing on a full restoration and I understand from Steve that a considerable amount of welding work has to be carried out on the rear chassis frame. but generally the body is in fairly good condition. I am looking forward to the day when the bus takes to the road again which will not be too far into the future I hope.

There are more shots of No 18, interior and exterior to be seen here.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Gerald Walker

What a brilliant set of pictures of such a classic vehicle.

Some of today’s body builders could learn a few lessons on how to style a bus and build it in such a way that body panels stay on the bus without pop rivets every other week.

Terry Malloy

Indeed Terry, and it is exactly the same inside and out as Samuel Ledgard’s 1952 trio – PNW 91/2/3, the last vehicles the grand old man bought before his death in April of that year.

Chris Youhill

Rode on this back in its Rawtenstall days and hope to see it somewhere in the north-west soon alongside the two superb Rawtenstall single-deckers which are already doing the rally circuit. Where would we be without hard-working preservationists? Nice one Gerald!

Neville Mercer

Thanks for the compliment Neville, No 18 was a lovely bus both to drive, ride on and as Terry says above todays designers could learn a lot from this lovely workmanlike but pleasing to the eye double decker.

Gerald Walker

Chris seem to recall that Sammy refused to pay Leyland the price requested to paint these buses (PNW 91/92/93) and had them delivered unpainted so he could save a few quid and paint them at Armley.

Terry Malloy

That’s quite right Terry and I really can’t understand why he did that – excellent though his own craftsmen were at repaints I have to say that they didn’t do justice to these three fine brand new vehicles. Sadly they also had pretty unsatisfactory “home made” destination blinds at first.

Chris Youhill

As an AEC man I have always also been a big Leyland fan. Among my all time favourites were Sheffield Transport’s 656 – 667, 1952 equivalents to this superb example. I fully concur with the opinion that Leyland made one of the best and, simply, stylish bodies on the market and that this, final, version was the finest.
656 et al were delivered in an experimental green livery but soon repainted when there was uproar from the good burgers of Sheffield. [Other existing buses and trams received repaints in green and were, similarly, swiftly returned to cream and blue.]
Early metal framed Leylands were a structural disaster. Leyland then enticed Colin Bailey away from MCCW – who arguably had the best metal frame designs. Leyland never had problems from that time onwards.

David Oldfield

Quite moved to see the Titan destination to the village of my birth “Water”- and more so because I began my apprenticeship at Rawtenstall Corp Motors in 1955. I was in the paint shop. I don’t recognise the interior photos, nor remember working on it – so I guess it didn’t come in for a repaint until after I left in 1960.
In the 1950’s it was all brush painted, and the foreman got to do all the fancy bits like lining, much else was by transfers such as the coat of arms. I’m totally tickled to come across these pics by accident, and it has made the day for a 71 year old verging on 17.

Barrie Petterson

I can imagine the shock and pleasure of seeing a photo of a vehicle with twin connexions with your past, Barrie!
As an aside, looking at the supplementary photos reminded me of the square dashboard dials which Leylands of this period possessed. I’d quite forgotten.
I was also interested in the heaters the bus had been given, something which should have been de rigour in buses working in the challenging weather up North, but probably wasn’t! I digress here, but my coldest (unheated) journey ever was in the RAF (1958) when, on Winter Mondays, I’d get something like the 5.30am trolleybus from Eastney Depot (Southsea) to Hilsea (N. Portsmouth), change onto a Southdown (PD2?) to Fareham, get onto a Hants & Dorset Bristol left out in the yard all night and with frosted-up windows, then, at Warsash, walk to the pier which jutted out into the River Hamble, then board an RAF air-sea rescue launch, staying on deck, across Southampton Water, to Calshot. At the office, it was stone cold and needed a coke fire laying and set going. We would not be warm until noon!

Chris Hebbron

The upper saloon seating capacity is most unusual for this type of body in being for 31 passengers – the norm being 30. Presumably Rawtenstall specified a seat for three on the nearside by the emergency window ??

Chris Youhill

16/02/11 – 07:00

Great to see this bus I rode on these as a youngster, when I was brought up living at Helmshore, I always remember the Haslingden buses were recognisable by the blue seating which remained after the merger. Proper buses! All the best with your restoration look forward to seeing it again.

Andy Bury

17/02/11 – 07:00

What a beautifully presented traditional Leyland PD2!
Presumably the top picture is the original livery style and the lower one is a later application, I cant decide which I like most, I think I’m tempted towards the latter!

Chris Barker

04/08/11 – 07:21

Yes Rawtenstall had an extra seat added on the top deck according to the log book also an acquaintance from Rawtenstall remembered the extra seat being added.

Gerald Walker

04/08/11 – 21:48

What a fabulous set of photographs. I have always loved Leyland bodywork particularly the emergency rear exit. Looking forwards to seeing this bus on the rally field.

Philip Carlton

10/01/12 – 17:38

This is one of the most handsome and elegant bodies ever built, the beautiful colour scheme immaculately applied only does it more credit. I was born and lived in Southdown territory and they had 54 of this particular type. The Leyland bodywork was always my favourite, the superb Apple green and cream paintwork looked absolutely gorgeous. In my personal opinion Southdown’s insistence on having half drop windows fitted improved the side view by looking less heavy.

Diesel Dave

18/08/13 – 06:32

A stablemate to this bus was turned into a playbus and is parked up on a site at Ewood Bridge completely intact 16/8/13

Martin Trickett

19/08/13 – 07:09

To follow-up on the original post: although the Boroughs of Haslingden and Rawtenstall were amalgamated (together with the Borough of Bacup, Whitworth UDC and part of Ramsbottom UDC) on 1st April 1974 to form the Borough of Rossendale, Haslingden and Rawtenstall had merged their transport undertaking to form Rossendale JTC on 1st April 1968 – they had shared the same GM since the early post-war years (who, at least in latter years, also looked after the Ramsbottom fleet), the Haslingden fleet was small (3 vehicles?), and Haslingden’s main route (Accrington-Bacup) was joint with Rawtenstall.
Just to drift off-thread for a bit: Ramsbottom was involved in the discussions concerning the Rossendale JTC (shared GM, small fleet, and principal routes [both Bury-Rawtenstall] joint with Rawtenstall [and Bury]) but decided to remain independent. Now here’s a question: by this time, 1967/8, I presume planning for the formation of SELNEC PTE would have been well-advanced, and the “original” SELNEC area extended north from Bolton/Bury to include Ramsbottom – so would “the Ministry” have allowed Ramsbottom to throw its lot in with Haslingden and Rawtenstall at that stage? If it had done Ramsbottom would have retained more influence over “its” bus operations – it certainly sought exemption from incorporation into SELNEC, on the grounds that alone amongst the constituents it didn’t penetrate the “central area” – and then in 1974 parts of the SELNEC area to the north of Bolton/Bury were excluded from the GMPTE area.
I presume that the second photograph is post-1968/RJTC – as two (I assume Haslingden and Rawtenstall) crests are shown. The Rawtenstall maroon seems to have survived on Rossendale’s buses in one form or another until the present day – despite last month’s rebranding as “Rosso”.

Philip Rushworth

19/08/13 – 08:59

I always thought that the ‘piece de resistance’ of Leyland vehicles of the time were the aluminium rear hubs. Sometimes it’s these ‘petites touches’ which often make the difference.
And I confess to never have noticed the two crests on the second photo in the past, despite looking at them several times!

Chris Hebbron

19/08/13 – 08:59

Haslingden might not have had the biggest fleet in the world, but it’s size was c.17 vehicles in the early 1960s, down to c.15 at the time of the merger with Rawtenstall.
Considering municipal fleets alone, Ramsbottom, Bedwas & Machen, Llandudno, and Colwyn Bay were all smaller – not sure about Lowestoft, I haven’t checked that one out.

David Call

19/08/13 – 12:21

Also Hartlepool with four vehicles, which were operated on behalf of the Council by BeeLine.

Chris Youhill

20/08/13 – 06:23

David, you are correct: that figure of three has been in my mind for some time – probably from a “Fleetbook” c1980 . . . so Haslingden was a more substantial operator than I imagined. But! 15 vehicles for a 1/3(?) share of Accrington-Bury, plus a few locals around a “not-very-large” town? – there’d have to be some heavily-peaked workings to justify that lot, surely! (If any site is going to find somebody with access to a 1967-8 Haslingden time-table then this must be it . . . )

Philip Rushworth

20/08/13 – 06:24

The aluminium rear hub covers would be supplied by Leyland in the colour specified by the operator and were introduced circa 1951, possibly in response to AEC’s aluminium hub cap, the Leyland “advantage” being the AEC cover was smaller and the AEC badge, which covered most of the cap, was always in AEC house colours.
The inclusion of Ramsbottom in the SELNEC area was always contentious. I moved to Rossendale in 1975 and it has to be said that both Ramsbottom and Rossendale were fast becoming Manchester commuter dormitories at that time and, with the lack of a rail connection and the proximity of Rawtenstall and Ramsbottom to Bury and Bacup and Whitworth to Rochdale, there was an argument for both departments to have been absorbed if not in 1969, then into GMT in 1974 – which makes the 1974 exclusion rather odd.

Phil Blinkhorn

20/08/13 – 14:58

As Mentioned in Gerald Walkers text, these photos were taken on the last day of Half Cab operation in Rossendale, November 1982. No 18 (just re-purchased, that day) accompanied the last two PD3’s 39 & 46 for a tour of the area.

Mike Norris

20/08/13 – 18:50

Going back to your most recent post, Philip R, Haslingden’s one trunk route was of course the one from Accrington to Bacup, as you had correctly stated earlier, rather than Bury. (Jointly-operated with both Rawtenstall and Accrington – as, indeed, you appeared to imply at one point).
The present-day equivalent of the Accrington-Bacup service, operated solely by Rossendale (Rosso?), runs every 15 minutes for most of the day, although there is a slight enhancement at AM peak M-F. In 1992-4, when I did a small amount of driving on the route myself, it ran every twelve, so going back to the 1960s I would imagine it would have been at least every ten.
Haslingden’s share of all-day workings would, I think, have been at least three duties (if its share of the route was a third, that is – which is a big presumption), and peak duplication or enhancement was much more common in those days than it is today. Add to that services to/from the Helmshore area, a service to Stone Fold, maybe other minor services which have since disappeared without trace, likely schools/works services, a spare cover of, I imagine, three/four buses, and you can soon account for a fleet size of fifteen. Still, I hope someone can come up with a 1960s Haslingden timetable – or a Rawtenstall or Accrington one, for that matter.

David Call

21/08/13 – 06:40

David, oops! yes, of course I meant Bacup.
I’ve always thought that this style of East Lancs/Neepsend body (pictured) was very well proportioned . . . but like so many before (and after) East Lancs subsequently seemed to lose the plot, producing particularly uninspired boxy d.ds and some frankly oddly-proportioned s.ds (although I’ll forgive their attempts at building coaches for Hyndburn and Halton[?] because of their quirkiness). Whichever bus is in the middle photograph (above) still has some elements of lining-out as late as 1982 – just over 30 years later and it will all be “Rosso”. (Apparently “Rossendalebus” is a bit of a mouthful, hence the rebrand – although passengers seemed to cope with “Rawtenstall Corporation” for long enough!)

Philip Rushworth

22/08/13 – 05:34

Regarding the Accrington-Bacup service, the running distance is 14.4 miles each way. In 1967 I was working in the area for two days a week and regularly driving along the route. This is from memory but the impression remains that Rawtenstall and Haslingden had equal workings and Accrington was the junior partner with fewer vehicles committed. Frequency was enhanced at rush periods when Accrington and Haslingden provided extra vehicles, including short workings from Accrington to both Rawtenstall and Baxenden – the latter a solely Accrington affair. I can’t confirm the standard frequency but a 10 or 12 minute headway makes sense. Bacup terminus would often see two vehicles together for a few minutes.
The date for the withdrawal of half cabs is interesting. It’s hard to believe that nearly 31 years have passed but I wonder if anyone can comment on any use of half cabs on both schools and driver training after that date.

Phil Blinkhorn

07/09/13 – 08:30

A strange feature of the Bacup – Accrington route was that the fares were collected in two sections; it was necessary to rebook at Rawtenstall, even though the bus was working through. I remember one occasion when I travelled from Bacup on an Accrington Guy; on arrival at Rawtenstall we caught up with a Rawtenstall PD2 on the preceding journey on the same service. The conductor couldn’t understand why I chose to stay on the Guy rather than transferring to the other bus to get going sooner!
The present day Rossendale service operates through from Accrington to Rochdale, Rossendale Transport having taken over the former Rochdale service 16 (Rochdale – Bacup), later Selnec service 464. The through service still uses the latter number.
The Rawtenstall fleet was officially known as “Rawtenstall Corporation Motors” – the use of the word “Motors” in the title of a municipal bus fleet was, I believe, unique.

Don McKeown

08/09/13 – 08:30

Wallasey were another corporation to use the term ‘Motors’ in their title, quite prominently so on the older vehicles.

Orla Nutting

01/11/14 – 06:46

This bus is now nearly roadworthy and is about to move under its own power from Taunton to Coventry so that interior restoration can be completed over this winter.

Roger Burdett

19/11/14 – 05:54

Roger has provided an up to date picture of his vehicle since it is now at his site. This picture can be viewed at //www.sct61.org.uk/ra8a

Ken Jones

11/05/16 – 06:35

I used to think the Rawtenstall livery was pretty special. Although as a kid I found the Ramsbottom/Rawtenstall fleets a bit confusing as the livery was similar, it was just the detailing that gave the game away.
Only had one ride on a Haslingden bus, and at the time I had no idea such a fleet existed. My reaction when it rocked up at the stop was (roughly) What’s an Ashton bus doing here? Of course, I should have known better even then, especially as the blue was a different shade.

Brian Wainwright

11/05/16 – 12:54

Like Brian I too thought I had seen an Ashton bus when passing through Haslingden as a naive 10 year old!
As a native of Rochdale I had seen Ashton buses in the town centre but my horizons had still to be broadened to include Haslingden.

David Slater

12/05/16 – 06:09

Brian and David comment on the Ashton blue against Haslingden blue. I’m wandering off topic here, folks, but I hope nobody objects! Clearly, it does depend on the film used, the lighting conditions and the viewer’s eyesight, but I’ve long had the idea that the shade of blue on Birmingham City Transport buses and on Royal Blue coaches was very similar. I know my eyesight isn’t what it should be, but any thoughts, please?

Pete Davies

20/05/16 – 14:21

The vehicle appeared in it’s new livery at the Taunton Running Day on May 8.
I rode on it-remarkably rattle-free and atmospheric.

Roger Burdett

22/05/16 – 07:22

The Haslingden blue was a paler shade than the from 1954 and onwards Ashton blue. Differing film stock does affect colour, as does the age of the original print or slide if not corrected. Having lived in both Ashton and Haslingden I would suggest that the Ashton blue actually got darker over the years or that may have been an optical illusion when the amount of cream under the windows on both decks was reduced.
Turning to the subject of this thread, my view on painting preserved vehicles in liveries they never carried in service has been aired here and elsewhere before but it has to be said that the Scout livery looks fantastic.

Phil Blinkhorn

27/04/17 – 15:06

Roger, I was allowed to drive the bus again by Steve while visiting in October 2016 almost 36 years since I last drove it from Cumbria back to Rawtenstall on the last day of half cab operation in the borough.I felt as though I had last driven the bus the previous week every thing was so familiar to hand etc. This was and still is a fantastic bus to drive I am so pleased to see it back on the road again. The interior restoration is remarkable, well done.

Gerald Walker

29/04/17 – 06:12

It will be running at Winchester May 1 and of course Taunton on May 14.

Roger Burdett

27/07/18 – 06:54

Can anybody help me with a gap in my Rawtenstall Corporation archive. I’m trying to find a view of Leyland TD5c No 33 registration number CTJ 165. Its the only one of this batch that I don’t have.

Gordon Young

29/06/20 – 06:30

Rawtenstall corporation 34 I mentioned in 2013 is looking to be restored been sat a while person who owns it still has all the seats and is complete bus front loading East Lancs bodied currently looking for help or advice with best way to proceed.

Martin Trickett

30/06/20 – 06:41

What help or advice is he after?

Roger Burdett

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

31/01/22 – 06:48

My last posting was at the age of 71 and here I am at 82 offering a picture. I am an artist and this painting, completed some time ago, is of Rawtenstall Corporation Motors bus shed in the mid 1950’s. Although the main paint shop was for total repainting [brushes] occasionally a rear corner panel would get a bump and need replacing. Clearly not practical to take the bus out of service. So here am I, far right, on my way to give a coat of red oxide primer. I would have been about 19 yrs old. The painting is a composite from online resources, so bus fans may recognise specific bus photographs on this site. My apologies if I’ve contravened any copyright. The original is on a wall at home and no copies of any kind were made. The other figures were actual men with whom I worked – though not all were painters.
As painters, our least favourite bus builders were East Lancs, who used to paint their buses in a totally open shed. As paint took about 6 hours to dry, an unbelievable finish dismayed us. We used to comment among ourselves that East Lancs seemed to have painted with a sod rather than brushes, the finish was enough to draw blood from a hand when rubbed against it. We also believed that their body shape was rubbish and thrown together. Sorry if these comments offend anybody, but I am now so old that I can say anything I want! So there.

Barrie Petterson

01/02/22 – 09:43

Sunday 26 May 2019 Displayed at the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust ‘Morecambe Vintage Bus Day’ which celebrated 100 years of Ribble Motor Services.
RTC 822, owned by Quantock Heritage as part of their hire fleet, is a Leyland bodied Leyland PD2/12 that was new to Rawtenstall Corporation (18) in October 1953. Now preserved in the livery of the erstwhile Scout Motor Services Limited, a company taken over by Ribble in December 1961.

David Slater

Ideal Service – Leyland Titan PD2 – YWT 572

Lower deck facing forward

Lower deck facing rearward

Upper deck facing forward

Upper deck facing rearward

Ideal Service (R Taylor & Sons)
1959
Leyland Titan PD2 (on older Tiger PS1 chassis)
Roe L27/28R

My thanks to Robert Gomersall for these excellent internal shots of a newly delivered Roe bodied Titan to R Taylor & Sons of Cudworth near Barnsley who along with H Wray & Sons of Hoyle Mill operated under the name of Ideal Service. Roberts mother was the daughter of R H Taylor who took over operations from his father R Taylor who started the business. Robert would like to know when R Taylor actually started the business, if you know please leave a comment.
The lower deck is of a normal layout for a rear entrance double decker, but as this is a lowbridge vehicle it as a sunken gangway on the right hand side of the upper deck which can be seen quite clearly in the upper deck shot.
The seats as can be seen are just two normal two seat units put side by side, looking closely at the shot it looks as if the right hand pair is set back a little, probably to aid passengers getting past from the left hand seats. I am not sure if there was ever a one piece four seat unit, if you know please leave a comment. The sunken gangway can also be seen upper left in the 2nd lower deck shot and people sitting in the seats underneath it had to be careful when getting up as you could quite easily end up with a nasty bump on the head.
I think these shots are extremely good as there is a lot of people who will of never seen a lowbridge vehicle seating layout, thanks again Robert.

Photographs contributed by Robert Gomersall

Born and bred in lowbridge country, I imagined till the age of eight that a central aisle upstairs was for trolleybuses only. A family trip to London taught me otherwise, but I continue to defend the lowbridge design against all its critics: it survived in production for over forty years essentially to Leyland’s 1927 design. Reading Corporation’s two batches (1956-57) of Regent IIIs originally had 27 seats upstairs (six fours and a three) but were later upseated to 31 on top, with all the fours now staggered just as in the R. Taylor PD2. I think the main point was to discourage generously-upholstered mortals from claiming more than their allotted 17 inches of seat-width.
Last week I was (silently) grumbling that lowbridge Roe-bodied buses never turn up at Southern rallies, as I wanted to see the internal details, and here we have Robert G’s superb shots! A prayer answered.

Ian Thompson

These buses look unusually uncluttered and spacious, minus stanchions. As for bench seats in the upper saloons of lowbridge buses, London Transport inherited six ST’s with bodies by Short Bros. of Rochester. These had a sunken gangway EITHER side and bench seats for THREE. It also had the Godstone STL’s which had one sunken gangway, but seats in alternate rows of THREE and FOUR. I never travelled on them, and, although they had rounded tops to the seats, I don’t know whether they were bench seats or not. LT’s few lowbridge D’s (Daimler CWA6’s) had a sunken gangway with bench seats for FOUR. The first batch came with austerity wooden slatted seats, which would have caused some instability in passengers when going around corners. Even on similar double seats, one rode by the seat of one’s pants (so to speak) around corners, I recall!

Chris Hebbron

Another operator sadly missed! I was fortunate enough to travel on the Ideal Service in the early 70’s although by then it was being operated by H Wray alone. These photos are interesting because I hadn’t realised that a new double decker had been purchased as late as 1959. Logically it should still have been operating in 1970 although I don’t believe Wray took over any of Taylors vehicles when they decided to cease operating. I remember walking down to Hoyle Mill from Barnsley a few times to have a look at Wray’s operation and it was seemingly just an open yard with an inspection pit, I don’t recall seeing any covered accommodation! I think at the end, Wray had 3 or 4 double deckers, (perhaps always so) I remember travelling on a lowbridge AEC Regent V/Park Royal (ex Western Welsh?) an early Lodekka (ex W Yorks) and the last vehicle purchased, a Dennis Loline/Alexander, this giving the service a (fairly) modern image at last but unfortunately not for long! I’m not sure but I think that Wray, unlike Taylor, never purchased a new vehicle, and in the last few years tried to make sure their buses were from ‘red’ fleets to avoid the cost of re-painting! I’d love to know what became of YWT 572 because I’m sure there would have been plenty of miles left in it when Taylor sold up.

Chris Barker

What magnificent pictures these are and greatly appreciated. The vehicle is obviously assembled from the same Roe components as Samuel Ledgard’s six AEC Regent Mark Vs in 1957 – the panels, windows and frames, seats etc being identical. The only differences appear to be, obviously, the lowbridge layout and the rather luxurious light fittings. Good naturedly though, I must contest Ian’s praise of the lowbridge layout – while it undoubtedly solved the problem of height clearances such vehicles were very difficult for conductors, especially tall ones like me, and tended to roll alarmingly to the nearside if heavily laden and on badly cambered roads. By the way, West Yorkshire Road Car Co Ltd also experimented briefly in the 1950s with staggered upper saloon seating on lowbridge ECW Bristol KSWs.

Chris Youhill

I was fortunate enough, at the weekend, to combine a family gathering with a visit to the Sheffield Rally. In turn I was able to travel on STD 1156 (PD2/30) bodied by my beloved C H Roe. It was superb, albeit highbridge, but in every other respect, bar one, like these interior shots. [It has platform doors and an emergency door.]
The Leyland design was patented and could not originally be copied without buying a licence. Although, at that time, AEC did not have their own bodyworks, the blessed Mr Rackham had strong ideas about body design leading to certain stipulations for pre-war bodywork on AECs. Qs, therefore, like LTPB RTs after them, had very similar bodies regardless of Coachbuilder or operator. Likewise, Regents had the “Camel Hump” body for low-bridge operations. This was achieved by having gangways on both sides, three seats in a row and – conveniently – avoiding any infringement of the Leyland patent.

David Oldfield

Robert Taylor & Sons (Ideal Services) was taken over by the Yorkshire Traction. The Estate account shows Goodwill was £5700; Motor Vehicles £3025. Unfortunately it doesn’t itemise the vehicles sold.

Robert Gomersall

Just a couple of further points, a photograph of this vehicle in service appears on the Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group website, Buses in Barnsley section. It is not a PD2 but a re-bodied PS1. H Wray had one re-bodied in 1956 with a Roe body of Park Royal appearance which became KHE 528 and Taylor had this one done in 1959, both previously had Wilkes & Meade coach bodies. The earlier one was probably tagged on to a batch being done for Yorkshire Traction at the time. All of them were re-registered, maybe the Yorkshire Traffic Area was strict about such matters!
Apparently this vehicle passed to H Wray in 1967 so presumably this was the year that Taylor ceased operation.

Chris Barker

I read somewhere that the staggered upstairs seating was a standard ECW option towards the end of traditional lowbridge vehicles (mainly KSWs I think). It was said to improve access, but I would have thought the reverse – inside passengers having to jiggle round the S-bend as well as clambering over the knees of the outside passengers (or more likely asking them to move out).

Stephen Ford

03/08/11 – 15:57

Anyone know if the operators which made up Ideal Service were ever involved in a proposal to extend through to Pontefract the no. 70 Sheffield – Upton service? This would have been a more logical terminus and would have required one extra bus.
I worked for “Tracky” in the 70s and remember Ideal (by then , Wray only) running an ex-Bristol Omnibus Lodekka in the THW series. (However see above the comment about red fleets!)

Geoff Kerr

01/02/12 – 16:29

‘Yours’ Magazine Issue 133 (January 2012) has an interesting article written by a family member of Ideal Services (R H Taylor and Sons) complete with prints for those who are interested.

David Allen

02/02/12 – 09:10

Chris B, the re-registering of this fascinating vehicle is somewhat of a mystery as the Yorkshire Traffic Commissioners did not insist on the practice. I may be way out here, but I have a vague memory that if an operator wished to have a “prestigious” modern number the rebuilt vehicle had to have new chassis frames to be eligible, although the original number could be retained out of choice. Can anyone else remember such a ruling please ??

Chris Youhill

02/02/12 – 11:20

Chris Hebbron mentions how uncluttered the interior looks without stanchions and handrails. at Northern we were instructed not to allow standing passengers on coaches or DP’s because they didn’t have handrails, and if you look at the photo where the capacity is visible no mention is made of standing. Does anyone know if this was law or just Northern’s policy not to allow standing?

Ronnie Hoye

02/02/12 – 15:09

I believe Nottingham’s Roberts bodied AEC Regents had no stanchions. However the seats had a profiled back that was higher than these, and a grab-rail along the (straight) top which standees could hang on to. They allowed the usual maximum of 5 standing. I suspect that stanchions were not just for passenger convenience, but also provided a degree of bracing against bodyshell deformation. The Roberts bodies were of notoriously substantial build, and may not have needed this strengthening. I seem to remember that in the railway field the stanchions on the Class 150 DMUs figured in calculation of the bodyshell’s structural integrity.

Stephen Ford

02/02/12 – 17:23

I cannot remember stanchions in buses like this. I think you hung on to the seat back grab: perhaps there wasn’t room in a 7ft 6in body. You just walked “hand over hand” on the seat grabs down the aisle. Not only are the seats unusual, but finished in moquette: upstairs were often leather-type- I always thought because of ciggy burns and filthy overalls.

Joe

03/02/12 – 06:30

I’ve just noticed a most remarkable feature no doubt confined to the lowbridge version of this model of body. The lower saloon heater assembly is of greater width at the nearside to allow it to fit clear of the sunken gangway !!

Chris Youhill

03/02/12 – 10:33

Interesting observation, Joe. I can’t ever, down south, riding on any buses with leather/rexine seats upstairs (open-top and austerity ones excepted, of course). All were moquette. And London trams were the same. Yet there were plenty of dirty jobs in London. I suppose there were special floors ‘oop north’ta cater fer clogs, not to mention spittoons!!
Seriously, I will say that it was disgusting to go upstairs in buses in those days – a smog you could cut through and the smell and yellow/brown ceilings. Ugh! If I recall, on single-deck buses, the smokers were confined to the rear half of the bus. Smoking was endemic. I recall the clip of the ‘white horse’d’ policeman incident at Wembley in the twenties. A huge cloud of cigarette smoke rose from the crowd! Amazing.

Chris Hebbron

03/02/12 – 15:22

A bit off-topic, but following on from Chris H, I heard a tale of a certain paint shop foreman at Eastleigh railway works, who was given a new paint specification for Southern suburban trains, requiring white ceilings. Foreman was a bit of a curmudgeon, and said they’d had cream for years, and as far as he was concerned they would have cream until he retired. After a while Southern Region complained, and asked why they weren’t getting their white ceilings. Said curmudgeon was called before the production manager to explain himself. “There’s no point in painting the ceilings white,” he said. “After a fortnight they turn cream anyway with the cigarette smoke.” “So,” replied the production manager, “You, in your infinite wisdom, decided they should have built-in smoke!”

Stephen Ford

04/02/12 – 05:31

It is possible although not evident in the photographs that there could have been a handrail running horizontally along the lower deck at the top edge of the sunken gangway. It wasn’t just standees that needed something to hang on to, don’t forget the poor conductor too! Each time I look at the pictures, I can’t help but make a comparison with South Yorkshire’s TWY 8 which was re-bodied around the same time and had an identical shell but with platform doors and superior seats. Two notable firsts for me last year were travelling on it and meeting Chris Y on the same day!

Chris Barker

04/02/12 – 08:48

Lucky you, Chris B. I had the privilege of meeting Chris Y last year at Dunsfold – but the riding opportunities were very poor. Hope the return to Wisley improves that this year – but I gather there is no link with the (new) museum!

David Oldfield

29/03/12 – 08:23

In an earlier post Chris B mentioned that he thought that Wrays may not have had any covered accommodation at their site. I can recollect that from the late 1940’s until the 1960’s when I left Barnsley they had a garage on the left hand side at the bottom of Lord Street which could hold two vehicles side by side. Whether the roof was high enough to hold double deckers in the garage I am afraid I cannot remember but I think that it did. I think they also garaged their coal lorry there.

David Galley

29/03/12 – 17:54

Chris Hebbron jokingly refers to the use of spittoons on northern deckers. Interestingly many companies in the West Riding had notices on the upper deck forbidding spitting. Many of the Norths industries such as mining and textiles caused long term lung damage and TB was still an ever present in the thirties.

Chris Hough

16/01/13 – 13:44

Copyright Ian Lynas

Sorry to be a bit late with this contribution but I’ve only just found this website and what a great site it is. So many memories that I cant concentrate on work.
However, the interior views of YWT 572 were superb so my photo of the outside is a case of having a really bad camera (an Italian-made Bencini.) Italians are good at most things but cameras was not one of them.
This shot was taken in 1967 on an expedition with (I think) the late Jim Pass and Glyn Weigh from Oldham to Wakefield and was taken in South Elmsall (Emsull to the locals) on a trip that opened our eyes to the likes of South Yorkshire Motors, United Services and Ideal (Wray of Hoyle Mill and Taylor of Cudworth). I was told that YWT had a Lydney body but as it was built in 1959 as a rebody of a Leyland Tiger PS1, maybe it had a Lydney body in its first life but Lydney went out of business in the early 1950’s. I think YWT 572 under its previous guise had a Wilkes & Meade body but stand corrected if not.

Ian Lynas

16/01/13 – 14:47

Nice to see the outside of the bus. I would imagine that the white flash on the front was a belated and modest attempt at 1930’s streamlining!

Chris Hebbron

16/01/13 – 15:24

It’s got an interesting set of headlight/fog lights

Andrew Beever

16/01/13 – 16:36

Yes, I had one of those Bencini things, too Ian, a Comet S. In fact, as a collector of old cameras, I have one now, plus a couple of the bigger Koroll. I agree entirely with your assessment of them. They were mediocre both mechanically and optically. As for the array of head and foglights, this reminds us that fogs back in those days really were pea soupers.

Roger Cox

16/01/13 – 16:39

When Robert sent me the interior shots he also sent me a scan of a photocopy of a shot of YWT 572 when it was just leaving Roe, it wasn’t very good but with a touch of manipulation you can see the original headlight/foglight arrangement.

Peter

17/01/13 – 14:44

I see that Chris Barker has said above that he did not think that any of Taylor’s vehicles passed to Wray, but later stated that YWT 572 actually did. It is my own recollection that most of the Taylor vehicles did indeed pass to Wray (despite the fact that Taylor didn’t actually sell out to Wray, of course), and that Wray finished up with more ex-Taylor vehicles than the residue of their own existing stock. If, as is inferred above, the Taylor fleet initially passed with the business to Yorkshire Traction, the implication is that the vehicles were then passed on to Wray. The relationship between Ideal and Yorkshire Traction seems to have been easy-going, to say the least – on at least two occasions YTC vehicles passed to Ideal, which then proceeded to continue to run them in YTC colours.
The Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group website to which Chris refers actually has an entire page of photos of Ideal vehicles, and it can be found here www.jsh1949.co.uk/ The pics are of variable quality, however, and the one of YWT 572 is only average.

David Call

19/03/14 – 07:42

YWT 572 did indeed pass to Wrays along with tiger cub TWX963 both used by them TWX later passed Phipipson Goldthorpe for use on its Thurnscoe – Sheffield service

Garry

03/07/14 – 07:20

It would seem that the Ideal service from Barnsley to Pontefract began in 1923 and that in the early 1930s there were five operators in the partnership:-
Taylor of Cudworth, Wray of Hoyle Mill, Lancashire & Yorkshire Motors Ltd, Hartley and Wilson (these three based at Shafton).
Lancs & Yorks acquired the Hartley and Wilson shares and was itself taken over by Yorkshire Traction in 1934. I assume Tracky’s Shafton depot was inherited from them.

Geoff Kerr

04/11/14 – 06:37

I lived in Upton, near Pontefract from 1940-1985. I regularly travelled on the Ideal buses, either to Barnsley or to Pontefract. I recall one particularly snowy winters eve, probably 1958/59, when the bus was having a problem negotiating the steep hill out of South Elmsall. Passengers were asked if they would mind alighting and giving a helpful push to get the bus to the top. Several of us young men did so and the bus made it. At the top of the hill we got back on and continued our journey.

Albert Jones

25/11/17 – 08:14

I really love to see interior views of vehilces from this period. Interesting how the upperdeck lowbridge layout has pairs of doube seats rather than the four abreast single type. I like the “cable” pattern moquette as used by York Pullman

Tony J Griffin

15/01/19 – 06:52

I can remember back in the 1950s an outing that had 2 busses.
One was a low bridge type and the other a normal one.
Unfortunately, there was a low bridge about a mile down the road and the driver of the standard bus had forgotten that it wasn’t a low bus.
It pealed about 10ft of the roof off like a sardine can.
Fortunately, no one was injured.

David M

15/01/19 – 08:51

I’d like to add to a couple of points above, both coincidentally contained in Chris Barker’s posts. First of all the PS1 which was rebodied for Wray reappeared as KHE 526 rather than KHE 528.
Earlier Chris B had commented that he didn’t think that Wray had ever purchased a new vehicle. In fact ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ credits Wray as having had three vehicles new, only one fewer than Taylor. The three were:
AHE 110 Albion CX19/Pickering B34F, new 1945 (later to Carmichael of Glenboig)
AHE 987 Leyland Tiger PS1/Wilks & Meade C33F, new 1947 – this was the one later rebodied as KHE 526
DHE 40 Leyland Tiger PS1/Cawood B35F, new 1950
Note the correct spelling of Wilks & Meade.
Taylor’s ‘new’ vehicles are probably more memorable since they mostly dated from 1952-57 and therefore lasted well into the ‘enthusiast’ era.

David Call

16/01/19 – 07:23

Just a few additional thoughts. As Chris Hebbron commented, the white flash on the front of YWT572 was clearly a late addition, since it obviously wasn’t delivered like that. In fact, it is almost certainly a consequence of the arrival of CCK668, the ex-Ribble/Delaine Brush-bodied Leyland PD2, which also features on this site, and which didn’t come to Taylor’s until 1966. Do you think that the white flash was an attempt by Taylor’s to set their own vehicles apart from those of Wray’s? Certainly, there seems to be evidence that the relationship between Taylor’s and Wray’s wasn’t what it might have been. YWT572 and CCK668 may have been the only dds in use with Taylor’s at the time, since, unlike Wray’s, they did make significant use of saloons.
Because Bus Lists On The Web quotes Taylor’s as having received four vehicles new and Wray’s only three doesn’t mean that they were actually the only new vehicles, in fact I’m aware that both operators received new vehicles in the 1930s. An additional vehicle for Taylor’s is actually listed, but it’s credited to ‘Taylor’, rather than ‘Taylor, Cudworth’ so you wouldn’t find it unless you were to know what you were looking for.
Chris Y, I don’t think that the Traffic Commissioners had any say in whether or not a rebuilt vehicle received a new registration, it was down to the registration authority, and the latter did have varying standards.
The link I gave in 2013 to the ‘Ideal’ page on the HPTG website doesn’t now seem to work, so here’s a new one. www.jsh1949.co.uk/IDEAL
David M, are you prepared to say which operator was involved in the low bridge incident you mentioned? It clearly wasn’t Taylor’s or Wray’s, since neither operated highbridge vehicles.

David Call

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

21/11/20 – 07:01

I have found H Wray jointly operating the 46 Pontefract – Barnsley service with Yorkshire Traction in the 1969 tracky timetable. You can see the joint timetable here – https://timetableworld.com/

Ken

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – KWA 545 – 545

Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1947
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

This is an all Leyland (H30/26R) PD2/1 of the first batch of 20 delivered to Sheffield in October 1947. These were withdrawn between 1963 and 1965 but then nine of them were reinstated and lasted until 1966. In May 1966 The Leeds and District Transport News came to Sheffield in Leeds 380, another PD2/1 with an early Farington style Leyland body and the two buses were used on a tour of Sheffield routes. I joined the tour in Sheffield and I still remember how the Sheffield bus left the Leeds vehicle standing on some of the Sheffield hills that were encountered. I always had a soft spot for these reinstated buses and 545 looks a fine sight at nearly 19 years old climbing Greystones Road on the South Western side of the City. In Sheffield in those days 18/19 year old buses were something of a rarity. The bus looks to have been ‘bulled up’ by the Leadmill Road Depotfor the occasion but still reflects the high standard maintained by Sheffield City Transport.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

Yes, Ian, they were long lived – 13 being the average age before withdrawal of STD buses. These were exceptionally long lived – even more so those which had a second life as driver trainers in all over blue. [But do I remember trainers being grey before that?]
I never rode “in service” on these but did the swimming run from Greenhill to Heeley Baths and games run from King Edward’s at Broomhill to either Trap Lane (Bents Green) or Castle Dyke (Ringinglow).

Superb picture by the way.

David Oldfield

NNW 380 became number 13 in the LCT Driving School, and when I applied for a job as a “direct” driver I took my test in it – at 5.00 pm in the Leeds City Centre rush hour. It behaved like a dream and after a couple of miles, at Tommy Wass in Dewsbury Road, the Senior Instructor said “Yes OK, straight back to Swinegate then.” I was enjoying the vehicle very much and said so – Mr. Albert Bradley, a gentleman if ever there was one, said “Oh, OK then – carry on round the Ring Road and through Belle Isle and Hunslet first.” It comes as no surprise to me that the Sheffield vehicle did better on the hills. I am not an engineer but it was common knowledge that LCT engines were “cut down” to save fuel. I’m sure this was a much misguided policy, as it undoubtedly resulted in ferocious, wicked and expensive vehicle abuse from a goodly proportion of disinterested drivers who were never brought to book – drivers who would boast of “being a fast man” and “I never come off late” etc etc – a reprehensible attitude, and one which allowed (and still does) operators to impose totally impossible and arguably illegal running times. I mustn’t get carried away with this latter subject because I could write a book with graphic illustrations of the scandal.

Chris Youhill

Thanks for the comment David.
The only one of the 1947 PD2s that was a driver trainer in mainly blue livery with two cream bands was D2 KWA 552 although it was later repainted in standard cream and blue. (I have photos of it in both schemes). The others were turned out in the standard cream/blue livery from the outset of their spell as trainers The trainers used prior to these were the 1948 Crossley/Northern Coachbuilders deckers which were certainly in mainly blue colours.
I can recall earlier trainers in grey – wonder if this was something to do with the wartime colours? I have a photo of ex 474 HWA 384 which looks to be all over one colour (grey?) and also one of ex 340 EWA 540 which is in a dark colour with cream window surrounds. Other than these I don’t have any evidence of grey liveried trainers. Does this help?

Ian Wild

Did remember the Crossley/NCBs but also wondered whether the grey had anything to do with using up war-time paint stocks. Thanks Ian.

David Oldfield

Yorkshire Woollen District – Leyland Titan – UTF 930 – 773

Copyright Bob Gell

Yorkshire Woollen District
1954
Leyland Titan PD2/20
MCW H34/29R

The above shot was sent to me by Bob Gell with the following comment:

There is correspondence under the Yorkshire Woollen District Tiger PS1 posting about this vehicle – I took the attached photo in July 1969 at Dewsbury Bus Station.

I’m intrigued by the total lack of opening windows on each side upstairs, with ventilation only from the two vents in the front windows – presumably part of its ‘spec’ as a demonstrator. I wonder if it was built around the same time as the Edinburgh lightweights, the ‘Monstrous mass of shivering tin’, as they were known in Edinburgh?

The vehicle was actually an ex Leyland Motors demonstrator and I think it was built to Edinburgh specification it does look very similar. I am not sure what year the vehicle entered service with Yorkshire Woollen District but my thanks to John Blackburn who informed me that it was renumbered 54 in 1967 and withdrawn in 1970 going to Norths of Sherburn in Elmet in 1971 and presumably scrapped. If you wish to read the comments on the Yorkshire Woollen District Tiger PS1 posting click here.

Photograph contributed by Bob Gell

06/02/11 – 09:12

This former Leyland demonstrator did indeed have an MCW body to Edinburgh specification hence the strip bell (see Tiger comments) It also had an Edinburgh blind layout. I only ever saw it once whizzing up Whitehall Road Leeds at a great rate of knots with its exhaust booming off the surrounding buildings

Chris Hough

06/02/11 – 09:12

With regards to Y.W.D. 773 [later 54] this was a standard Edinburgh Corporation PD2 that was taken from a batch that were being built for them. An Edinburgh Baille once described them as being monstrous pieces of shivering tin. Anyway I always liked it. The crews liked it too because of the Edinburgh style destination box it could show a lazy blind of the two ends of a route.

Philip Carlton

07/02/11 – 20:11

Edinburgh’s Titans may well have been monstrous masses of shivering tin but most of them gave up to 20 years service. Their grey and red interiors were still being used until the advent of low floor deckers in Edinburgh I well remember my first visit to Edinburgh in 1971 when every bus seemed to be one of the Titans. The other gems such as the Alexander bodied Guys just paled into insignificance alongside the Titans

Chris Hough

07/02/11 – 20:37

I had never noticed its lack of upper deck ventilation windows until now. Looking at views of its Edinburgh contemporaries I note that they all had two upper and two lower ventilators. Was the lack of upper deck ventilators on the demonstrator a one-off or was it a YWD alteration?

Paul Haywood

10/02/11 – 05:48

I worked for YWD at the time UTF 930 or 773 as it was known and loved was in service, this was the BEST vehicle on the fleet. As I said in another reply this vehicle was the most reliable vehicle we ever had!. It used to go out on duty and was forgotten until some one remembered it may need cleaning, a liner check, or greasing/oilchange The vehicle was fitted with Vacuum brakes and Leylands RP (Ratchet Paul) brake adjusters which worked perfectly (If maintained correctly) and only came in when it required a reline. Unlike modern day practice of relining an axle set we only relined one corner at a time, with NO problems!! The driver would fight over it!! And it made the most wonderful noise when accelerating (almost like a Ferrari!!!). I just wish someone had had the money to preserve it but alas it went to the big bus haven in Sherburn in Elmet, Norths Scrap Yard.(unless some one can tell me different!!)

Chris Bligh

10/02/11 – 09:07

Chris Hough’s comment on the Edinburgh “shivering masses of tin” took me back many years to when a temporary shortage of buses in Sheffield resulted in a batch of those splendid vehicles being sent south on loan. Visiting the Steel city with a friend one evening we took a random ride on one for the experience and were most impressed by its incredibly good condition. I don’t know the Sheffield routes at all really, but would I be right in thinking that it was on service 75 or 76 to Low Edges ?? The bus was full to capacity and on one very steep street in particular we were treated to one of the most masterly pieces of driving – starting off in first gear and going to full revs the driver changed beautifully into second without a click or a jerk of any kind – and the conductress was an immaculate efficient Caribbean lady with a cultured “BBC” accent and the politest of manners – a lovely journey to recall.

Chris Youhill

10/02/11 – 10:14

I wasn’t living in Sheffield during the “shortage” but still have family there and visit regularly. If it were a 76 Lowdedges then the steep hill would have been Woodseats Road. Had it been a 75 Bradway, it could also have been Meadowhead.
I was brought up in the Lowedges area of Greenhill which was originally serviced by the 38 (later by 42/53), the 75/75 originally serviced by the 59. The stop at the bottom of Meadowhead was a classic test of hill starting with a full bus with a crippling gradient. The 38 was basically an AEC route with Leyland input. The AECs posed no problems by the PD3s sorted the men from the boys with grinds, grauches and lurches! This stop was notorious and was subsequently moved back to a flat approach to Meadowhead, nearer Graves Park’s Woodseats entrance, to avoid the hill start.

David Oldfield

11/02/11 – 06:59

Thank you David for the information on those forbidding Sheffield hills – whichever was the one that I remember so well it was a most creditable performance by the driver – he must without doubt have been one of those chaps with a genuine interest in the job and a real pride in his work.

Chris Youhill

16/04/11 – 05:00

The reason they lasted so long in Edinburgh was the fact that the bodies were rebuilt every 6 years. The quoted phrase was – “They are ungainly, inelegant, monstrous masses of shivering tin. They are modern to the extent of becoming able to produce a perfect synchronization of rock `n` roll”. As far as Edinburgh went the bodies were a disaster,with front and back domes breaking free and the odd staircase detaching itself from the top deck among the other numerous problems such as cracking the nearside chassis rail, which resulted in expensive and time consuming body off repairs. The Edinburgh cobbles did these bodies no favours.

Brian Melrose

02/01/14 – 17:24

Most deckers of PD2s and 3s suffered this complaint of broken chassis rails which when you think about it all the swaying with a full top load of passengers over 10 years or more did these buses no favours l hope this may answer your questions on this matter. I am a bus enthusiast and have been for the last 50 years or so.

JohnE

03/01/14 – 07:55

Sheffield had their own almost identical batch of 20 Weymann/ PD2/30 but with more ventilation. The bodies were a nadir – and most unworthy of the name Weymann. Later deliveries were to a higher standard – more like earlier Weymanns. Going back to Chris Y’s earlier comments; in retrospect, my memories of STD drivers in the PD2/PD3 era are that they were well trained and generally drove very well.

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

24/09/14 – 08:38

I congratulate all those who knows which bus is made by who, all I was interested in was getting from A to B; never trusted any of the service buses, there was never any guarantees I would finish with the same bus I started with!
From Frost Hill, I did Batley/Birks, Dewsbury/Cleckheaton, Halifax/Leeds, Dewsbury/Bradford, but that was a story of its own, Huddersfield/Leeds, Elland/Leeds including Rastrick, but by gum, I don’t know or remember anything about bus types, models or the likes, I just drove them, so God bless those who remember so much. To me, they were Leyland with a cab, Leyland Atlantean, Leyland air/auto, Guy bronze box and crash box, and that includes double and single deckers; but, does anyone remember the new coach we got at Frost Hill in 1968 that was all electric push button geared, now that was a coach worth taking to the footy matches, but I made sure I was last there and first out, especially when Leeds played at home!

Donald Campbell

25/09/14 – 16:11

What was a Guy Bronze box?
Was it anything to signify the H pattern being different for gear changes?

John Blackburn

26/09/14 – 05:41

The original Guy Arab of 1933 had a four speed sliding mesh (crash) gearbox with “right to left” upward gear selection positions, and this box was used in the wartime Arab utilities. Towards the end of 1945, Arabs were delivered with a new constant mesh gearbox which had conventional gear selector positions. I would think that Donald was unlikely to have experienced the old Guy crash gearbox.

Roger Cox

27/09/14 – 07:09

Roger.I had the pleasure of driving former Burton Corporation Guy Arab 111/Massey no 18 when first preserved and this also had the right to left gearbox. YWD also re-bodied many wartime Arabs so they could still have this gearbox.

Geoff S

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – PWA 258 – 158

Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1953
Leyland PD2/12
Weymann H32/26R

Sheffield operated a number of occasional services to small villages and hamlets to the north west of the City. Ewden Valley Village lay about a mile off the main Sheffield to Stocksbridge route 57 via a Sheffield Corporation Waterworks private road and was primarily home to workers at the adjacent reservoir. Service 164 was sparse but included this Saturday morning journey taken in February 1963 with a few villagers complete with shopping leaving Weymann bodied Leyland PD2/12 at the terminus in the snow. The bus which was allocated to Herries Road Garage was one of the 1953 B fleet batch of 26 such buses originally numbered 142-167 but renumbered later in 1963 with the addition of 2000 to their fleet numbers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

24/02/11 – 08:10

Coincidence. Was just looking at 687 on the South Yorkshire site before I came here to find 158.
Ewden Valley is part of the beautiful Sheffield “Lake District” of reservoirs (and forestry) to the north of the city. Originally part of the West Riding, the area came into the city with the 1974 Local Government reorganisation.
Note the treacherous conditions with “raw” snow. At least the driver had a manual gearbox to help him cope. I drove part time for Reading Mainline in the ’90s and remember a happy Saturday morning in Reading when none of the side roads had been gritted. [I had never been skating before this…..]

David Oldfield

24/02/11 – 09:19

I worked in Sheffield during that winter. I can’t remember the buses ever stopping, but perhaps they did. I don’t think I missed a day’s work. This bus has- it seems- reversed into its terminus gritless. Presumably with a gentle bit of clutch work it will set off on that lock? Are today’s buses not gritless but gutless- these people wouldn’t have seen one for weeks? Despite the weight at the rear, does the transmission stop them getting a grip or are they just too long to control and the rear weight just makes them jack-knife?

Joe

24/02/11 – 10:11

Joe, I lived through some pretty harsh Sheffield winters in my childhood – notably 1962. Once the ploughs and gritters had been out, the buses emerged. The STD buses very rarely failed the burghers of Sheffield.
With a clutch there is far more control than any sort of automatic gives. This is one reason that all STD buses from 1951 to 1959 were manual. (The advent of “no-choice” on Atlanteans and Fleetlines put an end to this – and possibly the fact that the Atlantean killed off the last trams and was easier to convert tram drivers.)

David Oldfield

24/02/11 – 10:13

Joe – Many of us older drivers know that, in snow, you need grip, not power. The answer is to pull away and accelerate in a higher gear than usual, easy with a manual gearbox.
Also, modern buses have smaller wheels, I’m sure, so a smaller ‘footprint’ in the snow.
There may be other considerations, too, of which I can’t think offhand.

Chris Hebbron

24/02/11 – 21:33

What a handsome body was this penultimate Weymann style, before the advent of the “Orion”. I believe that this style was heavier than the Orion, and that it continued after the 1954 Orion body and was known as “Aurora”, availability continuing until the late 50s. In fact, Bournemouth`s MF2B trolleys owe much to this design. Not sure about my facts here, if anyone can clarify, but, as an enthusiast, I remember their gradual demise with some regret. They were, in my view, the most handsome of all bus bodies, and were a real “classic”, their ancestry being traceable back to the first Weymann metal bodies of 1933. A truly evocative photograph!

John Whitaker

24/02/11 – 21:58

In reply to Joe, I am pretty sure that the bus as pictured had driven in to that position, it would reverse to the right of the photo before returning to the main A616 and the City down the private road which is to the left of the picture.
The nearest bus route to my home was on a pretty steep hill and I can remember in the snow drivers would go as slow as possible at the bus stop whilst the passengers jumped on the rear platform. Rarely did the buses miss in those days. My first two winters at work were 1962 and 1963. The first I was at Rotherham, the second on the edge of Sheffield City Centre, as well as two nights a week at night school. I cannot remember missing either work or night school during those winters due to the weather. I remember the single skin upper saloon domes with ice on the inside – no saloon heaters in those days!

Ian Wild

25/02/11 – 08:38

Rochdale received the Aurora on Regent Vs until 1959 (including the famous Gardners in about 1956) and Bournemouth was receiving the Sunbeams until 1962. The Bournemouths were the same design – except they had five short bays – just as the Rotherham CVG6s, contemporary to 158, had five short bays (and were also 7’6″ wide).
The Orion is much maligned – often unfairly – but there is no doubt that this is a far better and more attractive design. Only the roof of the domes was single skinned on the Aurora. Around the front (and front side) windows was double skinned, as was the area around the rear emergency exit. All of this area was single skinned on the Orion.
As I’ve said before, the first upper deck heating on STD buses was the 1325-1349 Regent V/Roes of 1960.

David Oldfield

25/02/11 – 09:37

I can’t quite work it out on the photo, and it might be a trick of the eye with dirt/snow along the bottom, but does this body have the Weymann flair? If so, it would be quite late to have this feature.

Chris Hebbron

25/02/11 – 11:18

Yes, 158 had the Weymann flaired skirt. Also, PD2’s 668 to 687 of 1953 and 688-723 of 1954 had the flair. Straight ‘skirts’ were fitted to this body style for the Regent 3’s of 1954, nos. 178-199, 724-735 and 1154-55. Further deliveries thereafter were Orions.

John Darwent

28/02/11 – 06:59

This body design came out in 1952 or 1953. I have been aware for some time that Croft of Glasgow built similar-looking bodies, and have always assumed that they were Weymann-based – until I discovered that Croft were actually building them several years before Weymann! The one at this link must have looked incredibly modern in 1949.

Peter Williamson

02/03/11

Thanks for the Albion-Croft link, Peter W. The Croft body’s modern look is emphasized by the wonderfully thirties-looking Albion chassis–especially the radiator!

Ian Thompson

06/03/11 – 08:18

The Rochdale 1959 Regent V’s were probably the final incarnation of the Aurora design and what magnificent vehicles they were. When originally delivered in Rochdale’s majestic blue and cream streamlined livery they looked superb. The last four 319-322(TDK 319-322) had platform doors, believed to have been added to the spec so as not to be outdone by Bury Corporation whose Orion bodied PD3’s had this feature and operated on the joint routes 19 and 21T between the two towns. Compared to the Bury vehicles which I always found noisy and rough, the Rochdale Regent V’s with their semi-automatic gearboxes, were much more refined.
One of these vehicles was preserved at Sheffield Bus Museum. Is it still there? One of the 1956 Gardners is in the collection at Boyle Street, Manchester.

Philip Halstead

06/03/11 – 09:09

Yes, it’s still at Rotherham. [The museum moved!]

David Oldfield

07/03/11 – 09:27

I remember the Rochdale Regent Vs (and the preceding Daimlers with basically similar bodies) very well as I used to use the 17 service in Manchester regularly. What impressed me even more than the features Philip mentions was the interiors. They were fairly basic really, with leatherette seats and painted metal window cappings, but who would have thought that two shades of blue, together with a strangely translucent white on the ceiling, could be so restful? With those colours, the smoothness of the drive train and the soporific crooning of the transmission, a 12-minute journey on one of those was almost enough to induce an altered state of consciousness!

Peter Williamson

12/03/11 – 08:00

I agree with Peter, the Rochdale interiors were plain but very clean and fresh feeling. As a child I was a bit susceptible to travel sickness and somehow the Rochdale interiors seemed to calm my problem. It is surprising how interior features stick in ones mind from those childhood days. Manchester’s ‘standard’ bodies were very dark and oppressive inside with dark moquette seats and dark varnished woodwork. In the days of almost universal adult smoking the moquette seating seemed to soak up the stale tobacco fumes even in the lower saloon. We used to travel into Manchester from Rochdale on the 24/90 service, jointly worked by Manchester, Oldham and Rochdale corporations and I would always hope our bus would be a Rochdale vehicle.
The Oldham buses had some distinctive internal features I well remember. Hanging leather straps in the lower saloon with handles similar to horse-riding stirrups. A row of domestic style Bakelite light switches with porcelain fuse holders on the front lower saloon bulkhead above the driver’s cab window. The words ‘Oldham Corporation’ were emblazoned across the front bulkhead in gold lettering – civic pride still existed in those days! And finally the ‘Honesty Box’ on the rear platform. Did anybody ever put anything into it, I wonder? I also remember the Oldham Roe bodies were a bit short on bell pushes in the upper saloon and conductors would give the starting signal from the front with a couple of heavy stamps of the foot on the floor above the cab!
We seem to concentrate our interest in the exteriors of buses but not much is written or photographed about the insides.

Philip Halstead

13/03/11 – 08:05

Philip, I fully agree regarding bus interiors. That was the environment in which you travelled, and it was often very distinctive – location and style of bell pushes (or cords or strips), pattern of light fittings (before the arrival of standard fluorescent strip lights), seats and upholstery – even smells. Perhaps there are a few more interior shots out there to add another dimension?

Stephen Ford

04/06/18 – 07:03

This is a few years after Stephen’s comment which I’ve only just read, but with regard to ‘smells’, I used to love getting a green West Riding tin-front Guy from Sheffield to Ecclesfield back in the 1950’s. Unlike the STD buses, they were cleaned with a pleasant, perfumed disinfectant which I can still ‘smell’ to this day.
At that time, I think both West Riding and Yorkshire Traction buses carried posters on the windows stating ‘Cut the fuel tax. We don’t like it, you don’t like it, it must GO!’. Anyone else remember that ?

Mike C

PMT – Leyland Titan PD2/20 – 203 BEH – L679

Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1957
Leyland Titan PD2/20
Willowbrook L27/28R

This bus was new to Baxters of Hanley as their fleet number 11 in March 1957 and was acquired by PMT when they bought out the Baxter business in December 1958. It was somewhat different from the contemporary PMT purchased Leylands having a concealed radiator and rear entrance and by 1968 was one of only three double deckers in the fleet without platform doors. A similar but slightly older bus from the Baxter fleet became PMT L510 which was rebuilt with a MCW style top deck after an altercation with the notorious Glebe Street railway bridge adjacent to Stoke Station. L679 was allocated to Stoke Garage and is seen in Woodhouse Street outside its home depot on 10th October 1970. By this time it was normally only used for a morning and afternoon peak hour working on the Longton to Newcastle Estates group of services (numbers 98-103) where it was odd man out amongst the Atlanteans and Fleetlines. By the date of this photo was used in between peaks for driver training – note the slot for an L plate above the radiator grille. It became a permanent driver training vehicle in December 1972 and was withdrawn for disposal in 1976.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

06/04/11 – 05:00

Would I be correct in thinking that these ex Baxters vehicles were the only PD2’s ever bodied by Willowbrook in this style? By 1957, Willowbrook had changed their design for deckers to the more rounded style, as on the Barton PS1 rebuilds and several deliveries to that design actually pre-date the vehicle shown. I believe the very last one to this ‘old’ design was a Daimler CVG6 supplied to Blue Bus Services in 1960.

Chris Barker

08/04/11 – 05:00

Yes I did a bit of driver training in this vehicle but I must admit I liked my normal training bus better which was LEH 745 L337 NCME body.

Michael Crofts

28/04/11 – 06:36

I passed my PSV test in 1968 on L337, I preferred my training turns on L466 (now preserved) as it had a sliding cab door which I was able to leave open. I remember struggling with hill starts on Penkhull New Road!!
The Chief Instructor / Examiner was George Clews but I don’t remember the names of the other two Instructors. Rather unusually the Driving School reported to the Chief Engineer rather than the Traffic Manager.

Ian Wild

06/05/11 – 06:46

Hi Ian, Yes my instructor was George Clews but my examiner was from the D.O.T he took me into a cul-de-sac by mistake and I had a devil of a job doing a shunt to turn around with 337. Yes those were the days on Penkhull bank….

Michael Crofts

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/20 – YWB 294 – 1294

Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1957
Leyland PD2/20
ECW H31/28R

Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee took delivery of eight Leyland PD2/20 in 1957 of which five had Eastern Coachworks bodies and the remaining three were bodied by Roe.
The purchase of the three B fleet and two C fleet ECW bodied buses was made possible by the connection with the BTC through the part ownership of the Joint Committee fleets by British Railways.
These bodies were very similar to the those built around the same time on the final Bristol KSW chassis for Brighton Hove and District. They were certainly unique and the first bodies built on non Bristol chassis by ECW for a number of years.
1294 is seen on 31st March 1973 at the remote terminus at Wyming Brook which was an occasional extension of service 51 which normally terminated at Lodge Moor Hospital. The bus is about to reverse into the side road past the conductor who is nonchalantly leaning on what appears to be a rubbish bin watching me take the photograph. By this date the Joint Omnibus Committee was in the past and the bus is displaying Sheffield Transport fleet names but without the City Coat of Arms.
The front fleet number fits very snugly into the blank space originally provided for the Midland Red logo whilst the square front number plate seems to me to give the bus a ‘rabbits teeth’ appearance. I seem to recall that sister buses 1292 and 1293 had more conventional rectangular front number plates.
The bus was withdrawn later in 1973 thus having completed a creditable sixteen years in service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

18/05/11 – 06:58

A very smart-looking vehicle in the round. Even when told that it has an ECW body, the BMMO front somehow fools you into not realising it!
The only other non-Bristols I can readily think of as having ECW bodies, were the private-hire AEC Regal IV’s delivered to London Transport in 1951. Their bodies were unique, looking like nothing ECW had produced either before or after! As a nationalised concern, LTE was always subject to its chassis being ECW-bodied, but ECW was never able to cope with the volume demanded of it – with just 15, the RFW’s were an exception.

Chris Hebbron

18/05/11 – 10:20

Yes, Chris – it seems strange to see a non-Bristol with an ECW body, but there were a surprising number of exceptions. LTE not only had the RFWs, but also the Guy Specials (GS). Apart from rebuilds, other examples were the Southdown and East Yorkshire PS1s, the Eastern National and Bristol Omnibus PD1As, the Lowestoft Regent IIs, the Red & White Albions, and the Middlesbrough PD1s and Guys. Yet another example of how fascinating the bus scene was in those days, and I’m sure others can add to the list.

Paul Haywood

18/05/11 – 10:22

This bus like its brethren ended up with Yorkshire Woollen when they had a severe vehicle shortage in the early seventies It joined the ex West Yorks Bristols and South Wales Bridgemasters already shown on this site. Some early Atlanteans also went north to Dewsbury from Sheffield YWD used the top destination box on both ex SWT and Sheffield vehicles to display a fleet name The ex York Bristols had only single aperture boxes and just showed a destination.

Chris Hough

18/05/11 – 10:46

As I keep telling people here in Surrey, half of Sheffield is countryside, a third even in the Peak District. This area was always in Sheffield – certainly post WW 2 and close to where some of my family lived – typical B Fleet country. I always liked the Bristol and Lincolnshire highbridge KSWs, so I had a soft spot for these handsome ECW PD2s. [The C Fleet pair had platform doors – apparently retrofitted at Queens Road.] Sheffield also had B and C Fleet ECW Leopard coaches.
If we’re talking pre 1965 and the Leyland induced freedom, there were at least two other example of non Bristol ECW bodies.
They were:
(i) the 1947(?) AEC Regent II (with bodies like the 7’6″ Bristol K highbridge bodies – again see Lincolnshire) delivered to ECWs local authority at Lowestoft, resplendent in very un Tilling maroon and (ii) AEC Regal III for Lough Swilly in Northern Ireland with Bristol L style bodies.

David Oldfield

18/05/11 – 14:12

Are you sure this one went to YWD? They were the C Fleet buses in 1970, after the formation of NBC. STD lost the C Fleet routes and fleet but retained the B fleet buses and most of the routes.

David Oldfield

18/05/11 – 21:55

Sorry for the wrong information about these going to YWD it was the C fleet examples which went north

Chris Hough

18/05/11 – 21:57

As far as I am aware the B and C fleet vehicles never carried the Corporation crest.
1294 and 1296 were still in service in Sheffield in the summer of 1973.

Stephen Bloomfield

18/05/11 – 21:59

If I might hazard a guess (which may be wrong!) the previous non-Bristol deckers bodied by ECW prior to these were a batch of seven for Midland General in 1955. Six were re-bodies on Guy Arab II’s and the seventh was an AEC Regent III whose original Weymann body had been badly damaged in an accident. All were highbridge. I believe the AEC was the only Regent III ever to be bodied by ECW.
As an aside, it’s just possible that the MGO Guys and the Sheffield PD2’s could have met in Chesterfield, albeit working to different termini.

Chris Barker

19/05/11 – 06:38

The MGO Guys and ECW bodied PD2’s could have met at the same terminal in Chesterfield, Beetwell Street. Could have operated on service 99 and possibly one other.
Between 1951 and 1953 Western S.M.T rebodied Guy Arab II’s, Daimler CWA6’s, Albion Venturers and some Leyland PD1’S.

Stephen Bloomfield

19/05/11 – 09:38

C fleet 1153 was sent to Dewsbury in 1970 and lasted until 1972

Chris Hough

20/05/11 – 06:56

Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee service 99 was a single deck route due to very low bridges at Barrow Hill.

Ken Wragg

22/05/11 – 08:37

With respect to the two ‘C’ fleet ECW PD2’s that were transferred to Yorkshire Woollen in 1970, an interesting point is that although they were transferred to YWD ‘on paper’ as of January 1st, 1970, due to a shortage of buses in Sheffield at the time, 3152/3 (YWB 152/3) were operated by STD from Greenland Road garage ‘on hire’ from the National Bus Company until the 1st of May that year, when they were finally sent up the road to Dewsbury!
Presumably the legal lettering on these buses would have been changed to reflect their new owner as of the beginning of the year. That being the case, I wonder then if they operated for those four months with ‘On Hire to STD’ posters displayed in the front nearside window? If so, this would have looked quite odd, considering they were in full Sheffield livery at the time!

Dave Careless

31/05/16 – 06:20

ECW bodies built until around 1950 were ordered prior to Transport Act 1947 provisions coming in, they prevented ECW building for anyone other than 100% state-owned operators, like (in Sheffield’s case) the British Railway’s board.
Not only did that stop (Bristol and) ECW supplying previously loyal customers on the home market but it also killed a promising export trade, in ECW’s case including AEC Regals for the Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway and Leyland Tigers for Isle of Man Road Transport.
One ECW body for London Transport mentioned was the fourth prototype Routemaster.
In 1965 Leyland Motor Corporation exchanged a 30% holding in Park Royal Vehicles and Charles H. Roe for a 25% interest in Bristol Commercial Vehicles and Eastern Coach Works, by the end of 1966 Bristol and ECW products were back on open sale.

Stephen Allcroft

Leeds City Transport – Leyland Titan PD2/1 – NNW 380 – 380

Leeds City Transport
1950
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

This Leeds City Transport bus is at the Rivelin Dams, Norfolk Arms terminus of Sheffield service 54 whilst on a tour of Sheffield routes on 19th June 1966 organised by The Leeds and District Transport News (still in production today as Metro Transport News). Sheffield 545 which appeared on this site some months ago accompanied the Leeds bus on the tour. The notes provided with the tour suggest that 380 was one of the last of its batch in service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

24/07/11 – 10:53

A vehicle very dear to me – NNW 380 was to become number 13 in the Learner Fleet and was used to weigh up job applicants as it had, of course, a “live” gearbox and clutch. In October 1969 I applied for a job as a “direct driver” and reported to the Swinegate Headquarters at 5.00pm one weekday rush hour. The strict but kindly chap in charge of the Driving School, Senior Inspector Albert Bradley, directed me to 380 in the yard, settled himself in the front passenger seat behind the “missing” window, and off we went into the thick of it. The bus behaved impeccably, like a dream, as we went to Beeston, reversing into an awkward side street on the notoriously steep Beeston Hill (air brakes on the trams) and performing a hill start as well. Then into the long flat Old Lane – by now I was very comfortable indeed and enjoying the trip – where Mr. Bradley said “That’s OK, just go straight down Dewsbury Road back to the yard.” I said that I was really enjoying the vehicle and so he said “Oh, well then, go up the Ring Road and through Middleton and Belle Isle and Hunslet.” That shows what a genuine and respected gentleman he was, in allowing me to spend an extra few of the Department’s shillings in fuel on a pleasure jaunt !! I suppose in a way I was cheating a little, as I had quite a lot of experience in driving PD2s elsewhere, but I got the job and that involved being a “driver/conductor” for six months – although a chronic shortage of willing drivers and the need to accelerate the One Man Operated conversion programme meant that I did slightly less before qualifying for those.

Chris Youhill

24/07/11 – 17:48

The only Leyland bodies bought by Leeds 340-399 entered service in 1949-1950 Mainly allocated to Bramley these were stalwart performers on such routes as the 54 Halton Moor-Rodley and 23 Leeds -Intake for most of their lives. My dad was a conductor for LCT for almost thirty years and always maintained that these were the best buses he ever worked on.
Does any other Leeds bus fan remember the coin tester in the lower saloon ceiling and the huge circulation area at the top of the stairs.
Like a number of AEC Regents these buses retained the old style Leeds blind with via points to the end

Chris Hough

25/07/11 – 08:48

AEC man agrees that there is little to compare with an all-Leyland PD2 and I remember coin testers on Sheffield buses – but I had forgotten about them until you jogged my memory!

David Oldfield

25/07/11 – 09:03

From personal experience I don’t know much about LCT buses but Chris’s mention of the coin tester reminds me of a similar device that Huddersfield Corporation/JOC used. It was a metal bar about an inch and a half long with various sized slots cut into it for testing the authenticity of coins. It was usually located (on rear entrance buses) on the bulkhead underneath the staircase along with a wood and glass holder which contained (if I remember rightly) a booklet with the Corporation/JOC byelaws and regulations. Strangely, I can’t remember either the coin tester or booklet holder being fitted to front entrance half cab buses. However,this may be due to the fact that on rear entrance buses my favourite seat was the long inward facing seat over the rear near side wheel-arch, thus I was facing the staircase bulkhead and its fittings on most journeys, whereas on front entrance half cabs I would sit anywhere in the lower saloon so wouldn’t always be facing the staircase bulkhead to make the same observations. Has anybody else any memories of riding on “proper” buses.

Eric

25/07/11 – 09:04

Well Chris H you certainly have me there !! Having worked on many Leyland bodied PD1s/2s over the years I’ve no idea what a “coin tester” was in the lower saloon ceiling – please let us know. The Bramley vehicles also figured prominently on the 65 Bus Station to Pudsey route, including the days when that service terminated in Rockingham Street. I do, though, well remember the large circulating area upstairs – this was indeed excessive and some operators took advantage of this by putting an extra seat on the offside, thereby increasing the seating capacity to H32/26R. Samuel Ledgard treated most, if not all, of their large fleet of these bodies – new and second hand – in this manner. Even after this the step top area remained adequate for passenger flow. The retention of the original destination blinds caused a wonderful anomaly in later years – Torre Road Depot had a handful of the PD2s and often used them on a teatime peak journey on the 36 route which by then was a different service altogether and went from the Bus Station to Tinshill – still displaying “36 Harehills Oakwood” from the original itinerary in North East Leeds. By the way, although I was at Headingley as a driver and later a “bookman” I did quite frequently work at Bramley and I’m sure I remember your Dad very well indeed – Happy days !!

Chris Youhill

25/07/11 – 15:32

The “coin tester” was a small protuberance in the lower deck ceiling at the front of the bus shaped like half an orange split in two and around the size of a large grape I’ve only ever seen this on the Leeds Titans and was told it was a coin tester as a child Leeds were never lavish with bell provision on their buses until the advent of strip bells in the sixties I’ve seen a full bus started away from stops by a sharp rap from a coin on the driver’s bulkhead window on many occasions! One other LCT idiosyncrasy was the provision of a curtain blind on the passenger front bulkhead window for night time running was this unique to Leeds? The one on the drivers bulkhead window often had a small aperture in the top corner for the driver to see the inside of the lower deck.

Chris Hough

25/07/11 – 20:57

A blind on the passenger front bulkhead? I remember those in Nottingham in the early 1960s. Always annoyed me because I wanted to look out of the window and pretend to be a driver

A Non

25/07/11 – 20:58

Chris, Sheffield had coin testers and the blinds – inside the cab for the driver (with hole) and in the saloon on the nearside.

David Oldfield

25/07/11 – 20:59

As far as I’m aware Chris H, night curtains were legally obligatory on both front windows of the old style vehicles.

Chris Youhill

27/07/11 – 08:00

I am sure that London Transport RT / RM buses had nearside front window blinds – the ones on RMs didn’t go quite the full width of the window – see photo here //www.ltmcollection.org/images/webmax/xs/i00000xs.jpg
I can’t remember them being used in the 70s or later

Jon

27/07/11 – 12:07

This batch of LCT Titans always fascinated me as we drove through the Bramley area from Bradford on a frequent basis, and they always seemed to be concentrated in that area of Leeds.
As a Bradford lad, I was always fascinated by the differences compared to our own BCPT Titans.
The NNW series were almost to Farington style, with flush mounted fully radiused windows, and no rain shields, giving an ultra modern look which seemed enhanced by the 7ft.6ins. width. Most contemporary Titans at that time did not have this modernised “cleaned up” look, and I am wondering if LCT played some part in the development programme which led up to the Farington style which became more common with the advent of the post 1951 longer chassis.
Or did Leyland offer this style at this early date, and, if so, which other fleets received them on PD2/1 or PD2/3 chassis in 1949/50?
They were certainly very handsome vehicles, and, like all Leyland bodies, had a good life span.

John Whitaker

28/07/11 – 06:16

There has been a lot of misunderstanding about the so-called “Farington style” Leyland bodies. The latest thinking is that the name refers to this version rather than the later one. I do agree that it is visually enhanced by the 7’6″ width when compared to, say Manchester’s “salmon tins”, one of which is seen here //www.sct61.org.uk/mn3290.htm Southport also had some, see //www.sct61.org.uk/sp106a.htm and Sheffield //www.sct61.org.uk/sh621.htm and I’m sure there were others.

Peter Williamson

28/07/11 – 15:20

This style IS the Farington – experts now tell us that the final version is NOT. There does not, however seem to be a name for it. Sheffield had two batches of true Faringtons, like these Leeds examples, in 1949 – so they were not an exclusive, nor an experimental model.

David Oldfield

28/07/11 – 15:22

I’ve always understood that this version was known as the ‘Farington style’ Perhaps the reason that many people applied the same name (incorrectly) to the later and final version was simply because no one ever gave it a name of it’s own. I must say that the Southport example looks particularly fine!

Chris Barker

28/07/11 – 15:24

John W mentions he always saw lots of Leyland bodied Titans in the Bramley area. This was definitely home ground to these buses as most of them spent their entire working lives at Bramley depot which for most of its postwar existence was 100% Leyland. It got its first 30ft long vehicles (PD3A/2) in 1962/63
Bramley was a former tram depot which presented some operating problems the main being the fact that being built on a hill the ground sloped away from the original entrance on Henconneer Lane To ease access and manoeuvrability problems a second exit was made but this needed a ramp to ground level.
The original depot was closed and demolished in 1969 being replaced by a large purpose built one a few hundred yards away this is still in use by First.

Chris Hough

30/07/11 – 07:57

Sheffield had 64 ‘Farington’ style Leyland bodies in all, spread over all three fleets, 52 in the ‘A’, 10 sprinkled throughout the jointly owned ‘B’, and 2 in the ‘C’ fleet which was wholly owned by British Railways. Interestingly they were all painted in a variation of the standard Sheffield livery, which for many years came to be reserved for ‘Farington’ bodied Titans and anything with a body from Charles H. Roe!
Ironically, when LCT 380 came to town on its enthusiast’s excursion, it was one of the the first batch of Sheffield PD2’s, dating from 1947, that accompanied it around the city! Despite the body on STD 545 KWA545 being only two years older than the first ‘Farington’s,’ the contrast between it and the very elegant Leeds machine was stark, to say the least.

Dave Careless

08/08/11 – 10:20

MEMORIES !!
I was a “Bramley Lad” in the 60s and these bus’s were VERY close to my heart as my Dad drove for the Bramley Depot!
I have fond and vivid memories of the move to the new Towns End Depot, there was a very exciting open day where we got to ride the new one man bus’s through the Bus Wash !!! We lost Dad 3 years ago, I wish we had found this forum before he went he would have filled this sight with Facts and Figures.

Graham Morton

02/08/12 – 07:22

I’m surprised no one mentioned that some members of the 340-399 batch of Leylands were fixtures on the 38 Moortown-Whitkirk from many years between 1949 and at least 1956; I rode the route fairly frequently, waited for buses and trams at Moortown corner at least twice daily and remember seeing nothing else on that route, though I know other types did show up occasionally.

Andrew Young

02/08/12 – 11:25

There were in fact only a very small handful of the batch allocated to Torre Road Depot – a strange situation really, as you would have thought an “all at Bramley” allocation would have better suited their manual transmission specification. The 38 service, on a half hourly frequency and one hour a round trip, required only two vehicles and so its not really surprising that the “NNW”s gave the impression of being the universal type.

Chris Youhill

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

15/11/15 – 16:14

I worked at Bramley depot and drove on the 54, 65 and 77 routes. It was these routes that helped me learn how to do “snatch” gear changes, especially on Kirkstall Hill. The only problem with these buses was brake fade, after two applications of the footbrake (no air brakes) the vacuum brakes were useless. I can recall having a brand new Mini brake suddenly in front of me, and I hit it from the rear making it a “short wheelbase” Mini. I will always remember the PD2/1s as being a sturdy vehicle.

David Thorpe

16/11/15 – 05:37

I agree with you wholeheartedly David regarding the vacuum brakes on the PD2s – and believe me the brakes on the 30 foot elegant PD3s were even worse. As local folks will know, The Leeds PD3s in their time bore the brunt of the extremely busy Moortown/Roundhay/Middleton/Belle Isle former tram routes and I’ve had some alarming near misses with them when fully laden, and I think I can honestly claim not have been a “nutter” putting timekeeping above all else like some ill advised chaps did. I’ve driven PD2s/PD3s for several operators and the same problem has arisen with them all, and I’m sure that this was n reflection on maintenance – it was simply a characteristic of the Leyland design. In fact a very good friend of mine, a conscientious driver, had his own method of ensuring that the PD3s would stop safely – on approaching every stop he would apply maximum revs and execute a faultless change down from top to third – I doubt if this reflected favourably on fuel consumption but I’m sure that LCT could stand that due to their well known “run ’em on fresh air” policy. Now very oddly, I’ve driven a heck of lot of PD1s – one of my very favourite models and very appealing too – but their brakes always seemed far more up to the job. This is most strange because in size, weight and passenger capacity they were virtually the same as the PD2 and no doubt had similar or identical braking systems. Despite the enormous and widespread success and popularity of the PD2s/PD3s this aspect will no doubt remain a mystery for ever.

Chris Youhill

16/11/15 – 15:22

I paid a visit to the excellent Dewsbury Bus Museum open day yesterday. The highlight for me was a trip on the superbly restored West Riding lowbridge all Leyland PD2/1. What a tribute to Leyland quality – and I’d forgotten that Leyland pre dated the lightweight Orion with no interior panels below the upper deck waist rail. David comments on the all Leylands being a sturdy vehicle, this is borne out by my experience of the Sheffield buses of this type, especially the 1947/8 builds with the polished interior wood finish. Chris Y comments on brake performance on PD2s and PD3s. My experience is that the air braked PD2 was ok, the air braked PD3 less so. Spare a thought for drivers with the sole vacuum braked PD3/3 with PMT (see elsewhere on this site for H811) whilst all its brethren were air braked.

Ian Wild

17/11/15 – 11:01

Most interesting views Ian, and to be honest I’ve never driven an air braked PD2, all mine have been vacuum – apart perhaps for the one “RTL” that I drove, that being one of the ten Leeds City Transport preselector models 301 – 310. I had booked overtime at a different garage to my own in order to enjoy such a drive when the class of ten was down to two of three. I was so delighted by the experience that I don’t recall any issue with the brakes on the three hour piece of rather “gentle” work, consisting of dead mileage and duplicates.

Chris Youhill

17/11/15 – 13:40

I recall a photo of an impeccable SL “RT” on the roof of a garage, some time ago, Chris Y. You’ve also driven an “RTL”. What characteristics were different between the two? Or maybe you don’t remember, so relaxing was the experience with the RTL!

Could someone explain what the little white oblong box under the canopy, centre-front was all about?

Chris Hebbron

18/11/15 – 07:18

Chris H – well in simple terms Chris “everything was different” as with any AEC/Leyland comparison. The Leyland steering was far more positive and the AEC steady tickover produced a totally different effect from the flywheel/gearbox than did the delightful “hunting and gentle wobbling” of the Leyland. I don’t know if there was much difference in top speed but perhaps the Leyland might have just had the edge, and certainly had less tendency to alarming leaning when loaded. Both vehicles of course wonderful and highly successful in their different ways, such is the delight of variety. The rooftop garage that you mention would of course be Armley – the rooftop park was exactly the same size as the garage beneath and must have been capable of carrying an unbelievable weight. When Samuel Ledgard died in 1952 practically every withdrawn vehicle from Day One was up there – yes, including the original charabancs from 1912 – if only the preservation funds and movement had been as prolific then !!
Regarding the picture of NNW 380 in this topic, the little white box is the illuminated “Limited” sign – a moderately successful device for discouraging passengers from boarding on certain peak services where boarding and alighting stops were “limited” for the benefit of longer distance passengers. Quite a number of the blighters though were adept at taking a calculated risk by paying the minimum fare applicable but baling out in the heavy traffic which they knew was to be expected – they considered that the dearer fare was worth it for a quicker journey home. This was really anti social in perhaps the same way as people nowadays who operate pelican crossings and then cross against the red man causing traffic to halt for nothing later.

Chris Youhill

18/11/15 – 07:20

I asked this in another forum a couple of weeks ago Chris, and was informed it was to display ‘LIMITED STOP’.

Stephen Howarth

18/11/15 – 07:27

Even I can tell you that the little white oblong box could be illuminated to say “Limited”, Chris.
My memories of LCT were certainly these and those bare metal engine covers, which seemed to appear about the time of the tram replacement scheme in the 1950’s. That’s why that similarly treated “classic” Crossley is a mystery: as well as a few cranked seats, did other 50’s Leeds buses have rearward facing front bulkhead seats?
Did you notice, too, that the 1952 Regent III in the Gallery is from Roe’s big window period, whilst the Daimler/Orion shows, by contrast, what a miserable looking design these were. Good Pics though.
What a smart livery, anywhere, any bus. Progress is not inevitable…pink and puce?

Joe

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – RWJ 713 – 713

Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1954
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Weymann H32/26R

It’s 27th April 1968 and Sheffield 713 turns from Leopold Street terminus into West Street on another trip out into the country at Rivelin Dams.
713 was one of the batch of 56 (the largest single batch of buses purchased by Sheffield) delivered in March/April 1954 to replace trams on the Ecclesall – City – Middlewood route. Apart from accident victim 707, all the batch were withdrawn in 1967 and 1968 so 713 had only a short service life left by the time of this picture.
Nowadays Sheffield Supertram runs through the middle of this picture on its way to Middlewood but via a different route that 713 and its sister vehicles would have taken countless times during their 13/14 year life.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

13/09/11 – 07:53

April 1968 – my last few months in Sheffield as a student and I well remember these PD2s. Service 54 ran to a reservoir/control room just over the border in Derbyshire but was nevertheless a Corporation A route rather than a Joint Omnibus Committee B route, as was generally the case with cross-boundary services. The terminus was at the Norfolk Arms, now no more.

Geoff Kerr

13/09/11 – 17:00

Can anybody please enlighten me on the road layout at this point in 1968. On the face of it, there is a roundabout with yellow flowers but behind PD2 No. 713 is a rear engined machine seemingly turning right into Church Street ‘wrong way’. Also, there is a ‘No Entry’ sign at the Leopold Street corner.

John Darwent

14/09/11 – 07:43

Would that be The Norfolk Arms at Ringinglow Geoff ?

Roger Broughton

14/09/11 – 07:44

You’re not the only one who is intrigued, John. I was in the fourth form at school along the route of 713 when this was taken and cannot remember this odd layout – which is at the confluence of Leopold Street (to right), West Street (where 713 is entering), Church Street (where early Atlantean is heading) and Town Head Street (off to the left). The spire in the background is Sheffield Cathedral.
The Norfolk Arms was always well within the city limits. Even though they are different and wider now, there was always a great deal of countryside on the south and west side. In the post 1974 Sheffield, half the area is countryside, a third of it in the Peak District National Park.

David Oldfield

14/09/11 – 07:45

A one way loop had been introduced earlier in the 1960s comprising Leopold St, Church St and Fargate. Coming along Leopold St, traffic could turn left into West Street(as 713), right (wrong side of the roundabout)into Church St(as the Atlantean) or go straight ahead down Townhead St. Similarly traffic inbound on West St could use the roundabout in the conventional way and access Church St merging with the loop traffic from Leopold St. Sounds complicated written down but hope this assists.

Ian Wild

14/09/11 – 07:47

Nice buses these, but to me they always seemed slow and ponderous compared to the SWE-registered Regents with the same style of Weymann body, except for the outswept panels.
The AEC’s had that barking exhaust, and would come tearing out of the platforms in the bus station on their way to Hackenthorpe and Hemsworth, making Pond Street sound more like a racing car circuit than a municipal bus station. They had a smarter style of wheel nut ring as well, but I’d better not get going on that topic or there’ll be no end to it. What a splendid city for buses though, in those days.

Dave Careless

14/09/11 – 16:56

The Norfolk Arms mentioned above was on Manchester Road. The Norfolk Arms at Ringinglow is still very much in existence.

Stephen Bloomfield

14/09/11 – 16:56

What can I do, Dave, but agree with you. I had far more contact with the Regent IIIs than the PD2s – and did not regret it for one minute.

David Oldfield

15/09/11 – 09:27

Thank you for the explanation Ian. I worked in George Street from 1961 through 1964 but cannot for the life of me remember the one-way loop. Probably attentions towards the fairer sex had taken over at that time.
Ah well.

John Darwent

16/09/11 – 09:26

John, I think the one way loop came in later than 1964 which is why you wouldn’t recall it.

Ian Wild

17/09/11 – 08:04

Thanks Stephen, yes I know, we often call in when been out walking.

Roger Broughton

18/09/11 – 06:10

Photographs of this batch of buses always make me think of Endcliffe Park in Sheffield; you could see and hear them through the trees at the edge of the park, running along Rustlings Road every few minutes back and forth to Fulwood on the busy 88 service.
I remember going to the park on one of these one summer afternoon with my mother in the early sixties, and on getting off the bus, seeing for the first time in a toy shop window on Ecclesall Road an ‘Exide’ version of the Dinky Toys double decker. I pleaded for one, but it wasn’t in the equation, as despite whining and moaning all afternoon, it was apparent that an ice cream was as good as it was going to get! About four years ago, I finally bought one on eBay; it didn’t have a box, but it was considerably more than the modern day equivalent of 4/2 !!

Dave Careless

23/10/11 – 07:43

Hi very interesting site, much enjoyed. On this page, however, there is an error The Route 54 Rivelin Dams ran out of Pinfold Lane. The Route 51 Lodge Moor ran from Leopold Street. Route 51 was my first route as a rookie driver. The buses on that route during the 60s were AECs and on my first ever trip I was unable to get the handbrake off. I never experienced an AEC in driving school and was unaware that it was necessary to put ones foot down on the footbrake in order to release it. See this photo of mine of a PD2 I had driven to Rivelin Dams – //www.geograph.org.uk/

Dave Hitchborne

23/10/11 – 08:10

Sorry to argue, Dave, but the 51 and 50 left from Pinfold Lane – not far from Scout HQ and shop. I was a regular on the 51 from a young age, visiting family.

David Oldfield

04/12/11 – 07:46

Did the 54 later only go to Wyming Brook?

James Walker

15/03/12 – 09:30

Sorry, but I’m going to argue the point on this till the cows come home and my wife/clippie and I remember the Dore 50 and the Rivelin Dams 54 running from Pinfold Street and the Lodge Moor 51 ran from Leopold Street. Another reason for remembering the 51 running from Leopold Street is that it went from town via West Street and came back via Division Street and Barker’s Pool. On one occasion I was waiting to turn out of Barker’s Pool onto Leopold Street with a sports car in front when the driver of a Walkley 95 waived us both to proceed into Leopold Street. The sports car set off and I followed waiving and thanking the 95 driver when I suddenly realised that the sports car had stopped around the corner at the pedestrian crossing and I was inches away from it when I stamped on the brakes. The bus stopped, but my reserve conductor was hurled to the front of the bus where I heard him whack the bulkhead behind me. He then spent about 10 mins in Leopold Street instructing me on his knowledge of the English language. I believe his name was Abdul Roafe and I have a photo of him.

Dave Hitchborne

16/03/12 – 12:45

Regarding the debate on the 50, 51 and 54, I have had a look in the STD Timetable and the following is stated;

October 1951 T/T
50 Departs City (Trippett Lane) *
51 City (Pinfold Street)
54 and 55 City (Leopold Street)

May 1960 T/T
50 Departs City (Pinfold Street) *
51 City (Pinfold Street)
54 and 55 City (Leopold Street)

So, apart from the 50 moving a few yards to align with the 51 at Pinfold Street, they all remained more or less the same during this time scale. If there were subsequent alterations in the 1960’s, I can’t say as I don’t have the records but it seems that, at the moment, David O is ahead on points! Perhaps someone has a timetable to confirm departure points and routes taken in subsequent years.

John Darwent

17/03/12 – 06:22

Thank you for your defence, John. On reading Dave H’s post, something occurred to me. The 51 eventually became a cross city service to Gleadless/Herdings. At that point it would have travelled along Leopold Street from Gleadless to Lodge Moor. It would then go down Townhead Street and turn up broad Lane. In the other direction it left Broad Lane to end up going down Trippett Lane.

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

18/03/12 – 07:46

Regarding Sheffield Corporation buses in the 1950s does anybody remember a bizarre religious sect who took advertisement space with such warnings as ‘The Wages of Sin is Death’ and other warnings. Bringing the subject right up to date I notice that here at Lothian Buses we have a number of buses with the advertisement ‘Try Praying’.

Philip Carlton

19/03/12 – 09:18

Interesting observation Philip. Is the advertisement aimed at Edinburgh citizens in general, or just passengers waiting for buses provided by one of Lothian RT’s major competitors do you think?

Brendan Smith

Stockport Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – EDB 547 – 293

Copyright Roger Cox

Stockport Corporation
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

I note with some surprise that Stockport Corporation does not feature in the list of operators on the website, so perhaps this picture of two of Stockport’s excellently proportioned all Leyland PD2s might redress this omission. I believe that I took this photograph, which dates from 1969, somewhere in the Manchester area. I have no doubt that our Forum experts will identify the location. No 293, EDB 547, and its fellow parked behind it (No.294, I think) was a Leyland PD2/1 with Leyland H30/26R bodywork delivered in 1951, and was representative of a batch of 44 of such buses taken into stock from 1949 onwards. They were preceded by some 40 Crossley DD42s, all with Crossley bodies, and the Corporation’s experience of these machines was such that the Leylands were chosen for the 1949-51 deliveries. However, Crossley, whose post war factory was in Errwood Park, used the “local employment” argument to secure the subsequent order for 24 DD42/7 buses with Crossley H30/26R bodies, much against the wishes of the Transport Department. Thereafter, however, Leylands reigned supreme in the Stockport fleet. No 293 passed to the new SELNEC PTE in 1969, no doubt ultimately to suffer the appalling indignity of being repainted into the truly ghastly orange and white garb of that organisation. In any list of the worst bus liveries of all time, the SELNEC effort must surely rank near the top, even against strong challenges from the present day privatised crop of aesthetic abominations.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

06/10/11 – 07:12

Could we have a league table of hideous liveries? South Yorkshire’s bilious yellow & red was pretty bad- Yorkshire Rider wasn’t wonderful as isn’t Fussy First either, but the award surely goes to Lincs Roadcar/Yorkshire Traction (did both have it?) low floor purple and yellow. For sheer design boredom, we have to go back to NBC who also managed to pick some pretty horrid shades, which takes some doing in red and green.

Joe

06/10/11 – 07:13

This photograph is taken in early SELNEC days (they have SELNEC legal lettering). These were the first of a variety of Stockport buses to work from the former SHMD depot in Stalybridge. They were most of the remaining Leyland-bodied PD2s from Stockport – 293, 297-9 and 303-306 (EDB 547/51-3/7-60).
These ran for a couple of years and survived to be given their SELNEC fleet numbers (5913/7-9/23-6). However, for some time two of them (297/8) received SHMD fleet numbers 51/2, using standard SHMD transfers. Remarkably, 52 was fully repainted in SHMD green. (It is perhaps worth noting here that Stockport 302 was transferred to Oldham and repainted in Oldham pommard and cream, in this instance initially being numbered 5202 as if it was a former Oldham bus. This was soon changed to the correct 5922.)
The renumbering took place, from memory in early 1971 so I suspect your shot is from 1970. It is in Stalybridge bus station. For comparison there is a photo of my own on this site in almost exactly the same location at this link.
Whilst I understand your sentiments about the orange livery as it didn’t generally sit very well on older buses, I think it served its political (i.e. neutral) objectives and orange became very successfully synonymous with Manchester area buses for many years.

David Beilby

06/10/11 – 07:14

Quite a number of this batch were sold to Berresfords of Cheddleton and were a familiar sight at Longton Bus Station still in Stockport livery having worked on the service from Leek.

Ian Wild

All Leyland PD2s rank among my all time favourites. I never really came across these, despite being a student in Manchester from 1971 – 1975 (and then ’til 1976 in Warrington).
Living in South Manchester I was very aware of the Stockport East Lancs PD2s (and the Crossley PD2s as well). What immediately struck one was how superbly turned out and maintained they were in stark contrast to the Manchester fleet. The “all red” Manchester livery with painted window surrounds must have been an all time low – pictures of the earlier Red/Cream looked so much better.

David Oldfield

07/10/11 – 13:25

Manchester buses in the early 1960’s (pre-Bennett era) always gave me the impression they were painted by some sort of dipping process. Everything apart from the tyres and glass was red! The fleet at this time really had a careworn appearance.
On the subject of Crossleys, the company seemed to get a lot of business on the basis of the ‘local jobs’ card in the early post-war era. Not only Stockport but Manchester and Oldham took large deliveries and one detects local politicians overriding the wishes of the professionals when these decisions were made.

Philip Halstead

08/10/11 – 05:22

I read recently the phrase “distress purchasing” referring to what people buy that they can afford, or what is available, as opposed to what they really wanted (eg Korean or Communist block cars of time gone by). Just about all post war Crossleys were distress purchases. People bought whatever was available in a bid to buy sufficient vehicles to replace those worn out by war time privation. Very few chose to buy Crossley. It is well documented that Stuart Pilcher (Manchester) always wanted to buy AECs but the Manchester Councillors always blocked it, insisting on Crossleys because they were local. Sheffield’s post war Crossleys were all transferred from orders made by other authorities – their preferred AECs, not to mention Weymann bodies, not available in sufficient numbers.

David Oldfield

11/10/11 – 05:23

I really must spring to the defence of the original SELNEC livery. At the time I didn’t like it either, since it obliterated all those splendid municipal liveries, and there’s no doubt it looked pretty awful when applied to some older types, and when it was badly weathered. However, if you look at the SELNEC Standards, for which it was designed, the proportions of the paint perfectly complement the body style. Looking back forty years on, it was light years ahead of the ghastly insipid schemes adopted by all the other PTEs and NBC, and was a real trend-setter. And (whisper it softly) a few of the older buses actually looked quite well in it: Stockport’s East-Lancs PDs being a notable case.

David Jones

11/10/11 – 05:24

General opinion seems to be that there was nothing wrong with the postwar Crossley except its engine. The same could also be said of that other postwar “distress purchase” the Daimler CVD6, necessitated mainly by a shortage of Gardner engines. Birmingham numbered both types among its tin-front standards, but by the time those Crossleys were delivered, AEC had purchased Crossley and sorted out its engine problems. I once met someone from Birmingham who had worked on both types, and he said that the Crossleys were far superior to the Daimlers!

Peter Williamson

11/10/11 – 12:03

The engine is rather important, though. Sheffield had some distress purchased CV6s as well. Again, the engine was rather critical. [Earlier posts on this web-site tell of the Daimler engines’ weaknesses better than I.] Having said that, all that Peter says is true.

David Oldfield

11/10/11 – 12:05

Certainly the basic Crossley chassis was well engineered, but in addition to the engine, which AEC improved, but could never make into a really sound unit, Crossley steering was always exceedingly heavy, and the three axle Dominion trolleybuses were nigh on impossible in this respect. The characteristic that emerges from Crossley, apparently due in no small part to the personality of Managing Director Arthur Hubble, is the refusal to listen to or learn from customers.

Roger Cox

09/04/12 – 06:42

I agree with the defence of the Selnec livery. I actually quite liked the original orange and white and some buses looked good in it, the Mancunians and Selnec Standards particularly so. I also thought some of Manchesters late batches of PD2s in the 36xx and 37xx series suited it too, in an odd way.
I didn’t like the later GMT livery which incorporated brown however.

David Pomfret

13/05/12 – 08:39

I used these buses regularly in the 1960s on the 92 route mainly but also on the 74 and 40. The Leylands were superb so the drivers of the underdog Crossleys often needed to prove that actually they were better. However sometimes from the back of the depot a couple of Guy Arabs emerged. These had protruding radiators and wartime blackout blinds in their rear upstairs windows. It was almost a privilege to get a ride on one of these. They all seemed like they would last for ever but they are probably all gone now.

Malcolm

12/06/12 – 18:56

As a youngster in Stockport during the 1950’s I was always struck by the different sounds which came from the Leylands and the Crossleys. The Leylands seem to have a ‘breathy, wheezing’ sound, whereas the Crossleys would give out a ‘groaning, grinding’ sound…
That said, there was nothing better than to stand at the roadside and hear (were they the last batch bought by Stockport??) the newer Crossleys on the ‘flagship’ 33 route from Manchester to Romiley – a limited stop route where much higher than normal speeds were evident between stops which were sometimes almost a mile apart….
A bit off track, and apologies, but I wonder if anyone has any pictures or remembers the rather unique ten Leylands purchased by Stockport which had Longwell Green bodies ? I think that they were perhaps the last vehicles ever purchased by Stockport, and eventually replaced the Crossleys on the 33 route before passing over to SELNEC. Vivid memories of using them, although I’ve never been able to track down a picture of them – even here we don’t list Longwell Green amongst the body builders and maybe Stockport’s were the only examples in municipal service.

Stuart C

13/06/12 – 08:06

Stuart there are shots of the Longwell Green PD2s on www.sct61.org.uk dating from 1960 these unusual buses always looked very ECW in appearance to my mind. From 1962 Stockport bought exposed radiator East Lancs bodied PD2s and finally PD3s with front entrance bodywork. They actually ordered Bristol VRs but these were written off in the East Lancs fire.

Chris Hough

13/06/12 – 08:07

Stuart, I’d forgotten about the Longwell Greens until you mentioned them. [I was a student and then worked in the South Manchester area from 1971 – 1980.] The last Leylands for Stockport were PD3/East Lancs in 1968/9. Longwell Green, I believe came from the Bristol area but were very popular for a time with Newport (South Wales) Corporation.

David Oldfield

13/06/12 – 08:10

Ref the comment about Municipal operation of Longwell Green bodies. There were certainly LG bodies on Leylands at Newport and from memory a number of the smaller Welsh municipalities also used this bodybuilder.

Andrew

13/06/12 – 08:11

Stuart…Might this be a picture of the Leyland/Longwell Green buses that you recall? It is quite a handsome design with interesting and unusual details. //www.flickr.com/

Richard Leaman

13/06/12 – 08:12

I have a couple of photographs of these Longwell Green bodies online and visible here and here Both show these buses working from Oldham in 1973, but still in Stockport livery. I don’t believe any ran in service in orange but many of the batch did get the orange livery as they became training buses, in which role they ended up being seen all over Manchester. The EDB Crossleys would have been more lively than the earlier examples as they had the later and more effective downdraught engine – probably why they were used on that service. Longwell Green were based in Bristol and did quite a bit of rebuilding as well as new bodies. They seemed to find a market in South Wales with Newport in particular buying a lot of (exposed-radiator) PD2s with their bodies. The last I’m aware of were two 1966 AEC Regent Vs with front-entrance bodies for Pontypridd Urban District Council in 1966.

David Beilby

13/06/12 – 16:58

Thanks everyone….And particularly to Chris for his link to PJA 913….I’ve spent a couple of years trying to find a photo of this batch, and I’d have to say that having seen this one last night they were as elegant as my memory would have it….Different enough to be different enough, if you know what I mean….Does anyone have any idea why, out of the blue, Stockport chose Longwell Green ??
Also on the same page is a wonderful picture of EDB 578, one of the final Crossleys that I was talking about – and wouldn’t you know, operating the 33 route from Manchester to Romiley and ( on this picture ) Greave….I can’t remember if the 33 route was a joint operation with Manchester, perhaps it was, but there also used to be the older Manchester Crossleys which always operated the Manchester only 109 route from Reddish via Gorton to Manchester City Centre….Memories of taking both routes on the same day and even as a youngster being aware of the difference in acceleration and speed between the older Manchester vehicles and the then cream-of-the-fleet Stockport vehicles….
Terrific memories….

Stuart C

14/06/12 – 07:38

Sorry to wander away from Stockport Corporation a little but there’s something odd about the vehicle in Richard’s link. The date of the Longwell Green body is given as 1955 and I took it to be a PD2 at first glance but the registration, EBX, was issued in March 1948. The radiator suggests that it could be a re-bodied PD1. The date of the body would be correct, it’s certainly not a 1948 body. There was an article on here a while ago which I think had a link to a James fleet history but I’m unable to find it now. Does anyone have the details about this vehicle?

Chris Barker

26/09/12 – 06:57

Stockport ordered Longwell Green bodies due to price and the demise of its traditional bodybuilders- Crossley and Leyland. Apart from the English Electric bodied pre-war Tigers, and the wartime Guy Arabs (in that instance Stockport didn’t have a choice) the fleet was traditionally Leyland and Crossley bodied.
From conversations with people in the works and depot in the 1960s the bodies were excellent but no repeat order was made as Stockport’s manager, Eric Baxter,was due to retire in 1962 and wanted to start a fleet renewal policy with a standard vehicle, before he went. He thus ordered PD2s again but, needing continuity of supply and the possibility of large (for Stockport) orders by the middle of the decade, he needed a larger builder than Longwell Green which mixed bus building with its main occupation of van building.
Frank Brimelow replaced Eric Baxter and by 1963 had worked with East Lancs to refine a very traditional body to Stockport’s needs, a lineage that lasted until SELNEC took over. Ironically East Lancs couldn’t cope with Stockport’s needs by the middle of the decade and had to sub let one order to its Neepsend subsidiary.
There are comments that the Longwell Green bodies have an ECW look. This may be so but the story I was told was that the frames were from Burlingham who ceased double deck production in 1960. Stockport had wanted Burlingham to tender as Baxter greatly admired the Manchester Burlingham bodies delivered from the mid 50s. As Stockport had not needed new vehicles between the all Leyland and all Crossley buses of the early 1950s, his only chance to order Burlingham bodies came with the 1957 order for PD2s which higher authority insisted was given to Crossley – a bad decision as Crossley closed down before the order was completed and some of the bodies were finished by the Corporation.

Phil Blinkhorn

26/09/12 – 16:01

Chris B: Well spotted – EBX 663 was a rebodied PS1. According to the PSV Circle fleet history of South Wales Transport, who took over James in 1962, it was new in 1948 to James; in 1954, it was converted to PD1 spec including new chassis frames, by Western Welsh at their Ely Works, then rebodied by Longwell Green. No details of the original bodywork,unfortunately.

Bob Gell

26/09/12 – 17:23

New chassis frames – new body – sounds a bit like Paddy’s original brush, or Caesar’s original penknife. (Accountant’s rebuilds as certain classes of Great Western Railway steam locos were laughingly called!)

Stephen Ford

03/10/12 – 06:12

PHIL…
Thanks for the detailed info/explanation…
I always wondered how and /or why these Longwell Green bodies arrived in Stockport’s fleet…As I said earlier, complete oddballs in the North West of the 60’s…
You say that they were ‘excellent’ although of course, I didn’t really notice or appreciate engineering quality in those days – it was all about the ‘look’…
But any idea what happened to this batch after SELNEC ?? Straight to a date with a blowtorch, or did they live on somewhere, hopefully in a less ‘garish’ livery….
Thanks again…

Stuart C

03/10/12 – 10:18

To the best of my knowledge all the Longwell Green PD2s went to the breakers after further service with SELNEC.
They fell victim to both SELNEC’s reduced life policy and the drive to change all services to OMO around 1973, though 348 (PJA 918) stayed on as TV1 (Training Vehicle 1) in the driver training fleet. I don’t have a date for withdrawal.
As SELNEC maintained a wide range of MCTD policies, almost all vehicles withdrawn went for scrap (a policy which left large gaps in the range of MCTD vehicles available for preservation) and this also reduced the availability of vehicles from other fleets absorbed.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/10/12 – 07:37

There are numerous references in a variety of publications and forum posts to the Stockport Longwell Green PD2 having a look of ECW about them and, in fairness, the output from ECW on Leyland PD1s do seem to have some resemblance. http.www.sct61.org.uk/nw217.
The Stockport bodies were almost the ultimate development of the Longwell Green genre which had been around for half a decade or more.
Before leaving on my trip I tried to research any link between Longwell Green, Bristol and ECW. The only link I can find is that Bristol built bus bodies until around 1955 which, after WW2, resembled ECW products, ECW at that time of course was THE builder on Bristol chassis for the Tilling Group.
At the same time Bristol was building cabs for its trucks. When it closed the Brislington bodyshop it transferred the cab jigs to Longwell Green.
Other than that there seems to be no link.
The Longwell Green/Burlingham link is equally difficult to prove. Apart from what I was told at Stockport the body style looks like a toned down version of the Burlingham product, the spectacle type of rear upper deck emergency exit windows being the major visual link.
As Longwell Green used the style well in advance of Burlingham finishing double decker production, I assume there must be some record somewhere of an agreement.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/10/12 – 09:44

Phil..Could the link between Longwell Green and ECW be as simple as LG Coachworks being in Bristol (about five miles from the Bristol factory) and simply that the designers were surrounded every day by ECW designs and so copied a lot of the detail into their work. ECW bodies were in my opinion beautifully built and highly workmanlike so maybe they thought that was a good one to emulate.

Richard Leaman

15/10/12 – 16:56

Richard,
That is, of course, possible.

Phil Blinkhorn

24/10/12 – 11:19

As Phil Blinkhorn says, the main key to the belief that the Longwell Green bodies are on Burlingham frames is in the rear profile of these buses. Search Flikr for “Stockport Corporation Bus” and a picture of #343 parked up on route #40 should emerge. There are other steers too. The radius on the window frames and more so on the destination and route number frames suggest that there are Burlingham influences there too.
Many prefer the Burlingham bodied batch of PD2’s that Manchester Corporation to the contemporaneous MCW products. Not I, nor the Burlingham bodied CVG’s that Manchester acquired at the same time.
Despite all the problems that Stockport Corporation had in obtaining (and finishing some of) the Crossley bodied PD2’s they remain quite my favourite combination of PD2 bodies for SCTD. 4 bays beat 5 in my book on 27′ double deckers.
And finally, how nice to see a SCTD Crossley bodied Leyland running around Stockport again after all these years. I refer of course to Tiger Cub #403.

Orla Nutting

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/06/13 – 06:55

One of the Longwell Greens certainly did run in service in orange – 5947 (347). I remember being surprised in the autumn of 1974 when, after having been the last one remaining in service for some time and I assumed due for early withdrawal(although many others had of course become trainers in orange)it reappeared in the then-new darker orange GMT livery. It then lasted until about October 1978 I think. These bodies may have been excellent but the two things I noticed about them was the finish inside, which wasn’t really up to the later East Lancs standard, no grab rails at the front upstairs for instance, and the extreme degree of body roll when cornering, again compared to the EL ones.

Michael Keeley

03/06/13 – 08:35

I feel that I must speak in favour of the Yorkshire Rider livery. It was bold but professional and very dignified in rich green and cream, and the prominent red fleetname with former districts’ identities was quite masterly – especially since the Company name and the livery had to be devised with indecent haste in the unbelievable confusion leading up to De-regulation Day in October 1986.

Chris Youhill

04/06/13 – 06:46

The Yorkshire Rider livery was bold and contemporary with out being overly so. It had more presence than the PTE livery and was a million times better than the First fading scheme and the current pale pastel which always reminds me of some wartime austerity livery. Although the use of local fleet names is a step in the right direction. But they need to make a bold statement with a strong livery.

Chris Hough

Rawtenstall Corporation1953Leyland Titan PD2/12Leyland H31/26R

Ideal Service (R Taylor & Sons)1959Leyland Titan PD2 (on older Tiger PS1 chassis)Roe L27/28R

Sheffield Corporation1947Leyland Titan PD2/1Leyland H30/26R

Yorkshire Woollen District1954Leyland Titan PD2/20MCW H34/29R

Sheffield Corporation1953Leyland PD2/12Weymann H32/26R

Potteries Motor Traction1957Leyland Titan PD2/20Willowbrook L27/28R

Sheffield Corporation1957Leyland PD2/20ECW H31/28R

Leeds City Transport1950Leyland Titan PD2/1Leyland H30/26R

Sheffield Corporation1954Leyland Titan PD2/12Weymann H32/26R

Stockport Corporation1951Leyland Titan PD2/1Leyland H30/26R

Rawtenstall Corporation
1953
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Leyland H31/26R

Ideal Service (R Taylor & Sons)
1959
Leyland Titan PD2 (on older Tiger PS1 chassis)
Roe L27/28R

Sheffield Corporation
1947
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

Yorkshire Woollen District
1954
Leyland Titan PD2/20
MCW H34/29R

Sheffield Corporation
1953
Leyland PD2/12
Weymann H32/26R

Potteries Motor Traction
1957
Leyland Titan PD2/20
Willowbrook L27/28R

Sheffield Corporation
1957
Leyland PD2/20
ECW H31/28R

Leeds City Transport
1950
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

Sheffield Corporation
1954
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Weymann H32/26R

Stockport Corporation
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R