Potteries Motor Traction 1960 Leyland Titan PD3/3 Willowbrook H39/34F
This was the last front engined bus delivered to PMT and was ordered by Baxters of Hanley who had sold out to PMT in December 1958. The Leyland PD/Willowbrook combination was clearly Baxters preferred design following on from the two Leyland PD2/20 supplied in 1955 and 1957. These two were of lowbridge layout (indeed as were all the double deckers taken over) and was also PMT’s preference due to the significant number of low railway bridges in the area. I wonder why then Baxters ordered this bus as a highbridge? The main batch of PD3s delivered to PMT had exposed radiators and this bus was one of only two delivered new with BMMO style concealed radiators. The other oddity was the vacuum braked specification which from discussions on this site about the stopping powers of PD3s would make this one even worse – but I can’t recall any driver complaints. It spent almost all its life operating from Biddulph Depot where I suppose the small number of drivers would be more likely to accept its idiosyncrasies. The bus is seen outside Stoke Depot in October 1969. It was withdrawn in 1971 and found its way inevitably to a Barnsley scrapyard.
I appreciate that ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ gives the seating as H39/34F, but 34 seems incredibly high for the lower deck capacity – the normal maximum for a 30′ front-engined forward-entrance double-decker being 31. Anyone any first-hand experience of this bus? Another thing I find surprising is the statement that it ‘inevitably’ found its way to a Barnsley scrapyard – high-capacity front-entrance double-deckers were almost unknown on the secondhand market in 1971, and I can’t help but think that there must have been a reason for this vehicle’s early withdrawal and scrapping.
David Call
21/11/12 – 14:47
I think you’re correct David, considering that PMT’s own PD3/4’s dated from 1957 and lasted a couple of years longer than this one. As you say, this would have made a sought after secondhand vehicle in 1971 and would perhaps have been snapped up by someone such as Berresfords of Cheddleton had it been sound. Berresfords did in fact acquire some ex-PMT PD3/4’s in 1973.
Chris Barker
21/11/12 – 17:30
After an accident too serious to warrant repair, perhaps? Then either directly to Barnsley or after spares recovery. I’d imagine there’s something in an issue of BUSES ILLUSTRATED of the time, if anyone has a copy.
Pete Davies
22/11/12 – 07:20
An even better source of information would be PSV Circle publication 3PD1 – PMT fleet history 1953-82
David Call
22/11/12 – 11:55
According to the book ‘A Century of North Staffordshire Buses’ this PD3 was ordered by Baxters as a lowbridge vehicle in 1958. Baxters were acquired by PMT in December 1958 and they were in time to change the specification to highbridge. Presumably it was originally intended to be rear entrance because I don’t think Willowbrook ever produced a 30ft lowbridge front entrance body, so perhaps the vehicle that we see was the best option for PMT, if they didn’t want another back loader. It appears to have been a normal withdrawal by PMT in December 1971 and after passing to Cowleys, was cut up for scrap. The ex-Becketts Northern Counties bodied Fleetline was withdrawn by PMT when only ten years old!
Stockport Corporation 1968 Leyland Titan PD3/14 East Lancs H38/32R
KJA 871F is a Leyland Titan PD3/14 with East Lancs H38/32R body, new to Stockport Corporation as their no. 71 in February 1968. It is preserved at The Manchester Museum of Transport in Boyle Street, Cheetham Hill. Greater Manchester. The museum is next to an operational bus garage. It is photographed on 24/7/10 returning to the museum on a shuttle service from Heaton Park, during a running day linking the museum and the tram system at Heaton Park. It is preserved in SELNEC livery.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
26/03/13 – 16:17
Stockport’s second attempt at something “new fangled”!! After years of almost dedicated conservatism Stockport dipped their toe into the second half of the twentieth century with this, the first of their first batch of 30 foot long double deckers. Apart from the length, nothing else changed. Rear open platform, East Lancs bodies with wind down windows and draught/drip strips. Still a magnificent vehicle and one of the few body styles to really look good in SELNEC orange. As a matter of interest, Stockport’s first attempt at modernity was the inclusion of translucent roof centres from 1964 onwards.
Phil Blinkhorn
26/03/13 – 17:17
…..but they did try tin fronts on the 1958 Crossley bodies – and finally went mad and had a batch of forward entrance PD3s…..
David Oldfield
27/03/13 – 06:55
The livery is an abomination compared with that which it bore before the advent of SELNEC and the blinds are totally unsuited to the apertures but as an example of the way that presentational standards dropped during the ’70’s it is perfect. Actually, Stockport’s first attempt at modernity was the trolleybuses of 1913 but perhaps that experience persuaded the Transport Dept to draw in it’s horns thereafter though they did order several TD4c’s as tramway replacements …. adventurous by their standards! Truth is that conservatism paid for Stockport. They got a standardized fleet of reliable vehicles and ran a profitable organization even though most of their vehicles were two man operated and they had the advantage of lower dwell times than omo fleets. Mind you, I should have hated to have to drive a PD3 for a living!
Orla Nutting
27/03/13 – 06:56
The SELNEC orange and white has had a lot of bad press amongst enthusiasts. I think this was largely because it replaced a lot of cherished and varied municipal liveries in the area. In itself I thought it was not unattractive and in some instances was an improvement on the previous municipal scheme. I quote as an example Rochdale’s dreadfully bland all over cream with a bit of blue which was adopted for spray painting in the early 1960’s. The majestic Weymann bodied Regent V’s looked much better to me in SELNEC livery. It was really designed for rear engined buses and did generally sit uneasily on front engined double deckers particularly where an exposed radiator was used. One thing in SELNEC’s favour was that it went for something new and did not favour any of the previous liveries of any of the constituent operators. West Midlands got a watered down Birmingham livery for example with no recognition of the other three operators involved. The same applied on Tyneside with South Shields not getting a look in.
Philip Halstead
27/03/13 – 12:17
Orla has a good point about the trolleybuses, especially as they were Lloyd Kohler system of current transfer – a total dead end in the trolleybus world. I’m not sure the tin fronts were an attempt at modernity. Leyland decided to standardise on the tin front and later St Helen’s fronts. For a period, there was a small premium for the traditional radiator. This coincided with Stockport’s tin front and St Helens front orders – so the adoption of these styles was typical of their monetary conservatism. Philip restates a long held misunderstanding regarding the design of SELNEC’s livery. It was definitely not designed for rear engined vehicles, or even the SELNEC “Standards”, the design of which had not been finalised at the time the livery was agreed. In 1970 I had a meeting with Tony Harrison in his office in Peter House. On the window ledge was a range of bus models, some Corgi, some Dinky, some hand built and a mix of single deckers and front and rear engined double deckers in an array of colour schemes. Whilst I was there for another reason to be revealed in an article in due course, I asked Tony what they were for. As I found out later when he was my boss, he wasn’t the most patient man but he told me they had been used when the livery was designed and he gave me chapter and verse on how the SELNEC Board were frustrated by what at the time was a negative public and media reaction to the scheme. He told me that they had decided to avoid any reference to any of the constituent Transport Departments’ colours and had looked to have designed a layout between the orange and warm white which would look balanced on any vehicle even when side advertising was applied. Stuart Brown in “Greater Manchester Buses” states correctly that the orange band above the lower deck windows was not to be more than 12 inches deep and the white on the between decks panel was to be fixed at 26 inches. This is where the misapprehension regarding the scheme being designed for rear engined vehicles arises. Whilst the “Standard” design hadn’t been finalised when the dimensions of the scheme were worked out, the dimensions were exactly those of the Northern Counties “Standard” but not of the Park Royal version, which had a deeper between decks band. At the time they had expected to keep rear entrance double deckers until the end of the 1970s, given the slow delivery rate from the Leyland group so needed a scheme to cover all types. The initial scheme the designers came up with was the Mancunian scheme with the white replaced by orange and the red by white. There was a model of a rear entrance bus in Tony’s office in that scheme and it look terrible, particularly around the rear nearside, though it looked a little better on a rear engined model. It was quickly rejected. Once real vehicles were painted two things became apparent. With certain types, keeping to the dimensions made some bodies look ungainly. The difference in depth of the orange below the upper deck window line due to window depth, to maintain the 26 inches between decks white dimension, gave the impression of random application when different bodies were seen together. Secondly, after a short period of time, different paint shops decided to vary the application to suit certain body styles. The Northern Division was the worst offender. Bury’s MCW bodied Atlanteans were painted almost correctly but almost identical Bolton versions had different paint dimensions and Bolton’s East Lancs bodied Atlanteans had different versions almost batch by batch. Bolton’s MCW front entrance PD3s had a unique version of the Orion scheme with virtually no orange under the windows making the between decks white very wide. What had been intended as a non-partisan, unifying scheme rapidly descended into something resembling a visual disaster.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/03/13 – 12:18
Although Stockport had a conservative vehicle-buying policy and never operated a rear-engined double-decker, a batch of Bristol VRs was being built for them at the time of SELNEC’s formation but a fire at the factory destroyed them all before delivery. This must have been the East Lancs factory in Blackburn. Someone will know more! There is a story that at least one of the chassis ended up in New Zealand.
Geoff Kerr
27/03/13 – 16:47
The fire was at the East Lancs Blackburn factory. The full story will appear on this Forum shortly. One VRT chassis was certainly saved in complete form and ended up in Woollagong Australia with a locally built body. It’s been stated that of the rest, those that could be salvaged were broken for spares. There is a story that Daw Bank would not have received the vehicles and that they would have been sent to Leigh where they would have been used to introduce OMO service, their lower height would have allowed them to be stabled in the old Corporation depot.
Phil Blinkhorn
28/03/13 – 06:49
Philip H mentions South Shields not getting a look in with the new T&W PTE livery, Sunderland were in the same boat. T&W decided that their livery would be based on the yellow of Newcastle Corporation, they went through several different permutations before they eventually settled for something not a million miles from where they started. The change would have been obvious to anyone living in South Shields or Sunderland, whereas most people in the Newcastle area would hardly be aware that the livery had changed.
Ronnie Hoye
28/03/13 – 06:49
In a recent edition of ‘Classic Bus’ there was a brave attempt by Mike Eyre based on Southampton buses to interpret what the VR’s would have looked like had they made it to Stockport including mock ‘J’ registrations in the JA series. Unfortunately I think the answer is ‘ugly’ especially with the treatment of the radiator grills and had they gone to Leigh I should not have wept.
Orla Nutting
28/03/13 – 07:57
Orla, I haven’t seen the Mike Eyre attempt but I can say two things with certainty based on seeing the first of the batch complete and painted. The vehicles would have looked very much like any other East Lancs rear engine design, similar to the last Bury Atlanteans and Fleetlines plus radiator grilles a la the delivery of VRs to Sheffield in 1972. As Mike’s attempt was based on Southampton, I assume you mean the livery layout. Of course the bus was painted in full SELNEC colours but no logo or legal lettering had been applied when I saw it so the veracity of the Leigh story cannot be confirmed. The front indicator layout was standard SELNEC with a number indicator in the usual SELNEC nearside position. My East Lancs’ contact promised to look out the correspondence with Stockport regarding livery for my subsequent visit. My contact said he seemed to remember they had been asked to quote for both the traditional Stockport layout and a revised layout based on that supplied on the Leopards. There seems to have been a division of opinion in the Stockport Transport Committee regarding the Leopard scheme. He did comment that the traditional layout cost a few pounds more per bus due to the extra masking and lining out. Of course my subsequent visit never materialised as the fire intervened, destroyed their records and lost me an order for SELNEC!
Phil Blinkhorn
29/03/13 – 06:50
The first attempts at modernising the look of the early rear engined double deckers fell broadly into two camps: the peak and angle treatment (Liverpool and Bolton) and the curves (e.g. most Alexanders, plus other builders using Alexander features). Unfortunately by 1970 the standard offering from East Lancs had a foot in each camp, with a peaked dome above a curved windscreen, which always jarred with me. This is the version which Mike Eyre used as the basis for his image. The curved windscreen was not obligatory, however – the Sheffield VRs didn’t have it, and neither did the Fleetlines ordered by Bury and delivered to SELNEC. As for the grill on the Sheffield VRs, the attempt to hide it rather than make a feature of it was not a clever idea, although I’m sure it must have saved a few quid!
Peter Williamson
29/03/13 – 08:54
Peter, this is the body style used on the “Stockport” VRs: www.sct61.org.uk/ Move the staircase forward to the standard front entrance position and add the grille and you have the bus as I saw it.
Phil Blinkhorn
29/03/13 – 08:55
The Sheffield East Lancs bodied VRs were withdrawn by the PTE as non-standard in the late seventies. They went on to have long lives with various NBC companies notably Crosville and Hastings & District. In late 1974 one was on loan as a demonstrator to West Yorkshire PTE. I saw it working the Bradford-Halifax service. New VRs did not figure on WYPTE orders but its successor Yorkshire Rider ran many after they absorbed West Yorkshire Road Car in 1990. As well as Sheffield Merseyside PTE also ran some East Lancs bodied VRs
Chris Hough
31/03/13 – 07:42
The Sheffield VR loaned to West Yorkshire PTE in 1975 was fleet number 275. It was a swap with WYPTE AN68 6003 which was fitted with Leyland G3 automatic gearbox control which SYPTE wished to try. Engineers from Dennis had a look at the drive train of the VR whilst it was at Halifax when they were designing the Dominator (ie how NOT to design a drive train!)
Seen in the dark blue and cream livery introduced for double-deckers in 1961, RA62 shows the final version of the CIE double-deck body, which is said to have been originally influenced by the prewar Leyland bodies supplied to Dublin United Tramways. The body design certainly had character, but was beginning to look dated by 1959, with its six-and-a-half bay construction, and Thomas Tilling-style three window arrangement at the front of the upper deck. Originally, the RAs were fitted with one-piece destination displays, but on overhaul the class later received the three aperture layout modelled here by RA62. The Titan PD3/2 chassis had semi-automatic transmission – and air brakes, whose fading characteristics have been so well described elsewhere on this website. Maybe the CIE versions had a holy statue in the cab as a back up system in case of emergency. Even then, the statue would probably have covered its eyes with its hands….
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
17/04/13 – 07:24
The “pseudo Birmingham” livery. Very nice!
Pete Davies
18/04/13 – 07:34
It has hitherto been my understanding that CIE double-deckers from this period had a position on the gear selector for fully automatic operation – or, at least, the ones used on Dublin City Services did, if that made a difference. Although the buses could theoretically be driven in semi or fully automatic mode, there was apparently a notice in the cab to the effect that drivers found selecting the gears manually (i.e. ‘semi’) would be dismissed. This information came from a driver I once knew who had worked for CIE in Dublin. Is it correct, do you know?
David Call
18/04/13 – 08:19
What an interesting question about the transmission! When I first moved to Southampton in 1970, I was working with a fellow who was in his last few months of work before retiring. He had a “mid 60’s” car which had the usual three pedals, but he hardly ever used the clutch, saying that his car had this same arrangement as David reports. He’d slip the car into that gear and move off. It was a Wolseley of some sort, if I remember correctly.
Pete Davies
18/04/13 – 16:51
I wonder what the reasoning for that gear selection instruction was….During my time on London Transport (1975-1978 at New Cross and Walworth) I only ever drove manually in spite of the RMs, RMLs and DMSs having the same gear selection arrangement. I found that I could drive the buses more smoothly in manual, and it was useful when driving up steep hills with a full load of passengers (like Shooters Hill) to be able to keep the bus in the correct gear until the gradient lessened.
Norman Long
18/04/13 – 17:41
Not quite the same, Norman, because the vehicles were then becoming quite elderly, but the instruction – when I drove for Reading Mainline – was always to drive in semi-automatic mode.
David Oldfield
19/04/13 – 06:49
Wolseley, Pete… Didn’t the big ADO minis & even the originals have a sort of semi automatic box where you could choose to change or just drive… or am I imagining that…. very clunky & jerky… with a crude straight gate and change…?
Joe
20/04/13 – 11:47
Joe, I think the car my colleague had was getting on for the size of something like the Austin Princess, but not quite as big, certainly not one of the Mini, 1100, 1800 family.
Pete Davies
20/04/13 – 17:11
The 1800 “Land Crab” was a deceptively spacious car, predecessor to the atrocious Princess: like the Princess it had a 6 cylinder option but the Princess had a standard automatic box. The Wolseley versions had Wolseley names like 18/85. Some of this generation did have a semi auto box, though, but I think only the Mini and 1100- so it could have been a Wolseley 1300? These cars seemed big! Googling seems to confirm.
Joe
20/04/13 – 17:13
A Wolseley 6 maybe?
Stephen Ford
20/04/13 – 18:18
Atrocious is the perfect description of the Princess – a company I worked for foisted one on me which I refused to use and was very happy to have exchanged for a second hand Cortina. BL gave the Princess a sex change and brought out the Ambassador, just as bad and equally loathed. The 1100 and 1300 were a breed apart from their larger outgrowths which were, the original 1800 apart, appalling.
Phil Blinkhorn
21/04/13 – 08:01
Sorry, Joe. I can’t have expressed it properly. The Princess I had in mind was not the item which I have seen described as a sewage farm on wheels. From looking at Wikipedia, my guess is that my colleague’s beast was the Westminster, with Wolseley badges.
Pete Davies
21/04/13 – 09:56
Consensus has it that the 1100/1300 and “land-crab” 1800/2200 were essentially good cars – if a little bit underfunded on R & D or quality. One disgraceful aspect of English manufacturers at that time – especially BMC and Rootes – was badge engineering, but they also recycled model names. The Austin Princess was an honourable name by a fine (traditional) manufacturer. [Again, don’t confuse the real Austin/Morris et al with their shadowy and shady British Leyland personas.] The BLMC Princess was not the same beast.
David Oldfield
21/04/13 – 11:12
In 1966 when I was 19 I was employed as a management trainee for a major UK company. One of our jobs was to “sub” for area reps if they were ill or on holiday. Our South London, Kent and Sussex rep had a stay in hospital and I was sent from Manchester to sub for him. I travelled in my upright Ford Popular which I expected to use for the duration of my stay and did for the first few weeks. When the rep came out of hospital he had a six week convalescence and during the last two weeks he came around with me instead of “being bored at home”. He couldn’t drive until signed off but gave me the keys to his car. Our reps could have a company car or use their own which was covered by the company insurance. For two weeks I had the great pleasure of driving a 4 litre Princess R around the South East. Vanden Plas body, Rolls Royce engine and BMC engineering at its best!
Phil Blinkhorn
22/04/13 – 07:53
A coach operator friend of mine in Sheffield also ran private hire taxis and wedding cars for a while. [He “did” one of my brothers’ wedding.] He had a RR Princess 4 litre. Apparently the engine was never used in a RR car – it was derived from an engine used by the Army in an armoured car! My driving instructor had the predecessor 3 litre Princess as his private transport.
David Oldfield
22/04/13 – 10:16
We had a complaint a year or two back from someone who thought we got off the point too much. Much as I have enjoyed this thread, and joined in, I think that we probably are naughty little boys and have strayed a little far off the appointed track. [I don’t recollect ever seeing a half-cab Austin Princess or one bearing an “O” licence.]
David Oldfield
22/04/13 – 10:16
The FB60 engine was a smaller version of the RR Military B. The Princess R was the only civilian vehicle mass produced by another manufacturer using a Rolls Royce engine.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/04/13 – 14:35
David, whilst I fully understand your point, one of the joys of this site is the way we can wander down memory lane, taking the odd side path which leads who knows where. Of course being well experienced in finding our way around we all eventually seem to get back on track!
Phil Blinkhorn
22/04/13 – 18:24
So, as we were saying, AP made a semi automatic box for small cars (Mini, 1100) in the style of these bus transmissions. Why, though, were CIE drivers (allegedly) fired for using it? It seemed to be the norm on rear engined buses in those days. I would have thought the power available on a bus of this age would demand some intervention… any drivers know?
Joe
23/04/13 – 07:57
Didn’t Northern Scottish use an Austin Princess licensed as a PSV on an airport service? I think it was an E-suffix registered car, so would have been new in 1967. Of course it wasn’t a half-cab, and nor was it in Northern Scottish yellow/cream livery – but standard black I think. Memory says it was even numbered “NX1”. So if my memories are correct, there is a link between the meanderings on this topic!
Michael Hampton
23/04/13 – 07:58
Interesting comments relating to fully-automatic ‘boxes with semi-automatic over-ride. It’s fascinating how operators seem to have had such differing views on how they should be used. From observances riding on LT Routemasters over the years, their drivers in the main seemed to prefer controlling the gear selection themselves. On the few occasions where the transmission had been seen to be left to its own devices, the progress seemed more stately. One thing still intrigues me though. Drivers of semi-automatic vehicles were usually instructed to pause in neutral when changing up, in order to let the engine revs drop and effect a smooth change. This also prolonged gearbox brakeband life. Semi-auto gearchanges carried out under power were frowned upon by engineering staff, yet the Routemaster, with a broadly similar transmission, actually operated like this in fully-automatic mode. Can anybody work it out? Meandering back off piste, didn’t the Austin Champ (a would-be challenger to the Land Rover) also have a Rolls-Royce engine? Going a little further off piste, Wolseley versions of the Austin Westminster were the 6/99 and later 6/110. They sported that delightful Wolseley feature – the illuminated radiator badge. A lovely touch on a decidedly handsome car. Today, no doubt this would be ‘cool’. We simply called it class.
Brendan Smith
23/04/13 – 07:58
Phil. My friends will also tell you of my ability to stir it!
David Oldfield
23/04/13 – 13:56
The Austin Champ was designed to reduce UK military reliance on US built Jeeps but it was eclipsed by the Land Rover. Initial production models had Rolls Royce built engines but most vehicles had a modified version built by BMC under licence. The relatively few vehicles built for the civilian market had the licenced built engine as an option but the majority had an all BMC engine.
David, I bet my stirring spoon is bigger than yours.
LFR 528F is one of a batch of 40 Titan PD3A/1 vehicles with MCW H71R bodywork, delivered to Blackpool Corporation in 1967 and 1968. Some of the later 1968 vehicles had the G suffix to their registrations. 528 is seen in the old almost-overall cream livery at Fleetwood on 15 September 1975, while on the 14 between Fleetwood and Talbot Road Bus Station. I sampled the current version of this service in May 2013, and it’s a lot quicker to use the tram from the stop by the Knott End Ferry beyond the bus to North Pier!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
04/07/13 – 06:05
I know it’s an Orion – but it’s a handsome one. Light colours flatter it.
David Oldfield
04/07/13 – 06:05
Blackpool being Blackpool, how long did they last? Still running?!
Joe
04/07/13 – 08:32
Joe, No! Sadly it’s only some of the trams of similar and older vintage that are still in service, not the buses.
Pete Davies
04/07/13 – 12:21
Nice photo: the bus fleet inevitably gets overshadowed by the tram fleet. I agree that the Orion looked better in lighter colours. That open radiator flap must have worsened fuel consumption!
Chris Hebbron
05/07/13 – 11:44
I beg to differ about there being no Blackpool PD3’s still active. 529 is still very much active, mostly doing private hires for Classic Bus North West. But it did operate the full shift on service 22 on the 25th of May this year, this being the day that also saw RM1568 and 1947 built Lytham 19 doing a planned Heritage Running Day on that service.
Mr Anon
06/07/13 – 06:25
What a terrible livery that was. Indeed, it would be wrong to use the word livery. Just dump a bus into a tank of cream paint and dab a bit of green on the mudguards. Thank goodness more green (and more sanity) returned to this fleet after a few years.
Petras409
06/07/13 – 08:32
Mr Anon, still active? Yes, but not in normal every day service with the original operator. I know of several that are preserved in different places. Blackpool’s bus life has generally been around 12 years.
Pete Davies
07/07/13 – 07:39
Not strictly true the age profile. Most of the Atlanteans were between 20 and 25 years old when withdrawn, the ex WYPTE Olympians were just about 30 years old, and the F*** UFR Olympians were just about 20 years old on retirement. The 12 year life has long since passed into oblivion.
Mr Anon
18/11/13 – 05:17
For the record, Blackpool Transport’s last few PD3s were retired from regular passenger service exactly 25 years ago this month.
SR
20/07/14 – 15:10
Here is another Blackpool PD3, consecutive registration No to the one shown above, this was taken June 15th this year at Ribble Steam Railway, Father’s Day, Vintage Vehicle Show.
This picture was taken sometime in the early seventies at what is now to me an unknown location in Southend, it shows No 338 CJN438C one of a batch of twelve Leyland PD3/6s with Massey H38/32R bodywork delivered in April 1965 after Massey had changed to a severe upright front profile in stark contrast to it’s very curvaceous shape although personally I liked the upright look, so I imagine my view of most modern vehicles is quite obvious but then like most people who use the site live in the past like me.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
07/07/14 – 07:59
I agree, Dave, that the upright front end looks better than those exaggeratedly backswept Massey front profiles of earlier days. Wonderful contrast in seating capacity (70 and 34) between this Southend Titan and the magnificent Thornycroft posted by Pete Davies, yet the overall lengths differ by only five feet or so. Each, in its way, a very handsome bus.
Ian T
07/07/14 – 08:00
I had just been riding on ex-Ramsbottom no 8, an East Lancs bodied PD3/4, at Peterborough Bus Rally when I got home and opened up this superb shot. The sounds of the O.600 engine and ‘solid’ gearchanges still ringing in my ears. Sheer bliss! I can’t make my mind up whether I preferred the curvy Massey front or this upright version but whichever front they had Massey bodies always looked so solid and well built. The Southend livery is a classic too, a lovely shade of blue. Thanks for the post it has really made my day.
Philip Halstead
07/07/14 – 08:02
I don’t know a lot about this vehicle (CJN 435C) only that my boss borrowed it for me for driver training at Midland Red North it was in beautiful condition and must be a preserved vehicle. Around about 1994.
Michael Crofts
07/07/14 – 10:17
This batch of superb vehicles were delivered during the time when I was regularly on Leeds – Southend Airport tour feeders for Wallace Arnold. I had already fallen in love with “The County Borough” and the Corporation’s glorious and fascinating fleet, but these buses really were the bees’ knees. Avoiding that possibly exclusive word “favourite” I’m sure that these must be amongst the most handsome and well proportioned “back loaders” of all time.
Chris Youhill
07/07/14 – 15:50
I think there is scope for confusion in respect of what is meant by a ‘curvy’ Massey body. In the photograph linked to below, the right-hand vehicle has one of the the most curvy Massey bodies produced, these were current late 1940s to mid-1950s. The vehicle on the left has a body which isn’t quite so curvy, this style was current mid-1950s to mid-1960s – but it’s still more curvy than the upright style shown above, produced in the very few years from the mid-1960s until the end of Massey production. These two additional buses are also from Southend, one of Massey’s most regular customers. www.sct61.org.uk/ss307b
David Call
07/07/14 – 15:51
I think that the curvy Masseys look dreadful, but I agree with everyone else that these “upright” versions look rather special.
David Oldfield
08/07/14 – 07:30
Massey seemed to increase the ‘curved back’ angle for lowbridge bodies more than they did on highbridge versions. The Daimler in the photo linked above is a good example. I don’t recall any lowbridge versions being built with the ‘upright’ front but stand to be corrected. By the time the upright design was introduced lowbridge (ie sunken gangway type) buses were pretty rare.
Philip Halstead
08/07/14 – 07:30
Thanks for your thoughts in respect of this and my posting of the Portsmouth Thornycroft, Ian. I was more familiar with the Massey double deckers of Morecambe & Heysham than the more upright version seen here. I have a (bought) slide of an A1 Service Fleetline with a Massey body of the same era, “B” suffix. It seems to me to be more reminiscent of the MCW offering. At least we should be thankful it isn’t like the Park Royal which Southampton had on PD2, PD2A and Regent V chassis!
Pete Davies
08/07/14 – 07:31
David O, I have to totally agree with your comments about the Massey bodies. This upright style I would probably rate as my joint 3rd favourite style of half-cab double decker. As a patriotic Yorkshireman 1st has to be the early 1950’s Roe bodies,2nd the ECW on Bristol K chassis & joint 3RD the postwar Leyland
Keith Clark
08/07/14 – 07:32
These buses had red steering wheels to denote that they were highbridge and therefore banned from certain routes.
Philip Carlton
08/07/14 – 07:32
I enjoyed the ‘spot the difference’ contest between these two photos of the upright Massey bodies – I much prefer these to the dated curvy style, even though I used one of the latter as my wedding transport. The difference is, of course the London Transport stencil holders, which remained on this batch of buses after their hire to Croydon Garage to work route 190 Thornton Heath – Old Coulsdon in 1975. I think that Southend felt that they were some sort of badge of honour and the stencil holders remained on these buses, i think, to the end of their days, despite serving no purpose back home.
Petras409
08/07/14 – 07:33
The intermediate style of post-war Massey bodywork (as displayed by Southend 307 in the above linked picture) was available to the end of Massey production, concurrent with the more upright style. Very few operators took the upright style – Chester, Wigan, and Birkenhead spring immediately to mind as users, in addition to Southend.
David Call
08/07/14 – 08:00
The link given by David Call does not compare like with like. Both vehicles depicted are the lowbridge type, which had a more exaggerated curvature to the frontal profiles than the corresponding highbridge versions. Alan Murray-Rust’s OBP gallery ‘Massey Bodies with Independents’ includes examples of the later highbridge design before the introduction of its upright successor. Personally, I prefer the older style – the upright type has an air of ungainliness that is absent from the classic East Lancs design that Southend turned to for its last PD3s. Massey were very late entering the rear engined bodywork market – the first examples of the firm’s new design entered service with Maidstone in January 1967 – but the initial concept must have been drafted much earlier. I think that the upright design for front engined chassis was conceived to allow a degree of commonality of components with the rear engined body. These Southend PD3s travelled far beyond the borough boundary. From September 1975 they appeared from Croydon Garage on London Transport service 190 (originally a Croydon Corporation tram route as far as Purley) between Thornton Heath High Street and Old Coulsdon. This was at a time of market domination by Leyland, when the entire bus industry was suffering late deliveries of new vehicles and severe shortages of spare parts. LT hired ten PD3s on a rotational basis from Southend, the vehicles being returned to their owner for maintenance. The drivers ‘lucky’ enough to be trained to drive the clutch/synchromesh gearbox, ‘modestly’ braked Titans must have found themselves in another world entirely from the fully automatic, hydraulically braked Routemasters. I have to say that the PD3 design certainly had the heaviest controls of all the buses I have ever driven.
The pictures show Massey bodied CJN 434C and East Lancs MHJ 347F at South Croydon en route to Old Coulsdon. When LT finished with these buses they passed on to London Country, who based them at Harlow Garage. (Some of the drivers’ comments that I heard cannot be repeated on a family site like OBP.) It is a tribute to the indestructability of the PD3 that it survived some pretty unsympathetic treatment in unfamiliar hands. London Country finally ended the hire arrangement at the end of January 1977. One aspect of this tale that intrigues me is how Southend (and Maidstone as well – between six and nine Atlanteans were on loan to Chelsham Garage in 1977)) should have so many buses surplus to requirements that it could hire them out to others.
Roger Cox
08/07/14 – 11:10
Petras 409 – I’ve often, over the years, reflected wryly on the displeasure that the London Transport “pre-selector” chaps will have expressed when driving the excellent PD3s. Similarly just after the War when borrowed Bristol Ks and LT’s own new Leyland PD1s appeared – ah, I’m going into happy memories now of the glorious PD1s – Yorkshire ex Bristol and ex Lancashire examples which gave me so much pleasure both privately and in my career.
Chris Youhill
08/07/14 – 11:11
A friend of mine who was an operator of high end coaches had a saying: I want professional drivers, not steering wheel attendants. This portrays the eternal problems. Leylands, such as these, were definitely engineers buses – solidly built with reliable operation in mind. They were not “drivers” buses – heavy and ponderous with suspect brakes. [Although an enthusiast/enthusiastic driver may take a pride in taming the beast and driving it well.] This could be said of all Leylands up to about 1970 (when power steering was becoming universal, along with better braking systems). On the other hand, AECs were drivers buses – in the words of another operator friend, thoroughbreds. Sadly, thoroughbreds can be temperamental and the wet liner 470s and 590s let the side down in the reliability stakes – and did quite a lot to tarnish the good reputation of AEC. Subsequent engines (505, 691 and 760) regained the old standards, but too late, as many had abandoned ship by then.
David Oldfield
09/07/14 – 07:59
Chris Y is so right when he talks about London Transport’s drivers being wedded to their pre-selective vehicles! Among other cases were the eight brand-new all-Leyland PD1 STD class allocated to Potter’s Bar Garage in late 1946. They replaced some 1929 open-staircase LT’s but, within the month, they had been swapped with Loughton Garage’s almost-as-old LT’s!
Chris Hebbron
09/07/14 – 07:59
Back to the Masseys. I prefer what one commentator was known to call an honest box (shape). I think there is far more class in a Setra or Van Hool than in fussy, curvy coaches just as I am an admirer of the Mancunian, the standard Park-Roe body (1968-1981) and the subsequent ECW/Roe body on the Olympian. All outside our time frame here, but examples of simple classic design.
David Oldfield
09/07/14 – 07:59
In my own defence perhaps I could make the point that I was trying to show that there were various degrees of ‘curvy’ Massey bodies. The fully sweptback style I think only featured on lowbridge bodies, highbridge of the period having much the same sort of profile as the mid-1950s to late-1960s style. In respect of the latter, I’ve never been conscious of any great difference in the rake between highbridge and lowbridge models.
David Call
09/07/14 – 07:59
I wonder if being a “drivers bus” equates to “being popular with drivers” though. Certainly I read in one of the many articles/books by that recent great loss to the transport world, Geoffrey Hilditch, (not sure which one though) that at Halifax it was custom to keep a Regent V conspicuously parked in the depot doorway, as a warning to any crew asking for a changeover, presumably from a PD2 or PD3, that that would be the vehicle they would be given as a replacement. Or was it just as in so many fleets, the minority vehicle type tends to be less popular? I would imagine noise levels in the cab of any synchromesh Regent V or Renown would be pretty high which some drivers probably did not appreciate.
Michael Keeley
12/07/14 – 06:44
The practice of leaving an even more unpopular replacement vehicle in a conspicuous place was not restricted to Halifax. I’m sure I’ve read of the practice elsewhere and certain that Charles Baroth used the same deterrent at Salford, even on the trams.
Orla Nutting
12/07/14 – 09:11
Having undesirable vehicles available for changeovers was a practice which was widespread. Towards the end of my stay with Burnley & Pendle it was accepted that if your vehicle needed to be changed, the replacement would be a Bristol RE, which was not only the oldest type in the fleet, but compared poorly with the contemporary standard. Didn’t this practice deter drivers from reporting bona fide defects?
David Call
14/07/14 – 07:50
It’s good to see the Massey and East Lancs versions together like that. I agree that the East Lancs is more elegant, but it’s also more bland; the Massey has more character. For some strange reason they put me in mind of the difference between dark chocolate and milk chocolate. I prefer dark – I prefer the Massey.
Peter Williamson
14/07/14 – 09:49
Compare the Massey body to that of Manchester’s 3520 in the current thread about Manchester’s 3629. In 1958 Manchester wanted more upper deck space and had Burlingham straighten and tone down their somewhat over curvy design and came up with this elegant design – which looked far better on the Leyland chassis than the Daimler version. Massey seemingly followed suit.
Phil Blinkhorn
02/01/15 – 09:16
The top picture of 338 I believe was taken in London Road Southend, just by Victoria Circus. The bus is heading west (it is a 3A to Canvey Island). Buses don’t use that part of the road any more since the road behind this bus has now been pedestrianised and a bypass (Queensway) was built just to the north.
Brinic
16/01/15 – 08:28
Photo of CJN 436C at Castle point Open Day, also two photos of the same vehicle as a playbus
Brian Pask
18/10/15 – 07:45
I was delighted to see the photograph of Southend 335 (CJN 435C) at Midland Red North’s Cannock Depot. My introduction to the Massey Highbridge PD3s was when one picked me up on my way to school when first introduced in 1965 and made an impression with that smell of ‘newness’. Nineteen years later a friend encouraged me to help at the Castle Point Transport Museum on Canvey Island and I found myself helping to extract a stripped vehicle from the rear of the building ready for the collection by the scrap merchant. Once it had been moved an old friend was revealed – 335 – and I asked what was happening to the ‘Old Lady’ sadly down on her luck. The answer was blunt – she would be leaving for the scrap yard once the other vehicle had left. When I mentioned my memories of 335 and her sisters the owner offered to sell at scrap value if I was interested – and in a moment of madness I agreed. Within a month 335 was removed from the rear of the building and tucked-up inside the Museum. Progress was slow and the engine was found to have a defective block. In the July of 1986 my dad, who had been helping me, suddenly died and my wife and I decided 335 would be rebuilt in memory of dad. The rebuild was extensive with the bodywork undertaken by Roy Hawkes – including new rear platform, staircase, stress and external panels. At that time was working part-time for Southend Transport and had got to know Chris Hilditch who was Chief Engineer as well as other senior staff. With the bodywork renewed I offered the mechanical overhaul, repaint and seat re-trimming to Southend Transport. I remember the day she was towed from Canvey to Tickfield Works in plain aluminium finish and the greeting the ‘Old Lady’ was given on her arrival. Chris made me a promise and he kept it. On the first anniversary of dad’s death, with the engine from a Portsmouth PD2 installed, 335 made her first test run. At the following Canvey Open Day she worked on the Shuttle Service crewed by Southend Transport Drivers. Chris moved to Midland Red North and 335 fitted the bill to retrain drivers with automatic licences to drive stick motors. She did two periods of duty at MRN but also had a spell with Southend when her sister, by then on loan as a trainer, was in the works. After regaining her PSV status she worked for the late Brian Smith of S & M Coaches on school contracts until rear-platform vehicles were phased-out. She also spent time at Mangapps Railway Museum at Burnham-on-Crouch. Unfortunately the on-set of arthritis meant it was becoming difficult to drive her and a friend, Carl Ireland, stored her for me where she caught the eye of a French gentleman. After a fresh repaint she came south for the Canvey Open Day allowing me a last opportunity to drive her before crossing the Channel where she was well looked after. Eventually she returned and was gutted to be a Playbus in the Southend area. After that I quit ‘bus preservation but I have been told she is back in preservation and would be delighted to hear how she has fared. I cannot recall the year I sold her but it must have been around 1989.
Frank Spence
28/10/15 – 07:04
Many thanks to Frank for having preserved this bus and to the snap a photo of old 335, it really was a magnificent effort to get her back to better than new standard about 1987 and I was to leave Southend in 1988 to join MRN, I saw this vehicle as above in the yard of Cannock and recognised it immediately, I had a bit of sleeplessness as I was really worried about how much it cost Frank to have the bus rebuilt at professional fees even doing the best I could, I do hope the vehicle survives and what a waste to turn it into a playbus the interior was done in original style by Seph our trimmer in original new moquette. Good luck I hope it survives I too would be pleased to here how it goes on.
Chris Hilditch
04/05/16 – 06:23
I was delighted to see Chris Hilditch’s response to my notes on Southend Transport 335. He was very supportive of my efforts to return the Old Lady to her former glory and that enthusiasm extended to everyone in Tickfield Works. I was fortunate to be on Southend Transport’s part time driver panel so I was able to come and go at the Works whenever I wanted to monitor the progress and discuss directly with the staff any issues. Even the spiders in the deepest recesses of the stores were disturbed as odd PD3 parts were discovered. When 335 was stripped to become a playbus the seats survived and found their way into her sister, Lulu, as she was returned to her former glory by new owners.
Frank Spence
28/02/17 – 06:11
The Top picture is in London Road, Southend virtually opposite what was at the Time ENOC’s Southend Depot. Behind the bus is Southend Victoria Circus & an area nicknamed ”Cobweb Corner” in Tram & Trolleybus days due to the high amount of Overhead wires. I remember Chris Hilditch wayback when I was at ST in 1986 as a 18 year old handyman-31 years later I part-run a Bus & Coach company in Rochford with 3 Routemasters.
James Sadd
13/08/17 – 07:41
Glad I stumbled on this site! CJN 436C (Lulu2 above) was sited in the grounds of Darlinghurst School for a while and somewhere along the way was bought by my father, Don Hebden who was Duty Crew at London Road. 436 arrived in Tickfield and stood there for a number of years. Eventually it was sold to someone in the Worthing area, I believe. My dad reported that with a bit of attention, it started up and ran OK and was then driven to Worthing under its own steam! I actually heard it running as my dad’s mobile phone made a “pocket call” to mine part way through proceedings! I have a photocopy of the log book somewhere which I found when clearing out his paperwork after he died. Greetings to Chris Hilditch, too – fellow piper in SSPB!
Mike Hebden
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
02/11/18 – 07:34
I came across this publicity shot of Southend 335 (copyright unknown), which now resides at PenYBanc Farm, not too far away from where I now live in West Wales. It has been converted to an upmarket camper van, although it is stationary on site. From previous comments, it seemed that 335 was well on the way to being preserved in running condition. Anybody know what happened? I will have a look at the bus at some time and get some more photos.
Bedwas & Machen Urban District Council 1968 Leyland Titan PD3/4 Massey L35/33RD
PAX 466F was new to Bedwas & Machen in June 1968 and carries a Massey lowbridge body L35/33RD. She was one of the runners at Bus & Coach Wales in September 2014 carrying some healthy loads on some difficult terrain. The event is held in Merthyr Tydfil.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
25/05/15 – 07:20
Another fine contribution from Les. I attach a view of this bus in Milton Keynes Metro livery, at Duxford, for the SHOWBUS event on 24 September 2000. I accept that people have different ideas of what looks good as a bus livery, but the Milton Keynes one doesn’t fall into that category in my estimation!
Pete Davies
25/05/15 – 17:00
I think a lot of people would agree with you, Pete. The original livery for this poor bus was simple and dignified.
David Wragg
25/05/15 – 17:00
At the risk of stirring the wrath of the good burgers of Milton Keynes, I agree with Pete and therefore think the livery is entirely appropriate for the city of a thousand traffic roundabouts!
This Titan PD3/4 in the Southdown fleet is seen in somewhat strange surroundings. She is adjacent to a public park outside Dock Gate 4 in Southampton on 23 August 1982 while on hire to Southampton City Transport on park and ride duty in connection with the Tall Ships Races. Portsmouth and Thamesdown loaned buses for the event – I saw some of the Portsmouths but none of the Thamesdowns. My apologies to those of our number who cannot abide the NBC green . . . She has Southdown’s normal Northern Counties body of (in this case) FCO69F layout. She dates from 1964.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
29/06/15 – 06:55
Like many, I prefer buses with half cabs, but I quite liked the Southdown ‘Queen Mary’ Titans in their original form and I think that this one may have curved windows at the front which really didn’t go with the overall design. I also hated National green.
David Wragg
29/06/15 – 10:24
Thank you, David. I, for one, have never quite understood how a full front could possibly help with cooling the engine (and/or the cab!) Now, it could be achieved quite easily with a half cab. Still, design is what matters, rather than fitness for purpose. There are schools in Southampton which won design awards, but the roofs leak like sieves!
Pete Davies
30/06/15 – 06:43
At least this NBC Green is fresh, with a gloss. Probably done specially for the occasion! Three weeks hence and it would be faded and matt finish! Of course, I exaggerate, but only slightly! Nice to see a three-quarter rear view of a Queen Mary.
Chris Hebbron
30/06/15 – 09:53
This is an interesting question Pete. Forward control “Queen Mary” lorries became almost universal in this country but I suppose the driver tended to be over rather than alongside the engine. Nevertheless smaller goods vehicles had the engine in the cab. Was it also a question of designing buses for looks- with poor insulation and airflows? On the other hand, half-cabs gave better access and better visibility, especially on the kerbside- allowing for some tin-fronts, but at the cost of looks and municipal pride. Then we got Wulfrunians, Ailsas and a whole lot of rear engines… problem solved?
Joe
30/06/15 – 09:55
Thank you, Chris. There were two of these in overall advertising livery, “Maritime Britain” which are too dreadful for publication, as well as some of the early ‘flat front’ VR members of the fleet. I have one in mind for a future offer.
Pete Davies
01/07/15 – 06:29
There are hundreds of photos of the iconic Southdown Northern Counties/Leyland Titan PD3/4 showing the front near quarter but not so many of the rear end. At first glance I wasn’t sure if I was looking at a Bristol VR top half or a Bristol FLF bottom half. I was never a fan of the NBC livery or the fact that so many interesting liveries were lost, if only we all had digital cameras in those days.
Ron Mesure
02/07/15 – 05:56
There’s an old saying -“An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance”. By the early 1960s in the psv world, the ‘modern look’ was enshrined in the likes of the Atlantean, Fleetline and Wulfrunian, none of which remotely rivalled the traditional front engined chassis in terms of reliability or cost effectiveness. Southdown, amongst others, sought to achieve the best of both worlds by fitting full fronted bodywork to front engined machinery, progressively pursuing this policy to the bitter end with curved glass and panoramic windows. The public, it was thought, would be taken in by appearances. It was the adoption of one person operation for double deckers that finally knocked this philosophy on the head. I agree that the best of the Southdown PD3 “Queen Marys” (there is a school of thought that vociferously refutes this nickname, but it was widely used nonetheless) were the original flat screen versions. The desperate later efforts with curvy glass and panoramic side windows looked like creatures from the Heath Robinson Design Bureau to my eye, akin to fitting wide tyres, twin headlamps, bonnet airscoops and a rear spoiler to a Reliant Robin.
Roger Cox
02/07/15 – 08:35
Well said, Mr Cox!!!
Pete Davies
03/07/15 – 06:36
…not to mention go-faster stripes! Patrick Hutber, a Sunday Telegraph journalist/economist coined the saying that “Improvement means deterioration” which equally applies to the sort of problems which arose with changes from front to rear engine’d buses you mention, Roger. The slightly later Ailsa, while not perfect, trod a good path of compromise in both engineering and OMO terms and was quite popular, if not the runaway success it arguably merited, being everything the Wulfrunian was not!
Caerphilly Urban District Council 1965 Leyland Titan PD3/4 Massey L35/33RD
Here we have another Urban District Council vehicle this time it is a Massey lowbridge-bodied Leyland Titan PD3/4 which was new to Caerphilly Urban District Council in October 1965 as fleet number 32. With chassis number L42817 and body number 5911 this bus looks in fine fettle in this photograph, taken at the Bus & Coach Wales event in September 2014.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
21/01/16 – 06:49
What a smart looking bus. Very unusual to have hopper windows in the saloons of a bus of that age – wonder if they are a later fitment? Must be ‘pretty adjacent’ to the nearside top deck passengers heads – wonder if an additional notice is required ‘Please mind your head on the windows when leaving your seat’!!
Ian Wild
21/01/16 – 06:49
Nice view, Les, and thanks for posting.
Pete Davies
21/01/16 – 07:33
Caerphilly had hopper vents on all their later PD2s and PD3s as well as their Massey-bodied Leopards. They seem to have had some popularity in South Wales as Pontypridd also specified them on their last two Guy Arabs and first few Regent Vs as well as some Reliances at the same time. Oddly, they went back to sliders for the last Regent Vs.
David Beilby
21/01/16 – 15:37
Something curiously old fashioned about it for its age. Probably the trad Massey body and classic radiator- and the blind masks and handle… but how come the OMO-ish cab side windows? Smart job, though.
Joe
22/01/16 – 06:14
Very handsome bus, but what really is old-fashioned about it is that as late as 1965 someone thought it worth ordering a traditional lowbridge bus with the awful offside sunken gangway on the upper deck.
David Wragg
22/01/16 – 06:15
Joe – you’ve lost me there about “OMOish cab side windows ?? The extended destination handles were not unknown amongst certain operators and they were an extremely good idea – any small conductor/driver, or any height for that matter, could have a nasty accident climbing up a slippery metal foothold to change the destination in the more usual arrangement. As you say curiously old fashioned – but in my view delightfully traditional and oh how I wish they were rolling off the production lines in their hundreds today !!
Chris Youhill
22/01/16 – 16:10
Talking of small Conductors and changing destination blinds, here is an Oldham Corporation Passenger Transport Department ‘GUARD’ doing just that with the help of the extended winding handles, on Roe (H37/28R) bodied Leyland PD2/30, PBU 950 (Fleet No.450). New in October 1958, it passed to SELNEC PTE in November 1969, and was given Fleet No.5350, a seen here. It was the only bus to carry the SELNEC fleet number on the Crimson Lake livery. It was withdrawn in July 1971, and went to Barnsley for scrap.
Stephen Howarth
22/01/16 – 17:04
West Riding were partial to long winding gear as were Salford. In Salford it was specifically to stop crews clambering up the bus front. Of course West Riding went one further so to speak by fitting exterior winding gear to their Wulfrunians!
Chris Hough
23/01/16 – 06:45
Chris Y…. OMOish because the drivers engine side window appears to be in two pieces but not angled enough for fares… Or was there an orderly queue up, the bus?! Any ideas anywhere… And Chris….were those or the Regent V at Ledgards the only survivors into West Yorkshire?
Joe
23/01/16 – 06:46
David W – Purely by chance, I came across an item about the last lowbridge-bodied bus built – in 1968 and preserved. Coincidentally it was also a PD3 with Massey body! It was bought by Bedwas & Machen UDC, who worked closely with Caerphilly and the two probably influenced each other. See: //historypoints.org/index.
Chris Hebbron
23/01/16 – 06:47
I don’t think the hopper vents would have been a problem for passengers leaving, since it was impossible to stand up in any case. The only way out was to slide along the seat – after asking anyone else who was on it to unload themselves into the gangway first. There really was no excuse for this in 1965. I know these buses were wonderful for enthusiasts, but passengers and conductors were more important.
Peter Williamson
23/01/16 – 12:43
No Joe – you can definitely forget any OMO connotation on connection with the cab window. I’m pretty certain that the only front engined buses, and forward entrance ones at that, were some adapted by various operators for the purpose by angling the front bulkhead window partly over the bonnet. It was the shabbiest practice ever and involved the driver twisting round excessively to serve boarding passengers on the steps as they entered. Much unjustified scoffing is aimed at “Health and Safety” but this would be a prime example of where this “OMO” practice should have been stamped on from the very start !! Now, the West Yorkshire/Ledgard takeover – all the Ledgard vehicles were taken over by West Yorkshire, but only fourteen were used by them. These were the ten AEC Regent Vs (six new to Ledgard and four ex South Wales) which became DAW 1 – 10, and the two Daimler CVG6s which became DGW 11/12. This apparent “series” of 1 – 12 was not a series but a coincidence as West Yorkshire already DGW 1 – 10 of their own, those being Bristol KSW6Gs. Also used by West Yorkshire were Ledgard’s two Thames/Duple coaches which became CF1/2.
Chris Youhill
25/01/16 – 06:31
Thank you, Chris Hebbron. I hadn’t realised that lowbridge bodies were produced as late as that. My family left for Malta for three years in 1956, by which time Hants & Dorset Bristol LD series Lodekkas could be seen in Gosport. Of course, the change over took some time, and returning in 1959 there were still lowbridge Bristol Ks running around Gosport and Fareham, as well as a couple of highbridge convertibles that had originally been panted in reversed out livery and which, with the upstairs roof on, rattled like mad.
David Wragg
26/01/16 – 06:46
The specifying of lowbridge bodywork as late as 1965 and even afterwards indicates organisations in which the purchasing decisions were dominated by the engineering department. Better to have a simple, proven traditional chassis like the PD3 rather than one of those troublesome rear engined things. As far as the passengers were concerned, they were used to the old lowbridge type and didn’t know any better. The fundamental reason for running buses – that of encouraging people to travel by offering an attractive mode of transport – didn’t enter the equation. The Lodekka was still available right up to 1968, but that didn’t have a rear entrance, nor could it have a Massey body. This was surely a case of “It’s always been done; why change?”.
Roger Cox
29/01/16 – 07:09
Does anyone know why, after decades of running lowbridge dds, Caerphilly suddenly switched to highbridge for their last two PD2s (F-reg) and subsequent Atlanteans?
David Call
30/01/16 – 06:10
I think the main reason that Caerphilly changed was the removal of a low railway bridge at Maes-y-Cymmer, between Ystrad Mynach and Pontllanfraith. This was on two routes – the famous 36 from Cardiff to Tredegar and also the former Commercial Motor Service route from Pontypridd to Blackwood. As a consequence it had an impact on a lot of fleets as Cardiff, Caerphilly and West Mon worked the 36 whilst the other service involved Caerphilly, Pontypridd and West Mon. Pontypridd also had a works journey to Pontllanfraith and for this reason Pontypridd had two lowbridge K6Gs in an otherwise highbridge fleet. Cardiff’s contribution was lowbridge Crossleys followed by Bridgemasters. I think there was another low-ish bridge which still constrained Cardiff a little and only certain batches of vehicles appeared on the 36 even when the Maes-y-Cymmer bridge was removed.
David Beilby
25/10/16 – 14:22
Ramsbottoms last two PD3s, 10 and 11, were fitted for OMO by having an angled shelf towards the driver but when they were transferred to Bury after the Selnec takeover, the crews there would not entertain it at all.
BUF 279C fleet number 279 is nearest the camera in this view taken at Dunsfold on 10 April 2011. Her close cousin, 972 CUF fleet number 972, is alongside. Both are Leyland titan PD3/4 vehicles with Northern Counties FH69F bodies. 972 was new in 1964 and 279 is from 1965. The third member of the group is UUF 116J fleet number 516, a Bristol VR/ECW combination. The vehicle is obviously too new for these pages, but it does show what a timeless livery the Southdown one was – dignified on any outline and far better than certain random applications of paint seen on too many buses these days.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
13/04/16 – 06:04
The “dignified colour scheme” seems to have had quite an evolution. When venturing darn sarth many years ago, the scheme that impressed and still does is that olivey green which can be seen on the ill-starred 1952 PD2 “coach” on this site. We seem to have moved on here, even allowing for colour process and it’s now a bit vivid – but at least not the miserable NBC green which has also featured here.
Joe
13/04/16 – 06:05
Attached are 2 pictures of 279 with OK Motor Services of Bishop Auckland. This bus was my regular vehicle when I worked there, on the Bishop Auckland to Wolsingham School AM journey.
Stephen Howarth
13/04/16 – 13:42
Joe, I ventured ‘darn sarth’ many years ago, but I stayed! I only remember this style and the NBC green. Perhaps the livery on that PD2 was a failed experiment! My trouble is that, when I return to the north west, folk up there think I’m a Southerner. Nice views, Stephen! Another dignified livery.
Pete Davies
13/04/16 – 13:43
The Southdown livery is one of my favourites, along with Royal Blue and Brighton Corporation/BH&D, before the Corporation changed to an insipid blue and white, while BH&D was absorbed by Southdown and the livery became the much detested National Green.
David Wragg
14/04/16 – 06:02
I am Sussex born and bred, and feel I can make some comments on Southdown livery. The green used on most preserved vehicles tends to be a little too bright. From memory, and looking at some of the other Southdown colour pics on this site and in various books, Southdown green was slightly more ‘yellowy’ and closer to a true apple green. However, we should not let this detract from the splendid job that the preservationists have done.
Roy Nicholson
14/04/16 – 08:14
Interesting, Roy. The Southdown which made such an impression on me was yes, apple green (introduced, it says somewhere, in 1932) which was less vivid and yes a bit yellowy or even olivey. If you look around the net, there seem many shades of Southdown green, but occasionally I see the one I remember. It went with holidays!
Joe
31/07/17 – 07:25
Southdown livery brings back many happy memories of holidays with relatives in Fareham in the 1960’s, taking buses to Lee-on-Solent or Southsea
Andrew Stevens
23/11/17 – 07:23
I drove one of these in the eighties. It had been converted for exhibitions, with lengthways seating, a fridge, sink and a bar upstairs and downstairs. It was registered as a motor caravan by this time. I’m fairly positive it is no longer in existence.
Dews Coaches 1967 Leyland PD3/4 East Lancs H41/32F
This PD3 was delivered to Ramsbottom UDC in November 1967. The chassis is variously described as PD3/4 or PD3/14, the confusion arising because Leyland reclassified its chassis codes at around that time. PD3/4 is probably correct. The body is by East Lancs and was delivered as H41/32, but, again, the capacity is now sometimes quoted as 70 seats. The Ramsbottom fleet was absorbed into SELNEC on 1/11/1969, and FTF 702F was withdrawn by SELNEC’s successor, Greater Manchester PTE, in December 1980. It was sold initially to Gold Star Coaches in St Asaph, North Wales, who then disposed of it to Alpha Coaches of Bootle in 1984. It didn’t stay there for very long, because in July 1984 it appeared in the fleet of Black Prince of Morley, who ran it right up to the end of that firm’s operation in July 2005. First Group sold it in September 2006 to Dews Coaches of Somersham, who added it to their small heritage fleet. FTF is seen here on wedding duties in St Ives (the Huntingdonshire one) on 5/9/2015.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
12/05/16 – 07:15
In my own days in St Ives, Ronny Dew ran a range of Bedford coaches however there were many Leyland PDs operated around the area by Whippet Coaches. Seven ex-Trent 72-seat rear entrance PD3/4s were in this mix but I don’t recall any forward entrance ones in Mr Lee’s fleet. Additionally there were a good number of PD2s most of which also came from Trent. I remember one low-bridge model from East Midland that I had previously ridden whilst it was with working on EMMS home territory.
Les Dickinson
12/05/16 – 17:02
A stunning all Lancashire product looking as good as it did 49 years ago when I first saw it. I prefer preserved vehicles in their original livery but this presentation is 100% plus.
Phil Blinkhorn
13/05/16 – 06:10
Nice view, Roger. I have submitted one to Peter with the bus in “Black Prince” guise, at Duxford, if he’d like to dig it out.
Pete Davies
13/05/16 – 06:11
This fine vehicle was the last bus to run on scheduled Black Prince with one of the Cowther family at the wheel. Black Prince also had a Roe bodied Leyland Titan that was new to Farsley Omnibus. The whereabouts of this bus would be appreciated.
Chris Hough
13/05/16 – 06:12
I was lucky enough to have a ride on it last year at the Peterborough Bus Rally and it was in fine fettle. A friend of mine in his early twenties was at the wheel. For a young lad brought up on modern ‘aim and point’ buses he managed the heavy Leyland manual transmission admirably.
Philip Halstead
13/05/16 – 06:15
As Phil points out, this PD3 in Dew’s colours is a fine example of a traditional livery that stands head and shoulders above the ‘modern’, indulgent, eye offending absurdities that blight bus fleets today. Dews (the firm itself has abandoned the apostrophe) does have a Bedford OWB coach, CUT 465, of 1944 vintage with a later Duple Vista C29F body of 1952. It has made a brief appearance in the Foyle’s War TV series, though purists would declare that its later body makes it an anachronism in a wartime drama. It is seen here in the fenland town of Ramsey, providing a service to the former RAF Upwood airfield during the 1940s August weekend event of 2006. The gentleman facing the camera from behind the nearside mirror is Simon Dew who currently runs the business with his wife Debbie, though his father, David, still has active involvement.
Roger Cox
14/05/16 – 06:43
A slight diversion, I know this is not a model bus site but here is a model I made of the same vehicle in original Ramsbottom UDC livery. It is 00 scale 4mm to 1 foot made from a plastic kit.
Philip Halstead
14/05/16 – 08:49
This picture of “FTF” which I took as it waited to operate the very last ever Black Prince departure from Leeds Vicar Lane to Morley at 2315 on Saturday 30th July 2005. The conductor is Brian Crowther, founder of Black Prince, and the driver is his son David – the route is a tricky one with many stops on the steep Churwell Hill. The bus was virtually full all the way, and one well sozzled client was heard to splutter “What are they doing with old London Transport buses on here ??” Such is the lamentable understanding of many of the lay public about public transport I’m afraid. I have no hesitation in saying that David’s impeccable performance gave us the finest ride on a manual PD3 that we’d ever experienced, not the easiest machines to handle on hills with heavy loads, and the journey was a credit to him and his Dad, who didn’t show their emotions too dramatically but it must have been a very emotive hour for them.
Chris Youhill
15/05/16 – 06:57
Nice views of ‘little’ and ‘large’, Philip and Chris! Could Philip please point us in the right direction for obtaining such a kit?
Pete Davies
16/05/16 – 06:49
The kit was made by a company called Classic Model Company (earlier named MTS) but I am not sure if they are still available. They may be available on e-bay. I did hear the Model Bus Federation had bought the moulds so they many be obtainable through that organisation. The kit is a one piece plastic bodyshell with seating, wings, wheels etc included to be added separately. As kits go they were quite easy to build. They were offered as Leyland PD3 with exposed traditional radiator or St Helens front, AEC Regent V and Daimler CVG6. Transfers were included for Ramsbottom, Haslingden, Bradford, Huddersfield and Black Prince. The firm also did a Bristol FS with transfers for various Tilling/NBC fleets plus Central SMT. When available originally they cost about a fiver so were excellent value and very good quality. Hope this helps.
Philip Halstead
19/05/16 – 06:03
That green and white livery with red wheels is very attractive. Shades of Nottingham Corporation Transport at its best in terms of livery. On balance I think I favour this one over the other good liveries that this vehicle has borne.
Orla Nutting
19/05/16 – 14:40
Thank you, Philip!
Pete Davies
19/05/16 – 14:40
I myself have been lucky enough to drive FTF 702F whilst with Dews, I took it out on a number of occasions on trips to local rallies etc with members of the Cambridge Omnibus Society. A very pleasant bus to drive. The pic shows me with it at Great Yeldham Transport Museum open day in May 2011. It has the obligatory ‘Wedding Special’ on the blind to advertise the fact its available for wedding hire. The destination box being on the small size it would have only shown minimal info when in service.
John Wakefield
27/05/16 – 06:14
I think someone asked about the Farsley bus – HNW 366D. Sadly this was burnt out some years ago.
Paul Turner
07/06/16 – 06:58
After Black Prince HNW 366D moved to Classic Coaches and after the demise of the latter went to auction (with no COF) but was set on fire in the auctioneers yard after its auction. BTW it had spent a brief period, joining HNW 365D, at Hardwick’s in Scarborough after WA ceased Farsley operations in the late 60s.
Ian H
02/08/16 – 06:48
Bancroft and Powers bought my grandfathers business Dec 1968, The Bedford CUT 465 was sold to Morton Potter Leicester I think in 1966, I have recently purchased a model of this bus in Dews colours.
Pauline Peters
30/10/16 – 06:20
The DVLA list owner changes of FTF 702F as follows which differ slightly from those quoted by Roger Cox. current (Dews) 14/9/06 previous(Black Prince) 8/5/84 3rd owner (Alpha Coaches) 29/6/82 disposed 7/12/83 As a matter of interest Dews have recently sold the Leyland to a previous owner in Liverpool, this looks to be Taylor who traded as Alpha Coaches, Bootle.
John Wakefield
02/11/16 – 14:56
Travelled on this many times when it was Selnec 6408 and based at Bury, in the mid 70s.
David Pomfret
14/12/16 – 15:48
Most unusually, this Ramsbottom PD3 was allocated to Rochdale depot by Greater Manchester Transport in the mid 1970s. Rochdale Corporation had never bought Leylands since 1940 and Rochdale’s own Leylands were all withdrawn by 1956. A couple of withdrawn Bolton Leyland PD2s with manual gearboxes were sent to Rochdale in the 1970s for driver training purposes, then 6408 appeared in passenger use. It was the only front-engined Leyland to operate from Rochdale’s Mellor Street depot after 1956.
Ian Holt
06/06/17 – 07:07
I’ve recently received an email with a photo showing that this PD3 has now been repainted back into its original Rawtenstall livery.
