Moor-Dale Coaches 1949 Leyland Titan PD2 Metro Cammell H30/26R
Moor-Dale coaches were based in Longbenton to the North East of Newcastle. I don’t know if it was a takeover or a merger, but they became Moor-Dale Curtis. The fleet was moved to the much larger Curtis depot in Dudley, a former mining village in Northumberland which about seven miles to the north of Newcastle, they later bought out Rochester and Marshall who were based in Great Whittington Northumberland, all vehicles were painted in Moor-Dale livery, and the Curtis and R&M names were dropped and the company became the More-Dale Group. They are now part of a group which among others includes – Hylton Castle Coaches of Sunderland, Classic Coaches of Annfield Plain, Moor-Dale and Primrose. For may years they did. and to the best of my knowledge still do provide the Newcastle United team coach, by coach I mean the vehicle the players ride in, not the person who shows them how to pretend they’ve been hurt. Apart from a couple of executive vehicle ‘usually Volvo’ the coach fleet was usually made of Plaxton bodied Bedford’s, I don’t know if they were bought or leased, but about a third of the fleet changed every year, and they only seemed to have them for about three years at a time. The livery was very a very patriotic red white and blue, but the layout seemed to change with every new intake of vehicles. Double deck works and school contract vehicles were a different matter. I can remember an ex Southdown Leyland Titan ‘Park Royal I think’ the name was changed, but it was never repainted, but generally they were painted red, with blue centre band and blue mudguards. The two seen here are KGU 60, an H30/26R Metro Cammell bodied ex London Transport RTL from 1949; RTL610, and SFC 425; a former City of Oxford H30/26R Weymann bodied AEC Regent III, from 1952 numbered 425, they also had at leas one Ribble Leyland White Lady. One thing I could never understand, more or less on the doorstep, they had the Corporation fleets on Newcastle, South Shields and Sunderland, they also had the NGT group and United, but all their D/D’s seemed to come from well outside the area.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
12/06/14 – 08:37
Now owned by ARRIVA if part of the same group that owns the others.
Stephen Howarth
12/06/14 – 14:24
Curtis was purchased by Northumbria in the late 1980s along with Hunters of Seaton Delaval. For a time Curtis, Moor-Dale and Hunters buses were kept at the site at Dudley. According to Wikipedia, Moor-Dale was sold back to its original directors at the time Northumbria was bought by British Bus (1994): British Bus eventually merged into Arriva. However the present registered office of Moor-Dale is the same as that of Arriva, so either the company name never in fact left the Northumbria – British Bus – Arriva consolidation chain or in the last 20 years was brought back in.
Paul Robson
12/06/14 – 14:58
I often used to travel to Newcastle from the Lakes in the 1970s to visit relatives and there were always plenty of Moor-Dale coaches heading in the opposite direction, all of them new as you mention Ronnie. There was also a steady stream of colourful coaches from other North-East operators during the season, especially Beeline (Goldcase Group) and T&WPTE (still branded as Armstrong-Galley) as well as Primrose (Bisset), H E Craiggs, and Priory. The only Moor-dale decker I recall was NFV 316, an ex Blackpool PD2/27, which I saw in Newcastle in 1977.
Mike Morton
13/06/14 – 11:34
Among other D/D’s bought by Moor-Dale that are relevant to this site were DUF 154; 1950 Northern Counties Leyland TD4 EUF 176; Park Royal? Leyland ??? both Ex Southdown, and both possibly pre war rebodies. Neither were ever repainted in Moor-Dale livery. LUC 355; another 1950 former LT MCW bodied RTL, this was RTL 980. DCK 209; 1950 FCL27/22RD East Lancs bodied Leyland PD2/37. Former Ribble White Lady 1238, I think it was one of a pair. WDC 76; 1959 H33/28R MCW Oron bodied Leyland PD2/37, new to Brighton Corporation. They the above were all used as School and works contract vehicles, but after deregulation, and presumably after they had been bought out by Northumbria, Moor-Dale started stage carriage services, and vehiles were bought from many sources to run the services
Tyneside Omnibus Company 1954 Leyland Titan PD2/12 MCW H32/26R
GTY 169; 39, one that Chris Youhill will no doubt recognise, but not in this livery. It was one of nine H32/26R MCW Orion bodied Leyland PD2/12’s delivered to Tyneside in 1954, GTY 169/177 numbered 39/47. Shortly after they were delivered, the number plates were moved from the radiator to the front panel under the windscreen, so the photo must be 1954. They remained in service until 1966, and all of them had a second life. 39 – Samuel Ledgard 40 – Wells of Hatfield, Peverel 43/44 – Paton Brothers, Renfrew 41/2/5/6&7 remained with the NGT Group.
Four of them became Driver Training vehicles.
But 47 was turned over to the engineering department. It was cut down, and at first it became a mobile workshop/towing vehicle, it later became a ‘tree lopper’ and was still around in 1980.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
23/06/14 – 11:17
Thx, Ronnie, for the interesting photos showing the story of their lives. I’m intrigued about tree-lopping. This always seemed to be done by bus companies originally, witness the number of tree-loppers around in past times, but I don’t know who does it now, if anyone at all, by the looks of some deckers’ front domes! Was there originally any statutory requirement for bus companies to do this and what is the current situation?
Chris Hebbron
23/06/14 – 16:30
About twenty years ago Luton & District did it, under contract, for Buckinghamshire C C. I believe this is where tree lopping ended up but with cut backs (pun not intended) money dried up in local authorities and I suspect this is the reason for the dire condition of buses now – because no-one takes responsibility. I think it still lies with local authorities but an operator friend of mine said that anyone was entitled to cut back trees overhanging the public highway – even when they were growing on private property, often behind fence or boundary lines. He always carried a pair of strong cutters on his coach. [He operated new, expensive, coaches in a rural area.]
David Oldfield
24/06/14 – 07:42
David, I think you’re correct: where trees over-grow private or public land then the owner or any member of the public has the right to cut back over-hanging branches to the boundary . . . as long as they offer any severed wood back to land-owner on who’s land the tree stood. According to James Freeman’s history of King Alfred Motor Services the company were, after a rather too enthusiastic/dramatic session, prohibited from lopping trees in Winchester by the local authority – after which the tree-lopping vehicle was lain up within the depot. Within my locality of the old Aireborough UDC there is evidence of tree-lopping, but I’ve never seen anybody doing any . . . and I can’t believe First or Centrebus/Yorkshire Tiger would bother to keep the resources themselves.
Philip Rushworth
24/06/14 – 07:45
The current legislation concerning the obstruction of the public highway by trees may be found in the Highways Act 1980. The responsibilities lie with the Highway Authorities, but there may often be a delay in the carrying out of remedial action. Clearances should be 2.4m over a footpath and 5.3m over a roadway. Even trees covered by a preservation order are required to comply, but only the very minimum amount of pruning is acceptable in such cases. In the past, many, if not most of the larger operators kept their own tree cutting vehicles to minimise the expensive damage to roof domes, but, in the aggressively profit driven bus industry of modern times, this “avoidable cost” has long since been expunged from the P/L account. The big groups of today seem to have no pride in fleet presentation.
Roger Cox
24/06/14 – 13:49
And, Roger, there’s the ever-present “Safety Elf”, who says it isn’t safe for company staff to do the work, even without the operator’s legal advisers who worry about being prosecuted by the trees’ owners!
Pete Davies
26/06/14 – 14:10
Most modern double deckers now have tree guards on the nearside (or on both sides) to protect the front windows and bodywork from damage by trees. There are now vastly more trees near roads (and railways) and little attempt seems to be made to keep them cut back.
Geoff Kerr
27/06/14 – 07:05
Geoff. This was the problem which Network Rail had with the big storms last Winter. Trees on embankments were falling like mad and trains were having to move slowly to avoid accidents causing chaos. In steam days, trees were cleared to avoid sparks setting light to them. And grass verges seem to be getting overgrown now. The other day, on a bypass, foliage was brushing the side of my car and I was 12″ away from the kerb!
Chris Hebbron
27/06/14 – 13:32
There is another aspect of overhanging trees and bushes not being cut back by anyone (owners, local authorities, highway agency of bus companies). That is the fact that at road junctions, road signs and / or traffic lights are being hidden from view until the motorist is nearly on them. If driving on an unfamiliar road, and looking for directions, this can be particularly hazardous. Sometimes I wish I had access to a certain company’s Guy Arab tree-loppers, and take a crew along some of our main roads. (I refer to Southdown 460/461 – the only way this modern day comment can count as being relevant to this site!).
Michael Hampton
28/06/14 – 14:22
Yes, Michael, the Guy Arab tree loppers. I also recall they had a Queen Mary one and a Bristol VR the latter in yellow with blue trimmings (genuine Freudian slip, this!). Sad that Portsmouth Corporation never had need of one. Wonder what they would have converted if they had? I’d have wanted one of their TSM’s!
Chris Hebbron
28/06/14 – 14:59
Chris – Your dreams have come true. Portsmouth Corporation did have a TSM tree lopper. 80 RV 1143. The vehicle was stolen from Eastney depot, and driven through the Fareham Railway arch. I have vague recollections of it attending to the trees in Stubbington Avenue around 1950.
Pat Jennings
29/06/14 – 07:15
Now THAT really is news to me, Pat – wishful thinking come true! I wonder if any photos exist of it in that state. My post of one of CPPTD’s TSM’s, in the second photo, shows 80 in original condition.
Chris Hebbron
17/12/15 – 07:41
Reading the various comments about tree lopping brings to mind an incident I became involved in on the A591 alongside Thirlmere lake about 1975 a section of road very much in the news at present where 9 landslides occurred as a result of the very heavy rain. I was a haulage contractor at the time operating a Foden S80 cabbed 8 wheel bulk animal feed blower which had a high box body with catwalk down the middle. Early one morning travelling through the Lakes to a farm in the Ulverston area I was flagged down by a Ribble driver and an inspector parked hard against the tree covered mountainside. They asked if they could climb on top of my lorry and try and cut off a broken low hanging branch that had been striking double deckers on the 555 service. They had thought they could stand on the roof of the Marshall bodied Leopard they had and cut the branch off but found they could not scramble onto the smooth curved roof from the high roadside embankment. Elf n Safety at its best !! However I took the bushman saw they had and knowing where to tread on top of my load was soon able to reach the branch and quickly cut it off. Just another episode of driving lorries and buses through the lakes.
Birkenhead 10 entered service in January 1958 with Birkenhead Corporation Transport. It has bodywork by Massey Brothers of Wigan which had been a major supplier of bus bodies to Birkenhead for various chassis since 1931. From 1957 to 1967 Birkenhead had almost totally standardised on the Leyland PD2s with Massey bodywork. Although there were inevitable changes in body design, there where essentially only two external appearances of body. The later design that had a more upright front profile is shown on the Wirral Transport Museum’s Birkenhead 152. In 1969 10 passed to the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive (MPTE) where it served until February 1974. Although out of public service, 10 then spent a further six years of service in the driver training school. In 1980 Birkenhead 10 became part of the 201 bus preservation society. It is seen at NWVRT open day in June 2014 at Kirkby.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
01/09/14 – 07:30
Just a classic. Nothing more to say.
Phil Blinkhorn
01/09/14 – 18:50
I’ve always felt Massey’s bodies to be a bit of a mixed bag, in terms of some designs, but this one can’t be faulted. The Wirral was very colourful in this era, what with Birkenhead and Wallasey Corporations’ cheery liveries.
Chris Hebbron
02/09/14 – 06:46
The epitome of a British municipal bus. Straightforward chassis and body design coupled with a superb and tasteful livery. The fleetname and crest show a high degree of civic pride that existed with most municipals in those days. Also a clear and easily legible destination display with no need for the bus to be daubed in route branding graffiti like today. Sheer class.
Philip Halstead
16/04/15 – 06:46
Class indeed, and what a sight it used to be at the Woodside Ferry terminal to see dozens of these lined up, always looking smart, with the dull green Crosville buses terminating farther up the hill. I remember you could get off a bus (or a ferry) at Woodside and catch a train from Woodside Station to London Paddington. Now it’s all gone.
Mr Anon
07/10/19 – 07:25
Not all entirely gone as buses still go down to the Woodside ferry just nowhere near as many but the same goes for the river Mersey which once was busy with ships, boats, ferries up and down now a thing of the past but will once again be back but then even busier not in my lifetime though. My father in law drove this bus, and when he sadly passed away this exact same bus led the funeral cars to the church.
Blackburn Corporation – Blackburn Borough Transport 1962 Leyland Titan PD2A/24 East Lancs H35/28R
The local government reorganisation of 1974 resulted in the merger of the municipal fleets of Blackburn and Darwen. The initial livery was a compromise, using Darwen’s red and Blackburn’s green, although the shades of these colours were rather brighter than those previously used. The combined undertaking was titled “Blackburn Borough Transport”, the word “Corporation” ceased to be used at this time (at least for bus fleets) except in Douglas The main subject of this picture is 25 (PCB 25) a Leyland Titan PD2A/24 with East Lancs H35/28R bodywork, one of twelve delivered to Blackburn Corporation in 1962; a further twelve identical vehicles followed in 1964. These followed batches of Guy Arab IV’s, and I’m sure the drivers will have appreciated the semi-automatic gearboxes on these Titans. Other vehicles of both Blackburn and Ribble can be seen, including the rear of an Atlantean in the previous Blackburn livery. After a few years a version of the latter livery was applied to the whole fleet.
The photograph was taken at The Boulevard bus terminus, which was right outside Blackburn Railway Station. This terminus served the town well until recently, but at the time of writing this area is a building site, with temporary traffic lights causing delays to buses entering or leaving the town from the south. A new bus station is under construction near to the market hall, and a temporary bus station has been built nearby. Nowadays the former municipal services are operated by Transdev Lancashire United, which revives a once proud name, although not in it’s original operating area.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
11/09/14 – 077:00
Don, there was another exception – Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Transport. Buses proudly carried the fleet name ‘Barrow Corporation’ well into the 1980s. They retained their smart cream and dark blue livery and a coat of arms too. Nice picture with plenty of background interest which captures the era well.
Mike Morton
13/09/14 – 06:35
The semi-automatic PD2 (as opposed to PD3) was a pretty rare vehicle really. And I don’t recall the centrifugal clutches rattling on these PD2s the way they did on Ribble, Wigan, Preston etc PD3s when idling.
Michael Keeley
14/09/14 – 07:26
There were indeed more semi-automatic PD3s built for UK operators than semi-automatic PD2s, but not all that many more. I can think of 391 PD2s, whereas the total for PD3s was, I think, about 580. The main customer for two-pedal PD2s was Glasgow Corporation Transport, which took 325. Others operators which spring to mind are Blackburn (24), Leeds (20), Huddersfield (6), Manchester (6), Swindon (5), King Alfred (2), Ramsbottom (1), Walsall (1), Demonstrator (1). Taking Glasgow out of the equation gives 66 PD2s and about 440 PD3s, so, outside Glasgow, two-pedal PD2s were indeed relatively rare. There’s no way a centrifugal clutch couldn’t rattle, so if the Blackburn PD2A/24s didn’t rattle then there’s no way they could have been centrifugal clutch, they must have been fluid flywheel, which is what I would have said they were anyway. Of the Ribble two-pedal PD3s, only 1706-1800 were centrifugal clutch, the final batch (1815-50) being fluid flywheel. All two-pedal Preston PD3s were centrifugal clutch, but they only took the one batch (of seven), choosing manual transmissions for all subsequent PD3s. I never seriously encountered the Wigan PD3s, sorry.
David Call
16/09/14 – 07:52
Never realised Glasgow had so many, their half-cabs were long gone by the first time I visited that city. Come to think of it, it was only the Ribble 1700s that rattled. The Wigans rattled with a vengeance as evidenced by the video of HEK 705 on Youtube. Some early Atlanteans had centrifugal clutches I believe, but had them quickly replaced by fluid flywheels, what did they sound like I wonder.
Michael Keeley
13/08/20 – 10:26
Brighton buses also proclaimed “Brighton Corporation” well into the eighties.
Newport Corporation 1958 Leyland Titan PD2/40 Longwell Green H30/28R
I don’t recall seeing any example of Longwell Green bodywork on here, so here it is. This Leyland Titan PD2/40 was new to Newport as their number 178 in 1958. Seating arrangement is H30/28R. An unusual feature is the upward bow of the canopy line. This picture was taken at Bus & Coach Wales, in Merthyr Tydfil, 14/09/2014, She looks good for 56 years old!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
22/09/14 – 07:15
The upward bow to the canopy gave a rather old fashioned look to a late 1950’s bus. Otherwise this design seems to have similarities to Burlingham bodies of the same era. The fairly heavily radiused windows being the major similarity. This is a totally different design to the Stockport PD2’s which were the only Longwell Green bodies I was familiar with. The Stockport bodies were more akin to a Park Royal style.
Philip Halstead
22/09/14 – 15:01
You notice one thing & others follow…Whence came those funny bobble indicator lights? You can’t see them when alongside. A lot of “standard” sets (behind cab & rear) were retrofitted, I know, and there was a brief time of jumbo-trafficators but were they compulsory & in orange by this date? Deep top panel of windscreen- when did these become generally one-piece and why two piece for so long? Small front saloon window- heater? Windows seem proud……. Lovely looking restoration.
Joe
22/09/14 – 15:02
Philip, I beg to differ. The Stockport vehicles were very much based on the Burlingham design. See my article “Stockport Corporation Transport 1958-1969. The Stockport bodies had no relationship to the Park Royal design. You are thinking of the previous batch of PD2s which were Crossley bodies built to Park Royal drawings as Crossley were under the same ownership as Park Royal.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/09/14 – 15:02
Copyright tarboat – Flickr
Stockport’s Longwell Green bodies are thought to have been built using Burlingham frames and from the rear look very similar to the two batches of Burlingham bodies supplied to Manchester (TNA 471-579). There are other similarities too in the radii used on the number blinds etc. The windows look different partly because of Stockport’s preference for wind down windows and the associated drip rails. However the Stockport buses that look really akin to the Park Royal style are the Crossley bodied PD2s delivered in 1958 which were built on Park Royal 4 bay frames.
Orla Nutting
23/02/15 – 07:25
I remember these buses being newly delivered. One bus, the first, ODW 298 had a straight front. The flashing indicators were fitted from new if memory serves me well. This vehicle passed to a local scout group and was repurchased by N.C.T.
Brian
04/02/22 – 05:47
Opening windscreens on PSVs was mandatory until around 1957/8 in theory so the driver could open the windscreen for better vision in fog. Whilst coaches adopted large curve fixed windscreens almost immediately service buses continued with tradition until the early 60s (Routemasters until end of production except for the NGT & BEA ones).
Liverpool City Transport 1956 Leyland Titan PD2/20 Crossley H33/29R
New in November 1956, L255 was one of a batch of 65 Leyland Titan PD2/20 chassis that had been ordered back in 1955, partly to enable the 19 & 44 tram routes to be converted to bus operation. It was originally painted in the Dark green livery with two cream bands. When new L255 was allocated to Carnegie Road garage, but its stay there was only short lived as it was transferred to Walton in March 1957. There it was used on routes such as 19/44/92/93 serving the new expanding housing estates of Kirkby, Southdene and Tower Hill as well as the Corporations own Kirkby Industrial Estate. where it lives today! When Walton closed for rebuilding in October 1962, L255, along with the majority of Waltons allocation moved to the new Gillmoss garage . Following overhauls in 1966 and 1971 it returned to Gillmoss. It then moved to Litherland garage in August 1973 and saw use on services 28,51,52,53,55,55A,56,57,57A,58,59 to Ford, Netherton and Sefton. L255’s stay at Litherland was a short one as it was transferred for the last time in April 1975 to Green Lane. There it was used mainly on peak hour extras and industrial workings until it was finally withdrawn from service in March 1976. Purchased for preservation in May 1976 and joined the other vehicles in the growing Mersey and Calder Preservation group in 1977. As L255 was in basically good condition it was soon rubbed down and painted back into the early 1960’s livery of green with cream staircase panel and window surrounds. In 1996 after more than 20 years in active preservation and with more than 25 years since a major overhaul, it was time for some major body restoration. After stripping every external panel off the bus, it was soon found that there was a fair amount of work involved. Following a flurry of activity in early 2007, L255 was eventually completed finally passing the MOT 2 days before the Mersey Transport Trust’s annual running day in September 2007, proving a popular attraction during the day. During 2009 a rechromed drivers window surround was fitted and in 2010 side adverts were added much improving its appearance. It is seen at the 2014 Kirkby running day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
28/10/14 – 07:03
I always thought that the Liverpool bonnet assembly detracted from the overall look of these buses. The flush windscreen and unusual livery application didn’t really help either
Chris Hough
29/10/14 – 07:12
Totally agree Chris. Much better looking examples of what was a PRV design were operated in the North West by Oldham and Stockport.
Phil Blinkhorn
29/10/14 – 15:59
When compared to other tin fronts of the period, the front panel and the area around the windscreen, give it a sort of DIY in-house accident repair appearance, rather than one that was built that way in the first place.
Ronnie Hoye
30/10/14 – 07:16
There is a lot of confusion about Crossley bodies of this period. Despite employing the PRV rear emergency window, I don’t believe this was the PRV design (as supplied later to Stockport and Oldham), and neither does the Crossley book (Eyre Heaps & Townsin). Mind you, that book isn’t foolproof; identical bodies supplied to Darwen are coded as the PRV design, while those supplied to Sunderland are coded as a Liverpool design. The flat front to the upper deck is something specifically requested by Liverpool and used on Crossley bodies elsewhere. The standard Midland Red assembly would not have allowed this, and in fact later Liverpool bodies with the Midland Red assembly had bow-fronted bodies by Duple and Alexander.
Peter Williamson
31/10/14 – 06:27
As the owner of the bus, I can confirm that the Crossley body is of Park Royal design, I have restored both L255 & Park Royal bodied Barrow 170 CEO 957, the only difference being the window frames. Liverpool using glass mounted from the inside with a window ledge inside as against the Standard Park Royal body on 170 with windows mounted from the outside with a ledge outside. The last true Crossley designed body supplied to Liverpool was L224, L225 to L244 also carried Crossley framework but the coachwork was completed by LCPT at Edge lane works. I hope this clarifies it more.
Rob Wilson
03/11/14 – 06:34
Thanks for your clarification, Rob. It probably means I’ve been spouting rubbish on various forums for some time, thanks to believing what experts write in books. One thing that fooled me (not clear in this view but there are plenty of other photos around) was the small rectangular windows in the front bulkhead, which Crossley had used on their own-framed bodies. On other Park Royal-framed Crossley bodies the bulkhead is the standard Park Royal type with a deeply arched lower rail to the windows. Perhaps this is again due to the different glazing system used for Liverpool (and Darwen, Sunderland and Aberdeen).
Peter Williamson
03/11/14 – 10:19
A quick scan on SCT61 pages suggests that Liverpool specified that size of front bulkhead window on all their contemporary Leyland deckers be they Saunders-Roe, Duple, Alexander or Crossley bodied. On Stockport’s Crossley bodied Leyland deckers with PRV frames the bulkhead window bottom rail does follow the line of the engine cover but it, and those on the next batch of Longwell Green bodies, is still a very narrow window (made to look even more so by the top opening vent) compared with that fitted to their later East Lancs bodied St Helens front PD2s.
Orla Nutting
03/11/14 – 16:28
Liverpool made a habit of taking framed chassis from the likes of Weymann and Crossley but then changing the profiles. There were some very odd Weymann/Liverpool bodies on Regent IIs with an upright profile which ruined the general style of the Weymann original – and I believe they also had non-Weymann upper deck tear emergency exits. Even the Met-Camm Orion Regent Vs were not standard Met-Camm. That accolade went to the the famous Nottingham PD2s famous because they were the first Nottingham PD2s.
David Oldfield
04/11/14 – 06:45
…..and of course there were the 1949 all Crossley DD42s that Sheffield acquired new as a cancelled Liverpool order. These were neither the popularly remembered Crossley outline, nor did they have the PRV framed body. These were identical to the Regent IIIs and the first Regent Vs which Liverpool took delivery of and kept hold of. Although L255 is obviously based on the PRV design, there are also elements of the earlier design around the front (especially upper deck).
David Oldfield
05/11/14 – 06:40
Hopefully a rather extensive restoration of Barrow 170 will be completed soon by the Barrow Transport group. So I hope that when it ventures to our NWVRT Open day at Kirkby (plug 31/5/2015)we can get them parked together to record similarities. Another Park Royal trait that L255 carries internally is the pressed out lighting mounts along the cove panels in the upper saloon ,just like the ones on 170 & Park Royal bodied Liverpool E1. The Crossley Bodies AEC’s and the Liverpool PD2’s up to L224 had their lights at the edge of the ceiling . Was this a standard Crossley practice ?
Rob Wilson
11/11/14 – 18:20
I now have to eat some more of my words. Earlier I said that use of the standard Leyland (originally Midland Red) bonnet assembly would not have allowed Liverpool to have their much-loved flat-fronted upper deck. I got this idea from Alan Townsin’s Duple book, which says that the uncharacteristic bow fronts of the Duple bodies on L91-140 were dictated by the design of the Leyland tin-front. However, I now find that Darwen’s pair of Crossley-bodied PD2/20s managed to incorporate both the Leyland tin front and the Liverpool-style flat-fronted upper deck perfectly well – see www.sct61.org.uk/dw15 I also think I have solved the conundrum of the bulkhead window. Other photos of L255 show it to have a much wider bulkhead window than the Crossley-framed bodies, and the reason for departing from the standard PRV window was almost certainly the rearward-facing seat behind the bulkhead, which I had forgotten about. I have reverted to my earlier belief that other Crossley bodies with the narrow window (Darwen, Sunderland, Aberdeen) were Crossley-framed.
Peter Williamson
04/06/16 – 07:07
I thought I had a photo of a Liverpool Crossley DD42 and have now found it. C642 taken at Pier Head on July 5, 1962, still in cream bands livery and by this time only appearing on school, university and short workings.
Geoff Pullin
08/01/21 – 07:33
I loved the batch of Leylands that replaced the trams. When I became a bus spotter circa 1962, the fleet still had remnants of pre war buses when it was difficult to buy one. When Leyland Atlanteans were used on my school route 61 to Aigburth, occasionally in the peak hours you would get a 1947/8 Leyland Titan PD2/1 (L425-428) with Leyland coachwork with moquette seats, very harsh with short kegs (trousers). They were almost posh for their time and its such a shame that none of them were saved. I believe L316-318 were not painted as A40. Shame they were not saved as well. I used to go to the Edge Lane depot and walk around the withdrawals, Daimlers, early AEC Regent IIIs (grim). Those lovely enamelled AEC badges on the radiators and bell pushes…… I was only 11.
North Western Road Car Co 1956 Leyland Titan PD2/21 Weymann L30/28RD
Until the arrival of ten of these in the North Western fleet in 1956, previous examples of the Leyland PD2 had featured traditional exposed radiators and bodywork by either Leyland themselves, or by Weymann, who had supplied six lightweight but otherwise classically styled bodies in 1953. This last batch featured the PD2/21 chassis with the concealed front – originally designed for Midland Red’s LD8 class, then adopted as standard by Leyland, even leaving the oddly shaped blank space above the grille slots intended for the BMMO badge. The PD2/21 was the less common air-braked variant of the more common vacuum-braked PD2/20. The bodywork was the lowbridge manifestation of the MCW organisation’s lightweight Orion, regarded by many as being particularly slab-sided and ugly, though personally I always felt that the equal depth windows (compared with the unequal ones of the highbridge version) at least improved the overall proportions. It seems that they were generally unpopular with crews and most local enthusiasts, being accused of being very hard riding. They were quite a familiar site to me – particularly on Summer Saturdays when the usual ‘blacktop’ Tiger Cubs or Reliances were needed for greater things – as they would often pass through my home town of Halifax working on the X12 between Manchester and Bradford. Although this service passed our house, the limited stop conditions on that section left it out of bounds to us locals, so I never got to ride on one. Although the other nine were scrapped, Neville Mercer has said that 666 was exported to Canada, so there is a remote chance that it could still exist. Similar looking examples were also bought by East Midland, and the Corporations of Luton and Southend. Here 666 is seen on the parking ground off Wood Street in Stockport, alongside 258, a Leopard PSU4/4R with Duple Commander III C41F body of 1968.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
29/10/14 – 17:07
When I worked at Sharston (near Northenden) 666 from Manchester depot, took me on the first leg of my journey home to Royton. It was on the 64 service to Piccadilly (from Ringway) almost every day. I hated it. The suspension was indeed very hard. I usually sat on the front nearside seat in the lower deck, which was not too bumpy. The North Western drivers always gave me a fast run into town – they made good time by ignoring one or two intending passengers. As for sound effects, the journey was accompanied by sneezing noises from the air brakes! At summer weekends it sometimes appeared on X12, Manchester – Halifax – Bradford. I had the misfortune to ride on it one Saturday from Bradford to Oldham. The West Riding road surfaces made for a miserable journey! Wouldn’t mind a ride on it now though!!
Peter G
29/10/14 – 17:08
John mentions that these lowbridge PD2’s were familiar to him as they regularly passed through Halifax on the X12. This one actually passed through Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1972, on its way west, it certainly took me by surprise when I caught a glimpse of it. I’m not sure if it still exists or not, or just where it might be.
Dave Careless
30/10/14 – 07:18
The problem of harsh riding given by the lightweight Orion and its clones was shared by other makes of chassis, all of which were sprung to carry the typical weight of traditional, decent quality bodywork.
Roger Cox
30/10/14 – 07:19
Not only were they hard riding, they were finished to a cheap specification, rattled a lot and the crews hated the rear doors. All in all not the finest NWRCC vehicles.
Phil Blinkhorn
30/10/14 – 07:20
It’s lovely to see a photo of the registration number KDB 666 as nature intended, adorning a North Western Leyland Titan. In the late 1970’s the registration number could often be seen around Harrogate, attached to a very nice green Rover 3500. The bus connection was maintained however, as the Rover was used by one of NBC/West Yorkshire Road Car’s senior managers.
Brendan Smith
05/11/14 – 06:29
I have a note of seeing this bus in Frank Cowley’s yard in Fallowfield, re-registered KDB 499, in January 1972. I wonder what that mark was transferred from?
Michael Keeley
05/11/14 – 11:36
I’ve long wondered if “KDB 499” was a real registration mark. Given the fundamentalist tendencies of many North Americans I can understand why Cowley (given a Canadian buyer for the vehicle) might have decided to remove the original “Number of the Beast” plate, but would they really have gone to the trouble of officially re-registering it with a similar mark? My suspicion is that the plate was for purely cosmetic purposes. Back in the late 60s I saw a few withdrawn NWRCC vehicles being ferried to Cowley’s Salford and Fallowfield premises using the dealer’s “BA” trade plates, and once the PD2/21 had gotten there its next trip was on a boat. I’d also be interested to find out when the WYRCC staff-car received the registration. Was there a noticeable gap? The PSV Circle’s NWRCC fleet history asserts that KDB 499 was a genuine registration, but as aficionados of these histories will be aware the level of accuracy in this is not up to their usual standard. Does anybody have a record of Stockport registrations?
Neville Mercer
06/11/14 – 06:08
KDB 499 may well have been a real registration mark but not to NWRCC for a PSV. They had KDB 631 to KDB 700, all but 661-670 being applied to Tiger Cub deliveries in 1956 and 1957.
Orla Nutting
06/11/14 – 11:42
Hi Orla, I think you’ve forgotten the batch of Weymann Fanfares that started at KDB 626, making a total of 75 vehicles in the block allocation. KDB 499 was presumably allocated to a private car, and I really can’t understand why NWRCC would go to the trouble of re-registering the vehicle before selling it to Cowley. Back in those days this would have involved buying the previous vehicle to wear the marks – a rather expensive manoeuvre merely to get rid of one old bus. There’s obviously another story going on here – the allocation of 666’s old registration number to the WYRCC staff car. I appreciate that “KDB” looks vaguely like a WYRCC fleet number, but a staff car would look nothing like a Keighley based Bristol double-decker! Why would anybody (especially a no-nonsense THC subsidiary) pay good money to do this? Do we have any ex-WYRCC readers who can throw further light on this?
Neville Mercer
06/11/14 – 14:15
Ah, yes. The AEC Reliances. I had forgotten them.
Orla Nutting
07/11/14 – 13:17
Neville, the senior member of staff arrived in Harrogate from elsewhere in the National Bus Company empire, and the Rover came with him, already bearing its KDB 666 registration. Maybe he had a soft spot for this particular bus (666) or perhaps there was something of significance in the registration. Alas we’ll probably never know.
Brendan Smith
11/11/14 – 18:18
I’ve done some digging in my records and find that KDB 666 was on a Rover 3500 that came under West Yorkshire admin on 16/1/75. However, it runs in my mind that the NBC ‘senior member’ was Robert Brook, and that he didn’t come to Yorkshire to join West Yorkshire, but to live. Certainly, it’s shown as being the ‘Chief Executive’s’ car. At about this time, if you remember, NBC was also running an area office in Darlington, to which Bill Stephen had been ‘shunted’ when he was removed as WY Chief Engineer, but whether that was where Mr Brook also worked I can’t now remember. I suspect he probably spent a lot of time commuting to London!
Trevor Leach
12/11/14 – 05:36
Presumably the Robert Brook who was General Manager of North Western at the time it was broken up? I seem to recall that there was another Robert Brook, although I might just have been confused by rapid ‘career moves’!
Nigel Frampton
09/04/15 – 07:05
I remember seeing a beige Rover in Cheadle in the late sixties or early seventies with the reg KDB 666. I loved occasionally having a lowbridge Titan on my journey to school. The routes 29, 30, 52 and 52A were predominantly Daimler Fleetlines, Dennis Lolines 2 and 3 and AEC Renowns (my favourite bus ever was AJA 121B one of the second batch with moquette upholstery on the upper deck) so a lowbridge Titan was quite a novelty.
Graham Bloxsome
23/05/15 – 07:05
There’s no mystery. Robert Brook was the last GM of North Western and he took the registration with him for his car when he left at the end of 1972. He also left with a photo I prepared for him of 666 as delivered in the old cream roof black wings livery. He and I left the Manchester area at the same time and he kindly let me speak to him in his office knowing my interest in North Western and as owner of CDB 206.
Bob Bracegirdle
01/09/17 – 15:14
I’ve just read through this thread and can definitely clarify, if there’s still any uncertainty, that Robert Brook was overall Chairman of NBC in 1978-80 at a time when Linda Chalker was Minister for Transport. My GM at the time would say ‘Oh dear, we’ve got another Dear Robert, love Linda.’ i.e. another memo from the Minister to our lord and master that had to be dealt with. Presumably Bob B’s ‘left’ didn’t mean retirement, or could have referred to another RB?
W. Alexander & Sons Ltd. 1953 Leyland Titan PD2/12 Alexander L27/26R
W. Alexander & Sons Ltd Leyland Titan PD2/12 with Alexander lowbridge bodywork RB161 DWG 917, ‘Bus Lists on the Web’ have it listed as new to Alexander in 1952, ‘British Bus Fleets have RB160 DWG 916 listed at 1953, though not all of the batch are listed. But other sources on the web have it dated at 1954, clarification on this matter may prove interesting.
As can be seen below the RB161 fleet number plate is a small plate with the letters ‘BN’ which stood for the ‘Bannockburn’ depot. It is seen at A-Bus in October 2014 on a trip in connection with the Bristol Vintage Bus Group running day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
06/11/14 – 08:23
This bus is not in Alexander (Midland) livery, but in the W. Alexander livery that existed until 1961 when the fleet was split into three – Midland, Fife and Northern. The fleet numbers were then prefixed with M, F or N respectively. This bus latterly ran in the attractive yellow and cream colour scheme of Alexander (Northern) and is seen in the attached photo along with sister NRB163 at Elgin depot on 6th September 1970, complete with E’ depot plate.
David Beilby
06/11/14 – 08:25
I have changed the header and copy to remove the (Midland) part.
Peter
06/11/14 – 09:06
W.Alexander & Sons Leyland Titan, DWG 917 was first registered on 4th June 1953. As part of the new vehicle licencing system the DVLA has a public website which shows if your vehicle is currently road taxed, it also shows when a vehicle was first registered, just google “vehicle enquiry service.gov.uk”, enter your registration and chassis type to check if your vehicle is covered.
A 1950 H30/26R all Leyland Titan of Newcastle Corporation. One of 52 of the type delivered between 1948 and 1950. PD2/1 1948 registrations LVK 115/136 fleet numbers 115/136 1950 registrations NBB 281 – 300 fleet numbers 281/300 PD2/3 1950 registrations NVK 301/310 fleet numbers 301/310 In addition, there were six L27/26R PD2/1 low bridge versions 1949 registrations LVK 6/11 fleet numbers 6/11 The all Leyland Titan was well built and reliable, and as good a looking vehicle as anything else that was around at the time, but sometimes its what’s in the background that makes a photo interesting rather than the subject matter itself. NBB 286 is heading south towards Newcastle City Centre and is about enter Barras Bridge. The large building is the Hancock Museum, which is at the junction of Claremont Road, what looks like a Duple butterfly ‘chassis unknown’ heading north on the Great North Road, which at that time was still the A1. A 1949/50 MCCW bodied BUT 9641T trolleybus is coming out of Jesmond Road, so the year is pre 1966. Behind it is a Percy Main vehicle which will be on the service 3 – 5 or 11, it could be either an Atlantean or a Weymann bodied Daimler Fleetline. One Titan from the Newcastle fleet has survived LVK 123 and is in its original 1948 blue livery, but bearing in mind the number that were produced, it seems that not that many are still around.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
02/12/14 – 05:29
Ronnie, I think that this photograph was taken before May 1965 when the trolleybus services along Jesmond Road were converted to motorbus operation. I always thought that there was something magical and special about the cypher A1 and name ‘Great North Road’. Over the years the A1 has had quite a few different routes through Tyneside and the numbers now allocated to former sections of the route give few clues to their former glory.
Another from Newcastle City Libraries archives. From the caption at the bottom, the location is West Clayton Street Newcastle, which is literally just round the corner from the Central Station. The date is 1952; the buses are lined up ready to depart for Gosforth Park Racecourse, about three miles north of the City. I suspect it would be on the day of the Northumberland Plate, know as the Pitman’s Derby, this race meeting always attracts huge crowds, and is run on the last Saturday in June. An interesting line up, headed by an all Leyland Titan PD2/3 from 1950, NVK 304; then two MCCW bodied Daimlers, the one in front is one of the 1947/8 KVK registered CV6G series, the second could be from the same batch, or it could be a 1938 FVK registered CW5G. Next in line, looks like a 1947/8 Roe bodied Daimler CV6G, they were also KVK registrations. Looking at the outward swoop of the lower body panels, my guess would be that number five is a 1946 Weymann bodied AEC Regent II. I can’t make out enough detail to have a stab at the rest.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
23/12/14 – 17:12
A very appetising line-up! Never realised until recently that Newcastle had had any Birmingham-style MCCW-bodied Daimlers. How did that come about? One of my very favourite bus designs, by the way.
Ian T
06/01/15 – 16:24
I believe Newcastle Transport was desperate for new stock, and Daimler and Metro-Cammell could offer quick delivery. The bodies were to Birmingham spec, including the single aperture front destination blind, though livery and upholstery were to Newcastle standard. They were delivered in the blue and cream livery. There’s a photo of one in the later yellow and cream livery but with its Birmingham style indicators in Alan Townsin’s Best Best of British Buses volume 11, post war Daimlers. The destination blinds must have been changed to the standard Newcastle pattern quite quickly. I’ve seen a photo of one on Facebook dated 1950 so,fitted.
Richard S
06/01/15 – 16:26
There is a follow-up to this post with pictures at this link.
