We don’t seem to have any colour pictures of Oldham buses on the site, so I am submitting these two shots, taken early in PTE days. By the time these pictures were taken, the Oldham livery had been further simplified by the elimination of the red stripe above the lower deck windows. Oldham used a distinctive shade of red that was usually described as “pommard” after the wine of that name. PBU 947, No. 447, was a PD2/30 of the 1958 batch of 24 with Roe bodies, though my understanding is that the seating was H37/28R. Perhaps these buses were reseated at some stage.
Copyright Roger Cox
NBU 500, No 400, was a member of a batch of 20 PD2/20 delivered in 1957 with Roe H33/27R bodies. The year 1965 was a significant one to Oldham. In that year a Ministry of Transport inspection led to the discovery of major mechanical faults on 97 buses, and the Corporation had to hire in around 45 buses from sympathetic neighbouring municipalities.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
04/03/12 – 17:08
Good to see Oldham represented again and with typical vehicles – Roe-bodied Leylands. If these pictures are taken in SELNEC days it must be early 1970 as the fleet very rapidly lost the coat-of-arms and fleetname upstairs, all had lost these by July 1970. 447 got repainted orange and white in January 1971 and was the last Roe-bodied PD2 to be so treated. Unlike the earlier examples it didn’t receive a full overhaul and only lasted until July 1973. 400 was renumbered 5300 in October 1970 but despite running in increasingly shabby pommard and cream it outlasted 447, being withdrawn in March 1974. Your photos allow the two batches to be contrasted. I could usually identify with some confidence which batch an oncoming vehicle was from but even now I struggle to be able to explain why. One difference visible here which worked as a general rule was the painted ventilators but like all good rules it had exceptions. Other differences were the staircase window which was never fitted to the PBUs but quite a few NBUs lost this feature. When new the NBUs had pull-down half-drop ventilators which were a disaster. These were replaced by sliders which had a much thinner bottom rail than on the PBUs, making them less conspicuous. You can just about make out the vestigial framework for the half-drops on 400, which remained in situ. The 59 was a joint Manchester and Oldham service from Manchester via Middleton to Oldham and Shaw. Taking 74 minutes from one end to the other it was certainly Oldham’s longest (in running time) route and I think Manchester’s as well.
David Beilby
04/03/12 – 17:26
I rather liked the company name/coat of arms positioned where it is on these buses. I have to say, I don’t think that I’ve ever seen a ‘tin-front’ like these. Was it unique to these vehicles or Roe?
Chris Hebbron
05/03/12 – 07:42
The 59 was an incredibly circuitous route which left Manchester in almost the exact opposite direction to Oldham and Shaw which are north east of the city. It headed north west towards Bury along Cheetham Hill Road then turned towards Middleton via Heaton Park and Rhodes. It had almost ‘boxed the compass’ before it got to Middleton. The no. 2 from Stevenson Square to Newhey, which passed Shaw (Wrens Nest) the eventual terminus of the 59 would do the journey in around 40 minutes I would guess. In fairness to the 59 it was not intended to attract end to end passengers but provided very useful inter-urban links across areas to the north of Manchester. To answer Chris the unusual ‘tin front’ on these PD2’s was a retro-fit by Oldham after a few years in service. They were delivered with the standard Leyland BMMO front but sometime in the early 1960’s (from memory and I would bow to confirmation on this) the centre grill sections were replaced with the design shown in the photographs. In my view it was a great improvement. I think the replacement section was a glass-fibre moulding but again would welcome a second opinion on this. The failure by the MOT Inspectors of such a large slice of Oldham’s fleet caused quite a stir at the time and was widely covered in the ordinary (non-transport)press and media. In today’s blame culture I am sure heads would have been called for. I don’t ever recall the press reporting anybody at Oldham ‘falling on his sword’. Does anyone know if there any such actions taken?
Philip Halstead
05/03/12 – 07:44
This was Oldham’s own GRP (fibreglass being a trade name) front which they developed. The original one was flat like the standard BMMO grille but I suspect this was not stiff enough so the slight protrusion was added. Oldham were quite active in GRP moulding and also did the side pieces, the design of that varying over the years. The revised front grille became quite universal. From recollection the last bus with a BMMO grille was 453, withdrawn in 1970. They had been in the minority for some years before then.
David Beilby
05/03/12 – 07:45
The “kidney” window in the staircase panel on Roe bodies, which I believe was part of the safety staircase designed by Leeds City Transport general manager Mr. W. Vane Morland in 1935, was a common feature on many Roe bodies up to about 1954 but seemed to fall out of favour after then, so it is a bit of a surprise to see Oldham Corporation still taking them as late as 1957. Does anybody know if these where the last ones built or did other operators have any delivered later?
Eric
05/03/12 – 07:46
The tin fronts were Oldham-built replacements for damaged originals, and for my money a great improvement on them. Combined with the Roe body they even make the pommard livery look respectable, which is quite an achievement as it was not generally well-liked.
Peter Williamson
05/03/12 – 07:48
Beautiful Roe bodies and a distinctive livery, but I think I preferred their neighbours in blue at Ashton. I think you are correct, Chris – but I think it was an Oldham rather than Roe front. PS …..see previous black and white post of 451 with standard Leyland tin front!
David Oldfield
05/03/12 – 12:33
Eric, I think you’re correct. Sheffield’s 1955 Regent IIIs had the window but the 1957 and 1958 PD2s didn’t and neither didn’t any subsequent Roe bodies.
David Oldfield
05/03/12 – 17:53
Leeds first AEC Regent Vs of 1956-57 had the staircase window and were the last Leeds buses delivered with this feature. In the mid fifties all Leeds MCW bodies also had a staircase window this was a narrow slit like vertical affair.
Chris Hough
06/03/12 – 08:22
Strange to say, the staircase window reappeared in Sheffield with the front entrance Regent Vs, “Sheffield” Park Royals and then the “Sheffield/PRV standard” 33′ Atlanteans and Fleetlines – but all with tinted glass.
David Oldfield
06/03/12 – 12:27
Ah, the tinted glass would be the then modern equivalent of ‘decency boards’ protecting the modesty of Victorian/Edwardian ladies. The offside straight staircase’d London General/Transport ST’s and later LT’s had glazed windows down the whole length of the offside when built, but, over the years, the rearmost pane was replaced by a painted pane. One imagines voyeurs waiting opposite bus stops for the sight of a trim ankle, or more titillating, a calf! It all seems so amusing nowadays.
Chris Hebbron
06/03/12 – 15:22
Am I right in saying in connection with the staircase window was the Roe safety staircase. This had a flat landing halfway up the staircase which in theory would prevent someone rolling in to the road. Did anybody get saved by this?
Philip Carlton
07/03/12 – 08:40
The PBU batch of Leyland Titan buses (419-462) were distinctive in that they carried the Leyland winged badge until repainted in 1964/5. The number plates were located higher up the original tin fronts (above air vents) than on earlier batches also. The Leyland/Roe vehicles (429-452) featured decorative beading, painted white, aside the two upper red stripes which resulted in slightly narrower ones than on, for example, the 388-407 (NBU batch) To the critical eye, another distinctive features were angled front saloon windows, rather than horizontal as on 388-407. The side window vents were polishes aluminium which also made them stand out as mentioned earlier by David Beilby.
D. Butterworth
07/03/12 – 15:17
There is always so much to learn on this site. Until Chris Hebbron mentioned the image of a voyeur trying to catch the sight of a calf mounting the stairs of an ST/LT, I had never appreciated that London Transport permitted young farm animals to use the upper saloon.
John Stringer
07/03/12 – 16:12
Well, John, if they wanted to smoke they would have to, wouldn’t they?!
Stephen Ford
07/03/12 – 16:53
The correct name for the livery is Pommard and Devon Cream, and was introduced in 1966, after the very short lived ‘Blue’ livery experiment with NBU 502 (Fleet No 402). Mention is made of the positioning of the Fleet Name and Crest. This was done as a cost saving measure to save replacements (of the crest) when accidents occurred to the lower side panels and replacements had to be re-fixed. I also remember that in the Paint Shop (always an interesting place, supervised by the Foreman Sam Bardsley), that there were replacement lower deck panels painted and varnish ready for quick replacement by the body men. Again this was so vehicles spent less time off the road after lower panel accident damage. Mention is made of the Ministry of Transport fleet check in 1965. I started at OCPTD in 1968, as Junior Works Clerk and the ‘Fleet Check’ was still being talked about even then. Many of the systems which I worked on had been brought about after that, and procedures in the workshops and the Depot had been tightened up. Philip says ‘did heads roll’ well YES they did, but it was never made public, I will not name names even though it is now 47 years ago, they could still be around.
Stephen Howarth
07/03/12 – 16:57
The Roe bodied PBU’s also had a more upright front profile when viewed side on than the NBU’s. Obviously this was necessary to get the extra row of four seats in to give 37 seats on the upper deck against the 33 on the NBU’s.
Philip Halstead
08/03/12 – 07:09
Nice ones, John & Stephen F. My comment was even more amusing than I thought! And, Stephen H, thx for the reason behind the fleet name/crest not being on the lower panels – a sensible variance.
Chris Hebbron
09/03/12 – 17:25
Interestingly, around 1970 the Leyland PD2’s reappeared on certain trunk/express routes in all day service having earlier been relegated to other duties in preference to Leyland Atlantean operation. There are photographs available of 402 – NBU 502 (the blue bus) and 430, PBU 930 on service 9 (Ashton to Rochdale) and Leylands 402 and 437 on the OTS route- Hollinwood Lees/Grotton. The previous years (from 1965 had seen Atlantean operation only on the O/T (27/28) routes, I seem to remember. I have photographs of 461 and forward entranced Leyland PD3 101 on the 98 (Manchester to Waterhead) service around 1970, after a long period dominated by the Atlanteans. Indeed when 131-135 were obtained in February 1966 they were put to work immediately on this route, quickly followed by 136-147 later that year. In April 1970 our local route (21) was converted to OPO with the arrival of dual door Atlanteans 183 to 187. Twelve months later Selnec liveried 188 to 199 arrived and many of these buses could be noted on the route besides the earlier Atlanteans 178 to 182. This marked the end of the PD2’s on the route. For some reason 191 and 192 ended up in Ashton bus depot! Obviously transferred on delivery, but they later appeared in Oldham.
D. Butterworth
15/03/12 – 09:30
Further to my previous comments regarding the Leyland Atlanteans which replaced the PD2s on many routes, the numbers allocated were 5183 – 5199 in the SELNEC, (Southern) Fleet allocation, which would have been OLDHAM’S 183 – 199.
D. Butterworth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/09/12 – 19:53
I was a driver on Oldham Buses from 1961 & through the 60’s, was quite surprised by photo’s and comments, particularly the 1965 shot after the ministry man came into do his worse. Interestingly, we then drove many buses far worse than our own. The Blue Livery was sponsored by the Egg Marketing Board. Which I believe were given that “Go to work on an Egg” advert printed on the 2 buses with the fleet numbers 401 & 402. The then manager Harry Taylor flirted with idea of the livery but it was unsuccessful. Then the Atlanteans, Selnec etc etc. I moved on to other things and some time later was a HGV & PSV examiner based at Heywood HGV Centre. A local firm had bought 3 PD1 fleet numbers 264 & I think 266 & 268. Not the easiest to teach on. Happy days!
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1953 Leyland PD2/12 Roe HBB56R
Westwood Bus Station, Scarborough, photographed whilst on a family holiday in 1966. In the foreground 1953 Roe-bodied Leyland PD2/12 608 (NRH 219) is loading passengers for Bridlington, whilst behind lurks 1963 front-entrance Bridgemaster 749 (3749 RH). Opposite, laying over before snarling its way to Driffield, is 1960 Metro-Cammell-bodied Tiger Cub 689 (6689 KH). What would Health & Safety officialdom make nowadays of buses loading passengers whilst parked with their off sides against the platforms, I wonder? 608 was withdrawn in 1969, and 749 in 1976 – both passing to North’s, the dealer, and later for scrap. 689 was withdrawn in 1972 and fared a little better, being sold on by North’s along with the rest of the batch to Irish operator Sureline of Lurgan. Happy Days! Now where did I park my time-machine?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
05/04/12 – 06:50
Your comment about buses loading with their off sides against the platforms reminds me of Lower Mosley Street Bus Station in Manchester. In particular I remember the evening rush hour, when elderly North Western Atkinsons (inter alia) which had been sitting in the depot all day, would sit there with their smoky exhausts blowing straight into a waiting room full of people.
Peter Williamson
05/04/12 – 09:26
The ordeal of waiting passengers being nearly asphyxiated by exhaust fumes is by no means confined to bus stations these days – since the widespread adoption of one way streets the same experience can now be freely enjoyed in most towns and cities, especially when traffic is at a standstill in peak periods.
Chris Youhill
05/04/12 – 09:28
Oh, John, please leave room for me in your time machine! In fact, it would be best if it could take the form of a Beverly Bar ‘decker, (or even a fleet of them), to make room for all the readers of this site who would want to join you. (Bags me a seat upstairs). Loading offside parked buses was hardly the best arrangement, and I guess there must have been accidents, but all the staff would have known the potential for them and would have been sensible enough to take proper care, I’m sure. On the question of exhaust fumes, (Peter Ws comment), we rarely used the Westwood Bus Station, but the joy, as a lad, of drinking in EY diesel fumes at Bridlington bus station, (especially after a shower), is one of my most cherished childhood memories.
Roy Burke
Myriad were the diesel flavoured Bus Station/Depots in the Heyday. Without thinking – Kingston LT; Brixham (and other) Devon General. (Name your own). I have a great love for the Yorkshire Coast – especially Scarborough – and agree that indigo and primrose rules, but give me STD cream and blue, SUT red and grey and CCT green and cream. I may be prejudiced, but I will keep the flag flying for South Yorkshire and North Derbyshire. [NB, I’m too young to remember classic EMMS livery!]
David Oldfield
05/04/12 – 18:11
It always struck me that bus station bays from which buses have to reverse out (standard these days) represent a far more hazardous arrangement than the drive through type. Strange that it’s allowed, bearing in mind that reversing a bus at all seems to be frowned upon everywhere else. Mounting a back-loader from a pavement on wrong side wasn’t really a big deal, provided the conductor kept watch. Yes please, save me a place too John – front nearside downstairs if possible – a good balance of view ahead and aural delight.
Stephen Ford
05/04/12 – 18:13
Gentlemen.. please may I have a seat on your time machine? I share your memories of the “aroma” of diesel fumes which always signalled the start of another adventure..a ride on a a previously unseen bus to tick off in my Ian Allan book was the best! A warm, sunny day gave the best effect. Then I also fondly recall the excitement of riding on brand new, first day out Bristol KSW/Lodekka’s etc…the inside filled with the scent of new paint, new upholstery and sometimes the engine was still “running in” so emitted thin blue smoke from the exhaust to confirm it was Brand New! Upstairs so clean and bright before being ruined by a million Woodbines..my mother would never ride upstairs except when the bus was new or freshly repainted. It’s drifting from the subject but John’s simple picture brings back lots of memories from 1966. Thank you.
Richard Leaman
06/04/12 – 07:39
Re my posting under the recent Hebble Photo and offside loading – I hadn’t considered the exhaust fumes – however I suppose it softened us all up for the top deck smokers’ fug !
Farmer G
06/04/12 – 07:40
As a conductor and driver on EYMS in 1966/7 we normally arrived 30mins before departure then went across road for a cuppa only to arrive back at the bus to find it had magically filled with passengers and yes the platform was way high when parked that way. However in 1967 they got us to park the other way round much better for the passengers but the driver had a hard pull right back onto the road no power steering in them days, but very enjoyable days
Ken Wragg
06/04/12 – 07:41
John What a superb photograph! One question – 608 appears to have a raised advert panel between the two upper cream bands; was it a very early illuminated advert?
Bob Gell
06/04/12 – 07:41
Comments about exhaust fumes reminds me of as a teenager in the 40s and early 50s in Killermont Street bus station in Glasgow waiting for the East Kilbride 70 or 71 Central SMT, being subjected to the fumes of the Edinburgh SMT`s elderly TD5s in the next platform.
Jim Hepburn
06/04/12 – 07:42
I’m in complete agreement with Stephen Ford about bus stations which require reversing movements to exit. I don’t think this model has to be adhered to because South Yorkshire PTE, to it’s everlasting credit, has built excellent drive through stations at Sheffield, Meadowhall, Rotherham and Doncaster. In Derby, the City Council has provided a reverse off bus station which is perhaps the worst example of it’s kind in England. The vehicle area is insufficient which causes conflicting movements and vehicles entering are continually blocked by those trying to exit. There have been many minor scrapes since it opened but it’s new and therefore criticism is not allowed!
Chris Barker
06/04/12 – 09:25
I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen Ford and Chris B – if I had my way “reversing off the stand” bus stations would be banished. The “state of the art” one in Leeds has been the scene of many disasters since it opened some twenty years ago. The tiny one in Otley is similarly hazardous. I have personally experienced years of difficulty in the Leeds one, where our stands 5/6 had appalling lack of available view when reversing on left lock – fast incoming vehicles (speed limit routinely ignored by many) could easily disappear from view as they swept through a right hand near U turn. Another really unbelievable feature is that intending passengers sit or stand in their admittedly comfy concourse behind glass windows just waiting for an out of control vehicle to ram the frontage – this has happened at least twice in Leeds, and the subsequently installed “crash bars” would be of limited effect in a serious case.
Chris Youhill
06/04/12 – 15:27
Chris Y, this brings to mind the mutually known, erstwhile Vicar Lane bus station in Leeds, where West Yorkshire and Samuel Ledgard used to perform similar reversals. However, the fundamental difference was the presence of the conductor on the back platform giving two resounding blasts of his/her Acme Thunderer to signal “all’s well”. Not a guarantee of safety, of course, as passengers would often invade the road space to make a last minute jump onto the bus.
Paul Haywood
06/04/12 – 15:28
For those who relish the Scarborough Scene in the relatively recent past, there are some cracking photos to be found at the following link //www.focustransport.org.uk
John Darwent
06/04/12 – 15:28
The Wakefield one is just the same, Chris Y. It has always reminded me of that famous scene out of “Airplane”. They need proper buffers! Reverting to smells- not the smell of exhaust, but hot engines: a Daimler CVD6 at North Bridge in Doncaster with its engine side access open (as often) & oil everywhere- a sweet smell which was almost intoxicating… and talking of North Bridge, the drivers had (as I have said before) to thread their way through to the exit and then perform a u-turn across the old A1!
Joe
07/04/12 – 07:04
Yes Paul, I remember very well the entertaining presentations at Vicar LANE – the low wall adjoining the street was hit so often that it was eventually replaced by simple columns and “draped” chains. At certain “ad hoc” times a spare conductor would be around to help in reversing One man/lady buses off the stands. One priceless experience must be related here. Within days of the Ledgard takeover an elderly former Yeadon (Moorfield) Depot driver was having as much trouble persuading his unfamiliar (and detested by him) Bristol Lodekka in going backwards as he’d had in encouraging it forwards between Otley and Leeds. He was a comical raconteur, and given to priceless dramatic exaggerations, and told us of this encounter with authority :- JY – “I were just revussin’ off t’ stand when a yappy little ****** in a shiny ‘at rapped on t’ mudguard and snapped “I want thy number !!” “Oh, sez I, and why the (censored) duz tha’ want my number.” “Tha’s just knocked wall down sez ‘e.” “Oh ‘av a ?? – says I, well I’d just like thee to tell us this – If I’ve knocked thi’ wall down, wot wer that long ‘aired **** at back wi’ t’ whistle doooin’ ?”
Chris Youhill
07/04/12 – 07:05
East Yorkshire’s Westwood bus station was a charming place made even more captivating by the company’s blue/cream/white buses (and the trips to visit my two great-aunts in Cayton who incidentally would never use the competing services of United unless they absolutely had to!!). The site is now a Tesco store. Ken Wragg mentions that in 1967 loading at Westwood was changed from the format shown in the photo so that bus doors were then against the platform. I recall in that, in the earlier part of the 1960s, the buses loaded this way (with their doors against the platform) so for some reason a change was made and subsequently changed back. The site was perched on the edge of the ground falling away towards a large school and, as can be seen in the photograph, the loading area sloped. To the left of the building there was a narrower strip of concreted parking road at a lower level than that seen in the photo.
David Slater
07/04/12 – 07:07
I guess Chris Y will have worked at some time on the S.Ledgard Bradford – Harrogate route. Doubtless he will remember the reversing routine in Menston Village. The Bus would turn right into Burley Lane and then the conductor would dismount and check the crossroads was clear – give two blasts on his Acme Thunderer and watch the bus back round the blind corner – jump back on and the bus would pull in to the stop in front of the shops. If I recall it was at 10 minutes past from Harrogate and 40 minutes past from Bradford.
Gordon Green
07/04/12 – 15:42
Interesting recollections indeed Gordon and I worked at Otley depot so our only participation in the Bradford – Harrogate service consisted of two Monday to Friday “Workmen’s” duplicates. The morning one was at 07:20 from Menston to Otley and at teatime 17:33 from Otley to White Cross. The Menston Village reversing that you mention was of course involved in both cases. The main Bradford to Harrogate service (the Company’s longest route) was operated entirely by Bradford depot and had been inherited from B & B Tours – to the very end of Ledgard’s it remained referred to by staff and passengers as “The B & B” – but officially within the Company after the founder’s death in 1952 as S.Ledgard (Bradford) Ltd. Departure times were actually 10 past the hour from Bradford, and 30 minutes past from Harrogate. Our lowly position in the order of things in the mighty West Yorkshire Road Car empire was made clear in Harrogate Bus Station – we departed from a different stop to the West Yorkshire number 53 service, our stand being labelled “Bradford – S.Ledgard.” Perhaps this was a little chagrin from the WY as we were the only ones to serve Menston Village in its entirety.
Chris Youhill
07/04/12 – 15:48
The talk of odd loading procedures reminds me of Brighton’s Pool Valley bus station where vehicles were reversed on to the stands, fine with back loaders but with the advent of front or forward entrances passengers had to walk on the roadway and negotiate the steps from there. The reversing was supervised by conductors while such existed, after the advent of OMO ex conductors were employed to supervise these manoeuvres which ensured accidents were few and far between. The whole bus station was in fact a public road open to other vehicles also buses travelling west had to cross the very busy main promenade difficult in the summer season, especially with a PD3 Queen Mary with the numerous blind spots resulting from their full fronts. I feel somewhat of a lone voice for the south of the country on the site but thoroughly enjoy the chatter and the shared knowledge that is available so easily.
Diesel Dave
07/04/12 – 17:59
Chris Y – the times I quoted were in fact the Menston times – from Bradford the Ledgard at 10 mins past completed a 15 min afternoon service from Bradford to Harrogate – Service 53 via Otley at 25 and 55 and Service 51 via Yeadon Moor at 40 plus short workings to Otley on the 53 at 05 and 40. In addition there was the 50 Otley via Yeadon hourly at 10 mins past ! These days you are hard pressed to find a bus from Menston to Bradford as I found out recently when leaving my car for service. Believe it or not there was also an hourly 76 Harrogate – Skipton between Otley and Harrogate. You beat me to it with the banishment in Harrogate Bus Station – about half way down amongst Wetherby’s I recall. However SL were permitted use of the Harrogate stand at Chester Street next to the Green Hut – for about 2 minutes before departure ! One final bit of memorabilia – there was for many years an abandoned red B & B Tours timetable case fixed to the wall on the Bradford bound side of the road at Lister Park Gates at the bottom of Oak Lane – it was certainly there in the 1950’s and possibly longer.
Farmer G
08/04/12 – 06:42
All this talk about Westwood bus station in Scarborough, reminded me about some official photographs I have when it was first opened, you can tell from these, that it was built on a slope. Also of interest regarding this bus station was the use of EYMS’s 653 DBT553, 541 LAT69 & 674 VKH674 over the years, in use as left luggage stores, parked on the lower part of the slope.
Mike Davies
08/04/12 – 06:46
Your ‘priceless’ story, Chris Y, reminds me of my square-bashing time at RAF West Kirby (Wirral). We had a lad there who lived in Huddersfield and would, in his parlance, “…go over yon t’Pennines in t’cooch.’ whenever he was able to! And, Diesel Dave, you are not alone and I do recall Pool Valley on my occasional visits from Southsea to Brighton, on one occasion on a Leyland PD2/Beadle, lovely buses.
Chris Hebbron
08/04/12 – 10:59
More fascinating memories Farmer G. I have to confess that I’d no idea of the extremely even intervals scheduled from Bradford on the various services. Interestingly, the 50 service was also integrated in a similar manner with Samuel Ledgard at the Otley end. The West Yorkshire 50 service left at 05 past the hour while the Ledgard buses (Yeadon Depot, the Moorfield) left Otley at 25 past (via White Cross) and 45 past via The Chevin, thereby providing an even twenty minute interval service between Otley, Guiseley, Yeadon and Rawdon. I had a wry chuckle when you wrote “Believe it or not” about the 76 service from Otley to Harrogate. When I worked at West Yorkshire’s Ilkley depot the 76 was my favourite route and I swapped to be on there when ever possible. It was a magnificent five hour round trip from Skipton via Ilkley, Otley, Harrogate, Wetherby, and Boston Spa to Tadcaster. So enjoyable was the delightful country journey that one felt guilty, well almost !!, at being paid for the ride. It was also moderately to extremely busy and was therefore no shrinking violet in the revenue stakes. Five “cars” were required for the hourly service, these being provided in varying proportions by Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate and Wetherby depots – on one weekday journey the Skipton depot car was operated by a Grassington depot crew – I daresay with Ordnance Survey map to assist with their brave foray into the big wide World !! I don’t unfortunately remember the B & B timetable case at Oak Lane – if I had I think I may have been willing to risk an appearance before the Bradford Bench in order to acquire and hide such a priceless artefact by night.
Chris Youhill
08/04/12 – 11:00
Your comments on Pool Valley, Diesel Dave and Chris H brought back a few memories, because I was Traffic Superintendent, Brighton, in 1968. You are absolutely right, Dave about the confusing relationship between the bus station and the adjoining public roads. Southdown did not own any part of the road way, and control over the area reserved for buses was most strictly exercised by traffic wardens. I once received a very strong warning from a traffic warden when I was at Pool Valley on business and briefly parked a Southdown traffic car, (a Morris 1100), in the far left bus aisle. Well, one of our 1100s had a PSV licence, so we could carry passengers in it, (e.g for missed express services etc). Being the arrogant and cocky so-and-so I then was, I made sure that the next time I wanted to park a company car at Pool Valley for a few minutes I used that particular car, and that the same traffic warden was on duty. As the guy walked up to me, I gained immense glee by saying to him as I swept past, ‘Before you start, mate, that’s a bus. If you don’t believe me, look in the window.’ Stupid and immature, no doubt, but it made my day – a rare event for me at Southdown.
Roy Burke
08/04/12 – 16:12
I knew this 1959 photo might come in useful eventually. Apologies for the poor quality and alignment (missing the registration number etc) but I presume this is DBT 553 acting as a Left Luggage Office referred to by Mike Davies. I must have climbed down into the garden of the then Boys’ High School (in 1976 becoming the Stephen Joseph Theatre where Alan Ayckborne would premier many of his famous comedy plays, before they moved to the present Odeon theatre site).
Paul Haywood
11/04/12 – 15:43
Maybe I’m a bit over sensitive, but I think that inadvertently I may have done myself a minor disservice in my previous comment, in an attempt to keep the comment short. I wouldn’t want to imply that parking company cars in the bus aisles at Pool Valley, (by me or anyone else for that mater), was a commonplace activity; quite the opposite. It was a rare event that happened only for urgent reasons, and then for a very short time. Controlling traffic around and in the bus station was vital, and we appreciated the efforts of the traffic wardens, who kindly allowed our temporary parking because they knew we’d be involved in keeping the buses running, and didn’t abuse the latitude they gave us. Similarly, instead my phrase that I ‘made sure’ that the same guy who’d chewed me off previously was on duty again, perhaps I should have said that I’d seen he was on duty when I was at Pool Valley earlier that day, and although I did deliberately use the car with the PSV licence, that was only because both 1100s were available. I may have been stupid and immature, but I wasn’t, I think, downright cretinous.
Roy Burke
16/04/12 – 07:27
I’m going to stick up for “drive-in, reverse-out” bus stations. Provided pedestrians are kept well away from the reversing area, this layout provides much better passenger facilities, which can be concentrated in a single concourse. This also helps personal security, especially at night, and, more important, passengers do not have to cross busways to reach their bus on a separate island. Compare Burnley, Leeds, Huddersfield and Wakefield with Wigan, Bolton, Bury and Rochdale. Someone got run over not long ago in Bury while crossing between buses. I also recall a fatality in Worcester bus station, another of the drive-through type, when a driver was run over.
Geoff Kerr
03/05/12 – 09:21
Just a follow up to Scarborough bus stations, I have sent some photos of the the three EYMS buses used as left luggage stores at Westwood bus station.
653 – DBT 553 was the first and was in use as a luggage store from 2/57 until 11/65 when it passed to Colbro (dealer) for scrap.
541 – LAT 69 was next replacing 653 in 1/66, 541 passed to United AC 3/72 when they took control of Westwood and continued as a luggage store until being sold for preservation 1/75 it still survives today, but in store somewhere local.
674 – VKH 674 was used next, along side 541, being converted in 7/69, this also passed to United ownership with the bus station in 3/72 and was in use until 1/75 when it passed into preservation, and was a well known vehicle at many rallies around the country, it is now in store along with 541 both out of use. All three vehicles had their seats removed and wooden luggage racks fitted , 541 also had doors fitted on the platform area.
Mike Davies
13/08/14 – 14:43
I hope I’m not repeating something someone else has commented on but as a school girl, I travelled to Beverley High school from Hessle. The buses were navy and cream and had, so I was told, a specially domed roof so that they could get through Beverley Bar. For the most of my school life we caught a bus at 9 am arriving in Beverley around 9.40, missing Assembly! Apparently this was because there were not enough buses to go round at 8 am. I am currently watching the documentary on EYMS and am delighted with the series, especially as I watched Rodney Hebden who was a great friend of my brother. We all loved the livery colour and wondered why and when it changed to its modern day colours.
Meg
22/09/14 – 07:30
I came across an article in the Commercial Motor in April 1957 which has a description of the bus station. It states it was designed mainly for holiday traffic being used by four services during the year. the Hull service jumps from hourly to half-hourly in summer and has extensive duplication. (as a schoolboy traveller to relatives outside Scarborough at Newby, I can vouch for that). On a peak Saturday in summer 1956 there were 81 vehicle departures, 52 being duplicates on this service alone! The other services had 22 departures, 7 being duplicates. Therefore the design provided more parking space than is usual. It is formed by two concreted areas at different levels with a concrete access ramp at each end, the lower level being exclusively for parking. Passengers are picked up at two points on a single platform. facilities include a waiting room, inquiry and left luggage offices, staff rest rooms and toilets. A reinforced concrete canopy extends over the platform. So many buses in blue and primrose – if only we had digital cameras inn those days.
Malcolm J Wells
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/10/16 – 07:20
John Stringer mentions the horror today’s Health & Safety people would have with offside loading/unloading in bus stations. They’d have a heart attack with the forecourt at Morden Tube Terminus. No better than a large supermarket carpark, with most queues forming behind concrete base “permanent” temporary bus stops, these huge queues had no protection from errant approaching buses as a result of driver carelessness or vehicle faults. Yet, I’m not aware of any accidents ever at this place of heaving humanity!
This photo illustrates the frequent shortage of London Transport’s lowbridge buses to serve the two red routes in Central Area, the 230 and 127. Here, 17-mile-distant Godstone Garage’s displaced-by-RLH’s green lowbridge STL2229, shows its wartime origins with the lack of a rear blind display indicator. On a foul 29 Mar 52, it is working from Central Area’s Merton Garage, on the 127 at Morden Tube Station forecourt. (the route plate stencil is visible on the back window), with STL1630 on the 118 and an RT on the 93. Photo by a probably frozen Alan Cross.
Chris Hebbron
22/10/16 – 09:42
Chris H’s description of the conditions at Morden Station reminds me of the abominable Wellington Street Coach Station in Leeds. Particularly as vehicle sizes grew its area was woefully inadequate. At one time there was no shelter but eventually an enclosed concrete alley was built across the full rear wall – any mechanical failure or driver misjudgement would have meant the victims within would have been crushed and showered with concrete and glass – mercifully this never happened. Meanwhile in the main open area – no bus lanes, just a terrifying “free for all”, hundreds of passengers waited to load and alight while inspectors brusquely ordered them to “get back.” Its closure couldn’t come soon enough.
A couple of weeks ago I commented on the Pommard and Devon Cream livery introduced in 1966, after the very short lived “Blue” livery experiment with NBU 502 (Fleet No 402). Well here it is, seen in a rather grubby state, in Union Street, operating on the Service “A” Greenacres/Bar Gap Road – Limeside (Laburnum Road) via Chapel Road. The service was renumbered “18” in the April (1st) 1968 renumbering exercise. The bus was transferred to SELNEC and became 5302 in their numbering scheme.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
10/04/12 – 19:45
I may be wrong but I seem to recall that this bus had a yellow band between the two shades of blue instead of the white band shown in the photograph at some time during the experiment. Can anybody confirm? I used to see it on the 9 in Rochdale fairly frequently.
Philip Halstead
11/04/12 – 06:08
This blue livery reminds me of the equally abysmal colour scheme of Cambus of Cambridge, which blended in astonishingly well with the Fenland fogs.
Roger Cox
11/04/12 – 06:09
The original scheme was more like you describe, but the yellow was the “Roe” waistrail and all above was light blue. It looked quite different! It seems to have been changed quite quickly.
David Beilby
11/04/12 – 16:00
Would that, Roger, be the livery of white with a variety of horizontal stripes of various blue hue? It put me off visiting that area again for some twenty years!!
Chris Hebbron
12/04/12 – 05:54
Chris, the original Cambus attempt at a livery was overall pale “Cambridge Blue” with cream trim, and the insipid effect made buses virtually invisible at dusk and in fog, as well as showing up the road dirt rather prominently. A variant for dual purpose vehicles had stripes of darker blue across the vehicle front and in a reverse slope along the sides. As you say, the visual effect was awful. Later, Cambus revised the bus livery to show a darker blue on the lower half of the vehicle, with the pale blue above, very similar in appearance to the Oldham experiment. When one remembers the inspired company liveries of the past – City of Oxford, Aldershot and District, Southdown, East Kent to name but a few – and the neat simple paint schemes of the ex Tilling group, plus the multiplicity of interesting municipal colours, the present day rash of garish garbs seem to be the end results of opium induced nightmares.
Roger Cox
13/04/12 – 06:15
Your so right, Roger. Even today, the most dignified liveries are the traditional ones. Thankfully, a few operators still respect that principle.
Chris Hebbron
13/04/12 – 17:23
I particularly enjoyed the description in the caption of Rotherham’s depot as being a ‘gloomy’ looking place. Sandwiched between the River Don on one side and the canal on the other, the Rawmarsh Road garage was prone to flooding in heavy rains, such that the inspection pits would sometimes fill with water, making it very gloomy indeed if you were trying to work in there. In PTE days, some of the fitters actually ‘acquired’ a rowing boat left behind by some contractors working on the river bank, and used it, painted in PTE coffee and cream (!), to row across to the fish and chip shop at lunch times! There was a set of steps leading down to the canal bank from the roadway, which rose up to pass over the railway alongside the garage, which were ideally placed from which to stand, with notebook and pencil, and watch the comings and goings of the Crossleys and Bristols in the yard, while the single-deck trolleys of Rotherham and Mexboro and Swinton swept by every few minutes on the road; from this schoolboy spotter’s point of view, it didn’t get much better.
Dave Careless
13/04/12 – 17:33
Copyright unknown.
I have found a photo of OCPTD NBU 502 in the ‘First’ blue livery with the yellow band, as mentioned by David Beilby. I’ll let you and your contributors decide which is the better livery of the 2 in the picture. I know which is my favourite. Note the Salford DD in the back ground hired in after the fleet check by the ‘Ministry Man’ in 1965, which dates the picture to late that year. Not my copyright, but I have had it in my collection for many years. No mention of the original photographer.
Stephen Howarth
14/04/12 – 07:08
That’s not a Salford Daimler, the photograph predates that affair. It’s one of two Liverpool Crossleys bought for spares by Oldham. The engine of one of them ended up in preserved Oldham Crossley 368.
David Beilby
16/04/12 – 07:34
The blue bus (402) took to the road in September 1963, but within a few weeks the livery was changed to the two shades of blue separated by a white band. I preferred the first version. The interior was unchanged – dark red trim and upholstery: a neighbour of mine said that she found this a disappointment!! Presumably a blue bus should have a blue interior, as (at the time) Rochdale Corporation’s buses had. This was also the case with Lytham St.Anne’s Corporation buses. 402 was one of three buses to receive the Pommard and cream livery in July 1966. The others were Met. Cam. 419 (PBU 919) and Northern Counties 457 (PBU 957). The whole fleet then received this livery up to 1970 with the exception of Roe PD1 246 (DBU 246, preserved); Roe Titan PD2 360 (FBU 647); and Roe Titan 450 (PBU 950); withdrawn in 1971.
D. Butterworth
19/02/15 – 10:38
I might be a bit late putting this comment in but as far as I remember Oldham 246 (DBU246) did receive the Pommard and cream livery. I was a passenger on her when she was the first bus of the morning on the number 8 (later 20) route from the top of Featherstall Road to Hollinwood back in 1966/1967.
Eric Langley
19/02/15 – 15:52
I can bring to mind only two examples where two shades of blue have looked good on buses because it is a feat that is difficult to pull off. West Brom’s post war double deck fleet, bar the rear engined buses, look absolutely superb with two shades of blue. The trick there was to keep them well apart. Manchester’s airport coaches, both single and double deck, carried the two shades well mainly because each complimented the other. There was a time in the mid 70’s when dissatisfaction by the public with the orange and white SELNEC livery led to a campaign to have the fleet in two tones of blue. It came to nought. Perhaps someone remembered the Oldham examples.
Orla Nutting
19/02/15 – 17:25
I wonder if the Manchester airport buses inspired the second Oldham scheme.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/02/15 – 07:39
Orla Nutting mentions that there was a proposal to have the SELNEC PTE fleet painted in to a two tone blue livery but nothing came of it, perhaps because of the ill fated Oldham scheme. It is worth mentioning here that Harry Taylor, ex Oldham Corporation General Manager was the Fleet Development Engineer of SELNEC. Enough said.
Stephen Howarth
20/02/15 – 07:41
Orla, I would agree with you about the West Bromwich livery, but I can think of a few more superb liveries using two shades of blue separated by cream. First, in my opinion one of the finest liveries ever – that of W. Alexander. Then there was South Yorkshire of Pontefract, and still with us – Delaine of Bourne.
John Stringer
20/02/15 – 07:42
Another two blues, Orla- South Yorkshire. Boat race colours. Chris Y will tell you they always looked good.
Joe
20/02/15 – 09:33
The South Yorkshire livery did work until someone was let loose with too much white paint, a spray gun and oversized lettering.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/02/15 – 11:32
Quite right, Phil. I was only thinking of the classic original South Yorkshire livery, the later soap powder box style was awful to my mind.
John Stringer
20/02/15 – 16:26
The Delaine, I’ll concede, impossible not to particularly when they’ve produced so many winning combinations of the two shades of blue over the years albeit the navy is almost black at times. Again, the application of white (or cream on some coaches) has enhanced the blues. South Yorkshire, I’m afraid not for me; undistinguished. I haven’t a problem with the colour blue it’s simply that the application of pale blues is a bit hit and miss (a bit like City is suppose) but more often miss. Rotherham, Rochdale (until nondescript cream ruled) Eastbourne & Swindon were about right with their blue and white/cream applications, Leigh and Middlesborough less so with their shade of blue and I was indifferent to Ashton’s so called peacock blue. Same for Bradford and Preston. Accrington’s was stunning with red and Birkenhead carried it off with pale blue with just the right amount of white/cream relief. There’s more but I won’t bore more and don’t get me going on two shades of green. BTW, I totally fail to understand why Oldham wanted a change in the first place. First it changed the rather nice plum colour to Pommard, a ghastly washed out colour, then this blue two tone (maybe the Gen Mgr had a Hillman Minx of this period).
Orla Nutting
20/02/15 – 16:27
D. Butterworth mentions that the whole Oldham Corporation fleet received the Pommard and Devon Cream livery, “with the exception of PD1, DBU 246……….” Attached is a picture of 246 in the ‘Grave Yard’ behind Oldham Depot displaying the aforementioned livery. I hope that this clarifies the situation.
Stephen Howarth
21/02/15 – 07:04
When I was at Oldham Harry Taylor the General Manager, had a Ford Corsair – Registration GBU 1. The Departmental staff car, was, however a Hillman Minx. It was painted black, which the Chauffeur kept immaculate, with red upholstery, with the Municipal crest on the doors.
Stephen Howarth
21/02/15 – 12:30
The Ashton Peacock Blue was reasonable but not a patch on the patriotic blue white and red that covered the fleet until late 1954. Oldham’s Pommard and Cream was just *~!**@& The Pommard looked like undercoat.
Phil Blinkhorn
Its either means a naughty word or Phil”s predictive typing has gone wonky again.
21/02/15 – 12:32
There were still quite a few vehicles in the older crimson and white livery when Oldham was subsumed into SELNEC. These fell into three categories: 1. Vehicles withdrawn when still in the crimson and white livery. Quite a lot of the older stock came into this category but one of the last “tin-fronts” 453 (PBU 953) was an early withdrawal and 425/6/50 followed later. There was also stock withdrawn before the formation of SELNEC that was still around, such as accident-damaged PD3 108 and four of the five Crossley-bodied PD2s. 2. Vehicles repainted into pommard and cream in the first few months before the new orange and white livery was implemented. Several “tin-front” PD2s came into this category but so, much to our surprise at the time, did one ex-Bolton, two ex-Sheffield PD2s and even more unexpected the last PD1/3 246 (DBU 246) referred to above. 3. Vehicles repainted directly into orange and white. Only one “tin-front” PD2 came into this category which was Metro-Cammell bodied 421 (PBU 921). The remainder were PD3s 101/2/4/5/7 and Tiger Cubs 111/2/6, the last of which was the final vehicle in service in crimson.
David Beilby
22/02/15 – 07:50
Absolutely nothing to do with buses but I rather liked the later BR DMU blue with white window surrounds colour scheme (the earlier overall blue looked dreadful)
Ian Wild
22/02/15 – 07:51
Why do operators see a need to change their image so radically? – especially when the change isn’t for the best. Whatever, as I’ve posted on another thread, last month I happened to see First’s Wright Eclipse(?) that is decked-out in heritage Pommard/cream . . . and I thought it looked superb (although that was against a back-drop of the current First livery).
Philip Rushworth
08/04/15 – 06:18
I agree with Philip Rushworth about the single deck Wright Eclipse bus looking good; a pity that a double deck version could not have been chosen -in the crimson lined livery – found on many of Oldham’s buses up until the mid 1960s.
David Butterworth
03/12/15 – 10:42
Citibus, one of those cheap and nasty firms which sprung up after deregulation had some Atlanteans in a similar 2 tone blue to the Oldham PD2
Todmorden Corporation and Joint Transport Committee 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/1 Leyland L27/26R
Scanning through the OBP Operators Index I just noticed a glaring omission. What – No Todmorden? How could this possibly be ? So here to immediately rectify the situation is their 1950 Leyland-bodied PD2/1 No. 5 departing Hebden Bridge for Burnley via Todmorden, in the Summer of 1969. It has just left its dismal terminus in Cheetham Street – behind the Hope Chapel in the background – where it will have connected with the inbound Halifax J.O.C. route 48/49 from Brighouse. It has then turned left into Crown Street, and it is here seen completing its next turn right into New Road, ready for a spirited run along the Calder Valley to ‘Tod’, then on through Cornholme, Portsmouth and the Cliviger Gorge and into the County of the Red Rose. Todmorden Joint Omnibus Committee was a staunch devotee of the Leyland marque, and for a period their fleet consisted solely of 38 PD2’s dating from between 1947 and 1951 – surely a fleet engineer’s dream? This one passed to the Calderdale J.O.C. in 1971 becoming their 352, but it was withdrawn shortly afterwards and passed to Mulley’s of Ixworth. They withdrew it in 1977 and sold it to Bickers of Coddenham – acting as dealers – from whom it passed to the Stella Artois brewery in Belgium (who I trust paid a Reassuringly Expensive price for it). Similar 1948 bus no. 2 survives in preservation, but does anyone know if No. 5 survived?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
19/04/12 – 06:31
Beautiful picture of a beautiful bus in beautiful condition. 19 years old? What are the chances of a Dennis or Volvo lasting that long, let alone in that condition?
David Oldfield
19/04/12 – 06:31
Superb photograph of a classic municipal bus. ‘Tod’ buses did a fair bit of moorland hill climbing as well as serving the valley bottom roads by the River Calder. They ran on the Burnley to Bacup route which climbed to a fair height at Weir, they then usually continued from Bacup back to ‘Tod’ over another mooorland summit by Temperley’s brickworks at Sharneyford. If that wasn’t enough for the venerable PD2’s they went over to Keighley via a bleak moorland run over Cock Hill. In later years Leopard saloons replaced the PD2’s and some of the routes were given up as being uneconomical.
Philip Halstead
19/04/12 – 06:32
Can I say what a super pic: in the usual Todmorden sunshine. Makes you wonder why anyone ran anything else, especially with the longevity of these bodies- and look how smart on 20 years. Is it true- have I read it here- that the low bridge in Todmorden was the depot entrance?
Joe
19/04/12 – 07:27
Joe, you’re right about the low bridge. Originally there was a bridge on the Burnley Road but that was rebuilt in the 1930s and it was the depot that remained the restriction. I liked Todmorden a lot and spent quite some time there riding and photographing in 1971 when it was Calderdale-owned but still of Todmorden character, with seven PD2s active. Given that the newest was twenty years old to say it was a surprise when two of them were repainted in Calderdale livery is something of an understatement. However, when you say the bus connected at Hebden Bridge with the Halifax 48/49 you highlight one of the problems with the Todmorden network which turned back at the “boundaries”. At both Hebden Bridge and Littleborough Summit, where Todmorden’s buses met those of Rochdale (later SELNEC), the twenty-minute frequency Todmorden service met a fifteen-minute frequency services, so good connections were not always assured. Todmorden had some good destinations, from the confusing Portsmouth to Mankinholes and Lumbutts, the latter being very scenic services. They were so keen on Leylands they even ran them to the Cross Lee estate!
The attached photograph shows six of the seven PD2s in the centre of Todmorden on 4th August 1971, a very fortunate combination. To think that the reason I was there was to publicise a vintage vehicle rally, namely the third Trans-Pennine Run! I’d rather just get on a service bus!
David Beilby
19/04/12 – 10:25
Oh, if only present day operators would realise that dignified liveries of this kind, whether tastefully restrained like Todmorden or rather brighter but equally “rich” like many others, do more to reinforce the owners’ stability and pride than all the expensive and totally meaningless “fairground or nursery school” offerings we have to endure today – one could hardly imagine the PD2s disguised as furniture vans and with virtually every window covered with a certain “stuff” which purports to allow perfect vision from within !! As regards the incredible longevity of the Leyland bodies I have happy personal experience of working on many such fine vehicles. When I was with Samuel Ledgard we had a dozen such vehicles from new and a greater number second hand, most of which had simply “nipped over the Pennines” to join us in their later years. We had four highbridge PD1s from Ribble and seven from Preston Corporation, all around fifteen years old when acquired and in incredibly superb order and requiring virtually no attention. A further four lowbridge PD2s from Ribble followed, along with one from West Wales. Other bargains of the same reliable chassis included three PD1s with ECW bodies (a fascinating and pleasing combination to me) and three with BBW bodies – those six all from Bristol. Then there was a lone PD2/MCW from Tynemouth, and there were two more Ribble PD1s from the same batch as those first mentioned above – but these had been upgraded to PD2 form and rebodied by Burlingham. It may be thought that such vehicles, purchased by a private operator while well in their dotage, would enjoy a quiet easy time but not a bit of it. The Ledgard services were intense, heavily patronised, often hilly, and tightly timed. nevertheless the fine Leyland vehicles performed like heroes under all conditions – a tribute indeed to the maintenance standards of their original owners and to the excellent attention practised by Samuel Ledgard. An illustration of the intensity of the services can be given in the 5.30pm weekday departure from Leeds (King Street) to Ilkley via Guiseley, which required no less than four double deckers – two “part journey” buses left at 5.27 and 5.28 while the two Ilkley machines left at 5.29 and 5.30. Very occasionally the short distance riders could find themselves luxuriantly carried home in a nice coach if a vehicle shortage dictated this. Perhaps the very finest of the second hand arrivals (no disrespect to the other splendid purchases) were the four Ribble PD1s 2471/2/8/9 BCK 414/415/421/422. These retained above the windscreens in the cabs (undoubtedly a bit of lovely mischief by our Ledgard painters) a notice warning “BOOTLE DEPOT – NOT TO BE DRIVEN UNDER ***** BRIDGE.” Well, I must apologise to the historians of the splendid Todmorden undertaking for “drifting off”, but these recollections do, to be fair, reflect some of the wonderful story and magic of Leyland and Lancashire “real” bus operation.
Chris Youhill
19/04/12 – 13:55
A very interesting and colourful post, Chris Y – drift off course as much as you like.
Chris Hebbron
19/04/12 – 16:15
Todmorden – a delightful Leyland print. How many people remember these somewhat unique coloured buses at the Yeadon Air Displays in the 1950s on hire to West Yorkshire Road Car alongside the Ledgard, West Riding, Leeds and Bradford Corporation hired in buses of the day at this annual event.
David Allen
19/04/12 – 16:17
With todays buses its a hard job to make them look smart, these are the exact opposite and it would be a hard job to make them look bad, no matter how hard some ‘Corporate image consultants’ may try.
Ronnie Hoye
19/04/12 – 17:51
I think Mulleys bought a total of four of these PD2s, I used to see one of them on a daily basis still in original livery working out of Mulleys ex Corona depot at Acton (near Sudbury, not London). It was said that Mulleys came to acquire them because the very enthusiastic Jack Mulley was fond of personally driving excursion coaches to Great Yarmouth in the 1960s when G. G Hilditch (later at Halifax/Todmorden) was General Manager at Great Yarmouth Corporation and so they came to know each other.
Nigel Turner
20/04/12 – 07:18
I feel the hand of Geoffrey Hilditch must have been behind the painting of the two PD2’s in Calderdale (Halifax) livery. Being an enthusiast as well as the manger must have been too much of a temptation to resist. In fairness though the two were of the newer PD2/12 batch and I used to see them on service around Todmorden when I lived there in the mid-1970’s. Needless to say they looked superb. Just to point out to Chris regarding his reference to Lancashire, Todmorden is in Yorkshire despite having a Lancashire postal address and in BR days the station was in the London Midland Region with maroon signs. It’s a bit of a mixed up sort of place with its geography.
Philip Halstead
20/04/12 – 07:19
I imagine that every contributor to these pages, myself included, would give almost anything to be able to ride on and even more to drive such a superb bus as the Todmorden PD2 or any vehicles of that era. The obvious care given to both the appearance of body work after such long and hard service and the equal care that must have been given to the mechanical side are of huge credit to it’s late lamented owners. Care such as that will never be given to todays guady, over-decorated and uncomfortable offerings to which no real thought seems to have been given, perhaps that will mean they won’t last as long and who would want or be able to preserve one of those electronic “marvels”.
Diesel Dave
20/04/12 – 07:20
It has always amused me that Todmorden Bus Station was always referred to as The Bus Departure Place. If the city fathers had not been economical with the stone work at the depot then there would have been no need for low bridge deckers.
Philip Carlton
20/04/12 – 07:21
Todmorden seems to have purchased a large number of all-Leyland double deckers over the years and one thing that surprises me is that some had very long lives with them and yet some were sold after twelve or thirteen years. Barton Transport bought two TD5’s from them in 1951 and got a further ten years service out of them. Later, in 1962, Barton’s purchased three PD2/1’s and again got long service from them. I think they knew that ex-Todmorden vehicles were very good purchases! David’s comment about the PD2’s being re-painted when Calderdale took over the fleet made me smile. I think that as good as they undoubtedly were, any other engineer would have retired them on acquisition but good old Mr Hilditch couldn’t resist the temptation to have them in his fleet!
Chris Barker
20/04/12 – 13:45
Wasn’t Todmordens town hall half in Lancashire and half in Yorkshire?
Roger Broughton
20/04/12 – 13:44
Philip Halstead’s comment on the ambiguous county status of Todmorden reminds me of the fact that, until 1888, the boundary ran right through the town. Between 1875 and 1888, dancers in the Town Hall ballroom were able to waltz across the boundary on each circuit! I used to do business with a cotton mill in Walsden (2 miles south-east) and they were definitely Lancastrian in accent, attitude and cricket persuasion! Indeed, the current Yorkshire-based Walsden and Todmorden cricket teams all still play for the Lancashire League. Reverting to a transport theme, had it not been for a delay in implementing the 1902 Todmorden Corporation Tramways Order, and the early introduction of pioneer motor buses in 1907, I doubt that we would now be discussing an all-lowbridge fleet. Todmorden was always a “missing link” in the Lancashire/Yorkshire tram network. Had their system been built, through-services may have been possible to Rochdale via Summit (assuming Todmorden adopted Rochdale’s standard gauge) but this would have precluded through running to Halifax via Hebden Bridge, as theirs was a 4ft system. Interestingly, in 1920, Halifax was actually authorised to extend their Hebden Bridge tram service to the Todmorden boundary but, of course, it was never built.
Paul Haywood
20/04/12 – 16:26
The original depot is still in existence and still in use by First. The ability of Daimler to provide a genuine low height Fleetline was one of the factors which meant they became the standard rear engined Halifax bus as they could enter the Millwood depot.
Chris Hough
20/04/12 – 16:27
It has often been said that Todmorden’s livery was dark and sombre – especially by those from ‘up the valley’ more used to Halifax’s colourful scheme. Although when newly painted the green shade appeared a kind of rich, dark olive, a combination of period paint technology and industrial pollution quickly turned the green very dark – almost black with a hint of green. Despite this – maybe even because of it – I personally thought they looked classy and dignified. TJOC buses always gave the impression of being extremely well maintained, both mechanically and bodily, and were always spotlessly clean inside. Though in its last years it was struggling to make ends meet financially, these standards of presentation never dropped, and the tradition continued under Calderdale JOC, and right into the WYPTE and Yorkshire Rider periods. Even in those times Tod’s workshops were very well equipped and their staff very capable of carrying out quite major work – including serious accident repairs – and Halifax would sometimes send their buses ‘down the valley’ to get them sorted. Sometimes Tod’ buses would be sent up to Halifax’s Elmwood workshops for servicing and repairs, and having been released for service by mid-afternoon would be used there for the rest of the day before been returned to their proper home. Halifax drivers appreciated this and would frequently comment how much better they ‘motored’ and above all how well their heaters and demisters always worked compared to their own.
John Stringer
21/04/12 – 08:30
Some excellent comments – I live in Walsden and we still have a good bus service, the Millwood depot is still in use and the route over the top from Hebden Bridge to Keighley is one of England’s most scenic. Yes the Town Hall was half in Lancashire and half in Yorkshire until 1889, when, under the 1888 Local Government Act I think, the boundary was moved westwards. We still have the OL (Oldham) postcode and 01706 (Rochdale) phone numbers. I think Portsmouth remained in Lancashire for a bit longer.
Geoff Kerr
21/04/12 – 08:31
With reference to Philip Carlton’s comment I have never heard the term “Bus Departure Place” used officially. The official name was “Bus Starting Centre” (or so I always understood) although I believe it’s now officially Todmorden Bus Station. How sad: why make it the same as everywhere else in stead of retaining something unique? Regardless of that, though, what a fabulous photo as many have already said, capturing not only the beautiful Leyland but also the essence of Hebden Bridge with the lovely, solid, stone buildings in the foreground and the precariously built terrace atop the hill behind. Can I also “cast a vote” in favour of the low depot roof? I’ve always had a soft spot for sunken gangways (not that they’re ideal for people of my height!) and for the proportions of most lowbridge buses. By the way, is Hebden Bridge Railway Station still maintained in a traditional style? It must be at least 10 years since I was last in it but it was beautifully preserved like a station on the K&WVR or similar.
Alan Hall
21/04/12 – 08:32
Many thanks to Philip for highlighting the fascinating and long standing saga of Todmorden’s eternal dilemma of allegiance. I actually worded my final comment somewhat misleadingly, and my reference to “Leyland and Lancashire real bus operation” was simply a commendation of the splendid standards of Preston Corporation and of Ribble.
Chris Youhill
22/04/12 – 07:31
In the mid sixties, I was working in Melling and travelled daily on Ribble route 301 from Liverpool, usually on a PD3, either the early Burlingham or the later MCW ones. All these buses seemed to be governed the top speed between 25 and 30 mph. If a bus was running late for any reason it ran late for the whole journey as the driver was unable to make up the lost time.
Jim Hepburn
21/05/12 – 08:10
Thanks guys for your very interesting and colourful comments about Todmorden J.O.C.s buses, the 2nd Municipal Corporation to run motor buses. The first picture is particularly interesting to myself since I passed my PSV test on Number 5 the previous year and, (who knows) it could even be me driving it? Todmorden was operated like a happy ‘Family’ concern under a gentleman of a manager, William Edward Metcalfe, (or ‘Teddy’). The livery was Brunswick Green & Cream and when buses required painting they were done so by Jim Hoyle who travelled from Bacup over Sharnyford to get to his work on a motor bike. Despite some terrible winters, especially over Deerplay Moor, Sharneyford or Oxenhope Moor, I don’t recall our services ever being stopped, Snow, Fog or Ice were no obstacle for us due to a terrific team of Todmorden Council workers who kept the roads open for us, whereas Rochdale could stop if the wind changed direction and Halifax were often not much better. The reason for low bridge type deckers was the height of the original eastern end of Millwood Depot but the following three extensions were built higher. Also, as is said, the Hungrtwood Arch at Portsmouth required a delicate approach at an angle, when the early upper saloon passengers were warned not to stand up. The replacement iron railway bridge removed that problem. The boundary always causes arguments but yes, Todmorden is in Yorkshire, for administrative purposes but the physical boundary cannot be removed, ie; the river ‘Walsden Water’ runs under and from one corner of the town hall to exit at the opposite corner of the round end and as has already been pointed out, ballroom dancers continually and unknowingly changed from Yorkshire into Lancashire and back again. That actually placed the Depot in Yorkshire with the Bus Station in Lancashire. To many residents the town is still half and half and the discussion will continue but to many of us it will always be Red Rose Lancashire. Sorry about the last bit but it keeps everyone interested.
Ken Lobley
22/05/12 – 07:40
A little late in the day, but I’ve just come across this postcard of a scene taken in Hebden Bridge. It shows (left) one of Todmorden’s 1928 piano-fronted TD1’s, (centre) a Halifax tram returning on the 8-mile route back to the city, and (right) a Halifax AEC Regal (JX 1955) about to set off for Heptonstall (presumably before the extension into the notoriously narrow village?). This photo is also shown in the excellent “Halifax Corporation Tramways” (Thornton/King) publication and has a date of 1932. However, my postcard gives a precise date of 9th August 1931 and is credited to a Mr S.L. Smith. The Todmorden bus is, of course, just about to make the same turn out of Cheetham Street as our PD2 posting above. Note the pre-steam cleaned bank building on the older view. Remarkably, most of these buildings are still extant, apart from the mill bridge in the far distance.
Paul Haywood
06/07/12 – 14:37
What a cracking posting with some superb period ‘atmos pics’ as they were once called.
Roger Broughton
14/09/12 – 06:47
Being a Tod lad I spent many happy hours riding on the ‘PD2s’ my favourite being number 2. Does anyone know who restored her and where she is now or did any of the other PD2s survive because if so, I would be very interested in acquiring one!
Paul Stothart
18/09/12 – 07:31
I sincerely hope that they sandblasted the bank building – had they steam cleaned it, it might not now be standing.. Incidentally, could someone perhaps confirm why there were apparently two power wires for the tramway – was it to avoid a frog at the diverging points which I presume were located not far up the road? Would the conductor have had to manually move the trolleypole to the opposite wire?
David Call
5 minutes later
Ignore the above dopey comment – as it was a terminus, the conductor would have had to move the trolleypole anyway!
David Call
19/09/12 – 07:06
…but why are there two tram wires for one track? Don’t tell me- the electricity went the other way! This is presumably just before the river bridge, and the single tram track just stops: did the tram always do so too?
Joe
10/10/12 – 09:14
In reply to Paul Stothart. (14.09.12), Todmorden PD2/1 Fleet number 2 was a terrible bus to drive when it was in service because it had a very poor lock in one direction. It was preserved simply because it was bus No2 which did the inaugural run in 1907 due to No1 having frozen to the ground. No2 was in the care of Todmorden Antiquarian Society for some years but unable to finance the upkeep, it went into the care of David Powell who had a wonderful restoration done on it, correcting the poor steering lock in the process. The bus was resident down south the last I heard of it. Another PD2/1 was partly restored on a farm in south midlands some years ago but I lost track of it. A TJOC PD2/12 was destined for restoration after Halifax decommissioned it but I think that one has been scrapped? Leopard/Willowbrook No9 is still doing the rallies in West Yorkshire with John Flowers at the helm and No15, (ex=Tow Bus) is currently under restoration to its original single deck bus form by Mike Sutcliffe, ‘The Leyland Man’, who also owns the famous open top Leyland G2 No14. One of the Leopard/Seddon-Pennine buses from TJOC was offered to me when Blue Bus sold it but I lost track of that one also. The one’s that did have a possible future in restoration were usually purchased from Mulley’s but I guess they have all long gone now?
Ken Lobley (ex-TJOC)
05/12/12 – 17:59
Hi there, I have enjoyed reading the messages on your page & seeing a dear old Tod bus. Happy days when my late father Ted Silby drove for them from around 1940/41 until 1955 when we as a family moved south into East Anglia where he became a driver for Eastern National. Dad always loved those Leyland buses with their powerful engines that could tackle the steep hills. Many were the stories of digging out a bus with a shovel in the winter snows, or even having to walk down to get help. Wearing a heavy great-coat & flying boots to keep out the freezing cold through the cab floor. Memories of Todmorden & those buses went hand in hand. I remember the name Teddy Metcalfe, & also Alver Brown who I think was Dad’s conductor. I still have some bus tickets from my childhood. Also my Dad was the first person to drive a Tod bus up Haworth High Street unofficially. A treat for the locals, but as he was new to the route he forgot to stop at the bottom. It’s a long time since this tale was told so I can’t recall how he turned around at the top, except carefully! Happy days to be sure, remembered fondly.
Jean Wilson
06/12/12 – 07:02
Nice to hear the tales of your father, Jean. Greatcoat and flying boots – more a case of ‘Are you flying tonight’ rather than driving!
Chris Hebbron
06/12/12 – 11:50
Just by coincidence, Tod. 2 was spotted parked in First Halifax’s Skircoat Garage last week.
John Stringer
06/12/12 – 17:33
I hear the owner of Tod 2 has good connections with First and is staying at Skircoat
Geoff S
08/12/12 – 15:29
This is the splendid TJOC coats of arms device still carried by their equally splendid 1934 Leyland TS6 towing wagon (formerly bus no. 15 – YG 7831) until its withdrawal in 1971. Note how it still bears the London, Midland and Scottish Railway device, despite this having been swallowed up into British Railways as far back as 1948. Several of the bus fleet carried this version also well into the 1960’s. That was (and in many ways still is) Todmorden for you – always caught in a wonderful time warp !
John Stringer
09/12/12 – 07:52
I understand in modern times certain Volvo double deckers allocated to Todmorden carried the council crest on the radiator grille.
Philip Carlton
09/12/12 – 11:49
There was always a fierce local pride amongst the Todmorden staff, most of whom never really accepted that they were still anything other than Todmorden JOC. ‘Interference’ by Halifax in any of their affairs was strongly resented and opposed, and visitors from ‘up the valley’ were usually treated with superficial politeness but regarded with deep suspicion ! “Tell ’em nowt” was the rule. An R-registered Fleetline (7006) was repainted into full TJOC livery in the 1980’s, and it kept this until withdrawal. Then an R-registered PSU4/Plaxton (8534) that had been at Todmorden since new was put into TJOC livery, though towards the end it was transferred to Halifax – but still retaining the livery. A number of the F-prefix Cummins-engined Olympian/NCME’s allocated to Tod’ were also fitted with small plates with the town’s coat of arms on their grilles. Finally after all these had gone, and after a great deal of pressure had been brought to bear, a Volvo Olympian/NCME (31737) was put into the TJOC livery. After its withdrawal 31737 was stored for quite a while pending a decision what was to happen to it, then just when everyone suspected that it had gone for scrap it was reported that it had been secured for preservation. Nowadays Tod’ does not have its own permanent allocation, and buses are simply sent ‘down there’ from Halifax as required. When they return to Halifax for servicing they are replaced by whatever is available at the time, so the chance of there ever being a bus in a dedicated livery again is very unlikely.
John Stringer
10/12/12 – 07:34
As a postscript to the picture of the emblem with the LMS coat of arms, here is a view of the final style, incorporating the BR double arrow logo – although using traditional gold transfers rather than the “official” red and white. It would be interesting to know whether the double arrow ever appeared as part of the livery – e.g. on a feeder service – on any other buses. I have always assumed that the continued use of the LMS version was simply a question of using up the existing stock of transfers until they ran out. Did the BR lion and wheel logo (in either version) ever make an appearance?
Also attached a view of No.5 with its three siblings in Mulley’s yard at Ixworth. This was taken in October 1971, and the lack of blinds suggests that this was shortly after their arrival and before entering service.
Alan Murray-Rust
14/01/13 – 13:32
Joe on 19/4/2012 said the depot was the reason for the lowbridge buses. Well here it is with Titan 18 departing to do some midday extra short workings that were a feature of TJOC operations. Some great comments and this is one operator I do miss. Pity I was never exploratory enough to go to Mankinholes, it was always a case of the bus might not come back.
Ian Lynas
12/02/13 – 17:04
Let me add my own thoughts to this fascinating stream of memories. I was born in Orkney but moved down to the Summit/Littleborough Area so lived in the Rochdale Corporation Passenger Transport Dept area. We actually lived about 100 yards from the Summit Inn which was the joint meeting place of Rochdale and Tod, so we are virtually on the edge of Rochdale latterly Selnec and Greater Manchester operating area. The oldest bus I remember seeing was one of the FWT batch. I always thought the livery was drab but they were remarkably long lived a testament to the fleet engineers. I mind seeing a Todmorden bus on frequent occasions in the evening picking up workers at Fothergill and Harveys Mill at Factory End in Summit. To my young eyes the buses never were well patronised so was not entirely surprised that there was a merger at the end. The only times I ever saw them quite busy was on Good Friday when there was a popular Fair held in Todmorden. I also remember seeing 3 Todmorden buses in the evening at the terminus at Summit which I thought a bit peculiar. I remember the 20 service on Saturdays which was express run to Rochdale latterly by single deckers of the 1961/2/4 batches, Leyland/East Lancashire.. My father and I visited the depot and saw the Leyland breakdown truck. It would be interesting to think what the buses would have been like if the bus depot entrance had been built higher. In my childhood and youth I regularly went to Sunday school and on this occasion I think we must have combined with other Sunday Schools and for our outing we were going to Fleetwood and the weather forecast on the Saturday was for torrential rain and it rained and rained. I will never forget the journey on the way home. Every stanchion, pole etc had items of wet clothing hanging up to dry. The buses were tough an rugged as I remember buses going up over Sharneyford to Bacup which was a big test of endurance. I wonder how many Volvos would last as long as Todmorden buses.
Andrew Wylie
Post script which is really a question. Did some withdrawn Todmorden buses end up in the fleet of W Alexanders fleet up in Scotland. I know that they had lowbridge Leylands in Montrose and elsewhere. If they did I wonder if some photos survive
13/02/13 – 04:32
Five prewar Todmorden buses did go to Alexander’s in 1938 via the dealer Millburn Motors of Glasgow. They were Leyland TD1’s of 1928/29 numbered 3, 7, 13, 14 & 18 (WW 6759, 6797, 6800, 6801 & 8958). 13 & 14 were not used and were returned to the dealer. 3, 7 & 18 were taken into stock but did not last long, being withdrawn in 1939/40. Another Scottish operator – Baxter’s of Airdrie – also took five Tiger TS8’s and two Titan TD5’s in 1950/51. No postwar Todmorden buses crossed the border.
John Stringer
14/02/13 – 07:07
Just to amplify the point made by Andrew, Todmorden Bus Depot had low roof trusses throughout the later extension at the western end. The original depot would accept highbridge buses but once in, they had to be reversed out! Eh, we had one or two normal height Halifax buses with damaged roofs when they had called in at Todmorden for some assistance!
Ian Wild
31/05/13 – 17:43
The BR Lion and Wheel logo was never used on Todmorden buses. The LMS crest lasted until at least 1961 (!) and was eventually replaced by the plain words “British Railways”, to which the double arrow was later added. Some coaches in the Halifax JOC fleet had the BR double arrow on the rear.
Geoff Kerr
30/01/14 – 15:45
When Calderdale JOC came into existence one of the TJOC Titans received full Halifax livery One day in 1971 I was walking along Stanningley Road in Leeds when the 4.10pm Halifax bus came roaring up the dual carriageway. It was none other than the aforementioned Titan which had made its break for freedom and got to Leeds. It was in amazingly good fettle for such a vintage machine it certainly showed a number of Leeds two door Atlanteans a clean pair of heels. Its rasping exhaust could be heard echoing of buildings for several minutes after it passed.
Chris Hough
30/01/14 – 18:00
The bus painted in full Halifax colours was Halifax fleet number 356 and lasted for quite a while after withdrawal behind Elmwood Depot potentially for preservation. Eventually it deteriorated to such a degree that the scrapyard was the only option.
Ian Wild
31/01/14 – 07:09
355 and 356 both received the Halifax livery, 355 in August 1971 but 356 a little later – it was still in Todmorden livery in early September. My photo of the Bus Starting Centre just below the top of this extensive posting was taken on the day I first saw 355 – it’s just visible amongst the others all still in Todmorden livery.
David Beilby
31/01/14 – 10:09
Ian Wild mentions a former Tod’ PD2 being parked up behind Elmwood Garage after withdrawal. Here is what was by then WYPTE’s 3355 so parked, along with withdrawn 1962 Leopard/Weymann 3033 and 1963 PD3/4/Weymann 3053, some time in early 1976.
John Stringer
28/03/14 – 07:03
Hi Chris Youhill, to endorse Chris Hebbrons comments I must add my own, it’s always a treat to read your “driftings”, nostalgia in great bucket loads, especially your mention of the 6 Leyland PD1s that were acquired by Ledgards from Bristol Omnibus Co. I always felt that Leyland Motors repute and the esteem in which they were held throughout the world was a classic example of the ‘way that it used to be’, and rarely matched today,sadly. As a footnote to my driftings, I will be staying in the Hebden Bridge area later this year, it’s a pity that the streets will be empty of PD1s, that’s a fact. I will watch for more of your driftings Chris, thanks.
Dave Knapp
28/03/14 – 09:10
Dave K – I’m afraid that the streets of Hebden Bridge have always been empty of PD1s, Todmorden went from TD7s to PD2s and Halifax didn’t buy any Leyland double-decks at all until their own PD2s. Now this is something I should really have more sense than to try and do, i.e. ‘correct’ Chris Youhill, but there are a couple of statements on which I’d like to comment. First of all, the one that the two ex-Ribble rebodied PD1As were from the same batch as the four Leyland-bodied ones. In 1947 Ribble bought 48 PD1As, 10 with Leyland highbridge bodies (2470-9) and 38 with Brush lowbridge (2480-2517), and it was, of course, 22 of the Brush lowbridges which were rebodied by Burlingham – I make the Ledgard ones ex-Ribble 2484 and 2498. As to whether all 48 were from the same ‘batch’, they did have identical chassis, they all came in the same year, and the registrations did follow on from the highbridges to the lowbridges, so – er, okay then. Regarding the source of the fifth lowbridge PD2, it actually came to Ledgards from Eynons of Trimsaran, but had been new, not to West Wales (the independent), but to Western Welsh (the BET company). I have always been a bit suspicious about EUH959, since Eynons were the sort of operator who bought their double-deckers second hand and usually used them to the end of their useful life. Perhaps the fact of EUH959 being lowbridge went against it, since I’m not aware that Eynons had any requirement for lowbridge vehicles.
David Call
28/03/14 – 09:14
Many thanks David for that very humbling response, and I do indeed take great pleasure from keeping alive accurate “atmosphere” of what were undoubtedly the good old days of service provision – days which were sensibly regulated and free of excessive profiteering rather than sensible returns on investment. Just to add to the discussion on the “all Leyland” aspect, I passed my PSV test on one of the six PD1s which Ledgard bought new in 1946 at the start of a whole new era after the gloom of WW2 – the Ministry examiner was a sombre but fair man with no idea how much that hour on unfamiliar roads in West Leeds meant to me. As I descended, for the first time in my life, a long hill in Armley in third gear a voice through the cab window sighed “There are four gears on this vehicle.” I’m sure this was a trick as I approached a T junction with poor visibility – I stayed in third gear and would no doubt have been failed for changing up to fourth. JUM 378 must have “known” how anxious I was to pass – it was freshly arrived from a morning peak journey and everything was “just right” and it behaved like a dream. When I returned to Otley depot the “No nonsense Brummie” manager emerged from his office and asked “Have you passed Kid ?” I replied “yes”, but that I’d had to endure a skit from the examiner to the effect that I needed a lot more practice before being let loose on the Public. Our boss repeated “I said have you passed Kid?” So again I said “Well, yes.” With a smile he simply said “Number 14 tomorrow Kid” and returned to his office to fill another gap with a name. “Number 14” was a very taxing late turn on the incredibly busy Leeds – Guiseley – Ilkley service which was sixteen miles in 53 minutes and steep hills and full loads galore. The bus was the glorious PD1/ECW LAE 12, a former native of Bristol, and like the test vehicle of the previous day, JUM 378, it behaved like a dream, pulling well and with a fair turn of speed and a clutch and gearbox like silk. That was a Friday evening, and I was given the same duty (but two hours longer, an extra round trip) on the Saturday when I found myself in the seemingly enormous 1952 U, one of the six AEC Regent V/Roe beauties. I say “seemingly enormous” – it just shows what a difference can be made by one foot longer and six inches wider, oh and that huge bonnet. How I’d love to turn the clock back to 1961 and do it all again.
Chris Youhill
28/03/14 – 17:39
Dave K, You may see a PD1a/Leyland in Hebden Bridge when you visit. as Wigan 34 may be out on a few weddings this summer.
Geoff S
08/04/14 – 16:54
Thanks for the tip Geoff S. A lookout will be maintained ! As an afterthought Chris Youhill, your remarks about well behaved PD1s,we used to have a route in Bristol with a sharp left hand turn just as the gradient steepened from medium to bloody steep, and with practice, one could change down from 3rd to 2nd then 2nd to 1st (if needed),without using the clutch pedal,of course,perfectly matching all the revolving parts was a definite prerequisite,and as you say it was quietly satisfying once mastered ! Oh, and It was not quite the same experience if done with a Bristol or Gardner, what good days they were in spite of the long hours.
Dave Knapp
09/04/14 – 08:16
A little misunderstanding and friendly disagreement here Dave – I can honestly say that I have never changed gear without using the clutch on any vehicle in my life. While I admit that seemingly perfect changes can be achieved by “matching” the necessary speeds I’m quite sure that hidden damage and/or wear is imposed upon transmission couplings and differentials etc by this practice. Just another point of view I accept, and I have insufficient detailed mechanical knowledge to back up my theory, but that’s just the way I’ve always felt about it. As you say though silent smooth changes on the PS1s/PD1s were very satisfying indeed, reinforced I always felt by a definite hint of prewar TS/TD dulcet gearbox tones.
Chris Youhill
30/03/15 – 08:30
I had the pleasure of driving every TJOC bus in the early 1960s. Very reliable and easy to drive. I have fond memories of driving a bus to Old Town and, at the Pecket Well right turn, getting stuck in deep snow and having to call for breakdown assistance. The breakdown crew arrived and decided it was to risky to free the double decker bus so a decision was made to leave the bus stuck in the snow and ice. The bus was left, with the engine running overnight, and recovered next morning (engine still running!). The weather was atrocious but bus services were resumed very quickly, a testament to the ethos of the TJOC.
Eric Nothard
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
28/01/19 – 09:32
Reading through the comments, there was very little about the people who drove the Tod buses. My mum was the first woman to pass her test and get her PSV licence in a Tod bus in the early days of WW2. There were a couple of women drivers then as well as conductors or “clippies”. She had some interesting tales to tell about driving conditions then. She described driving up to Old Town and Pecket Well in deep snow, because the buses “kept running” regardless. We used to play a game in the car where mum closed her eyes and told us where all the bus stops were. She was usually spot on!
Janet
30/01/19 – 06:47
Janet, was your mum driving at the time??!!!!! That would have been a feat!
Isle of Man Road Services Ltd 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/1 Leyland H30/26R
I received the above two photographs along with a shot of a Tiger Cub from Michael Bishop with the following:-
“I was on the Isle of Man to explore the railways, but found the IOMR had just closed! Lord Ailsa came along the following year, which is why there is still something left. Another reason for going everywhere by bus. So I’m afraid I know nothing about buses, although I remember the bus I took the interior shot of made a lovely noise. It seems to have LEYLAND on the gearbox(?) casing. So I cannot tell you more about them. The bus was at Peel and taken on 28.5.66.”
“Not knowing anything about buses” in my opinion isn’t a good enough reason for not showing an internal shot of such a classic vehicle.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Bishop
15/05/12 – 18:06
Don’t come much better than all Leyland PD2s, but can anyone explain why Isle of Man always had these peculiar off balance upper deck ventilators (ONLY on the near-side)?
David Oldfield
16/05/12 – 07:51
I never understood that either, but it did make the IOMRS fleet rather distinctive. (I have a feeling I have seen a photo of a similarly equipped PD2 with another operator, but I can’t remember where or with whom). Very nice to see that tidy interior shot too. It reminds me of Barton’s second hand no. 754 (GUT 455) ex-Allens, Mountsorrel, which operated regularly in the early 60s on our route 15 (Ilkeston – Long Eaton – Sawley).
Stephen Ford
16/05/12 – 07:52
Not sure why this style was followed but Widnes also did the same thing on their vehicles
Chris Hough
16/05/12 – 07:52
Widnes Corporation used the same arrangement which I can only assume was to give upper-deck passengers a choice of the fresh-air treatment by sitting on the nearside or for the more delicate a chance to keep out of the draught by sitting on the offside. I don’t recall the arrangement being used by any other operators and it certainly spoiled the appearance of the vehicles. I would be interested to learn if my assumption is correct.
Philip Halstead
16/05/12 – 08:58
Just clutching at straws, but I wonder if the odd window arrangement could possibly be to avoid a direct “wind tunnel” effect from the offside windscreen and down the staircase, to escape from the platform.
Chris Youhill
17/05/12 – 08:40
Having lived in Widnes in the 70s, Widnes Corporation were not doing their passengers any favours with all the chemical factories in the area!
Jim Hepburn
30/06/12 – 11:26
As far as I know it was to do with cost – IoMRS were not known for spending anymore than was absolutely necessary, the same window arrangement continued right through until the last new d/d purchases in 1964, a one pane window was cheaper than an opening hopper or slider. Equally saloon heaters were largely not provided, nor were grabrails. Whilst I can’t just recall the grabrail specification on the PD2 shown, other than what is visible on the image, the 1964 batch of PD3s had head height rails only installed above the two lower deck side seats, whilst the sole upright rail, other than on the platform area, was at the top of the stairs. No other grabrails were fitted, which meant conducting – or alighting – the bus whilst on the move err…interesting.
busbus
21/08/12 – 07:37
I remember the arrival of this and its 17 sisters in 1949, and worked on them as a seasonal conductor 1958-61. I can confirm the Company sought economy in everything; none of its buses had direction indicators, relying instead on a white band on the right sleeve of drivers’ uniforms when stuck out of the cab window. Drivers claimed that when Leyland staff received an order for buses “without this, without that or the other” they would say “It’s that b***** IOM Road Services again”. Due to lack of grab rails, on a lively journey I used to press the flat of my hand against the ceiling to keep upright.
Mike Jones
03/01/13 – 06:34
Nice to see this pic. I’m currently working on similar bus KMN 501 but will restoring it as Liverpool L428 JKB 580.
Rob
03/01/13 – 10:45
North Western was another all Leyland PD2 operator with the same ventilation arrangement. The standard Colin Bailey body throughout its life and various modifications was offered as standard with solid front upper deck windows, the opening vents could be specified as an extra. Many operators bought the standard package but some quickly received complaints of lack of ventilation, especially in the summer when tobacco smoke would add to warmth and the side window ventilators removed little of the fug. They then retrofitted one or two vents. North Western’s examples were lowbridge bodies which made the problem worse and they quickly fitted a nearside vent window, in their case the reason for the location being the offside was occupied by the gangway.
Leeds City Transport 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/1 Leyland H30/26R
This batch of sixty Leyland bodied Leyland Titans were delivered to Leeds in 1949-1950. Most of the batch were allocated to the Bramley depot for most of their careers providing most of the duties on the 54, 77 and 23 services as well as the Bramley contribution to the 11, 15 and 16 services. All were withdrawn in the late sixties. They along with the 1949-1950 AEC Regent IIIs were the last Leeds City Transport buses to carry via blinds as standard retaining them to the end of their careers. One 356 NNW 356 later ran for Saltburn Motor Services at Saltburn-by-the-Sea near Redcar. Seen here is 379 NNW 379 parked in the depot yard at the old Bramley depot which was originally a tram depot converting to buses in the early fifties.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hough
01/06/12 – 07:16
Great to see this view, Chris. Fond memories, as this was my “home” depot and these PD2s were the workhorses on my local 23, 54, 65 and 77 routes. Even when my family moved to Moortown in the early sixties, two of them followed me (377/378?) to operate Torre Road depot services to Moortown and Primley Park (69/70). Small point but, Bramley depot converted from trams in 1949. In those earlier days of “common sense” the friendly depot staff used to allow us lads to wander round the depot collecting numbers, even letting us sit in one of the PD1 cabs so we could pretend to drive it. The most dodgy thing we ever got up to was the occasional destination “twiddle” to try to show obsolete destinations like Guiseley.
Paul Haywood
01/06/12 – 07:17
These are the true “Farringtons” – the final, and definitive Leyland bodywork of 1951 – 1954 not strictly being so. Sheffield and Manchester had substantial numbers of Farringtons as well. They were only built on PD2/1 chassis and are distinctive with their separate sliders. [The ultimate “not Farringtons” were mostly PD2/12 and had ventilator sliders integrated into the window pans.]
David Oldfield
01/06/12 – 12:02
Thanks for the compliment Paul. As a lad I was also allowed in the depot often accompanying my dad when he went for his wages as he was a guard for LCT. To see the bus washer in action was the highlight of any visit! The two exits were both odd. The original tram exit was angled and narrow not a problem with a tram but a bus could easily suffer damage if the driver approached at the wrong angle. The “back door” was I think put in when the buses took over and had a steep ramp to ground level as the depot was on a hill The ramp wall is visible in the photo.
Chris Hough
02/06/12 – 07:15
Manchester’s Farringtons were on PD2/3 chassis. I’m pretty sure Southport’s were too. The same sliding window design then turned up with Duple, following the migration of an engineer from Leyland.
Peter Williamson
02/06/12 – 11:55
Leeds may have had the only PD2/1s with this style of body as they only bought 7ft 6ins wide buses apart from one batch of 8ft AECs until the advent of thirty foot long chassis. This was due to limited clearance between platforms in the bus station.
Chris Hough
07/06/12 – 10:34
Number 380 was transferred into the Driver training fleet after normal withdrawal, and I was given my job after taking my LCT application test in it one busy teatime in October 1969. It behaved like a dream and the true gentleman in charge of the School, Senior Inspector Albert Bradley, allowed me a few extra miles on top of the normal test route when I told him how much I was enjoying it – so instead of turning towards Town at the end of Old Lane we went up the Ring Road, through Middleton, and down Belle Isle Road. My only real criticism of these vehicles was the incessant rattling of the sliding windows which was really annoying to passengers. Also I’m sorry to say that many of the drivers NEVER used first gear – the bottom stop in Eastgate was the worst place, and some would nearly burn out the clutch when pulling away with a heavy load – the rattling windows had their own extra special “concerto” at this location !!
Chris Youhill
08/06/12 – 17:26
Back in 1949 whilst working on a neon sign for a well known Leeds grocery chain in York Road directly opposite Torre Road garage,(Long before the present road system was built including the M1 & M62) I witnessed the whole of this fleet in convoy heading towards the city centre…I have often wondered why, assuming these vehicles were Lancashire built, why were they entering the city from an easterly direction and not from the west. I assume that they would have had to take whatever route avoiding low bridges on their journey to Leeds. Also why did they by pass the main LCT garage? I would have thought this is where all new vehicles were vetted before being allocated to their respected depots….As a passenger I did travel regularly on these vehicles, and were super when flying up Burley Hill,and the internal body work was comparable to those “attractive” Roe bodies of the same era. Interestingly though, two years later I was sent to Leyland’s Farington Foundry to sort out some electrical problem, and more concerned with the task in hand I didn’t show much interest of the activities that went on in this huge complex….but that’s another story.
Ken Greaves
Ken I can’t throw any light on the buses travelling from the east into Leeds. But I would hazard a guess that they were heading to the bus works on Donnisthorpe Street for checking prior to entering service. The wheel has now turned full circle in Leeds as Donnisthorpe Street in Hunslet is now the site of the First West Yorkshire head office The former had office in Swinegate is now a Malmaison hotel.
Chris Hough
09/06/12 – 07:55
Great memories there Ken, and I may have been “on board” at the same time as you on many occasions as I lived at the top of Burley Hill in the early “70s.” The PD2s were very spritely indeed, especially in the hands of drivers who correctly changed down into third, and occasionally second if heavily laden, with maximum engine revs so as not to lose momentum. Passengers in the habit of “baling out” at speed had to be very skilled and careful in those days if they were to avoid coming a cropper. In later half cab times, when I was driving the little AEC Mark V Regents on the same route but service 50 folks could step off easily half way up the hill as the anaemic asthmatic little blighters (the buses not the clients) were so gutless that Burley Hill had them licked. Coming the other way one morning peak up Kirkstall Hill towards the Merry Monk number 908 (1908 NW) – one of the final 8 foot wide batch – gave up the struggle and ground to a halt on the worst bend. This embarrassing predicament was partially explained by the inability of the conductress to manage even basic arithmetic – 60 plus 8 – the clients were standing almost everywhere apart from the roof, and there may have been one or two up there even but they will have slipped off due to the lack of hand grips !!
Chris Youhill
10/06/12 – 17:04
Yes Chris this part of York Road was more conducive to seeing Roe built vehicles travelling on it, after all the Roe factory was only just a couple of miles up the road at Crossgates. I wondered if this batch had been built at some other plant within the Leyland network but outside of Lancashire, or maybe held in some holding centre so delivery of the whole fleet could be made in bulk….We will probably never know. During my five day stint at Farrington foundry, the official we (my apprentice and me) were to contact, was more insistent on giving us the grand tour of the place rather than giving us the lowdown on our reasons for being there…..However Farrington was not just another foundry, it assembled trucks and wagons of all shapes and sizes, including bus and trolley bus chassis. The trolley bus workshops were behind two large doors which were big enough to admit large vehicles such as a double decker bus unfortunately the doors were locked so we were unable to go in….The tour of the place finished at about three in the afternoon after which I was then taken to see the job I had come to do. I would have been over the moon if the grand tour had occurred after I had completed the job in hand instead of before… Nevertheless it was grand experience for a 22year old…..But if trolleys buses were made at Farrington then coach building was done too! So could it be that the so called “Farrington” bus was so called for no other reason than it was made at Farrington as opposed to being made at some other plant within the Leyland framework, whatever design reference it might be.
Ken Greaves
11/06/12 – 08:37
Fascinating puzzle, Ken, regarding their eastern approach to Torre Road in 1949. Could the explanation be something as simple as them using the west/north Ring Road to avoid the congested Leeds city centre? In 1949 I presume the route from Leyland would have been Blackburn, Burnley, Todmorden, Halifax and then possibly round the south of Bradford via Odsal and Stanningley (the Hebble route), or along the A58 to Wortley (on the YWD route). In this way, they could have then used (much of) the existing A6120 Ring Road around the west and north of the city as far as Seacroft, then eastward into Leeds along York Road to Torre Road. Pure speculation, of course, but assuming they were being driven by Leyland trade-plate drivers, perhaps the extra mileage was justified to avoid them being stuck in the centre of a strange city (full of trams, of course).
Paul Haywood
11/06/12 – 08:38
Chris Youhill, my in laws lived on the Sandford Estate and I lived at Hawksworth round the circus no doubt you will be very familiar with the No 50/51 route. Whilst I personally have no connections with the bus industry only as a passenger, I knew several people that did work on the buses. My brother was a conductor at Headingley during the sixties and seventies and two schoolmates who started as parcel boys worked their up to bus drivers George Kennedy was an upholsterer for LCT and George Brogden the keenest inspector of all, he was one of the drivers who drove the Leeds buses down to London during the war….. I also have lived in Little London (born there) Harehills, and Pontefract and back to Little London and now in the Carr Manors and are familiar with both trams and buses that operated in that particular area. I loved your tale of conking out on Kirkstall Hill god knows how many times this has happened whilst I have been a passenger on the number 50 bus, it always happened when an enthusiastic driver tries to change up a gear after crossing over Kirkstall Lane and then tries to engage first gear after the vehicle has ground to a halt. The thrill of this journey was the descent of Burley Hill after getting started again, to make up for lost time the driver would speed up (providing George Brogden the inspector wasn’t about) and one would wonder whether the brakes would hold or not, or would the bus topple over, it was certainly exciting….Most days the 50 bus and the 77 bus ran together and usually it became a race to see which bus reached the top or bottom of Burley Hill first. depending of course which direction the buses were travelling.
Ken Greaves
13/06/12 – 09:51
Ken, you paint a most evocative and accurate picture of the Leeds bus scene of fifty years ago. !! I may well have worked with your brother as I too was at Headingley from 1969 to 1986. My own initiation into the 50 service has me blushing still – it was a Saturday afternoon in November 1969 and the bus was one of the aforementioned anaemic small Mark V Regents, and having persuaded it with difficulty while fully loaded to reach Hawksworth Circus I crossed the roundabout. I was pretty sure that the second right turn should then be taken, until I entered a narrow street where several worthies were washing their cars – foamy water and sponges flew everywhere as they ran for cover – I should have taken the first right turn !! For the work shy element at Headingley and Bramley depots Morris Lane and Leeds & Bradford Road provided ample views to see over the Abbey fields what eastbound progress the opposition were making – this was the reason for much deliberate “bunching” of vehicles on the 50/77 between Kirkstall and Leeds. The poor old 23 was largely unable to participate in this contest as it was a very fast busy twenty eight minute run with only two minutes at each terminus. When I came to a halt with 908 that morning I had remained in first gear all the way up from the Kirkstall Lane junction but still couldn’t prevent the lamentable and notorious thing from giving up, the last straw of course being the conductress’s record breaking load !! Away from all this Brand’s Hatch and Le Mans nonsense I spent my last fourteen years (1987 – 01) at the Pontefract depot of South Yorkshire Road Transport (and successors) so once again may well have encountered you there. My best friend lives also now in the Carr Manors so once again “What a small world” eh ??
Chris Youhill
13/06/12 – 16:52
Chris Youhill…I lived at Pontefract from 1950 to 1953 and travelled each day to Leeds from Willow Park trying to avoid West Riding services whenever I could. South Yorkshire service was superb in every way,prompt warm fast clean cheerful, it was an almost personal service that you got. Those single decker Albions could certainly move. What a delight to board the Strachan bodied double decker on the return journey at night and fall asleep with your feet on the heater and not wake up until you had arrived back in Pontefract, after working all day in the frozen wastes of Ireland Wood and Cookridge on the new council housing estates.
Ken Greaves
14/06/12 – 07:42
You are right Ken about the superb service provided by South Yorkshire (Motors Ltd in that period). You may be surprised to hear that Albion/Roe double decker TWY 8 (which was still a single decker coach in 1950/3) is now in advanced preservation and appears at rallies. When I started work with the Firm in 1987 I was just astounded to find that the Atlantean, Fleetline and Olympian double deckers were fitted by the Company with water squirters on each driving mirror, allowing clear vision in the worst of weather on muddy roads.
Chris Youhill
14/06/12 – 07:45
Chris Y – I really think you should write a book of your experiences in the bus industry of yesteryear – all good stuff and generating a chuckle or two: maybe not for you at the time, however!
Chris Hebbron
14/06/2012 14:17:46
Couldn’t agree more with Chris H about Chris Y.
David Oldfield
14/06/12 – 14:18
Chris Hebbron…I totally agree, Chris Y should write a book, then we could all contribute something.
Ken Greaves
14/06/12 – 14:19
Chris Y- was there a video of TWY 8 here on Bus Sounds running up Dewsbury cutting on a running day presumably….?, but it was taken down from You-tube… anyone know where it is? In the old mining areas ample water was essential on all glass, as you collected a film of grey/black greasy slurry off the roads. My first Morris Minor initially had no screenwasher- frightening. Good on them!
Joe
15/06/12 – 05:51
Thanks to Chris H, David and Ken for that literary vote of confidence – I should have written such a book years ago and would still love to do so, but am now very “senior” for that sort of venture. Off to Norfolk now with two friends to sample the preserved railways – no doubt drenched if the forecasters are correct – but will catch up with everything on Monday hopefully.
Chris Youhill
15/06/12 – 12:19
How about someone getting you a digital recorder for you to speak your recollections into, Chris? That way you don’t have to tax the senior brain but just chat, as to a friend – rather as you do here in cyber-space.
David Oldfield
01/07/12 – 10:31
Just stumbled across the photo of the LCT PD2 379 at the old Bramley Town End Depot and spent the last 30 minutes enthralled by the comments of Chris Youhill et al. These NNW’s plus the XUM small Regent V’s with their well proportioned exposed radiator 7ft 6ins Roe bodies represented my very early introduction to the industry, a precursor to a life long career, thankfully still continuing over 45 years later ! Although born in Nottinghamshire, my Grandparents lived on Kirkstall Hill in Leeds and from an early age various weekends and school holidays would be spent sat at a bedroom window watching the 23’s, 50’s and 77’s travelling up and down the hill. Long before awareness of BBF Books (Yorkshire Municipal Edition) or Busses Illustrated I had worked out that regular performers on the 23/77’s were PD2’s 350-399 and the Regents 863-894 with allocation split between Bramley and Headingley Depots. Trips into Leeds with Grandma always offered a choice to/from Eastgate with the AEC’s winning the day (perhaps it was the struggle up Burley Hill with the throaty but underpowered 470). This would have been the period 1963-1968 when my family moved to Burley in Wharfedale but what memories! Even before that time, the old NNW’s were being replaced with newer versions (1953 built 301-310 and 1955 201-220 and even further XUM’s from the batch 840-862) so for me, the end of an era and happy childhood memories bus watching. I do remember that four of the NNW’s (394, 396, 397, 398) remained for sometime after the rest had disappeared, I believe to the end of 1968 and of course as mentioned by your other contributors 380 found itself on Driver Training Duties. Move forward 30 years as Operations Manager at Bramley Garage (what coincidence!) and responsibility for those same Kirkstall Hill services, although the 23 long consigned to history, the 77 now the 49 to and from Bramley Garage but still the 50, the latter routes now operated by Olympian Royales. Plenty more memories, although on occasion the memory may play tricks and I thank you for helping jog them. I will be happy to share on line if of value.
Keith Roebuck
02/07/12 – 07:23
I’m sure we’d like to hear of your experiences in the industry, humorous or otherwise, Keith – they can always be posted under “Articles”
Chris Hebbron
07/07/15 – 06:33
I lived in Newcastle from 1961-66. During that time PD2 NNW 345 appeared regularly outside Newgate House, where I worked, running for a local operator.
Colin Milner
17/07/15 – 12:39
I can remember going to School by Leeds City Transport on routes 50.51&77 which went via Burley Hill Leeds and were operated by Leyland Buses with a Charles Roe body I think they were classed as PD1 and had a crash gearbox and always had to stop on the hill to select the appropriate lower gear. before moving to Leeds I lived at Yeadon and travelled on Samuel Ledgard buses which ran between Otley & Horsforth via Yeadon they were Bedfords with wooden plank seats and there registration numbers were JNW 347&348, I would like to see a photograph of one of these if.possible.
Howard Clayton
17/07/15 – 12:42
I’m afraid our expert on Samuel Ledgard has been taken poorly a couple of days ago, but he will be back with us shortly.
Peter
18/07/15 – 06:18
Colin M, the Newcastle operator of whom you speak was Armstrong of Westerhope. They ran a service from Newcastle to Stanfordham. The Newcastle terminus was outside what was the Co-op department store in Newgate Street. When T&W PTE were created, the route came under their control, and Armstongs, along with Galleys coaches became Armstrong Galley, the coaching division of T&W PTE
Ronnie Hoye
25/07/16 – 09:48
Seemingly forgotten in this talk of the Bramley vehicles is the operation of the PD2/1s on the 38 Moortown-Whitkirk from about the time of their entry into Leeds service throughout most of the 1950s. Where were these buses stationed? Torre Road presumably but does anyone know for sure?
David A. Young
25/07/16 – 15:11
No trouble David in confirming that the 38 route was operated by Torre Road depot – two buses were required to maintain the half hourly frequency, a round trip being one hour. Crew (later OPO) changes took place at the Melbourne roundabout, the staff using other bus services to and from.
Chris Youhill
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/01/17 – 15:15
Depends what period Howard Clayton (17/07/15 – 12:39) is talking about. I don’t ever remember PD1s doing the 77 route, certainly not during my time at Bramley garage (late ’58’to end of ’59) – the PD1s were always on the 46. The PD2s had a crash 1st gear and synchro on 2nd 3rd &4th. 1st would be engaged to pull away after stopping at the bus stop after turning right off Kirkstall Hill, where the 77 then joined the same route as 50/51 (Daimlers from Headingley Depot). Were these Daimlers Charles Roe war time utility bodies, I’m not sure? On the opposite corner to the bus stop, in that small parade of shops, was a fish & chip shop owned by Albert Hardisty – his brother was Inspector Cyril Hardisty!, who twice caught me not wearing my hat – a hanging offence. Albert was my wife’s uncle- small world, eh?
Yet again another shot from the job lot of shots I bought at the market I’m afraid there is no information on the photo. But staying on the low bridge theme of Newcastle Corporation that I have been posting, here is a line up of three Newcastle low bridge double deckers. Between 1948/9 Newcastle took delivery of quite a number of all Leyland Titans, among them were 6 low bridge variants – LVK 6/11, fleet numbers 354/9 – 359 pictured. They replaced 4 pre war Daimlers BTN 100/3 (fleet numbers unknown) and for a while they ran alongside these utility Guy Arabs, the two in the photo are still in the blue wartime livery. Unfortunately I cant find any information about the Guy’s as regards fleet numbers, Registrations or bodybuilder etc.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
27/07/12 – 08:37
The two Guy Arabs appear to be of the Mark 1 type with the short bonnet. The bodywork seems to be the standard Brush utility L27/28. Unfortunately, I do not have access to a Newcastle fleetlist to confirm.
Roger Cox
27/07/12 – 08:38
Unlike many of our number, I cannot whip up any enthusiasm for utility bodywork. On the other hand, I have boundless enthusiasm for the all Leyland PD2 – especially the earlier examples and the final version. The true Faringtons, with their separate ventilators, did nothing for me. Sheffield had going on for 150 of the early all Leyland PD2s (but all Highbridge) as well as numerous Faringtons and 12 of the superb last version. As an AEC man from an early age, I always loved these PD2s with an almost silent tick-over (and a distinctive beat) and superbly finished bodywork. Luckily when Leyland gave up on coachwork in 1954, Sheffield continued to buy these wonderful beasts with top quality bodywork by Roe and Weymann (pre Orion). Similar Roe and Weymann bodywork also sat atop Regent IIIs and Regent Vs – the old dual sourcing in action.
David Oldfield
27/07/12 – 08:41
Well, our anonymous photographer has produced another gem. I, for one, never knew Newcastle had blue buses. Equally, I once photographed a red Bury bus at a rally. When I reported this to my father, he said he remembered them in red, and they had changed to green post-war.
Pete Davies
27/07/12 – 15:42
Pete, I’m pleased to say that a preserved example of Newcastle’s all Leyland PD2’s ‘LVK 123’ is still alive and well and is part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection, it’s a 1948 highbridge example and has been restored to it’s original blue and cream livery, as per the Guy’s in the picture. At the beginning of 1949 ‘half way through production of the order’ the livery was changed to the yellow and cream with maroon line out and red wheels which most of us will be more familiar with. I’m not sure if the low bridge vehicle in the picture pre dates that, but it wasn’t unusual for some block batch registrations to be held back and issued to later vehicles, I suspect that’s the case here and this is from the 1949 batch, I think it took about two or three years to change the whole fleet and being the newest I would think the blue PD’s would have been at the back of the queue
Ronnie Hoye
27/07/12 – 15:42
Newcastle had blue buses until the nineteen fifties the Northern Coachbuilders bodied AEC Regents being the first yellow buses delivered new One of the LVK batch of PD2s has been restored to the blue. In contrast Newcastles trolleys were yellow from the start.
Chris Hough
27/07/12 – 15:43
The photograph is a real gem and illustrates the difference between wartime utility bodywork and the standards on the return to peace. In 1942 Newcastle Corporation received 2 Guy Arab I with Massey H30/26R bodywork numbered 245-46 JTN 505-6. They were withdrawn in 1950. Another 2 Arab I with bodywork by Strachans L27/28R were received in 1943, numbered 247-48, JTN 607-8. These are recorded as being withdrawn in 1950, with 247 going to Darlington Corporation as a driver training vehicle. The Leyland Titans 6-11, LVK 6-11, were new in late 1949 and would have been among the first motorbuses delivered in cadmium yellow livery, which hitherto had been applied to trolleybuses only. I hope this information is helpful and thank you for posting some wonderful photographs.
Kevin Hey
28/07/12 – 08:53
As mentioned elsewhere and by others in these pages, it really is amazing what previously unknown (or forgotten) information surfaces in response to the publication of a photograph. Keep up the good work, gents!
Pete Davies
28/07/12 – 12:11
As Kevin points out, Newcastle had two fleet colours, Trolley buses were yellow and motor buses blue, that all changed in 1949 when all vehicles adopted the trolleybus livery, still with me?. Some time later all the fleet numbers were changed, existing trolley buses up to 99 were renumbered starting with a 3 in front, 100 became 400, and any new vehicles carried on from their with 628 being the last, this meant that motorbuses were also renumbered and 359 pictured above became 11. Confusing isn’t it?
Ronnie Hoye
28/07/12 – 12:19
The lowbridge Arab 1s with Strachan bodies supplied to Newcastle were part of a batch originally intended for London Transport, before they successfully switched the requirement to CWA6 Daimlers D1-6. Bradford got one too, No.467. Not sure where the others went without looking the details up.
John Whitaker
28/07/12 – 15:54
Ronnie, I think that the pre-war and wartime trolleybus fleet was renumbered in 1946 and the fleet number for the beginning of the postwar trolleybuses began at 443 – although the first trolleybuses to be received after the war were the 20 BUT Q1s starting at fleet number 479. The motorbus fleet was not re-numbered enbloc, although some renumbering of batches occurred. In March 1963 6-11, LVK 6-11 became 354-9 in order to vacate numbers for the impending delivery of 25 Leyland Atlanteans that became 1-25, 1-25 JVK, with bodywork split between Alexander and Weymann as was customary practice with Newcastle Atlanteans until 1966. Similarly,in March 1966 Leyland Titans 115-36, LVK 115-36 were renumbered to 415-36 to create space for a batch of 28 Weymann bodied Leyland Atlanteans 106-33, KBB 106-33D. The remainder of the 1966 delivery was 26 Alexander bodied Atlanteans which became 239-66, KBB 239-66D. I believe that these batches were originally to have been numbered in a single series 401-56, JVK 401-56D. I hope this clarifies things. As you say, it was confusing! John’s comment about the Strachans bodied Guys being part of a batch originally intended for London is very interesting. The topic of wartime deliveries and the role of the Regional Traffic Commissioners and Ministry of War Transport is one that is ripe for studying.
Kevin Hey
28/07/12 – 19:10
Expanding on John W’s comments, LT was allocated eleven unbuilt lowbridge Guys from Strachans and four from Northern Counties. It only needed thirteen. Strachans bodies did not impress them, from LGOC days, and NC were an unknown quantity. LT found that they were three inches too high than their preferred height. Strachan offered to build the bodies to LT’s required height, but this would have entailed eliminating one step from the staircase, making one of the remainder too high for comfort. LT then wanted to build thirteen of its own lowbridge STL bodies for the Guy chassis (like the earlier, unfrozen ones) but was forbidden to. It was the two surplus Guy/Strachans to LT’s needs which went to Newcastle, in May 1943, fleet numbers 247/248 (JTN 607/608). Both vehicles were reconditioned after the war, but were disposed of in 1950.
Chris Hebbron
28/07/12 – 19:12
I agree Kevin; wartime allocations were fascinating! This is another complicated story, well told in Ken Blacker`s book, “London`s Utility Buses”. London managed to persuade the powers that be, to allow them to build some STL pattern lowbridge bodies, and this enabled them to avoid the 13 Guys mentioned. Some were actually bodied by NCME, but the Strachan variety were disposed of as follows:- Potteries. JEH 472/3 Aldershot & Dist. EHO 695 Red & White EWO 484 Skills (Nottingham). GTU 427 Bradford Corporation. DKY 467 South Shields Corporation. CU 4549 Newcastle C.T. JTN 607/608. The Bradford bus finished up as a “school bus” (tuition vehicle), and thus lasted well into the 1950s, and consequently into my memories.
John Whitaker
29/07/12 – 11:03
Sorry, Kevin, I got it the wrong way round, but why make it so complicated when the whole thing could have been done by adding a letter to the beginning or end of the existing number. A simple system could use F – R – S – T. ‘F’ could be either front entrance or front engine, the same would apply to ‘R’ – ‘S; would be single deck and ‘T’ Trolleybus, but I’ve just seen a flaw in that idea, you don’t need a university degree to work it out, or am I just being cynical?
Ronnie Hoye
30/07/12 – 10:58
Ronnie, an interesting idea. Most municipal fleets used a pure numeric system for fleet numbering rather than alphabet-numeric. Two fleets that used the latter were Glasgow and Liverpool, although Liverpool began the process of moving to pure numeric a short while before being transferred to Merseyside PTE. Stockton-on-Tees began using alphabet-numeric some years before being merged with Middlesbrough and TRTB to form Teesside Municipal Transport. There may well have been others but I can’t think of any. Still, if I have missed some then I’m sure that someone will add a comment or two to complete the picture. The renumbering of some of the Newcastle motorbus fleet in the mid-1960s was a consequence of the very large numbers of motorbuses that were delivered in a very short period of time for converting the trolleybus system to motorbus operation. By 1954 the motorbus numbers had reached 354 and the next deliveries in 1956 began at 137 (after the 1948 high-bridge Leyland Titans that ended at 136). As an aside, in 1957 this necessitated renumbering the Daimler CVD single-deckers 164-73 to 364-73 so that new deliveries of motorbuses could continue to be numbered in sequence. By 1962 this sequence had reached 238 and there was a gap of 12 numbers vacant to the start of the 1949 batch of AEC Regents that started at 251. The undertaking had ordered 25 Leyland Atlanteans for delivery in 1963 and these were numbered from 1 upwards. By 1965 this sequence had reached 105 and was encroaching on the 1948 high-bridge Titans that began at 115. Of course, even renumbering the Titans to be 415-36 was insufficient to accommodate the entire batch of 56 Atlanteans due in 1966 and half of them was numbered 106-33, and the other half 239-66. I would be interested to hear of the reason for the original plan to number these 401-56 not proceeding. Finally, a word for John. When I joined Bradford City Transport immediately prior to the formation of the West Yorkshire PTE, the driving school was in the capable hands of Inspector Harold Gobby, although for the life of me I cannot remember where it was based. The conducting school, which was based in the basement of the Forster Square offices, was in the hands of Inspector Joseph (Joe) Straughton. Ah, happy days!
Kevin Hey
30/07/12 – 16:02
You should be able to tell us a tale or two, Kevin. I suppose it was Leylands in Inspector Gobby’s day, although one of the Crossleys replaced 467 for a time in 1958. Was the trolleybus driving department under the same control? I left Bradford in 1968, but it will always be my favourite fleet!
John Whitaker
31/07/12 – 05:50
During my time as an Instructor at Yorkshire Rider/First Halifax, the earlier pages of the PSV Test Results Book showed several tests conducted for WYPTE/Metro Calderdale in the mid-seventies by an examiner called H. Gobi.
John Stringer
23/12/12 – 08:05
Further to the discussion on Newcastle Corporation Leyland bodied PD 2/3s here are two photographs I took of LVK 123 at the 1977 Dunbar Rally.
Gerald Walker
23/12/12 – 13:44
Kevin is more of an authority on this subject than I am, but if my information is correct, LVK 123 is actually older than LVK 11. Newcastle Corporation placed an order for these Leyland’s to be delivered in 1948/9. Most of them were the high bridge type, but the order also included 6 of the low bridge variants. Registration numbers were issued as a block, but as is often the case with large orders the vehicles are not necessarily delivered in numerical order. Up to 1949 Newcastle had two liveries, motor buses were blue and trolley buses yellow. Whilst these vehicles were being built it was decided to standardise the whole fleet in the trolleybus livery, but by that time part of this order had been completed and among others, 123 was delivered in blue, the remainder, including LVK 11, were delivered in yellow. Unless the normal repaint process was accelerated to speed up the livery change, 123 would have been blue for about three years
Ronnie Hoye
26/12/12 – 07:16
A question for Ronnie – and others! – about an anomaly in Newcastle post-war panel numberings, triggered by Ronnie’s comments about allocation of registrations. Newcastle ‘started again at 1’ with panel numberings after the war, with a batch of five CWA6s taking numbers 1-5 (albeit delivered over a three-year period, 1, 2 and 5 in 1945, 4 in 1946 and 3 in 1947, all with second-hand pre-war MCCW or PR bodies). Another batch of fourteen CWA6s with Massey bodies came next, in 1945 and 1946, but numbered 13-26. The numerical gap between these batches wasn’t filled until 1949, by the low-bridge Leylands 6-11. By this time other deliveries had taken numbering in the new series beyond the 100 mark. Does anyone know the background to this? It’s often puzzled me.
Tony Fox
26/12/12 – 15:42
Never having seen anything on paper I cant answer that one, Tony. It must have made sense to someone, but Newcastle seemed to make a simple system of numbers based on the registration far more complicated than it need be, some vehicles retained their number the whole time they were part of the fleet whilst others were renumbered at least once, and in the end some fleet numbers bore no relation to the registration. Speaking for myself, I would have used a simple pre or suffix system of letters to denote either vehicle type or the year they joined the fleet, that way you could still use the registration numbers as part of the fleet number and never need to change it, regardless of how many vehicles you had. London Transport for example
Ronnie Hoye
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
09/09/14 – 18:00
I remember the so called “Blue Buses” Daimlers very well. They had preselector gearboxes which must have been a boon for the drivers and low down on the inside left a Notek Fog lamp – very famed and desirable by many! – which was very necessary in the old days of coal fires and heavy industry which caused very extreme smog on Tyneside/North of England. Another unique feature of the older Daimler buses with registrations from FVK 197 on was they had next to the front destination screen a 5 inch blue light! No other Newcastle bus photos? I remember so well the Haymarket bus station with a real mixture of buses/coaches from Northern – United Automobile Services and of course Newcastle Corporation Transport!
Stuart Beveridge
10/09/14 – 07:00
Kevin H, John W, John S – I recall that when the Bradford trolleys finished in 1972 it was reported that the last trainee to pass his trolleybus driving test did so a few weeks earlier, and the examiner was an Inspector Gobbi – at least, that’s how I think his name was recorded at the time. Gobby, Gobbi, or Gobi, I presume it’s the same gentleman being referred to.
David Call
10/09/14 – 18:00
In WYPTE days this gentleman had carried out a number of PSV Tests for Calderdale-based trainees, and his name was recorded in the Driving School’s Test Results record book as H. Gobi.
John Stringer
10/09/14 – 18:00
In his original post Ronnie mentions he can’t identify the body builder of the Guy utilities and, though Kevin Hey lists the two Strachens bodied vehicles Newcastle had, there is no direct tie up to the photo though it is obvious that the bodies are not by Massey, who built the first two delivered. To state the B******g obvious, to quote Monty Python, the Arabs in the photo are the Strachans bodied examples, JTN 607 and JTN 608, close examination shows JTN 608 is on the left.
Sheffield Corporation 1952 Leyland Titan PD2/12 Mann Egerton H30/26R
There have been many previous references to Sheffield PD2s including those bodied by Leyland, Weymann/MCW, Roe and ECW but as far as I know, the small but rare order for two buses from Mann Egerton hasn’t been mentioned. These buses enjoyed the usual thirteen year life with Sheffield prior to selling on. Tom Robinson of the Sheffield Transport Study Group comments and I quote “362 went via a Barnsley scrapman to Paton’s of Renfrew. Paton was so pleased with the bus he immediately tried to buy 361 which was at the same scrapyard. Alas it was in the course of being scrapped. In time ex 362 was cut down to single deck. The result of a fire, I think, and used as a tow wagon. They really were impressive and heavy vehicles. The saloon woodwork was especially opulent.” Keith Beeden advises that although the original contract called for H30/26R, steps were taken shortly after delivery to change this to H32/26R possibly because Roe were seating H33/25R on their deliveries at the time
The Roe PD2s were the first of many bodies from the Crossgate works. They were NWE 586-594 but were delivered earlier, in 1951. I suspect the reason for both bodies being higher seating capacity was that they were (Sheffield’s) earliest vehicles to 27′ rather 26′ length. Despite many comments to the contrary, even by eminent experts, there was a standard – but not standardised – Sheffield bus. [During most of the ‘fifties it was either a Regent or Titan with either a Weymann or Roe body.] It changed with time and the demise of certain companies but a lot of the post war interest was with the “distress purchases” when, especially Weymann, could not meet demand. Occasionally the distress purchases turned out to be gems – true of these two Mann Egertons. There are two magnificent green London Transport Ts on the Rally Circuit (9.6 powered Regal III – a single deck RT) which attest to the beauty and quality of Mann Egerton’s work. Mann Egerton were better known as the Norwich Austin dealer and they bodied many early post war Austins as small coaches, but the London Transport work did no harm to their reputation and their balance sheet.
Very handsome vehicle, especially in that fine livery. Had no idea that Mann Egerton had ever built d/deckers. Sad that 361 was broken up after such a short life: if they were heavy then they must have been pretty robust too.
Ian Thompson
14/09/12 – 06:29
Ian, they are supposed to be the only deckers they ever built. They did get as far as building underfloor coaches as well – including a pair of AEC Regal IVs for Creamline of Bordon Hants.
Stephen. Can’t find 362 on flickr.
David Oldfield
14/09/12 – 06:32
They were certainly unusual looking, and stood out, especially with that slightly recessed panel at the front where the destination boxes were, which was unique in the fleet. But to my mind, they weren’t nearly as handsome as the OWB-registered PD2/10’s (656-667) alongside which they ran regularly on the 69 service joint with Rotherham Corporation. I seem to recall the two Mann Egerton’s sat down at the back end quite noticeably, especially when they had a good load on, but perhaps that was just a perception. Ironically, one of the PD2/10’s, 666, was cut down to a gritter/towing vehicle by STD, just like Paton’s ended up doing with the former 362, and in its sheared off form, G56, as it became, was kept busy for many years, considerably longer than the fourteen years it served as a bus, towing all kinds of disgraced rear-engined machines back to Central Works from wherever they’d decided to expire. And it always looked quite happy doing it!
Dave Careless
14/09/12 – 06:34
A smart bus, indeed – but does anyone know why these had the sunken destination screen box? I know some pre-war and early post-war Sheffield buses had this feature, but it was by no means universal. It would be interesting to speculate that, had Mann Egerton ever tried to sell d/d’s to LT following on from their successful PS1s, then this large screen box area would be almost the same proportions as that used for the roof-box RT!
Paul Haywood
14/09/12 – 06:35
A quicker link to the ex- 362 picture Stephen. Debateable whether the Patons livery does the bus any favours though. www.flickr.com/
John Darwent
14/09/12 – 06:37
Is it just me, or can anyone else see a distinct resemblance to Roberts bodywork (also very heavy!) sct61.org.uk/da86 ?
Peter Williamson
14/09/12 – 06:14
Apparently Glasgow Corporation FYS 494 fleet number D66 was a Daimler CVD6 with a Mann Egerton H30/26R body, new in 1951, scrapped 1960 and rebodied with an Alexander body from FYS 488 fleet number D60 which was a Daimler CD650, (10.6 litre with power steering) but chassis scrapped, not a very popular bus that one.
Spencer
14/09/12 – 06:39
Glasgow Corporation received a Mann Egerton bodied Daimler CVD6 double-decker in 1951 – D66 (FYS 494).
David Call
15/09/12 – 07:08
You’ll be hard pressed to find many of today’s featherweight Eurobuses fit to be preserved in future years and yet in the fifties the professionals were complaining about buses being too heavy. [Please compare fuel mpg of a fifties half-cab with a Euro 5 diesel.] Why do people eulogise the Mann Egertons and their contemporary Roberts Regent IIIs – let alone their mainstream Weymann and Roe cousins? They were beautifully made, well made and looked good. The lightweight Orion and similar PRV/Roe offerings were the reaction to these heavy bodies. I ask you, what would you prefer?
The recessed destination display was, indeed, a pre-war Sheffield feature. There are echoes in the 1949/50 Cravens/Regent IIIs – featured on this site earlier this year. The most interesting manifestation was on the immediate pre-war all Leyland TD5cs, which had to have non-standard small upper deck screens to accommodate it. It was also a feature of the 1936 Cravens/TD4cs and “broke” the blue line under the upper deck windows. Weymanns managed to get the display in without either recessing the display or breaking the line. Some post-war bodies managed to “avoid the line” in the Weymann manner but most encroached into the line surrounding the number display without breaking it. Significantly, the 1953/4 PD2/Weymanns avoided the line, like their predecessors, but the subsequent 1954 Regent III/Weymanns “encroached” in the normal post war fashion. Hours of scrutinising photographs has not yielded a satisfactory answer to the question, Why?
Dave. Couldn’t agree more. 656-667 were my favourite PD2s.
David Oldfield
15/09/12 – 07:09
In Classic Bus 110 I asked if Sheffield was the only order for M.E doubledeckers. The reply, and a follow-up in Classic Bus 112 will probably interest those who have responded above.
Les Dickinson
15/09/12 – 07:11
The reason that Sheffield ordered the two Mann Egerton bodies is quite interesting. In November 1949 a tender was advertised for 30 double deck buses, complete chassis and bodies or chassis only or bodies only. At the time, all the STD PD2/1’s delivered since 1947, carried Leyland bodywork. The Leyland management advised the transport committee to “look elsewhere for bodywork” In consequence, an intended order for 30 buses to the forthcoming new regulations of 27′ x 7’6″ was varied. The result was that an order for 10 NCB, 2 Roe and 2 Mann Egerton bodies were contracted. Surprisingly, Leyland offered to supply 16 complete vehicles to the existing 26’x 7’6″ PD2/1 standard. Unfortunately, NCB ceased trading, and Roe were awarded another seven bodies. The balance of the outstanding 11 (9 Roe 2 Mann Egerton) were built on the PD2/12 27’x 8′ chassis, authorised in 1950. This batch of 11 replaced 13 trams for the City to Fulwood tramway abandonment. Therefore the original 30 require was reduced to 27. Quite a complicated situation!
Keith Beeden
15/09/12 – 07:13
I understood that Newcastle Corporation also had some Daimler CW’s rebodied by Mann Egerton
Stephen Bloomfield
16/09/12 – 06:50
So, Keith, Leyland were anticipating pulling out of coach-building that early and at the same time were already showing signs of their later take it or leave it attitude. Thanks for the insight.
David Oldfield
16/09/12 – 06:52
Stephen You may or may not remember me from our time together at BCT, but that’s another story.
Newcastle Corporation had a batch of 5 Daimler CWA6 vehicles delivered between 1945-47 that received new Mann Egerton bodies in October 1950. They had been delivered new with second-hand bodies transferred from 1931 vehicles.
Kevin Hey
14/12/12 – 16:17
It is true that Newcastle had Mann Egerton Deckers , there were I believe three on Daimler chassis, possibly rebodies of chassis that had originally been fitted with pre war Metro Cammel bodies taken from scrapped earlier chassis, and also Glasgow had one Mann Egerton bodied Daimler, D66 I believe
Mr Anon
05/07/14 – 17:34
Mr Anon, Newcastle had 5 Mann Egerton bodied Daimlers, they were fleet numbers 1 to 5, JVK 421 to 425.
BCK 367C started life as FRN 740 a 1954 PD2/10 with a Leyland H32/29R body which has been rebuilt to a PD3 format. She now resides in the North West Museum of Road Transport in St Helens, but was in need of some attention when I saw her during the summer. She has retained the Leyland outline to her bodywork, though some of the panels may have been relocated in the conversion and others have been added in order to lengthen her. Some visitors to the site may be thinking, “This isn’t in Preston!” Correct. She’s a long way from home, on Itchen Bridge in Southampton. The occasion was a rally to celebrate Southampton Corporation Transport Centenary, and the date was 6 May 1979. The ‘Union Flag on wheels’ following her is an Ipswich Fleetline in overall advertising livery.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
09/10/12 – 18:02
There were three distinctive types of conversions carried out by Preston between 1959 and 1967. Eight 7’6″ PD2/10s were converted and all bore the Preston devised chassis designation of PD3/6 – a designation that Leyland Motors accepted. All eight vehicles received new PD3 chassis frames, Forward entrances replaced rear platforms and much of the original outline and coachwork was retained. Between 1959 and 1963 four lowbridge bodies were converted. “The Leyland Bus” suggests that they were converted to highbridge layout at the same time as the road under the railway bridge that had necessitated their purchase had been lowered. In 1963 two highbridge vehicles were converted followed by two more, one in 1965 as illustrated above and a final conversion in 1967. The last two were widened to 8′. The classic Colin Bailey body outline is unmistakable – the only jarring note being the insertion of the short bay immediately behind the first window on the top deck rather than amidships. The original bodies had the more attractive version of Leyland’s final double deck design with recessed window pans and radiused corners top and bottom which were retained and which make the bus look as modern as anything else produced in the 1960s. Preston thus ended up with the only 7’6″ PD3s, the only forward entrance Leyland double deck bodies and the only 30′ Leyland double deck bodies.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/10/12 – 18:05
I submitted a view of DRN 308 in “more or less” original form, as a companion to this, seen while on training duties in Fleetwood in 1975. Unfortunately, Peter found it too dark to be used.
Pete Davies
10/10/12 – 09:40
I believe that Dreadnought Coaches of Alnwick has one. I once saw it in the dark returning from Wedding duties.
Philip Carlton
10/10/12 – 09:41
I wonder what one of the 7’6″ PD3s would have looked like with a St. Helens style PD3A front on as these were 7’6″ wide and most body builders had to taper the front of their 8ft wide bodies to accommodate them.
Eric Bawden
10/10/12 – 12:08
An interesting prospect, Eric, which would have qualified this class for an additional “unique” feature over those Phil B mentions above!
Pete Davies
10/10/12 – 12:09
Eric, A quick look through “The Leyland Bus” photos of St Helens front vehicles shows that some, rather than most, bodybuilders tapered their front to fit. The more traditional builders (such as Massey) only offered a taper but with other builders the width was at the discretion of the operator.
Phil Blinkhorn
11/10/12 – 07:31
I remember the Southampton Centenary Weekend in May 1979 very well. I was working at Derby City Transport at the time and myself and the late Gerald Truran, the Chief Engineer, (and Author of ‘Brown Bombers’ the History of Neath and Cardiff Luxury Coaches) entered Derby’s Foden Double Decker Fleet No. 101 in the event. Sorry but the Foden does not qualify for this site. The drive down was slow but uneventful until just before Winchester when she started giving cause for concern. Don’t ask me what, it is a long time ago and I am no mechanic. So a detour was made off the A34 in to Sutton Scotney where a visit was made to the long gone Taylor’s Coaches premises. The staff and management were most accommodating as is usually the case when Bus men need help from other Bus men, and a repair was made (NO charge) and we were soon on our way. One thing I remember about the visit was an old Bedford lurking in one of the many buildings. I made inquiries and was told it was a Bedford with a Plaxton Consort body and had come from Comfy Coaches of Farnham. Unfortunately, and much to my regret, I never took a photograph but I have found an image of it at this link. By the way, we did not win anything at the Rally but it was a great weekend, and the trip back was uneventful.
Stephen Howarth
11/10/12 – 08:58
With regard to Stephen’s visit to Sutton Scotney, Taylor’s had their Bedford OB HAA 874 in this same rally. It must have been a rare outing for her, as she was using the company’s trade plate.
Pete Davies
14/10/12 – 08:00
This is the ex Preston 2 (PRN 761) rebuild currently with Dreadnaught Coaches of Alnwick, referred to by Philip Carlton. It is seen at their depot in June of this year, on a typical (!) summer’s day.
Bob Gell
21/05/14 – 12:29
The PD2 version of No.61 was H30/28R when new. It was reseated to H32/29R in 11/1958 as part of a rolling programme to increase the seating capacity on all the PD2/10s. All four highbridge conversions were done to the same width of 8ft. There were no 7ft 6ins wide conversions. The four lowbridge buses were increased in height fom 13ft 6ins to 14ft 2ins. As previously said they were used alongside the lowbridge PD1s on the Ashton A service which passed under the height/width restricted railway bridge on Fylde Road. The road surface was lowered in 1957 thereafter permitting highbridge buses to pass underneath in the centre of the road.
Mike Rhodes
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
05/09/14 – 07:30
I was the owner and driver of 61 on the Southampton Centenary event, having driven it down from Somerset through Dorset and via zig-zag hill ! Lovely to see this picture, and it shows what good condition the bus was in at that time. Unfortunately it now languishes in the N W Transport Museum in St’Helens, looking rather unloved – no-one seems interested in it anymore, despite my offers to help fund its restoration. Any other Preston fans out there who would be keen to see it restored ? If so, leave a name and e-mail address, please.
Nick Sommer
Your email address will not be posted on site to avoid spammers, but I will pass it on to Nick.
The recent posting of a Sheffield Mann Egerton bodied PD2 fleet number 362 provided some interesting information on new bus orders about that time and here is one of the Roe bodied PD2/12 ordered at the same time as the Mann Egerton pair. These were very elegant looking vehicles with deep windows in both saloons and I think looked especially handsome in the C T Humpidge era livery with three blue bands. Interesting to note how Roe incorporated a variation of the standard Sheffield destination layout – probably necessary because of the reduced depth available because of the afore mentioned deep windows. I well recall these buses replacing the Fulwood via Hunters Bar trams as the first programmed tram replacement scheme in January 1952. The new 88 bus route ran between the City and Fulwood with the City terminus being uniquely located in Eyre Street outside the Motor Vehicle Licensing Office (near the Central Library). This continued I believe until March 1954 when the 88 became a cross City service between Fulwood and Malin Bridge at the same time as the 81/82 bus routes replaced trams between Ecclesall and Middlewood. Here is 391 in later life about to turn into Herries Road Depot on a summer evening in July 1967. The batch of nine were withdrawn the following year and 391 ended up inevitably with a Barnsley breaker.
I am, of course, predisposed and prejudiced in this post. Magnificent body, excellent operator – and pretty good chassis!!! I never quite got to terms with the “heavy on blue” livery that all Roes were delivered in and generally preferred this scheme – which was always on repaint. Nevertheless, I also felt that these PD2s looked slightly bald in this scheme. Never actually rode on one and didn’t realise it was originally a City only service from Eyre Street. Only used the 60 to Crimicar Lane in my childhood – the 88 didn’t go up the hill!
David Oldfield
14/10/12 – 10:41
What I could never understand about the Sheffield fleet is this: all the views I have, bought ones or my own work relating to the bus fleet, show this style of livery. With the trams, however, and there are several preserved at Crich, if it was delivered in livery “A” it retained that livery throughout. If it was delivered in “B”, it retained “B” throughout. Only the 1953 ‘Roberts’ trams had this style. Can anyone explain the apparent reluctance to modernise the livery on the trams, when it seems to have been done on the buses?
Pete Davies
15/10/12 – 07:32
Pete, you seem to have an inaccurate memory – or information – about Sheffield livery. This scheme was introduced in about 1936 for the Domed Standard (tram) Cars and extended to AEC Regent/Weymann buses. It was extended to all buses eventually, pre-war, including Craven and Leyland bodied TD5 Titans. The livery was perpetuated after the war on the Roberts trams – the only trams bought after the Domed Standards and, of course, the last “first generation” trams. It was also the standard bus livery except, for some inexplicable reason, all Roe deckers, Leyland Farington deckers and the final “not” Farington Leyland body (which were delivered in the short-lived and disastrous green experimental livery). The Roe and Leyland bodies had far more blue paint but most, if not all, Roes were painted in the scheme shown at first overhaul. Yet another superb colour shot by Ian.
David Oldfield
15/10/12 – 10:00
Thank you, David. The source of my information seems to be incorrect!
Pete Davies
15/10/12 – 17:22
The whole vehicle is pure and classic Roe, except for the front upper deck windows which look a little odd, the way that the top edge looks lower than the side windows. No doubt it’s just the evening sun shining on the white dome but it made me look twice, I thought some alteration had been done. Still a superb bus though!
Chris Barker
15/10/12 – 17:23
And don’t forget the variant of the grey roof, David, which buses tended to acquire on first repaint. I’ve heard it said that the grey was made up in Queens Road by mixing the dregs of the cream and blue paint tins, but I’m not sure how correct that is. I think the practice ended after Chaceley Humpidge became GM in 1961, as he wasn’t a fan of the grey roof. Personally, I think the ‘Farington’ PD2’s in their ‘Roe’ style livery looked better than ever with the roof painted grey. Oddly enough, the domed roof trams that inaugurated the ‘new’ livery had a variation of the grey roof, or at least acquired one eventually; perhaps in wartime in an effort to make the cars less visible from the air? If the grey was in fact a combination of the blue and cream, perhaps it was a conscious effort on the part of the paint shop to not waste a drop!!
Dave Careless
16/10/12 – 05:29
Dave, you are absolutely correct about the grey paint – actually called “smudge”. It gave a certain dignity to an already super livery. I do not know, and to my shame have not as yet bothered to find out, whether there was a policy about the smudge. My feeling is that it was applied before entry into service (whether or not by the coachbuilder or by STD) and lost on overhaul/repaint. I certainly feel that all the Weymanns (classic and Orion alike) on 26′ and 27′ chassis entered service with smudge roofs. The Domed cars probably likewise.
David Oldfield
16/10/12 – 11:45
I don’t know whether there was a wartime edict to paint bus roofs a less obtrusive colour . LPTB went from silver to grey to brown quickly. However, the dirt falling onto tram and trolleybus roofs from poles and wiring might well have been a consideration not to change back later.
Chris Hebbron
16/10/12 – 16:52
Grey roof painting was widely adopted on the outbreak of WW2. It was kept by many operations for a long time afterwards. For instance Manchester had its 1946 deliveries painted in this manner. When it converted its orders to 8′ wide vehicles they appeared with red roofs, the 7′ 6″ vehicles retained the grey so the bus washers knew how to set washer width. Few 7’6″ vehicles appeared in the “overall” red scheme but by that time the washers set themselves automatically. Stockport cut back its grey from 1946 but retained the centre of the roof in grey for all deliveries up to and including the first batch of St Helen’s fronted PD2s in 1962. Frank Brimelow specified translucent roofs thereafter but all re-sprays of grey roofed vehicles received the grey until SELNEC took over.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/10/12 – 08:30
On the subject of grey or other colour for the roof, one of my former colleagues was a descendent of B C Baker of Birmingham City Transport. Birmingham had a sandy colour for their bus roofs, apparently as camouflage. My colleague suggested it was to confuse the Afrika Corps!
Pete Davies
17/10/12 – 08:31
This bus and its windows is reminiscent of Roe’s 8ft Doncaster 121 and 122 which were sold to Blue Ensign after 4 years because either they didn’t fit the streets (official) or the washer (Tony Peart). Did they also have the cranked seats and “high level” rear platform? It seems that Roe had a sudden urge to innovate…?
Joe
17/10/12 – 11:24
No, Joe, that was a Doncaster thing. The vehicles you mention are closer to STD 18/19; 113-119 – the 1952 four bay bodied Regent IIIs (my equal favourite with 1325 – 1349). Incidentally, Charles Halls has these PD2s (386 – 394) as 1951 and 361/2 (the Mann Egertons) as 1952. I always took this to be correct and that the Roes were late ’51 and the Mann Egertons early ’52.
David Oldfield
17/10/12 – 18:04
One further thought with respect to Sheffield’s penchant for grey roofs, a style that became a thing of the past after C.T. Humpidge took over. It occurs to me that it must have seemed a bit like deja vu to the new General Manager when he got settled into the chair at Sheffield in 1961. Bradford’s fleet had grey roofs into the early 1950’s, when he took over the top job in that city, after which the roofs on the buses eventually became blue on his watch. When he took over the reins at Sheffield, and saw the tins of “smudge” on the shelves at Queens Road, he must have felt he was starting all over again!
Dave Careless
18/10/12 – 07:46
The Fulwood via Hunters Bar tram route that these buses took over from was converted to bus operation (service 88) on 5th January 1952 so this batch would almost certainly have been delivered in late 1951. I can only recall one Sheffield bus with cranked seats and this was all Leyland 651 of the 1949 batch (and then I think the lower deck only). Can the Sheffield people out there confirm this and what was the reason?
Ian Wild
18/10/12 – 10:44
Chieftain Buses of Hamilton acquired a second-hand ex-Sheffield TD5 Craven in the late 40s. BWB ###. The engine in this bus sounded different to any other TD5 I had come across. It surely could not have been a petrol engine? Any enlightenment?
Jim Hepburn
18/10/12 – 14:37
Leeds had one AEC Regent with staggered seats 700 NUM 700 a 1950 show exhibit which was LCTs second 8ft wide bus I have a vague feeling that these were removed and replaced with normal seating towards the end of its LCT life.
Chris Hough
19/10/12 – 06:32
The Sheffield livery variation on the Roe bodied vehicles has long been a talking point. The whole process was caused by the changes to the Leyland Farington PD2/1’s delivered in 1949. The mouldings below the lower deck windows were discontinued, along with upper beading. Leyland asked for a simplified livery in lieu of cream and three blue bands, for the high cost of lining out would be excessive. AEC Regent Weymann FWJ 808 was used to trial a simpler paint style. With a slight modification,this livery was adopted for the large intake of Farington PD2’s. When the Roe order for PD2/12’s was placed, a similar situation resulted. The narrow lower deck waist rail would have unbalanced the lower deck blue band proportions, therefore a decision was made to adopt the Farington style. The new GM C.T.Humpidge took a dislike to the Roe livery in 1962 and repaints received the standard livery in due course. Remarkably, none of the Farington fleet were so changed in livery style.
Keith Beeden
24/11/12 – 06:50
Referring to Jim Hepburn’s post of 18th October, as the BWA to BWE range of registrations was limited to 1935, I would imagine that the vehicle he refers to would be a Leyland TD4C/Cravens which used the torque converter rather than a convention gearbox and was commonly known as ‘Gearless Bus’. The sound produced, as I remember, from like vehicles surviving into the 50’s resembled a long monotonous droning noise especially from a standing start.
Just to add to David Oldfield’s response to Pete Davies on the subject of liveries. For Pete to understand that trams delivered in Liveries A or B would retain that livery throughout is erroneous. Following the standardisation of Azure Blue and Cream circa 1936, numerous older trams previously wearing the Prussian Blue and Cream were repainted into the Azure Blue livery. In fact, one such tram, namely 150, delivered in Prussian Blue in 1930 was repainted into the ill-fated Green livery in 1952 and then Azure Blue shortly afterwards.
As regards the subject of the post, PD2 No. 391, my humble opinion is that it looks absolutely dreadful in the Humpidge interpretation of the standard livery. As Keith Beedon has explained, the Farrington style livery was applied to the Roe designs for good reason and looked nicely balanced on these elegant vehicles. The painting out of the dividing bar on the front destination box just added to the desecration but credit is due for restoring the cream roof. I would refer all to C.C.Hall’s ‘Sheffield Transport’ Page 263 to see just how superb 389 of the same batch looked when new. (I’m sure many of you will have this book but if not and you are ‘Up North’, there is a copy in the splendid ‘Search Engine’ Reference Library at the National Railway Museum at York)
John Darwent
18/12/12 – 17:37
Referring to Ian Wild’s post of 18-10-2012, Keith Beeden advises that Sheffield all Leyland 651 was fitted with cranked seats on both decks. These were supplied by Siddall and Hilton. Here is an extract from Commercial Motor of 8th December 1950- Article titled Innovation Components and Accessories “More room with less seat” is the object of the new Sidhil-Morseat, manufactured by Siddall and Hilton, Ltd.. Sowerby Bridge, Yorks. Employing a cleverly cranked frame, this service-bus seat enables two passengers to sit comfortably side by side without encroaching on each other or on the gangway. The outer half of the seat, apart from being set back, as in a normal cranked seat, is also turned slightly inward, so that the “gangway” passenger’s elbows are out of the way of the inside” passenger. A recess in the centre of the seat provides additional elbow-room, enabling both passengers to get at pockets for their fares without the usual difficulty. Further, each person enjoys the full width of backrest and the “inner” passenger can more easily leave his seat without disturbing his neighbour. With this design, the conductor can move more easily about the bus, and is able, with less difficulty, to collect the fares from the window-side passenger.
John Darwent
19/12/12 – 07:29
Siddall & Hilton are still in business today in Halifax producing wire products, hospital beds and other ancillary equipment for the healthcare industry.
Eric Bawden
03/08/13 – 14:25
Long time since I visited this site , but thanks to John Darwent for info. on BWB Craven. By this time, it had a conventional gearbox but still sounded unusual. Now another ex. Sheffield bus was WJ 9094. Any info.?
Jim Hepburn
04/08/13 – 10:40
WJ 9094 was a Leyland TD3c, fleet number 94, Cravens H31/24R. Arrived 1934, withdrawn 1941. Think chassis number was 3606.
Les Dickinson
06/08/13 – 06:05
Thanks Les about info. on TD3c WJ 9094. This bus was converted to a conventional gearbox and served with J. Laurie`s of Hamilton`s “Chieftain” buses plying between Hamilton and East Kilbride, and was not withdrawn till 1954.
Jim Hepburn
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/10/13 – 08:09
Referring to my post of 18-12-12 about the cranked seats in Sheffield PD2 No. 651, I have now had the opportunity to photograph probably the last pair of ‘Sidhil’ Morseats in captivity which are currently in Sheffield AEC/MCW ex 255, now preserved as ex-gritter G55 in the South Yorkshire Transport Museum at Aldwarke, Rotherham.These seats were the spare pair supplied with 651 and retained by Sheffield Transport Department after the bus was sold on.
John Darwent
15/10/13 – 07:08
Not quite the last set in captivity!. Doncaster 122, the beautiful AEC Regent 111/Roe restored by the late Tony Peart has these seats as well.
Andrew Charles
15/10/13 – 18:03
Splendid news Andrew, thank you for posting. Has 122 a full set, upstairs and downstairs, do you know? I wonder if any more are lurking in preservation.
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
