Tag: Leyland

Calderdale JOC – Leyland Leopard – NHE 10F – 360

Calderdale JOC - Leyland Leopard - NHE 10F - 360

Calderdale Joint Omnibus Committee
1968
Leyland Leopard PSU4/4R
Marshall B45F

When the Calderdale Joint Committee was formed in the early 1970s several vehicles were acquired from nearby NBC companies. These came mainly from the former Hebble concern and Yorkshire Woollen, however also bought were three Marshall bodied Leyland Leopards from Yorkshire Traction. These were bodied by Marshall and were 45 seat examples. One of the trio is seen at the Leeds departure point for the former Hebble service to Burnley. NHE 10F fleet number 360 was originally fleet number 510 in the Yorkshire Traction fleet.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hough

05/01/14 – 12:52

To be clear, the 8 was not an original Hebble service to Burnley, but a new service created following Hebble and Todmorden entering the Halifax fold and the subsequent reorganisation. It followed the original Hebble service from Leeds through Halifax to Hebden Bridge but then took the more remunerative valley route through Todmorden to Burnley. This is however where the original Hebble service to Burnley would have started.

David Beilby

The following comment has been re posted because I originally only posted part of Johns comment of which I do apologise, I work better when it is busy.
Sorry John

Peter

05/01/14 – 16:07

Ah yes, this takes me back. I remember back in my early days with Halifax Corporation my own duty being cancelled one evening in order that my conductor and I could be used elsewhere. He was given a duty with another driver whose conductor had gone home sick, and I was asked to work two trips on the 8 Leeds route. The inspector had not taken into account that this was an OMO route and I was strictly a crew driver. I told him I did not know the route anyway, but he still tried to persuade me to no avail, then very grudgingly had to cancel the first trip and, but then later triumphantly announced that he’d managed to grab a conductor who should have been finishing a middle turn, to do the last trip for overtime. He would show me the way – problem solved. Hmmm.
I walked up to the Bus Station to find one of these ex-YTC Leopards on the stand. At the last minute the conductor arrived. I’d never seen him before.
“Hi mate !” he said, “I hope you know where you’re going ‘cos I haven’t a clue”.
“You’re joking,” I replied, “You’re supposed to be showing me”.
“But I only just came out of the conducting school yesterday – this is my first day on the road” he said. Fantastic !
The grumpy bus station inspector – Ronnie Weston – just shrugged disinterestedly and told us “Too late now lad, you’ll just have to manage”.
So off we went, embarrassingly having to ask directions from passengers (of which there were very few), and somehow we reached King Street terminus in Leeds, where this photo was taken.
On the way back, circumnavigating the Armley Giratory, a chap said “…take your next turn off” – so I did literally, and found myself in the cul-de-sac of what I think was the small car park of the Gas Board Training School ! Red faces all round and after a lot of shunting and heaving I managed to extricate our Leopard and got back onto the proper route. I only just managed at the last minute to avoid missing the slip road off Stanningley Road up to Bramley Town End – which would have led us onto the Stanningley By-Pass and missed out about two miles of the route (and probably left several passengers well out of their way), then I managed to find my way back without further incident. You never forget days like that.
These three buses were quite reasonable to drive once you’d managed to install yourself into the cab seat, and provided you were not a large person or had long legs. The pneumocyclic gearchange pedestal was of the original larger type (like our Worldmasters and PD3A’s – they changed to a miniature version from the PSU4B onwards) and it was very awkwardly positioned close to the left and slightly forward of the driving seat, making access to it only easy for a contortionist. The steering wheel was set very low, so unless you wound the seat almost to the floor and adopted a seriously deformed and painfully uncomfortable posture, your knees were jammed under the wheel, which rubbed against your legs as you turned it.
Compared with our ‘own’ single deckers – including the DP’s with similar BET-style screens – the windscreens on these seemed to be twice the distance in front, which was quite off-putting, particularly to me as a relatively inexperienced driver.
This particular bus – 360 – was in PTE days written off in a serious collision, and for many years after a photograph of it in wrecked state was pinned to the wall of the Skircoat Foremens’ office. They had quite a gallery of such things – always having a very low opinion of us drivers and wishing to make some sort of point. So it was quite a surprise when on holiday in Malta in the 1990’s to meet up with it again there, rebuilt and beautifully turned out. I think I have a photo of it so will have to delve through my disorganised old holiday photos and see if I can post a copy.

John Stringer

06/01/14 – 08:01

Its even more complicated than David suggests! The Calderdale 8, as described by David, was a limited-stop service that only ran for a couple of years. From what I can work out – as a welcome relief to pre-Hilary Term (last-minute!) lesson-planning – after Halifax JOC absorbed various Hebble routes in 2/71 the hourly through service between Burnley-Blackshaw Head-Halifax-Leeds was divided at Halifax, with Halifax-Leeds becoming 8 (Burnley-Blackshaw Head-Halifax being much reduced between Burnley-Blackshaw Head, with the Blackshaw Head-Halifax section incorporated into an extended Heptonstall-Halifax ex Halifax JOC service), whilst the hourly through Rochdale-Halifax-Leeds services continued as 27/28. Then, after the Halifax-Todmorden JOC merger in 9/71, the 8 was extended again through to Burnley (via Todmorden, rather than Blackshaw Head [as per Hebble 15]) on a limited-stop (fare-stage only) basis between Todmorden and the Halifax/Queensbury & Shelf UDC boundary at Northowram – I think the 27/28 also operated limited stop over the common short distance between Halifax town centre and the borough boundary at Northowram. On 2/4/73 the limited stop facilities were withdrawn in the evenings. And then on 1/10/73 the Burnley-Todmorden-Halifax-Leeds 8 was withdrawn between Burnley-Halifax when the “stopper” Portsmouth-Todmorden-Halifax 92 was extended back to Burnley.
The building behind 360 was re-developed in the last decade, but the Bank-of-England money store to the left of that building still stands (although though no longer a money store), and you won’t see that “no-entry” sign there now as the traffic flow along St Paul’s St has now been reversed.
This photograph has got me thinking: in LCT days YWD/ Ledgard/Hebble services from the west/south were kept on the fringes of the city centre at terminal points such as this, then under WYPTE were extended through the congested shopping centre into the Central Bus Station – such that it now takes ages for buses to crawl that last mile-or-so to/from the terminus . . . wouldn’t it make more sense to remove bus termini to their original termini, and “allow” passengers to walk that bit further into town (who actually transfers from one bus to another at a bus station?) reducing congestion and pollution.

Philip Rushworth

06/01/14 – 08:01

Reading your comments, John, I experienced a sense of deja vu. After 4½ years in a London Transport office, I turned up (from the deep south – i.e Croydon, well south of the Watford watershed) for my first day of work in the Traffic Office of HPTD on a Monday in December 1964. On the Friday of that first week, still bemused by my surroundings, a multi bank Ultimate machine was thrust into my hands with the remark, “There lad, we need a conductor for the 3.30 Brighouse. Fred Bull is your driver.” With extreme trepidation, not knowing either the geography or the lingo, I endeavoured to meet the occasion. The first bit – over the top via Southowram to Brighouse in a Leopard – was not too bad. Fred was the Conductor School Instructor, so he helped me along, but worse was to come. After the Brighouse runs we went back to the depot and collected one of the old 1947 all Leyland PD2/1s and set off from the town centre for Greetland and Norland, and, for all I can recall, the Moon. It was now the peak period, Fred was now isolated from me in his cab, the bus was full, the windows were steamed up, it was dark outside, and I hadn’t a clue where I was en route. To add to the fun, I had to decipher the required destinations of the passengers which were given in broad Yorkshire accents, and I then found that the places asked for went under totally different names in the printed faretable. Heaven alone knows what I charged them all. We made several trips out again, and the local populace must have thought that the Halifax Passenger Transport Department had been reduced to employing idiots, such was my low level of expertise in the role of conductor. Thankfully, at the end of it all, good old Fred helped his shell shocked ‘mate’ to complete his waybill and cash in. I was a reasonably normal looking 23 year old at the start of that nightmare. At the end I looked like Methuselah (some would say that I still do – I blame HPTD).

Roger Cox

06/01/14 – 16:39

John mentions the large area of unused space between the steering wheel and the windscreen This was not confined to YTC vehicles. I had a ride on a Devon General AEC Reliance of similar vintage at a Chatsworth rally some years ago and this too had acres of space between driver and window although in this case the bodywork was by Willowbrook rather than Marshall.

Chris Hough

07/01/14 – 07:17

I think the gap between the steering wheel and windscreens of BET bodies in this era was to do with their interest in the Clayton UHV heating/ventilation system which drew in air from a grille below the windscreen and then through a glass fibre duct to the engine radiator. There was a flap in the duct, cable operated from the cab which diverted the cool ambient temperature air into the saloon during the warm months. The system was logical but hopelessly unreliable. Most BET subsidiaries would have this kit fitted around this time. The 1965 PMT Reliance 590 DPs certainly were so equipped and my recollection of the ex Yorkshire Traction trio at Halifax was that they were as well. I seem to remember heating problems with them in winter……..not that that was difficult, it applied to most designs within the fleet! The noisy old underseat heater units were amongst the best apart from clogging with dust and rubbish. If it was a Reliance 470 then you might get warmth for a couple of days after repair before the head gaskets blew again!

Ian Wild

07/01/14 – 07:18

Love your “thrown to the wolves” story, Roger.
Nothing to do with buses, but I once worked as a semi-manager in a punched-card unit. Despite never training on the machines, I was competent in the job. A job as trainer came up, the woman who accepted it turned it down at the last minute and I was asked and accepted on the Thursday. However, I asked that the course for the following Monday be postponed for a week to enable to me familiarise myself with the course material and learn the working of that machine. On the Monday, having just started to look at the course material, there was a knock at the door and a face said, “We”ve just arrived for the course!” In the end, I sent them for a long teabreak, “genned” up enough to cover until lunchtime, at lunch, did enough for teabreak and later sent them home early! Then, each night, I did enough to cover the nest day. Somehow I got through the week and got one of my ex-staff to train me on Saturday on the machine for the following week. I survived somehow, but a couple of years later, I was talking to one of my first proteges and mentioned they were my first course and had they realised? I was given 7/10, the first time, perhaps, that the pupils had marked the tutor! As she said, they survived!

Chris Hebbron

07/01/14 – 13:41

The dark oblong under the windscreen is presumably the intake for the apparatus mentioned by Ian. I vividly recall Ribble Leopards had the same arrangement.

Chris Hough

07/01/14 – 13:41

Interesting to hear that 360 gave further service in Malta. I recall riding on it on visits in 2004 and 2009. By the latter year, former 360 had lost its Leyland 0.600 engine for a Cummins C unit, very much transforming its personality and performance. The Maltese bus operators in their final independent days had turned to the Cummins C engine big-time – surviving AEC Reliances and Swifts had received similar engine transplants, and some Fords were also advertising their Cummins power.

Mark Evans

07/01/14 – 13:43

I well remember the Conductor School Instructor, Fred Bull. He was quite a droll character, and used to call in on the Traffic Office from time to time. After three days in his school, new recruits were sent out to accompany an experienced conductor for just a couple of hours or so on the Thursday during the morning off-peak, in order to observe how the job worked. They then returned to him for the rest of the day after which they worked full duties under the supervision of another trusty conductor until the Wednesday of the second week, after which they were let loose on their own.
It sometimes fell on me as a Traffic Clerk to find appropriate duties with ‘suitable’ conductors for these lads (and occasionally lasses), and I had to have these ready and clearly written down for Fred Bull when he graced us with his presence and dry wit.
He retired in 1973, and was replaced by driver Roy Greenwood, who in turn retired and was replaced by conductor Les Sykes. After the last conductor was set on about 1984/85, Les had little to do, and mostly just took care of uniform issue until retiring at deregulation time. I in the meantime had long since thrown in the Traffic Clerk towel, due to intolerable harassment influenced by a certain Traffic Superintendent, and having already obtained my PSV whilst working in the office, gone full time driving.
From deregulation on, all new staff were set on as OPO drivers, and what had been the ‘conductor’ aspect of training had to be incorporated into the driver training – once they had passed their test. Whereas newly passed out drivers had previously little need to do much route learning, as they had already learnt them all well whilst conducting, this also had to be incorporated into their training at the same time and the whole lot became the responsibility of the Driving Instructors.
It was at this point that the existing instructors – by then senior men Ernest Mitchell and Gerry Yardley – decided that things ahead were looking a bit too hectic and complicated for them, and opted for early retirement before D-Day. It was at this point that I made the rather impulsive decision to apply for the job, which I got, and was kept very busy at it (and much more besides) for the next 18 years. Sadly once more, irreconcilable differences with another colleague forced me to finally realise enough had been enough, and it was back to driving again. Now I am a semi-retired part-time driver working just three days a week. It’s been a long time !

John Stringer

07/01/14 – 14:57

Why is it that “Line Managers” – be they Headmasters, Traffic Superintendents (or whatever their appointed role) need to make life difficult for colleagues rather than help them – especially those who have had the other role “on their way up”?

David Oldfield

07/01/14 – 16:18

Ian’s comments about the Clayton automatic heating and ventilating system fitted by the BET group in the mid sixties brings back many unpleasant memories of Southdown’s batch of Weymann bodied Leopards 140-159 so fitted, these buses had a total lack of opening windows but had two roof vents which were permanently fixed slightly open but worst of all they did not have any type of fan assistance in the demister system relying solely on the movement of the vehicle for any effect not very reliable on stage carriage or in traffic. As you can imagine this meant that in warm weather driver and passengers were very prone to sweating and in winter they were freezing cold with the added bonus that the driver could not see where he was going as his windscreen was constantly misting up and the interior of the saloon was also likely to be damp, the system never worked satisfactorily as the control cables seized and the sensors that controlled the pneumatic valves didn’t operate properly. I don’t however recall there being a excess of space behind the windscreen, Southdown did later fit just one sliding window each side and much later fitted a heated windscreen, perversely only on the nearside, 144 of the batch was re-bodied by Marshall after an accident.
The company also had a batch of Plaxton bodied Leopards 1191-1224 fitted with this system to which all the above criticisms apply with the added discomfort of having vinyl covered seats.

Diesel Dave

07/01/14 – 16:43

Unfortunately David, the attitude of the Traffic Superintendent towards me at the time was entirely a personal and totally inappropriate one. Unbeknown to me, when Geoffrey Hilditch offered me the Traffic Clerk post this character – who lived not far from me – thoroughly disliked my father’s family apparently owing to issues with my Grandfather (whom I never knew, having died long before I was born) going right back before the war. It must have seemed to him to be his one golden opportunity to wreak some kind of final futile revenge on the family by making life so intolerable for me that I would surely leave. Nowadays harassment in the workplace is a serious issue (though it still goes on), but then nobody took it seriously – particularly as the man was well regarded both by my office colleagues and the trade union – and since the matter was making me ill, I could see no other way at the time but to give in, and he got his way.
On another website recently, a former long serving employee of Bradford City Transport recalled how working for BCT was like ‘being part of one big family’, implying that it had been on the whole quite an agreeable experience. But there are families, and there are families. There are ‘normal’ families who despite life’s occasional differences and troubles mostly get on well and care for one another. Then there are those broken and dysfunctional families who are always at each others’ throats, feuding, bearing grudges and carrying on vendettas against one another. I found Halifax Corporation and its successors fell more into the latter category !
There were of course also hundreds of great people employed along the way too, but it only takes a few malevolent ones in the more influential positions of authority to perpetuate a permanently unhappy environment, and as a result create an un-cooperative, deeply cynical and resentful workforce. It’s utterly counter-productive, but they never seem to learn that this is not the way to get the best out of people and for their organisations to succeed and be the best.

John Stringer

08/01/14 – 07:45

John, your recollections of HPTD gel with mine in several aspects. In 1964, having upped sticks and journeyed some 200 miles north for the Traffic Clerk job in Halifax, I found my reception from the people there there to be decidedly strange, varying from the very welcoming to the markedly hostile. Amongst some of the latter, which included the Deputy Traffic Superintendent (the Traffic Superintendent always kept me at arm’s length, having as little to do with me as possible) I was referred to as the “cockney”, which, while not bothering me, illustrated a degree of isolationism and ignorance that manifested itself in many other ways. Being born in Selsdon, Croydon, in 1941, the only way I could have heard the sound of Bow Bells would have been by telephone, and those peals would then have indicated a German invasion. The system within the Traffic Office was for us all to move round the various jobs – duty cover, schedules, bus list, accidents/private hire et al – every couple of months or so. Unfortunately, in 1965, I suffered a broken leg and had some time on sick leave. On my return, I found that all the others in the office had decided to pick the jobs they liked best and keep them. I was left with the unpopular, mundane task of processing accident reports and quoting for private hires from a fixed price sheet. To further sour the pill, this job was carried out at a desk within the office of the DTS. This was not the sort of thing I had been led by GGH to believe would constitute my career in the municipal bus industry. I stuck it for the best part of a year, and it was only the evening and Saturday overtime driving work with decent people from the road staff that kept me there that long. Differences with the DTS finally came to a head, and I quit towards the end of 1966. It was the best thing I did. Had I stayed I would have simply rotted away in mediocre drudgery. As it was, after 18 months with Aldershot and District as a driver to shake off the memories of Halifax, I went back into the administrative side of the bus industry, ultimately as a Traffic Manager until the gibbet of privatisation cut it short. After a period running my own retail business for several years, I, like you, finished off in the bus industry as a driver, this time in Peterborough and Huntingdonshire. I wasn’t sorry to retire from it – the bus industry was a mere shadow of its former self by then. I haven’t driven a bus since.

Roger Cox

02/01/16 – 06:41

The reason for the distance between the driver’s seat and the windscreen is explained in the text attached to this photo of a Devon General AEC Reliance from the same era:- www.flickr.com/photos/  
If the link doesn’t work (I know Flickr can be sensitive in this respect), then do a search for “TUO74J” in photos from Martyn Hearson (Renown).
Basically, the chassis were designed for 30′ long buses, but most were being built to 10m length by then, partly to provide a wider entrance.

Nigel Frampton

04/01/16 – 06:50

How nice to see Ernest Mitchell mentioned here, I remember Ernest as one of the original drivers when one man operation was introduced on the Siddal route around 1958 when we used to travel to school in Halifax, he was a regular on this route and Norton Tower for many years . When I got married he drove past St Marks church in 1968 and despite around 25 people onboard stopped and called out “there’s no going back now”. He was one of the most cheerful blokes you could meet, and over the years I lost contact with him, so you can imagine how surprised I was when I had to help a lady to her flat after a fall to see a picture of Ernest on the sideboard, yes she was Ernest’s wife, and so lots of reminiscing was done. She is still alive and well and had a number of photos taken of his “bus” days throughout his long career.
People said that the one maners wouldn’t last (1958), they got that one wrong???

Stephen Mitchell

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

08/01/16 – 08:39

NHE 10F

I have attached a photo taken of this bus on 19th June 1980 very close to final withdrawal by West Yorkshire PTE. It is at the reversing point at the small hamlet of Boulderclough high above the Calder Valley. It has a noticeably different frontal appearance from the earlier picture. This was a result of repairs following serious damage when it slid into a lamp standard in heavy snow causing a heavy impact to the centre front. Memory says that we obtained a new front dome from Willowbrook of a different profile from the Marshall original. Also I believe we removed the Clayton UHV heating system (the intake ducting behind the front panel would have been seriously damaged in the collision) hence the different lower level air intake grille.

Ian Wild

CIE – Leyland Leopard – EZH 234 – C234

CIE - Leyland Leopard - EZH 234 - C234

CIE (Coras Iompair Eirann)
1966
Leyland Leopard PSU3 4R
METSEC B53F

EZH 234 is a Leyland Leopard PSU3 4R coach with METSEC body. It operated for CIE [Coras Iompair Eireann] and is preserved in their brown and cream livery. It was new in 1966 as B53F [fleet number C234] and reseated to C45F in 1968. In 1986 it was reseated to B55F and transferred to Bus Eireann as their CS234 in 1987. Withdrawn in 1995 it has been restored to its C45F layout.
The picture was taken at Gaydon Heritage Centre – Buses Festival 2014

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

07/09/14 – 18:00

Looks like an excellent restoration. The colour scheme complements the METSEC body which is an interesting and very creditable blend of BET and CIE designs. Having sampled CIE’s previous Leopards on express services in the earlier part of the decade, I wonder how the ride was on Irish roads, especially as it aged. Having sampled two ten year old examples of the Bus Eireann Scania/Irizar Century a couple of days ago, between Tralee and Limerick and back, I would think the vehicle would have been allowed to deteriorate fairly rapidly as CIE and Bus Eireann work their charges very hard on roads that, away from the major cities, are not the best.

Phil Blinkhorn

09/09/14 – 07:00

This is certainly one handsome beast and a beautiful restoration.

Chris Hebbron

United Automobile – Leyland Leopard – 7462 PT – W 5 ?

7462 PT

United Automobile Services
1962
Leyland Leopard L2
Plaxton C43F

Established in the early 1920’s, Wilkinson Motor Services were an independent based in the Durham Mining Village of Sedgefield. They had a well-maintained fleet of quality vehicles, which to the best of my knowledge were all single deck, and mostly AEC and Leyland with a couple of Bedford’s thrown in for good measure. Their livery was red and cream, with cream being the dominant colour. Other than that, I don’ t know a great deal about them. Wilkinson became part of United in 1967; when United gained control of the independent, their usual practice was that any none standard BTH vehicles acquired in the process either became part of the Durham District fleet, or were disposed of as quickly as possible, however, this was not the case with Wilkinson’s fleet. The vehicles were repainted and numbered with a ‘W’ prefix, however, this was 1967, and the new Government were about to start the formation of NBC, and is probably the reason the Wilkinson fleet survived into the new era. As we know the newly created NBC, promptly set about destroying, sorry, ‘redistributing’ long established fleets, and scattering them all over the place. The Wilkinson depot closed, but this is one of four C43F Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopard L2 coaches, 7462&3 PT from 1962 and 3564&5 UP from 1963; which stayed with United, but I’m not entirely sure where the remainder of the fleet ended up. Both Wilkinson and United, had very high standards, but for some reason ‘unless its just happened’ this one has some damage around the grill, and one of the foglights.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

22/12/14 – 07:43

The 30ft model is in my top 5 good looking coaches of all time.

Andy Fisher

23/12/14 – 09:38

I completely agree as long as you mean the 1963/64 version with the improved back end. If you saw this Wilkinsons machine from behind I think that you’d be hard pushed to describe it as a classic! Nearly 50 years on I still remain undecided about the Ogle design which replaced this model in 1965. In some liveries it looked quite futuristic and imaginative, in others weird for the sake of it. I always thought that the ex-Wilkinson coaches looked very nice in the olive green and cream United livery. Wilky’s livery was a bit bland.

Neville Mercer

24/12/14 – 06:12

Another non standard United batch were the nine Leyland Royal Tigers which looked simply glorious in the olive green and cream livery – mind you, it would be a sorry vehicle which couldn’t look good in those classic colours !!

Chris Youhill

26/12/14 – 06:47

I wonder if I may offer a few corrections and clarifications to Ronnie’s caption above.
Firstly, Sedgefield was never a mining village; it is situated just outside and to the South East of the edge of the Durham coalfield. Having said that, the closest pits – at Fishburn (closed 1973) and Bishop Middleham (closed 1936) were both only 3 miles away. Sedgefield’s background, though, is purely agricultural.
You’re quite correct, Ronnie, that the fleet was always single-deck although the services, unusually for this part of the county, didn’t pass under any low bridges. There is a mystery surrounding one particular bus (16, UP5438), however, inasmuch as, although this was an all-Leyland Lion which served Wilkie’s for 19 years between 1931 and 1950, an official Leyland photograph exists (and is shown in the Cardno/Hillerby history of Wilkinson’s Motor Services) of a Leyland Titan, apparently in the livery of a Welsh operator (Vanguard) but clearly displaying the same registration number! The distribution of AECs and Bedfords over the years was equal (8 of each) but the fleet, from 1930 onwards, was predominantly Leyland. At the time of the sale to United, however, the fleet was 7 AECs, 6 Leylands and 1 Bedford with 3 Leylands on order.
Wilkie’s ceased to exist on 26 February 1967 but your suggestion that, when United acquired non-BTH standard vehicles from an acquired independent, they were either disposed of quickly or transferred into the Durham District Services fleet is misleading. During the relatively short life of the DDS, United acquired the services of eight independents; of these, Wilkinson’s was the last. Of the others – Heather Motor Services of Robin Hood’s Bay, W.C.Radley & Son (‘Dauntless Motor Service’) of Eldon Lane (a village near Bishop Auckland), James & Mosley of Croft Spa, M Hardy of Darlington, Scott’s Greys of Darlington, Forge Valley Motors of Scarborough and Norfolk’s Motor Service of New Ridley – only Radley’s vehicles were acquired but, of the five owned, four were promptly offered for resale and only one (a Bedford SB) was taken into the fleet; it was never allocated a fleetnumber, however, never actually operated by United and sold within about four months of the takeover. Thus, no acquired vehicles were transferred to the DDS fleet although the DDS company was itself formed from the acquisition of three independents – Darlington Triumph, ABC Motor Service and the Express Omnibus Company.
The entire Wilkie’s fleet of 14 buses (two of which had originated with Scurr’s of Stillington) and coaches was taken into the United fleet as well as the 3 additional vehicles which were on order at the time of takeover and entered the United fleet between June and August of 1967; they were allocated the fleetnumbers W1-W17 rather than being given the appropriate code for their chassis type. The fleetnumber for 7462UP is correct; it was originally Wilkie’s 62, became United W5 on takeover and eventually became 4002 in the January 1969 renumbering, at which time the 17 ex-Wilkinson’s buses were all still operated.
“The Wilkinson depot closed”. Well, yes it did, but not for some years after the United takeover. The ‘depot’ at Sedgefield was actually two quite separate premises about half a mile apart. These were the Parkside garage – where W5 is photographed – on the outskirts of the village prior to its recent expansion, where the majority of the fleet was garaged and major servicing carried out, and North End, closer to the centre of the village with garaging for four buses as well as being the location of the offices, crew room and even a small filling station and car repair facility. Sedgefield depot didn’t close until November 1984. Parkside garage was demolished and developed many years ago and, today, it’s impossible to imagine that it was once a bus garage. The premises at 46 North End, however, although now the base of Wright Construction, are little changed and immediately recognisable. Shamefully, although I lived a hundred yards or so further up North End for over 30 years until a few months ago, I never photographed it in its days as a bus garage!

Alan R Hall

25/09/16 – 05:43

As a former YTC mechanic and a summertime week-end PSV driver I well remember smashing my less than a year old ‘gold 21st present watch’ whilst attempting to select gears on 1235 fleet no Leyland Leopard on the Doncaster Barnsley service. Leyland (in their wisdom) had decided to introduce a hydraulic clutch system into their early Leopards using a completely new clutch pressure plate. Why? Nobody knows. The old Tiger’s clutch was always good enough, and had served the 0600 engine well since c1949. Probably some ‘Whizz Kid’s’ idea straight from some venerable seat of learning. Anyway he cost me a new watch. £35 as I recall a heap of money at the time and almost three weeks wages.

Mr Anon

West Yorkshire PTE – Leyland Leopard – SCX 22 – 4022

SCX 22

West Yorkshire PTE
1961
Leyland Leopard L1
Roe B44F

Huddersfield JOC purchased a quartet of Roe bodied single deckers in 1961, two on Reliance 2MU2R chassis and two on Leyland Leopard L1, only available at that time with manual gearbox. This was against the run of play for Huddersfield who had standardised on pre select / semi automatic transmission for many years. In fact it was only with the acquisition of Hansons later in the 1960s that a few more manual gearbox buses entered the fleet. I remember journeys home from work on what is a pretty hilly route on one of the Leopard pair where the drivers really struggled with the heavy clutch and ponderous gearchange. Considering that Sheffield operated a reasonable number of similar buses on equally hilly duties apparently without undue difficulty, it does emphasise the unsuitability of the inclusion of these buses within the Huddersfield fleet. I wonder what inducements Leyland offered to encourage their purchase?
By 1974, the bus had become part of the PTE fleet and as an aid to standardisation (both of buses and drivers) I transferred the pair to Todmorden Depot where they joined similar East Lancs and Willowbrook bodied machines. They were only marginally more popular there as Huddersfield had specified an enclosed driver’s cab with access from an offside door rather than the more open aspect of the Todmorden machines but we eked out a few more years service before they could be gracefully retired.
The photo is taken outside Todmorden Depot on a typically murky day in January 1977. I refrain from making any comment about the livery!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

13/04/15 – 07:43

Interesting thought about the livery, Ian! Of course, were the vehicle a few years newer, it might have been called upon to masquerade as a doll and that, I’m sure, would have would have been even more unwelcome in these columns.

Pete Davies

14/04/15 – 07:04

Ian and Pete, you beat me to it as regards commenting on the colour scheme – I was about to say that at least it could claim to BE a livery and, oh, if only West Yorkshire and the rest of the Country could still be served by such civilised looking vehicles today instead of the notorious and meaningless funereal white, lilac and purple of you know who. Also this bus has another advantage – windows which can be seen out of.
I think I recall correctly that these initial PTE colours were “buttermilk and emerald.”

Chris Youhill

14/04/15 – 07:05

You must explain the doll! I don’t think that this livery looked all that bad and was fairly traditional. It was all downhill after that.

Joe

14/04/15 – 07:05

Can anyone confirm that Todmorden (Millwood) bus garage is the oldest in the country in continuous use (since 1907)?

Geoff Kerr

14/04/15 – 07:06

Following withdrawal it was used for a number of years by Kenedy’s Film Services of Morely as a catering vehicle along with the very first Leeds Swift and an ex Morecambe example with Pennine bodywork. A picture of 4022 in this guise can be found on www.sct61.org.uk

Chris Hough

14/04/15 – 10:29

Chris I think the green was officially called Verona green When the PTE adopted Metrobus as a fleet name the green was extended to below the windows and the roof changed from green to buttermilk.

Chris Hough

14/04/15 – 10:30

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the purchase of these two vehicles with manual gearboxes was a ‘mistake’. Around the same time Huddersfield had bought Titans with semi-automatic transmission and perhaps thought the Leopards would be similarly equipped. The later PSU Leopards were of course offered with semi-automatic transmission as an option to manual.

Philip Halstead

14/04/15 – 11:10

I can come up with at least a couple of London garages with longer lives than Todmorden, Geoff.
HL (Hanwell) Garage has been continuously open since 1901, originally being a London United tram depot, then an LT trolleybus, then bus garage.
WH (West Ham) Garage has been continuously open since 1905, originally being West Ham Corp’n’s tram depot, then an LT trolleybus, then bus garage.

Chris Hebbron

14/04/15 – 16:21

I know there is the wellknown tale of Western SMT buying some Daimler halfcab coaches assuming they would have Gardner engines only to find they arrived as CVD6’s, then when Daimler refused to swap them they sold them off straight away, but otherwise I must say that I find it very difficult to imagine that a major operator could buy something by mistake – particularly in the case of a municipality.
I have somewhere deep in my collection some tender documents for new halfcab chassis and bodies drawn up by Salford City Transport for consideration by prospective bidders in the 1960’s. Their required specification went into the most minute detail, and must have taken their Chief Engineer a considerable amount of time and effort to produce, as well as giving the bodybuilders in particular quite a headache working out how to modify their standard model in order to comply and win the bid.

John Stringer

14/04/15 – 16:21

Chris – yes, but I really meant to say “in continuous use by buses”. Those you mention started life as tram depots. Millwood was of course used by buses from the outset as Todmorden never had trams.
(I don’t understand the doll reference either!)

Geoff Kerr

14/04/15 – 16:22

I was referring to the Worst Bus “Barbie” livery. On some former Yorkshire Rider vehicles which came to Southampton, this supposed livery was on vinyl sheets, rather than painted on.

Pete Davies

15/04/15 – 05:56

Hello again John, Would love to see those Salford tender documents, if you can post them. The Fleet Engineer at Frederick Road, was a Mr Brougham, who I came to know in the mid 60’s when I started working in the offices for SCT. He was known as a ‘stickler’ and things had to be just right. However, as is history tells, Daimler got the order, 45 CVG6’s and 2 CRG6Lx’s with AEC the 10 saloons and Leyland, just 2 PDR1’s But Leyland then went on to supply the fleet pretty well exclusively excepting 3 more CRG6LX’s and the 2 infamous CCG6s (which along with Manchester’s – have their own story)

Mike Norris

19/04/15 – 07:40

The answer may indeed lie in London here are two not former tram depots.
Chelverton Road, Putney opened in 1888 with Horse buses and must have been one of the first,still open operated by Go Ahead London. Cricklewood, opened 1898 with horse buses and was the LGOCs first motor bus garage, still open operated by Metroline.

Patrick Armstrong

Ellen Smith Tours – Leyland Leopard – CDK 448C

Ellen Smith Tours - Leyland Leopard - CDK 448C
CDK 448C_2

Ellen Smith’s Tours (Rochdale)
1965
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R
Harrington C49F

CDK 448C is quite clearly a 1965 Leyland Leopard with Harrington body, as seen in the first view. She is of the PSU3/3R variety although some sources have her as a PSU3/3RT, while the seating is of the C49F layout. She is seen at the Harrington Event at Amberley on 3 June 2012. There has been some discussion in these pages about the resemblance of the leaping cat badge seen in the second view to the Royal Tiger badge on the front of Leyland’s product. Indeed, the company history, as set out by Eric Ogden, comments thus:
“The striking Leaping Tiger crest applied to the sides of the coaches, first in a triangle and then in a circle, appeared in the early 1930s on the Leyland Tigers. It is said that the first hand-painted image was copied from a cigarette card. This skilful freehand painting was carried out by Jack Mills who was trained as a professional painter. The design was used by Leyland as the badge for the Royal Tiger coach from 1949. The same design was used as the sign for the Royal Tiger pub in Leyland.”
The device faces forward on both sides, so Leyland must have used that on the offside of the Ellen Smith vehicles.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

10/01/16 – 10:54

CDK 448C_3

Thanks to Pete Davies for his posting. I had wondered about the side logo since taking a few shots of this splendid vehicle at the Bus Meet-Bewdley 2013. I would be very interested in future posts relating to its history.

Nigel Edwards

11/01/16 – 06:51

What a great coach of the era, they were far better built and did not rattle in later life.

Mike

11/01/16 – 09:24

Thank you, Nigel and Mike. I’ve wondered at intervals over the years which were the better-built vehicles, Duple, Harrington or Plaxton. Of course, I know that will provoke some comment on here!!!!!

Pete Davies

11/01/16 – 13:39

There were a couple of glimpses of an Ellen Smith coach at the end of Endeavour last night. Is this the only one in livery? And would it have worked in the Oxford area in period?

John Lomas

11/01/16 – 13:40

This lovely coach appeared towards the end of an episode of ‘Endeavour’ on ITV Sunday 10 January 2015.
Note that in the photograph the coach carries an ‘On hire to Yelloway’ window label. I have seen various photographs of the coach with this addition. However, it is perhaps the strangest item in respect of 1960s/1970s authenticity one can have on an Ellen Smith’s coach. Both Ellen Smith and Yelloway heralded from the Lancashire town of Rochdale and were great competitors. Hubert Allen and Harry Smith got together to discuss matters of mutual benefit or business interest but that was the extent of it. During my time at Yelloway in the late 1960s/early 1970s there was never any inter-hiring as far as I can recall. They did, in later years, participate in a joint service to Morecambe.
I recall on a number of occasions when I worked at Yelloway being sent over to Newgate to furtively spy on Ellen’s excursion departures see if their loadings looked better than ours. What was a little irritating to me as I did my absolute best at playing an undercover spy was that most of the passengers recognised me and gave me a wave as they went by!

David Slater

11/01/16 – 13:40

Pete. You have to factor in chassis as well. Flexing chassis can distort even the best built body. I have a Harrington on a PS1 which while sumptuous is quite a rattlebox yet my friend has same body on a PS2 and it is rock solid

Roger Burdett

11/01/16 – 16:03

Even Mrs B noticed the coach on the TV last night. Whilst an excursion may have taken one of Smith’s coaches into Morse territory, the use of the coach in the context of the programme’s plot did not fit.
A shame really as the previous week the use of two preserved Oxford double deckers was very much in context.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/01/16 – 16:05

You noticed, David! I wondered who would be first. I thought it a bit of an oddity when I saw the sticker. I can’t tell from Nigel’s view whether it appears there or not.
Interesting comment, Roger! I’d have thought there might be a difference between, say, AEC and Guy affecting the way the body moved or didn’t, but I wouldn’t have expected it between models from the same line. Ah well, We live and learn!

Pete Davies

11/01/16 – 16:06

For me Pete, all through my driving days I aspired to one day having charge of a Harrington, be it AEC or Leyland no matter! It never happened . .
I agree with Roger, the rattles depend a great deal on Chassis, a Duple on a R226 SO different to an AEC or Leyland. My personal pet hate was a Yeates – always seemed to leak around the myriad rubber window seals.

Nigel Edwards

12/01/16 – 05:51

I doubt that Ellen Smith vehicles would have visited the Oxford area on any regular basis as most of their operations were in the north west. They did a good deal of business in the winter months running supporter’s coaches for the away games of Rochdale Hornets. They also provided the team coach, complete with distinctive headboard for many years. Many’s the trip I made across Lancashire and Yorkshire to far flung destinations such as Dewsbury, Batley, Leigh, Widnes and numerous other rugby league playing towns. It was usually on one of the earlier Cavalier bodied 36ft Leopards. The fleet was always immaculately turned out and the fares were always very reasonable. A truly quality operation.

Philip Halstead

12/01/16 – 08:22

I made a day trip with Ellen Smith from Rochdale to the 1974 Commercial Motor Show at Earl’s Court. The transport was a Plaxton Panorama Elite-bodied Leyland Leopard. The main thing I remember is the rather low back seats which were a bit of a surprise for such a long trip, although they were more than bus seats.

David Beilby

20/01/16 – 09:21

The latest episode of Endevour had a Burlingham Seagull coach in a red and blue livery dropping a character off in central Oxford. Sadly it was too far away to see what it was.

Chris Hough

20/01/16 – 17:13

The Seagull was the preserved Whittles of Kidderminster Seagull on a Leyland Tiger Cub chassis owned by Bernard Rodgers of Bewdley. His standard of presentation is always top class and it could be argued looked too good for the role of delivering passengers back from holidays.

Roger Burdett

Ribble – Leyland Leopard – PCK 618 – 1036

Ribble - Leyland Leopard - PCK 618 - 1036

Ribble Motor Services
1961
Leyland Leopard L2T
Harrington Cavalier C32F

This Leyland Leopard L2 with Harrington Cavalier C32F body was new to Ribble in 1961. The low seating capacity means it was one of the touring fleet. I do have a query about the chassis designation, because some of my sources mention a twin-speed rear axle, meaning it would be L2T. Any thoughts, please, folks? The coach is seen at the Harrington event at Amberley on 3 June 2012.

Ribble - Leyland Leopard - PCK 618 - 1036

Here we have an interior view of the vehicle which was taken courtesy of the owner.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

24/03/16 – 05:58

Primrose Valley Coaches of Filey had PCK 616. I enjoyed driving it and its two speed axle, and only 32 luxury seats.

Ken Wragg

24/03/16 – 17:03

I became misty eyed looking at this photo as an avid admirer of Harrington’s Cavalier and Grenadier designs and there is a tantalising glimpse of one of Southdown’s near identical extended tour Leopards alongside, these were definitely L2Ts.The main differences were the 27 reclining seats in 2+1 layout and the glazed cove panels and they too were a delight to drive although I only drove them after they were up seated for normal coach duties. My drooling at least won’t show on an e-mail.

Diesel Dave

25/03/16 – 14:22

Thank you, Dave and Ken, for confirming the L2T version. Dave, the adjacent Southdown was 2722 CD and the blue and cream one parked back-to-back with PCK 618 was Hawkey’s 100 VRL. I have views of both, if you’d like me to forward via Peter.

Pete Davies

26/03/16 – 05:18

PMT acquired three of this batch in 1972 as Roadliner replacements, PCK601, 602 and 605. These were C41F as acquired. They did four seasons with PMT before withdrawal in 1976. I remember them as very sound, reliable coaches. Does anyone have photos of them in PMT service?

Mr Anon

26/03/16 – 05:19

Pete, Like Diesel Dave I tend to glaze over and dribble when a Harrington appears . . they truly are icons of an age when these machines shouted style and quality, sadly missed. I for one would appreciate a peek at your shots of 2722 CD and 100 VRL.

Nigel Edwards

26/03/16 – 16:54

Here is PCK on coaching duties with PMT www.flickr.com/photos/

Stephen Bloomfield

27/03/16 – 07:33

2722 CD
100 VRL
100 VRL_2

Nigel Edwards comments that he would like to see views of 2722 CD and  100 VRL.

Pete Davies

27/03/16 – 09:58

These photos only reinforce my long-held view that Harrington’s Cavalier/Grenadier bodies seemed to look stylish in virtually ANY livery!

Chris Hebbron

27/03/16 – 17:39

Many thanks to Pete Davies for posting the three extra photos of 2722 CD and 100 VRL as looking at them made me all misty eyed and nostalgic and quite weak at the knees.
It is also good to see 2722 CD in the original livery with the cream roof unfortunately this only lasted 2 or 3 years before being painted green this was long before it was reseated as it is now. The armchair reclining seats from these and the later 1800-44 Leopard PSU3’s were distributed to the various staff canteens and rest rooms for the benefit of drivers numb parts and were much appreciated.

Diesel Dave

Western Welsh – Leyland Leopard – OUH 177G – 177

Western Welsh - Leyland Leopard - OUH 177G - 177

Western Welsh
1969
Leyland Leopard PSU3A/4RT
Plaxton C49F

Western Welsh buses ran in a maroon livery however this smart blue and ivory was applied to coaches for a period. OUH 177G is a preserved example of the Leyland PSU3A/4RT (900597) with Plaxton Panorama Elite C49F coachwork (693263). The batch of six delivered in April 1969 were fitted with a five-speed semi-automatic gearbox and two-speed rear axle. This one is seen at the 2016 Swansea Bus Museum Running Day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

25/04/16 – 18:05

I’m surprised nobody else has commented, Les. Very nice view, and thanks for posting. I’ve been doing battle with my computer system [going back to a Windows machine from an Apple] otherwise I would have commented before.
I’m still not finished and am currently trying to get some backup copies restored by my local photographic dealer. (Most have copied happily, some have been reluctant to do all their contents and a few won’t do anything!)
It’s very pleasant to see a Western Welsh coach in “proper” colours rather than the white paint carried by her sister 176G, which I had published one these pages some while ago.

Pete Davies

28/04/16 – 07:10

WKG 138

I have attached a photo of Western Welsh WKG 138, an AEC Reliance 470 with a Weymann C39F body new in May 1961. It was on hire to PMT in May 1970 along with several others of the batch and is pictured outside Stoke No 1 Garage. I think this body style was unique to Western Welsh and (to my mind) could hardly be described as attractive. Hope this is of interest.

(A rather younger version of IW is in the driving seat!!!)

Ian Wild

29/04/16 – 06:13

Ian, you described the looks of WKG 138 very tactfully, although it does have its charms despite (to my eyes) looking somewhat like a frog wearing safety goggles. It must be admitted that 177 certainly leaves it standing in the beauty stakes though. The Plaxton coachwork looks simply stunning in Western Welsh’s cream and blue livery. Interesting that the Company chose blue rather than red or maroon for the coach livery. I wonder what the reasoning behind it was.

Brendan Smith

29/04/16 – 07:55

Its a shame that they had to bend the windscreen panels to fit them in.

Joe

02/05/16 – 06:43

Brendan, I believe that “powder blue” was the livery of WWOC’s predecessor South Wales Commercial Motors – although why WWOC decided to adopt it as their coach livery . . .

Philip Rushworth

02/05/16 – 14:03

Brendan’s description “a frog wearing safety goggles” is brilliant ! I can see exactly what he means.

John Stringer

02/05/16 – 14:04

Thanks for the information Philip. It’s certainly an attractive shade, especially when matched with cream/ivory.

Brendan Smith

07/05/16 – 17:31

I was never lucky enough to drive an Elite like this – when I started PSV driving in 1979 it was Supremes that we had at Salopia and then Shearings.
But when I did my HGV training at Bassetts at Stone in the 1990s they still had a few Elites older than this one (ISTR a “D” registered one at least) running around on schools contracts. I asked if they would sell me one but they said “no” on the grounds that with them being 45 instead of 53 seats, they were easier to turn into school driveways.
But out of interest, where would anyone go (apart from eBay) to find something like this for sale these days. I’d love to have my own old “Plackie” to go on day trips out.

Eric Hall

08/05/16 – 05:58

Eric – your best option is probably to buy a copy of “Bus & Coach Preservation” and keep an eye on the adverts section. It is published monthly, and I think that Plaxton Elites come up occasionally (I cannot see any in the current issue). To the best of my knowledge, the earliest Elites were G-suffix registrations. I’m not an expert, but my understanding is that the structure is not always as good as the vehicle might look – and certainly not as solid as an ECW body!
The Western Welsh blue and royal ivory coach and DP livery was actually quite short lived. It first appeared in 1965, and all new coaches and DPs delivered from 1965 to 1971 were delivered in it, as well as the 1972 coaches. Older vehicles were repainted in the blue/ivory during that period, but by 1972, the company had reverted to dark red and cream for DPs. Towards the end of the period, the fleetname was replaced with a large block lettered variety. I seem to recall reading that the shade of blue was known as “peacock”.

Nigel Frampton

09/05/16 – 16:49

I have just bought a J reg Elite. Certainly they were renowned for drooping behind the rear axle and mine was no different. 60 man hours and some steel later all sorted and MoT obtained.

Roger Burdett

10/05/16 – 06:47

When you refer to the solidity of ECW body designs, Nigel, I assume that you do not include the B51 in that description, though much of the blame lay with Leyland. The B51 was designed for the RE, but Leyland decided to fit it to underfloor engined chassis with no proper rear chassis support for the boot area.

Roger Cox

11/05/16 – 06:27

Well, Roger, I was thinking more of contemporaries to this Western Welsh vehicle, for example the first style of coach body on a Bristol RELH chassis. Those were definitely solid!
Unfortunately, under Leyland’s influence, and possibly a more general pressure to cut costs, the quality deteriorated in later years, and I have read somewhere that, for example, the second type of RELH coach body was also not as solid as its predecessor. But I agree, the B51 was poor – perhaps, the exception that proves the rule!

Nigel Frampton

11/05/16 – 06:28

The Elite is most correctly described as the ‘Panorama Elite’ although as time went by the ‘Panorama’ was dropped in everyday speak. The earliest examples were G-reg, restyling seeing the introduction of the Panorama Elite II and Panorama Elite III, the final examples being P-registered. When grant doors etc were specified, the word ‘Express’ was added to the body designation eg: Plaxton Panorama Elite II Express, which probably accounts for the general term ‘Elite’!

Philip Lamb

Standerwick – Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R – TRN 731 -731

Standerwick - Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R - TRN 731 -731

W. C. Standerwick Ltd
1963
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R
Plaxton C49F

After the renumbering from a plain consecutive series (2777 seems to have been the highest reached) in September 1950, Ribble adopted a numbering system whereby numbers were reused. Those of the Standerwick subsidiary were in the 1-200 group. This policy was changed again after the acquisition of Scout Motor Services, whose vehicles kept their old fleet numbers, with ‘S’ prefix until the 1963 coach deliveries, when the common number series was adopted. Ribble had just the number (744, for example) but Scout had the prefix (S751, for example) while Standerwick had a (suffix, 731S), as we see above. TRN 747, in the Ribble fleet, reached Morecambe depot late in 1963 and was stored for the winter, entering service early in 1964.

TRN 731 pictured above is a Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R (though I have seen some references to PSU3/3RT chassis for this batch) with a Plaxton C49F body. We see it in North Albert Street, Fleetwood, arriving for Tram Sunday on 18 July 1999. For more precise ‘placing’ of the shot, the fire escape of the North Euston Hotel is in view top left!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

30/11/16 – 09:22

I remember travelling on one of these on a Keswick-Manchester relief. It rode very nicely,but at Kendal depot the driver disappeared into the workshops. He reappeared muttering to us all (only about10) “Well we are going home without top gear”. I had not noticed any problem, but the roads in the Lakes were not conducive to speed. As we were all going to Manchester we went on the M6. I am not certain what gearbox was in these vehicles, but the driver had no problems and the run was smooth and quiet. Somewhere along the M6 insult was added to injury when we were overtaken by one of the original Ribble group 36 footers, a Leopard/Duple that had been ordered by Scout.

Andrew Gosling

01/12/16 – 06:50

Andrew, The expression “ouch!” springs to mind.

Pete Davies

01/12/16 – 06:51

I remember this fine coach when with Ingleby York

Ken Wragg

01/12/16 – 09:09

Not having thought about”real Plaxton” bodies recently I have looked at the different models again. The design of the above is really quite simple, but to my mind is the smartest that Plaxton produced. It has a sleek business-like look. Much the same can be said of the Alexander Y type.
Please note: other makes of coach are available.

Andrew Gosling

02/12/16 – 07:14

As far as I can recall, the highest fleet number reached by a Ribble vehicle was 2797, the batch 2778-97 (CRN 978-97) comprising Burlingham bus-bodied Leyland PS2s which became 228-47 in the 1950 renumbering. I don’t remember any vehicles numbered 2798 or higher, but anyone with access to a copy of the publication ’52 Years of Ribble’, produced by the Ribble Enthusiasts Club, should be able to immediately confirm or deny whether there were such vehicles.
An interesting aspect of the 2778-97 batch was that, intentionally or otherwise, there was a last two digit match between fleet numbers and registrations, Ribble vehicles not having three-digit matching registrations until 1963. A few batches of vehicles did have a last-digit fleet/registration number match, but, prior to 1963 the only other batches I can recall with even a two-digit match were Atlanteans 1656-1700 (NRN 556-600) and 1801-14 (RRN 401-14).

David Call

Drake & Mc Cowen – Leyland LB2 – XP 435 – B21

XP 435_lr

Drake & Mc.Cowen
1923
Leyland LB2
Dodson O48RO

I thought I’d lost this photo until I found it today tucked inside a book.
My father was very friendly with Joe Mc.Cowen and I think he fought with his nephew(?) in the war (sadly he was killed in N Africa in 1941).
Joe lived at 1 Bonny Street Camden Town NW1 and I used to go there with my father on a spurious excuse, which I suspect was just a ruse so some heavy drinking could be done. Joe’s place was in terrible condition and stank of old cigars. I think the bus was used on the 3 or 53 route, at least the bus terminus was very close to Bonny St. I remember my father telling me that Drake had run off with the conductress, so I don’t know what happened to the company after that! The picture looks like it might have been taken in Regent’s Park.
I look forward to any comments regarding the above operator or vehicle.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Canty

01/07/12 – 09:55

The definitive work on this subject is “London’s Buses Volume 1 – The Independent Era 1922-1934” by Messrs Blacker, Lunn, and Westgate, published by H J Publications in 1977 (and of course long out of print), from which the following information is extracted.
According to the book, the business commenced in August 1923 and was originally a partnership of William Drake of 245 Great College Street N1 and Robert McCowen; but Mr McCowan left the business in about 1926 and Mr Drake continued as sole proprietor until he sold the business to Birch Brothers in October 1928.
Two buses were operated:
XP 435 Leyland LB2 Dodson O26/22RO new 8/23
XT 4603 Leyland LB4 Dodson O26/22RO new 5/24
In addition a second-hand Leyland LB4 Dodson, XP 4355, was acquired for spares in 11/23. Its chassis was dismantled and the body used as a shed.
XT 4603 achieved fame when it was overturned by protestors during the General Strike, but ran in service the next day with its windows boarded over.
The original livery was creamy-yellow and black (or possibly very dark navy) with DRAKE & McCOWAN fleetname in large gold letters as per your photograph. After Mr McCowan left the fleetname was changed to DRAKE. In 1928 the livery was changed to red and white and the fleetname became W. R. Drake in script lettering.
Drake and McCowan are known to have operated on route 27 (their version becoming 206 under the Bassom system in December 1924). Under the 1924 Act one of their buses operated on the 206 and the other on the 284A (unfortunately I have no idea where those routes went in those days).
Drake & McCowan’s buses were originally kept, with those of several other independents, at Dangerfield’s garages in Camden Town and Chalk Farm, but when Dangerfield sold out to the LGOC in 1927 they were moved to Bridge Wharf Garage in Kentish Town Road.

Michael Wadman

05/07/12 – 16:20

I know the shiny paintwork and stylish fleet name helps, but what a handsome, well-proportioned bus!
There are good- and not so good-looking vehicles of all periods, but the team that designed this one can look down and be proud.

Ian Thompson

05/07/12 – 16:21

Pauls photograph is a great reminder of the era of the London “Pirates”. This Dodson body was the most popular fitment to Leyland LB series, and Dennis buses over the whole “Pirate” scene, followed by the Birch body, and, less common, Strachan and Brown.
There is something uniquely distinctive about Dodson bodywork, as has been discussed before, but this is emphasised more when seen on some provincial fleets, notably Wolverhampton, and the style was quite popular in several fleets. Peterborough and District comes to mind, as well as Hastings Tramways.
I wonder if this particular bus was one of the survivors into LT days, which were converted to trolleybus tower wagons.
Thanks for a nice photograph.

John Whitaker

05/07/12 – 17:44

If memory serves me right, John W, LPTB stayed true to its AEC roots and used withdrawn NS buses as tower wagons, wire lubricators and, more generally, as tree loppers and mobile canteens. Surprisingly, at a time when many of the first-generation Green Line T’s were being replaced and available for conversion, it also bought some AEC Mercury lorries for use as tower wagons. I have no idea what vehicles LUT used for their ‘Diddler’ system which started in 1931, but maybe continued with the same ones they’d used to maintain the erstwhile tram system. It was all done on the cheap.

Chris Hebbron

06/07/12 – 14:14

I refer you to Capital Transport`s “The London Trolleybus Vol.2” re LB Leyland tower wagons. Full details are in there!
The original ADC vehicles were used in LUT days.

John Whitaker

City Coach Company – Leyland Gnu – FGC 593 – G1

City Coach Company - Leyland Gnu - FGC 593 - G1

City Coach Company (Brentwood)
1938
Leyland TEP1 Gnu
Duple C40C

This vehicle was the third and last TEP1 chassis and was delivered new to the City Coach Co in August 1938 as fleet number G1. City’s later Gnus were of chassis type TEC2. When new the Duple bodywork was in C40C lay-out.
The vehicle was sold to a dealer in May 1948 and then re-sold to E Wright of Southend-on-Sea (trading as Grey Luxury Coaches) in the following month, becoming Wright’s fleet number 8. Wright withdrew it in June 1951 and it next appeared with Taylor of Caterham in May 1952 as fleet number 16.
Taylor traded it in to the Arlington Motor Co dealership in November 1954 and by June 1956 it was reported to be with an “unidentified showman”. Does anybody know when it was last licensed?
I bought the original 10×8 print (which now hangs in my flat!) from a second-hand stall and have no idea who the original photographer was nor where the picture was taken. Can anybody identify the location?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Neville Mercer

27/03/16 – 09:58

Ooh! 25 years or so before the Bedford VAL . . .

Pete Davies

28/03/16 – 15:07

Four-wheel steering PSV’s were a very rare breed. The Leyland Gnu (supposed to have a silent G but that all stopped with Flanders & Swann’s song) was not only a rare beast with its four-wheel steering, but also with its set back front axle, like the Maudslay SF40/Magnum, but not looking so sleek.

DTD 649

Another example was London Transport’s 1939 chassisless all-Leyland Class X7 four-wheel steering trolleybus 1671 (DTD 649) which was unique in the fleet and scrapped in 1955. It was conceived, and was successful at, reducing tyre-scrub problems on the conventional six-wheeled trolleys and considered to have light steering, but was not repeated.

Chris Hebbron

29/03/16 – 05:54

There were only ever three of the Gnu TEP1 built, the other two being 40 seat front-entrance saloons bodied by and operating for Walter Alexander & Sons Ltd.
Unlike the later TEC2 which was a PSV conversion of the Steer TEC1 lorry, not only was there a substantial front overhang, but also the radiator (of Tiger pattern) was off-set to the nearside to allow the 8.6 litre engine to be mounted further forward to improve passenger access.
Here’s an Alexander official picture of the first one: www.flickr.com/photos/  
The steering was not (unlike the VAL) power assisted.

Stephen Allcroft

29/03/16 – 05:54

Interesting that the trolleybus has a Lancashire DTD registration. Was it originally a Leyland demonstrator?

Philip Halstead

29/03/16 – 09:08

Not exactly, Philip. It was a one-off experiment with Leyland chassis and body to mimic LPTB’s trolleybus “house style”; a sort of demonstrator, but with LPTB very much in mind! This would not have been hard, as Leyland had built some London chassisless trolleybuses, to order, a year or two before. Electrical equipment was by Metrovick. It was run in London for about six months, then bought by LPTB, perhaps because, despite the war having started, trolleybus expansion was still running at pre-war levels in London and, with prescience, they wanted all they could get!

Chris Hebbron

29/03/16 – 10:54

Following on from Stephen A’s post, here are some photos of Gnu models painted in City and Alexander colours; all four sides. The page is slow to load, then go 1/3rd down the page.
You can double-click to magnify. //tinyurl.com/zqgd4fh

Chris Hebbron

29/03/16 – 11:50

The City Coach Co. like Birch Bros., was partly able to keep out of London Transport’s clutches, because of its long-distance service to Southend. And the pair of them used vehicles which maximised customer payload. Birch used double deckers a lot, including Leyland Titanics and City used single-deck six-wheelers. Here is an eclectic selection of them, notably the Leyland PS2/11 with trailing front axle! //tinyurl.com/ztpnx68

Chris Hebbron

29/03/16 – 14:00

Some of those views mentioned by Chris Hebbron (29/03/16 – 11.50) have what look to be ‘Foden-ish’ front panels. Or are my eyes playing tricks again?

Pete Davies

30/03/16 – 05:42

Yes Pete, they are “Foden-ish” in their looks, but that’s the limit of it. There’s no Foden element in any of these Leylands. I suppose that a Foden designer might have seen them and worked on a similar design (or did someone working with pre-war Leyland transfer to Foden later?) But these are all fascinating buses and coaches. The images of the models in Chris H’s link is also interesting. It was worth comparing the dimensions of the NGT SE6 with those of the Leyland Gnu – two different pre-war approaches before Midland Red led the way with the under-floor engined S6 saloon in 1946 for the rest of the world to follow.

Michael Hampton

31/03/16 – 06:31

Thanks for the above Michael, but I think it was a Duple designer who styled the front of the City TEC2s and not a Leyland one, Leyland Steer cabs of the time had an exposed radiator. The post war Leyland cab strongly resmbled the Ale3xander bodied Gnus however.
Of course the Northern SE6 and SE4 were the work of Donald Sinclair who then became chief engineer at Midland Red.
And let’s not forget the Panda which was twin steering and mid-engined; originally designed for an abortive LT enquiry, it had only a short front overhang, however Alexander were keen on the twin steering concept and even wanted a twin-steer Titan…

Stephen Allcroft

01/04/16 – 06:55

These postings do generate a lot of little-known information, don’t they? ” . . . and informative copy” is a very apt motto!

Pete Davies

01/04/16 – 06:56

8501 VX

The twin steer is alive & well in Melbourne Australia, a BusTech CDi

John Wakefield

01/04/16 – 14:25

John- there is a Swedish coach company called Froggy Tours, and yes I have seen them in France, which uses Setra and Neoplan double-deck coaches with 4-axles three of which steer, I think. Seen with their luggage trailers, too, they are quite a rig!

Joe

02/04/16 – 06:33

Michael H mentioned Midland Red’s S6 model, which made me plot the stages of moving bus engines from front to back of the vehicles, a feat which took from 1932 to 1950; a mere 28 years, certainly less had the war not intervened.
John Rackham”s “Q” class vehicle first saw the light of day in September 1932 with the LGOC, with a vertical engine mounted behind the offside front wheel. This avoided the need for a high floor which later underfloor-engined vehicles suffered from. Nevertheless, apart from London Transport taking 233 single deckers and five double deckers, the remaining UK sales amounted to penny numbers. London”s had long lives, mostly going in 1952/53, many being sold on, even to Malta.
Northern General”s first 30 foot long six-wheeler SE6 (later four-wheel LSE4), designed by G W Hayter (NGT Chief Engineer) & W G Allen, was was registered in 1934 and had a true underfloor engine. This was the first of 131 vehicles, of which 24 were the four wheel SE4″s.
The Leyland Tiger FEC (LPTB”s TF class) had underfloor engines, the prototype being delivered in December 1937, with the remaining 87, delivered in 1939, but they were to to be purely destined for London Transport, although the war suppressed any opportunity to market them elsewhere. They were 27″ 6″ long and seated 34, but these were Green Line/private hire vehicles. They were in store or used as ambulances, during the war up until 1946, when Green Line services resumed. Sound vehicles, the last, nevertheless, went in mid-1953, with low mileages, a victim of LT”s obsession with standardisation, using the RF.
The Leyland Panda was produced after an enquiry by LPTB, who later lost interest, hence the vehicle entering service with Walter Alexander. The chassis had an underfloor engine, like the Leyland FEC. Alexander built the body, which had 45 seats and a centre entrance.
Towards the end of the war, Midland Red R&D built some prototype chassis (S1-S5) chassis, designed to take a rear engine, but, with the arrival of Donald Sinclair, as chief engineer, from Northern General, (who oversaw the creation of the SE6/SE4), these chassis being altered to take an underfloor engine. The result was the S6, the first one of which was built in December 1946 and entering service in February 1947, the first of 100 vehicles. Again, they remained solely with Midland Red, being retired in the 1960″s. How these subsequent events might have changed, had a successful rear-engined vehicle emerged from S1-5!
It was Sentinel who first offered an underfloor-engined vehicle to the open market, displaying two complete models at the Commercial Motor Show in 1948. For the first time, here was a model which could have transformed the then current thinking of the wider bus world, but, sadly, an outmoded, thirsty engine with high fuel consumption somewhat insecurely mounted underneath, with at least engine falling onto the road, somewhat dampened enthusiasm to buy – a tragedy really.
Slightly later came the Leyland Olympic, introduced in 1949, a single-decker, with in integral body, under which was a horizontal version of the ubiquitous O.600 engine, with over 3,500 being built between 1949 and 1971. These rugged and reliable vehicles were exported around the world, proving very popular. The underfloor-engined bus had finally arrived!
Then, in September 1950, Foden succeeded in producing the first rear-engined bus in the UK, the PVRF6, but it was not a big seller.
It was another eight years before Leyland launched the game-changing Atlantean at the 1958 Commercial Motor Show.

Chris Hebbron

03/04/16 – 07:30

The first rear-engined PSV was actually delivered in 1937 – the prototype Leyland REC (Rear-Engined Cub), London Transport’s CR class. 48 production examples followed. As Ian Smith astutely points out on his website, the concept was exactly the same as the Dennis Dart of 50 years later.
Details at www.countrybus.org/CR/CR.html

Peter Williamson

03/04/16 – 08:56

The Tilling-Stevens Successor of 1937 was a true underfloor engined design, albeit one that failed, primarily because the horizontally opposed eight cylinder engine kept breaking its crankshafts. It is believed that neither of the two constructed ever ran with the eight cylinder engine, but what ultimately became of these remarkable chassis is shrouded in the mists of time.

Roger Cox

03/04/16 – 10:32

Thx Peter/Roger, for reminding me of my omissions, especially that of the CR’s, although I should have remembered the Successor, too, since there is my thread about LT1000’s second body, which was taken off the Successor’s chassis! When you consider that the late thirties relationship between LPTB and Leyland was so innovative, which, initially included the Panda, it surprises me that Leyland were so slow in marketing underfloor/rear-engined postwar. The CR was a little unreliable, true, but there was a war on before snags could be ironed out and these mainly surplus, unloved ‘babies’ after the war, were too small for ‘big boys’ work!

Chris Hebbron

31/05/16 – 06:17

I’ve found a little footage of London Transport”s 1939 chassisless all-Leyland Class X7 four-wheel steering trolleybus 1671 (DTD 649). Go to the link and start at 2:10 mins – LINK: //tinyurl.com/jfxfchl

Chris Hebbron

01/06/16 – 06:49

May I add a few points to the above entries. Under Mr. L.G. Wyndham-Shire, Midland Red produced its first rear engined bus early in 1935. Between May and October of that year, it completed 25,000 miles in service. It had a transverse mounted petrol engine, Daimler fluid flywheel and Cotal gearbox (two-pedal control), and the entrance was in front of the front wheels. It was followed by one coach and two more buses (all designated type REC) in 1935/6. Their downfall was overheating and ingress of dirt into the engines (which still sounds familiar!)
Their “conversion” to underfloor engine (one wonders how much actually remained) was probably under consideration before the war and the arrival of Mr. D.M. Sinclair. Between 1941 and 1944, they appeared, one a year, as 40 seat buses, types S1, S2, S3 and S4 with mechanical and body variations.
The S5 was completely new and differed in being of integral construction.

Mr Anon

28/05/19 – 07:02

The photo of the ex-City coach Leyland Gnu was taken by the late Richard Butler, who died recently. I believe it was photographed at Derby in the late 1950’s. Richard took many shots of buses and coaches on the fairgrounds around that time. I suspect this one was probably unique on the grounds.

Paul Redfern