Tag: LGOC

London General – AEC S-Type – XM 7345


Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

London General
c1920
AEC S-Type
LGOC O30/26RO

Here is a wonderfully evocative photo of Morden UndergrounD Station (near to where I grew up) with the Derby Week “racing fraternity” in full flood, having arrived by Tube and queuing up for transporting to Epsom Downs/Tattenham Corner. I count about twelve of these bone-shakers. At the end of the day, the scene would be played out in reverse! Note the inspector on his boxes directing what appears to be a very smooth operation. One wonders if he was a tic-tac man in his off-duty hours!
The S-Type bus was first introduced around 1920. It was larger than the similar-designed K-Type, and could carry 56 passengers as opposed to the slightly earlier and smaller K-Type”s 46, making it popular on the busier routes. They were withdrawn between about 1930 and 1932, as new and infinitely better LT and ST types came off the production lines. Since Morden Station was built in 1927, the scene can fairly accurately be dated, therefore, at between 1927 and 1932.
One S-Type (S742) survives as part of the Transport of London Collection and appears at rallies from time to time.
When I collected bus numbers, using my Ian Allan ABC book for reference, I would bunk off school for these few days each year. London Transport would bring in buses from every corner of its territory (and every dark corner of its garages) to support this challenging feat. In an area which usually had austerity Daimlers, pre-war RT”s and STL”s, Morden would come alive with austerity Guys and Bristols, Godstone and Watford”s green STL”s and ancient LT”s and ST”s from afar, many with chalk crosses on their wings, signifying their imminent doom, once this final task had been fulfilled!
Maybe these S-types were also on the way to the bone (shakers) yard after the last horse had run and passengers deposited at Morden!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

14/06/21 – 06:28

I was just giving some thought to the exhortation to the photographer beneath the picture, “if you took this picture please get in touch”. By my reckoning, assuming the picture was taken in 1931 to make the maths easy and that the photographer who took this is going to be at least 20 at the time, he would now be at least 110 years old. I think if the person who took this picture tries to get in touch I for one, would be out!

Peter Cook

15/06/21 – 06:34

You were right, Peter, to come up with 1931, as the last 700 ‘S’ double deckers were taken out of service by November of that year, with some single deckers lasting, amazingly, to 1936. These did eventually get pneumatic tyres, which the double deckers don’t ever seem to have had, so the photo could well be 1931.

Chris Hebbron

13/09/22 – 06:50

XM 7345

In London and its surrounding areas the proliferation of motor buses from 1905 led the Metropolitan Police to view the early examples of mechanical propulsion with a deep suspicion bordering on hostility. Early in 1906 the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police issued a set of regulations governing the design and construction of buses operating in the area under his jurisdiction. From this date the Met Police Public Carriage Office stipulated the maximum dimensions of 23 feet in overall length, 7 feet 2ins in width and a maximum unladen weight of 3 tons 10 cwts, with axle loading limits of 2 tons at the front and 4 tons at the rear. Minimum turning circles were specified, and severe constraints were placed upon mechanical and bodywork engineering features right down to the smallest details. In 1919 the government set up a new department, the Ministry of Transport, to oversee the burgeoning mechanised transport scene. Doubtlessly influenced by some lobbying from the LGOC, the new ministry accepted the need for a larger capacity omnibus to meet the pressures of public demand in London. The Metropolitan Police already had the discretion to permit the operation of vehicles that exceeded the 1906 regulations, and the introduction of the forward control AEC “K” type from 1919 was covered by an increase in the laden axle weight limits from 2 tons to 2 tons 15 cwts at the front and from 4 tons to 4 tons 5 cwts at the rear. The maximum laden weight became 7 tons. In recognition that even this was unduly restrictive, the rear axle weight was increased further in 1920 to 5 tons, the vehicle laden weight to 8½ tons and the maximum overall length to 25 ft. These relaxed criteria led to the introduction in 1921 of the heavier AEC “S” type with O28/26RO bodywork. A total of 928 S type buses, some being single deck, entered the fleet of the London General Omnibus Company and its associates mainly between 1920 and 1923, though a few were constructed later up to 1926. AEC offered provincial versions of the S as their Types 4 and 5. Bus design progressed rapidly during the late 1920s, and the arrival of the NS followed by the advanced Regent sounded the end for the early K and S types. Most of the S class were withdrawn in 1931, but those that had been converted to enclosed windscreens and pneumatic tyres stayed on until a little longer. Remarkably, because of a weight restriction on Chertsey Bridge, fifteen K type buses remained in stock until June 1932. When the LPTB was formed in 1933 fifteen S double deckers and fifty eight single decks transferred to the new ownership, though not all were licensed. The double decks all went by 1934, but some of the single decks lingered on until 1936. The bus in the picture above is S774 XM7345, which was allocated to Tottenham garage by April 1923 and was withdrawn in 1931. Even the low framed NS of 1924 did not survive much longer, many being withdrawn from passenger service by 1934 and the last by 1937. Above is a picture of preserved S454 on an HCVC Rally in the early 1970s.

Roger Cox

National Omnibus – AEC Regent I – GF 7217


Copyright V C Jones


Copyright Surfleet Transport Photos


Copyright J C Gilham

National Omnibus/LGOC/London Transport
1930
AEC Regent I
Short Bros. L26/24R

In LGOC days, it competed with independents as much in the rural areas around London as in Central London. Two of the main contenders were, in the South, East Surrey, based in Reigate, and, in the North, the National Omnibus and Transport Co. Ltd, based in Watford. Slowly, they integrated their services and were eventually bought by LGOC, nevertheless still ploughing their own furrows, even to the extent of choosing their own vehicles.
Both organisations suffered from routes with low bridges and bought lowbridge buses. National solved their problem with six AEC Regent I’s, with Short Bros. lowbridge bodies for the Watford-Chesham service (later route 336). Unusually, the 24 upstairs seats were 3-in-a-row bench ones, accessed by a sunken gangway each side.
They all went into service in May/June 1930 and lived a steady life until 1941, when the double-decking of the single-deck route 127 (Morden-South Wimbledon) caused some to be painted red and despatched to Merton Garage until mid-1943. Others went to Godstone Garage, Surrey, to assist in route 410 and Weybridge Garage, also with a low bridge problems. Not only did they wander about, but they were also “Londonised” during overhauls, but each one was done in different ways until not one looked like any of the others! They outlived all the other ST’s and were even re-engined with diesel engines around 1949-50 from scrapped STL’s, to extend their lives, until the eventual advent of RLH’s, which sealed their fate.
All were withdrawn in October 1952,, with some being sold on for further use. The last one (ST140) seems to have been finally withdrawn as a bus in August 1954, having served a very creditable 24 years service, for a wooden-framed body. Even then, it was spotted cut down as a lorry, in June 1955!

Photographs and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron (with help from Ian’s Bus Stop website)

20/07/15 – 05:42

The first photograph is almost certainly taken along the A320 near Staines, looking South with the bus heading North. The offending bridge is still there, and regularly struck by buses on charter and heading for Thorpe Park. The surrounding scene, unsurprisingly, has changed beyond all recognition.

Grahame Arnold

23/07/15 – 08:51

Always fascinating to see photos—and especially interior shots—of these twin-side-gangway deckers. Fine dignified design.

Ian T

24/07/15 – 05:44

I have heard about twin gangway lowbridge buses, but only ever had the doubtful pleasure of travelling on the single offside gangway type – mainly Hants & Dorset and Southern Vectis, but a couple of journeys on Seaview’s Titans. How was the nearside gangway reached once one got to the top of the stairs?

David Wragg

24/07/15 – 05:46

I remember the low bridge vehicles of Newcastle Corporation and United ‘among others’ they were a standard low bridge layout with four seats across, and a single sunken gangway down the off side which ran from the top stair, and had a step up over the drivers cab. Never having seen one of these before, how on earth did you get to the nearside gangway?

Ronnie Hoye

25/07/15 – 06:05

If I understand the drawings correctly there was a lower height gangway running transversely between the rearmost seat and the nearside gangway.
Incidentally National were not owned by General but had an area agreement with them. When the railways bought in to National, geographic names got added, Eastern, Southern and Western, but not Midland.

Stephen Allcroft

26/07/15 – 06:35

Further to Stephen’s comment on the area National names, I believe both Midland and Northern National were registered, to protect the names from use by others. However Northern was never used, there being no obvious company in the National empire, and Midland was not used, as it became an operating area of Eastern National, almost entirely separate from the main Essex Eastern National area. In 1952 it was transferred to United Counties, increasing that company’s size. Eastern National then regained size by the transfer of Westcliff on Sea Motor Services, and the take over of Hicks Bros and others in Essex at around that time. (Moores of Kelvedon survived for another 10 years or so).

Michael Hampton

27/07/15 – 06:42

Thanks Stephen, now we know how, the next question is, why? I suppose it made sense to someone, but I don’t understand the logic in having an extra gangway which reduces seating capacity, and would presumably be more expensive to build.

Ronnie Hoye

27/07/15 – 17:07

The conventional lowbridge layout must have been extremely inconvenient at busy times. If the person furthest from the gangway wished to alight, the other three passengers on that seat would have to unload themselves into the gangway and move forwards to let them out. If similar things were happening on the seats in front, the result could be the passenger equivalent of gridlock! Providing an extra gangway would completely eliminate this problem.

Peter Williamson

27/07/15 – 17:08

I guess the objective was to speed up boarding and alighting times, and perhaps make fare collection easier as well. Certainly being a conductor on an offside gangway lowbridge bus must have been a challenge.

David Wragg

30/07/15 – 06:14

I recall travelling on Hants & Dorset lowbridge Bristol Ks between Poole and Bournemouth on occasion. They had the gangway on the nearside upstairs IIRC, and it certainly was chaotic if the bus was busy. It must surely have led to delays, and issuing tickets to the passenger/s furthest from the gangway must have required some dexterity and conductors with very long arms!

Grahame Arnold

30/07/15 – 08:43

Did Leyland have some kind of patent on the single gangway design, or am I deluded?
In more prim & proper days it may have been felt undesirable with single gangways for gentlemen to be clambering over ladies’ knees to leave their seats? Still is, really. These designs always seemed a necessary evil, as big operators seemed to dispose of these types when bridges permitted- and hence the appeal of the Lodekka, although this presumably also gave an opportunity for standardisation in a limited market.

Joe

31/07/15 – 06:31

Unless I am mistaken, the bus in the top picture by V.C. Jones on the 461 route bears the registration GF 7214; this identifies the bus as ST 140.
In the late 40’s/early 50’s, Harrow Weald (HD) garage was host to ST 136, ST 141, ST 162 and ST 1090. At various times I rode on all 4 of these fascinating vehicles on Route 230, which had two low bridges, one of which was in Headstone Drive, Wealdstone close to the now defunct Kodak factory.

Jon Harry

31/07/15 – 06:32

As a youngster, I remember low bridge buses with an off side gangway, but instead of one seat going four across, they were staggered two by two, with the nearside pair being slightly further forward, but I cant for the life of me remember where I saw them. Newcastle had All Leyland PD2’s and Park Royal Regent V’s, and United had ECW Bristol KW’s, but I don’t think it was either of them. Moor Dale had a couple of Ex Ribble PD2 White Ladies? or it may have been whilst I was on holiday with relations who lived in Kilmarnock ‘Western territory’.

Ronnie Hoye

31/07/15 – 06:32

I seem to recall seeing photos of piano-fronted buses with about a 3/5ths wide central roof-bulge down the whole length, front to back. If this isn’t one of my wildest imaginings, was this the earliest variant of a lowbridge bus? I don’t think that they had anything to do with the Beverly Bar.

Chris Hebbron

31/07/15 – 09:03

Chris, what you describe would seem to have been early AEC Regents with the “camel roof” body design. This was a normal highbridge body that had the roof level lowered except for the central section over the gangway. I imagine that one had to be careful not to bang one’s head when leaving one’s seat. The reason for this rather futile idea was to give the visual impression of a low roof line to compete with the Leyland Titan lowbridge design. It was soon abandoned.

Roger Cox

31/07/15 – 09:03

Chris, perhaps they were ‘tunnel’ buses. LTPB had some for the Blackwall tunnel.

David Wragg

31/07/15 – 13:39

Ref : Tunnels.
Did Buses as well as trams use the Embankment to Kingsway tunnel?

John Lomas

01/08/15 – 06:33

Ronnie, in 1952 West Yorkshire experimented with staggered upstairs seating on a 1951 lowbridge Bristol KSW6B (830, later renumbered DBW12: KWU368). The original rows of bench seats for four were replaced by staggered rows, each offering their four occupants their own individual seat, each seat being staggered back from the one to the left of it. The bus was loaned to United Auto in December 1952 for evaluation, so could this have been the one you rode on Ronnie? (If this is the case, I’m sorry if I’ve given you’re age away!). West Yorkshire’s 1953 delivery of KSWs, to be their last, were delivered with staggered seating upstairs, these being KSW6Bs 853/854 (later renumbered DBW33/34: LWR419/420) and KSW6Gs 855-864 (later renumbered DGW1-10: LWR421-430).
I still have vivid memories of riding upstairs perched on the gangway end seat of WY’s earlier lowbridge KSWs, as they swung around the sharp lefthand turn from Otley Road into Market Street, Shipley, on their way to the bus station. Not an easy task when you have only your left buttock on the seat, whilst the right one hangs in mid-air, attempting to defy gravity with only its attached skinny schoolboy leg to offer support. I’d put up with this all again however, just to ride on such a wonderful beast.

Brendan Smith

01/08/15 – 06:35

No, John L, although an experimental trolleybus was built and run through a few times. It had a normal nearside open platform, with an offide entry/exit, too, with sliding doors, necessary because the subway ‘stations’ had island platforms. The trolleybus roof was too high for it to use its poles, so would have had to stow these, gone through on battey power, then put the poles back up! I also read once that turning circles inside were tighter than with trams. When the tramway system closed in 1952, the subway closed with it.

Roger C – You’ve hit the nail on the head, (the clever metaphor won’t escape you!). I’d forgotten that Leyland did Lowbridge and Hybridge bodies which took added advantage of the low TD1 chassis. AEC’s futile camel-roof design was probably one reason for poaching Rackham from Leyland!

David W – The ‘Blackwall Tunnel’ buses were built much later than the ones I had in mind. They had conventional roofs, which were slightly more rounded. One feature they had was tyres with reinforced walls to extend life, since they rubbed along the kerbs of the two tunnels. Perhaps they even swopped the tyres offside/nearside periodically to further extend life. John H – Route 230, along with the 127 Morden-South Wimbledon, were the only two lowbridge routes in LT’s ‘red’ Central Area. The 230 was usually served by the unique ‘unfrozen’ lowbridge STL’s of 1942, whereas it was usually the green Country Area buses from Reigate which covered the 127 until 6 (later another 6)’austerity’ Daimler ‘D’s’ appeared in 1944.

Chris Hebbron

01/08/15 – 07:06

I recall travelling on Uniteds route from Newcastle via Bedlington to Ashington in Northumberland in 1963 I knew of United having 2 ECW Bristol’s KW’s In its fleet. Seating being 4 across always seemed to cause problems when full to capacity.

Alan Coulson

06/04/16 – 16:24

Ronnie, re your comment 31.07.2015 my apologies for this delayed reply but I am a newcomer to this group. North Western RCC had such a layout on a batch of 10 PD2/21s with Weymann bodied Orions KDB 671-670. There was quite a bit of publicity in the Stockport newspapers at the time about the technological “advances” with these staggered seats and the next time I was in Mersey Square I went inside one to have a look. Frankly, I couldn’t see what the fuss was about. According to Glory Days these buses were not liked by the crews.

David Revis

London Transport – AEC Regent Bluebird ST – APC 168 – ST1037

APC 168

Photo: Copyright unknown

LGOC/LGCS/LCBS
1932
AEC Regent
LGOC H26/22R

The Bluebird six-wheel LT was an impressive and attractive variant of the LT class, but the Bluebird ST was rare. ST1037 was one of the first 8 of a total of just 23 Bluebird STs which London General built for their expanding green Country Services. Initially allocated to Windsor Garage by LGOC, under London Transport, it quickly moved to North London , serving at Tring until mid 1948, when it was transferred to Reigate for storage, then quickly re-allocated to Watford High Street Garage as a trainer.
Never having had an overhaul, looking very careworn, with deformed lower panels and body sag extending from bottom to the underside of upstairs windows, she is shown at Epsom Downs on route 406F on the shuttle service from Epsom Station to Epsom Downs during one of the Epsom Racecourse events, most likely around Derby Day, when any bus capable of moving was dragged out of dusty corners over to Morden and other places to operate shuttle services., Post-war, this attraction was often the death knell for some of these loyal, decrepit, worn-out servants, the stigma of imminent doom appearing as a crudely-chalked cross on the nearside wing! In December 1949, the axe fell and she was sold to Daniels of Rainham for scrapping and an undeserved end after over 17 neglected years of service. Not bad for a vehicle with a design life of about 10 years!

A couple of asides:
Note the Morris 8 maintenance van on the right 
Route 406F used the highest suffix letter ever by London Transport.
Some history of this vehicle taken from the excellent Ian’s Bus Stop website.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

18/04/20 – 05:48

Route 406F still operates on major race days, using the same route number and must be the last survivor of the Bassom route numbering scheme.

David Todd

19/04/20 – 06:05

Thx for that, David. Amazing the way some things survive in the most obscure and unique ways. It would not be surprising if the suffixes A to E disappeared years ago!

Chris Hebbron

20/01/21 – 06:53

Your text is slightly incorrect, Chris. These buses were delivered in the red livery of London General Country Services. Apparently the green country bus livery was first introduced in May 1933 prior to LT becoming operational. I presume the green livery as introduced in May 1933 was all over mid green with black relief and plain General fleetnames, that being the initial LT Country Bus livery. Apple green relief around windows was added later and in 1935 a new version with less black and possibly a different shade of the darker green along with London Transport fleetnames became standard. You can find pictures with LT fleetnames on the earlier green livery as well, the fleetname having been introduced in 1934.

PS: Surely the text should read “Never having had a post-War overhaul”?

Andrew Colebourne

31/05/21 – 05:02

Thx for posting the early history of these vehicles, Andrew.
As for overhauls, Ian’s Bus Stop makes no mention of pre-war overhauls, although there is mention of three of them having CHASSIS overhauls at Chiswick in 1948. It did nothing to prolong their lives, however, as all of the remaining ones went during 1949 anyway. It’s unlikely that they had postwar ones, for those LT and LTL’S which did have post-war body rebuilds, by outside contractors, lost their waistline cummerbunds, which this one still retains.

Chris Hebbron