Tag: London Transport

London Transport – AEC Routemaster – CUV 308C – RML 2308

London Transport - AEC Routemaster - CUV 308C - RML 2308

London Transport
1965
AEC Routemaster
Park Royal H40/32R

OBP seems yet to have a picture of Routemasters in the Country Area livery, so here is one. RML 2308, delivered to London Transport in November 1965, is seen at Biggin Hill in the following year. These green buses, which totalled one hundred in two batches of fifty, RML 2306- 2355 in 1965 and RML 2411 -2460 in 1966, were all powered by the AEC AV590 engine de-rated to 115bhp, the same setting used in the earlier RT type, though the RML was 5cwt heavier. Semi automatic gearboxes were fitted rather than the fully automatic variety used in the Central Bus Routemaster fleet. The 410 ran between Bromley and Reigate on an hourly headway, with intervening “short” journeys between Bromley and Biggin Hill; the picture above shows RML 2308 operating such a “short”. Because of a low railway bridge near Oxted station, the 410 route was run for many years by lowbridge double deckers, notably by the “Godstone” STLs ((Godstone being the operating garage) and then by the RLH class (20 diverted Regent IIIs from a Midland General order for 30, and a further 56 built for LT). In the early 1960s LT(CB&C) yearned to standardise the Godstone fleet on RTs, and became impatient about the delays to the promised lowering of the roadway beneath the Oxted bridge. I was then a clerk in the South Divisional Office at Reigate, and pointed out that the offending bridge could be circumnavigated easily via Station Road East, then under the high bridge on the A25, and back into Oxted via East Hill Road. This solution was eagerly leapt upon, and RTs replaced the Godstone RLH fleet in November 1964. This allowed full interworking of the routes 409 (West Croydon – Godstone – Forest Row) 410 (Bromley – Godstone – Reigate) and 411 West Croydon – Godstone – Reigate). When the roadway under the Oxted Station bridge was ultimately lowered some time later, the 410 reverted to its original route. The LT Country Bus business passed to the National Bus Company in January 1970 under the name London Country. In 1978, with Routemaster mechanical spares becoming akin to hens teeth, and London Transport snapping up such parts as did become available, the entire London Country RML fleet was sold to LT, who repainted most of the vehicles red for service in London, though RMLs 2306, 2337, 2417, 2420, 2421, 2423, 2424, 2425, 2426, 2427, 2433, 2436, 2438, 2448, 2449, 2458 and 2459 were immediately scrapped for spares. In the early 1990s LT replaced all the original power plants in the survivors with Iveco and Cummins engines, RM 2308 suffering the inflicted indignity of a Cummins motor in 1993. It continued to serve London Transport until its withdrawal in March 2004.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

02/12/19 – 06:37

In actual fact, the Central London RM’s and RML’s had an either/or gearbox.
If top gear was selected when stationary, the bus would be in automatic mode, however, the driver had the option of driving them as a semi auto, and changing gear manually.
Unless fully loaded, or pulling away uphill, second was usually selected to pull away.
It may well be that in later life they were all converted to fully auto, but they weren’t when new.

Ronnie Hoye

02/12/19 – 09:46

The Central Bus Routemasters had fully automatic gearboxes with manual over-ride, a feature of auto boxes that continued into the later age of buses with auto transmissions by ZF and Allison, though not with the (dreadful) three speed Voith. Nowadays it seems that this feature has gone for buses, and the driver’s only over-ride option is kick-down. The Country area RMCs, RMLs and RCLs were semi auto only.

Roger Cox

03/12/19 – 06:30

I don’t know if its the way they’re set up, but some buses are awful. They seem to snatch when they change up, and lurch when changing down. The poor driver always gets the blame, but in reality there’s not a lot He/She can do about it.
Driver properly, a bus with a manual box, be it three pedals or semi auto, will always give a smoother ride than an automatic.

Ronnie Hoye

03/12/19 – 06:32

I had the pleasure, until recently, when prevented by ill health, of being a regular driver of RML 2440 a refurbished and re-engined bus – owned by Peter Cartwright. This most definitely was of the Fully automatic type. The coaches were semi-auto only – RMC and RCL.

David Oldfield

03/12/19 – 09:15

RML 2440 was sold by LCBS to London Transport in June 1979. It then went into Aldenham for conversion to LT specifications, including the addition of full auto operation of the gearbox before entering service as a red bus. In ‘Country’ service it was semi auto only.

Roger Cox

06/12/19 – 06:51

Your suggestion, Roger, about avoiding the low bridge at Oxted, which presumably was not greatly disadvantageous to passengers, is typical of a situation whereby nobody thinks of a solution for decades and it’s staring them in the face!
It certainly seems odd to my eyes in seeing a bus routed for 410 which is not lowbridge. I’m sure I’ve said before that the unique lowbridge STL’s (always with their sliding doors open, to avoid being illegal) would appear from time to time at Morden to cover overhauls of the lowbridge red D’s on the 127 and latterly lowbridge Tilling Bristol K’s, sometimes green and sometimes red!
With the ex-Romford Green Line D’s coming to Merton Garage, which took a while to repaint them into red, pre-war RT’s on the 93 and Maidstone Corporation Daimler CWG6’s, Morden Station’s Forecourt was was a real hotchpotch of colour, types and companies. Wonderful!

Chris Hebbron

08/12/19 – 06:18

There is a lot of truth in what Chris says, especially in large organisations. People become blinkered, because things have always been done in a certain way. A new employee with fresh set of eyes can often reveal new ways of doing things, that no one has previously thought of. It’s all a bit like the Hans Christian Aderson’s “The King’s New Suit of Clothes”. Send for Danny Kaye!

Mr Anon

09/12/19 – 06:25

Ah, Danny Kaye. I always recall “The Court Jester” – The constant muddling up of “The pellet with the poison’s in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!” Classic!

Chris Hebbron

09/12/19 – 12:20

Chris, if memory serves the quote from Danny Kaye went something like,
“The flagon with the dragon is the chalice with the malice, the vessel with the pestle is the brew that is true”. How do I remember that?

Stan Zapiec

09/12/19 – 16:27

Here is the script gents
//www.irossco.com/comedy/poem10.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzmnSyqv37A

John Lomas

13/12/19 – 12:17

Wonderful stuff. Dedicated to everyone, who has been to the shops on behalf of their partner, then come back with completely the wrong thing.

Mr Anon

Chesterfield Corporation – AEC Reliance – 495 ALH – 18

Chesterfield Corporation - AEC Reliance - 495 ALH - 18

Chesterfield Corporation
1960
AEC Reliance MU3RA
Willowbrook B42D

Chesterfield bought this bus from London Transport it was RW1 in their fleet. Roof windows were more likely to be found on dual purpose or coaches rather than on a bus but this bus had them. It also had a dual entrance with, as usual at London Transport a front entrance and centre exit, I am not sure if Chesterfield changed it to front only doors. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.

A full list of Reliance codes can be seen https://old-bus-photos.nwframpton.com/abbreviations/here.

Nice photo of the RW, Chesterfield had just gone one man and from then until the mid 70s bought a lot of 2 door buses (about 75) double and single deck. The RWs (Reliance/Willowbrook) was the standard bus for several years in Grimsby-Cleethorpes, London tried 3 but then went for Swifts and Merlins.

David Harrison

Chesterfield obviously liked the RW Reliances as they were followed by a fair number of Neepsend/East Lancs Reliances. All of them had centre exits, which the RWs also retained. They were then followed by Daimler Roadliners – total disaster – and Leyland Panthers. All of these were also dual door.

David Oldfield

As an aside, what is the part-view single-decker with the stepped side windows on the right of the RW?

Chris Hebbron

I think the bus behind the Reliance is ERA 95. A pre-war gearless Leyland Tiger that had been given a manual gearbox and converted into a mobile canteen. If not it could be one of the single deck Crossleys, but they were all withdrawn when the Reliances arrived as they were their replacements.

Ian Couzens

BBF5 (1965 edition) shows 12 Crossley single-deckers on the fleet strength as well as the RWs, which arrived in 1963. The part of the body visible looks identical to the Crossley body on the preserved Chesterfield Leyland PS1. I should be very surprised if anything prewar had a stepped waistrail like that, since it appears to be derived from the post-war Manchester double deck design.

Peter Williamson

Glimpsing that Crossley-bodied single-decker I assumed the chassis was also Crossley, but the rear hub (had to look hard!) identifies as a postwar Leyland, two of which I understand are preserved.
I 1966 I arranged for a college nr Reading to buy NRA 717 and later became a part-owner. We passed it on to Alan Smallie of Worksop as a source of spares for his sister ships. Is either of them on the rally circuit?

Ian Thompson

One or two of the Crossleys survived quite late, although I think in some instances at least not in passenger service.
Chesterfield had Crossley single-deck bodies on PS1s, SD42s and, uniquely, on AEC Regals but I have never seen a picture of the AECs

David Beilby

Leeds also used roof line windows on single deckers in the nineteen fifties. Their small fleet of saloons were all centre entrance with vertiginous steps and carried 34 seated and 20 standees. The windows were so standing passengers could see the outside world! Leeds first dual door saloons Roe bodied AEC Reliances did not have the feature but it reappeared on the Roe bodied AEC Swifts in the late sixties. These were eventually painted over in PTE days

Chris Hough

In answer to David Beilby, there was a booklet; Tramlines to Fleetlines, a history of Chesterfield Transport, published by the Council and Transpire, the Chesterfield bus society which contained a picture of one of the Regals, JRA 653 (credited to R Marshall) It was one of four, I too thought they must have been unique! Not sure if the book is still around today, perhaps Transpire could help.

Chris Barker

Nice pics of Chesterfield Crossley-bodied Leyland PS1 JRA 635 on YouTube: Novawheels.

Ian Thompson

I’ve just noticed that the Reliance is described as MU3RA. Bus Lists On The Web has it as 2MU3RA. However, I once met one of these buses later in life with Brutonian, and it was semi-automatic, which would make it 2MU2RA. Does anyone have a definitive answer to this?
I’ve made an enquiry about the Transpire book. Meanwhile those interested in Alan Smalley’s Crossleys may like to take a look at this slideshow.
(No, neither of them is on the rally circuit.)

Peter Williamson

I’m told that the best place to enquire about the booklet “Tramlines to Fleetlines” would be Terminus Publications. Contact details at here.

Peter Williamson

Tramlines to Fleetlines refers to the early post war single deck vehicles all having Crossley bodies:-
2 x Leylands
4 x AEC Regal
20 x Crossleys
There were also 30 all Crossley d/deckers
The two Leylands were converted on withdrawal as PSV’s to a mobile canteen and a driver trainer – I suspect that it may be one of these two that feature in the photograph

Andrew Charles

09/02/11 – 06:33

I drove this bus for Chesterfield Corporation the lights were terrible not fit for rural work and it mainly worked the colliery routes around Chesterfield

Colin Ellis

24/03/11 – 06:31

These buses would regularly pick us up from school for our weekly visit to Central Baths on Ashgate Road in about 1971/2. They were often used on the more rural routes to places like Calow Green and Barlow etc. As a kid, I wondered why the upholstery of these buses was finished in red where other Corporation buses had the usual green upholstery.

Michael Ashley

24/07/12 – 18:19

When I was a small boy in Sheffield in the 1950s, my mum worked for Stephenson Blake, typefounders in Sheffield. For many years, the Stephensons took the staff and family members for a summer Saturday afternoon out to Hassop Hall in Derbyshire where they lived. On the occasions that I was taken we always travelled from Sheffield to the hall in Chesterfield Corporation single deck buses. It sticks in my mind that they were Crossleys and that they struggled a bit on some of the Derbyshire hills with their full load! We had a bit of a tour round before arriving at the Hall for the afternoon.
Sorry this isn’t very technical but I hope someone finds it of interest.
Presumably the buses were hired from Chesterfield because they were cheaper than Sheffield?

Stan Zapiec

25/07/12 – 07:01

The three RW class Reliances entered service with London Transport (Country Buses and Coaches) in August 1960, about the same time as I did – I started work from school at Reigate South Divisional Office on 29th August. Having standardised from 1952 on the dependable RF Regal IV for full sized single deck requirements, LTE started to make a cautionary appraisal of the Reliance, first with the RW, and then, in 1965, with the 36ft RC class (a fiasco that deserves a posting of its own on the site). The three RW buses had Monocontrol gearboxes and were thus of the 2MU2RA type, as Peter Williamson has correctly pointed out. The Willowbrook bodywork was added on to a production order for Grimsby Cleethorpes, and was of B42D configuration in line with LTE’s increasing interest in dual doorway buses.
Inevitably, the serious shortcomings of the AH470 engine soon became evident, and the inflexibility of the LT maintenance system built entirely round the removal of defective parts and replacement by Chiswick reconditioned units exacerbated the difficulty. LT garages did not have the expertise at local level for analysing and fixing engineering problems, a feature that was to emerge even more seriously later with the DM/DMS Fleetlines. The RWs were tried out on rural routes round the Country Bus system – I rode on them on the hilly 440 service between Woldingham and Salfords (near Redhill) – where the dual doorway concept proved to be something of a liability in constricted stopping places. After a mere three years in service, the entire class was withdrawn in October 1963, and then sold to Chesterfield in December of that year. Astonishingly, two of these buses still survive. Only RW1 featured in the picture above ended up in the scrapyard. The restoration of RW2 and 3, though entirely creditable, does illustrate yet again the distorted bias of the preservation movement towards LT vehicle types.

Roger Cox

26/07/12 – 14:15

497 ALH-Bruton

RW3 (497 ALH) has been much in the news this year, having made its preservation debut at Cobham and subsequently taken part in the Brighton run. Its owners have undoubtedly done a first-class restoration. But this is how I remember it: as number 15 in the fleet of the Brutonian Bus Company of Bruton, Somerset, with whom it ran from 1978 to 1987. Seen here in the yard in 1983.

Michael Wadman

27/07/12 – 08:29

…..but I remember it as a Chesterfield bus.

David Oldfield

21/01/13 – 17:27

As a youngster I can well recall our journeys on the Owler Bar to Fox House part of the Summer Saturday and Sunday only Chesterfield – Fox House route 7. In those days, the route was via Cordell Valley, with a stiff climb up to Owler Bar. The Leylands (PS1’s) would growl and snarl their way to the top. the Crossleys (SD42’s) would struggle and my dad would often ask the conductor in jest if we could mash a pot of tea. The drivers had a struggle in getting away from the Owler Bar stop – no auto boxes then. I recall a visit to Derbyshire in the early 70′. The route was renumbered No. 4 and re routed via Holmesfield, an extension of the existing run from Chesterfield. Perhaps the buses of the 70’s were not man enough for the climb from Cordwell Valley To Owler Bar. I don’t think the route exists any more

Jerry Wilkes

22/01/13 – 06:42

Had a meal with my brother and sister in law at the Peacock, Owler Bar, just after Christmas. I well remember the Chesterfield buses on the Fox House runs – and Cordwell Valley was a favourite childhood haunt. The Panthers and Roadliners might not have been man enough for the job but the Neepsend Reliances were regular performers.

David Oldfield

14/09/14 – 07:13

I used to be a bus driver for Chesterfield Corporation Transport from 1966 to 1884. I drove all these buses on Homes Field Barlow the reason they used these buses was because the other buses was 36 feet long these was a lot smaller they had small buses on No9. Spiral run as well. I really enjoyed working as a bus driver with the Chesterfield transport until they brought in one Manning it took all the thrill out of working on the buses.

Brian Nicholls

11/09/16 – 07:28

Remember, the Crossley bus was on route to Fox House on Whit Monday 1965 1967.

Geoff

13/10/17 – 06:24

Please can anyone remember the mystery tours I believe on Sunday afternoons from Chesterfield East Midlands bus station!!…They went around the Peak District!! In mid 1960s….

Lyn Davey

18/01/18 – 09:09

I have only just found this site and find it very interesting as i worked for Chesterfield Transport for 39 years.I drove the 2 old ex-London buses and as i recall they spent a lot of time on Chesterfield to Spital route via Eyre Street, and had to do a reverse at the far end of Spital Lane. I can also remember the old Leyland that was converted to the Mobile Canteen. I worked on this old bus for 3 years.When it was converted it was driven as H.G.V.instead of P.S.V.

A. Ward

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

04/05/19 – 06:38

I went to school on ex-Chesterfield Weymann bodied PD2 (221 GRA and 229 LRB) both owned by Mulleys Motorways, of Ixworth, Suffolk. Both registrations were transferred onto newer coaches.

David Willis

London Transport – AEC Reliance – 497 ALH – RW3

497 ALH

London Transport
1960
AEC Reliance 2MU2RA
Willowbrook B42D

497 ALH, AEC Reliance 2MU2RA with Willowbrook B42D body, dates from 1960. She is, of course, better known as seen here in London Transport’s RW3 guise, although she spent some time with other operators – notably Chesterfield with her two sisters. She’s seen at the Alton Rally on 21 July 2013.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/03/15 – 17:36

Given the widespread use of this combination within the BET empire, was it just the apparent “not designed in Chiswick” attitude that stopped this type from becoming the successor to the RF in both London Country and Green Line service.

Phil Blinkhorn

29/03/15 – 17:36

This is another example of a manufacturer’s standard type that didn’t last long in London Transport service despite giving good service to many other operators across Britain. Rochdale to name one had some virtually identical vehicles that had full service lives.
Where London Transport’s operating conditions so much different from the rest, particularly in the outposts of the Country area, that they seemed unable to sustain vehicles that ran happily for years with other operators?

Philip Halstead

30/03/15 – 08:04

Phil and Philip,
I suspect you are both right. I’m sure Mr Cox will have something to say on this!!!

Pete Davies

30/03/15 – 08:05

There is already a post of RW1, when in service with Chesterfield Corporation and a very useful post by Roger Cox explaining why it was not popular with London Transport. It’s recorded that the engine/fluid flywheel/gearbox, being mounted in one piece, suffered from overheating problems. Obviously, this was overcome by either LTE or Chesterfield Corp’n, for these vehicles to have had such long subsequent lives. However, removing the unsuitable centre-exit was an expensive option for just three vehicles, hence LTE’s likely disposal, although they could just have been disconnected!
LINK: //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=584

Chris Hebbron

30/03/15 – 08:06

These buses have been discussed on OBP before – see Chesterfield Corporation “AEC Reliance – 495 ALH – 18”. The three RW buses joined the London Transport (Country Buses & Coaches) department at the same time as I did – in August 1960. They were LT’s first experience of dual doorway buses, and drivers strongly disliked the feature. On rural routes, where stopping points were often just hard standing cut beck into the hedgerow at the stop post, the central door opened to reveal an impenetrable barrier of vegetation. They were tried out all round the Country area to a universally stony reception, not just from the operating staff but from the engineers as well. At this time London Transport ran a fleet of totally standardised, bespoke vehicles tailored to the rigid Chiswick/Aldenham maintenance system. LT bus garages did not have “engineers” in the sense understood by Company and Municipal operators. LT employed “fitters”. If something went wrong with a vehicle at LT, the offending component was removed and sent to Chiswick, and a fully overhauled part fitted in replacement. The RW buses were London Transport’s first experience of the new breed of AEC wet liner engines, and garages just lacked the knowledge and skills required to remedy the faults that arose in daily operation. The traditional ‘send the part to Chiswick’ mentality couldn’t apply. LT simply capitulated to its absurdly inflexible maintenance system and got rid of the three RWs. However, a virtual carbon copy of the whole sorry saga took place again in 1965 with the Reliance RC class of Green Line coaches. Nevertheless, the ponderous maintenance system still persisted, later showing its deficiencies with the DM/DMS Fleetlines, deemed “unreliable” by LT despite being of a type that ran entirely successfully with everyone else in the land. The MB/MBS/MS/SM types suffered similarly. Strangely, the only exception in this sorry tale proved to be the original eight XF Fleetlines operated by the Country area from 1965. These ran until 1981, proving the soundness of the basic design (i.e. free of LT meddling modifications). They outlasted all the other ex LTE types in LCBS service. The scandalous squandering of public money by London Transport was a national disgrace.

Roger Cox

30/03/15 – 08:06

There are some thoughts here: //www.countrybus.org/RW/RW.htm   Overheating is mentioned, together with difficulties with the centre exits in rural locations.

Peter Williamson

30/03/15 – 14:34

I remember these 3 buses coming to Chesterfield for use on one man services however it was common for them to be used as crew buses. I remember this one was no20 I conducted it one day on the Barlow routes.

Ken Wragg

31/03/15 – 06:53

It’s rather surprising they bothered with the centre exit for the country area. Even taking on board all Roger points out, single door vehicles for the country routes, a dual purpose equipped single door version for Green Line and a dual door version for the central area would likely, with any other operator, have been seen as ideal. Instead they spent money and kept the drawing office busy by updating the RFs.

Phil Blinkhorn

31/03/15 – 10:12

Thank you, gents, for your further thoughts on this shambles. As Roger says, it has been discussed at length in the past. It was not just LT who didn’t like the DM/DMS Fleetlines, however. Readers may recall that a fair number came down to Wilts & Dorset and Hampshire Bus. Stagecoach bought Hampshire Bus and decided that the Southampton area was not profitable enough, so they sold it on to Solent Blue Line, along with the allocation of vehicles.
Among that allocation were Fleetlines. The then manager of SBL decided he didn’t want them, and arranged an exchange with the former Ribble “high” Bristol VR fleet at Carlisle. One of my friends was among the SBL drivers on the exchange visit. He told me at the time it was the fastest the Fleetlines had ever moved, so eager were the local drivers to do the exchange.
Following on from that, we had VRs with Cumberland and Ribble fleet names trundling around Southampton for several months, for the legalities to be sorted out. I was told that not a single one of the Fleetlines moved away from Keswick Bus Station until a scrapper removed them, but the appearance of an EFE model in the ‘deregulation’ Hampshire Bus livery but with Carlisle fleet names suggests otherwise.

Pete Davies

31/03/15 – 15:55

10 DMs and 8 RMs went to Cumberland in part exchange for the highbridge VRs in 1987. The DMs retained their Hampshire Bus numbers 1917-1926 and as far as I am aware most if not all received the attractive CMS Cumberland livery of ayers red and oatmeal. They were placed in service in Carlisle and survived until October 1988 when Stagecoach replaced them with new Olympians. There were also 4 ex SYPTE Ailsas involved in the deal which were not popular and only lasted a couple of months or so. I have never seen a picture of one of the Ailsas in service so perhaps these were the buses that languished at Keswick Pete?

Update on those liveries after trawling the web. It seems the DMs entered service in Carlisle in a mix of poppy red(?), Hampshire Bus blue, white and red, and in CMS ayers red. Its a pity EFE didn’t choose the latter! There are also a couple of pics of the Ailsas working so that doesn’t explain the Keswick conundrum either!

Mike Morton

01/04/15 – 06:22

Thank you, Mike. So that’s where the Ailsas went! I did wonder. I have a photo of one of them in HB livery in Southampton. If you’d like one, I’ll send it to Peter and ask him to forward it. It, clearly, isn’t suitable for this site!!!! I see the captcha code is MW49, or is that MW4G – a bit under-powered, perhaps!

Pete Davies

02/04/15 – 06:26

Whatever the merits or otherwise of these Reliances, surely the point is that LT didn’t actually need any more single deck buses at this stage, being full up with RFs. Agreed, the RFs were very heavy and thirsty and perhaps a case could have been made for some replacement by lighter and more fuel efficient buses, but even that seems unlikely.
Was this more a case of a manufacturer trying to interest its customer in something than the customer actually having a need for something new? LT didn’t actually buy any more single deck buses (as opposed to Green Line coaches) until the Merlin/Swift era.

Richard Delahoy

02/04/15 – 06:27

I wonder why LT specified quarter-lights. I see that Chesterfield painted over them.

Geoff Kerr

02/04/15 – 16:51

Peter, would love to see the Ailsa. Much appreciated.

Mike Morton

03/04/15 – 05:36

Chesterfield did not paint over the quarter lights.

Ken Wragg

04/04/15 – 06:36

Must be an optical illusion, Ken. Other photos show them still in use.

Geoff Kerr

10/06/16 – 16:43

In answer to Roger Cox view about the operation of the Reliance class (RW) during their brief but fruitful stay with London Transport over the three years…
It was nothing to do with the servicing of these vehicles at the garages but purely the economics that came out of the research programme.
Many of London Transport country routes in the 1950 and 60s had interworking schedules not like the LT central area where one bus would work a number of different routes during a roster. This provided challenges as some routes such as LTs 383/384 at Hitchin would be in town for a period and then out into to remote countryside.
The routing and operational challenges here were often loadings, terminating agreements, and the remit to go to one person operation where in some instances a conductor was required to facilitate the reversing based on vehicle size.
In addition, LT wanted to increase the capacity of their vehicles and reduce route timings to improve efficiencies (debatable as history shows).
There were initial issues with the running of this type….. Overheating and the reliability of the doors were just two but generally they went well in comparison with the Regal Four (RF) and Regent (RT) double deck types.
LT found quite soon that operation of the slightly wider body in narrow lanes and two the door arrangement proved unpopular with staff and passengers (as Roger highlighted) in country locations when the vehicle was positioned to pick up passengers at the stop…. the centre doors would be out of position for alighting.
Drivers by default would have to double stop to let passengers on and off making the centre doors redundant and increase schedule timings as a result. Councils who had responsibility for the stopping points were not willing to fund widening or a new alighting point without subsidy. LT in the end decided that it would not be feasibly at that time to continue with this arrangement. This is just a potted history of events and there were other political / operational issues besides.
Hope this helps

Colin Rivers (one of the fortunate owners of RW 3)

10/06/16 – 19:35

Some very interesting thoughts there, Colin!

Pete Davies

Smith’s Luxury Coaches – AEC Regent III RT – FXT 262


Copyright Ray Soper

Smiths Luxury Coaches (Reading) Ltd
1940
AEC Regent III RT
LTPB H56RD

This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

Smith’s Luxury Coaches – AEC Regent III RT – FXT 283


Copyright Ray Soper

Smiths Luxury Coaches (Reading) Ltd
1940
AEC Regent III RT
LTPB H56RD

This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

Samuel Ledgard – AEC Regent III RT – KYY 868

Samuel Ledgard AEC Regent III RT type

Samuel Ledgard
1950
AEC Regent III RT
Park Royal H30/26R

Before this bus arrived at Samuel Ledgard it was owned by Super Coaches of Upminster who acquired it from of course London Transport. The fleet number whilst at London Transport was RT 4265.
All the information for this entry came from Peter Goulds excellent website, I hope he doesn’t mind, to visit his site click here

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

Samuel Ledgard – AEC Regent III RT – MXX 148

Samuel Ledgard AEC Regent III RT type

Samuel Ledgard
1949
AEC Regent III RT
Weymann H30/26R

In 1937-8 London Transport got together with AEC to jointly design and produce a new double deck chassis with AECs large 9.6 litre oil engine with air operated gearbox and brakes. From what I can gleam the prototype entered service in 1938 as ST1140 (EYK 396) but it had a body taken from a scrapped Leland Titan TD 111 or 118 seems to be a bit of a dispute on that. But in July 1939 it was given a brand new body and was then renumbered RT1. London Transport then ordered 150 more, RT2-151 which were delivered by the time production ceased in 1940 because of the war those 150 were bodied by London Transport themselves.
I have another dispute here and that is by the end of production in 1954 according to one source nearly 7000 RTs had been delivered to London Transport but another source says that the highest fleet number was 4825 that’s a difference of 2000 or so. Maybe the 7000 is for total build but I do not think there was that many delivered new to other operators do you know leave a comment.

There were 4825 RT’s but the RT Family included RTL’s and RTW’s so the figure of nearly 7000 is probably correct.

Anonymous

The RTL was a Leyland Titan PD2/1 chassis with Leyland O.600 engine but with AEC preselect gearbox and bodied by Park Royal 1149, Metro-Cammell 450 and Weymann 31 all to a London Transport design.

The RTW was as the RTL except they were PD2/3 and all bodied with 8 foot wide bodies instead of the normal 7′ 6″ and all 500 were bodied by Leyland.

There was also the SRT which were 1939 AEC Regent STLs rebodied with brand new RT bodies there was 160 built in total.

So that makes 4825 RTs 1630 RTLs 500 RTWs which makes 6955 so there is the approx 7000 and if you add in the 160 SRTs this will give a total of 7115.

Spencer

New 7/12/1952
A.E.C. Regent III RT 0961  Chassis No: 6758
Engine Type: AEC 6cyl. A204  9.6ltr
Weymann H30/26R
Body No: W269
Entered Ledgards service 5th November 1963
Withdrawn: 14/10/67
Sold To Dunn (A1 Service) 02/68
Withdrawn: 11/71

Terry Malloy

What a nostalgic shot-a Sammie RT alongside some of West Yorkshire’s finery, and set in Chester Street bus station. There always seemed to be an RT parked up either there or in Otley bus station, as they were so numerous in the fleet. They had a lovely reassuring tickover, plus a delightfully tuneful transmission (fluid flywheel/pre-selector gearbox) and seemed to have an aura of indestructibility about them. Shame West Yorkshire didn’t keep a few running after takeover. It would have been interesting to see some in red and cream, almost harking back to their London days….

Brendan Smith

Brendan it is not generally known that, in the very hurried arrangements for the WYRCC takeover of Samuel Ledgard, West Yorkshire fleet numbers were allocated for most if not all of the Samuel Ledgard vehicles.  The entire RT class, at least one of which (MLL 920) received a new C of F in the final week, were to be DA 1 – 34.  I was lucky enough to be the first driver of the very first Otley Depot RT – NXP 864, RT 4611.  It was overhauled and ready for use in the garage one Saturday night and I just couldn’t contain my excitement so pestered the late garage man to let us use it for the last two trips of our late turn. 8.10pm Otley – Leeds, 8.55pm Leeds – Otley, 9.50pm Otley – Leeds, 10.35pm Leeds – Otley.
As expected it swallowed up the long ascent of the A660 to Bramhope in very fine style and comfort.

Chris Youhill

12/01/17 – 11:21

I think one or two comments on Spencer’s post (above) are appropriate.
The chassis of the RTLs and RTWs differed from PD2/1s and PD2/3s in having a longer wheelbase (16’4″ instead of 16’3″) and air brakes (instead of vacuum) – there may have been other differences. I don’t think Leyland ever called the RTL/RTW chassis PD2/1 or PD2/3.
There were 32 RTLs supplied new with Weymann bodies (RTL1307, 1601-31), making the RTL total 1,631 and the RT/RTL/RTW total 6,956.
The SRTs came about by virtue of there being more new bodies available than chassis, so 160 ‘RT’ bodies were placed on existing STL chassis to make the SRT class. When the supply of chassis caught up the SRT bodies were transferred to new RT chassis, but those are included in the RT total of 4,825 – so to get the total of ‘RT’ family buses up to 7,115/6 you’re counting the SRT bodies twice.

David Call

13/01/17 – 06:41

The picture shows MXX 148 on Ledgard’s longest stage carriage route, one taken over with B & B Tours in the mid 1930s. The destination shown is “Bradford via Otley and Manningham Lane” and the display for the return journey is just visible “Harrogate via Manningham Lane and Otley.” I was always surprised that Menston Village was not mentioned, this being the chief “attraction” of the service compared with the WYRCC direct 53.

Chris Youhill

13/01/17 – 06:42

David Call is right about the why of the SRT but although the frame modifications were extensive, amounting to a complete re-profiling of the side members of the chassis,what was not upgraded was the engine (7.7) gearbox (spring-operated) and brakes (vacuum).

Stephen Allcroft

13/01/17 – 06:42

I agree with David in his view that the RTL and RTW classes were not classified as members of the PD2 breed. Ken Glazier, whose knowledge on London Transport matters I have always found to be impeccable, gives the RTL as type 7RT and the RTW as type 6RT. The SRT was purely a stop gap to present a modern looking fleet in the early ‘fifties when chassis deliveries lagged behind bodywork supplies. In typical LT fashion, the STL type chassis under the RT type body was ‘modernised’ at ridiculous expense, and the whole project foundered when it became apparent that the brakes were decidedly incapable of stopping the bus effectively. By that time, chassis supplies were outpacing body deliveries, which is why LT turned to Cravens and Saro, so the whole SRT programme was a fiasco in every way. As for the 7000 total figure for RT/RTL/RTW classes, OK, but there were never that many in service at the same time.

Roger Cox

13/01/17 – 10:09

……and they had to move the fuel tank to the other side of the vehicles too, Stephen! The other tragedy was that the STL’s selected for conversion to SRT’s were the 1939 15STL16’s, the most modern STL’s in the fleet and pretty-well up to RT standards in many respects, having automatic chassis lubrication, amongst others. And why not, for London Transport had hoped that this batch of STL’s would be RT’s which, in the end, turned out to be wishful thinking.

Chris Hebbron

London Transport – AEC Regent III RT – KLB 593 – RT 1344


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

London Transport
1949
AEC Regent III RT RT3/3 
Saunders H56R

I have dated this bus by its registration and as KLB started being used in July 1949 so I thought it was a fairly safe guess. I have also stated that its original body was buy Saunders who built a batch of 250 RTs fleet numbers RT1152-1401 between 1948-50. After the war AEC produced RT chassis quicker than Park Royal and Weymann who were the allocated body builders could supply bodies so two other companies Saunders Engineering, Anglesey, Wales and Craven, Sheffield, Yorkshire were used to prevent a backlog. I recently acquired a copy of “British Bus Fleets” London Transport 1965 edition and I thought you may be interested in the opening comment about the RT bodywork I quote below.

Because of London Transports rigid standardisation scheme, most RT and RTL bodies are interchangeable. When a chassis as passed through the Aldenham overhaul works (about every four years) it is very rarely re-fitted with the body it bore previously, except the buses with GB plates.

So it would be fairly safe to say that the bus above as a different body when this photograph was taken than when it was first delivered, another little bit of evidence is that when it was first delivered it had a roof top route number box.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

RT bodies were jig built so that they could be interchanged – the jigs supplied by London Transport to Park Royal and Weymann, the major suppliers. Metro-Cammell also received jigs and I believe Saunders-Roe did.
Metro-Cammell and Weymann were entirely separate companies linked only by a marketing company MCW, rather like the milk marketing board. There were always minor differences between the products of each factory.
Cravens bodies were not jig built and were not really like the rest of the RT family. After their seven year certificate if fitness was up, they were disposed of as non-standard, as were the Saunders-Roe RTs whose construction was non-standard.

David Oldfield

The Saunders-Roe RT’s were difficult to distinguish from ‘normal RT’s, perhaps because they borrowed an RT to design their own bodywork from scratch, but the Craven’s ones were the Standard Craven bodyframe ‘tweaked’ to look as near to an RT as was possible. However, for a start, the bodywork had five bays instead of four; the rear of the bus, from about midway upwards, curved towards the front, making it look hunchbacked, and the rear emergency window was smaller. The front profile was subtly different, flatter horizontally than was usual. The fronts were an improvement on the normal design, the rear not, the sides neutral. This was not the first case of ‘tweaking’ bodywork for London Transport’s needs: Leyland ‘tweaked’ their TD4 bodies (pre-war STD class) to look like an STL and, to the layman, it did.

Chris Hebbron

I don’t know who might have taken this shot, but it was probably after 1949. The clue is the bus stops, which in 1949 Victoria still sported the LPTB design, which in turn was from the General stops with the bar circle and route numbers in large type.
RHB

The Saunders-Roe bodies were instantly recognisable from the offside by one little detail – the route number stencil was set further to the rear of the staircase panel than on the standard bodies. Personally I thought that the Cravens bodies were extremely pleasing in their own right and always liked them very much – quite a number were sold to Dundee Corporation, among many other operators, for further service. The postwar STD class, all Leyland PD1s, were very minimally “tweaked” and were a fine sight in London Transport livery and even retained hinged cab doors. Splendid indeed though the standardised RT family concept was, the exceptions were a fascinating subject, and we mustn’t forget the unhappy SRTs which I also found very appealing indeed, although their vast differences were largely mechanical rather than in body detail.

Chris Youhill

This photo was most probably taken in the mid-1960s – confirmed by the presence of the Routemasters and the advert for a BOAC flight to New York by VC10 in the background. Those were the days!

Paul Haywood

I am fairly certain that this photo was taken at some time in 1966. Here is the evidence:
The original Saunders body had a front roof route number box, whereas the body shown in the photo does not. The bus in the photograph has either a Park Royal or Weymann body, received on overhaul in July 1961. So the photo must have been taken after July 1961.
Before 1964 the Route Blinds consisted of upper-case lettering. The photo clearly shows lower-case lettering. So the photo must have been taken during or after 1964.
Bus Route 52A was operated by Edgware garage. RT1344 was transferred into Edgware in January 1963. It remained there until 1969 before spending a few years as a trainer. So the photo must have been taken at some date between 1964 and 1969.
Bus Route 52A was only operated (in this form) from 23rd January 1966 to 31st December 1966. So the photo must have been taken at some date in 1966.
Furthermore, Route 52A (in this form) only operated on Sundays ! (six RT’s from Edgware and seven Routemasters from Willesden) The bus was scrapped in May 1971. I hope that the above is of interest !

John Perthen

Further to my previous comment, this photo was taken at Victoria Bus Terminus outside the (then) Southern Region British Rail station.

John Perthen

06/02/11 – 09:15

I lived in Borehamwood until 1963, I am sure I travelled this route (52A rather than 52), during my ‘bus spotting days’, with the Ian Allen books, whilst using a Red Rover ticket. I lived not more than 200 metres from the route in Manor Way. I know the route 52 was one I used many times to finally get home after a day uptown spotting.

Rob

09/08/11 – 17:49

I have a builders plate from an RT which was given to me by my brother-in-law back in the late 60s early 70s, it is the normal Weymanns plate fitted over the conductors station on the platform, he was a driver at Watford garage and “acquired” it for me as I was also a driver for Bristol Omnibus Company in Bristol and a keen transport fan. What I am wondering is, can you give a rough estimate of the vehicle it came from? The series of patent numbers on the plate are as follows, 447826, 498947, PROV.8954/49. It may be a ridiculous hope, but you never know, thanking you in anticipation.

Dave Knapp

10/08/11 – 06:40

The mentioning of the non standard RTs reminds me that J J Longstaff of Mirfield had at different times two Saunders and one of them had a top box. The joint service between Dewsbury and Mirfield operated by themselves and Joseph Wood and Yorkshire Woollen was numbered at least by YWD as service 11 so number 11 appeared in the box only for YWD to complain that it was their number so was hurriedly painted out.

Philip Carlton

30/03/12 – 07:16

Like the vast majority of London buses since General days, this RT not only has a different body it also has a different chassis. The system pertained until about 1983 after which it was discontinued when vehicle testing was re-(dis)organised by the Thatcher government.

Looking closely at the photo of RT 1344 at Victoria I spy that the 52A route number is being displayed. At the time of the photo, RT 1344 was allocated to Edgware and I drove it on a number of occasions. The photo must have been taken on a Sunday as EW only worked on the route on that day and the 52A blind is incorrect as the route ceased to exist after 2nd January 1962 when it was superseded by the 292. That was the day that Colindale trolleybus depot closed and we were transferred to various bus garages such as Hendon, Crcklewood and Edgware. The 52A route number was still on the EW blinds up until they were withdrawn from the garage in 1971.

Alan Bond

10/09/22 – 05:41

According to the comprehensive Ian”s Bus Stop website, the original Saunders body of this bus was replaced at Aldenham in 1961 by a standard 3RT8 body, though whether Park Royal or Weymann is not specified. However, given the Aldenham practice of simply and swiftly attaching registrations and fleet identities on to vehicles as they emerged at the end of the overhaul line, in all probability the bus depicted has no relationship at all with the Saunders bodied bus that originally bore the number RT 1344. In 1966 RT 1344 went through Aldenhan again and “reappeared” as a standard Park Royal bodied 3RT8. The only accurate method of tracing the bus histories of the LT fleet would be by tracking down chassis numbers. The Saunders body, which had a different frame construction method from the Park Royal and Weymann types, was very highly regarded by the London Transport engineers which is why, despite its outmoded roofbox style, the examples stayed in service for a full service life. I am pretty certain that no Saunders body ever had its roofbox removed by London Transport, but, this being OBP, perhaps someone knows differently.

Roger Cox

11/09/22 – 05:55

I have found a record in the LT archive showing that RT1344 came into Aldenham for overhaul in 1966 with body no. 8529, which was by Park Royal. So we can say with certainty that whether the RT1344 in the photograph was the product of Aldenham ’61 or Aldenham ’66, it had a Park Royal body.

Peter Williamson

Samuel Ledgard – AEC Regent III RT – NXP 764


Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Samuel Ledgard
1953
AEC Regent III RT
Park Royal H30/26R

Here is a nice shot of a couple of ex London Transport Regent RTs in service with Samuel Ledgard the fleet number of the one in the foreground was RT 4410 unfortunately I can not make out what the registration of the one behind. I think the Samuel Ledgard livery makes the RT look better than the London Transport more or less overall single solid colour especially on black and white shots. The Samuel Ledgard fleet was taken over by West Yorkshire Road Car in October 1967 but this vehicle was not operated by them, did it go to scrap or was it sold on, it would be interesting to know what happened to the Ledgard RTs, if you know please leave a comment.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

NXP 764 carries the body of RT 307 registration HLX 124 built 1947.
This was done as part of a 4 year service overhaul whilst in London.

Further details for NXP 764:
New: 1st December 1953
Purchased by Ledgard: 25th May 1963
Chassis No: 7491
Body No: L 156
In stock with Ledgard until the end it was sold to W. North at Sherburn in Elmet April 1968 (dealer).
No further info after that.

Terry Malloy

NXP 764 was disposed of by North’s to Johnson, Goldthorpe, a dealer, in June 1969 sadly for scrap.
The disposal of the Ledgard RTs was very complicated indeed but many saw further service both in this country and in Belgium and Holland.
NXP 764 was the first RT to enter service from Armley Depot, and NXP 864 similarly at Otley – where, on a Saturday late turn, I persuaded the garage man to let us take it on its maiden voyage – 8.10pm Otley to Leeds and back twice.  Of course it was all newly ready for service but otherwise would not have gone out probably until Monday morning.
I think its not generally known that all the Ledgard RT bodies were old ones from around 1947, originally fitted with roof route number boxes – the very neat “operation scars” where these were removed by SL can clearly be seen on photos.  During overhauls they were fitted, of course, to chassis of every age ranging from 1947 (HLW 181 etc) to 1954 (eg OLD 705).
The London Transport policy was to withdraw the oldest bodies first- understandable.  Having said this, they were all without exception if first class order – a good looking and well constructed design indeed.
Some good news to this very day – LYR 915 is still beautifully preserved and rallied, although in its original green LT Country Area livery.

Chris Youhill

London Transport – AEC Regent III RT – NLE 826 – RT3719


Copyright Victor Brumby

London Transport
1953 (registration date)
AEC Regent III RT – RT8/2
Weymann H30/26R

Two weeks ago my contribution for the ex London Transport STL2117 was posted on this site, the shot was taken in April 1958. At about the same time that shot was taken, spiffing new RTs were coming on stream, and here is a shot of KGU 191 RT2262 and new NLE 826 RT3719 at the old Stevenage railway station route terminus. Would I be right is saying that NLE 826 RT3719 was one of many stored new at Loughton garage for ages, awaiting entry to service as NLE was 03/53 – 11/53, presumably because RT production had exceeded requirement?


Copyright Victor Brumby

Or was OLD 528 RT4742 one of those last entrants to the fleet? (In Green Line rig, unusually……) Seen according to my notes at Hitchin along with AEC Regal IV LUC 225 RF25 which was last in the first batch of 25 Regals delivered at the 27ft 6in length and were classed as Private Hire Coaches for sightseeing tours and the like. In the mid 50s ten of the batch 16-25 were transferred to Green Line. Unfortunately the glazed sightseeing roof panels can not be seen in this shot.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby

27/01/12 – 17:37

According to the vehicle histories on “Ian’s Bus Stop” website, RT 3719 entered service at Windsor (WR) garage in May 1953, and transferred to Hitchin garage in 1957. (//www.countrybus.org/)
His histories haven’t got as far as the 47xx sequence, but RT 4742 was (according to Ken Glazier’s “London Buses in the 1950s”) one of those delivered straight to storage in 1954 and entering service between March 1958 and August 1959. Ken Blacker’s definitive work on the RT class lists dates of entry to service, but I do not have a copy to hand.
The appearance of (bus livery) RTs on Green Line coach services was not that uncommon – many routes at that time had one or two peak hour duplicates, and most routes required relief buses particularly on summer Sundays – to cater for Londoners visiting the countryside, and (where routes served new towns such as Stevenage) visits between new town residents and their friends and relatives still living in inner London.
The provision of a few RTs in semi Green Line livery (green central band, Green Line transfers between decks) at country bus garages to cater for this happened in 1960 (again, according to Ken Glazier’s book.)
There is more about Hitchin garage (closed 1959) here – //www.ampyx.org.uk/  – the building is still standing, although I understand there is a current planning application in which will involve demolition.

Jon

29/01/12 – 07:32

According to Ken Blacker’s RT book, RT4742 (OLD 528) was indeed one of those stored for the first few years of its life, finally entering service in March 1958, at SV (Stevenage, Fishers Green).

Bob Gell

27/08/12 – 07:58

Firstly can I say how pleased I was to see the photo of the RT’s at the old Stevenage Station, I can only just remember this Station, I was five when it moved, and new ‘AN’s were coming on stream. The other photograph of the Green Line RT is a real gem, as it is the only photograph I have seen, besides one in Ken Blackers ‘RT’ book of the first Stevenage depot, situated in a cul-de-sac off Fishers Green Road, behind the old Station which was in use as a temporary outstation of Hitchin & Hatfield until the new depot in Danestrete opened in 1959.

Alec Bright

06/11/12 – 06:46

Just a quick note to confirm that the building shown behind the RT is Stevenage Fisher’s Green, and not Hitchin. You will find a 1990s image of the garage with its curiously pitched and slanting roof span on my web page: //www.ampyx.org.uk/
The story unfolding in Hitchin today is complex, and the local historical society are still trying to persuade the planning authorities of the value of the structure. You may have seen coverage in BUSES an B&CP magazines.
By coincidence, the National (later UCOC) garage in Fishponds Road was demolished in September of this year.
I am shocked at how much revision of my historical pages is necessary. Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

Jonathan Wilkins