Solent Blue Line 1963 Leyland Titan PD2A/30 Massey H31/26R
This PD2A/30 was new to Exeter City Transport in 1963, with Massey H57R bodywork. In this first view she was with Solent Blue Line, a subsidiary of Southern Vectis, established by two disgruntled managers of Southampton Citybus in 1987. Most of the time, 01 was the training vehicle, but she did operate peak journeys on some routes, notably between Southampton City Centre and the Thornhill Estate. A colleague who had the misfortune to travel on her on these occasions described her as a wreck. The current version of that route uses Mercedes Citaros! This view was taken at the Netley rally on 23 July 1989.
Copyright Pete Davies
In this second view, also at Netley, but on 12 July 1992, she has been restored to her previous Exeter condition. What a difference a coat of paint and a bit of care can make!
In case anyone was wondering, the bus alongside in the second view is the Maidstone & District Atlantean, 558LKP.
Pete Davies
01/02/13 – 06:19
In the “as restored” photograph she seems to have an enclosed platform (with doors?), whilst in the earlier photograph she has an open platform . . .
Philip Rushworth
01/02/13 – 07:37
Looking at other photos on the web this seems to be a removable doorway to allow the owner to secure the vehicle on trips. There are plenty of pictures of it as restored without doors.
David Beilby
01/02/13 – 08:40
Our moderator and I were wondering how soon readers would notice the presence or absence of a platform door! 1hr 14mins is pretty good going David.
Latterly, Massey double deck bodies adopted a much squarer outline than the curvy designs of previously, giving them a less stylish but nonetheless quite purposeful air. Here we see one of Wigan Corporation’s final batch of so-equipped PD2’s, about to depart the town’s bus station for Wrightington Hospital, whilst a flock of archetypal bus station pigeons hover in the background. What is it about pigeons and bus stations?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
12/05/13 – 09:54
It’s interesting that this is the first appearance of a Wigan bus in the column on the left. For such a proud operator – look, no external adverts! – I’d have expected others to have got in before you, John. Thanks for posting. Wigan and Leigh, having both avoided the dreaded SELNEC were appalled at the thought they should both fall into the renamed PTE’s clutches by being absorbed into the new County of Greater Manchester. It’s very timely in view of yesterday’s FA cup result! Did our editor have his crystal ball polished specially while deciding when to post it?
Pete Davies
12/05/13 – 09:55
In Wigan bus station it was all about pecking the crumbs left by the Pie Eaters!! Well done Wigan on winning the Cup – now just ensure you stay up so the town truly becomes a first rate two sport venue. Oh, nearly forgot, the PD2. That front dome is very heavy – almost in the same league as Alexander’s Balloon Roof dome. The curvy designs were seen as dated by the late 1960s and the more upright front profile mirrors Manchester’s attempts with its Burlingham and MCW Orion bodied PD2s.
Phil Blinkhorn
12/05/13 – 10:15
Actually Pete, Leigh Corporation passed into SELNEC (Northern) with all the others in 1969. Only Wigan suffered as a result of the l974 fiasco.
John Stringer
12/05/13 – 17:20
I sit corrected, John!
Pete Davies
12/05/13 – 17:21
The front spot/fog light is situated in an unusual position. I assume the route to Wrightington Hospital was joint with Ribble – being numbered 343. Was Wigan the last operator to continue with coloured “identifier” lights? James (of Ammanford) used a single green light mounted under the canopy on half-cabs and outside the front near-side windscreen of underfloor single-deckers, the last being so fitted were its 1957 Tiger Cubs. Were there any other users between 1957 and 1974?
Philip Rushworth
13/05/13 – 07:43
Yes, Philip, the 343 was joint with Ribble. A similar one, the 333, showed DANGEROUS CORNER on some blinds. I trust the drivers took suitable precautions!
Pete Davies
13/05/13 – 07:43
Maynes still had their identifier lights after Wigan was absorbed into GMT
Phil Blinkhorn
13/05/13 – 07:44
This route was one I used often when living in Wrightington. It was joint with Ribble but each operator actually took a slightly different route. The Wigan version took a direct route while the Ribble version went under a low railway bridge which meant that it was always single decked. At the time I was using it these were Ribble’s iconic 36ft Leopards. This version of the service was numbered 333. Phil the green lights were discontinued from 1957 on saloon but retained on double deckers until the last deliveries in 1972
Chris Hough
13/05/13 – 15:43
Chris, did you find that the Ribble buses were governed so their top speed was around 30 mph? Frustrating if the bus was running late.
Jim Hepburn
14/05/13 – 07:52
There must have been a time when Wigan Corporation vehicles appeared on the 333 as I can remember seeing a photo (in BBF6, I think) of a Tiger Cub standing on the then Wigan Bus Station displaying the famous destination ‘333 Dangerous Corner’. My memory says that the route was extended to Wrightington Hospital in the early 1960s and the destination ‘Dangerous Corner’ ceased to be used. There could well have been periods when only Ribble vehicles appeared on the 333, but it would have remained technically ‘joint’ of course.
David Call
15/05/13 – 07:39
Wigan was one of a group of North West municipal operators who reverted to the Leyland exposed radiator after previously having deliveries of Titans with both the BMMO and St Helens style ‘tin fronts’. Stockport and Ramsbottom were the others that come to mind. Another interesting feature of the Wigan fleet was of course the unfathomable fleet numbering system. In the Ian Allan BBF’s the registration numbers were used to define the batches of vehicles with the fleet numbers being allocated in what appeared to be a completely random way. Does anybody know the reason for this (if there was one)?
Philip Halstead
16/05/13 – 14:00
Some of the posts on this site are critical of the role of the PTEs as bus operators – with reference to both their size and sometimes controversial liveries, although this is clearly a subjective matter. The PTEs have stood the test of time, despite the upheavals since 1969 in both the bus industry and local government, but it is interesting to speculate on what might have happened if they had been just coordinating bodies from the outset, with the bus operations left in the hands of local authorities. After all, there was already a great deal of joint operation in the area which became Greater Manchester, between the various municipal operators and between them and the company operators Ribble, LUT and North Western, and it seems that little was gained by creating a mega-operator with over 2,500 buses and standardised staff conditions etc. In 1974, local government reorganisation would have seen mergers between Wigan and Leigh, Bury and Ramsbottom and between Ashton and SHMD, maybe each with a new livery. While the last-mentioned would have been a merger of equals, no doubt the other two would have been seen locally as ‘takeovers’! This would have left Trafford as the only non-operating district. What would have been the implications of this?
Geoff Kerr
16/05/13 – 15:26
Geoff, a very interesting post which raises the potential of many hypothesis. I’m not going to speculate on what might have been but will make the following points: When Henry Mattinson established the Express Services in the late 1920s he prefigured SELNEC/GMT by 41 years and had he not died prematurely he may well have been able to both defend the services against the railways, taxi drivers and haulage companies and restructure the routings through the city to avoid Market St and the congestion thereon. There is some evidence that he had some form of deeper integration in mind. His successor, Stuart Pilcher, had other fish to fry but Henry’s far-sightedness led to an unprecedented co-operation, through running arrangements and revenue sharing which, by 1968 had become somewhat unwieldy, especially in terms of mileage sharing, fare structures and revenue split. Whatever the political motives behind the formation of the PTEs were, there was a sound economic, operating and purchasing reason to pull the bus operations in the conurbation together, local pride and the views of enthusiasts were a long way down the list of priorities. In effect the job was incomplete until GMT pulled in Wigan, LUT and the share of North Western. In GMT times, especially under Labour, there was a definitive drive to finalise what had been started over 10 years previously and to give the operation an identification with Greater Manchester in a similar way to that which had been the case when the pre SELNEC operators served there own areas. The SELNEC/GMT “standard bus” carried forward the well proven Manchester ideal of trying to achieve cost savings and spares rationalisation – though, as ever, there were a large number of deviations. The anomaly of Trafford not having an operator within its boundaries arises from the fact that, from tram days, MCTD had set itself up in competition with the Manchester, South Junction and Altrincham Railway which served Altrincham and, by default, Stretford and Sale on the way. As the route to Altrincham was the only real money spinner in the area, there was little room for the boroughs that now form Trafford to become involved, Manchester and North Western serving the branch routes off the A56. The history of Manchester’s tram and bus operation along the A56 is littered with obstruction from both Stretford Council and the railway so there is no doubt that any operator set up by Altrincham, Sale or Stretford would have had problems both with each other and certainly with Manchester, though the problem never arose as even an SHMD type operation between the towns would have had few viable routes. Had SELNEC/GMT never appeared, presumably after 1974, Manchester Corporation would have continued its presence in the Trafford area, as would NWRCC.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/05/13 – 07:19
Phil The idea of a single operating authority was also discussed in West Yorkshire in the thirties when the then Leeds manager W. Vane Morland suggested a PTE like organisation. One factor at the time which put brakes on the idea was the high degree of railway involvement in several of the operators. It is also interesting that from 1974 when the later PTEs were set up no more large NBC companies were dismembered. The companies based in the new West and South Yorkshire PTEs all had clearly defined territories where in the main the old municipal operators did not run except on joint services, indeed although West Yorks PTE was based in Wakefield it ran no services there. But oh how I wish LUT were still in existence!
Chris Hough
16/07/13 – 07:51
Hi Philip I live in Wigan & when I was a youngster used to have a fleet list (don’t have it anymore). I seem to recall that all the buses were numbered 1 to 150 & so each new bus took the number of one retired. Hence over time the numbering appears to be completely random.
Nigel
28/02/15 – 17:38
I used to drive, as a casual driver for Ribble Motors in the 1980’s, and believe it or not, the height warning in the cabs of the Leyland Nationals indicated that they wouldn’t fit under the bridge in Mill Lane, but they always did. JUST! When Red Bridge, at Standish Lower Ground still had its top span on, the newer double deckers that Wigan Corporation ran, wouldn’t fit under it. Only the older ones with the flatter tops would. So the newer ones always had a warning in the cab about this. Imagine my surprise when I was waiting for the bus in Shevington, to go to school round about 1957, and a newer bus arrived to pick us up. I said to my mate, “this bus won’t fit under the bridge” He told me not to be so stupid. Guess who was right?
Brian
01/03/15 – 06:48
I know the Dangerous Corner references are nearly 2 years old, but I have only just seen them. As well as Dangerous Corner on the A5209 near Wrightington, there is also a place with that name on the A577 near Atherton, I wonder if Wigan would have had that as a destination as well. There is even a 3rd location with that name, it is in Yorkshire on the A59 near Menwith Hill though I can’t see that one appearing on a bus blind.
John Lomas
01/03/15 – 06:52
The reference to pigeons reminds me of a certain inspector at a certain underground (well, under-carpark) coach station in Manchester who did not like passengers who asked an excessive number (i.e., 2+) questions. He carried a pocket full of bird seed and would quietly stroll behind said passenger, scattering the good seed as he went – the resulting flocks of pigeons soon sent the passenger on their way!
John Hodkinson
02/03/15 – 07:29
I don’t think Wigan Corporation ran to the Dangerous Corner on the A577 near Atherton but Leigh Corporation certainly did and carried that destination on their blinds.
Michael Keeley
02/03/15 – 15:37
Here’s a shot of a SELNEC ex-Leigh PD2 destined for the ‘other’ Dangerous Corner near Atherton. www.flickr.com/photos/81936099
David Call
02/03/15 – 17:56
With the “home made” style radiator grille, it looks as if it has had a more serious encounter at “Dangerous Corner” – this one or somewhere!
Michael Hampton
03/03/15 – 06:24
True, Michael- or was it cross-bred with a Guy – a Leyland Arabic?
Joe
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
28/01/17 – 10:58
I’m surprised no one has mentioned that this was one of the last Massey built bodies as Northern Counties took over in 1968.
Birkenhead 10 entered service in January 1958 with Birkenhead Corporation Transport. It has bodywork by Massey Brothers of Wigan which had been a major supplier of bus bodies to Birkenhead for various chassis since 1931. From 1957 to 1967 Birkenhead had almost totally standardised on the Leyland PD2s with Massey bodywork. Although there were inevitable changes in body design, there where essentially only two external appearances of body. The later design that had a more upright front profile is shown on the Wirral Transport Museum’s Birkenhead 152. In 1969 10 passed to the Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive (MPTE) where it served until February 1974. Although out of public service, 10 then spent a further six years of service in the driver training school. In 1980 Birkenhead 10 became part of the 201 bus preservation society. It is seen at NWVRT open day in June 2014 at Kirkby.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
01/09/14 – 07:30
Just a classic. Nothing more to say.
Phil Blinkhorn
01/09/14 – 18:50
I’ve always felt Massey’s bodies to be a bit of a mixed bag, in terms of some designs, but this one can’t be faulted. The Wirral was very colourful in this era, what with Birkenhead and Wallasey Corporations’ cheery liveries.
Chris Hebbron
02/09/14 – 06:46
The epitome of a British municipal bus. Straightforward chassis and body design coupled with a superb and tasteful livery. The fleetname and crest show a high degree of civic pride that existed with most municipals in those days. Also a clear and easily legible destination display with no need for the bus to be daubed in route branding graffiti like today. Sheer class.
Philip Halstead
16/04/15 – 06:46
Class indeed, and what a sight it used to be at the Woodside Ferry terminal to see dozens of these lined up, always looking smart, with the dull green Crosville buses terminating farther up the hill. I remember you could get off a bus (or a ferry) at Woodside and catch a train from Woodside Station to London Paddington. Now it’s all gone.
Mr Anon
07/10/19 – 07:25
Not all entirely gone as buses still go down to the Woodside ferry just nowhere near as many but the same goes for the river Mersey which once was busy with ships, boats, ferries up and down now a thing of the past but will once again be back but then even busier not in my lifetime though. My father in law drove this bus, and when he sadly passed away this exact same bus led the funeral cars to the church.
Lancaster City Transport 1957 Leyland Titan PD2/30 Massey H33/28R
998 AKT is a Leyland Titan PD2/30, was new to Maidstone Corporation in 1957, with fleet number 8. She has a Massey H61R body. In 1975, she and three sisters returned to their birthplace in the north west to join Lancaster City Council’s Transport Department, after the merger with Morecambe & Heysham in 1974. The new Council had a flurry of buying used vehicles in 1974/5, and Maidstone 8 followed the old Lancaster pattern of matching the fleet number with the registration, becoming 998. In this view, taken on 13 September 1975, she is westbound near the Grand Hotel, on Morecambe Promenade.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
20/11/15 – 06:54
There seemed to be something about Massey bodies and the seaside. Operators on or near the coast that had them that come to mind are Morecambe & Heysham, Lytham St Annes, Birkenhead, Great Yarmouth, Lowestoft and Barrow-in-Furness. Chester, Colchester, Ipswich and Exeter aren’t that far off the sea either being on tidal estuaries.
Philip Halstead
20/11/15 – 06:54
Lancaster City Council had been told by the Traffic Commissioner that the 1940s and early 1950s AEC Regents inherited from Morecambe were unacceptably old and that was the main reason for the secondhand buys. Maidstone around the same time had a new broom General Manager who was convinced that the town didn’t need heavyweight double deck buses and the same job could be done by a fleet of lightweight single deck Bedfords.
Stephen Allcroft
20/11/15 – 14:20
Thank you for your thoughts, Philip and Stephen. If I remember rightly, what Stephen says would account for the views I have seen of Maidstone Atlanteans with operators in the Glasgow area. Incidentally, the building site in the background, in the process of becoming a block of apartments, was rather controversial, being at the Promenade end of Princes Crescent. There were rumblings at the time of ‘deals’ between the developer and Morecambe & Heysham’s Town Clerk, who was about to become redundant through the Reorganisation. He had long been in dispute with his employers over his address. He was supposed to live within the Borough, but lived just outside it, in Hest Bank. His mother lived within the borough, and he had his post delivered there. The Captcha code seems vaguely akin to a Rochdale registration: RDK7 . . .
Pete Davies
20/11/15 – 14:21
This vehicle had been on hire to Alder Valley at Reading the previous year.
Paul Robson
20/11/15 – 14:22
What a superb livery! This livery would certainly lift modern double deckers, as opposed to the random ramblings that pass as liveries today.
Allan White
21/11/15 – 06:06
Let’s not forget Southend-on-Sea, too, Philip, with the livery colours of both fleets not being too dissimilar!
Chris Hebbron
21/11/15 – 06:06
Further to Allan White’s comment. At the time the fiesta blue and cream Maidstone livery was new, having been introduced with the trolleybus Replacement Atlanteans. After a green and cream livery, the GM’s choice, was rejected the Lancaster city fleet was painted Trafalgar Blue and white.
Stephen Allcroft
21/11/15 – 06:07
Yes, Allan, it certainly beats Maidstone’s previous brown.
Pete Davies
21/11/15 – 06:08
In the mid-1970s I knew both the Lancaster Chief Engineer and the depot foreman at Morecambe, and did not hear any suggestion that they were under orders to get rid of the Regent IIIs. I was told that the local examiner was inclined to ‘pull a face’, but that was as far as things ever went. If the relevant bus met the required standards, there wasn’t much anyone could do. Of course, the Regent IIIs weren’t getting any younger, and no doubt costing more to maintain as time went by. I was one of four enthusiasts who purchased No.72 (MTC540) for preservation in 1975, and (for our own interest) we were given a copy of a list of jobs which would have needed to be done for a recertification, which Lancaster had apparently considered. It was an uncomfortably long list, for a vehicle with a very limited life expectancy.
David Call
21/11/15 – 06:09
The traditional livery at Maidstone was an attractive brown and cream worn by buses and trolleybuses alike. Trolleybus replacement began in 1965, and the new buses introduced the pale blue and cream livery shown in the photo above. In 1974 things changed dramatically at Maidstone when Alan Price became Manager of the transport dept. In that year local government reorganisation saw Maidstone Corporation become the extended Maidstone Borough Council with control over the old rural district councils to the south and east of the former Corporation boundaries. Maidstone then sought to run bus services in its new extended area which had hitherto been the province of Maidstone and District, and under the NBC Market Analysis Project, integration did occur under the name “Maidstone Area Bus Services”. Until 1974 Maidstone had operated a high quality all double deck fleet. Under its new manager this was quickly replaced with OPO Bedford Y type lightweight single decks and all double deckers had gone from service by 1979. In that year, to commemorate the 75 years of Maidstone municipal transport, a bus was repainted in the old brown/cream livery, and, for a while, this became the new standard again. In the meantime, surplus double deckers that had not been sold were hired out to other operators in that period when British Leyland was falling catastrophically short in the supply of new vehicles and spare parts. As the Maidstone fleet expanded to meet its enlarged aspirations, many second hand vehicles were pressed into service still in the liveries of their previous owners. Then, in October 1986 came deregulation, which, amongst its numerous stupidities, outlawed area operating agreements as being “uncompetitive”. Thereupon, Maidstone and M&D became competitors, with the Maidstone business relaunched as Boro’line. A new Best Impressions livery of blue and yellow with red and white trim (to my eye as every bit as grotesque as it sounds) came in at the same time, and double decks, new and second hand, reappeared in the fleet. In entering the new competitive environment, M&D adopted practices that later became the subject of the highly critical Competition Commission enquiry of 1993. To further its expansion, Boro’line succeeded in winning some London Regional Transport contracts. Unfortunately, Boro’line was not entirely adept at costing its operating activities, and began accruing very large debts. The whole business was offered for sale by Maidstone Borough, and Kentish bus took the London contracts early in 1992. A receiver was appointed to sell off the remaining operations but very few takers could be found. Discussions with more than 30 prospective buyers fell through. In the meantime, several buses were repossessed, though services struggled on. The end came in June 1992 with the sale of the of the residual business to Maidstone & District.
Roger Cox
21/11/15 – 06:09
The stories of the happy marriage of Maidstone & Morecambe fall into the category of “you couldn’t make it up”. They replaced 25 year old (and more) buses with 17 year old buses…? Maidstone were embracing the mini fashion which has swung to the opposite end now, with oversized buses on urban streets. I think a good compromise would be a 26ft double decker, 7ft 6in wide and carrying 56 passengers. A rear loading platform would speed travel, as would employing apprentices or “conductors” who could train as drivers once they had learnt the routes. It would never catch on…
Joe
22/11/15 – 11:34
Joe, you comment on the ‘happy marriage of Maidstone & Morecambe’. I think you mean the very unhappy, shotgun, marriage of Lancaster and Morecambe. So far as the thoughts about open rear platforms, apprentices helping to load the bus and learn the routes go, well, RADICAL isn’t in it! I did some afternoon conducting on some of Southampton’s preserved buses (the operation had by then become Southampton Citybus) during afternoons off from my job with the Council, and was amazed at how many folk said much the same thing: it was nice to have a bus with a conductor, and the engine and entrance where they ought to be. I mentioned this to the MD and he declared the thought to be economic suicide. You’re right, Joe – it won’t catch on!
Pete Davies
22/11/15 – 11:35
There is an excellent article in Classic Bus 135 (Feb-Mar 2015) on the Lancaster undertaking written by Thomas Knowles who was GM of the combined Lancaster – Morecambe & Heysham operation from its outset. Mr Knowles gives a fairly candid view on some of the problems he encountered in running the newly combined outfit. There are also some excellent photos illustrating the article.
Philip Halstead
23/11/15 – 06:27
No, Phil- the happy marriage of convenience of Maidstone & Morecambe- one with too many buses and one with too few! Not conductors, mind… interns or…runners… pupils… there were/are plenty of jobs where you do or did earn next to nothing for the privilege of learning the job. I don’t think the unions ever saw it this way..
Joe
24/11/15 – 13:48
Trafalgar blue is used by Lancaster City Council to this day to paint shelters and stops perhaps they are trying to tell Stagecoach something!
Caerphilly Urban District Council 1952 Leyland Tiger PS2/5 Massey B35F
Fleet number 1 in the small Caerphilly concern was allocated to this less than common Massey-bodied single-deck Leyland PS2/5. Chassis number is 520623 and the body is number 2083 B35F. This image was taken at Bus & Coach Wales in Merthyr Tydfil 14/09/2014.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
12/01/17 – 06:46
Very nice, Les! Thank you for posting. I particularly like the shape of the ‘valance’ forward of the door.
Maidstone Corporation’s No 43 registration NKK 243F was a rather rare combination of Massey body on the Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 chassis with H43/31F seating being one of only thirty two rear engine chassis bodied by Massey Bros. Of this total Maidstone Corporation bought twenty all on Atlantean chassis No’s 27-46 and Colchester Corporation bought ten also on Atlantean No’s 45-54, the other two went to members of A1 Services of Ardrossan one on the only Daimler Fleetline chassis bodied by Massey which was followed by one on an Atlantean. All thirty two had the same seating layout as the photo’s subject. Several of Massey’s regular customers who bought from them on front engine chassis chose not to go to them when rear engines became the order of the day which possibly contributed to the later merger with Northern Counties.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
20/04/14 – 09:32
By 1968 most bodybuilders were producing bodies with a more shaped frontal aspect on rear engined chassis but to my eye this is quite an attractive functionally boxy body, aided by a simple but effective livery.
Ian Wild
20/04/14 – 17:36
I Worked for Connor & Graham, Easington East Yorkshire in 1982 and we had three of them, I was told he bought two and later the dealer phoned and gave the third one free, the bodywork was very sound as it was used on school run from Sunk Island to Withernsea and to Hull on Saturday, I left in 1983 I think they were Maidstone Corporation Nos 28,29 and 31.
Phil Savin
21/04/14 – 06:22
I agree with Ian, although boxlike, I thought the Massey design was quite attractive and far better looking than some other builders designs where curved or wrap-round windscreens were indiscriminately ‘grafted’ on leaving some real ‘hotch potch’ end results. The livery also helps. Tasteful, traditional and practical.
Philip Halstead
21/04/14 – 06:23
Wigan had at least one AN68. Were there any more – for Wigan or anyone else?
David Oldfield
21/04/14 – 10:49
David Northern Counties bought Massey Bros in 1967. The final Massey deliveries to Wigan Corporation were Titans FEK1-9F in early 1968. The first AN68s delivered to Wigan Corporation were NEK1-10K in August 1972.
Dave Farrier
22/04/14 – 05:04
Ah. Right. Obviously NCME then. Not to a Massey outline by any chance?
David Oldfield
24/04/14 – 08:18
London Country borrowed six of these buses during a period of acute vehicle shortage in 1977. They were operated out of Chelsham Garage on the busy 403 group of services across Croydon to Wallington. I rode on several of these at the time, and noted the high standard of internal finish of the Massey bodies, but the PDR1/1 Atlantean did struggle a bit on the long gradient up to Sanderstead Church. In the mid 1960s, Massey double deck design went from the extremely curvaceous to the excessively angular. The Pemberton firm was very late entering the rear engined double deck bus market, and this application of the perpendicular was its eventual offering. It would seem that, from then on, some structural componentry must have been common to rear engined and front engined double deck bus bodywork, because the latter type, hitherto very rounded, then became very squared up. It was as if the firm had become revitalised by memories of its markedly austere wartime utility designs. The bold angularity of these Atlanteans was not unattractive, but the vertical front screens must have given problems with internal reflections from the interior lighting during hours of darkness. I was never a convert to the insipid and rather grubby pale blue and cream livery. To my eye, the colours do not complement each other – the lighter colour would have looked better had it been white with black lining out – but Maidstone really should never have abandoned in the mid 1960s the magnificent ochre and cream livery that I recall adorning the trolleybuses when I was a child living in Kent during the late 1940s. Maidstone, once a proud operator, seemed to go progressively downhill in its metamorphosis from ‘Corporation’ through ‘Borough Council’ to the ultimate horror of ‘Boro’line’ with its truly ghastly blue and yellow, with red and white trim, so called “livery”. Take a look at this if you don’t believe me. No prizes for guessing the perpetrator of this abominable colour scheme. No wonder the Boro’line outfit eventually went bust. //victoryguy.smugmug.com/Maidstone
Roger Cox
24/04/14 – 08:18
When NCME took over Massey, they moved into the former Massey factory and some subsequent NCME bodies showed a marked Massey influence, particularly around the front of the upper deck. None were identical to past Massey products, however.
Peter Williamson
09/08/17 – 16:58
There is a Leyland Atlantean with Massey body in Northern Ireland which is used as an “activity centre”. The vehicle spends most of the year in under cover storage but has re-emerged this summer. It is devoid of any identity but can only be an ex Colchester or Maidstone example. Did any of the C&G ones go to Ireland, or can anyone reveal more about what this vehicle may be.
Bill Headley
20/02/19 – 06:34
Did the identity of the Massey bodied Atlantean in Northern Ireland ever got established? I too liked the Massey bodied examples. They looked different from the Alexander, MCW, Roe, Northern counties etc.There aren’t many left.
Roy Wolstencroft
22/02/19 – 06:25
I have scrutinized Shane Conway’s excellent ‘Classic Irish Buses’ website and have been unable to find any trace of a Massey-bodied Atlantean. As you’ll gather, the site is pretty thorough. www.classicbuses.co.uk/+Leyland Bill Headley (above) says that the one in Northern Ireland is devoid of any identity, but it must carry a registration plate, if only a Northern Irish one. Perhaps it could be identified from that. How close is it possible to get to the said vehicle? There is likely to be some source of identification on it, somewhere.
Birkenhead Corporation 1944 Guy Arab II Massey H31/28R
From the mid 1920s up to the outbreak of WW2, Birkenhead Corporation had been a confirmed Leyland aficionado, specifying Massey bodywork for a significant proportion of the fleet since 1931. With the advent of WW2 and the utility bus era, Birkenhead was allocated the Guy Arab II, hitherto unknown in its fleet, the first two arriving in 1943 with Weymann H30/26R bodywork. Thereafter Birkenhead managed to have most of their Arabs fitted with Massey H30/26R bodies of that company’s severe utility outline. BG 8557 was one of Birkenhead’s second batch of Arabs totalling twenty two, that arrived in 1944, all of which had Massey bodywork. A further twelve Arab IIs arrived in 1946 with bodywork shared between Massey, Park Royal and Northern Counties. The robust and dependable Arab clearly impressed the Corporation, for Guys featured in its order book at times right up to 1956. BG 8557 was originally numbered 324, but, in 1953, it was one of fifteen selected for rebodying with new Massey H31/28R bodywork when it received the new number 242. This bus was withdrawn in 1969 before becoming part of the new Merseyside PTE, and went into private preservation. It is seen at Brighton on the occasion of the May 1970 HCVC Rally, and now resides with the Wirral Transport Museum.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
18/10/21 – 07:09
Fine, distinctive vehicle! Many thanks to those that saved it and brought it to this superb condition. Seeing the lower-deck seating capacity of 28 I assumed that the new body must have been over 26′ long, but even allowing for the angle of the photograph the rear overhang doesn’t look excessive. A google search then revealed that the original 5LW engine had been replaced by the longer 6LW, but of course Arab IIs were built with the snout whichever engine was installed. I still wonder whether the “new” length may be 26’6″ or thereabouts. Would love to see and hear it in the flesh!
Ian Thompson
19/10/21 – 05:42
Ian, it is possible that the length may be as you surmise, because the body was built to a width of 7ft 9ins for weight constraint reasons. The wartime Arab, like other Utilities, had a relatively heavy chassis because lighter metals formerly employed for certain components were diverted to military needs.
Roger Cox
19/10/21 – 05:45
The seating capacity seems to be an error – see lettering on this photo There is actually a way of getting 28 seats into the lower deck of a 26-footer. By reducing the longitudinal seats over the wheel arches to 2-seaters, it is possible to fit an extra pair of lateral seats, with the seat backs sitting directly on the front of the wheel arches. But that is not the case here.
Peter Williamson
20/10/21 – 06:27
Thanks for that picture, Peter, which corrects a widely misquoted error. Even Bus Lists On The Web gives the incorrect lower deck figure of 28 for all the Birkenhead 1953 rebodied Arabs.
Roger Cox
28/10/21 – 06:54
As a tall person, I was very conscious of how stingy Birkenhead was with legroom, notably the H36/30R layout on the final batches of PD2s. (6 rows of laterals plus 2×3 longitudinal). Although I have no memories of twin seats over the wheel arches on any vehicles, I wonder whether the quoted 28 was originally intended in the way Peter Williamson suggests, and either not implemented or changed at a relatively early point in their new life. The Venture volume on Massey Bros quotes the H31/28R figure, but of course this may still be derived from the same source as the BLOTW entries. Inexplicably I don’t have a copy of T B Maund’s (definitive) volume on the Birkenhead Bus, but it would be interesting to know if there is any comment there.
W Gash & Sons 1948 Daimler CVD6 Strachans but possible rebodied by Massey 1962
I have cobbled together this info from too many to mention web sites if you know more let me know. Also I can’t remember for the life in me where I was when I took the photo possible Nottingham as the bus behind is a Barton Transport fleet no 703.
The location is undoubtedly Nottingham Huntingdon Street bus station – long since disused.
It may be of interest that Huntingdon Street bus station was host to no less than ten different operators in the 1950s – Trent (about 12 routes or groups of routes), Barton (4), East Midland (3 joint with Trent), Midland General (3), Mansfield District (2), South Notts (2), Lincolnshire (1 joint with Trent), Skills (1 joint with Trent), W Gash (2) and Nottingham City Transport (1) – a mish-mash of AECs, Leylands, Daimlers, Bristols and the occasional Guy, in various shades of blue, green, red, purple and brown.
Stephen Ford
This is the bus I went to school on and it is DD3
JB
In addition the other bus companies were East Midland who operated services to Doncaster & Retford via Farnsfield Bilsthorpe Edwinstowe and Ollerton United Counties operated a London service via Northampton Black & White Coachways to Cheltenham Taylor Bros & Hall Bros services to Newcastle Royal Blue operated from Maidenhead on Saturdays Skills Scenicruisers services to Bridlington on Saturdays Midland Red to Ashby de la Zouch/Birmingham East Yorkshire to Scarborough on Saturdays Lincolnshire road car to Ingoldmells Mablethorpe and I think possibly Skegness Yorkshire Traction to Leeds via Sheffield, Barnsley and Wakefield… later as part of what was combined by United Counties/Yorkshire Traction to form the first Leeds – London service changing at Huntingdon street.
Huntingdon street bus station long before the national express routes we know today was a major hub/interchange link for all of the above operators there were a few others as I remember but at this moment in time cannot remember their details hoping this adds a little more info to your entry.
Mickey Summers (New York)
Hi Mickey, you are quite right about the other operators. I only listed the regular local and interurban bus routes, as opposed to longer distance coach services, though some of the local operators (Trent and Barton in particular) also ran coach services, mainly to the east coast resorts. By the early 1950s (the earliest I can remember) Midland Red’s X99 Birmingham service had been transferred to Mount Street bus station, where it shared platform 6 with selected Trent routes. Actually Mount Street only had 3 platforms, numbered 4 (Midland General/Notts & Derby), 5 (Barton) and 6. Not sure why there was no 1,2 or 3! I think the idea of Mount Street was to hive off all the routes that left the city in a north westerly direction via Canning Circus, so that they didn’t have to fight their way through increasing traffic around Huntingdon Street.
Stephen Ford
Well now, there’s another operator that I had forgotten at Huntingdon Street. North Western were equal partners with Trent on route X2 to Manchester, via Ilkeston, Ripley, Matlock, Buxton and Stockport. It was “limited stop” rather than a true express service, and also had a strict “no setting-down” restriction until after Ripley (to protect Midland General’s B2).
Stephen Ford
This area was a hive of activity in those days, across from the bus station were the Central Markets, opposite was the Palais-de-Danse, there was also a short cut for bus passengers wishing to get to Victoria Railway Station. Strange how the focal point of a city can be altered over the years, I suppose construction of the two shopping centres led to that. I was often taken on shopping trips to Nottingham by my parents and we usually concluded the shopping down the Huntingdon Street end, I always enjoyed a visit to Notts but the one thing I hated was the long trek back to Mount Street to get our (Midland General) bus home! Today, Huntingdon Street is quite a dead area, apart from passing traffic, and so too, for that matter is Mount Street!
Chris Barker
11/03/11 – 09:30
Is the saloon next to the Gash decker a Barton’s own built MK2 Veiwmaster?
Roger Broughton
11/03/11 – 16:05
Roger – in a word yes! And lovely vehicles they were to travel in too. Comfortable coach type seats, and orange Perspex panels in the roof which could make even a dismal wet November day seem sunny – until you alighted of course! I have spent many a happy half hour travelling from Long Eaton to Nottingham in one of these on routes 3/3C, 10 and 11 in the mid 1950s.
Stephen Ford
11/03/11 – 16:10
Re Mickey Summers comment above: I can think of two more operators not mentioned as yet, West Yorkshire Road Car Co (whose coaches were in daily use on the Yorkshire Services pool), and Ribble Motor Services who contributed to the X2/X60 connection to Blackpool – more often than not a through vehicle in the summer months with everything from all-Leyland Royal Tiger coaches to BET Federation 36 ft service buses in drab all-over red appearing in Huntingdon Street. Does anybody know why Nottingham corporation route 25 terminated there, or to put it another way why just the 25? Fond memories. The iconic tram-shed is still in place and currently being advertised as luxury apartments. A great shame – it would have made a superb bus museum for the area and with the vehicles known to be in preservation a passable good recreation of Huntingdon Street in its heyday could have been held on a regular basis. If I ever win the jackpot on the Lottery those flats are being ripped back out again!
Neville Mercer
12/03/11 – 07:05
In answer to Neville, the 25 was the last of three NCT routes that originally started/terminated at Huntingdon Street. It was a circular to Mapperly Westdale Lane – out via Carlton, in via Sherwood (25A in the opposite direction). In the 1930s it was virtually an out of town service, going to the limits of where housing development was just starting. The other two were to Hucknall via Basford and Bulwell (route 22 at the time) – later discontinued as Trent served that area; and route 19 to Lenton Abbey, near the University campus. Geoff Atkins’ photos show AEC Reliances in Huntingdon Street on routes 22 and 25, and a 1935 Regent/Northern Counties with its blind set to “19, Huntingdon St Bus Stn via Derby Road and Wollaton Street.”
Stephen Ford
29/08/11 – 16:16
Re operators of Daimler buses with Massey bodywork – Peter Gould lists in SHMD Fleet List four Daimler buses owned by SHMD with Massey bodywork. They are HMA 12 (Daimler CWG6) and HMA 155,156 and 157 (all CWA6’s). Info of any interest?
Peter Crossley
25/12/11 – 18:49
Just been reading through the site on Huntingdon Street bus station Nottingham. I was a conductor with Trent Motor Traction from 1968 to 1983 then driver from 1983 to 1991, I have conducted on the Manchester service X2 and the Great Yarmouth service, and local services, great remembering the old bus station
Stephen Morrell
26/12/11 – 10:49
Stephen, just reading your comment above made me think you may be able to help me with some research I am undertaking re. the end of crew operation around the UK. I don’t have a final date for Trent; you mention you were still a conductor in 1983 which I imagine must be close to the date when Trent became 100% o-p-o. Any idea when the final date may have been, please?
Dave Towers
02/01/12 – 12:57
In reply to Dave Towers, I passed my bus test 10/10/1983 and I was one of the last conductors to go driving at the Nottingham depot there could well have been some after me at the Derby depot. So I would think by end of October 1983 it would have been 100% o.m.o, hope this helps, (might be able to find out exactly still know one or two at Nottingham) who might be able to help me.
Stephen Morrell
08/02/12 – 15:37
Regarding the comments on Strachans, I have been trying to ascertain their history without much success. I do have a photograph of the interior of their works in West Acton in 1935 with a line of Austin Taxi’s all bodied by Strachans. I live in France and have discovered a 1935 Austin taxi with a body by Strachans which I am renovating. I am missing the small brass plaque which says “Body by Strachans” and their address, if anybody has such an item I would be delighted to purchase it.
Peter London
13/02/12 – 15:56
Strachans at Hamble did indeed start in London. The ‘history’ is not ‘straightforward’, and may well get put into a book in due course ! (A not particularly accurate article did appear in an ‘Annual’ some years ago). The origins of the firm were with W E Brown, who began as a coachbuilder in Shepherds Bush in the 1890s. He went into partnership with S A Hughes – and – as Brown & Hughes – they bodied many of the earliest motor buses (including the initial Milnes Daimlers at Eastbourne) – in fact they later claimed to build the first double deck motor bus ever made. In 1907 B & H were joined by J M Strachan, and the firm was renamed Brown, Hughes & Strachan – a company registered in December 1908. J M Strachan was also proprietor of Aberdonia Cars – also with a factory in Shepherds Bush (he came from near Aberdeen), and BH & S bodied these. They moved to new premises at the (then new) industrial estate of Park Royal in 1912, and in early WW1 work included ambulances. However, Messrs Brown and Strachan were removed as directors in April 1915, and in June that year there was a disastrous fire. Meanwhile, Messrs Brown and Strachan set up a new firm – trading from July 1915 from premises in Kensington where BH & S had been previously — the firm being a partnership under the title Strachan and Brown (ie not a ‘registered company’). They built – amongst other things – aircraft during WW1, and from 1920 or so got back to ‘what they knew best’ – ie motor vehicle bodies. Several patents were granted for special springing, opening windows, opening roof etc. They often built bodies for chassis builders who had quoted for ‘complete vehicles’, (AEC and W&G for example) as well as supplying bodies ‘direct’. S&B moved to a new, purpose built factory (designed by J M Strachan) in 1923 at Wales Farm Road, Acton. However, there was a ‘disagreement’ between Brown and Strachan, such that in November 1928 the Commercial Motor announced the partnership had been dissolved. (There were related court hearings). At this point, W E Brown became a director and principal of Duples (where 2 of his sons also held senior positions). It is at this point that Duple’s coachbody sales ‘accelerated’. The firm at Acton then became just ‘Stachans’. However, J M Strachan died in June 1929 – and the firm never quite had the same flair having lost both of its founders. From October 1929, the company became Strachans (Acton) Ltd. A further name change came in August 1934, when the name Strachans Successors Ltd is adopted – and the firm continues under this title until well after WW2. A holding company – Giltspur – then acquired the business, and they subsequently moved production to Hamble, Hampshire, on part of the airfield there, ‘A’ and ‘G’ Hangars were leased to Strachans by April 1960 (possibly earlier). Later this became part of a specialist vehicle building group called Glover Webb (who made armoured land rover type vehicles), but the airfield was sold in 1984 for housing, by which time Strachans as such had ceased to exist.
Peter Delaney
14/02/12 – 07:39
Further to Peter Delaneys helpful info, a web search reveals that a meeting took place on March 30th 1976 at which it was agreed to wind up Strachans Coachbuilders Limited and Strachans Engineering Limited. This ties up with the reported move of Glover Webb to Hamble around that time. Any suggestions for the last Strachans bus body to be built?
Nigel Turner
14/02/12 – 07:42
Thx Peter, for this concise history of a company with a complicated past! I’ve read titbits over the years and they’ve conflicted, unsurprisingly. Despite finishing up in Hamble, Strachans were not really supported by its neighbouring bus operators. Only Provincial gave them an order for nine single-deck Seddon/Strachans in 1968, which might well have been a unique combination.
Chris Hebbron
14/02/12 – 07:43
Thanks for that, Peter. Looks like another case of a great might have been (such as I have mentioned before – Metalcraft, Sentinel and Foden). In that period of “get what you can, when you can” in the immediate post war period, Sheffield’s only PS2 Tigers (most were PS1) had Strachans bodies. A long way to go for emergency provisions!
David Oldfield
14/02/12 – 11:23
I think Chris you have overlooked the 6 AEC Swifts Numbers 1-6 taken by Southampton Corporation in 1967/68.
Pat Jennings
14/02/12 – 16:34
Ah, Yes, Pat, I stand corrected on them!
Chris Hebbron
06/04/12 – 15:39
I was one of the last conductors at W Gash I was the only one in April 1986 until October 1986 when the rms came, conductors stayed until the last day of Gash existence
Anthony Townsend
16/11/12 – 07:38
Regarding Strachans bodies, I understand that some of those built in the 60s included faults that limited their life. Those purchased by Wolverhampton on Guy Arab V chassis in 1967, were scrapped after only 7 years and most of the chassis were sold to Hong Kong.
Tony Martin
20/05/13 – 16:46
With reference to Lincolnshire Road Car running from Huntingdon Street to the Lincs East Coast. This was Express service A and started from the Skills booking office on Alfreton Road (Peveril Terrace) and proceeded to Huntingdon Street. It then ran via Newark and Lincoln (same route as Trent) but branched off in Wragby to Mablethorpe via Louth. From Mablethorpe it travelled down the A52, through Sutton on Sea, and diverting off the main road calling at Anderby Creek and Chapel St. Leonards before continuing to Ingoldmells. The service terminated at Butlins. I have fond memories of making this journey with my parents regularly to Chapel St. Leonards, as we had a caravan there from 1949 onwards. Bristol L types were the mode of transport of my childhood, painted in the “coach” style of predominantly cream with Tilling green lining – a reverse of the stage carriage livery on these vehicles.
Brian Binns
01/05/18 – 06:05
A bit more miscellaneous info for Peter Delaney. I am not sure of the date but following a fairly lengthy strike, we were all brought into the office at 1000 on a Friday morning and told that the company was closing and we had to be out by 1200. Probably late 72 or early 73. A very sad time as some of the old hands had even built their toolboxes into the walls. They brought a few people back on a six week contract to clean up and sort out the drawings etc. ready for the take over. There were only a few of the Ford Transit chassis/cowls remaining as Fords had removed most of their stock before the strike started. I quickly lost contact with the drawing office staff although I did hear that Neil Moore who was the Chief Draftsman with Strachans did stay on with the new owners. In the latter days we were looking at building dedicated school buses similar to the North American style as they also used the truss panel construction methods. We also spent time working on the drawings for how to ship buses out in CKD and SKD for overseas assembly but the end came first.
Dick Henshall
15/02/21 – 06:18
X2 (Trent and North Western joint service to Manchester) ran direct to Ripley, via Eastwood, I think, not Ilkeston. The Barton service to Blackpool ran via Ilkeston.
John Bremner
15/02/21 – 15:16
Just been checking my 1953 Trent timetable, and the X2 definitely ran via Ilkeston, not Eastwood. (Actually it is mentioned in Neville Mercer’s excellent 3-part article on Huntingdon Street bus station on this site). It took only 21 minutes to Ilkeston, compared with the Midland General all stops B2 schedule of 27 minutes for the shorter run from Mount Street.The X2 was, of course, limited stop and only had 21 stops between Nottingham to Buxton. From Nottingham to Heanor they were Radford Boulevard, Wollaton (Doctor’s Corner), Trowell Church, Ilkeston Market Place, Ilkeston Rutland Arms, Shipley ‘Brick and Tile’.
Stephen Ford
16/02/21 – 05:56
It would make sense to run the limited stop service via Ilkeston rather than Eastwood. Although approx. half a mile longer, there were substantial sections of open countryside between Wollaton and Trowell and between Ilkeston and Heanor, whereas the route via Eastwood was even then essentially continuously built up, with probably very little derestricted road. A check on Google shows that even today, following the old routes, it’s about 5 minutes quicker via Ilkeston than via Eastwood. (You wouldn’t normally do it that way today, as the Kimberley/Eastwood bypass has eliminated much of the congested section of route.)
I notice that the last picking up point going north and first setting down point going south was Stockport but there’s no mention of any restrictions from the Nottingham end. Does anyone know if local passengers were carried on the section Ripley, Matlock, Bakewell and Buxton?
Chris Barker
18/02/21 – 14:44
The Summer 1970 Express Coach Guide (first ABC successor) shows fares between Ripley and all stops to its west. There are no local fares shown between Matlock and Buxton. It’s an indicator of circumstances but not 100% reliable and a check of the actual licence records would provide the best confirmation. Regarding the Bolton stop annotations these restrictions did not apply to the daily journeys – just the Friday and Sunday evening extras. Given North Western and Trent’s presence on the corridor, all operating rights would be hard fought for.
Mike Grant
18/02/21 – 14:45
I cannot be sure. In the aforementioned 1953 timetable the X2 was described as limited stop – not express. In those days limited stop seemed to mean that it would only call at specified stops. I do believe that Midland General would have been “protected” on the Nottingham – Ripley section, though the X2’s four journeys per day wouldn’t abstract a lot of traffic. MGO ran their own limited stop service taking 41 minutes Nottm – Ripley (route A4 – did they pinch that monika from the railway?!) The X2 took 43 minutes – but for the longer run from Huntingdon Street. My impression was that “beyond Ripley) was regarded as the first setting down point. The notes in the timetable do say that after Buxton the X2 would stop “at any official stopping place” through to Manchester. (We’re getting a long way from Gash’s CVD6 aren’t we!)
Stephen Ford
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
29/09/21 – 04:37
With regard to the X2 service, Trent timetables state that the first setting down point on journeys from Nottingham and the last picking up point on journeys to Nottingham is at Bull Bridge. This is about 3 miles beyond Ripley and so would give protection to MGO/NDT services A1/B1/B2/C6/E7 etc between these points.
