Tag: Metro-Cammell

Wakefields Motors – Leyland Titan PD3 – AFT 935 – 235


Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Wakefields Motors Ltd
Leyland Titan PD3/4
1958
Metro-Cammell ‘Orion’ H41/32R

This 1958 Metro-Cammell Orion bodied Leyland PD3/4 was one of 12 in the Tynemouth and Wakefields fleet. They were AFT 924/35 fleet numbers 224/35; the last two carried the Wakefields name. The Northern General Transport group had quite a number of these and although ‘livery apart’ they all looked much the same, the Percy Main vehicles had a much higher interior spec. 235 ‘seen here parked alongside one of the earlier Orion Guy Arabs’, is for some reason missing a front wheel trim, most unusual for the normally very high standards of the depot. I started at Percy Main in 1967 and by then these vehicles were nearly 9 years old, but by all accounts they had lost none of their original sparkle. They weren’t the most handsome half cab I’ve ever driven, my vote for that title would go to the 1956 Park Royal Guy Arab IV’s, the 1957 Willowbrook PD2/12’s with the same O.600 Leyland engine were livelier, but the heavier PD3 was, in my opinion a much better vehicle. But lets not kid ourselves they were not perfect, the brakes left a lot to be desired, by todays standards they would probably be considered underpowered, and they didn’t have power steering. However, they were well maintained and regular application of grease to the steering linkage meant that it was always light and positive, they were also very forgiving and treated with respect they were fun to drive. To a young lad of 21 the thing I loved about them was that wonderful raucous throaty sound they had, and once you got them wound up they could clip on a bit, conductors liked them as well because they stayed reasonably upright, so they never had the sensation that they were at times practically walking on the windows when you went round corners. All things considered, apart from an occasional reluctance to stop, they were a good honest reliable workhorse, and many drivers, myself included, preferred them to the Atlantean PDR1/1.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

02/11/12 – 07:32

Excellent. I worked in the North-East in the 1970s but, by then, Wakefield’s and several other subsidiaries of Northern General had disappeared. I think only Sunderland District and Gateshead were left.
Can you still shop at Binns?

Geoff Kerr

02/11/12 – 10:48

BINNS were part of the House Of Fraser group, and there is still a store in Gateshead. No doubt one of the “local” readers can tell us if it still has the same trading name, but the group’s branch in Skipton is still called RACKHAMS.

Pete Davies

02/11/12 – 15:22

The only proper MCW bodied NGT PD3 I ever saw was a late survivor in NBC “knicker pink” and white and it still looked good! My favourite Northern Group Titans were the Burlingham bodied ones of Sunderland poetry in motion.

Chris Hough

02/11/12 – 15:23

As Geoff says, by 1970 all vehicles based at Percy Main were ‘Tynemouth’ by 1975 that name along with all the other Northern General subsidiary names and their liveries had also disappeared to become Northern which by then was part of NBC.
On the BINNS subject, they had outlets at most of the larger towns and cities throughout the North and into Scotland, ‘including one in Edinburgh’ but as Pete points out they became part of ‘The House of Fraser’ group, and as far as I’m aware the BINNS name has also gone.

Ronnie Hoye

02/11/12 – 15:24

When i was a youngster I went to stay with my sister and her husband who lived in Darlington. The Shop At Binns was on nearly every bus of the day, I have just googled Binns and all I got was The House Of Fraser.

David J Henighan

02/11/12 – 15:26

Rackhams, Skipton: I bet that was once Brown, Muffs of Bradford, the K5G of the retail world. Alas! Rackhams were originally a Birmingham store, and the name was later transferred to Walsh’s in Sheffield.

Joe

09/11/12 – 13:05

I worked at Percy Main as a conductor in 1971 and by that time the early Atlanteans had really lost their sparkle; they were very sluggish and the steering could be very stiff. The PD3s still gave a good account of themselves, though, even though they were older. PD3s were the end result of the long evolution of the front-engine half-cab, while early Atlanteans had hydraulics and other new features that were worn out after 10 years.
I think that there were 6 PD3s at Percy Main in 1971 because the other 6 had been transferred to other parts of the Northern group in exchange for single-deckers used on service 15 when it became OPO in 1968. When other routes became OPO in 1971 and other single-deckers got drafted in, the vehicles that were transferred out were Atlanteans, some of them to scrap. The PD3s carried on and, while some went elsewhere in the group, other PD3s came in.
They were stable and good for a conductor. They also did have a good turn of speed. There were a few duplicate trips on the New Coast Road that were often a PD3 and they could get up an impressive speed even with a full load. Fuel consumption was high though.

P Robson

26/06/13 – 06:00

Were the reds of Tynemouth, Wakefield and Northern during 1950/60s officially different. I was a regular user of all three then I have always been convinced they were. Certainly I remember seeing Tynemouths standing next to Wakefields at Northumberland Quay many times and they WERE different, all three of them. Or is this case like LNER Doncaster and Darlington Apple Green, the same – but different!

Don T

26/06/13 – 11:50

All NGT group vehicles came out of the same Paint shop, Don, so it may be a case of one batch of paint being a slightly different shade to the next. Percy Main vehicles, Tynemouth and Wakefields, were painted at three yearly intervals, and red is of course notorious for fading, add to that three years of going through the wash every night and that may be the answer.

Ronnie Hoye

29/06/13 – 07:34

I’m delighted to see Wakefield’s Motors getting their due recognition, thanks to Ronnie. As easily the most ‘obscure’ of the Northern Group subsidiaries, they are often forgotten. Tyneside was scarcely any bigger in terms of total fleet strength but Wakefield’s fleet included coaches – some of which have recently been discussed on here – and so their service buses were much rarer.
As an avowed Orion aficionado, I think this photograph is quite magnificent and, to me, the epitome of what a ‘proper’ bus should look like. I know that Orions are not universally popular but I’m particularly interested in Mr Robson’s comments vindication of Tynemouth’s in view of his experience ‘on the back’.

Alan Hall

Ribble – Leyland Titan – RCK 920 – 1775

RCK 920

Ribble Motor Services
1962
Leyland Titan PD3/5
Metro-Cammell FH41/31F

In 1956 the UK maximum legal length for double deck buses was extended to 30 ft, and Leyland quickly responded with the PD3 chassis, essentially an elongated version of the PD2. Ribble ordered a fleet of 105 synchromesh gearbox PD3/4 machines distinguished by handsome Burlingham FH41/31F bodywork featuring a neatly designed full width front end. These entered service in 1958, but Ribble then tried its hand with the then very new and novel Leyland Atlantean design, taking 100 examples in 1959/60. All operators of the early Atlantean experienced a number of teething troubles, and Ribble, while continuing to favour the Atlantean for future orders, hedged its bets by partially returning to the more dependable PD3 for some of its 1961-63 deliveries. The bodywork was again FH41/31F, but this time of the aesthetically less appealing (to my eye, anyway) Orion style by Metro-Cammell . These later machines, which totalled 131 in number, were equipped with pneumocyclic gearboxes, making them type PD3/5. No.1775, RCK 920 was delivered in 1962 and operated in the Liverpool/Bootle and Carlisle localities until its withdrawal in 1981, when it was subsequently acquired for preservation. At some time in the years following, 1775’s pneumocyclic gearbox failed and was replaced by a synchromesh unit, but, when, in 2010, the vehicle passed into the hands of its current owners, the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust, the pneumocyclic box was repaired and refitted, bringing the bus back up to its original condition. In the picture above, 1775 is seen at the Wansford, Cambridgeshire, premises of the Nene Valley Railway on 8 July 2006 where I encountered it entirely unexpectedly.
A YouTube video of a ride on this bus may be found here:- at this link

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

22/08/17 – 06:32

Although rather plain I always thought these were quite attractive vehicles. The proportions seem to sit right and the livery suits the lines of the bodywork very well. Dignified is the way I would sum it up which is more than can be said for the horrors seen on most modern vehicles.

Philip Halstead

22/08/17 – 06:33

The change away to a synchro box was done when owned by Gerald Boden (who owned a B1+Class 40). From my memory he chose to do it as it would have been cheaper to repair the semi auto.

Roger Burdett

23/08/17 – 06:17

The almost only one-coloured livery hardly favours the body shape, Philip. I can see an improvement in Southdown livery. Oops, it must be the sort-of Queen Mary shape that reminded me of that!

Chris Hebbron

25/08/17 – 06:52

I wondered if Roger Cox or Roger Burdett can shed any light on the original gearboxes (or their flywheels) that were at first originally fitted to these Ribble PD3’s (and for that matter the fully fronted Bolton PD3’s).
When new, at idle there was a most musical tinny mechanical sound that soon disappeared once power was applied, I think they had a mechanical flywheel then. Bolton and later Ribble soon changed them to the fluid flywheel, which I understand gave a better service life – but no music! Hope someone in the ‘know’ might be able to offer enlightenment.

Mike Norris

25/08/17 – 09:36

I believe you are referring to the centrifugal clutch which I suspect was intended to be more efficient than a fluid flywheel. I only had very limited experience of it on a Bolton bus and simply remember an awful racket when the bus was in idle, not something I would describe as music at all.

David Beilby

25/08/17 – 09:37

Cannot shed any light except to speculate it was a body vibration due to harmonics.
Maybe someone from Ribble Group can enlighten if the switch back to a stick box has re-introduced the sound

Roger Burdett

25/08/17 – 09:38

I think that “jingling noise” was symptomatic of a centrifugal clutch, which was an attempt to provide a degree of automatic change, but without the drag and therefore fuel consumption penalty of a fluid flywheel.However I could be wrong.

James Freeman

26/08/17 – 07:13

I’ve noticed in several posts reference to ‘synchromesh’ gearboxes (as above) but am I right in thinking that they were only synchromesh on third and fourth gears? On every Southdown Leopard and Queen Mary I drove that was the format but may have differed elsewhere?

Nick Turner

26/08/17 – 07:14

This page seems to confirm that these Titans were initially fitted with centrifugal clutches:- www.flickr.com/photos/ Several operators tried out the centrifugal coupling to improve fuel consumption – the fluid flywheel could never attain 100% drive efficiency – but transmission snatch and maintenance problems meant that the fluid flywheel reigned supreme until the arrival on the psv scene of the multi stage torque converter gearbox.

Roger Cox

26/08/17 – 07:14

The Wigan PD3’s which were pneumo-cyclic also made this noise. Wigan went back to manual gearboxes for their later PD2’s so perhaps there was some dissatisfaction with the semi-auto transmission.

Philip Halstead

27/08/17 – 07:01

I seem to recall there was another stage of development when centrifugal shoes were included in the fluid flywheel so that it locked up at a suitable speed. I can’t recall technical details of the Ribble/MCW PD3 but know they seemed to perform very well up to the bitter end of TMO in Merseyside.
PS> The Captcha code for this post is PD3A!

Geoff Pullin

27/08/17 – 07:02

The PD2 was initially supplied with the GB63 four speed gearbox that had synchromesh on second, third and top, bottom gear being simply constant mesh. Unfortunately the second gear synchro set up gave some trouble in that engagement was often strongly baulked. Geoffrey Hilditch records examples of the resistance to engagement being so severe that gear levers were snapped off by the over enthusiastic pressures being applied by desperate drivers. Leyland then offered the GB83 box in which the second gear synchromesh was eliminated, and this continued to be available after the second gear synchro problems of the CB63 box were sorted out. All the PD2/PD3 buses I drove in Halifax had synchro on second gear.

Roger Cox

29/08/17 – 06:38

For those who like classic liveries like this, there’s news from Arriva. Their new universal bus livery is a simple Bradford blue, it seems: not clear to me how many extra bits or brandings can be added or where, but others may have more intimate knowledge. It does look if all the fussy skirts and linings may have gone, but what about the odd flash? After First, this is a relief!

Joe

22/07/18 – 06:20

To confirm what has been discussed about the PD3’s with the semi-auto g/box the Fleet nos starting with 1700 were all fitted with the Centrifugal Clutch and the fleet nos starting with 1800 were all fitted with the Fluid Flywheel.
The Centrifugal Clutch used to rattle when the engine was on tickover as the toggles and pins were worn, as when they were new they used to whine until the clutch engaged.

Norman Johnstone

Jersey Motor Transport – Leyland Titan – J 16522 – 21


Copyright Stephen Howarth

Jersey Motor Transport
1955
Leyland Titan PD2/22
Metro Cammell H31/26R

When Leyland Motors finished building bus bodies, the Jersey Motor Transport Company went to M.C.W. for their next double deck bodies. Two were bought in 1955, the other being J 16521, fleet number 20. They were the first Double Decker’s in the fleet with ‘Tin Fronts’ and Lightweight bodies. It was reported that the seats were hard, and the bodywork rattled. But the Drivers liked them because they were nippy vehicles.
They served in the fleet for 16 years, being withdrawn in 1971, when Bob Lewis, from Trimdon Motor Services bought the J.M.T., and brought in more saloons, and gradually replaced Double Decker’s and Conductors. He also repainted the fleet in to a Blue livery getting rid of the Green/Cream used for many years. This was so vehicles could be moved between Trimdon and St Helier without repaint. J 16522 No 21 is seen here at the Corbiere Terminus of Route 12.  Incidentally both vehicles 20 and 21 were actually scrapped on the island of Jersey. 
In this photograph the Driver has changed the blind to St Helier, but the Conductor has yet to change the platform blind from Corbiere.
The advert is for Jersey’s Famous Beer ‘MARY ANN’ which has been Jersey’s local brew for over the last 100 years. Most of JMT buses through out the years carried an advert for ‘MARY ANN’ in one form or another. The building in the back ground is the old Corbiere Terminus Station (it is now a private residence) of the Jersey Railways & Tramways Limited, this company taking over the assets of the Jersey Railway Company Limited on 1st February 1896. The extension from St Aubin’s (the original terminus) to Corbiere being opened in 1899. The whole railway shut, after a fire broke out in St Aubin’s Station in the early hours of 18th October 1936, when the station buildings were badly damaged and 16 of the best carriages were destroyed.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

14/02/12 – 07:51

This is another example of the much maligned Orion design looking quite attractive. This is helped by the layout of the livery, a style which suited the Orion very well. The ones at Brighton which had the same livery layout but red instead of green always looked attractive to me.
I always thought JMT was owned by the Jersey Government and had no idea it was bought by Trimdon Motor Services. That seems a strange commitment for a relatively small North East based independent. My former employers did some construction work in Jersey (nothing to do with transport) and found it a difficult place to operate. Shall we just say there were a lot of ‘vested interests’!

Philip Halstead

14/02/12 – 07:53

The Orion body was not the most attractive of designs and adding it to the tin front ‘Midland Red’ Leyland chassis did it no favours. Mix that with a 7’6″ wide chassis as in the case of JMT 21 and the result is positively undesirable, in my opinion. It looks narrow and top heavy, and that is from a side view!
Having said that the Orion body could be made to look quite reasonable if painted in a smart livery with lining out, for example, Halifax, Bradford or West Bromwich.
Equally, the BMMO style tin front Titan could be made to look quite attractive if it was fitted with a good looking body and smart livery, such as the Roe bodied Sheffield PD3’s shown in the previous posting. Perhaps a smart livery and body style draws the eye away from the plain BMMO style Leyland front. Who knows, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Eric

14/02/12 – 08:50

Know what you mean, Eric. I generally prefer exposed radiator PD3s – especially the Stockport’s. Sheffield’s tin fronts, however, do work.
As Charles Roe’s biggest fan, how is this for a variation on a theme (of livery improving an Orion)? Of all the many variations on offer, I found the worst looking one to be the front entrance PD3 – with several Doncaster operators, including the Corporation. Over the Pennines in Oldham (HQ of the Roe appreciation society?) their last traditional buses were front engined Roe/PD3s – which looked superb in their smart livery. So it can work both ways!

David Oldfield

14/02/12 – 11:27

Newcastle Transport had some very similar ‘tin front’ Orion PD2’s but Tyneside’s were the exposed radiator type, whilst the rest of the Northern groups Orions were Guy Arab’s They were all what could be best described as ‘cheap and chatty’ on the upper deck, with single skins and exposed frame’s, hence all the knocks bangs rattles and squeaks, but to be fair to the later PD3’s, although apart from being longer they looked very much the same from the outside, they were an entirely different beast inside, with double skins and sound proofing.

Ronnie Hoye

14/02/12 – 16:29

I should have mentioned in my original description that there is a Society devoted to the Channel Islands Bus scene.
This is the Channel Islands Bus Society.
Details can be obtained (please enclose a SAE), from
Dr Jim Young, 67 Boston Avenue, Southend on Sea, Essex, SS2 6JH.
Newsletters are published in Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter. Subscriptions are £14 per year for UK and CI residents or £17 for other EU countries.

Stephen Howarth

14/02/12 – 16:31

The demise of the Leyland bus-body building activities 1954 was a great loss to the bus industry. The alternatives such as the MCW Orion body must have been a great disappointment yet this style of body started a trend by other body builders such as Park Royal and Roe who attempted to copy and go lightweight.
However a good livery such as on the JMT Leyland does improve matters a little but inside comforts and appearances such as front dome of rough fibre-glass make me wonder how Weymann and MCCW could change from their previous classical and quality bodywork finishes.
My first view of a MCW Orion body was Yorkshire Woollen Leyland PD1 in overall red livery in Leeds in 1955, which was a shock to my senses.
Fortunately some operators such as Liverpool CT demanded a better specification and MCW gradually changed and improved their designs in the sixties.

Richard Fieldhouse

10/04/12 – 06:24

I wasn’t keen on the Leyland tin front either and another Orion/Tin front combination which looked awful was a batch of PD2s delivered to Bolton which had the full front design, also used by Blackpool.

David Pomfret

11/04/12 – 06:05

Regarding the comment by Mr Fieldhouse regarding the Yorkshire Woollen bus he saw just to set the record straight this was not a PD1 these buses were rebodied Leyland PS1s. Their Orion bodies were actually lighter than their original Brush single deck bodies. They were always called Cans or Salmon Cans by us enthusiasts. My wife used to conduct on them and she always said they were very cold in winter possibly because they had no internal lining panels to keep the weight down.

Philip Carlton

11/04/12 – 15:35

Edinburgh bought many MCW bodied PD2s with tin fronts for tram replacement. This lead a councillor to comment on them by calling them Monstrous masses of shivering tin the only modern thing about them is their approximation of rock and roll when moving! Edinburgh liked the Leyland tin front so much they retro fitted it to some exposed radiator PD2s and also some rebuilt Guys. They also continued to fit it to new deliveries until 1966 long after the St Helens version superceded the original. In the end they built their own fibre glass version in house.

Chris Hough

22/04/12 – 16:13

Nice to see a picture of JMT 21 taken when new at the Corbiere terminus Route 12. I have seen a pre-delivery shot of the sister J16521 but not 21 new.
Does the copyright owner have any other pictures of any other vehicle in Jersey at this time? I have a good collection of Jersey photos both pre and post war, but I am always looking to add to my collection.

John Luce

Wallasey Corporation – Leyland Titans – BHF 497/AHF 854 – 78/58

Wallasey Corporation - Leyland Titans - BHF 497/AHF 854 - 78/58

Wallasey Corporation  –  1952  – Leyland Titan PD2/12  – Weymann H30/26R                            

Wallasey Corporation – 1951 – Leyland Titan PD2/1 – Metro Cammell H30/26R

The 75 buses of the quaintly named Wallasey Corporation Motors were absorbed – along with those of the Corporations of Birkenhead and Liverpool – into the newly formed Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive on 1st December 1969.
On an enthusiasts’ visit the following August I photographed this pair of Leyland Titans, still wearing their original livery and fleet names. I think they make an interesting comparison.
On the left, 78 (BHF 497) is a PD2/12 with Weymann H30/26R body new in 1952. To the right, 58 (AHF 854) is a PD2/1 with Metro-Cammell H30/26R body new in 1951.
It is quite amazing to me that this pair – both bodied by companies associated through the MCW group – were built within a year or so of one another, the design of 58 being a throwback to the early 1930’s yet still being built in 1951. Admittedly that on 78 can possibly also partly trace its origins back to a Weymann design of around 1939, such as that used on Brighton Corporation’s famous FUF-registered Regents and others, but how much more modern it looks.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

28/02/14 – 07:55

What is equally amazing is that some eight years after 58 entered service, Wallasey had one of the first production Atlanteans – a massive jump in design in an always interesting fleet.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/02/14 – 07:57

What a super pair! I was taken on holiday to New Brighton in my early years and still remember the Wallasey fleet such as those pictured. Just a pity the PTE had removed the ornate ‘Wallasey Corporation Motors’ fleetname from the side. Only 75 buses but one of the first Operators to put an Atlantean in service (another contender being the even smaller fleet of James, Ammanford). I think it was in Meccano Magazine that a photo showed a temporary ‘gangplank’ being used at Seacombe ferry where the buses reversed up to the loading points thus enabling passengers to board fleet number 1 in safety.

Ian Wild

01/03/14 – 07:10

Massive route numbers, didn’t Birkenhead have large ones as well? Perhaps lots of short sighted passengers on the Wirral?

Ian Wild

01/03/14 – 13:39

West Bridgford did big route numbers too – as did Douglas IoM. You could tell from three stops away whether it was your bus approaching or not! Much better than scrolling digital displays that include bits of advertising and strange route descriptions instead of numbers.

Stephen Ford

08/10/14 – 06:58

I was employed on Wallasey buses and I was one of the first to drive an Atlantean bus in service, I think it was route 2 from Harrison Drive to Seacombe via Liscard

Trevor Hall

15/04/15 – 10:48

Growing up in Liverpool with its 1,200 corporation buses, the Wallasey fleet ‘over the water’ was always fascinatingly old fashioned in feel and looks, even featuring a clock on the platform giving the time of the next ferry. Always remember that when a ferry unloaded at Seacombe and the lined-up buses filled up, a Wallasey Corporation inspector would blow his whistle and every single bus would pull out, in convoy, bound for the posh Wallasey suburbs or New Brighton.

Mr Anon

02/09/15 – 07:09

I grew up in Wallasey in the fifties and remember the affection we had for our bus fleet. The shared routes such as 9, 10 and 11 with Birkenhead would always cause conflict with yellow and blue buses leapfrogging in rush hour to maximise custom. I recall the annual outings to Helsby when at least 10 Wallasey buses would take us urchins on a day out with a slap up tea and games, I would try to get an upstairs front seat and if possible on bus number 80 which was my adopted favourite.

Alan Johnstone

03/09/15 – 07:12

The interesting thing about Mr Anon’s description of the look and feel of Wallasey buses is that in 1958, of course, Wallasey Corporation Motors was the first operator in the country to put a new-fangled rear-engined double decker into service. But step aboard that bus, and its interior is just as “fascinatingly old-fashioned in feel and looks” as everything else was.

Peter Williamson

05/02/18 – 06:39

I grew up in Wallasey in the late 50’s, 60’s. We used to call the Atlanteans the ‘new buses’. Later in 1974 I trained as a bus driver with MPTE. We were called Instant Whips by the older drivers because we had never been conductors. I often drove some of the original Atlanteans which were still in service. Historic but not as nice to drive as the new ones which we called Jumbos. Later I drove for Crosville where they still had lots of back loaders and conductors. I then drove for Henry C Cox of New Brighton, one of the nicest men and best boss I ever had.

Dan Kelly

13/09/18 – 06:48

Dan, I grew up in Wallasey in the 60s and 70s, and remember well the period you mention. I was wondering though if you know what happened to the Cox’s Coaches business? We used them for trips to Blackpool and Lancaster, but the seem to have vanished without trace. I was asking around about then at the end of last year, but no one I spoke to could recall them.

J Lynch

26/02/19 – 07:18

My grandparents: Mr and Mrs Rupert Jones lived in Grosvenor Drive in the 1960s. Grandad drove the buses and my sister and I used to rollerskate all the way to Birkenhead along the prom to take him his sandwiches! We loved it when he drove the number 1 yellow double-decker bus, because we used to board that one to go to the “Guinea Gap” swimming baths. He used to bring home bus tickets, ticket machines and Wallasey Corporation Driver uniform caps and silver buttons for us to play with. Happy days

Marianne Baddeley

27/02/19 – 07:16

Has the Weymann been re-paneled below the lower deck windows?
All the ones with similar bodies that I’ve seen had an outward curve at the bottom above the under run guard rail

Ronnie Hoye

28/02/19 – 06:23

I think the Weymann flared skirt must have been an option. I have just checked Alan Oxley’s book on Midland General/Notts & Derby Traction. All the pictures of post-war Regents with Weymann body (of which they had quite a lot) were without the flare. Some of the photos are of early date, so unlikely to have been re-panelled. I assume the same was true of Mansfield District, in the same Balfour-Beatty Group.

Stephen Ford

28/02/19 – 06:24

Here’s another member of the batch with the same panels: www.sct61.org.uk/  Earlier Weymann bodies had had the outswept skirt panels, but by 1952 the practice was being phased out. Here’s one delivered further up the coast the same year: www.sct61.org.uk/

Peter Williamson

28/03/19 – 07:23

We too lived in that neck of the woods from the mid 60s onwards. The Wallasey bus colour was known as either “yellow” or “white” by various locals. Of the early Atlanteans, there were eventually 30, but I believe those were the last mainstream buses purchased until MPTE took over. They mainly held down the various routes out to Moreton, where you rarely saw one of the older vehicles, and some of the trunk runs between Seacombe and New Brighton. Everything else was the old half cabs.
The departure from Seacombe every 10-15 minutes, following each ferry arrival, was indeed something to watch. The bulk of the service routes started from there, with vehicles all lined up in echelon, when it looked like the last ferry passenger had come out (and not until) the inspector would blow a piercing whistle (audible all round the terminal), following which up to 10 Leyland engines would instantly roar into life together, and they were off, like a Le Mans start, close manoeuvring, gestures between crews, all pushing across Borough Road together and then fanning out to the different routes. There must have been one or two collisions there from time to time.
Regarding this longstanding Liverpool perception of “posh” Wallasey, goodness knows how that originated about a place which was principally dreary red brick terrace houses, and which had no logical centre.

Bill

29/03/19 – 06:19

You make it sound like Formula 1, Bill!

Chris Hebbron

04/03/20 – 06:39

In reply to J Lynch, what happened to Cox’s Coaches. Henry C Cox started his business in the early 1930’s. Along with Hardings it was one of the oldest coach firms on the Wirral. When I drove for him in the 1970’s, Mr Cox was probably in his own seventies but still driving coaches. As I said in my previous post he was a lovely man and a great boss. He had two sons Tim & David but neither were interested in the business. Mr Cox kept going until the early 1980’s when he retired. The garage in Cardigan Road was bought by a damp repairs company who later sold the land for building. All that remains today is Mr Cox’s house at the very end of the road on the left. He built this house along with the garage in the early 1970’s when he moved the business from Mason St to Cardigan Road. He retired to a bungalow in Pensby and died in 1989. A True Gent of the Road.

Dan Kelly

18/01/21 – 06:17

The Wallasey bus colour was known as Sea Green in Wallasey. The story goes that the first manager of the corporation buses was Mr Green and when they bought the first vehicles someone from the coachbuilders called to the council offices and said ‘What colour do you want the omnibuses painting in?’ The clerk didn’t know and replied ‘Oh see Green.’ And so they were painted Sea Green.

Bill

Moor-Dale – Leyland Titan PD2 – KGU 60

Moor-Dale - Leyland Titan PD2 - KGU 60

Moor-Dale Coaches
1949
Leyland Titan PD2
Metro Cammell H30/26R

Moor-Dale coaches were based in Longbenton to the North East of Newcastle. I don’t know if it was a takeover or a merger, but they became Moor-Dale Curtis. The fleet was moved to the much larger Curtis depot in Dudley, a former mining village in Northumberland which about seven miles to the north of Newcastle, they later bought out Rochester and Marshall who were based in Great Whittington Northumberland, all vehicles were painted in Moor-Dale livery, and the Curtis and R&M names were dropped and the company became the More-Dale Group. They are now part of a group which among others includes – Hylton Castle Coaches of Sunderland, Classic Coaches of Annfield Plain, Moor-Dale and Primrose. For may years they did. and to the best of my knowledge still do provide the Newcastle United team coach, by coach I mean the vehicle the players ride in, not the person who shows them how to pretend they’ve been hurt. Apart from a couple of executive vehicle ‘usually Volvo’ the coach fleet was usually made of Plaxton bodied Bedford’s, I don’t know if they were bought or leased, but about a third of the fleet changed every year, and they only seemed to have them for about three years at a time. The livery was very a very patriotic red white and blue, but the layout seemed to change with every new intake of vehicles. Double deck works and school contract vehicles were a different matter. I can remember an ex Southdown Leyland Titan ‘Park Royal I think’ the name was changed, but it was never repainted, but generally they were painted red, with blue centre band and blue mudguards. The two seen here are KGU 60, an H30/26R Metro Cammell bodied ex London Transport RTL from 1949; RTL610, and SFC 425; a former City of Oxford H30/26R Weymann bodied AEC Regent III, from 1952 numbered 425, they also had at leas one Ribble Leyland White Lady. One thing I could never understand, more or less on the doorstep, they had the Corporation fleets on Newcastle, South Shields and Sunderland, they also had the NGT group and United, but all their D/D’s seemed to come from well outside the area.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

12/06/14 – 08:37

Now owned by ARRIVA if part of the same group that owns the others.

Stephen Howarth

12/06/14 – 14:24

Curtis was purchased by Northumbria in the late 1980s along with Hunters of Seaton Delaval. For a time Curtis, Moor-Dale and Hunters buses were kept at the site at Dudley.
According to Wikipedia, Moor-Dale was sold back to its original directors at the time Northumbria was bought by British Bus (1994): British Bus eventually merged into Arriva. However the present registered office of Moor-Dale is the same as that of Arriva, so either the company name never in fact left the Northumbria – British Bus – Arriva consolidation chain or in the last 20 years was brought back in.

Paul Robson

12/06/14 – 14:58

I often used to travel to Newcastle from the Lakes in the 1970s to visit relatives and there were always plenty of Moor-Dale coaches heading in the opposite direction, all of them new as you mention Ronnie. There was also a steady stream of colourful coaches from other North-East operators during the season, especially Beeline (Goldcase Group) and T&WPTE (still branded as Armstrong-Galley) as well as Primrose (Bisset), H E Craiggs, and Priory. The only Moor-dale decker I recall was NFV 316, an ex Blackpool PD2/27, which I saw in Newcastle in 1977.

Mike Morton

13/06/14 – 11:34

Among other D/D’s bought by Moor-Dale that are relevant to this site were
DUF 154; 1950 Northern Counties Leyland TD4
EUF 176; Park Royal? Leyland ??? both Ex Southdown, and both possibly pre war rebodies. Neither were ever repainted in Moor-Dale livery.
LUC 355; another 1950 former LT MCW bodied RTL, this was RTL 980.
DCK 209; 1950 FCL27/22RD East Lancs bodied Leyland PD2/37. Former Ribble White Lady 1238, I think it was one of a pair.
WDC 76; 1959 H33/28R MCW Oron bodied Leyland PD2/37, new to Brighton Corporation.
They the above were all used as School and works contract vehicles, but after deregulation, and presumably after they had been bought out by Northumbria, Moor-Dale started stage carriage services, and vehiles were bought from many sources to run the services

Ronnie Hoye

Manchester Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – JND 619 – 3218

Manchester Corporation - Leyland Titan PD2 - JND 619 - 3218

Manchester Corporation
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/3
Metro-Cammell H32/26R

Seen in Piccadilly in August 1969 in the final months of Manchester Corporation ownership is No 3218, JND 619, one of a batch of Leyland PD2/3 buses purchased in 1951. Despite appearances, the bodywork is not by Crossley, being instead of the then standard Manchester design built by Metro-Cammell. Having given some eighteen years of service to Manchester, this bus survived to pass into the SELNEC era, though not, I suspect, for long.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

23/07/18 – 06:58

This would be on a rush hour full service length extra on which these and the similar looking PD1/3s, which were withdrawn between 1967 and 1968, were regular performers. According to the official SELNEC fleet allocation these PD2/3s were not taken into stock, although Eyre and Heaps in the Manchester Bus have all but 3224, withdrawn in April 1969, transferred to SELNEC. What I suspect happened was that the vehicles were deemed withdrawn at midnight, MCTD having ceased at 23.59 on October 31 1969, SELNEC coming into being at 00.01 on November 1 – such are the legal niceties!

Further to my previous comments, the SELNEC operational fleet allocation on formation has 300 PD2s from Manchester and 103 from Salford in the Central Area fleet listing. No Manchester and Salford PD2s were allocated to other divisions on formation. The SELNEC stock allocation i.e vehicle assets taken over in whatever state, lists 501 PD2s in the Central area. Taking Eyre and Heaps listings in the Manchester Bus and in the Salford lists available, the number of PD2s owned by those undertakings on October 31 1969 was 387 in Manchester and 103 in Salford giving a total of 490. The situation would seem to have been that 67 PD2s from the MCW and Leyland bodied JND registered batch in the sequence 3200-3299 were transferred as assets but immediately deleted from the available fleet along with 1 from the Northern Counties batch 3300-3329 and 19 from the Leyland bodied batch 3330-3369. There is photographic evidence of one or more of these batches pressed into SELNEC service. There is however a discrepancy of 11 PD2s between the 501 listed as assets and the total of 403 operational and 87 midnight withdrawals. If anyone can find the missing 11, given that as far as I can ascertain, the assets of the Central division did not include any transfers in from elsewhere at the time of formation on November 1 1969 I would be grateful.

Phil Blinkhorn

24/07/18 – 07:25

I regularly travelled to and from school on these buses between 1964 and 1967. I understand that the shallower windows on each side at the rear were to support the platform which was not supported underneath as on most buses. I have read that Metro Cammell came up with this design, although Crossley adopted it as standard for a while.

Don McKeown

25/07/18 – 06:11

Manchester certainly got its moneys worth out of these buses and although quite elderly they were used on many lengthy prestige routes until the end of MCTD. They regularly appeared on the 17, 24 and 90 in Rochdale by which time the joint operating partners, Rochdale and Oldham on the 24 and 90 were using more modern stock. I always found them rather drab buses to travel in with lots of dark woodwork and a fairly depressing moquete pattern for the seats. And of course like most buses of that time the upper deck reeked of stale tobacco smoke. I think the experience of 1950’s upper deck travel so Mum could have a fag made me a life-long non-smoker!

Philip Halstead

26/07/18 – 06:45

I was living on Barlow Moor Road in Didsbury in 1969 and 1970, and I remember 3218 as being the only one of these at Parrs Wood garage – very much the odd one out; always slightly surprised when it turned up, which it often did on rush hour extras.

Steve Owen

27/07/18 – 06:45

I have slides of 3237, 3246 and 3255 taken in Manchester on October 29 1970. They did not sport the green SELNEC Central S.
They were showing the following route numbers 64X, 63X, and 62X respectively.

Stephen Bloomfield

29/07/18 – 07:36

Stephen, the Central flash was Blue.
Green was for the Southern Division, Magenta was the Northern Division, and the Orange was for the Coaches, Parcels, and Central activities. Brown was later used for the Cheshire Division, the ex North Western Road Car Company.

Stephen Howarth

05/08/18 – 07:52

I was using rush-hour limited-stop services along the Hyde Road corridorout of Chorlton Street bus station for a time between 1970 and ’71 and several of these “32xx” PD2s turned up regularly on routes such as the “124” and “207/208/209”. The buses were run-down inside (torn-rexine) and were probably living outside the Hyde Road depot in the yard,awaiting the chop.

John Hardman

05/08/18 – 09:41

John, you are most likely correct in your assumption as to the source of the rush hour extras. SELNEC would have preferred not to have taken any vehicle assets over fifteen years old but the legislation demanded that the undertakings absorbed were absorbed lock, stock and barrel. The distinction that was made between the operational fleet and the total vehicle assets was quickly blurred due to the need to move vehicles around the divisions to introduce OMO and the need for extra vehicles caused by delays in deliveries. It would seem that the best runners from the withdrawn stock that still had valid certificates of fitness were temporarily relicensed to fill rush hour gaps. It was estimated that in 1965 one third of the Manchester fleet was retained for rush hour duties, generally vehicles over fifteen years old and apart from the 1953/1954 Daimlers which SELNEC took into the operational fleet, all those older vehicles in the Manchester fleet in 1969 were originally listed as non-operational. In passing it is worth commenting that the MCW PD2s outlived the newer Northern Counties bodied batch from 1953.

Phil Blinkhorn

07/08/18 – 06:06

I moved to Manchester to become a student in October 1970 and I am absolutely certain that MCTD 32xx series buses were in service then and at least for a few months afterwards. I do not recall seeing any 33xx series fleet numbers and I assumed that they had been withdrawn previously although at that stage of my university career I admit that I did not go far off the Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road axis.

Peter Cook

08/08/18 – 06:06

I became a Manchester student a year after Peter, and didn’t move far off the Oxford Road/Wilmslow Road axis either. My abiding memory is of the 1953/4 Daimlers on the 44/46. I do not remember the PD2s at all.

David Oldfield

09/08/18 – 07:21

Regarding Phil’s comment about a third of the Manchester fleet, I must admit I’ve always understood it to be the other way round – i.e. that Manchester’s peak problem was so severe that only one third of the fleet was out all day, with the majority being confined to rush-hour extras, rush-hour services, works services, works variants and works contracts. But I’ve believed that for so long now that I’ve no idea where I got it from.

Peter Williamson

10/08/18 – 07:12

Regarding Peter Williamson’s comments on the proportions of the Manchester fleet, the situation as he has it was certainly the case up until the late 1950s. From then things started to change. Rapidly increasing car ownership was the main factor but there were others. New vehicles delivered from 1957 had around 17% more seats than those they replaced and the eventual inclusion of reasonable numbers of Fleetlines and Atlanteans saw this figure rise to over a third more seats per bus. Diesel trains replacing steam on commuter lines and the electrification of lines to Crewe saw faster, cleaner and competitively cheap trains and the decimation of the Crossley fleet ahead of normal life expectancy were all factors which changed the the fleet use proportions. By 1969 the use of private cars had massively increased over that of 1960 and with far further large capacity vehicles in service, including the Mancunians, the need for a large rush hour fleet had diminished further.

Phil Blinkhorn

12/08/18 – 07:18

I’ve spent some time trying to reconcile the number of PD2s the SELNEC Central Division inherited and operated given the confusing numbers published in Eyre and Heaps The Manchester Bus, Manchester and Salford – One Hundred Years of Municipal Transport, Stewart Brown’s Greater Manchester Buses and my own sources from MCTD, Salford and SELNEC from 1968 through 1970. My own notes show that SELNEC intended to reduce its fleet of traditional front engined vehicles in short order and introduce OMO as soon as possible – an aspiration repeatedly delayed by late deliveries, the need to write down assets and union negotiations. It is a fact backed by written information from SELNEC, that SELNEC Central Division required an Operational Fleet for daytime running of 400 PD2s to cover services, maintenance, reserve vehicles for breakdowns and education departments’ needs. The Operational Fleet as far as PD2s were concerned was restricted to vehicles of less than 15 years old, in fact the oldest vehicles were the 1956 3400 series PND registered ex Manchester PD2s. Manchester contributed 300 PD2s, Salford 103. No vehicles to the best of my knowledge were imported to Central from other divisions. In addition to the Operational Fleet it appears Central had a fleet of licenced, driver training and withdrawn PD2s, all transferred from MCTD. The Manchester Bus in its vehicle listings at the back of the book infers the PD2s older than 15 years old that were transferred to SELNEC were fully licenced vehicles. Manchester and Salford a Century of Municipal Transport breaks down the transfer into driving school and withdrawn vehicles, as can be found on page 301 of The Manchester Bus, leading to the conclusion that the withdrawn vehicles were delicenced at midnight on 31 October/1 November 1969. However, the Eyre and Heaps publications disagree with each other in terms of numbers and because Manchester and Salford a Century of Municipal Transport was published much later than the last edition of The Manchester Bus, I have taken the latter’s figures. Central still required a reasonable number of rush hour extras and the older PD2s that were licenced, were thus employed. Most were withdrawn during 1970, the last of the pre 1956 PD2s in early 1971. The next discrepancy is that Greater Manchester Buses states that 501 PD2s were inherited in total and does not break down the numbers.
MCW Manchester Standard bodied PD2s 3200-3223 and 3225-3264 were transferred as licenced – total 64.
Leyland bodied PD2s 3287/94/99 transferred as licenced – total 3
3266/71/75/78/88/90 transferred as driving school – total 6
3265/67/69/70/72/77-79/82/89/92-95/97 transferred as withdrawn assets – total 15
Northern Counties bodied PD2s 3323 transferred as licenced – total 1
3324/25 transferred as driving school – total 2
Leyland bodied PD2s 3331/32/34/37/39/40/42/45-47/50-52/54/56-60/64 transferred as licenced – total 20
The overall PD2 assets transferred, if the later figures compared to the previous figures I had are to be believed number 514, now 13 more than noted in Greater Manchester Buses. Anyone else want to have a shot at sorting this?

Phil Blinkhorn

13/08/18 – 05:57

I’m surprised to read that there was a requirement specifically for 400 PD2s. What about the contemporary Daimler CVG6s (and CCG6s? Surely there would be some overlap between these two types?

Don McKeown

14/08/18 – 06:00

Unlike the situation with the PD2s, there was no cut off for Daimlers older than 15 years as the total of front engined Daimlers required for the Operational Fleet was 368 vehicles and to achieve this 48 CVG6s from Salford dating from between 1950 and 1952, 67 CVG6s from Manchester dating from 1950-1951 and all 110 of the 4400 batch of CVG6s and CVG5s from 1953 to 1955 were taken into all day service, though almost all of the 1950-1952 CVG6s from both city’s fleets had gone by the end of 1970, penny numbers of the Salford examples provided rush hour extras in early 1971. Again there are discrepancies in the published information. Greater Manchester Buses has it that 368 CVGs in total were taken by the Central Division but adding the requirement of 368 vehicles to the withdrawn and driving school assets taken over, the total is 407. the breakdown is as follows:-
Salford CVG6 415/16/18/25/28/29/33/39/57/61/63/65/70/73/78/83/84/85/88/98/506/07/11/21/22/24/25/27-29/31/33/35-41/43-45/47/48/52-54/60 Total 48 to Operational Fleet.
419/22/58/64/66/67/69/77/502/08-10/12/13/15/26/49/50 Total 18 taken over as withdrawn
Manchester CVG6/CVG5 4111/18/22-37/39-48/50-74/76-89/4400-4509 Total 177 to Operational Fleet
4101 Total 1 to driving school
4106-4108/4112-4116/19/21 Total 20 to driving school.
Post 1955 Daimlers CVG5 and CVG6s taken over were:
ex Salford 111-146/189-190 Total 38
ex Manchester 4510-4654 Total 105
It would seem the Greater Manchester Bus, unlike with the PD2s, only listed the number of CVGs in the Operational Fleet

Phil Blinkhorn

Yorkshire Traction – Leyland Tiger Cub – SHE 167 – 1179

SHE 167

Yorkshire Traction Company Ltd
1960
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/1
Metro-Cammell B45F

This Yorkshire Traction Tiger Cub, 1179 (SHE 167) is seen in All Saints” Square, Rotherham at the loading barrier for service 27 to Barnsley via Hoyland, joint with Rotherham Corporation, in July 1962.  The bus is in “Tracky’s” reversed livery of predominantly cream with red trim, reserved for coaches and service buses that could also serve as duplicates on summer outings to the seaside.  Having said that, Rotherham was just about as far away from the seaside as you could possibly get, certainly by Yorkshire Traction!
In the background is the impressive building housing Arthur Davy”s shop and café; a table next to a second floor window in this establishment was the perfect place from which to watch the steady comings and goings of the buses and trolleybuses in the Square below.
The other four buses, parts of which are captured in the view, are all Rotherham Corporation Bristol Ks, on various town journeys. Note the “Power” petrol/diesel sticker in the rear window of 178 (EET 578), which was obviously the fuel used by the local corporation; Doncaster”s buses were often seen to carry these as well.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Careless

23/09/19 – 07:13

Rotherham Corporation, just another municipal undertaking which isn’t mentioned much nowadays but it had a fascinating fleet and it covered a wide area. It’s buses could be seen in Barnsley, Doncaster, Chesterfield and Sheffield. It probably suffered from being overshadowed by some of it’s near neighbours!

Chris Barker

24/09/19 – 04:19

Fascinating is an understatement. Mid entrance single deck trolleybuses – many later given new double-deck bodies. A passion for Bristols – maintained until the early ’50s, after the BTC embargo on sales outside the nationalised sector. Modern Bristol Ls sent back to East Lancs (and associated companies) to have double-deck bodies fitted – effectively making them Ks. When that source dried up, Rotherham actively chose to buy Crossleys (up to about ’52/’53?) – only for that supply to dry up. Then a stable run of Daimler CVG6s leavened with AEC Bridgemasters and Renowns for low height requirements and finally, before the Fleetline took over, three AEC Regent V 3D2RA – very rare beasts with the 11.3 litre engine. A fascinating fleet indeed.

David Oldfield

25/09/19 – 05:45

Now you’ve whetted my appetite for more Rotherham photos, David!

Chris Hebbron

25/09/19 – 05:46

Some time ago I sent this photograph to a friend Laurie Johnson of Blackpool, who was working as a Rotherham Corporation trolleybus driver when this photo was taken. All these years later, he was still able to identify three of the RCT personnel; the driver with his back to the Tiger Cub was Alf Beeley, and the two inspectors (with hats) were Arthur Heald (left) and Jack Cox (right). Interesting to think that in today’s world, the group of them would probably either be texting or scrolling on I-phones instead of talking to each other , or else drinking coffee from throw-away cups!!

Dave Careless

25/09/19 – 06:59

The 27 was the only route into Barnsley run by a corporation undertaking. Sheffield was the JOC, not the corporation. Some of Rotherham’s East Lancs bodies were by Yorkshire Equipment – who built yachts and school desks! They were renamed East Lancs (Bridlington),

David Oldfield

27/09/19 – 06:21

Effingham Street 27_09

David mentioned how Rotherham Corporation had worked their way through deliveries of Bristols, Crossleys and Daimlers in the late 40s/50s and into the 60s. This picture rather encapsulates that, with Crossley 185 (EET 885) of the first batch of twelve, with both a Bristol K and a Daimler CVG6 at other stands further down the street. And gliding past, 38 (FET 340), originally number 80, one of the twenty rebodied Daimler trolleys that had shed its original 38-seat single deck East Lancs body for a 70-seat Roe structure in 1956.

Dave Careless

28/09/19 – 05:59

Well done for your photo which does indeed encapsulate my comments. I hail from the leafy southwest of Sheffield but hold Rotherham in great affection. Not only have I relatives in Rotherham but I was, for a short time, organist at All Saints’ (which gives its name to the Square) and, until it closed in July, gave regular recitals at Talbot Lane Methodist Church – just up the hill, opposite the Town Hall.

David Oldfield

28/09/19 – 06:00

Why did Rotherham convert all/some of its single-deck trolleybuses to double-deckers, Dave, an unusual thing to do, let alone single-deck trolleys being rare in themselves?

Chris Hebbron

29/09/19 – 07:01

Chris, by the mid-fifties the small capacity single-deckers were uneconomical to operate and the trolleybus side of things was losing money. With no reserve fund available for wholesale conversion to buses, the new manager, I.O. Fisher, persuaded the Transport Committee in 1955 that double-deck operation would right the ship, which it did. Trolleybuses ran in Rotherham for another ten years before finally being abandoned.
For the record, seventeen of the remaining twenty-four single-deckers eventually made their way to Spain, where they operated successfully for several years. One apparently still survives, preserved in a semi-restored state.

Dave Careless

06/10/19 – 08:04

Not only did Rotherham operate an eclectic fleet of trolley and motor buses the also operated some unique single ended trams on the service to Templeborough on the Sheffield Rotherham boundary the also in pre war years ran through to Sheffield.

Chris Hough

06/10/19 – 08:04

One noticeable aspect in these two pictures taken the same day in 1962 in Rotherham town centre is that the Bristol buses seen in the photograph of the “Tracky” Tiger Cub in All Saints’ Square have the cream paint extended down to below the line of the bottom of the windows on both decks, whereas the Crossley, and the Bristol/East Lancs bus behind it in the view in Effingham Street have been repainted, and the cream paint no longer extends down past the beading below the windows. In the original scheme, a thin black line was added between the blue and the cream, a nice touch, but in the later variation, the lining out was eliminated and the livery was simplified. Cutting costs was the order of the day, and the era of spray painting had begun!

Dave Careless

Tynemouth and District – Leyland Atlantean – CFT 640 – 240


Copyright Ronnie Hoye

Tynemouth and District Transport Co Ltd
1960
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Metro Cammell H44/34F

Not very good photo of one of the first Leyland Atlantean PDR 1’s to be delivered to Percy Main depot, they were MCW bodied, and if I’m correct, they were the first in the Northern group but I don’t think they had a very long life as they were outlived by both the previous PD2’s and 3’s. If memory serves, they were CFT 636 to 43 fleet numbers 236 to 243, 236 carried the Wakefields name but was identical in all other respects. The vehicle is standing in what used to be the layover area for Newcastle Haymarket Bus Station ‘an area much changed now’ and would have been on either the number 5 to Whitley Bay St Mary’s Island, or the 11 to Tynemouth Front Street. I suspect the photo was taken in the afternoon as it’s standing next to what looks like an Alexander bodied Eastern SMT, together with United they ran a joint service to Edinburgh, morning departures from Newcastle were United vehicles and afternoons were SMT, vice versa from Edinburgh.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

16/04/12 – 07:41

Box-like they may be, but in my mind, a classic of ‘early’ modern bus design. I remember well the first appearance of the PDR1/1 MCW in Sheffield in 1959. The first batch numbered 881-899 lasted until 1976-8, exceptional lifetimes of 17 to 19 years in such a hilly environment. Strangely, the 1960 batch 915-932 only lasted between 12 and 14 years for reasons unknown to me. I wonder why the Tynemouth batch should be short-lived? Memories though of drivers over-revving etc in view of not being able to hear the tone of the rear engines after so many years of sitting alongside the powerplant.

John Darwent

16/04/12 – 07:42

There seems to have been a gentlemens’ agreement that when Leyland ceased building bodies in 1954, MCCW (Metro-Cammell) would get the work. This continued with the bulk of early Atlantean orders going there – the only exceptions being Weymann getting the semi-lowbridge and a token number of Alexanders and then the Roes. Quite a selection of uninspired designs.
Not surprising the PD2s and PD3s outlasted them, they were better buses. Not until the 1972 introduction of the AN68 did the Atlantean reach its potential and become rather a fine bus – quite the best first generation rear engined model.

David Oldfield

16/04/12 – 11:34

John, you’ve forgotten 363 – 368 which were numerically earlier, but probably contemporaneous with 881 – 899. There are myriad stories of the operators who worked hard to make early Atlanteans work – Maidstone & District and Ribble to name but two. Sheffield invested heavily in Atlanteans and never reverted to PD2/PD3 as others did – even though the latter were available for another ten years and OMO wasn’t legal on them for another seven. The difficult operating conditions helped to ensure standards were high in Sheffield and why the general public probably never noticed any problems that there were.

David Oldfield

16/04/12 – 14:39

I believe that early Atlanteans were retro fitted with rev counters so the drivers would know what the screaming from the back seat was…. they appeared on their left.

Joe

16/04/12 – 16:51

Never seen that Joe, but have seen Tachos fitted there (for private hire or on preserved vehicles). Are you sure that was the reason for the screaming on the back seats!!!???

David Oldfield

17/04/12 – 07:06

I well remember in the 60’s and 70’s when the Commercial Motor Show was held at Earls Court, Bus and Coach the trade magazine on a number of occasions ran articles featuring Alan Townsin (the well known technical writer and one time Buses editor) and another trade insider who passed considered and sometimes irreverent opinions on the latest offerings from at that time mainly British manufacturers.
When the early rear engined deckers appeared they made the comment one year that a box is an honest shape why try to hide it something that modern day designers of bodywork and colour schemes could well take on board.

Diesel Dave

17/04/12 – 11:42

Seeing this broadside view of an MCW Atlantean has made me reassess their style. At the time of their introduction, their box-like shape came as a shock. Although the front elevation of these MCW’s were indeed plain and uninspiring (like, to my mind, most of the Orion breed), the side elevation shows subtle and not unpleasant proportions. However, even a plain canvas can be transformed by the application of colour, eg. Ribble’s mainly red MCW’s looked drab, whereas Sheffield’s blue and cream examples looked smart. Subtle changes to the front windows and/or domes could alter their appearance totally. Glasgow, Liverpool, Bolton and Nottingham had good examples, creating their own house-styles from the basic box shape.

Paul Haywood

18/04/12 – 11:35

Early Atlanteans, as John and David point out, had their fair share of mechanical problems. It was such a revolutionary concept that was, perhaps, inevitable, The centrifugal clutches on the PDR1/1 made pulling away abrupt and jerky, (Maidstone & District converted all of its Atlanteans, originally introduced to replace trolley buses in Hastings). Many other components seemed to have shorter lives and maintenance costs were high, as was off-road time. Additionally, they were thirsty.
They did have excellent performance, however; if you were running late, an Atlantean was the vehicle that gave you the best chance of making up time, as another contributor, (in a PMT posting?), has observed.
I’m afraid I don’t buy the idea that drivers couldn’t hear or interpret the engine note from the back. You could tell very well. Over-revving, in my experience, was almost always due to drivers simply knowing that they could get away with it, especially when they were in a hurry. Very expensive if overdone!
The cost of their early Atlanteans was the main reason why M&D changed to Fleetlines: not as quick, but quieter, more reliable and preferred by passengers. (Rear upper deck seats on the semi-lowbridge Weymann Atlanteans were popular only with school boys). Attractiveness of appearance is a matter of taste, of course. Paul clearly doesn’t like the Orion, (although I thought it looked well on M&D’s Arab IVs), and I agree with him that an Atlantean in Ribble’s plain livery could look drab. M&D’s ‘moustache’ helped break up the frontal boxiness, and the overall livery was attractive, I think. With age, fading paintwork, and the small chips and scrapes, etc., to which they were prone, rear-engined vehicles might look more tired than equivalent front-engined buses; that was just par for the course.

Roy Burke

You can hear an Atlantean again at this link

Manchester Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – UNB 629 – 3629

Manchester Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - UNB 629 - 3629

Manchester Corporation
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
1959
Metro-Cammell H44/33F

I feel prompted to make a first contribution to your fascinating forum after stumbling across it whilst looking for information concerning the jointly operated Stockport/Manchester Corporations’ Service 16 Chorlton – Stepping Hill.
I was born in Chorlton, attended the grammar school there and recall the day my mother took me for a trip to Stockport on the newly introduced Service 16 on what, to me, was an unusual and interesting single decker with a central exit/entrance. Manchester had no such curiosities (the Royal Tiger ‘Crush Loaders’ with their central doors were still years away and the single deck Leyland (TS5?) used on Service 22 Levenshulme – Eccles was a back loader of sorts.
Little did I know then that I should have the thrill of driving a Royal Tiger on Service 22 myself some 12 or 13 years hence!
All this underlines my love of anything relating to Manchester buses from the period 1958 to 1989 when I finally put my pen away and began drawing my pension. Having worked alongside John Hodkinson in Devonshire Street’s Traffic Office, I was delighted to see his contribution on the piece about jointly operated Service 95/96. In fact it was this that prompted to make contact.
Above is the shiny new Atlantean 3629 at Parker Street on it’s maiden outing, it had spent many weeks in Birchfields Road Garage with the rest of the delivery whilst Union issues were resolved. I remember seeing them there, looking so forlorn, becoming increasingly covered in dust as the weeks dragged by. They had to be put through the wash before going on the road!

Photograph and Copy contributed by David Cooper

10/07/14 – 07:12

David, your piece has brought back many memories of the period when the Evening News had regular articles on the dispute (allegedly sought by management by detailing the vehicles for Northenden depot routes where strong union opposition was expected) and the paper dubbed the vehicles Red Dragons -heaven knows why.
Whilst the majority may have been gathering dust in Birchfields Rd, there were forays driven by management and inspectors. A number of runs were done down Wilmslow Rd during rush hour mornings for some reason, to the bemusement of many a prospective passenger, and one particular day three of the buses were parked at the side of Northenden depot on the public road.
Once the unions and management found agreement the buses entered service on the Wythenshawe routes, then the 50 to Brooklands before moving to Parrs Wood where lower mid panels were often grazed at the tight left turn at the bottom of the ramp!
If I can help with info about the 16 please ask.

Phil Blinkhorn

10/07/14 – 09:55

David I worked with John 1973 – 1975 at Princess Road Depot. Princess Road Depot like so many of the old Manchester Corporation/City Transport depots now gone.

Stephen Howarth

10/07/14 – 11:31

It’s a small world. I too worked with John Hodkinson briefly whilst a Schedules Clerk at Frederick Road, Salford in 1972/73. There were five of us in the Schedules Office – David Broadbent in charge, John, Peter Caunt, George Boswell and myself. I was the lowly junior, the only ‘foreigner’, who commuted every day across from ‘the dark side’ of the moors in Halifax. Incredibly all five of us were enthusiasts, with yet another – the late Keith Healey – working downstairs, it was a wonderful atmosphere to work in – sometimes it seemed more like a hobby than a job. I then took up the position of Traffic Clerk with the Corporation in my home town. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time, but it was the complete opposite of what I had experienced at SELNEC and boy did I quickly come to regret it!

John Stringer

10/07/14 – 14:05

I’ve done that more than once, John, with both musical and teaching posts. When I’ve arrived at the new job, it’s been a poison chalice. “Beware of what you wish for …..”

David Oldfield

11/07/14 – 06:55

John and I have exchanged notes of our experiences in the Halifax Traffic Office. In 1964 I travelled 200 miles to take up that job, but the atmosphere was such that I quit within two years. That was 10 years or so before John gave it a go, so it shows how deep seated was the malaise in the place. The Halifax GM might have been a ‘character’, but the tunnel vision at senior subordinate levels was utterly dispiriting.

Roger Cox

11/07/14 – 06:55

There were also a couple of times when I went out of the frying pan etc………………..also!

Chris Hebbron

11/07/14 – 06:56

Phil, such intimate knowledge of the entrance to Parrs Wood Depot via the ramp suggests to me that you might have had personal experience. You have certainly roused my curiosity, or am I barking up the wrong tree?
The early Fleetlines and Atlanteans were, in my view, nowhere near as enjoyable to drive as a back loader.
Most disturbing factor was the relative absence of sound from the engine. It all seemed and of course was, so remote from the ‘sharp end’. And then there was that awful ‘yaw’ (for want of a better word) that resulted from traversing a series of gullies with the nearside wheels. So much easier to control it when driving a conventional bus.
I never got to drive a GM ‘Standard’. Perhaps they had had all the initial quirks ironed out?
Those names from the Frederick Road Schedules Office certainly took me back, John. I worked with almost all those guys at some stage or other, though left Devonshire Street in 1972, returning in 1974 after a sojourn in the Hotel business. John H. could always be relied upon to provide the answers whenever we Mancunians needed to know something with a Salford bias. And I seem to remember he had an affinity with a certain Devon-based coaching operation!!
I could reminisce all night but I can almost hear the yawns.

TWA 520

To close, here is a shot taken at the back of Hyde Road Works of 3520 awaiting disposal. She never looked right to me in Selnec livery but was a fascinating bus to drive – usually on Service 1 – Gatley.

David Cooper

11/07/14 – 11:31

David, my knowledge of the ramp at Parrs Wood comes from regular observation over the period from 1958 to 1965 when I would disembark from what was originally the #1 outside the depot to walk across Kingsway to take the #9,#16 or #80 to home on the way back from school. I also had irregular access to the depot through an friend’s neighbour who was an inspector.

3520 looks forlorn in your photo. It looked at its best when on the #1 in original livery, immaculate as Parrs Wood always turned out its star performers, and sounding more like an RT than a PD2.
A few more observations about this batch of Atlanteans. They were delivered with thin, low back seats which were non standard. The rear wheel discs, standard on new deliveries at the time, were absent – probably to the relief of the fitters. Was Albert Neal compensating for the extra weight of the longer bus and higher passenger capacity in his continual fight to keep costs down? Whatever the reason, the next foray into rear engined buses, Fleetlines delivered in 1962, had standard seats and rear wheel discs. The Atlanteans were re-seated with standard seats from withdrawn Burlingham trolleybuses around 1966.
Some drivers complained about the intrusion of both conductors and passengers into their workspace. Another driver complaint was lack of nearside visibility. There were signs instructing passengers not to stand on the platform area, something many did on back loaders after leaving their seat on approach to their stop, but the habit died hard. A more permanent annoyance for the drivers was the door construction with two part windows in each folding leaf, giving a restricted view to the left – and the doors would not open when in gear. The Fleetlines had full length glass in each leaf.
Schoolboys quickly learned where the emergency engine stop was. Located above the bustle on the nearside, it was in reach and many a stop near schools became prolonged until authority in the shape of inspectors and head teachers jointly overcame the problem.
Manchester took a long time to be convinced about the rear engine layout. Combined with the City of Manchester Police’s antipathy to 30ft buses in the city centre, it was nothing short of a revolution when the Mancunian appeared, just ten short years after 3629 and its sisters.

Phil Blinkhorn

13/07/14 – 06:54

Wow, may I join the reunion party please? I also worked at Devonshire Street, with David Cooper, David Broadbent and George Boswell among others. However, I was at the other end of the office, beyond Fred Thomas’s goldfish bowl, wherein he sat smoking his pipe and giggling to himself about the latest traffic absurdity. After three years on the lowest grade I was told that there was no prospect of promotion in the foreseeable future (which I can’t understand now, because we all knew that SELNEC was coming, and that changed everything). Basically it was dead men’s shoes and no-one was thinking of dying, so if you wanted to get on you had to move around. So I moved to Newport, which proved to be my poisoned chalice, and after five months I left the transport industry for good.
The photo of a brand new Atlantean on the 101 stand reinforces a memory I’ll never forget. The 13-year-old me was so gobsmacked by these things that I just stood there while the entire 101 allocation came and went and the first one came back again. I suppose I could have got on one, but I had no idea where Greenbrow Road was.

David, you may like to look at www.sct61.org.uk/index/operator/mn

Peter Williamson

13/07/14 – 09:26

Hi All! Maybe this page should be titled “Old Boys Club”!
Comments have referred to the ramp into Parrs Wood. When the guard-walking-in-front-of-the-bus type smog used to come down, the garage staff used to keep one bay clear inside the depot so the cars that had faithfully followed the bus to find their way home, found themselves inside the depot instead and needed to get out!

John Hodkinson

13/07/14 – 18:22

Peter, that SCT.61 site was new to me (I don’t get out much these days!) and I found it totally absorbing – rather like ‘The Manchester Bus’ but with the superfluous bits left out. Many thanks.

David Cooper

14/07/14 – 07:46

Here’s a link to how 3520 looks nowadays – much happier but evidently suffering from delusions of Hyde Roadness. www.flickr.com/photos/

Peter Williamson

14/07/14 – 09:53

Apart from the blinds, that could be 3520 on any day of its first couple of years in service.

Phil Blinkhorn

14/07/14 – 17:25

Like John I had a “couldn’t believe my eyes” moment when I first saw an Atlantean. It was an exciting day in 1960. I had just passed my “eleven plus” and as a reward my mum bought me my first “Combined volume” loco spotting book. We made the purchase in the city centre when changing buses en route to visit relatives. We just missed the #101, which was one of the usual 44xx Daimlers so we stood waiting for the next one, which turned out to be my first sighting of an Atlantean. On seeing the flat front, my first thought was “How did a trolleybus get away from the wires?” but then I noticed the number – 3627 – so it was obviously a Leyland. And we were going to ride on it, two bits of excitement in one day! I couldn’t wait for our return journey that evening, but to my great disappointment it was just another CVG6. A few weeks later we made another visit, riding on 3630 and 3628, but after that they disappeared from the #101.
In the autumn of 1963 I noticed an occasional Atlantean running through Middleton, my home town, with “special” on the blinds. These were driver training runs before the batch was transferred to Queens Road Garage, at first on the #163 but soon moving to the #121. I became a regular traveller on the #121 in the school holidays, just for the pleasure of riding on these buses. I always went for the inward facing front seat, which offered not only good forward vision but also a chance to watch the driver.
In later life, some of the batch had minor differences. 3621 had “LEYLAND” spelt across the rear bonnet in separate letters (I believe this one also had an O.680 engine at one point), 3626 had a much newer steering wheel with a slightly different design, and our friend 3629 was only a 77 seater while all the others seated 78, the difference being the inward facing front seat which was a treble on most of the batch, but a double on 3629. Finally, 3624 was the only example to receive Selnec livery.
Eighteen months later Queens Road Depot got the first of the PDR1/2 Atlanteans (3721-35) for the #163, but these were very different sounding, thanks to their Daimler gearboxes.

Don McKeown

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – 655 BWB – 225

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - 655 BWB - 225

Sheffield Corporation
1962
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1
Metro Cammell H44/33F

This bus was one of a batch of nine supplied new to the B fleet as fleet number 1355. This batch were extensively used from new on service 41 to Hackenthorpe where there was a large new housing development. They were the first rear engined double deckers for the B fleet and were the final batch with rear destination displays before reversion to rear route numbers only.
Following the absorption of the B fleet in 1970, the bus was renumbered to 225. Here it is seen at Fulwood terminus of service 88 which replaced the former tram route. Fulwood was the elegant part of the City! The date was 26th August 1973, the bus looks smart and as always the Sheffield livery helped to disguise the box shape of early rear engined deckers. It carries the final pre PTE fleetname introduced I think by General Manager Noel Macdonald. It still has a full set of Leyland wheel embellishers although eleven years old. Note the Sheffield bus stop flag, quite distinctive in the days before the nationally standardised type.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

03/08/15 – 16:06

I always thought the original Atlantean and Fleetline designs from the MCW group had a certain symmetry that was lost with the later moves to graft on curved or vee windscreens and peaked domes which always looked like a bit of a lash up to me. Yes the design was ‘boxy’ but it was simple seemed to work. The PRV/Roe early incarnations though were absolutely dreadful with the top heavy Bridgemaster upper deck characteristics. Of all the body builders on the early rear-engined buses only Alexander really got it right with the Glasgow design.

Philip Halstead

04/08/15 – 06:54

I agree with Philip regarding the style of the early MCW Atlantean/Fleetline bodywork.
I have always thought it to be a rather good, quite attractive design which was most appropriate for the then ground breaking rear engined buses.

David Slater

05/08/15 – 06:20

But are these wheels with their embellishers red- as they should be- or blue, reputed to have been in “celebration” of a rare & brief Conservative takeover of the city council in 1968? Bit of history here.

Joe

wheel

Best I can do I’m afraid.

06/08/15 – 05:49

Both red AND blue would you say? Red centre on a blue wheel?

Joe

06/08/15 – 15:37

I lived at Hackenthorpe when these were introduced. What a revelation they were replacing the AEC batch 190 -198. 1261-1263 + Leylands 159-161. At eve rush hour when full standing by the driver you would marvel at the gear changing (a lollipop in a fag pkt). When new as joint omnibus fleet they did not carry the city’s coat of arms! When did 225 receive it? Must say it wasn’t long before I missed the wonderful exhaust note of the AECs!!!
NB I am collecting photos of any buses on the 41 route in 50s/60s if anyone can help?

David Grant

07/08/15 – 17:06

I preferred the Park Royal body from around the same period.

Andy Fisher

02/09/15 – 07:06

I also lived at Hackenthorpe when 1350-1358 were new.
The upper deck of 1357 was totally destroyed in a fire in the late 60s, while operating on the 41 to Hackenthorpe. It received a new Park Royal body and re-entered service in 1968.

Martyn Else