Midland General Omnibus Company 1948 AEC Regent III Weymann H30/26R
From what I can make out there was the Midland General Group which included Midland General obviously, Mansfield & District and Notts & Derby. One thing I find strange is that they purchased Bristol manufactured buses I thought that after 1948 only nationalised bus operators could do that. Although one thing I found out was that the general manager of the Midland General Group was also the general manager of the Lincolnshire Road Car Company which was a nationalised operator. One interesting point is that Midland General had their initials in place of the AEC badge on the radiator as can be seen in the blow up below.
This is Mount Street bus station, Nottingham. This is a pre-selector, and as I remember, it was quite unusual for them to be used on the C5 (and B3) Alfreton routes – more usually the crash gearbox Regent IIs. Even up to the late 1960s when the main service was run by Lodekkas, Underwood depot used to turn out two or three Regent IIs on Saturday mornings when the service frequency was doubled. The transmission sound of a crash gearbox Regent II was sheer music. With regard to MGO’s purchase of Bristols, as I understand it the company was part of the Balfour Beatty Group. However, anticipating wholesale bus nationalisation (which didn’t actually materialise), they sold out voluntarily to the British Transport Commission. Their first foray into the Bristol marque was a series of (I think) 15 KSW6G’s in 1952. (They also tried out the prototype Lodekka – a strange and ugly contraption with a very wide exposed radiator.)
Stephen Ford
Strictly speaking, Balfour Beatty were nationalised because they were an electricity generator (for their Notts and Derby’s trolleybuses). They were handed over to THC/Tilling as a result of this. They would happily have continued with AEC/Weymann otherwise.
David Oldfield
(They also tried out the prototype Lodekka – a strange and ugly contraption with a very wide exposed radiator.) I had to have a wry smile at the above comment, which is admittedly basically true I suppose. What many don’t realise though is that it didn’t have the equally revolutionary “Lodekka” body, but rather a modified version of the standard postwar product – recognition of this feature perhaps being eclipsed by the dramatic radiator and bonnet etc. Eventually joining West Yorkshire Road Car Co. Ltd as 822, it was renumbered with the rest of the fleet and ended its days as DX1. Ugly duckling it may have been, but it was the first practical model to abolish the awkward offside upper saloon gangway and poor headroom, and the notorious nearside leaning and rolling on cambers.
Chris Youhill
The KSW’s mentioned were delivered to Notts & Derby as replacements for the BUT trolleybuses which came off service during 1953. The prototype Lodekka was never owned by the company but spent a while with them on a trial basis however this did start a long relationship with Bristol/ECW right through to the demise (almost) of the MGO group in the 1970’s. Indeed the very last Lodekka (YNU 351G) became part of the fleet in the Autumn of 1968 and after continued service with Trent passed directly into preservation in 1980 where it still is – I was one of the original owners.
Paul D Chambers
23/03/11 – 06:50
The Barton’s low bridge decker looks like one of there NCME Regent V with the wrap around front windows a very smart looking design.
Roger Broughton
23/03/11 – 20:03
I remember these Regents with great affection and I was privileged to travel on them as a young lad! There were three batches, the MRB’s as shown were delivered new to Midland General, then the JVO’s, some of which were transferred from Mansfield District to Notts & Derby as trolleybus replacements and of course the last, the ONU’s which were lowbridge. It’s always slightly annoyed me when these ones are referred to as RLH type Regents, I’ve always felt that London Transport’s RLH’s should be described as ‘Midland General type Regents!’ The most memorable thing about all of them was the astonishing condition in which they were maintained, some of them achieved almost twenty years service and they were always turned out in pristine condition right till the end. In their later years, there was a concentration of them at Ilkeston garage, for use on the frequent town services which involved a stiff climb up the main street with many stops and high loadings, a task which they performed with consummate ease, much better than a lumbering Lodekka! In fact, I think it wasn’t until the arrival of the semi-automatic FLF6LX Bristols that the management of MGO thought they had anything capable of replacing them.
Chris Barker
24/03/11 – 06:37
You are right about the RLHs Chris (which of course were actually diverted from MGO). Similarly, the Regent IIs which tend to get called STLs. Goodness – LT only had 20 of them. Plenty more went elsewhere, and they were about as different from proper STLs as chalk from cheese! As for the Ilkeston town services (A2 and A3) I seem to remember some of the N&DT KSW6Gs being used, in the early 60s, when they had been displaced by Lodekkas from the Nottingham – Ripley B1. I guess it was the pre-selector gearbox on the Regents that made them favourites with Bath Street hill to contend with in one direction and Nottingham Road in the other.
Stephen Ford
21/01/14 – 06:54
I hope I’m correct in this statement but Bristol double deckers where not in service at the Midland General until after 1957 to 1958…. I used to work at Underwood garage 1973 to 76, and used to drive the old deckers both with Gardner engines and also with Bristol engines, these where brutes to the brain, left arm and the hearing at times when missing a gear the right leg also suffered due to the throttle being connected direct to the governor in the fuel pump.
Murray Bacon
21/01/14 – 09:09
The LW and early LX series of Gardner engines had ‘all speed’ governors which worked by setting the maximum engine speed at a level determined by the accelerator position. Pressing the throttle pedal to increase the revs acted against the resistance of the governor setting, and resulted in a heavy pedal action. When changing gear upwards with a conventional clutch/gearbox transmission, it paid to blip the engine slightly to take the load off the governor once the gear had engaged before releasing the clutch again to take up power. This obviated the tendency to jerk when the throttle pedal gave way suddenly under foot pressure.
Roger Cox
22/01/14 – 06:37
Murray, you may be right so far as Underwood was concerned, but I think Langley Mill had Bristol Lodekkas earlier than 1957. I’m almost certain they were running on the Hucknall – Alfreton C9 by 1956 at the latest. And of course there were the 15 earlier Bristol KSWs, that were actually Notts & Derby rather than MGO, which came in 1953.
Stephen Ford
22/01/14 – 14:06
Midland General’s first Lodekkas were actually delivered in 1954. One early use of them was on service 44, Derby – Chesterfield which had been instituted in that year and was regarded as a ‘flagship’ route so Alfreton garage may have had some of the first LD’s.
Chris Barker
22/01/14 – 17:56
For reference, the first Lodekka prototype LHY 949 is here www.sct61.org.uk/
John Darwent
25/01/14 – 08:12
Thanks for the link to the photos of prototype Lodekka LHY 949 John. Stephen’s earlier comments about the Lodekka prototype being a “strange and ugly contraption with a very wide exposed radiator” are, as Chris Y notes, basically true. However, if one looks at the ECW bodywork fitted to both prototypes, even though they were of differing styles, they were still quite attractive – as long as you didn’t stray around to the front end (Oooof!). It is well documented that the pair of Lodekka prototypes used some parts from the two prototype M-type chassis exhibited at the 1948 Commercial Motor Show. Intended as a beefed-up K-type with export markets in mind, the M-type was to have been available in double-deck (MD) or single deck (MS) form, and with either a Bristol AVW or Gardner LW engine, but it never went into production. Externally the main parts transferred over to the prototype Lodekkas appear to have been the wide radiators, chrome bumpers, bonnet assemblies, front mudguards and headlamps. The wide radiator did neither of the Lodekkas any favours, and the kindest comment I have read to date called it “ungainly”. Considering the overall attractiveness of the bodywork, the ‘set back’ look of the cab in relation to the radiator, mudguards and bumper simply jars. Most un-Bristol/ECW-like. Going back to Midland General Stephen, the prototype Lodekka demonstrated to the Company, plus Mansfield District and Notts & Derby, was West Yorkshire’s 822 (JWT 712).
British Rail ran a staff bus between Sheffield Midland Station and Tinsley Marshalling Yard and at various times used this ex Mansfield District bus (fleet number 15), similar KRR 264 and KRB 88 which was an ex Midland General Leyland PS1 with a similar body. All ran in the colours of their previous owners. Later the work was contracted to Chesterfield Corporation who used one of their fleet of AEC Reliances to cover the duties. One of Sheffield’s 1957 Regent V/Weymann is behind, laying over at the terminus of service 60 to Crimicar Lane. This service had been extended from its former Leopold Street terminus in the City Centre to provide a useful link to the Midland Station. In the background one of the 1960 Alexander bodied Regent V is about to turn left into Pond Street Bus Station.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
11/05/11 – 15:37
Fascinating. Was a regular user of the 60 between Crimicar Lane and Midland Station – especially on the said Regent Vs. Was never aware of – and therefore never saw – the British Rail staff buses of any description. PS1 would have been 1946 onward but Regal III would have been 1947 onward. Other than that, I’m no help at all with the date.
David Oldfield
11/05/11 – 19:32
Not a terribly helpful comment, but I believe C T Humpidge was responsible for the blacking out of the cross pieces on the destination indicators as seen on the AEC Regent V and he took up post following R C Moore’s retirement in May 1961.
John Darwent
12/05/11 – 07:00
Yet another fascinating Sheffield picture. In tram days, there had been additional cars on the Walkley section of the main cross-city route to Intake running between Walkley and the Midland Station, quaintly showing ‘LMS STATION’ on their blinds. When the buses took over from the trams on 8th April, 1956, the new 95 bus service was extended at the Walkley end from the old tram terminus along to Tinker Lane, and additional buses were put on between Elm Tree at the Intake end and Walkley (South Road) where the trams had terminated, but the connection to the Midland Station was severed. To reinstate that link between the railway station and the city centre, and no doubt to the delight of Fulwood passengers who up until this time had managed to get only as far into the city centre as Leopold Street, alternate journeys on the route 60 Fulwood were extended from Barker’s Pool down High Street and Commercial Street to the Midland Station. Imagine getting off your train to be greeted by just such a sight as this one, of a splendidly turned out AEC Regent V waiting on the station forecourt. The heyday of the bus, indeed.
Dave Careless
12/05/11 – 07:03
Ah what beautiful vehicles! There were 25 PS1’s new to Midland General in 1948 and 24 Regal III’s new to Mansfield District in 1949. The bodies were similar but the PS1’s were bodied by Saunders, withdrawal of these started in 1962 and was completed in 1964, Two went to British Rail, KRB 87/88 in 5/64 and 4/63 respectively. About a dozen of the Regals were transferred to Midland General in 1958 and whilst MDT began to withdraw their remaining ones in 1962, MGO kept their acquisitions until 1967, just short of 20 years service. They usually worked out of Alfreton garage on MGO’s ‘rural’ services E2,E3,E4 and E5 between Alfreton and Matlock, routes with some very steep hills, but their 9.6 litre engines could out-perform the later LS’s and MW’s any day! I remember being taken to Matlock on summer Sundays and I loved to travel on these, which were always kept in beautiful condition. On arrival at Matlock Bus Station, they kept company with Silver Service’s wonderful vehicles and North Western’s Bristol K’s. Matlock was a great place to visit then! Fortunately, one of the Regals, KRR 255 is preserved and I believe it usually resides at the Midland Railway Centre, Butterley, Derbyshire.
Chris Barker
12/05/11 – 07:05
The KRR Regal IIIs were new in 1949. KRR 255 is preserved and active.
Peter Williamson
26/10/11 – 10:45
After service with British Rail KRR 261 went to Sykes a dealer at Worsborough Dale South Yorkshire. Does anybody know if this dealer is still trading?
Gren
01/12/12 – 15:53
Am I right that Paul Sykes of Sykes is the same Paul Sykes who developed the giant Meadowhall mall in Sheffield & other ventures, one of the richest men in England? He probably doesn’t need to strip buses much now, but is the company or yard still going?
Joe
09/06/14 – 06:55
British Rail in 1949? oh no! Please gentlemen, surely it could only have been British RailWAYS ? Unfortunately that error seems to be perpetuated by most of the present day railway and model railway press. Despite that pedantic comment on my part, I have to say that I find this to be a marvellous site which I visit regularly. Thanks to all involved
JOJ184
09/06/14 – 11:09
JOJ184, I’m afraid you are making the same error as those you are complaining about. There is nothing pedantic about accuracy and you are being accurate. Far too many people, particularly those working for various media, who claim great education, research and gravitas, daily project errors onto the airwaves, into print and on line. Given their standing and the widespread unthinking acceptance by the public of what they read and hear, especially from rolling news and internet sites such as Wikipedia, historians and researchers of future generations are going to have their work cut out to reach the truth. Rant over!
Phil Blinkhorn
10/06/14 – 07:56
I’m not sure that anyone is being accurate actually. 1949 is the year the bus was new. The date it was photographed with BR is as yet unknown. It would be helpful if someone could post the date on which BR changed its name, then we might have a firmer basis for saying which name should be used.
Peter Williamson
10/06/14 – 07:57
Phil, whilst wholeheartedly agreeing with your comments above I think JOJ184 has misinterpreted the heading caption to the photo. While it is somewhat misleadingly put as British Rail 1949, the year is actually referring to the AEC Regal III/Weymann build date. If you look closely at the side of the bus it is sporting the double arrow logo of British Rail and would have been taken sometime after 1965 hence on this occasion British Rail is the correct terminology. Strange how the board was still known as “The British Railways Board” long after the name British Rail came into use.
If I recall the British Railways rebranding took place around 1965 and included the change of name, the both ways logo and a typeface- Rail Alphabet. This justified a memorable edition of Design Magazine. It was a major step forward- clear and attractive. Apart from London Transport and its successors I’m not sure if any other combination of transport providers has ever done anything like this: logos have been generally messy, undistinguished or unnoticed and liveries- shall we say- lacking in design coherence and simplicity. Some, like SYPTE’s red and yellow or Lincolnshire RC / YTC’s purple and yellow were just awful.
Joe
10/06/14 – 07:59
For the record, JOJ184, British Railways changed its trading name to British Rail in 1965. So none of this thread would include WAYS!!
Chris Hebbron
10/06/14 – 08:02
Wasn’t the Sheffield Midland-Tinsley staff shuttle worked subsequently by SUT (using East Midland buses on summer Saturdays, when all SUT’s coaches would be in demand), and then by Booth & Fisher? I imagine the need for the contract came to an end when BR realised just what a white elephant Tinsley marshalling yard was. And I’m sorry to be a pedant here: but, Phil and JOJ184, the British Rail reference is correct as the picture must date from after the British Rail corporate launch in 1965 . . . as the bus is clearly sporting the BR double arrows.
Philip Rushworth
10/06/14 – 08:03
I’ve answered my own question. Wikipedia says that British Railways traded as British Rail from 1965. My copy of BBF5 is dated April 1965 and shows KRR 261 still with Mansfield District. Therefore the photograph must have been taken in 1965 or later, so that “British Rail” is probably correct.
Peter Williamson
10/06/14 – 15:56
The point about the discrepancy between the date of the bus being built and the date of the photo is well made, as is the fact that the vehicle bears the British Rail logo, dating the picture to 1965 or later. With regard to the British Railways Board and the British Rail name, Peter Williamson has it spot on. British Rail was a trading and marketing name so, had this been a non nationalised company it would have been listed at Companies House as British Railways t/a British Rail.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/06/14 – 15:57
Paul Sykes the bus scrapper is also Paul Sykes the builder of Meadowhall and now chief backer of UKIP
Chris Hough
11/06/14 – 07:48
“British Rail” may be chronologically correct for the photograph, but it is still grammatically gormless. I still resent the term “Rail Station” which, to me, indicates a repository for bulk steel strips, not a boarding and alighting point on a particular mode of transport. Would Gerard Fiennes, if writing today, entitle his book, ‘I Tried To Run A Rail’? I can just about accept “Train Station”, which is compatible with “Bus Station”, but the correct term for the transport infrastructure is ‘Railway’, whatever the marketing morons would wish to thrust upon us. (Dr Johnson is dead; long live Dr Johnson.)
Roger Cox
11/06/14 – 07:50
For clarification, I took the photo on 10th February 1968 hence well into British Rail days
Ian Wild
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
24/02/15 – 15:02
EFE produced a model of an AEC Regal in British Railways livery. It has the registration HKL 842 (Sheffield?) and the code 851-SOM on the sides. Does anyone have any information about this vehicle?
Ian Rawstron
25/02/15 – 06:04
HKL would be a Kent registration Ian.
John Darwent
25/02/15 – 06:05
If you look at: //www.classicbuses.co.uk/mdreg.html and scroll down a bit there is a detailed history of the whole batch with a couple of photographs. It was new to Maidstone & District.
Midland General Omnibus Company 1949 AEC Regal III 9621E Weymann DP35F
A classic combination of AEC Regal III and Weymann body. Chassis number 9621E481 was combined with a 35-seat front-entrance Weymann body, M4122, and appropriate seating to allow dual-purpose use. Worthy of note is the ‘MGO’ badge replacing the more usual AEC triangle and also the additional chrome-work of which Midland General were so fond. For me, the blue and cream livery was enhanced by this additional, but tasteful adornment. This superb vehicle was caught at Showbus 2016.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
03/11/16 – 07:11
This Regal was one of a batch of twelve 174-185 with Midland General all of which were transferred from Mansfield & District in 1958. So it would have originally been in a Green and Cream livery and may of had a MDT badge on the grill and was fleet number 9, not sure if the chrome work is original or added by Midland General at a later date.
M A
03/11/16 – 14:49
There were some Leyland PS1s with similar bodywork placed in service by Crosville Motor Services which were diverted from Midland General. They have the same style of chrome work and more of it on the side panels. Photographs to compare may be seen on the SCT’61 website: //www.sct61.org.uk/index/operator/cv Photo 30 shows preserved LFM 302. Photo 31 of LFM 303 in quite a battered state after Crosville had sold it to a contractor.
David Slater
08/11/16 – 16:12
Mention is made of the MGO radiator badge in the picture of KRR 255. I attach an image of such a badge, as the picture does not show it off very well.
United Automobile Services 1965 Bristol Lodekka FLF6B ECW H38/32F
The last time I posted one of my own photographs on site was the 14th of November 2010 which is three and a half years ago, now that was a very good run I think, thank you to all the contributors for keeping the site going. So as it as gone a little quiet it is back to my mostly Northern shots, the first being one of my favourite vehicles.
Seen in Scarborough bus station within the first few weeks of service a fine example of the Bristol Lodekka. These Lodekkas were powered by the six cylinder Bristol engine and boy could they go, especially down Burniston Road when on the Scholes Park Rd to Scarborough route I’m afraid I cannot remember the route number.
(After my beloved AECs) What could be better than a Bristol powered FLF? Well an FLF6B in Scarborough, of course. Some of my best holidays, and indeed some of my best days out, have been in Scarborough. (Only bettered by Whitby and Robin Hoods Bay – which are strangely now in the Borough of Scarborough). Much as I love East Yorkshire, Scarborough is in the North Riding and in United country. [I don’t care if you think I’m a bolshy old man. Traditional boundries do mean something.]
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 07:28
Wonderful shot. These vehicles always looked so solid and well built. The Tilling Red ones always looked much better to me than the green fleets. The thing so fascinating about old bus photographs is the incidental stuff in the photos. The ‘Black & White Minstrel Show’ so politically incorrect by today’s standards and Roses Malton Ales. Bought out and killed off by Tetleys who in turn have been bought out and virtually killed off by Carlsberg!
Philip Halstead
15/05/14 – 09:49
Yes, Philip. You jogged a memory. The only time I ever saw the Black & White Minstrels live was at Scarborough – as was the only time I saw Tommy Cooper live. [Just like that!] Could be they looked solid and well built because they were, and I agree with you about Tilling Red.
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 11:37
This is indeed a lovely shot of a handsome bus, set off nicely by that red livery. As a former West Yorkshire employee, I must confess to thinking that United’s livery had a slight edge over WY’s from the mid-sixties, when the latter started repainting its buses without the black edging between the red and cream. United retained the black edging and to me their livery then looked just ‘a cut above’. United’s later change to red-painted wheels rather than traditional black endeared me to the fleet even more. That said, both companies definitely maintained their own character, and as an enthusiast I still remained very loyal to West Yorkshire. David, I too must be a member (part time) of the ‘Bolshy Club’, as I know exactly what you mean about the importance of traditional boundaries. A friend who has lived in Newton-le-Willows all his life, still writes Lancashire on his address in correspondence. Newton is officially in Merseyside, but as he says, “it’s nowhere near the docks”. At least the proud folk of East Yorkshire won their battle to have the county name reinstated, instead of the ridiculous ‘North Humberside’ inflicted in 1974. To many of us the roads around Scarborough and the rest of North Yorkshire just do not look right with turquoise buses traversing them instead of red ones, and neither do the roads in Co. Durham and Northumberland. Sorry folks, rant over!
Brendan Smith
15/05/14 – 17:46
Living in the bubble that was Sheffield with AECs (and Leylands) it was always a refreshing delight to go into Tilling land during holidays. Favourites were United and Lincolnshire but I had a soft spot for West Yorkshire when I happened that way – even more so when London journeys linked me up with WYRCC RELH6G coaches. I also remember a journey on the X43 (?) from Leeds to Scarborough by RE. I then sampled the delights of Western/Southern National when we holidayed in the West Country, as well as Bristol on the way down. […..and of course that bastion of AEC, Devon General.] Oh well, nostalgia is a sign of old age. Nurse? Nurse?
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 17:46
It’s interesting that Brendan notes distinguishing features between United’s and West Yorkshire’s liveries, even though both were Tilling red/cream. I felt the same in the south in the early 60’s, with Wilts and Dorset and Thames Valley. Both were Tilling red, but there was something in “the look” which usually made a slight difference to the eye – Wilts and Dorset had cast fleet number plates, Thames Valley had painted numbers, for example. I felt the same about green Tilling companies, such as Hants & Dorset and Southern/Western National. As a teenager enthusiast, I sometimes felt that Tilling companies could be rather boring because of the similarities. But once NBC corporate livery appeared, boring took on a new definition – ’nuff said!
Michael Hampton
16/05/14 – 06:53
According to Bus Lists on the web, full production records exist for 1714 of these Bristol’s of which 164 were for United. However, another 300 or so were built where only partial records exist, and some of them went to United, so its not unreasonable to assume that the actual number they had would have been nearer the 200 mark. Several United depots ran services into Newcastle, and they always looked well cared for. I cant speak for other depots, but I know that the coaches based at Whitley Bay depot were always washed by hand.
Ronnie Hoye
17/05/14 – 16:03
A fine picture of a well-loved marque. I think the route number from Scholes Park Road at that time would be the 116 cross-town service from Scalby Village to Eastfield Estate. This stopped at Scholes Park Road end on Burniston Road as no service down to Scalby Mills existed at the time. The Bristol FLF6B did in fact have a second coming in Scarborough in 1977. Chronic bus shortages in the United fleet for the Summer season in 1976 had seen the purchase of a variety of buses from other operators and Scarborough was blessed with some very decrepit MW6G’s from Crosville which thankfully only lasted a few months in to 1977 pending despatch to Barnsley. The shortages continued into 1977 and in June of that year United acquired four FLF6B’s from East Midland which became 545-548 in the fleet. Of these, Scarborough certainly had 546-8 – the PSV Circle records the withdrawal dates as 1/79 for 546 and later in 1979 for 547-8. My office window at the time faced onto Westborough (before pedestrianisation) and it was very obvious when 547 or 548 was dragging itself up the hill from the harbour terminus on service 106 to the Hospital which was a regular turn for these buses together with other town services. There was a bus stop right outside the office and therefore a variety of aural delights during the day. It was a rather incongruous situation whereby the delightful drone of an FLF could be followed by the raucous racket of a Mark 1 Leyland National! At the time, I lived at Cloughton Village some five miles out of Scarborough and on many occasions had need to use United service 114 into Scarborough. Up to 1978, this was a decent fast service due to an old agreement that out of town services could not pick up inbound within the Borough boundary which effectively meant picking up at Cloughton, Burniston and Scalby Villages was allowed but as soon the boundary was reached, ie Hackness Road end approx., then it was non-stop into Scarborough centre which was excellent. After the agreement was re-negotiated, it was much much slower due to many stops in the densely populated area within the borough.
My photo is of 547 ANN 566B at Scarborough Westwood Coach Park in October 1979 shortly before withdrawal.
John Darwent
17/05/14 – 16:26
Thanks John my holidays in Scarborough were in from the mid fifties to the mid sixties. Every year we had a chalet on the North Bay at Scarborough, number 99 actually, and stay in a B&B in Langdale Rd, we had two ways to get back at night. Walk to the Corner Cafe (Waffle Shop) then up through Peasholm Park, Columbus Ravine to Langdale Rd. Or up the back of the chalet over the little train line on to Scholes Park Rd, walk to the top for the bus which was parked waiting in Scholes Park Rd, it was parked about 100 yds from the junction with Burniston Rd opposite a small static caravan site, not sure how it turned round, it just seemed to be always there waiting. We would go by bus in a round about way as far as Dean Rd (Fish and Chips) then down Langdale Rd
Peter
17/05/14 – 19:10
Nice shot of 547 John. It looks in tidy condition, and it must have seemed a real shame that it was soon to be withdrawn. The bus appears to have a one-track route number blind. Was this a standard Mansfield District (its original owner) fitment when new?
Brendan Smith
18/05/14 – 06:31
547 certainly was tidy Brendan but I suppose nobody wanted slow old front engined buses by then despite its condition. I read somewhere that three-track destination numbers were introduced by Midland General on deliveries in 1966 and later, so 547 being a 1964 bus was probably equipped with original fitments said to be two track. Letters seemed to be used as prefixes (the first track) with two numbers on the second track. I’m wondering whether 547 is actually displaying I16 as a makeshift compilation. Destination displays on Mansfield District buses seems to vary somewhat between two and three apertures and perhaps somebody can throw some light on this. Peter, I’m wondering if there was a seasonal service from Scholes Park Road in the 50’s/60’s in view of what you say. My time in Scarborough started in the mid 1970’s and the earliest timetable I have is from 1984 from which I have quoted. Any buses going down Scholes Park Road could reverse at Scholes Park Avenue, so what you say is probably right. If Gordon England or Gordon Green reads this, they may be able to enlighten us! Present day services by Scarborough & District Motor Services (EYMS) operate as 3/3A and travel down Scalby Mills Road, more less parallel to Scholes Park Road, to the Sea Life Centre and then returning to Scarborough via the ‘The Sands’ residential development built on the site of the old ‘Corner Cafe’. Sadly, the aerial ride has long gone but the North Bay Railway lives on and the Open Air Theatre has recently been restored at a cost of umpteen million. Swifts Fish and Chips is on the Dean Road/Trafalgar Road corner, about 100 yards past Langdale Road- maybe the same site as you recall.
John Darwent
18/05/14 – 07:12
I have been on Google Earth, you are right about the Fish and Chip shop John but I was wrong about Scholes Park Rd it was actually Scalby Mills Rd. At the time that large Ivanhoe Pub was the static caravan site that was called the Ivanhoe Caravan site I think there was also a shop there as well but that fronted onto Burniston Rd. Sorry about that, that’s old age for you
Peter
19/05/14 – 07:16
All Midland General’s Lodekkas had two track blinds although the earliest ones were retro fitted. As John D says though, from around 1966, three track blinds began to appear which was surprising because MGO had no requirement for them apart from a few works services which had Wxx numbers. ANN 566B was a Mansfield District bus and they all had one track blinds until around 1966. MDT’s services were numbered between 1 and 219 but only about forty of the numbers were used and the blinds carried just those plus a few extras for possible future use. Both companies had via blinds until 1966 when the T layout became standard but no via apertures were ever panelled over, those which had them carried full displays at all times, until the NBC came along, that is!
Chris Barker
19/05/14 – 07:17
I know exactly what you mean Michael when you say about certain former Tilling companies having their own ‘look’. To the casual observer, the BTC/THC ‘nationalised image’ was generally that of Bristol-ECW buses finished in either a red or green livery with one or two cream bands, or in the case of coaches, cream with red or green relief. However, looking a little deeper there were many livery variations such as Brighton, Hove & District’s red with cream window surrounds and roof, Wilts & Dorset’s red, black and cream dual purpose vehicles, and South Midland’s distinctive application of maroon and cream to its coaches. The ex-Balfour Beatty companies wore a livery of blue with cream window surrounds (Midland General and Notts & Derby) or the green version (Mansfield District). Cheltenham District not only retained its distinguished maroon and cream, but also its unusual layout. Turning to coaches, Bristol OC had its Bristol-Greyhound cream and red vehicles with distinctive lettering and logo, and who could forget the cream and black coaches of Crosville? Then there were the ‘classics’ such as Western/Southern National’s Royal Blue fleet, and the equally well-regarded cream and olive green coaches of United. In later years came Eastern National’s famous cream and green Lodekka coaches. Add to the above all the differences in destination layouts, style of fleetname and fleetnumbers, and it can be observed that the BTC companies were not perhaps as rigid in nature as some people believed. It surely provided more interest to the enthusiast than any of the big privatised groups do today.
Brendan Smith
19/05/14 – 07:17
Re 547’s number blind – as John states, from the 1966 deliveries, Mansfield District (green) and Midland General/Notts and Derby (blue) standardised on 3 track number blinds (presumably at the behest of ECW,as MGO/NDT didn’t need three track number blinds until 1978 when the letter/number route numbers were renumbered into the Trent system). Prior to 1966,Lodekkas new to Mansfield District had single track number blinds, as per 547; Lodekkas new to MGO/NDT had two track number blinds. The number partly visible on 547 looks like 106, which is probably an original MDT blind – the range of numbers used in Mansfield, 101 upwards, was not dissimilar to those used in Scarborough.
Bob Gell
19/05/14 – 07:18
With regard to the ex-East Midland (ex-Mansfield District) No.547, Mansfield District did for a long time have single track route number blinds. The number of routes they operated was fairly limited, with three distinct tranches of numbers – single digit, three digit (100 series) and three digit (200 series). Midland General and Notts & Derby of the same group, also used single track blinds for many years, but later went over to two or three track (not sure which). Their route numbering system was one letter followed by a single digit number, (i.e. A1-A9, B1-B9 etc.) This gave them plenty of scope for expansion – as far as I remember, they never got beyond the G series, though there were a few express or excursion operations that did use other letters. And of course, there was the odd man out – the route 44, from Derby to Chesterfield, operated jointly with Trent and East Midland (the only service that took Midland General buses into Derby).
……and of course it be came more complicated when MGO & MDT swapped vehicles, as they often did. For a short period of deliveries MGO had 2 tracks and when such examples were moved over to the MDT fleet, as in 1969 with this 1961 FS6G, there was the need for special linen so that a 2 track blind could show 3 digits.
Berisford Jones
19/05/14 – 15:37
John D, Flattered as I am I regret that I cannot add to the discussion about the turning arrangements at Scholes Park Road. My childhood memories were of Whitby. However I can claim some connections in the area – my Uncle & Aunt lived in Ryecroft Road (just off Scholes Park Road and later my cousin on Scholes Park Road itself. In later life after marriage and a transition from transport to equestrian interests I have been a regular attender and exhibitor at Burniston Show which has occupied a number of sites in the locality.
Gordon Green
20/05/14 – 16:36
When, as a boy, I stayed with relatives in Newby in the summer, via Northstead the 116 was worked by single deckers usually an “L”. It terminated at Five Lane Ends and reversed around the corner to the stop. I don’t think it was a cross-town service then. I have a Summer 1951 timetable for the town services (100/1/2/3/4/5/6/07/9/10/13). The 113 ran between the Railway Station and Scholes Park Road – on reaching Burniston Road. The return route is just given as the reverse of the outward route. the 109 was the seafront service whilst the 110 was the Oliver’s Mount service.
Malcolm Wells
22/05/14 – 07:21
I commented earlier on the subtle differences between the supposedly same red or green liveries borne by the Tilling companies’ buses. And, of course, there were all those other variations which Brendan and others have referred to. I then stated that the NBC red or green was just plain boring. I still think that’s generally true compared with what went before, but I have to say that John’s picture of United 547 does indeed look smart. I guess it’s because the paintwork still has a shine to it, and of course the ECW bodied FLF also exudes a certain quality. However, whether they were in smart or faded red, there was little to distinguish a United FLF from, say, a Hants and Dorset FLF in NBC days. Uniformity reigned supreme!
Michael Hampton
22/05/14 – 07:23
When at college and university I spent the summers of 1966, 7 and 8 as a conductor in Scarborough. On the 113 at Scholes Pk Road the conductor was meant to use a whistle to signal to the driver when reversing. The snag was he couldn’t hear it so we always used the bell! Some drivers reversed back onto the main road, but most reversed from the main road. The service had three buses providing a 10 minute service. I still have my staff timetable for 1968 – There was a 10 min service from 07:00(9:30 on sun) – 23:10. For some reason the 23:00 terminated at Northstead. All the theatres had special journeys and I remember the Futurist had the Black and Whites at least two of the years I was in United uniform!
Mr Anon
22/05/14 – 07:24
These recollections of Scarborough and the town services, and especially the sea front service with those full fronted coaches have brought back some very pleasant memories of childhood holidays. I took this shot of BBL61 (LHN 936) opposite Corner Cafe in July of 1961 when I was just thirteen, with an old Agfa camera that my father acquired in Germany during the war. I well remember some of the town services turning round at a roundabout opposite the main harbour, and the buses threading their way through some of the narrow shopping streets leading away from the sea front and up out of the town. Some of the best holidays ever.
Dave Careless
26/05/14 – 09:33
Great picture Dave! The destination blind shows ‘The Mere’ which many will recall is where one could sail on the Hispaniola and dig for dubloons on Treasure Island. One of the ‘pirates’ did have only one leg – perhaps a war injury – a prerequisite for such a job? My Dad or Uncle knew ‘Ben Gunn’ on the island! For many years the buses on services 100 and 101 showed ‘Edgehill Road’ as the destination which meant little or nothing to holidaymakers. I recall ‘The Mere’ starting to appear on the buses at some stage. In the 1960s another uncle and auntie lived in a bungalow on Mere Lane overlooking The Mere, a smart property then but absolutely fantastic now, so we regularly travelled on the buses to visit. The last time I looked The Mere was devoid of all the little buildings/kiosks for boat hire, ice creams etc. There was once an area for water ski-ing.
David Slater
26/05/14 – 11:25
Regarding the route numbers in question, I have a 1962 faretable in which the 113 was a local service from Railway Station to Burniston Road (Scholes Park Road). The 116 was a cross-town route from Eastfield Estate (Overdale) to Newby (Four Lane Ends), but there were no short distance local fares for stages between Steamer Moor Road and Cleveland Avenue (presumably the protected area)
David Todd
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
27/05/14 – 14:03
Fascinating recollections of Scarborough town services back in the day; I think my favourite United route in the area though was the 111, which ran from Scarborough, through Filey, and on to Bridlington if I remember rightly. I can’t even think about it without suddenly smelling fish and chips, or seeing a revolving rack of ‘saucy’ seaside postcards.
Dave Careless
I am not a bus aficionado, just a casual visitor to this site. I remember Eastern National having some ‘stretched’ versions of the FLF6B or Lodekka. The rear side windows (quarterlights?) were wider, making the bus about a foot longer. However, I have not seen any photographs of them on this site. They were a very fast bus.
Martin Robinson
26/09/14 – 05:43
David C – you are right about the 111 service via Speeton and Hunmanby. It did indeed run to Bridlington where it terminated in its own little United bus station on the Promenade (east side almost opposite the superb EYMS station) – well, I say bus station but it was actually a generous forecourt in front of the booking/enquiry office, and is now the outside seating for a small cafe. Like you, fish and chips, saucy postcards, and Joyland Amusements are my treasured memories of Bridlington in the 1940s/50s where I stayed often with Grandma and Aunty Doris – now where are the Kleenex tissues (other brands are available).
West Riding Automobile 1955 Bristol Lodekka LD6G ECW H33/25RD
Around 1958, the Chief Engineer of West Riding, Ron Brooke, entered into collaboration with Guy, who then had an impeccable reputation for sound, robust engineering, in the design of a maximum capacity front entrance, low floor double decker, similar in concept to the then very new Leyland Atlantean, but with the engine mounted at the front. The basic ideas (together with the promise of substantial orders) came from Ron Brooke, but Guy then took up the design challenge with ill judged enthusiasm, incorporating a host of advanced features that ultimately contributed to the downfall of the resulting Wulfrunian model :- See this link The Wulfrunian became the standard double deck purchase for West Riding from 1959 to 1965, by which time the profound deficiencies of the design had rendered it unsaleable to everyone else. When, in 1967, West Riding sold out to the nationalised Transport Holding Company (soon to become the National Bus Company) the new proprietors set about getting rid of the troublesome Wulfrunian fleet. A miscellany of double deckers from other NBC companies began appearing in West Riding green livery (the ex tramway red colour was abandoned, though NBC poppy red was soon to follow) and all the Wulfrunians went between 1968 and 1972, but only after donating their 6LX engines to new incoming Daimler Fleetlines. Seen in Leeds in April 1970 is No.405, XNU 428, ex Midland General 444, one of an entire batch of ten 1955 vintage Bristol LD6G with ECW H33/25RD bodies that passed to West Riding in June 1969. These ex Midland General Lodekkas did not last very long with their new owners, all ten being sold in July 1971, when XNU 428, by then 16 years old, went for scrap.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
31/07/17 – 07:28
Roger, I think the location is Wakefield Bus Station. Service 61 was Wakefield to Bradford direct. Tong Cemetery would be a short working on that route, probably a late evening journey
John Blackburn
31/07/17 – 16:28
I am sure that you are right, John. I was relying on my unreliable high mileage memory, but I was, myself, a bit doubtful that West Riding would be running from Leeds to Tong Cemetery in Bradford. Thanks for the correction.
Roger Cox
31/07/17 – 16:29
Interesting link Roger about the Wulfrunian- thanks. The flaw in them must really have been the Gardner engine, oddly enough- too big, too heavy. Yes, it looks like the old Wakefield Bus Station with Union St behind. Remarkable that they repainted these buses so thoroughly when they only had two year’s life. That’s not a Wulfrunian behind as you may expect- but presumably a Fleetline? The taller drivers of these Lodekkas always looked so uncomfortable with the angled steering wheel and their legs splayed out on to the high floor. Were they?
Joe
01/08/17 – 07:18
I have driven some Lodekkas in my time, Joe, but, after escaping from Halifax Traffic Office in 1966, I went to Aldershot & District as a driver for some 18 months before returning to the admin side of the bus industry. The Lolines were superb machines, particularly the Mk.IIIs, and the driving position (which was not dissimilar to that of a car) soon felt quite normal. Turning the angled steering wheel in tight corners was easier than reaching across the “traditional” flat wheel of other makes (especially if one had something like a heavy PD3 to deal with). The Lolines were the best buses I have ever driven, and I’ve sampled quite a few types over the years.
Roger Cox
01/08/17 – 07:20
You were correct John regarding the late evening service. On Saturdays the 2150 from Wakefield bus station ran as far a Tong Cemetery returning from there to Wakefield at 22:36. The last through service to Bradford ran at 21:33. I managed to pick up a West Riding Time Table for 1970 somewhere along the rallies I attended so was able to check with that.
Brian Lunn
02/08/17 – 07:12
I could never understand why West Riding persevered with the Wulfrunian for so long after the shortcomings must have been fairly obvious with the first batch. Bury, LUT, West Wales, Accrington and County soon got rid of their examples yet West Riding was still ordering sizeable batches. Did they have some sort of contractual commitment to Guy? The failings must have been wider than the problem of combining a heavy front engine with the entrance as the two Accrington ones had rear entrances and a much reduced front overhang but they still didn’t last long. Wolverhampton 71 was an interesting one as this had a forward entrance and I understand drum brakes and seemed to have a more successful service life.
Philip Halstead
12/08/17 – 07:32
Just a guess, but I think the reason why West Riding kept taking repeat batches of Wulfrunians in fact right up to 1965 when it was pretty obvious from the first batch that the design was flawed was because they had to keep faith with Guy Motors because I was told the West Riding GM who had a massive input in its design & actually got West Riding to build it. I think the West Riding GM was called Ronald Brook and he touted the Wulfrunian design around various manufacturers, AEC being mentioned. When West Riding decided to cut their losses & rid themselves of the Wulfrunians,the Halifax Lolines, old Bristol LDs, superior ex Bristol O.C FLFs and keeping lowbridge Guy Arab lVs longer plus new Fleetlines saved the day. All was not lost as a lot of valuable Gardner 6LX power units were salvaged & put in new Fleetline chassis.
Midland General Omnibus Company 1956 Bristol Lodekka LD6G ECW H33/25RD
Photographed in Nottingham in August 1961 is Midland General 453, 972 ARA, a Bristol LD6G Lodekka with ECW H33/25RD bodywork, delivered to the operator in October 1956. This vehicle, together with other buses from across the NBC, went to West Riding in April 1970 to expedite the withdrawal of the troublesome Guy Wulfrunian fleet. Sadly, 453 didn’t last very long in the care of West Riding as it went to the scrapyard in December 1971 having, rather pointlessly, been renumbered No. 408 just one month earlier.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
09/04/18 – 07:39
Such a pity the BTC had such a rigid livery policy with most Loddekkas being in wall to wall red or green. We were denied the opportunity to see such attractive vehicles in attractive liveries such as this one on a wider scale. The Midland General livery seemed to slip through the livery police net somehow but the loophole was soon spotted by the dreaded NBC and the even more dreaded poppy red was soon inflicted.
Philip Halstead
10/04/18 – 05:39
I agree – the only other attractive exception was BH&D, who had cream roofs and a much deeper band of cream around the lower deck windows – oh, and I think that either Notts & Derby or Mansfield District did something similar with Tilling Green and cream. Pity as the ECW body was beautifully proportioned, although too Spartan inside for my taste.
David Wragg
10/04/18 – 05:40
Some Midland General vehicles were initially painted dark blue with a white band and the fleetname in NBC style.
Stephen Bloomfield
10/04/18 – 05:41
Midland General never was a Tilling company but throughout it’s existence as a BTC and THC operator, it’s vehicles were always immaculately turned out, regardless of age and always sported comprehensive, fully working blind displays with via points shown, right until the later FLFs and VRs which had provision for ultimate destination and service number only. It was strict company policy that they must be correctly set too, the word ‘SERVICE’ would never have been allowed, in fact it wasn’t even on the blinds as an option.
Chris Barker
11/04/18 – 06:00
What is often overlooked regarding the BTC’s standard red and cream/green and cream ‘Tilling’ liveries is that when they were first introduced, the Tilling Group was in private hands. For many years the Group had operated a policy of centralised control and one of its aims, post-World War II, was to standardise on its ‘in house’ Bristol-ECW products – namely the K type double-decker in highbridge or lowbridge form, and the L type single-decker in bus or express form. Standard liveries for its bus fleets were also being pursued. When the Tilling Group was nationalised in 1948, outwardly it would probably have looked like ‘business as usual’ to the general public, as the old Tilling liveries remained. Interestingly, when the Balfour Beatty Group came under state control, Midland General, Notts & Derby Traction and Mansfield District retained their original liveries. Later, when the Red & White Group was acquired, Cheltenham District continued with its dark red and cream livery, applied in its distinctive fashion. The BTC did not seem to be as obsessed with rigid standardisation as perhaps the privately owned Tilling Group had been. Although many of the coaches in the BTC fleets donned cream with either green or red/maroon relief, some distinctive and well respected coach liveries continued – those of United, Royal Blue, South Midland, Bristol-Greyhound, and Crosville spring to mind. Presumably prestige and local good will still counted for something, even under state control. When the THC and BET Group were combined to form the state owned NBC in 1969, with the well-intentioned objective of halting the decline in bus use, for the first few years it appeared once again to be ‘business as usual’ regarding liveries. Ironically, it was someone from the private sector – one Freddie Wood – at the behest of the Heath government, who was responsible for the corporate liveries inflicted on the constituent companies in 1972. The standardised poppy red and white, or leaf green and white liveries for buses and ‘local coaches’ and the allover white National coach livery were not a patch on the liveries they replaced. In fairness, the introduction of the ‘National white coach network’ did improve public awareness of express travel and business did increase as a result, but why such an impractical colour was chosen for such hard working vehicles operating over long distances in all weathers remains a mystery.
Brendan Smith
11/04/18 – 06:04
Midland General, together with Notts & Derby and Mansfield District, were Balfour Beatty companies. Balfour Beatty initially concentrated upon tramway operation in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, whence it then broadened its activities into electricity generation and supply in those counties. When the electricity supply industry was nationalised in 1948, that aspect of the Balfour Beatty operation was taken over by the government, but the three public transport components of the business, by then using trolleybuses and motor buses, did not automatically follow suit. The disposal of Midland General, Mansfield District and Notts & Derby was a decision taken by Balfour Beatty in the light of the then Labour government’s aspirations for public ownership of the bus industry. Tilling sold out at about the same time, but the BET resisted. I agree with Chris that the standards of Midland General were very high, endorsed by the splendid livery.
Roger Cox
19/04/18 – 06:35
The reason that the Midland General fleet could be so smart was that the services operated were extremely profitable compared with other operators such as Trent.
Nigel Turner
20/04/18 – 06:40
Indeed so Nigel, Midland General had some very lucrative routes and on weekdays they operated many works and colliery services which operated throughout the day to meet changing shift patterns. On Saturdays, when vehicles which had been used on such duties might otherwise have stood idle, many of their principal services were so busy with shoppers, they were doubled in frequency, so the fleet was fully utilised. A blue livery and a blue chip company!
Chris Barker
23/05/18 – 06:47
Roger, the shareholdings of MGOC/NDT/MDT were all held by the Balfour Beatty subsidiary “MIDESCO”, the Midland Counties Electricity Supply Company – it was MIDESCO which was nationalised as part of the compulsory nationalisation of the electricity supply industry, becoming part of the British Electricity Authority (BEA). It was because Balfour Beatty chose not to separate out the accounts for MGOC/NDT/MDT from those of the parent (MIDESCO) that they were nationalised (as part of that electricity supply company). Initially the BEA negotiated with a management agreement with Balfour Beatty for “oversight” of MGOC/NDT/MDT, but this lasted only months until the BEA transferred MGOC/NDT/MDT to the BTC. The Llanelly & District company ended up in state-owned hands for similar reasons, but the outcome then was quite different.
The location of the photo is the old Mount St bus station in Nottingham, a place I was most familiar with, since I lived in Nottingham until 1964, and my bus home (either the Nottingham City Transport 63 or more usually the Midland General F5) left from there. It was a pretty basic facility, and I understand it was actually a genuine wartime utility bus station! Presumably the utility Guy Arabs in the Midland General and Barton fleets, which in the early 1960s were regulars there, felt at home in the place. I believe the place was built to ease overcrowding at Nottingham’s original Huntingdon St bus station, and would also save a bit of mileage for routes from the west,, probably an important consideration during the war. I always found the Midland General buses to be well presented and reliable, but it always seemed strange to me that travelling to and from school on the F5, usually on the same departures each day, you never knew what vehicle would turn up – anything from a utility Guy to a brand new Lodekka. The route was worked by Ilkeston Depot, and they seemed to have no consistency as to what was sent out on what duty. Mount St was replaced by a new smaller facility nearby after I left Nottingham, but that had a fairly short life before closure.
