Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 3

Not read from the beginning click here

Part 3 – Express Services

The A56 trunk road entered the Borough of Sale from the north at Crossford Bridge, where the River Mersey marked the boundary with Stretford (and Cheshire’s boundary with Lancashire), and was known as Chester Road until the junction with Dane Road. It then became Cross Street up to the School Road/Ashton Lane junction and finally Washway Road all the way south to the Altrincham boundary. It was an extremely busy road back in the 1960s for a variety of reasons. Firstly there was the “traditional” traffic which had used the route as the quickest way from Manchester to Chester, (and then on to North Wales) since Roman times. Secondly there was the extra traffic generated by new housing estates in both Sale and Altrincham, and thirdly there was the opening of the Cheshire section of the M6 motorway. In the decade and a half before the creation of the M56, the already congested A56 became the main link between Manchester and the original southern section of the M6 (which then ended at the A449 to the north of Wolverhampton).

The road congestion had its brighter side for a young bus enthusiast. All kinds of exotic long-distance coaches could be found amid the traffic, most of them moving slowly enough for legal lettering to be read. A fair number were operating on the many express services which passed through the borough. The most frequent of these was the X97 version of the Tyne-Tees-Mersey pool. A few journeys on this service reached Newcastle, but most of the vehicles ran from Leeds to Liverpool via Huddersfield, Oldham, Manchester, Sale, Altrincham, and Warrington. The X97 ran every two hours, alternating with the X99 (via Eccles in lieu of Sale and Altrincham) to provide an hourly frequency from Leeds to Manchester and Liverpool. At one time the workings via Eccles had been operated by Lancashire United and those via Altrincham by North Western, to appease the local licensing authorities in those towns, but by the 1960s LUT and North Western coaches were to be found on the X97 variant in equal quantities.

North Western’s main contribution to the X97 came in the form of “Black Top” Willowbrook dual-purpose vehicles built on both Reliance and Tiger Cub chassis. Towards the end of the 1960s the Reliance coaches with Weymann Fanfare bodywork which had been the regulars on the few through journeys to Newcastle were replaced on these duties by 36 ft Leopards with Alexander Y-type bodywork. LUT used a mix of all its underfloor engined dual-purpose fleet, including examples bodied by Burlingham, Duple (Midland) Plaxton, and Northern Counties (the latter were often described as the only coaches built by NCME in the post-war era, but they looked like DPs to me!).

The LUT/NWRCC hegemony over the Manchester-Liverpool end of the X97 was occasionally disturbed by interloping vehicles from the more distant members of the Tyne-Tees-Mersey pool. A West Yorkshire vehicle (usually a Bristol LS – the half-cabs never seemed to get further than Lower Mosley Street) might be seen once a month but they were never common. Between 1962 and the end of the decade I only ever saw one Northern General coach working the X97 through Sale (a rather nice Reliance/Harrington Cavalier in 1965) and United were rare at Lower Mosley Street and unknown in Sale and Altrincham. One vehicle which did pass through on an X97 in the summer of 1966 was a Durham District Services Bristol LS, carrying dual stickers which proclaimed it to be “On hire to United Automobile Services” and “On hire to North Western”

The London Services

The majority of North Western’s express services from Manchester to London also passed through Sale. Until 1960 North Western’s express routes had not been given service numbers (although vehicles capable of displaying them showed any number used by a joint operator). In the 1960 numbering scheme the assorted Manchester to London services were all given the number X5, but with a letter suffix to indicate their precise route. The suffix letters were identical to those allocated by Midland Red to the routes as a (largely theoretical) joint operator which helped to avoid confusion between the two systems when bookings were being made or the spoils divided. The five variants running through Sale were the X5L (the traditional daytime service via the Potteries and Birmingham), the X5M (the overnight equivalent of the X5L), the X5N (a faster night service which omitted Birmingham), the X5P (a short working from Birmingham to Manchester and the only one of the services where Midland Red contributed a vehicle), and the twice-daily X5Z (the quickest of them all, operating non-stop from the Tabley interchange on the M6 – six miles south of Altrincham to Mill Hill in north London, except for a brief refreshment/toilet break halt at the Blue Boar).

All the variants of the X5 used North Western’s newest coaches. When I first moved to Sale this meant VDB 907-916, the 36 ft Leyland Leopards with Alexander Z-type bodies known inside the company as “stretched Highlanders” – a term which always made me think of William Wallace in the hands of the King’s torturers. The original “Highlanders” (RDB 832-851 of 1961) had been Reliances with the more usual 30 ft version of the Z-type body. The ten stretched Highlanders remained unique as 1963’s express service Leopards carried the new (and very stylish) Y-type body which became North Western’s standard coach until the end of the decade. Despite what you might read in the PSV Circle fleet history of North Western (not one of their better efforts!) the company referred to the Y-types as “Travelmasters” and not “Highlanders”.

Midland Red’s token presence on the X5P arrived in the Manchester area at lunchtime and any hopes of exotic home-made C5 coaches were inevitably dashed by the sight of a Willowbrook bodied Leopard DP or one of the Duple Commander coaches delivered in 1965. It was almost as if BMMO worried about North Western stealing its advanced technology while the vehicle was on its lunchtime layover. I did once see an old S15 on the X5P, so presumably the technology on that type had already been declassified.

The Coastal Services

While Midland Red was categorised as a joint operator on the express runs to London, the express services from Manchester to the northern half of Wales were licensed solely to North Western, despite running in Crosville territory for the vast majority of their mileage. This was, in a sense, Crosville’s own fault. When the services had begun in the late 1920s Crosville had lobbied for local authorities in North Wales to deny licences to incoming operators. As a result North Western had operated its expresses as “period returns”, selling seats only at the Manchester end. The company had known that Crosville would object to any other arrangement (even though the Taylors’ company had made no attempt to operate its own expresses to Manchester), and when road service licensing began in 1931 North Western merely sought licences to preserve the status quo. As a result no revenue was collected in Crosville territory and no pressure could be applied under the “Combine” agreement for a share of the service or the revenue. In later years Crosville agreed to a relaxation of the uni-directional restrictions on the routes as they provided a useful link to the North Western/Ribble hub at Lower Mosley Street, and a commission on a ticket sale was better than nothing.

Off-season the North Wales services were maintained by a solitary journey from Manchester to Llandudno on the X24, but in the summer peak months the menu increased to include the X3 from Manchester to Barmouth, the X4 to Aberystwyth, the X34 (a variant of the X24 which ran via Prestatyn), the X44 (to Bangor), and the X74 (to Pwllheli). On a summer Saturday in the 1960s the seven “service” coaches allocated to these routes (usually Reliances with Harrington Wayfarer IV or Weymann Fanfare bodywork in 1962, Y-type Leopards by 1969) might be supplemented by up to three times that number of “hired in” coaches, most from Manchester area firms but with a sprinkling of names from further afield such as Niddrie of Middlewich and Bostock of Congleton. Duple and Plaxton bodied Bedfords predominated, but they came in a pleasing variety of liveries and passed through in waves at set hours of the day – unless the terrible traffic congestion in North Wales at that time had forced a reassessment of the return schedule!

One other North Western coastal express passed through Sale, in this case travelling in the opposite direction to the North Wales cluster. The X65 started in Northwich, passing through Altrincham, Sale, and Manchester on its way to Scarborough. Northwich depot only had three coaches (the service coach on this route in 1962 was either an elderly “KDB” Fanfare or a newer but more spartan “Black Top”) so at times of peak demand this route could also offer some interesting hires. The most numerous seemed to be Ford/Thames Traders with Plaxton bodywork belonging to Les Gleave’s Crewe-based subsidiary Roberts Coaches, but an occasional Salopia Bedford SB3 could be seen despite the “dead” mileage from Whitchurch to Northwich. From closer to home, Jacksons of Altrincham might also provide duplicates from their home town eastwards. Interestingly, Altrincham Coachways (a North Western subsidiary since 1958) never did, perhaps confirming the story that their general manager frowned on lending vehicles to the parent company as “they always come back filthy and with something wrong!”

Surprisingly, perhaps, there was never a North Western express service from Sale to Blackpool. This discrepancy is accounted for by the fact that the licence went to an incumbent operator, Pride of Sale Motor Services. This company will be dealt with in Part Four. One Blackpool service did pass through Sale but was not allowed to do business. This was the X36, which was shown in the North Western timetables of the 1960s as a single service from Sharston, the Wythenshawe estate, Timperley, Altrincham, and Urmston, to Blackpool. In reality it was worked as three separate services, one from Sharston and Wythenshawe (a licence acquired from Mayfair Travel in the late 1950s), another from Timperley and Altrincham, and a third from Urmston. The Sharston departure could often be sighted scuttling through Sale along Brooklands Road, Marsland Road, and the A56 northbound, aiming for the new M62 motorway (now part of the M60) from Stretford to Worsley and beyond it the A6 to Preston and then west to Blackpool. The Timperley and Altrincham variant came straight up the A56 through Sale before joining the Sharston vehicle for the route along the M62 and A6.

Another major coastal service had nothing to do with North Western, but (a little confusingly) used the service number “X5” albeit without a suffix letter. Yelloway’s famous service from Rochdale, Oldham, and Manchester to Cheltenham, Bristol, Exeter, and Torquay, passed through Sale on a daily basis during the high season, and three times per week in the colder months. Cavaliers had just taken over from Seagulls in 1962 which could explain why I still say hello to YDK 590 on every visit to the Manchester Museum of Transport. Longer Cavaliers followed before Harrington ended production and Yelloway turned to Plaxton for its bodywork. Nice as the Cavaliers were, they were far from the only attraction on this service. On summer weekends duplicates from Black and White Motorways, Greenslades, Grey Cars, Hebble, and Royal Blue were a frequent occurrence along with an assortment of Bedfords and Fords from smaller companies. Sale was actually a better vantage point to see these vehicles from than central Manchester, as many of these hires were loaded up first at Rochdale (or in the case of the Hebble machines arrived already fully loaded from Yorkshire) and then despatched non-stop to Cheltenham or beyond. They still had to travel along the A56.

Odds and Ends

PMT’s service X2 from the Potteries towns to Manchester passed through Sale twice a day and at times of normal traffic was usually operated by a relatively recent coach (in 1965, for example, Duple Commanders), but in the run-up to Christmas or on a day when Stoke City was playing a Manchester team, double-deckers were often deployed in the shape of a Weymann bodied lowbridge Atlantean or a Northern Counties Fleetline. The route always seemed to be doing very well or very badly with no happy medium. One day there would be a full Fleetline duplicating a full service coach. The next day the service coach would have nobody but the crew on board! It was easy to see why North Western had never sought a share of the route. Crosville finally reached Manchester with two “shoppers express” services in the early 1960s, the X69 from Pwllheli via Denbigh and the X75 from Llanidloes via Newtown. As with North Western’s much more numerous incursions into Crosville country, no attempt was made to acquire revenue from the outer terminus, and in effect these two services were little more than day excursions dressed up as expresses. Both services passed through Sale, the sight of their Bristol MW coaches achieving little more than a reminder of how a pig-headed and arrogant founding family can lose many opportunities, both for themselves and the travelling public. If the Taylors hadn’t held a grudge dating back to North Western’s acquisition of Mid-Cheshire in 1924 we could have had frequent, jointly operated, services from Manchester to Chester, Crewe, Wrexham, and the North Wales coast.

Neville Mercer
04/2014

Link to view Part Four – Local Coach Operators


08/04/14 – 07:58

I totally agree about Lancashire United’s Northern Counties-bodied “coaches”. The PSV Circle’s definition of DP is a bus shell with coach seats (or occasionally vice versa). It’s a useful classification, although I think “semi-coach” might have been a more accurate description of what it denotes, since the ability of a vehicle to be used for more than one purpose is a much more complex issue. The problem with these particular vehicles was probably that no-one else was ordering single-deckers from Northern Counties at the time, and therefore no-one could really say what their standard bus shell looked like.
They were rather splendid though, internally as well as externally. The standard of interior finish on these and other LUT DPs of this period was second to none, probably exceeding that of the true coaches that succeeded them when DPs went out of fashion.

Peter Williamson


09/04/14 – 08:24

I think there were plenty of cross boundary traffics between company territories which were underdeveloped over the years. It was one of the consequences of the route licensing regime – influenced not least by the possibility of railway objection.
This article prompted me to turn up W J Crosland Taylor’s 1948 book – The Sowing and the Harvest.
Regarding the 1923 discussions with the Mid Cheshire directors, he wrote “Alas! our skill in these matters was not as good as it became later and they got their price – selling to the North Western Road Car Company the next year. We were wild about it, but our wildness was tempered with admiration for our good friend George Cardwell (NWRCC), who had got the better of us on that occasion, and soon after that we met Cardwell at the Abbey Arms and over a friendly glass of beer agreed a pooling arrangement of joint services from Northwich to our territory which has worked well ever since.”
Those don’t come across as the words of a begrudging “pig-headed and arrogant” writer to me!

Mike Grant


10/04/14 – 12:33

Hi Mike, I’m afraid that I am not an admirer of any of the Taylor family, but particularly “WJ Crosland-Taylor”. I put that in inverted commas because he was born without the hyphen – Crosland was his second christian name. The fact that he would change it to sound more aristocratic says a lot about the man.
I’m also unconvinced by the mock generosity of his words about George Cardwell, written 25 years after the fact. From other accounts I would suggest that the “wild” part was the more honest reaction. And the sitting down in the Abbey Arms surely occurred several years after the Mid-Cheshire debacle when both Crosville and North Western were required by their new lords and masters (the “Combine” of Tilling & British and the railways) to hammer out area agreements regardless of how much they disliked each other. As regards “arrogant”, I would refer you to comments made about Welsh villages and the Welsh people in his various books. I think that they might agree with my verdict!

Neville Mercer


11/04/14 – 17:49

As far as I can establish, the joint Crosville/NWRCC services predated the Tilling B A T influence which I agree could have been a factor after 15th May 1930 when the Crosvlle firm was reconstituted.
144 Runcorn – Northwich began in the back half of 1928; 145 Crewe – Northwich shows as a joint service in the 1/10/29 Crosville timetable and 146 Chester – Northwich first appears in the 15/5/29 publication.
I have no doubt that there may be others sharing your views but equally from my experiences of North Wales in the ’70’s, “the Crossville” as it was often referred to, was a well respected part of the local community. The founders were long before my time but they did build a significant transport business and it is perhaps inevitable that almost “Branson- like”, they upset a few a people along the way.
Just to add to your observations about X69 and X74 I don’t think it quite accurate to say “no attempt” was made to attract bookings from the eastern end. NWRCC Northwich and Altrincham offices were both promoted for ticket sales in the service leaflets as was Lower Mosley Street. The vast majority of the traffic was for shopping and Saturday football excursions but single and period returns were available and used.
I enjoyed reading your piece but felt it worth pointing out for the record that there was another slant on Crosville history. One wonders if it‘s a consequence of having green blood!

Mike Grant


14/04/14 – 18:23

I’m left a little confused by your “green blood” comment Mike, having described the founder of Crosville as having the physical appearance of a hybrid between Ebeneezer Scrooge and a malevolent goblin (if you don’t believe me, look at a photograph of him!) in my book on North Wales independents. I presume that goblins do have green blood, but I suspect that you might have been referring to loyalty to Crosville.
I would agree with you that Crosville was a well run company in the period between the end of the war and NBC, and that it’s service network was far more comprehensive than my own beloved North Western (much as I loved this company its rural network was pathetic). My complaint is purely with the founding family who used tactics which were frequently disgraceful to achieve their near monopoly of bus services in North Wales. The evidence for this is far too bulky to present on this website, but much of it is in my North Wales book.
I take your point about the joint services from Northwich, but would suggest that the two operators’ cooperation was more to forestall any new competitors starting up before the 1930 Road Traffic Act (it was known long before the actual Act that fundamental legislative change was on the way) than an indication of a rapprochement.
As regards the X69 and X75, the leaflets may well have tried to produce traffic from the eastern end, but in all the years covered by these articles I never once saw a leaflet for the Crosville routes in either the Lower Mosley Street booking office or in Altrincham bus station’s enquiry office. I guess that you had to ask for them. Also, the two services were not mentioned on Lower Mosley Street’s signs, although in reality they operated from the former Finglands side of the bus station.
One last thought. I’m having trouble thinking of the Taylors in the same breath as Richard Branson. Surely a better comparison would be to Stagecoach, although Crosville’s anti-competitive tactics made Stagecoach look like saints. An ever apter comparison might be made to John D Rockefeller’s Standard Oil Company, which achieved its dominance by every kind of underhand tactic known to the business world. Admittedly a couple of the Rockefellers’ competitors had their refineries destroyed in mysterious fires, and I would never accuse the Taylors of going to that extreme. The Rockefeller monopoly was dissolved by Act of Congress in 1911 and split up to form Esso, Mobil, Chevron, Amoco, and a dozen other prominent oil companies. I think that a forced dismemberment of Crosville would also have been in the public interest. They could have given the successor companies names such as Mona Maroon, Llandudno Royal Blue, Brookes Brothers, and so on. The enormous reach of Crosville served their shareholders far better than the traveller. Even on the long distance express services, where a level of coordination existed between the assorted independents long before Crosville muscled in.
I think that we’ll have to agree to differ on this one, Mike.

Neville Mercer

Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 2

Not read from the beginning click here

Part Two – North Western

In 1923 British Automobile Traction, the motor bus subsidiary of BET, restructured its “branch” in Cheshire and northern Derbyshire as a subsidiary known as the North Western Road Car Company. At that time the new company had major bases in Macclesfield and Stockport (both in Cheshire) and at Buxton in Derbyshire. Its Stockport operations had reached out westwards to Altrincham but its vehicles had yet to enter the borough of Sale.

Meanwhile, another privately owned bus company had filled one of the gaps in Sale’s transport infra-structure by commencing a service from Urmston, travelling via Flixton, Carrington, and Ashton-on-Mersey. The Mid-Cheshire Motor Bus Co had been founded in Northwich in 1914, primarily to provide works services to the various chemical plants in the Northwich area. After the end of the First World War it increased the utilisation of its fleet by starting local services available to the general public and used the increased revenue to open a second garage in Flixton. As with the company’s first base the primary task of this depot was to provide works services (in this case to the sprawling Trafford Park industrial estate), but stage carriage services soon followed, including two circular routes in Urmston and Flixton, services from Flixton to Eccles and from Urmston to Warrington, and the run across Carrington Moss to Sale.

The Urmston to Sale route found few passengers except on the final section between Ashton and the town centre, so the service was rapidly re-scheduled. Its new timetable involved a bus positioning to Sale from Urmston in the morning, operating short workings between Ashton and Sale for most of the day, and then returning to Urmston via the full route in the evenings. The company was making money from its Northwich and Flixton operations, but not that much, and by 1924 the owners were being tempted to sell out.
Crosville was eager to buy, not only for the Northwich services which adjoined its own expanding territory, but to gain access to the Manchester area from the Flixton depot. Eager, but apparently not eager enough. As the Taylor family of Crosville haggled over a price (they were notoriously miserly) the more generous executives from North Western stepped in. In November 1924 Mid-Cheshire became North Western’s very first acquisition and NWRCC’s red and cream livery quickly replaced the blue and primrose previously worn by vehicles on the Flixton-based routes.

In North Western’s 1936 numbering scheme the Urmston/Ashton to Sale service became the 103 (at the same time the other former Mid-Cheshire routes serviced by Flixton depot became the 102/104-107). Having been established before the 1928 agreement with Manchester Corporation the service continued to cross the A56 boundary, passing Sale Station before turning in a triangular loop formed by Northenden Road, Woodlands Road, and Broad Road. The next major change, in the years just after World War Two, saw the Ashton end of the short-workings divided into two alternating services. One variation continued past Ashton Village via the original route to the junction of Carrington Lane and Manor Avenue, while the other turned slightly southwards into Firs Road, terminating just short of that thoroughfare’s own junction with Manor Avenue. Both versions continued to show “103” as a route number until 1962 when the Manor Avenue workings became the 205 and the Firs Road operations the 206. Through workings from/to Urmston kept the number 103.

When I arrived in Sale in the summer of 1962 the Ashton routes were still being worked by Atkinson Alphas, usually the two Willowbrook bodied examples (fleet numbers 512/3), but in early 1964 they were suddenly replaced by brand-new Alexander bodied Fleetlines. At that point in time North Western’s Urmston garage only had three Fleetlines (YJA 13/15/16, with matching fleet numbers) and it always seemed rather odd to me that these were allocated to the Sale “locals” rather than to the major trunk services between the Urmston area and Manchester city centre. I wasn’t complaining of course, the D-type Fleetlines were superb machines and appeared as futuristic at the time as MCTD’s “Mancunians” did later in the same decade. The salmon coloured ceilings in the upper decks of the vehicles made a particular impression upon me as did the double-curvature windscreens at the front ends. There were also a couple of friendly drivers who allowed me to stand on the platform and change gear for them – I should probably add that this was on a pre-selector box so no real damage could have been done. Nevertheless this would not happen in this day and age!

Until 1968 most of Manor Avenue was a lumpy dirt road, unsuitable for cars let alone PSVs, but in that year it was finally paved and as a result the 205/206 became circular services. This effectively doubled the frequency at the Ashton end of the route while still only requiring two vehicles. The services passed into PTE ownership in this form in 1972 and after the closure of Urmston depot were worked from Princess Road.

The “By Agreement” services

In January 1926 North Western acquired Altrincham & District Motor Services and became the most important operator in that town. Major inter-urban services were operated from Altrincham to Knutsford, Northwich, and Warrington, but passengers from Manchester intent upon reaching those towns still had to catch a train or connect with the North Western routes via the Manchester Corporation tramway. This changed in 1928 when North Western joined the Express Motor Bus network initiated by Manchester and the Altrincham trunk routes were allowed to continue up the A56 through Sale and Stretford to the city centre “by arrangement”. The terms of this agreement meant that the vast bulk of the revenues on the Altrincham-Manchester section went to the corporation – probably the reason why North Western was not too bothered by its drivers’ reluctance to pull in at designated stops on the way into Manchester.

The corporation allocated route numbers to these services; 36 for Northwich, 37 for Warrington, and 38/39 for Knutsford and beyond. These numbers were eventually endorsed by North Western in its 1936 numbering scheme – until then NWRCC vehicles had carried no route numbers. By the summer of 1962 the 36 was (as previously mentioned) being worked by PD2/21 Orions and Bristol K5Gs. Shortly after my arrival in Sale the service was renumbered as the 233 and extended at the Northwich end to Winsford and Salterswall. The older double-deckers were then replaced by AEC Renowns with an occasional Fleetline thrown in for variety. The 37 became the preserve of Alexander bodied Loline IIIs, while the single-deck 38/39 were operated by anything Altrincham depot could find including (from 1964) the Strachan bodied Bedford VAL14s with “Dunham canal bridge” roof profiles. These vehicles could be found on a surprising variety of routes worked from Altrincham. Their “core” duties were the Dunham Massey services (98/98A/210/211) and the Altrincham-Halebarns circulars (40/40A, later the 40/1/2/3), but they were also regular performers on the summer only X36 from Sharston to Blackpool, and weekend loans to Manchester depot saw them on express routes to Barnsley and Bradford.
One route which they never operated (mainly because of a sharp turn from Washway Road into Ashton Lane) was the 606 from Altrincham to the Petrochemicals plant at Carrington via the A56 and Sale. This operated three times each day and during my time in Sale was operated by underfloor engined saloons with either Weymann Hermes or Willowbrook dual-purpose bodywork (and “Black Tops”). Another restricted service which passed through the town was the 97B from Manchester to Parkside Hospital in Macclesfield, a long-stay psychiatric unit at that time. This operated on Sundays and could be operated by anything in Manchester depot’s inventory ranging from front-line coaches to superannuated Bristol K5Gs. There was also the 36C, which allegedly ran from Manchester to the Ancoats Hospital at Great Warford (near Knutsford) but I never saw one of these in more than a decade of living in Sale. Does anybody know more about this service? The obvious question is “why was it numbered 36C when it actually followed the 38/39 route”.

A latecomer to the roster of North Western services through Sale was the 504, a rail replacement service introduced in 1964 after the closure of the passenger railway line from Warrington to Stockport via West Timperley and Northenden. I occasionally used this railway line during 1963 as a way to reach Manchester Airport in time for the early morning departures (47/48 to West Timperley, train to Northenden, and then the first 64 to the airport – the things we do for our hobbies) and can testify that passengers were very few. The replacement bus service was equally short of punters. The 504 started at Urmston (offering connections by train from Warrington) and then followed the 103 route as far as Sale. It then turned southwards on the A56, passing the defunct West Timperley station, before making a left turn into Navigation Road and then joining the A560 to pass reasonably closely to the former Baguley and Northenden stations on its way into Stockport. I travelled on the early morning departure on this service more than 20 times in 1964/65 (both to go to the airport and to connect with long distance services at Stockport) and was the only passenger on every occasion! The regular vehicles on the route were “old friends” – Atkinson Alphas 512/3, enjoying a restful time before their eventual retirement in late 1965. They had the advantage (?) of rear entrances which meant that I could sit at the front and chat about buses to the crews. They seemed glad to have me on board. Predictably the service came to an end the moment the subsidy ran out.

Neville Mercer
03/14

Link to view Part Three – Express Services

North Western – Leyland Titan PD2/1 – CDB 237 – 237

North Western Leyland Titan PD 2/1

North Western Road Car
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland L27/26R

The full name was North Western Road Car Company Ltd and they were based at Stockport near Manchester. Another bus with a painted radiator did absolutely nothing for appearances the top deck windows are fairly deep for a lowbridge body though, the photo taken at Dean Street bus station, no it wasn’t, see comment below it was Lower Mosley Street bus station Manchester in 1965.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

“The photo was taken at Lower Mosley Street Bus Station, not Dean St, which was predominantly used by long distance services and is now the site of the Bridgewater Hall concert hall. Of the few relatively local services which used this city centre terminus were the No 6 to Glossop via Ashton New Rd, The No 28 to Hayfield via Stockport and Marple and the No 27 to Buxton via Stockport and Disley. My guess is that the bus in the picture was on one of these routes.”

Stuart Kirkham

Just to clarify, Stuart’s comments beginning “which was predominantly used by long distance services…” all refer to Lower Mosley Street Bus Station.  There was no bus station in Dean Street.

Peter Williamson

Looks like this bus was on route 29, Manchester Lower Mosley Street to Macclesfield. Used to leave Lower Mosley Street at 10 past every hour and operated by either Manchester or Wilmslow depots. I used to drive this route many times in the 60s but usually with Dennis Lolines or Leyland Tiger Cubs (LDB 796 was a regular on this route from the Wilmslow depot).

Richard Higgs ex employee of NWRCC ltd 1960-1968

16/12/12 – 17:28

It’s on the 29 to Macclesfield. Must be a summer Saturday for such an old vehicle to be on the premier service. Service was double decked in December 1961 with route variations in Macclesfield to avoid the Gas Road Railway bridge. Always amazing to see on “old” double decker rather than a new Loline or Fleetline on the service. I did see K5Gs once or twice in 1962-3.
796 was originally a Wilmlsow car and used on their one “turn” on the 29. Previously 699 or 700 had been the favourites. Happy days.

Bob Bracegirdle

17/12/12 – 08:12

Not necessarily a Saturday. Could also have been a replacement for a failed vehicle from either Wilmslow or Macclesfield. By 1965 Fleetlines were the regular vehicles backed up by Lolines – which came back into their own on the route in Crosville colours – after the split of NWRCC

Phil Blinkhorn

17/12/12 – 09:41

The #29 was the one bus route in Manchester that left after all the Corporation buses had departed town at 23:00 hrs and before the all-nighters began at double fares at 23:15. The 23:10 #29 operated on normal fares and ran through as far as Wilmslow. Very handy if one had been to the pics on Oxford Street and then gone for a drink, or two.

Orla Nutting

North Western – Leyland Titan PD2 – KDB 666 – 666

North Western - Leyland Titan PD2 - KDB 666 - 666

North Western Road Car Co
1956
Leyland Titan PD2/21
Weymann L30/28RD

Until the arrival of ten of these in the North Western fleet in 1956, previous examples of the Leyland PD2 had featured traditional exposed radiators and bodywork by either Leyland themselves, or by Weymann, who had supplied six lightweight but otherwise classically styled bodies in 1953. This last batch featured the PD2/21 chassis with the concealed front – originally designed for Midland Red’s LD8 class, then adopted as standard by Leyland, even leaving the oddly shaped blank space above the grille slots intended for the BMMO badge. The PD2/21 was the less common air-braked variant of the more common vacuum-braked PD2/20. The bodywork was the lowbridge manifestation of the MCW organisation’s lightweight Orion, regarded by many as being particularly slab-sided and ugly, though personally I always felt that the equal depth windows (compared with the unequal ones of the highbridge version) at least improved the overall proportions.
It seems that they were generally unpopular with crews and most local enthusiasts, being accused of being very hard riding. They were quite a familiar site to me – particularly on Summer Saturdays when the usual ‘blacktop’ Tiger Cubs or Reliances were needed for greater things – as they would often pass through my home town of Halifax working on the X12 between Manchester and Bradford. Although this service passed our house, the limited stop conditions on that section left it out of bounds to us locals, so I never got to ride on one.
Although the other nine were scrapped, Neville Mercer has said that 666 was exported to Canada, so there is a remote chance that it could still exist. Similar looking examples were also bought by East Midland, and the Corporations of Luton and Southend.
Here 666 is seen on the parking ground off Wood Street in Stockport, alongside 258, a Leopard PSU4/4R with Duple Commander III C41F body of 1968.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer


29/10/14 – 17:07

When I worked at Sharston (near Northenden) 666 from Manchester depot, took me on the first leg of my journey home to Royton. It was on the 64 service to Piccadilly (from Ringway) almost every day. I hated it. The suspension was indeed very hard. I usually sat on the front nearside seat in the lower deck, which was not too bumpy. The North Western drivers always gave me a fast run into town – they made good time by ignoring one or two intending passengers. As for sound effects, the journey was accompanied by sneezing noises from the air brakes!
At summer weekends it sometimes appeared on X12, Manchester – Halifax – Bradford. I had the misfortune to ride on it one Saturday from Bradford to Oldham. The West Riding road surfaces made for a miserable journey!
Wouldn’t mind a ride on it now though!!

Peter G


29/10/14 – 17:08

John mentions that these lowbridge PD2’s were familiar to him as they regularly passed through Halifax on the X12. This one actually passed through Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1972, on its way west, it certainly took me by surprise when I caught a glimpse of it. I’m not sure if it still exists or not, or just where it might be.

Dave Careless


30/10/14 – 07:18

The problem of harsh riding given by the lightweight Orion and its clones was shared by other makes of chassis, all of which were sprung to carry the typical weight of traditional, decent quality bodywork.

Roger Cox


30/10/14 – 07:19

Not only were they hard riding, they were finished to a cheap specification, rattled a lot and the crews hated the rear doors. All in all not the finest NWRCC vehicles.

Phil Blinkhorn


30/10/14 – 07:20

It’s lovely to see a photo of the registration number KDB 666 as nature intended, adorning a North Western Leyland Titan. In the late 1970’s the registration number could often be seen around Harrogate, attached to a very nice green Rover 3500. The bus connection was maintained however, as the Rover was used by one of NBC/West Yorkshire Road Car’s senior managers.

Brendan Smith


05/11/14 – 06:29

I have a note of seeing this bus in Frank Cowley’s yard in Fallowfield, re-registered KDB 499, in January 1972. I wonder what that mark was transferred from?

Michael Keeley


05/11/14 – 11:36

I’ve long wondered if “KDB 499” was a real registration mark. Given the fundamentalist tendencies of many North Americans I can understand why Cowley (given a Canadian buyer for the vehicle) might have decided to remove the original “Number of the Beast” plate, but would they really have gone to the trouble of officially re-registering it with a similar mark? My suspicion is that the plate was for purely cosmetic purposes.
Back in the late 60s I saw a few withdrawn NWRCC vehicles being ferried to Cowley’s Salford and Fallowfield premises using the dealer’s “BA” trade plates, and once the PD2/21 had gotten there its next trip was on a boat. I’d also be interested to find out when the WYRCC staff-car received the registration. Was there a noticeable gap?
The PSV Circle’s NWRCC fleet history asserts that KDB 499 was a genuine registration, but as aficionados of these histories will be aware the level of accuracy in this is not up to their usual standard. Does anybody have a record of Stockport registrations?

Neville Mercer


06/11/14 – 06:08

KDB 499 may well have been a real registration mark but not to NWRCC for a PSV. They had KDB 631 to KDB 700, all but 661-670 being applied to Tiger Cub deliveries in 1956 and 1957.

Orla Nutting


06/11/14 – 11:42

Hi Orla, I think you’ve forgotten the batch of Weymann Fanfares that started at KDB 626, making a total of 75 vehicles in the block allocation. KDB 499 was presumably allocated to a private car, and I really can’t understand why NWRCC would go to the trouble of re-registering the vehicle before selling it to Cowley. Back in those days this would have involved buying the previous vehicle to wear the marks – a rather expensive manoeuvre merely to get rid of one old bus. There’s obviously another story going on here – the allocation of 666’s old registration number to the WYRCC staff car. I appreciate that “KDB” looks vaguely like a WYRCC fleet number, but a staff car would look nothing like a Keighley based Bristol double-decker! Why would anybody (especially a no-nonsense THC subsidiary) pay good money to do this?
Do we have any ex-WYRCC readers who can throw further light on this?

Neville Mercer


06/11/14 – 14:15

Ah, yes. The AEC Reliances. I had forgotten them.

Orla Nutting


07/11/14 – 13:17

Neville, the senior member of staff arrived in Harrogate from elsewhere in the National Bus Company empire, and the Rover came with him, already bearing its KDB 666 registration. Maybe he had a soft spot for this particular bus (666) or perhaps there was something of significance in the registration. Alas we’ll probably never know.

Brendan Smith


11/11/14 – 18:18

I’ve done some digging in my records and find that KDB 666 was on a Rover 3500 that came under West Yorkshire admin on 16/1/75. However, it runs in my mind that the NBC ‘senior member’ was Robert Brook, and that he didn’t come to Yorkshire to join West Yorkshire, but to live. Certainly, it’s shown as being the ‘Chief Executive’s’ car. At about this time, if you remember, NBC was also running an area office in Darlington, to which Bill Stephen had been ‘shunted’ when he was removed as WY Chief Engineer, but whether that was where Mr Brook also worked I can’t now remember. I suspect he probably spent a lot of time commuting to London!

Trevor Leach


12/11/14 – 05:36

Presumably the Robert Brook who was General Manager of North Western at the time it was broken up? I seem to recall that there was another Robert Brook, although I might just have been confused by rapid ‘career moves’!

Nigel Frampton


09/04/15 – 07:05

I remember seeing a beige Rover in Cheadle in the late sixties or early seventies with the reg KDB 666. I loved occasionally having a lowbridge Titan on my journey to school. The routes 29, 30, 52 and 52A were predominantly Daimler Fleetlines, Dennis Lolines 2 and 3 and AEC Renowns (my favourite bus ever was AJA 121B one of the second batch with moquette upholstery on the upper deck) so a lowbridge Titan was quite a novelty.

Graham Bloxsome


23/05/15 – 07:05

There’s no mystery. Robert Brook was the last GM of North Western and he took the registration with him for his car when he left at the end of 1972. He also left with a photo I prepared for him of 666 as delivered in the old cream roof black wings livery. He and I left the Manchester area at the same time and he kindly let me speak to him in his office knowing my interest in North Western and as owner of CDB 206.

Bob Bracegirdle


01/09/17 – 15:14

I’ve just read through this thread and can definitely clarify, if there’s still any uncertainty, that Robert Brook was overall Chairman of NBC in 1978-80 at a time when Linda Chalker was Minister for Transport. My GM at the time would say ‘Oh dear, we’ve got another Dear Robert, love Linda.’ i.e. another memo from the Minister to our lord and master that had to be dealt with. Presumably Bob B’s ‘left’ didn’t mean retirement, or could have referred to another RB?

Nick Turner

North Western – Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT – VDB 913 – 913

North Western Leyland Leopard  & Leyland Tiger Cub

North Western Road Car 
1962
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT
Alexander DP49F

This bus was one of the first batch of 36 foot vehicles that North Western acquired. Seen here with LDB 787 fleet number 787 a 1960 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/1 with a Willowbrook duel purpose 43 seat body at the Shay football ground Halifax (I don’t think Halifax were playing Manchester United at the time).

There are still two Leopards going in Llandudno working around the Great Orme they are WND 477 which is a Duple Britannia new to Smiths then went on to Shearing’s then with Alpines. There is also an Harrington Grenadier as well, history not known.

Anonymous

20/02/11 – 06:43

1. What’s a Leopard doing on the Tiger Cub page ??
2. The WND coach working in Llandudno is definitely a Tiger Cub, not a Leopard

Paul Statham

21/02/11 – 14:55

The last I heard this vehicle was preserved although it’s not seen in public very often. Does anybody know its current status?

Neville Mercer

North Western – Leyland Tiger Cub – LDB 709 – 709


Copyright John Smith

North Western Road Car
1957
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2T
Burlingham C41F

Awhile ago the above photo was sent to me with the following comment.

I wondered if this picture of a North Western coach taken on the A5085 Blackpool Road, Lea, Preston heading towards/away from Blackpool (see comments) would interest you? My dad (Jack Smith) was a Police Sergeant and is driving the Lancashire Constabulary MGA in the picture. I think it would be 1962.

Well you don’t have to ask twice when there is a Seagull in the shot, especially one in full flight. I don’t think the coach was the purpose of the shot maybe it was taken from another MGA police car. I am not certain of the Mark number of the Seagull but researching through Neville Mercers great article ‘Burlingham’s flock of Seagulls’ I’m going plum for a Mark 5 with the optional roof box display. The reasons are, the year, a one piece windscreen (no horizontal crossbar) and slim side window pillars, I think I will soon find out if I am wrong.

Photograph and Part Copy contributed by John Smith


01/04/12 – 09:22

Yes, it’s a Mark Five – numbers of this batch also served in blue and cream with NWRCC subsidiaries Melba Motors and Altrincham Coachways. North Western’s earlier flock of Seagulls (with FDB registrations) were Mark Fours and some of these also passed to Melba.

Neville Mercer


02/04/12 – 07:27

I don’t think it’s heading towards Blackpool though. Quite apart from the fact that it says Manchester on the blind, this appears to be the spot, looking towards Blackpool, which means the coach is heading towards Manchester. //g.co/maps/t3dq2

Peter Williamson


12/04/12 – 06:05

It looks like the location is Blackpool Road (A5085) approaching the Pedders Lane junction at Ashton, Preston. The two bungalows behind the vehicle are the giveaway.

Mike


29/06/15 – 06:53

This is before the last bus stop before the traffic lights at Lea, the police station is opposite, we used to live in the first bungalow. Happy times

R Cooper


02/04/22 – 05:43

Thanks for all the information in the comments! I had to laugh that in my message to the group (when I sent the photo), that I queried if the destination was Blackpool or Manchester! Maybe I was thinking the conductor hadn’t changed it from Blackpool for the return journey.

John Smith

North Western – Leyland Tiger Cub – FDB 586 – 586A


Stephen Howarth collection

North Western Road Car Co
1955
Leyland Tiger Cub PCUC1/1
Weymann B44F

FDB 586 a Leyland Tiger Cub was new to North Western RCC in 1955.
It was converted, along with the rest of the batch to OMO in 1958/9, as denoted by the ‘A’ suffix after the fleet number.
586 is shown here (in rather a grubby state) working the 1 hour 36 minute duration Service 65 from Ashbourne to Buxton. The picture was taken outside the Devonshire Arms Hotel in the picturesque Derbyshire village of Hartington, a view which has changed little over the years. There was still over 50 minutes to go before it reaches the end of the journey in Buxton Market Place.
It was withdrawn in 1968, and passed to Worth’s Motor Service Enstone, Oxfordshire.


Stephen Howarth collection

Taken from their website “Worth’s were established in 1922 in the village of Enstone by Thomas (Dickie) Edmund Worth who started, like a lot of Bus and Coach Companies of that time by repairing motor bikes, bicycles and lawn mowers. He later progressed to running Ford Model T taxis’, and then on to Char-a-Bancs running day trips to the coast.”
This year the company will be celebrating 90 years in business and continues to be run by the Worth family with the motto still being well known as:- “For a rattling good ride”.
There website can be found at www.worthscoaches.co.uk
FDB 586 is shown here outside the Garage in Enstone.


Stephen Howarth collection

I have included a modern day picture of the premises, and as can be seen the garage building, unlike the fleet, has altered little.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

25/09/12 – 16:45

Purely from the “observer” point of view, Worth’s has always struck me as being one of the better operators. Others, of course, may feel or know otherwise! As for North Western, what can one say other than “R.I.P.”?

Pete Davies

25/09/12 – 18:57

Pete: yes and yes.

David Oldfield

26/09/12 – 07:07

The No. 65 doesn’t look overburdened with passengers does it? And to think, until the late 50s this route was paralleled by a railway line, whose stations, on the whole, were nowhere near the villages they purported to serve!

Stephen Ford

North Western – Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT – VDB 913 – 913

North Western Leyland Leopard  & Leyland Tiger Cub

North Western Road Car 
1962
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT
Alexander DP49F

This bus was one of the first batch of 36 foot vehicles that North Western acquired. Seen here with LDB 787 fleet number 787 a 1960 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/1 with a Willowbrook dual purpose 43 seat body at the Shay football ground Halifax (I don’t think Halifax were playing Manchester United at the time).

There are still two Leopards going in Llandudno working around the Great Orme they are WND 477 which is a Duple Britannia new to Smiths then went on to Shearing’s then with Alpines. There is also an Harrington Grenadier as well, history not known.

Anonymous

20/02/11 – 06:43

1. What’s a Leopard doing on the Tiger Cub page ??
2. The WND coach working in Llandudno is definitely a Tiger Cub, not a Leopard

Paul Statham

21/02/11 – 14:55

The last I heard this vehicle was preserved although it’s not seen in public very often. Does anybody know its current status?

Neville Mercer

North Western – Dennis Loline III – RDB 890 – 890

North Western Dennis Loline III

North Western Road Car
1961
Dennis Loline III
Alexander H39/32F

Not the best photographic shot in the world, taken on a very cold, misty winters day, but I think well worth showing. North Western mainly used single deckers on the X12 Manchester to Bradford route but on this day look what turned up. The radiator of the Dennis could have been improved with a bit of chrome or something, just looks a bit austere to me when compared to the Lodekka which this bus is a copy of, for a good example of how Bristol did it click here.

They tended to use double decks on the X12 on busy Saturday mornings, I often used to travel on the X12 at about 12:30 from Slitheroe Bridge, quite often there would be a Renown, sometimes duplicates and standing room only, YWD would supply Lowlanders on Saturdays. This would be mid 1960’s

Christopher


I have an anecdote which might explain the gloomy nature of the above image. In the early sixties I spent a Saturday evening in Manchester at the Granada TV studios. It started raining before we left Bradford, on the moors the rain was horizontal and driven by the ferocious winds for which those parts were/are famous. On our return police informed us that we had to detour VIA SHEFIELD as there was a wash-out on the Halifax road.
The next day I was in Chester Street (Bradford) bus station when a North Western Loline III arrived from Manchester. I took the Loline on its return journey out of curiosity to know how the wash-out had been bridged.
Overnight a Bailey bridge had been laid across the gap to ensure that the road was closed for less than 24 hours. Bear in mind that there was no M62 in those days.
This was a unique journey for me as the weather was very much as depicted in the image What was more significant for me was that this was the only time I recall doing the journey on a double decker.

Charles


With regards to the use of double deckers on service X12 [Manchester- Bradford]. The service was run during the week by Yorkshire Woollen using single deckers. At the weekend two Daimler Fleetlines would be borrowed from West Riding at Belle Isle depot Wakefield as there was a heavy passenger demand mainly immigrants seeing their families in Oldham.

Philip Carlton


Phillip,
To what era are you referring above?
I ask because I do not recall the prodigious use of ‘deckers on the X12 in the early sixties. Perhaps your memories are from NBC days because you mention West Riding and YWD.
My main interest lay in the exotica from the other side of the Pennines that was placed on this service.
North Western indulged my love of AECs by providing one of its famous DP Reliances.  These were exotic to my mind because of the dark red and black livery on their Alexander bodies. The livery certainly stood out  on the stand in Chester Street bus station along side those with which I was more familiar.
I understand that one was repatriated for preservation some time ago. Does anyone have news of its whereabouts and current preservation status.

Charles


I remember one Saturday in the 1960s when a sizeable fleet of duplicates came over the Pennines on the X12, bringing footie fans to Manchester. I have no idea what the match was, but the buses were (I kid you not) Yorkshire Woollen PS1 double deck rebuilds!

Peter Williamson


That explains a lot this was probably a one off footy special It certainly was not a regular event as most licenses for football excursions were held by Wallace Arnold.
I can state categorically that North Western operated on he X12. It was a route shared with at least one other company (YWD?) maybe two. I doubt that West Riding operated on the service during the early sixties because it was still a private company.
The sighting of a WR bus suggests to me that this took place during the birth pangs of The National Bus company when things that might have been considered worthy of comment a few years before became commonplace.

Charles


I am left a little baffled by Charles’s reference to black and red painted Alexander bodywork. North Western’s famous “black top” dual purpose livery was first applied to a batch of Weymann bodied Reliances in 1957 and then to further Reliances and Tiger Cubs with Willowbrook bodywork in 1958-61. No Alexander bodied vehicle ever wore this livery. The repatriated survivor referred to is Willowbrook bodied Tiger Cub LDB 796 which spent some time in Belgium before being brought back to the UK by Stephen Morris of Rexquote/Quantock fame. He later sold it to two gentlemen in the North of England who are members of the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Group and the bus is often to be found at rallies parked next to their Ribble machines.
I last saw it yesterday at the British Commercial Vehicle Museum’s Leyland Homecoming event and it always warms my heart. Back in its service days it ran from Wilmslow depot for a while and was often to be found on the 97 route from Altrincham to Macclesfield. At that time the A538 road crossed the main runway at Manchester Airport with a “level crossing” type barrier in use to prevent conflict between landing airliners and road traffic! What I’d give for a photograph of this.
Sorry, I’m waxing nostalgic at far too great of a length….

Neville Mercer


North Western’s famous black-top Reliances were bodied by Weymann and Willowbrook, not Alexander. They had high-backed bus seats but were treated as dual-purpose by North Western. The Alexander ones had coach seats and were painted in coach livery. One of the Willowbrook ones was my first ever experience of an AEC Reliance, and remains such a fond memory that it is the subject of the one and only model in my “collection” – RDB 871. I do believe a real one still exists, but not in a good state. However, a Tiger Cub with identical black-top Willowbrook body – LDB 796 – is currently active on the rally circuit, re-engined with an O400.

Peter Williamson


I am sorry to have confused you, Neville. I was Not really familiar with companies from the red rose county. I will insert the usual disclaimer about the passage of time clouding the memory banks but it is over forty years since I last used the X12.
As an all time AEC man the one thing that has not been obscured is the fact that the X12 was the longest route on which I could regularly ride on a Reliance. I was used to using Bristol/ECW buses on my home turf and I welcomed a ride on a black top because they had opulent interiors compared with their Bristol counterparts. I always thought that a ride on a blacktop was the perfect start to a day’s bus spotting in Manchester.  The scenery en route was spectacular.

Charles


I have just Googled X12 Manchester-Bradford and have come up with a very interesting photopic presentation.
As well as images it contains a potted history of the route which confirms that the other operator WAS indeed, YWD.  It also confirms that West Riding vehicles could have been used as the NBC placed the two  companies under common management.
I had emigrated in 1969 so I missed out on all the hoo-ha surrounding NBC’s early days in the region. It came as a complete surprise to learn that Ribble took over operation of the route when North Western was subsumed into SELNEC PTE.

I hope this will  prompt more reminiscences of this fascinating route.

Charles


I have just been reading a short article on West Riding which appeared in the June 2007 edition of Bus And Coach Preservation p49-50.
You who were closer to to the scene at the time will realise that I have been again mistaken. It was YWD and the coaching arm of Hebble that NBC placed under Wet Riding management in 1970.  A year later the three fleets were renumbered into a common series making them effectively one company albeit with three fleet names.
This would  be a logical explanation for the appearance off WR Fleetlines on the X1 although I initially wondered why Hebble coaches were not used on such a long route. Maybe Fleetlines were used because of their higher seating capacity.

Charles


As the owner of the Fotopic site referred to above I thank you for your comments and I find the memories of the service of great interest.
The very wet weather referred to in one of the earlier comments was probably that which washed away the road at Denshaw in 1964 and did indeed result in the construction of a Bailey Bridge. There is a picture of the bridge in that same Saddleworth Buses gallery under the Oldham to Denshaw service. I remember the bridge well since it was the first time I had come across such a bridge.
Both Yorkshire Woollen and West Riding double-deckers appeared on the service in later days and I have photos of both to add to the gallery as time permits.  In the early sixties both Yorkshire Woollen and North Western used double-deckers on the service at busy times. I remember seeing one of North Westerns KDB-series PD2s broken down opposite the Golden Fleece just outside Denshaw.

David Beilby


29/08/11 – 16:22

Were local fares available on the X12? I imagine there were minimum fares from both Manchester and Bradford, but what about Halifax and Oldham?

Geoff Kerr

It think it was a Limited Stop Service, my wife used it quite a lot from Halifax to Rishworth and Rishworth to Manchester, someone will know more details I’m sure Geoff.

Peter


30/08/11 – 08:10

Please David, is your Fotopic site one of those involved in the sudden demise of Fotopic ?? I ask because, without any warning at all, I lost all the hard work I’d put into mine – there have been various vague promises that it is to be revived under new ownership and that all material is safe but I still fear that mine has gone – a salutary lesson in the folly of not backing up important material.

Chris Youhill


01/09/11 – 07:48

Chris, the Fotopic page (//www.fotopic.net/) states that all submitted material is safe, so, hopefully, all your valuable work is recoverable, though it is unclear what happens next. I haven’t used Fotopic myself, but numerous enthusiasts who have must be decidedly concerned about the future.


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


04/04/13 – 15:57

I remember the first time I used the X12 to Bradford. The vehicle was Loline 906 which strange to relate is modelled as an X12! This was Saturday August 5th 1967. Once out of Grains Bar it stopped at every request stop. Although NW listed X12 in reality like so many NW and Ribble as “Express’s” but operated only as an express mainly in the Manchester area and then became a local service. I also recall Hebble on the service around 1969/1970 and they even used Regent Vs.

Ralph Oakes-Garnett

North Western – Dennis Loline III – RDB 892 – 892


Copyright Roger Cox

North Western Road Car
1961
Dennis Loline III
Alexander H39/32F

This picture, taken on a Saturday in the summer of 1966, shows Dennis Loline III No 892 of North Western turning from Commercial Street into George Street, Halifax, on its trans Pennine X12 run from Bradford to Manchester. Double deckers were often used on Saturdays on this service, and the Loline was easily the most appropriate decker for the purpose in the North Western fleet at the time. I never saw an AEC Renown on this service, and I doubt that, with its four speed gearbox and high ratio rear axle (reputedly giving a 48 mph maximum speed – almost as fast as a Loline) it would have been very suited, though they might have been used. However, the Loline, with its exceptional stability, 6LX engine and five speed gearbox, was ideal for the job. I took several trips across to Manchester on these buses, and they were fine performers on this taxing route. Later that year, on leaving Halifax, I drove the 6LW powered versions of the Loline for Aldershot & District, and found them to be most impressive buses. Had Dennis been more consistent in marketing the Loline – it was forever being withdrawn from their catalogue and then subsequently reinstated, North Western might never have taken the Renown, though BET central purchasing policies might have been the ultimate decider.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


02/06/11 – 05:59

Lovely photograph Roger. As a lifelong fan of Bristol products, I also had a soft spot for the Dennis Loline – being in effect a Lodekka built under licence for the open market. I must admit to preferring East Lancashire or Northern Counties bodywork on the Loline, as Alexander’s ‘balloon roof’ style, although not unattractive, appeared somewhat top heavy to many. That said, the nicely proportioned North Western livery did its best to distract the eye, and it is interesting to note from the photo that the company had specified sliding doors rather than jack knife ones. The Northern Counties-bodied Loline IIIs purchased by Halifax JOC looked particularly attractive in that undertaking’s green, cream and orange livery. Some of the last Loline III’s (including the Halifax ones) had Bristol rear axles, with some even sporting Bristol scrolls on the hubs, but whether the Halifax vehicles had the latter feature I do not know. Dennis did seem a little inconsistent to say the least with their marketing, as you state Roger. Mind you there was also added low-height competition from AEC’s Bridgemaster and Renown, plus the Albion/Leyland Lowlander around the time the Loline was trying to establish itself, which may have had a bearing on things.

Brendan Smith


03/06/11 – 07:29

I agree with your comments, Brendan. The Loline I was a very close copy of the Lodekka – I believe that the Loline displayed at the 1956 Commercial Show was, in fact, a Lodekka with cosmetic alterations by Dennis. The genuine Loline I did have Dennis clutch, gearbox and front axle, and full air braking system – the Lodekka had air/hydraulic brakes – and the mechanically very similar Loline II, which had a forward entrance, appeared before the FLF/FSF Lodekka, though it is probable that Dennis and Bristol shared their design ideas on the concept. The Loline III, which generally had a Dennis rear axle, was much more of a Dennis design, and, having driven conventional transmission Lolines I and III, and LD and FLF Lodekkas, I found the Loline III to have been the nicest of them all. In particular, the Dennis five speed gearbox was very light and easy to use, and the gear positions followed the gate format popularised by the AEC Reliance – R and 1 at the far left and protected by a detente spring (the Reliance had a ledge and the gearstick had to be lifted) then 2,3,4 and 5 in a straightforward H pattern. The Lodekka gearbox was heavier to use, and had 1,2,3 and 4 in the H pattern, and 5 could be engaged only through 4 by moving the gear lever to the right and then forward. If one’s progress was baulked for any reason whilst in fifth, then one had to wrestle the lever back through fourth to reach neutral and the other gears. Whereas 5th was treated as a normal cruising speed even on town work with the Loline, Lodekka drivers seldom went above 4th except where the open road beckoned. The Loline I also had 1,2,3 and 4 in the H pattern, and 5th was engaged by moving the gear lever forward to neutral and then to the right and back again in a U movement. This did enable neutral to be reached directly from fifth. The Halifax Lolines did have Bristol rear axles and were so marked on the hubs. Sadly, I had left my job in the Traffic Office at HPTD Skircoat Road in 1966, and those Lolines arrived the following year, so I never got a chance to drive these fine semi auto machines. By that time I was driving the Aldershot & District examples, all of which had sliding passenger doors. I have a number of other Loline pictures which I will submit in due course. As you have pointed out, the operator’s livery could transform the appearance of a bus body. When Aldershot and District was merged with Thames Valley, the initial overall maroon livery of Alder Valley made the Alexander and Weymann Orion bodies look truly awful. As for the standard NBC livery…………!!!!!

Roger Cox


03/06/11 – 17:10

I agree entirely with your view on the advantages of a sympathetic livery Roger. The much maligned appearance of the MCW Orion and siblings – which incidentally I always liked as clean, smart and functional – was made to look positively immaculate by the Bradford City Transport blue and cream scheme.
I’ve found out much of interest from this Loline topic – I’ve always laboured under the misapprehension that the Loline differed little other than in badging and engine etc from the Lodekka – one’s never too old to learn !!

Chris Youhill


03/06/11 – 17:34

At the risk of being boring, I couldn’t agree more with the positive comments on the Loline, Chris’s comments on the Orion and the general comments on livery and its effects on the looks of a vehicle. It was good that the Lodekka was available outside BTC in this form. (Sheffield’s Orions didn’t look bad either.)
I have to say, though, that I still prefer the Renown – but then I would say that, wouldn’t I? [I regularly rode both down the Oxford and Palatine Roads in Manchester as a student.]

David Oldfield


08/06/11 – 09:50

Reading Corporation had three batches of Dennis Loline IIIs, arriving in autumn 62, summer 64 and late 66/early 67. They carried handsome East Lancs bodywork and had derated Gardner 6LX engines. The first batch had Dennis-built 4-speed gearbox, which seemed to challenge some of the Corpo drivers, cosseted as they were by the nice forgiving gearboxes fitted to the Regent II and IIIs and the Crossleys. A missed gear gave forth not so much a crunch as a resounding clang, often heard when engaging second from rest—something that made me wonder whether they had no clutch-stop. All hubs bore the Dennis name.
The later batches had a Bristol plate on the rear hubs only, and a Bristol 5-speed gearbox with 5th blanked off! Yet even without the potential for extra fuel-saving that a live 5th would have afforded, the Lolines managed over 13 mpg in this fairly hilly town. A few years back I had a drive of 76, a preserved survivor of the last batch (now with 5th UNblocked) and it was a real delight. The first two batches were withdrawn after only 12 years’ service: I hate to think how many excellent vehicle countrywide were swept off the road by the abolition of conductors!
In Classic Bus No 22 (April-May 1996) Gavin Booth and Stephen Morris compare a Renown, a Loline and a Lodekka. With all due respect to David O and all AEC enthusiasts, the Dennis Loline acquits itself very well.

Ian Thompson


08/06/2011 09:52

What excellent liveries we used to have in BET days. Fleets had a real sense of identity. There were a number of Red and Cream BET fleets but there were subtle differences in colour and layout between three contiguous BET Companies – North Western, PMT and Trent. Each was appealing in its own way. Sadly we lost it all in the Corporate blandness of NBC and as for today’s “liveries” – well the less said the better. No identity – just Multi National imposition.

Ian Wild


09/06/11 – 08:29

Not offended, Ian T, I’m sure it did acquit itself very well. I know no-one with half a brain who would denigrate either the Lodekka or the Loline.

…..not to mention Yorkshire Traction.

David Oldfield


13/03/12 – 06:09

I read that Dennis only went looking for bus orders when their other lines were having a lean time in sales, much preferring fire engines and other things than building buses. Also, as with Daimler, they took Cummins when Gardner were hard to come by and that cost them so much it effectively made them give up on commercial vehicles. Daimler took a big hit too with the Roadliner. If only, Cummins had made a better engine or Gardner had better supply! I read the comment of Mr Hilditch, GM of Halifax where he found Dennis to be the best engineered product he had come across.

John (tee)


30/11/12 – 13:21

Following up Ian Thompson’s comment above of 08/06/11, my experiences of driving the Reading buses he mentions were slightly different. I found the Regent III box less forgiving than he suggests, but it was at least consistent, so you only had yourself to blame if you got it wrong. The Dennis 4-speed boxes were far more forgiving; the gears more or less found themselves and you could almost forget about the clutch. As Ian surmises, they had no clutch stop, but there was no excuse for clashing the gears when pulling away. The options were straightforward. If you were only making a short stop, you simply dropped the stick into 2nd as you came to a stand. If you had to stop in neutral, it only required a bit of patience to drop the clutch and wait a bit; ideally you anticipated the conductor’s bell. You were never going to get a racing start anyway, as the accelerator pedal was fitted with a mechanical interlock which only released once the doors had closed. The Bristol box did have a clutch stop, and for someone like myself with long legs it was all too easy to depress the clutch a bit too far and then you really were in trouble. These buses were never so well liked as the earlier batch, as the lack of the 5th gear significantly reduced the top speed – 35mph at best compared with the over 40mph of the earlier ones.

Alan Murray-Rust


30/11/12 – 17:39

Alan, I agree entirely with your assessment of the relative merits of the Dennis and Bristol gearboxes. I didn’t drive the Reading Lolines, but I had extensive experience of the Aldershot and District Mark 1 and Mark III machines, and also occasionally drove Bristol FLFs. The A&D Lolines had Dennis five speed gearboxes, without clutch stops, and they were, without doubt, the finest constant mesh boxes that I have ever handled. They responded to a light touch – you could engage gear cleanly with the pressure of two fingers on the gear lever – and any crunching noises were a testament to sloppy driving practice, not engineering deficiency. The Bristol box was heavier and stiffer in its lever action, making neat engagement of gears more difficult to accomplish. The four speed Dennis box, coupled with the Dennis axle, had properly spaced ratios for a decent top speed in fourth. The five speed boxes, Dennis and Bristol, gave a top speed of around 30 mph in fourth (direct) gear, and the overdrive fifth brought top speed up to around 50 mph. Thus, a Bristol five speed gearbox with the overdrive blanked off would have limited road speed to 30 mph. I have commented above that, because of the gate layout and ease of using the Dennis five speed box, Loline drivers used fifth gear as a normal cruising ratio. The fifth gear on the Bristol was engaged in a contorted “dog leg” action through fourth, and getting the gearstick back into neutral and the other gears could be something of a struggle if the bus was baulked for any reason. In practice, Lodekka drivers only used fifth when faced with a clear, open road, and generally never went above fourth in urban settings. The Loline III was much more than a licence built Lodekka. It was a rather nicer machine in many respects. I cannot understand why Reading specified Bristol gearboxes and axles on its 1964 Lolines. Aldershot was taking Loline deliveries at the same time, and these had Dennis units throughout. Later, when Loline production was drawing down, the Dennis company used Bristol transmission components instead of manufacturing penny numbers of its own axles/gearboxes (the Halifax Lolines had Bristol rear axles also). This would explain the use of Bristol components in the last batch of 1966, but not in the 1964 buses. The small Dennis company had high engineering standards. As an example, the O4/O6 engines were the only British production diesels to have four valves per cylinder, and they incorporated timing gears at the back of the block and wet cylinder liners, all achieved in a powerful, entirely trouble free design. Other engine manufacturers who tried to incorporate such features didn’t entirely succeed.

Roger Cox


20/10/13 – 07:26

Very interesting reading, folks. Thanks so much for the good information. I do have a question, though, and one which I have been totally unable to resolve.
Was the sliding door on the Loline manually operated, or was it powered? I travelled on Lolines in Liverpool (Crosville), but cannot remember if the door opened automatically, or had to be opened by hand.

Terry Hill, Ottawa


20/10/13 – 11:08

Terry, the doors on these buses were air pressure operated, usually by the driver, but the conductor had a control to use if required. I drove the Aldershot & District Alexander bodied Lolines which, apart from having the 6LW engine instead of the 6LX, and 68 rather than 71 seats, were otherwise identical. Fine buses!

Roger Cox


20/10/13 – 11:09

The doors were powered. On North Western’s batches they all gave trouble sticking from time to time and sometimes wouldn’t close when climbing a steep hill, especially in later life. The main problem with them as time went on, particularly with the North Western Alexander bodied batch, was the door would start from open and, as long as the vehicle was on a relatively flat road or heading down hill, would accelerate hitting the front door post with a loud bang instead of travelling at a constant pace and slowing as it reached the closed position as the manufacturer had intended.
Considering the short distance the door had to travel the noise and the eventual damage caused was quite spectacular. The door, the door post and the mechanism all deteriorated, the results being sticking doors, damage to the frame around the door post, distorted doors and at least one instance of a door falling off as related by Peter Caunt in his book North Western – A Drivers Reminiscences.
In fact to quote him on the speed of the doors makes the point:
“This does not really describe adequately the speed at which the door closed or the terror that it inspired in those around it. What happened was the door would be open and the driver would move the lever to the closed position. For a couple of seconds nothing would happen then the door would close like lightning and would knock the hell out of the front corner pillar of the bodywork….when the door was opened it often moved sedately and correctly as though trying to inspire passengers with its genteel behaviour. The fact that it almost pushed the front off the bus when it closed is neither here nor there.”

Phil Blinkhorn


20/10/13 – 17:09

Phil, the doors on the Aldershot Lolines would sometimes hit the front door pillar with a bit of a bump, but nothing worse, and (pre NBC) booking this off as a defect always got the thing sorted out. The system was designed to cushion the closing and opening action at a point just short of the end of the door travel, and the last part of the motion was completed at very slow speed. The problems you mention must have arisen from sloppy maintenance or shortage of spares or over tight engineering budgets, or a combination of all three (welcome to the world of the present day big groups).

Roger Cox


20/10/13 – 18:07

The ex Ribble Burlingham bodied PD3s at Southend suffered from the same symptoms as mentioned above. The crews referred to them as Bacon Slicers.

Philip Carlton


21/10/13 – 07:13

Crosville did not operate Lolines in Liverpool, unless an odd ex-North Western Road Car example slipped in under the radar from Warrington.
Crosville (in Liverpool) operated lots of Bristol Lodekkas (FSF & FLF) with front 4-leaf powered doors and lots of Bristol Lodekkas (LD and FS) with rear 2-leaf manual doors.

Dave Farrier


21/10/13 – 17:45

Could be from Warrington. I travelled regularly between Liverpool and Prescot. That route was served by both Crosville and Liverpool Corporation Passenger Transport. LCPT buses, which were unheated at that time, were known on the route as “Corpy ice-boxes”; it was worth the extra couple of pennies to ride on a heated bus in the Winter!
Thank you, gentlemen, one and all, for your information (and your anecdotes). My Dennis Loline is actually a 1/76 scale model, and is an exhibit in my fictitious “Heathersfield Rail/Road Museum” which I am developing as part of an “00” gauge model railway layout. I am currently writing an extensive catalogue of exhibits, and I want to make sure that the information contained therein is as accurate as I can make it (as a retired technical writer, I’m a bit obsessive about accuracy).
My model (made by Britbus) is in SELNEC Southern livery, has fleet number 889 and the licence plate number is RDB 889. If anyone has any information specific to this bus (the real one!), technical, historic or anecdotal, I would be very interested to hear about it.

Terry Hill


29/10/13 – 13:22

Terry, a picture of RDB 889 may be found here:- www.flickr.com/photos/1  A very sad looking ex NWRCC Loline after disposal by Crosville is shown here:- www.flickr.com/photos/2

Roger Cox


30/10/13 – 17:26

Loline RDB 889 had chassis number 1019L3AF2B1 and Alexander body number 6681. It was one of those equipped with the five speed gearbox and was delivered to North Western in December 1961.

Roger Cox


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


28/07/17 – 16:31

I know this subject is a few years old now but I have only just found your interesting website, I drove both types of Lolines at Reading and agree with Alan Murray-Rust about the 4 speed Lolines being easier to change gear than the 5 speed version. If you didn’t engage 2nd gear as soon as you stopped at a bus stop it was hard to engage after idling in neutral. They were confined to the busy 15 and 25 routes when I drove them which were converted to OMO a few years later using brand new Scalia Metropolitans which were like Rolls Royces after the Lolines.

Ray Hunt