North Western Road Car 1961 Dennis Loline III Alexander H39/32F
Not the best photographic shot in the world, taken on a very cold, misty winters day, but I think well worth showing. North Western mainly used single deckers on the X12 Manchester to Bradford route but on this day look what turned up. The radiator of the Dennis could have been improved with a bit of chrome or something, just looks a bit austere to me when compared to the Lodekka which this bus is a copy of, for a good example of how Bristol did it click here.
They tended to use double decks on the X12 on busy Saturday mornings, I often used to travel on the X12 at about 12:30 from Slitheroe Bridge, quite often there would be a Renown, sometimes duplicates and standing room only, YWD would supply Lowlanders on Saturdays. This would be mid 1960’s
Christopher
I have an anecdote which might explain the gloomy nature of the above image. In the early sixties I spent a Saturday evening in Manchester at the Granada TV studios. It started raining before we left Bradford, on the moors the rain was horizontal and driven by the ferocious winds for which those parts were/are famous. On our return police informed us that we had to detour VIA SHEFIELD as there was a wash-out on the Halifax road. The next day I was in Chester Street (Bradford) bus station when a North Western Loline III arrived from Manchester. I took the Loline on its return journey out of curiosity to know how the wash-out had been bridged. Overnight a Bailey bridge had been laid across the gap to ensure that the road was closed for less than 24 hours. Bear in mind that there was no M62 in those days. This was a unique journey for me as the weather was very much as depicted in the image What was more significant for me was that this was the only time I recall doing the journey on a double decker.
Charles
With regards to the use of double deckers on service X12 [Manchester- Bradford]. The service was run during the week by Yorkshire Woollen using single deckers. At the weekend two Daimler Fleetlines would be borrowed from West Riding at Belle Isle depot Wakefield as there was a heavy passenger demand mainly immigrants seeing their families in Oldham.
Philip Carlton
Phillip, To what era are you referring above? I ask because I do not recall the prodigious use of ‘deckers on the X12 in the early sixties. Perhaps your memories are from NBC days because you mention West Riding and YWD. My main interest lay in the exotica from the other side of the Pennines that was placed on this service. North Western indulged my love of AECs by providing one of its famous DP Reliances. These were exotic to my mind because of the dark red and black livery on their Alexander bodies. The livery certainly stood out on the stand in Chester Street bus station along side those with which I was more familiar. I understand that one was repatriated for preservation some time ago. Does anyone have news of its whereabouts and current preservation status.
Charles
I remember one Saturday in the 1960s when a sizeable fleet of duplicates came over the Pennines on the X12, bringing footie fans to Manchester. I have no idea what the match was, but the buses were (I kid you not) Yorkshire Woollen PS1 double deck rebuilds!
Peter Williamson
That explains a lot this was probably a one off footy special It certainly was not a regular event as most licenses for football excursions were held by Wallace Arnold. I can state categorically that North Western operated on he X12. It was a route shared with at least one other company (YWD?) maybe two. I doubt that West Riding operated on the service during the early sixties because it was still a private company. The sighting of a WR bus suggests to me that this took place during the birth pangs of The National Bus company when things that might have been considered worthy of comment a few years before became commonplace.
Charles
I am left a little baffled by Charles’s reference to black and red painted Alexander bodywork. North Western’s famous “black top” dual purpose livery was first applied to a batch of Weymann bodied Reliances in 1957 and then to further Reliances and Tiger Cubs with Willowbrook bodywork in 1958-61. No Alexander bodied vehicle ever wore this livery. The repatriated survivor referred to is Willowbrook bodied Tiger Cub LDB 796 which spent some time in Belgium before being brought back to the UK by Stephen Morris of Rexquote/Quantock fame. He later sold it to two gentlemen in the North of England who are members of the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Group and the bus is often to be found at rallies parked next to their Ribble machines. I last saw it yesterday at the British Commercial Vehicle Museum’s Leyland Homecoming event and it always warms my heart. Back in its service days it ran from Wilmslow depot for a while and was often to be found on the 97 route from Altrincham to Macclesfield. At that time the A538 road crossed the main runway at Manchester Airport with a “level crossing” type barrier in use to prevent conflict between landing airliners and road traffic! What I’d give for a photograph of this. Sorry, I’m waxing nostalgic at far too great of a length….
Neville Mercer
North Western’s famous black-top Reliances were bodied by Weymann and Willowbrook, not Alexander. They had high-backed bus seats but were treated as dual-purpose by North Western. The Alexander ones had coach seats and were painted in coach livery. One of the Willowbrook ones was my first ever experience of an AEC Reliance, and remains such a fond memory that it is the subject of the one and only model in my “collection” – RDB 871. I do believe a real one still exists, but not in a good state. However, a Tiger Cub with identical black-top Willowbrook body – LDB 796 – is currently active on the rally circuit, re-engined with an O400.
Peter Williamson
I am sorry to have confused you, Neville. I was Not really familiar with companies from the red rose county. I will insert the usual disclaimer about the passage of time clouding the memory banks but it is over forty years since I last used the X12. As an all time AEC man the one thing that has not been obscured is the fact that the X12 was the longest route on which I could regularly ride on a Reliance. I was used to using Bristol/ECW buses on my home turf and I welcomed a ride on a black top because they had opulent interiors compared with their Bristol counterparts. I always thought that a ride on a blacktop was the perfect start to a day’s bus spotting in Manchester. The scenery en route was spectacular.
Charles
I have just Googled X12 Manchester-Bradford and have come up with a very interesting photopic presentation. As well as images it contains a potted history of the route which confirms that the other operator WAS indeed, YWD. It also confirms that West Riding vehicles could have been used as the NBC placed the two companies under common management. I had emigrated in 1969 so I missed out on all the hoo-ha surrounding NBC’s early days in the region. It came as a complete surprise to learn that Ribble took over operation of the route when North Western was subsumed into SELNEC PTE.
I hope this will prompt more reminiscences of this fascinating route.
Charles
I have just been reading a short article on West Riding which appeared in the June 2007 edition of Bus And Coach Preservation p49-50. You who were closer to to the scene at the time will realise that I have been again mistaken. It was YWD and the coaching arm of Hebble that NBC placed under Wet Riding management in 1970. A year later the three fleets were renumbered into a common series making them effectively one company albeit with three fleet names. This would be a logical explanation for the appearance off WR Fleetlines on the X1 although I initially wondered why Hebble coaches were not used on such a long route. Maybe Fleetlines were used because of their higher seating capacity.
Charles
As the owner of the Fotopic site referred to above I thank you for your comments and I find the memories of the service of great interest. The very wet weather referred to in one of the earlier comments was probably that which washed away the road at Denshaw in 1964 and did indeed result in the construction of a Bailey Bridge. There is a picture of the bridge in that same Saddleworth Buses gallery under the Oldham to Denshaw service. I remember the bridge well since it was the first time I had come across such a bridge. Both Yorkshire Woollen and West Riding double-deckers appeared on the service in later days and I have photos of both to add to the gallery as time permits. In the early sixties both Yorkshire Woollen and North Western used double-deckers on the service at busy times. I remember seeing one of North Westerns KDB-series PD2s broken down opposite the Golden Fleece just outside Denshaw.
David Beilby
29/08/11 – 16:22
Were local fares available on the X12? I imagine there were minimum fares from both Manchester and Bradford, but what about Halifax and Oldham?
Geoff Kerr
It think it was a Limited Stop Service, my wife used it quite a lot from Halifax to Rishworth and Rishworth to Manchester, someone will know more details I’m sure Geoff.
Peter
30/08/11 – 08:10
Please David, is your Fotopic site one of those involved in the sudden demise of Fotopic ?? I ask because, without any warning at all, I lost all the hard work I’d put into mine – there have been various vague promises that it is to be revived under new ownership and that all material is safe but I still fear that mine has gone – a salutary lesson in the folly of not backing up important material.
Chris Youhill
01/09/11 – 07:48
Chris, the Fotopic page (//www.fotopic.net/) states that all submitted material is safe, so, hopefully, all your valuable work is recoverable, though it is unclear what happens next. I haven’t used Fotopic myself, but numerous enthusiasts who have must be decidedly concerned about the future.
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/04/13 – 15:57
I remember the first time I used the X12 to Bradford. The vehicle was Loline 906 which strange to relate is modelled as an X12! This was Saturday August 5th 1967. Once out of Grains Bar it stopped at every request stop. Although NW listed X12 in reality like so many NW and Ribble as “Express’s” but operated only as an express mainly in the Manchester area and then became a local service. I also recall Hebble on the service around 1969/1970 and they even used Regent Vs.
North Western Road Car 1961 Dennis Loline III Alexander H39/32F
This picture, taken on a Saturday in the summer of 1966, shows Dennis Loline III No 892 of North Western turning from Commercial Street into George Street, Halifax, on its trans Pennine X12 run from Bradford to Manchester. Double deckers were often used on Saturdays on this service, and the Loline was easily the most appropriate decker for the purpose in the North Western fleet at the time. I never saw an AEC Renown on this service, and I doubt that, with its four speed gearbox and high ratio rear axle (reputedly giving a 48 mph maximum speed – almost as fast as a Loline) it would have been very suited, though they might have been used. However, the Loline, with its exceptional stability, 6LX engine and five speed gearbox, was ideal for the job. I took several trips across to Manchester on these buses, and they were fine performers on this taxing route. Later that year, on leaving Halifax, I drove the 6LW powered versions of the Loline for Aldershot & District, and found them to be most impressive buses. Had Dennis been more consistent in marketing the Loline – it was forever being withdrawn from their catalogue and then subsequently reinstated, North Western might never have taken the Renown, though BET central purchasing policies might have been the ultimate decider.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
02/06/11 – 05:59
Lovely photograph Roger. As a lifelong fan of Bristol products, I also had a soft spot for the Dennis Loline – being in effect a Lodekka built under licence for the open market. I must admit to preferring East Lancashire or Northern Counties bodywork on the Loline, as Alexander’s ‘balloon roof’ style, although not unattractive, appeared somewhat top heavy to many. That said, the nicely proportioned North Western livery did its best to distract the eye, and it is interesting to note from the photo that the company had specified sliding doors rather than jack knife ones. The Northern Counties-bodied Loline IIIs purchased by Halifax JOC looked particularly attractive in that undertaking’s green, cream and orange livery. Some of the last Loline III’s (including the Halifax ones) had Bristol rear axles, with some even sporting Bristol scrolls on the hubs, but whether the Halifax vehicles had the latter feature I do not know. Dennis did seem a little inconsistent to say the least with their marketing, as you state Roger. Mind you there was also added low-height competition from AEC’s Bridgemaster and Renown, plus the Albion/Leyland Lowlander around the time the Loline was trying to establish itself, which may have had a bearing on things.
Brendan Smith
03/06/11 – 07:29
I agree with your comments, Brendan. The Loline I was a very close copy of the Lodekka – I believe that the Loline displayed at the 1956 Commercial Show was, in fact, a Lodekka with cosmetic alterations by Dennis. The genuine Loline I did have Dennis clutch, gearbox and front axle, and full air braking system – the Lodekka had air/hydraulic brakes – and the mechanically very similar Loline II, which had a forward entrance, appeared before the FLF/FSF Lodekka, though it is probable that Dennis and Bristol shared their design ideas on the concept. The Loline III, which generally had a Dennis rear axle, was much more of a Dennis design, and, having driven conventional transmission Lolines I and III, and LD and FLF Lodekkas, I found the Loline III to have been the nicest of them all. In particular, the Dennis five speed gearbox was very light and easy to use, and the gear positions followed the gate format popularised by the AEC Reliance – R and 1 at the far left and protected by a detente spring (the Reliance had a ledge and the gearstick had to be lifted) then 2,3,4 and 5 in a straightforward H pattern. The Lodekka gearbox was heavier to use, and had 1,2,3 and 4 in the H pattern, and 5 could be engaged only through 4 by moving the gear lever to the right and then forward. If one’s progress was baulked for any reason whilst in fifth, then one had to wrestle the lever back through fourth to reach neutral and the other gears. Whereas 5th was treated as a normal cruising speed even on town work with the Loline, Lodekka drivers seldom went above 4th except where the open road beckoned. The Loline I also had 1,2,3 and 4 in the H pattern, and 5th was engaged by moving the gear lever forward to neutral and then to the right and back again in a U movement. This did enable neutral to be reached directly from fifth. The Halifax Lolines did have Bristol rear axles and were so marked on the hubs. Sadly, I had left my job in the Traffic Office at HPTD Skircoat Road in 1966, and those Lolines arrived the following year, so I never got a chance to drive these fine semi auto machines. By that time I was driving the Aldershot & District examples, all of which had sliding passenger doors. I have a number of other Loline pictures which I will submit in due course. As you have pointed out, the operator’s livery could transform the appearance of a bus body. When Aldershot and District was merged with Thames Valley, the initial overall maroon livery of Alder Valley made the Alexander and Weymann Orion bodies look truly awful. As for the standard NBC livery…………!!!!!
Roger Cox
03/06/11 – 17:10
I agree entirely with your view on the advantages of a sympathetic livery Roger. The much maligned appearance of the MCW Orion and siblings – which incidentally I always liked as clean, smart and functional – was made to look positively immaculate by the Bradford City Transport blue and cream scheme. I’ve found out much of interest from this Loline topic – I’ve always laboured under the misapprehension that the Loline differed little other than in badging and engine etc from the Lodekka – one’s never too old to learn !!
Chris Youhill
03/06/11 – 17:34
At the risk of being boring, I couldn’t agree more with the positive comments on the Loline, Chris’s comments on the Orion and the general comments on livery and its effects on the looks of a vehicle. It was good that the Lodekka was available outside BTC in this form. (Sheffield’s Orions didn’t look bad either.) I have to say, though, that I still prefer the Renown – but then I would say that, wouldn’t I? [I regularly rode both down the Oxford and Palatine Roads in Manchester as a student.]
David Oldfield
08/06/11 – 09:50
Reading Corporation had three batches of Dennis Loline IIIs, arriving in autumn 62, summer 64 and late 66/early 67. They carried handsome East Lancs bodywork and had derated Gardner 6LX engines. The first batch had Dennis-built 4-speed gearbox, which seemed to challenge some of the Corpo drivers, cosseted as they were by the nice forgiving gearboxes fitted to the Regent II and IIIs and the Crossleys. A missed gear gave forth not so much a crunch as a resounding clang, often heard when engaging second from rest—something that made me wonder whether they had no clutch-stop. All hubs bore the Dennis name. The later batches had a Bristol plate on the rear hubs only, and a Bristol 5-speed gearbox with 5th blanked off! Yet even without the potential for extra fuel-saving that a live 5th would have afforded, the Lolines managed over 13 mpg in this fairly hilly town. A few years back I had a drive of 76, a preserved survivor of the last batch (now with 5th UNblocked) and it was a real delight. The first two batches were withdrawn after only 12 years’ service: I hate to think how many excellent vehicle countrywide were swept off the road by the abolition of conductors! In Classic Bus No 22 (April-May 1996) Gavin Booth and Stephen Morris compare a Renown, a Loline and a Lodekka. With all due respect to David O and all AEC enthusiasts, the Dennis Loline acquits itself very well.
Ian Thompson
08/06/2011 09:52
What excellent liveries we used to have in BET days. Fleets had a real sense of identity. There were a number of Red and Cream BET fleets but there were subtle differences in colour and layout between three contiguous BET Companies – North Western, PMT and Trent. Each was appealing in its own way. Sadly we lost it all in the Corporate blandness of NBC and as for today’s “liveries” – well the less said the better. No identity – just Multi National imposition.
Ian Wild
09/06/11 – 08:29
Not offended, Ian T, I’m sure it did acquit itself very well. I know no-one with half a brain who would denigrate either the Lodekka or the Loline.
…..not to mention Yorkshire Traction.
David Oldfield
13/03/12 – 06:09
I read that Dennis only went looking for bus orders when their other lines were having a lean time in sales, much preferring fire engines and other things than building buses. Also, as with Daimler, they took Cummins when Gardner were hard to come by and that cost them so much it effectively made them give up on commercial vehicles. Daimler took a big hit too with the Roadliner. If only, Cummins had made a better engine or Gardner had better supply! I read the comment of Mr Hilditch, GM of Halifax where he found Dennis to be the best engineered product he had come across.
John (tee)
30/11/12 – 13:21
Following up Ian Thompson’s comment above of 08/06/11, my experiences of driving the Reading buses he mentions were slightly different. I found the Regent III box less forgiving than he suggests, but it was at least consistent, so you only had yourself to blame if you got it wrong. The Dennis 4-speed boxes were far more forgiving; the gears more or less found themselves and you could almost forget about the clutch. As Ian surmises, they had no clutch stop, but there was no excuse for clashing the gears when pulling away. The options were straightforward. If you were only making a short stop, you simply dropped the stick into 2nd as you came to a stand. If you had to stop in neutral, it only required a bit of patience to drop the clutch and wait a bit; ideally you anticipated the conductor’s bell. You were never going to get a racing start anyway, as the accelerator pedal was fitted with a mechanical interlock which only released once the doors had closed. The Bristol box did have a clutch stop, and for someone like myself with long legs it was all too easy to depress the clutch a bit too far and then you really were in trouble. These buses were never so well liked as the earlier batch, as the lack of the 5th gear significantly reduced the top speed – 35mph at best compared with the over 40mph of the earlier ones.
Alan Murray-Rust
30/11/12 – 17:39
Alan, I agree entirely with your assessment of the relative merits of the Dennis and Bristol gearboxes. I didn’t drive the Reading Lolines, but I had extensive experience of the Aldershot and District Mark 1 and Mark III machines, and also occasionally drove Bristol FLFs. The A&D Lolines had Dennis five speed gearboxes, without clutch stops, and they were, without doubt, the finest constant mesh boxes that I have ever handled. They responded to a light touch – you could engage gear cleanly with the pressure of two fingers on the gear lever – and any crunching noises were a testament to sloppy driving practice, not engineering deficiency. The Bristol box was heavier and stiffer in its lever action, making neat engagement of gears more difficult to accomplish. The four speed Dennis box, coupled with the Dennis axle, had properly spaced ratios for a decent top speed in fourth. The five speed boxes, Dennis and Bristol, gave a top speed of around 30 mph in fourth (direct) gear, and the overdrive fifth brought top speed up to around 50 mph. Thus, a Bristol five speed gearbox with the overdrive blanked off would have limited road speed to 30 mph. I have commented above that, because of the gate layout and ease of using the Dennis five speed box, Loline drivers used fifth gear as a normal cruising ratio. The fifth gear on the Bristol was engaged in a contorted “dog leg” action through fourth, and getting the gearstick back into neutral and the other gears could be something of a struggle if the bus was baulked for any reason. In practice, Lodekka drivers only used fifth when faced with a clear, open road, and generally never went above fourth in urban settings. The Loline III was much more than a licence built Lodekka. It was a rather nicer machine in many respects. I cannot understand why Reading specified Bristol gearboxes and axles on its 1964 Lolines. Aldershot was taking Loline deliveries at the same time, and these had Dennis units throughout. Later, when Loline production was drawing down, the Dennis company used Bristol transmission components instead of manufacturing penny numbers of its own axles/gearboxes (the Halifax Lolines had Bristol rear axles also). This would explain the use of Bristol components in the last batch of 1966, but not in the 1964 buses. The small Dennis company had high engineering standards. As an example, the O4/O6 engines were the only British production diesels to have four valves per cylinder, and they incorporated timing gears at the back of the block and wet cylinder liners, all achieved in a powerful, entirely trouble free design. Other engine manufacturers who tried to incorporate such features didn’t entirely succeed.
Roger Cox
20/10/13 – 07:26
Very interesting reading, folks. Thanks so much for the good information. I do have a question, though, and one which I have been totally unable to resolve. Was the sliding door on the Loline manually operated, or was it powered? I travelled on Lolines in Liverpool (Crosville), but cannot remember if the door opened automatically, or had to be opened by hand.
Terry Hill, Ottawa
20/10/13 – 11:08
Terry, the doors on these buses were air pressure operated, usually by the driver, but the conductor had a control to use if required. I drove the Aldershot & District Alexander bodied Lolines which, apart from having the 6LW engine instead of the 6LX, and 68 rather than 71 seats, were otherwise identical. Fine buses!
Roger Cox
20/10/13 – 11:09
The doors were powered. On North Western’s batches they all gave trouble sticking from time to time and sometimes wouldn’t close when climbing a steep hill, especially in later life. The main problem with them as time went on, particularly with the North Western Alexander bodied batch, was the door would start from open and, as long as the vehicle was on a relatively flat road or heading down hill, would accelerate hitting the front door post with a loud bang instead of travelling at a constant pace and slowing as it reached the closed position as the manufacturer had intended. Considering the short distance the door had to travel the noise and the eventual damage caused was quite spectacular. The door, the door post and the mechanism all deteriorated, the results being sticking doors, damage to the frame around the door post, distorted doors and at least one instance of a door falling off as related by Peter Caunt in his book North Western – A Drivers Reminiscences. In fact to quote him on the speed of the doors makes the point: “This does not really describe adequately the speed at which the door closed or the terror that it inspired in those around it. What happened was the door would be open and the driver would move the lever to the closed position. For a couple of seconds nothing would happen then the door would close like lightning and would knock the hell out of the front corner pillar of the bodywork….when the door was opened it often moved sedately and correctly as though trying to inspire passengers with its genteel behaviour. The fact that it almost pushed the front off the bus when it closed is neither here nor there.”
Phil Blinkhorn
20/10/13 – 17:09
Phil, the doors on the Aldershot Lolines would sometimes hit the front door pillar with a bit of a bump, but nothing worse, and (pre NBC) booking this off as a defect always got the thing sorted out. The system was designed to cushion the closing and opening action at a point just short of the end of the door travel, and the last part of the motion was completed at very slow speed. The problems you mention must have arisen from sloppy maintenance or shortage of spares or over tight engineering budgets, or a combination of all three (welcome to the world of the present day big groups).
Roger Cox
20/10/13 – 18:07
The ex Ribble Burlingham bodied PD3s at Southend suffered from the same symptoms as mentioned above. The crews referred to them as Bacon Slicers.
Philip Carlton
21/10/13 – 07:13
Crosville did not operate Lolines in Liverpool, unless an odd ex-North Western Road Car example slipped in under the radar from Warrington. Crosville (in Liverpool) operated lots of Bristol Lodekkas (FSF & FLF) with front 4-leaf powered doors and lots of Bristol Lodekkas (LD and FS) with rear 2-leaf manual doors.
Dave Farrier
21/10/13 – 17:45
Could be from Warrington. I travelled regularly between Liverpool and Prescot. That route was served by both Crosville and Liverpool Corporation Passenger Transport. LCPT buses, which were unheated at that time, were known on the route as “Corpy ice-boxes”; it was worth the extra couple of pennies to ride on a heated bus in the Winter! Thank you, gentlemen, one and all, for your information (and your anecdotes). My Dennis Loline is actually a 1/76 scale model, and is an exhibit in my fictitious “Heathersfield Rail/Road Museum” which I am developing as part of an “00” gauge model railway layout. I am currently writing an extensive catalogue of exhibits, and I want to make sure that the information contained therein is as accurate as I can make it (as a retired technical writer, I’m a bit obsessive about accuracy). My model (made by Britbus) is in SELNEC Southern livery, has fleet number 889 and the licence plate number is RDB 889. If anyone has any information specific to this bus (the real one!), technical, historic or anecdotal, I would be very interested to hear about it.
Loline RDB 889 had chassis number 1019L3AF2B1 and Alexander body number 6681. It was one of those equipped with the five speed gearbox and was delivered to North Western in December 1961.
Roger Cox
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
28/07/17 – 16:31
I know this subject is a few years old now but I have only just found your interesting website, I drove both types of Lolines at Reading and agree with Alan Murray-Rust about the 4 speed Lolines being easier to change gear than the 5 speed version. If you didn’t engage 2nd gear as soon as you stopped at a bus stop it was hard to engage after idling in neutral. They were confined to the busy 15 and 25 routes when I drove them which were converted to OMO a few years later using brand new Scalia Metropolitans which were like Rolls Royces after the Lolines.
North Western Road Car Co 1962 Dennis Loline III Alexander H39/32F
Here is another picture of RDB 892 passing through Halifax en route to Manchester on another remarkably bright (for Halifax) summer day in 1966. This bus seems to have been a regular performer on the X12. The North Western Loline IIIs carried the chassis designations L3AF2B1 and L3AF2D1 which translated thus:-
L3 Loline III
A Long Wheelbase B reserved for 27ft 6in length, but none were made C for the shorter length Reading buses
A Dennis 5 speed gearbox for 6LW B Dennis 5 speed for 6LX C Dennis 4 speed for 6LW and similarly rated engines D Dennis 4 speed for 6LX E SCG 4 speed (for Belfast, China Bus and Dennis demonstrator examples) F SCG 5 speed (for Halifax) G Bristol 5 speed (for Reading)
1 Dennis rear axle 2 Bristol rear axle
Here is a picture of a North Western Loline, RDB 873, taken in 1965. The offside illuminated advertisement appears to be still in use. The NWRCC Lolines came in two forms. Numbers 872 to 881 were fitted with the ‘D’ type four speed gearbox, and Nos. 882 to 896 had the ‘B’ type five speed. Despite this tidy fleet numbering sequence, production of the two varieties took place side by side at the Dennis works. The last Loline delivered to North Western was four speed number 880, chassis number 1060. I cannot now recall exactly where this picture was taken, but I am sure that our Manchester area experts will soon provide the answer.
The first two Loline III buses went to Leigh Corporation, and these had the chassis code Y2. All subsequent production, starting with Aldershot and District 394 COR, were numbered from 1001 using the chassis code detailed above. Bus Lists on the Web shows the Halifax buses having the code for the Dennis rear axle, whereas they actually had the Bristol unit.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
24/11/13
Roger the location is Altrincham on Stamford New Rd having just crossed the level crossing from Stockport Rd. Approaching Altrincham station/bus station, the blind is already set for the return trip.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/11/13 – 18:17
Thanks, Phil. I was pretty sure that you would be able to identify the location. The semaphore signals are an interesting legacy from the steam age.
Roger Cox
24/11/13 – 19:13
The line behind was actually electrified as the overhead wires indicate although steam did run on it as well. It was the Manchester, South Junction & Altrincham line which is now part of Metrolink. There are still plenty of semaphore signals about on secondary lines today although their numbers are dwindling. Back to the bus – I always thought these were very attractive vehicles and so solid looking with their low chassis line. The photo also reminds us what a smart livery the North Western red and cream was.
Philip Halstead
25/11/13 – 05:53
The Alexander Lolines – like the East Lancs Renowns – are attractive, balanced designs. Strange then that Alexander Lowlanders were such a dogs’ breakfast. Stranger still that the Met Cam and Weymann Lowlander design seemed to work. Now no one picked me up on a post a year or two back – so I’m throwing it out again in the hope that some expert will back it up or shoot it down. Is this Alexander design their own final evolution of the Weymann Aurora which they built under licence for a number of operators – notably Glasgow and Liverpool – in the ’50s?
PS: Just to reinforce Phil’s opinion of me; Sheffield 861-880 were also attractive Alexander bodies of this ilk but they were highbridge. It’s lowheights where most of the disasters happen.
David Oldfield
26/11/13 – 06:15
The Lowlander was a tricky proposition for any body builder as it was a half-hearted attempt by Leyland at a low-height front engined bus at a time when its main thrust was on the Atlantean. By using the PD Titan front end it left the body builders with the problem of marrying the high engine and cab onto a low height rear end. Probably Northern Counties made the best stab at it.
Philip Halstead
26/11/13 – 07:57
Philip is absolutely correct. Leyland fudged the issue with the so called low height version of the Atlantean which, in its own way, was as much of a compromise as the low height bodies on traditional chassis had been. It saw its market potential diminish as AEC and upstart Dennis offered the Bridgemaster and Loline, and later the Renown, which had the perceived advantage of a traditional layout at the time when many operators were nervous about the Atlantean. Whilst none of these set the world on fire and Leyland’s salesmen did a sterling job with both operators and bodybuilders in selling the low height Atlantean bodge, the demand for a traditional chassis capable of carrying a low height body remained and many operators wanted it built by Leyland. So what did they do? As Philip says, they came up with another half hearted attempt and Alexanders made a bodge of bodying it. Daimler solved the problem and won significant orders with its drop centre rear axle (something Leyland could and should have used) on the Fleetline, killing off all the front engined competitors (apart of course from the “protected” Lodekka) and diminishing the sales of the Atlantean in Leyland’s traditional heartlands.
Phil Blinkhorn
26/11/13 – 16:45
Phil B’s excellent analysis aside, I always think style and design are such personal tastes, and ignoring nostalgia, of course, I’ve always thought that these were extremely attractive vehicles and, as Phil H pointed out, all the better for NWRCC’s tasteful colour scheme…. Have any survived – haven’t seen one on the rally circuit, ever….
Stuart C
27/11/13 – 06:15
Stuart, they looked even better in the Crosville green with black wheels and the large Crosville titles after the break up of NWRCC and before they were daubed with the NBC insipid imitation. They put all but Crosville’s coach versions of the FLF in the shade.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/11/13 – 06:16
According to this site www.dennissociety.org.uk/ RDB 872 has survived, but the lack of recent information about it might be rather worrying.
Roger Cox
27/11/13 – 10:00
I have many happy memories of riding on these Lolines in the late sixties. My favourite operator was Crosville, but as I lived in the Manchester area, a visit to Crosville’s area involved a journey to Warrington as a starting point. Usually I rode from Manchester to Warrington on North Western service 36, invariably on a Loline III. The section from Manchester to Altrincham was limited stop, and the bus was usually almost empty. It was a novelty to ride through Stretford and Sale without stopping. Beyond Altrincham we were in semi-rural surroundings, with quite a turn of speed. The gearbox made quite a loud shrieking noise, which combined with the Gardner road to add to the character of these buses. My return journey from Warrington was usually on Salford/LUT service 10, a far less interesting route although it was nice to ride on a Guy Arab. North Western also had 15 Loline II’s with East Lancs bodies. These were good looking but didn’t have the same character, especially as all but three had Leyland engines.
Don McKeown
27/11/13 – 12:15
I just can’t get used to the heavily domed roof on these Alexander bodies. Apart from looking odd, it deprives upper-deck passengers of a view, and it certainly contributes to the “Albion” Lowlander’s grotesque appearance. Very grateful for Loline chassis code list. All is now clear!
Ian Thompson
27/11/13 – 13:54
Ian, I’m not sure why you think the domed roof deprived upper deck passengers of a view. The header picture on this thread clearly shows it doesn’t on the Loline, either to the side or forward and, as for the Lowlander, whilst the a tall front seat passenger may have had a problem and those behind certainly would have, looking forward, as the front seats were raised to accommodate the cab, the view to side was as good as on any other body – and I rode on both types in service many times. I did, however find the domed look a tad overpowering.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/11/13 – 13:55
Just to expand on my previous comment regarding the X12 service. When I was younger I lived just outside Halifax beside the Bradford road along which the X12 passed, and took particular note of North Western’s buses as they were ‘foreigners’ and a bit mysterious as we locals were not able to use them as they snootily shot past all the stops. When I was very young back in the mid-1950’s the usual vehicles were fairly new bus-liveried Weymann-bodied Tiger Cubs, but I can recall Bristol L-types, Royal Tigers and the occasional Olympic and PD1 and PD2, and even a rebodied prewar K5G – that must have been ‘downer’ for all involved ! Then in the late 1950’s/early 1960’s it became the norm for the latest ‘blacktop’ DP’s to be used – at first the LDB-reg Weymann-bodied Reliances, then the later RDB-reg Willowbrook-bodied ones. On Summer Saturdays in particular it was still not at all unusual to see L5G’s right up to the time the last ones went, as well as any other thing they could muster whilst the DP’s were duplicating coaches on the longer services. The Weymann lowbridge PD2/21’s were by then also frequently used. I can remember seeing the occasional Alexander-bodied Reliance ‘coach’ and even an Aberdonian once. Then for quite a while in the 1960’s the Weymann-bodied Reliances seemed to reappear and become the standard issue once again – by then demoted to bus livery and converted to OMO with A-suffixes to their numbers. These lasted until being superseded by new Marshall-bodied RESL’s, which were most impressive at the time, then briefly brand new Alexander Y-type RELL’s. Lolines and the occasional Fleetline increasingly turned up at weekends. As far as I can recall it was only in the early 1970’s that the Alexander Y-type Leopards began to be used, at the same time that YWD’s share began to be operated under the guise of West Riding using similar vehicles. Yorkshire Woollen mostly used Olympics throughout the 1950’s, helped out by the lengthened PS2/Willowbrooks, though Brush-bodied PS1’s were often substituted at weekends. From 1960ish they started using mostly BET standard Reliances, but once again at busy times they would often put on double deckers – particularly the PS1/Orion super lightweight rebodies, and later the ‘reshortened’ and rebodied PS2’s. In 1972/73 I used the X12 for the greater part of my daily commute from Halifax to Salford, when I worked for SELNEC. By then it was very unusual for NWRCC to use anything but Y-type Leopards, but I mostly rode on the West Riding/YWD workings and they generally provided ex-YWD Leopard Y-types of the GHD-G batch, occasionally the much nicer and more comfortable Plaxton Derwent-bodied Leopards, and if one was unlucky YWD’s KHD-K batch of Marshall-bodied Leopard service buses, which were extremely uncomfortable with their spartan, low-backed and tightly spaced bus seats, hard ride and hideously clashing and lurid orange and red interiors. Very occasionally there would be an Alexander or ECW-bodied Fleetline. And all sadly now a distant memory.
John Stringer
27/11/13 – 14:31
John, as far as I can recall the Alexander Y type bodied Leopards ran out of the North Western Manchester depot on the X12 for a period when new. This would have been in 1963 (not 1962 as I originally stated) and probably not for a great length of time, nor more than one return trip on any day. The purpose was to both “run in” vehicles and give drivers familiarisation. When new the Y types were first used pretty much exclusively on the night time London services so were available during the day and I recall both boarding a Y type for London which had arrived at Lower Mosley St as an X12 half an hour before, had gone to the depot for fuel and returned with the blind showing X12, as well as travelling on one as far as Oldham.
Phil Blinkhorn
28/11/13 – 05:56
Replying to David Oldfield’s question about the relationship between this Alexander design and the Weymann Aurora, all I can say is that I am finding more and more that resemblance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I regard this design as an evolution of Alexander’s own previous double deckers, as exemplified by this one //sct61.org.uk/afrb135 .
Peter Williamson
01/12/13 – 08:11
I’m trying to get a perspective on the first picture. Was the man at the rear of the bus a midget?
Jim Hepburn
01/12/13 – 10:46
The picture was taken using a Zorki 6 camera with a standard 50 mm lens at the junction of Broad Street and Waterhouse Street, so the perspective is a natural one. The Loline is turning into Waterhouse Street en route for the main pick up point in George Street (if my septuagenarian memory still serves correctly), and the man is well behind the bus on the far side of Broad Street. I haven’t visited Halifax for several years, but looking at the site now on Google Earth, I find it barely recognisable.
Roger Cox
01/12/13 – 11:42
Yes Roger, it’s all changed. The building in the background was the Brunswick Bowling Alley, opened by onetime Coronation Street actress Pat Phoenix in February 1964. There was a car park on the roof accessed from Weymouth Street on the far side, and when first built it featured a 14 feet high fibreglass bowling pin on the top – above where the stair block can be seen on the right. There was a deluge of objections to this ‘monstrosity’ and the council made them take it down after six months. Its popularity quickly waned, and it closed in November 1969, when it became a Presto supermarket. There was a failed attempt to reopen it as a bowling alley again in 1986, then it remained disused until 2003 when cheapo supermarket chain Netto took it on for a while. After standing increasingly derelict for quite a while it was demolished in 2009, and a new ‘entertainment quarter’ – The Broad Street Plaza – was built on the site, featuring a multiplex cinema, 24-hour Gym, a Premier Inn hotel, expensive multi-storey car park and more national-chain eateries than a town could ever need. Swift’s machine tool factory on the distant Claremount hillside is long closed and gone, as is the prominent row of houses on the skyline behind.
John Stringer
01/12/13 – 16:40
If you have ever negotiated this bit with its one-chance lane-changes, you know that it is all steeper than it looks here, I think: so the perspective can play tricks?
Joe
02/12/13 – 07:20
I’m with Jim on this one – could that chap have been Jimmy Clitheroe?
Brendan Smith
02/12/13 – 07:22
Many thanks for that fascinating account of local history, John. I visited Halifax a few times up to the early 1970s, when I then discovered the totally insensitive eyesore of Burdock Way scything its way across the Hebble valley, utterly overpowering the superb structure of North Bridge. The philistines who sanctioned this brutalist excrescence should be chained, like Prometheus, to rocks on Beacon Hill, and evermore subjected to the sound of Stockhausen’s ‘music’.
Roger Cox
02/12/13 – 07:23
So, Roger (01/12), the X12 didn’t run via the Crossfield Bus Station towards Manchester? I agree, it does look as though the bus is turning left towards George Square [sic], but as the Bradford-Halifax section was a 2-hourly extension on a 1-hourly Halifax-Manchester service (according to my 1970 YWD timetable) then missing out the bus station doesn’t make sense as alternate journeys would have served different “starting points” in Halifax, and my timetable shows Crossfield Bus Station as the timing point in both directions. I think the bus is too far across the junction to turn left to George Square . . . its just snaking round the right-turn into Orange Street, after which it will continue up-hill then right-right into the bus station, then out of the bus station and eventually appear in front of the Presto (as I knew it) heading towards the left of where it is currently pictured. Were things different earlier?
Philip Rushworth
02/12/13 – 08:34
Careful now, Roger, there must be admirers of the Stockhausen genre, even on this website – maybe David O! Myself, I think it’s an affront to ‘uman Rights!
Chris Hebbron
02/12/13 – 09:22
Student to Thomas Beecham: “Have you heard any music by Stockhausen Sir Thomas?” “No, dear boy – but I believe I once stood in some…..”
David Oldfield
02/12/13 – 09:39
At one time buses aiming for Cross Field Bus Station from the lower part of Broad Street would continue across the junction with Waterhouse Street/Orange Street into the upper part of Broad Street, turn right into St. James Road, then into the Bus Station. Then a one-way system was introduced whereupon the upper part of Broad Street was made one-way downwards, and these services – along with all through westbound pre-M62 traffic – had to turn left into Waterhouse Street (as the Loline is doing here), right into Silver Street, then an awkward very sharp right into Cow Green and finally following the eastbound traffic flow to reach St. James Road and the Bus Station from the other direction. Later the upper part of Broad Street became two-way again, but a central island prevented reinstating the turn into St. James Road. Cow Green was widened and an island put along the centre also, preventing the right turn from Silver Street, and so services then simply turned right from lower Broad Street into Orange Street,then immediately left into Great Albion Street, left into St. James Road and the Bus Station. So the X12 was on its way to the Bus Station as the timetable stated, and all of which will probably mean nothing unless you know Halifax !
John Stringer
02/12/13 – 11:20
Impossible to trump that, David O!
Chris Hebbron
02/12/13 – 16:31
‘Admirers of the Stockhausen genre,” Chris? Setting aside the likes of Boulez, for whom music is a branch of mathematics, such characters are surely rare indeed. No doubt they are the same people who think that Yorkshire Tea is grown on the sunny south facing slopes above Hebden Bridge. Meanwhile back on subject with Philip, Crossfield Bus Station was a gaunt, inhospitable place, very poorly sited for the bus services of the town. Several routes, such as the 48/49 Hebden Bridge – Brighouse service, used it in one direction only. I seem to remember that the X12 in the mid 1960s did not serve Crossfield Bus Station towards Manchester, but picked up in George Street. If John thinks that my memory is suffering the structural failure of time, then I accept his greatly superior knowledge of the Halifax scene. Here, however, is a picture of Loline 892 turning into George Street from Commercial Street.
This shot has been shown on OBP earlier, but it is repeated here to illustrate the point.
Roger Cox
16/12/13 – 10:08
Great picture of RDB 873, which was an Altrincham Depot based Lowline in the 60/70s, RDB 872 to 881 were all based at Altrincham. The picture shows 873 has just crossed the level crossings, and about to arrive at Altrincham bus station, they were mainly used on the Stockport & Warrington runs, 873 was a great drive!!! good old days, Ex Altrincham driver!!!
Roger Williams
16/12/13 – 18:02
One Roger to another; it’s good to see another Loline fan on this site. I drove the Aldershot and District 6LW engined examples, many of which had the same style of Alexander bodywork as the NWRCC buses. The Loline was a superb machine, in my view an advance upon the excellent Lodekka from which it was derived. One regularly sees the comment all over the place that the Loline was merely a “licence built Lodekka”. It wasn’t; in house components were generally used, and Dennis re-engineered several features of the design, notably the braking system, which was full air operated in place of the Lodekka’s air/hydraulic type. Most of the production had Dennis transmissions, and the gearboxes were lighter to use than the heavier Bristol equivalents. It deserved to sell far better than it ultimately did, though some of the blame must lay with the Guildford firm itself for its strangely wavering commitment to marketing the model. Thanks for enlightening us about the Altrincham allocation. It seems that all the four speed Lolines were based at that one depot. I never rode on one of those, but the five speeders on the X12 over the Pennines from Yorkshire to Manchester could really fly.
Roger Cox
17/12/13 – 08:08
There were two routes from Stockport to Altrincham, the 71 via Cheadle and Gatley and the 80 via Heaton Mersey and Didsbury. I lived on the latter and regularly travelled on the Lolines until they were replaced on most turns by Fleetlines and Renowns. Talking to crews they only had two complaints, at least in the first few years of service: the doors which were temperamental and, from a large number of drivers, the angle of the steering wheel. As NWRCC always felt it had been dropped into the wrong camp when nationalisation came along and deprived it of its beloved Bristols, the engineering department really liked their Leyland engined MkIs, the engines bought for spares commonality, and were overjoyed when the the Gardner engined versions appeared and the MkIIIs were ordered in enough quantity to make the engine switch economically viable.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/12/13 – 14:27
Phil, the Gardner 6LW and 6LX options were available in the Loline from its early Mark I days, so North Western could have had the Mark II/6LX version from the start. Perhaps BET group purchasing policies, which sometimes overruled local company preferences, dictated the use of Leyland engines in the first twelve of the Mark IIs, but the last three had Gardner power plants, so local opinion clearly prevailed in the end. The angled steering wheel did require a bit of getting used to, but after a short while it seemed entirely natural, the driving position being similar to that found in private cars. In the days before powered steering, reaching the far side of the wheel to apply the lock in tight corners was far easier than leaning across the flat wheel of Leylands and their like.
Roger Cox
This comment was sent yesterday but got caught in the spam filter, it is usually very good. If you ever send a comment and nothing happens please let me know by plain email (ie no links in the text).
17/12/13 – 16:22
John, going back to our posts of the 2nd, so things were different earlier then! Now to Roger’s post: the Burdock way was “forced” on the town because its situation in a narrow valley prevented a conventional by-pass, so the only solution was up-and-over the town centre – as it stands, what you see is only Phase 1 of what was planned (and in a much toned-down form) . . . for the full horror (errm, surely utopian vision?) of what the planners had in mind go to www.cbrd.co.uk, and //wikimapia.org/11168283/ for a map of the destruction that would have been caused if the scheme had been built in full. Then the M62 was opened and traffic through the town centre fell considerably, so that was it. Meanwhile, as Roger says, whilst car drivers were whizzing around on the fancy new by-pass bus passengers would have been enduring the delights of Crossfield bus-station . . . where they could stare at a painted panel of a weeping (from its headlights) blue Calderdale JOC Loline pleading “‘m blue because I’ve no driver” or a DP Seddon RU/Pennine advertising the 68/X68 to Sheffield (two of Halifax’s rarer bus types) – both over-painted in Verona green sometime after 1974 (more mindless destruction).
Philip Rushworth
18/12/13 – 06:17
Roger, the use of Leyland engines in the MkIIs was, as I understand it, a Charles St decision, mainly to have commonality with other vehicles in the fleet though I suspect there was perhaps a degree of mollifying the BET powers that be, having found the nearest thing to a Bristol, and bearing in mind the Atkinson saga less than ten years before.
Phil Blinkhorn
18/12/13 – 17:57
Many thanks, Philip, for that informative note, and the links, about the Burdock Way horror. The more I read about this project, the greater I become convinced that it was fundamentally an ego statement, a sort of northern precursor of Boris Island, by “A Prominent Councillor” (to use the expression of the website). In an age when road building for the private car was king, this grandiose idea was seen by local dignitaries (none of whom, I bet, lived in the areas blighted by the road) as a project to “Put Halifax On The Map”. When I went to work in Halifax as a 23 year old, I lived in a bedsit in Swires Terrace, a part of the old town which would apparently have been obliterated by Phase Two of this barbaric scheme. I consider that superior alternatives, involving properly thought out link roads to the M62, would have better resolved the east- west through traffic problems. The mere existence of this Burdock Way excrescence must have generated through traffic that would otherwise have gone elsewhere. The north – south flows between Keighley and Huddersfield surely cannot have posed insuperable problems within Halifax. My home town of Croydon embarked upon a similar brutalist scheme in the late 1950s and early 1960s, carving a north – south dual carriageway right through the Victorian town centre. Like the Halifax effort, all this achieved was to move and exacerbate the congestion at points on the edges of the town where the scheme fizzled out. The ultimate verdict on its success may be judged by a present day proposal to pedestrianise the greater part of it. With a bit of luck, the Halifax viaduct monstrosity across the Hebble Valley will succumb in the near future to the high alumina cement worm. I would willingly buy a ticket to watch and cheer as it came down.
Roger Cox
19/12/13 – 06:50
When I was a 17 year-old, 1955-56, I had a girlfriend in Croydon and used to get the trolleybus across Mitcham Common as part of my journey. The centre I had a modest knowledge of. A couple of years ago, I had to go there and went on the tram from Wimbledon. I recognised nothing of the town centre, apart from some shops on the right-hand side on the way out, by tram again. All the character had gone. My wife’s home town, Woking, has also disappeared under a mass of concrete nonentities! Portsmouth has changed in parts, mainly to satisfy traffic needs, but otherwise seems to remain substantially the same. I say nothing about the Guildhall Square!
Chris Hebbron
19/12/13 – 08:53
I was under the impression that the dreadful centre of Croydon was due to the after effects of Adolf. He flattened Sheffield and we suffered because the City Fathers slung up buildings post war rather than taking a breath and designing it properly. [To be fair, the bombed buildings needed replacement – but by better buildings.] As for Woking – it’s my nearest town, and a hole! I cannot find any excuse for what was done to the town centre. Certainly can’t blame Adolf for that one – although, arguably, Bracknell was even worse! [I do, however, have many (continuing) happy musical associations with Croydon.]
David Oldfield
19/12/13 – 17:59
Chris, I well remember Woking of yore before “developers” got it in their grubby paws. The last time I went it was as unrecognisable as the dark side of the Moon. In the late 1960s the old Tracco garage was the last operating base of those wonderful Lancet IIIs. Even Guildford, the sett paved High Street of which seems to feature in scenic postcards as frequently as Gold Hill in Shaftesbury, has had a grotesquely unsympathetic concrete circulatory system dropped down at the River Wey crossing. Betjeman’s poem about Slough springs instantly to mind, which brings me to David’s comment. Apparently, 1338 high explosive bombs and 5 parachute mines were dropped on Croydon Borough in WW2, though the old Victorian town centre remained surprisingly intact. The ‘planners’ then targeted what Göring had missed. From the mid 1950s onwards Croydon was a pioneer in the new order of ruthless redevelopment and heavy handed highway engineering. High rise buildings began to dominate the skyline turning the streets below into pedestrian wind tunnels; when I moved north in 1964 I found Bradford to be blusteringly similar. Thankfully, the Fairfield Halls were built as part of the Croydon redevelopment scheme. I, too, of have splendid memories of drama and music productions there, such as Alan Bennett plays, and a wonderful concert performance of Bartok’s Duke Bluebeard’s Castle amongst many, so there is a positive side to Croydon’s ‘regeneration’, though perhaps ‘mutation’ might be the more accurate word. Those Lolines above have sent us off on quite a journey! I wish that they were still around. On yet another tangent, I now see that the fine Norfolk Green business has been taken over by Stagecoach, so one more interesting bus livery bites the dust.
Roger Cox
19/12/13 – 18:33
Newcastle also suffered at the hands of corrupt developers and City Councillors. The two main protagonists were the architect John Poulson, and City Councillor T Dan Smith, who glorified in the name of ‘Mr Newcastle’. A High Court Judge had different ideas, and he was soon to become Mr Durham E Wing. Unfortunately, the damage was done. One result was that in the middle of the City you now have a half mile section of dual carriageway from nowhere to nowhere, they named after John Dobson, the 19th Centaury architect, much of who’s work they had systematically destroyed.
Ronnie Hoye
20/12/13 – 07:18
The Hebble Valley viaduct is indeed an ugly monstrosity, and during recent weeks has once again been undergoing repairs to the side barriers and the deteriorated concrete which supports them. However, much as the landscape would be hugely improved without its domineering presence, I can not even begin to imagine how Halifax would manage without it now. The problem with not going ahead with the upper level of the flyover is that all the through traffic was then channelled onto the Burdock Way roundabout (where the A58 intersects with the A629) which even with its recent reprofiling and improvements is still a bottleneck and results in many accidents. An upper level would at least have removed the through A58 east-west traffic from the equation – ugly though it would have been. I can not think of any alternative road system which could deal with Halifax’s through-traffic predicament. As I understand it the design had to be modified, and the intended upper level abandoned following the controversy at the time regarding the safety of box-girder bridges.
John Stringer
20/12/13 – 12:07
May I be allowed to vote in favour of Burdock Way? I think its rather good: not exactly the Millau viaduct, but as good as it gets in practical highways in the sky in those parts. The legend is, though, that Halifax retained most of its Victorian town centre because they could never agree on what to do the advantage, I guess, of hung councils. To swing back nearer the thread, I think we are inclined here (& not just here) to judge design by today’s standards & fashions when yesterday’s and tomorrow’s are/will be different. Functionality often is the design standard that lasts over streamlining (at 25mph), dorsal fins and Borisbuses. That is the appeal of the Routemaster or the Leyland or Roe bodies or even simple liveries relying on good colours or the wonderful statement of Sheffield cream we are going to be a clean city! Talking of future, is it the urban battery bus with a little diesel or ? engine for backup, like trolley batteries? Quiet, clean, no infrastructure….
Joe
21/12/13 – 11:49
You are absolutely right about Newcastle Ronnie. Thankfully they put T Dan Smith away before he did the same to Dean Street and Grey Street. However, even that didn’t stop the later tragedy when Stagecoach swept away the glorious yellow liveried buses that always brightened up those short winters days along Northumberland Street. There is a lot to be said about a good livery cheering up a town centre on a gloomy day!
Mike Morton
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/08/14 – 07:05
What wouldn’t I give now to do Leeds Manchester on a L5G or an X60 on a K type. By the way, the red on the Loline looks very deep and it may be a fault on the photo reproduction. Now I much preferred the East Lancs North Western Lolines for looks. I suspect because they had proper via indicators and the old “proper” fleet name and big numbers. They also took part in the old 52 service before the 29/30 to Macclesfield was double decked in December 1961 with those new Lolines, ruining all the interesting weekend extras that used to run. Oh that they had been delivered two years earlier in pre-1958 livery! I think Alexander double deck bodies are ugly.
Bob Bracegirdle
11/08/14 – 11:19
I recall taking part in an enthusiasts’ visit to North Western’s depot and workshops at Stockport many years ago, and talking to one of their engineers who was showing us around. He told me that in his opinion the Alexander-bodied Lolines were far superior to the East Lancs-bodied ones structurally and quality-wise. He said that though East Lancs. did build good quality bodywork if you were prepared to pay for it (citing the local Corporation’s Leylands), they were also quite prepared to build whatever the buyer asked for at whatever price they were prepared to pay, and that those Lolines were built to a low cost specification. Of course this has no bearing on their aesthetic quality and, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
North Western Road Car Co 1967 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Alexander H44/31F
Here we have one of a batch of North Western Daimler Fleetlines with an Alexander body. According to the PSV Circle Publication PX3 Post-War Second-Hand British Buses in North America mentions that two of the batch 245 and 247, JDB 245E and JDB 247E became 213 and 215 at City of Oxford Motor Services. They then went to Ensign a dealer in Grays, Essex. 245 in October 1979 and 247 in February, the following year both being exported to World Square, Kailua, Oahu, Hawaii in April 1980. There is a couple of problems with this. First they were F registered (see photo of 245 at Lower Moseley St Bus Station in 1970, about a month before I went to Australia), this of course is most likely a simple typo The second problem is that Kailua is not on Oahu (the main island), Kailua is on “the big island”, Hawaii in the town of Kona and on a visit to World Square in 2004, there was no sign of either of the two North Western Fleetlines, although one shopkeeper did remember them. Does anybody have photos of the Fleetlines at World Square on the big island of Hawaii.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Lynas
03/03/13 – 14:19
I’d imagine that, apart from age, the difficulty of obtaining spares for a defunct manufacturer’s product – as is the case for both engine and chassis – at such a distance would have removed the Fleetlines from service well before 2004. Whilst a Cummins may well have been a suitable alternative engine, new or used, it would most likely have been more cost effective to buy other, newer, vehicles. “Mutton dressed as lamb” or perhaps “All dressed up but nothing to show” springs to mind seeing the photo. 245-248 were painted in coach livery particularly for the X60 in 1970 though they did appear on other services. Paint doesn’t make a coach and patrons still had to sit on bus seats and the drive train was not re-geared so they were not as fast as the Mk3 Lolines with the 5 speed gear box which had regularly appeared on the X60 without the benefit of masquerading as a coach. Still anything was better than making the trip on a Willowbrook bodied K5G which regularly appeared as duplicates on the service up until 1964. Now one of those in coach livery would have been something else!
Phil Blinkhorn
04/03/13 – 08:02
Phil makes some interesting comments about North Western’s “pseudo White Ladies” which prompts me to ask: I know the Ribble, Standerwick and Scout “Gay Hostesses” had upgraded seating, but did they and the White Ladies have alterations to the drive train? Did the White Ladies (the old Titans or the Atlanteans) have upgraded seating? Sadly, I don’t have interior views of the preserved PD2 or Atlantean White Ladies, only exteriors. On from that, I do accept that the ride from Manchester to Blackpool on any vehicle with bus seating will not have been wonderfully comfortable, but it can’t be as bad as an Ambleside Depot HR44 Olympic which turned up at Morecambe Bus Station on the London service one summer Saturday morning in about 1965. No, folks, it wasn’t the luggage hauler!
Pete Davies
04/03/13 – 09:03
As a soft Yorkshireman, and a coach man, weaned on Sheffield United Tours and S J O C coaches, I always went for the idea that even Sheffield – Manchester ought to be run by coaches. I was never impressed by the North Western/Ribble – let alone Yorkshire “J” services – running service buses (often “disguised” as coaches). To see X2 Nottingham – Blackpool with a bus Leopard would not impress me. Bus Leopards, REs or Nationals didn’t impress me when they turned up on the X67 Mansfield – Chesterfield – Manchester workings.
David Oldfield
04/03/13 – 15:08
The original White Ladies bodied by Burlingham and East Lancs had moquette trimmed higher backed than bus seats coach seats, but suffered from the lowbridge layout in so much as the upper deck had four seats across. The Atlantean White Ladies for regional express services, which were more cream than their ancestors, had coach seats with head rests and individual seat frames. At one period in the late 1960s 1272 used to be an almost every weekday sighting for me as it ploughed a constant furrow on the X43 between Skipton and Manchester. The Atlanteans with 59 seats had a fair turn of speed so overtaking them on the de-restricted sections of the A56 was often a matter of fine judgement
Phil Blinkhorn
04/03/13 – 15:13
David, as a Lancastrian both by birth and by residence, I feel honour bound to point out that Yorkshire companies were equally fond of using standard service buses on completely inappropriate express workings. Examples which spring readily to mind are West Yorkshire (Bristol L type saloons on Leeds to Liverpool timings as late as 1964!), Yorkshire Woollen (various ageing service buses also on the X97/99 whenever better vehicles were needed for private-hire/excursion duties), Yorkshire Traction (Saro bodied Tiger Cubs on their share of the Blackpool services)….need I go on? As an enthusiast I used to be quite excited to get one of NWRCC’s Bristol K5Gs on an X97 from Sale to Liverpool (this happened to me twice in 1964/65 – their final year in service – and the chassis on these vehicles were pre-war). I must confess though that the other passengers looked less excited. I agree with you completely about the use of saloons on the X1/X2/X60 interchange. This was little short of a disgrace and all three operators (Ribble/NWRCC/Trent) were guilty of it. I think the ultimate prize for such inappropriate scheduling (apart from the HR44 already mentioned, although from personal experience I suspect that this gave its passengers to something classier at Preston)should go to Boyer – the Leicestershire independent absorbed by Midland Red. They regularly used their pair of Sentinel STC6/44 service buses on their express timings to Blackpool. As much as I love Sentinels this was a step too far!
Neville Mercer
04/03/13 – 17:41
Neville. As I’ve said before, I can be guilty of shorthand language which can be a little unclear. My reference to the Yorkshire J services was my acknowledgement that we were equally guilty on our side. Sorry if I was clear as mud. I only lived in Sale from 1976 – 1981 so missed K5Gs (thank goodness). As one of Bristol’s biggest fans I’m afraid – even in the flat-lands of South Manchester and the Cheshire Plain – only a 6B or 6G would do for me…..
David Oldfield
04/03/13 – 17:42
….And there can be few to rival your knowledge of Sentinels, Neville. Your comprehensive book, with co-author John Howie, on this marque is a masterpiece of research and writing.
Roger Cox
05/03/13 – 06:49
…..or indeed anything Neville turns his hand to…..
David Oldfield
05/03/13 – 06:49
Thank you, Phil. I hope Neville’s correct about transferring passengers from the HR44 at Preston. From what I recall of the Inspector’s answer to a customer, it didn’t seem likely on this occasion.
Pete Davies
05/03/13 – 06:50
Of course, everyone is right about inappropriate vehicles on long distance express services – but actually there were a lot of long routes right across the country that were routinely operated by normal seated buses. At the end of the day it is how long you are sitting in a low-backed bus seat, rather than how far you have travelled, that determines how acceptable it is. I think of the Ribble 555 Keswick – Lancaster service at nearly 3 hours; Western National’s old 18 when it ran all the way from Penzance to St Austell – also 3 hours. I have mentioned before how Lincolnshire often operated the route 3 Lincoln – Cleethorpes (2 hours) with Bristol SC4LK’s. I suspect some of London Transport’s longer central area services also took a couple of hours, though I was never very familiar with them. Obviously, on some of these routes, through passengers would be in the minority – but they were by no means a rarity.
Stephen Ford
05/03/13 – 12:24
I recall that the X60 and other Blackpool services used other operators’ buses on hire in the summer season. In the 1960s, Todmorden JOC used a coach-seated Leopard on hire to Ribble, but if one was not available, the bus-seated version would be used. I’m not sure if TJOC lowbridge Leylands were used previously; if so, they were not that different mechanically from the Ribble “White Ladies” used on the X4 Manchester – Blackpool via Rochdale and Todmorden, which took 3½ hours, although it’s unlikely that many did the full trip.
Geoff Kerr
05/03/13 – 13:48
My thanks to Roger and David for the embarrassing praise! I quite agree with Stephen about the longer stage carriage routes – another one which springs to mind was the 122 from Gravesend to Brighton. Not sure how long it actually took but it seemed endless in a fully loaded ‘decker. I still think that the X2/X60 interchange takes the proverbial biscuit – this clocked in at more than six hours which was a ridiculous amount of time to spend aboard a service bus. Fortunately (as far as I know!) there was no similar scheduling of saloons on the X7/X2/X60 double interchange from Great Yarmouth to Blackpool. But I could be wrong – especially in the case of joint operator Ribble who seemed unable to tell the difference between a coach and a bus. Although I never saw the aforementioned HR44 on the London services I did record a bus-seated PSU3 Leopard at Victoria Coach Station in 1966. OK, it was brand new at the time, but I suspect that the “new bus smell” did little to mollify the passengers who required buttock amputation after the trip. On the other hand the Gay Hostess Atlanteans were not as good as they looked from a passenger comfort viewpoint. Toilet smells tended to permeate the lower deck while those upstairs (even if, like myself, not prone to travel sickness) soon became weary of the pitching and yawing on any road less glamorous (?) than a fully-fledged motorway. You know I love Yorkshire, David – it’s my second favourite county….
Neville Mercer
05/03/13 – 14:39
I must admit that the thought of travelling on the upper deck of a Gay Hostess Atlantean at 60 mph, even on the relatively empty M1 of the 1960s, fills me with trepidation even now. I well remember driving at just under 60 mph in my upright Ford Pop (top speed 65, down hill with a following wind) and being thrown off course with one passing me at speed south of Newport Pagnell. When the next one in a convoy of three appeared in my mirror I slowed down!!
Phil Blinkhorn
06/03/13 – 06:48
I don’t have any information as to running times Etc, but one of the longest routes to use services buses must have been the Western SMT route between Glasgow and Stranraer. It more or less followed the A77, which was, and still is for the most part single carriageway, and by the time it went into and out of every village along the way, it must have been around the 90 mile mark from end to end. I would assume the crews would have been on a part way changeover basis, with three or more depots involved. Can anyone give any details?
Ronnie Hoye
06/03/13 – 06:48
Am I not right in thinking that one of Standerwick’s ‘best’ came to grief on its side on the motorway on one occasion?
Chris Hebbron
06/03/13 – 06:50
My worst journey was returning from a holiday in Leven (Fife) to Glasgow in an Alexander owned, Alexander rebodied with a semi-utility lowbridge TD4 body. The temperature was in the 80s and the bus was packed, with many unhappy young children and parents in need of another holiday!
Jim Hepburn
07/03/13 – 06:42
The mention of operators hiring in vehicles for express services reminded me that many years ago in High Street Heckmondwike I saw one of Bradford Corporations AEC Reliance on hire to Hebble returning from Blackpool.
Philip Carlton
07/03/13 – 10:44
I can help you there, Ronnie. as, in my RAF National Service days, I travelled on it (to & from Cairnryan) several times in mid-1958 to spend weekends in Glasgow. The total distance is about 90 miles. The journey took four hours, with a stop for crew-change, re-fuelling and passenger “toileting” inside Ayr Depot, some fifty miles into the journey. From Stranraer to Ayr, it was very scenic. It was a two-hourly service and Western SMT used new”ish tin-fronted Leyland PD2″s with lowbridge Northern Counties bodies on the route. It was pretty well patronised, but few passengers rode for more than about 25% of the journey. The other long”ish routes I used to do was Southdown 31 from Southsea to Brighton (52) and the A&D (24?) from Petersfield to Guildford (30 miles) and Red & White 73 from Gloucester to Newport (48), originally to Cardiff, later only to Chepstow, now just to Lydney!
Chris Hebbron
07/03/13 – 10:48
In the longest journeys class would be the joint United / SMT routes from Newcastle to Glasgow and Edinburgh; these were stage carriage most of the way, and indeed the only bus service in many parts. I believe they would normally be either service buses or at best ‘dual-purpose’. The 15 from Newcastle to Glasgow took 7 1/2 hours (or 8 including the summer only extension to Whitley Bay)although this did include a comfort break and crew change at Galashiels.
David Todd
07/03/13 – 17:04
Not sure about the Atlanteans but in 1974 one of Standerwick’s Bristol VRL coaches overturned on the M1 near Luton causing 3 deaths and some serious injuries. Incidentally the only time I used a Standerwick Atlantean on the Colne to London service it broke down on the M1. Numerous other trips with Leopards passed without incident.
Paragon
07/03/13 – 17:30
I’d agree with PARAGON on this. I’ve never heard of one of the Atlanteans falling over, but I do recall one of the VRLs doing that trick. Am I right in thinking they moved on shortly afterwards?
Pete Davies
07/03/13 – 17:59
The Standerwick VRL accident arose when the driver attempted to avoid a lamp standard that was leaning across the carriageway resulting from a crash by an articulated lorry just in front of the coach. The VRL and its passengers – sadly 3 killed and 30 injured – were essentially the victims of circumstances outside their control.
Roger Cox
08/03/13 – 07:15
I think it is correct that one of the Standerwick Gay Hostess (i.e. Atlantean) coaches finished on its side somewhere down the M1. This would be the late 1960s, it is my understanding that the driver involved was Burnley-based, and that he was still at that depot in 1970/71 when I was on Laycock’s.
David Call
30/03/13 – 14:09
The Standerwick decker we immediately think of allegedly dropped into the (in those days) soft central strip which led to a few control problems! if it was the same one the story was that he’d taken evasive action to avoid an artic which had, or was in the process of, jackknifing. In these days of tachos and pedestrian progress imposed by Brussels it is difficult to relate to the speed a Standerwick decker “flew” at, we were scheduled to average 70 on a “Z” you saw a white dot in offside mirror which grew and grew, they then blasted past like you were standing still! Allegedly, (and no reason to doubt it) they used a full set of brakes in a fortnight, as far as I know they didn’t have retarders, didn’t they come later on in life? The economics of decker coaches at the time was against them as 51 seaters were just coming in and they could only carry sixty, there were also fun and games in London as they couldn’t (but at least one tried!!) get through Sammy’s
Pete Bradshaw
26/05/15 – 06:42
Regarding North Western’s “pretend” White Ladies. I can’t remember now. Were they delivered in fleet livery (mainly red)? I thought so up to now.
Bob Bracegirdle
26/05/15 – 11:02
245-248 were delivered in fleet livery and were painted in 1970 for the Blackpool express service.
Stephen Howarth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/02/20 – 07:27
Here is a picture of 245 taken in Manchester in June 1970. The fixed glazing apart from the openings on the last window on each deck must have made for dubious ventilation characteristics.
Roger Cox
12/02/20 – 16:42
With the exception of the Bedford VALs, all North Western deliveries, both single and double deckers, from 1964 to 1971 had forced air ventilation of one form or another. The system certainly worked when new and presumably continued to provide satisfactory ventilation as only 2 Fleetlines were delivered without the system. An experimental Compas heating and ventilation system was installed on 188 and 189, delivered in 1965, but this was not used for the 1967 deliveries which reverted to the system as installed on previous vehicles and 245.
North Western Road Car Co 1965 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Alexander H44/31F
DDB 174C is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX with Alexander H75F bodywork. She was new to North Western in 1965. The company was split in NBC days and, so far as I am aware, she became part of the SELNEC fleet, passing to GMPTE when the ‘new’ county expanded to include Wigan. She became part of the GMPTE museum fleet and was one of two vehicles from that collection (the other was a Leigh Renown) which took part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary event, where we see her on Itchen Bridge. The date is 6 May 1979.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
29/09/15 – 07:08
Pete Davies is correct in saying that DDB 174C became part of the SELNEC PTE fleet. The process though was not that straight forward. I am sure a lot of contributors to this site will know this, but I think it needs retelling. In November 1971, a new company, wholly owned by North Western, was formed in readiness for the impending split up of the Company. The new Company was the ‘North Western (SELNEC Division) Road Car Company Limited’. On the 1st January 1972 this new company took over from North Western the stage carriage services within the SELNEC PTE area, together with Garages at Altrincham, Glossop, Oldham, Stockport, and Urmston (Wilmslow garage had closed on 19th December 1971. On the same date the services in the Biddulph, Macclesfield, and Norwich areas together with the vehicles and garages, were transferred to Crosville Motor Services Ltd. On 4th March 1972 the properties at Buxton, Matlock, and Castleton, again with the vehicles and services, passed to the Trent Motor Traction Co Ltd. On the same day the North Western (SELNEC Division) Road Car Company Ltd., passed from North Western to SELNEC PTE control, and was renamed the SELNEC Cheshire Bus Company Limited.
Stephen Howarth
30/09/15 – 06:07
Thanks for that, Stephen. As you say, not at all straightforward!
Pete Davies
30/09/15 – 06:07
These Fleetlines were very cramped internally. There was very little leg room between the seats. Later when I worked at Rochdale Depot, we had four of these Fleetlines. As a conductor I still found them a bit cramped internally, even though they were the same size as other buses. The gangway was narrow, and the ceilings were low – they were the only low height buses I conducted. Later as a driver, they were very nice to drive, although like all Fleetlines in those pre-power steering days, the steering became very heavy when the bus was full. They would have benefitted from a footrest for the driver’s left foot. On one or two occasions I picked up bricks to use as a footrest.
Don McKeown
30/09/15 – 06:08
If anyone wants to see DDB 174C Close up she has been on static display At Boyle Street for Sometime now. As if any of us who follow this site would need an excuse to visit.
Cyril Aston
01/10/15 – 06:22
The lack of opening windows is notable – I seem to recall that North Western’s second batch of Renowns was similar. Can anyone recall how the forced ventilation coped with the cigarette fug – or the heat on a rare North West sunny day? (I suppose the lack of sliding vents was one less place to let the rain in!!) As an afterthought, Bus Manufacturers still can’t produce a reliable heating/ventilation system in 2015
Ian Wild
01/10/15 – 17:30
With reference to this posting, I attach a view of DDB174C on Southampton Common the following morning, in company with the Leigh Renown (PTC 114C) and the Merseyside (ex Southport) PD2 open topper, CWM 154C. What a wonderful variety of chassis and body styles our operators had back then!
Pete Davies
02/10/15 – 05:50
Not to mention a wonderful variety of fine liveries Pete.
Brendan Smith
02/10/15 – 05:50
Indeed, Ian, especially in respect of the windscreen area!
Pete Davies
03/10/15 – 12:34
I don’t remember Crosville taking over stock from Norwich. Wasn’t it Northwich?
Woody
04/10/15 – 07:06
Thanks for correcting my typo Woody. I blame the pre-emptive text on my Kindle.
Stephen Howarth
04/10/15 – 11:49
Talking of Wilmslow depot (29/09/15, above), didn’t it become North Western’s HQ for a time? If I’m right in this, could someone say when, relative to the other events mentioned?
David Call
05/10/15 – 06:18
David, I think you are right, but I’m not sure on dates. I seem to remember a day out from a family visit to my grandmother in Bolton in April 1973, when I went to Blackpool on a North Western vehicle, and that had the Wilmslow address.
Pete Davies
05/10/15 – 06:19
David Call is correct in that Church Street Wilmslow became the Registered office of North Western in January 1972. The slimmed down Company was left as an Express service operator with 84 coaches, a garage at Hulme Hall Road in Manchester and a Travel Office at 32 Merseyway, Stockport. Wilmslow was also George Brook’s office as Regional Director of NBC. The garage was used for storing withdrawn vehicles for a time after it ceased being an operational garage. I do not (as yet) have a date when it finally shut. It was sold for redevelopment.
Stephen Howarth
14/05/16 – 06:41
It should also be noted that from 1 January to 3 March 1972 inclusive North Western vehicles operating on local services carried “On Hire to North Western” labels whilst all the legal formalities were carried out.
John Dixon
14/05/16 – 08:48
John, that reminds me of the time when the green buses in north Devon carried labels saying, “This is a Red Bus”.
Roger Cox
15/05/16 – 06:55
John & Roger, I once attended a seminar at Aston University where Dr Caroline Cahm (did I spell the surname properly?) was one of the speakers. She related the odd situation in Portsmouth on the first day of “Portsmouth Transit”, when a lady with a Southdown pass could not understand why a driver in Southdown uniform would not let her use the pass on a bus in Southdown colours. Politics and politicians – who’d have them?
Pete Davies
01/08/19 – 09:05
Still grinds every time I see 174 with a fleet number below the windscreen. North Western NEVER displayed the fleet number on this batch this way.
The reference to Crossville takeover above should no doubt read Northwich not Norwich!
Bob Bracegirdle
03/06/21 – 06:26
I remember riding on Daimler Fleetline buses as a child in Partington.They ran on the 222 service. Later changed to 252 I believe. There was an old arched railway bridge just as you came into Partington in which these buses had to steer into the middle of the road to clear the bridge. I can’t quite remember the other bus models that ran services in Partington to Sale Stretford, Urmston and Manchester City centre.
North Western Road Car 1964 AEC Renown 3B3RA Park Royal H42/30F
This former North Western bus still in its original livery but with SELNEC (Cheshire) fleetnames is at the Norfolk Arms terminus in Glossop in May 1972 not long after North Western was split between SELNEC, Trent and Crosville. This was one of the second batch of these buses bought by North Western in this case with forced ventilation evidenced by the lack of opening windows. I wonder how effective this was in dispersing the cigarette smog more or less standard on the upper decks of buses in those days. I pass this location from time to time and wonder at how there could have been a busy bus terminus at such a busy location.
The Norfolk Arms was busy and similar to the LPTB Hounslow trolleys, the traffic signals were controlled by the driver when ready to depart. I think it was mounted on the pole just by the driver’s cab in the picture. This turned the High St W and E, Victoria St and Norfolk St lights to red and then the bus would sweep out. I have it on good authority this led to at least one conductor being left behind. The old North Westerns from Glossop had a few characters.
Mike Franks
28/08/12 – 18:03
I felt bereft, as a student in Manchester, missing my AECs from STD, SUT and the local coach operators. Luckily North Western plied down the Wilmslow and Palatine Roads in student land. It might have been a Fleetline or a Loline but my day was always made when one of these Renowns turned up to take me home. These PRV bodies have, unfairly in my opinion, been called ugly. Compared with Bridgemasters – especially the forward entrance version – these were positively beautiful, and in their own right were better looking than many contemporaries.
David Oldfield
28/08/12 – 18:04
When NBC was set up many fleets were shuffled around like decks of cards, and Northern General was no exception. At Percy Main ‘Tynemouth and Wakefields’ we had a number of Daimler Fleetlines sent off to different areas and got all sorts in return, among the number were six Renown’s that came from East Yorkshire’s fleet. I was in the minority but I quite liked them, especially if you got one on the likes of the 306 or 308 where you had some long gaps between stops, but they could be hard work on some of the town service routes that stopped at every other lamp post.
Ronnie Hoye
29/08/12 – 07:59
I have to agree with David that this version of the Park Royal body, combined with North Western’s style of applying the livery, is FAR better than the version on the Bridgemaster or on Southampton’s Regents and PD2As. Those things were little better than shoe boxes with windows. It’s not far off the style Oxford had on their …CWL Regents, and it really was quite good!
Pete Davies
29/08/12 – 08:00
I agree with David that the Park Royal Renowns were a big improvement on the Bridgemaster but I wouldn’t go as far as to say they were beautiful. The only Renowns that can justify that accolade in my opinion were the East Lancs bodied versions operated by Leigh Corporation. There were both rear and forward entrance versions in a wonderful blue and cream livery. Fortunately one of the forward entrance vehicles is still with us at Boyle Street museum in Manchester.
Philip Halstead
29/08/12 – 08:02
Wearing my driver’s hat, I can imagine a Fleetlines’s attraction for stop start over a manual AEC – much as I personally prefer the latter. Significantly, the North Western Renowns had been “downgraded” from long trunk routes, only to be reinstated by Crosville when they had taken over the Cheshire operations. They claimed they were better out on the open road and could maintain “a head of steam”!
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 10:17
Philip. I did say compared with the Bridgemaster. I would definitely agree with you about the Leigh buses. I used them on the Warrington service when I was doing my post-graduate teacher training at Padgate in the mid ’70s. One or two were still in blue and cream but orange and white was the order of the day. [For new vehicles, I think SELNEC/GMT orange and white was actually quite good even though it did spoil older vehicles in “better” municipal colours.]
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 12:24
As I’ve already said I quite liked the Renown’s, but by the time they came to us most of the routes for which they would have been ideally suited had either gone over to, or were in the process of being changed to OPO, as for them having “a head of steam” they could clip on a bit, and unlike the PD3’s, where after a prolonged spell of stop start braking where the brakes become a tad warm and tend to fade, you could guarantee the Renown’s would stop when asked to.
Ronnie Hoye
29/08/12 – 12:24
East Lancs also bodied Renowns for Leicester in both front and rear entrance versions on of the front entrance ones regularly appeared on the rally circuit 190 DBC 190C. My own favourite Renowns were the ones owned by East Yorks in their traditional livery complete with modified upper deck window pillars to negotiate Beverly Bar.
Chris Hough
29/08/12 – 12:26
Regarding the beautiful East Lancs-bodied Leigh Renowns, Philip Halstead mentions there is a forward entrance example preserved at the Manchester Museum. Their rear entrance Renowns were always great favourites of mine ever since I saw the front and rear view photographs of one of them in Buses Illustrated when new. In 1976 I bought 28 (1975 TJ) for preservation from GMPTE, but in the 1980’s sold it and it then passed through several subsequent owners – maintaining a very low profile in the process. Only last week I learned that it been acquired by Tony Blackman for continued preservation, and who knows…..maybe operation in his Yorkshire Heritage Buses wedding hire fleet, though I do hope that it doesn’t turn black and white in the process. The beautiful azure blue and cream Leigh livery would be very much in demand by would-be happy couples I would imagine – it would match the bridesmaids’ dresses and floral arrangements !
John Stringer
30/08/12 – 06:49
Leigh 28 at Luddenden Foot, it has been working hard this summer for Yorkshire Heritage Buses. This shot was on her first day in service and as can be seen it is in black & white John.
Geoff S
30/08/12 – 07:09
Here is a picture of fellow Renown AJA 129B in Manchester, en route to Alderley in true North Western days. I have to admit that personally I much preferred the North Western Loline IIIs to the Renowns in both appearance and performance, but it would be nice to be able to detect something of the variety and individuality of the psv designs of those times in the present day crop of tediously indistinguishable bus types.
Roger Cox
31/08/12 – 07:33
Thanks Geoff S. for sending the photo. I hadn’t realised its restoration had advanced so far, I may well then have seen it at a distance and mistaken it for the ex-Southampton Regent V. As for the livery……….I’ll say no more.
John Stringer
31/08/12 – 09:35
Black marks for the new livery, then, John?
David Oldfield
31/08/12 – 09:45
Is black a good colour for a wedding or do they do funerals as well.
Spencer
So where have you been for the past year and a bit? Have you forgot how to send emails?
Peter
31/08/12 – 12:28
It’s a dual-purpose vehicle, Spencer; white for weddings; black for funerals!
Chris Hebbron
31/08/12 – 12:29
Tony Blackman’s “new” livery is in fact that of Lockey of West Auckland, and presumably was prompted by his acquisition of a full-fronted Regent V/Park Royal which (although new to East Kent) had been operated by that famous County Durham independent. That particular vehicle also carries Lockeys titles while the rest of the heritage fleet don’t. We all have a lot to thank Tony for – in my personal case for an unforgettable ride through the Mersey Tunnel on his ex-Halifax Regent III. What a pity that his revived Halifax JOC no longer operates stage services in the original glorious livery!
Neville Mercer
31/08/12 – 12:30
I suppose so David, but the thought of how it could have looked in its proper livery leaves me feeling blue.
John Stringer
31/08/12 – 12:32
The black and cream livery used by Yorkshire heritage buses is derived from the colours on a former East Kent AEC Regent V which is in the livery of its last owner Lockey of St Helens Auckland I saw the ex Darlington Guy saloon in the livery recently and it looked very good indeed. Better in a livery than a scrap yard!
Chris Hough
02/09/12 – 07:10
The trouble with Bridgemasters and lowheight Renowns was that there was no inward tapering at the front, creating a profile that was squat and square. That’s why the Beverley Bar treatment is such an improvement – it adds a much-needed bit of shape. Don’t forget Northern Counties www.flickr.com/
Peter Williamson
03/10/12 – 06:07
I used to drive these Renowns, 127b, & 129b, in the 60s at the North Western Altrincham Depot , a nice drive but a bit on the ‘Bouncy’ side!!
Roger Williams
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
13/11/12 – 08:44
I was a summer guard with NWRCC at Glossop Garage between 1960 and 1962. It was the guard that operated the lights at the Norfolk Arms terminus and you had to be mighty quick to get back to the platform, clutching Setright and money bag to grasp the platform pole before the driver moved off. Bristol K5G’s were OK but a PD2 was fast off the mark and you held on like grim death for the swing round. Those were the days – swinging loads on the old 125 to Manchester and overloads on the 85 to Buxton on summer days. It was a great company with great mates at Glossop depot. Public service at its best!
Roger Chadwick
13/11/12 – 12:57
Roger, be thankful it was a PD2 and not a trolleybus or you’d have been left standing.
Ronnie Hoye
23/11/12 – 10:03
Roger, Myself and two colleagues have been researching the North Western driver and conductor duties. Would you have kept any information when you worked at Glossop in the 60’s
Keith Hampton
22/01/13 – 06:33
Roger, Being one of the Two colleagues that Keith refers to can you supply any names of staff at all. All part of an on going, and growing, North Western project of ours.
Crosville Motor Services 1963 AEC Renown 3B3RA Park Royal H43/32F
Despite acquiring a good number of AEC Reliance single deckers during the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, North Western Road Car Co. had opted for the Dennis Loline for its double deck purchases during that period. It then perhaps came as a surprise when in late 1963 they received eighteen AEC Renowns (964-981, VDB 964-981) with Park Royal H43/32F bodies, followed by a further fifteen (115-129, AJA 115-129B) with H42/30F bodies in 1964. However in 1972 the NWRCC depots and operations at Stockport, Oldham, Glossop, Altrincham and Urmston passed to the SELNEC PTE, a separate company – the SELNEC Cheshire Bus Company Ltd. – being created to take over these along with an appropriate number of vehicles. All other depots and operations were taken over by Crosville, except those at Buxton and Matlock which passed to Trent, and the Manchester depot which was retained as a coaching unit only before forming the basis of National Travel (North West) in 1974. The Renown fleet was divided between Crosville and SELNEC Cheshire, who soon repainted them into their own liveries. Here we see one of each – Crosville DAA501 (VDB 964) formerly 964 and SELNEC Cheshire 9122 (AJA 122B) formerly 122, posed for an enthusiasts’ visit to Northwich depot. The Crosville bus displays the recently introduced brighter green livery. AJA 122B was later withdrawn following a low bridge accident, but sold to Churchbridge Motors of Cannock, Staffordshire, who had it repaired by Lawton Coachworks and ran it in their blue and white livery for a time.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
05/06/17 – 07:00
The change in vehicle policy by certain BET companies that became evident from about 1960 derived from BET central purchasing decisions which saw virtually all manufacturers other than AEC and Leyland being “delisted” as approved suppliers of heavyweight chassis, though Daimler was added later when the merits of the Fleetline in comparison with the early Atlantean became apparent. The last Dennis Lolines for North Western, which were delivered early in 1962, would have been ordered about a year before, and (excluding Aldershot & District) they were the the last company orders for that chassis. The A&D case is rather special in that the shareholding for that firm was split into three roughly equal parts, BET, THC and private ownership, which allowed a degree of independent policy in purchasing matters, hence the arrival of Lolines up to 1965.
Roger Cox
06/06/17 – 06:58
To amplify and expand on Roger’s comments, NWRCC’s purchase of the Renowns was the end of a saga started when, as part of he 1947 Transport Act, North Western found itself in the BET camp on 1/1/1948. Denied of its beloved Gardner engined Bristols, the last of which arrived in 1950,it worked with Atkinson to build a Bristol/Gardner clone. When the first small batch proved successful it applied to BET for a sanction to buy 100 more. When this was denied and NWRCC found themselves “stuck” with the groups AEC/Leyland purchasing policy, it had already decided to rebody the bulk of its Bristols and Gardner engined Guys. With double deckers forming the minority of the fleet the rebodied Bristols and Guys were added to by small batches of PD2s. By 1958 something more modern was needed and using Aldershot and District’s purchase of Dennis Lolines as a precedent, bought two batches of the Lodekka clone at a time when BET’s low height double decker preference was the Bridgemaster. Given the poor response to the Bridgemaster, AEC refined its ideas and produced the Renown. By this time many BET companies had bought the low height version of the Atlantean and NWRCC had tried both Atlantean and Fleetline demonstrators. With its low height potential, a straight through upper deck gangway and, more importantly, a Gardner engine, the Fleetline was NWRCC’s choice. For the third time in just over a decade the company found itself at odds with BET’s policy of ordering Leylands and AECs. Whilst the Atkinson episode ended with NWRCC’s Chief Engineer resigning, 1962 saw the order for Fleetlines agreed. But there was a quid pro quo. BET had discount arrangements with both AEC and Leyland and the take up of Renowns had not been enough to meet agreed targets. The first two Fleetline orders were reduced from the numbers required, the numbers being made up with Renowns and, with NWRCC’s single deck policy from 1962 being wedded to the Leyland Leopard, the company took a large batch of AEC Reliances which were offset for discount purposes against the reluctance of BET companies to purchase the Renown. As it turned out, the Renowns were very satisfactory. They also looked good in the Crosville livery as shown, the black wheels and mudguards contrasting with the green.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/06/17 – 05:35
I never realised the unusual financial makeup of A&D, Roger. And London Transport’s is another one. I assume it was in some sort of public ownership, yet it seemed to have shareholders, because Frank Pick resigned from his post in 1940 because he felt the they were not getting a fair deal at that time. If anybody can shed light on this, I’d appreciate it.
Chris Hebbron
07/06/17 – 05:37
A few extra points to Phil’s comprehensive comment. North Western was set up in 1924 when BAT and Tilling, who were then operating together in harmony, reallocated their resources in the area by forming the new company centred on Stockport. In practice, the Tilling philosophy prevailed in operating matters, and this was reflected in vehicle purchasing policies. Tilling-Stevens models were favoured during the late 1920s until 1931, by which time Tilling had ended its financial involvement with the Maidstone maker and acquired the Bristol Tramways & Carriage Company together with its manufacturing arm. Under Tilling’s abrasive new Chairman, J.F. Heaton, Bristol became the preferred chassis supplier for Tilling companies, including North Western, who adopted the make as standard from 1936. In 1942, the fractious association of BAT/BET and Heaton finally disintegrated, and companies were reallocated between the two groups. Rather surprisingly, given the strong Tilling direction of its management policies, North Western was allotted to the BET empire, but apart from some Guy wartime utilities, Bristol continued to be the chosen chassis make until nationalisation led to the withdrawal of that supplier from the open market. As Phil indicates above, North Western sought a “Bristol/Gardner clone” by approaching Atkinson, but BET top brass were having none of it, and the company had to conform with the AEC/Leyland regime of its group masters. Quite how North Western managed to succeed in its choice of the Dennis Loline (I quibble at the description “Lodekka clone” – the Loline III in particular incorporated several design improvements over the Bristol) I know not, but the Loline proved to be a good machine for North Western. More might well have been ordered had BET not enforced its AEC/Leyland diktat. Another factor could have been the decision taken by Dennis in 1962 to withdraw the Loline from the market, but this might well have been a chicken and egg issue influenced by the enforcement of BET central policies, leaving Dennis with only the Municipal and Independent markets at its disposal. Dennis revoked that idea very quickly, and continued to supply the Loline up to 1967. A comparison of the respective merits of the Loline and the Renown inevitably reflects one’s personal preferences, but in only one feature can the Renown claim an advantage – the incorporation of a synchromesh gearbox making life easier for the driver. On the other hand, the Loline was offered with optional four or five speed gearboxes, and North Western had examples of both. The Renown came with four speeds only, and the North Western ones seem to have had quite a high rear axle ratio which might have left rather wide gaps between the gears on the road. Having driven the Loline III in service with A&D, I am well acquainted with the model’s refined qualities. My experiences of Bridgemasters and Renowns are limited to modest trips as a passenger on the City of Oxford examples, and the Renown seemed to give a rather pitchy ride quality. The harsh engine noise, screaming gearbox note and juddery clutch action reminded me of the closely related Regent V type that I did drive around Halifax. The design was inferior also in that, in the somewhat tortuous driveline, the separate location of the gearbox on the offside behind the driver’s cab dictated the intrusive positioning of the staircase into the entrance platform. I remember the slightly sunken lower deck gangway of the Bridgemaster (like the LD Lodekka and Loline I and II) but cannot now recall if this feature was true also of the Renown – the Loline III had a completely flat floor throughout. (Like much in life, you pays your money and you takes your choice, but I know which I prefer.)
You are quite right, Chris. The London Passenger Transport Board financial structure was not the same as that of outright nationalisation, which did not occur until the London Transport Executive was set up on 1st January 1948. When the LPTB was formed in 1933, the companies taken over, notably the Underground Group and Tilling’s London operations, were “bought” partially with cash and partially by the issue of interest bearing stock – C stock – authorised by the enabling Act, which meant that those former businesses continued to earn yields from their holdings. However, by 1938, the net financial performance of the Board was so weak (partly because of the truly massive investment in high standard Underground equipment and buildings, bus fleet renewal, and a serious strike in 1937) that the future of the entire LPTB concept was temporarily placed in doubt. In the previous two years the Board paid only 4% instead of the agreed rate of 5.1% on the C stock held by the former transport operators, and suggestions were made that a receiver should be appointed run LPTB matters. In fact, the stockholders had not lost any capital value on their holdings as the purchasing terms in 1933 had been somewhat generous. Evolving international events in the months following, which escalated into WW2, led to attention being directed elsewhere, though clearly Frank Pick was not mollified. In the postwar years, London Transport became a component of the Labour government’s nationalisation programme.
Roger Cox
08/06/17 – 07:57
Roger, when I used to hang around Charles St in the late 1950s/early 1960s, I got to know a good number of people in the garage, workshops and offices. In those days there was a culture of encouraging young enthusiasts and I was told many tales by people who had served with the company from pre-war days. From what I was told, the company fought hard to be moved from BET to the Tilling empire once the ramifications of the 1947 Transport Act became clear and at one time was led to believe that a transfer would take place. The story goes that either Crosville or Cumberland, both major Leyland users, would take NWRCC’s place. Now I have never been able to prove the truth of the story with documentary evidence but given the sources, the enthusiasm of NWRCC for Bristol products and its continuing attempts to thwart BET’s purchasing policies it has a ring of truth. As far as calling the Loline a Lodekka clone is concerned, I understood all chassis were produced under licence and whilst the MK3 was very much a Dennis vehicle, the arrangement held. I doubt that NWRCC would have ordered any more Lolines. Its surrounding BET companies were already using Atlanteans and the Fleetline was on the wish list of some of them. Dennis’s temporary withdrawal of the type was probably co-incidental given the Fleetline trials prior to the withdrawal. As I said, and this comes from conversations as late as 1965, the Renowns were a quid pro quo situation and were not a Loline substitute.
Philip Blinkhorn
11/06/17 – 06:08
Chris, I think the last straw for Frank Pick was the compensation enforced by the government for taking control of the railways in wartime. The arrangements for repairs, including war damage, were also harsh. The railways accepted these conditions reluctantly but without protest as fears of an invasion were very much to the fore at the time. Bus services were also slashed with little thought at the outset of the differing conditions of the operators.
David Wragg
09/10/19 – 06:31
Just to add a couple of comments :- On the split of the Company 964 to 969 and 972 to 981 passed to Crosville, whilst 970 and 971 went to Selnec Cheshire. The Selnec Renown carried fleet number 1922 and not 9122. I believe the renumbering of the batch took place after the formation of GMT.
Leekensian
10/10/19 – 05:20
When I first started work the morning journey to Manchester on the 31 was always operated by North Western. Either by any of the Lolines, Renowns or Fleetlines. Without the best and fastest journeys were always those when one the Alexander Bodied Lolines were allocated with Renown operated journeys not far behind on performance
North Western Road Car 1968 Bristol RESL6G Marshall B45F
In its final years, North Western chose the Bristol RE as its standard single deck bus chassis, initially selecting the shorter RESL6G version in 1968 before turning to the longer RELL6G variety from 1969 onwards. The RESL6G saloons numbered forty in total and all came with Marshall bodywork, the first fifteen, Nos 270-284, KJA 270-284F, arriving in January 1968 as B45F. However, Nos 285-309, KJA 285-289F, KJA 290- 309G delivered from July 1968 onwards, had the reduced capacity of B43F. On 1st January 1969 SELNEC PTE was formed, and much of the North Western stage carriage network lay within the designated SELNEC area. After lengthy negotiations, the National Bus Company conceded, and the hatchet finally fell upon North Western in January 1972 when its bus fleet was dismembered, leaving NWRCC as simply a coach operator. Most of the RESL/Marshall buses, including No 282 shown above, passed to SELNEC, but Nos 302 -309 were transferred to Crosville. I am sure that our Lancastrian contributors will be able to tell me the Manchester location of the photograph which was taken in June 1970. One final question – did these buses have Gardner LW or LX engines?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
18/11/18 – 10:41
This is unmistakably in St. Peter’s Square in Manchester and would have to be a tram to make such a manoeuvre now! 282 was one of the batch allocated to Oldham depot and was new in a livery that also had cream window surrounds and, distinctively, cream inside the peaks of the domes as can be seen on sister 281 here: https://davidbeilby Although 281 survived long enough to get the SELNEC Cheshire fleetname as seen in the linked photo, 282 was repainted earlier as I have a picture of it in October 1970 in the above colour scheme. In your photo it seems to be newly-painted. As it’s showing “PRIVATE” it doesn’t give much clue as to why it would be there and it may well be working from Manchester to Oldham depots after having been borrowed. It is also just possible, if it is a morning photograph, that it is returning from working the solitary morning peak journey from Mottram to Manchester Lower Mosley Street that was worked by Oldham – it worked out of service from Manchester back to Oldham depot.
David Beilby
[Administrator note: The link to David’s site, in the above message, is no longer current. If you read this David, please let me know the updated address and I will update this page. Thanks, Nigel (admin)]
20/11/18 – 09:11
It’s not early morning, David. At that point in my life I lived in Farnborough, Hampshire. I would catch an early train from London to undertake my Manchester transport jaunts, so it would be around midday or early afternoon.
Roger Cox
24/11/18 – 06:21
Well, at long last the NWRCC finally got its Bristols once again after more than 20 years. The Central Library in the background of the photo looks far more impressive nowadays now it has been cleaned of all the grime that had accumulated prior to the Clean Air Act. I still have fond memories of the Library: there were many Saturday afternoons I would spend valuable learning time reading Buses Illustrated and Modern Tramway.
David Revis
24/11/18 – 09:56
North Western received its last Bristols, ordered prior to the effect of the nationalisation of Bristol, in late 1950 these being L5Gs 311-32 EDB 311-320 with Weymann B35R bodies. The RESL6Gs were delivered from January 1968, thus the wait for new Bristols was just 17 years, not over 20. Central Library was cleaned in 1971.
Phil Blinkhorn
25/11/18 – 06:51
The photo was taken in June 1970 and the bus looks freshly repainted. Could that explain why it is where it is? Would it have been repainted in Manchester?
Peter Williamson
15/04/19 – 07:13
To answer the question on engines, they had Gardner 6HLX engines. I have close personal experience of this, being the owner of the surviving member of the batch 299! For obvious reasons I’ve collected a lot of photos of this batch, and I’ve found that quite a few were repainted from the “more cream” style to the one we see here when quite young. My speculation (no more than that) is that the Marshall paint job wasn’t especially good, these bodies being built down to a price, and North Western gave them a repaint in the by-then current style when only about three years old. To answer Peter Williamson’s question, it’s almost certain that it would have been repainted at the company‘s Works at Charles Street in Stockport and could – conceivably – have been photographed on its way back to Oldham from the repaint.
Paul Williams
16/04/19 – 09:00
Travelling from Charles St to Oldham via St Peter’s Sq is a long way round. In 1970 the shortest route would have been Charles St-Bredbury-Denton-Ashton-Oldham. Roger says the photo was taken mid day or early afternoon. There are a number of possibilities. David Beilby’s first suggestion; as we can’t determine the driver, some sort of engineer’s run though why go into Manchester?; if this was a Saturday (the lights are on in the library, so not a Sunday), returning from a private hire where the vehicle is not required for a return run, such as taking people from the Oldham area to an event at the close by Free Trade Hall that runs until late evening or returning from delivering people who have been visiting the Oldham area to wherever. Again, it could have run into Manchester as a duplicate on a trans Pennine service and was not required beyond Lower Mosley St or on the return. We’ll never know
Phil Blinkhorn
26/04/19 – 09:44
My own theory on why the bus is in Manchester is that having come out of the paintshop the driver may have been asked to deliver some urgent mail to Lower Mosley Street. It was common practice to send mail on service buses between depots. Oldham Depot only had two AM journeys that returned private back to Oldham. The first was a mentioned by David Beilby. The number 6 duplicate from Mottram. The other journey worked the service 503 from Adswood into the City. Prior to this journey it worked a journey from Ashton-under-Lyne to Hazel Grove (Mirrlees Works). Just a thought.
Keith Hampton
27/04/19 – 13:24
My father was one of the 116 workers entitled to use this service from the newly closed Ashton National Works to Mirrlees. At least in the early days this must have required 2 buses, perhaps one for works and a later one for offices. I presume the service ended at some point after most of the entitled moved or bought cars. Do you know how the return journey late afternoon was organised?
Tony Johnson
28/04/19 – 08:06
Thanks for explaining the origins of this Mirrlees works service. It’s pretty obvious now you mention it but not something I had thought about too much before. There were two morning journeys from the information I have (which I think is the same that Keith Hampton has). It seems logical that there was an afternoon return service but this does not appear in the Oldham depot schedules, so one concludes it was worked by someone else. Either another North Western depot or another operator (jointly).
David Beilby
03/05/19 – 07:11
Tony Johnson mentions that at least 2 vehicles must have been required for this service. I can confirm that this was the case, and both journeys were worked by Oldham Garage. According to my list of Oldham duties:- One Double Decker (Crew duty 23) departed Ashton Bus Station at 07:05, and a Single Decker (OMO duty 29) at 07:50. On arrival at Mirrlees both buses then operated from Adswood to Chorlton Street. Would it have been the case, do you think, that these 2 Adswood journeys would have operated to Lower Mosley Street before the closure of LMS? If that was the case then 282 was possibly heading back to Oldham after completing it work. There is no mention of PM journeys from Mirrlees in the Oldham duties.
Stephen Howarth
04/05/19 – 06:31
Stephen, the use of LMS is a distinct possibility.
Phil Blinkhorn
04/05/19 – 06:32
Unfortunately, Stephen, Roger has already pointed out that he would not have been in Manchester early enough for that to be the case. I think that there were afternoon journeys but not worked by Oldham. I have a photograph of 932 on this service in April 1972 and that wasn’t an Oldham car at the time, but I don’t know to which depot it was allocated. It’s more likely to be an afternoon shot but I don’t actually know.
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
