Taken in the summer of 1963 in the Old Steine area of Brighton this photo is of Southdown 756 one of a batch of ten Leyland PD2/12’s with Northern Counties H30/26RD bodies No’s 755-764 delivered in 1953. These always appeared wider and heavier than any of the other four body builders used by Southdown on their PD2/12 fleet No’s 701-812 the others being Leyland (my personal favourites) 701-754, Park Royal 765-776, Beadle (on Park Royal frames) 777-788 and East Lancs 789-812 Southdown’s last half cabs. Prior to these came No 700 the well known coach bodied PD2/12 with Northern Counties FCH28/16RD body which was trialled on London express services from Eastbourne somewhat unsuccessfully due to body roll and a sluggish performance. This was Southdown’s only 4 bay D/D body and also had small extra windows above the lower deck half drops and quarter lights in the roof.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
19/05/14 – 09:19
What an odd mixture of styles. The panelling and the roof look like a throwback to the 1930s the foremost and rearmost nearside upper deck windows and the half drop windows have a touch of RT about them yet the front upper deck windows are totally NCME.
Phil Blinkhorn
19/05/14 – 15:39
The Southdown PD2s (701-812) were buses I grew up with in Portsmouth, being seen on a daily basis, although not so frequently used due to my school route being along Copnor Road. Southdown did not have a regular service along that road, so I relied on Portsmouth Corporation routes. The NCME members of that series were my “least favourites”, as they all seemed rather “dark” inside. Were the windows smaller? However, they must have been good buses, as Southdown had “discovered” NCME with some of it’s Guy utilities and early post war Arab IIIs, and followed later by 285 Queen Mary’s. When they were new, we didn’t know them as Queen Mary’s, though. I only became familiar with the term many years later (c.1979). Diesel Dave also refers to 700, the PD2/NCME coach. It’s final years were spent at Bognor, and I saw it several times parked in the yard at the back. It didn’t seem well used! Rather a shame when other operators like Ribble and EYMS made good use of a small fleet of double-deck coaches. It’s a puzzle that Southdown didn’t succeed when others could, and did.
Michael Hampton
19/05/14 – 17:59
I also grew up with the Southdown PD2/12’s on Route 22 (Brighton – Midhurst) travelling to school at Steyning, and vesting grandparents in Brighton. NCME bodied ones were my least favourite, and agree with Michael that they always appeared dark inside, probably due to the brown rexine panelling and varnished wood strip below the window line, and also the half glazed doors. Southdown specified half drop windows up to 1955. All 1956 deliveries of PD2’s and Arab IV’s had sliding vents. My favourites were the East Lancs versions. These had fully glazed sliding doors, and the platform areas were finished in green rather than the murky brown previously used.
Roy Nicholson
09/01/15 – 05:52
Like Michael Hampton, I also grew up in Portsmouth riding the PD2/12’s. A big thank you to Diesel Dave for the data on the bodywork. One thing that has been bugging me for years – which of the bodies had the sliding door?
Southdown Motor Services Ltd 1950 Leyland PD2/12 Northern Counties FCH28/16RD
In the post about Southdown’s Leyland Titan PD2 756 (MUF 456), Diesel Dave made mention of Southdown’s one-off 700 and Michael Hampton said he saw it in Bognor Depot’s Yard. KUF 700 was Southdown’s 700, a 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/12 with Northern Counties FCH28/16RD bodywork and was intended to be the first of a fleet of such vehicles for use on express services from the South Coast to London. It began work on the Eastbourne to London service, but proved totally unsuitable, suffering excessive body-roll and under-performance, being overweight and therefore under-powered. By 1952, it was relegated to private hire and bus work. This photo was taken at Bognor Depot in 1959, with the bus still looking remarkably chipper and still possessing its coach seats, although with its roof lights painted over. In this limbo situation, it somehow survived in service until 1966, when it was taken into Portslade works for conversion to a breakdown tender, but the work remained unfinished and the vehicle languished there for some six years, eventually being scrapped there in 1973. Sixteen years active life for a bus, which was somewhat of an embarrassment, could be considered quite an achievement, as it happens. The lower front bears a definite resemblance to Southdown’s later Queen Mary’s and the body, as a whole, still has the overall look of NCME’s pre-war models, notably the Leicester AEC Renowns of 1939, a design not destined to last much longer.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
15/01/15 – 06:10
It is wonderful to see Chris’s colour photo of Southdown 700 as I only have a B/W photo which I bought in 1958 from the late Eric Surfleet of Lancing. This shows 700 on an excursion still in it’s original livery which had green window surrounds and the usual dark green lining on the horizontal beading also the corner bumpers on the front and rear,the bumpers are still on the front at least even after it’s repaint. The top deck coving panels were I believe always translucent and not clear glass. Sad to say despite living in the area at the time, and attending school in Hailsham which was on it’s route, I don’t recall seeing this fine vehicle.
Diesel Dave
15/01/15 – 09:31
Thanks to Chris for the great colour shot of 700, and Diesel Dave for it in it’s earlier more public life. As I said in the earlier posting, my usual sightings of it were c. 1960-62, and it was always in the Bognor yard. But it was always in a different position, so clearly saw some use. It does seem strange that East Yorkshire and Ribble operated a small fleet of such vehicles with (presumably) some success, while Southdown, usually effective in their plans, found they could not make 700 work on the coach work originally envisaged. A fleet of such vehicles on the 31 had to wait until the Queen Mary PD3s arrived, and they didn’t have coach seats!
Michael Hampton
15/01/15 – 10:32
What a wonderful photo – thanks Chris for posting it. As many readers will know, this vehicle has generated interested on the SCT61 website and it is good to see these two further views of this magnificent coach. When it was downgraded to bus duties, did it keep the luggage areas in the lower saloon? If so, a capacity of just 16 must have been a major factor in its demise. A similar fate befell the East Yorkshire and Ribble d/d coaches but at least they managed to get 20 and 22 seats respectively in their lower saloons.
Paul Haywood
15/01/15 – 11:21
Following Michael H’s comments, here’s a photo of a Leyland PD2 49-seat Ribble White Lady. There were 50 of them, in two batches, with bodies (5-bay) by Burlingham and 4-bay East Lancs ones. There seems an irony to put a lowbridge body on a so-called coach, but it did not seem to affect custom!. Ribble – //tinyurl.com/os4f47k And here’s a photo of East Yorkshire’s Leyland PD2 with Roe normal height body. East Yorkshire – //www.sct61.org.uk/ey568 There was something very satisfying about double-deck coach design of this period, even conventional half-cab types. I recall the West Yorkshire version of a Bristol K6B Scarborough Express, way down the OBP page, the upper photo, not the lower abomination! SEE //tinyurl.com/ono24n2
Chris Hebbron
23/02/15 – 14:31
I remember 700 KUF 700 very well as a school boy in Bognor yard where I spent most of my after school time. Bob Mustchin the foreman in the garage took me under his wing and many a time I helped him shunt it around the yard when it been dumped from a private hire or bus relief working. This led to me buying one of the left luggage offices D689 HCD 449 which has been fantastically restored now by Bob Gray. The yard has a vivid memory for me with a flint stone boundary with access only through the bus station rear doors until the retail development created an entrance from Queeensway giving access directly into the yard and changing the in/out pattern for local services and coaches. I remember the transition from TD5’s TS7/8’s with PD2 1’s through to underfloor Leylands and the arrival of PD2/12’s to PD 3’s
Clifford Jones
13/03/15 – 07:12
I have posted my memories of this vehicle already however I would like to add that the B/W photo of it showing an excursion blind in taken in Bognor Regis High Street with 700 heading west as Lloyds bank is in the background. My family banked there with the International store visible to the right including trees in the foreground which were a feature in the High Street of that era. I have a photo of 700 solitarily languishing in the corner of Bognor yard against a corner of the flint wall overshadowing the Queensway development which would shortly see the demise of the wall. My memories of Southdown in Bognor my birth place are being prepared.
Clifford Jones
13/03/15 – 16:52
I, for one, will look forward to your jottings of Southdown in Bognor Regis, Clifford. I lived in Pompey for 20 years, the Western boundary of Southdown. I travelled on its two most Westerly routes (I think), from Portsmouth to Warsash and Portsmouth to the somewhat mundane place name, Meon Hut! Your mention of International Stores reminds me of all the other grocery stores of the time: Home & Colonial, Pearks, Maypole Dairies, David Greig and, of course, Sainsbury, before it became a supermarket. Other, later stores/supermarkets were MacFisheries (our first local supermarket), Victor Value (bought by Tesco), Bejam, Kwiksave and Somerfield. But I digress!
Chris Hebbron
14/03/15 – 12:50
Chris, you left out Lipton’s, another of the names from our nostalgic past before the present age of bland uniformity.
Roger Cox
14/03/15 – 16:14
Chris, the place you are thinking of west of Portsmouth on a Southdown route is the West Meon Hut. It’s a pub at the junction of the A32 and A272. The actual West Meon village is nearby. A friend of mine once owned an RM stored near here, and it could be a useful venue once we returned from a rally day when the RM had finished it’s day out. I don’t think the Southdown route terminated here, though short workings might have done. It was the 38, and in the 1950’s I remember Guy Arab utilities thundering up Southwick Hill Road out of Cosham heading for Southwick, Wickham and Droxford. At some point a railway closure entered the picture, and the route was extended to Alton. However, the usual buses then were saloons, such as the 1500 series Royal Tigers or 620 series Tiger Cubs. Strangely, I don’t recall these so well, but have seen photos in various Southdown books in my collection. I too will be interested to see Clifford’s Bognor Regis notes – I was always fascinated with the occasional visit to Chichester and Bognor with their own set of routes down to the Witterings, Sidlesham, etc.
Michael Hampton
16/03/15 – 06:43
Roger C – I should have remembered Liptons, but there wasn’t one around my area. Michael H – It was a 1500 series Royal Tiger around 1964, after they’d been converted to OMO operation. I went with GF and friend with his GF, too. We had lunch at the pub there. The bus performed well, but was a bit creaky, I recall. Nice-looking vehicles, though. You mention the austerity Guy Arabs thundering up the hill. Did they have 5 or 6LW engines, or a mixture of both, or did Southdown upgrade them at some time. I only travelled on them to and from the Hayling Ferry, when they were open-toppers and never noticed what they were on dead-flat Hayling Island!
Chris Hebbron
16/03/15 – 11:54
Chris, I don’t recall whether the Guys I remember had 5LW or 6LW engines. I don’t have access to my SEC books at the moment, but I think Southdown had a mixture as new in the war, and they did swap engines around afterwards, too. Will have to investigate later, unless others have more immediate knowledge.
Michael Hampton
17/03/15 – 06:16
Economic, Grandways, Gateway (didn’t they become Somerfield?), Hillards, and perhaps most recently Jacksons. I think Economic, Grandways, and Hillards were local to the Yorkshire area. I wonder if there is an “Old Grocery Photos” website where people are posting “not really to do with grocery shops but County Motors . . .”. Local ITV stations seem to have disappeared. One, very small, thing that seems to have bucked the trend is bus stop flags: the old Department for the Environment standard style of the early 1970s now seems to be in retreat in many places . . . such a shame about the buses stopping at them.
Philip Rushworth
17/03/15 – 16:49
They must be Yorkshire ones, Philip, I’ve only heard of Gateway/Somerfield, the latter of which has become the Co-op. I believe, which we’ve all heard of! The simple black on white bus stop flags are disappearing fast, in favour of ‘busy’ multi-coloured ones where the bus image is hardly discernable; at least that’s ‘the Stagecoach way’. I thought the original ones were an early attempt at helping those with impaired vision – they certainly don’t help now!
Chris Hebbron
18/03/15 – 06:58
This is only the beginning… Maypole, Meadow Dairy, Gallons, Thrift Stores, Melias, Home & Colonial… then there were the prominent grocers/bakers in every town – Arthur Davy in Sheffield, Hagenbachs, Hodgson & Hepworths in Doncaster, Vaux Bros in Ponty (Chris), Websters in Wakefield, Silvios in Bradford… how do I connect this to Old Bus Photos? Many Doncaster Corporation Buses had a big sunburst tween decks, advertising Dysons Flour, and these seemed always to be on derelict deckers in scrapyards or the “bus” ? canteen at Marshgate in Doncaster which peeped over the North Bridge Wall. How accurate is that bit of nostalgia therapy?
Joe
18/03/15 – 06:59
I’ve found some facts about the utility Guys and here are a few pertinent ones. Southdown received 100 examples: only the first two were Arab I’s. About 25% in total received 6LW engines, randomly supplied. Many 6LW-engined ones had engine swaps with 5LW engines before disposal. Not all open-topped conversions were fitted with 6LW engines, but those climbing to Beachy Head were. All the Arabs had gone by 1964. One survives into preservation.
Chris Hebbron
19/03/15 – 07:11
Thanks Chris H for the 5LW/6LW info – I’m away from my resources until the end of the month! The Portsmouth Arabs may have been 5LWs as delivered as Pompey is a flat area (Southwick Hill Road being a minor exception, although all cars bound for Waterlooville and northwards would have had the slog up the main London Road). However by the late 50’s those used on the 38 to Droxford etc may well have been upgraded. Just listening to some of the Guy Arabs in the sounds section of this site is an aural delight, too.
Michael Hampton
19/03/15 – 07:12
Bus stop signs: The bus logo on the stop plate was not for visibility. When introduced it formed part of the TRO (Traffic regulation order) that made parking restrictions enforceable – which is why it has the same outline as the bus on bus lane signs. Whether legislation has changed since I don’t know.
Alan Murray-Rust
12/04/15 – 07:10
Thank you for your comments while waiting for my observations. I was born in Bognor Regis in 1947 when my parents moved down from Croydon. My mother had a dress making shop with a flat above opposite the General Post Office which is how I became a bus enthusiast looking out of the window at the Southdown pre war buses stopping opposite and the occasional appearance of a Green Goddess fire engine when the siren went off. My memories are currently being compiled taking me from an enthusiast to a bus operator in Brighton. Look out for it on Classic Bus web site SCT’6.
Clifford Jones
09/01/16 – 17:46
Hi, just seen this article and comments. I remember this bus being in the Bognor area when I was young and for a while it ran on the 31 Portsmouth to Brighton service, and at the time was common knowledge that it had been exhibited at the Festival of Britain on the South Bank, showing the future of British Transport. Assuming this is correct then it is a pity it came to a disappointing end.
Brian Allsopp
10/01/16 – 05:57
Alan, with regard to your post of March 2015 [which I seem to have missed] in respect of the bus stop poles and signs, they are in the Department For Transport’s (or whatever that outfit is called this week!) Traffic Signs Manual, which prescribes the assorted outlines typefaces and dimensions. The picture of the bus was supposed to be the right sign before I retired, and it was black on a white background. Yes, I know, an increasing number of operators use their own, which makes me wonder if the rules have changed in the not too distant past! Equally, the post ‘shall’ – the manual used to say – be black or silver. So much for the operator’s livery colour!
Pete Davies
10/01/16 – 10:53
I always imagined that bold ‘black bus on white background’ consistency was introduced to help those with sight impairment, entirely logical, but perhaps misguided by the way it’s fast disappearing. Stagecoach are introducing such multi-coloured ones with fancy writing/numbers, that I, who suffer from colour-blindness, has difficulty making out the dedicated route numbers on the various signs. I must look out for the manual you mention, Pete. Maybe I can throw a spanner in the works!
Chris Hebbron
11/01/16 – 09:26
Paul H (15/01/15 – 10:32) implies that, like Southdown’s KUF 700, Ribble’s early post-war double-deck coaches were, in due course, downgraded to buses. In fact, that only happened in respect of the first 30 (2518-47: BRN 261-90 – later renumbered 1201-30), which were actually PD1/3, only the last 20 being PD2/3. From the mid-1950s they were demoted to bus work, with the luggage pens replaced by seats, presumably raising capacity to 53. They were also repainted in bus livery, but I understand that these things (demoting/increasing capacity/repainting) did not necessarily all occur at the same time. After becoming buses, they were particularly associated with Ribble’s Furness operating area. The later PD2/3s (1231-50: DCK 202-21) were never downgraded to buses, they remained on medium distance express services until replaced by Atlanteans 1266-85 (RRN 415-34) in 1962.
David Call
11/01/16 – 13:37
Brian A above says No 700 was at the Festival of Britain in 1951. I’m not sure about that, as I thought it was one of the standard Leyland-bodied PD2/12s on show at that event. In C. Carter’s book “The Heyday of the Bus, the Postwar Years”, there is a picture of No.701 (KUF 701) on a plinth there. This was the first of 24 such vehicles, followed by another 30 (Later ones had bodies by other makers). If 700 visited as well, was it just on an excursion, or was it an additional exhibit?
Michael Hampton
15/12/18 – 06:38
I was a regular in Bognor Regis bus garage from 1964 to 1973 and I never saw KUF 700 do any other work than an occasional schools bus service.
This bus must of been brand new when I took this picture it certainly looks that way. If I remember correctly Middlesbrough Corporation used route letters rather than route numbers which was quite novel. I think they only had 2 single deckers in there fleet this one and its sister which was fleet no 2.
I was in the depot at the time this one was delivered. It was put in the paint shop. It smelt lovely. I remember it like yesterday. It and No 2 ran the S route to Seamer.
Chris Johnson
18/07/11 – 17:15
Unhappy memories of this bus! When I was about 14 I used to visit a friend in Newby and get the ‘S’ home, getting off at Kirby School. One Saturday Roman Road was closed so the route was diverted down Orchard Road and The Avenue, then up St Barnabas Road to re-join Roman Road/Ayresome Green Lane. Because the bus stop by the Conservative Club in Orchard Road was closer to home I thought I’d get off there, but the miserable driver wouldn’t stop as it wasn’t a normal stop, and instead took me all the way up to the General Hospital before he’d let me off, giving me a really long walk home. I never trusted bus drivers after that!
I do not have many photos of rear engined buses they did not have the same charisma has the front engined buses, a little bit boxy for me. Although this Northern Counties body on this bus does look good, mind you I think it was brand new at the time I took the photo. According to the fleet lists I researched the information from for this bus it is classed as a highbridge body but the fleet number ends in an “L” which would suggest lowbridge so why the “L”? If you know, let me know, please leave a comment. Photo taken again at the old Bradford bus station, and the bus in the background is an AEC Regent V of Yorkshire Woollen District.
The term “lowbridge” or “highbridge” refers to whether or not the bus has a sunken offside or a central gangway on the upper deck, and not to the overall height of the bus. Any bus with a drop-centre rear axle (Lodekka, Fleetline, later Atlanteans etc. can be lower in overall height than one with a conventional straight rear axle and still have a centre gangway upstairs, at the expense of a more complicated floor layout in the lower saloon. Tracky were plagued by lots of low bridges, so they nearly always went for the low height option, and the fleet number code was intended to tell staff where the bus could safely go, rather than the seating layout.
David A Jones
That’s a lovely picture of a Tracky bus and shows a service which disappeared some time ago. The 66 service to Sheffield was a marathon and took 2 hours and 44 minutes to get from one end to the other. It was split in the late sixties and after that Sheffield C fleet double-deckers, which also worked the service, were no longer seen in Bradford. Yorkshire Traction took a brief break before returning with joint operation of a revised Huddersfield to Bradford via Cleckheaton service in the early seventies.
David Beilby
The PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans had the Albion Lowlander drop axle and a Daimler gearbox. Early PDR1/1s were not particularly good or reliable – especially compared with PD Titans – but the nadir was reached with drop axle versions. It took until 1972 for Leyland to produce another top quality bus, the AN68 Atlantean, which never had a drop axle version. [By that time, Leyland offered either the Daimler Fleetline or Bristol VRT for this option.]
David Oldfield
The PDR1/3 wasn’t something to be proud about as a manufacturer. If I remember rightly there were only somewhere just over eighty built and it was pretty bad. The Fleetline was a much better proposition.
Andrew
27/02/11 – 17:06
The 66 service, and also the 67 Sheffield – Barnsley -Leeds, disappeared in April 1971 as part of an NBC reorganisation, and Sheffield buses then no longer ran north of Barnsley. Sheffield JOC and “Tracky” were joint operators on both routes, with Yorkshire Woollen on the 66 and West Riding on the 67. Part of the 66 route became “Tracky” service 109 Barnsley – Dewsbury.
Geoff Kerr
27/02/11 – 21:00
Strictly speaking, Sheffield JOC disappeared in 1970, with the formation of NBC – which is why Yorkshire Woollen received the C Fleet buses (including PD2/ECW and PDR1/Weymann). Sheffield did continue going north of Barnsley, but on the White Rose Express which eventually faded until the pre-Stagecoach private Yorkshire Traction axed it within the last ten years. Tracky used ex-Lincoln double deck coaches in latter days.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
Yes, I should have written “and Sheffield Corporation buses (which took over the JOC share of the 65/66/67 after its winding up in 1970) no longer ran north of Barnsley on a local stopping service.” Interestingly, I’ve just come across a photograph taken in 1967 of a Sheffield Corporation Atlantean at Bradford working the 66. This was either working off mileage accumulated on Corporation A routes by C fleet buses or maybe the depot had nothing else to send out.
Geoff Kerr
03/03/11 – 08:50
Geoff, your 1967 Atlantean could have been doing both. I have a picture of PDR2/1/Park Royal 193 (WWB 193G) on a demonstration loan to someone on service 26 to Bradshaw. (I’m sure someone will tell me where.)
David Oldfield
24/08/11 – 08:26
David, Service 26 to Bradshaw – that will be Halifax. Halifax Corporation/JOC operated Fleetlines but had no Atlanteans – presumably they wanted to try one.
Geoff Kerr
10/12/11 – 12:27
Just a comment regarding the Daimler Fleetline vehicles which were operated by “Tracky” I drove these vehicles during my time at “Tracky” and hated them, the brakes were very poor with absolutely no pedal “Feel”, quite often the pedal was “on the floor” and the vehicle was just stopping in it`s own time, very disconcerting I can tell you. The steering was vague, and engine performance left a lot to be desired, this just about summed up the general standard of Daimler vehicles.
David Adshead
11/12/11 – 06:45
David, interesting perspective. I would personally agree with you about the Fleetline but it says a lot about the PRD1 Atlantean that people moved away from it in droves towards the Fleetline – especially “Leyland” companies like Tracky.
David Oldfield
11/12/11 – 06:47
If the YTC Fleetlines suffered from poor engine performance, then somebody in the engineering department must have been tinkering with the Gardner engine speed governors to reduce the output in an attempt to lift the mpg. The 1968 batch had 6LXB engines running up to 1850 rpm, but the 6LX motors installed in the earlier Yorkshire Woollen District Fleetlines were certainly not lacking in power if set correctly, even if the modest 1700 rpm governed speed did somewhat limit maximum road performance.
Roger Cox
15/01/17 – 07:18
Just re-visiting this site and read the comment from David Oldfield and Roger Cox regarding the Daimler Fleetlines, it seems pretty obvious to me that they never drove these horrible buses, one in particular (Fleet No 663) was absolutely dire, right from new it had no power, booked off repeatedly for P**S poor performance, it never got any better, on one journey to Highburton near Huddersfield I had to ask the passengers to get off and wait until I came back down the hill because the horrible thing could not manage the hill with 20 or so passengers on board, after serious complaining the company sorted it, they banned the vehicle from further use on that route.
David Adshead
15/01/17 – 11:01
Its amazing how individual drivers have opinions oceans apart on various bus models. For my money, with considerable experience, the Fleetline (Daimler or later Leyland) was the finest of the first generation of rear engined buses – I always loved them, and can’t remember ever driving a really “duff” one.
Chris Youhill
15/01/17 – 11:15
David A, having read your comments on the Fleetline, I must put myself firmly in the camp of David O, and Roger. Before you ask, yes, I have driven Fleetlines a mile or several thousand, and for me they were a far superior vehicle to the PDR1/1 Atlantean. Between 1967 & 1975, I was a driver at NGT Percy Main depot, and we had both Atlanteans and Fleetlines. I left Percy Main in 1975, and I have limited experience of later Atlanteans.
Percy Main Atlantean and Fleetline up to 1968: PDR1/1 Atlantean 1960: CFT 636/644 – 236/244 Weymann DFT 245/249 – 245/249 Roe 1962: FFT 754/761 – 254/261 Roe CRG6LX Fleetline 1963: HFT 366/375 – 266/275 Weymann 1964 JFT 276/280 – 276/280 Weymann 1965 AFT 783/789C – 283/289 Alexander 1967 DFT 290/292E – 290 292 Alexander 1968 EFT 693/702F – 293/302 Alexander
If as you say, your Fleetlines wouldn”t pull, then it must have been the way they were set up. The ones we had didn”t have the top speed of an Atlantean, but even with a full load they were more than capable of keeping pace with the traffic, and as for hill climbing, they could literally leave an Atlantean for dead. The standard of maintenance at P/M was extremely high, nevertheless, breakdowns with an Atlantean were not uncommon, and I lost count of the number of times one packed up on me. I contrast, I can count on one hand with fingers to spare, the amount of time I was let down by a Fleetline. Unfortunately, when NBC came into being, and the lunatics had taken control of the asylum, despite the vehement protests of NGT, most of our Fleetlines were transferred to East Yorkshire Motor Services.
Ronnie Hoye
15/01/17 – 14:55
Yorkshire Tracky PD’s out of Doncaster could, I suggest, tell the same tale as David A’s Fleetlines: they felt sadly underpowered and unlike Doncaster CVD’s, never got a move on: the drivers seemed reluctant to change down- probably because they daren’t drop the revs, so the most modest railway “flyover” hill turned into “can a do it”? What was that about messing with the governors?
Joe
15/01/17 – 16:12
I found this particular thread this morning. My student days were in Birmingham in the mid to late sixties, so after the comparative trials between the Fleetlines and the Atlanteans. It can’t have been just coincidence that they bought Fleetlines and very little else thereafter.
Pete Davies
17/01/17 – 06:56
I suspect decisions to buy Fleetlines rather than Atlanteans were much more often influenced by the availability of Gardner (high torque at low speed and fuel frugal) engines!
Geoff Pullin
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/12/18 – 07:18
All the Atlanteans and Daimlers were fitted with a Semi Automatic gearbox by Self Changing Gears Co Ltd Coventry, they had nothing to do with Daimler other than supplying the gearbox, British Leyland bought the rights to this gearbox and fitted it to all the later BL buses as standard.
David
18/12/18 – 07:14
I assume David’s comment is in response to David Oldfield’s statement that the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans had a Daimler gearbox. When the PDR1/2 first appeared, no less an authority than Alan Townsin wrote: “The gearbox is a Daimler direct selection epicyclic unit, as fitted to the Fleetline, with concentric drive.” (British Double Deckers Since 1942, published 1965) A later article in Commercial Motor magazine, describing the problems Nottingham Corporation had with their PDR1/2 Atlanteans, says: “This model, since dropped by Leyland, employed Daimler epicyclic gearboxes in place of the usual SelfChanging Gears epicyclic box, featuring an output drive on the same side as the input drive of the gearbox and thus facilitating the lower axle installation. Read more at //archive.commercialmotor.com/
Verwood Transport 1966 Guy Arab V 6LW Northern Counties H41/32F
WTE159D is a Guy Arab V with Northern Counties H73F body (well, she did start her life with Lancashire United!) in service with Verwood Transport. The indicator display has been altered to suit a more rural operation, and we see her in the yard at Mallard Road during an open day at the Bournemouth Corporation transport depot on 22 May 1983.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/09/16 – 07:16
This beauty gives one a good idea of what a front entrance Middlesbrough Arab would have looked like. Quite superb in my opinion!
Chris Hough
22/09/16 – 13:21
Thanks, Chris. When Wilts & Dorset took the firm over, they were so impressed that they painted a VR – S suffix so too new for these pages – in Verwood livery. Equally smart.
Pete Davies
22/09/16 – 15:07
I seem to remember that the proprietor of Verwood Transport trained as a driver at Middlesbrough and that’s why he chose the blue livery.
Stephen Allcroft
22/09/16 – 16:42
So, Stephen, a variation on the theme of Managers taking the livery of their former command to their new one – there are several instances in these pages!
Pete Davies
24/09/16 – 07:42
In the early 1980s Verwood was a growing community somewhat neglected by public transport. Hence Andy Wood stepped in to provide services to Poole and Christchurch on different days. As Verwood Transport , he acquired a Leyland PD3 ex Brighton Corporation. This was soon replaced by the Guy Arab shown. Both vehicles and indeed subsequent rear engine vehicles were always worked OMO [as it was known in those days]. The Guy was unique in the area and was much appreciated by passengers and enthusiasts.
Keith Newton
24/09/16 – 07:43
These buses had deep, vertically slatted grilles either side of the destination boxes when they were with LUT. Were they fitted with Cave-Browne-Cave heating equipment when new or were the grilles for some other purpose? Either way, this beautifully presented vehicle has had them removed and replaced with very much smaller, natural air vents.
Chris Barker
24/09/16 – 08:39</EM>< em>
Keith, I wasn’t aware of an ex-Brighton PD3, never having seen it, but I do have a view somewhere in our Editor’s ‘in tray’ of a former BEA Routemaster.
Pete Davies
25/09/16 – 06:17
Unfortunately, due to lack of space following our recent move to a flat, most slides are unavailable at present so I cannot attach an image of the PD3. Likewise the Routemaster which was RMA11.
This subsequently passed to an operator in Leighton Buzzard who used it in full Verwood Transport livery.
After de-regulation, Andy together with Roger Brown [Shaftesbury & District] re-introduced services in the area and I have attached an image of RMA37 in the green livery seen in Christchurch.
Finally is an image of the rebuilt and extended Routemaster RME1 which remained in red and is seen in Salisbury.
Keith Newton
26/09/16 – 10:11
What superb liveries are the blue and green examples shown here. I’m having to pinch myself here to make sure that its not April 1st . Joking apart, I have never heard of the RME extended Routemaster – have you any more details please. Even allowing for the Routemaster’s legendary front and rear modules this must have been quite an engineering feat, requiring longer prop shaft and pipelines of varying sorts.
Chris the last time I saw RME 1 it was on a wedding special in Halifax for a Keighley operator.
Geoff S
27/09/16 – 11:15
Many thanks indeed Roger – I can’t understand how I’d never heard of this ambitious project, and very neatly and professionally executed I must say. I have to be quite honest, when I saw the picture I did think that it was a “spoof”
Chris Youhill
27/09/16 – 16:38
The centre staircase on RME1 is a one-piece grp unit from an Alexander bodied Ailsa.
Stephen Allcroft
28/09/16 – 06:20
I knew of the extended Routemaster Chris (Y), and think it is a fascinating vehicle, but assumed that the conversion would have been carried out by London Transport rather than Shaftesbury & District. It just goes to show that we should never underestimate the ingenuity of the independent operator. Looking at Keith’s photos of the blue and the green Routemasters made me drift off into two of those ‘what might have been’ moments. The blue RMA gives a hint of what Samuel Ledgard’s later purchases may have included, following on from its successful ex-LT RTs and RTLs. The green RMA’s livery is somewhat reminiscent of Leeds City Transport’s (although the upper deck window surrounds and roof would have been in the darker green of course), and could have been one of a batch bought new for use on the Leeds-Bradford 72 joint service with Bradford City Transport. Just idle thoughts I know but…….
Brendan Smith
28/09/16 – 06:21
I notice in the photo at Roger’s second link, dated 2010, that the vehicle has acquired a twin headlamp front.The even window-widths make for a much neater style than the later halfwindow-width extended RM’s.
Chris Hebbron
02/10/16 – 05:37
Just an update for Chris. RME1 was on a two RM wedding special passing through Shipley this afternoon for Red Bus Days of Keighley.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Electric Railway Co 1945 Guy Arab II Northern Counties UH30/26R
I am, basically, a tram and trolleybus enthusiast, and, unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of sampling the delights of the LCBER. By 1955, money was in short supply, and the trams were just about worn away, and the company decided to switch to motorbus operation. I did sample these, in 1956/7, and remember them with great affection. I think that the history of these buses, which succumbed to the mighty Crosville in 1961, has been largely overlooked, perhaps because of the nature of the tram to bus conversion, which was particularly noxious for a hard-core of true bred tramway enthusiasts! There were a dozen or so ex Southdown utility Arab 11s (as shot above), with 3 makes of body, supplemented by 2 later East Kent examples. There was also an ex-East Kent TD5 used only for the initial phase of driver training, and 2 ex Newcastle NCB bodied Daimler COG5s of 1939 vintage. One of the latter was converted to open top in 1956, and there were plans to likewise convert some of the Guys. I can vividly remember riding on the Guys, which reminded me at the time, of Bristol K5Gs, probably because of the crunchy gear change, not always well executed, and the growl of the 5LW. It would be very interesting to hear if other enthusiasts remember this fleet with the same affection as I do, and if there are any other photos out there! I do have an exact fleet list should interest demand it!
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Whitaker
11/05/12 – 08:09
Looks like Mostyn Street, Llandudno. Can anybody with more detailed knowledge of the area confirm or otherwise?
Stephen Ford
11/05/12 – 09:38
This photo has brought very fond memories of by first visit to Llandudno in 1956. Seeing these Guy Arabs operating as an independent Tramway Company gave me a feeling of David and Goliath as Crosville seemed to be the main operator in the area. For once I ignored the Crosville buses and rode on the LCBER buses to their depot at Rhos-on-Sea where a few trams still remained in the yard. I have always found bus companies operating with Tramway names fascinating as they reflect a proud heritage. How many other bus companies were operating with Tramway Company names in the fifties? Sadly LCBER was taken over by Crosville in 1961.
Richard Fieldhouse
11/05/12 – 12:00
One company that springs to mind is the Northern subsidiary Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads. A title they kept until they disappeared into the parent company in the seventies.
Chris Hough
12/05/12 – 07:44
I think Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company Limited was not renamed Bristol Omnibus Company Limited until the 1950s. Now First Somerset & Avon Limited it must surely be one of the oldest legal entities in the public transport field still operating as it was incorporated on October 1st 1887
Nigel Turner
12/05/12 – 07:46
Great posting and wonderful photo John, thanks very much. It just goes to show that many of the most interesting items on OBP are about lesser known operators, and LCBER are an excellent example of that. They were clearly very cost conscious, buying wartime bodied Guy Arabs; many operators had rebodied such vehicles years earlier, and 11/12 year old ones were hardly in the first flush of youth. It’s also interesting that they bought a Leyland TD5 for driver training when they had no Leylands in service, as is the decision to buy the two Daimlers with, presumably, pre-selector gearboxes, amongst the (very) crash gearbox Guys. And how did passengers react to the replacement of smooth and quiet electric traction with trundling 5LW’s? A final question, John – what was LCBER’s livery? It looks smart in your photo, I must say.
Roy Burke
12/05/12 – 07:49
I can remember Bristol, and Bath Tramways in the 1950s when I was stationed at RAF Yatesbury in Wiltshire.
Jim Hepburn
12/05/12 – 07:51
I think this bus’s registration is GUF 153, which was Southdown’s 453, a Guy Arab II, 5LW. (Ch: FD27379), built Feb 1945. Its Northern Counties body (3737) started as H30/26R, was rebuilt to H28/26R and re-engined as a 6LW in Dec 1950, then re-engined to 5LW again prior to withdrawal and sale in July 1956. It was one to escape being converted to an open-topper, like many of its cousins. Whether they realised it or not, they bought wisely with a Guy with Northern Counties bodies, who were given dispensation during the war to build metal-framed bodies, which would have given them far longer lives then their ‘green’-wood, wooden-framed cousins. The windows were rather shallow and out-of-proportion, but they were still rather handsome beasts and looked just as nice beheaded!
Chris Hebbron
12/05/12 – 07:53
Sadly, Chris, the Tyneside and Tramroads name was abandoned in 1965 and thereafter the rather more prosaic Tyneside Omnibus Company had to suffice until it became one of the last Northern subsidiaries (along with Gateshead) to be fully absorbed in, I think, 1976.
Alan Hall
12/05/12 – 08:15
Apologies for the wrong registration GUF 351. Later access to a fleet list, and closer perusal of the photo, has shown this bus to be GUF 159. As Stephen says, it is in Mostyn Street, Llandudno as far as I can tell. This bus was the second No.3, being purchased in 1957, to replace an identical vehicle, original No.3, GUF 128. The Northern Counties bodied examples were metal framed, and this would explain the earlier withdrawal of these buses compared to their Weymann and Park Royal sisters. It would have been much easier for former tramway engineers to maintain a composite body! I understand that a bus fleet list for LCBER will shortly be included in the fleet list section
John Whitaker
12/05/12 – 17:15
Didn’t Bath Electric Tramways and Bath Tramways Motor Co survive until c.1972, when absorbed into BOC?
Philip Rushworth
12/05/12 – 17:26
Just to answer Roy`s question about the LCBER bus livery; this was a deep crimson and cream, being the original tram colours from opening in 1907, until the green livery was adopted in the mid 1920s I presume they did not continue with the green livery after tramway abandonment, in order to differentiate their vehicles from the Tilling green of Crosville. As Richard says, it was also very unusual for me too, to let Bristols go by, but this was a notable and worthy exception!
John Whitaker
19/05/12 – 15:18
Further to my previous comment, I can now confirm the change of names for the following- Gateshead & District Tramways Co.Ltd. became Gateshead & District Omnibus Co. Ltd. on July 12th 1950 Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co Ltd became Bristol Omnibus Co Ltd on May 16th 1957 Tyneside Tramways & Tramroads Co.Ltd. became Tyneside Omnibus Co.Ltd. on March 4th 1965 and surely last of all – Bath Tramways Motor Co. Ltd. became Wessex National Ltd. on August 9th 1974
Nigel Turner
21/05/12 – 17:23
Having asked the question, many thanks Nigel for the details of ex Tramway Companies operating buses in England. Another one that I am aware of is the Rothesay Tramway Company that ceased tramway operations on the Isle of Bute in 1936 but was operating bus services on the Isle with the tramway name to at least to 1951. Scottish postings do seem to be absent at moment so perhaps someone with Rothesay details can assist.
Richard Fieldhouse
23/06/12 – 05:57
I’ve only ever visited Llandudno once, and I must have been 6 or younger, as we went by bus from Bolton – moved from there in 1954, when I was 6 – to Liverpool, then by steamer to Llandudno. It was a day trip, and my parents commented frequently about the fact that it was so foggy on the way, we were in time to disembark and join the queue to return. So, I never saw the trams or their replacement buses!
Pete Davies
23/06/12 – 21:23
When I was about five years old (1958ish) I took a steamer ride out into the Irish Sea from Llandudno aboard a vessel called the St Tudno. A few years later it sank. Moving back to the buses, Pete must have had a very long day to go and see some fog. There were no direct bus routes from Bolton to Liverpool until after deregulation (and even then Merseybus’s 510 service was short-lived), so the trip would have involved changing at Wigan (to the 320) or Atherton (to the 39 from “Manchester” – actually Salford).
Incidentally (here comes a bit of shameless self-promotion!) my new book on “Independent Buses in North Wales” will be out in the next few weeks and it includes the history of the L&CBER along with 29 other indies in the region. Just thought I’d let you know.
Neville Mercer
21/10/12 – 08:02
Lovely photograph of No 3 on Mostyn Street. I was captivated by the trams in 1943 and was heartbroken when they finished in 1956. I was 13 at the time and, like another contributor, only rode on the “Red Buses” when visiting the area. I am currently developing the definitive history of the L&CBER and am constantly looking for personal memories, photographs and memorabilia, particularly geographical tickets and timetables. Good photocopies are all that is required – not original documents, as it is the information only that I require. Should anyone be able to help, it would be very much appreciated and they could contact me through this site.
Geoff Price
06/01/14 – 07:45
I remember these buses when I used to go to stay at my Nains in Penrhynside. They were not liked by myself or the locals who did not want the trams to stop running. Locals referred to them as the “Rock & Roll” buses which summed up the ride they gave.
Trefor Davies
06/01/14 – 09:30
That’s a turnaround, Trefor. My experience and that of many others was that it was the trams which gave you the ‘Rock ‘n Roll’ treatment, especially those with four-wheel trucks. I travelled a lot on trams when a boy (London) and am glad to say that an aunt of mine humoured me by going on them for me instead of the far faster Tube trains, bless her!
Chris Hebbron
06/01/14 – 09:36
In the early 1950s the delightful Hastings trolleybuses – by then operated by Maidstone and District – proudly carried the fleetname “Hastings Tramways Company.” As a young enthusiast I found this delightful – and I also loved the description of the majestic Hastings and St.Leonards Promenade on the destination blinds – “FRONT.”
Chris Youhill
06/01/14 – 14:16
Re Chris Y’s comment on the Hastings destination “Front” if you go to the outer Hebrides you will find buses in Stornoway bearing the destination “Back” – a village around 6 miles out on the road to North Tolsta.
Stephen Ford
06/01/14 – 16:44
“Front” and “Back”! Now that would make quite a route to rival Lands End to John O’Groats, especially if it were undertaken in a 5LW powered utility Guy Arab (max speed 28mph).
Roger Cox
07/01/14 – 06:59
And, of course, on the return journey southward you would be travelling Back to Front!
Stephen Ford
07/01/14 – 08:14
Reminds me of the WWI newspaper headline: Haigh flies back to front.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
03/02/14 – 07:24
I used to catch the bus home from this stop when at Mostyn school its out side a the bakers Dale Jones which we nicknamed stale Jones We would try and catch a “red” bus because we discovered we could open the destination board on the top deck and wind it on, As these still had the previous routes on them it was great fun to watch the waiting customers at the next stops hoping to catch a bus to Rhos on Sea as the Glasgow city centre only pulled up, as they say Happy days
West Riding Automobile 1967 Dennis Lowline III Northern Counties H41/33F
During the mid-1960’s with the recent arrival of Geoffrey Hilditch as General Manager at Halifax Corporation, the Joint Omnibus Committee had begun to develop its tour and private hire operations, acquiring a number of secondhand coaches to that end. A works contract had been obtained requiring a number of coaches to provide transport between the smaller towns within the Wakefield/Barnsley/Doncaster triangle and Meredith & Drew’s biscuit factory at Ovenden in Halifax. Other private hires – such as to away rugby league fixtures – and the popular local afternoon countryside tours often required several coaches or DP’s and it was reckoned that economies could be made if a lesser number of suitably comfortable and speedy low-height double deckers could be provided. At the time the double deck buying policy had switched from Leyland Titan halfcabs to Daimler Fleetlines, but the latter though available in low-height form came with four-speed gearboxes and were only capable of a top speed of around 42 mph. A Dennis Loline III demonstrator had been amongst many other types trialled in 1964, but although it had the preferred semi-automatic gearbox it too had only four speeds, but enquiries were made about the possibility of providing a five-speed version and after further trials of the same demonstrator an order was placed for what would turn out to be the last batch of Lolines to be built. Delivered in February and April 1967 they were numbered 300-304 (FCP 300-304E) and had Gardner 6LX engines, five speed semi-automatic gearboxes and smart Northern Counties H41/33F bodies with all moquette higher-backed seating. They were most impressive vehicles to ride on and could certainly get a move on. They enabled the M&D contract to be worked by fewer vehicles at a more competitive price and were regularly used on tours, private hires and service work alike. Much has already been written elsewhere about the unfortunate unreliability of the complicated and cramped transmission involved, so I won’t go into further details here, but it was a shame as the Loline as such was an otherwise excellently engineered and quality machine. Within four years though the engineers had had enough of their problems. West Riding Automobile was desperately attempting to rid itself of its disastrous Wulfrunians and buying all the Bristol Lodekkas it could lay its hands on. The Loline was essentially based on the Lodekka and so Hilditch spotted an opportunity to be rid of them whilst they could probably still command a decent price and in due course all five became West Riding’s 464-468 (later 549-553), at first painted in their latter Tilling Green and cream livery, but by the time of this photo – taken in Hall Ings, Bradford in 1975 – they had become NBC poppy red. One was withdrawn for spares in 1973, and the others were sold to North’s the dealer in 1977, and scrapped the following year.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
13/07/17 – 08:03
I never rode on these Halifax Lolines, as I (utterly unregretfully) left my job at HPTD Traffic Office towards the end of 1966, but I did spot them about on my occasional visits in the years immediately following. Some other Lolines and a number of FLF Lodekkas also had semi automatic gearboxes which seem to have run satisfactorily in service, though I believe that all these were four speed units. As John says, the Halifax Lolines were SCG five speeders, and the problems seem to have dwelt therein. Given the fact (from GGH himself) that they were capable of ‘well over’ 50mph with the 1700rpm 6LX, it is clear that they were obviously very highly geared indeed in fifth. This would have stressed the transmission components considerably, especially in the challenging Halifax operating environment. Certainly the trouble free Aldershot and District constant mesh five speeders were no sluggards, even with the 6LW engine, though, with a top speed of about 50mph, they were not as highly geared as the Halifax examples. In his book “A Further Look At Buses” Hilditch lists the production of the various Loline models, but mistakenly shows the Reading Mark III machines as having semi auto gearboxes. They were constant mesh, the first batch having four speed Dennis boxes, while the later ones had five speed Bristol units with fifth gear blanked off (a decidedly curious arrangement). Incidentally, the location of John’s photo seems to be that of my last picture in my West Riding Wulfrunian gallery, but I see that the fine Victorian building in the background has been superseded by a ‘modern’ architectural excrescence.
Roger Cox
13/07/17 – 16:21
I believe the Eastern National semi auto FLFs were 6LX/five speed. The Crosville semi autos were also five speed, but had the less powerful 6LW, which would provide less stress for the transmission. I have never heard of either of the above types being particularly troublesome, so the answer may have had something to do with the Halifax Lolines higher (?) gearing.
James Freeman
21/07/17 – 07:03
I remember the Halifax Lolines very well and I remember going on a countryside tour to Delph on one. To me they represented the ultimate half cab D/D development ie Gardner 6LX engine, 30 ft in length, semi automatic gearbox and nice airy interior, a great pity they were flawed.
Andrew Spriggs
22/07/17 – 07:01
What a surprise I got when I read Andrew Spriggs’ comment above, and found mention of my home village of Delph. Not often mentioned in bus circles, but featured in the film ‘Brassed Off’ when the band plays at the Whit Friday Contests. My family ran the village Post Office in Delph for a number of years, and the Halifax buses on the Day/Afternoon Excursions used to stop right outside, so the passengers could stretch their legs and have a wander down by the River Tame, and possibly have a beverage (or two), in one of the 4 pubs. The White Lion being run by Sonny Ramadhin a West Indian cricketer of some renown in the 1950s and 60s. I recall a number of vehicles being used including Lolines, PD3s, and later Fleetlines, along with single deckers if the loadings were not overly generous. Delph, and Saddleworth was of course no stranger to Dennis Lolines, as the local operator, North Western Road Car Company, ran a large fleet of them. Delph was of course the home of one Geoffrey Hilditch for a number of years, and I think the area made a lasting impression on him, as he is buried in the Grave Yard of Denshaw Church, which is the next village up the valley. Anyway enough of my ramblings, and attached is a picture which was sent to me a number of years ago, of 3 Fleetlines in Delph (King Street), on the said Excursions. The Post Office is situated just out of shot to the right, and if shown, would probably show me hanging out of the flat window on the top floor.
Middlesbrough Corporation 1960 Dennis Loline II Northern Counties FH39/31F
The Loline came a bit late really if Dennis had got the licence to build the Lodekka under the name of the Loline sooner I’m sure there would of been a lot more of them than there was. Unfortunately for the Loline in fact for any front engine bus the rear engine buses that soon followed it could have highbridge seating in a lowbridge body due to not having to have drive shafts etc from front to back. If your a fan of rear engine buses I’m afraid I don’t have many all a bit boxy for me. This bus by the way had a sliding door rather than the more usual collapsing type a good picture that shows the other side of this type of bus is here.
There were nine of these Loline mark IIs bought by Middlesbrough Corporation in 1960-1961 following the successful introduction of the solitary mark I JDC 599. The mark II was different in having a front entrance with a chassis modified to accommodate it. On the Northern Counties body, fitted to the Middlesbrough batch, the passenger doors were air operated by a long lever and there are many tales locally of passengers getting shopping bags etc caught by the door. Because the stylish body was specified with a full fronted cab, the engine was enclosed in the cab space with no where for the heat to go except upwards and they gained the nick name of “Sweaty Betties”. In most contemporary photographs they are seen with the screen half window open to aid ventilation The advent of the Daimler Fleetline ensured that no more Lolines were purchased and the low height version of the Fleetline became the standard vehicle from 1962. These were suitable for the low rail bridges of which there were two in Middlesbrough. All buses passing under them had to be less than 13’6″ tall. As a safety measure, buses that complied were fitted with white steering wheels while normal height buses had black.
David Hunter
09/05/21 – 07:11
I remember waiting for the bus in Middlesbrough when I was going home from school and I was positively amazed when one of the 9 Dennis Loline pulled up. To see the electrically operated sliding doors was a wonder. These buses when new in their blue and cream Middlesbrough livery were beautiful.
Barton Transport 1961 Dennis Loline II Northern Counties FL37/31F
861 HAL is the famous ‘limbo dancing’ Dennis Loline II from the Barton fleet. It has an ultra lowbridge Northern Counties FL68F body and we see it at the Netley rally on 13 July 1986. How low can you go? Well, King Alfred’s WCG 104, Tiger Cub, is alongside – compare heights!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
17/11/16 – 07:08
Where does this Loline live now? A long-standing ambition is just to see it: riding on it would be the cherry on top.
Ian Thompson
17/11/16 – 07:09
So much has been written about 861 that I apologise if I’m repeating what’s gone before but for those who may not know, this ultra low Loline was purchased specially by Bartons to pass under an ultra low railway bridge at Sawley Junction station (now renamed Long Eaton) This it did, just, but Bartons proved it could be done. However, the Traffic Commissioners were having none of it and refused to licence the intended route for double deck operation. This left the company with a one-off vehicle with no real purpose but all was not lost for 861 because it became regularly employed on the X42 Nottingham – Derby express service where it put in some astonishing performances, up to 70 mph on the A52 road between the two cities. For most of it’s life it had a Leyland O.600 engine and also a regular driver too, a chap who was always immaculate in Barton’s brown uniform complete with striped shirt and bow tie, I never knew his name but he was known to everyone as ‘Flash Harry’ and a very competent driver he was. The X42 was jointly operated with Trent but those who knew and wanted an exhilarating ride chose Barton!
Chris Barker
17/11/16 – 10:36
Thanks, Chris and Ian. The PSVC listing for 2015 says 861 is part of the Barton collection, but I don’t know the location. A Wiki search gives me all sorts of museums, rare breeds farms and so on, but not what I’m actually seeking!
Pete Davies
17/11/16 – 10:37
This vehicle has become legendary, but I have never actually seen it. I don’t know if those alleged speeds are verifiable – the bus must have been very highly geared to get to 70 mph (I’ve got quite near to that in a 6LXCT powered Olympian). Nevertheless, I can vouch for the supreme stability of the Loline at high speeds, so 861 would have been entirely safe when motoring fast, especially so with such a low built body.
Roger Cox
17/11/16 – 10:56
Ian 861 currently resides in its old depot at Chilwell, along with the other members of the Barton Collection. The premises are usually open to the public during the Heritage Weekend in September each year. Well worth a visit.
Bob Gell
17/11/16 – 12:31
It appeared as part of the Barton display at Showbus this year. I believe the Chilwell site has approval for redevelopment, but don’t know how that will affect the Barton collection.
Ian Comley
17/11/16 – 14:40
As presented in the Barton line-up at Showbus 2016.
Les Dickinson
18/11/16 – 07:12
Given that the Loline was offered with a variety of engines, in this case the Leyland 0.600 being fitted, I’ve often wondered how 861 achieved such a low windscreen line together with what appears to be minimal engine intrusion beside the driver. It would seem to be much lower than, say, a Lowlander bonnet line or any other Lolines for that matter. For the technically minded, would the engine have been modified at all, or perhaps a shallower radiator fitted?
Chris Barker
18/11/16 – 07:17
Here is a link to my Flickr site where I have a set of 20 photos of Barton vehicles at Showbus 2016. Barton at Showbus 2016
Les Dickinson
19/11/16 – 13:38
Thanks for the info, gentlemen. I hadn’t realised that 861 was on the road, so I particularly regret not going to September’s Showbus—especially with all the other fascinating Barton vehicles there. To complement the ingenuity of the mechanical design and seating layout, everything about 861 looks well integrated: the very opposite of the afterthought-plastered-onto-afterthought appearance of some 1960s deckers.
Ian Thompson
20/11/16 – 05:49
Chris, like you, I am convinced that the radiator must have been repositioned or modified to achieve that low windscreen level, and the same is surely true also in respect of the similar bodies on the Barton Regent Vs of the type shown in this link:- www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/
Roger Cox
20/11/16 – 08:20
I take it, Roger, that the Regents weren’t ‘limbo dancers’ in the same was as the Loline – just broadly similar at first glance.
Pete Davies
21/11/16 – 07:50
If you compare the photos of other Loline 2s on this site, you can see that the radiator grille on 861 HAL is much lower, relative to the front wheels, than on other examples of the model.
Nigel Frampton
21/11/16 – 07:51
The clear recognition point between the Loline and the similar-looking Regents is the distance between the top of the wheelarch and the base of the windscreen and side window line. But both are classic versions of a pleasing design that hasn’t been bettered by the more recent use of economical flat glass for windscreens. The wrap-around look gave a real sense of style, in my opinion. And, of course, much better visibility than certain modern buses with heavy non-glazed corner panels.
Peter Murnaghan
21/11/16 – 10:33
When 861 and Regents 850-4 were delivered they were fitted with the Cave Brown Cave heating system, so presumably they didn’t have a radiator in the conventional position. After only a few years, the CBC grilles disappeared, but it begs the question as to where the radiator is now. I remember one journey on 861 on the X42 with a new driver; I think he must have been used to the Regent Vs (four speed gearbox) as he never found fifth gear on the Loline for the whole journey!
Bob Gell
22/11/16 – 12:27
Fifth gear on the Loline I and II was engaged by pushing the stick forward from fourth into neutral, and then over to the right and back again in a ‘U’ movement. If the driver hadn’t been shown, he would probably never have found it. Changing back down from overdrive to fourth needed practice, too, to avoid engaging second gear by mistake. The trick was to move the stick forward into neutral and let it go, so that the detent spring could centre it properly, and then just pull it straight back into fourth.
Roger Cox
22/11/16 – 13:45
The curved front windows look natural on this bus and not out of place as they definitely do on the later Southdown Queen Mary Titans.
David Wragg
22/11/16 – 16:14
This would seem to be the same procedure as I used to observe drivers doing in the Dennis Lances, Roger, if I’m not mistaken, as I travelled from/to Woking Station and St. Peter’s Hospital, Ottershaw.
Chris Hebbron
22/11/16 – 16:15
Roger Thanks for the explanation of finding fifth gear (and getting out of it again!); is this similar to the 5 speed gearbox fitted to Bristol MWs?
Bob Gell
23/11/16 – 07:28
Whilst 850-4 and 861 had Cave-Browne-Cave equipment when new 957-62 did not and the radiators of tin-front buses were generally a lot smaller than the 1940s -style exposed items. I recall that unlike some Northern Counties full front bodies the regents did not use the manufacturer’s bonnet pressings. Perhaps the owner of one of the preserved examples could comment further.
Stephen Allcroft
23/11/16 – 07:29
In answer to Chris H, the Dennis ‘O’ type gearbox fitted to the Lancet, Lance and Lancet UF (though the few LU4 late examples had the Meadows gearbox) worked the ‘wrong way round’ from right to left, and was essentially a four speed sliding mesh (i.e. true ‘crash’) unit with a preselective overdrive on the end of it. To engage fifth the gear stick had to be pushed from the fourth position over to the left and forward. Unlike me, OBP contributor Ian Thompson has driven Dennis machines with this unique box, so he is our ‘in house’ expert here. The Bristol box, Bob, as fitted to the LS and MW, was a synchromesh unit working conventionally upwards from left to right, and I do have experience of it. Fifth gear was engaged from the fourth position by moving it to the right and forward. It was thus impossible to engage/disengage fifth except though fourth, which meant much labouring of the stick to get going again if one was baulked in overdrive. The Lodekka had the same gear positions, but in that case the gearbox was a constant mesh affair, making the extrication process from overdrive rather more difficult. Generally speaking, Lodekka drivers seemed very reluctant to use fifth in service unless a clear stretch of open road beckoned. By contrast, all versions of the Loline (the Loline III had a gear selector layout similar to the Reliance) allowed immediate access to neutral and the other gears from the fifth gear slot, and fifth was treated as the normal top gear. This feature alone meant that the Loline was a more sprightly machine on the road than the Lodekka.
Thx, Roger, for explaining much more about these gearboxes and that the ‘O’ was different from the Loline. You can quite see that drivers put on these vehicles without any advice, would have difficulty finding overdrive, or, if inexperienced, preferred the simplicity of avoiding it!
Chris Hebbron
25/11/16 – 10:37
One endearing thing about Dennis is that they don’t sheepishly follow the crowd. As Roger’s link to Ted Gamblin’s piece makes clear, changing into and out of the Maybach-designed overdrive on the Dennis “O”-type box is simplicity itself, whereas the other gears need rather precise timing. With the strange two-shaft box of the Loline I and II, on the other hand, you can hardly go wrong with any upward or downward changes, EXCEPT for the change down from fifth into fourth, which needs care not only in locating fourth properly in the gate, as Roger points out, but also in engine-speed matching. Having to go through first to engage and disengage reverse can also take you by surprise! I may be over-generalising here, since the only Loline I I’ve ever driven is ex-A&D 357, currently out of action with gearbox problems. It’s interesting that despite (or thanks to?) Dennis’s history of experimental and sometimes eccentric design, and their near-disappearance from the PSV market on several occasions, the company in its present form continues to thrive. Good that they escaped Leyland’s clutches!
Ian Thompson
29/01/17 – 08:43
With BartoN Transport Ltd family and employees we had somewhat different names for the vehicles than what the spotters and enthusiasts call them nowadays. For example the full fronted AEC regents were known as Derby Deckers nothing else, all the ex Londons were London Deckers the 30 foot AEC 470 saloon were known as Reliance (which they were) but the 590s were known as 36 footers. Any thing with a PD1 or PD2 engine was known as just that, we never used Tiger or Titan, or what the chassis originally was. A Vuemaster was that and only that regardless of what it was made from, body names like Vista and Vega were never used. The moggy pickup trucks were vans, the AECs with 3 seats one side and two the other were Jumbos.
Bill Redfern
25/02/17 – 16:30
The driver of 861 on the x42 Derby/Nottm express was Harry Bell or ding dong as we used to call him. His opposite was Ken Gardener also very smart with a dicky bow. I recall this very well as I used to drive 861 on a Saturday which was their day off.
Chris Coleman
05/12/17 – 14:25
I drove 861 the Loline on Saturdays overtime I was out the garage, worked on it a lot and went out to it on breakdowns, not everyone’s cup of tea. On Saturdays Red Michael the Russian conductor would sit at the back looking for police cars and I could do 70mph if not more he managed to get a drink each end Notts and Derby it was on the non stop Derby express, we were never late.
Bill Redfern
06/12/17 – 08:03
If 861 did 70mph then fully laden it must have been very sluggish as the gearing must have been high.
Roger Burdett
06/12/17 – 09:20
Quite so Roger, the engine would be seriously over revving to do 70mph, so if Bill saw this speed on the clock either it was over reading or it was in kilometres per hour (44 mph).
John Wakefield
07/12/17 – 08:48
Why would Dennis calibrate speeds in kph? I think Bill would know his 44’s from his 70’s! Some Barton buses used to make a lovely chuffing noise when “cruising” which I always used to think was their valves happily bouncing?
Joe
26/10/18 – 16:09
Having ridden in 861 during the 90’s. including a London to Brighton trip, out of Chilwell depot. It was a fast motor. The only problem was the steering judder. It meant we had to change drivers ever hour My dad Bill Mann was one of the team that saved it and helped bring it back to life. I think Bill Redfern might have been driving the bull that winched us up the pit at the depot.
Alistair Mann
02/12/20 – 06:37
In the Auto Review book 165 Bus & Coach Album 1 there’s a picture of 861 and it’s definitely 861 with a Regent V grille, not the Loline grille shown on the pictures above. It’s a shot of it in preservation. When was the grille changed and why?
Glenn Jones
03/12/20 – 06:36
Glenn, Bartons had a very competent fibreglass shop in their Chilwell works and they produced fibreglass replicas of the Regent V style grille, these were fitted when the originals had been accident damaged and not only to AECs, at least one of their full front PS1/B rebuilds had a pseudo AEC grille fitted and in the triangle where AEC would have been, they had carefully applied the name LEYLAND across the centre. Such attention to minor details like that were typical and always pleasing to see.
Middlesbrough Corporation 1958 Dennis Loline 1 Northern Counties H36/31RD
Photo taken on a trip to the Transporter bridge which I walked across the top of I presume it is still there or did they really sell it to the Red Indians. This bus is actually a preservation vehicle loads of information here. I seem to remember at the time a rumour that the Loline was actually a Bristol Lodekka built by Dennis not sure how true it was, if any body knows leave a comment.
My Group now own and have preserved this Dennis Loline Mk1. The Loline was in fact a licence built Bristol Lodekka, they of course could only be sold to state owned undertakings and Dennis wanted a bus to rejuvenate their sales in the Municipal market. Northern Counties built a one off body for this bus which was exhibited at Earls Court Commercial Vehicle Show in October 1958 before entering service with Middlesbrough Corporation on 5th November 1958. In the photo above it is seen at Middlesbrough Corporations Parliament Road Depot towards the end of its life, when, because it was a backloader, and all the rest of the fleet were front loaders it only saw light service being used for transporting Councillors from the Councils planning committee on site visits etc. We rebuilt the bus between 1994 and 1998 and took it to Showbus at Duxford for its 40th anniversary where it won the class for “best preserved Dennis”. It is now used extensively for running days and rallies, in fact it has now done over 120 events in the past ten years without any major trouble.
David Hunter
I rode on this magnificent vehicle at a Heart of the Pennines Rally back in the 1990s and was highly impressed by its performance on the hills around Halifax. Only Tony Blackman’s souped-up Regent III did better. Best wishes to those who preserve the Loline. Think you’re not quite right in describing the body as unique, though, Lancashire United had two very similar Loline Is. Sadly neither survived into preservation.
Neville Mercer
23/03/11 – 06:58
Barton’s Dennis Loline 111 861 XAL flt no 861 was the lowest British built decker at only 12’6″ by NCME and was shown at the 1960 Commercial Motor Show.
Roger Broughton
My fault KC
23/03/11 – 18:35
Further to Roger and Nevilles posts There are shots of the Barton Loline and one of the LUT ones on www.sct61.org.uk. Barton vehicle has been in preservation for many years
Chris Hough
06/12/14 – 07:07
You are correct about ‘ Boro buses route numbers being letters. There were exceptions though, services from the Transporter Bridge were M1 & M2 which had same route for much of the way, splitting on Acklam Road although I cant remember the exact destinations, they were not far from the parting of the route. The other exceptions were the two routes,jointly operated by Stokton corp & M’bro corp Stokton used route numbers. To save face the route along Newport Rd was the O/0 the one via Acklam Rd was the 11/II. Hope this may be of of interest to you.
David Onions
06/12/14 – 08:51
I’ve always considered this bus in the “Borough” livery to be one of the most handsome and well proportioned vehicles I’ve had the pleasure to admire in a long long lifetime of enthusiasm.
Chris Youhill
16/04/15 – 06:43
Read somewhere that the Halifax Lolines were uniquely fitted with Leyland 600 engines. The vast majority were LX Gardner, though Oxford specified AV470’s in their Mk II chassis.
Paul Burgess
16/04/15 – 16:01
No, Paul, the Halifax Lolines had Gardner 6LX engines and five speed semi auto gearboxes.
Roger Cox
16/04/15 – 16:02
I can assure you Paul that the Halifax Lolines were fitted with the Gardner 6LX.
John Stringer
17/04/15 – 06:45
North Western took a batch of 15 Loline IIs in 1960, twelve of which had Leyland O.600 engines, the other three had Gardner 6LX.
Ian Wild
17/04/15 – 06:46
North Western had the Leyland O.600 engined Lolines.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/04/15 – 06:47
Do we know how much the Mk II chassis differed from the Mk I?
Chris Hebbron
17/04/15 – 09:28
The Loline Mk I was the original version with a rear entrance and a conventionally sprung rear axle. The Mk II had a forward entrance and air suspension for the rear axle, and it came on the scene in 1958, before the forward entrance versions of the Bristol Lodekka made their appearances.
Roger Cox
19/04/15 – 07:37
Luton also had two Lolines with Leyland O.600 engines. (Information from “British Double Deckers since 1942”, A A Townsin, 1965, four shillings and sixpence and still very useful!).
Peter Williamson
20/04/15 – 07:12
Thx, Roger.
Chris Hebbron
12/12/15 – 07:51
Does anyone have a list of the corporation bus destinations/routes by letter? I used to live in Grove Hill, then Beechwood, so the C , D , Q and R were my routes. I was always fascinated about where all the others went. Especially the S and a very mysterious Belasis!!
Terry Begley
12/12/15 – 13:03
The 500 Group who own/preserve the Middlesbrough Loline will I am sure will be able to help you Terry. Their Facebook group page is here https://m.facebook.com/500group/
Stephen Howarth
02/05/16 – 13:54
I’ve uploaded a ton of reference images I’d taken as part of my uni project to recreate a 3D model of this classic bus to feature in an animation. When working on a 3D animation it is vital to gather as much high quality reference material as possible in order to study the subject. I was lucky enough to arrange a private visit of this bus with David (Group 500) who was kind enough to let me take lots of photos in order to capture as much detail as possible for my research. Please feel free to check out some of these photos in my Flickr album www.flickr.com/gp/johnbriggs
Johnny
23/10/16 – 05:34
The M bus destinations referred to above in Middlesbrough were Lodore Grove and Levick Crescent. These were displayed as Lodore or Levick on the destination blind. The routes diverged on Acklam Road travelling south where it reached the eastern end of Levick Crescent. One version then travelled along the Crescent and terminated at the junction with Mandale Road, the other continued along Acklam Road until it reached Lodore Grove, slightly further south. Both versions were simply M, distinguished by the destination.
John Butler
24/10/16 – 07:15
Interesting photos, Johnny. I was intrigued by the longditudinal rear seats dividing into two sections with different levels, something I’ve never seen before. If you put the animation online, let us know where we can find it, will you?
