My second of three Stratford Blue pictures this one is of 537 EUE, an exposed radiator Leyland Titan PD3/4 of 1963 with a Northern Counties H41/32F body. The fleet list at this site :- www.petergould.co.uk/ gives the fleet number of this bus as No.37, but the picture shows the number 25 clearly displayed. The close up also shows that the vehicle has also suffered some accident inspired remodelling of the offside front wing. This bus was withdrawn in 1971, after a short life with Stratford Blue of only 8 years.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
20/07/12 – 07:43
A smart, (offside mudguard excepted), and purposeful looking vehicle, so much more attractive than it would have been with a tin front. Any idea, Roger, why it was withdrawn at so young an age, and what happened to it thereafter?
Roy Burke
20/07/12 – 07:46
It is also listed as 37 in my BBF 7 Midlands something strange.
Peter
20/07/12 – 09:27
Not quite the pristine condition we’d normally expect of Stratford Blue. I’m guessing that the early withdrawal was either after another (serious) mishap or that its outline didn’t match the criteria of the parent company on take-over. After all, Midland Red are known to have kept very few of the vehicles of acquired fleets – those in the Leicester/Loughborough area being something of an exception – although I have seen views of SB vehicles in red.
Pete Davies
20/07/12 – 09:28
Agree with you, Roy. Amazing how many late (E, F, G registered) PD2s and PD3s were exposed radiator.
David Oldfield
20/07/12 – 09:30
Apparently this Bus is still in existence in Galway in Ireland. Owned by an open top tour operator (Lally’s) under the reg. no ZV 1466. It also spent some time on the Isle of Man.
David
20/07/12 – 12:24
It wasn’t ‘withdrawn’ in 1971 as such- that was the date of Midland Red’s takeover of SB.The PD3s were totally non-standard for BMMO and the whole PD3 fleet was sold to Isle of Man Road Services, the EUE batch changing hands at the start of 1972. IOMRS withdrew it in 1982. The SB renumbering took place in 1969. (Info from R. L. Telfer (2003), Stratford Blue. (Tempus).
Phil Drake
20/07/12 – 12:26
Midland Red sold as number of Stratford Blue buses to Isle of Man Road Services for further service all of which were Titans many with Willowbrook bodywork. Perhaps the most interesting disposal was a trio of Marshall Camair bodied Leyland Panthers that never turned a wheel for either Stratford Blue or Midland Red these ended up in Preston for a full life span.
Chris Hough
20/07/12 – 12:27
Interesting comment about late exposed radiator Leylands. Atkinson trucks also came like that then (any others?): it was a sort of macho quality look and possibly a sign that the fleet was engineer led! That leads in a sort of way to BMMO buses, which seem to go too far the other way: the SOS FEDD recently featured is one of the most hideous buses I’ve ever seen (or not seen) – like an illustration in a children’s book…. to sit the driver on the fuel tank (!) and then have to put in a “peep” window over the filler…. and the proportions… words fail me. It fits with the all-red, easy maintenance but so boring look. This leads in a sort of way to this bus! I’m not sure it is so smart. Why was it sent out without a quick splash of paint to disguise the damage- and is that diesel slop under the filler?… and then the blind doesn’t fit the destination window… What I intended to say was that the numbers on Peter Gould’s list are all over the place (the fleet, not his list) and appear almost random: here they may have thought of a number & then followed the registration instead. Soon after, it seems, they started again. As the bus would say…. Then happy I, that love and am beloved, Where I may not remove nor be removed. Sonnet 25
It is nice to see that this bus has survived, albeit in a “trepanned” state. I cannot understand why the full takeover of Stratford Blue by BMMO should have rendered the Stratford Leyland fleet suddenly “non standard”. BMMO had full management responsibilities for Stratford Blue from 1935, and the fleet content was entirely a BMMO decision. If the Stratford unit could operate efficiently for so long, why should the replacement of blue and white paint by overall red suddenly rewrite the economics. BMMO in house bus manufacture had made decidedly dubious economic sense for some considerable time before the sale of the BET group to NBC in 1968, so the withdrawal of tried and trusted Leyland designs in Stratford in favour of BMMO standard types seems to have arisen from the increasing NBC fascination with the god of “standardisation” (corporate liveries and Leyland Nationals lurking just round the corner) than with operating logic.
Roger Cox
21/07/12 – 12:15
I suppose it was inevitable, if BMMO took over direct management of the concern instead of the arms-length approach, Roger
Chris Hebbron
21/07/12 – 12:16
Standardisation for it’s own sake is not always a good idea, I cant see the point of wholesale changes just for the sake of it, however, in the case of the Routemaster for example, it can work very well, but even they weren’t all bog standard and had several variants. Most Tilling group companies ‘take overs apart’ had standard fleets, where as BET companies managed very well with ‘off the peg’ vehicles, then came the curse of NBC who seemed to go out of their way to prove that Oscar Wilde was right when he said “consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative” end result? the MK1 Leyland National, how can you spend so much time and money on R&D and get it so wrong? I suppose they must have had some good points, but off hand I cant think of any.
Ronnie Hoye
21/07/12 – 17:07
And the Leyland National body had an Italian designer, although we all recall the Mk II Morris Ital had one, too! In Gloucester, they had an all-Bristol fleet, of which the urban services were allocated RELL6L’s. But then Leyland Nationals started to arrive. Never a great Bristol lover, it was nevertheless obvious that the Nationals were inferior and a great disappointment.
Chris Hebbron
21/07/12 – 17:08
I just have to say that I enjoyed driving Leyland Nationals both for Eastern Counties, and East Kent Road Car Co. Admittedly the handling characteristics were very different, and I’ve known one driver getting caught out by forgetting to build up gearbox air pressure in neutral. The bus shot off and embedded itself into the adjacent building in Ashford by a good 6 feet injuring the female driver who was working ‘spare’ moving the buses. My favourites to drive were the Bristol RE’s and RL’s
Norman Long
21/07/12 – 17:08
Strong structure, Ronnie. certainly wasn’t the engine!
David Oldfield
22/07/12 – 08:11
As ever we seem to have strayed from the original subject, nothing new there. The PD3’s the Northern General Group had were different ‘body wise’ to these, but I always loved driving them. Harking back to Leyland Nationals, I’m lead to believe that the MK2 was a far superior beast to the MK1, but never having driven one I cant comment. On Normans point about gearbox pressure, one of Tynemouth’s MK1’s had a similar incident in North Shields, it shot forward demolishing part of a stone boundary wall that surrounds Northumberland Square and ended up in the middle of the flower beds, whereupon it sank up to its axles and had to be lifted out by a crane
Ronnie Hoye
22/07/12 – 09:01
My experience of the Nationals is just the opposite of Ronnie’s – I never drove a Mk 1 but plenty of the Mk 2 variety. As a frequent passenger, and nearby pedestrian, I found the originals to be totally unacceptable – how on Earth they were allowed to make that horrendous screaming row from the large menacingly visible fan I shall never know, and I’m sure that ANY other model, new or ancient, which threw out such enormous amounts of acrid black smoke would have rightly received an immediate prohibition notice. On the other hand, however, I really liked the Mk 2 very much indeed. Weight distribution had been greatly improved, the dreadful 500 series engine banished, and the 600 series and Gardner power units were both powerful and positively “dulcet” in tone. The finest of the 600 type which I drove was one which had been bought from South Wales by West Riding – it was one of four which South Wales had fitted when new with comfortable luxury coach seats in fawn moquette and had an “open” exhaust system. Its power and sporty but pleasant bellowing became legendary in our operating area – its number, for those familiar, was CCY 817V and I wish I could do a few miles in it right now. I apologise for deviating from the Stratford Blue topic but, as we used to say as guilty schoolboys, “It weren’t me what started it Sir.”
Chris Youhill
23/07/12 – 08:05
You’ve described, Chris Y, to a ‘T’, my memories of the early Nationals. And the vehicles were so angular inside, especially the part above the top of the windows. The inside roofs soon became dirty, too, as if they were single-skinned. I think I preferred austerity bodies, on reflection! An altogether unpleasant vehicle that should never, in ‘Mk I’ form, have been put on the road.
Here’s a clip of some LN Mk I’s being cold-started – I think they might be South Riding’s vehicles. SEE: www.youtube.com/
Chris Hebbron
23/07/12 – 08:08
As ever, I’m in full accord with Chris Y.
David Oldfield
23/07/12 – 08:09
BMMO did seem to have a strange attitude towards Stratford Blue: although Stratford Blue vehicles worked on X50 (Birmingham-Stratford) for many, many years the service was never jointly licenced and Stratford Blue always worked on-hire to BMMO; and, so I’ve read, Stratford Blue vehicles were never welcome at Carlyle works. Somewhat “distant” relationships between parent companies and subsidiaries don’t seem all that uncommon: Frank Briggs managed to maintain a degree of autonomy for Standerwick from Ribble; and until the GM of Northern assumed management responsibility for Sunderland District and Gateshead the managers of the smaller companies ordered their own vehicles etc . . . but the relationship between BMMO and Stratford Blue seems particularly strange. Did it perhaps date back to the Power/Shire era? Power was reported as having looked at Stratford Blue with “admiring eyes” – did Power keep Stratford Blue separate/”independent” and so out of Shire’s engineering remit? (the two are known not to have got on), and did that translate into the appointment of a Traffic Department oriented board of Directors which persisted through the company’s subsequent history? Stratford Blue itself had a strange approach to route numbering – when route numbers were introduced they weren’t applied to all services, and they were applied in leaps-and-bounds where they were. I’ve got a handful of Stratford Blue Setright tickets in my collection: some on pink paper, some on white – its my understanding that Stratford-upon-Avon depot used white ticket rolls and Kineton depot used pink rolls. And those Leyland Panthers that never turned a wheel . . . were they really a sound choice for a such a small company? – I can’t see that the traffic on Stratford-upon-Avon local services really justified dual-door buses. And weren’t those centre doors the cause of their “delayed” entry into service? I think that they had outwardly-sliding centre doors (now common, but then rare [Ribble specified them on some of its RELLs . . . anybody know of any others?]), and it was problems with these that caused the Deputy Manager to reject delivery from Marshalls as he didn’t feel able to accept delivery in the absence of the Manager (who was absent on leave) – and then the company was wrapped-up before they could enter service. They were subsequently painted into “Midland Red” livery but were “blacked” by BMMO staff (and then spent the rest of their time with BMMO parked out-of-use at Digbeth Depot’s Adderley Street over-spill parking area): which raises two questions – why did BMMO apparently intend on keeping these non-standard vehicles when the rest of the Stratford Blue fleet (including some quite new Atlanteans) was disposed of PDQ (although, given, they did repaint some Titans that didn’t stay long)? and why did BMMO crews refuse to work with the Panthers? (was it because they were dual door? – but then BMMO had its own dual-door DD11/12 Fleetlines).
Philip Rushworth
08/05/13 – 08:32
It was nothing to do with being ‘blacked’ by Midland Red drivers. The Panthers were parked up at Adderley Street in Birmingham to await disposal after the West Midlands Traffic Commissioners refused approval of the plug in doors on safety grounds. Other area commissioners did not have a problem with them. As a matter of interest the dual door Fleetlines were soon operated as single door buses with the centre doors fixed shut. This was due to even moderate nearside crosswinds opening the centre doors and disengaging the gearbox whilst bus was in in motion. The doors were controlled through the semi automatic gear stick and set up so that the bus could not be driven with the centre doors open.
Mike Holloway
09/05/13 – 07:41
If anyone misses the noise from Mk1 Nationals come to Leeds and follow one of the ftrs they are noisy!
Chris Hough
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
18/05/17 – 14:53
Sister bus 539 EUE seen at the Red Lion bus station, Stratford. The young gentleman seems to have his attention elsewhere!
The posting a little while ago of the Bradford Daimler CVG6 was a reminder that although both they and Leyland were then manufacturing rear-engined double decker chassis in large numbers, not all operators were yet willing to make the change to them. Southdown’s later Queen Marys are examples of some of Leyland’s last traditional front-engined vehicles. Judging by the number of them that have been preserved, (many of them went on to have second lives with independents, of course), and by comments I’ve read, Queen Marys have a great number of fans. Not everyone liked them, however, and I’ve also heard some unflattering remarks about their appearance. Prior experience makes me reluctant to express my own views just yet! Queen Marys, which Southdown bought in very large numbers, were pretty well standard fare when I joined as Traffic Superintendent, Brighton, but I never really got to drive them. A Maidstone & District District Superintendent who I respected and admired made a point of becoming familiar with all vehicles allocated to him, which struck me as an eminently sensible idea. It was quickly made clear to me, however, that at Southdown such a practice was regarded as ‘inappropriate’, so a trip to Devil’s Dyke and back was all I ever managed at the wheel. The photo is of the final ‘Panoramic’ version of the Northern Counties bodywork, in which the cream paint is taken straight across the front rather than curving round the windscreen as it did in the more numerous earlier Queen Marys. Three years later, Southdown followed their eastern neighbour by changing to Fleetlines.
Photograph by Diesel Dave Copy contributed by Roy Burke
I have never understood the Queen Mary name for these. Only Southdown versions seem to have been given this name, while the PD3/MCW combination with Ribble was given the name Tank. Even ex-Southdown drivers of my acquaintance don’t seem to know the reasoning. Is it just an enthusiast nickname, like certain railway locomotives have unofficial names (Class 40 Whistler, Class 50 Hoover, etc)? Of the bodies, I liked the “Panoramic” style the least, whether it was the Northern Counties on a PD3 or an Alexander on an Atlantean. Some Ribble Atlanteans, of similar vintage to this, had Northern Counties bodies with the same front dome. To me, it just doesn’t look right. Put “Panoramic” windows on a coach, however, and it’s a different story!
Pete Davies
12/10/12 – 15:32
I tend to agree with you on that point, Pete, I like the original version of these, and whilst I would say that the Alexander ‘Y’s look far better as a Panoramic, the double decker’s with the same front as the MCW clone just looked wrong, however, I quite liked the later Alexander D/D’s with the larger windows.
Ronnie Hoye
12/10/12 – 18:06
At the risk of making myself unpopular with all of this website’s southern readers, I never understood the popularity of this design – or for that matter the popularity of Southdown’s (to me rather “yucky”) livery. Ribble’s PD3/MCCW FH72Fs were clearly better looking and the colour scheme suited them down to the ground. And this comes from a man who can barely look at a standard MCW Orion body without shaking his head. I never felt a similar affection for the PD3/Burlingham variant with the full-front, much preferring the Burlingham design as a half cab with the BMMO front as supplied to Scout. As for the later “panoramic” version of the Southdown PD3/NCME (as shown above), perhaps it should be transferred to the Ugly Bus page before it gives us all nightmares. Some very unfortunate designs came out of Northern Counties in the latter half of the 1960s, making one wonder if personnel from Massey Bros had taken over the design team after the take-over of that company by NCME. Massey were renowned for their aesthetically challenged body styling – their lowbridge vehicles had a (thankfully) unique “stepped on by a giant” look while their single-deckers were hideous without fail. I look forward to opposing viewpoints!
Neville Mercer
12/10/12 – 18:14
I much preferred the earlier versions with single headlamps and the ‘conventional’ upper deck front dome. I thought the opening vent in the nearside front windscreen spoiled the design which was otherwise very well balanced. And of course the livery helped. Simple but very classy and also timeless. It would still look good on many of today’s modern buses.
Philip Halstead
13/10/12 – 07:00
Neville, you’re not upsetting me! My ancestry is Lancastrian, and my schooldays were spent in Lancaster itself and British West Bradford, though I was born in London. I’ve lived in and around Southampton for over 40 years now, and many of the contributions I’m planning reflect this. So far as the livery is concerned, I have encountered a number of operators with what might best be described as pseudo-Southdown arrangements, Southern National before they succumbed to the “Barbie Doll” being the biggest example. Perhaps a darker green might have helped (but not NBC “LEAF”!)
Pete Davies
13/10/12 – 07:01
Calm down, calm down, Neville, it’s only a bus! To condemn the above bus to the Ugly Bus page, is extreme. And I feel that ones taste in buses, like anything else is hardly a North-South Divide’ thing. I’ll stand with Philip on my view on this vehicle. I certainly don’t feel that the Ribble version looked better, the Orion body was, as many Orion bodies were; less attractive and the livery blander, but not deserving of being condemned to the Ugly Bus page! (Of course, am I toning my real thoughts down, in the interest of your blood pressure!). We do agree about Massey bodywork, however, especially those with outrageously curved upper deck fronts.
Chris Hebbron
13/10/12 – 07:01
A piece of local folklore? The Southdown terminus in Southsea was at South Parade Pier. Drivers and conductors would gather to chat and smoke prior to their next departure on the promenade. Looking out to sea, one observed the Queen Mary (the liner!) passing through the Solent one day. ‘My that’s a big ship – big just like our new buses – they must be the “Queen Mary”s of the bus world,’ – or something like that. PS: I don’t believe a word of it!! However, opinion amongst ex-staff here in Portsmouth as to whether or not the term originated with employees, or is pure enthusiast is divided – so take your pick!
Philip Lamb
13/10/12 – 07:02
I feel that I must take issue with some of your contributors. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but, to me, this is a pleasing design with a timeless, attractive livery. I don’t think that the Queen Marys were universally popular with the staff. The drivers had a hot and noisy engine in the cab with them. The conductors had nowhere to stand, when passengers were boarding and alighting, as they funnelled past him (or her). Without a recess, he was simply ‘in their way’. And, I would have thought that the fitters would probably have preferred the easier access offered by an opening bonnet. But for the passenger – heaven! Over the downs to Newhaven, Seaford, Beachy Head and Eastbourne. Those lovely big windows and sunny aspect through the Perspex roof panels. Along the coast road to Worthing, Chichester and beyond. Looking out to sea from their own personal observatory. Or up through the Wealden countryside, over Crowborough Beacon to Royal Tunbridge Wells. Bus travel at its best. Things were going to go downhill after this. Single deckers, then Leyland Nationals, harsh Bristol VRs with a thin skin and small windows. No thanks, a panoramic Queen Mary for me any day, thanks !
Peter Murnaghan
13/10/12 – 07:03
The problem with this design in my view (and I suspect in Southdown’s view at the time) is that it is a hybrid of two aesthetics. What they really wanted to do was to put a BET windscreen on it. They tried a couple of times, but it meant moving the radiator and that didn’t work too well. As long as the rad filler was in that position they had to use the throwback windscreens, which looked silly beneath the modern upper deck window. No doubt the change of livery was a failed attempt to disguise the fact. As for Northern Counties post-Massey, there was definitely some Massey influence (and almost certainly some Massey parts) in certain designs, but not this one. Northern Counties’ idea of using the rear window of a BET single decker at the front of the upper deck was a straight copy of what Alexander had done using the Y type rear window. Unfortunately it didn’t fit so well, although it seemed to fit better on Southdown vehicles than anyone else’s – possibly because of deeper side windows.
Peter Williamson
13/10/12 – 10:38
OK. Gloves off. As Neville’s biggest fan: Don’t agree about Southdown livery but agree about Tanks. As a Roe man, I still think an Orion can look good in the appropriate livery, though. Suppose I do agree, as a Burlingham man, with the comments on full-frontal Ribbles. Have to defend Neville on the ugliness of Panoramic QMs – back to balance of design or lack of it – and certainly of Masseys. [See also Peter W’s comments.] …..but Peter M, you don’t need to take issue. As you say, beauty in the eye of the beholder. Friendly banter and tongue in cheek digs help liven us up here on OBP. Sometimes a knee jerk reaction needs further contemplation – even in a forum like this. So often we challenge comments and then on reflection see how true they are and that we probably actually agree with them.
David Oldfield
14/10/12 – 07:22
Ugliness is in the eye of the beholder. I never liked the Queen Marys or the Ribble equivalents. Disguising what was a chassis designed for half cabs was never a good idea and the blame goes back pre WW2 to Blackpool and others. Even some of the full front front engined singles looked poor. An honest half cab can’t be beaten. But what do I know – I liked the Park Royal Renown. Big, brutish without the vices of the Park Royal Bridgemaster it plainly stated I’m a BUS. It looked good in North Western and King Alfred colours and when Crosville inherited theirs, the large amounts of solid green set off with black wheels looked very smart – possibly the best scheme ever applied until some idiot applied NBC logos and horrible grey wheels. See www.sct61.org.uk/nw964
Phil Blinkhorn
14/10/12 – 08:02
Phil, I’m with you all the way – especially re Renown.
David Oldfield
14/10/12 – 08:03
I, too, found the appearance of the “panoramic” version of the Southdown Queen Mary PD3/4s to be a curious hotchpotch of clashing features. The earlier style of Northern Counties FH39/30F bodies on these buses possessed classic lines, which, in my view anyway, were more aesthetically appealing than their Ribble MCW equivalents, but then I have never been a fan of the Orion body and its derivatives. To me, the Burlingham bodied version of the Ribble PD3 was much superior in appearance. London Country obtained examples of both the Southdown and Ribble PD3/Burlingham for training purposes, but the Southdown Queen Marys were subsequently used in service from Godstone garage on the long 409 route between Croydon and Forest Row, and on the interworked 411 between Croydon and Reigate. These ex Southdown machines were of the semi automatic PD3/5 type, of which Southdown bought a batch of 40 in 1961/62. They were not very successful, having particularly poor hill climbing ability, and they were soon relegated to the flatter services. Unfortunately, though I rode very often as a passenger on the Southdown Queen Marys, I never got to sample the performance of the three LCBS examples. Though they must have struggled on the stiff gradients around the Caterham Valley, and Redstone Hill, Redhill, they gave a year of faithful service on those routes. After the unsuccessful flirtation with the semi automatic PD3, Southdown reverted to the PD3/4 with clutch and synchromesh gearbox, but the Northern Counties bodies took different forms. In addition to the initial classic style, some were built with convertible open tops, and then came the somewhat odd “panoramic” version. The variations did not end there, because one of the earlier examples was rebuilt with a repositioned radiator as part of a prototype saloon heating system. The absence of a front mounted radiator allowed the fitment of a panoramic style windscreen, which looked decidedly incongruous on the otherwise standard body. This bus, No. 257, can be seen here:- www.sct61.org.uk
Here are some more pictures of Queen Marys.
BUF 428C of 1965 is an example of the convertible open topper, distinguished by the slightly greater depth of panelling between decks – unlike its permanently roofed fellows, the front route number box is not located directly under the base of the windows. It is seen at Old Steine, Brighton, in winter garb, and again at Beachy Head in its summer form.
FCD 296D is a 1966 bus, and is seen in Haywards Heath.
HCD 362E, also at Old Steine, is one of the panoramic buses delivered in 1967.
Roger Cox
14/10/12 – 10:33
The panoramic windowed body on these Titans was in many ways a front engined version of the panoramic bodywork supplied on rear engined chassis to Yorkshire Traction among others an example of which appears in the YTC section on this web site The bus with the curved windscreen looks to me for all the world like a Southdown NCME Leopard with an upper deck dumped on top! When one of the Southdowns appeared at the 1966 Earls Court show the only other front engined bus was an AEC Regent V for South Wales with a very traditional Willowbrook body A design that to my mind that has not dated as much as the Southdown one However as a totally biased member of the Roe fan club to me the acme of traditional bus design was the 30 foot AEC Regent Vs bought by my beloved Leeds City Transport from 1962 to 1966!
Chris Hough
14/10/12 – 10:34
Thank you, gentlemen, for your comments, which I’ve read with much pleasure. When I joined Southdown, which I did with immense enthusiasm, I was very keen to compare their modern ‘traditional’ Leyland fleet with M&D, whose PD2s were all at least 14 years old, and whose Atlanteans were very expensive to buy, run and maintain. I was also interested to see what improvements Leyland had made to their front-engined chassis. However, since Southdown didn’t think it necessary to give the likes of me access to management accounts, (or to any management or operational information for that matter), I was never able to make an operational evaluation. My very short driving experience was rather disappointing. As Peter M points out, these PD3s were pretty noisy in the cab, the full front reduced nearside visibility slightly, and they were not noticeably improved from the PD2s I already knew. With your eyes closed, travelling in a Queen Mary was no different either, except that occasionally they could give out a kind of rattle or clatter inside at certain low engine speeds. Moreover, the Engineering Department’s control was such that the Traffic Department’s involvement with the fleet consisted solely of providing crews – full stop. Eventually, I simply lost interest in any of the fleet; at Southdown, unlike either M&D or West Yorkshire, people just did their own thing in isolation. Pete D has reminded me that I never heard the term ‘Queen Mary’ while I was at Southdown, but I can see how their appearance could have been likened to an old ocean liner, as Philip L suggests. Livery is a very personal thing; for me, Southdown’s was O.K. although the capital letter version of the name was undeniably old-fashioned, which didn’t project a progressive image, and it made replacing damaged panels more expensive than it need have been. (None of my business!). I’m afraid I can’t agree with Neville, however, about Ribble’s full-fronted vehicles, which always seemed to me to look at best severe, and even drab when the paintwork aged. As several correspondents have pointed out, the original full-fronted design hardly lent itself to attempts at modernisation, which left the ‘Panoramic’ looking awkward and ungainly. At that time, there was a fashion amongst some motor manufacturers to make alterations to their older models by adding an extra chrome strip here and there, or to enlarge the rear window – Rover’s P4s got that treatment – and the Panoramic seemed like the bus equivalent of the fashion. One small thing about the full front that always irritated me slightly was that the nearside interior of the cab, which intending passengers could clearly see, often became dirty or stained, and sometimes littered with drivers’ detritus such as chocolate or crisp wrappers, and even, once, an empty cigarette packet. That, of course, was an Engineering Department responsibility: Traffic keep out of things that aren’t your concern!
Roy Burke
14/10/12 – 11:27
Lest anybody should think that I am prejudiced against Southdown in general, let me put the record straight. My comments on “yucky” livery didn’t apply to the coach version with two-tone green AND cream which I always thought was one of the more attractive liveries – particularly on the Weymann Fanfare and Harrington Cavalier designs. Once the cream was dropped they became rather drab and unimaginative – they might have benefited from a larger area of the darker green to counter-balance the relentless apple. As regards SMS double-deckers I never had any problems with the livery on Arabs and PD2s, but somehow on the PD3s it became a different livery altogether. Perhaps those ridiculous “D-shaped” windows on the lower decks tipped the scales from my viewpoint. And again (personal opinion!) I thought that all panoramic windowed deckers were ugly, including rear engined examples. The feature gave them all something of a mutton dressed as lamb pretentiousness. On the positive side I always found Southdown to be a well-run company and its route network was excellent – far better than that of my own beloved North Western which was painfully thin in rural areas (while resolutely blocking new entrants who could have improved things) and must have forced many rural commuters into car ownership as the only alternative. If you doubt my assertion of how pitiful NWRCC’s country network was I advise you to consult a timetable (say from the mid-60s), compare the population of the villages to the services on offer, and then conduct the same exercise with Southdown or another more imaginative operator. Not impressed with their livery (or their PD3s as icons) but very impressed with their levels of service! One final point. My memory might be failing me but it seems to me that the cream (or buttermilk or whatever you want to call it) was several shades lighter than the colour used on OOC PD3 models. At least one of the preserved examples (based in West Yorkshire) seems to use the OOC shade rather than the one I remember. Photographs vary according to the lighting or the type of film used but most seem to agree with my memory rather than the OOC variant. Has anybody else noticed this discrepancy and which shade is correct?
Neville Mercer
14/10/12 – 14:29
Neville the D shaped rear lower deck window was not confined to Southdown, Wigan Corporation PD3s from the same company also had the feature while similar bodied PD3s with Yorkshire Traction did not. So who specified it is difficult to say however the Wigan PD3s given a reasonable impression of what a half cab Southdown may have looked like shots of them are on www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
14/10/12 – 14:31
Sorry to disagree with you again, Neville. I know nothing about North Western Road Car’s operations, although I met the General Manager, (Mr W. Leese, I think), once or twice, and so can’t comment on them. However, in my view Southdown was inefficient in a number of respects compared with the two other companies I knew reasonably well. Just two examples: as someone else has remarked elsewhere in these pages, the dominance of the Engineering Department could result in unnecessary delays in replacing vehicle failures; secondly, their staff rotas, (well, certainly those in Brighton in my time), were sloppy and, frankly, unprofessional – they’d never have been approved in Harrogate. There were quite a few aspects of Southdown, in fact, that would make me disagree with the idea of describing them as ‘a well-run company’.
Roy Burke
14/10/12 – 16:14
I have to point out that car No 257 mentioned by Roger Cox was most definitely not converted in any way but was built from new with the BET screen and the radiator under the stairs as part of what I think was a Clayton Dewandre “Compass” heating system, It spent most if not all of it’s life at Worthing depot on mainly flat terrain where it was still prone to overheating. A second similar system appeared on car No 315 at the 1966 Earls Court show but this one had a Panoramic style body with BET screens on both decks that is rear screen on the top deck and front on the lower. This spent some time at Brighton depot and made occasional journeys on the 12 route to Eastbourne where I drove it on one occasion on an early morning duty in late 1969, I found the visibility from the cab was much better than the standard version which had some very awkward blind spots to anyone above average height, the high noise level was I remember much the same. It would appear that this bus was not so prone to overheating as 257 judging from it’s appearances on the very hilly 12 road. Remarks about the Queen Marys not being universally popular among drivers due to high noise levels and the aforementioned blind spots are quite correct, thier propensity to brake fade in hot and hilly conditions when well loaded didn’t win them any friends either dropping down the hill into Eastbourne in the summer with a load on was a nervous expierience even in low gear you always hoped traffic lights would be green. To my prejudiced eye the livery looked good on just about any body style but I have to agree it did look uncomfortable on the Panoramics, regarding those D shaped windows at the rear on some models they were fitted with a hinged fan light as seen on cars of around that time, you know the ones car drivers flicked their fag ash out of.
Diesel Dave
15/10/12 – 07:30
Am I allowed to say I like the appearance of the Queen Mary’s?
Ken Jones
15/10/12 – 09:48
Ken…I’ll be brave and agree. Maybe we are not experts! Based purely upon looking at them as a design, I think the large panoramic windows upstairs are an inspired idea and reflect a time when people were trying to make things “futuristic” in appearance. It must have given a wonderful view when on the sea front etc. I doubt it was a very practical design though and fitters probably hated lugging such large glass panes into place. For me the worst bit is the front with that far too steeply dropped windscreen, those unmatched windows, the awkward beading and that it looks “wrong” however you paint the bands…straight across looks strange and following the curve makes it look miserable. However…think back to the day they were new and imagine being that young bus spotter on the pavement and I think they would have been thought wonderful! That glass, the full front, the colours and I know I and my old friend Clive would have loved them at the time.
Richard Leaman
15/10/12 – 17:00
Dave, thanks for that information about the panoramic windscreen versions of the Queen Marys. I always thought that they were operator modifications. Yet again the comments on this site expand our knowledge considerably. The PD3 would never have won any prizes in the brakes department, irrespective of the body fitted. In Halifax it was mandatory (i.e. a disciplinary matter if caught out) to descend hills in the same gear required to go up, and nobody in his/her right mind would have disregarded this rule in a PD3. Even then it paid to keep a prayer mat handy. I always liked the Southdown livery, which, until the advent of NBC, seemed to be quite well maintained. Traditionally in the bus industry, there was always mutual suspicion between Traffic and Engineering. The curious arrangement in some BET companies (Aldershot and District was another) under which conductors reported to the Traffic Manager, but drivers came under the Chief Engineer, seemed to be based upon the view that drivers were machine operatives, whereas conductors were revenue collection personnel. Did any BTC companies follow this pattern? This simplistic attitude evaporated with the extension and ultimate complete adoption of one person operation. All my Southdown experiences were gained as a frequent passenger, but it did appear that the company’s engineering department had some curious ideas. On a several occasions it was apparent that the engine fuel pumps had been “recalibrated” to improve economy. This was painfully evident enough on Leylands, but the effect upon the Gardner 6LWs in the Arab IVs was extreme. I recall a trip on one of these very fine buses on the 23 route from Crawley to Brighton, where the engine governor had been reset to cut out at around 1500 rpm. The bus wouldn’t exceed a level road speed of about 25 mph. making the steep ascents en route exceedingly slow, and the entire journey absurdly protracted.
Roger Cox
17/10/12 – 08:25
Interesting comment from Roger about which gear should be used on hills! When I was first learning to drive, my instructor gave me the same advice: “You’ll fail your test if you don’t, lad!”
Pete Davies
17/10/12 – 17:50
Like Pete, I thought that every vehicle has three types of brake, hand brake, foot brake and the gearbox. When I did my HGV instructors course, I was told to instruct pupils to engage the correct gear for leaving a roundabout etc, but not to use the gearbox as a brake. Obviously whoever thought up that pearl of wisdom had never driven a PD3 or a vehicle with an air over hydraulic system.
Ronnie Hoye
17/10/12 – 17:51
Having read Roy Burke’s comments on the demarcation that existed between the traffic and engineering departments which was not always obvious to the road staff. Clearly he had to deal with on a daily basis, no doubt frustrating at times, maybe his way would have had benefits all round but we’ll never know. I wonder if maybe the engineering side felt that they dealt with the real world on the ground and traffic dealt in paper and figures, just a thought. If however his office was in Southdown House he no doubt would have used the subsidised canteen there which he may or may not have been aware was barred to all road staff with very few exceptions even when they had reason to be in the Freshfield Road garage in the basement, another form of demarcation, then again Portslade Works was not much better but we were tolerated although looked upon with suspicion as someone who was likely to ruin their good work but despite all my moans I am still proud to say I worked for Southdown and enjoyed it especially before NBC exerted it’s stranglehold.
Diesel Dave
18/10/12 – 07:42
Yes, Ronnie. Both when I took my Advanced Test (IAM) and my PSV, I was told brakes to stop and gears to go.
David Oldfield
19/10/12 – 06:27
Except, of course, that every time you remove your foot from the accelerator pedal, the engine is acting as a brake, unless you knock the transmission into neutral.
Roger Cox
21/10/12 – 11:30
Thank you, Dave for your response, (as well as for providing the photo for the posting) – after all, you have far more experience of these vehicles than any of us. My office was in Steine Street. After induction, I never once went to Freshfield House and so didn’t use the canteen there. That its use was arbitrarily restricted, however, doesn’t surprise me at all. You’re absolutely entitled, Dave, to feel proud to have worked for Southdown; my grumbles don’t extend to the platform staff in any way, and I was lucky, (and grateful), enough to have the support of a really good Chief Inspector who helped me in many ways. I felt sympathy for him having traffic problems that wouldn’t have existed in the other operators I’d known, and for which now and again I had to write apology letters to passengers.
Roy Burke
30/10/2012 15:15:10
In my childhood I was a latch key kid but had the privilege of being brought up by Bob Mustchin who was the foreman at Bognor Garage in the late 50’s/60’s. I would hang around the bus station and curiosity got the better of me venturing into the garage which had recently been swopped with Hall & Co who preferred Southdowns original garage opposite the Goods Yard for oblivious reasons as there base was there. Bob finally succumbed to my intrusion into his work place and strictly told me not to stray from his side which opened up an exciting world of bus engineering and operation. In later years this relationship proved invaluable when I approached him as District Engineer to buy one of the post war PS1’s which had found a new lease of life at Bognor as a left luggage facility. In early years both vehicles would be utilised to go to the store at the old garage at Eastergate but they finally became static moving only at the beginning and end of the summer season. When the purchase had been completed Bob arranged for the AEC Matador based then at Chichester to tow HCD 449 (1249) latterly 689 to Dorking where I stored it at my work place at the back of Dorking Town Station. This started a career in bus preservation focusing on ex Southdown vehicles and adventures more apt in a book than on this comment. A later acquisition brought an ex Southdown breakdown tender 0181 (ex EUF 181) originally a TD1 Double Decker that later was rebuilt onto 181’s chassis and based at Edward Street garage in Brighton. My first tow was an ex Blackpool TS7 coach converted to a de-icing vehicle, accompanied by the famous DUF 179 (1179) an iconic example of Harrington/Leyland TS7 coach. It was Blackpool to storage in Kent an epic journey at 28 mph!! Later tows included recovering 0182 (ex EUF 182 from Brighton seafront after cylinder failure on the HCVS London to Brighton run. A range of ex Southdown vehicles passed through my hands to name a few Fleet Nos 649, 196 and a PD12 from a Shoreham Company which retired from staff transport. A working relationship grew with Tony Hepworth the manager of Portslade works who would go to great lengths to help restore an ex Southdown vehicle known to me. The highlight was a phone call I received one day during a meeting at work saying the last roll of Holdsworth moquette had been laid in the canteen as carpet!! I went immediately down to Portslade and struck a deal with Tony to take up the valuable material and replace it with commercial carpet which I paid for. This concludes an interaction with a company that I had grown to admire and was aware of their quality and service to the public. My story finally ends with a PD3 (Queen Mary) 422 on a reg AOR 137B) that was the beginning of my own bus company Leisurelink which is the subject of another story. This was the result of extensive cooperation with Richard Alexander, Chief Engineer at the Southdown management buyout days and survived into the Stagecoach era with basing the Leisurelink open toppers at Worthing depot. My happiest memories are of getting out of the office in Newhaven and driving 422 on a shift beginning with a run into Brighton on the 12 route with a standing load created as a school contract to run in service especially at the right turn at the Clock Tower traffic lights when any oncoming buses gave way to an old lady who was about to succumb to another snatch change from the standing position!! The nickname comes from the first PD3’s of the Queen Mary type were allocated to Hilsea depot who thought they were bigger than anything at the time. It was thought they were akin to a ship and of course HMS Queen Mary was at Southampton hence the nickname as a reflection of their size.
Clifford Jones
26/01/13 – 16:58
I’m a former Hilsea driver who cut his teeth driving PD3s and I can categorically state that they were NEVER referred to by Hilsea staff as ‘Queen Marys’. I honestly believe this was an anorak invention much towards the end of their lives. Julian Osbourne insists they had always been known thus. Rubbish!
Mark Southgate
18/04/13 – 07:20
Arriving at Conway Street Garage, Hove, in 1976 as an escapee from Southern Vectis my first encounter of the Queen Marys was with training bus 2880 CD and Inspector Les Dawson, who required me to parallel park the thing between two cars. Having been used to the Isle of Wight’s Bristol Lodekkas with loads of Gardner torque, I was a bit disappointed to find that I had to start in first gear even on the level with those Leylands – on the Lodekkas it was very rare indeed to have to use first to pull away even on hills. Inspector Dawson had to demonstrate to me how to do a snatch change on a hill! But during the time I was at Conway Street I grew to love those Marys and often wish I could have another go!
Patrick Hall
18/04/13 – 16:35
Hi, they have Queen Marys at the Goodwood Revival in September. They also have 4 coaches to take the Marshalls onto the track then pick them up after. I will take pictures of these this year.
Andy Fisher
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/09/18 – 06:38
I remember the first time l saw one of the new Queen Marys at the Old Steine in the early 60s. They had only just come into service, it was a number 12 and it was the bus l was getting on. I always thought as a passenger that they were great. The last time l saw one was when l was in the U K on holiday in about 2008. My father had been a driver for Brighton Corp. on the old trolley busses, we had picked him up from London and were going towards Shoreham when he told us to turn right opposite the old cement works at Beeding. It took us to an old bus Mecca. He was delighted to catch up all the old buses he remembered.
This Titan PD3/4 in the Southdown fleet is seen in somewhat strange surroundings. She is adjacent to a public park outside Dock Gate 4 in Southampton on 23 August 1982 while on hire to Southampton City Transport on park and ride duty in connection with the Tall Ships Races. Portsmouth and Thamesdown loaned buses for the event – I saw some of the Portsmouths but none of the Thamesdowns. My apologies to those of our number who cannot abide the NBC green . . . She has Southdown’s normal Northern Counties body of (in this case) FCO69F layout. She dates from 1964.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
29/06/15 – 06:55
Like many, I prefer buses with half cabs, but I quite liked the Southdown ‘Queen Mary’ Titans in their original form and I think that this one may have curved windows at the front which really didn’t go with the overall design. I also hated National green.
David Wragg
29/06/15 – 10:24
Thank you, David. I, for one, have never quite understood how a full front could possibly help with cooling the engine (and/or the cab!) Now, it could be achieved quite easily with a half cab. Still, design is what matters, rather than fitness for purpose. There are schools in Southampton which won design awards, but the roofs leak like sieves!
Pete Davies
30/06/15 – 06:43
At least this NBC Green is fresh, with a gloss. Probably done specially for the occasion! Three weeks hence and it would be faded and matt finish! Of course, I exaggerate, but only slightly! Nice to see a three-quarter rear view of a Queen Mary.
Chris Hebbron
30/06/15 – 09:53
This is an interesting question Pete. Forward control “Queen Mary” lorries became almost universal in this country but I suppose the driver tended to be over rather than alongside the engine. Nevertheless smaller goods vehicles had the engine in the cab. Was it also a question of designing buses for looks- with poor insulation and airflows? On the other hand, half-cabs gave better access and better visibility, especially on the kerbside- allowing for some tin-fronts, but at the cost of looks and municipal pride. Then we got Wulfrunians, Ailsas and a whole lot of rear engines… problem solved?
Joe
30/06/15 – 09:55
Thank you, Chris. There were two of these in overall advertising livery, “Maritime Britain” which are too dreadful for publication, as well as some of the early ‘flat front’ VR members of the fleet. I have one in mind for a future offer.
Pete Davies
01/07/15 – 06:29
There are hundreds of photos of the iconic Southdown Northern Counties/Leyland Titan PD3/4 showing the front near quarter but not so many of the rear end. At first glance I wasn’t sure if I was looking at a Bristol VR top half or a Bristol FLF bottom half. I was never a fan of the NBC livery or the fact that so many interesting liveries were lost, if only we all had digital cameras in those days.
Ron Mesure
02/07/15 – 05:56
There’s an old saying -“An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance”. By the early 1960s in the psv world, the ‘modern look’ was enshrined in the likes of the Atlantean, Fleetline and Wulfrunian, none of which remotely rivalled the traditional front engined chassis in terms of reliability or cost effectiveness. Southdown, amongst others, sought to achieve the best of both worlds by fitting full fronted bodywork to front engined machinery, progressively pursuing this policy to the bitter end with curved glass and panoramic windows. The public, it was thought, would be taken in by appearances. It was the adoption of one person operation for double deckers that finally knocked this philosophy on the head. I agree that the best of the Southdown PD3 “Queen Marys” (there is a school of thought that vociferously refutes this nickname, but it was widely used nonetheless) were the original flat screen versions. The desperate later efforts with curvy glass and panoramic side windows looked like creatures from the Heath Robinson Design Bureau to my eye, akin to fitting wide tyres, twin headlamps, bonnet airscoops and a rear spoiler to a Reliant Robin.
Roger Cox
02/07/15 – 08:35
Well said, Mr Cox!!!
Pete Davies
03/07/15 – 06:36
…not to mention go-faster stripes! Patrick Hutber, a Sunday Telegraph journalist/economist coined the saying that “Improvement means deterioration” which equally applies to the sort of problems which arose with changes from front to rear engine’d buses you mention, Roger. The slightly later Ailsa, while not perfect, trod a good path of compromise in both engineering and OMO terms and was quite popular, if not the runaway success it arguably merited, being everything the Wulfrunian was not!
BUF 279C fleet number 279 is nearest the camera in this view taken at Dunsfold on 10 April 2011. Her close cousin, 972 CUF fleet number 972, is alongside. Both are Leyland titan PD3/4 vehicles with Northern Counties FH69F bodies. 972 was new in 1964 and 279 is from 1965. The third member of the group is UUF 116J fleet number 516, a Bristol VR/ECW combination. The vehicle is obviously too new for these pages, but it does show what a timeless livery the Southdown one was – dignified on any outline and far better than certain random applications of paint seen on too many buses these days.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
13/04/16 – 06:04
The “dignified colour scheme” seems to have had quite an evolution. When venturing darn sarth many years ago, the scheme that impressed and still does is that olivey green which can be seen on the ill-starred 1952 PD2 “coach” on this site. We seem to have moved on here, even allowing for colour process and it’s now a bit vivid – but at least not the miserable NBC green which has also featured here.
Joe
13/04/16 – 06:05
Attached are 2 pictures of 279 with OK Motor Services of Bishop Auckland. This bus was my regular vehicle when I worked there, on the Bishop Auckland to Wolsingham School AM journey.
Stephen Howarth
13/04/16 – 13:42
Joe, I ventured ‘darn sarth’ many years ago, but I stayed! I only remember this style and the NBC green. Perhaps the livery on that PD2 was a failed experiment! My trouble is that, when I return to the north west, folk up there think I’m a Southerner. Nice views, Stephen! Another dignified livery.
Pete Davies
13/04/16 – 13:43
The Southdown livery is one of my favourites, along with Royal Blue and Brighton Corporation/BH&D, before the Corporation changed to an insipid blue and white, while BH&D was absorbed by Southdown and the livery became the much detested National Green.
David Wragg
14/04/16 – 06:02
I am Sussex born and bred, and feel I can make some comments on Southdown livery. The green used on most preserved vehicles tends to be a little too bright. From memory, and looking at some of the other Southdown colour pics on this site and in various books, Southdown green was slightly more ‘yellowy’ and closer to a true apple green. However, we should not let this detract from the splendid job that the preservationists have done.
Roy Nicholson
14/04/16 – 08:14
Interesting, Roy. The Southdown which made such an impression on me was yes, apple green (introduced, it says somewhere, in 1932) which was less vivid and yes a bit yellowy or even olivey. If you look around the net, there seem many shades of Southdown green, but occasionally I see the one I remember. It went with holidays!
Joe
31/07/17 – 07:25
Southdown livery brings back many happy memories of holidays with relatives in Fareham in the 1960’s, taking buses to Lee-on-Solent or Southsea
Andrew Stevens
23/11/17 – 07:23
I drove one of these in the eighties. It had been converted for exhibitions, with lengthways seating, a fridge, sink and a bar upstairs and downstairs. It was registered as a motor caravan by this time. I’m fairly positive it is no longer in existence.
Taken in the summer of 1963 in the Old Steine area of Brighton this photo is of Southdown 756 one of a batch of ten Leyland PD2/12’s with Northern Counties H30/26RD bodies No’s 755-764 delivered in 1953. These always appeared wider and heavier than any of the other four body builders used by Southdown on their PD2/12 fleet No’s 701-812 the others being Leyland (my personal favourites) 701-754, Park Royal 765-776, Beadle (on Park Royal frames) 777-788 and East Lancs 789-812 Southdown’s last half cabs. Prior to these came No 700 the well known coach bodied PD2/12 with Northern Counties FCH28/16RD body which was trialled on London express services from Eastbourne somewhat unsuccessfully due to body roll and a sluggish performance. This was Southdown’s only 4 bay D/D body and also had small extra windows above the lower deck half drops and quarter lights in the roof.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
19/05/14 – 09:19
What an odd mixture of styles. The panelling and the roof look like a throwback to the 1930s the foremost and rearmost nearside upper deck windows and the half drop windows have a touch of RT about them yet the front upper deck windows are totally NCME.
Phil Blinkhorn
19/05/14 – 15:39
The Southdown PD2s (701-812) were buses I grew up with in Portsmouth, being seen on a daily basis, although not so frequently used due to my school route being along Copnor Road. Southdown did not have a regular service along that road, so I relied on Portsmouth Corporation routes. The NCME members of that series were my “least favourites”, as they all seemed rather “dark” inside. Were the windows smaller? However, they must have been good buses, as Southdown had “discovered” NCME with some of it’s Guy utilities and early post war Arab IIIs, and followed later by 285 Queen Mary’s. When they were new, we didn’t know them as Queen Mary’s, though. I only became familiar with the term many years later (c.1979). Diesel Dave also refers to 700, the PD2/NCME coach. It’s final years were spent at Bognor, and I saw it several times parked in the yard at the back. It didn’t seem well used! Rather a shame when other operators like Ribble and EYMS made good use of a small fleet of double-deck coaches. It’s a puzzle that Southdown didn’t succeed when others could, and did.
Michael Hampton
19/05/14 – 17:59
I also grew up with the Southdown PD2/12’s on Route 22 (Brighton – Midhurst) travelling to school at Steyning, and vesting grandparents in Brighton. NCME bodied ones were my least favourite, and agree with Michael that they always appeared dark inside, probably due to the brown rexine panelling and varnished wood strip below the window line, and also the half glazed doors. Southdown specified half drop windows up to 1955. All 1956 deliveries of PD2’s and Arab IV’s had sliding vents. My favourites were the East Lancs versions. These had fully glazed sliding doors, and the platform areas were finished in green rather than the murky brown previously used.
Roy Nicholson
09/01/15 – 05:52
Like Michael Hampton, I also grew up in Portsmouth riding the PD2/12’s. A big thank you to Diesel Dave for the data on the bodywork. One thing that has been bugging me for years – which of the bodies had the sliding door?
Southdown Motor Services Ltd 1950 Leyland PD2/12 Northern Counties FCH28/16RD
In the post about Southdown’s Leyland Titan PD2 756 (MUF 456), Diesel Dave made mention of Southdown’s one-off 700 and Michael Hampton said he saw it in Bognor Depot’s Yard. KUF 700 was Southdown’s 700, a 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/12 with Northern Counties FCH28/16RD bodywork and was intended to be the first of a fleet of such vehicles for use on express services from the South Coast to London. It began work on the Eastbourne to London service, but proved totally unsuitable, suffering excessive body-roll and under-performance, being overweight and therefore under-powered. By 1952, it was relegated to private hire and bus work. This photo was taken at Bognor Depot in 1959, with the bus still looking remarkably chipper and still possessing its coach seats, although with its roof lights painted over. In this limbo situation, it somehow survived in service until 1966, when it was taken into Portslade works for conversion to a breakdown tender, but the work remained unfinished and the vehicle languished there for some six years, eventually being scrapped there in 1973. Sixteen years active life for a bus, which was somewhat of an embarrassment, could be considered quite an achievement, as it happens. The lower front bears a definite resemblance to Southdown’s later Queen Mary’s and the body, as a whole, still has the overall look of NCME’s pre-war models, notably the Leicester AEC Renowns of 1939, a design not destined to last much longer.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
15/01/15 – 06:10
It is wonderful to see Chris’s colour photo of Southdown 700 as I only have a B/W photo which I bought in 1958 from the late Eric Surfleet of Lancing. This shows 700 on an excursion still in it’s original livery which had green window surrounds and the usual dark green lining on the horizontal beading also the corner bumpers on the front and rear,the bumpers are still on the front at least even after it’s repaint. The top deck coving panels were I believe always translucent and not clear glass. Sad to say despite living in the area at the time, and attending school in Hailsham which was on it’s route, I don’t recall seeing this fine vehicle.
Diesel Dave
15/01/15 – 09:31
Thanks to Chris for the great colour shot of 700, and Diesel Dave for it in it’s earlier more public life. As I said in the earlier posting, my usual sightings of it were c. 1960-62, and it was always in the Bognor yard. But it was always in a different position, so clearly saw some use. It does seem strange that East Yorkshire and Ribble operated a small fleet of such vehicles with (presumably) some success, while Southdown, usually effective in their plans, found they could not make 700 work on the coach work originally envisaged. A fleet of such vehicles on the 31 had to wait until the Queen Mary PD3s arrived, and they didn’t have coach seats!
Michael Hampton
15/01/15 – 10:32
What a wonderful photo – thanks Chris for posting it. As many readers will know, this vehicle has generated interested on the SCT61 website and it is good to see these two further views of this magnificent coach. When it was downgraded to bus duties, did it keep the luggage areas in the lower saloon? If so, a capacity of just 16 must have been a major factor in its demise. A similar fate befell the East Yorkshire and Ribble d/d coaches but at least they managed to get 20 and 22 seats respectively in their lower saloons.
Paul Haywood
15/01/15 – 11:21
Following Michael H’s comments, here’s a photo of a Leyland PD2 49-seat Ribble White Lady. There were 50 of them, in two batches, with bodies (5-bay) by Burlingham and 4-bay East Lancs ones. There seems an irony to put a lowbridge body on a so-called coach, but it did not seem to affect custom!. Ribble – //tinyurl.com/os4f47k And here’s a photo of East Yorkshire’s Leyland PD2 with Roe normal height body. East Yorkshire – //www.sct61.org.uk/ey568 There was something very satisfying about double-deck coach design of this period, even conventional half-cab types. I recall the West Yorkshire version of a Bristol K6B Scarborough Express, way down the OBP page, the upper photo, not the lower abomination! SEE //tinyurl.com/ono24n2
Chris Hebbron
23/02/15 – 14:31
I remember 700 KUF 700 very well as a school boy in Bognor yard where I spent most of my after school time. Bob Mustchin the foreman in the garage took me under his wing and many a time I helped him shunt it around the yard when it been dumped from a private hire or bus relief working. This led to me buying one of the left luggage offices D689 HCD 449 which has been fantastically restored now by Bob Gray. The yard has a vivid memory for me with a flint stone boundary with access only through the bus station rear doors until the retail development created an entrance from Queeensway giving access directly into the yard and changing the in/out pattern for local services and coaches. I remember the transition from TD5’s TS7/8’s with PD2 1’s through to underfloor Leylands and the arrival of PD2/12’s to PD 3’s
Clifford Jones
13/03/15 – 07:12
I have posted my memories of this vehicle already however I would like to add that the B/W photo of it showing an excursion blind in taken in Bognor Regis High Street with 700 heading west as Lloyds bank is in the background. My family banked there with the International store visible to the right including trees in the foreground which were a feature in the High Street of that era. I have a photo of 700 solitarily languishing in the corner of Bognor yard against a corner of the flint wall overshadowing the Queensway development which would shortly see the demise of the wall. My memories of Southdown in Bognor my birth place are being prepared.
Clifford Jones
13/03/15 – 16:52
I, for one, will look forward to your jottings of Southdown in Bognor Regis, Clifford. I lived in Pompey for 20 years, the Western boundary of Southdown. I travelled on its two most Westerly routes (I think), from Portsmouth to Warsash and Portsmouth to the somewhat mundane place name, Meon Hut! Your mention of International Stores reminds me of all the other grocery stores of the time: Home & Colonial, Pearks, Maypole Dairies, David Greig and, of course, Sainsbury, before it became a supermarket. Other, later stores/supermarkets were MacFisheries (our first local supermarket), Victor Value (bought by Tesco), Bejam, Kwiksave and Somerfield. But I digress!
Chris Hebbron
14/03/15 – 12:50
Chris, you left out Lipton’s, another of the names from our nostalgic past before the present age of bland uniformity.
Roger Cox
14/03/15 – 16:14
Chris, the place you are thinking of west of Portsmouth on a Southdown route is the West Meon Hut. It’s a pub at the junction of the A32 and A272. The actual West Meon village is nearby. A friend of mine once owned an RM stored near here, and it could be a useful venue once we returned from a rally day when the RM had finished it’s day out. I don’t think the Southdown route terminated here, though short workings might have done. It was the 38, and in the 1950’s I remember Guy Arab utilities thundering up Southwick Hill Road out of Cosham heading for Southwick, Wickham and Droxford. At some point a railway closure entered the picture, and the route was extended to Alton. However, the usual buses then were saloons, such as the 1500 series Royal Tigers or 620 series Tiger Cubs. Strangely, I don’t recall these so well, but have seen photos in various Southdown books in my collection. I too will be interested to see Clifford’s Bognor Regis notes – I was always fascinated with the occasional visit to Chichester and Bognor with their own set of routes down to the Witterings, Sidlesham, etc.
Michael Hampton
16/03/15 – 06:43
Roger C – I should have remembered Liptons, but there wasn’t one around my area. Michael H – It was a 1500 series Royal Tiger around 1964, after they’d been converted to OMO operation. I went with GF and friend with his GF, too. We had lunch at the pub there. The bus performed well, but was a bit creaky, I recall. Nice-looking vehicles, though. You mention the austerity Guy Arabs thundering up the hill. Did they have 5 or 6LW engines, or a mixture of both, or did Southdown upgrade them at some time. I only travelled on them to and from the Hayling Ferry, when they were open-toppers and never noticed what they were on dead-flat Hayling Island!
Chris Hebbron
16/03/15 – 11:54
Chris, I don’t recall whether the Guys I remember had 5LW or 6LW engines. I don’t have access to my SEC books at the moment, but I think Southdown had a mixture as new in the war, and they did swap engines around afterwards, too. Will have to investigate later, unless others have more immediate knowledge.
Michael Hampton
17/03/15 – 06:16
Economic, Grandways, Gateway (didn’t they become Somerfield?), Hillards, and perhaps most recently Jacksons. I think Economic, Grandways, and Hillards were local to the Yorkshire area. I wonder if there is an “Old Grocery Photos” website where people are posting “not really to do with grocery shops but County Motors . . .”. Local ITV stations seem to have disappeared. One, very small, thing that seems to have bucked the trend is bus stop flags: the old Department for the Environment standard style of the early 1970s now seems to be in retreat in many places . . . such a shame about the buses stopping at them.
Philip Rushworth
17/03/15 – 16:49
They must be Yorkshire ones, Philip, I’ve only heard of Gateway/Somerfield, the latter of which has become the Co-op. I believe, which we’ve all heard of! The simple black on white bus stop flags are disappearing fast, in favour of ‘busy’ multi-coloured ones where the bus image is hardly discernable; at least that’s ‘the Stagecoach way’. I thought the original ones were an early attempt at helping those with impaired vision – they certainly don’t help now!
Chris Hebbron
18/03/15 – 06:58
This is only the beginning… Maypole, Meadow Dairy, Gallons, Thrift Stores, Melias, Home & Colonial… then there were the prominent grocers/bakers in every town – Arthur Davy in Sheffield, Hagenbachs, Hodgson & Hepworths in Doncaster, Vaux Bros in Ponty (Chris), Websters in Wakefield, Silvios in Bradford… how do I connect this to Old Bus Photos? Many Doncaster Corporation Buses had a big sunburst tween decks, advertising Dysons Flour, and these seemed always to be on derelict deckers in scrapyards or the “bus” ? canteen at Marshgate in Doncaster which peeped over the North Bridge Wall. How accurate is that bit of nostalgia therapy?
Joe
18/03/15 – 06:59
I’ve found some facts about the utility Guys and here are a few pertinent ones. Southdown received 100 examples: only the first two were Arab I’s. About 25% in total received 6LW engines, randomly supplied. Many 6LW-engined ones had engine swaps with 5LW engines before disposal. Not all open-topped conversions were fitted with 6LW engines, but those climbing to Beachy Head were. All the Arabs had gone by 1964. One survives into preservation.
Chris Hebbron
19/03/15 – 07:11
Thanks Chris H for the 5LW/6LW info – I’m away from my resources until the end of the month! The Portsmouth Arabs may have been 5LWs as delivered as Pompey is a flat area (Southwick Hill Road being a minor exception, although all cars bound for Waterlooville and northwards would have had the slog up the main London Road). However by the late 50’s those used on the 38 to Droxford etc may well have been upgraded. Just listening to some of the Guy Arabs in the sounds section of this site is an aural delight, too.
Michael Hampton
19/03/15 – 07:12
Bus stop signs: The bus logo on the stop plate was not for visibility. When introduced it formed part of the TRO (Traffic regulation order) that made parking restrictions enforceable – which is why it has the same outline as the bus on bus lane signs. Whether legislation has changed since I don’t know.
Alan Murray-Rust
12/04/15 – 07:10
Thank you for your comments while waiting for my observations. I was born in Bognor Regis in 1947 when my parents moved down from Croydon. My mother had a dress making shop with a flat above opposite the General Post Office which is how I became a bus enthusiast looking out of the window at the Southdown pre war buses stopping opposite and the occasional appearance of a Green Goddess fire engine when the siren went off. My memories are currently being compiled taking me from an enthusiast to a bus operator in Brighton. Look out for it on Classic Bus web site SCT’6.
Clifford Jones
09/01/16 – 17:46
Hi, just seen this article and comments. I remember this bus being in the Bognor area when I was young and for a while it ran on the 31 Portsmouth to Brighton service, and at the time was common knowledge that it had been exhibited at the Festival of Britain on the South Bank, showing the future of British Transport. Assuming this is correct then it is a pity it came to a disappointing end.
Brian Allsopp
10/01/16 – 05:57
Alan, with regard to your post of March 2015 [which I seem to have missed] in respect of the bus stop poles and signs, they are in the Department For Transport’s (or whatever that outfit is called this week!) Traffic Signs Manual, which prescribes the assorted outlines typefaces and dimensions. The picture of the bus was supposed to be the right sign before I retired, and it was black on a white background. Yes, I know, an increasing number of operators use their own, which makes me wonder if the rules have changed in the not too distant past! Equally, the post ‘shall’ – the manual used to say – be black or silver. So much for the operator’s livery colour!
Pete Davies
10/01/16 – 10:53
I always imagined that bold ‘black bus on white background’ consistency was introduced to help those with sight impairment, entirely logical, but perhaps misguided by the way it’s fast disappearing. Stagecoach are introducing such multi-coloured ones with fancy writing/numbers, that I, who suffer from colour-blindness, has difficulty making out the dedicated route numbers on the various signs. I must look out for the manual you mention, Pete. Maybe I can throw a spanner in the works!
Chris Hebbron
11/01/16 – 09:26
Paul H (15/01/15 – 10:32) implies that, like Southdown’s KUF 700, Ribble’s early post-war double-deck coaches were, in due course, downgraded to buses. In fact, that only happened in respect of the first 30 (2518-47: BRN 261-90 – later renumbered 1201-30), which were actually PD1/3, only the last 20 being PD2/3. From the mid-1950s they were demoted to bus work, with the luggage pens replaced by seats, presumably raising capacity to 53. They were also repainted in bus livery, but I understand that these things (demoting/increasing capacity/repainting) did not necessarily all occur at the same time. After becoming buses, they were particularly associated with Ribble’s Furness operating area. The later PD2/3s (1231-50: DCK 202-21) were never downgraded to buses, they remained on medium distance express services until replaced by Atlanteans 1266-85 (RRN 415-34) in 1962.
David Call
11/01/16 – 13:37
Brian A above says No 700 was at the Festival of Britain in 1951. I’m not sure about that, as I thought it was one of the standard Leyland-bodied PD2/12s on show at that event. In C. Carter’s book “The Heyday of the Bus, the Postwar Years”, there is a picture of No.701 (KUF 701) on a plinth there. This was the first of 24 such vehicles, followed by another 30 (Later ones had bodies by other makers). If 700 visited as well, was it just on an excursion, or was it an additional exhibit?
Michael Hampton
15/12/18 – 06:38
I was a regular in Bognor Regis bus garage from 1964 to 1973 and I never saw KUF 700 do any other work than an occasional schools bus service.
This bus must of been brand new when I took this picture it certainly looks that way. If I remember correctly Middlesbrough Corporation used route letters rather than route numbers which was quite novel. I think they only had 2 single deckers in there fleet this one and its sister which was fleet no 2.
I was in the depot at the time this one was delivered. It was put in the paint shop. It smelt lovely. I remember it like yesterday. It and No 2 ran the S route to Seamer.
Chris Johnson
18/07/11 – 17:15
Unhappy memories of this bus! When I was about 14 I used to visit a friend in Newby and get the ‘S’ home, getting off at Kirby School. One Saturday Roman Road was closed so the route was diverted down Orchard Road and The Avenue, then up St Barnabas Road to re-join Roman Road/Ayresome Green Lane. Because the bus stop by the Conservative Club in Orchard Road was closer to home I thought I’d get off there, but the miserable driver wouldn’t stop as it wasn’t a normal stop, and instead took me all the way up to the General Hospital before he’d let me off, giving me a really long walk home. I never trusted bus drivers after that!
I do not have many photos of rear engined buses they did not have the same charisma has the front engined buses, a little bit boxy for me. Although this Northern Counties body on this bus does look good, mind you I think it was brand new at the time I took the photo. According to the fleet lists I researched the information from for this bus it is classed as a highbridge body but the fleet number ends in an “L” which would suggest lowbridge so why the “L”? If you know, let me know, please leave a comment. Photo taken again at the old Bradford bus station, and the bus in the background is an AEC Regent V of Yorkshire Woollen District.
The term “lowbridge” or “highbridge” refers to whether or not the bus has a sunken offside or a central gangway on the upper deck, and not to the overall height of the bus. Any bus with a drop-centre rear axle (Lodekka, Fleetline, later Atlanteans etc. can be lower in overall height than one with a conventional straight rear axle and still have a centre gangway upstairs, at the expense of a more complicated floor layout in the lower saloon. Tracky were plagued by lots of low bridges, so they nearly always went for the low height option, and the fleet number code was intended to tell staff where the bus could safely go, rather than the seating layout.
David A Jones
That’s a lovely picture of a Tracky bus and shows a service which disappeared some time ago. The 66 service to Sheffield was a marathon and took 2 hours and 44 minutes to get from one end to the other. It was split in the late sixties and after that Sheffield C fleet double-deckers, which also worked the service, were no longer seen in Bradford. Yorkshire Traction took a brief break before returning with joint operation of a revised Huddersfield to Bradford via Cleckheaton service in the early seventies.
David Beilby
The PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans had the Albion Lowlander drop axle and a Daimler gearbox. Early PDR1/1s were not particularly good or reliable – especially compared with PD Titans – but the nadir was reached with drop axle versions. It took until 1972 for Leyland to produce another top quality bus, the AN68 Atlantean, which never had a drop axle version. [By that time, Leyland offered either the Daimler Fleetline or Bristol VRT for this option.]
David Oldfield
The PDR1/3 wasn’t something to be proud about as a manufacturer. If I remember rightly there were only somewhere just over eighty built and it was pretty bad. The Fleetline was a much better proposition.
Andrew
27/02/11 – 17:06
The 66 service, and also the 67 Sheffield – Barnsley -Leeds, disappeared in April 1971 as part of an NBC reorganisation, and Sheffield buses then no longer ran north of Barnsley. Sheffield JOC and “Tracky” were joint operators on both routes, with Yorkshire Woollen on the 66 and West Riding on the 67. Part of the 66 route became “Tracky” service 109 Barnsley – Dewsbury.
Geoff Kerr
27/02/11 – 21:00
Strictly speaking, Sheffield JOC disappeared in 1970, with the formation of NBC – which is why Yorkshire Woollen received the C Fleet buses (including PD2/ECW and PDR1/Weymann). Sheffield did continue going north of Barnsley, but on the White Rose Express which eventually faded until the pre-Stagecoach private Yorkshire Traction axed it within the last ten years. Tracky used ex-Lincoln double deck coaches in latter days.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
Yes, I should have written “and Sheffield Corporation buses (which took over the JOC share of the 65/66/67 after its winding up in 1970) no longer ran north of Barnsley on a local stopping service.” Interestingly, I’ve just come across a photograph taken in 1967 of a Sheffield Corporation Atlantean at Bradford working the 66. This was either working off mileage accumulated on Corporation A routes by C fleet buses or maybe the depot had nothing else to send out.
Geoff Kerr
03/03/11 – 08:50
Geoff, your 1967 Atlantean could have been doing both. I have a picture of PDR2/1/Park Royal 193 (WWB 193G) on a demonstration loan to someone on service 26 to Bradshaw. (I’m sure someone will tell me where.)
David Oldfield
24/08/11 – 08:26
David, Service 26 to Bradshaw – that will be Halifax. Halifax Corporation/JOC operated Fleetlines but had no Atlanteans – presumably they wanted to try one.
Geoff Kerr
10/12/11 – 12:27
Just a comment regarding the Daimler Fleetline vehicles which were operated by “Tracky” I drove these vehicles during my time at “Tracky” and hated them, the brakes were very poor with absolutely no pedal “Feel”, quite often the pedal was “on the floor” and the vehicle was just stopping in it`s own time, very disconcerting I can tell you. The steering was vague, and engine performance left a lot to be desired, this just about summed up the general standard of Daimler vehicles.
David Adshead
11/12/11 – 06:45
David, interesting perspective. I would personally agree with you about the Fleetline but it says a lot about the PRD1 Atlantean that people moved away from it in droves towards the Fleetline – especially “Leyland” companies like Tracky.
David Oldfield
11/12/11 – 06:47
If the YTC Fleetlines suffered from poor engine performance, then somebody in the engineering department must have been tinkering with the Gardner engine speed governors to reduce the output in an attempt to lift the mpg. The 1968 batch had 6LXB engines running up to 1850 rpm, but the 6LX motors installed in the earlier Yorkshire Woollen District Fleetlines were certainly not lacking in power if set correctly, even if the modest 1700 rpm governed speed did somewhat limit maximum road performance.
Roger Cox
15/01/17 – 07:18
Just re-visiting this site and read the comment from David Oldfield and Roger Cox regarding the Daimler Fleetlines, it seems pretty obvious to me that they never drove these horrible buses, one in particular (Fleet No 663) was absolutely dire, right from new it had no power, booked off repeatedly for P**S poor performance, it never got any better, on one journey to Highburton near Huddersfield I had to ask the passengers to get off and wait until I came back down the hill because the horrible thing could not manage the hill with 20 or so passengers on board, after serious complaining the company sorted it, they banned the vehicle from further use on that route.
David Adshead
15/01/17 – 11:01
Its amazing how individual drivers have opinions oceans apart on various bus models. For my money, with considerable experience, the Fleetline (Daimler or later Leyland) was the finest of the first generation of rear engined buses – I always loved them, and can’t remember ever driving a really “duff” one.
Chris Youhill
15/01/17 – 11:15
David A, having read your comments on the Fleetline, I must put myself firmly in the camp of David O, and Roger. Before you ask, yes, I have driven Fleetlines a mile or several thousand, and for me they were a far superior vehicle to the PDR1/1 Atlantean. Between 1967 & 1975, I was a driver at NGT Percy Main depot, and we had both Atlanteans and Fleetlines. I left Percy Main in 1975, and I have limited experience of later Atlanteans.
Percy Main Atlantean and Fleetline up to 1968: PDR1/1 Atlantean 1960: CFT 636/644 – 236/244 Weymann DFT 245/249 – 245/249 Roe 1962: FFT 754/761 – 254/261 Roe CRG6LX Fleetline 1963: HFT 366/375 – 266/275 Weymann 1964 JFT 276/280 – 276/280 Weymann 1965 AFT 783/789C – 283/289 Alexander 1967 DFT 290/292E – 290 292 Alexander 1968 EFT 693/702F – 293/302 Alexander
If as you say, your Fleetlines wouldn”t pull, then it must have been the way they were set up. The ones we had didn”t have the top speed of an Atlantean, but even with a full load they were more than capable of keeping pace with the traffic, and as for hill climbing, they could literally leave an Atlantean for dead. The standard of maintenance at P/M was extremely high, nevertheless, breakdowns with an Atlantean were not uncommon, and I lost count of the number of times one packed up on me. I contrast, I can count on one hand with fingers to spare, the amount of time I was let down by a Fleetline. Unfortunately, when NBC came into being, and the lunatics had taken control of the asylum, despite the vehement protests of NGT, most of our Fleetlines were transferred to East Yorkshire Motor Services.
Ronnie Hoye
15/01/17 – 14:55
Yorkshire Tracky PD’s out of Doncaster could, I suggest, tell the same tale as David A’s Fleetlines: they felt sadly underpowered and unlike Doncaster CVD’s, never got a move on: the drivers seemed reluctant to change down- probably because they daren’t drop the revs, so the most modest railway “flyover” hill turned into “can a do it”? What was that about messing with the governors?
Joe
15/01/17 – 16:12
I found this particular thread this morning. My student days were in Birmingham in the mid to late sixties, so after the comparative trials between the Fleetlines and the Atlanteans. It can’t have been just coincidence that they bought Fleetlines and very little else thereafter.
Pete Davies
17/01/17 – 06:56
I suspect decisions to buy Fleetlines rather than Atlanteans were much more often influenced by the availability of Gardner (high torque at low speed and fuel frugal) engines!
Geoff Pullin
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
17/12/18 – 07:18
All the Atlanteans and Daimlers were fitted with a Semi Automatic gearbox by Self Changing Gears Co Ltd Coventry, they had nothing to do with Daimler other than supplying the gearbox, British Leyland bought the rights to this gearbox and fitted it to all the later BL buses as standard.
David
18/12/18 – 07:14
I assume David’s comment is in response to David Oldfield’s statement that the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans had a Daimler gearbox. When the PDR1/2 first appeared, no less an authority than Alan Townsin wrote: “The gearbox is a Daimler direct selection epicyclic unit, as fitted to the Fleetline, with concentric drive.” (British Double Deckers Since 1942, published 1965) A later article in Commercial Motor magazine, describing the problems Nottingham Corporation had with their PDR1/2 Atlanteans, says: “This model, since dropped by Leyland, employed Daimler epicyclic gearboxes in place of the usual SelfChanging Gears epicyclic box, featuring an output drive on the same side as the input drive of the gearbox and thus facilitating the lower axle installation. Read more at //archive.commercialmotor.com/
Verwood Transport 1966 Guy Arab V 6LW Northern Counties H41/32F
WTE159D is a Guy Arab V with Northern Counties H73F body (well, she did start her life with Lancashire United!) in service with Verwood Transport. The indicator display has been altered to suit a more rural operation, and we see her in the yard at Mallard Road during an open day at the Bournemouth Corporation transport depot on 22 May 1983.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/09/16 – 07:16
This beauty gives one a good idea of what a front entrance Middlesbrough Arab would have looked like. Quite superb in my opinion!
Chris Hough
22/09/16 – 13:21
Thanks, Chris. When Wilts & Dorset took the firm over, they were so impressed that they painted a VR – S suffix so too new for these pages – in Verwood livery. Equally smart.
Pete Davies
22/09/16 – 15:07
I seem to remember that the proprietor of Verwood Transport trained as a driver at Middlesbrough and that’s why he chose the blue livery.
Stephen Allcroft
22/09/16 – 16:42
So, Stephen, a variation on the theme of Managers taking the livery of their former command to their new one – there are several instances in these pages!
Pete Davies
24/09/16 – 07:42
In the early 1980s Verwood was a growing community somewhat neglected by public transport. Hence Andy Wood stepped in to provide services to Poole and Christchurch on different days. As Verwood Transport , he acquired a Leyland PD3 ex Brighton Corporation. This was soon replaced by the Guy Arab shown. Both vehicles and indeed subsequent rear engine vehicles were always worked OMO [as it was known in those days]. The Guy was unique in the area and was much appreciated by passengers and enthusiasts.
Keith Newton
24/09/16 – 07:43
These buses had deep, vertically slatted grilles either side of the destination boxes when they were with LUT. Were they fitted with Cave-Browne-Cave heating equipment when new or were the grilles for some other purpose? Either way, this beautifully presented vehicle has had them removed and replaced with very much smaller, natural air vents.
Chris Barker
24/09/16 – 08:39</EM>< em>
Keith, I wasn’t aware of an ex-Brighton PD3, never having seen it, but I do have a view somewhere in our Editor’s ‘in tray’ of a former BEA Routemaster.
Pete Davies
25/09/16 – 06:17
Unfortunately, due to lack of space following our recent move to a flat, most slides are unavailable at present so I cannot attach an image of the PD3. Likewise the Routemaster which was RMA11.
This subsequently passed to an operator in Leighton Buzzard who used it in full Verwood Transport livery.
After de-regulation, Andy together with Roger Brown [Shaftesbury & District] re-introduced services in the area and I have attached an image of RMA37 in the green livery seen in Christchurch.
Finally is an image of the rebuilt and extended Routemaster RME1 which remained in red and is seen in Salisbury.
Keith Newton
26/09/16 – 10:11
What superb liveries are the blue and green examples shown here. I’m having to pinch myself here to make sure that its not April 1st . Joking apart, I have never heard of the RME extended Routemaster – have you any more details please. Even allowing for the Routemaster’s legendary front and rear modules this must have been quite an engineering feat, requiring longer prop shaft and pipelines of varying sorts.
Chris the last time I saw RME 1 it was on a wedding special in Halifax for a Keighley operator.
Geoff S
27/09/16 – 11:15
Many thanks indeed Roger – I can’t understand how I’d never heard of this ambitious project, and very neatly and professionally executed I must say. I have to be quite honest, when I saw the picture I did think that it was a “spoof”
Chris Youhill
27/09/16 – 16:38
The centre staircase on RME1 is a one-piece grp unit from an Alexander bodied Ailsa.
Stephen Allcroft
28/09/16 – 06:20
I knew of the extended Routemaster Chris (Y), and think it is a fascinating vehicle, but assumed that the conversion would have been carried out by London Transport rather than Shaftesbury & District. It just goes to show that we should never underestimate the ingenuity of the independent operator. Looking at Keith’s photos of the blue and the green Routemasters made me drift off into two of those ‘what might have been’ moments. The blue RMA gives a hint of what Samuel Ledgard’s later purchases may have included, following on from its successful ex-LT RTs and RTLs. The green RMA’s livery is somewhat reminiscent of Leeds City Transport’s (although the upper deck window surrounds and roof would have been in the darker green of course), and could have been one of a batch bought new for use on the Leeds-Bradford 72 joint service with Bradford City Transport. Just idle thoughts I know but…….
Brendan Smith
28/09/16 – 06:21
I notice in the photo at Roger’s second link, dated 2010, that the vehicle has acquired a twin headlamp front.The even window-widths make for a much neater style than the later halfwindow-width extended RM’s.
Chris Hebbron
02/10/16 – 05:37
Just an update for Chris. RME1 was on a two RM wedding special passing through Shipley this afternoon for Red Bus Days of Keighley.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Electric Railway Co 1945 Guy Arab II Northern Counties UH30/26R
I am, basically, a tram and trolleybus enthusiast, and, unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of sampling the delights of the LCBER. By 1955, money was in short supply, and the trams were just about worn away, and the company decided to switch to motorbus operation. I did sample these, in 1956/7, and remember them with great affection. I think that the history of these buses, which succumbed to the mighty Crosville in 1961, has been largely overlooked, perhaps because of the nature of the tram to bus conversion, which was particularly noxious for a hard-core of true bred tramway enthusiasts! There were a dozen or so ex Southdown utility Arab 11s (as shot above), with 3 makes of body, supplemented by 2 later East Kent examples. There was also an ex-East Kent TD5 used only for the initial phase of driver training, and 2 ex Newcastle NCB bodied Daimler COG5s of 1939 vintage. One of the latter was converted to open top in 1956, and there were plans to likewise convert some of the Guys. I can vividly remember riding on the Guys, which reminded me at the time, of Bristol K5Gs, probably because of the crunchy gear change, not always well executed, and the growl of the 5LW. It would be very interesting to hear if other enthusiasts remember this fleet with the same affection as I do, and if there are any other photos out there! I do have an exact fleet list should interest demand it!
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Whitaker
11/05/12 – 08:09
Looks like Mostyn Street, Llandudno. Can anybody with more detailed knowledge of the area confirm or otherwise?
Stephen Ford
11/05/12 – 09:38
This photo has brought very fond memories of by first visit to Llandudno in 1956. Seeing these Guy Arabs operating as an independent Tramway Company gave me a feeling of David and Goliath as Crosville seemed to be the main operator in the area. For once I ignored the Crosville buses and rode on the LCBER buses to their depot at Rhos-on-Sea where a few trams still remained in the yard. I have always found bus companies operating with Tramway names fascinating as they reflect a proud heritage. How many other bus companies were operating with Tramway Company names in the fifties? Sadly LCBER was taken over by Crosville in 1961.
Richard Fieldhouse
11/05/12 – 12:00
One company that springs to mind is the Northern subsidiary Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads. A title they kept until they disappeared into the parent company in the seventies.
Chris Hough
12/05/12 – 07:44
I think Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company Limited was not renamed Bristol Omnibus Company Limited until the 1950s. Now First Somerset & Avon Limited it must surely be one of the oldest legal entities in the public transport field still operating as it was incorporated on October 1st 1887
Nigel Turner
12/05/12 – 07:46
Great posting and wonderful photo John, thanks very much. It just goes to show that many of the most interesting items on OBP are about lesser known operators, and LCBER are an excellent example of that. They were clearly very cost conscious, buying wartime bodied Guy Arabs; many operators had rebodied such vehicles years earlier, and 11/12 year old ones were hardly in the first flush of youth. It’s also interesting that they bought a Leyland TD5 for driver training when they had no Leylands in service, as is the decision to buy the two Daimlers with, presumably, pre-selector gearboxes, amongst the (very) crash gearbox Guys. And how did passengers react to the replacement of smooth and quiet electric traction with trundling 5LW’s? A final question, John – what was LCBER’s livery? It looks smart in your photo, I must say.
Roy Burke
12/05/12 – 07:49
I can remember Bristol, and Bath Tramways in the 1950s when I was stationed at RAF Yatesbury in Wiltshire.
Jim Hepburn
12/05/12 – 07:51
I think this bus’s registration is GUF 153, which was Southdown’s 453, a Guy Arab II, 5LW. (Ch: FD27379), built Feb 1945. Its Northern Counties body (3737) started as H30/26R, was rebuilt to H28/26R and re-engined as a 6LW in Dec 1950, then re-engined to 5LW again prior to withdrawal and sale in July 1956. It was one to escape being converted to an open-topper, like many of its cousins. Whether they realised it or not, they bought wisely with a Guy with Northern Counties bodies, who were given dispensation during the war to build metal-framed bodies, which would have given them far longer lives then their ‘green’-wood, wooden-framed cousins. The windows were rather shallow and out-of-proportion, but they were still rather handsome beasts and looked just as nice beheaded!
Chris Hebbron
12/05/12 – 07:53
Sadly, Chris, the Tyneside and Tramroads name was abandoned in 1965 and thereafter the rather more prosaic Tyneside Omnibus Company had to suffice until it became one of the last Northern subsidiaries (along with Gateshead) to be fully absorbed in, I think, 1976.
Alan Hall
12/05/12 – 08:15
Apologies for the wrong registration GUF 351. Later access to a fleet list, and closer perusal of the photo, has shown this bus to be GUF 159. As Stephen says, it is in Mostyn Street, Llandudno as far as I can tell. This bus was the second No.3, being purchased in 1957, to replace an identical vehicle, original No.3, GUF 128. The Northern Counties bodied examples were metal framed, and this would explain the earlier withdrawal of these buses compared to their Weymann and Park Royal sisters. It would have been much easier for former tramway engineers to maintain a composite body! I understand that a bus fleet list for LCBER will shortly be included in the fleet list section
John Whitaker
12/05/12 – 17:15
Didn’t Bath Electric Tramways and Bath Tramways Motor Co survive until c.1972, when absorbed into BOC?
Philip Rushworth
12/05/12 – 17:26
Just to answer Roy`s question about the LCBER bus livery; this was a deep crimson and cream, being the original tram colours from opening in 1907, until the green livery was adopted in the mid 1920s I presume they did not continue with the green livery after tramway abandonment, in order to differentiate their vehicles from the Tilling green of Crosville. As Richard says, it was also very unusual for me too, to let Bristols go by, but this was a notable and worthy exception!
John Whitaker
19/05/12 – 15:18
Further to my previous comment, I can now confirm the change of names for the following- Gateshead & District Tramways Co.Ltd. became Gateshead & District Omnibus Co. Ltd. on July 12th 1950 Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co Ltd became Bristol Omnibus Co Ltd on May 16th 1957 Tyneside Tramways & Tramroads Co.Ltd. became Tyneside Omnibus Co.Ltd. on March 4th 1965 and surely last of all – Bath Tramways Motor Co. Ltd. became Wessex National Ltd. on August 9th 1974
Nigel Turner
21/05/12 – 17:23
Having asked the question, many thanks Nigel for the details of ex Tramway Companies operating buses in England. Another one that I am aware of is the Rothesay Tramway Company that ceased tramway operations on the Isle of Bute in 1936 but was operating bus services on the Isle with the tramway name to at least to 1951. Scottish postings do seem to be absent at moment so perhaps someone with Rothesay details can assist.
Richard Fieldhouse
23/06/12 – 05:57
I’ve only ever visited Llandudno once, and I must have been 6 or younger, as we went by bus from Bolton – moved from there in 1954, when I was 6 – to Liverpool, then by steamer to Llandudno. It was a day trip, and my parents commented frequently about the fact that it was so foggy on the way, we were in time to disembark and join the queue to return. So, I never saw the trams or their replacement buses!
Pete Davies
23/06/12 – 21:23
When I was about five years old (1958ish) I took a steamer ride out into the Irish Sea from Llandudno aboard a vessel called the St Tudno. A few years later it sank. Moving back to the buses, Pete must have had a very long day to go and see some fog. There were no direct bus routes from Bolton to Liverpool until after deregulation (and even then Merseybus’s 510 service was short-lived), so the trip would have involved changing at Wigan (to the 320) or Atherton (to the 39 from “Manchester” – actually Salford).
Incidentally (here comes a bit of shameless self-promotion!) my new book on “Independent Buses in North Wales” will be out in the next few weeks and it includes the history of the L&CBER along with 29 other indies in the region. Just thought I’d let you know.
Neville Mercer
21/10/12 – 08:02
Lovely photograph of No 3 on Mostyn Street. I was captivated by the trams in 1943 and was heartbroken when they finished in 1956. I was 13 at the time and, like another contributor, only rode on the “Red Buses” when visiting the area. I am currently developing the definitive history of the L&CBER and am constantly looking for personal memories, photographs and memorabilia, particularly geographical tickets and timetables. Good photocopies are all that is required – not original documents, as it is the information only that I require. Should anyone be able to help, it would be very much appreciated and they could contact me through this site.
Geoff Price
06/01/14 – 07:45
I remember these buses when I used to go to stay at my Nains in Penrhynside. They were not liked by myself or the locals who did not want the trams to stop running. Locals referred to them as the “Rock & Roll” buses which summed up the ride they gave.
Trefor Davies
06/01/14 – 09:30
That’s a turnaround, Trefor. My experience and that of many others was that it was the trams which gave you the ‘Rock ‘n Roll’ treatment, especially those with four-wheel trucks. I travelled a lot on trams when a boy (London) and am glad to say that an aunt of mine humoured me by going on them for me instead of the far faster Tube trains, bless her!
Chris Hebbron
06/01/14 – 09:36
In the early 1950s the delightful Hastings trolleybuses – by then operated by Maidstone and District – proudly carried the fleetname “Hastings Tramways Company.” As a young enthusiast I found this delightful – and I also loved the description of the majestic Hastings and St.Leonards Promenade on the destination blinds – “FRONT.”
Chris Youhill
06/01/14 – 14:16
Re Chris Y’s comment on the Hastings destination “Front” if you go to the outer Hebrides you will find buses in Stornoway bearing the destination “Back” – a village around 6 miles out on the road to North Tolsta.
Stephen Ford
06/01/14 – 16:44
“Front” and “Back”! Now that would make quite a route to rival Lands End to John O’Groats, especially if it were undertaken in a 5LW powered utility Guy Arab (max speed 28mph).
Roger Cox
07/01/14 – 06:59
And, of course, on the return journey southward you would be travelling Back to Front!
Stephen Ford
07/01/14 – 08:14
Reminds me of the WWI newspaper headline: Haigh flies back to front.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
03/02/14 – 07:24
I used to catch the bus home from this stop when at Mostyn school its out side a the bakers Dale Jones which we nicknamed stale Jones We would try and catch a “red” bus because we discovered we could open the destination board on the top deck and wind it on, As these still had the previous routes on them it was great fun to watch the waiting customers at the next stops hoping to catch a bus to Rhos on Sea as the Glasgow city centre only pulled up, as they say Happy days
H41/32F body.
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
