Blue Bus Services – Daimler Fleetline – 325 YNU


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Blue Bus Services
1962
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Northern Counties H40/33F

Blue Bus Services was the operating name of Tailby & George who were located at Willington in Derbyshire.
This bus was the 54th Fleetline chassis built its sister vehicle registration 324 YNU was the first production Fleetline chassis built numbered 60003 the three chassis before were all owned by Daimler and were number 60000 a demonstrator registration 7000 HP, 60001 an experimental chassis and 60002 a demonstration chassis. Blue Bus Services actually purchased the demonstrator 7000 HP after it had done its rounds but unfortunately it and many other buses were destroyed when the Willington bus depot burnt down in 1976. 

07/03/11 – 09:22

Yes a great loss, I have a rare ring binder bound book on Blue Bus by a small long gone concern known as Morley’s Bible and Book shop, Nottingham Rd, Ilkeston. from about 1978.

Roger Broughton

07/03/11 – 16:09

Yes, I remember visiting the shop and knew the proprietor – John Moorley (spelt that way if I remember rightly).

Stephen Ford

18/03/11 – 07:55

I worked for Blue Bus for 4 years as an apprentice engineer and left to go to Nottingham City Transport in 1971. It was a fantastic, varied fleet that always looked smart in the hand painted argyle blue and cream livery. Buses were properly cleaned and mopped almost daily, a standard that was probably higher than many current operators achieve nowadays.
If I can help anyone who wants to know anything about the company or their buses I will, just ask, as I was proud to work there, and it set the scene for the vehicle standards I have worked to achieve ever since as an Engineering Director.
Incidentally, my last role was the accountability for engineering and maintenance for a 70,000 bus and coach fleet in the USA and Canada, including the ubiquitous Greyhound fleet. Not bad for a Blue Bus lad from the wilds of Willington!

John Ashmore

18/03/11 – 09:16

Big trees from little (blue) acorns grow! Perhaps you could write a potted history for the ARTICLES section – I’m sure we’d all be interested, especially in any amusing incidents.

Chris Hebbron

19/03/11 – 07:59

I think that 325 YNU was one of 10 pre production chassis, another of which was PMT L899 which had a virtually identical low height Northern Counties body and was delivered in 1962. L899 had chassis number 60027 which seems a bit high for a pre production chassis but that was what I was told whilst at PMT.

Ian Wild

07/05/11 – 18:43

Moorleys shop is certainly long gone but the company survives as a Print and Publishing company. I have retired but still take an interest in the business. Visit //www.moorleys.co.uk for both company history and current titles published.

John Moorley

28/01/12 – 08:46

Hi, I wonder if someone could help me. In this thread you mention a bus with the registration 7000 HP. I have found a photo of this bus and my Mum and I believe it could be my Dad driving it. (really exiting if it is as I only have one photo of my Dad)
The bus is in a Street in Sunderland, it is the number 23, destination Roker.
I am just trying to find out what year’s this bus was on the road, and if possibly find out when it was in Sunderland, then we can see if we can match it to the years my Dad was a driver.
I hope someone can help me a little with this.
Many thanks in advance

Lorna

28/01/12 – 17:35

Hi Lorna – well, 7000 HP was a Daimler “demonstrator” – ie one loaned to any interested operator to see if they would like to order some after a short trial. If your picture is in Sunderland it is likely to have been on loan to the Corporation for a very short spell – it was new in 1960 and was sold by Daimler in 1966 so the Sunderland loan must have been sometime in that very wide window.

Can anyone narrow it down to a closer date?

Chris Youhill

29/01/12 – 16:46

Just to add to Chris’s comment, indeed this vehicle was a demonstrator and went to many operators and spent a considerable time with Birmingham City Transport. The picture here: //www.flickr.com/  and date in text may help further.

Nigel Edwards

29/01/12 – 20:21

Lorna, Chris: As 7000 HP was a demonstration vehicle, and the first of Sunderland’s own Fleetlines arrived towards the end of 1962, I would suggest the photo could have been taken in 1961 or 1962.

Bob Gell

20/02/12 – 08:54

Hi Lorna
I also have a photo of 7000 HP in Sunderland on route 23 (Thorney Close). It’s in it’s demonstration livery similar to Birmingham Corporation’s, but has Sunderland Corporation showing on the top of the near side windscreen. Unfortunately it is not dated but looks to be 1961 or 1962 as suggested. The engine bonnet cover does not look to be the extended one fitted when a wider Cummins engine was installed as a mobile test bed, so I do not think it was 1965/6, at least.

John Ashmore

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

24/04/12 – 06:42

There is mention several times in these files of Geoff Hilditch. A former boss of mine (in Southampton City Council) once told me a story regarding the advent of the Dennis Dominator. My boss and Mr Hilditch had both worked for the same Council at one time and appear to have still been in contact when the Dominator entered the arena.
I’d have put this entry under the Dennis Dominator, but it doesn’t seem to appear in the menu on the right, so I’ll file it under Daimler instead.
Any readers who want something approaching the truth about how we came to have the Dominator, can find a suitable story on the “Encyclopaedia” website. There are some detail differences between what appears there and what my boss told me, but you’d expect that! Suffice to say that the Dominator was virtually a clone of the Fleetline.
Leyland, for their own reasons, didn’t want to sell Fleetlines to Mr Hilditch in the numbers he wanted to buy, and over the number of years he wanted to buy them. Leyland’s arrogance has been mentioned in these files, and it isn’t just relating to their bus production.

Pete Davies

24/04/12 – 09:07

…..but the sad thing is that we all use Leyland as a short hand for British Leyland Motor Corporation who made the proud and historic marque a toxic name and a laughing stock. Even through the bleak years, really good vehicles were produced AN68s, Leopards and Reliances to name but three. Any problems with these were mainly as a result of BLMC ownership which starved Leyland Bus of money for R & D – and possibly quality control. [Tigers, Titans and Olympians were all delayed years because of this starvation.] We can only gasp in astonishment at the arrogance and ignorance that forced the Leyland National Mark 1 on an unsuspecting market and public – and at the expense of the Bristol RE!

David Oldfield

24/04/12 – 16:29

Mention of the Dennis Dominator brings to mind the Dennis test bed for this model which was a former Leeds Daimler CVGLX/30 517 7517 UA Dating from 1959 and carrying a Roe body the bus was finished in a red livery and toured operators prior to production commencing.
In its new guise it was re engined and given Voith transmission and a Loline rear axle. It was eventually bought by Leicester for spares.
A fake Dominator visited 10 Downing Street as a publicity event. It was fake because it was actually an East Lancs bodied Atlantean of Brighton with a Dennis nameplate on the front! Of course South Yorks PTE had the largest fleet of Dominators in the UK with 349 buses and the solitary Dennis trolleybus which survives at Sandtoft Museum

Chris Hough

Hebble – Daimler Fleetline – DJX 351D – 351


Copyright Ian Wild

Hebble Motor Services
1966
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Northern Counties H43/31F

This was the only new rear engined double decker purchased by Hebble and originally numbered 351 in their feet. In 1970 it was renumbered 625 but in 1971 it passed to Halifax JOC as their 294 when they bought out the Hebble Stage Services. It fitted in well with the contemporary Halifax Fleetlines with similar bodies. When Halifax Corporation came under WYPTE control DJX 351D was renumbered 3294, it is during its PTE days that the destination equipment was updated. The photo was taken on its last day in service 8th February 1984 leaving Wainstalls on the cross town service to Causeway Foot.

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild


Although the bus is interesting (albeit perhaps a bit modern for my generation) my attention was caught by the destination. Halifax was famous for running services way out of town to remote spots, but it has always amazed me that they had a service to Causeway Foot, especially in tramway days. Were there plans to build houses out there? Was there a long-lost mill which generated traffic? The Causeway Foot Inn still exists, but that’s about it.

Paul Haywood


Good shot Ian not only for the bus but the scenery behind it, now that’s the Pennines I remember, feeling a touch home sick now.

Re Pauls comment, if memory serves me correct at one time Halifax route 63 was Steep Lane (3 miles west of Sowerby Bridge) through town to Causeway Foot, which by the way was pronounced by locals as Causi Fooit. I also think route 64 Hubberton a neighbouring hamlet to Steep Lane ran through to Pavement Lane which was about two miles short of Causeway Foot but at least there was the Illingworth housing estate there. I think the Causeway Foot route was purely to go to the limit of the Halifax Boundary there could be another reason, we will no doubt find out if there is.

Spencer


What may surprise those who don’t know is that this was the location of Halifax’s solitary trolleybus route, from Wainstalls to Mount Tabor where it connected with the trams. About as unlikely a trolleybus route as you would find and I think the highest in the country – a distinction in more modern times claimed by Huddersfield for their Outlane terminus.

David Beilby


02/05/11 – 12:59

Just a snippet of info from my personal history. I started my apprenticeship at Gardner engines in Patricroft in late 1964, and when I started I worked on the engine build line with a senior guy, George Pheasey. The engines were built from a bare crankcase/crankshaft with blocks/heads separate and a trolley full of other parts.
The Gardner 6LX in Hebble 351 was the first engine I built on the line on my own, probably in late 1965. The lead time for an engine build to it actually being part of a bodied bus was probably 6 months or so!
I remember it well as it was the only one in the Hebble order which was marked on the customer build sheet. Bus engines always had the customers shown but truck engines didn’t.
They were great engines, with tight tolerances and real craftsmanship for their time.

John Ashmore


07/05/11 – 18:36

Gardners were great engines indeed John, being built up to a standard rather than down to a price. The craftsmanship was apparent in the quality of the castings and other parts, the tight tolerances and attention to detail. I have very happy memories of fully overhauling Gardner 6LX/6HLX and 6LXB engines in the 70’s and 80’s at West Yorkshire’s Central Works, and derived a great deal of satisfaction in returning everything to original specification during assembly. Anything less would have felt like sacrilege. West Yorkshire replaced the Bristol AVW engine in one of its 1956 Lodekka LDs (DX48: RWY826) with a new Gardner 6LX unit in 1959, which managed to cover just over 500,000 miles before needing an overhaul. It had been partly stripped down at some point prior to this in order to monitor wear and tear, but was put back together and into DX48 again with only a few very minor parts needing replacement. (Albert Jackson, a fitter I worked with as an apprentice described the strip down as a ‘paraffin overhaul’). Even when the Lodekka was scrapped, its engine was removed by West Yorkshire and overhauled to live on in one of its Bristol VRTs! Gardner’s emphasis on weight-saving and keeping frictional losses to a minimum no doubt helped with their legendary fuel economy. Some companies recorded around 12 mpg from their Bristol FLF6Gs, and many RELH6G motorway coaches were said to have regularly achieved 12-15 mpg – figures that sadly can only be dreamed of with todays fuel hungry beasts!

Brendan Smith


08/05/11 – 10:21

I didn’t know Brendan that DX48 was Bristol engined when new – you learn summat new every day !! I believe though that DX 3 and DX 4 had Gardners from new but if you can confirm that please I’ll be obliged.

Chris Youhill


09/05/11 – 08:04

You are right regarding DX3 and DX4 Chris. They did have Gardner (6LW) engines from new. The 6LX that went into DX48 was one of the early LXs, as that engine had only been introduced in 1958. I can remember DX48 running in and out of Shipley when my family lived there between 1963-1966, and being intrigued by its somewhat gruff engine note compared to its siblings. It was only in later years I discovered that the LX was the reason. Apparently it enhanced DX48’s performance, but in its new guise the bus went through diffs at a fair rate at first. Whether the engine was fully rated initially (150 bhp) and later derated to a more modest output I do not know, but the diff situation apparently eased, so this may well have been the case.
Whilst on the subject of engine notes, another vehicle to attract my attention in those heady days was DX83 (YWW 78), which regularly performed at one point on the Bradford – Ilkley 63 route. (I seem to think it was an Ilkley vehicle). Although outwardly it looked like an LD Lodekka, the engine sound was different – somehow sounding smoother and more powerful to my young ears. Again it was only after joining the company as an apprentice, I learned that, along with several other later LDs (KDX75-77 and DX78-81), DX83 was an early recipient of Bristol’s new BVW engine – the AVW then being phased out. It remained one of my childhood favourites, along with WY’s solitary front entrance Lodekka DX82 (YWW 77), which I remember did a stint on the Keighley – Leeds 31 route in the early ‘sixties. Wonderful times!

Brendan Smith


09/05/11 – 08:09

Hebble DJX 351D had a spell with Yorkshire Woollen at Heckmondwike where it was numbered 147. It passed to Calderdale Joint Omnibus Committee in 8/71. Incidentally two of Y.W.D 683-693 (JHD 324-334J) Daimler Fleetline/Alexander of 1971 were ordered for Hebble but by the time they were delivered the company were no more.

Philip Carlton


09/05/11 – 08:59

Thanks Brendan for more fascinating and well informed memories of “the good old days.” Incidentally the infamous DX 82 was a frequent performer on service 34 Leeds – Otley – Ilkley where, provided it turned up, it was the fastest thing in Wharfedale. I make that provision because I’m almost certain that for some reason its reliability record was abysmal – I wonder if it fared any better in the North East when it was banished to United – its rear entrance replacement in the exchange, 456 LHN, was definitely a fine machine fondly remembered.

Chris Youhill


15/05/11 – 06:41

Your comments regarding the original DX82 are interesting Chris – especially the one relating to its reliability record. Whether it was related to it being the prototype FSF Lodekka I don’t know. Maybe the design or tolerances of some of the modified parts involved might have caused problems if they had been handcrafted specially for it, perhaps. Nice to know it was a ‘flyer’ for all that though!
Returning to things Hebble, this stirred up childhood memories of their buses plying between Bingley and Bradford (via Wilsden and Harden if memory serves correctly). They were a familiar sight parked in their ‘bus station’ on the waste ground next to The Myrtle cinema at the top of Main Street. I can still recall returning from grandma’s one dark night and seeing a Hebble AEC Regent V parked there displaying its illuminated advert panel for all to see. It certainly made an impact as you could see it for quite some distance.

Brendan Smith


15/05/11 – 17:47

Many thanks Brendan for another important and interesting fact of which I was unaware till now – that DX 82 was a prototype. I’m sure you’re right about the Hebble intermediate points between Bradford and Bingley – I never travelled on them, but I have a firm memory of seeing the destination blinds in Bradford set to “BINGLEY Harden Wilsden.”

Chris Youhill


16/05/11 – 09:07

Hebble’s 19 service ran exactly as you described, basically on a half-hour frequency.

David Beilby


16/05/11 – 09:09

Just a quick story about Hebble if I may. I work for West Yorks PTE and was speaking to a caller the other week who was complaining about the unreliable nature of the current 508 (Halifax-Leeds) service, which was basically the old Hebble route until their demise in 1971 or 1972. Her comment was along the lines of “it’s just not been the same since Hebble stopped running it”!
She didn’t sound particularly old, so would have been pretty young when Hebble were actually running the route. But what made me smile was that, in their final years, didn’t Hebble have an atrocious reliability problem, meaning ageing second-hand vehicles were drafted in from all over the place? Or am I confusing them with another company?

Dave Towers


17/05/11 – 11:00

That makes me smile wryly Dave T – the travelling public do conjure up some astonishing theories in their minds. When I worked for the old family firm South Yorkshire Road Transport we were taken over in July 1994 by Caldaire Group (West Riding) and quite soon our familiar blue/white livery disappeared in favour of the various Corporate colours which followed. I clearly remember driving a full bus, green and cream “West Riding”,along the A19 out of Doncaster on the 411 to Pontefract and Leeds when an elderly Askern lady was loudly lecturing her fellow passengers on their error in expecting a reliable service from “this lot” – they were advised to follow her advice and wait for “one of them blue South Yorkshires as they are always on time and they’re better drivers too !!”

Chris Youhill


17/05/11 – 11:02

Hebble did run some elderly Titans from Yorkshire Traction but this was not the companies fault there was a long term weight restriction on a bridge in Halifax Like their fellow BET Group companies they also received some cast off from Sheffield when the JOC and C fleets were wound up in Hebbles case two relatively young AEC Regent Vs.
As a result of the need for Hebble to have some lighter buses some of their AEC Regent Vs were loaned to YTC not a name one associates with Southall products!

Chris Hough


17/05/11 – 11:05

You’re not wrong. Geoffrey Hilditch has made comments on the state of Hebble vehicles at takeover. On the usage of old terms for services I used to call the Oldham-Huddersfield service the “Hanson” well into PTE days. Possibly as in Hanson days it didn’t have a route number.
Another expression which I used for a long time without knowing why was “Tilleys”, used for North Western buses in the area. It’s only when I took a preserved North Western bus to a local event in 1980 and a long-standing family friend used the term that the penny suddenly dropped. It was short for Tilling-Stevens, a name emblazoned on the front of their early buses although the last left the area not long after the war!

David Beilby


29/05/11 – 07:02

The Hebble fleet was dire in the 1960’s they had a lot of 36′ Reliances which being B and C plates were scrapped at the take over due to total condition, hushed up were various problems like passengers falling through trap doors, wheels falling off and a host of mechanical defects, it was a total embarrassment to the NBC and in the end the Regional Director (Ian Patey) was responsible for putting it into the JOC because they already had the BR shareholding, also Walnut Street depot had a lot of restrictions to height which did not help.

Christopher


31/05/11 – 11:37

A few quick questions please:-
a) Was the Hebble fleet garaged solely in the Walnut Street depot?
b) What was the fleet strength in the company’s final years?
c) What bus (not coach) routes were operated?
d) Is the garage still in use, or has it been demolished?

Dave Towers


31/05/11 – 18:56

Hebble operated at least 3 routes out of Bradford.
No 19. Chester St. to Bingley, via Wilsden and Harden.
Bradford to Halifax (from Chester St.)
Bingley-Cottingley-Duckworth Lane (Bradford).
In the post war years, to about 1956, 19 was operated by the Regal 0662 Weymann single deckers, whilst the Duckworth Lane routes were mainly using the Roe batch.
The Halifax routes utilised mainly the Regent III Roe buses which were, I believe, 0961, whereas the 1953 Willowbrook Regents were of the 7.7 litre variety according to my fleet list.
As a boy, I also remember Hebble running a Bradford to Hipperholm service, which was later, I think, incorporated into the Halifax routes, which went via either Queensbury, or Shelf.

John Whitaker


01/06/11 – 07:57

Thanks John, but they also operated into Leeds, didn’t they? I’m fairly certain they did a Leeds-Burnley and maybe a Leeds-Rochdale. I remember a trip on a Regent around about 1970 or 1971 but I only went as far as Odsal. Maybe by this time the route had been shortened to Halifax.

Dave Towers


01/06/11 – 09:22

I agree about the 806 – 809 batch Chris, but when the “new” excitement wore off, and in quiet contemplation (!) I do not think the S series 4 bay design had quite the same balance as the classic final version of the first post war 5 bay style.
I greeted the first DXs with absolute rapture, but looking back, I do not personally hold them in quite the same esteem as the HWW series. Something to do with my age perhaps!

John Whitaker


01/06/11 – 09:25

The routes from Leeds to Rochdale and Burnley lasted until the advent of Calderdale JOC I once caught a Halifax Weymann bodied Leopard all the way from Rochdale to Bramley in Leeds. The draught through the rubber edges of the door over the tops lives with me still! I think the routes were cut back after the advent of the PTE in 1974. The Leeds Halifax service now acts as a local between Farsley and Leeds leaving the main road at Pudsey to negotiate a housing estate and the constant traffic of Kirkstall Road. After 2 years of this First have introduced an express peak hour service the X8 which follows the old route The choice of the number 8 is appropriate as this was the old Hebble service number!

Chris Hough


01/06/11 – 10:22

Quite right Dave, routes 15 and 28 ran from King Street Leeds, stand adjacent to the Samuel Ledgard routes to Horsforth and Ilkley (via Guiseley), to Burnley and Rochdale. The six vehicle scene in King Street at 5.20 pm on weekdays was an absolute joy to behold. The 5.20 pm Hebble departure with duplicate, plus no less than four SL vehicles for the 5.30pm commuter rush – one Rawdon duplicate, one Guiseley duplicate, one Ilkley duplicate, and the Ilkley service bus last to depart. All would be full for part or most of their journeys !!

Chris Youhill


13/03/12 – 06:25

My school was in Halifax near Boothtown and I lived in Northowram. Hebble were ALWAYS first choice, they got you home five minutes faster than Halifax Corp!. Only in the later years did the maintenance get cut back, I was in the bus station when a Regent V arrived to be greeted by an engineering inspector. He had a look around and took it out of service. The queue had to wait for another to come from Walnut St! (MCW bodywork coming adrift) They also had a Bradford garage too. At least in the 60’s, there were as good as any other fleet. I think when BET decided to sell out, they just cut the budget to emergency work only. The weight restriction on North Bridge did not effect buses, they narrowed the road to get the traffic into the centre, that’s all.

John (tee)


15/03/12 – 09:30

The Bradford garage was at Park Lane and was shared with Yorkshire Woollen who had a few vehicles allocated. The latter did not have a permanent allocation as vehicles were changed over at Cleckheaton and Dewsbury for maintenance. After the demise of Hebble the garage was sold to Wallace Arnold. The last time I passed it had been demolished.

Philip Carlton


05/05/12 – 16:58

The comments about the reliability of Hebble in its last years is very true. Indeed, there used to be comments that the tow truck did more miles than the rest of the fleet!!! I remember, when my Dad was the village bobby at Northowram, how I used to sit on the police Station wall (opposite what was the Stocks Arms) watching the Hebbles line up at the side of the road. In the meantime the Corpy buses kept coming. Yes the end was sad, because the crews were more friendly, but, the outfit had by say 1969 seen better days. The route shown, was Wainstalls to Causeway Foot, which I could be wrong, but I think replaced the Steep Lane to Causeway Foot service, and incidentally was one of the last crew routes at Halifax, in, I think, early 1986.

Chris Ratcliffe


06/05/12 – 17:04

As Chris implies, Hebble was a complete shambles in its last years, and it must have been an absolute embarrassment to its employees. I recall walking home from college one dinnertime, probably in the Summer of 1969, and passing a broken down Hebble Reliance at the lower end of New Bank. Just after this their tow-wagon – a cut down 1946 Weymann-bodied Regal JX 9106 – rumbled up behind it, apparently to render assistance. I continued up the hill and saw as I approached Godley Bridge a Regent V apparently also deceased at the side of the road – the crew standing resignedly leaning against the side, having a smoke. “Not broken down, surely ?” I asked, to which the driver replied with a sigh “Aye lad, what’s new ?”. Just then the Regal appeared, having abandoned the Reliance for the time being. The despairing mechanic asked a couple of questions of the driver and had a quick look underneath, then said they’d just have to wait as they had to sort out a coach which had broken down on service at Buttershaw, and that it took priority as it was wanted for a Private Hire later on. Then off they went ! A former driver colleague of mine at Halifax who had been a mechanic at Hebble told me that virtually every day was like that – and often worse !

John Stringer


07/05/12 – 09:17

During my time at Yelloway in the early 1970s we often got Hebble drivers bringing their bus into our garage(which was very close to the Hebble terminus of their service 28 into Rochdale from Leeds and Halifax)for our mechanics to look at. I recall on one occasion we gave the driver one of our YDK registered Harrington Cavaliers as a replacement, which at the time were around 10 years old – the driver was ecstatic! There was a joke amongst our mechanics that the ‘temporary’ repair they had made some time earlier was still holding out many weeks later when the same bus re-visited perhaps with another yet different problem!

David Slater


07/05/12 – 09:18

John,
And I thought Hanson’s were bad!

Eric Bawden


07/05/12 – 09:19

I hate to “turn the knife in the wound” so to speak and I hope I’m wrong here, but I do seem to remember a scandal of some kind where a Regent V overturned possibly descending to North Bridge. This was alleged, and I stress alleged, to have been caused by the front brakes being adjusted “off” instead of being “taken up” as the direction of adjustment differed from that on the Mark 3 Regents. I really hope that I’ve remembered this wrongly, or that it was a malicious rumour started by someone with a grudge. Can anyone remember the incident and, if so, comment on it please ??

Chris Youhill


07/05/12 – 19:17

The accident Chris Y. refers to was way back in 1958 when almost new 30ft Regent V 304 (JCP 672) ran away at the bottom of New Bank and turned over on the end of North Bridge. I remember my father coming home from work and telling me about seeing it on its side, and I still have the newspaper cutting. It was sent back to Metro-Cammell who rebuilt it, and on its return it was renumbered 306. Hence JCP 672 and 673 were ever after numbered 306 and 305 – apparently the wrong way round.
This was however an unfortunate event in what were much better days for Hebble. The real decline only came in the late 1960’s.

Mr Anon


08/05/12 – 07:32

Typically an absolute fortune was spent doing up the Walnut Street garage only for it to close shortly afterwards.

Philip Carlton


08/05/12 – 07:34

My dad still to this day recalls the conversation he had with the driver when he left the phone box by our yard at Northowram Police Station, when the driver rang the bus in, and was told to bring it to town. My dad telling the story to me when I entered the driving school at Halifax in December 1979, and telling me , it is your licence, don’t land up in a similar position. It stuck, and there was many a time when I left Halifax buses at Leeds and Bradford, and came back with one of theirs.

Chris Ratcliffe


08/05/12 – 12:05

That, Philip, reminds me of Air Ministry workings – as soon as an RAF station had a fortune spent on it, we knew it was doomed and we’d have to move on a few months ahead!

Chris Hebbron


09/05/12 – 07:59

Railway stations too in the run-up to Beeching. It was as though there had to be some extraordinary deadweight expense thrown in to sink any defence of its financial viability.

Stephen Ford


09/05/12 – 09:34

In response to Paul Haywood in the first comment, Causi Fooit is probably one area of Halifax that has hardly changed since the first trams in September 1900. At the time, the reservoir at Ogden Water, approx quarter of a mile from the terminus, was a tourist attraction at the turn of the 20th century, and the service in the summer months certainly, by all accounts more than earned its keep. However, the winter months must have counterbalanced that, as nobody in their right mind would go there in winter, just to walk round a reservoir, would they? The nearest mill to the area would probably have been Bradshaw Mill, about half a mile from the Bradshaw short working terminus at Pavement Lane, which in turn is about a miles worth of green fields to Causi Fooit even today. There was also a small quarry at Ratten Clough, just after what was the Peat Pitts Inn, which the corporation built a line into for the granite setts for the roads. The lines were there into the 80’s, when what was to become Transperience at Bradford dug them up for posterity. However, a scrapman saw the rails, and they disappeared!!!Interestingly there was a none corpy route that passed through Causi Fooit for many years, but it was not operated by Hebble. Yorkshire Woollen District were the culprits with an Ossett to Keighley service.

Chris Ratcliffe


12/05/12 – 17:19

Hebble too ran through Causeway Foot – their hourly service 2 (which I think was also the service number of the Yorkshire Ossett-Keighley service) shared the road with the Yorkshire service between Halifax and Cullingworth, where it diverted to run to Bingley. Their Hebble terminus in Bingley – also served by 18 (Duckworth Lane) and 19 (Bradford via Wilsden) – was described as “Central Area”, in reality a rubble-strewn wasteland later occupied (I think) by the HQ of the now-defunct Bradford & Bingley Building Society. Service 2 required 3 omo single-deckers and was operated jointly by Halifax and Bradford depots (so there must have been some dead-running from the latter, unless the service was interworked with 18/19). Certainly in latter years between the peaks the service only operated between Bingley and Cullingworth, where connections were made with the Yorkshire service (which also ran hourly). On the formation of Calderdale JOC the Hebble service and the Halifax-Keighley section of the Yorkshire service
became Calderdale services 1 and 2 respectively, each running hourly and co-ordinated over the Halifax-Cullingworth section. The Bingley service didn’t last long and was (within a year I think) abandoned, Calderdale then running Halifax-Keighley on an hourly basis. On Sunday mornings, when the Keighley/Bingley services didn’t run the Corporation service 25 (by then, Wainstalls-Halifax-Causeway Foot) was extended beyond the Borough boundary to Denholme (the next major settlement between Halifax and Cullingworth). This state of affairs continued until late PTE years, when the 25 became a peak-only operation. On deregulation the Halifax-Keighley service was linked with the Huddersfield-Halifax service as part of a combined Huddersfield-Halifax-Illingworth (just off the route to Causeway Foot, [30 min]))/Keighley (60 min)/Thornton-Bradford (60 min – branching off the Keighley service at Denholme Gate, between Causeway Foot and Denholme). Subsequent changes saw the abandonment of the Halifax-Thornton-Bradford service (a route I think Bradford Corporation considered introducing in the late 60s/early 70s) and the uncoupling of the Halifax-Huddersfield and Halifax-Illingworth sections. Now the Halifax-Keighley service has, I think, gone – although the Halifax-Bingley service came back a few years ago as a twice-a-day operation, presumably linked to a school contact (such were the timings).
Although I was young – 6 when they disappeared – I remember the Hebble well, living in Queensbury on the route of service 17 (Halifax-Queensbury-Bradford) and having a great aunt who lived at . . . Causeway Foot. To this day I remember suddenly realising the Hebble were no more, and – outside Squires bakery in Brighouse (also long gone) asking my mother “where are the Hebble buses” and her reply “Halifax have taken over” . . . for the first time a bit of me died.
For anybody who is interested in the latter-day operations of Hebble, Frank Woodworth (then GM) wrote an article for the Omnibus Society “A little of everything”. This compliments Norman Dean’s (a much earlier GM) Omnibus Society pamphlet “The Origins of Hebble”. I’ve got both, and would be happy to copy and send to anybody who wants to know more about this, in my opinion, fascinating operator.
If I can drift off-topic for a bit, why did NBC give up on Hebble (intractable maintenance issues?), dismember North Western (I’ve read it was the complexities of its operations with the SELNEC constituents that made an NBC-PTE deal unachievable), and flog-off BMMOs most profitable parts (I’ve read that it was a desperate need to re-finance the company – but why?) – when no such deals were done with Northern/United and Tyneside PTE, West Yorkshire/Yorkshire/West Riding/Yorkshire Traction and West Yorkshire PTE, and Yorkshire Traction/East Midland and South Yorkshire PTE?

Philip Rushworth


13/05/12 – 08:29

Philip, it was the differing policies of the several PTEs. SELNEC and WMPTE insisted on full control and ownership of services within their area. WYPTE and Tyneside had a sort of franchise where, in effect, NBC were a contractor for the PTE either running in PTE colours (Tyneside) or with PTE logo (WYPTE). SYPTE ran a similar system but since there was very little overlap of operations even within the “county”, NBC buses simply had SYPTE signs in their windows.

David Oldfield


13/05/12 – 08:30

Oops! To correct my previous post, when Calderdale JOC took over the Halifax-Keighley/Bingley rights each route ran TWO-hourly – providing a combined sixty-minute service over the common Halifax-Cullingworth section.

Philip Rushworth


13/05/12 – 08:31

Hi Philip
The Halifax Keighley service is still in existence Now numbered 502 it mainly consists of a single early morning journey from Halifax to Cullingworth and back There is no Saturday service but a roughly two hourly service on Sundays from 11 until 5

Chris Hough


13/05/12 – 08:32

What an interesting article by Mr Rushworth. I have been an enthusiast all my life and have always had a special interest in Y.W.D and Hebble as two generations and my self have worked for them.

Philip Carlton


13/05/12 – 18:38

A fascinating topic indeed and some really interesting and possibly forgotten aspects of PTE policies. In West Yorkshire there was much Company opposition to the PTE’s requirement that all NBC buses should be in “buttermilk and emerald.” I seem to recall that West Yorkshire Road Car Co held out for a long time before “doing as they were told” – in fact one Bristol VR was “in custody” at Harrogate Works for many months before being the first to be allowed out in “spring hues.”

Chris Youhill


13/05/12 – 18:39

West Yorkshire PTE also insisted that NBC operators buses carried PTE verona green and cream West Riding and YWD quickly repainted the fleet but West Yorkshire were much slower since repainting their buses limited their use to the PTE area and they had many services outside the boundary which needed red buses West Yorkshire PTE also insisted that NBC operators buses carried PTE verona green and cream West Riding and YWD quickly repainted the fleet but West Yorkshire were much slower since repainting their buses limited their use to the PTE area and they had many services outside the boundary which needed red buses.

Chris Hough


14/05/12 – 07:35

Your recollections about the PTE-liveried VR being held “in custody” are correct Chris. From what I remember, West Yorkshire ‘greened’ it, and the union ‘blacked’ it, as they felt that this move could be the start of an eventual takeover of large parts of WYRCC by the PTE. After much reassurance that this would not be the case, the VR later re-entered service in its new colours. West Yorkshire’s GM, Brian Horner, did his utmost to limit the number of company vehicles repainted verona green and buttermilk within the fleet, to the minimum required however. It was felt that because the company had an extensive network outside the PTE area, it would have been impractical (and inefficient) in having to repaint buses on transfer from depots within the PTE area to those outside it, and vice versa. The policy did somehow evoke memories of West Riding’s ‘red’ and ‘green’ fleets in times gone by, and I must admit to thinking that the VRTs actually looked quite attractive in the PTE livery (Shhh!).

Brendan Smith


14/05/12 – 07:37

I remember the first Yorkshire and West Yorkshire buses appearing in poppy red, and the arrival of Leyland-Nationals – it all seemed really thrusting and exciting to somebody so young. Then, some years later, when I was travelling from Queensbury to Hipperholme Grammar School by Yorkshire bus I used to beg for a BET-syle Leopard to be rostered, and longed for the days of individual liveries: once, and this must have been in the “first form” (Year 7 now – I’m a teacher and to me its still “first form”), an Albion Lowlander turned up on the school service – I took what I knew would be probably my only opportunity to ride a Lowlander and went past school into Brighouse, with the girls for the Girls Grammar School, where the service terminated, before changing and returning back to Hipperholme, and concocting the sort of ludicrously-contrived excuse for lateness that as a teacher I’ve now learned to identify as xxxxxx! Then when the poppy red of Yorkshire/West Riding/Yorkshire Traction started to be replaced by the insipid verona green/cream of the PTE I started, of course, to crave for poppy red variety: I remember West Yorkshire applied the PTE-style “MetroBus/[Company Name]/From here to there in West Yorkshire” fleetnames but on poppy red – good on them for showing some resistance.
To pick up on David’s comment about PTE policies – PTEs had no compulsory powers of purchase . . . so why did NBC (which was a much larger organisation overall) capitulate to WMPTE and SELNEC? My wife – who is an economics lecturer (OK, we might – in the present climate – have opinions on the credibility of economists) is adamant that raising finance by selling assets is something that should never be done.
As far as the dismemberment of Hebble is concerned, Geoffrey Hilditch – in vol.2 of his memoirs (Steel Wheels and Rubber Tyres) – has recorded that there was some ill-feeling within NBC about the way in which Hebble had been seen to be handed over to “Halifax”, and as a conciliatory gesture Calderdale JOC then handed a one-bus working on the Bradford-Hipperhome-Brighouse service (ex-Hebble 26/26A Bradford-Hipperholme – extended to Brighouse on “mergeover”) to WYRCC, well outside the WYRCC operating area. This seems somewhat ironic since WYRCC had previously inherited Hebble’s share of 64 Bradford-Huddersfield, which – also being well-outside its operating-area it repeatedly tried to pass on to Bradford City Transport (joint operator) in exchange for latter’s operating rights between Saltaire and Crossflats/Eldwick (an area of repeated conflict between BCT and WYRCC).

Philip Rushworth


14/05/12 – 07:38

If you thought that Keighley to Ossett was an unlikely pair of destinations there was another, not so far mentioned, operated by West Riding and co-ordinated with the “2”’s – numbered I recall “3” from Wakefield to Cullingworth !

Gordon Green


14/05/12 – 09:26

I agree entirely with Brendan on the subject of liveries per se, disregarding the rights and wrongs of mergers, takeovers, and “join our flock whether you like it or not” activities. In my opinion Nationals, VRs and Olympians looked very acceptable in original PTE green and cream, once again delightful in “Tilling” red and cream, and absolutely superb and fresh in Yorkshire Rider colours – I was always an ardent admirer of the latter, particularly in view of the quite indecent haste in which it had to be devised for October 26th 1986 : even weeks before that date it was by no means certain in any stable degree whether Metro (WYPTA/PTE) would be a bus operator or simply a service administration organisation. As I was about to take welcome redundancy from a very taxing supervisory job on “D” Day, thereby escaping the battlefield shambles that was to follow, I well remember the uncertainty and stress in all departments. One shining example of the tomfoolery was the conversion of two of Leeds’ very busiest and frequent double decker routes to minibus operation on ridiculously high frequencies and staff wages. If I remember rightly also, due to the hasty birth of the scheme, many of the necessary huge numbers of new Transits and Sherpas were not delivered in time. The scenes that followed on services 6 (Halton Moor to City – formerly Rodley) and 42 (Harehills to Old Farnley) were incredible and would have put Reg Varney, Blakey and the rest of the “On the buses” folks out of business. Sorry to seemingly digress, but its all part of the “out with the old and in with the unwise new” discussion after all.

Chris Youhill


15/05/12 – 07:43

With regard to the comments about PTE policies, the PTEs were able to insist on full control of operators within their areas, but not on ownership – at least not in the early days. However, in the case of North Western, operating as an agent for SELNEC would have meant losing control of most of their operation, with the consequent inability to continue to meet objectives set by the NBC. The sale took place because no satisfactory formula could be found for the two organisations to work together. (Information from A E Jones’s book on North Western in the Glory Days series.)

Peter Williamson


18/05/12 – 07:43

Peter, thank you for clarifying why North Western Road Car was sadly sold to SELNEC by NBC. I have always wondered why this was allowed to happen to such a respected and well-loved Company. It didn’t seem to make sense, but now at last I know. Although co-ordination of public transport was the order of the day, NBC and the ‘corporation’ fleets had different remits regarding services. From the outset NBC was charged with making a profit – taking one year with the next – which it did successfully for most of its existence (making a loss in only five financial years). If any of the municipal operators or PTEs made a loss, they were allowed to subsidise the loss from the rates. NBC also paid Corporation Tax, which the municipalities and PTEs did not, which seemed a little unfair to say the least. Leaving controversial corporate liveries aside, it could be argued that National Bus actually made quite a good fist of running things, considering some of the ‘events’ it had to contend with in its formative years. For example, the large fleet of time-expired buses it inherited from London Transport on the formation of London Country Bus Services. London Country also inherited a large operating area with, in effect, a large ‘hole’ in the middle, and was left without a central repair works, with which to overhaul its fleet. NBC turned its fortunes around eventually, investing heavily in new vehicles, but then had to contend with Midland Red losing its operating heart to West Midlands PTE, which again left another of its larger companies with a ‘hole’ in its operating territory. (At least it retained its renowned central repair works, although ironically this was deep in the heart of ‘enemy’ territory). Coupled with the loss of North Western, it was quite a turbulent time for National Bus, whose senior management must have thought that the PTEs had it cushy!

Brendan Smith


21/05/12 – 09:10

Here is a list of Hebble workings from the mid-1960s – at which time 106 drivers, 61 conductors, and 108 inspectors/clerks/mechanics were employed – (provided by Frank Woodworth, GM), in each case the order is number/route/frequency/depot (Halifax or Bradford)/allocation (brackets = allocation over main):
2 Halifax-Denholme-Keighley, Hourly, H/B, 3 omoSD
7 Halifax-Odsal-Bradford, 20/30 min, H, 3 DD (1 SD)
11 Mountain-Harecroft, Two-hourly, B, 2 omoSD
15 Leeds-Halifax-Burnley, Hourly, H, 3 omoSD / (3 SD) / 2 DD*
17 Halifax-Queensbury-Bradford, 20/30 min, H, 4 DD
18 Duckworth Lane-Bingley, 30/60 min, H/B, 2 omoSD (1 DD)
19 Bradford-Bingley, 20/30 min, B, 4 DD (1 omoSD)
25 Bradford-Buttershaw Estate, 30 min, B, 1 omoSD
26**** Bradford-Lumbrook-Hipperholme, Hourly, B, 1 omoSD
26A**** Bradford-Coley-Hipperholme, Hourly, H, 2 omoSD
28**** Leeds-Halifax-Rochdale, Hourly, H, 5 SD (2 DD)
29 Halifax-Wibsey-Bradford, Sat only, H/B, 2 DD
39 Scholes-Whitcliffe-Cleckheaton, Hourly, H, 1 omoSD**
40 Halifax-Norwood Green-Scholes-Cleckheaton, Hourly, H, 1 omoSD***
64 Bradford-Brighouse-Huddersfield, 15min, B, 4DD***
*Part omo and DD/SD worked due to need to reverse at Hebden Bridge – Burnley-Hebden Bridge section omo.
**Interworked and joint with YWD, revenue/mileage-agreement.
***Joint with Bradford CT and Huddersfield JOC, each operator kept own takings and duplicated own journeys.
****Later certain journeys diverted via Belle Vue Estate in Shelf and adopted numbers 36, 36A, 38.
At this time Hebble operated 60 vehicles out of Halifax depot, and 22 vehicles out of Bradford depot (which also accommodated 15 YWD vehicles outstationed from its depots).
Of course, Hebble also also operated a small number of express services . . .
J1>, Yorkshire-Blackpool Pool, Year Round
X1, Todmorden-Halifax-Scarborough, Seasonal daily
X2, Todmorden-Halifax-Norwich-Great Yarmouth, Seasonal weekends only (ex. Walton & Helliwell, 1958, extension to Burnley refused)
X3, Bradford-Rochdale, Seasonal weekends only (authorised as link to Devonian services of Yelloway, through vehicles operated)
Which by 1968 had been expanded to;
X4, Todmorden-Halifax-Norfolk Coast-Great Yarmouth, Seasonal weekends only (X3 and X4 now joint with YWD on granting of pick-up points at Cleckheaton, Heckmondwike, and Dewsbury).
X6, Halifax-Woollen District-Lincolnshire Coast-Skegness, Seasonal weekends only (joint with YWD)
X7, Todmorden-Yeadon Airport, Seasonal weekends only.
X28, Halifax-Llandudno, Seasonal weekend-only thorough journey of 28 Halifax-Rochdale jointly with Creams (Lancashire) Ltd
X91 Halifax-Odsal-Leeds-Whitby, July Saturdays only (joint with UAS/WYRCC0.
But the X3 had disappeared! What had happened to X3? Well, by 1968 the Yorkshire-South West “South West Clipper” pool had been established, and Hebble had relinquished its through-workings with Yelloway to become a major participant.
And finally! Between 1955-58 Hebble operated a Clayton-Yews Green circular service following withdrawal of BR services over the Queensbury lines (Queensbury station was some distance below the village and more accessible from the tiny hamlet of Yews Green [which was otherwise devoid of public transport]) – like most rail-replacement services, it didn’t last long. At some point a variation of service 7, Halifax-Shelf-Low Moor BRS, was operated – a special service to a BRS depot, how quaint! I don’t have details of service numbers for Clayton-Yews green or Halifax-Low Moor BRS, but if anybody could oblige I’d be grateful . . .

Philip Rushworth


21/05/12 – 11:21

The service from Clayton to Yews Green used route number 10. I have a number of old Hebble timetables and faretables and when I can unearth them I will check to see if the BRS Depot route had a number. Don’t hold your breath though !

John Stringer


21/05/12 – 15:15

According to the 1970 YWD and Hebble timetable, and the July 68 Yorkshire central timetable the Low Moor service was the 9. However, you didn’t plan a day out on it, because it has the footnote- ‘This service is liable to suspension when not required by British Road Service employees’!!!!!! It also looks like it was a one journey per day service. I do wonder whether it stayed in the garage more than it operated, I don’t recall it passing me on the police station wall at Northowram. I remember the 7, 15, 28 and the piece de resistance, 29 Wibsey Flier, which does make me wonder.

Chris Ratcliffe


22/05/12 – 07:57

How interesting Mr Rushworths list of Hebble services was. I believe one was missed out. Service 38 was Cleckheaton to Windy Bank Estate interworked with service 39 and joint with Y.W.D.

Philip Carlton


22/05/12 – 10:15

Re my earlier comment re the West Riding Cullingworth – Wakefield service I am beginning to think that this might be my memory playing tricks as nobody has picked up on it to confirm. Did it exist ?
Also re Philip Rushworth’s superb list did Hebble 2 eventually divert to Keighley or is this intended to read Bingley

Gordon Green


22/05/12 – 14:38

You’re right, Gordon. There certainly was a Wakefield to Cullingworth service number 3 operated by West Riding. It took an incredible route from Wakefield via Ossett, Dewsbury, Ravensthorpe, Mirfield, Brighouse, Hipperholme, Queensbury, Denholme and Cullingworth. It cut deep into YWD and Hebble territory but must have been a very useful orbital feeder service from the main “trunk” routes to and from Huddersfield, Halifax, Bradford and Keighley.

Paul Haywood


22/05/12 – 14:40

It certainly did exist. In the 1968 Central Yorkshire timetable YWD operated the 2, Ossett to Keighley But also Hebble operated a Halifax to Bingley service, so I can see where I got confused with my earlier comment. Two services with the same number run by two companies with a very similar shade of red confusing to a 10/11 year old boy. The 3 ran from Cullingworth to Wakefield via Queensbury, Hipperholme, Mirfield, Ravensthorpe, Ossett. However, in the 1970 Hebble and Yorkshire timetable, the 2 table is labelled as joint between Hebble and YWD, and it looks like the 2 is the Keighley service operating every 2 hours with the odd short extra here and there, and the Bingley service has become the 2A on the other 2 hours The 3 by then has no operator listed, so I am presuming it was still YWD, and the route has been cut back to Denholme School Street. Later still of course, it was cut back to Queensbury Raggalds Inn. Hope that helps you.

Chris Ratcliffe


There’s a lovely shot of a West Riding Reliance on the Cullingworth service at //www.sct61.org.uk/wr814

David Beilby


23/05/12 – 09:19

Services 2 and 3 were two of YWD’s earliest motor bus routes. Both were originally operated by YWD only, commencing at Dewsbury, the 2 being Dewsbury to Keighley via Brighouse, Elland Bridge, Halifax, Denholme and Cullingworth, the 3 being Dewsbury to Haworth following the same route to Brighouse, then as described by Paul to Cullingworth then on to Haworth. Then in the late 1930’s an arrangement was made with West Riding Automobile whereby the 2 was extended from Dewsbury to Ossett, and the 3 from Dewsbury to Wakefield – whereupon WRAC began to operate a bus on the service. At the same time the 3 was cut back at its outer end to Cullingworth, the section from there to Haworth passing to West Yorkshire Road Car who incorporated it into their existing services.
As a very young child I can remember seeing West Riding’s green halfcab Leyland Tigers occasionally passing through Hipperholme or Brighouse, but for several years the regular issue were AEC Reliance/Roe’s of the JHL-registered batch, then still in cream with green tops. YWD used Brush-bodied PS1’s or the lengthened PS2/Willowbrooks and Brush-bodied Royal Tigers, before the BET-style Reliances of the DHD batch took over.
The route had to be single decked because of a low bridge in St. Giles Road, Lightcliffe – a road now no longer served by buses.

John Stringer


23/05/12 – 17:02

Thanks to Paul Haywood, Chris Ratcliffe, David Bielby & John Stringer for setting my mind at rest and confirming that my memory still does work (sometimes!) and for providing an interesting history of these various routes.
When I first made my comment I nearly said that I thought that the two routes diverged between Denholme and Brighouse but I wasn’t sure.
I have recently been reading some archived minutes of the old Haworth UDC who in those days had to licence bus operation in their area and who had from time to time deal with complaints about both the YWD and indeed West Yorkshire buses – if I can find them I will post them on this thread.

Gordon Green


24/05/12 – 07:58

Now look what you’ve started, Gordon! Intrigued by the prospect of YWD serving Haworth, something in the back of my mind kept nagging me that I remembered seeing a photo of an old YWD Dennis reportedly pulling up out of Cross Roads (close to Haworth). After much trawling, I found it in on page 101 of “Roads & Rails of West Yorkshire 1890 – 1950” by AE Jones. The photo, taken in 1927, says it is “tackling Manywells Heights between Cross Roads and Denholme, on the arduous route from Keighley”. Not recognising the exact location, a map check tells me that it is in fact pulling out of Cullingworth towards Denholme. Also, and this is the intriguing part, the destination shows Halifax. Was this a short-working of the original route 2 to/from Dewsbury to which John refers? What a route that must have been in those early bus days.

Paul Haywood


24/05/12 – 08:00

In response to Philip’s post of 22/5: he is right on both counts – but “2” is imprinted as Halifax-Keighley, and 38 had disappeared before the time of my list (and I forget to add it at the end with the “lost” 9 and 10 [and thanks for that detail]). But thanks for pointing that omission out. I think the 38 was incorporated in/became a YWD route extended through to Heckmondwike (and possibly beyond) – I imagine the Hebble crews would have been pleased, as having only to interwork 39/40 instead of 38/39/40 would have given them additional standing time at Cleckheaton Bus Station (although by the time I was familiar with it it wasn’t a place one wanted to linger! – though the number of bricked-up doorways and windows suggested that it had been a place of greater activity/importance in days gone by).
After Hebble was dismembered its share of 40 (Halifax-Cleckheaton) passed to Calderdale JOC. The standing time at Cleckheaton was transferred to the Halifax end and service 39 became a YWD responsibility. To utilise standing time at the Halifax end the 40 was interworked with Halifax Corporation [sic] route 36 Halifax-Paddock Lane – so I assume that there must have been some financial dealings to compensate the JOC and YWD for operating a Corporation route.
The whole pattern of NBC services in the Leeds-Cleckheaton/Dewsbury-Halifax/Brighouse/Rastick corridor changed under a PTE restructuring on 6th January 1979. This led to the covering of 40 by the extension/diversion of other YWD routes, the replacement of 36 by by a new 36 which had no YWD involvement, and changes to the 278 (eh! what that? – well, its what the “3” had become . . . by then running Dewsbury-Mirfield-Brighouse-Elland-Rastrick [with no West Riding involvement, but a significant YTC input]) which brought it back to the truncated Brighouse-Queensbury section of the Brighouse-Cullingworth section it had forsaken when it took over the Brighouse-Elland/Elland Rasrick sections of a couple of linked YWD Leeds-Elland/Elland-Rastrick services. The Leeds-Brighouse service (?25) which resulted from that split then interworked with the Brighouse-Queensbury section of the old “3” as the “35”, later 547 under PTE numbering (the only 5-series YWD service, but so numbered because it ran entirely within Calderdale District and between Brighouse and Hipperholme it “more-or-less” paralled ex-CJOC services (5)48/(5)49). Does any of this make sense? Is anybody still reading?? Well, think of the public!
When I can think straight again I’ll try [sic] to piece together the linked stories of the YWD 2 Dewsbury-Halifax service(the Halifax-Keighley section having bome CJOC “2”) and YWD/WROC 3 Wakefield-Cullingworth services/successors post-1969.
Thanks, John, for explaining why YWD/WRAC “3” terminated at such an unlikely spot as Cullingworth – I’d always wondered why it didn’t run on to somewhere more significant (Bingley/Keighley/Haworth/Oxenhope), but I’d never linked this with YWD’s withdrawal from Cullingworth-Howarth.
And, of course it was Gordon and not Philip that pointed out my error re the destination of Hebble “2” – in my defence Ofsted have just visited my place of work, and I’m struggling to get back on track!

Philip Rushworth


24/05/12 – 08:01

The 2/3 service have always been single decked as is the present day 279 [Dewsbury-Halifax] service because of the railway bridge at Elland. This appears to be normal height but there is a nasty girder inside.I believe a driver once was driving the paddy bus and tried to take a short cut back to Heckmondwike depot.

Philip Carlton


24/05/12 – 08:03

I have just found my 1939 Hebble timetable, and I must amend my previous comments, as it shows YWD service 2 operating from Wakefield to Keighley.
Although Service 3 largely followed the A644 between Brighouse and Denholme Gate (where it rejoined Service 2), just before Hove Edge it turned right along Finkil Street, left along Upper Green Lane, and right along the winding Spout House Lane and St. Giles’ Road (round the back of the old Brooke’s Chemical Works) then just before the end of the road it had to make a tight 90 degree left turn under a low arched railway bridge near Lightcliffe Station, necessitating a wide swing on to the opposite side of the road to avoid hitting the arch. It then turned left opposite Lightcliffe Stray and followed the A649 to Hipperholme Crossroads, where it turned right and rejoined the A644.
By 1974 the service was reduced to operating Brighouse to Queensbury only as Service 35 (hourly) by YWD. In the PTE renumbering scheme around 1976 it became Service 547.
Later I seem to recall Yorkshire Traction taking it over (was it 278?) and running it from Dewsbury to Raggalds (an even more obscure place to have a terminus). It was interworked with their 262 Huddersfield to Dewsbury via Hopton route.
Back to Hebble though, and further route numbers used in 1939 were:
8: Halifax-Leeds via Dudley Hill (before being linked to the Rochdale or Burnley routes).
12: Bradford-Brighouse-Huddersfield Originally each of the joint operators used different numbers from their own series, and this was Hebble’s. Eventually they all agreed to use Bradford’s no. 64.
23: Bradford-Halifax-Blackpool
25: Halifax-Wyke via Norwood Green A route taken over from Calder Bus Service, Bailiff Bridge. Early postwar it was joined to YWD’s 40 Wyke to Cleckheaton service and took the YWD series number.
27: Todmorden-Halifax-Leeds-Scarborough
The routes operated at the time were: 2, 7, 8, 11 (then Mountain-Duckworth Lane), 12, 15, 17, 18, 19, 23, 25, 26 (no 26A via Coley then), 27, 28, 29.
The Blackpool and Scarborough services are not shown as having route numbers in the timetable, but they are shown as 23 & 27 on the route map in the back.
I was always mystified by the seemingly haphazard numbering system Hebble used for its routes, with many missing numbers, but these appear to represent the routes that Hebble originally operated in the 1920’s but which passed to Halifax Joint Committee in 1929. What does not quite add up though is that Hebble did not use route numbers until the 1930’s, so why leave gaps for routes that they had not run for a number of years ? Either Norman Dean just had a great sense of history, having been responsible for setting up those routes in the first place, or maybe Hebble had used route numbers all along for internal purposes, but just had not seen the need to display them on the vehicles. Who knows ?
I have tried to make a list of all the start dates for the various services, then allocate chronological route numbers to them, and they almost fit – but not quite.
Anyway, where does Hebble’s Fleetline come into all this ???

John Stringer


24/05/12 – 10:37

Going even farther from the Hebble Fleetline, it seems clear that operators up and down the land “did their own thing” as regards route numbering. I wonder if some were being far-sighted, leaving gaps so that they could allocate numbers in sequence to existing routes when new variants were introduced. Derby Corporation (in the early 60s) had routes 2, 3, 4, 11, 14, 22, 24, 25, 26, 30, 31, 32, 33, 37, 39, 39A, 41, 42, 43, 46, 47, 48, 49, 49A, 50, 51, 51A, 53, 54, 55, 57, 59, 60, 66, 70, 74, 77, 88, 90, 91 – a total of 40 (but no route 1!) – and another quixotic touch was that originally all multiples of 11 were trolleybuses! Odd workings, school, works services etc. nearly always showed route 02. Midland General/Notts & Derby went for single letter and single digit number for their routes (A1 to A9, B1 to B9 etc). I have mentioned elsewhere that Trent’s jointly operated routes did not harmonise their route numbers, so for example Nottingham – Worksop – Doncaster was a Trent 64 or East Midland 36. (Surprisingly, in old days East Midland destination blinds actually showed both numbers.) And now bureaucracy thinks we are all so thick that we cannot be trusted to distinguish between a red 52 and a blue one. Every service has to be different, giving rise to daft astronomical numbers even for operators who only run a couple of routes.

Stephen Ford


24/05/12 – 10:38

John, what a complex history routes 2 and 3 had! I’ve just looked at a copy of an undated (but claiming to be 1940’s) YWD map which shows the 2 terminating at Dewsbury, and the 3 continuing to Wakefield.
Putting on my tram fan cap, and reverting to the early services, there can’t have been many bus services anywhere in the country which would have paralleled or crossed so many tram systems.
Lets imagine YWD route 3 in (say) 1930, starting at Keighley; early “trackless” (to Utley); Bradford trams (crossing at Queensbury); Halifax trams (crossing at Stone Chair and following Hipperholme to Brighouse); Huddersfield trams (meeting at Brighouse and nearly meeting at Cooper Bridge); YWD trams (Ravensthorpe to Dewsbury); Dewsbury & Ossett trams (from Dewsbury to Ossett) and finally meeting WR trams at Ossett. Six tramways and one early trolleybus route on one stage-carriage bus route. If the longer route 2 via Halifax was followed from Keighley to Wakefield, that would have missed the Bradford trams. Now those certainly would have been rides to remember!

Paul Haywood


24/05/12 – 10:39

As a long forgotten radio comedian used as his catch phrase – ” I only asked” !!

Gordon Green


25/05/12 – 07:32

John is right, the discussion has deviated – but what a richness of information has come to light! And how else could we share such knowledge? Back to the original post then. Why did Hebble buy just the one Northern Counties bodied Fleetline – for a fleet with with maintenance problems it could only have added to their difficulties, why not two or three? Was the decision influenced by Halifax’s purchasing policy at the time?? – did Hebble think that they might obtain spares from a neighbour??? Am I right in thinking that part of a batch of Alexander-bodied Fleetlines delivered to YWD was, when the fleets were under common management, originally destined for Hebble? (one of these did subsequently pass to Hebble, didn’t it? and into the Calderdale fleet [EFE did produce a model of this, but in the wrong height I think] . . . which must in turn have caused Calderdale problems in keeping body spares for a unique vehicle). Does anybody out there remember the interior of the Hebble Fleetline?: Halifax’s had a pale green melamine interior panel – what colour was Hebble’s?
Its all fascinating stuff.
To answer part (d) of Dave’s question, from almost a year ago – Walnut Street Depot is long gone, Walnut Street still exists, but the site of the Hebble depot is now occupied by a light industrial unit. And in response to Philip’s post of 8/5, the major improvement (in 1961) was the move of the stores unit which had divided the Walnut Street depot into separate “highbridge” and “lowbridge” sections and the raising of the roof of the lower half, such that the whole of the depot was capable of accommodating highbridge vehicles (prior to this highbridge Regent Vs had their grill-surrounds painted white to identify them as such).
And finally. To fill in a missing bit from my post of 12/5 and link with John’s post of 23/5, in the late 1960s the hourly Hebble 2 (Halifax-Bingley) and YWD 2 (Ossett-Halifax-Keighley) were integrated as 2/2A Ossett-Halfax-Keighley/Bingley each running 2-hourly – though Hebble never ran on the Keighley branch.
What a fascinating time this must have been for bus enthusiast – I’m about ten years too young to have experienced this era in all its glory, so this site is a haven!

Philip Rushworth


25/05/12 – 07:32

Service 278 was Dewsbury to The Ragalds Inn worked by Heckmondwike depot and also as stated 262 Dewsbury to Huddersfield. I once was on 278 and had the need to get some change at the Ragalds. I was given grief by the landlord who stated he was running a pub not a bank.

Philip Carlton


25/05/12 – 15:13

It always seemed strange to me that Hebble’s Fleetline was so similar to Halifax’s, the BET-style curved screen but flat upper deck front not being taken by any BET company as far as I am aware. This style was used by other municipalities such as Swindon and Chester, and by Western SMT.
Hebble operated increasingly under the wing of YWD, sometimes following their vehicle buying policy – such as Regent V’s and Ford coaches, yet shunning Leopards after an initial six in 1963 and reverting to Reliances. YWD had taken eleven Alexander-bodied Fleetlines the previous year, and was to take more – and also Atlanteans – the year after, but in 1966 they took no double deckers so Hebble could not have just tagged an extra bus onto their order. Also the YWD buses were of an intermediate height of around 14ft., and Hebble may have wanted the full 14ft. 6in. Northern Counties were suppliers of Fleetlines to the BET Group, but if the order was a bit of a last minute job it may just have been convenient to slip in an extra one to Halifax specification in front of their own order. Its chassis and body numbers were separate from Halifax’s though.
The Hebble bus arrived some while earlier than Halifax’s and at first was used on the Halifax-Bradford routes 7/17, but later one of YWD’s Alexander-bodied Fleetlines (BHD 222C) was transferred to Hebble in order that they could have two Fleetlines to operate on the 64 Bradford-Huddersfield service. This bus looked really great in Hebble’s livery.
Though both passed initially into YWD ownership at the winding up, they were soon passed on to Halifax, BJX 222C strangely going to the Corporation as 103, displacing their existing 103 to the J.O.C. as 293. DJX 351D went to the J.O.C. as 294, and it was interesting to see how similar yet different it looked in Halifax livery.
I drove both buses a lot during their time at Halifax/WYPTE. Both seemed to have a different braking system to our own Fleetlines, having a harder pedal and being much more difficult to stop – especially on steep downhill gradients of which there are one or two round here. We later acquired five ex-Leeds Fleetlines 101-105 LNW and these were the same. I believe these older ones had a Westinghouse rather than Clayton Dewandre system, but am not certain.
294 had numerous detail difference from our own, the most noticeable being the large single aperture destination and route number box, compared to Halifax rather fussy three-piece ones. The doors were of the 4-piece jack-knife type, against our owns’ 2-piece glider doors. This meant nearside visibility was slightly impaired, but at least they did not blow open in crosswinds, or generally flop about and let draughts in. It had a small glass panel, originally illuminated with the Hebble name, in the upper deck rear panel, where ours had route number indicators. The interior had a kind of reddish/salmon coloured Formica on the lower panels compared to Halifax’s pale green, and the seats were trimmed in reddish colours. I may be wrong, but I think the staircase was a different shape.
Like Chris R. I was not too keen on 294, but then I thoroughly disliked all the older Fleetlines. They were heavy, with vague steering, the front ends of the NCME bodies were weak, and the windscreens worked loose, and on a few occasions fell out into the road – or blew out from the inside when the crosswinds blew the doors open ! Their flywheels slipped, brakebands slipped, they fumed, overheated and were desperately hard riding at the front. Ugh !! However, setting aside its deficiencies, being a J.O.C. bus it was used a lot on the Halifax-Bradford 76/77 services and at least I could pretend to be working for Hebble.
103’s Alexander body seemed much better built and had no rattles. The lower build gave it far better roadholding with no rolling and swaying. The driver’s cab was a bit cramped, and you seemed to sit much closer to the offside. The cab ceiling was lower and it was easy to almost perforate the side of one’s head on the row of flick switches (for the interior lights) whose box jutted out at just the wrong place. I used to really like 103, which once WYPTE took over was no longer confined to A-Side routes and I always used to try to get it on Bradford.
All the NCME Fleetlines were structurally weak at the front, and the shrouded rear ends caused problems, and in WYPTE days all were rebuilt and strengthened, and had the rear shrouds removed – including the Hebble one. At the same time it gained the still non-standard destination box shown on the photo.
In 1971 – now under much closer control by YWD – Hebble had two Alexander-bodied Fleetlines and three Marshall-bodied Leopard PSU3B’s on order, but these were delivered to YWD as part of the JHD-J and KHD-K batches respectively.

John Stringer


26/05/12 – 06:23

In later life many of the Halifax Fleetlines were fitted with Leeds style front destination boxes with the three track number blind below a final destination

Chris Hough


26/05/12 – 06:26

LHL 162F_lr

Whilst on the subject (by the way what was the subject ?) here is a scan from a slide I took on 30th May 1968 of West Riding Roe-bodied Panther 162 (LHL 162F) on Service 3, returning from Cullingworth to Wakefield along Brighouse & Denholmegate Road between Queensbury and Stone Chair roundabout.

John Stringer


28/05/12 – 08:23

Just a few more scraps of Hebble route information for Philip Rushworth (everybody else must have given up the will to live by now !)
The 26A variation via Coley started in 6/39 – just after my 1939 timetable must have been published.
The Hebble 25 (Wyke) and YWD 40 were combined in 1952.
The 25 Buttershaw commenced in 1955.
64 was adopted by all operators for Bradford-Huddersfield in 6/55.
At the same time as the 10 (Clayton Circular) started (23/5/55) there was also a 9 (Wibsey-Cullingworth via Harecroft). Both ceased on 1/10/58.

John Stringer


29/01/14 – 06:16

I read that one outcome of the 1971 NBC mergers was the replacement of most of services 2 and 3 by a service from Wakefield to Halifax (79, now 278). This seems an obvious route now and strange that it didn’t exist until 1971, but I suppose the regulatory regime/area agreements must have been responsible.

Geoff Kerr


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


16/10/19 – 05:39

Returning to the topic of Hebble’s (lack of) reliability, I spent 1972 to 1974 at Mansfield District’s Sutton Road Depot.
NBC had set up a network of help points to which long distance coach drivers could turn, if required. MDT was responsible for an area of North Derbyshire & Nottinghamshire, which included a section of the M1. That could be interesting, given that our coaches seated 41 and our DPs seated 43!
We suspected Hebble drivers were either under instructions to seek a change-over as soon as they left Yorkshire or just sought the first opportunity to try for a better steed. On one memorable occasion, a south-bound Hebble driver pulled onto the M1 hard shoulder, concerned about a banging noise coming from a front wheel. MDT’s duty Running Shift Fitter duly attended, examined the vehicle, and pronounced it fit to continue. The driver set off and, as soon as he had got going in the inside lane, one of his front wheels detached. To say the attendant police officers were not amused is an understatement!!

Terry Walker

S H M D – Daimler Fleetline – ELG 40F – 40


Copyright Ian Wild

Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield
1968
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Northern Counties H41/27D

It’s August 1968 and a wet day in Glossop. One of SHMD Board’s recently delivered Walsall inspired short dual entrance Fleetlines is about to turn at the traffic lights outside the Norfolk Arms on a 127 to Stalybridge. North Western’s Glossop Depot is further up the road behind the Fleetline. These buses looked quite elegant in this livery but were totally unsuited to the SELNEC orange and white applied after the PTE takeover. Note the Rotavent ventilators in the side windows in lieu of sliding top lights, these were very much in vogue at the time.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

19/10/12 – 06:34

The introduction of the V shaped lower deck windscreen changed a plain and fairly dull NCME design into something much more attractive compared to the full sized vehicle of previous deliveries.
Why SHMD went to a smaller vehicle when every operator around it – even Stockport – had gone for something bigger is a question I can’t answer.
The narrow front door wasn’t particularly well liked but the vehicles performed reasonably well in service and I agree, the SELNEC scheme ruined the overall look.

Phil Blinkhorn

19/10/12 – 11:12

It’s an odd combination, with folding front door and a sliding one amidships. I have a bought view of a “C” suffix unit from this fleet, and it has only a cream stripe below the upper windows – above the indicator display. This looks far better.

Pete Davies

19/10/12 – 12:44

This was a strange vehicle design contrived by the innovative Edgeley Cox at Walsall where a large fleet of this type was operated. Was there some relationship between the managements at SHMD and Walsall to cause SHMD to choose these vehicles? I have always rationalised the concept in my mind on the basis that the narrow front door would be used as the entrance if the bus was working one man but could be kept closed and the centre door used conventionally for entry and exit if a conductor was on board just like a normal forward entrance front engined decker. Anybody know if this is right?
It is interesting that SHMD also had a history of innovation with the centre entrance Daimlers and of course the solitary double deck Atkinson in the mid-fifties. I understand these were inspired by a GM who had been at Blackpool, the spiritual home of centre entrance double deckers.
All this adds up to show what powers the municipal GM’s seemed to have in those glory days in including individual quirks into new vehicle specifications.

Philip Halstead

19/10/12 – 14:43

Philip is correct about the idea behind the door usage.
I’m not aware of any direct link between SHMD and Walsall and it would be interesting to see the minutes relating to the decision to purchase the vehicles. Presumably these are archived by Tameside MBC if any one has access.

Phil Blinkhorn

19/10/12 – 16:48

Were Walsall heavily into short Fleetlines? I remember seeing one/some with no front cantilever. I can’t remember how/where the driver sat!
I am often in these congested days puzzled as to why passenger numbers fall and bus sizes rise….

Joe

19/10/12 – 17:34

Walsall had 99 short Fleetlines. The first was only 25′ 7″ with no front overhang and an entrance behind the driver’s position pretty much the layout adopted by forward entrance front engined vehicles.
The next 29 were of the same layout but were 27′ 6″ with a front overhang. All of the above had wrap around windscreens on both decks.
The next 69 were 28′ 6″ long and were identical in looks to the SHMD vehicles. A comprehensive set of photos can be found by searching Walsall Fleetlines on Flickr. The last supposed Fleetline, actually the unique Daimler CRC6-36, went to to the other extreme with a 36′ length and two staircases.

Phil Blinkhorn

20/10/12 – 06:21

Thanks Phil for confirming my theory on the entrance/exit concept. I always feel that Edgeley Cox was to the bus world what Oliver Bullied was to railways. Both were great innovators and must have been strong personalities in that they got their employers to adopt large numbers of very unusual vehicles (locos in Bullied’s case) where a more standard solution would have almost certainly made more commercial sense. Sorry to digress into the world of flanged wheels on this site but the parallel has always struck me.

Philip Halstead

20/10/12 – 15:03

XDH 516G
XDH 516G_cab

Since the current posting has mentioned the Walsall short Fleetlines buses I thought you may like to see a couple of shots taken of the preserved Walsall vehicle, which is part of the Wythall collection it was used in 2010 to celebrate the end of trolleybuses in Walsall by following most of their former routes.

Ken Jones

20/11/12 – 05:28

I’m not “into” buses but came across the article on S.H.M.D. Fleetlines, the last six of which seemed to be used a lot on 2-man services like the 125 in the ’70s. Were these buses sent to Glossop after the P.T.E. absorbed the North-Western operation there, to replace the Renowns on conductor-operated routes, while the earlier,’conventional’, 56XX Fleetlines were cascaded out of the area to depots like Leigh-perhaps to replace A.E.C.s there in a similar role? Does anyone know if the ‘preserved’ S.H.M.D. Fleetline that was being kept at Mossley (I think) still exists?

John Hardman

20/11/12 – 11:33

On the last point, I can confirm that Fleetline number 28 is still there, along with PD2 number 5.

David Beilby

Maidstone & District – Daimler Fleetline – 76 YKT – DL76

Maidstone & District - Daimler Fleetline - 76 YKT - DL76

Maidstone & District
1964
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Northern Counties H44/35F

Maidstone and District was an early user of the Leyland Atlantean, taking both normal and lowheight examples classified DH and DL respectively, from 1959 until 1963, when the Daimler Fleetline became the favoured choice. CRG6LX No.DL76, 76 YKT was delivered in September 1964. The Northern Counties body is shown as H44/35F on BLOTW but elsewhere is stated to be H44/33F. DL76 is seen in Tonbridge on 1st October 1967 by which time the BET was concluding negotiations with a view to the sale of its bus industry interests to the government. The imperfect state of the front panel of DL 76 indicates some prescience of the future world awaiting it under NBC.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


17/01/18 – 06:31

H44/33F seems more likely. The first Atlanteans of my local BET operator, Tynemouth and District had H44/34F seating, reduced on the next batch of Atlanteans, and the first batch of Daimler Fleetlines to H44/33F. This was achieved by reducing the inward facing seat over the front wheel arch from 3 to 2. 34 seems to be the maximum that could easily be fitted in downstairs, 35, although not impossible, would imply very cramped seating.

John Gibson


17/01/18 – 06:33

Roger, I would interpret the bent front panel another way – all was not perfect before National Bus company was formed whatever some fondly like to remember! Had it not been formed I would not have arrived at M&D from Eastern Counties in January 1970! It is perhaps an appropriate location to remind us of Mr Macawber: Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery! Perhaps the main reason BET were willing to sell out!
At that time all the M&D Fleetline DD were 77 seaters as indeed were the highbridge Atlanteans (according to the 1971 fleet list). DL 76 > 6076 was still at Tonbridge in 1971 having been converted to “OMB” as was the current expression. Tonbridge had no bodybuilders and had a small running shift, so it was no doubt waiting to go to Tunbridge Wells for repair – the dreadful split level garage that was eventually closed only in 2017!
See also www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/m_&_d_selected_memories.php

Geoff Pullin


17/01/18 – 06:33

Northern Counties made one of the best jobs of bodying the first generation rear engined buses. The engine shrouds hide the rear end bustle and the proportions look just right. In this instance the whole show was helped by a tasteful traditional livery that fitted the lines of the body. Although a bit boxy I thought the flat screens were better than the later versions where BET style curved windscreens were grafted on and never seemed to blend in right.

Philip Halstead


17/01/18 – 06:34

Nice looking bus, the livery helps. We had similar at PMT new in 1963. They were specified with a seating material called Replin which quickly became very soiled and were later retrimmed in very basic red vinyde. I prefer the M&D single headlamps to the twin headlamps fitted to the PMT batch. I like the Southern Region green Station nameboard!

Ian Wild


18/01/18 – 05:28

Not being familiar with the M&D fleet, I’m assuming that the prefixes DL and DH referred to the overall height rather than the upper-deck seating layout, hence the Fleetlines were DL as they had the drop-centre rear axle.

Geoff Kerr


21/01/18 – 06:22

The old M & D garage at Tunbridge Wells was originally operated by Autocar and was in existence prior to 1933 when London Transport expected to acquire it(they had to make do with the little garage in Whitefield Road which became the operating base for Greenline 704)The garage faced directly onto the main road and also Woodbury Park Road.Why do todays operators consider covered accommodation unnecessary?

Patrick Armstrong


24/03/18 – 06:17

A quick reply to Geoff Kerr; DH referred to ‘Diesel Highbridge’ and DL to ‘Diesel Lowbridge in the Maidstone & District fleet. I was not a lover of the Fleetline because, as a driver, I found the engine tended to resonate through the bodywork into the cab and would give me a severe headache after an hour! That is if the engine was not perfectly tuned and many ‘bus engine was not perfect! I also once had the misfortune to have an engine cowl corner fall away from the body and dragged it along road by the cables when returning to Maidstone from West Malling.

Freddie Weston


24/03/18 – 18:13

The ‘D’ stood for ‘Double Deck’, not ‘Diesel’, Freddie. The corresponding Single Deck code was ‘S’.

Roger Cox


07/06/18 – 05:27

Having known many M&D staff over the years I can say that TW was not very good at looking after vehicles. Many were the PD2s and Reliances that managed to mysteriously get to Brighton so that Edward Street fitters could do a brake reline or other maintenance task that TW didn’t want to do. It was very noticeable in old M&D days that the vehicles from GR & H would be very well looked after, whereas TWs looked like bumper cars.

Bob Cornford


28/05/22 – 06:30

The seventh edition of Ian Allan’s British Bus Fleets, Area 1 South East which I believe was dated 1966 as the latest buses shown have delivery dates in 1965 shows the M&D Fleetlines in a class from DL57-DL111 built in two batches, 1963 and 1965. DL76 was one of the earlier batch. They were all Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX with Northern Counties LD77F (LD is defined as lowbridge with a central upper deck gangway) seating 77 with front entrance. There is a note that some were to be converted to CO77F (CO is defined as a convertible open top double deck bus). They operated my then local route 97 after the AEC Regent V DLs that I took to school although the route subsequently went to single deckers despite the Horsmonden rail bridge being removed.

Rob Weller


31/05/22 – 05:47

Firstly, the LD code mentioned by Rob Weller is no longer used. It was fine when there were just two heights of double decker – high (H) and low (L or LD depending on layout). But then operators started specifying intermediate heights, and there was no clear dividing line between H and LD. So LD was dropped, and now the distinction is purely about layout – H for a double decker with a centre gangway, regardless of height, and L for lowbridge with a sunken side gangway for at least a part of the bus’s length. Frankly I’m very surprised at a 1966 Ian Allan publication using LD, as I have an earlier edition of BBF19 which shows all of Crosville’s Bristol Lodekkas as H.
Secondly, for operators with low bridges to contend with, what matters is the overall height rather than the layout, hence M&D’s use of DL for these Fleetlines.

Peter Williamson

Swindon Corporation – Daimler Fleetline – MWV 151G – 151

Swindon Corporation - Daimler Fleetline - MWV 151G - 151

Swindon Corporation
1969
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Northern Counties H43/29F

Seen in Brighton on the occasion of the HCVC rally in May 1971 is Swindon Corporation No.151, MWV 151G, with Northern Counties H43/29F bodywork, delivered in January 1969. The Swindon livery always reminded me of Rotherham’s scheme, but colour treatment of the front panel did not impress. Following the reorganisation of local government in 1974 the new district council adopted the meaningless name Thamesdown, reverting to the Swindon name when the new unitary authority was formed in 1997. Sadly, in 2017, the operation was sold to the Go-Ahead group.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


10/09/19 – 06:56

“Life of a Lens 2011” on Flikr has another photo of it, with some further information:
Withdrawn from use by Thamesdown Transport; 11-84
Sold to: Green (dealer), Weymouth 03-85, later to Dreamland Leisure Limited, Margate by 06-86 as a publicity vehicle and was still owned by them in 07-95.
Looks like a Southdown coach in front.
Good old Arkells Brewery are still going strong!

Chris Hebbron

PMT – Daimler CVG6 – XVT 676 – L6676


Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1956
Daimler CVG6
Northern Counties L31/28RD

The above vehicle is one of a 30 strong batch delivered in 1956 – half with Metro Cammell H61RD bodies, the other half as shown.
These were delivered with Gardner 5LW engines and Twyflex Centrifugal Clutches (rather than the more usual fluid flywheels). Both features I suspect were down to the BET Group’s parsimony in relation to fuel consumption. The 5LW was never a match for the hilly Potteries area in these buses. Over the years, more than half were fitted with 6LW engines and one, H6656, even acquired a fluid flywheel as well. They were colloquially known as ‘Jumpers’ referring to their tendency to lurch when pulling away on an uphill gradient, something more common with the 5LW versions. Only three of the lowbridge variety kept 5LWs to the bitter end, L6664, L6666 and L6673. The photo was taken at Sandbach in May 1969 and shows Burslem (locally pronounced “Boslum”) Depots L6676 on a Market Day extra from Hanley. Sandbach market was a popular attraction in the area in those days.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.


28/03/11 – 10:30

Apparently the Twiflex centrifugal clutch is still in production. To have lasted at least 54 years it must now be a judder-free product, though I know these things often depend on the installation. Fluid flywheels are reckoned to be only 96-97.5% efficient even at high revs/low load (where the engine itself isn’t particularly efficient) so I guess that allowing also for time spent in gear at traffic lights, with the engine on “heavy” idle churning the fluid round, the fuel consumption would be about 8% greater than that achieved with a clutch, whether plain or centrifugal. Two question, therefore:
1) Has anyone any comparative consumption figures?
2) Have any Twiflex-equipped buses survived?

Ian Thompson


25/01/13 – 18:10

There can’t have been many 27ft long lowbridge double deckers built with a top deck capacity of 31. It must have been achieved by an additional 4 seater row – I travelled on these quite frequently on the 46 to Blurton Estates but I don’t recall any particular problem with passing other seated passengers when alighting.

Ian Wild


26/01/13 – 06:38

Here’s a photo of a Twiflex Centrifugal Clutch, looking much like the shoe part of a drum brake, certainly simpler than a fluid flywheel. See //tinyurl.com

Chris Hebbron


27/01/13 – 07:55

That’s pretty much as I recall the Twiflex clutch except that the modern version seems to be hydraulically actuated (pipe to each segment). My recollection is that the shoe assemblies were on metalastic mounts which dampened the centrifugal force as the assembly was accelerated. It’s a long time ago-I may not have this quite right. interesting to see the design is now of Ukranian manufacture! I don’t recall having to replace one of these clutches whereas the fluid flywheel glands in Atlantean, Fleetline and Roadliner were commonplace failures.

Ian Wild


27/01/13 – 12:17

And to what vehicles do you recall these clutches being fitted, Ian?

Chris Hebbron


28/01/13 – 17:35

Chris-all 30 of the PMT Daimler CVG5s of 1956 were delivered with Twiflex clutches in place of fluid flywheels. I’m sure I’ve read somewhere (maybe elsewhere on this site?) that Walsall Corporation also tried them in the mid 50s.

Ian Wild


22/07/14 – 06:48

Walsall Corporation took delivery of 15 Daimler CVG6 buses with twiflex system transmission in 1956 and they were nicknamed “jumping jacks”. Here’s a newspaper report from 1974 referring to these buses: www.flickr.com/photos/walsall1955/

Walsall1955


09/12/15 – 06:09

At Stoke Depot we did meal break duties on these on the 46 Blurton run. These ‘Jumping Jacks’ were hated to a man.

David Knight

Burwell and District – Daimler CV – PHP 220

Burwell and District - Daimler CVG 6 - PHP 220

Burwell and District Motor Services
1952
Daimler CVG6
Northern Counties H33/28R

Burwell and District was a small company based in the Cambridgeshire village of that name, just to the north west of Newmarket. Like many such operators, it began just after WW1 when Mr Mansfield, a cycle and motor agent in the village, bought a 20 seat Model T Ford and ran a bus service to Cambridge. Other routes were developed, and, by the time of the 1930 Road Traffic Act, the firm had services to Bury St Edmunds and Ely in addition to the major route to Cambridge. Further stage carriage operations were added, and excursions and tours became an important element of the business, so much so that, from 1933, apart from a solitary Dennis Ace bus bought in 1938, all the vehicles purchased were coaches. The heavy passenger loads during the Second World War brought about the reversion to bus configured vehicles, and in 1941 the first double decker appeared. Several more followed as the war progressed, including three CWA6 utilities. In the post war period, clearly impressed with the Coventry product, the firm standardised on Daimler chassis for many years, though latterly AECs, particularly Reliances, became increasingly favoured. Secondhand purchases predominated from the late 1960s onwards until 1979, when the owners sought to retire. Attempts were made, in vain, to sell to another independent operator but 6th June 1979 saw the last journey run by the brown and cream buses. The following day Eastern Counties Bristols took over, and the entire Burwell fleet was put up for disposal. A full history and fleet list for Burwell and District may be found here: www.petergould.co.uk/burwell1.htm
PHP 220 was a Daimler CVG6 demonstrator of 1952 with a Northern Counties H33/28R body bought by Burwell and District in 1956 and withdrawn in 1972. It is seen here on 26th August 1959 in Drummer Street bus station, Cambridge (nowadays altered beyond recognition from its early layout) leaving on its way to Soham. It is passing one of the numerous Eastern Counties lowbridge K5Gs. Eastern Counties had very few low bridges in its territory, but allocated lowbridge double deckers to most of the country routes, keeping the highbridge fleet employed mainly on the Norwich and Cambridge town services. The contrast in refinement between the preselective, flexibly mounted, six cylinder highbridge Daimler and the rigidly mounted, five cylinder, constant mesh, lowbridge Bristol could surely not have been greater.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox


01/09/13 – 14:42

I well remember being very impressed by this lovely vehicle when, as a demonstrator, it was on loan to Leeds City Transport. I recall seeing it near the Town Hall on service 42 to Lower Wortley – can anyone recall if it was in some kind of deep purple, very dignified, or is the grey matter here really failing now ??

Chris Youhill


02/09/13 – 06:00

I was on that very last journey on June 6th 1979 and still have the ticket to prove it. It was operated by four Fleetlines and there was a certain amount of jockeying for position by the drivers in order to claim the title of the last Burwell bus to leave Drummer Street Bus Station. Our bus (9 DER) driven by Jim Neale, a relation of the Mansfield family, gained that honour although it wasn’t the last to arrive back at the depot. I recall that villagers stood at their garden gates and waved goodbye as the final service passed by.

Nigel Turner


02/09/13 – 08:00

Chris, Peter Gould gives the production date of PHP 220 as 1952, but Paul Carter, a highly respected expert on East Anglian operators, says it dates from 1954. When was it on loan to Leeds? Can anyone verify the issue date of the registration? I plumped for 1952 in the above text as the 1954 date seemed rather late for a demonstrator of such a very well established vehicle type.

Roger Cox


02/09/13 – 08:00

Volume 4 of Leeds Transport says that it was on loan from 24 August to 14 September 1954 and the livery was “maroon and cream without lining”.

Trevor Leach


02/09/13 – 16:15

Many thanks for that reassurance Trevor – at least my memory of the colour, while not 100% accurate, wasn’t too far wide of the mark. Mind you,in September 1954 I had other things on my mind, having just received from Her Majesty such a kind invitation to join her troops in blue on October 20th for a two year “event”.

Chris Youhill


02/09/13 – 16:15

Regarding the issue date of the registration of PHP by Coventry. I have two books which give details of various histories, issue dates, etc, of UK registrations. Both agree that Coventry started to issue PHP in July 1954. The next mark (PRW) followed in September 1954. So this would narrow down PHP220 to the summer of 1954. If the chassis dated from 1952 as suggested above, perhaps it was used by Daimler for it’s own internal purposes (or on trade plates?) before it’s use as a demonstrator. That’s just my speculation – I have no documentary evidence on Daimler’s use of the chassis, or when the body was built.

Michael Hampton


02/09/13 – 16:15

Bus Lists on the Web gives the date new as being 1954.
I last saw the bus in a yard in Northwich in 1972
But according to the recent PSV Circle publication regarding Daimler Chassis Numbers 16685 etc, the bus was built in 1952 as the 4th prototype CL lightweight chassis. Bodied in 1952 and first registered as a demonstrator in 1954. Sold to Burwell and District in March 1956. Re-designated as a CV by Daimler.
I also think that the shot above was photographed at Middlewich not Northwich.

Stephen Bloomfield


03/09/13 – 06:00

‘A History of Motor Vehicle Registrations in the United Kingdom’ by L.H. Newall shows that the County Borough Council of Coventry issued PHP marks from 7/54 until 9/54.

Stephen Howarth


03/09/13 – 06:00

‘Bus Lists On The Web’ gives a date new of 1954 on the Northern Counties body list, and the chassis number seems to point to much the same date. Coventry’s 1951/2 batch of CVD6s had KVC registrations, and their next delivery, CVG6s delivered in 1955/6, were RWK. So all the evidence appears to indicate that when this vehicle was on loan to Leeds, it was very, very, new.

David Call


03/09/13 – 16:30

Stephen’s account of the history of this vehicle is endorsed by Alan Townsin’s book on Daimler published by Ian Allen. If I had looked in my copy first I would have found the answer. He says that chassis 18337 was one of the CL prototype lightweight chassis of 1952, which suggests that it began life with a Gardner 5LW engine and the power hydraulic braking system of the CD650. It eventually emerged for psv use as PHP 220 with a lightweight Northern Counties body in 1954, by which time it had become a CVG6 with conventional vacuum brakes.

Roger Cox


03/09/13 – 16:30

I understood that the reason for lowbridge buses in the Eastern Counties fleet was the restricted headroom in their Ipswich depot and bus station.

Geoff Kerr


19/10/13 – 17:19

PHP 220 was acquired by B&D on 5th April 1956 and sold on 7th January 1972. While with B&D air brakes and gear change were fitted.

Jim Neale


16/03/16 – 15:34

Jim, the air-operated preselector was quite new to Daimler in 1954, having been announced that year as an option on the Freeline; according to a leaflet somebody sent me a scan of.

Stephen Allcroft


17/03/16 – 10:48

Stephen, the newest B&D Freeline with vacuum brakes was NVE 1, built in 1954. only the last 2, built in 1958/58 had air brakes and gearchange.
An amusing anecdote regarding the air-change on PHP was of a part-time driver, not familiar with the system parking on the bay in Drummer St. bus station leaving it in reverse gear. (i.e not engaging neutral by depressing the pedal after selecting). After tea-break and a slight air-leak when the engine was started the bus was stuck in reverse gear which required half of the bus station to be cleared while the embarrassed driver reversed round far enough to build up enough air-pressure to disengage reverse and then engage a forward gear to proceed.
The same P/T driver was also embarrassed a few years later when driving a Fleetline for the first time. He parked in Drummer St., opened the door with the gear selector and stopped the engine. When it was time to depart he pressed the starter button and nothing happened as the gear selector was still in the door position. After a few moments fiddling and no sign of life the Conductress was about to go to the phone box to call for assistance. I was a 16 year old passenger sitting on the back seat and knew what to do so made my way to the front of the bus, flicked the gear selector in to neutral and pressed the starter button and we were away.
I don’t think the driver liked being shown up by a teenager like that but I went on to drive many more miles in that bus than he ever did!

Jim Neale


17/03/16 – 15:19

I’ve one question from your original post info, Roger. Did the family sell the company to Eastern Counties in the end, or at least the goodwill, since EC didn’t buy their vehicles?

Chris Hebbron


17/03/16 – 15:20

Jim. Vacuum braked Freelines? I have only previously heard of hydraulic or air.

Stephen Allcroft


18/03/16 – 05:38

Stephen, To be honest I am not sure about the difference between vacuum and hydraulic brakes. I know the earlier Freelines did have a peculiar system which also involved the gear-change pedal but my experience driving them was very limited and I was only 21 at the time as most buses and coaches that I have driven have had air brakes.

Jim Neale


18/03/16 – 05:39

Yes, Chris, according to Paul Carter in his writings on Cambridge area operators, Burwell sold out to ECOC after all other approaches to independents proved fruitless. Paul’s book, “Cambridge 2”, includes some reminiscences by Jim Neale about his time with Burwell & District and afterwards – well worth a read. Turning to the Freeline braking question, I, too, can find no reference at all to a vacuum braked option. The power hydraulic braking system with which Daimler became rather besotted was the standard fitment to the Freeline, but Daimler very quietly introduced an air braked option in 1952. I cannot discover just how many Freelines had air brakes, but surely the eight that went to Great Yarmouth must have been so fitted. Geoff Hilditch is unremitting in his loathing of the brakes of the Halifax CD650 ‘deckers. He would assuredly not have ordered Freelines with the hated hydraulic system. Incidentally, the Freeline had a high driving position because the spare wheel was located beneath the floor at the front of the chassis. On the subject of the power hydraulic braking, steering, gearchange system, one wonders why Daimler became so wedded to this arrangement. The AEC Regent III had shown the way forward with air operated brakes and gearchange, and power assisted steering was always a possible extra fitment to any chassis if required. Daimler had previously adopted air brakes entirely successfully in its trolleybus chassis from 1936 onwards, so the firm was fully familiar with the system. Power Hydraulic braking was never popular with the operating industry, and apart from the special cases of London Transport’s RMs and Midland Red’s D9s, bus operating engineers elsewhere generally kept well clear. Those chassis that did have the full hydraulic system didn’t sell very well, witness the Dennis Lancet UF, Foden PVD/PVSC and the Tilling-Stevens Express MkII. No doubt other correspondents can think of some more examples.

Roger Cox


19/03/16 – 06:42

G. G. Hillditch did indeed specify air-operated brakes and gears (Daimatic) on FEX 524-5 and AEX 18-20B: he also had fitted Gardner rather than Daimler engines. He detailed the specification process in “Looking At Buses”.

Stephen Allcroft


12/05/16 – 15:53

Some pictures of the last days of Burwell & District may be found here:- //angliaandthamesvalleybusforum.com/index.php?

Roger Cox


24/08/16 – 06:03

With reference to Stephen Allcroft query re: Freeline vacuum brakes. I think what Jim meant was “Servo (vacuum) assisted hydraulic system” Lockheed called this “continuous flow system” It was also use3d on a lot of early Routemasters.

Lindsay Hancock

Lancaster City Transport – Daimler CV – NTF 466 – 466

Lancaster Corporation - Daimler CV - NTF 466 - 466

Lancaster City Transport
1952
Daimler CVG5
Northern Counties B35F

NTF 466 is a Daimler CVG5 with Northern Counties B35F body, built for Lancaster City Transport in 1952. There were three of them, but 467 and 468 were withdrawn in 1958. They had B32R bodies [with door!] when new and 466 was converted in the operator’s workshops to forward entrance layout in 1958. Now restored to her original livery, she carried Trafalgar Blue and White for a time after the ‘shotgun marriage’ of Lancaster and the adjacent Borough Of Morecambe & Heysham in 1974. [The other three Councils involved – Carnforth Urban District, Lancaster Rural District and Lunesdale Rural District – didn’t seem to object anywhere near so much, but Lancaster and Morecambe & Heysham had never ‘got on’.] She was retained for so long after her sisters for a very simple reason. Her 7ft 6in body was narrow enough to fit through the gateway of Lancaster Castle. Most of the place had been used as a prison for many years and this was the last vehicle in the fleet capable of taking the inmates to the prison’s farms. She is seen in the museum in St Helens on 15 August 2012, and the adjacent information board tells us she was known – for fairly obvious reasons – as ‘the prison bus’.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


10/05/15 – 16:28

A beauty, looking good. Would have loved the big old CAV headlamps (if indeed she once had them) but you can’t have everything! I can’t spot the date she actually retired- was it a record?
Am I right to wonder if she also got one of those neck-cricking OMO “squint” windows to the cab when the door was moved?

Joe


10/05/15 – 16:49

I believe it was withdrawn in 1977 but kept as a keepsake until the end of LCT in 1993

Paul Turner


11/05/15 – 07:12

I quote from a former employee of LCT, Richard Allen, who supplied me with much information about the company which enabled me to provide a fleet list for this site: “NTF 466 was new as B36R just like NTF 467/8. It was rebuilt to B32F for OPO from 01/58 and in 06/1970 it was upseated to 35 in connection with the prison contract which it worked. It was considered too slow and laborious for OPO when underfloor engined buses were arriving, so 467/8 were never considered for conversion and were sold at the end of 1958”.
It doesn’t answer your question, Joe, about windows, but if it did acquire something different it doesn’t sound like it was used for very long!

Dave Towers


11/05/15 – 07:12

Am I right in thinking that Trafalgar blue wasn’t the first choice of the “transport department” – didn’t they plump for a maroon colour with “City of Lancaster” fleetname to start with? I think the blue livery/Lancaster City Council fleetname was the result of a decision to adopt a “house-style” across the Council.

Philip Rushworth


12/05/15 – 06:57

Philip, In the early days of the merged operation, both sides kept their old colours with CITY OF LANCASTER in Tilling style as the fleetname. I have photographs of both backgrounds with that name. Certainly, the Trafalgar blue and white appeared to be the “house style” which came in fairly quickly.

Pete Davies


14/05/15 – 07:19

There was a good article in the February-March issue of ‘Classic Bus’ on the Lancaster-Morecambe & Heysham merger. It is written by Thomas Knowles who was GM of the combined undertaking from the outset and he outlines the problems he had with bringing the two former operations together. It contains plenty of good photographs.

Philip Halstead


This bus was repainted in Trafalgar blue in 1977 as part of the Queen’s Silver Jubilee celebrations and ran a service along Morecambe seafront over that summer its prison bus replacement was a Tiger Cub with single door East Lancs bodywork.
A friend who was a management trainee with Lancaster once told me that this bus also survived so long because the prisoners could not overpower the driver in his separate cab!

Chris Hough


12/12/16 – 06:38

As a belated update on this vehicle it was also fitted with a rear facing seat at the front so the guards could watch the prisoners. It has problems with its brakes which is why it is not in current use, however there are plans for it to be repaired and returned to the road for 2017.
It is a fine looking vehicle and should be very popular on the free bus running days at the Northwest Transport museum in St Helens.

John P


13/12/16 – 07:15

Do I interpret, from your info, Pete, that the two Rural District Councils ran buses? If so, they’re the first I’ve come across.

Chris Hebbron


13/12/16 – 09:38

No, Chris. Only Lancaster City and Morecambe & Heysham Borough ran buses (trams previously). The two RDCs relied on Ribble and while Carnforth UD had no bus operations, it was the northern terminus of M&H service 73 which was operated jointly with Ribble. This was in addition to Ribble services passing through.
I meant in my original copy that the two Councils never ‘got on’. The remarks by each about the other were little short of hatred, very much like the supporters of one football club say about the supporters of their neighbours. Portsmouth and  Southampton, Aston Villa and Birmingham City, or Manchester City and Manchester United, for example!

Pete Davies


13/12/16 – 14:16

Sorry, Chris H, I must insist, the replacement for 466 on the prison work was not a Tiger Cub but one of the dual-doorway Leopards, the batch being 101-103 (101-103 UTF). I don’t recall ever seeing a Tiger Cub on prison duties.
What I can’t now remember, for sure, is whether one of the Leopards was used consistently, or whether all were used in turn, but if I had to guess, I would say it was the former.

David Call


15/12/16 – 13:55

Pete D, I think you must have rushed that last comment, since I’m sure that if you’d thought about it you would have realised that what you were saying wasn’t quite correct. Service 73 was essentially Ribble service 73, since, throughout the period of service 73’s existence, M & H did not themselves use route numbers. As to whether it being Ribble service 73 also made it M & H service 73, irrespective of M & H not making a point of using route numbers, let alone displaying them on vehicles, I wouldn’t like to say. We’d probably need a contemporary M & H timetable to determine that one.
Sometime in the mid-1960s, as part of a Ribble policy of renumbering its Northern area services as 5xx or 6xx, service 73 became service 573. Not long afterwards (I’m not sure exactly how long, though) M & H received its first AEC Swifts, 1-6 (CTJ 101-6E). These were intended to be used OPO from the word go, and one of the routes they went on was Morecambe-Carnforth, upon which they displayed the number 573. Unfortunately, because the rest of the M & H routes were at this time still unnumbered, there was no great incentive for drivers to wind off the 573 display, so M & H’s other OPO routes seemed to become ‘573’! In due course (I think it was around 1970) M & H did introduce its own route numbering system.
Interestingly, when the M & H journeys on Morecambe-Carnforth went OPO, the Ribble-operated ones remained crew-operated, and this situation remained for about twelve months. In a company/municipal situation, you would have thought it would be the company which would be the first in with OPO.

David Call


16/12/16 – 06:24

Yes, Mr Call, you are of course correct. Apologies to the readership for any confusion. I’ll go back to sleep!

Pete Davies

S H M D – Atkinson PD746 – UMA 370 – 70


Copyright David Beilby

Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield
1955
Atkinson Mk II (6LW)
Northern Counties H35/25CD

Following on from Roger Broughton’s comments on the S.H.M.D. Daimler CVD6 posting I thought it might be appropriate to post this view of the preserved S.H.M.D. Atkinson double-decker in Stalybridge bus station on 30th April 1978. The location still contains many props used for the filming of ‘Yanks’ and the less kind may have commented that Stalybridge had to be modernised to bring it up to the 1940s setting for the film!
I encountered some of the filming here by chance. I arrived at Stalybridge on the late train from Leeds (the one-time York – Aberystwyth mail train) and saw a pool of light coming from the town centre. Going over to investigate I found in the bus station the two Keighley-West Yorkshire veterans (JUB 29 and CWX 671) given those Stalybridge and District fleet names and dirtied in a very effective manner. Also on standby was a Grey Cars Regal III which was even less historically accurate. I don’t recall much of this footage escaping the cutting room floor.

Photograph and Copy contributed by David Beilby


14/04/11 – 05:00

Not sure about the Atkinson Mk II heading – surely this was a PD746 or possibly a PD746S, I’ve seen both versions used. And if it was a “Mark II” then what was a “Mark I”? Whatever its official designation it remains a lovely machine and thank heavens that it was preserved for posterity.

Neville Mercer


27/04/11 – 07:28

One-off designs tend to have a short and unsuccessful life due to lack of proof testing that volume production brings but the Atkinson double decker seemed to have a full and active service life with SHMD. This is perhaps because it was built from well proven major component parts, ie a Gardner 6LW engine and I believe a Self-changing Gears semi-automatic gearbox. It is a great pity Atkinson did not produce more double-deckers as they obviously got the package right.
Their sortie into single-deck production was largely at the behest of some North West operators who wanted a robust Gardner engined vehicle on the lines of the Bristol MW which was not available to non-BTC companies in the 1950’s. Atkinson supplied the Alpha saloon to LUT, North Western and SHMD at this time.
LUT was fairly well wedded to Guy Arabs for its double deck purchases and North Western, requiring low-height vehicles chose the Dennis Loline so apart from the solitary SHMD vehicle there were no other double-deck deliveries from Atkinson.
I have ridden on no.70 at Boyle Street and I agree it is a splendid machine. The centre-entrance makes it a doubly unusual vehicle. I understand this came about as the general manager at the time came from Blackpool and was influenced by those splendid Burlingham PD2’s.

Philip Halstead


27/04/11 – 13:19

Thank you David for the extra info regarding other buses readied for the film

Roger Broughton


14/11/11 – 17:43

Arthur Brearley, the HPTD driving instructor during the 1960s, told me that the Atkinson PD746 was seriously considered by Halifax in the 1950s. In the event, further Daimlers arrived.

Roger Cox


29/11/11 – 17:03

When 70 bus Atkinson DD was delivered new it was fitted with a David Brown gearbox not a lot of people know that

Old Bus Driver


01/12/11 – 07:43

I haven’t watched the excellent film “Yanks” for a good while now, but much of it was filmed in Keighley and I think the bus concerned was Keith Jenkinson’s Keighley-West Yorkshire Titan JUB 29 wasn’t it ??

Chris Youhill


01/12/11 – 07:44

Yes it was Keith Jenkinson’s JUB 29 Chris. I remember it spending a short time in West Yorkshire’s Body Shop for a general sprucing up after filming had finished. It was tucked snugly in the back left-hand corner (viewed from Westmoreland Street) and achieved almost ‘local celebrity’ status with some of the older staff during its brief stay. Like you, I’ve never seen the film, but know that quite a lot of the scenes were shot around Keighley and its railway station. That would tie in very nicely with the Keighley-West Yorkshire vehicle, not to mention the splendid engines of the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway.

Brendan Smith


01/12/11 – 07:45

David Brown was a prolific supplier of gearboxes to lorry builders such as the likes of Atkinson, Foden and ERF in the 40’s 50’s and 60’s, usually mated to Gardner engines, so I wouldn’t be surprised that the only Atkinson double decker was so supplied. What I do not know is was David Brown gearboxes as popular with the bus chassis builders of the period?

Eric


01/12/11 – 15:21

About D Brown gearboxes SHMD had 2 Daimler dds with DB gearboxes and they were nice to drive unlike the Atkinson dd which was orible, very slow change and very heavy steering.

Old Bus Driver


04/12/11 – 07:55

Bus manufacturers had a stronger preference for making their own gearboxes than lorry builders, but the users of David Brown gearboxes in PSVs I know of were BMMO (all postwar manual transmission models I think), Tilling-Stevens, Atkinson (Alpha), Bristol (SC4LK) and Daimler (CSG). The Daimler CSG was overtaken by events, soon being replaced by the CCG with Guy transmission when Daimler and Guy came under common control.

Peter Williamson


05/12/11 – 06:40

Thank you for that info. Peter.
Interesting to note that of the five chassis makes/models you list three of them would have been fitted with Gardner engines. What would be the normal engine choice for the Tilling-Stevens?

Eric


05/12/11 – 16:46

The immediate post-war Tilling-Stevens Express models certainly had David Brown gearboxes and those I know of had Gardner 5LW or 6LW engines. The majority of post-war Expresses went to Hong Kong. They were sound chassis and these engines/gearboxes gave them great reliability. (One, I believe, has survived). Were that other chassis builders of the time – Crossley in particular, had done the same.

Chris Hebbron


06/12/11 – 06:39

The Bristol SU chassis also utilised a David Brown (5-speed) gearbox, but for some reason Bristol turned to Turner (no pun intended!) for gearboxes on the LH. Funny how to many of us, David Brown gearboxes seem more associated with lorries than buses, as Eric says. It’s interesting to learn that BMMO and Tilling-Stevens also used them. As an aside, when David Brown purchased Aston Martin many years ago, the letters DB were used on consecutive new models over the years, to denote the ownership.

Brendan Smith


08/12/11 – 06:38

The alternative to Gardner engines in postwar Tilling-Stevens models was Meadows. The survivor, GOU 732 from memory, originally had a Meadows engine but now has a Gardner 6LW.

Peter Williamson


08/12/11 – 15:35

Following on from my post above, for what it’s worth, here’s a link to the Hong Kong Tilling-Stevens Express survivor: //cmchk.no-ip.org/
If memory serves me, I believe that Hong Kong had the largest fleet, well over 100, of post-war Tilling-Stevens in the world and they lasted over 20 years in service.

Chris Hebbron


16/04/12 – 07:38

So pleased to read about the Atkinson 70. Took me into Manchester(Schooldays) daily when on the splendid fast 125 Glossop Hyde Manchester limited stop service in the fifties!. I remember drivers struggling with the gear box when it first came into service. A lovely vehicle to ride on but never up to the speed of the CVD6 vehicles 23-24-25 that worked the 125 so regularly. Great days – SHMD was transport at its best – and yes – we always called it “the Joint Board”

Roger Chadwick


07/10/12 – 08:32

I came across the ‘S.H.M.D. No.70’ correspondence purely by chance. I travelled on the Atkinson bus in the mid-60s and remember its sluggish performance compared to that of the six, similarly-bodied, Daimlers bought by S.H.M.D. whose last two, open-platform, Daimler doubler-deckers-dating from 1959-seem to have been unpopular with drivers because of their ‘awkward’ (David Brown) gearboxes: one of them was heard to say that you could ‘have a meal’ in the time that it took to make a gear change. Given the hilly nature of the S.H.M.D.’s operating area, one wonders how such apparent ‘lemons’ came to be bought at a time when the Joint Board was taking its first Leyland PD2s that seemed to take very steep routes in their stride (unlike those PD2s operated by Manchester on shared routes). Lancashire United bought a 1959 Guy Arab (now preserved) which also had a David Brown gearbox: enthusiasts who test-drove this bus on a ‘flat’ circuit found the ‘box ‘tricky’ when selecting gears but were otherwise quite satisfied with it.

John Hardman


07/10/12 – 11:29

Philip Halstead said that the Atkinson single decker was designed and built at the behest of “some” North West operators.
It was more specific than that. North Western Road Car was, to say the least, miffed to find itself remaining under the BET banner after the 1947 Transport Act which nationalised the Tilling companies in whose company NW, a dedicated Bristol user, felt at home.
With the Act due to become law in 1948, and aware of long delivery times, NW ordered 122 Bristol single deckers before the terms of the Act restricted Bristol purchases to the nationalised Tilling Group.
The last of these were delivered in 1950. Double deckers were in the minority in the fleet and NW was seemingly happy with its PD1 and PD2 purchases in the late 1940s and plans to re-body its 1938/9 K5Gs and austerity Guy Arabs with Northern Coach Builders bodies, chosen because a senior NCB manager was ex-Eastern Coach Works. A spanner was thrown in the works when NCB suddenly closed on the death of its owner and the re-bodying contract passed to Willowbrook.
Much of the double decker territory was relatively flat around Stockport, Manchester and out on the Cheshire Plain. The singles however had to tackle parts of the Pennines and the Peak District and the Gardner powerplant was deemed necessary.
The problem was the favoured Gardner engine was only available powering products from Coventry, Wolverhampton Sandbach and Guildford – none of which suited. A massive rebodying programme of the pre war Bristol singles was implemented and what were effectively “new” Bristols continued to appear until 1952 after which further complex body swapping went on well into the late 1950s.
In 1949 Atkinsons were approached by NW Chief Engineer H Stuart Driver and they agreed to build a single decker to NW’s “proxy Bristol” requirements.
The first two with Weymann bodies arrived in 1951 and were compared to two Leyland/Weymann Olympics. Whilst they had rear entrances, compared to the Leylands’ front entrance, everything else was vastly in their favour.
A further 14 followed in 1953, the last two were bodied by Willowbrook as “lightweight” vehicles with single rear wheels, the last had a 4 cylinder Gardner engine in place of the 5LW but was found to be unsatisfactory.
An order for 100 5LW powered lightweights was placed but this was countermanded by the BET main board. Stuart Driver made a presentation to the BET main board showing the benefits of the Atkinson against the BET now preferred Leyland Royal Tiger. His presentation was rejected.
He caught the first train back to Stockport, cleared his desk and walked out. NW, for better or worse got Royal Tigers and later Tiger Cubs. The Atkinsons gave around 13/14 years service and, had they been front entrance, would have lasted longer in OMO service.
I rode on these to school many times and they were quick, though the rear entrance with steep steps didn’t help loading and unloading.
Meanwhile LUT had been watching developments between NW and Atkinsons and ordered vehicles which were to be delivered in 1952 with front entrance bodies on 6 and centre entrance bodies on 4. Between 1952 and 1955 LUT amassed no less than 40 of the type.
SHMD was a dedicated Thorneycroft user. When production of Thorneycroft buses ceased, their allegiance changed to Daimler. They bought a Freeline single decker in 1952 fitted with a centre entrance standee 60 passenger capacity body. The body was deemed a success, the chassis wasn’t, so follow on orders for the body were placed on Atkinson chassis. The deliveries between 1953 and 1956 were centre entrance, the last in 1959 were front entrance but were arranged with 34 seats and a standee area for 26.
A total of 7 single deckers and the double decker were purchased by SHMD, the double decker being an attempt to find an alternative to the Daimler chassis then dominating the double decker fleet.
When Frank Brimelow took over as SHMD General manager in 1956 he took two batches of PD2s. These had fully rated 0.600 engines – the reason they outperformed their Manchester counterparts which, under Albert Neal’s parsimonious pursuit of economies, de-rated his engines to 100bhp.
Had NW got its way, had the double decker been built for a more substantial operator, had the prototype not been with an oddball body layout, had the Bamber Bridge facility been larger, had ifs and ands been pots and pans……………you know what I mean.

Phil Blinkhorn


07/10/12 – 13:35

During the brief period when I was a Schedules Clerk at SELNEC in the early 70’s, I worked with a chap called Peter Caunt who had worked at North Western, both in the offices and as a driver.
In his inimitably enthusiastic manner he recalled driving the Atkinsons, which he referred to as the ‘fastest coal lorries in the north’. He said they were very quick – even more so than the Reliances – but that they had very heavy steering and gearchanges making them hard work for a full shift unless you were built like Goliath. The accelerator pedal was of the organ type, which at only low revs had already reached a horizontal aspect. Pressing down any further caused the pedal to point downwards towards its front end causing great discomfort to one’s ankle – especially on a long hill climb. Drivers resorted to attaching wooden wedges to the pedal to alleviate the problem.
I remember him telling me how one of them had suffered a gearbox failure and an ‘engineering team’ was despatched by the manufacturer to replace it. When they turned up they were mistaken for gypsies and almost thrown off the premises. ‘A right pair of toe-rags’, Peter quoted, they were not allowed into the works, so the bus was shunted into the yard and they did the entire job under the crudest of conditions using just brute strength and with the meagerest of tools.
Years later (1984) he went on to write his bus driving memoirs in ‘North Western – A Driver’s Reminiscences’, to which I have referred to jog my memory. It still turns up regularly on bookstalls at rallies.

John Stringer


09/04/13 – 17:47

I was a fitter at North Western at Stockport for 10 years. The Atkinson Alphas had 5HLW Gardners and we had some with 6HLW Gardners these all had Atkinsons own gearboxes (copy of D Brown), not very good. We had two light weight Alphas with single rear wheels these had 5HLW Gardners and genuine David Brown gearboxes.

Geoff Burgess


03/02/16 – 14:39

Regarding SHMD 70 Atky it was a great bus to drive. The steering was very heavy indeed.
It was used for the express route from Manchester where it left and did not stop until it was in our area. The shift was I think 4 times per evening and everyone (just once fell for it) though it was a good payer but in reality it was a full duty. Once it got going it Flew!! Stopping was a concern.!! It used to terminate in Carrbrook I think (a long time ago so could be wrong). Happy day’s.

Philip Worley


04/02/16 – 13:25

UMA 370
SHMD Creast

As many readers of these columns will be aware, this was the only double decker Atkinson ever built, and according to various sources this was one of the reasons they declined an invitation to produce a clone of the Daimler Fleetline. That clone became the Dennis Dominator.
UMA 370 managed to join the ranks of the preserved, and we see her in the GM Museum at Boyle Street on 19 August 2012. Conditions there were a little cramped, to say the least, at the time of my visit. Still, I did capture a view of the Crest.

Pete Davies


04/02/16 – 16:54

As many people will be aware, the “knight” radiator mascot from this vehicle was stolen from the Boyle St museum recently. It is believed to be unique, so if anybody notices it anywhere please get in touch with the GMTS website. Incidentally, does anybody know why Atkinson put a knight motif on it in the first place? I’ve always suspected that they were sort of imitating Guy’s Indian chief mascot.

Neville Mercer


05/02/16 – 06:38

The knight motif was an allusion to the expression “Knights of the Road”, a term that was once, but emphatically not nowadays, applied to the lorry driving fraternity.

Roger Cox


06/02/16 – 06:55

Oh, Roger! There are, as we all know, some bad eggs in the bus industry as well, but the professional truck driver is several rungs further up the ladder of ‘knighthood’ than the average white van man . . .

Pete Davies


06/02/16 – 06:55

In the 1960s Atkinson produced a range of lorries with ‘Knight’ in the name – Black Knight, Gold Knight and Silver Knight spring to mind – and appropriate badges were often seen attached to the radiators. This has triggered memories of W J Riding’s immaculate fleet of dark blue and silver-grey Atkinson lorries, which were a familiar sight on the roads at that time.

Brendan Smith


14/07/17 – 07:34

18 months on; did the missing mascot ever turn up? Has anyone tried to make ‘a reasonable facsimile’ of it,using images to work from?

John Hardman


30/10/19 – 06:59

This bus now has a matching set of recessed front wheel centres for the first time since 1971. A swap of wheels at Stalybridge with the just restored 70 and the then withdrawn Daimler 61 has been reversed. The Atkinson had recessed centres to allow Atkinson aluminium hub covers. Sadly still no sign of the Knights Head rad badge.

Neil Kenworthy


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


30/05/21 – 06:56

UMA 370_2

During these damp May days, I have come across this photo taken at Blackpool Rally on August 21 1977. I have a scribbled note that it was owned by GMPTE at the time.

Geoff Pullin

Hebble – AEC Regent V – PCP 403 – 277

Hebble - AEC Regent V - PCP 403 - 277

Hebble Motor Services
1962
AEC Regent V
Northern Counties H65F

These two Regent Vs of Hebble are in Halifax bus station the one on the left is five years older with a Weymann Orion body there is a better colour shot of one of these buses here. I am not sure what the registration is of the one on the left as it seems to have fallen off.


one on left LJX 198 – Hebble

Anonymous


01/07/14 – 06:45

No, I’m afraid the one on the left is not LJX 198 – that reg belongs to a front-entrance Regent V now preserved. I think this batch of rear-entrance Regent Vs were registered GJX —.

Iain Templeton