Seen in Brighton on the occasion of the HCVC rally in May 1971 is Swindon Corporation No.151, MWV 151G, with Northern Counties H43/29F bodywork, delivered in January 1969. The Swindon livery always reminded me of Rotherham’s scheme, but colour treatment of the front panel did not impress. Following the reorganisation of local government in 1974 the new district council adopted the meaningless name Thamesdown, reverting to the Swindon name when the new unitary authority was formed in 1997. Sadly, in 2017, the operation was sold to the Go-Ahead group.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
10/09/19 – 06:56
“Life of a Lens 2011” on Flikr has another photo of it, with some further information: Withdrawn from use by Thamesdown Transport; 11-84 Sold to: Green (dealer), Weymouth 03-85, later to Dreamland Leisure Limited, Margate by 06-86 as a publicity vehicle and was still owned by them in 07-95. Looks like a Southdown coach in front. Good old Arkells Brewery are still going strong!
Potteries Motor Traction 1956 Daimler CVG6 Northern Counties L31/28RD
The above vehicle is one of a 30 strong batch delivered in 1956 – half with Metro Cammell H61RD bodies, the other half as shown. These were delivered with Gardner 5LW engines and Twyflex Centrifugal Clutches (rather than the more usual fluid flywheels). Both features I suspect were down to the BET Group’s parsimony in relation to fuel consumption. The 5LW was never a match for the hilly Potteries area in these buses. Over the years, more than half were fitted with 6LW engines and one, H6656, even acquired a fluid flywheel as well. They were colloquially known as ‘Jumpers’ referring to their tendency to lurch when pulling away on an uphill gradient, something more common with the 5LW versions. Only three of the lowbridge variety kept 5LWs to the bitter end, L6664, L6666 and L6673. The photo was taken at Sandbach in May 1969 and shows Burslem (locally pronounced “Boslum”) Depots L6676 on a Market Day extra from Hanley. Sandbach market was a popular attraction in the area in those days.
Apparently the Twiflex centrifugal clutch is still in production. To have lasted at least 54 years it must now be a judder-free product, though I know these things often depend on the installation. Fluid flywheels are reckoned to be only 96-97.5% efficient even at high revs/low load (where the engine itself isn’t particularly efficient) so I guess that allowing also for time spent in gear at traffic lights, with the engine on “heavy” idle churning the fluid round, the fuel consumption would be about 8% greater than that achieved with a clutch, whether plain or centrifugal. Two question, therefore: 1) Has anyone any comparative consumption figures? 2) Have any Twiflex-equipped buses survived?
Ian Thompson
25/01/13 – 18:10
There can’t have been many 27ft long lowbridge double deckers built with a top deck capacity of 31. It must have been achieved by an additional 4 seater row – I travelled on these quite frequently on the 46 to Blurton Estates but I don’t recall any particular problem with passing other seated passengers when alighting.
Ian Wild
26/01/13 – 06:38
Here’s a photo of a Twiflex Centrifugal Clutch, looking much like the shoe part of a drum brake, certainly simpler than a fluid flywheel. See //tinyurl.com
Chris Hebbron
27/01/13 – 07:55
That’s pretty much as I recall the Twiflex clutch except that the modern version seems to be hydraulically actuated (pipe to each segment). My recollection is that the shoe assemblies were on metalastic mounts which dampened the centrifugal force as the assembly was accelerated. It’s a long time ago-I may not have this quite right. interesting to see the design is now of Ukranian manufacture! I don’t recall having to replace one of these clutches whereas the fluid flywheel glands in Atlantean, Fleetline and Roadliner were commonplace failures.
Ian Wild
27/01/13 – 12:17
And to what vehicles do you recall these clutches being fitted, Ian?
Chris Hebbron
28/01/13 – 17:35
Chris-all 30 of the PMT Daimler CVG5s of 1956 were delivered with Twiflex clutches in place of fluid flywheels. I’m sure I’ve read somewhere (maybe elsewhere on this site?) that Walsall Corporation also tried them in the mid 50s.
Ian Wild
22/07/14 – 06:48
Walsall Corporation took delivery of 15 Daimler CVG6 buses with twiflex system transmission in 1956 and they were nicknamed “jumping jacks”. Here’s a newspaper report from 1974 referring to these buses: www.flickr.com/photos/walsall1955/
Walsall1955
09/12/15 – 06:09
At Stoke Depot we did meal break duties on these on the 46 Blurton run. These ‘Jumping Jacks’ were hated to a man.
Burwell and District Motor Services 1952 Daimler CVG6 Northern Counties H33/28R
Burwell and District was a small company based in the Cambridgeshire village of that name, just to the north west of Newmarket. Like many such operators, it began just after WW1 when Mr Mansfield, a cycle and motor agent in the village, bought a 20 seat Model T Ford and ran a bus service to Cambridge. Other routes were developed, and, by the time of the 1930 Road Traffic Act, the firm had services to Bury St Edmunds and Ely in addition to the major route to Cambridge. Further stage carriage operations were added, and excursions and tours became an important element of the business, so much so that, from 1933, apart from a solitary Dennis Ace bus bought in 1938, all the vehicles purchased were coaches. The heavy passenger loads during the Second World War brought about the reversion to bus configured vehicles, and in 1941 the first double decker appeared. Several more followed as the war progressed, including three CWA6 utilities. In the post war period, clearly impressed with the Coventry product, the firm standardised on Daimler chassis for many years, though latterly AECs, particularly Reliances, became increasingly favoured. Secondhand purchases predominated from the late 1960s onwards until 1979, when the owners sought to retire. Attempts were made, in vain, to sell to another independent operator but 6th June 1979 saw the last journey run by the brown and cream buses. The following day Eastern Counties Bristols took over, and the entire Burwell fleet was put up for disposal. A full history and fleet list for Burwell and District may be found here: www.petergould.co.uk/burwell1.htm PHP 220 was a Daimler CVG6 demonstrator of 1952 with a Northern Counties H33/28R body bought by Burwell and District in 1956 and withdrawn in 1972. It is seen here on 26th August 1959 in Drummer Street bus station, Cambridge (nowadays altered beyond recognition from its early layout) leaving on its way to Soham. It is passing one of the numerous Eastern Counties lowbridge K5Gs. Eastern Counties had very few low bridges in its territory, but allocated lowbridge double deckers to most of the country routes, keeping the highbridge fleet employed mainly on the Norwich and Cambridge town services. The contrast in refinement between the preselective, flexibly mounted, six cylinder highbridge Daimler and the rigidly mounted, five cylinder, constant mesh, lowbridge Bristol could surely not have been greater.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
01/09/13 – 14:42
I well remember being very impressed by this lovely vehicle when, as a demonstrator, it was on loan to Leeds City Transport. I recall seeing it near the Town Hall on service 42 to Lower Wortley – can anyone recall if it was in some kind of deep purple, very dignified, or is the grey matter here really failing now ??
Chris Youhill
02/09/13 – 06:00
I was on that very last journey on June 6th 1979 and still have the ticket to prove it. It was operated by four Fleetlines and there was a certain amount of jockeying for position by the drivers in order to claim the title of the last Burwell bus to leave Drummer Street Bus Station. Our bus (9 DER) driven by Jim Neale, a relation of the Mansfield family, gained that honour although it wasn’t the last to arrive back at the depot. I recall that villagers stood at their garden gates and waved goodbye as the final service passed by.
Nigel Turner
02/09/13 – 08:00
Chris, Peter Gould gives the production date of PHP 220 as 1952, but Paul Carter, a highly respected expert on East Anglian operators, says it dates from 1954. When was it on loan to Leeds? Can anyone verify the issue date of the registration? I plumped for 1952 in the above text as the 1954 date seemed rather late for a demonstrator of such a very well established vehicle type.
Roger Cox
02/09/13 – 08:00
Volume 4 of Leeds Transport says that it was on loan from 24 August to 14 September 1954 and the livery was “maroon and cream without lining”.
Trevor Leach
02/09/13 – 16:15
Many thanks for that reassurance Trevor – at least my memory of the colour, while not 100% accurate, wasn’t too far wide of the mark. Mind you,in September 1954 I had other things on my mind, having just received from Her Majesty such a kind invitation to join her troops in blue on October 20th for a two year “event”.
Chris Youhill
02/09/13 – 16:15
Regarding the issue date of the registration of PHP by Coventry. I have two books which give details of various histories, issue dates, etc, of UK registrations. Both agree that Coventry started to issue PHP in July 1954. The next mark (PRW) followed in September 1954. So this would narrow down PHP220 to the summer of 1954. If the chassis dated from 1952 as suggested above, perhaps it was used by Daimler for it’s own internal purposes (or on trade plates?) before it’s use as a demonstrator. That’s just my speculation – I have no documentary evidence on Daimler’s use of the chassis, or when the body was built.
Michael Hampton
02/09/13 – 16:15
Bus Lists on the Web gives the date new as being 1954. I last saw the bus in a yard in Northwich in 1972 But according to the recent PSV Circle publication regarding Daimler Chassis Numbers 16685 etc, the bus was built in 1952 as the 4th prototype CL lightweight chassis. Bodied in 1952 and first registered as a demonstrator in 1954. Sold to Burwell and District in March 1956. Re-designated as a CV by Daimler. I also think that the shot above was photographed at Middlewich not Northwich.
Stephen Bloomfield
03/09/13 – 06:00
‘A History of Motor Vehicle Registrations in the United Kingdom’ by L.H. Newall shows that the County Borough Council of Coventry issued PHP marks from 7/54 until 9/54.
Stephen Howarth
03/09/13 – 06:00
‘Bus Lists On The Web’ gives a date new of 1954 on the Northern Counties body list, and the chassis number seems to point to much the same date. Coventry’s 1951/2 batch of CVD6s had KVC registrations, and their next delivery, CVG6s delivered in 1955/6, were RWK. So all the evidence appears to indicate that when this vehicle was on loan to Leeds, it was very, very, new.
David Call
03/09/13 – 16:30
Stephen’s account of the history of this vehicle is endorsed by Alan Townsin’s book on Daimler published by Ian Allen. If I had looked in my copy first I would have found the answer. He says that chassis 18337 was one of the CL prototype lightweight chassis of 1952, which suggests that it began life with a Gardner 5LW engine and the power hydraulic braking system of the CD650. It eventually emerged for psv use as PHP 220 with a lightweight Northern Counties body in 1954, by which time it had become a CVG6 with conventional vacuum brakes.
Roger Cox
03/09/13 – 16:30
I understood that the reason for lowbridge buses in the Eastern Counties fleet was the restricted headroom in their Ipswich depot and bus station.
Geoff Kerr
19/10/13 – 17:19
PHP 220 was acquired by B&D on 5th April 1956 and sold on 7th January 1972. While with B&D air brakes and gear change were fitted.
Jim Neale
16/03/16 – 15:34
Jim, the air-operated preselector was quite new to Daimler in 1954, having been announced that year as an option on the Freeline; according to a leaflet somebody sent me a scan of.
Stephen Allcroft
17/03/16 – 10:48
Stephen, the newest B&D Freeline with vacuum brakes was NVE 1, built in 1954. only the last 2, built in 1958/58 had air brakes and gearchange. An amusing anecdote regarding the air-change on PHP was of a part-time driver, not familiar with the system parking on the bay in Drummer St. bus station leaving it in reverse gear. (i.e not engaging neutral by depressing the pedal after selecting). After tea-break and a slight air-leak when the engine was started the bus was stuck in reverse gear which required half of the bus station to be cleared while the embarrassed driver reversed round far enough to build up enough air-pressure to disengage reverse and then engage a forward gear to proceed. The same P/T driver was also embarrassed a few years later when driving a Fleetline for the first time. He parked in Drummer St., opened the door with the gear selector and stopped the engine. When it was time to depart he pressed the starter button and nothing happened as the gear selector was still in the door position. After a few moments fiddling and no sign of life the Conductress was about to go to the phone box to call for assistance. I was a 16 year old passenger sitting on the back seat and knew what to do so made my way to the front of the bus, flicked the gear selector in to neutral and pressed the starter button and we were away. I don’t think the driver liked being shown up by a teenager like that but I went on to drive many more miles in that bus than he ever did!
Jim Neale
17/03/16 – 15:19
I’ve one question from your original post info, Roger. Did the family sell the company to Eastern Counties in the end, or at least the goodwill, since EC didn’t buy their vehicles?
Chris Hebbron
17/03/16 – 15:20
Jim. Vacuum braked Freelines? I have only previously heard of hydraulic or air.
Stephen Allcroft
18/03/16 – 05:38
Stephen, To be honest I am not sure about the difference between vacuum and hydraulic brakes. I know the earlier Freelines did have a peculiar system which also involved the gear-change pedal but my experience driving them was very limited and I was only 21 at the time as most buses and coaches that I have driven have had air brakes.
Jim Neale
18/03/16 – 05:39
Yes, Chris, according to Paul Carter in his writings on Cambridge area operators, Burwell sold out to ECOC after all other approaches to independents proved fruitless. Paul’s book, “Cambridge 2”, includes some reminiscences by Jim Neale about his time with Burwell & District and afterwards – well worth a read. Turning to the Freeline braking question, I, too, can find no reference at all to a vacuum braked option. The power hydraulic braking system with which Daimler became rather besotted was the standard fitment to the Freeline, but Daimler very quietly introduced an air braked option in 1952. I cannot discover just how many Freelines had air brakes, but surely the eight that went to Great Yarmouth must have been so fitted. Geoff Hilditch is unremitting in his loathing of the brakes of the Halifax CD650 ‘deckers. He would assuredly not have ordered Freelines with the hated hydraulic system. Incidentally, the Freeline had a high driving position because the spare wheel was located beneath the floor at the front of the chassis. On the subject of the power hydraulic braking, steering, gearchange system, one wonders why Daimler became so wedded to this arrangement. The AEC Regent III had shown the way forward with air operated brakes and gearchange, and power assisted steering was always a possible extra fitment to any chassis if required. Daimler had previously adopted air brakes entirely successfully in its trolleybus chassis from 1936 onwards, so the firm was fully familiar with the system. Power Hydraulic braking was never popular with the operating industry, and apart from the special cases of London Transport’s RMs and Midland Red’s D9s, bus operating engineers elsewhere generally kept well clear. Those chassis that did have the full hydraulic system didn’t sell very well, witness the Dennis Lancet UF, Foden PVD/PVSC and the Tilling-Stevens Express MkII. No doubt other correspondents can think of some more examples.
Roger Cox
19/03/16 – 06:42
G. G. Hillditch did indeed specify air-operated brakes and gears (Daimatic) on FEX 524-5 and AEX 18-20B: he also had fitted Gardner rather than Daimler engines. He detailed the specification process in “Looking At Buses”.
With reference to Stephen Allcroft query re: Freeline vacuum brakes. I think what Jim meant was “Servo (vacuum) assisted hydraulic system” Lockheed called this “continuous flow system” It was also use3d on a lot of early Routemasters.
Lancaster City Transport 1952 Daimler CVG5 Northern Counties B35F
NTF 466 is a Daimler CVG5 with Northern Counties B35F body, built for Lancaster City Transport in 1952. There were three of them, but 467 and 468 were withdrawn in 1958. They had B32R bodies [with door!] when new and 466 was converted in the operator’s workshops to forward entrance layout in 1958. Now restored to her original livery, she carried Trafalgar Blue and White for a time after the ‘shotgun marriage’ of Lancaster and the adjacent Borough Of Morecambe & Heysham in 1974. [The other three Councils involved – Carnforth Urban District, Lancaster Rural District and Lunesdale Rural District – didn’t seem to object anywhere near so much, but Lancaster and Morecambe & Heysham had never ‘got on’.] She was retained for so long after her sisters for a very simple reason. Her 7ft 6in body was narrow enough to fit through the gateway of Lancaster Castle. Most of the place had been used as a prison for many years and this was the last vehicle in the fleet capable of taking the inmates to the prison’s farms. She is seen in the museum in St Helens on 15 August 2012, and the adjacent information board tells us she was known – for fairly obvious reasons – as ‘the prison bus’.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
10/05/15 – 16:28
A beauty, looking good. Would have loved the big old CAV headlamps (if indeed she once had them) but you can’t have everything! I can’t spot the date she actually retired- was it a record? Am I right to wonder if she also got one of those neck-cricking OMO “squint” windows to the cab when the door was moved?
Joe
10/05/15 – 16:49
I believe it was withdrawn in 1977 but kept as a keepsake until the end of LCT in 1993
Paul Turner
11/05/15 – 07:12
I quote from a former employee of LCT, Richard Allen, who supplied me with much information about the company which enabled me to provide a fleet list for this site: “NTF 466 was new as B36R just like NTF 467/8. It was rebuilt to B32F for OPO from 01/58 and in 06/1970 it was upseated to 35 in connection with the prison contract which it worked. It was considered too slow and laborious for OPO when underfloor engined buses were arriving, so 467/8 were never considered for conversion and were sold at the end of 1958”. It doesn’t answer your question, Joe, about windows, but if it did acquire something different it doesn’t sound like it was used for very long!
Dave Towers
11/05/15 – 07:12
Am I right in thinking that Trafalgar blue wasn’t the first choice of the “transport department” – didn’t they plump for a maroon colour with “City of Lancaster” fleetname to start with? I think the blue livery/Lancaster City Council fleetname was the result of a decision to adopt a “house-style” across the Council.
Philip Rushworth
12/05/15 – 06:57
Philip, In the early days of the merged operation, both sides kept their old colours with CITY OF LANCASTER in Tilling style as the fleetname. I have photographs of both backgrounds with that name. Certainly, the Trafalgar blue and white appeared to be the “house style” which came in fairly quickly.
Pete Davies
14/05/15 – 07:19
There was a good article in the February-March issue of ‘Classic Bus’ on the Lancaster-Morecambe & Heysham merger. It is written by Thomas Knowles who was GM of the combined undertaking from the outset and he outlines the problems he had with bringing the two former operations together. It contains plenty of good photographs.
Philip Halstead
This bus was repainted in Trafalgar blue in 1977 as part of the Queen’s Silver Jubilee celebrations and ran a service along Morecambe seafront over that summer its prison bus replacement was a Tiger Cub with single door East Lancs bodywork. A friend who was a management trainee with Lancaster once told me that this bus also survived so long because the prisoners could not overpower the driver in his separate cab!
Chris Hough
12/12/16 – 06:38
As a belated update on this vehicle it was also fitted with a rear facing seat at the front so the guards could watch the prisoners. It has problems with its brakes which is why it is not in current use, however there are plans for it to be repaired and returned to the road for 2017. It is a fine looking vehicle and should be very popular on the free bus running days at the Northwest Transport museum in St Helens.
John P
13/12/16 – 07:15
Do I interpret, from your info, Pete, that the two Rural District Councils ran buses? If so, they’re the first I’ve come across.
Chris Hebbron
13/12/16 – 09:38
No, Chris. Only Lancaster City and Morecambe & Heysham Borough ran buses (trams previously). The two RDCs relied on Ribble and while Carnforth UD had no bus operations, it was the northern terminus of M&H service 73 which was operated jointly with Ribble. This was in addition to Ribble services passing through. I meant in my original copy that the two Councils never ‘got on’. The remarks by each about the other were little short of hatred, very much like the supporters of one football club say about the supporters of their neighbours. Portsmouth and Southampton, Aston Villa and Birmingham City, or Manchester City and Manchester United, for example!
Pete Davies
13/12/16 – 14:16
Sorry, Chris H, I must insist, the replacement for 466 on the prison work was not a Tiger Cub but one of the dual-doorway Leopards, the batch being 101-103 (101-103 UTF). I don’t recall ever seeing a Tiger Cub on prison duties. What I can’t now remember, for sure, is whether one of the Leopards was used consistently, or whether all were used in turn, but if I had to guess, I would say it was the former.
David Call
15/12/16 – 13:55
Pete D, I think you must have rushed that last comment, since I’m sure that if you’d thought about it you would have realised that what you were saying wasn’t quite correct. Service 73 was essentially Ribble service 73, since, throughout the period of service 73’s existence, M & H did not themselves use route numbers. As to whether it being Ribble service 73 also made it M & H service 73, irrespective of M & H not making a point of using route numbers, let alone displaying them on vehicles, I wouldn’t like to say. We’d probably need a contemporary M & H timetable to determine that one. Sometime in the mid-1960s, as part of a Ribble policy of renumbering its Northern area services as 5xx or 6xx, service 73 became service 573. Not long afterwards (I’m not sure exactly how long, though) M & H received its first AEC Swifts, 1-6 (CTJ 101-6E). These were intended to be used OPO from the word go, and one of the routes they went on was Morecambe-Carnforth, upon which they displayed the number 573. Unfortunately, because the rest of the M & H routes were at this time still unnumbered, there was no great incentive for drivers to wind off the 573 display, so M & H’s other OPO routes seemed to become ‘573’! In due course (I think it was around 1970) M & H did introduce its own route numbering system. Interestingly, when the M & H journeys on Morecambe-Carnforth went OPO, the Ribble-operated ones remained crew-operated, and this situation remained for about twelve months. In a company/municipal situation, you would have thought it would be the company which would be the first in with OPO.
David Call
16/12/16 – 06:24
Yes, Mr Call, you are of course correct. Apologies to the readership for any confusion. I’ll go back to sleep!
Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield 1955 Atkinson Mk II (6LW) Northern Counties H35/25CD
Following on from Roger Broughton’s comments on the S.H.M.D. Daimler CVD6 posting I thought it might be appropriate to post this view of the preserved S.H.M.D. Atkinson double-decker in Stalybridge bus station on 30th April 1978. The location still contains many props used for the filming of ‘Yanks’ and the less kind may have commented that Stalybridge had to be modernised to bring it up to the 1940s setting for the film! I encountered some of the filming here by chance. I arrived at Stalybridge on the late train from Leeds (the one-time York – Aberystwyth mail train) and saw a pool of light coming from the town centre. Going over to investigate I found in the bus station the two Keighley-West Yorkshire veterans (JUB 29 and CWX 671) given those Stalybridge and District fleet names and dirtied in a very effective manner. Also on standby was a Grey Cars Regal III which was even less historically accurate. I don’t recall much of this footage escaping the cutting room floor.
Photograph and Copy contributed by David Beilby
14/04/11 – 05:00
Not sure about the Atkinson Mk II heading – surely this was a PD746 or possibly a PD746S, I’ve seen both versions used. And if it was a “Mark II” then what was a “Mark I”? Whatever its official designation it remains a lovely machine and thank heavens that it was preserved for posterity.
Neville Mercer
27/04/11 – 07:28
One-off designs tend to have a short and unsuccessful life due to lack of proof testing that volume production brings but the Atkinson double decker seemed to have a full and active service life with SHMD. This is perhaps because it was built from well proven major component parts, ie a Gardner 6LW engine and I believe a Self-changing Gears semi-automatic gearbox. It is a great pity Atkinson did not produce more double-deckers as they obviously got the package right. Their sortie into single-deck production was largely at the behest of some North West operators who wanted a robust Gardner engined vehicle on the lines of the Bristol MW which was not available to non-BTC companies in the 1950’s. Atkinson supplied the Alpha saloon to LUT, North Western and SHMD at this time. LUT was fairly well wedded to Guy Arabs for its double deck purchases and North Western, requiring low-height vehicles chose the Dennis Loline so apart from the solitary SHMD vehicle there were no other double-deck deliveries from Atkinson. I have ridden on no.70 at Boyle Street and I agree it is a splendid machine. The centre-entrance makes it a doubly unusual vehicle. I understand this came about as the general manager at the time came from Blackpool and was influenced by those splendid Burlingham PD2’s.
Philip Halstead
27/04/11 – 13:19
Thank you David for the extra info regarding other buses readied for the film
Roger Broughton
14/11/11 – 17:43
Arthur Brearley, the HPTD driving instructor during the 1960s, told me that the Atkinson PD746 was seriously considered by Halifax in the 1950s. In the event, further Daimlers arrived.
Roger Cox
29/11/11 – 17:03
When 70 bus Atkinson DD was delivered new it was fitted with a David Brown gearbox not a lot of people know that
Old Bus Driver
01/12/11 – 07:43
I haven’t watched the excellent film “Yanks” for a good while now, but much of it was filmed in Keighley and I think the bus concerned was Keith Jenkinson’s Keighley-West Yorkshire Titan JUB 29 wasn’t it ??
Chris Youhill
01/12/11 – 07:44
Yes it was Keith Jenkinson’s JUB 29 Chris. I remember it spending a short time in West Yorkshire’s Body Shop for a general sprucing up after filming had finished. It was tucked snugly in the back left-hand corner (viewed from Westmoreland Street) and achieved almost ‘local celebrity’ status with some of the older staff during its brief stay. Like you, I’ve never seen the film, but know that quite a lot of the scenes were shot around Keighley and its railway station. That would tie in very nicely with the Keighley-West Yorkshire vehicle, not to mention the splendid engines of the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway.
Brendan Smith
01/12/11 – 07:45
David Brown was a prolific supplier of gearboxes to lorry builders such as the likes of Atkinson, Foden and ERF in the 40’s 50’s and 60’s, usually mated to Gardner engines, so I wouldn’t be surprised that the only Atkinson double decker was so supplied. What I do not know is was David Brown gearboxes as popular with the bus chassis builders of the period?
Eric
01/12/11 – 15:21
About D Brown gearboxes SHMD had 2 Daimler dds with DB gearboxes and they were nice to drive unlike the Atkinson dd which was orible, very slow change and very heavy steering.
Old Bus Driver
04/12/11 – 07:55
Bus manufacturers had a stronger preference for making their own gearboxes than lorry builders, but the users of David Brown gearboxes in PSVs I know of were BMMO (all postwar manual transmission models I think), Tilling-Stevens, Atkinson (Alpha), Bristol (SC4LK) and Daimler (CSG). The Daimler CSG was overtaken by events, soon being replaced by the CCG with Guy transmission when Daimler and Guy came under common control.
Peter Williamson
05/12/11 – 06:40
Thank you for that info. Peter. Interesting to note that of the five chassis makes/models you list three of them would have been fitted with Gardner engines. What would be the normal engine choice for the Tilling-Stevens?
Eric
05/12/11 – 16:46
The immediate post-war Tilling-Stevens Express models certainly had David Brown gearboxes and those I know of had Gardner 5LW or 6LW engines. The majority of post-war Expresses went to Hong Kong. They were sound chassis and these engines/gearboxes gave them great reliability. (One, I believe, has survived). Were that other chassis builders of the time – Crossley in particular, had done the same.
Chris Hebbron
06/12/11 – 06:39
The Bristol SU chassis also utilised a David Brown (5-speed) gearbox, but for some reason Bristol turned to Turner (no pun intended!) for gearboxes on the LH. Funny how to many of us, David Brown gearboxes seem more associated with lorries than buses, as Eric says. It’s interesting to learn that BMMO and Tilling-Stevens also used them. As an aside, when David Brown purchased Aston Martin many years ago, the letters DB were used on consecutive new models over the years, to denote the ownership.
Brendan Smith
08/12/11 – 06:38
The alternative to Gardner engines in postwar Tilling-Stevens models was Meadows. The survivor, GOU 732 from memory, originally had a Meadows engine but now has a Gardner 6LW.
Peter Williamson
08/12/11 – 15:35
Following on from my post above, for what it’s worth, here’s a link to the Hong Kong Tilling-Stevens Express survivor: //cmchk.no-ip.org/ If memory serves me, I believe that Hong Kong had the largest fleet, well over 100, of post-war Tilling-Stevens in the world and they lasted over 20 years in service.
Chris Hebbron
16/04/12 – 07:38
So pleased to read about the Atkinson 70. Took me into Manchester(Schooldays) daily when on the splendid fast 125 Glossop Hyde Manchester limited stop service in the fifties!. I remember drivers struggling with the gear box when it first came into service. A lovely vehicle to ride on but never up to the speed of the CVD6 vehicles 23-24-25 that worked the 125 so regularly. Great days – SHMD was transport at its best – and yes – we always called it “the Joint Board”
Roger Chadwick
07/10/12 – 08:32
I came across the ‘S.H.M.D. No.70’ correspondence purely by chance. I travelled on the Atkinson bus in the mid-60s and remember its sluggish performance compared to that of the six, similarly-bodied, Daimlers bought by S.H.M.D. whose last two, open-platform, Daimler doubler-deckers-dating from 1959-seem to have been unpopular with drivers because of their ‘awkward’ (David Brown) gearboxes: one of them was heard to say that you could ‘have a meal’ in the time that it took to make a gear change. Given the hilly nature of the S.H.M.D.’s operating area, one wonders how such apparent ‘lemons’ came to be bought at a time when the Joint Board was taking its first Leyland PD2s that seemed to take very steep routes in their stride (unlike those PD2s operated by Manchester on shared routes). Lancashire United bought a 1959 Guy Arab (now preserved) which also had a David Brown gearbox: enthusiasts who test-drove this bus on a ‘flat’ circuit found the ‘box ‘tricky’ when selecting gears but were otherwise quite satisfied with it.
John Hardman
07/10/12 – 11:29
Philip Halstead said that the Atkinson single decker was designed and built at the behest of “some” North West operators. It was more specific than that. North Western Road Car was, to say the least, miffed to find itself remaining under the BET banner after the 1947 Transport Act which nationalised the Tilling companies in whose company NW, a dedicated Bristol user, felt at home. With the Act due to become law in 1948, and aware of long delivery times, NW ordered 122 Bristol single deckers before the terms of the Act restricted Bristol purchases to the nationalised Tilling Group. The last of these were delivered in 1950. Double deckers were in the minority in the fleet and NW was seemingly happy with its PD1 and PD2 purchases in the late 1940s and plans to re-body its 1938/9 K5Gs and austerity Guy Arabs with Northern Coach Builders bodies, chosen because a senior NCB manager was ex-Eastern Coach Works. A spanner was thrown in the works when NCB suddenly closed on the death of its owner and the re-bodying contract passed to Willowbrook. Much of the double decker territory was relatively flat around Stockport, Manchester and out on the Cheshire Plain. The singles however had to tackle parts of the Pennines and the Peak District and the Gardner powerplant was deemed necessary. The problem was the favoured Gardner engine was only available powering products from Coventry, Wolverhampton Sandbach and Guildford – none of which suited. A massive rebodying programme of the pre war Bristol singles was implemented and what were effectively “new” Bristols continued to appear until 1952 after which further complex body swapping went on well into the late 1950s. In 1949 Atkinsons were approached by NW Chief Engineer H Stuart Driver and they agreed to build a single decker to NW’s “proxy Bristol” requirements. The first two with Weymann bodies arrived in 1951 and were compared to two Leyland/Weymann Olympics. Whilst they had rear entrances, compared to the Leylands’ front entrance, everything else was vastly in their favour. A further 14 followed in 1953, the last two were bodied by Willowbrook as “lightweight” vehicles with single rear wheels, the last had a 4 cylinder Gardner engine in place of the 5LW but was found to be unsatisfactory. An order for 100 5LW powered lightweights was placed but this was countermanded by the BET main board. Stuart Driver made a presentation to the BET main board showing the benefits of the Atkinson against the BET now preferred Leyland Royal Tiger. His presentation was rejected. He caught the first train back to Stockport, cleared his desk and walked out. NW, for better or worse got Royal Tigers and later Tiger Cubs. The Atkinsons gave around 13/14 years service and, had they been front entrance, would have lasted longer in OMO service. I rode on these to school many times and they were quick, though the rear entrance with steep steps didn’t help loading and unloading. Meanwhile LUT had been watching developments between NW and Atkinsons and ordered vehicles which were to be delivered in 1952 with front entrance bodies on 6 and centre entrance bodies on 4. Between 1952 and 1955 LUT amassed no less than 40 of the type. SHMD was a dedicated Thorneycroft user. When production of Thorneycroft buses ceased, their allegiance changed to Daimler. They bought a Freeline single decker in 1952 fitted with a centre entrance standee 60 passenger capacity body. The body was deemed a success, the chassis wasn’t, so follow on orders for the body were placed on Atkinson chassis. The deliveries between 1953 and 1956 were centre entrance, the last in 1959 were front entrance but were arranged with 34 seats and a standee area for 26. A total of 7 single deckers and the double decker were purchased by SHMD, the double decker being an attempt to find an alternative to the Daimler chassis then dominating the double decker fleet. When Frank Brimelow took over as SHMD General manager in 1956 he took two batches of PD2s. These had fully rated 0.600 engines – the reason they outperformed their Manchester counterparts which, under Albert Neal’s parsimonious pursuit of economies, de-rated his engines to 100bhp. Had NW got its way, had the double decker been built for a more substantial operator, had the prototype not been with an oddball body layout, had the Bamber Bridge facility been larger, had ifs and ands been pots and pans……………you know what I mean.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/10/12 – 13:35
During the brief period when I was a Schedules Clerk at SELNEC in the early 70’s, I worked with a chap called Peter Caunt who had worked at North Western, both in the offices and as a driver. In his inimitably enthusiastic manner he recalled driving the Atkinsons, which he referred to as the ‘fastest coal lorries in the north’. He said they were very quick – even more so than the Reliances – but that they had very heavy steering and gearchanges making them hard work for a full shift unless you were built like Goliath. The accelerator pedal was of the organ type, which at only low revs had already reached a horizontal aspect. Pressing down any further caused the pedal to point downwards towards its front end causing great discomfort to one’s ankle – especially on a long hill climb. Drivers resorted to attaching wooden wedges to the pedal to alleviate the problem. I remember him telling me how one of them had suffered a gearbox failure and an ‘engineering team’ was despatched by the manufacturer to replace it. When they turned up they were mistaken for gypsies and almost thrown off the premises. ‘A right pair of toe-rags’, Peter quoted, they were not allowed into the works, so the bus was shunted into the yard and they did the entire job under the crudest of conditions using just brute strength and with the meagerest of tools. Years later (1984) he went on to write his bus driving memoirs in ‘North Western – A Driver’s Reminiscences’, to which I have referred to jog my memory. It still turns up regularly on bookstalls at rallies.
John Stringer
09/04/13 – 17:47
I was a fitter at North Western at Stockport for 10 years. The Atkinson Alphas had 5HLW Gardners and we had some with 6HLW Gardners these all had Atkinsons own gearboxes (copy of D Brown), not very good. We had two light weight Alphas with single rear wheels these had 5HLW Gardners and genuine David Brown gearboxes.
Geoff Burgess
03/02/16 – 14:39
Regarding SHMD 70 Atky it was a great bus to drive. The steering was very heavy indeed. It was used for the express route from Manchester where it left and did not stop until it was in our area. The shift was I think 4 times per evening and everyone (just once fell for it) though it was a good payer but in reality it was a full duty. Once it got going it Flew!! Stopping was a concern.!! It used to terminate in Carrbrook I think (a long time ago so could be wrong). Happy day’s.
Philip Worley
04/02/16 – 13:25
As many readers of these columns will be aware, this was the only double decker Atkinson ever built, and according to various sources this was one of the reasons they declined an invitation to produce a clone of the Daimler Fleetline. That clone became the Dennis Dominator. UMA 370 managed to join the ranks of the preserved, and we see her in the GM Museum at Boyle Street on 19 August 2012. Conditions there were a little cramped, to say the least, at the time of my visit. Still, I did capture a view of the Crest.
Pete Davies
04/02/16 – 16:54
As many people will be aware, the “knight” radiator mascot from this vehicle was stolen from the Boyle St museum recently. It is believed to be unique, so if anybody notices it anywhere please get in touch with the GMTS website. Incidentally, does anybody know why Atkinson put a knight motif on it in the first place? I’ve always suspected that they were sort of imitating Guy’s Indian chief mascot.
Neville Mercer
05/02/16 – 06:38
The knight motif was an allusion to the expression “Knights of the Road”, a term that was once, but emphatically not nowadays, applied to the lorry driving fraternity.
Roger Cox
06/02/16 – 06:55
Oh, Roger! There are, as we all know, some bad eggs in the bus industry as well, but the professional truck driver is several rungs further up the ladder of ‘knighthood’ than the average white van man . . .
Pete Davies
06/02/16 – 06:55
In the 1960s Atkinson produced a range of lorries with ‘Knight’ in the name – Black Knight, Gold Knight and Silver Knight spring to mind – and appropriate badges were often seen attached to the radiators. This has triggered memories of W J Riding’s immaculate fleet of dark blue and silver-grey Atkinson lorries, which were a familiar sight on the roads at that time.
Brendan Smith
14/07/17 – 07:34
18 months on; did the missing mascot ever turn up? Has anyone tried to make ‘a reasonable facsimile’ of it,using images to work from?
John Hardman
30/10/19 – 06:59
This bus now has a matching set of recessed front wheel centres for the first time since 1971. A swap of wheels at Stalybridge with the just restored 70 and the then withdrawn Daimler 61 has been reversed. The Atkinson had recessed centres to allow Atkinson aluminium hub covers. Sadly still no sign of the Knights Head rad badge.
Neil Kenworthy
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
30/05/21 – 06:56
During these damp May days, I have come across this photo taken at Blackpool Rally on August 21 1977. I have a scribbled note that it was owned by GMPTE at the time.
Hebble Motor Services 1962 AEC Regent V Northern Counties H65F
These two Regent Vs of Hebble are in Halifax bus station the one on the left is five years older with a Weymann Orion body there is a better colour shot of one of these buses here. I am not sure what the registration is of the one on the left as it seems to have fallen off.
one on left LJX 198 – Hebble
Anonymous
01/07/14 – 06:45
No, I’m afraid the one on the left is not LJX 198 – that reg belongs to a front-entrance Regent V now preserved. I think this batch of rear-entrance Regent Vs were registered GJX —.
Yorkshire Woollen District 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Northern Counties H39/31F
Yorkshire Woollen was fundamentally a Leyland operator, apart from a few Guy Arabs in the early post war years. The first YWD Regent Vs appeared when ten Metro Cammell H39/31F bodied buses of the LD3RA type were delivered in 1958, to be followed by fifteen more in 1959, but these were of the 2LD3RA variety. The following year saw the arrival of another nine, still with Metro Cammell bodies, but the chassis was now the 2D3RA. Early in 1961 came a further ten, FHD 116 to 125, with the original fleet numbers 842 to 851, but these had the much superior Northern Counties bodywork of similar capacity. By 1966, with fleet numbers approaching 1000, the fleet was renumbered, and the Northern Counties batch became 89 to 98 inclusive. Photographed in August 1970, Yorkshire Woollen Regent V FHD 121, now carrying the number 94 is seen in Bradford in the company of others of its kind operated by Bradford Corporation. By this time, in NBC ownership, this nine years old bus is beginning to look rather shabby at the front end.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
23/06/20 – 06:41
It may be worse for wear at the front but a plus point is that it has reverted to a chrome radiator surround. Previous models of this batch prior to the cream band addition (mid sixties?) had the radiator surround painted red.
John Blackburn
24/06/20 – 06:29
Is this bus unusual in having the original YORKSHIRE signage in pre-NBC style, or was this common to the fleet and unique in NBC?
Chris Hebbron
25/06/20 – 07:16
Taken in August 1970 this picture would predate the corporate identity that didn’t begin to appear on buses until 1972
Douglas Corporation 1947 AEC Regent III RT Northern Counties H30/25R
This is a RT type Regent as its chassis number was O961 186 a provincial Regent III would have a chassis number beginning O9612 000 the 2 stood for series 2. A good way to tell an RT from a Provincial Regent is a more or less flat bonnet top with “T” handles on the bonnet side. The RT also had a more rounder shaped front mudguards that allowed you to see the spring hanger on the drivers side. Douglas Corporation only had two RT type Regents the other four that were delivered in 1947 were of the Provincial type. This bus was in service with Douglas Corporation for 24 years being withdrawn in 1971 not sure if it went for scrap or preservation being a bit of a rarity.
16/11/15 – 10:16
Sadly, after being withdrawn ‘for use as a source of spares’, both 54 and 55 were sent to a local scrap deader and dismantled. The next batch, 56-59 was subsequently sent to the same scrapyard, but 56 and 58 were sold on for further use. 58 survives at the Jurby Transport Museum, but in an unrestored state.
M Jones
30/11/16 – 07:05
Apart from the preserved example at Whythall do any CAMELS survive?
Charlie Watson
11/12/17 – 07:35
I know this is slightly off topic but does anyone know the following – the differences between Douglas Corporation bus routes 11, 12 and 16, 17, 18 and 19? I know 11 and 12 ran from the Bus Station to Nobles Park and the 18 to Willaston but via which roads?
Paul Mason
12/12/17 – 08:37
In 1962 (I think it was!) the 18 set out via Victoria Street, Prospect Hill, Bucks Road and Woodbourne Road. After that I have no idea as we alighted at Woodbourne Road/Derby Road. I believe this route was previously served mainly by the 10, which was destined “Upper Douglas via Bucks Road”.
Stephen Ford
01/02/18 – 07:07
Paul, I’ve listings of DCT routes for 1948, 1950, and 1957 – the only year in which 11/12/16/17/18/19 are all running is 1950 . . . 10: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – York Road 11: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – York Road – Broadway – Harris Promenade (Church Road) [summer] 12: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – York Road – Noble’s Park 16: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – St Ninian’s 17: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – Thorny Road – Tromode [service ran outside Douglas Corporation boundary into “Extended Area”, which required road service licences] 18: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – St Ninian’s – Willaston 19: Lord St – North Quay – Peel Road – Pulrose . . . so this service was not related to the Bucks Road group.
Douglas Corporation 1947 AEC Regent III O961/2 Northern Counties H30/26R
A nice shot of a very early AEC Regent III taken on the Isle of Man about 1964/5. The Northern Counties bodywork that Douglas Corporation seemed to favour is quite obvious by the front upper deck. An interesting bit of information I came up with whilst researching Douglas Corporation was from Peter Goulds very informative website was that buses which operated within the borough boundary did not require road tax, if the route took it outside the boundary then it did. Needless to say they only had enough buses taxed to do the necessary routes and the letters “EA” which stood for “Extended Area” accompanied the fleet number. With a change of rules in 1964 no Douglas Corporation bus needed road tax to operate. Now I know that the Isle of Man had and still have there own rules and regulations, but it got me thinking what the regulations were for the rest of the UK with regards road tax, MOTs and insurance. If you know please leave a comment
16/11/15 – 10:22
Something I have noticed but has not been commented on or explained is that DCT 56-59 (HMN 687-690) delivered in 1947, 60-63 (JMN 724-727) delivered in 1948 and 64-65 (KMN 835-836) delivered in 1949 had consecutive chassis and body numbers and were virtually identical, whereas the rest of the 1949 delivery, 66-71 (KMN 837-842) had much higher batches of chassis and body numbers, and were significantly different in outward appearance (gasket glazed indicators) and internal layout (one fewer seat on lower deck to create more luggage space). Was a batch of 10 chassis sent to Northern Counties in 1947, and when were the later deliveries bodied?
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Potteries Motor Traction 1952 AEC Regent III 9613A Northern Counties H32/26R
This is a rather nice looking Northern Counties bodied Regent III the front of the upper deck looks a bit Massey-ish but the flared skirt just adds that little extra touch. PMT had a very varied fleet one reason for this was that when they took over a rival operator they absorbed their vehicles into their own fleet. In 1951 PMT took over five companies and 150 vehicles I do not think that REH 500 fleet number H500 was one of them. REH 500 was a Daimler CLG5 I have not come across many of those in my researching, mind you, they only had the one, the L by the way stood for lightweight. With regards Daimler and PMT they were the largest operator of the Roadliner having almost seventy of them, but that is another sad story which should really be told with a photo of a PMT Roadliner above it, unfortunately I do not have one.
A full list of Regent III and Daimler codes can be seen here.
For Daimler CLG5 see my comment under the heading of Manchester Daimler NNB 231. PMT’s REH 500 was one of the two prototypes. It also carried the prototype MCW Orion body and appeared at the 1952 Commercial Motor Show.
Peter Williamson
I also seem to recollect that PMT had the first 30′ Orion on a PD3 – which was unique in having six short bays (of same size as on 27′ models) rather than the standard five longer bays.
David Oldfield
These were a splendid vehicle they gave a nice comfortable ride and were quite quick I have driven this vehicle and also been a conductor on this vehicle.
Michael Crofts
This vehicle was one of a batch of twelve, ordered in 1951 jointly by two independents, Stoke Motors and Thomas Tilstone with a view to a merger of the two businesses. It is written that this prospect alarmed PMT so much that they made a more than generous offer to the proprietors, hence a batch of Regents delivered to a fleet not known hitherto for AEC purchases, although they became common later with Reliances.
Chris Barker
Also worthy of note the AEC Regents above had the air cleaner from the engine attached by pipe work to the upper saloon which is why the front window pillar is so thick and this kept the air in the saloon clear of cigarette smoke, the ceiling looked like a crib board.
