Tag: Nottingham City Transport

Nottingham City Transport – Daimler Fleetline – 62 NAU – 62


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Nottingham City Transport
1962
Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX
Park Royal H77F

October 2012 saw the 50th anniversary of the introduction of rear engined buses by Nottingham City Transport. The subject of the image is a Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX, fleet number 62, registration number 62 NAU. It had a Park Royal H77F body. It was delivered new to NCT on 12.12.62 and entered service on 18.12.62. It is seen here at the Farnborough Road/Pastures Avenue, Clifton Estate, terminus of service 68 when new and is loading passengers for a journey to Broad Marsh Bus Station in Nottingham via Clifton Bridge (service 68 journeys operated by South Notts and West Bridgford UDC ran via Trent Bridge). The large Daimler badges with which 62 and others of the batch (nos 46 to 63) were fitted when delivered were quickly removed and replaced by a Daimler scroll, as there was an air intake at this location and the large badge partially obscured this. This year also saw, on 29th October, the 60th anniversary of the introduction of the joint service operated by NCT, South Notts and WBUDC to Clifton Estate, although the 68 was not introduced until 1956 when the initial development of the estate was nearing completion.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Elliott

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

04/12/12 – 15:44

50 NAU_lr

With reference to the posting above of 62 NAU when new, here is a view of one of her sisters, 50 NAU, towards the end of her working life. She is seen peering out of the doorway of the Burwell & District depot in Burwell on 25 August 1978. Nottingham’s livery always was one of the smarter ones and the view of 62 does it credit.

Pete Davies

04/12/12 – 16:58

This is a good example of a well applied livery helping to ease the rather brutal lines of the ‘Orion’ derived body design. The tasteful layout of the fleet name and the red wheels set off the green very well. I remember one of this batch coming to Rochdale to be shown to the Transport Committee in the Autumn of 1962. It was probably brand new and was parked outside the Town Hall along with the light blue AEC Renown demonstrator and the Leyland Atlantean demonstrator in Maidstone & District style green and cream. It was just after the 1962 Commercial Motor Show at which the Renown made its debut. Rochdale chose the Fleetline for its next double deck purchases.

Philip Halstead

05/12/12 – 07:39

Interestingly in Pete’s picture 50 NAU has a much more modern windscreen and front panel than 62 yet has retained, or had re-applied, the large Daimler badge.

Eric Bawden

05/12/12 – 07:40

As has been mentioned before on this site, Northern General allowed their subsidiaries a certain amount of independence when it came to vehicle buying and spec. Between 1960 and 62 Percy Main acquired 25 Leyland PDR1/1 Atlanteans, ‘9 Metro Cammell and 16 Roe’ but then while most of the rest of NGT were still ordering Leyland’s Percy Main switched to CRG6LX Daimler Fleetlines. Between 1963 and 68 they took delivery of 35 in total, the first two batches of 10 and 5 were MCW’s and the remaining 20 arrived in three batches of 7 – 3 and 10 and were all Alexander bodied. I could be wrong about this, but I believe orders for more were cancelled when NBC came into being, but from my experience of driving both the Fleetline was a far superior vehicle to the Atlantean, but like the AEC Reliance, the Bristol REL and the FRM Routemaster they didn’t fit into NBC and BL’s ‘master plan’

Ronnie Hoye

05/12/12 – 08:03

50 NAU was fitted with the 1964 pattern windscreen and dash arrangement following accident damage circa 1968/69. From memory it ran off the road on Carlton Hill and hit a house. At the time of the accident it was allocated to Bilborough Depot and was working a ‘works special’.

Michael Elliott

05/12/12 – 09:19

Peter mentioned he was sure someone would comment upon the newer front end on the Burwell vehicle. It looks to me like a ‘Manchester’ lower panel, as Birmingham had on some of theirs towards the end of 1966, but I had no idea why it should have been treated. Thank you, Michael, for enlightening us.

Ronnie, interesting comment about the freedom of operation in the NGT group. I suppose it is hardly surprising that the same degree of freedom seems to have filtered throughout what is now the ‘Go Ahead’ group. There has been discussion on this site in the past about the NBC and BL ‘master plan’, and we all know what happened to both!

Pete Davies

05/12/12 – 10:40

Philip, slightly off topic but was it my imagination that the lower deck window line on all of Rochdale’s Fleetlines was higher than normal or were the wheels smaller?
Compare www.flickr.com/
with www.sct61,org.uk/
Back to Nottingham, I often wonder if the department’s development of their own unique body style which, like the various developments or not were at least different and interesting to look at, was a reaction to the bland Orionism of early rear engined bodies or just a determination to be different.

Phil Blinkhorn

05/12/12 – 10:57

Pete, that’s not a Manchester panel, see www.sct61.org.uk/ for the differences

Phil Blinkhorn

05/12/12 – 11:55

Thank you, Phil B

Pete Davies

05/12/12 – 17:54

The Daimler badge fitted to 50 NAU was not the original `large` one, but the shorter version, common on most Fleetlines.
I found the appropriate part no. in the Fleetline parts list and ordered 4 from the local BL parts dealer, they duly arrived, price around £18 + VAT and were fitted to 50/53/61/3 NAU.
By the time 56 NAU arrived at Burwell, (via Ensign) I had secured a supply of the original `longer` badges that had been supplied to Walsall Corporation, but were too long to fit on the rounded front panels of their `short` Fleetlines.
I won`t reveal how much I paid, but it was less than £18 each! (I still have one wrapped in the original VERY sticky waxed paper)

Jim Neale

05/12/12 – 17:55

To answer Phil on the Rochdale Fleetlines, yes you are right they did have the lower saloon window line about a foot higher than normal. The reason was that despite the Fleetline having a drop-centre rear axle, Rochdale adopted a two step entrance with a high floor line throughout the lower saloon. In my view this had two negative affects. Firstly, it made the buses look very ungainly from a three-quarter front view and secondly, as the lower driving position was retained it put the driver in a very intimidating low position against boarding passengers. This must have been an especially uncomfortable position for drivers when later on these buses were used for opo with fare paying passengers towering above them. To me these were some of the ugliest buses ever built and massive contrast to the previous Regent V’s.

Philip Halstead

06/12/12 – 07:12

Thanks Philip. I always thought they were odd. I used to see them regularly in the 1960s and 1970s but was normally driving past them, so couldn’t study them closely, and I never rode on one.
They certainly were ungainly looking – not helped by the acres of cream paint, the SELNEC livery, for once did help a bit.

Phil Blinkhorn

06/12/12 – 11:46

Picking up the thread of Philip H’s comments on bad design. The safest layout for stairs on any type of double decker are those were you ascend towards the front of the vehicle. Worst that can happen if the driver anchors up sharply is that anyone on the stairs will either fall forwards if they’re going up, or end up on their backside if coming down, but it’s unlikely they will end up in a heap at the bottom. That said, for some reason know best to whoever ordered them, the second batch of MCW Daimler Fleetline’s delivered to Percy Main JFT 276/80, had the stairs going the other way, in the same case scenario people on the stairs will fall backwards or go head first base over apex, but the only way they can go is in the direction of down. As well as in my opinion being dangerous, the layout also reduced the seating capacity by three, so a bad idea all round I would have thought

Ronnie Hoye

03/10/20 – 10:34

I seem to remember that, when still quite new, 62 NAU became “The Pork Farms bus”, with all advertising space (including LT-style adverts flanking the destination screen) devoted to the local Pork Pie manufacturer. Either this one or 63 carried a green/cream livery applied differently for a while – green lower panels/between deck panels and cream window surrounds and roof, if my memory serves me correctly.

I have just searched for on-line photos of 63 NAU, and it was this one that had the different (experimental?) livery application – proved by a Roy Marshall picture in the Transport Library.

Terry Walker

Nottingham City Transport – Daimler CWA6 – DKY 496 – 47


Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Nottingham City transport
1945
Daimler CWA6
Duple UL27/28R

Some months ago, June 2011 to be precise, there was a question on the Q&As page from Stephen Ford about the ex Bradford lowbridge utilities acquired by Nottingham Corporation Transport for the then new Clifton Estate services.
I have now come across the above photograph of 47 (DKY 496) at a somewhat embryonic Clifton Estate. I have been told that the shot is likely to be Green Lane, Clifton but I can not be certain.
One odd coincidence is that the Daimler utilities were NCT numbered 44-50, the same fleet numbers reappeared on Clifton services a few years later, 44/5 on 1959 Metro Cammell PD2s and 46-50 on 1962/3 Park Royal Daimler Fleetlines. If you are interested you can view Stephens original question at this link.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

29/12/11 – 09:29

Re John Whitakers comment to Stephens original question Pigtroughs and the ‘Flat’ part (roof?) may be understandable, but why the ‘Harriet’ part?

Chris Hebbron

29/12/11 – 14:58

Nice photo of one of my favourite batch of Bradford buses! Many thanks.
I honestly do not know where “Harriets” comes from Chris, but I think it was just a Bradford “rudery”, one of many which former mill workers such as myself tried valiantly to disregard!

John Whitaker

29/12/11 – 17:58

Doncaster had some highbridge Weymann CWA6’s which looked a bit uncurved like this and lasted much longer – ’43 -‘ 58 – and seemed indestructible, if I recall, rather agricultural.

Joe

30/12/11 – 07:27

Bradford had highbridge CWA6s too, Joe, and these lasted until 1958, until replaced by 25 ex London RTs.The lowbridge ones were sold earlier, as there was no need for lowbridge buses in the city. Also sold by 1953 were 467, the solitary lowbridge Arab 1, 474/475, 2 Weymann highbridge Arabs, and 6 Massey bodied CWG5 Daimlers, 468 -473. 467 was retained as a “school bus” , BCPTs term for a driver trainer.
As a schoolboy, I loved the flat Harriets so much because they were so different. I always had a fascination for old and decrepitly scruffy buses as they contrasted so vividly with the “posher” stock.
I defer from going into further detail regarding the meaning of the phrase,except to say it was not graciously received if directed towards young ladies!
I never used the term myself!

John Whitaker

30/12/11 – 07:31

Probably Green Lane, but could be either the junction with Southchurch Drive (in the centre of the estate) – route 61 terminus, or with Farnborough Road on the south eastern perimeter, which, I think, was the original terminus of the 61A (later extended to Glenloch Drive). Unfortunately, it is not quite possible to read the route number on the combined blind. “Clifton Estate” is just about legible, and my impression is that the number is too long for the simple 61, so could be 61A. Clifton was a council estate re-housing occupants from slum-clearance property in the city. Car ownership was low, and a decent bus service was indispensable from day 1. For a year or two the termini of the progressively extended services were building site locations – probably a big help to the construction workers too!

Stephen Ford

30/12/11 – 08:58

As requested a closer view of DKY 496 minus the bus stop

DKY 496_closeup

30/12/11 – 11:18

OK – I retract that. From the closer view it is very clearly 61.

DKY 496_dest

Stephen Ford

09/01/12 – 07:11

The picture was taken at the original Farnborough Road terminus. The vehicle having turned round at the Southchurch Drive junction. This stop was the site of the temporary wooden St Francis Church building. The Daimlers were delivered to Nottingham in BCT blue but were repainted before entering service.

Ray Pettit

03/05/12 – 08:04

Bus 47 entered service with NCT in January 1953 (we moved to Clifton on 12th January 1953). I don’t think that this is at the original terminus at the north junction of Farnborough Road with Southchurch Drive as the Wimpey site huts situated at this location are not there (there was housing on the opposite side of the road)and the lie of the land looks wrong. Service 61 was extended along Southchurch Drive to its junction with Rivergreen from 28th June 1953 and further along Southchurch Drive to Ruddington Road (later renamed Green Lane) from 7th March 1954. Service 61A, which is partially visible on the close up of 47’s destination blind, commenced operation from 4th April 1954. Initially the 61A only ran Monday to Friday peaks and on Saturday.
The location of 47 isn’t the 61A terminus at Farnborough Road/Ruddington Road as there was already some housing at this location when the service started and Ruddington Road isn’t visible in the background. Likewise,I’d rule out Southchurch Drive/Ruddington Road as Ruddington Road isn’t visible in the background (construction of what became known as ‘the top shops’ – at least in where we lived in Clifton – didn’t start until 1954/55). I’d go with the location being Southchurch Drive/Rivergreen. The land at the side of 47 was subsequently occupied by the Clifton Methodist Church and the rising ground in the background would also be consistent with this location.
Service 61 started operation on Wednesday 29th October 1952 after a process via the East Midland Traffic Commissioner that started in September 1951. The process was often acrimonious and subject to unsuccessful appeals to the Minister of Transport by all parties when Road Service Licences were granted at a hearing on 24th September 1952 to NCT, WBUDC and South Notts. So this October will see the 60th anniversary of bus services to Clifton Estate starting.

Michael Elliott

24/10/13 – 08:03

The location of your photograph is Southchurch Drive Green Lane Glapton Woods Whitegate Woods are in the background the woods are on a hill and yet with no houses yet built this would stand out.

Dean Smith

06/08/16 – 06:24

I remember crashes and break-downs coming home from school at Attenborough up the Derby Road Hill to the stop before Canning Circus 1954 ’til 1959. What number bus would that be?
Then going to Mundella Grammar School for a year (1960), don’t remember the bus for that- anyone know?
I think it was a No. 45 bus that took me to Margaret Glen Bott School at Woollaton for the next 4 years.
After that, it was Clifton Hall Girl’s Grammar School- anyone know what bus that would be from Western Terrace just in the Park Estate (knocked down now!!! boo hoo) to Clifton !965-67?
I am writing my memories down so I would be glad if you could pass me on to anyone who is interested in those areas at that time.
Thank you very much, I include my e-mail address, just in case I might receive some helpful information. Like how long did the Park Estate use a horse and cart. I set up a petition to save the horse from redundancy. It was in the papers.

Pippa Robins

07/08/16 – 07:03

Hello Pippa, Assuming these were all ordinary service buses and not school specials, this would be the scenario:
1. Attenborough to/from Canning Circus would be by Barton’s (red buses). There were a number of route numbers (and routes). The most usual route taken by the 3, 5, 5B, 10 or 11 was Attenborough Lane, Depot Corner, Beeston Square, Broadgate (or Queens Road), University Boulevard (or Beeston Lane through the University campus), Gregory Street, Church Street, Lenton Boulevard and Derby Road. The 5X went along the Chilwell by-pass and Queens Road, missing Beeston Square, but otherwise as above. The 5, 5B and 5X were usually double deckers, the others always single deckers.
2. Mundella was near Trent Bridge, and would almost certainly have been a 43 trolleybus from the stop at the top of Alfreton Road – they ran about every 3 minutes throughout the day. Down to the Old Market Square, then Wheeler Gate, Albert Street, Lister Gate (now pedestrianised), Carrington Street past the Midland station, and Arkwright Street (also now pedestrianised), terminating at the Embankment, although I think Muskham Street – the last stop before the terminus was slightly nearer to Mundella.
3. Margaret Glen Bott was on Sutton Passeys Crescent, Wollaton Park estate, and a 45 trolleybus from the Canning Circus stop on Derby Road sounds right, although a bit less frequent than the 39 trolleybus from the Canning Circus stop on Ilkeston Road.
4. Finally, Clifton Hall Girls Grammar. There were several services to Clifton estate (61, 61A, 66, 67 and 68) run jointly by Nottingham City Transport (green buses) – via the new Clifton Bridge opened in 1958, or West Bridgford UDC (brown buses) and South Notts (dark blue buses) – via Trent Bridge and Wilford village. These started from Broad Marsh bus station, but all of them turned into the housing estate at Farnborough Road, quite a long way before reaching Clifton Hall. You would get a good half mile closer by using a South Notts bus heading out to Gotham and Loughborough. This started at Huntingdon Street bus station and by passed the estate, continuing straight along Clifton Lane past the bottom of the drive to Clifton Hall. From Canning Circus, you would take a 43 trolleybus, changing either at Broad Marsh for the joint service, or Trent Bridge terminus for the Loughborough bus, or possibly a 39 to the Central Market, King Edward Street, for Huntingdon Street bus station.
For more general memories, you might like to try the www.nottstalgia.com  forum.

Stephen Ford

Nottingham City Transport – AEC Regent III – KTV 335 – 335

Nottingham City Transport AEC Regent III

Nottingham City Transport
1949
AEC Regent III
Roberts H56R

This is an AEC Regent III of Nottingham City Transport, body by Charles Roberts of Wakefield. The location is Nottingham Old Market Square. This series were purchased (I think) about 1948/9 and ran until the mid/late 1960s. (Latterly they were renumbered into the 400 series I believe). As built they had heavy traffic indicator arms that dropped back into their recesses after use with a satisfying thud. In the earliest days I can remember (1951-54) they monopolised the three Nuthall Road routes (1, 7 and 22) which served our area. These started from the steep incline of Hanley Street, round the back of the Theatre Royal, and the buses were provided with a stout metal wedge on a chain, which was jammed under the front off-side wheel while standing there, to avoid accidents.

Photograph and copy contributed by S Ford

28/11/11 – 09:17

My favourite buses. We lived near the No. 1 terminus in Aspley, and were well served by the earlier of these (301 to 324) for many years.

Harold Blythe

28/11/11 – 10:47

Hi Harold. So you were somewhere in the Rosslyn Drive area? As a little lad, I lived in a prefab on Aslockton Drive, so we always boarded at Bar Lane (just after the No. 1 had swung right out of Melbourne Road. Do you remember that there was a time clock at this stop, and conductors had to “clock in” before the bus could proceed? If they were a bit early, they would rattle the handle up and down, trying to make the clock jump forward a minute. I seem to remember the Roberts were later rather disfigured internally by having the fluted “jelly-mould” light fittings removed, leaving naked bulbs instead.

Stephen Ford

29/11/11 – 09:39

Stephen, there was also the time clock on Mansfield Rd.,where amongst other buses the 69 or 52 from Arnold would pull up at on our route in to the City from my grand parents house on High St., seems such a long time ago now.

Roger Broughton

29/11/11 – 15:05

Hi Stephen. We lived on Eltham Drive and later moved to Valley Road at Sherwood. There was a similar clock at the Valley Road/Hucknall Road junction, used by the 2, 6, 17, 18 & 28 routes. Would you have a photo of one of those buses on the 1 route or one of the routes I have just mentioned please? Yes, I think you are right about the lampshades.

Harold Blythe

29/11/11 – 16:09

Roger and Harold, Regarding the time clocks, there was quite a number of them. They were on inward journeys to “City” and noted in the timetables, usually as the only intermediate timing point. From my 1971 timetable, they were at Villiers Road (Mansfield Road services – 10, 20, 52, 57, 69, 73, but not used by the 25 circular), “Valley Road Clock” (Hucknall Road services 2, 6, 17, 18, 28), Bar Lane (Nuthall Road services 1, 7, 22), St Margaret’s Church (Aspley Lane services 16, 16A, 30, 32, 62, 74), Hillside (Derby Road services 5, 19, 45, 63), Old Market Square (former trolleybus routes to Trent Bridge, 41, 43, 46 + 75), and Cardale Road (Sneinton Dale services 3, 59).
Harold, the same lamp fittings were used (and later left off) on the post-war trolleybuses, and the big batch of Park Royal AECs built around 1952-4, but they were mounted the other way up, which always struck me as ungainly and “upside down”! Funny the details that attract the notice of a 4-year old!

Stephen Ford

30/11/11 – 06:28

Knew I’d seen a picture somewhere of a Roberts on a No. 1 at Hanley Street terminus. See this link //nottstalgia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7255

Stephen Ford

30/11/11 – 15:01

Nothing to do with the bus, Stephen, but why is the tower in the background at a different angle to the building in front of it? Are they unrelated edifices?

Chris Hebbron

30/11/11 – 15:03

Interesting memories – the thing I remember most about NCT’s Roberts Regent IIIs is the seats – a different style from other NCT vehicles of the period and far more comfortable.
In the early 1950s there was a time clock for 42,43,44 trolleybuses on Radford Rd, next to the school near Egypt Rd (inwards). This was moved during the late 50s/early 60s to the stop on Vernon Road just the Bulwell side of the Shoulder of Mutton (ring road). There was also one in Old Market Square in trolleybus days at least, at the stop outside the Bell Inn for 42, 43, 44 (outwards).

Bob Gell

30/11/11 – 17:14

Re: the tower in the background at a different angle……… The tower is part of the building directly below it, but for some reason it is not parallel with it!. The main building is aligned to the road, but the tower isn’t

KC

30/11/11 – 17:37

This has started something hasn’t it?! Chris, the clock-tower is indeed part of the building – known as Lambert’s factory (one of the correspondents on Nottstalgia farther down the forum mentions its conversion to offices, and the partial collapse that happened at that time). Why it is set at an angle, square-on to the top of Hanley Street, I don’t know.
Bob, yes I was unsure about the northbound timeclock in the OMS (Beastmarket Hill). The timetable I have gave no clue about the Vernon Road one either. It quotes Basford Northern Baths as a timing point, but of course that was the terminus of the 42 anyway. I suspect there may have been others earlier. Did other cities use them? I never spotted any.

Stephen Ford

01/12/11 – 07:37

Stephen – re the clocktower of Lamberts building, I seem to recall reading sometime that the tower sides are aligned to face geographic north south east west.
(No idea why though!).
Re timeclocks, an equivalent used in the Birmingham area for many years was the Bundy time clock.

Bob Gell

02/12/11 – 16:32

Thanks Stephen. I thought I had seen a photo of 307 somewhere, and this must have been it.

Harold Blythe

03/12/11 – 06:58

Sheffield had quite a number of Roberts bodied Regent III in 1948/9 for both the A and B fleets. They had a slightly different (a bit old fashioned) appearance than this Nottingham example. I remember the rather heavy rain deflectors over the saloon windows, the bulge to the cab front panel which doesn’t seem to be there in the angle of the shot of the Nottingham vehicle. Sheffield specified sliding windows rather than half drops. Both sets of bodies were of four bay construction which was rather unusual at that time being more of a 1950s design. Re Bob Gell’s comments, the Sheffield Roberts bodies also had passenger seats different from any others in the fleet having higher backs. I think Roberts made a more pleasing design of body for the 35 tramcars built for Sheffield in 1950-1952.

Ian Wild

30/12/11 – 07:36

Ian, Nottingham also had 15 Daimler CVD6s with Roberts bodies. They came before the AECs and were only 7 foot 6 wide, (the Regents were Nottingham’s first 8 foot buses). The Daimlers were similar to the preserved Colchester example, and like the Sheffield Regents had sliding windows. They also had straight backed seats, instead of the high back contoured ones that Bob referred to. Here is a link //www.flickr.com/photos/

Stephen Ford

02/05/12 – 08:55

Stephen – do you recall that the ‘Roberts Regents’ came in two ‘varieties’.
a) three half drop windows per side on both decks and glass lamp covers.
b) four half drop windows per side on the upper deck and two per side on the lower deck but no lamp covers.
Can anyone remember where the split between the two ‘species’ came in terms of fleet numbers?
Roger, Harold, Stephen and Bob – there were 13 locations at which NCT had time recorders (known as ‘clocks’) as opposed to the clocks situated at terminal points. Time recorders were located at
(1) Aspley Lane/Melbourne Road
(2) Nuthall Road/Bar Lane
(3) Vernon Road/Valley Road
(4) Hucknall Road/Costock Avenue
(5) Mansfield Road/Villiers Road
(6) Gedling Road/Westdale Lane (services 25/25B to Mapperley)
(7) Carlton Road/Alma Road (services 38/39 inwards)
(8) Sneinton Dale/Cardale Road
(9) St.Anns Well Road/Bath Street (services 40/47 inwards)
(10) Bath Street/Victoria Baths (services 38/39 outwards)
(11) Derby Road/Hillside
(12) Old Market Square/Processional Way
(13) Old Market Square/Angel Row
The recorders at St.Anns Well Road and Bath Street were also used as crew relieving points known as Bath Street Junction and Bath Street Clock respectively.

Michael Elliott

03/05/12 – 09:00

Hi Michael, Thanks for this. I was sure there were more clocks than I was able to infer from the timetable. Now you mention it I do remember waiting for time at the GedlingRoad/Westdale Lane stop on the 25 – wasn’t this stop called Dr Parks’ Corner, or was that the Burton Road/Gedling Road stop?
I hadn’t realised the differences between the two batches of Roberts Regents. It was my impression that both started out with the glass jelly-mould lamp fittings, and both lost them towards the end – though I could be mistaken. (They also featured on the Roberts Daimlers and the Roe-bodied trolleybuses. They were also fitted on the later Park Royal OTV series Regents, but mounted the other way up (upside down!) as also the 1950 trolleybuses (KTV500-601).

Stephen Ford

03/05/12 – 10:00

Michael, I’ve been thinking some more about the timeclocks. There was one on almost every group of routes. The exceptions suggest they were a fairly early innovation, which was not perpetuated as the route network developed after about 1950. The following routes did not have them:
4 and 4A Beeston routes – These were originally through routes from Arnold (replaced by the 57) so passed the Villiers Road clock. 9, 54, 65 Mapperley/Carlton via Gordon Road. However the 9 originally ran via Thorneywood Lane and Carlton Road, passing the Alma Road clock.
31 Mapperley via Woodborough Road. Originally however this ran through to Trent Bridge as 35, and would therefore pass the Processional Way clock.
56 and 60 Bilborough via Ilkeston Road. Services not introduced until about 1948 by which time I suspect the decision had been taken not to install any more.
58 Radford via Castle Boulevard. Until about 1953 this ran across city to Sneinton Dale as route 3, and would pass the Cardale Road clock.
The clocks also seem not to have been fitted on any joint service routes – i.e. West Bridgford, Clifton or the Basford via Nottingham Road trolleybus routes – which were joint with the Notts & Derby Ripley trolleys until 1953.

Stephen Ford

07/03/13 – 06:53

I am now 44 and grew up in the Bakersfield area and so remember the AECs going up and down Carlton Hill. 39, 72 and 25 were the numbers and I used all of them but the 39 the most when we would go to Wollaton Park.
I remember the county council taking down the old trolley bus posts and the suspended central road lights, but the city council left theirs in for many years after that and they began near the old Fina petrol station and went all the way down Carlton Hill and all the way to Lower Parliament Street.
I really loved the old AECs, they just looked so right and I thought they would be around for ever.
One of my favourite spots was near the old railway bridge on Carton Hill at the junction of Porchester Road.
The railway signs were still on the bridge walls advertising various ticket offers and the pipe organ builders, old blue and white tin building stood on the corner of Carlton Hill and Porchester Road with the Coopers arms just around the corner.
When the buses stopped outside the organ builders at the traffic lights, they would often struggle at rush hours when packed with people.
The junction was much more narrow then and the old traffic lights were cast iron and had the word stop over the red lens in black.
These would often stick on red both ways and bring everything to a holt.
We would sometimes get off there and feed the horses at the fence at the edge of the field which is now the housing estate.
Any more memories from anyone?

David Morris

07/03/13 – 11:48

Intrigued by the advert for the pipe organ builder, David. As a professional organist, I only know one organ builder in Nottingham – Henry Groves. Is it he, or some other? Groves continues, in death, run by his grandson – Jonathan Wallace.

David Oldfield

08/03/13 – 07:22

The organ builder referred to is Henry Groves who occupied the former St. Clement’s church (a tin chapel)at this location. The railway bridge carried Carlton Road over the former Nottingham Suburban Railway, which had closed in 1951 and had been dismantled by 1954.

Michael Elliott

08/03/13 – 08:37

Thanks Michael. Henry Groves/Jonathan Wallace have quite a good reputation in the East Midlands.

David Oldfield

09/03/13 – 07:37

David,
Its a small world, I do know Jonathan Wallace and I do a small amount of organ building myself as it is one of my interests as well as buses and railways.
I sometimes went down there as a boy to watch them work and that is where my interest started.
Groves then moved to the old sports hall at the back of the old Hogarth school at the bottom of Carlton hill near the old Crown pub, (later Smitheys and now gone).
Jonathan still works near Nottingham.
As you are a professional organist, I could do with some advice as I am trying to get to grips with the Theodore Dubois Toccata in G, with very slow progress.
Anyway back to the subject of Buses, Does anyone have any photographs of AEC Regent III bus OTV 161, as I am the current owner and would like to try and put an information board together for the public.

David Morris

09/03/13 – 13:49

David, glad you are taking care of this piece of NCT history. You probably know there are quite a few photos of OTV 161 on Flickr. The following is a selection from the Grimsby Cleethorpes Transport collection, from the time when it was with them.
www.flickr.com/photos/andysbusphotos/1
www.flickr.com/photos/andysbusphotos/2
www.flickr.com/photos/andysbusphotos/3
www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/
www.flickr.com/photos/

Stephen Ford

10/03/13 – 07:46

Thanks for the shot of 154 Peter and thanks to Stephen for the links to 161.
Like the shot of 161 in the Market Square. I have seen a couple of the Grimsby shots before but the others are interesting.
If anyone has any dates or details such as last run in Nottingham, routes through its life, time at Grimsby etc, that would be great.
I notice the indicator lenses are different when it was at Grimsby as it has the bright orange jelly mould lenses fitted now.
These lenses are the ones I remember as a child, which I assume were fitted when the trafficators were removed. (Which year?)
There have been quite a few things which I have found during time working on 161 which make up some very interesting questions. Time for these some other time.
If anyone has any photographs of Regents on the Carlton route, that would really make my day.

David Morris

12/03/13 – 06:41

I’m pleased that David Morris is now the owner of OTV 161 and has had it back on the road. The late Peter Edgington and myself were the original restorers of 161 during 1981-83. We did the work ourselves, with assistance from friends from time to time, to a limited budget. We tried to ‘capture’ 161 as it would have been around 1960/61 and this involved the restoration of NCT style destination displays front, back and side, a complete repaint and mechanical work. Unfortunately, we were unable to find suitable half drop windows to replace those removed by Grimsby from the fourth bays on both side of the lower deck. I have photographs of 161 during its restoration and I’ll look these out and put together a gallery posting.

Michael Elliott

13/03/13 – 06:47

It would be really great to talk to you some time as I have a lot of questions to ask you.
Really looking forward to seeing the restoration photographs you took.
I will try and sort out some recent pictures of 161.

David Morris

20/06/13 – 13:32

Is somebody going to volunteer a nice shot (or shots – preferably including front, rear and interiors) of OTV 161, for inclusion on OBP? – This is just a gentle prod – pleeeaase!

Stephen Ford

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

06/01/15 – 05:43

Does anyone know please whether any of the Roberts AECs (301-341) survived the breaker’s yard? It would be great to see one again.

Harold Blythe

07/01/15 – 06:28

Sadly, I’m a hundred and ten percent certain that none did. If only…

Stephen Ford

08/01/15 – 06:47

KTV 301

Recent comments brought this section to my attention.
See my “Best bits” re Nottingham Area Bus Photos for some of my pics of these Roberts Regents.
Sad to see a final, final confirmation that none of these superb vehicles survived into the preservation era and I enclose one of my other pics to confirm that the class pioneer in particular went the way of all such flesh. Here is 301 just about intact (well, apart from the most important bit!) in a scrapyard up Commercial Rd in Bulwell. Unusual in that it still carries fleetnames and numbers – these were normally painted over before disposal.

Rob Hancock

22/02/15 – 16:23

Thank you both for the information and photo. It’s no use me offering to help anyone to restore one then! Very sad.

Harold Blythe

23/02/15 – 07:20

While none of these handsome machines still exist, there IS an example of a 7`6 wide Roberts-bodied Daimler, ex-Gash still in the throes of restoration. Sorry, don’t have contact details, but it has featured in recent enthusiast magazines. One suspects those involved in that project would welcome an active helper. In addition, of course there is the similar ex-Colchester example already restored and active in the care of LVVS

Rob Hancock

Nottingham City Transport – AEC Regent III – SAU 203 -203


Copyright Bob Gell

Nottingham City Transport
1954
AEC Regent III 9613S
Park Royal L27/26R

After Nottingham City Transport had obtained the ex Bradford lowbridge Daimlers to start the services to the then newly developing Clifton Estate, an existing order for Park Royal bodied AEC Regent IIIs was amended, and 10 were delivered in April and June 1954 with lowbridge bodies as 199-208 (SAU 199-208).
These lowbridge vehicles were needed as the railway bridge on Wilford Lane (ex GC main line) precluded highbridge deckers being used.
However, in March 1958, another bridge over the River Trent was opened, and NCT services serving Clifton Estate were diverted over this new bridge, known as Clifton Bridge. This meant NCT no longer needed lowbridge vehicles, but West Bridgford and South Notts continued to use Wilford Lane.
By 1964/5, I think the lowbridge Regents tended to be used on works extras, and service 2, between Goldsmith Street and Valley Road.
The first of the batch were withdrawn in early 1967, when 199-202 were taken out of service and sold. 199 stayed locally, becoming Barton 1087 until 1972, when it was withdrawn and exported to America.
However, in September 1968, NCT took over the West Bridgford fleet and inherited their Clifton services with its lowbridge requirement.
At this point, the remaining SAU Regents, 203-8, came into their own again, reappearing on the Wilford Lane services to Clifton, quickly replacing the non standard pair of ex WBUDC Willowbrook bodied Regent IIIs, ORR 139/40, which were 6812A chassis, with the 7.7 engine and crash gearbox, rather than the 9.6 engine and synchromesh gearbox of the SAUs.
These buses were delivered in the traditional NCT livery of green with three cream bands, but all were repainted in the brighter livery adopted in the early 1960s.
203 was photographed in August 1969, at the Clifton terminus of service 67.
203-8 were withdrawn in 1970/1, along with the ex WBUDC Reading bodied Regent Vs, and were replaced by Atlanteans 395-400 (VAU 395-400J), which were a special lowheight version of the then standard Nottingham design on PDR1/3 chassis.
As a postscript, history repeated itself a few years later when the Atlanteans were themselves rendered surplus to requirements as lowheight vehicles early in their life, with the removal of the low railway bridge on Wilford Lane in autumn 1974. They remained in the fleet until withdrawn in 1981, when five of the six were exported to Hong Kong, via Paul Sykes, but that’s another story!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.

19/01/12 – 05:42

OK, I’ll be the smart alec that reckons this must have been a Saturday morning (assuming the timetable was still the same as two years later). The clock shows 11.43. On Mondays – Fridays, the 67 only ran via Trent Bridge hourly, and its departure time from Langstrath Road was 41 past. Sundays it was hourly at 56 past. But on Saturdays it was every 24 minutes, and on the odd hours this was 00, 24 and 48 past. The journey to Broad Marsh took 22 minutes – it was only 19 via Clifton Bridge. For many years the numbers were the same by either route.

Stephen Ford

19/01/12 – 12:32

Stephen – Spot on! August 2nd, to be precise.
Thanks for the additional information.

Bob Gell

19/01/12 – 12:32

Timetables on the buses on Clifton ?!?! We never needed to bother. All the services from Nottingham to Clifton entered Clifton at the same road and then spread out to different terminus points within the Estate. We lived in a house located before the buses spread out, so we could use any of the route numbers from Nottingham. And on the return journey out of Clifton we were at the point where all the services converged, so all the different routes went past our bus stop. Never had to wait more than a few minutes for anything

KC

19/01/12 – 17:58

Timetabling to serve three different termini, each by two different routes, with different end to end journey times, and joint working with South Notts on the Trent Bridge services, was quite complex – especially when you remember that the actual buses were not interchangeable between the Clifton Bridge and Trent Bridge variants! The main routes were 61A, 67 and 68, each running either via Clifton Bridge or Trent Bridge. The 61 and 66 were by this time rush hour short workings. Monday-Friday daytime had a combined 10 minute interval service via Clifton Bridge (half-hourly to each terminus). There was a 20 minute interval service via Trent Bridge (hourly to each terminus). Overall, buses left Broad Marsh in a repeating sequence of 10,5,5,10,5,5 minutes. On Saturdays, all six services (three by each bridge) ran on a 24 minute headway. You might expect this to level out to an overall 4 minute interval service (every 8 minutes via each bridge). Such was not the case, however, no doubt for good logistical reasons. Instead the Saturday departures from Broad March were in the repeating sequence of 6,4,2,6,4,2 minutes, and the interval over each of the bridges was 6,10,8,6,10,8 etc. I wonder who worked that lot out!

Stephen Ford

20/01/12 – 07:39

I note the photo was taken in 1969. So I’m sure one of the experts can answer the question “When did Nottingham City Transport finally stop using open rear platform buses?”. My memory (unreliable) tells me that there weren’t any beyond the early 1970s. They seemed to disappear relatively early compared to other operators.

KC

20/01/12 – 07:40

Of course it’s obvious now but something which hadn’t really occurred to me before is that South Notts had a strong presence at both Huntingdon Street and Broad Marsh. Was there ever anyone on hand to supervise the departures or were they left to their own devices? I’m not suggesting for a moment that they (or the others) would have been anything less than professional but as Stephen says, it was a complex operation. I wonder if South Notts rosters contained any inter-working with the Loughborough service or if Clifton services were kept totally separate?

Chris Barker

20/01/12 – 12:32

They had exposed radiator AEC Regent Vs running in 1971 The last open platform deckers bought dated from 1959 so withdrawal in the seventies would be reasonable.

Chris Hough

20/01/12 – 12:33

KC NCT’s last open platform buses were withdrawn in 1976. (11 Regent Vs from 1956, and 6 PD2s from 1959). The final ex WB Regent Vs had been withdrawn in 1974.
The last half cabs in the fleet, the 1965 Renowns, were withdrawn in 1976/7.

Bob Gell

22/01/12 – 06:50

Unlike many, I quite like the enclosed Regent V front, but – like the PD2s and PD3s – I do prefer the exposed radiators. There is a dignity in style which is missing on so many “tin fronts”.

David Oldfield

23/01/12 – 07:48

I think the reason for the emergence of the tin front was the revolution in the appearance of single deckers. Half-cab single deckers became obsolete almost overnight in 1951, making double deckers look dreadfully old-fashioned by comparison with the new underfloors.
I must say that as a bus-mad child in the 1950s I was completely sold on the idea. I thought the tin-front Leylands of Oldham and Southport looked far better than Manchester’s archaic exposed radiators. It was only when the tin fronts themselves started to look dated that the traditional purity of the exposed radiator won out over the (by then) out dated attempt to disguise it.
The enclosed Regent V front looked like a reshaped radiator rather than a disguised one. Car manufacturers had already started doing the same thing, retaining the distinctive features of their traditional radiators in their new grilles but in a lower, wider shape (the most obvious comparison is Rover), and by common consent AEC’s approach was more successful and stylistically durable than the others.

Peter Williamson

27/01/12 – 06:37

Am I right in thinking that in my time at Nottingham (66-69) one make (AEC or Leyland) was in the majority on Derby Road north of the university campus, and the other make in the majority on University Boulevard south of the campus? or does my memory play tricks? Atlanteans were in evidence from City centre to Trent Bridge for the football, but I only recall open platform designs serving the University. I do remember once travelling in a lowbridge side gangway vehicle from University boulevard to Beeston. I also remember a late night city centre start with a full bus and flat battery, the bus was facing uphill so reverse was engaged and the engine started with no problem.

Nigel Richards

27/01/12 – 11:14

Nigel, the 5 (Beeston via Derby Road) and 5A (via Castle Boulevard) were certainly operated by the same buses. They ran as a circular route – outward as a 5, inward as a 5A and vice versa. This avoided the need to reverse in the congested centre of Beeston before the bus station was built. However it may well be that the other north side services (19 and 63) used a separate group of vehicles from the other south side services (4 and 4A). Both the 4 and 5 displayed “Beeston via Derby Road” but they were completely different routes. The 4 turned off Derby Road at Gregory Street, Old Lenton, joining the 4A route along the southern perimeter of the campus (University Boulevard). The 4 and 4A avoided the reversal problem by continuing beyond Beeston Square along Chilwell Road, and round the block Collin Street, Gladstone Street to terminate at Imperial Road.

Stephen Ford

28/01/12 – 06:42

Nigel, Stephen
I seem to remember that in 67/8, 4,4A, 5,5A were a 50/50 split between AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2s. Don’t know about 19 and 63 though.

Bob Gell

28/01/12 – 14:35

Hi Bob, yes, you are probably right. My point really was that there couldn’t have been an operational segregation between the “south side” and “north side” services, since the 5 and 5A at least were the same vehicles running out by one route and in by the other. I think by this time the Regent Vs and PD2s were the only back-loading half-cabs left (and no doubt many of these had also been withdrawn). I can’t remember whether the Renowns ever got onto these routes. Incidentally, in checking with the 1971 timetable, I discovered that the 63 was routinely scheduled a 15 minute layover at the outer terminus (Wollaton Vale) – 20 minutes journey and 15 minutes layover. Nice work if you can get it!

Stephen Ford

03/05/12 – 08:56

Bob – I think the SAU Regents became an embarrassment to NCT after the diversion of their Clifton services via Clifton Bridge. Here was a batch of ten buses no more than four years old and with three years of the initial certificates of fitness still to run with no real work to do. As you say they found employment on works services. The only requirement for lowbridge buses was the once or twice a week service to the White City dog track on Trent Lane from Clinton Street. I recall seeing an SAU regularly on a service 4 going into Nottingham when on my way home from work during 1967.
Stephen – in 1969 there was still a 30 minute service on Sundays via both bridges.
In the days of NCT/WBUDC and South Notts sharing the service the number of buses required was:-
NCT (via Clifton Bridge)
Sunday – 5 buses
Monday to Friday peaks – 11 buses
Monday to Friday inter peak – 5 buses
Monday to Friday evenings – 5 buses
Saturday daytime – 6 buses
Saturday evening – 5 buses

South Notts/WBUDC (via Trent Bridge)
Sunday – SN – 3 buses; WB 2 buses
Monday to Friday am peak – SN 7 buses; WB 5 buses
Monday to Friday morning interpeak – SN 2 buses; WB 1 bus
Monday to Friday afternoon interpeak – SN 1 bus; WB 2 buses
Monday to Friday pm peak SN 6 Buses; WB 6 buses
Monday to Friday evenings – SN 2 buses; WB 1 bus
Saturday daytime SN 4 buses; WB 3 buses
Saturday evening SB 3 buses; WB 2 buses.
NCT was the major operator with 55% of the mileage operated. South Notts had 25% and West Bridgford 20%.
Chris – South Notts Clifton workings were kept separate from its ‘main line’ services. There were some early morning journeys from Gotham garage running out to take up service at Clifton advertised and passengers using these journeys had to pay the relevant fare from Clifton as well as a fare from Gotham to Clifton.
On the question of supervision, although South Notts had two Inspectors I cannot remember seeing them at Broad Marsh during the period I was using Clifton services. I did however see NCT Inspectors at Broad Marsh – mainly during the teatime peak – observing departures of NCT buses. West Bridgford also had Inspectors but I don’t remember seeing them at Broad Marsh.

Michael Elliott

23/05/12 – 09:12

Thanks for all the insight into early Clifton Estate runnings, I must admit it has always confused me how the percentages were worked out. Certainly a lot more interesting than todays services on the Estate!

Gareth Perkins

24/11/20 – 06:50

Better late than never, this is a response to Nigel Richards on 27/01/12 @ 06:37 and Stephen Ford (not related to me!) on 27/01/12 @ 11:14. My memory tells me that in my time in Nottingham (1961-1964) the 4 and 4A were operated by AEC Regents (XTO etc) (as were the City – Arnold services). The 5 & 5A were operated by older AEC Regents (KTV etc), as were the 19 & 63. I used the 6, 17, 18 & 28 via Hucknall Road and the 45 via Derby Road, these were operated by Leyland PD2’s (ATO reversed registrations), these were newer but much lighter weight with a consequent bumpier ride than the Regents.

Vernon Ford

25/11/20 – 07:49

Hello Vernon (true – we aren’t related!) My recollection is that certain groups of routes had more or less dedicated series of vehicles, whereas others were operated with a more eclectic mix. Certainly the Bilborough group – served from Bilborough Depot, were almost exclusively the OTV series Regent IIIs (prior to that ISTR it was pre-war Regents, plus some of the KTV 100 series (actually 97-126) on the 13, 56 and later 60. The Arnold routes (10, 20, 20A, 52, 57 and later 69) pl us the Mapperley 31 were served from Sherwood Depot by their fleet of XTO Regent Vs, as you say. Before their arrival most were in the hands of pre-war Regents, supplemented by the 1948/49 KTV 200 series Daimler CVD6s – which were nearly ubiquitous on the 31. I think the Beeston routes were served by Parliament Street Depot, and may have had a bit more variety (the 4/4A was a cross city service from Arnold until about 1952). I recall the KTV 100 Met Cam, KTV 300 Roberts, and OTV Park Royal Regents, plus the XTOs. I lived in Aspley until 1954, on the Hanley Street (1, 7 and 22) routes – which at that time and for some years after were virtually always KTV 300s from Bulwell depot, with just a few extras at peak hours, that might be pre-war Regents or Utility Guys or Daimlers. 1958 PD2s introduced Clifton Bridge routes, when the bridge was first opened, and also the Trinity Square series as you say. The seat spacing was a bit cramped with very upright seat-backs, but on the whole I liked them.

Stephen Ford

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

01/12/20 – 05:40

Stephen, your comment about the PD2’s seats being very upright is true – is my memory correct that the seat width was the same as would have been used on 7′ 6″ wide buses? The gangway always seemed very wide. Also you mention the 1948/49 CVD6’s, by the time I got to Nottingham in 1961 these were generally out of use except for rush-hours, I had many a ride on them to the University. At that date there was no regular service onto Highfield Campus, only two or three buses arriving just before 9am.

Vernon Ford

03/12/20 – 06:40

Vernon, not too sure about the seat widths on the PD2s. My first experience of one, virtually brand new, was on a tour of Nottingham, which NCT used to operate on occasional bank holidays. The CVD6s were a postwar purchase, bought, I suspect, to replace pre-war Regents on the 31 with its steep hills. I have read that in the early post-war period AEC (Henry Ford style – also no relation!) would supply any mechanical configuration as long as it was 7.7 litre and crash gearbox! NCT wanted a bit more “umph” for Woodborough Road and the CVD was 8.6 litre – and of course, pre-selector. The strange thing is that subsequently I don’t ever remember seeing any 9.6 litre Regent III on the 31 – even though the KTV100s and 300s arrived in quick succession about the same time in 1948/49.

Stephen Ford