Tag: Park Royal

Nottingham City Transport – AEC Regent III – SAU 203 -203


Copyright Bob Gell

Nottingham City Transport
1954
AEC Regent III 9613S
Park Royal L27/26R

After Nottingham City Transport had obtained the ex Bradford lowbridge Daimlers to start the services to the then newly developing Clifton Estate, an existing order for Park Royal bodied AEC Regent IIIs was amended, and 10 were delivered in April and June 1954 with lowbridge bodies as 199-208 (SAU 199-208).
These lowbridge vehicles were needed as the railway bridge on Wilford Lane (ex GC main line) precluded highbridge deckers being used.
However, in March 1958, another bridge over the River Trent was opened, and NCT services serving Clifton Estate were diverted over this new bridge, known as Clifton Bridge. This meant NCT no longer needed lowbridge vehicles, but West Bridgford and South Notts continued to use Wilford Lane.
By 1964/5, I think the lowbridge Regents tended to be used on works extras, and service 2, between Goldsmith Street and Valley Road.
The first of the batch were withdrawn in early 1967, when 199-202 were taken out of service and sold. 199 stayed locally, becoming Barton 1087 until 1972, when it was withdrawn and exported to America.
However, in September 1968, NCT took over the West Bridgford fleet and inherited their Clifton services with its lowbridge requirement.
At this point, the remaining SAU Regents, 203-8, came into their own again, reappearing on the Wilford Lane services to Clifton, quickly replacing the non standard pair of ex WBUDC Willowbrook bodied Regent IIIs, ORR 139/40, which were 6812A chassis, with the 7.7 engine and crash gearbox, rather than the 9.6 engine and synchromesh gearbox of the SAUs.
These buses were delivered in the traditional NCT livery of green with three cream bands, but all were repainted in the brighter livery adopted in the early 1960s.
203 was photographed in August 1969, at the Clifton terminus of service 67.
203-8 were withdrawn in 1970/1, along with the ex WBUDC Reading bodied Regent Vs, and were replaced by Atlanteans 395-400 (VAU 395-400J), which were a special lowheight version of the then standard Nottingham design on PDR1/3 chassis.
As a postscript, history repeated itself a few years later when the Atlanteans were themselves rendered surplus to requirements as lowheight vehicles early in their life, with the removal of the low railway bridge on Wilford Lane in autumn 1974. They remained in the fleet until withdrawn in 1981, when five of the six were exported to Hong Kong, via Paul Sykes, but that’s another story!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.

19/01/12 – 05:42

OK, I’ll be the smart alec that reckons this must have been a Saturday morning (assuming the timetable was still the same as two years later). The clock shows 11.43. On Mondays – Fridays, the 67 only ran via Trent Bridge hourly, and its departure time from Langstrath Road was 41 past. Sundays it was hourly at 56 past. But on Saturdays it was every 24 minutes, and on the odd hours this was 00, 24 and 48 past. The journey to Broad Marsh took 22 minutes – it was only 19 via Clifton Bridge. For many years the numbers were the same by either route.

Stephen Ford

19/01/12 – 12:32

Stephen – Spot on! August 2nd, to be precise.
Thanks for the additional information.

Bob Gell

19/01/12 – 12:32

Timetables on the buses on Clifton ?!?! We never needed to bother. All the services from Nottingham to Clifton entered Clifton at the same road and then spread out to different terminus points within the Estate. We lived in a house located before the buses spread out, so we could use any of the route numbers from Nottingham. And on the return journey out of Clifton we were at the point where all the services converged, so all the different routes went past our bus stop. Never had to wait more than a few minutes for anything

KC

19/01/12 – 17:58

Timetabling to serve three different termini, each by two different routes, with different end to end journey times, and joint working with South Notts on the Trent Bridge services, was quite complex – especially when you remember that the actual buses were not interchangeable between the Clifton Bridge and Trent Bridge variants! The main routes were 61A, 67 and 68, each running either via Clifton Bridge or Trent Bridge. The 61 and 66 were by this time rush hour short workings. Monday-Friday daytime had a combined 10 minute interval service via Clifton Bridge (half-hourly to each terminus). There was a 20 minute interval service via Trent Bridge (hourly to each terminus). Overall, buses left Broad Marsh in a repeating sequence of 10,5,5,10,5,5 minutes. On Saturdays, all six services (three by each bridge) ran on a 24 minute headway. You might expect this to level out to an overall 4 minute interval service (every 8 minutes via each bridge). Such was not the case, however, no doubt for good logistical reasons. Instead the Saturday departures from Broad March were in the repeating sequence of 6,4,2,6,4,2 minutes, and the interval over each of the bridges was 6,10,8,6,10,8 etc. I wonder who worked that lot out!

Stephen Ford

20/01/12 – 07:39

I note the photo was taken in 1969. So I’m sure one of the experts can answer the question “When did Nottingham City Transport finally stop using open rear platform buses?”. My memory (unreliable) tells me that there weren’t any beyond the early 1970s. They seemed to disappear relatively early compared to other operators.

KC

20/01/12 – 07:40

Of course it’s obvious now but something which hadn’t really occurred to me before is that South Notts had a strong presence at both Huntingdon Street and Broad Marsh. Was there ever anyone on hand to supervise the departures or were they left to their own devices? I’m not suggesting for a moment that they (or the others) would have been anything less than professional but as Stephen says, it was a complex operation. I wonder if South Notts rosters contained any inter-working with the Loughborough service or if Clifton services were kept totally separate?

Chris Barker

20/01/12 – 12:32

They had exposed radiator AEC Regent Vs running in 1971 The last open platform deckers bought dated from 1959 so withdrawal in the seventies would be reasonable.

Chris Hough

20/01/12 – 12:33

KC NCT’s last open platform buses were withdrawn in 1976. (11 Regent Vs from 1956, and 6 PD2s from 1959). The final ex WB Regent Vs had been withdrawn in 1974.
The last half cabs in the fleet, the 1965 Renowns, were withdrawn in 1976/7.

Bob Gell

22/01/12 – 06:50

Unlike many, I quite like the enclosed Regent V front, but – like the PD2s and PD3s – I do prefer the exposed radiators. There is a dignity in style which is missing on so many “tin fronts”.

David Oldfield

23/01/12 – 07:48

I think the reason for the emergence of the tin front was the revolution in the appearance of single deckers. Half-cab single deckers became obsolete almost overnight in 1951, making double deckers look dreadfully old-fashioned by comparison with the new underfloors.
I must say that as a bus-mad child in the 1950s I was completely sold on the idea. I thought the tin-front Leylands of Oldham and Southport looked far better than Manchester’s archaic exposed radiators. It was only when the tin fronts themselves started to look dated that the traditional purity of the exposed radiator won out over the (by then) out dated attempt to disguise it.
The enclosed Regent V front looked like a reshaped radiator rather than a disguised one. Car manufacturers had already started doing the same thing, retaining the distinctive features of their traditional radiators in their new grilles but in a lower, wider shape (the most obvious comparison is Rover), and by common consent AEC’s approach was more successful and stylistically durable than the others.

Peter Williamson

27/01/12 – 06:37

Am I right in thinking that in my time at Nottingham (66-69) one make (AEC or Leyland) was in the majority on Derby Road north of the university campus, and the other make in the majority on University Boulevard south of the campus? or does my memory play tricks? Atlanteans were in evidence from City centre to Trent Bridge for the football, but I only recall open platform designs serving the University. I do remember once travelling in a lowbridge side gangway vehicle from University boulevard to Beeston. I also remember a late night city centre start with a full bus and flat battery, the bus was facing uphill so reverse was engaged and the engine started with no problem.

Nigel Richards

27/01/12 – 11:14

Nigel, the 5 (Beeston via Derby Road) and 5A (via Castle Boulevard) were certainly operated by the same buses. They ran as a circular route – outward as a 5, inward as a 5A and vice versa. This avoided the need to reverse in the congested centre of Beeston before the bus station was built. However it may well be that the other north side services (19 and 63) used a separate group of vehicles from the other south side services (4 and 4A). Both the 4 and 5 displayed “Beeston via Derby Road” but they were completely different routes. The 4 turned off Derby Road at Gregory Street, Old Lenton, joining the 4A route along the southern perimeter of the campus (University Boulevard). The 4 and 4A avoided the reversal problem by continuing beyond Beeston Square along Chilwell Road, and round the block Collin Street, Gladstone Street to terminate at Imperial Road.

Stephen Ford

28/01/12 – 06:42

Nigel, Stephen
I seem to remember that in 67/8, 4,4A, 5,5A were a 50/50 split between AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2s. Don’t know about 19 and 63 though.

Bob Gell

28/01/12 – 14:35

Hi Bob, yes, you are probably right. My point really was that there couldn’t have been an operational segregation between the “south side” and “north side” services, since the 5 and 5A at least were the same vehicles running out by one route and in by the other. I think by this time the Regent Vs and PD2s were the only back-loading half-cabs left (and no doubt many of these had also been withdrawn). I can’t remember whether the Renowns ever got onto these routes. Incidentally, in checking with the 1971 timetable, I discovered that the 63 was routinely scheduled a 15 minute layover at the outer terminus (Wollaton Vale) – 20 minutes journey and 15 minutes layover. Nice work if you can get it!

Stephen Ford

03/05/12 – 08:56

Bob – I think the SAU Regents became an embarrassment to NCT after the diversion of their Clifton services via Clifton Bridge. Here was a batch of ten buses no more than four years old and with three years of the initial certificates of fitness still to run with no real work to do. As you say they found employment on works services. The only requirement for lowbridge buses was the once or twice a week service to the White City dog track on Trent Lane from Clinton Street. I recall seeing an SAU regularly on a service 4 going into Nottingham when on my way home from work during 1967.
Stephen – in 1969 there was still a 30 minute service on Sundays via both bridges.
In the days of NCT/WBUDC and South Notts sharing the service the number of buses required was:-
NCT (via Clifton Bridge)
Sunday – 5 buses
Monday to Friday peaks – 11 buses
Monday to Friday inter peak – 5 buses
Monday to Friday evenings – 5 buses
Saturday daytime – 6 buses
Saturday evening – 5 buses

South Notts/WBUDC (via Trent Bridge)
Sunday – SN – 3 buses; WB 2 buses
Monday to Friday am peak – SN 7 buses; WB 5 buses
Monday to Friday morning interpeak – SN 2 buses; WB 1 bus
Monday to Friday afternoon interpeak – SN 1 bus; WB 2 buses
Monday to Friday pm peak SN 6 Buses; WB 6 buses
Monday to Friday evenings – SN 2 buses; WB 1 bus
Saturday daytime SN 4 buses; WB 3 buses
Saturday evening SB 3 buses; WB 2 buses.
NCT was the major operator with 55% of the mileage operated. South Notts had 25% and West Bridgford 20%.
Chris – South Notts Clifton workings were kept separate from its ‘main line’ services. There were some early morning journeys from Gotham garage running out to take up service at Clifton advertised and passengers using these journeys had to pay the relevant fare from Clifton as well as a fare from Gotham to Clifton.
On the question of supervision, although South Notts had two Inspectors I cannot remember seeing them at Broad Marsh during the period I was using Clifton services. I did however see NCT Inspectors at Broad Marsh – mainly during the teatime peak – observing departures of NCT buses. West Bridgford also had Inspectors but I don’t remember seeing them at Broad Marsh.

Michael Elliott

23/05/12 – 09:12

Thanks for all the insight into early Clifton Estate runnings, I must admit it has always confused me how the percentages were worked out. Certainly a lot more interesting than todays services on the Estate!

Gareth Perkins

24/11/20 – 06:50

Better late than never, this is a response to Nigel Richards on 27/01/12 @ 06:37 and Stephen Ford (not related to me!) on 27/01/12 @ 11:14. My memory tells me that in my time in Nottingham (1961-1964) the 4 and 4A were operated by AEC Regents (XTO etc) (as were the City – Arnold services). The 5 & 5A were operated by older AEC Regents (KTV etc), as were the 19 & 63. I used the 6, 17, 18 & 28 via Hucknall Road and the 45 via Derby Road, these were operated by Leyland PD2’s (ATO reversed registrations), these were newer but much lighter weight with a consequent bumpier ride than the Regents.

Vernon Ford

25/11/20 – 07:49

Hello Vernon (true – we aren’t related!) My recollection is that certain groups of routes had more or less dedicated series of vehicles, whereas others were operated with a more eclectic mix. Certainly the Bilborough group – served from Bilborough Depot, were almost exclusively the OTV series Regent IIIs (prior to that ISTR it was pre-war Regents, plus some of the KTV 100 series (actually 97-126) on the 13, 56 and later 60. The Arnold routes (10, 20, 20A, 52, 57 and later 69) pl us the Mapperley 31 were served from Sherwood Depot by their fleet of XTO Regent Vs, as you say. Before their arrival most were in the hands of pre-war Regents, supplemented by the 1948/49 KTV 200 series Daimler CVD6s – which were nearly ubiquitous on the 31. I think the Beeston routes were served by Parliament Street Depot, and may have had a bit more variety (the 4/4A was a cross city service from Arnold until about 1952). I recall the KTV 100 Met Cam, KTV 300 Roberts, and OTV Park Royal Regents, plus the XTOs. I lived in Aspley until 1954, on the Hanley Street (1, 7 and 22) routes – which at that time and for some years after were virtually always KTV 300s from Bulwell depot, with just a few extras at peak hours, that might be pre-war Regents or Utility Guys or Daimlers. 1958 PD2s introduced Clifton Bridge routes, when the bridge was first opened, and also the Trinity Square series as you say. The seat spacing was a bit cramped with very upright seat-backs, but on the whole I liked them.

Stephen Ford

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

01/12/20 – 05:40

Stephen, your comment about the PD2’s seats being very upright is true – is my memory correct that the seat width was the same as would have been used on 7′ 6″ wide buses? The gangway always seemed very wide. Also you mention the 1948/49 CVD6’s, by the time I got to Nottingham in 1961 these were generally out of use except for rush-hours, I had many a ride on them to the University. At that date there was no regular service onto Highfield Campus, only two or three buses arriving just before 9am.

Vernon Ford

03/12/20 – 06:40

Vernon, not too sure about the seat widths on the PD2s. My first experience of one, virtually brand new, was on a tour of Nottingham, which NCT used to operate on occasional bank holidays. The CVD6s were a postwar purchase, bought, I suspect, to replace pre-war Regents on the 31 with its steep hills. I have read that in the early post-war period AEC (Henry Ford style – also no relation!) would supply any mechanical configuration as long as it was 7.7 litre and crash gearbox! NCT wanted a bit more “umph” for Woodborough Road and the CVD was 8.6 litre – and of course, pre-selector. The strange thing is that subsequently I don’t ever remember seeing any 9.6 litre Regent III on the 31 – even though the KTV100s and 300s arrived in quick succession about the same time in 1948/49.

Stephen Ford

Hull Corporation – AEC Regent III – OTV 165 – 170


Copyright Bob Gell

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1954
AEC Regent III
Park Royal H30/26R

This photograph was taken in Summer 1969, at a very familiar location in Hull and it shows 170/2 OTV165/7 of the KHCT fleet.
During 1967, KHCT acquired no less than 36 of these Park Royal bodied Regent IIIs from Nottingham City Transport, exactly half of the batch of 72 such vehicles registered OTV 127 to OTV 198 and delivered to Nottingham City Transport between June 1953 and October 1954. They were numbered 150 to 185 by Hull, but not one of them had a Hull fleet number that matched its registration! The front destinations were altered to Hull specification; the rear ones were panelled over. They were withdrawn by Hull between 1970 and 1972. One vehicle, 157 (OTV 137) then became a training vehicle, and still survives; it can usually be seen at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum, restored to its original NCT livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.

15/03/12 – 09:30

What an evocative picture, even if they are not native KHCT buses, how well the streamline livery sits on them! The location is, of course, the Coach Station in Collier Street. How lucky we were in Hull to have a coach station; instead of a mundane bus station, like other places. It was called coach station from being opened in 1935, this in spite of the fact that KHCT never owned any coaches for general service until the 1980’s! 170 has just arrived from Orchard Park via Beverley Road on the circular service 17C, whilst 172 is arriving from Willerby road on service 81. I recall OTV 137 at Sandtoft in the early 1980’s carrying the streamline livery of KHCT.

Keith Easton

15/03/12 – 09:30

I remember them new in Nottingham, where they ousted the pre-war Regents on the Bilborough, Broxtowe and Strelley services (13, 16, 16A, 30, 32, 56, 60, 62). In fact Bilborough depot’s allocation was almost entirely from this series. They also filtered onto a few other individual routes. I am pretty sure they never or rarely appeared on the Arnold group of services (10, 20, 20A, 52, 57) which retained pre-war vehicles until the arrival of the exposed radiator Regent Vs in 1955-56.

Stephen Ford

15/03/12 – 09:30

I remember these coming to Hull and causing me a lot of confusion, or at least the one that survives did. I saw it (157) and in my mind matched registration number to fleet number. I happened to go to Nottingham later that same day and was somewhat surprised to find OTV 157 running there. It was a little while after before I realised my mistake and that I hadn’t seen the same bus working for two operators on the same day!

David Beilby

15/03/12 – 12:09

In addition to these ex Nottingham buses Hull also bought ex St Helens RTs (see here) one of which BDJ 87 is preserved at the Lathalmond Museum in Saints livery. In addition Hull bought ex Newcastle Daimlers with Birmingham style bodywork (see here) and some AEC Regent IIIs also with MCW bodywork from Leicester.

Chris Hough

16/03/12 – 07:27

In addition to Nottingham selling these to Hull three of the batch went to Grimsby-Cleethorpes. I remember conducting on them and thinking they seemed pretty archaic compared to our Bridgemasters.

Philip Carlton

16/03/12 – 12:46

The Grimsby-Cleethorpes trio were OTV 159/161/163, purchased by GCT in 1967 to replace their 3 1946 RT Regents, 80-82 (JV 9900-9902). The Nottingham vehicles initially took over these three running numbers, but then became 112-114 in 1969 to release the earlier numbers for new Daimler Fleetlines.

Stephen Ford

19/03/12 – 09:24

Stephen – As you say, the OTVs were the basic allocation at Bilborough depot for most of their time in Nottm; the remainder of the batch was based at Parliament St and spent most of their time on the Beeston rota. After trolleybus conversion, they also appeared on Wells Rd routes 40 and 47 until withdrawn. I also never saw any on the Arnold (Sherwood depot) routes.
Philip – I agree your comment about these appearing archaic; I have subsequently found in Alan Townsin’s TPC book on Park Royal that these vehicles had been due for delivery in 1950, hence the 5 bay bodies, half drop windows, and late 40s, early 50s style interiors, with varnished/polished wood, which were a world away from the Park Royal Regent Vs delivered in 1955/6. But at least they were 8’wide!

Bob Gell

21/04/12 – 08:39

One of the trio of OTVs sold to Grimsby Cleethorpes also survives in preservation. The bus concerned is Nottingham 161, which can be seen at the GCR Heritage Centre at Ruddington, near Nottingham. It is also restored to Nottingham’s green with cream bands livery.
The original order for the buses that became the OTVs was for 112 buses, placed in 1948 for delivery from 1950. When the 72 OTVs came in 1953/54 the chassis had to be shortened to 26 feet from 27 feet (one foot removed from the rear overhang) to suit the Park Royal bodies which, at 26 feet long, were to the pre 1951 legal length for a two axle double decker. The choice of a five bay body must have been down to Nottingham as Park Royal had a four bay body for the Regent III in production from 1947 (examples supplied to Huddersfield, Morecambe and West Bridgford). The choice may have been to standardise on the half drop windows used, which were as used in the BUT 9641T trolleybuses. Another feature, also seen on the 9641T trolleybuses, was the placing of the batteries under the stairs (as with the RT) rather than in cradles on the chassis side (as with Nottingham Met-Cam and Roberts bodied Regent). The 72 vehicle were almost identical. Variations were 150 with its opening front upper deck windows and the last deliveries of 1954, which had to have a second rear lamp to meet changed legislation fitted. This was incorporated in the bottom of the grab rail positioned against the back platform window. The balance of the 112 were received as the ten SAUs and the 30 UTVs.
The OTVs did certainly dominate the allocation at Bilborough Depot, which, from memory, was from about bus 156 to bus 198, until replaced by NAU and RTO Fleetlines in the middle 1960s. Bulwell also had its Roberts bodied Regents replaced by Fleetlines (RTOs) about 1964. The others were based at Parliament Street and were used on a variety of services including the Beestons, the West Bridgfords, the Sneinton Dales and the 25 and 58. From my observations Parliament Street’s share of the Arnold services were worked by PD2s, but what worked these prior to the arrival of the PD2s? Prior to the arrival of the Regent Fives Sherwood had an allocation of the Daimlers with both Brush and Roberts bodies.

Michael Elliott

21/04/12 – 11:49

Thanks Michael. I don’t actually ever remember seeing PD2s on the Arnold routes. My recollection is of wall-to-wall Regent Vs from 1956, prior to which memory says that they were operated by pre-war Regents (Metro-Cammell and Cravens). However I have seen enough photos to convince me that my memory is not infallible! – Daimler CVD6s were also used. It is also certain that the 10 was often singled out for the left-overs – utility CWA6s or second hand pre-war Halifax Regents. Also, in the early 50s, the Redhill route that became the 57 was one end of a cross-city 4/4A from Beeston, often served by 1948 Metro-Cammells. Similarly, the 3 Sneinton Dale was originally a cross-city service, starting at Radford (Addington Road) and at that time invariably pre-war Regents. Both the 3 and 4/4A were split in two, I guess, around 1952/53, Redhill becoming 57, Radford 58, and a new extension beyond the Sneinton Dale terminus of the 3 became 59.
The Parliament Street OTVs were also widely used on the Trinity Square-Bestwood area services (6, 17, 18, 28) and the Gordon Road routes (9, 23, 54, 65).

Stephen Ford

01/05/12 – 07:06

Hi Stephen – The link between Beeston and Arnold dated back to April 1933 when service 4 was linked to services 10 & 20. At that time service number 4 was used for the Beeston to Nottingham part of the journey and 10 or 20 used for the journey through to Arnold. Service 10 ran via Mansfield Road past the Home Brewery to Redhill Road then via Redhill Road to the Mellors Road junction. Service 20 ran via Mansfield Road then via Nottingham Road (Arnold), Front Street, Church Street and Mellors Road to the Redhill Road junction.At this time all journeys between Beeston and Nottingham whether by via Derby Road or Castle Boulevard were service 4 until 2nd April 1944 when journeys via Castle Boulevard became 4A. When the Arnold tram service was converted to bus operation from 6 September 1936 service number 10 was used for the service between the Old Market Square and Valley Road, Sherwood. Service 20 still operated between Mellors Road but ran through to Trent Bridge via Arkwright Street. The service to Redhill Road via Mansfield Road then became the 4, running through from Beeston (via either Derby Road or Castle Blvd). The split between Beeston and Arnold took place from 25th May 1952 when the 57 was introduced between the Old Market Square and Redhill and the 4/4A became solely a service between Beeston and the Old Market Square.
Through operation by service 3 between Sneinton Dale and Addington Road, Radford ceased from 12th April 1953 when service 58 was introduced between South Parade and Radford.

Michael Elliott

Reading Corporation – AEC Regent I – RD 7127 – 47

Reading Corporation - AEC Reagent I - RD 7127 - 47

Reading Corporation
1935
AEC Regent I
Park Royal L26/26R

RD 7127 is an AEC Regent I with ‘oil’ engine, making her an O661. Those with petrol engines did not have the O prefix, and it dates from 1935. It has Park Royal bodywork, to the L52R layout, and we see it at Longcross, Chobham, on 1 April 2007.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

18/03/17 – 07:14

Sister vehicles 11 and 46 were withdrawn as early as 1950, but the Corporation gave 47 a body rebuild and she ran till the end of February ’56, to the delight of a small knot of enthusiasts, one of whom sat in the front nearside seat upstairs as she rumbled over a cobbled bridge, celebrating the fact that she was now in her 21st year of service.
Seven years later Reading Transport Society member John Whitehead announced that 47 was still active, ferrying mushroom farm employees at Thakeham, W Sussex, and that the owners, A G Linfield, were shortly to donate her to the Society. In October 1963 we went down to pick her up and, being the only one of us over 21, I had the honour of driving. No bus could have been kinder to the novice: ideal driving position, excellent visibility, positive controls with no slack anywhere, nice progressive clutch and brakes,
easy gearbox, reassuring stability…47 has it all. Mike Dare and I did all our pre-PSV-test driving practice on her before joining Smiths Coaches. Over the next few years we covered hundreds of miles in 47 to and from rallies, museums and—sadly—trolleybus system closures. Still in good mechanical shape, she awaits structural work on the body before being fit to carry a full load again.

Ian Thompson

18/03/17 – 16:12

Thanks for your thoughts, Ian. As previously, if you or any other members of the readership don’t have a copy of your own of this view, Peter has my permission to forward on your request.

Pete Davies

18/03/17 – 16:14

Memories of Doncaster’s Regent no 60 which apparently ran from 1942 to 1962 in a similar livery and Roe body, no doubt ferrying miners home from shift. It is no wonder that Donny seemed to like AEC’s: although nothing beats its all Leyland PD2’s with trolley rebodies which all did 25-26 years.

Joe

19/03/17 – 07:05

Provincial’s number 35 is a very similar vehicle except for being highbridge. That ran in service 1936-1966 with its original company before being sold to preservation. Its body is teak framed and aluminium panelled which accounted for longevity – does anyone know if this combination was used for other bodies by Park Royal and if they too lasted a long time.

David Chapman

21/03/17 – 15:57

Thanks for the kind offer of a copy, Pete. Superb photo!

Ian Thompson

British European Airways – AEC Regal IV – NLP 645 – 1035

British European Airways - AEC Regal IV - NLP 645 - 1035

British European Airways
1953
AEC Regal IV 9822E
Park Royal RDP37C

NLP 645 is an AEC Regal IV 9822E with Park Royal bodywork, new to BEA in 1953. The bodywork is described in different sources as HDC or RDC. The 2012 PSVC listing has her as RDP37C, which is a bit different! We see her during one of the infuriatingly rare open days at the Science Museum Annex, Wroughton, on 12 July 1986.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

07/04/16 – 15:00

RDP37C is the correct code – these were essentially observation coaches, but with a continuous roof-line and poorer quality “DP” style seats and interior trim. The “HD” code applied to Crellin-Duplex “half-deckers” such as the prototype which can be found on the “Ugly Bus” part of this website.

Neville Mercer

08/04/16 – 06:18

BLOTW. Under more shows 3 photos in Everyone’s photos of NLP 645 being with BEA until 1966-67 1 of the 3 photos shows coach went to the London perfume and soap house Yardleys whom were then based in Basildon Essex. NPL 641 also went to them they are seen as a pair in first of the 3 photos. It is later seen in preservation.

Alan Coulson

08/04/16 – 06:19

Thanks, Neville. These pages have carried a fair amount of debate about what is or is not a DP

Pete Davies

08/04/16 – 15:40

Manchester’s Burlingham bodied airport vehicles were always classified as “RC” by the PSV Circle, even though the level of comfort and trim was almost identical to the “RDP” London machines. I don’t think that there was any hard and fast policy- the use of the DP prefix was left to the discretion of the individual editor in the PSV Circle chain. In the case of North Western, for example, somebody at the Circle decided that the Weymann and Willowbrook 30′ DPs (the “Black Tops”) were DPs despite their relatively bus-like seating and seat-pitch. The Alexander bodied 30′ Reliances of 1961 on the other hand were often described as “C41F”, even though they consisted of coach interiors in a bus shell. Later in their lives (when repainted half-and-half) they were sometimes described as DP41F even though nothing had changed except their livery. I’m always very careful when I use a “DP” prefix- it’s essentially meaningless unless you go on to specify the exact configuration.

Neville Mercer

23/04/16 – 06:35

MLL 747

The contract to run and maintain the BEA transfer coaches between central London and the surrounding airports was held by London Transport. When the Commer Commando 18 seater observation coach fleet became due for replacement, LT convinced BEA to adopt a variant of its standard RF Regal IV saloon, albeit with a Park Royal rather than a Metro-Cammell body. The new fleet began arriving from 1952, and was classified 4RF4 by LT. In their earlier years, they saw sporadic use, some being stored in the winter months, but as air travel became more and more popular, so the BEA fleet saw increasingly heavier service. They soldiered on reliably until 1966/7 when they were replaced by front entrance Routemasters with luggage trailers. MLL 747, one of the 1953 deliveries, was withdrawn in 1967 and passed to Continental Pioneer, in whose ownership it is seen here on the A23 at Southgate, Crawley during the May 1970 HCVC Brighton Run. In May 1972 it was sold to Scout Groups in Brighton and Hove, and its subsequent fate is unclear.

Roger Cox

11/04/17 – 07:23

MLL 747 was sold to the 20th Brighton Scout troop. The Scout troop took it to summer camp at the Olympic Games in Munich 1972, I was one of the scouts. The huge luggage space came into good use. It was used to take the Scout troop to other summer camps, I remember at least one in the West Country. The coach was later sold and the troop bought a Harrington bodied coach I think a Grenadier from Unique Coaches of Brighton. A couple of photos of it in Brighton https://flic.kr/p/9nk4AM  – https://flic.kr/p/9oi6N7

Andy Gibbs

11/04/17 – 17:31

Although Roger mentions The vehicles running from Central London, the BEA ones, at least, ran from the West London Air Terminal in Kensington, to Heathrow. Here’s a link to an item about it: https://rbkclocalstudies.
The item mentions that, coming in, you could go to Central London, via the Terminal and presumably, you could pick up the vehicles in Cnetral London, too, but where?
Did the vehicles and terminal also deal with BOAC?

Chris Hebbron

07/01/19 – 07:18

Chris, as you may have found out, Ian’s Bus stop is pretty good at summarising the 4RF4 operations. The WLAT I think was only BEA – then BA per the K&C local studies link.
BOAC used their own Leyland Atlanteans from the Victoria Air Terminal (now the National Audit Office) which I think were garaged in the Heathrow area.

Ian London

09/01/19 – 06:37

To add a little to your second paragraph, Ian, the Victoria Air Terminal could well be that which was used before the war, serving the same purpose for Croydon Airport.

Chris Hebbron

10/01/19 – 06:24

The present National Audit Office was originally the Imperial Airways London Terminal, opened in 1939 to serve Croydon Airport. The war then intervened, and, with the resumption of peace, Heathrow became the airport for London, and BOAC the major carrier beyond Europe.

Roger Cox

12/01/19 – 07:04

Thx for confirming my thoughts, Roger. It must have been almost the last flourish of Art Deco architecture and duly awarded the name of the Empire Air Terminal. My favourite is the Daily Express building in Manchester, renovated not many years ago and truly beautiful, not a word I use lightly!

Chris Hebbron

London Transport – AEC Regal IV – UMP 227

UMP 227

London Transport
1949
AEC Regal IV
Park Royal B40F

I have submitted this vehicle under the London Transport heading as it is in ‘Country Area’ green and carries the London Transport fleetname. It is an AEC Regal IV with Park Royal B40F body, new as an AEC Demonstrator in 1949. Neither the Jenkinson list of 1978 nor the PSVC list of 2012 gives it a model number. It now forms part of the collection at Brooklands, where we see it (newly restored) on 13 April 2014.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

10/02/17 – 07:04

Looking through the driver’s windscreen this bus seems to have the later control binnacle beneath the steering wheel as produced for the Regent V/Reliance from around 1960. It also looks to have the Monocontrol semi-auto gearchange on the side of it. Was this original or has it been modified at some stage?

Philip Halstead

10/02/17 – 07:05

When this vehicle was constructed in 1949 the maximum permissible length for a single decker was 27ft 6ins. This one and its left hand drive counterpart, together with the 25 private hire examples of the LT RF class were the only Regal IVs built to that length. After serving as a demonstrator with London Transport at St Albans, and then with others including SMT, UMP 227 went back to AEC as a works hack, where it managed to survive into preservation. The bodywork styling is clearly related to the immediate pre war LT Chiswick and Park Royal built buses of the Q, TF and CR classes.

Roger Cox

According to Alan Townsin’s book ‘Blue Triangle’, there were two Regal IV prototypes – as Roger has mentioned – both with Park Royal bodies. UMP 227 was finished in green livery as seen in Pete’s photo, and the other – a left hand drive version – wore a blue livery and went to Holland for a time before returning and being sold around the mid-1950s. (Sadly where it ended up is not stated). The author states that the prototypes “had chassis numbers in the U series of numbers used for experimental parts, a practice that became usual for subsequent prototypes or experimental vehicles, though the production type numbers were 9821E and 9831E for right and left hand versions”. UMP 227’s chassis number is given as U135974, but that of the left hand drive prototype is not mentioned.
Philip, the same source describes the Regal IV as having a “horizontal A219 version of the 9.6 litre engine and air-operated preselective gearbox, and air pressure brake operation”. I would hazard a guess – a foolish thing to do on this well-informed website I know! – that the ‘Monocontrol’ semi-automatic gearchange binnacle you mention may well have been fitted during UMP’s subsequent life as an AEC Experimental Department hack.

Brendan Smith

11/02/17 – 06:38

Philip, I’ve just had a look on the London Bus Museum website, which states that UMP227 was “originally fitted with air-operated pre-select gearbox, later fitted with mono control (sic) with overdrive on 3rd and 4th gears”. Well spotted that man!

Brendan Smith

11/02/17 – 06:39

UMP 227 does indeed have Monocontrol transmission.

Mark Evans

12/02/17 – 07:14

Regarding the second prototype fitted out as left hand drive I have a very vague recollection of seeing a photo somewhere, I know not where, of it being used as a roadside cafe somewhere in the south of England.
I am probably totally wrong and having a senior moment if so I apologise in advance.

Diesel Dave

12/02/17 – 07:17

I see distinct similarities to the 1950 AEC Regal IV/Park Royal demonstrator VMK 271, which ended up on the Isle of Man as Douglas Corporation no. 31.

Petras409

19/02/17 – 07:34

In Gavin Booth’s book “British Buses In Colour” (Ian Allen 1996) there is a picture of Douglas Corporation No. 31, NMN 355 mentioned by Petras409. As he suggests, this was VMK 271, the other 27ft 6in Regal IV AEC demonstrator dating from 1950, originally built with left hand drive. It passed to the Isle of Man in 1951 and stayed there until 1974 when it was sold to Manx Metals for scrapping. A working life of 24 years is pretty good for a prototype, and testifies to the rugged reliability of the Regal IV, borne out by the long lives of the members of the LT RF class.

Roger Cox

29/05/18 – 06:41

The LHD prototype Regal IV did indeed finish up as a roadside cafe in the 1950’s, at Hindhead Surrey in a wooded car park just off the A3. My family regularly stopped there for refreshments at my insistence to look at a bus so different to anything else around. Suddenly one day it had gone, a sad day for a (then) youngster!

Peter Burton

East Yorkshire – AEC Bridgemaster – 9719 AT – 719

East Yorkshire AEC Bridgemaster

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1962
AEC Bridgemaster
Park Royal LD72F

Photo taken Hull bus station July 1965 or 6. The code LD denotes that it is a lowbridge vehicle but with a highbridge type seating layout.

A full list of Bridgemaster codes can be seen here.

East Yorkshire bought a large batch of both Bridgemasters and Renowns between 1960-66.
It’s early Bridgemasters 1960-61 were rear door some with and some without the tapered ‘Beverley Bar’ Roof. From 1962 onwards the standard Park Royal body was with a tapered roof that appeared on both models.
The last Renowns of 1966 vintage had a short EYMS life as they were swapped for Tynemouth and District Fleetlines in 1972. I believe because EYMS needed to bring in front entrance buses, this may be because the local Hull Corporation had by 1972 totally switched to one man operated Atlanteans and the city bus station stands were altered accordingly, making the EYMS fleet overrun the stand entrances.
Feel free to correct if anybody else has an alternative answer to the fleet swap.

Anonymous

I think the Coach Station layout is a red herring, as the later Bridgemasters and Renowns were front entrance, but is in fact to do with EYMS introducing the ‘Farebox’ services within Kingston upon Hull services and these were to be OMO services for which the older, having a separate driving cab, were unsuitable, hence the 20 Fleetlines bought from Tynemouth.

Keith Easton

14/11/12 – 07:11

The PSV Circle, who could be said to hold the ‘copyright’ on body codes, actually abandoned the use of the code ‘LD’ decades ago, simply because it became impossible to draw a dividing line between low and normal height – once low-frame chassis were available operators could, and often did, have bodywork built to whatever height they wished. If a vehicle was 14’0″ high, would it be H or LD? Current convention would regard the above as H72F, in spite of its obvious low height.

David Call

East Yorkshire – AEC Bridgemaster – 4703 AT – 703

East Yorkshire - AEC Bridgemaster - 4703 AT - 703

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1961
AEC Bridgemaster
Park Royal H45/28RD

I don’t think there were many rear entrance Bridgemasters built – you did not see many 30ft rear entrance buses they were usually 27ft 6in. Note the luggage rack just inside the door there would also be space under the stairs this was probably for tourists suit cases in the Bridlington area. The Bridgemaster had a low floor on the lower deck so it could have a normal seating arrangement upstairs but still be able to negotiate the Beverly Bar. The registration number is something like 1703 AT but the angle is not good to see clearly worked it out from now found fleet list reg 4703. If you look at the bus behind it is a full fronted Leyland Titan with the Beverly Bar roof.

A full list of Bridgemaster codes can be seen here.

25/11/11 – 17:03

Does anyone have photos or a list of those Bridgemasters and Renowns that carried the illuminated “It’s Best By Bus” slogans on the offside? I grew up on Longhill Estate, firmly in EYMS territory, and I can remember those signs looming out of a foggy winter evening whilst heading home after spending the afternoon being dragged around Hammonds or the Co-op.

Andrew Ottaway

26/03/12 – 14:28

Despite the design, these (nos 700 to 715) had tapered upper deck profiles for the Bar operations as did subsequent Bridgemasters, Renowns and Fleetlines 825-36/52-7/66-72.
The first four Bridgemasters 696-699 did not have this.

Malcolm Wells

26/03/12 – 17:03

I lived on the West Hill Estate in Bridlington until December ’63 (aged 5-7). Buses from this batch (700-715) worked the Estate route from new – The domed roof buses (as I saw them) hardly ever appeared thereafter.
When I moved to Leeds I drew pictures of green Leeds buses with a luggage rack inside the rear entrance – I just assumed all rear-entrance buses had luggage racks there, having experienced nothing else!
703 seems to be very photogenic – there’s a photo of the same vehicle in the specialist AEC Bridgemaster book! I’d love to know how many of the 16 in the batch worked out of Quay Road 61-63.

Barry Parker

27/03/12 – 15:56

Andrew, here’s a link to an EYMS Bridgemaster with a raised advertisement panel. I don’t know if it’s an illuminated one though. //www.eyms.co.uk/

John Darwent

28/03/12 – 08:29

I’m not sure about this, but I believe all the buses with raised advertisement panels were illuminated, but I think that this would have fallen into disuse at some period.

Keith Easton

28/03/12 – 11:27

Andrew – Here’s a link to the ‘It’s Best by Bus’ advert on EYMS Bridgemaster 725 //www.eyms.co.uk/

John Darwent

06/06/12 – 17:40

I found these posts very interesting as I was employed as a bus driver at Anlaby Road depot from 1963 till 1970 upon which I left for Australia. Yes I well remember driving a Bridgemaster the first time through the Beverley Bar and ducking my head !!!! another time which makes me smile, we were coming along Hessle Road into town in a saloon and when I pulled up at the bus stop my mate opened the door and said to this guy who was full as a boot ” we are full upstairs ” and he said ” ok mate I will wait for the next one so I can have a smoke” happy days.

Tony Frost

07/06/12 – 07:03

Nice anecdotes, Tony!

Chris Hebbron

06/09/12 – 07:34

3747 RH_lr

Photograph of 3747 RH with the illuminated “It’s Best By Bus” slogan on the offside for Andrew 1st comment above.

John Thompson

24/02/13 – 08:14

Thanks for the replies, and particularly John’s links.

Andrew Ottaway

Rotherham Corporation – AEC Bridgemaster – VET 139 – 139

Rotherham Corporation AEC Bridgemaster

Rotherham Corporation
1961
AEC Bridgemaster
Park Royal H43/27F

This photo was taken if I remember correctly at Doncaster bus station of a Rotherham Corporation AEC Bridgemaster it shows off well the very square and rather top heavy appearance of the Park Royal body. Although the Bridgemaster was badged as an AEC it was actually designed and developed at Crossley Motors in Stockport Cheshire. It had AEC running gear and a Park Royal body but it was first seen on the Crossley stand at the 1956 Earls Court show. All production models after the show were named AEC Park Royal Bridgemaster not a mention of Crossley anywhere.

Just to confirm that the photo is taken in Doncaster at the old Waterdale bus station. The bus is operating on the 77 service which was the Doncaster to Sheffield route via Rotherham, this service was jointly operated by Rotherham, Doncaster and Sheffield Corporations.
The route was moved into the then new South Bus Station and Waterdale was made into a surface car park. South Bus Station has now itself closed in favour of the new Frenchgate Interchange (formerly the old North Bus Station)

Andrew

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Bridgemaster – 1925 WA – 525


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Sheffield Corporation
1961
AEC Bridgemaster
Park Royal H43/29F

I think this photo was taken when this bus was new it looks in very good condition to me. The angle of the shot does show up the very square and upright look of the Park Royal Bridgemaster. Why did the Bridgemaster have that small window to the left of the entrance doors (see D Oldfield update below) no other front entrance bus that I know of did. There must be a reason apart from just having a window otherwise moving the doors more into the saloon would be wasted space, bodybuilders do not waste space. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.

Reg no 1925 WA fleet no 525 was one of six Bridgmasters supplied to Sheffield Transport the other five were all rear entrance. It has been preserved.

George

I think there was a first batch of six, all rear entrance followed 2 years later by a one off front entrance.

Anonymous

I have a shot of a rear entrance Sheffield Bridgemaster so I will do more research and it will arrive shortly with full details.
In fact I have done the research and the bus arrived on Monday 3rd August, here is a link to it.

Peter

Sheffield Bridgemasters: 519-524 were rear entrance with a row of five rear facing seats, Lodekka style, at the front of the saloon. This covered the gearbox/differential housing – which can be seen at the front of the saloon of all traditional half-cabs. On Bridgemasters, this was extra large – hence the reason on the front entrance version for the doors to be set further back and the strange small window.
From a Sheffielder who travelled – at times – on all seven vehicles.

David Oldfield

This photo would have been taken by the corporations own photographer. It is taken outside the gates of Norfolk Park. The council took photos of all there new buses here. The East Bank, Shoreham Street and Queens Road depots were all less than a mile from here.

James Walker

06/07/12 – 07:20

This bus was often to be seen on the number 7 route to Stannington

Brian

03/10/13 – 08:49

I have conducted on 525 doing a few weddings this summer. Can any of your Sheffield experts tell me why the lower deck has a green interior including seats whilst the staircase and upper deck is red.

Geoff S

03/10/13 – 14:35

Because that was the standard post war interior colour scheme until 1959. Only in 1960, with 1325-1349, did the inside saloons begin to have a red scheme, but not all. This scheme only lasted until 1966 when the interiors were again changed – this time to blue on each deck. Why? I have to admit, I often wondered that myself but – as we were often told in the days, it is because it is!

David Oldfield

03/10/13 – 15:41

David, I remember the wheels being blue for a while too, due to local politics, but don’t think that would be the reason for the seats as the council was very red at the time.

Les Dickinson

04/10/13 – 06:11

True or not, Les, it’s the sort of childish behaviour we’ve come to expect from modern-day politicians! Some years, ago, when Big Ben was being renovated, it was found that the original paint applied to the clockfaces was blue. In the interests of historical accuracy, preparations were made to repaint them blue, until the non-Labour MP’s got to hear of it. They remained black! Of course, compromise could have made three of them red, blue and yellow respectively, with the other one…… pink!

Chris Hebbron

04/10/13 – 15:14

On the interiors, we have to remember the down stair seats were upholstered, whilst the upstairs were leather, so smokers would not damage them.
My personal choice was for red wheels with chrome rings, even though I come from the blue half of the city.

Andy Fisher

04/10/13 – 17:21

Blue half, Andy? That much?

David Oldfield

05/10/13 – 15:38

More like the blue 3/4 side.

Andy Fisher

22/10/13 – 17:37

Just thought I would let you know that the first vehicle in the fleet to have blue seats (moquette on both decks incidentally) was No 340, the Commercial Motor Show Atlantean exhibit of 1964. It was also the first to sport blue wheels. The Fleetline’s which came the same year had the normal red seats and wheels etc as did the Neepsend bodied Atlantean’s. It was 1966 that the blue seats and wheels were adopted as standard, the first vehicles being Park Royal and Neepsend bodied Atlantean’s and the Bedford VAS/Craven.

Trev Weckert

23/10/13 – 17:41

1925 WA_rear

It was never going to be as attractive as Kylie M’s rear aspect but interesting nevertheless. Seen here before final touches added after repaint.

John Darwent

24/10/13 – 07:50

I always think that this PRV design was the ugliest they ever came up with and one of the ugliest ever by anyone. It first graced Atlanteans then PD2s, Regent Vs and Tiger (PS1/PS2) rebuilds. Nevertheless, every time I see 525 I feel a great affection for it. Are the proportions better than on the East Kent Regent Vs? Does the livery suit it better? …..or am I just a big softie who remembers the old girl when she was brand new, doing the Herdings in Sheffield? […..and that is a fantastic photo, John.] I’d love to have a drive of her.

David Oldfield

26/10/13 – 07:22

I seem to remember seeing the rear open platform buses, at the bus stop on Olive Grove Road on the 101 Arbourthorne route. Service 28 & 43 also run from that stop. Rightly or wrongly I believed that they had some kind of air suspension that you could bounce up & down. Would this be so? My times catching the 43, they had Regent 5s with front operated doors, a handsome bus, but I never rode a Bridgemaster.

Andy Fisher

26/10/13 – 12:15

64-73 were, indeed, handsome buses. 1963 Regent V 2D2RA with Weymann Aurora bodywork. They were regular performers on the 28/43 group. [My Grandmother lived on the 28 route.] You are right about the air suspension on the Bridgemasters.

David Oldfield

29/10/13 – 07:38

973 FWJ

Here is 273 (originally 73) as mentioned by David above it is seen reversing at Lodge Moor Hospital on 20th January 1968.

Ian Wild

29/10/13 – 13:16

Thanks for that, Ian. I always thought that these were the best looking front loader AECs. 435-460 (1960s back loader Orions) were also handsome buses. A great pity that Sheffield never had front loader Roe bodies on their Regent Vs as the Park Royals were “unbalanced” and not at all attractive. Give me 64-73 any time.

David Oldfield

29/10/13 – 13:18

966 FWJ_lr

Here is an off side view of 66 (966 FWJ). What a day that was didn’t stop raining all day.

Peter

29/10/13 – 16:11

Totally agree, a handsome bus & the ones I remember. These were one of the first busses I remember that had the string pull bell, asking the passenger to stop the bus with one pull. There may have been other types, just that I did not ride them. I also think they had 2 door opening levers, one for the driver in the cab & one for the conductor on the bulkhead, or was there room for the driver to operate the bulkhead one. Of the Atlanteans of the era, I preferred the Park Royal bodywork.
There was a coach building firm on Penistone Road, on the right hand side just before the speedway track outbound. I think they made the 1965 c reg, on the Shiregreen route, may have been 47 & 48 routes. Their terminus was on Bridge Street. They had twin windows at the rear & also the upstairs emergency window & not a particularly good looking thing. Does anyone have any photos or information on the coach builder or pictures? I have pictures of them as part of streets scenes, but no information, as the subject matter was on how things looked at the time.

Andy Fisher

30/10/13 – 07:07

They were the Neepsend bodied PDR1/2 Atlanteans built between 1964 and 1966. There is still a misconception about Neepsend Coachworks. Cravens of Darnall came out of bus building after the 1950 Regent IIIs for Sheffield. At the suggestion of East Lancs own board of directors they came back in 1964 by buying all the shares of East Lancashire Coachbuilders from their three owner/directors. Cravens decided to create more capacity by building a new factory at Neepsend, Sheffield but to use East Lancs designs. Initially this was done by building up East Lancs parts but eventually everything was built in Sheffield for Neepsend bodies. This didn’t last for long and extra capacity was unnecessary – so Neepsend production had ceased by 1968. [Neepsend quality was apparently not up to Lancashire standards either.] East Lancs continued in Cravens ownership until Cravens themselves were bought by John Brown and the Trafalgar House. Eventually ownership passed to Drawlane – but Neepsend was long gone by this time.

David Oldfield

30/10/13 – 07:07

Penistone Road- That would be Neepsend (which is where they were) who suddenly appeared there in the 60’s- until ? They were part of East Lancs and possibly there was an incentive to open up there. The factory had see-through doors and bus skeletons would slowly appear for passers by and then be clad.

Joe

30/10/13 – 07:08

Andy, Neepsend Coachworks was on Penistone Road as you describe. Neepsend was a subsidiary of East Lancs Coachbuilders, Blackburn. They built two batches of bodies of 20 each on Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2 chassis for Sheffield in 1964/5/6. I thought they were good looking buses, better than the Park Royals as they had equal depth windows on each deck. Neepsend fitted new staircases to Sheffield Weymann bodied Regents 811 and 813 at a time when Queens Road was overwhelmed by such work on the batch of 40.

Ian Wild

30/10/13 – 11:52

Ian, Neepsend was not a subsidiary of East Lancs. This is one of the long standing misconceptions of bus industry history. The correct story is given above in great detail by David.

Roger Cox

31/10/13 – 07:11

David, thanks for the clarification over Neepsend ownership. Huddersfield had 16 CVG6LX delivered in 1966, half bodied by East Lancs and half by Neepsend. The bodies from each source were randomly distributed amongst the fleet numbers. I don’t recall either make of body being any worse than the other when it came to the first COF at 7 years

Ian Wild

31/10/13 – 08:16

That’s OK, Ian, there have been years of obfuscation over the ownership but, even as a kid in Sheffield when they were built, I was aware that they were “really” Cravens. East Lancs, being the higher profile name, people would, and did, jump to the wrong conclusion. To be strictly correct, both East Lancs AND Neepsend were independent subsidiaries of the holding company Cravens. [The details came from the East Lancs book from Venture (or was it TPC?).] It was common to mix and match East Lancs and Neepsend in an order – I think it happened at Southampton – which I think is bizarre, but I wasn’t running the company. Somehow, I’d missed out that Huddersfield had any – only took 57 years for me catch up!

David Oldfield

31/10/13 – 15:07

I think a great deal of the confusion comes from the fact that traditional East Lancs customers placed orders with that company and, because of either lack of space at the Blackburn factory or to give work to Neepsend, orders or part orders were dealt with by Neepsend. It would be interesting to know how much say the customer had in where the vehicle was bodied. I know that in the case of Stockport its 1967 order was split because the chassis, already delayed due to a large order book at Leyland, would have lingered for many months, or been bodied by another company, had half the order not been dealt with by Neepsend. The two batches were at least numbered one following from the other but it was widely understood over the ensuing years in service that the Sheffield product was inferior.

Phil Blinkhorn

02/11/13 – 17:57

I borrowed a book from the library on Firth Browns steel company. One of the separate companies, (from poor memory Firths) bought Cravens, as a way of placing their steel. It said they made railway carriages, trams & busses. It must have been early 1900s, because there was not a lot of bus activity, although expanding fast, but lots of the other forms of public transport. The next time I use the library, (I will have to be quick as Sheffield is closing numerous libraries, politics, do not get me started) I will get the book out again to research, unless you chaps know the answer.

Andy Fisher

07/11/13 – 15:25

Got the book now. John Brown of Firth Browns (world renown steel company here in Sheffield), bought Cravens in 1919. It was called at that time Cravens Train & Carriage Company or something similar. I am not sure if Sheffield had any busses in 1919, as trams ruled. He bought it when work was short in the steel industry. It enabled him to sell wheels, axles & springs to them.

Andy Fisher

07/11/13 – 17:55

Just returning to the point about East Lancs orders being fulfilled at Neepsend, it seems all the frames were supplied from East Lancs thus enhancing the widely held view of the relationship between the companies that had Neepsend as the junior partner.

Phil Blinkhorn

08/11/13 – 06:39

Phil. I would probably still call them the junior partner, they simply weren’t owned by, nor were they a subsidiary of, East Lancs. Both were owned by Cravens – but in terms of volume and life-span Neepsend was certainly the baby brother, dependent on its older sibling.

David Oldfield

08/11/13 – 06:39

There is of course an interesting thread on a Neepsend posting under the Bodybuilder section of the OBP site. Coincidentally, the final post is by one John Brown!

John Darwent

24/11/13 – 07:38

I have got another book which proves my presumption of no buses in 1920. It shows a Daimler, double decker, solid wheels, with Allen (Sheffield) bodywork, around 1912. Any more info from you gentlemen?

Andy Fisher

26/11/13 – 15:42

In my last posting I should have said my presumption of no buses pre 1920 was wrong. Sheffield Corporation took over the running of busses a few days after WW1 broke out, around the 7th of August 1914.
Did any other Corporations in other city’s do the same?

Andy Fisher

01/12/13 – 08:19

Lovely to see my favourite bus from my schoolboy days in the early Sixties is still alive and kicking! Driving down Wortley Road in Rotherham I could not believe my eyes when there she was parked waiting to pick up a wedding party! Who now owns her and where does she live? (the link at the top of his thread did not work when I tried it) I would love to visit her for old time sake and relive schoolboy memories.
I became acquainted with her and her six rear loading sisters on the 101,102 & 105 routes to Gleadless Townend/Herdings in 1962. I always wondered why the Bridgemasters were used on these routes, there being no overbridges on these routes. I never saw them on any other route but previous threads show they were.
The attraction about 525 to me was the lovely turbine like whining noise she made in top gear. this was not shared with her sisters, can anyone explain why. Does she still sound the same given she has been re-engined. You could always tell AECs because if the whining noise they made in lower gears but this top gear noise appeared to be unique to 525.
I had heard stories that she had been preserved but it was lovely to see her out and about again. What happened to her and her sisters after they left Sheffield and why was she the only one?

Andrew T

You are correct Andrew the link goes nowhere, I have deleted it. Thanks for that.

01/12/13 – 08:48

1925 WA is believed to be privately owned by a member of the Blackman family, and is sometimes used on wedding and other hires by the same family’s Halifax-based Yorkshire Heritage Buses.

John Stringer

02/12/13 – 13:32

John
Try the following website, www.yorkshireheritagebus.co.uk
Its the Yorkshire Heritage Bus Company based at Luddenden Foot between Sowerby Bridge and Hebden Bridge in the Calder Valley.
Their website shows 525 as part of their collection.
It appears to be minus its fleet number and Sheffield coat of arms on its sides.

Andrew T

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

26/02/17 – 07:09

I was placed on Sheffield 525 as a trainee conductor for about a week on the Herding’s route during the long, bad winter ( ice, more than snow )of 1963 ; very glad of the doors! She was a splendid beast all round I thought. Some years later, when driving, I never got a chance on her, but once volunteered, after duty, to drive 519 back from the centre to East Bank garage just to have a go on a Bridgemaster.
Sheffield, in those days, had transfers in the cab reading ‘Do not rest your foot on the clutch pedal’, and the way out-dated ‘ You are driving a covered top bus’ ! Overtime was referred to as ‘Suet’ for some strange reason.
All in all, Sheffield had a superbly well maintained and turned-out fleet, with staff always correctly attired. I later moved to Manchester Transport at Hyde Road garage and was shocked by both the road staff’s bad attitude and their disregard for full uniform dress. The culture shock also included finding that conductors there were known as ‘Guards’, not forgetting new words like ‘Demic’, meaning something, e.g. a bus, having broken down ” It’s a demic.”
One ‘guard’ I worked with there knew of the incident years before when a Sheffield single deck bus had crashed into, and brought down, part of the Manchester Victoria Railway Station facade. He said, The only good thing to come from Sheffield is the road to Manchester’. The fact that it is also used in reverse seemed not to have registered!
Of interest is that the Neepsend coachwork’s building on Penistone Road was still being completed after production had begun there when a new wall collapsed crushing some part-built bus bodies. That must have been in 1962 ?
I have some interesting correspondence from the late GM, Geoffrey Hilditch, whom I once met, regarding solving issues with Manchester’s trolleybuses and also the many problems adapting the former London Feltham trams to the Leeds system, but I don’t understand this site yet, so not sure where it should go.

Mike C

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Bridgemaster – 2522 WE – 522

Sheffield Corporation AEC Bridgemaster

Sheffield Corporation
1959
AEC Bridgemaster
Park Royal H45/31R

Here we have a shot of one of Sheffield Corporations rear entrance AEC Bridgemaster. There was a shot of a Sheffield front entrance earlier this year (link here) and we had 2 comments disputing information, so I have done a bit of research and come up with the following.
There was six rear entrance Bridgemasters fleet no 519 – 524, 519 was delivered January 1959 and the remaining 5 were delivered in February 1959. Incidentally there was only two other production chassis built before the Sheffield six one for each Walsall no 825 and Belfast no 550, there was five other chassis but they were for AEC themselves demonstrators and test vehicles I suspect. The chassis numbers for the six were 007 – 012, it is not until April 1961 and chassis number 104 that the one and only front entrance Bridgemaster for Sheffield was built making seven in total.
So I hope that this sorts out the query into the number of Sheffield Bridgemasters, (unless you know different), my thanks to Bus lists on the Web (see credits) for most of the information.

519-524 were rear entrance with a row of five rear facing seats, Lodekka style, at the front of the saloon. This covered the gearbox/differential housing – which can be seen at the front of the saloon of all traditional half-cabs. On Bridgemasters, this was extra large – hence the reason on the front entrance version for the doors to be set further back and the strange small window.

David Oldfield

04/05/11 – 07:02

519 was a Commercial Motor Show exhibit in November 1958 prior to delivery. It was something of a tradition for Sheffield to have a new vehicle exhibited at what was then a bi-annual show. These were Sheffield’s first 30ft long double deckers and initially operated for a number of years on the 101 and 102 services to Gleadless and Herdings. They were later moved to the Dinnington services 6 and 19 where their low height enabled them to operate under the low railway bridge at South Anston. They had air suspension on the rear axle which I recall gave quite a bouncy motion as passengers boarded and alighted.

Ian Wild

05/05/11 – 06:53

…..and they hissed audibly.

David Oldfield

I would like to mention that the AEC Bridgemaster No.519 was a show model at Earls Court in September 1958. In early December it arrived at Queens Road and one lunchtime I rushed to the Works to catch a sight of it. My reward was to see the Rolling Stock Engineer, Ted Bale, climb into the cab, saying he was taking it to Leadmill Road. Unfortunately, I was not invited aboard. Taking a 101 route AEC Regent III to city, I alighted near to the depot, arriving there to hear Ted tell the Regulator, “Do a changeover and put it straight into service” on the 101 or 102 Gleadless route. The date was around 10th-12th December 1958.

Keith Beeden