…of vehicles pre-1970
CNL 425, a PS1/1 Leyland Tiger, seen here sporting a FC33F Plaxton body of 1956 vintage. It was one of two identical 1948 vehicles delivered new to H W Hunter and Sons of Seaton Delaval, the other being CTY 457. When new they had C33F Burlingham bodies, CTY was also rebodied by Plaxton in 1958.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
Hunter’s were a family run business who went for quality rather than quantity. They bought well in the first place, and as we’ve seen before on this site, their vehicles were well looked after and meticulously maintained. ZV 2428 is probably an age related registration that was issued when the original was transferred to someone’s car. That number is on a vehicle that is part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection. The vehicle in question belonged to H W Hunter and Sons, and is a Leyland Royal Tiger that they bought new in 1952, it came to them as a Burlingham Seagull, and being 1952, I presume it would have been a centre entrance. In 1966, they had it rebodied by Plaxton as a C43F. This vehicle, EJR 791, has an identical history, so the question is, is this in fact the same vehicle, or was it one of a pair?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
30/06/13 – 09:42
Ronnie, nice view!
I remember some vehicles in what was then the Les Gleave Group being lengthened and rebodied in the 1960s. Roman City in Bath did the same trick – using Harrington – on at least one Royal Tiger they bought from Ribble. EJR 791, according to the PSVC preserved bus listing for 2012 is indeed ZV2428, at that time with Universal, Portlaoise.
Pete Davies
I thought ZV and similar registrations are what are popularly known as “Paddy Plates” (I claim Irish blood and am allowed to say this) -Irish registrations with the great advantage of not revealing the (venerable?) age of the coach. These seem/seemed popular with small operators who used them as “personalised” plates.
Joe
01/07/13 – 07:18
The ZV2428 Number probably means that this coach spent some time in Ireland. The ZV plate is used here for imported vehicles that come under a “vintage” registration class which covers vehicles over 30 years old.
David Jones
01/07/13 – 07:35
Mention of the Les Gleave Group lengthening and rebodying a number of Leyland Royal Tigers brought to mind this photo of one of these coaches taken in Eastbourne in the mid sixties registered 2048 LG the body style indicates the work was carried out around 1961/62.
There is a photo of an identical coach at that time belonging to Campings of Brighton registered 501 WLG taken at the 1964 Brighton Coach Rally posted on the SCT 61 Photo Gallery section covering Plaxtons.
Diesel Dave
01/07/13 – 10:50
Only Northern Ireland plates can be used in Britain in the way Joe describes.
ZV is used in the Irish Republic, as David suggests, when registering a vehicle older than 30 years.
Geoff Kerr
02/07/13 – 07:35
It is the same vehicle. EJR 701 is a Leyland PSU1/15 which was new to Hunter’s in March 1952 as their no 19; it had a Burlingham C41C body. In January 1966 it was rebodied by Plaxton to C43F and renumbered 27. In June 1977 it was acquired by OK Motor Services. In January 1984 it was transferred to Lockey’s which had itself been acquired by OKMS in October 1983 and was functioning at the time as an OK subsidiary; EJR carried the ‘Lockeys Burn Line’ fleetname, but OKMS livery. In August 1985 it, together with the rest of Lockey’s extant fleet, returned to OKMS with whom it remained until June 1987.
Alan Hall
06/07/13 – 16:02
I like the zero-(or possibly negative-)offset front wheels on the lengthened Royal Tiger from Diesel Dave, which give the bus a real heavy-vehicle look. One reason that I dislike wheel-trims (especially those ghastly wobbling chrome things) is that they obliterate much of a vehicle’s identity and character, and can add difficulty to a historian’s job. Thankfully, no such nonsense with 2048 LG!
Ian Thompson
28/04/15 – 07:02
This vehicle (if it is the same one) now carries registration RCI 541 (a traditional Laois plate) and is still with Universal, Portlaoise (John O’Brien). https://www.flickr.com/photos/midlanddeltic/17225777661/
I have found a couple of pics showing it carrying ZV2428 which, as suggested above, is a “heritage” plate for imported / re-registered vehicles. //victoryguy.smugmug.com/keyword/ZV2428;zv2428/
Sean Marshall
13/11/21 – 06:09
Pete Davies: In your post of 30/06/13 you have implied that Roman City had an ex-Ribble Royal Tiger lengthened and rebodied by Harrington. The only Roman City vehicle I know to have been rebodied by Harrington was FRN 982, a Tiger Cub, not Royal Tiger, ex-Scout, rather than Ribble, and it retained its original length (more or less).
The ‘Wikipedia’ page on Harrington refers to the vehicle as being ex-Ribble, so that may be where you got the Ribble connection.
David Call
BNW 603C was one of the 1965 batch of Leyland Leopards with WA’s specified centre-entrance Plaxton Panorama bodies. This is an official publicity photograph taken at Roundhay Park, Leeds immediately after delivery. Judging by the trees, it must have been taken in early April (it’s documented delivery month), and I suspect that the roof lights would soon have been closed after the photographs were taken. Perhaps this coach was to be entered in the 1965 Blackpool and Brighton Coach Rallies, so the non-standard chrome wheel trims
would be retained until after the events, and then removed in favour of the standard red paint trim.
As a final observation, why has this “Panorama” got the “Embassy” badge attached to the front off-side panel?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood
19/02/12 – 07:44
…..because it IS an Embassy and not a Panorama! The Panorama has fixed windows and forced air ventilation, The Embassy has (multiple) slider vents and no forced air ventilation. This, along with centre entrances, was a WA special specification for years.
There was a gradual move towards standard Plaxton specification during the sixties. This vehicle certainly has Panorama moldings and ribbed metal detail but it was only with the 1968 F registered vehicles that WA received standard Panoramas. [From 1967, Plaxton renamed and labelled the Panorama as Panorama I and the Embassy as Panorama II. To muddy the water even more, the Embassy on a Bedford VAL was originally called a Val and on a Bedford VAM a Vam!]
This was Plaxton emerging into it’s high point in history. Regrettably, wooden frames – common on all coach bodies – means that few coaches have survived into preservation compared with service buses.
David Oldfield
19/02/12 – 09:00
A most interesting feature Paul from our days at WA – I was unaware of all these finer details about Plaxton/WA specifications and trim. I’ve just hurried to my records and find that I never encountered this coach, but I did drive three others of the batch. I can well see the wisdom of removing the fancy wheel trims promptly, as the heavy Leopards were short on braking stamina as is well known, and any extra optional heat build up was not to be recommended.
Chris Youhill
19/02/12 – 14:06
BNW 603C was indeed WA’s entry in the 1965 Blackpool Coach Rally, driven by Eric Patrickson. They also entered BNW 633C, a Ford 676E/Duple C51F from the Feather fleet. But WA did not enter any coaches in the Brighton Rally.
Dave Williamson
19/02/12 – 16:44
One of this batch the number which is lost in the shadow of time was rebodied and reregistered by Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury. Perhaps someone remembers its new identity.
Philip Carlton
19/02/12 – 16:47
Whoops!
You’re right, David, muddy waters indeed, and I’m sure you are technically correct in what you say. However, to me – if they have panoramic windows, they are Panoramas.
The last of the “official” WA Embassys in 1962, albeit stretched to 36ft, had small windows and a bulbous front and rear – totally unlike a Panorama. I now discover that WA’s 1963 and 64 intake of coaches with Panorama-like bodies were also badged as Embassys.
What is even more strange is that, according to Plaxton history, the Embassy style was designed for lightweight chassis, even though the lightweight VAMs and VALs of the same period had “official” Panorama bodies!
Thankfully, common sense seemed to prevail and the name Panorama-1 became universal for this style of bodywork, albeit with a front-entrance.
Beam me up, Scottie!
Paul Haywood
…..and talking of special WA specifications…..
Woodgrain veneer/formica was the normal finish on both Duples and Plaxtons in the ’60s – which got darker and darker as the decade progressed. The exceptions were these self same WA centre entrance specials which had a very light non standard finish. I never rode on any but “observed” many on holidays in Devon and Cornwall. My hazy memory recalls a light greeny/grey hue with sunshine motifs – but whatever it was, it was unique to WA.
David Oldfield
20/02/12 – 09:05
The point is that from the 1963 season onwards, ALL 36-foot Plaxton bodies had long windows, but not all 36-foot Plaxton bodies were Panoramas. All the evidence says that until the introduction of the Panorama II, the Panorama was fiercely protected as a premium product by the application of three rules: it must have fixed windows, it must have a front entrance and it must be on a heavyweight chassis.
Peter Williamson
20/02/12 – 09:06
It’s strange how the space where the air scoop would have been doesn’t have a glazed quarterlight. Obviously it’s a coach which could be more than adequately ventilated, the trouble was, even on the coldest of days, there was always someone who wanted a window open! With regard to the name, don’t forget the Venturer appeared in several different forms but was it still the Venturer? The Embassys which Paul mentions with the bulbous front had a wonderful stately air about them (when fitted to underfloor engined chassis) the aristocrats of the road!
Chris Barker
21/02/12 – 07:20
Many Plaxton coaches of the 50s and early 60s appeared in three different forms at the same time, quite apart from variations year on year. These were:
1. underfloor engined with centre entrance (bulbous front)
2. underfloor engined with front entrance (flat front)
3. front engined with entrance behind front wheel.
There were cases where these different versions had different windscreens and/or grilles, and once the Panorama got added to the mix, it took dedicated study to work out what was what.
Peter Williamson
26/02/12 – 07:24
Having just seen a couple of photos of 1965 Bedford SBs with Panorama bodies (of the type later badged as Panorama I), I must modify slightly something I said above: it seems that the embargo on “lightweight” Panoramas was lifted with the Ogle restyling for the 1965 coaching season.
Peter Williamson
C920 was one of a batch of five Leyland Leopard coaches to the recently permitted 36ft length delivered in 1962.
They were used on tours until 1968 when they were modified for one man operation which included fitting the roof mounted destination box. During my time at PMT they were allocated to Hanley Depot where they were reasonably suited to the longer distance services such as Hanley – Sandbach, Hanley – Crewe etc but not good on the more urban routes. My recollection is heavy steering, heavy clutch and heavy gear change – in fact they were just a heavy vehicle! The next batch of coaches were Reliance 590s, a much more lively and lighter vehicle to drive. (That should suit David O)!
The photo is taken in the preservation era on 9th September 1979 at the West Riding 75th Anniversary Rally at Belle Isle Depot in Wakefield. The programme records it as recently acquired by the Potteries Omnibus Preservation Society – I wonder if it is still around?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
08/09/13 – 08:30
You know me so well, Ian. Maybe that’s the real reason SUT got 333? Did it escape from an intended batch of six for PMT? Not only were they heavy, heavy, heavy, they had that low cramped driving position and – care of gear ratios – slow. I commuted regularly on the X48 to Manchester and initially it was on North Western’s early Y types on the same chassis. Only once did I get the feeling that they could be good with a driver who managed to DRIVE the thing – keeping the thing in third at the CORRECT revs and storming over the hills on Woodhead. Being an AEC man doesn’t prevent me saying that the Leopard eventually developed in its later years into a good coach – but they never got the ratios right on the standard Pneumo-cyclic box.
David Oldfield
PS: The roof box looks like one of those virtual reality head sets.
09/09/13 – 06:41
David’s comments about North Western’s early Y types is interesting. I regularly rode on those as a teenager on the X5 services to and from London and from a passenger’s point of view they were certainly lively enough on the flat and the more gentle gradients.
I also rode Western Scottish’s versions to and from Glasgow. The A6 over Shap and A74 over Beattock never seemed to present a problem, even when having to get around some fairly slow moving eight wheelers from Southall and Leyland which, when laden and often drawing a trailer, would really struggle.
Given Ian’s recollections regarding the heavy handling of the vehicle, it strikes me as a little odd that North Western, as a keen user of both AEC and Leyland, put all its coach eggs in the Leyland basket from the early 1960s onwards with the Leopard as the chosen chassis.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/09/13 – 09:00
The only area where the early Leopards were superior to the AEC was that they went in the direction you turned the wheel, where as the AEC’s had a tendency to wander. But you’re right about the later Leopard’s David, however, an AEC Reliance with a six speed ZF would knock spots off any Leopard, perhaps that’s why BL ‘not Leyland Motors’ killed if off?
Ronnie Hoye
09/09/13 – 14:15
SUT’s drivers hated 333 [it was the same age and identical to PMT C920] for the reasons stated. The next Leopards only arrived, in the mid ’70s, after NBC take over. I drove a 1976 example with a subsequent owner and was agreeably surprised by how it performed. By then a higher driving position, power steering and the 5 speed pneumo-cyclic box (not to mention a bigger engine) had addressed a number of the earlier criticisms. Ian’s (and SUT’s) criticisms were widespread but the Leopard did have some virtues – but maybe more for the engineer than the driver. It was, to quote a Commercial Motor journalist who was/is also an operator, a reliable plodder. When I once put Phil’s question to a North Western driver he said, “Well the Leopard – especially semi-auto – is nigh on idiot proof but not every one can drive a six speed ZF.” Chris Y and Ian will agree that a ZF is not difficult if you drive properly (that is sensitively) but I know people, who ought to know better, who can’t! Lots of Leopard coaches had two speed rear axles. I always find these fun. There’s a sense of achievement using the splitter well – and this no doubt helped the performance of early Leopards. If you were a Leyland fleet, there was no doubt enough to keep you faithful – but I preferred the (Ribble) Leyland engined REs on the Manchester – Scotland services.
David Oldfield
10/09/13 – 16:30
I was still at Percy Main the first time I encountered an AEC Reliance with a ZF box, a Duple bodied demonstrator turned up, and those of us who were around at the time were invited to have a drive. We were all experienced with manual boxes, which on occasion required a bit of brut force and ignorance. We sat round for the pep talk, and we were informed that “You don’t need to grab the gear stick, all you need with a ZF is gentle guidance with the palm of the hand, and it will do all the work for you” Guess what? He was dead right.
Ronnie Hoye
11/09/13 – 08:30
As someone who worked for Southdown for nearly 22 years I had experience of various types of Leopard as well as an assortment of East Kent Reliance on South Coast Express work I have to agree with the previous comments.
The Leopard most certainly required considerable muscle to drive the steering and all the pedals were heavy to use although I found the large treadle throttle was comfortable in use and as Ronnie Hoye says the steering had no tendency to wander unlike the Reliance which needed constant attention but was lighter to use.
The two speed axle, which was fitted to all our Leopards both buses and coaches, did indeed help the performance especially on the O.600 engine models on the later O.680 engine models it really boosted the performance, although they were something that needed to be used properly to get the best out of them which sadly all too many drivers didn’t bother to do We had a batch of seven PSU5’s in 1981 which were fitted with a splitter box a much smoother operation, the main difference being that being part of the gearbox it changed as soon as the switch was operated irrespective of throttle position whereas the two speed being part of the rear axle would only change when the throttle was released taking the load off the mechanism, so could be preselected if necessary.
Having said all that about the Leopard I still found the Reliance much more enjoyable to drive the 6 speed box being a delight to use needing only the lightest of touches to get the best from it which after the effort needed on the manual Leopard was such a pleasure the brakes were also much lighter and progressive to use. The engine always felt much more free revving and, more powerful, I only drove one semi automatic Reliance after which I still preferred the manual version.
The later Leopards with 680 engines, pneumocyclic gearboxes and high driving position were indeed much better vehicles but never as good as the 6 speed Reliance
Diesel Dave
11/09/13 – 16:30
Well, I’ve said it before – i) ZF Reliance ii) RELH/REMH – (preferably 6L) iii) TRCTL11 Tiger iv) late Leopard. That is my hall of coaching fame – with apologies to Arab LUF fans. (I neither rode on nor drove any so I cannot have a view!)
David Oldfield
12/09/13 – 08:30
Couldn’t agree more Dave, the Leopard with raised driving position, 680 engine and 5 speed pneumocyclic gearbox made a very good bus or coach.
PMT had 20 Leopard buses delivered 1962/3 with manual gearboxes which weren’t bad vehicles. It was the five coaches converted for omo that just weren’t suited to their new role. The contemporary Reliance 590 buses although better than the earlier 470s still had problems with cylinder head gaskets/cylinder liner seal failures and the hydraulically operated clutches gave a fair degree of trouble. Much easier to steer and change gear on though!
Ian Wild
12/09/13 – 08:30
No need to apologise, David, since we are talking about different eras. I have only ever said that I think the Guy Arab LUF was the finest coach chassis of its time. As for late Leopards and Reliances, the only good thing to come out of the demise of the Reliance was the Leopard with 6-speed ZF gearbox, which is what it should always have had.
Peter Williamson
12/09/13 – 16:30
The 470 and 590 lost AEC a number of friends – despite the 691 and 760 addressing most of the problems – but the ZF Reliance (especially 691/760 powered) was a thoroughbred. Leyland still didn’t get it quite right, though, Peter.
The ZF used on the Reliance was an overdrive unit (5th was direct), that used on the Leopard had a direct 6th. [Rather like the strange unit used on the X reg Midland Scottish Leopards. Ostensibly a 5 speeder with CAV change (ie like Monocontrol and not the normal Westinghouse pedestal), it was more like a 4 speeder with a crawler below 1st. I drove one in preservation and it was odd to be able to start regularly in “3rd”.
David Oldfield
11/08/14 – 17:32
AEC vs Leyland at North Western
Engineering staff at Macclesfield always told me they mistrusted AECs for always blowing gaskets. Leylands more friendly to maintain.
Bob Bracegirdle
06/03/21 – 07:09
During the early/mid 80s I travelled on National express coaches nearly every other weekend. They were mainly Leyland Leopard coaches, usually with 680s and the 5 speed air assisted box. Some did have 2 speed axles, but these were much rarer. The coaches had a. Huge gap between 4th and 5th, which affected there performance on motorway inclines, as the vehicle had to reduce speed to 50-55mph to change down. This was always where others coaches such as the Volvo B10s would come past. However, on the flat, many of these coaches would easily reach 80mph for long periods.
I once travelled on a Leopard with an early TL11 and air assisted box with twin speed axle, that was the fastest coach I ever travelled on. It only dipped to 70mph on the inclines not 55 and powered past the Volvo models by 5-10mph. It also held 80 on the flat.
Seems bizarre thinking of coaches going that fast, but at the time they would often been in the outside lane on the motorway going as fast they were capable of with the driver with his foot on the boards. The Leopards sounded great at speed, and growling around the London Victoria and Digbeth stations.
Amazing times.
Dr Chris Davies
13/03/21 – 06:36
I seem to recall that the restriction of coach/bus speed limits on motorways was because of a spate of minor accidents, then a biggy, when a coach went off the motorway and down some some sort of large drain vertically, killing a lot of pensioners. I think it was near Bristol. I think it took a while because they had to get the whole of the EU to agree the limits and a fair time for vehicles with speed governors to come along.
Chris Hebbron
15/03/21 – 06:30
I think the accident that Chris is referring to is this one:- www.independent.co.uk/
Nigel Frampton
15/03/21 – 13:36
The very one, Nigel. Thx for raking that out. Memory not so bad, after all. Now then, what was I going to do next??? Um!
Chris Hebbron
These photos taken opposite their Royal Parade garage show one of Southdown’s first ever batch of Plaxton bodies five of which numbered 1175-79 registered 175-79 DCD were delivered in January 1964 on Leopard PSU3/3RT chassis. The bodies were to C49F layout with low backed leather covered seats, a sixth numbered 1180 and registered 480 DUF arrived in March 1964 but was of C35F layout with high backed moquette seats for use on a contract with a Swedish company Linje-Tours, a role it took over from one of the front entrance Tiger Cub/Beadles either 1128 or 1129, when the contract ran out it was reseated to C49F.
I always thought that this style of Panorama body with a straight waist line was a great improvement on the previous model with it’s curved waistline although I have no aversion to curved waistlines as I still consider the Harrington Cavalier/Grenadier one of the all time classics of British coach building design.
Southdown of course went on to buy many more Plaxton bodies over the next 20 years the peak of which I think were the 1820-44 touring coaches to C32F layout delivered in 1971 registered UUF 320-44J on Leopard PSU3B/4RT chassis an absolute dream to drive.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
28/11/13 – 05:58
Absolute beauty; Plaxtons at their best. [1963-1982 to be more precise.] The Leopard, however, was at its best from the PSU3E to the PSU3G.
David Oldfield
28/11/13 – 09:57
SUT had twenty of these (ten each for 1963/1964) on 2U3RA chassis. They too had low backed “touring” seats with generous leg-room. [44 seaters as well as 48 in a 36’0″ long coach.] I have seen other examples with other operators as well. [SUT continued with low back seats for the 45 seaters on the next style of Panorama but had head-rolls on the 49s.] Was this an on delivery photograph? I see no Southdown transfers on the side. Was 1180 and example of Southdown’s famous 2 + 1 layout super luxury touring coaches?
David Oldfield
29/11/13 – 17:20
The low back coach seats must have been a mid 60s fad.
At PMT, the 1964 Duples had high backs followed in 1965 and 1967 Plaxton bodies on Reliance and Roadliner respectively with low backs then reverting to high backs with the 1968 Duple Roadliners and subsequent Duple Reliances. Or were low backed coach seats a Plaxton speciality?
Ian Wild
29/11/13 – 17:46
Only remember them on Plaxtons, Ian. […..but maybe someone out there knows better…..]
David Oldfield
02/02/14 – 16:01
1180, the Linjebuss Leopard had ‘normal’ 2+2 seating with extra legroom. It is by the way preserved but with 49 seats. The Tiger Cub which 1180 replaced was 1129 which had 32 seats, 1128 had 30 seats and was used on a tour to Moscow operated by Morlands Tours. That contract was so important to Southdown that 1124, also Tiger Cub/Beadle was kept in Brighton to the same configuration as a spare coach.
Mr Anon
13/06/14 – 15:32
Low back seats were also fitted to the Weyman Castillion bodies (1155 to 1174 and to some of the 1700 class Harrington Cavaliers when reseated from C28F to C41F. As Ian Wild says it must have been a 60’s fad.
Richard Clark
Here are two views of OUH 176G, a PSU3A/4RT Leopard with Plaxton C49F bodywork new to Western Welsh in 1969. Seen at Southampton Coach Station in March 1976, she’s in NBC white, but there are some interesting features which may help redeem her!
While the destination blind is set at blank, there is what looks like a suction pad in the nearside windscreen telling us she’s going to Portsmouth. The sticker says this is the 876. She shows the “Red & White” style of fleet number, UC 4169. The rear end shows that she still has the gold on blue fleetname, with the double N logo on the luggage compartment door.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/12/13 – 08:50
I am a little bit “AEC” about Plaxtons – a sometimes critical fan and supporter. Post-war to 1982 they generally produced a quality product, well built and finished. Experience with an acquired Regal IV led Sheffield United Tours to approach Plaxtons to build the first Panorama because it was so well built (and survived quite a bad accident). Unfortunately, they also produced more than their share of dogs – the designs of which would have scared the children and curdled the milk. The Panorama Elite is, however, an acknowledged “Classic” – but even such classics were not perfect and Mk II and III versions went on to refine and improve on the original. National white probably did less damage to the straight lines of a Panorama Elite but it was introduced before the livery. We got used to seeing it in pre-corporate liveries – and they were far better for it. [Why has this one got two different colours on the rear seat backs?]
David Oldfield
22/12/13 – 09:43
David,
Thanks for your comments. If you mean the actual seat back below the headrests, I think it’s nothing more than shadow from the adjacent wall.
Pete Davies
22/12/13 – 10:21
Yes, I see that now, Pete.
David Oldfield
22/12/13 – 10:21
Offside is in bright sunshine and n/s is in shade, an equally silly question is, what is the gobbledegook in the rear fleetname display meant to be?
Tony Gallimore
22/12/13 – 11:21
Got it. Many thanks.
Tony Gallimore
22/12/13 – 15:49
I think the service number is more likely to be 676, which was a daily service from Treherbert to Portsmouth via Cardiff, Severn Bridge, Bristol, Bath, Salisbury and Southampton. Severn Bridge (Aust Services) was used as an interchange point by National Express at that period, with services from South Wales connecting with services to the south coast. The 876 was a weekend service between Liverpool and Paignton.
David Williamson
22/12/13 – 15:50
Gobbledegook it isn’t but misleading it can be especially as Western Welsh’s route map extended as far east as the English border in the 1970’s (and over it earlier days). Though I lived in the region for several years I never understood the boundaries of Red & White’s operating area and that of Western Welsh in Monmouthshire. At that time Western Welsh seemed to have more routes in East Monmouthshire than Red & White despite that being the ‘home’ area of the latter.
Orla Nutting
23/12/13 – 06:58
I take it, Orla, that your mention of the “English border and over it in earlier days” is because of the transfer of Monmouthshire from England to Wales around 1973. You are right about the arcane nature of R & W’s boundaries and Western Welsh wasn’t Eastern Welsh! Many years ago, I recall seeing a murky wartime photo of a Miller bus waiting in Gloucester Bus Station, blinded for Abergavenny. Maybe ‘anything went’ in those times and it was unusual, but maybe not. FYI, here is a list and historical data of companies which made up the Red & White group and nationalisation. One non-bus company stands out for me and that is Bulwark, whose lorries (often Albion – no surprise there) were seen all over in the south. Ironically, I think BET took them over in the end. LINK: //tinyurl.com/kw4ztlo
Chris Hebbron
23/12/13 – 06:58
Not that it makes things any easier to understand Orla, but I read recently that, like Western National, Western Welsh referred to the Great Western Railway rather than geography.
David Oldfield
23/12/13 – 08:38
You may well be right, David W, in saying it’s the 676, but I’ve always read it as 876. Strangely enough, I never saw a vehicle on this service which actually had a service number blind. Some of the Royal Blue fleet had started to have service numbers on their blinds by this time, where it might normally have said “ASSOCIATED MOTORWAYS”.
Pete Davies
23/12/13 – 10:45
I think this has been posted elsewhere on this site. In 1929, the Great Western Railway’s bus services in South Wales were merged with those of a company called South Wales Commercial Motors. A new company, Western Welsh Omnibus Co. Ltd, was formed with a GWR share-holding.
This was during the period of large-scale acquisition of bus interests by the railways.
Geoff Kerr
23/12/13 – 11:55
My reference to the English Border in earlier days was because I believe that some WW service routes extended as far as Hereford and Gloucester (albeit they may have been joint services). When I lived in the region in the ’70’s they went only as far east as Chepstow (route 63, Blackwood to Chepstow via Usk) and as far north as Abergavenny (route 141 Abergavenny to Newport via Cwmbran). The successors to WW and R&W (National Welsh but branded R&W) did run services from Newport to Hereford and to Gloucester before that company folded and then Stagecoach took over the routes.
In the ’70’s R&W ran the service from Newport to Monmouth via Usk (service 60) which was east of the Newport-Abergavenny route and R&W ran the Newport-Blaenavon/Brynmawr via Pontypool routes which were west of the Abergavenny-Newport route but which had been part of WW services in the 1930’s.
Monmouthshire formally became part of Wales in 1974 under the local government reorganisation that created Gwent county. Before that there had been a long campaign by, primarily West Mon based, campaigners to have the county included in Wales whilst many in East Mon thought of the county as forming part of England. The present administrative district of Monmouthshire comprises largely the former east Monmouthshire.
It is correct that the ‘Western’ in the title arises from Great Western Railways’ holding in the company
Orla Nutting
23/12/13 – 14:20
To bring things up to date, Stagecoach South Wales which took over from Red & White, currently serves The Forest of Dean, Caldicot and services as far as Gloucester and Hereford.
Jim Hepburn
24/12/13 – 06:41
In fact, Jim, the Ross-on-Wye-based routes were transferred from Stagecoach South Wales to Stagecoach West in 2000 and are now branded “Stagecoach in Wye and Dean”. The 73, which originally went from Gloucester to Cardiff, was cut back to Newport, Chepstow, now only to Lydney. Hereford and Monmouth are still served.
Chris Hebbron
25/12/13 – 06:33
Ah Chris, you are forgetting the final twist in the tail of the 73. It was later extended from Lydney up through the Forest of Dean to Coleford and renumbered 23, in which form it operates today.
I do miss having a direct bus service from Gloucester to Chepstow and Newport – clearly few others did!
Rob McCaffery
25/12/13 – 11:38
Ooh, Rob, I didn’t know that! No wonder I haven’t seen a 73 around Gloucester for a while, now I come to think about it!
Chris Hebbron
27/12/13 – 17:55
Stagecoach now runs a 74/X74 Newport – Chepstow via Langstone (74 only) and Caldicot.
Newport Transport runs a 73 Newport – Chepstow via Langstone and Caerwent.
There is a separate (and infrequent) service between Lydney and Chepstow (James Bevan service 755).
Geoff Kerr
01/01/14 – 17:25
Prior to the formation of ‘National Express’, there was a daily Associated Motorways service between South Wales and Portsmouth. Some seasons the South Wales portion started from Aberdare, and others from Treherbert, but it was worked by Red & White’s Aberdare depot in both cases. The vehicle worked south one day and returned the next. When Nat Ex introduced route numbers, it acquired the number 772, but this changed to 676 after just a couple of seasons.
Once Nat Ex had become established, and the white livery prevailed, an additional, Saturdays only (at least, initially), ‘flyer’ from Treherbert to Portsmouth was added, which served only the major points, and completed the return trip within the one day. My understanding is that this journey was worked by Western Welsh’s Rhondda depot in Porth, and this can probably be confirmed since UC469 (the number carried by this vehicle prior to October ’75) was allocated to Porth in August ’75. Certainly, I only ever saw WW (or ex-Rhondda) vehicles on this working while I lived in Southampton (up to August 1975).
As far as the bus services were concerned, Red & White and WW were not true ‘area agreement’ companies, and significant parts of South East Wales were shared by the two operators. There were, however, a number of co-ordination schemes, most notably in the Monmouthshire valleys, which rationalised the operations when introduced in the mid-1960s. In that case, both companies held licenses for all of the services in the designated area, even though some were only operated by one of the companies. However many of the longer services – e.g. Newport-Brynmawr via several routes or Newport-Tredegar/Merthyr – were operated jointly. There was thus no ‘boundary’ between R&W and WW. In even earlier times it was even more complicated, as R&W had a share of the Cardiff-Barry service, while WW also worked on the Newport-Monmouth service. WW also worked to Hereford (from Brecon – service 739) as well, so they did indeed reach England.
Nigel Frampton
01/01/14 – 18:08
The ‘connexion’ between the Cardiff area and Portsmouth also extended to British Rail, who operated a regular service between the two cities, which still runs. My widowed mother used to take in her proportion of the many Welsh Summer holidaymakers, as ‘B&B guests’. I recall when the rail service was Class 33 hauled, these Southern diesel-electric locos working up to Shrewsbury at times, well outside their normal stomping ground! But I digress!
Chris Hebbron
Established in the early 1920’s, Wilkinson Motor Services were an independent based in the Durham Mining Village of Sedgefield. They had a well-maintained fleet of quality vehicles, which to the best of my knowledge were all single deck, and mostly AEC and Leyland with a couple of Bedford’s thrown in for good measure. Their livery was red and cream, with cream being the dominant colour. Other than that, I don’ t know a great deal about them. Wilkinson became part of United in 1967; when United gained control of the independent, their usual practice was that any none standard BTH vehicles acquired in the process either became part of the Durham District fleet, or were disposed of as quickly as possible, however, this was not the case with Wilkinson’s fleet. The vehicles were repainted and numbered with a ‘W’ prefix, however, this was 1967, and the new Government were about to start the formation of NBC, and is probably the reason the Wilkinson fleet survived into the new era. As we know the newly created NBC, promptly set about destroying, sorry, ‘redistributing’ long established fleets, and scattering them all over the place. The Wilkinson depot closed, but this is one of four C43F Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopard L2 coaches, 7462&3 PT from 1962 and 3564&5 UP from 1963; which stayed with United, but I’m not entirely sure where the remainder of the fleet ended up. Both Wilkinson and United, had very high standards, but for some reason ‘unless its just happened’ this one has some damage around the grill, and one of the foglights.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
22/12/14 – 07:43
The 30ft model is in my top 5 good looking coaches of all time.
Andy Fisher
23/12/14 – 09:38
I completely agree as long as you mean the 1963/64 version with the improved back end. If you saw this Wilkinsons machine from behind I think that you’d be hard pushed to describe it as a classic! Nearly 50 years on I still remain undecided about the Ogle design which replaced this model in 1965. In some liveries it looked quite futuristic and imaginative, in others weird for the sake of it. I always thought that the ex-Wilkinson coaches looked very nice in the olive green and cream United livery. Wilky’s livery was a bit bland.
Neville Mercer
24/12/14 – 06:12
Another non standard United batch were the nine Leyland Royal Tigers which looked simply glorious in the olive green and cream livery – mind you, it would be a sorry vehicle which couldn’t look good in those classic colours !!
Chris Youhill
26/12/14 – 06:47
I wonder if I may offer a few corrections and clarifications to Ronnie’s caption above.
Firstly, Sedgefield was never a mining village; it is situated just outside and to the South East of the edge of the Durham coalfield. Having said that, the closest pits – at Fishburn (closed 1973) and Bishop Middleham (closed 1936) were both only 3 miles away. Sedgefield’s background, though, is purely agricultural.
You’re quite correct, Ronnie, that the fleet was always single-deck although the services, unusually for this part of the county, didn’t pass under any low bridges. There is a mystery surrounding one particular bus (16, UP5438), however, inasmuch as, although this was an all-Leyland Lion which served Wilkie’s for 19 years between 1931 and 1950, an official Leyland photograph exists (and is shown in the Cardno/Hillerby history of Wilkinson’s Motor Services) of a Leyland Titan, apparently in the livery of a Welsh operator (Vanguard) but clearly displaying the same registration number! The distribution of AECs and Bedfords over the years was equal (8 of each) but the fleet, from 1930 onwards, was predominantly Leyland. At the time of the sale to United, however, the fleet was 7 AECs, 6 Leylands and 1 Bedford with 3 Leylands on order.
Wilkie’s ceased to exist on 26 February 1967 but your suggestion that, when United acquired non-BTH standard vehicles from an acquired independent, they were either disposed of quickly or transferred into the Durham District Services fleet is misleading. During the relatively short life of the DDS, United acquired the services of eight independents; of these, Wilkinson’s was the last. Of the others – Heather Motor Services of Robin Hood’s Bay, W.C.Radley & Son (‘Dauntless Motor Service’) of Eldon Lane (a village near Bishop Auckland), James & Mosley of Croft Spa, M Hardy of Darlington, Scott’s Greys of Darlington, Forge Valley Motors of Scarborough and Norfolk’s Motor Service of New Ridley – only Radley’s vehicles were acquired but, of the five owned, four were promptly offered for resale and only one (a Bedford SB) was taken into the fleet; it was never allocated a fleetnumber, however, never actually operated by United and sold within about four months of the takeover. Thus, no acquired vehicles were transferred to the DDS fleet although the DDS company was itself formed from the acquisition of three independents – Darlington Triumph, ABC Motor Service and the Express Omnibus Company.
The entire Wilkie’s fleet of 14 buses (two of which had originated with Scurr’s of Stillington) and coaches was taken into the United fleet as well as the 3 additional vehicles which were on order at the time of takeover and entered the United fleet between June and August of 1967; they were allocated the fleetnumbers W1-W17 rather than being given the appropriate code for their chassis type. The fleetnumber for 7462UP is correct; it was originally Wilkie’s 62, became United W5 on takeover and eventually became 4002 in the January 1969 renumbering, at which time the 17 ex-Wilkinson’s buses were all still operated.
“The Wilkinson depot closed”. Well, yes it did, but not for some years after the United takeover. The ‘depot’ at Sedgefield was actually two quite separate premises about half a mile apart. These were the Parkside garage – where W5 is photographed – on the outskirts of the village prior to its recent expansion, where the majority of the fleet was garaged and major servicing carried out, and North End, closer to the centre of the village with garaging for four buses as well as being the location of the offices, crew room and even a small filling station and car repair facility. Sedgefield depot didn’t close until November 1984. Parkside garage was demolished and developed many years ago and, today, it’s impossible to imagine that it was once a bus garage. The premises at 46 North End, however, although now the base of Wright Construction, are little changed and immediately recognisable. Shamefully, although I lived a hundred yards or so further up North End for over 30 years until a few months ago, I never photographed it in its days as a bus garage!
Alan R Hall
25/09/16 – 05:43
As a former YTC mechanic and a summertime week-end PSV driver I well remember smashing my less than a year old ‘gold 21st present watch’ whilst attempting to select gears on 1235 fleet no Leyland Leopard on the Doncaster Barnsley service. Leyland (in their wisdom) had decided to introduce a hydraulic clutch system into their early Leopards using a completely new clutch pressure plate. Why? Nobody knows. The old Tiger’s clutch was always good enough, and had served the 0600 engine well since c1949. Probably some ‘Whizz Kid’s’ idea straight from some venerable seat of learning. Anyway he cost me a new watch. £35 as I recall a heap of money at the time and almost three weeks wages.
Mr Anon
Western Welsh buses ran in a maroon livery however this smart blue and ivory was applied to coaches for a period. OUH 177G is a preserved example of the Leyland PSU3A/4RT (900597) with Plaxton Panorama Elite C49F coachwork (693263). The batch of six delivered in April 1969 were fitted with a five-speed semi-automatic gearbox and two-speed rear axle. This one is seen at the 2016 Swansea Bus Museum Running Day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
25/04/16 – 18:05
I’m surprised nobody else has commented, Les. Very nice view, and thanks for posting. I’ve been doing battle with my computer system [going back to a Windows machine from an Apple] otherwise I would have commented before.
I’m still not finished and am currently trying to get some backup copies restored by my local photographic dealer. (Most have copied happily, some have been reluctant to do all their contents and a few won’t do anything!)
It’s very pleasant to see a Western Welsh coach in “proper” colours rather than the white paint carried by her sister 176G, which I had published one these pages some while ago.
Pete Davies
28/04/16 – 07:10
I have attached a photo of Western Welsh WKG 138, an AEC Reliance 470 with a Weymann C39F body new in May 1961. It was on hire to PMT in May 1970 along with several others of the batch and is pictured outside Stoke No 1 Garage. I think this body style was unique to Western Welsh and (to my mind) could hardly be described as attractive. Hope this is of interest.
(A rather younger version of IW is in the driving seat!!!)
Ian Wild
29/04/16 – 06:13
Ian, you described the looks of WKG 138 very tactfully, although it does have its charms despite (to my eyes) looking somewhat like a frog wearing safety goggles. It must be admitted that 177 certainly leaves it standing in the beauty stakes though. The Plaxton coachwork looks simply stunning in Western Welsh’s cream and blue livery. Interesting that the Company chose blue rather than red or maroon for the coach livery. I wonder what the reasoning behind it was.
Brendan Smith
29/04/16 – 07:55
Its a shame that they had to bend the windscreen panels to fit them in.
Joe
02/05/16 – 06:43
Brendan, I believe that “powder blue” was the livery of WWOC’s predecessor South Wales Commercial Motors – although why WWOC decided to adopt it as their coach livery . . .
Philip Rushworth
02/05/16 – 14:03
Brendan’s description “a frog wearing safety goggles” is brilliant ! I can see exactly what he means.
John Stringer
02/05/16 – 14:04
Thanks for the information Philip. It’s certainly an attractive shade, especially when matched with cream/ivory.
Brendan Smith
07/05/16 – 17:31
I was never lucky enough to drive an Elite like this – when I started PSV driving in 1979 it was Supremes that we had at Salopia and then Shearings.
But when I did my HGV training at Bassetts at Stone in the 1990s they still had a few Elites older than this one (ISTR a “D” registered one at least) running around on schools contracts. I asked if they would sell me one but they said “no” on the grounds that with them being 45 instead of 53 seats, they were easier to turn into school driveways.
But out of interest, where would anyone go (apart from eBay) to find something like this for sale these days. I’d love to have my own old “Plackie” to go on day trips out.
Eric Hall
08/05/16 – 05:58
Eric – your best option is probably to buy a copy of “Bus & Coach Preservation” and keep an eye on the adverts section. It is published monthly, and I think that Plaxton Elites come up occasionally (I cannot see any in the current issue). To the best of my knowledge, the earliest Elites were G-suffix registrations. I’m not an expert, but my understanding is that the structure is not always as good as the vehicle might look – and certainly not as solid as an ECW body!
The Western Welsh blue and royal ivory coach and DP livery was actually quite short lived. It first appeared in 1965, and all new coaches and DPs delivered from 1965 to 1971 were delivered in it, as well as the 1972 coaches. Older vehicles were repainted in the blue/ivory during that period, but by 1972, the company had reverted to dark red and cream for DPs. Towards the end of the period, the fleetname was replaced with a large block lettered variety. I seem to recall reading that the shade of blue was known as “peacock”.
Nigel Frampton
09/05/16 – 16:49
I have just bought a J reg Elite. Certainly they were renowned for drooping behind the rear axle and mine was no different. 60 man hours and some steel later all sorted and MoT obtained.
Roger Burdett
10/05/16 – 06:47
When you refer to the solidity of ECW body designs, Nigel, I assume that you do not include the B51 in that description, though much of the blame lay with Leyland. The B51 was designed for the RE, but Leyland decided to fit it to underfloor engined chassis with no proper rear chassis support for the boot area.
Roger Cox
11/05/16 – 06:27
Well, Roger, I was thinking more of contemporaries to this Western Welsh vehicle, for example the first style of coach body on a Bristol RELH chassis. Those were definitely solid!
Unfortunately, under Leyland’s influence, and possibly a more general pressure to cut costs, the quality deteriorated in later years, and I have read somewhere that, for example, the second type of RELH coach body was also not as solid as its predecessor. But I agree, the B51 was poor – perhaps, the exception that proves the rule!
Nigel Frampton
11/05/16 – 06:28
The Elite is most correctly described as the ‘Panorama Elite’ although as time went by the ‘Panorama’ was dropped in everyday speak. The earliest examples were G-reg, restyling seeing the introduction of the Panorama Elite II and Panorama Elite III, the final examples being P-registered. When grant doors etc were specified, the word ‘Express’ was added to the body designation eg: Plaxton Panorama Elite II Express, which probably accounts for the general term ‘Elite’!
Philip Lamb
After the renumbering from a plain consecutive series (2777 seems to have been the highest reached) in September 1950, Ribble adopted a numbering system whereby numbers were reused. Those of the Standerwick subsidiary were in the 1-200 group. This policy was changed again after the acquisition of Scout Motor Services, whose vehicles kept their old fleet numbers, with ‘S’ prefix until the 1963 coach deliveries, when the common number series was adopted. Ribble had just the number (744, for example) but Scout had the prefix (S751, for example) while Standerwick had a (suffix, 731S), as we see above. TRN 747, in the Ribble fleet, reached Morecambe depot late in 1963 and was stored for the winter, entering service early in 1964.
TRN 731 pictured above is a Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R (though I have seen some references to PSU3/3RT chassis for this batch) with a Plaxton C49F body. We see it in North Albert Street, Fleetwood, arriving for Tram Sunday on 18 July 1999. For more precise ‘placing’ of the shot, the fire escape of the North Euston Hotel is in view top left!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
30/11/16 – 09:22
I remember travelling on one of these on a Keswick-Manchester relief. It rode very nicely,but at Kendal depot the driver disappeared into the workshops. He reappeared muttering to us all (only about10) “Well we are going home without top gear”. I had not noticed any problem, but the roads in the Lakes were not conducive to speed. As we were all going to Manchester we went on the M6. I am not certain what gearbox was in these vehicles, but the driver had no problems and the run was smooth and quiet. Somewhere along the M6 insult was added to injury when we were overtaken by one of the original Ribble group 36 footers, a Leopard/Duple that had been ordered by Scout.
Andrew Gosling
01/12/16 – 06:50
Andrew, The expression “ouch!” springs to mind.
Pete Davies
01/12/16 – 06:51
I remember this fine coach when with Ingleby York
Ken Wragg
01/12/16 – 09:09
Not having thought about”real Plaxton” bodies recently I have looked at the different models again. The design of the above is really quite simple, but to my mind is the smartest that Plaxton produced. It has a sleek business-like look. Much the same can be said of the Alexander Y type.
Please note: other makes of coach are available.
Andrew Gosling
02/12/16 – 07:14
As far as I can recall, the highest fleet number reached by a Ribble vehicle was 2797, the batch 2778-97 (CRN 978-97) comprising Burlingham bus-bodied Leyland PS2s which became 228-47 in the 1950 renumbering. I don’t remember any vehicles numbered 2798 or higher, but anyone with access to a copy of the publication ’52 Years of Ribble’, produced by the Ribble Enthusiasts Club, should be able to immediately confirm or deny whether there were such vehicles.
An interesting aspect of the 2778-97 batch was that, intentionally or otherwise, there was a last two digit match between fleet numbers and registrations, Ribble vehicles not having three-digit matching registrations until 1963. A few batches of vehicles did have a last-digit fleet/registration number match, but, prior to 1963 the only other batches I can recall with even a two-digit match were Atlanteans 1656-1700 (NRN 556-600) and 1801-14 (RRN 401-14).
David Call
The Comet was Leyland’s offering in the same market sector as Bedford’s all-conquering OB, though with a few more seats and (usually) a diesel engine. It was a purpose-built PSV chassis, sharing mechanical components with the truck of the same name and similar appearance. This Plaxton-bodied example was new to Dickson of Dundee (any connection with the Dickson who built pre-war bus bodies for Dundee Corporation?), and by 1968 was working for McLeod of Helmsdale, with whom it is seen here in the operator’s home village.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Peter Williamson
20/10/13 – 17:13
I think this is one of the best looking Comets I’ve ever seen. Perhaps not an easy chassis to body because the bonnet line was somewhat higher than other normal control models and some efforts were a little unfortunate but Plaxtons made a very nice job of this one. Pity no ‘eyebrow’ display apertures were provided but perhaps none were specified.
Chris Barker
20/10/13 – 17:14
I had a Bristol LH training bus with a Leyland Comet engine. Was this the norm for Bristol LH?
Michael Crofts
21/10/13 – 07:14
Michael. The two engines for the LH were a Perkins and the Leyland O401. The Leyland was a development of the O400 (popular in Beford VAL and VAM 14s and used in late Tiger Cubs). The O400 was the ultimate development of the original O350 used in the Tiger Cub which transited through a O375 version. All of these, in there turn, were very closely related to the O300 (and the P300) – the Comet engine.
David Oldfield
21/10/13 – 12:13
I did wonder what had happened to Perkins, suspecting it had gone the way of most of our industrial base. However, good news, it’s thriving as a subsidiary of Caterpillar Inc., but primarily a diesel engine manufacturer for Agricultural, Construction, Material Handling, Power Generation and Industrial uses nowadays.
Chris Hebbron
18/02/14 – 08:06
This vehicle operated with Williamson of Gauldry in the late 50s early 60s. Other ex Dicksons coaches with Williamsons at that time were Commer Commando Plaxton ATS 35, Austin Plaxton AYJ 153 and Daimler CVD6 Plaxton AYJ 278.
Jim Speed
18/02/14 – 11:42
Dicksons of Dundee were taken over in the 1960s by Wallace Arnold and some of their superb coaches were transferred to Leeds where I had the pleasure of working with them. I hope my memory isn’t playing tricks, but I seem to recall that the seating cloth was of a lovely tartan derived pattern.
Chris Youhill
18/02/14 – 14:35
Nice picture here of Terry and Hazel Ellin’s beautifully restored Comet/Duple. www.ipernity.com/ and some history here www.sytm.co.uk/
John Darwent
18/02/14 – 16:15
Strange John. Reading recent posts reminded me of the same – superbly renovated – vehicle.
David Oldfield