Tag: Plaxton

R Preston of Ferryhill – Tilling Stevens Express – DPT 24

R. Preston of Ferryhill - Tilling Stevens - DPT 24
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

R Preston of Ferryhill (County Durham)
193?/4? – 1938
Tilling Stevens Express
Plaxton C32F

Here is a photo of what I think is a Tilling Stevens Express, the body seems to be a Plaxton D2 pattern job which would date it to the late 1930s early 40s. We did a partial reframe of one – ugh, never forgotten the back was rotten where the sunshine roof drains had long since perished. But if the chassis is an Express then this would surely be a rebody I think. At the time of the photograph this vehicle is being operated by R. Preston on, I suspect, miner’s contract work, the condition is about right for miner’s trucks. I don’t think for a second that the vehicle was new to R Preston but I have no history of its earlier life.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Gladwin

09/11/12 – 07:52

The Durham registration DPT would date this bus to 1938.

Geoff Kerr

09/11/12 – 07:52

The radiator shape, slightly narrower and shorter than the post war variety (which was also slightly curved), suggests that this is probably a petrol engined H39A7 vehicle that was produced from about 1935 up to the cessation of wartime production. The body I cannot identify for certain, but it has definitely seen better days than the one on which the photo was taken.

Roger Cox

09/11/12 – 13:08

I’m pretty sure that this is a Plaxton D3 body. In the Venture Publishing book on Plaxton by Stewart J. Brown, there is a picture of an unidentified D3 on a Leyland Tiger chassis which has all the same features – including the distinctive, heavily arched cab and emergency door window tops, window layout, side flashes, and of course the characteristic shape of the destination boxes. It states that the design appeared towards the end of 1937.

John Stringer

27/02/13 – 06:06

TSM HA39A7, chassis number 8801, new in 5/38 to Coulson, Rushyford (part of the ABC consortium until 1946) with Plaxton C32F body. Passed to Preston, Ferryhill in 1948 and withdrawn 6/54. (Source: PSV Circle publication PA1: Durham District Services).

Dunelm

Hanworth Acorn – Seddon Pennine IV – DAN 400H

Hanworth Acorn - Seddon Pennine IV - DAN 400H

Hanworth Acorn
1970
Seddon Pennine IV
Plaxton C51F

Hanworth Acorn of Bedfont, Middlesex, was ever an enterprising operator, if not entirely wise, in its choice of vehicles. In 1958 it bought 776 LMU, one of the two rear engined Rutland Clippers made – the other was TKE 741 which went to Aston’s of Marton (though it is rumoured that a third one was constructed), both of which were fitted with Whitson C41C coachwork :- www.flickr.com/photos/
Though generally having been previously a Bedford operator, from 1970 Hanworth Acorn became firmly wedded to the recently introduced Seddon Pennine IV chassis equipped with Plaxton Panorama Elite coachwork:-

CLK 100H and CLP 200H (both C51F, 1970)
BYH 500H (C45F, 1970)
DAN 300H and DAN 400H (both C51F, 1970)
DLD 800J and DLD 900J (both C44F, 1971)
HMF 600K (C53F, 1972).

The picture shows DAN 400H at Brighton during the 16th British Coach Rally in 1970.
In the Pennine IV, the raucous Perkins 6.354 engine of 5.8 litres was fitted vertically, low down, at the front of the chassis, which had a high flat frame throughout its length. The earlier machines had the naturally aspirated version of the 6.354 which developed 120 bhp at 2800 rpm, and drove through a five speed, direct top, Eaton synchromesh gearbox and an Eaton two speed rear axle. HMF 600K had the turbocharged T6.534 giving 145 bhp (later 155 bhp) at 2800 rpm coupled with an overdrive top five speed box, and this vehicle was tested by the Commercial Motor journal in September 1971. A comment was made about the stiff and and highly sensitive steering that required perpetual correction to keep the machine in a straight line, and this resounded with my own experiences of the Pennine IV. I took one of these, albeit with Pennine bus bodywork, from Gomshall to Loughborough, and I unhesitatingly declare that it was the most horrible psv that I have ever driven in my life (though the Cummins engined Leyland Lynx runs it a close second). The racket from the engine was truly deafening, and the decidedly erratic steering characteristics were exactly as described by the CM tester. Like all vehicles with the gearbox mounted behind a front mounted engine, the gear selector was awkward to use, and the brakes and suspension seemed in keeping with the generally primitive character of the entire design. Even contemplating the handling characteristics of the Pennine IV when fitted with heavy coach bodywork makes my blood run cold. What this chassis was like when equipped with the optional 8.36 litre 170 bhp Perkins V8.510 doesn’t bear thinking about.
From 1972 Hanworth Acorn persisted with the fundamentally similar T6.354 powered replacement model, the Pennine 6 (Seddon went back to Arabic numerals) taking the following with Plaxton Coachwork:-

HYV 700K (C57F, 1/72)
LGJ 444K and LGN 222K (C51F, 2/72)
LLD 333K (C57F, 3/72)
LLY 111K (C45F, 4/72)
RLO 300L and RLO 400L (C57F, 6/73)
RLO 500L (C51F, 6/73)
SMH 100M and SMH 200M ((C57F, 6/74)

Hanworth Acorn suffered cash flow problems and ceased trading early in 1975. One wonders if the standard of “sophistication” offered by the Seddon Pennine contributed to this ignominious outcome.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

04/07/16 – 08:59

A Pennine IV has been preserved by Roger Burdett – picture and details at //www.sct61.org.uk

Ken Jones

05/07/16 – 06:47

Interesting views. I am enjoying driving mine which is fitted with a Perkins V8 540.I will give you the steering is a little twitchy but the gearbox is a delight and when cruising the V8 "noise" I find not overloud.
Maybe it has been "sorted" after 45 years and certainly the 6.354 engine had a noisy reputation whereas the V8 burbles.
Mine is fitted with Girling air over hydraulic brakes system and they are really sharp.
It will get a good test at Alton RE Running day on July 16 with full loads and all day running so be interesting to see how I feel after that

Roger Burdett

05/07/16 – 06:48

The usual wisdom is that the Pennine IV had the naturally aspirated 6.354 or the V8, and only the Pennine 6 had the T6.354. HMF 600K is described in the September 1971 Commercial Motor road test variously as Pennine VI and Pennine Six, and the test coincides with the announcement of that new model in another part of the same issue. However, BLOTW has it as a Pennine 4 (sic), so perhaps the truth is that it was built as a Pennine IV to a development spec which became the Pennine 6.

Peter Williamson

03/08/16 – 08:57

The Pennine VI is a very different animal to the Pennine IV. The Pennine VI was designed as a 12M chassis using the T6354 as the V8 was too heavy for the front axle. The Pennine VI used a totally different braking system too. I own probably the sole surviving Pennine VIs. Did my time on them and the VI was an excellent machine which certainly served us well.

Russell Price

04/08/16 – 09:10

The Pennine IV had air hydraulic brakes, whereas the Pennine 6 was equipped with a full air system. Though fundamentally very similar, the Pennine 6 chassis ended just behind the rear axle while that of the IV continued beyond to give rear support to the bodywork. Also the 6 had tubular chassis cross members instead of the channel section variety used in the IV. I note that the two present day owners of Pennine coaches are well satisfied with their machines. All I can say is that, when, with a splitting headache, I handed over that Pennine IV at Loughborough, I took a Bedford YRQ back to Surrey, and the difference was profound, like exchanging a Massey Ferguson tractor for a Rolls Royce. I had driven YRQs many times before, and admit to having had a bit of a patronising attitude towards Bedfords in general, but that visit to Loughborough imbued in me a new respect for the marque. Yes, General Motors had far greater resources than Seddon, whose products were basically an assemblage of proprietary parts, but at least it got the thing right. Mercifully, I never drove another Seddon.

Roger Cox

04/08/16 – 13:30

Roger, Think if I drove my Seddon every day I might share your opinion!

Roger Burdett

09/08/16 – 06:07

After the above revelations about the differences between the Pennine IV and 6, I have gone back to the Commercial Motor road test, and there is no doubt that they thought HMF 600K was the latter – it is described as having full air brakes and tubular chassis cross-members. The announcement of the new model can be viewed at //tinyurl.com/gphfoe4  and the road test report at //tinyurl.com/j3zbhye

Peter Williamson

12/08/16 – 11:08

The comments above are very interesting. However, some of the information is quite wrong!
Former Managing Director
Hanworth Acorn Coaches, Ltd.

Mr Anon

13/08/16 – 07:07

Well, Mr Anon, by all means put things right. We, on OBP, are entirely happy to have our errors or misapprehensions addressed. None of us on here are sensitive plants fearful of different views. That’s what makes this site the lively forum that it is.

Roger Cox

14/09/16 – 06:20

The Pennine 6 was fitted with Centrax Stopmaster brakes as later fitted to Volvo F6 trucks and later on the Bedford YNV in beefed up form. The Pennine IV had full air Girling brakes as fitted to Bedfords YRT rather than a air over hydraulic system. The Pennine 6 also featured spring parking brakes. The Pennine 6 also featured a very early use of intercooling too.

Russell Price

16/09/16 – 07:15

Just checked my workshop manual and parts books and yes the Pennine IV was on full air Girling brakes with the lever parking brake.

pen3

We ran about 10 Pennine 6s between 1975 and 1989 and would agree that when putting drivers in them for the first few days they hated them, but after that we found that they took to them and generally thought well of them.

Russell Price

16/09/16 – 08:56

Thanks for your first hand corrections and experiences of these machines, Russell. I sincerely trust that your Plaxton bodied coaches were significantly better soundproofed than the Pennine bodied bus that I drove. That thing required the driver to wear industrial specification earmuffs. I have never driven anything else so noisy. The steering was also a very suspect feature of the Pennine IV, hopelessly over sensitive.

Roger Cox

16/09/16 – 17:04

The front axle wasn’t really up to the job and we converted a couple to Bedford YRT Front axles which helped the twitchy steering, however the primary reason for the axle change was because the axle beam used to wear allowing the pins to move in the beam which would give you the steering you describe. we only had a Later Pennine IV V8 Plaxton on Demo and sent it back as it was found for our operation to be not as suitable as the Pennine 6 which we already knew well.

Incidentally one of ours was the last Hanworth Acorn coach SMH100M. Incidentally the photo is taken at the gate to the old Seddon Works at Royton at the last factory open day before closure. The chassis was assembled in the building partially visible through the gate. CDC with its 2 speed Eaton axle is a super drive and will fly and return 17-18 mpg.

Russell Price

16/09/16 – 17:05

KWW 901K

Here is a picture of the Seddon I drove up to Loughborough, Pennine IV KWW 901K, with Pennine B56F bodywork. I can’t find the negative, so I have had to scan the print. It was previously owned by the firm of Morris of Bromyard, and a picture of it may be seen on this site:- www.flickr.com/photos/nebp2/ Tillingbourne (understandably) only used it in service for a month before selling it on to Yeates in September 1977. I believe that, in order to save weight, these Seddon bus bodies did not have a full body underframe, and were attached directly to the chassis. The Perkins 6.354 was ever a raucous beast, but these Pennine bodies certainly seemed to act as effective amplifying chambers, a view confirmed by passenger trips on the Provincial examples. I have certainly never driven anything else so noisy, especially at motorway speeds.

Roger Cox

17/09/16 – 18:33

KWW was of course new to Wigmores at Dinnington and nearly made it into preservation! It lasted a good long old time in West Wales and suvived until the mid 90s! This followed on from a line of Willowbrook bodied VALs Wigmores had. Whilst i would agree the Pennine IV was a fairly crude piece of equipment by UK standards Seddon couldn’t build enough of them for their export markets where the Pennine IV with its simplicity would have been its main point. Bermuda, Phillipines, Cyprus Australia all took the Pennine IV . There was a Pennine V too , there only being one in the UK , the rest of which there were a good number built were all exported. That was a rear engined monster. Your comparison with a Bedford YRQ was interesting as I would think that there were more Pennine IVs built than YRQ Bedfords. The YRQ was a very Competent machine upon which many rural operators relied on. We were a mainly Bedford Fleet with the Seddons thrown in the mix too and a couple of Leylands too. A Mk 1 National and a Tiger bought new.

Russell Price

16/10/18 – 07:30

DAN 400H

Here is another shot of DAN 400H taken at the 1970 British Coach Rally.

Roger Cox

Ellen Smith’s Tours – Leyland Worldmaster – SDK 442

Ellen Smith's Tours - Leyland Worldmaster - SDK 442
Copyright John Stringer

Ellen Smith’s Tours (Rochdale)
1958
Leyland Royal Tiger Worldmaster
Plaxton Consort Mk.II C41C

In the mid 1950’s Leyland abandoned their heavyweight underfloor-engined Royal Tiger model in favour of the very much lighter Tiger Cub. Most export customers however required something rather more substantial, so the opportunity was taken to revamp the old Royal Tiger into a longer and even heavier duty chassis to meet their needs. So was born the Royal Tiger Worldmaster. Where the old model had only a manual gearbox option, the new one had only Pneumo-Cyclic transmission as standard.
It, along with its integral equivalent the Olympic II, went on to be – undoubtedly in my mind – the most successful model Leyland ever built.
Some home market customers still looked towards something with more clout than the Tiger Cub, and a 30ft. version to suit home market requirements was introduced – the RT3/1 bus and RT3/2 coach.
Glasgow bought a large batch of the bus version in 1956, and my own local operator – Halifax Corporation – took nine in 1958, but here climbing Bradford Road out of Stump Cross near my then home is SDK 442, a 1958 Plaxton Consort-bodied RT3/2 coach of Ellen Smith’s Tours, of Rochdale.
One of two with Smith’s, it was later rebodied with a Plaxton Panorama Elite body – surviving until the company eventually sold out, and now preserved.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

10/08/12 – 07:13

Very nice, John! I have read somewhere – but can’t lay my hands on it at present – that the "leaping tiger" logo of the Royal Tiger was based on the Ellen Smith logo which, in turn, had been inspired by a picture on a card such as used to be included in cigarette packets.

Pete Davies

10/08/12 – 07:14

A superb vehicle owned by a superb operator which offered a quality friendly service of excursions and tours from my childhood home town of Rochdale. Every other Saturday during the rugby season I would travel on an Ellen Smiths coach to Rochdale Hornets away games. Each coach had a dedicated driver who took pride in the appearance of his own vehicle. While SDK 442 was around at that time we usually travelled by one of the later Harrington Cavalier bodied 36ft Leopards but I did travel on SDK after it was rebodied.
I believe Ellen Smiths had dispensation from Leyland to use their ‘pouncing tiger’ badge as it’s fleet logo which can just be seen on the photo on the side of the coach. Perhaps someone can confirm or otherwise.

Philip Halstead

Further to my earlier post, I have found my source and can answer Philip thus, and I quote from Eric Ogden’s history of the operator, page 9:
"The striking Leaping Tiger crest applied to the sides of the coaches, first in a triangle and then in a circle, appeared in the 1930s on the Leyland Tigers. It is said that the first hand-painted image was copied from a cigarette card. This skilful freehand painting was carried out by Jack Mills who was trained as a professional painter. The design was used by Leyland as the badge for the Royal Tiger coach from 1949. The same design was used as the sign for the Royal Tiger pub in Leyland."
I hope this helps!

Pete Davies

10/08/12 – 10:47

Is this the Tiger in question www.flickr.com/photos/

John Darwent

10/08/12 – 13:47

Yes, John D, that is the tiger. It always faces "forward" on the side of the vehicle. That on the Leyland badge goes to the viewer’s right which suggests to me that they used the one from the offside of an Ellen Smith coach.

Pete Davies

Yes that’s the Tiger logo and thanks for clarifying the tie up with the Leyland badge.
To conclude the Ellen Smiths story, Harry Smith sold out to Rossendale Transport on retirement and the new owners ran the business as a separate entity for some years. The red and white livery and name were retained. I left the area shortly after and am not sure if the name still survives.

Philip Halstead

11/08/12 – 07:35

Mention of Harry Smith reminded me when I drove for Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury. We frequently went on hire to Ellen Smith. We were given a reporting time by Harry who was quite pedantic about this time. If we were due to report say at 8 a.m. he told us we were not to arrive before the stated time or else. As we had come via the M62 we often had to sit and wait just up the road and then arrive as if we had come nonstop. I was always interested in the withdrawn vehicles that were dumped at the back of the garage.

Philip Carlton

12/08/12 – 07:23

Just a point to ponder. Was there something in the water in Rochdale. Not one, not two but three top notch operators. Yelloway, Ellen Smith and the Corporation.

David Oldfield

12/08/12 – 14:43

David, probably a matter of what wasn’t in the water. The stuff down here in Hampshire is nothing like the real stuff off the Pennines!

Pete Davies

12/08/12 – 17:38

It’s that Legionella bacteria what gives Pennines water its bite!

Chris Hebbron

13/08/12 – 08:44

Did Legionella give rise to one of Harrington’s biggest mistakes?

David Oldfield

13/08/12 – 08:45

The Ellen Smith name still survives. The coaches are now all black with an orange and white tigers head and large stylised tiger stripes. The tiger theme is used in marketing with their loyalty card and a range of excursions. There is a picture on Flickr of one of their coaches at: www.flickr.com/photos/ 

David Slater

13/08/12 – 11:29

…..and the Ellen Smith Flickr group has pictures of this vehicle with it’s Elite body (as a museum exhibit) and also of ODK, rebodied in the sixties as a Panorama, in service.

David Oldfield

14/08/12 – 06:47

Nice one, David O!
Was Ellen Smith the name of the woman who started up the company, or what is the origin of this name?

Chris Hebbron

15/08/12 – 08:04

Yes, Mrs Smith’s first name was Ellen and she seems to have founded this element of the family’s interests.

Pete Davies

10/10/12 – 13:30

Philip, just read your comments about the late Harry Smith.
You mention Stanley Gath. You might remember Stanley invited a group of Ellen Smith drivers to a "Yorkshire Coach Drivers" social evening in Ravensthorpe near Dewsbury (1966). We hired a coach from a Mr. Norman Fletcher (Harry would’t let us have one) and drove across to Ravensthorpe and as I remember we had a very enjoyable night.
The outcome of this though was that for the next four years we at Ellen Smith decided to hold our own "Lancashire Coach Drivers" social evening at the end of the season. All due to Stanley Gaths hospitality in the first place.

Douglas Neal

25/10/12 – 07:10

Harry did not sell out he died Eric sold to Rossendale

Smiths Driver

11/09/13 – 08:30

My name is Helen Morris and Eric Smith was my grandad. Its great to see that people are still interested in Ellen Smith. To answer some of your questions:
1. the company was founded by Eric’s grandmother Ellen Smith using money from taking in washing/sewing.
2. Originally the company owned trucks that delivered goods during the week and could be converted for passengers at the weekend.
3. Eric worked for the family business for most of his life up to the late 90’s when he retired due to ill health, specifically lung cancer. He died in October 2000.
4. I was always told that the tigers were hand painted on by my uncle Jack Mills based on a picture on a cigarette pack.
I hope this helps.

Helen Morris

12/09/13 – 08:30

Thank you Helen, for adding to the information we hold. Do you have a photo of any older company buses that you think we’d like to see?

Chris Hebbron

25/09/13 – 18:23

Chris, here’s one of Ellen Smith’s early vehicles:- www.flickr.com/photos/ There are more if you follow through on Ellen 137’s photostream.

David Williamson

04/11/13 – 16:55

Having worked for the Accountants of Ellen Smiths the books were always spot on and Eric and Harry were controlled by I think it was Margery !! I have in my possession the original cast iron company seal of Ellen Smith (Tours) Limited which was being discarded when the Company was taken over. If anyone wants this piece of history please let me know through the site.

P Curran

05/11/13 – 10:17

I would suggest the Manchester Museum of Transport would be a good home for the seal. They even have an Ellen Smith’s coach – the one above no less with its later body! I can help arrange if necessary.

David Beilby

06/04/14 – 08:17

Two points, the Halifax Worldmasters were incredibly slow vehicles, all the more surprising given the engine size. I would prefer to wait 5 minutes extra and catch the Hebble and still be in Northowram quicker than a Worldmaster. Also they had awful tin can Weymann bodies, so I really hated them!
Second, does anyone know why Ripponden & District (coaches) and Ellen Smith both had the same, or similar, logo’s of the Tiger?

John

SDK 442_lr Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

01/06/16 – 12:09

I remember both these coaches parked up at the side of the office back in the mid 70s. They were in a far sorrier state. I played in them quite a few times. There were always feral cats giving birth to kittens. As I got older, early teens I was paid by the drivers to clean the coaches when they came back. Good happy years they used to take me everywhere.
So glad to see them in lovely working condition. Thanks for reminding me.

Vincent Tolan

H W Hunter and Sons – Leyland Tiger – CNL 425 22

H W Hunter and Sons - Leyland Tiger - CNL 425 22

H W Hunter and Sons
1948
Leyland Tiger PS1/1
Plaxton FC33F

CNL 425, a PS1/1 Leyland Tiger, seen here sporting a FC33F Plaxton body of 1956 vintage. It was one of two identical 1948 vehicles delivered new to H W Hunter and Sons of Seaton Delaval, the other being CTY 457. When new they had C33F Burlingham bodies, CTY was also rebodied by Plaxton in 1958.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

Hunters – Leyland Royal Tiger – EJR 791

Hunters - Leyland Royal Tiger - EJR 791

H W Hunter and Sons
1952
Leyland Royal Tiger
Plaxton C43F (1966)

Hunter’s were a family run business who went for quality rather than quantity. They bought well in the first place, and as we’ve seen before on this site, their vehicles were well looked after and meticulously maintained. ZV 2428 is probably an age related registration that was issued when the original was transferred to someone’s car. That number is on a vehicle that is part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection. The vehicle in question belonged to H W Hunter and Sons, and is a Leyland Royal Tiger that they bought new in 1952, it came to them as a Burlingham Seagull, and being 1952, I presume it would have been a centre entrance. In 1966, they had it rebodied by Plaxton as a C43F. This vehicle, EJR 791, has an identical history, so the question is, is this in fact the same vehicle, or was it one of a pair?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

30/06/13 – 09:42

Ronnie, nice view!
I remember some vehicles in what was then the Les Gleave Group being lengthened and rebodied in the 1960s. Roman City in Bath did the same trick – using Harrington – on at least one Royal Tiger they bought from Ribble. EJR 791, according to the PSVC preserved bus listing for 2012 is indeed ZV2428, at that time with Universal, Portlaoise.

Pete Davies

I thought ZV and similar registrations are what are popularly known as “Paddy Plates” (I claim Irish blood and am allowed to say this) -Irish registrations with the great advantage of not revealing the (venerable?) age of the coach. These seem/seemed popular with small operators who used them as “personalised” plates.

Joe

01/07/13 – 07:18

The ZV2428 Number probably means that this coach spent some time in Ireland. The ZV plate is used here for imported vehicles that come under a “vintage” registration class which covers vehicles over 30 years old.

David Jones

01/07/13 – 07:35

2048 LG

Mention of the Les Gleave Group lengthening and rebodying a number of Leyland Royal Tigers brought to mind this photo of one of these coaches taken in Eastbourne in the mid sixties registered 2048 LG the body style indicates the work was carried out around 1961/62.
There is a photo of an identical coach at that time belonging to Campings of Brighton registered 501 WLG taken at the 1964 Brighton Coach Rally posted on the SCT 61 Photo Gallery section covering Plaxtons.

Diesel Dave

01/07/13 – 10:50

Only Northern Ireland plates can be used in Britain in the way Joe describes.
ZV is used in the Irish Republic, as David suggests, when registering a vehicle older than 30 years.

Geoff Kerr

02/07/13 – 07:35

It is the same vehicle. EJR 701 is a Leyland PSU1/15 which was new to Hunter’s in March 1952 as their no 19; it had a Burlingham C41C body. In January 1966 it was rebodied by Plaxton to C43F and renumbered 27. In June 1977 it was acquired by OK Motor Services. In January 1984 it was transferred to Lockey’s which had itself been acquired by OKMS in October 1983 and was functioning at the time as an OK subsidiary; EJR carried the ‘Lockeys Burn Line’ fleetname, but OKMS livery. In August 1985 it, together with the rest of Lockey’s extant fleet, returned to OKMS with whom it remained until June 1987.

Alan Hall

06/07/13 – 16:02

I like the zero-(or possibly negative-)offset front wheels on the lengthened Royal Tiger from Diesel Dave, which give the bus a real heavy-vehicle look. One reason that I dislike wheel-trims (especially those ghastly wobbling chrome things) is that they obliterate much of a vehicle’s identity and character, and can add difficulty to a historian’s job. Thankfully, no such nonsense with 2048 LG!

Ian Thompson

28/04/15 – 07:02

This vehicle (if it is the same one) now carries registration RCI 541 (a traditional Laois plate) and is still with Universal, Portlaoise (John O’Brien). https://www.flickr.com/photos/midlanddeltic/17225777661/
I have found a couple of pics showing it carrying ZV2428 which, as suggested above, is a “heritage” plate for imported / re-registered vehicles. //victoryguy.smugmug.com/keyword/ZV2428;zv2428/

Sean Marshall

13/11/21 – 06:09

Pete Davies: In your post of 30/06/13 you have implied that Roman City had an ex-Ribble Royal Tiger lengthened and rebodied by Harrington. The only Roman City vehicle I know to have been rebodied by Harrington was FRN 982, a Tiger Cub, not Royal Tiger, ex-Scout, rather than Ribble, and it retained its original length (more or less).
The ‘Wikipedia’ page on Harrington refers to the vehicle as being ex-Ribble, so that may be where you got the Ribble connection.

David Call

Wallace Arnold Tours – Leyland Leopard – Plaxton – BNW 603C

Wallace Arnold - Leyland Leopard - Plaxton - BNW 603C

Wallace Arnold Tours Leeds
1965
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R
Plaxton Panorama C49C

BNW 603C was one of the 1965 batch of Leyland Leopards with WA’s specified centre-entrance Plaxton Panorama bodies. This is an official publicity photograph taken at Roundhay Park, Leeds immediately after delivery. Judging by the trees, it must have been taken in early April (it’s documented delivery month), and I suspect that the roof lights would soon have been closed after the photographs were taken. Perhaps this coach was to be entered in the 1965 Blackpool and Brighton Coach Rallies, so the non-standard chrome wheel trims would be retained until after the events, and then removed in favour of the standard red paint trim.
As a final observation, why has this “Panorama” got the “Embassy” badge attached to the front off-side panel?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood

19/02/12 – 07:44

…..because it IS an Embassy and not a Panorama! The Panorama has fixed windows and forced air ventilation, The Embassy has (multiple) slider vents and no forced air ventilation. This, along with centre entrances, was a WA special specification for years.
There was a gradual move towards standard Plaxton specification during the sixties. This vehicle certainly has Panorama moldings and ribbed metal detail but it was only with the 1968 F registered vehicles that WA received standard Panoramas. [From 1967, Plaxton renamed and labelled the Panorama as Panorama I and the Embassy as Panorama II. To muddy the water even more, the Embassy on a Bedford VAL was originally called a Val and on a Bedford VAM a Vam!]
This was Plaxton emerging into it’s high point in history. Regrettably, wooden frames – common on all coach bodies – means that few coaches have survived into preservation compared with service buses.

David Oldfield

19/02/12 – 09:00

A most interesting feature Paul from our days at WA – I was unaware of all these finer details about Plaxton/WA specifications and trim. I’ve just hurried to my records and find that I never encountered this coach, but I did drive three others of the batch. I can well see the wisdom of removing the fancy wheel trims promptly, as the heavy Leopards were short on braking stamina as is well known, and any extra optional heat build up was not to be recommended.

Chris Youhill

19/02/12 – 14:06

BNW 603C was indeed WA’s entry in the 1965 Blackpool Coach Rally, driven by Eric Patrickson. They also entered BNW 633C, a Ford 676E/Duple C51F from the Feather fleet. But WA did not enter any coaches in the Brighton Rally.

Dave Williamson

19/02/12 – 16:44

One of this batch the number which is lost in the shadow of time was rebodied and reregistered by Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury. Perhaps someone remembers its new identity.

Philip Carlton

19/02/12 – 16:47

Whoops!
You’re right, David, muddy waters indeed, and I’m sure you are technically correct in what you say. However, to me – if they have panoramic windows, they are Panoramas.
The last of the “official” WA Embassys in 1962, albeit stretched to 36ft, had small windows and a bulbous front and rear – totally unlike a Panorama. I now discover that WA’s 1963 and 64 intake of coaches with Panorama-like bodies were also badged as Embassys.
What is even more strange is that, according to Plaxton history, the Embassy style was designed for lightweight chassis, even though the lightweight VAMs and VALs of the same period had “official” Panorama bodies!
Thankfully, common sense seemed to prevail and the name Panorama-1 became universal for this style of bodywork, albeit with a front-entrance.

Beam me up, Scottie!

Paul Haywood

…..and talking of special WA specifications…..
Woodgrain veneer/formica was the normal finish on both Duples and Plaxtons in the ’60s – which got darker and darker as the decade progressed. The exceptions were these self same WA centre entrance specials which had a very light non standard finish. I never rode on any but “observed” many on holidays in Devon and Cornwall. My hazy memory recalls a light greeny/grey hue with sunshine motifs – but whatever it was, it was unique to WA.

David Oldfield

20/02/12 – 09:05

The point is that from the 1963 season onwards, ALL 36-foot Plaxton bodies had long windows, but not all 36-foot Plaxton bodies were Panoramas. All the evidence says that until the introduction of the Panorama II, the Panorama was fiercely protected as a premium product by the application of three rules: it must have fixed windows, it must have a front entrance and it must be on a heavyweight chassis.

Peter Williamson

20/02/12 – 09:06

It’s strange how the space where the air scoop would have been doesn’t have a glazed quarterlight. Obviously it’s a coach which could be more than adequately ventilated, the trouble was, even on the coldest of days, there was always someone who wanted a window open! With regard to the name, don’t forget the Venturer appeared in several different forms but was it still the Venturer? The Embassys which Paul mentions with the bulbous front had a wonderful stately air about them (when fitted to underfloor engined chassis) the aristocrats of the road!

Chris Barker

21/02/12 – 07:20

Many Plaxton coaches of the 50s and early 60s appeared in three different forms at the same time, quite apart from variations year on year. These were:
1. underfloor engined with centre entrance (bulbous front)
2. underfloor engined with front entrance (flat front)
3. front engined with entrance behind front wheel.
There were cases where these different versions had different windscreens and/or grilles, and once the Panorama got added to the mix, it took dedicated study to work out what was what.

Peter Williamson

26/02/12 – 07:24

Having just seen a couple of photos of 1965 Bedford SBs with Panorama bodies (of the type later badged as Panorama I), I must modify slightly something I said above: it seems that the embargo on “lightweight” Panoramas was lifted with the Ogle restyling for the 1965 coaching season.

Peter Williamson

PMT – Leyland Leopard – 920 UVT – C920

Potteries Motor Traction - Leyland Leopard - 920 UVT - C920 1962

Potteries Motor Traction
1962
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R
Plaxton Panorama C48F

C920 was one of a batch of five Leyland Leopard coaches to the recently permitted 36ft length delivered in 1962.
They were used on tours until 1968 when they were modified for one man operation which included fitting the roof mounted destination box. During my time at PMT they were allocated to Hanley Depot where they were reasonably suited to the longer distance services such as Hanley – Sandbach, Hanley – Crewe etc but not good on the more urban routes. My recollection is heavy steering, heavy clutch and heavy gear change – in fact they were just a heavy vehicle! The next batch of coaches were Reliance 590s, a much more lively and lighter vehicle to drive. (That should suit David O)!
The photo is taken in the preservation era on 9th September 1979 at the West Riding 75th Anniversary Rally at Belle Isle Depot in Wakefield. The programme records it as recently acquired by the Potteries Omnibus Preservation Society – I wonder if it is still around?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

08/09/13 – 08:30

You know me so well, Ian. Maybe that’s the real reason SUT got 333? Did it escape from an intended batch of six for PMT? Not only were they heavy, heavy, heavy, they had that low cramped driving position and – care of gear ratios – slow. I commuted regularly on the X48 to Manchester and initially it was on North Western’s early Y types on the same chassis. Only once did I get the feeling that they could be good with a driver who managed to DRIVE the thing – keeping the thing in third at the CORRECT revs and storming over the hills on Woodhead. Being an AEC man doesn’t prevent me saying that the Leopard eventually developed in its later years into a good coach – but they never got the ratios right on the standard Pneumo-cyclic box.

David Oldfield

PS: The roof box looks like one of those virtual reality head sets.

09/09/13 – 06:41

David’s comments about North Western’s early Y types is interesting. I regularly rode on those as a teenager on the X5 services to and from London and from a passenger’s point of view they were certainly lively enough on the flat and the more gentle gradients.
I also rode Western Scottish’s versions to and from Glasgow. The A6 over Shap and A74 over Beattock never seemed to present a problem, even when having to get around some fairly slow moving eight wheelers from Southall and Leyland which, when laden and often drawing a trailer, would really struggle.
Given Ian’s recollections regarding the heavy handling of the vehicle, it strikes me as a little odd that North Western, as a keen user of both AEC and Leyland, put all its coach eggs in the Leyland basket from the early 1960s onwards with the Leopard as the chosen chassis.

Phil Blinkhorn

09/09/13 – 09:00

The only area where the early Leopards were superior to the AEC was that they went in the direction you turned the wheel, where as the AEC’s had a tendency to wander. But you’re right about the later Leopard’s David, however, an AEC Reliance with a six speed ZF would knock spots off any Leopard, perhaps that’s why BL ‘not Leyland Motors’ killed if off?

Ronnie Hoye

09/09/13 – 14:15

SUT’s drivers hated 333 [it was the same age and identical to PMT C920] for the reasons stated. The next Leopards only arrived, in the mid ’70s, after NBC take over. I drove a 1976 example with a subsequent owner and was agreeably surprised by how it performed. By then a higher driving position, power steering and the 5 speed pneumo-cyclic box (not to mention a bigger engine) had addressed a number of the earlier criticisms. Ian’s (and SUT’s) criticisms were widespread but the Leopard did have some virtues – but maybe more for the engineer than the driver. It was, to quote a Commercial Motor journalist who was/is also an operator, a reliable plodder. When I once put Phil’s question to a North Western driver he said, “Well the Leopard – especially semi-auto – is nigh on idiot proof but not every one can drive a six speed ZF.” Chris Y and Ian will agree that a ZF is not difficult if you drive properly (that is sensitively) but I know people, who ought to know better, who can’t! Lots of Leopard coaches had two speed rear axles. I always find these fun. There’s a sense of achievement using the splitter well – and this no doubt helped the performance of early Leopards. If you were a Leyland fleet, there was no doubt enough to keep you faithful – but I preferred the (Ribble) Leyland engined REs on the Manchester – Scotland services.

David Oldfield

10/09/13 – 16:30

I was still at Percy Main the first time I encountered an AEC Reliance with a ZF box, a Duple bodied demonstrator turned up, and those of us who were around at the time were invited to have a drive. We were all experienced with manual boxes, which on occasion required a bit of brut force and ignorance. We sat round for the pep talk, and we were informed that “You don’t need to grab the gear stick, all you need with a ZF is gentle guidance with the palm of the hand, and it will do all the work for you” Guess what? He was dead right.

Ronnie Hoye

11/09/13 – 08:30

As someone who worked for Southdown for nearly 22 years I had experience of various types of Leopard as well as an assortment of East Kent Reliance on South Coast Express work I have to agree with the previous comments.
The Leopard most certainly required considerable muscle to drive the steering and all the pedals were heavy to use although I found the large treadle throttle was comfortable in use and as Ronnie Hoye says the steering had no tendency to wander unlike the Reliance which needed constant attention but was lighter to use.
The two speed axle, which was fitted to all our Leopards both buses and coaches, did indeed help the performance especially on the O.600 engine models on the later O.680 engine models it really boosted the performance, although they were something that needed to be used properly to get the best out of them which sadly all too many drivers didn’t bother to do We had a batch of seven PSU5’s in 1981 which were fitted with a splitter box a much smoother operation, the main difference being that being part of the gearbox it changed as soon as the switch was operated irrespective of throttle position whereas the two speed being part of the rear axle would only change when the throttle was released taking the load off the mechanism, so could be preselected if necessary.
Having said all that about the Leopard I still found the Reliance much more enjoyable to drive the 6 speed box being a delight to use needing only the lightest of touches to get the best from it which after the effort needed on the manual Leopard was such a pleasure the brakes were also much lighter and progressive to use. The engine always felt much more free revving and, more powerful, I only drove one semi automatic Reliance after which I still preferred the manual version.
The later Leopards with 680 engines, pneumocyclic gearboxes and high driving position were indeed much better vehicles but never as good as the 6 speed Reliance

Diesel Dave

11/09/13 – 16:30

Well, I’ve said it before – i) ZF Reliance ii) RELH/REMH – (preferably 6L) iii) TRCTL11 Tiger iv) late Leopard. That is my hall of coaching fame – with apologies to Arab LUF fans. (I neither rode on nor drove any so I cannot have a view!)

David Oldfield

12/09/13 – 08:30

Couldn’t agree more Dave, the Leopard with raised driving position, 680 engine and 5 speed pneumocyclic gearbox made a very good bus or coach.
PMT had 20 Leopard buses delivered 1962/3 with manual gearboxes which weren’t bad vehicles. It was the five coaches converted for omo that just weren’t suited to their new role. The contemporary Reliance 590 buses although better than the earlier 470s still had problems with cylinder head gaskets/cylinder liner seal failures and the hydraulically operated clutches gave a fair degree of trouble. Much easier to steer and change gear on though!

Ian Wild

12/09/13 – 08:30

No need to apologise, David, since we are talking about different eras. I have only ever said that I think the Guy Arab LUF was the finest coach chassis of its time. As for late Leopards and Reliances, the only good thing to come out of the demise of the Reliance was the Leopard with 6-speed ZF gearbox, which is what it should always have had.

Peter Williamson

12/09/13 – 16:30

The 470 and 590 lost AEC a number of friends – despite the 691 and 760 addressing most of the problems – but the ZF Reliance (especially 691/760 powered) was a thoroughbred. Leyland still didn’t get it quite right, though, Peter.
The ZF used on the Reliance was an overdrive unit (5th was direct), that used on the Leopard had a direct 6th. [Rather like the strange unit used on the X reg Midland Scottish Leopards. Ostensibly a 5 speeder with CAV change (ie like Monocontrol and not the normal Westinghouse pedestal), it was more like a 4 speeder with a crawler below 1st. I drove one in preservation and it was odd to be able to start regularly in “3rd”.

David Oldfield

11/08/14 – 17:32

AEC vs Leyland at North Western
Engineering staff at Macclesfield always told me they mistrusted AECs for always blowing gaskets. Leylands more friendly to maintain.

Bob Bracegirdle

06/03/21 – 07:09

During the early/mid 80s I travelled on National express coaches nearly every other weekend. They were mainly Leyland Leopard coaches, usually with 680s and the 5 speed air assisted box. Some did have 2 speed axles, but these were much rarer. The coaches had a. Huge gap between 4th and 5th, which affected there performance on motorway inclines, as the vehicle had to reduce speed to 50-55mph to change down. This was always where others coaches such as the Volvo B10s would come past. However, on the flat, many of these coaches would easily reach 80mph for long periods.
I once travelled on a Leopard with an early TL11 and air assisted box with twin speed axle, that was the fastest coach I ever travelled on. It only dipped to 70mph on the inclines not 55 and powered past the Volvo models by 5-10mph. It also held 80 on the flat.
Seems bizarre thinking of coaches going that fast, but at the time they would often been in the outside lane on the motorway going as fast they were capable of with the driver with his foot on the boards. The Leopards sounded great at speed, and growling around the London Victoria and Digbeth stations.
Amazing times.

Dr Chris Davies

13/03/21 – 06:36

I seem to recall that the restriction of coach/bus speed limits on motorways was because of a spate of minor accidents, then a biggy, when a coach went off the motorway and down some some sort of large drain vertically, killing a lot of pensioners. I think it was near Bristol. I think it took a while because they had to get the whole of the EU to agree the limits and a fair time for vehicles with speed governors to come along.

Chris Hebbron

15/03/21 – 06:30

I think the accident that Chris is referring to is this one:- www.independent.co.uk/

Nigel Frampton

15/03/21 – 13:36

The very one, Nigel. Thx for raking that out. Memory not so bad, after all. Now then, what was I going to do next??? Um!

Chris Hebbron

Southdown – Leyland Leopard – 179 DCD – 1179

Southdown - Leyland Leopard - 179 DCD - 1179
Southdown - Leyland Leopard - 179 DCD - 1179

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1964
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT
Plaxton C49F

These photos taken opposite their Royal Parade garage show one of Southdown’s first ever batch of Plaxton bodies five of which numbered 1175-79 registered 175-79 DCD were delivered in January 1964 on Leopard PSU3/3RT chassis. The bodies were to C49F layout with low backed leather covered seats, a sixth numbered 1180 and registered 480 DUF arrived in March 1964 but was of C35F layout with high backed moquette seats for use on a contract with a Swedish company Linje-Tours, a role it took over from one of the front entrance Tiger Cub/Beadles either 1128 or 1129, when the contract ran out it was reseated to C49F.
I always thought that this style of Panorama body with a straight waist line was a great improvement on the previous model with it’s curved waistline although I have no aversion to curved waistlines as I still consider the Harrington Cavalier/Grenadier one of the all time classics of British coach building design.
Southdown of course went on to buy many more Plaxton bodies over the next 20 years the peak of which I think were the 1820-44 touring coaches to C32F layout delivered in 1971 registered UUF 320-44J on Leopard PSU3B/4RT chassis an absolute dream to drive.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

28/11/13 – 05:58

Absolute beauty; Plaxtons at their best. [1963-1982 to be more precise.] The Leopard, however, was at its best from the PSU3E to the PSU3G.

David Oldfield

28/11/13 – 09:57

SUT had twenty of these (ten each for 1963/1964) on 2U3RA chassis. They too had low backed “touring” seats with generous leg-room. [44 seaters as well as 48 in a 36’0″ long coach.] I have seen other examples with other operators as well. [SUT continued with low back seats for the 45 seaters on the next style of Panorama but had head-rolls on the 49s.] Was this an on delivery photograph? I see no Southdown transfers on the side. Was 1180 and example of Southdown’s famous 2 + 1 layout super luxury touring coaches?

David Oldfield

29/11/13 – 17:20

The low back coach seats must have been a mid 60s fad.
At PMT, the 1964 Duples had high backs followed in 1965 and 1967 Plaxton bodies on Reliance and Roadliner respectively with low backs then reverting to high backs with the 1968 Duple Roadliners and subsequent Duple Reliances. Or were low backed coach seats a Plaxton speciality?

Ian Wild

29/11/13 – 17:46

Only remember them on Plaxtons, Ian. […..but maybe someone out there knows better…..]

David Oldfield

02/02/14 – 16:01

1180, the Linjebuss Leopard had ‘normal’ 2+2 seating with extra legroom. It is by the way preserved but with 49 seats. The Tiger Cub which 1180 replaced was 1129 which had 32 seats, 1128 had 30 seats and was used on a tour to Moscow operated by Morlands Tours. That contract was so important to Southdown that 1124, also Tiger Cub/Beadle was kept in Brighton to the same configuration as a spare coach.

Mr Anon

13/06/14 – 15:32

Low back seats were also fitted to the Weyman Castillion bodies (1155 to 1174 and to some of the 1700 class Harrington Cavaliers when reseated from C28F to C41F. As Ian Wild says it must have been a 60’s fad.

Richard Clark

Western Welsh – Leyland Leopard – OUH 176G – UC 4169

Western Welsh - Leyland Leopard - OUH 176G - UC 4169
Western Welsh - Leyland Leopard - OUH 176G - UC 4169

Western Welsh
1969
Leyland Leopard PSU3A/4RT
Plaxton C49F

Here are two views of OUH 176G, a PSU3A/4RT Leopard with Plaxton C49F bodywork new to Western Welsh in 1969. Seen at Southampton Coach Station in March 1976, she’s in NBC white, but there are some interesting features which may help redeem her!
While the destination blind is set at blank, there is what looks like a suction pad in the nearside windscreen telling us she’s going to Portsmouth. The sticker says this is the 876. She shows the “Red & White” style of fleet number, UC 4169. The rear end shows that she still has the gold on blue fleetname, with the double N logo on the luggage compartment door.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

22/12/13 – 08:50

I am a little bit “AEC” about Plaxtons – a sometimes critical fan and supporter. Post-war to 1982 they generally produced a quality product, well built and finished. Experience with an acquired Regal IV led Sheffield United Tours to approach Plaxtons to build the first Panorama because it was so well built (and survived quite a bad accident). Unfortunately, they also produced more than their share of dogs – the designs of which would have scared the children and curdled the milk. The Panorama Elite is, however, an acknowledged “Classic” – but even such classics were not perfect and Mk II and III versions went on to refine and improve on the original. National white probably did less damage to the straight lines of a Panorama Elite but it was introduced before the livery. We got used to seeing it in pre-corporate liveries – and they were far better for it. [Why has this one got two different colours on the rear seat backs?]

David Oldfield

22/12/13 – 09:43

David,
Thanks for your comments. If you mean the actual seat back below the headrests, I think it’s nothing more than shadow from the adjacent wall.

Pete Davies

22/12/13 – 10:21

Yes, I see that now, Pete.

David Oldfield

22/12/13 – 10:21

Offside is in bright sunshine and n/s is in shade, an equally silly question is, what is the gobbledegook in the rear fleetname display meant to be?

Tony Gallimore

ww

22/12/13 – 11:21

Got it. Many thanks.

Tony Gallimore

22/12/13 – 15:49

I think the service number is more likely to be 676, which was a daily service from Treherbert to Portsmouth via Cardiff, Severn Bridge, Bristol, Bath, Salisbury and Southampton. Severn Bridge (Aust Services) was used as an interchange point by National Express at that period, with services from South Wales connecting with services to the south coast. The 876 was a weekend service between Liverpool and Paignton.

David Williamson

22/12/13 – 15:50

Gobbledegook it isn’t but misleading it can be especially as Western Welsh’s route map extended as far east as the English border in the 1970’s (and over it earlier days). Though I lived in the region for several years I never understood the boundaries of Red & White’s operating area and that of Western Welsh in Monmouthshire. At that time Western Welsh seemed to have more routes in East Monmouthshire than Red & White despite that being the ‘home’ area of the latter.

Orla Nutting

23/12/13 – 06:58

I take it, Orla, that your mention of the “English border and over it in earlier days” is because of the transfer of Monmouthshire from England to Wales around 1973. You are right about the arcane nature of R & W’s boundaries and Western Welsh wasn’t Eastern Welsh! Many years ago, I recall seeing a murky wartime photo of a Miller bus waiting in Gloucester Bus Station, blinded for Abergavenny. Maybe ‘anything went’ in those times and it was unusual, but maybe not. FYI, here is a list and historical data of companies which made up the Red & White group and nationalisation. One non-bus company stands out for me and that is Bulwark, whose lorries (often Albion – no surprise there) were seen all over in the south. Ironically, I think BET took them over in the end. LINK: //tinyurl.com/kw4ztlo

Chris Hebbron

23/12/13 – 06:58

Not that it makes things any easier to understand Orla, but I read recently that, like Western National, Western Welsh referred to the Great Western Railway rather than geography.

David Oldfield

23/12/13 – 08:38

You may well be right, David W, in saying it’s the 676, but I’ve always read it as 876. Strangely enough, I never saw a vehicle on this service which actually had a service number blind. Some of the Royal Blue fleet had started to have service numbers on their blinds by this time, where it might normally have said “ASSOCIATED MOTORWAYS”.

Pete Davies

ww_2
ww_3

23/12/13 – 10:45

I think this has been posted elsewhere on this site. In 1929, the Great Western Railway’s bus services in South Wales were merged with those of a company called South Wales Commercial Motors. A new company, Western Welsh Omnibus Co. Ltd, was formed with a GWR share-holding.
This was during the period of large-scale acquisition of bus interests by the railways.

Geoff Kerr

23/12/13 – 11:55

My reference to the English Border in earlier days was because I believe that some WW service routes extended as far as Hereford and Gloucester (albeit they may have been joint services). When I lived in the region in the ’70’s they went only as far east as Chepstow (route 63, Blackwood to Chepstow via Usk) and as far north as Abergavenny (route 141 Abergavenny to Newport via Cwmbran). The successors to WW and R&W (National Welsh but branded R&W) did run services from Newport to Hereford and to Gloucester before that company folded and then Stagecoach took over the routes.
In the ’70’s R&W ran the service from Newport to Monmouth via Usk (service 60) which was east of the Newport-Abergavenny route and R&W ran the Newport-Blaenavon/Brynmawr via Pontypool routes which were west of the Abergavenny-Newport route but which had been part of WW services in the 1930’s.
Monmouthshire formally became part of Wales in 1974 under the local government reorganisation that created Gwent county. Before that there had been a long campaign by, primarily West Mon based, campaigners to have the county included in Wales whilst many in East Mon thought of the county as forming part of England. The present administrative district of Monmouthshire comprises largely the former east Monmouthshire.
It is correct that the ‘Western’ in the title arises from Great Western Railways’ holding in the company

Orla Nutting

23/12/13 – 14:20

To bring things up to date, Stagecoach South Wales which took over from Red & White, currently serves The Forest of Dean, Caldicot and services as far as Gloucester and Hereford.

Jim Hepburn

24/12/13 – 06:41

In fact, Jim, the Ross-on-Wye-based routes were transferred from Stagecoach South Wales to Stagecoach West in 2000 and are now branded “Stagecoach in Wye and Dean”. The 73, which originally went from Gloucester to Cardiff, was cut back to Newport, Chepstow, now only to Lydney. Hereford and Monmouth are still served.

Chris Hebbron

25/12/13 – 06:33

Ah Chris, you are forgetting the final twist in the tail of the 73. It was later extended from Lydney up through the Forest of Dean to Coleford and renumbered 23, in which form it operates today.
I do miss having a direct bus service from Gloucester to Chepstow and Newport – clearly few others did!

Rob McCaffery

25/12/13 – 11:38

Ooh, Rob, I didn’t know that! No wonder I haven’t seen a 73 around Gloucester for a while, now I come to think about it!

Chris Hebbron

27/12/13 – 17:55

Stagecoach now runs a 74/X74 Newport – Chepstow via Langstone (74 only) and Caldicot.
Newport Transport runs a 73 Newport – Chepstow via Langstone and Caerwent.
There is a separate (and infrequent) service between Lydney and Chepstow (James Bevan service 755).

Geoff Kerr

01/01/14 – 17:25

Prior to the formation of ‘National Express’, there was a daily Associated Motorways service between South Wales and Portsmouth. Some seasons the South Wales portion started from Aberdare, and others from Treherbert, but it was worked by Red & White’s Aberdare depot in both cases. The vehicle worked south one day and returned the next. When Nat Ex introduced route numbers, it acquired the number 772, but this changed to 676 after just a couple of seasons.
Once Nat Ex had become established, and the white livery prevailed, an additional, Saturdays only (at least, initially), ‘flyer’ from Treherbert to Portsmouth was added, which served only the major points, and completed the return trip within the one day. My understanding is that this journey was worked by Western Welsh’s Rhondda depot in Porth, and this can probably be confirmed since UC469 (the number carried by this vehicle prior to October ’75) was allocated to Porth in August ’75. Certainly, I only ever saw WW (or ex-Rhondda) vehicles on this working while I lived in Southampton (up to August 1975).
As far as the bus services were concerned, Red & White and WW were not true ‘area agreement’ companies, and significant parts of South East Wales were shared by the two operators. There were, however, a number of co-ordination schemes, most notably in the Monmouthshire valleys, which rationalised the operations when introduced in the mid-1960s. In that case, both companies held licenses for all of the services in the designated area, even though some were only operated by one of the companies. However many of the longer services – e.g. Newport-Brynmawr via several routes or Newport-Tredegar/Merthyr – were operated jointly. There was thus no ‘boundary’ between R&W and WW. In even earlier times it was even more complicated, as R&W had a share of the Cardiff-Barry service, while WW also worked on the Newport-Monmouth service. WW also worked to Hereford (from Brecon – service 739) as well, so they did indeed reach England.

Nigel Frampton

01/01/14 – 18:08

The ‘connexion’ between the Cardiff area and Portsmouth also extended to British Rail, who operated a regular service between the two cities, which still runs. My widowed mother used to take in her proportion of the many Welsh Summer holidaymakers, as ‘B&B guests’. I recall when the rail service was Class 33 hauled, these Southern diesel-electric locos working up to Shrewsbury at times, well outside their normal stomping ground! But I digress!

Chris Hebbron

United Automobile – Leyland Leopard – 7462 PT – W 5 ?

7462 PT

United Automobile Services
1962
Leyland Leopard L2
Plaxton C43F

Established in the early 1920’s, Wilkinson Motor Services were an independent based in the Durham Mining Village of Sedgefield. They had a well-maintained fleet of quality vehicles, which to the best of my knowledge were all single deck, and mostly AEC and Leyland with a couple of Bedford’s thrown in for good measure. Their livery was red and cream, with cream being the dominant colour. Other than that, I don’ t know a great deal about them. Wilkinson became part of United in 1967; when United gained control of the independent, their usual practice was that any none standard BTH vehicles acquired in the process either became part of the Durham District fleet, or were disposed of as quickly as possible, however, this was not the case with Wilkinson’s fleet. The vehicles were repainted and numbered with a ‘W’ prefix, however, this was 1967, and the new Government were about to start the formation of NBC, and is probably the reason the Wilkinson fleet survived into the new era. As we know the newly created NBC, promptly set about destroying, sorry, ‘redistributing’ long established fleets, and scattering them all over the place. The Wilkinson depot closed, but this is one of four C43F Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopard L2 coaches, 7462&3 PT from 1962 and 3564&5 UP from 1963; which stayed with United, but I’m not entirely sure where the remainder of the fleet ended up. Both Wilkinson and United, had very high standards, but for some reason ‘unless its just happened’ this one has some damage around the grill, and one of the foglights.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

22/12/14 – 07:43

The 30ft model is in my top 5 good looking coaches of all time.

Andy Fisher

23/12/14 – 09:38

I completely agree as long as you mean the 1963/64 version with the improved back end. If you saw this Wilkinsons machine from behind I think that you’d be hard pushed to describe it as a classic! Nearly 50 years on I still remain undecided about the Ogle design which replaced this model in 1965. In some liveries it looked quite futuristic and imaginative, in others weird for the sake of it. I always thought that the ex-Wilkinson coaches looked very nice in the olive green and cream United livery. Wilky’s livery was a bit bland.

Neville Mercer

24/12/14 – 06:12

Another non standard United batch were the nine Leyland Royal Tigers which looked simply glorious in the olive green and cream livery – mind you, it would be a sorry vehicle which couldn’t look good in those classic colours !!

Chris Youhill

26/12/14 – 06:47

I wonder if I may offer a few corrections and clarifications to Ronnie’s caption above.
Firstly, Sedgefield was never a mining village; it is situated just outside and to the South East of the edge of the Durham coalfield. Having said that, the closest pits – at Fishburn (closed 1973) and Bishop Middleham (closed 1936) were both only 3 miles away. Sedgefield’s background, though, is purely agricultural.
You’re quite correct, Ronnie, that the fleet was always single-deck although the services, unusually for this part of the county, didn’t pass under any low bridges. There is a mystery surrounding one particular bus (16, UP5438), however, inasmuch as, although this was an all-Leyland Lion which served Wilkie’s for 19 years between 1931 and 1950, an official Leyland photograph exists (and is shown in the Cardno/Hillerby history of Wilkinson’s Motor Services) of a Leyland Titan, apparently in the livery of a Welsh operator (Vanguard) but clearly displaying the same registration number! The distribution of AECs and Bedfords over the years was equal (8 of each) but the fleet, from 1930 onwards, was predominantly Leyland. At the time of the sale to United, however, the fleet was 7 AECs, 6 Leylands and 1 Bedford with 3 Leylands on order.
Wilkie’s ceased to exist on 26 February 1967 but your suggestion that, when United acquired non-BTH standard vehicles from an acquired independent, they were either disposed of quickly or transferred into the Durham District Services fleet is misleading. During the relatively short life of the DDS, United acquired the services of eight independents; of these, Wilkinson’s was the last. Of the others – Heather Motor Services of Robin Hood’s Bay, W.C.Radley & Son (‘Dauntless Motor Service’) of Eldon Lane (a village near Bishop Auckland), James & Mosley of Croft Spa, M Hardy of Darlington, Scott’s Greys of Darlington, Forge Valley Motors of Scarborough and Norfolk’s Motor Service of New Ridley – only Radley’s vehicles were acquired but, of the five owned, four were promptly offered for resale and only one (a Bedford SB) was taken into the fleet; it was never allocated a fleetnumber, however, never actually operated by United and sold within about four months of the takeover. Thus, no acquired vehicles were transferred to the DDS fleet although the DDS company was itself formed from the acquisition of three independents – Darlington Triumph, ABC Motor Service and the Express Omnibus Company.
The entire Wilkie’s fleet of 14 buses (two of which had originated with Scurr’s of Stillington) and coaches was taken into the United fleet as well as the 3 additional vehicles which were on order at the time of takeover and entered the United fleet between June and August of 1967; they were allocated the fleetnumbers W1-W17 rather than being given the appropriate code for their chassis type. The fleetnumber for 7462UP is correct; it was originally Wilkie’s 62, became United W5 on takeover and eventually became 4002 in the January 1969 renumbering, at which time the 17 ex-Wilkinson’s buses were all still operated.
“The Wilkinson depot closed”. Well, yes it did, but not for some years after the United takeover. The ‘depot’ at Sedgefield was actually two quite separate premises about half a mile apart. These were the Parkside garage – where W5 is photographed – on the outskirts of the village prior to its recent expansion, where the majority of the fleet was garaged and major servicing carried out, and North End, closer to the centre of the village with garaging for four buses as well as being the location of the offices, crew room and even a small filling station and car repair facility. Sedgefield depot didn’t close until November 1984. Parkside garage was demolished and developed many years ago and, today, it’s impossible to imagine that it was once a bus garage. The premises at 46 North End, however, although now the base of Wright Construction, are little changed and immediately recognisable. Shamefully, although I lived a hundred yards or so further up North End for over 30 years until a few months ago, I never photographed it in its days as a bus garage!

Alan R Hall

25/09/16 – 05:43

As a former YTC mechanic and a summertime week-end PSV driver I well remember smashing my less than a year old ‘gold 21st present watch’ whilst attempting to select gears on 1235 fleet no Leyland Leopard on the Doncaster Barnsley service. Leyland (in their wisdom) had decided to introduce a hydraulic clutch system into their early Leopards using a completely new clutch pressure plate. Why? Nobody knows. The old Tiger’s clutch was always good enough, and had served the 0600 engine well since c1949. Probably some ‘Whizz Kid’s’ idea straight from some venerable seat of learning. Anyway he cost me a new watch. £35 as I recall a heap of money at the time and almost three weeks wages.

Mr Anon