A. Davies, Acton Burnell 1949 Crossley SD 42/7 Plaxton C33F
Photographed in Piccadilly, London, in 1961 is the Crossley SD42/7 with Plaxton C33F body bought new by A. Davies (Transport) of Acton Burnell near Shrewsbury, Shropshire in March 1949. To address the shortcomings of the Crossley diesel engine the new AEC designed downdraught HOE7/5 began appearing during 1949, but the March 1949 delivery date of this coach – the chassis must have been produced some time earlier – suggests that it was fitted with the unmodified HOE7/4. In practice, as with the Daimler CD6 engine, the use of the HOE7/4 in single deckers, particularly coaches not subjected to intense stop/start work, taxed the power plant rather less severely than in double deckers, and it generally performed satisfactorily on such duties. This is borne out by the retention of FAW 334 by its original operator for a full working life, and, happily, this coach still exists today:- www.classicbuses.co.uk/faw334.JPG
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
11/03/21 – 08:15
My experience of Crossleys was really only with Portsmouth Corporation, which had a sprinkling of DD42/5s with rather fragile locally-built Reading bodies loosely resembling their Craven-bodied trolleybuses at the front. However, their DD42/7s, with very attractive and sturdy Crossley bodies, always impressed me. Of course, the let down was their engines, but, coupled to turbo converters, they made a unique sound, with only two engine notes, either hard up on the governors when accelerating, or on tick-over when coasting along to the next bus stop. And then the Corporation finally decided that the fuel consumption was too much and replaced the mechanicals with renovated Leyland TD7 engines/gearboxes from scrapped buses. Then, to my ears, they sounded very out of keeping! It was a sad day for me, though, when their numbers dwindled….and then they were gone.
Chris Hebbron
19/03/21 – 06:56
The Brockhouse Turbo Transmitter transmission evolved from the pre war designs of Piero Salerni, a non Fascist Italian long resident in Britain with an English wife. One of his earliest transmissions was in a Tilling-Stevens B10 in 1932, and he continued to develop his designs in several applications, including private cars, in the years up to WW2. During the later 1930s he worked for the Ministry of Aircraft Production until, in the fraught political circumstances of wartime, he was arrested as an alien on 10 June 1940. The first that the MoAP knew of this was when he failed to turn up for work. Repeated pleas by Beaverbrook’s ministry failed to secure his release, and he was despatched from Liverpool to internment in Canada on the Arandora Star. On 2 July 1940 the ship was torpedoed and sunk by U47, and Salerni sadly perished together with 805 others, mostly the Italian and German deportees held in the lower decks. Lifetime patents for the gearless transmission designs were subsequently secured by his widow. The Salerni hydro-kinetic transmission principles were taken up post war by Brockhouse of Southport who foresaw applications in private cars, tractors and commercial vehicles. Crossley offered it as an option in the DD42, but ultimately only a total of 65 such chassis were so fitted. Portsmouth took delivery of Crossley’s largest ever turbo transmitter order – four DD42/5T in 1948 and two more in 1949, all six with locally constructed Reading H26/26R bodies, followed by twenty five Crossley bodied H28/24R DD42/7T in that same year, a turbo total of thirty one. The turbo transmitter propelled the vehicle by running the engine at or near maximum revs under load and acceleration, yielding a low mpg figure. It is thought that the typical transmission efficiency barely exceeded 85%. The reliability was also suspect, overheating being a particular problem, and it never matched that of the Lysholm-Smith hydraulic torque converter transmission of some pre war Leyland TD Titans. Between 1957 and 1959 the Corporation replaced the dubious Crossley HOE7 engines and the dipsomaniac turbo transmissions in all the Crossley bodied DD42/7T buses with Leyland 8.6 litre engines and “silent third” gearboxes from withdrawn TD4 s of 1936/37. (In 1952, the prototype DD42 in the Manchester fleet had also been fitted with a pre war Leyland engine and gearbox.) The Reading bodied buses were not so converted, however. Ironically, the post war HOE7 engine, and the contemporary Daimler CD6, had copied exactly the bore/stroke dimensions of the excellent pre war Leyland unit, no doubt believing that future market success lay therein, an optimism that turned out to be misplaced in both cases. The DD42/5 did carry the Maltese Cross badge on the radiator, which was supplanted by the word “Crossley” on later variants. Portsmouth’s six unmodified turbo transmitter machines were withdrawn in 1963, with the “Leylandised” DD42/7s going during the following years up to 1967. I lived in Alverstoke as a child from 1949 to 1952 and visited war damaged Portsmouth often during that period, when my mother and I usually used the trolleybuses. I remember seeing the Crossleys out and about but never travelled on them, so I have no personal knowledge of their performance in the relatively flat terrain of the city. My own very limited experience of Crossleys occurred as a schoolboy during the extended London Transport strike of 1958, when the flamboyantly named Peoples League For The Defence Of Freedom obtained permission to run buses on some parts of the LT network. Route 2 ran on the fairly hilly section between New Addington and Croydon, and two ex Lancaster SD42/3 Crossley B36R saloons, HTC614/5, of 1947 were allocated, plus an ex Crosville Leyland TD7 and a former Lytham St Annes Daimler CWA6. I was amazed how severely the single deck Crossleys struggled on the gradients despite them being just eleven years old, whilst the more elderly Leyland and Daimler, the latter having an engine 1 litre smaller in capacity, coped significantly better.
Roger Cox
24/03/21 – 06:28
Although LT route 93 from Epsom to Putney was the haunt of pre-war RTs in the 1940s and 50s, for a short period, on Sundays, Merton Garage would supply the odd Daimler CWA ‘D’ Class austerity vehicle. Wimbledon Hill was the challenge, at 1:15 gradient, if memory serves, one reason, I wonder, why the modern RTs, with 9.6 litre engines, were allocated the route. On one occasion, I was on a Daimler which climbed the hill and was quite surprised just how well it performed. These had 8.8 litre engines. Of course, such a large class (281) in just two garages meant they were well maintained and with drivers almost exclusively driving them. By contrast, the nine Portsmouth ones, the only ones with pre-selective gearboxes, were greatly abused, with the gearchange pedal being used as a clutch etc.
Chris Hebbron
25/03/21 – 06:57
Chris, the Daimler CWA6 was powered by the AEC A173 7.7 litre (actually 7.58 litres) direct injection diesel. The 8.8 litre engine of 1931, using indirect injection, was AEC’s first production diesel and became the usual diesel power unit in the Regent until 1935. Thereafter the more economical indirect injection 7.7 A171, developed in 1934 for the side engined Q type, became the more common AEC diesel unit. From 1936 this was additionally offered as the direct injection A173. However, in 1938, a new version of the 8.8 appeared for London Transport using the Leyland design of ‘flower pot’ piston cavity, and yet another 8.8 variant was produced with toroidal piston cavities for some municipal operators. This latter engine then became the design basis of the new 9.6 litre power plant that was a major player on the postwar stage. The 7.7 continued in production during the war when it became the power unit of the Daimler CWA6 and the Bristol K6A, the standard utility output being set at 86 bhp, almost identical to that of the 85 bhp Gardner 5LW. Wartime London Transport looked more favourably upon the preselective Daimler over the utility Guy Arab and ultimately took a total of 281 up to 1946. Of these, thirteen were originally powered by the new Daimler CD6 engine of 8.6 litres rated at 100 bhp at 1800 rpm. Like the Crossley HOE7, the CD6 copied exactly the bore/stroke dimensions of the pre war Leyland E102 diesel, but, in practice, the Daimler engine proved to be generally troublesome and very variable in quality between individual examples. Indeed, Birmingham Corporation considered the Daimler engine to be inferior even to the Crossley. By 1950, all the CD6 engines in the LT ‘D’ class had been replaced by AEC 7.7s. The Crossley HOE7 also claimed to produce 100 bhp at 1750 rpm, but in reality that was the genuine output of the Saurer four valve cylinder head prototype. The much inferior two valve head production version never reached that figure until AEC brought out the 114 bhp downdraught version in 1949.
Roger Cox
28/03/21 – 07:53
Thx for the correction and other information, Roger. So the performance with the CWA6’s 7.7litre engine goes even higher in my estimation for Wimbledon Hill(climbing)! ! I recall that the inside cab front of one D had a chalked comment “Dxxx”, the fastest D of them all” so it is likely to have been one of the (6, I think) CD engined ones! I seem to recall that the CD6 engine was also unpopular because it had the timing chain at the rear of the engine, making access much more difficult, with likely engine removal. This reminds me of a friend who had a Renault car with rear timing chain. It shifted cogs (and valve timing) when he tried to start the engine in freezing cold weather. Without access to garage facilities to lift out the engine, or money for a garage to resolve the problem, he cut a hole in the car’s front bulkhead, reset the chain, cut a slightly larger cover and screwed it in over the hole. Job done! And why a rear timing chain? The engine was originally designed for a rear engined car. In his later model, it was fitted at the front!
Kirkby and Sons of Harthill bought three Commer Avengers new in 1950, two Plaxton-bodied examples and one Churchill example. They were swiftly followed by this, another Plaxton thirty-three seater in February 1951. Churchill would build another – A Mark II – in 1953 and Duple were chosen for a Mark III in 1956. From the mid-fifties onwards Kirkby would mostly choose Bedfords but had never been afraid to try other makes including Crossley and AEC!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
08/02/19 – 11:52
Where was the Kirkby depot based, and how big was their fleet in the 70s.
Mr Anon
09/02/19 – 06:00
Kirkby were based at Harthill near the Yorkshire / Derbyshire border. Despite collecting information for the last six decades my own fleet list for Kirkby, Harthill contains only 58 vehicles so far. The earliest on my list was bought new in 1947. There must be someone out there who can give us the full story about this under-reported operator?
Les Dickinson
12/02/19 – 05:18
Kirkbys premises at the end of a residential cul-de-sac in Harthill became the first premises for Stuart Johnson’s Scania bus and coach dealership in the early 80s before their move to purpose built premises in Worksop
Tim Presley
13/04/22 – 08:24
Am I correct in thinking that in addition to operating their own coach fleet, Kirkby’s of Harthill also acted as a dealer in second hand PSVs?
Chris Barker
17/04/22 – 05:51
Kirkby’s were dealers in brand new coaches. Through a succession of owners, they became Plaxtons (South Anston). Although greatly expanded, this is the same site as originally owned by Kirkby’s. They also had a Vauxhall dealership in Rotherham. Kirkby’s were a class act, latterly with a rich blue livery, who took ownership of J O Andrew of Sheffield. After they closed down the operating side – concentrating on the dealership – the manager, by the name of Laking, continued under his own name from the Pryor Mede address. Ironically, Andrew’s became a PSV driving school and then, under deregulation, became the basis of Stagecoach’s Sheffield operations. Plaxton’s became part of ADL, with Brian Souter a major shareholder. Thus Andrew’s and Kirkby’s came back together – after a fashion.
David Oldfield
20/04/22 – 06:22
David O, thanks, going back to a previous age, my very old PSV Circle fleet history of East Midland details the vehicles of an independent, Wass Brothers, which EM took over in 1957. One of the coaches, MTJ 721, Regal IV/Transun, is said to have come from Kirkby of Harthill with the word ‘fleet’ underlined, suggesting that it came from their operational fleet rather than by way of an alternative role. It got me wondering if, at some time in the past, Kirkbys had dealt in second hand coaches.
Chris Barker
22/04/22 – 06:43
What I failed to mention was that, in the end, the operational fleet came under the ownership of Redfearn (of Mansfield) with a green based livery. In the last years of “independence”, at least three 6U3ZR Reliances were bought brand new. After Redfearn’s take over, this was supplemented by a number of fairly new, secondhand, examples of the same. Kirkby’s was, of course, well known as a Bedford dealership but, reading between the lines, there seems to have been a strong connection with Commer in the early ’50s. A local history site seems to indicate that secondhand coaches were also stored in the Harthill (operational) yard until at least 1959.
Midland Red (Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Co) 1954 CL3 Plaxton C36F (1961/2)
I thought I would send you these two photos that I took in Eastbourne in the late 60’s showing two of Midland Red’s CL3 touring coaches, these started life in 1954 as C3 class vehicles with C37C bodies by Willowbrook. During the winter of 1961/2 sixteen of the type, from a total of I think sixty three, had their bodies removed their chassis extended and new Plaxton C36F bodies fitted they were then reclassified as CL3. They entered service in the summer of 1962 in a livery of all over pale stone colour with red being confined to the fleet name lettering but for the next season they reverted to what most people would consider to be their proper colour of red and black as shown in the photo of 4196 the only remnant of the stone being the narrow band below the windows. The other photo of 4220 taken at a later date shows a different livery with the black replaced by a insipid maroon and the stone coloured band removed which to me made them look somewhat drab as the black roof always seemed to me to be the finishing touch of class to Midland Red coaches.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
05/03/13 – 14:41
I agree Dave, the black roof was the finishing touch. It worked equally well on North Western livery too
Les Dickinson
05/03/13 – 16:29
Dave, There was a practical reason for replacing the Black roofs, though I totally agree they finished a resplendent livery. As with the C5’s on Motorway duties it was removed for ‘passenger comfort’ – Black being a great conductor of heat ! Some of the C5 coaching stock also had a white panel (centre roof) over the later darker maroon.
Nigel Edwards
06/03/13 – 06:54
I have to agree that the black roof looked a lot better. What a pity it didn’t “work” in the passenger comfort department. I used to work with Architects who won design awards for their schools. Roofs leaked like sieves but they looked good. Perhaps, one day, we’ll have something that looks good and works as well: sorry, I was forgetting the all-Leyland PD2!
Pete Davies
06/03/13 – 09:28
Yes Pete, but look how long ago that was – and Colin didn’t have the benefit of computers or a PhD to help (?) him…..
David Oldfield
06/03/13 – 15:31
These coaches carried no name badges, although technically speaking they were, with their long windows and forced air ventilation, Panoramas. The Embassy-style grille was required to supply air to the C3’s front-mounted radiator, Similar bodies fitted to Bedford VALs were badged ‘Val’.
Philip Lamb
06/03/13 – 16:42
From a (sadly) bye-gone golden age of Plaxtons.
David Oldfield
19/03/13 – 07:25
Slight correction-they were CL3s, not C3Ls.
Phil Drake
Copy changed thanks for that Phil
Peter
20/03/13 – 16:33
On the 19th March 2013, around 15:00 hours, an AEC Plaxton bodied coach drove up Baslow Road in Totley Sheffield (S17). It was a middle to later 1960s coach, I was so excited I forgot to take the reg no, but I recognised the style as a Panorama Elite or similar. We used to go to many football matches in the 70s on these. It was driven by a lady who waved back when I gave her the thumbs up. It was full of more elderly people. Some seats were reversed to make a table type seating arrangement. I think it had table lamps. Although possibly a 53? seater, it was full but may have had not much over 30 people on board. On the boot lid it had Cheshire in large letters. How come you never have your camera when you need it. It is a 30mph zone, but was more than capable of keeping up with traffic.
Andy Fisher
26/11/13 – 13:16
4220 was based at Nuneaton garage for a while in the early 1970s. By 1972 it had been sold to a small coach operator in the Manchester area. I don’t think they knew what they were taking on… late one Saturday night we received a call from Rugby asking us to attend a breakdown at the A5/A46 junction, where a certain ex-4220 had expired while on a private hire with its new owner, to its old stomping ground. The owners claimed there was an agreement whereby they could call on Midland Red to provide backup in such an eventuality. The Rugby staff took this as fact and asked us to supply a replacement vehicle if they recovered 4220 as we were without our towing vehicle. So we attended taking LC11 Leopard coach 6243 WHA 243H and driver who conveyed the passengers home to Lancs, while 4220 was found to have a dropped valve/seized engine and was towed to Nuneaton. On the Monday there was a bit of a stink as no such agreement existed…the owners were told to bring a substantial sum for the repairs and vehicle hire, or else 4220 would not be released to them. The money paid, 4220 left, certainly in better shape than before, with new piston and cylinder head, and I never saw it again.
DOT 248D is a Bedford VAM, bought new in 1966 by Marchwood Motorways of Totton, near Southampton (not TOTON, the great railway marshalling yard and depot in the Midlands!). The bodywork is by Plaxton. Like other members of the fleet bought new, she would have been on private hire and tours duties, before being relegated to staff bus duties at Fawley refinery. We see her in the depot yard on 9 April 1983. She isn’t a survivor.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
14/12/15 – 06:29
Marchwood also had a sizeable fleet in Pembrokeshire until about September 1981. These vehicles were mostly used in connection with the refineries at Milford Haven.When Marchwood decided to withdraw from the area some of the fleet stayed with Pembs operators. Five found a new home with Richards Brothers, Cardigan; they were all Bedford YRQs as follows FOU 217/8K (Viceroys) HPB 674N and TPX 332P “Dominant” buses) and JDE 252L, a Dominant coach.
Les Dickinson
14/12/15 – 16:18
Thanks for that, Les. I have but a vague recollection that the Pembrokeshire operation was, legally at least, a separate company operated as a subsidiary, but I’m probably wrong.
Pete Davies
15/12/15 – 06:26
The FOU 217/8K Bedford YRQ’s were registered in Southampton.
Chris Hebbron
15/12/15 – 07:30
At the risk of being accused of nit-picking, Chris, OU was a Hampshire registration, not a Southampton one. Southampton used CR, OW and TR (until the reorganisation of local government in 1974, when DVLA was established and letters like AX, GM or JM moved from one end of the country to another).
Pete Davies
15/12/15 – 14:02
You’re right, of course, Pete; a senior moment, I’m afraid!
Priory Coaches of North Shields 1966 Bedford VAL 14 Plaxton C52F
George Chapman established Priory Coaches of North Shields in 1929. North Shields is located in what was the County Borough of Tynemouth, and the name and company logo relate to Tynemouth Priory, which is an ancient monument situated within the grounds of Tynemouth Castle. By the early 50’s the fleet numbered in excess of 40 vehicles, to the best of my knowledge, they never ran any stage carriage services, although they did have a regular twice-weekly service to two local outlying hospitals in Morpeth and Prudhoe. For as long as I can remember, the fleet consisted entirely of Bedfords of all shapes and sizes, with either Duple or Plaxton bodies. In common with most post war coach operators, at one time much of the fleet was made up of Bedford OB’s. As far as I know, they only ever had one VAL 14, I could be wrong, but I don’t think it was around for very long. The Priory livery was two shades of green and cream with gold lettering, and as far as I can remember the seats were upholstered in a rich dark red moquette material, and very smart they looked. The company has changed hands, but I’m pleased to say they are still on the go, although the fleet is nowhere near the same size as it was. It now numbers around 10 vehicles, the livery has also changed, and is now white with two shades of blue. Bedfords no longer being available, the bulk of the fleet is now mainly Volvo.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
17/04/14 – 10:55
These were good looking and, for their time, well built coaches. If anything, they were a little more elegant than the Panoramas, with the thick pillar aft of the first bay. The VAL14 (Leyland engine) was better liked than the later and more powerful VAL70 (Bedford engine).
David Oldfield
17/04/14 – 18:24
The 1967 edition of ‘The Little Red Book’, information for which would have been supplied in 1966, stated, that Priory Motor Coach Co. Ltd., had a rolling stock of 12 coaches. 12 Bedford Chassis, and bodies by Duple 6, Plaxton 5, and Yeates 1.
Stephen Howarth
18/04/14 – 09:30
Purely a personal view of course, but I always found the Bedford VAL to be a delightful and fascinating vehicle to ride in and to drive. For whatever engineering reasons – six small wheels/leaf springing etc – its excellent degree of riding comfort seems often to be overlooked by those attaching great importance to its moderate but very adequate performance. I’ve even done journeys of well over 200 miles in VALs, riding and driving, in perfect contentment. While its gladly acknowledged that it can’t match the speed and power of the Leopard/Reliance/Volvo “big boys” it was nevertheless a very commendable design, and appealing too in what might by some be classed as its “cheeky” involvement in stage carriage work here and there. I loved the VALs and remember their plucky character very fondly, and when all’s said and done they came from a very honest “no frills” stable.
Chris Youhill
18/04/14 – 18:20
I have a photo of BFT 942D in cream and blue livery with “Leisureline” in the destination blind in the front bumper. Does anyone know where this operator was based?
Dave Farrier
10/05/15 – 07:12
The Bedford VAL was produced in Underfloor Engine form for Australia in the early 1970s. Why not for the UK market? Seems odd as the United Kingdom was their main stronghold!
Stemax1960
21/05/15 – 06:39
Dave Farrier, Information re coach reg. BFT 942D.your listing of (18/04/14) I have a note from another stating Leisureline to be a Blackpool based company. Note States same livery, information is by son of the owner. The era being around 1970’s.
Alan Coulson
26/02/16 – 14:22
Regarding underfloor engined VAL’s in Australia. As both a driver and mechanic which worked on them in Australia, until they were finally retired from service. The VAL’s you mentioned were actually bodied in Australia in 1974 after the YRQ had come out and after the VAL had actually ceased production. As there were chassis left over we continued to be able to buy them after cease of build in the UK. Until supplies of the new chassis became available, in many cases even the latter BLP had the front engine moved back as to meet customers demands. Keeping in mind that Australian design rules never specified ground clearance heights like the UK did. The underfloor engine option was one you used to pay extra for, at the time $250.00 for and the body builder would move the engine back to behind just the front axle. Not as far back as in the factory build YRQ, YLQ. I myself even moved and engine back in one of my BLP school buses when the engine failed. Bit of a big job.
Guy
18/02/20 – 07:27
Priory went into liquidation at the end of 2019. Their website is down and some links redirect to Rothbury Travel Group
Alan Walker
19/02/20 – 06:18
Priory were latterly owned by the same owners as Rothbury Travel. They also own various other coach operators in the North East and other areas of the country.
Tim Presley
20/02/20 – 06:20
I was brought up in Whitley Bay in the fifties. During the summer holidays, my parents would book day trips either with Wakefield’s, a subsidiary of Northern, or with Priory Motors. Although I was too young to be able to identify the coaches provided, it is obvious looking back that the type most commonly used was the Bedford SB. The last trip that I made with Priory was some years later when I went on a day tour to Buttertubs Pass. For some reason, the coach that should have been provided was not available, and instead of one large coach, we got two small ones. I travelled in the second, A Plaxton Coach-bodied Bedford J2 mini, not perhaps the ideal vehicle for a day tour, and at the opposite end of the scale from the Bedford VAL, nevertheless, I found it an interesting experience.
John Gibson
20/02/20 – 15:34
Another Priory Coaches VAL FJA 990D ended its days derelict in Myalls of Bassingbourn yard. www.flickr.com/photos/
John Wakefield
05/03/20 – 06:46
John, priory Coaches (North Shields) sadly ceased trading in December 2019. They only ever had one Bedford VAL, that’s the one pictured above, there was however another company based in Coalville, who traded under the name of Priory Coaches UK Ltd & Rigleys Hire Ltd. As far as I know, they have also ceased trading.
Ronnie Hoye
06/03/20 – 06:29
FJA 990D was with Priory Coaches, Christchurch. I think there were quite a few Priory Coaches, there was another one in Royal Leamington Spa at 38 High Street
The coach fleets of Northern General Transport and its subsidiaries was pretty much as you would expect from a BET company, usually an AEC, Guy or Leyland chassis, and a mixture of high quality bodies from several different Coachbuilders, so the arrival of these C41F Paxton Embassy II Bedford SB’s in 1963, came as somewhat of a surprise. I’m not suggesting that the SB was a bad vehicle, far from it, the gave many years of loyal service to a multitude of operators, but Bedford’s never played a significant role in the make up of BET group fleets, any that were around had either been bought for a specific purpose or had come in through the back door as the result of a takeover, so your guess is as good as mine as to why two of them came to be at Percy Main? As well as the Wakefields pair, HFT 264/5 – 264/5; I believe Sunderland District also had a some, and I presume all of them would have been either 8’s or 13’s with the Leyland engine, but I’m not aware of any others in the NGT set up. Life expectancy of NGT single deck and D/P vehicles was around 15 years, some of the touring coaches were withdrawn after about 10 years, but many were used for the longer express routes and lasted as long as their service cousins. This wasn’t the case with these Bedford’s. I started at Percy Main in 1967, and if memory serves, they were withdrawn at the end of the 1968 season. As far as ‘coaches’ were concerned, they were the last to carry the Wakefield’s name as all subsequent vehicles were D/P’s, and the name became defunct in 1970. As a footnote, the photo was taken outside The Gibraltar Rock Pub, located at Tynemouth terminus of what was at the time the service 11 to Newcastle, the location is only about 5 miles from Percy Main depot, and to me this photo looks like a publicity shot and the passengers are probably Percy Main office staff.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
15/05/13 – 09:22
Nice view, Ronnie. Thanks for posting. I know of other operators who used office staff in their publicity photos, so your theory in this case could well be correct.
Pete Davies
15/05/13 – 09:23
Yes, Ronnie – a strange choice of coach for a BET company. However, if they did want some lightweights then there was not much choice at the time, other than Ford Traders. I wonder if they were on lease hire, hence their short life with Wakefields? This scene definitely looks staged. It was a common practice to enrol office staff to act as passengers for publicity shots. I remember one such occasion with Wallace Arnold when we were supposed to be tourists on a Swiss holiday (in the depths of a suburban Leeds country lane). I never saw the resulting pictures. Nobody minded, of course, as it got us out of the office for an hour or two. Mind you, they couldn’t do this today as HSE would object to those two protuberances which could have someone’s eye out! (Sorry, but this was the age of The Likely Lads and Carry On films!)
Paul Haywood
15/05/13 – 10:57
Bedford? Very strange. Why? Because all the quality mainstream operators at that time tended towards the Ford 510E for their minority lightweight purchases – keeping them no longer than three years, often for only one season. [SUT, Yelloway, Wally Arnold, Hebble, Woollen – all ran Fords rather than SBs. SUT only ran SBs from operators who they had taken over.] OK; NGT ran non mainstream vehicles, including Guy Arab LUFs – but Wakefield ran Reliances, instead.
David Oldfield
17/05/13 – 07:17
“Oh, what happened to you? Whatever happened to me?” Well, Rodney Bewes – his voice at least – was the door announcer for the lifts in the last place I worked!
Pete Davies
18/05/13 – 08:15
Notice anything about “Bob’s” accent, Pete? Yorkshire, if not all that broad – Rodney Bewes is from Bingley. I think its called “auto-suggestion”: you’re told the sitcom is about two “likely-lads” from Tyneside – as and long as one of them has a Geordie accent then you simply don’t hear the Yorkshire tones of his partner. The Northern Fleetline/Atlantean-Alexanders (which would it have been?) in the opening titles have gone, are the Scotswood Road flats still standing? The Dunston Rocket, of Tudor Crisps fame (also now gone), has gone. And I’m not even going to mention Manor steps, aerial ropeways, and multi-storey car-parks from a certain cult gangster film. From the mid to late 60s there seemed to be more of an interest in lightweight coaches from certain BET and THC operators. Perhaps this reflected a desire to be able to compete more effectively against independents for private hire business as stage-carriage work declined.
Philip Rushworth
18/05/13 – 16:57
David O – Yelloway was not an operator that ran Fords rather than SBs, the opposite was the case. They bought Fords only in 1961, 3 in total, including subsidiary fleets. They bought SBs each year from 1960 to 1965, excluding 1961, a total of 16.
David Williamson
19/05/13 – 07:18
But my point was that they ran Fords, not that they didn’t run Bedfords…..
David Oldfield
21/05/13 – 14:48
There has recently been some discussion on the SCT61 website about a photo of Wakefield’s Motors Beadle-bodied AEC/Beadle rebuilds 191 and 192 (FT 7791/2). The blind on 192 shows ‘PRIVATE’ with ‘RIPON LEYBURN AND RICHMOND’ in smaller capitals underneath. There has been much speculation as to what this destination was intended for and the North-East based followers of that site are mystified. Eric Bawden has suggested that it might have been used for forces’ leave services but I have no recollection of Wakefield’s doing such work and so I’m not convinced. I wondered if anyone – obviously, I’m particularly thinking of Ronnie Hoye as the Tynemouth/Wakefield’s expert – would know why this particular destination appeared on a Wakefield’s blind. The photograph was taken in 1960 in Whitby so it doesn’t offer any clues.
Alan Hall
22/05/13 – 07:24
Can’t say for certain, Alan. I know a fair bit about T&W but I’m by no means an expert, but my opinion would be that Wakefields coaches all had the longer Northern express route destinations on their blinds, and vehicles with Percy Main crews could often be found being used as duplicates on some of the routes. If memory serves, the Newcastle Liverpool route ran through Ripon, Harrogate and Leeds, but I cant remember any that went via Richmond or Leyburn.
Ronnie Hoye
23/05/13 – 07:54
I’ve been talking to a friend who was at Percy Main when I was, and he too is at a loss as to why Leyburn and Richmond should be on the destination blind. Wakefields had two batches of AEC Beadles, FT 7275/80 – 175/80 and FT 7791/2 – 191/2; 175/80 were FC35F and classified as coaches, whereas 191/2 were FC39F D/P’s, they also had slightly different fronts, the coaches had more bright trim under the windscreen and no number section on the destination layout. The coach blinds carried all Northern express route destinations, but the D/P’s had a shortened version of the stage carriage blind with the express section added.
Ronnie Hoye
27/05/13 – 06:50
Thanks, Ronnie: I appreciate your trouble but it seems that Richmond and Leyburn are mysteries that have us all stumped. Sadly, we’ll probably never know now. I’ve dug out an old timetable from that era (1959, as it happens) which shows the hospital services which were licensed to Northern and Wakefield’s (no other group members), but nothing from as far away as Richmond or Leyburn features. As a matter of interest, the ones from the North Tyneside area (presumably the ones which were operated by Wakefield’s) were North Shields to Prudhoe Hall Colony – what a dreadful name, Wallsend to St George’s Hospital at Morpeth and North Shields to Earl’s House Hospital near Durham. I think that’s my earliest Northern Group timetable but I have others from the ’60s which are stored at my mother’s house. I’ll look them out next time I’m there on the off chance that they may lead us to the solution.
Alan Hall
04/06/13 – 06:49
Ronnie, I’ve now checked the 1960, 1961 and 1962 timetables and there isn’t anything in any of those to indicate why Richmond and Leyburn might have been on Wakefield’s blinds. I wonder if it was simply wishful thinking. You’ll remember that Newcastle’s trolleybus blinds included several places South of the Tyne, such as Dunston, Gateshead and Low Fell, in the hope/expectation that the wires would eventually cross the river as the tram wires had. I suspect that this may have been a similar example of ‘ready in case ever needed’.
Alan Hall
05/06/13 – 10:58
Alan, I have no evidence to back up this theory, but the only thing I can think of is perhaps Northern applied for an additional alternative route for the Leeds service, but this was United territory, and no doubt they would have objected strongly unless it was going to be a shared service.
Ronnie Hoye
30/12/13 – 07:13
Just discovered your site today while searching for pics of the type of coach I drove during my service at R.A.F College Cranwell. Exactly what I was looking for, in fact as my coach was 27AC58. My home town was Scarborough which was very lucky for me as I was given the job of taking the college band to Scarborough for their annual fortnight visit.
Robert Robinson
10/04/15 – 07:27
I have a couple of photos of Wakefields vehicles showing Scarborough as a destination. That would not be a normal destination for a Northern Group Express coach unless it was the practice to hire them to United on Summer Saturdays for their Newcastle-Scarborough service. However, Scarborough was a destination for day tours. On the assumption that Ripon, Leyburn and Richmond was also a day tour, I have visited North Shields library to look for Wakefields Adverts for their tours in the local newspaper, and can confirm that this was indeed a Wakefields day tour.
John Gibson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
08/03/16 – 05:26
I knew I wasn’t imagining this, SDO had two identical vehicles, 3730 & 3731 UP – 330/1, and Northern had eight Bedford’s with C41F Harrington bodies, PCN 1/8 – 2601/8. I dont know about the rest, but the two for Wakefields were sold on after three years, and went to Hylton Castle Coaches of Sunderland
Here we have another example of what a coat of paint can do to a vehicle’s appearance. In the first view, 103 GAA is in the Southsea rally on 10 June 1990, in the livery of Fishwick, Darlington. She is a Bedford SB5 with Plaxton C41F body from 1963. The second view shows her, back in her original markings (Princess Coaches of West End, Southampton) and she is in Winchester for the King Alfred running day on 27 April 2003.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
04/09/16 – 13:40
No doubt about it, the lower image is much better.
David Wragg
05/09/16 – 06:30
Yes, even before we get down to the wheel trims! Thanks, David.
Pete Davies
05/09/16 – 06:31
Sadly 103 GAA is not in that condition now, it passed from preservation with Brian Guilmant of Southampton in 2004 to Collins of Dartford who left it neglected in a yard at Flexford until recently bought back by Ian Barfoot a descendant of the original owner who I understand plans to restore the coach.
John Wakefield
05/09/16 – 08:04
Thanks, John. Flexford is, I believe, the compound used by the King Alfred preservation group, between Sourhampton and Romsey – unless there’s another one hiding in some obscure part of the map! Ian lives, or used to live, in the Bitterne area of Southampton. His mother asked me to provide a shelter at the family’s local bus stop.
Pete Davies
05/09/16 – 14:55
Indeed Pete, its the North Hills Saw Mills Yard actually listed at Baddesley near Chandlers Ford. Still a lot of old buses in there, along with caravans & other vehicles. I don’t think FoKAB use it much these days
John Wakefield
06/09/16 – 06:24
Two more long term residents at Flexford.
HDL 285 a 1952 ex Southern Vectis Bristol LL5G ECW B39R is another bus that has been in the Flexford yard for a number of years with nothing being done to it other than the occasional new tarpaulin, PSVC list owner as Porter, Chandlers Ford. Crazy that someone should buy a bus, pay rent to store it, & leave it to rot. My picture shows it next to 103 GAA in January 2011, but I have seen a more recent picture of it still there in June this year.
Also still languishing in the yard is very derelict 692 AEH an AEC Reliance Weymann B44F new to Potteries 1957 also seen in Jan 2011. Owner is listed as Paynton of Totton. There was an attempt to rescue this a few years back by someone in the Potteries area, apparently it came to nothing.
John Wakefield
06/09/16 – 08:33
Indeed, John. All we need to do is look at the various preservation sites up and down the country – railway centres as well as bus centres – and note how many of them are able to keep all the items under cover. The percentage is quite small. Until that cover – I don’t mean a tarpaulin! – is in place, the exhibit just rots. Yes, it may be a wonderful opportunity for the preservation group to acquire the only example of its type ever produced – but shouldn’t the covered accommodation be there prior to its arrival on site, rather than being the subject of an appeal? If the money is raised, what is the guarantee the local authority will allow planning permission for the new building?
Pete Davies
29/09/19 – 07:13
692 AEH an AEC Reliance Weymann B44F, has been rescued the Potteries Omnibus Perseveration Society if you take a look at their twitter page.
Mr Anon
15/10/19 – 05:43
103 GAA has apparently now (11/19) been sold by the Barfoot family to someone in the Taunton area for preservation.
A rare sight today is this Bedford OB. Rare because it carries a Plaxton body rather than than the ubiquitous Duple Vista which survives in greater numbers. Chassis number 134198, body number 579 was new to C W Blankley (Gem Luxury Coaches) Colsterworth in June 1950. It is now owned by Mr Ken Edwards of Llanon in Cardiganshire and who shows it with pride at many events near and far every year. This view sees it in August 2016 at an event organised in honour of the memory of Stan & Wyndham Rees, formerly of Midway Motors, Crymych. Appropriately this well-attended event was held in fields directly opposite Midway’s depot in Pembrokeshire.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
25/08/16 – 06:12
Now this is a real beauty and an interesting one because the door is positioned further forward than on the contemporary Duple Vista. Judging by the small window ahead of the door, it would appear that this coach didn’t have a front seat beside the driver. I may be in a minority but I’d say this Plaxton body beats the Duple version on looks and style but without that much coveted front seat, I’m afraid several points must be deducted!
Chris Barker
26/08/16 – 05:11
I’m sure someone will know the actual dimensions but when seen alongside the Duple version, Plaxton’s offering was noticeably taller than the other. My personal opinion of the design is that the ‘fin’ shaped moulding towards the front spoils what is otherwise a decent design.
Les Dickinson
26/08/16 – 05:13
Sorry, Chris B – rare as it is, I am glad the Duple version was the most common. Somehow the Plaxton version just seems wrong. The deep windscreens give it a goggle-eyed appearance and the heavy streamlining makes the rear end look to be sagging. No doubt to save money, Plaxton seemed to have used a full-front, forward-control body design and adapted it to a normal control chassis. Duple, on the other hand, designed the Vista from scratch, with all the right proportions. Mind you, if this turned up to offer me a ride, I’d jump on board!
Paul Haywood
26/08/16 – 14:15
I agree with Paul, the Plaxton design was not as attractive as the more popular Duple Vista, and did not have the front seat beside the driver. I am not sure how many Plaxton bonneted ones were built and they went over to the even more ugly full front version which retained the original radiator grille & headlamps, none of these according to my records have survived.
Only one other bonneted one EAJ 679 preserved with Lockett of Henfield ironically in almost same colour scheme to ETL 221 above owned by Ken Edwards of Llanon
John Wakefield
27/08/16 – 05:35
Despite being a huge fan of older Duple body designs, including the Vista, I have to help balance this thread by saying that I think the Plaxton K3 body looked really well on the OB, even preferring it (only just) to the Vista – a bit less dumpy and with neater windows, though the Vista may have looked slightly better from the back (not appreciable on these photos). It’s of course all in the eye of the beholder, as they say.
John Stringer
27/08/16 – 15:31
A photo of the rear of EAJ679 can be found at this link: //tinyurl.com/zc5fcmn Although it could be argued that the Vista rear with twin windows and other aspects like fake bumper is a little more fussy, I prefer it to the Plaxton, which is rather bland, some might argue plain. However, liveries can make a real difference to a PSV’s looks, as we all know.
Chris Hebbron
27/08/16 – 15:32
Duple
Plaxton
Photos of Duple Vista & Plaxton rears for comparison
John Wakefield
28/08/16 – 06:21
Yes, the rear view has clinched it for me. Duple wins with the pleasing windows, the more attractive mouldings and the colour break at the waist level, rather than, awkwardly, reaching to the floor with the roof colour.
Petras409
28/08/16 – 06:22
Here’s another comparison for the discussion. MYB 33 and ETL 221 are seen – front ends only – at Weymouth on 1 July 1979.
Pete Davies
28/08/16 – 10:41
I have to agree on one major point with Petras409. While I am a great admirer of both the Duple and the Plaxton designs – and their quality construction – I’m the first to acknowledge that the strange “archway” effect at the rear of the Plaxton is very distinctly “prewar” – and the same applies even on the full size versions. A real case of “spoiling the ship for a ha’porth of tar.”
Chris Youhill
28/08/16 – 16:25
I see that most here prefer the Duple rather than the Plaxton design for the OBs illustrated. I do tend to agree, but I do wonder whether it is because the Duple was so widespread, whereas the Plaxton was less common? I wonder what we would be saying if the quantities produced were reversed, and we would measure everything else by the Plaxton design? Would we be saying the Duple was too fussy? Just food for thought. . .
Michael Hampton
28/08/16 – 16:26
The frontal design of the Duple blends the bodywork neatly into the taper of the bonnet in a way that gives the design a classic, unified appearance. On the Plaxton, the bulkhead behind the engine forms a flat projection beyond the bonnet sides in a manner adopted by some other coachbuilders on bonneted chassis, Strachans, for example. Those were the days when Duple bodies were in the forefront of styling and construction. From the later 1960s they were the amongst the ugliest things on the road.
Roger Cox
25/12/17 – 06:43
Very nice vehicle! I am trying to find out a little more about C W Blankley and Gem Luxury Travel. Does anybody know anything about them?
Richard Oakley
26/12/17 – 12:04
This is from memory only, and should not be considxered “gospel”. I believe that some, if not all, Gem operations were acquired by Fairtax of Melton Mowbray, run by John Penistone on behalf of Midland Fox, during the latter companies widespread expansion scheme immediately after privatization. I seem to remember some marketing-led “Gem-Fairtax” references, but as this was about the time of my departure from Midland Fox to pastures new at Shearings I cannot be certain.
Malcolm Hirst
26/12/17 – 12:11
Further to my previous comment I have just read on a local history page comments by Mrs. Blankley about the end of the company. She said that post-deregulation it was impossible to sell bus businesses as “anybody” could start up and she sold the coaches. I surmise therefore that Fairtax acquired the goodwill attached to the name. I have no recollection of any vehicles being taken over by Fairtax , but they could have “after my time”. It would be interesting to know what happened to their contracts and private hire book.
Malcolm Hirst
27/12/17 – 06:47
One thing which was notable about Gem (Blankley) was in being the recipient of what was, numerically at least, the first AEC Reliance, chassis MU3RV001. Body was Roe C41C, and looks a bit angular, I think we can say that Roe did quickly improve the design. https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/
David Call
28/12/17 – 06:27
Further info on Gem-Fairtax. In British Bus Days there was a low-cost unit based in London Country area called Gem-Fairtax Ltd,whose head office was 30 Millstone Lane,Leicester (the Midland Fox head office). Coincidentally (?) there was an unconnected (?) Fairtax operation based at the former Blands of Stamford depot, which was run (coincidentally?) by one Brian Garrett, the former owner/manager of Wreake Valley Travel which was a Midland Fox subsidiary after an anti-competitive buy out in early deregulation times. By the time of the new Fairtax operation the original (Midland Fox) Melton Mowbray Fairtax operation had been remerged into Midland Fox. The “new” Fairtax had a number of minibuses from similar sources to some of Fox’s second-hand purchases which may or may not have been ex Midland Fox. It all seems somewhat incestuous, and bearing in mind British Bus ( or rather Drawlane it’s immediate predecessor) and it’s financial methods not at all strange. All this information is available on various different web sites,and while the connections might be somewhat tenuous, it is not difficult to draw certain conclusions which may or may not be correct. Bear in mind also that Steve Telling (of Tellings-Golden Miller) was involved with Midland Fox at this time, that could explain the Gem-Fairtax connection in Surrey. Tellings-Golden Miller were actually the purchaser of V&M Grendon/Hills of Stockingford and NWP Travel (Powner) of Hinckley which were lumped together in one operation and subsequently disappeared without trace although the Powner premises were used by Midland Fox’s Hinckley minibus unit.
Malcolm Hirst
29/12/17 – 07:38
Cecil William and John Clifford Blankley began trading as the Gem Bus Service in 1926 with market day services to local towns using a second hand Chevrolet. Later a daily Grantham to Melton Mowbray service was added. Lincolnshire Road Car acquired the business with five vehicles on February 28th 1935 and the brothers then became drivers for LRCC at the newly opened outstation at Colsterworth. During the war Cecil Blankley restarted as Gem Coaches with a second hand Commer. A quite significant fleet was built up with a fair number of coaches bought new.
Nigel Turner
29/12/17 – 11:38
A couple of other titbits. Midland Fox bought Blands of Stamford the location of the “new” Fairtax. The Melton Mowbray operation traded as Melton Bus and Coach for a time. The “new” Fairtax morphed into ” Fen Travel” and competed strongly with Viscount. It’s opening fleet included 2 VRs, and 2 ex Barton Leopards – all from the Midland Fox fleet. While beyond the scope of the interests of people reading this website, it is quite probable that the financial manoeuvring of this labyrinthine is possibly even more interesting than the vehicles operated!
BYJ 904 is an Austin K8CVC with Plaxton C14F bodywork, dating from 1952. She was new to Dickson and is seen here on Southsea Common for the rally on 11 June 1995. According to the PSVC list for 2012, she has emigrated to the Netherlands as BE-67-57.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
15/11/21 – 07:06
Not sure that BYJ 904 became BE-67-57 in Netherlands, that number went onto a Bedford OB DJD 217. From my records the Austin K8 was sold in Bonhams auction in 7/08 to the Louwman Museum, Den Haigh.
The Dutch reg for BYJ 904 is BE-62-33 NOT BE-67-57 its in the Louwman Museum, Leidsestraatweg, La Haye
The above AEC Reliance chassis No 1598 fitted with a Plaxton Consort C41C body No 2355 was supplied new to Batty Holt Ribblesdale of Blackburn Lancashire in 1958. I bought the coach off a preservationist in Farnham Surrey in 1982 who had acquired it from Chiltern Queens of Woodcote, Oxfordshire where it had operated for a number of years in their fleet. Still in that livery I rallied it for almost 3 years before selling it to Whittaker Tours of Walsall who began to use it on vintage tours, weddings etc. It then went to some travellers where it has remained for a number of years gradually becoming more dilapidated. It certainly was a nice coach to drive and travel in 1950s opulence when I had it.
Several photographs of this vehicle appear on the website //www.travellerhomes.co.uk under the ‘AEC’ heading. Be warned that the sections of this site are not in alphabetical order (it is, after all, run by hippies!) so you will have to scroll downwards to find the AEC bit. According to this site the vehicle was advertised for sale on eBay (or as they prefer “greedbay”) in 2009. Has somebody bought it for re-preservation? I hope so.
Neville Mercer
What a beautiful looking vehicle indeed. I have driven many a thousand very happy miles in virtually identical coaches with Wallace Arnold Tours of Leeds, who had a large number of them. They were extremely nice to drive, had an excellent performance, their reliability was legendary (no pun intended on the model name) and the passengers found them comfortable and pleasant.
Chris Youhill
You lucky person, Chris. Reliances had left front line service by the time I gained my licence. I trained on an ex Chiltern Queen ZF 691 Reliance and ZF Reliances are my favourite vehicles. I was brought up in Sheffield on SUT Reliances of all descriptions. Anyone need help to drive their preserved Reliance?
David Oldfield
The magnificent ZF/690 Reliances caught us all napping at Wallace Arnold David. Until you got the hang of the unfamiliar gearbox the way that third and fourth gears seemed to be “anywhere” between first and second on the left and fifth and sixth on the right could be most embarrassing – we desperately “stirred the tub of treacle” hoping to find third and fourth until it eventually dawned on us that there was a gentle spring preventing unintentional selection of fifth and sixth – and then these lovely smooth powerful vehicles showed their true gentle and civilised nature.
Chris Youhill
Sounds as if you’re as big a fan Chris as I am! I was trained how to use the ZF. Good case for type training!!!
David Oldfield
Indeed David – and on reflection I’m just wondering if my memory is playing tricks ?? WAS the gentle protecting spring on the right, or was it it on the left of the gate to prevent unintentional engagement of first and second gears ??
Chris Youhill
I did my training on said vehicle when it was about 26 years old. I don’t know, or remember, how the springing was set up but it was supposed to centre the lever on the 3/4 axis. This it tended to do quite well, as I remember, although age wore the linkages – and with misuse (normally due to ignorance of how to use it) could make accurate selection of gears a bit haphazard. I remember a Western National driver, shortly after they had taken over Devon General, making a total hash of driving a DG 6U3ZR from Plymouth to Exeter. My problem, as a rookie, was selecting reverse rather than second – when setting off – due to being too brutal with the gear lever. My instructor reckoned I was responsible for many a case of “brown trousers” when I set off in reverse from traffic lights in Reading! As you said (Chris) once you had learned to tame the beast it was a real pussy cat. [The same was also true of the ZF Tiger – especially a 260/Van Hool (ex Armchair) that became a favourite of mine!]
David Oldfield
Thanks for those experiences David. I seem to remember now that 1/2/3/4th were normal and you had to overcome the spring to find 5th and 6th, and when changing down let the lever come out of the spring and locate and “settle” itself ready for 3rd and 4th. This would explain the possible pitfall, which I also remember, of engaging second instead of reverse or reverse instead of second when moving off in one direction or the other.
Chris Youhill
As a former Chiltern Queens driver I have happy memories of this vehicle as it was always a favourite with drivers, went well, and no body noise at all, the only problem was watching your speed as it went so well and ran quietly. Thanks for the memory.
Philip Smith
Yes super vehicles, PMT had about 6 Duple Commander bodied coaches and if drivers tried to pull away in second gear they would tend to go over the second spring in the gearbox and select reverse gear whoops!! The secret with this gear box was to treat it like a woman, nice and gentle. Good fast buses. PMT coach number C989 reg 4989 VT was an AEC Reliance 2U3RA ZF 6 speed gearbox won the Brighton Coach Rally in 1964.
Michael Crofts
I was highly amused Michael to read of your most gallant method of remaining in favour with the ZF gearbox, and I would totally agree that it is the best course of action. It has to be said though that the theory can by no means be applied universally to other gearboxes, and I can think of a few models which would treat such gentlemanly conduct with noisy and stubborn contempt – I’m sure other people have had similar “confrontations” with challenging but nevertheless noble vehicles – the Foden PVSC6/Gardner 6LW remains etched in the distant memory, and must take credit for ensuring that I still have a seemingly healthy ruddy complexion half a century after my last battle with the type !!
Chris Youhill
Interesting comments about Reliances and ZF gearboxes. Maidstone & District used this combination in their express coaches, (‘SC’ in M&D terminology), and they were an absolute delight to drive. Based at M&D’s head office in Maidstone in 1966/7, I had the rare privilege, whenever I went up to London, of being able to suggest to the driver that he might care to take a rest, and drive the coach myself instead. They were just exhilarating: very fast, comfortable and extremely well-mannered in every respect. However, I was mildly surprised to read about people making mistakes when operating the lovely 6-speed ZF gearbox, and Chris’s and David’s comments on accidental selection of the wrong gear rang no bells at all. (You’re right, Chris, the spring was between the 3rd/4th gate and the 5th/6th gate, so when changing from 5th to 4th, say, the technique was to drop into neutral, then hold the lever gently against the spring. Maybe my ignorance of any difficulty with using the ZF box was because the vehicles were then brand new and had suffered no wear in the linkages, but as Michael Crofts points out, they responded best to gentle treatment, and the lovely M&D was a very gentle company!
Roy Burke
Roy. Chris and my post are almost a year old. My problems were when I was learning (before I passed my test) and, to be fair, Chris probably meant on first encountering the beast. Subsequently, I have driven thousands of miles with no problems with AEC, Leyland, Volvo, DAF and Dennis applications of the 6 speed ZF.
David Oldfield
Roy and David, yes, just to confirm my comments on WA drivers being “caught napping” with the new AEC Reliances and the freshly introduced ZF six speed gearbox – a gearbox so totally different from the previous very familiar positive and easy five speed one with which we were all so familiar daily. Of course, as with the norm, there was no mention by the Company of the development and no familiarity training of any kind, and so a little “puzzlement” was to be expected – but we soon came to grips with it and, as everyone above has agreed, the gearbox and the chassis in general were superb – smooth, quiet and fast but totally civilised. I don’t think I dare put in print the top speed that the Reliances could achieve, but they improved the Leeds – Southend Airport feeder running times to come a close second to the aged aeroplanes in which our passengers were to cross the Channel !!
Chris Youhill
Pre-tacho and motorway speed limits, I was a passenger on a 760 which did over the ton – EASILY, and with no effort – on the A1, south of Scotch Corner!
David Oldfield
I have no further questions Mi’ Lud !!
Chris Youhill
All this talk of speed awakens more memories: when driven in a way of which Chris would disapprove, some buses (not coaches)- possibly CVD6’s- or aged Barton PD’s ?- used to “chuff” when “given their head” on the open road: they were probably doing all of 50…? Could we have an expert interpretation?
Joe
Well, David, I just can’t compete with your experience of going at over a ton on the A1; 70mph on the Swanley by-pass was the best I ever managed, but weren’t the Reliances lovely when they were moving at speed? As for Joe’s query, could the ‘chuffing’ be the effect of the governors?
Roy Burke
Reliances were lovely at any speed but not for nothing do I dub them them RR of coaches!
David Oldfield
We had two batches of AEC Reliance 590 with ZF gearboxes at PMT. The six Duple Commander bodied coaches were prone to overheating when driven for long periods in 6th gear. We blanked off 6th gear on all of them for a time and fitted C991 with two radiators in tandem in an attempt to cure the problem. Time dulls the memory, I can’t remember the conclusion to either experiment. The other five had Weymann DP bodies and spent most of their time on stage carriage work, latterly as OMO vehicles. To say they were unsuitable for this work is an understatement!! Most drivers managed to find 2nd and then the next gear was 5th!! I have to confess that I never mastered the 6 speed ZF – nor for that matter the AEC 6 speed constant mesh fitted to the short Reliance coaches. The ex Stratford Blue Tiger Cubs were easy (to me) by comparison.
Ian Wild
As I have said elsewhere, Ian, the 590 was AEC’s Achilles heel which gave them an undeserved reputation through its propensity to boil. It was a wet liner. Its predecessor and successors were dry liners – and didn’t have this problem. Unfortunately the damage was done and many, including Wally Arnold forsook AEC for Leyland.
David Oldfield
In 1981 during a get-together in Leeds we were taking on an excursion to York in a 6-speed Leyland Leopard that sounded different from the near-silent ZF unit. I asked the driver, who told me it was an AEC six-speed box. Back at Leeds he kindly offered me a go round the block. The change was beautifully positive and you could hear the engine just well enough to get clean changes. It struck me that this was an ideal chassis-gearbox combination. I can’t remember the name of the coach company or the registration of the Leopard or why it had been so fitted. Triple amnesia!
Ian Thompson
The ZF Leopard was offered as a sop to disgruntled AEC operators when AEC was closed down in 1979. Famously, both Yelloway and Premier of Cambridge has ZF Leopards after they could no longer get 760 ZF Reliances. Many went straight to Volvo (B58 or B10M) and missed out Leyland. I know a number of southern independents bought ZF Leopards in single numbers but I’m not au fait with Leeds area to know who might have had your ZF Leopard. It would never have replaced – or bettered – the 691/760 Reliance, but just think how much better the Leopard would have been had they offered the ZF earlier.
David Oldfield
01/11/11 – 06:46
Going right back to Neville’s very first posting regarding this fine vehicle, I have many times looked sadly at the pictures found on the Travellers Homes website and at the dreadful state that this poor coach had been allowed to get into..see here //www.travellerhomes.co.uk/?p=6445 Then tonight, by chance I came upon this Flickr website and found that thankfully, a major restoration has been undertaken and it is now once more gleaming! See here //www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/6121759708/in/photostream/ There is a conflict of dates as the “hippy” website claims it was awaiting sale in 2009 but the post restoration picture appears to be January 2008…maybe the camera date coding is wrong but whatever the reason..KBV 778 lives!
Richard Leaman
01/11/11 – 16:15
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the photo on Flickr was taken in 1986 – see the original text under the photo on this website for the reference to it being preserved in “Whittaker” livery. The date of 2008 on Flickr refers to the time when the photo was scanned and uploaded. If only you were right!
Neville Mercer
02/11/11 – 07:08
Neville… I’m sorry. I just did not realise what “86 JL” meant and was pleased to see the coach apparently restored.
I’ve gone back through the travellers website to check on how my confusion was fostered seeing the coach in a new livery.
1. In Geralds original picture it is in Chiltern Queen’s dark/light green scheme.
It’s such a shame and I guess may by now have been broken up or at best deteriorated even further.
Again, my apologies to everyone for the confusion and hoped for “restoration”.
Richard Leaman
02/11/11 – 09:29
We can live in hope, Richard – but more to the point – we can help and support those wonderful people who are able to restore and preserve these classic vehicles – and even better – run them at special gatherings throughout the year.
David Oldfield
03/11/11 – 06:32
David.. indeed you are right about appreciating the work and skills of the restorers. After my last posting above, I noticed that on one of the earlier pictures it now says “Sold in 2010 to..?” so it appears to have moved on but to what fate?
Richard Leaman
03/11/11 – 08:45
………and we should mourn the breakup of classic bus collections, like CPPTD in Broad Street, Old Portsmouth, forced on them by re-development and an unhelpful local council. Also, the likely demise of Aston Manor Road Transport Museum, under threat of closure. With additional council rent, they would have to charge £8pp for ALL visitors. And the purchase, the price was exorbitant.
Chris Hebbron
05/01/12 – 17:00
Ah what happy memories, the Reliance with ZF 6 speed gearbox, although I worked for Southdown at Eastbourne depot I got to drive East Kent’s 590 engined models on the old South Coast Express service to Bournemouth etc as changeovers with drivers, usually from Thanet depot, was a regular occurrence especially in summer, after our usual fare of manual gearbox Leopard’s this was pure Heaven. Other of your correspondents have commented on selecting 3/4 gears I always found that when coming out of 2 or 5/6 that taking all pressure off of the lever using only the palm of your hand would let it stand in the centre of the gate just right to gently slide into 3rd or 4th gear, a gentle touch was all that was needed. Any attempt at heavy handedness almost always ended in failure and confusion all round used properly along with the performance available they were a total pleasure to drive the powerful brakes and light clutch only improved the experience.
Diesel Dave
06/01/12 – 07:02
When I moved from Tynemouth and Wakefields ‘Northern General’ to Armstrong Galley the coaching division of Tyne and Wear PTE, most of the coach fleet was made up of Leyland Leopards with semi auto air change boxes, but we had two older Duple bodied AEC’s with six speed ZF’s, as a result all our drivers had to have any type licence. I don’t know if they had a 590 or a 760, but if they could get a grip I’m sure they could have scaled the North Wall of the Eiger. I would say they were a better vehicle than the Leopard, although the steering on the Leyland was more positive and the AEC’s had a tendency to wander slightly in comparison to the Leyland, but overall they were a nice vehicle to drive.
Ronnie Hoye
06/01/12 – 07:02
My first experience of the ZF gearbox was in the Aldershot and District Park Royal bodied 4MU4RA Reliances, which had the AH 470 engine. I did much of my PSV training and a great deal of subsequent driving on the Halifax Nimbuses, which had a six speed constant mesh gearbox that responded to light, sensitive handling. As I recall, the ZF boxes had a similar gate layout to the Albion, and light detente springs centralised the stick in the 3rd/4th plane. The subtlety of this arrangement was entirely lost on those of the ham fisted fraternity who would berate the gearbox on account of their own incompetence. Properly used, the ZF box was very satisfying and gave even the modestly powered Aldershot examples a fine turn of speed. Later, I drove several of the more powerful 590 engined/ZF model, which confirmed my earlier impressions.
Roger Cox
07/01/12 – 08:49
The 6-speed gearbox of the 4MU4RA was quite different from the one on the the 590s, and I always understood it was an AEC unit, not ZF. The code after the U is 2 for Monocontrol, 3 for synchromesh, 3Z for ZF synchromesh (although I’m not sure that the Z was added on the earliest ones) and 4 for constant mesh.
Peter Williamson
07/01/12 – 10:16
Peter. The 590 ZFs were 2U3RA (or 4U3RA air suspension variant). The Z was only added when the 6 variant (691 and then 760) was introduced [6U3ZR]. The A was dropped from the end because, by that time, there were ONLY air brakes offered. The 6 speed constant mesh (as in 6MU4R) WAS an AEC unit, only available on the medium weights.
David Oldfield
08/01/12 – 08:03
I have read somewhere that the AEC six speed constant mesh gearbox was originally a Thornycroft design. Until the death knell of the Leyland coup de grace, Basingstoke works became the main AEC gearbox factory after the Southall takeover. Alan Townsin’s book, Blue Triangle, seems to make no mention of the AEC 6 speed constant mesh unit being fitted to the Reliance, though this is not absolute evidence. The fifteen 1963/4 Park Royal bodied Reliances numbered 466 to 480 of Aldershot and District were early examples of the 36ft long variant, and I am sure that the gearboxes were of ZF manufacture. Chassis of the same specification were supplied to City of Oxford. A later Aldershot and District batch of five Park Royal bodied 36 footers had the standard 5 speed synchromesh gearbox.
Just in case anyone notices that Bus Lists On The Web has A&D 466-480 as 4MU3RA, this is probably a red herring, as Peter Gould’s site agrees with Roger that they were 4MU4RA. As I said above, the 4 means constant mesh (well strictly speaking it means non-synchromesh, since synchromesh gearboxes are constant mesh as well!). We know that the 3 could refer to one of several synchromesh gearboxes, so it is theoretically possible that the 4 could refer to more than one gearbox as well. But the crucial thing is no synchromesh. Personally I have never heard of a ZF box without synchromesh.
Peter Williamson
09/01/12 – 07:15
North Western’s last batch of Reliances were 36 foot long machines, fifteen being buses and twenty dual-purpose, all on 2U3RA chassis. The last ten (941-952) were fitted with the ZF six-speed gearbox which I believe is what is being referred to here. Peter Caunt, in his book on driving reminiscences with North Western, recalls these as having a close gate, as described, which took some getting used to. He had little chance to wind them up but says then when you changed up from fifth (at about 55 mile/h) to sixth what usually happened is that speed dropped by about 10 mile/h! I suspect there was quite a ratio gap and the engine was delivering sufficient power at the low revs.
David Beilby
09/01/12 – 13:44
As ever, 6 speed ZF covers a multitude of sins – many different versions with differing ratios. The AEC application – only on heavyweights – had an overdrive sixth gear. [That would explain the speed drop – although it did not necessarily happen if driven “properly”]. When Leyland withdrew the Reliance from the market and offered a 6 speed ZF on the Leopard, in 1979, the Leyland application had a direct sixth gear (1:1). The Dennis Dorchester and Seddon Pennine VII had there own versions (Eastern Scottish even having a 4 speed ZF variant). The early 36 footers for North Western and the batch including No.9 for Devon General shared the same 4 speed synchromesh AEC gearbox as the SUT BWB registered Plaxton coaches of 1962. As such, they sounded totally different – more like a Regent V.
David Oldfield
10/01/12 – 16:32
Peter, having trawled again through all my literature on AEC, I confirm that you are correct on the subject of ZF gearboxes fitted to Reliances – they were always synchromesh. For the last fifty years I have laboured under the misapprehension that the A&D 466-480 batch had ZF boxes. We are never too old to learn!
Roger Cox
10/01/12 – 18:04
…..but ZF’s latest, superb, gearbox – the AS-tronic automated gearbox – has no synchromesh on it at all. [The computer doing the changing, the extra weight of the synchromesh was thought to be superfluous.] Volvo obviously agree as their iShift is similarly endowed, as is, I believe Scania’s version.
