Tag: PMT

PMT – AEC Reliance – KVT 192E – 1092

PMT - AEC Reliance - KVT 192E - 1092

Potteries Motor Traction
1967
AEC Reliance 8U2R
Alexander C49F

A firm favourite of mine was the A.E.C. Alexander Y type, what a difference these buses made to our Excursion and Express allocation. I worked at this time on the P.M.T. based at Newcastle Under Lyme depot none of these vehicles were based there at this time they were mostly at Hanley depot (Clough Street) there was a total of about 24 delivered between 1967/1971 the 1967 ones had low back seats and the later ones had high back seats though the low back seats were very comfortable. They were all good for 70MPH and were very comfortable to drive with a five speed semi auto box, some drivers complained about the bouncy ride (coil springs) but in my book they were superb. As far as I can recall they were fitted with the 691 Engine and the company prefix was S.L (semi luxury) as they got older they were dispersed among all the depots and we at Newcastle acquired 103/1092. Happy days.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts

28/05/13 – 17:12

Never knew these 8U2Rs (coil sprung 6U2Rs) despite living on the Peak District/Sheffield border. I preferred the ZF version proliferating at SUT, but it would have been a (good) experience to sample one of these. [They would have been AH691s between 1968 and 1971, they might possibly have still been AH590s in 1967.]

David Oldfield

29/05/13 – 07:04

Yes David they were a mixture, the early ones had the 590 engine and the later ones had 691 engine. When you revved the coil spring buses stationary you could get them to rock, good engine torque. The later deliveries had leaf springs.

Michael Crofts

31/05/13 – 06:27

This has produced a mental block in the little grey cells! In 1967 my job took me from my home town of Sheffield to work in Newcastle-under-Lyme. I didn’t have a car then and used to make visits home, as I recall, on PMT from N-u-L to Buxton where I would change to a Sheffield JOC service 84 which would usually be either a Fanfare, Burlingham or ECW Leopard. My mental block is around the PMT vehicles completing this scenic marathon. I think it was sometimes an Alexander Y type but think that there was sometimes a Daimler. Perhaps a Potteries watcher can remember more?

Les Dickinson

04/06/13 – 06:52

All the PMT AEC /Alexander Y types had AH691 engines. The first two batches (1092-1096 and 1103-1109) were on 8U2R coil spring chassis. Of the final batch of 12, (161-173), the first three were 8U2R whilst the balance from 164 upwards were on conventional 6U2R leaf spring chassis. I am not aware whether any other Companies bought 8U2R, would seem a major design change for small orders from PMT. Maybe AEC had hopes of bigger sales? Maybe by 1971 they had deleted the 8U2R model from their lists? However by 1971, experience with the earlier 8U2Rs suggested that the savings in replacing leaf springs was more than outweighed by problems with panhard rod mountings (not dissimilar in this respect to the problems experienced with the Metalastik rubber sprung Roadliners.) PMT also had two small batches of AEC 8U2R/Duple Commander 1V coaches, 11-13 and 14/15. In response to Les, in 1967 the 49 Hanley to Buxton service would probably be operated then with almost new Daimler Roadliners.

Ian Wild

As a ps, what a dismal colour scheme that 1092 is in the photo. These looked so smart as delivered in the PMT dual purpose livery. Brings back memories of the dire days of NBC (and for that matter PTEs).

09/06/13 – 06:26

In answer to my own question, looking through Bus Lists on the Web, only 30 Reliance chassis are shown as 8Uxx (should actually be 33 as they list PMT 161-163 as 6U2R models which they certainly were not). PMT had 19, Barton are shown with 10 whilst South Wales Transport had two batches of 2 each. So, the coil sprung version accounted for only a tiny minority of the large number of Reliance chassis built.

Ian Wild

18/06/13 – 09:08

KVT 192E_2

Here is a picture of AEC Alexander Y Type KVT 192E when brand new showing it in its original livery. It would be good to see both pictures together.

Michael Crofts

19/06/13 – 07:45

That’s much better and how I remember them. Fortunately I had moved on from PMT before the dreadful NBC Corporate livery was imposed. The last vehicles delivered in my time in the ‘real’ PMT livery were the three Bristol RE DPs 210-212. Do you have a photo of them? I never took one but I remember them being elegant looking buses.

Ian Wild

20/06/13 – 13:35

Sheffield had some of these. I think they were Alexander bodies. They had coach seats with large windows, & bus seats with more, smaller windows. Living on Scott Road, (De La Sall stories lads?) but working from Broomhill, I used to catch the 7.25 from Burngreave Cemetry to work, 1967 or later on the 8 & 9 Inner Circler route. Going up the steep hill of Crookesmoor Road (another) was the most remarkable sound. How it did not break windows I do not know (or probably it did). I think they had gear sticks similar to the Atlanteans (semi automatic)? They took over from the AEC Regent III Roes, & tinfront Roes. These took over from the Crossley (double deckers) which has just been posted on the home page. After that were the AEC Marshalls H reg 1970. I am sure these were still running into the early 80s when I lost touch with the area.

Andy Fisher

20/06/13 – 16:47

The Sheffield coaches were 1968 Leyland Leopard PSU3A/4R (not AEC) 3001 – 3004 (WWB101-104G) and followed by similar (1970) 55 – 60 (FWJ355-369J). The 1970 AECs were Swift 5P2R 50 -54 (DWB50-54H) with Park Royal bodies – which followed on from similar 1968 vehicles. The 1970 Swifts had rear axles and 5 speed gearboxes for interurban and rural working, the 1968 deliveries were 2P2R (4 speeders) split between single and dual door types. The former were 1019 – 1029 (TWE119-129F), the latter were 15 – 36 (TWE15-36F).

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

10/07/19 – 07:09

With regards to the RE DPs 210 to 212 I recall that at least one arrived at Stoke in the service bus livery- red with a cream band and window surrounds. It was hurriedly placed in the paint shop where the middle panels were painted cream.

Leekensian

P M T – AEC Reliance – 4990 VT – C990

Potteries Motor Traction - AEC Reliance - 4990 VT - 990

Potteries Motor Traction
1964
AEC Reliance 2U3RA
Duple C49F

Potteries Motor Traction took delivery of six of these fantastic vehicles in 1964 they had the AEC 590 engine and 6 speed ZF manual gearbox. Drivers and passengers loved them, 4989 VT won the 1964 Brighton coach rally. I have not driven a coach before or since as good as these splendid vehicles. The company got rid of these vehicles in 1976 the older drivers like myself still talk about them now, there was nothing like driving down the third lane of the M6 motorway at about 75MPH which at that time was legal. Oh happy days.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts

11/08/13 – 08:31

Brings back happy memories of Sheffield United Tours and Cyril (C G) Littlewood with their ZF Reliances roaring in and out of Pond Street to and from the north of Scotland, the south of England and continental venues as far away as Switzerland, Italy and Yugoslavia. As Michael says, fantastic vehicles – to ride in and to drive,

David Oldfield

14/08/13 – 11:17

Back in 1965-67 I used to do a regular monthly trip through PMT land, usually starting off with a ride from Manchester to Leek on North Western’s X1 (operated by the previous year’s Y-types, quickly relegated from the X5 to London). After a visit to Berresfords in Cheddleton I’d carry on to Hanley to see what was new with the independents there and then return to Manchester on PMT’s afternoon X2 departure.
On one occasion this was operated by this very machine which made a pleasant change – PMT were in the habit of throwing any old rubbish at this route with lowbridge Atlanteans quite common at busy times. You never realised how uncomfortable these were until you’d spent two hours on one!

Neville Mercer

31/10/13 – 07:16

I remember 4989 VT, as I sometimes travelled to School on it when it was operated by a firm from Bugbrooke Northamptonshire. They sold it in around 1975. I believe it is in that great Coach park in the sky now more’s the pity. The regular driver said it was good for 90 mph on the motorway. No Tachographs or Speed Limiters in them days!

Stemax1960

01/11/13 – 08:12

Overheating was a problem with these six coaches when driven for long periods in 6th gear such as on motorway work. Some had 6th gear blanked off which had the consequence of lowering the top speed but ensuring reasonable fan revolutions. Fleet number C991 had a tandem radiator fitted, from memory as an AEC initiative to overcome the problem. Whilst I can remember the fitment, I can’t recall the result! Too many years ago. I assume that SUT and other Operators had the same problem?

Ian Wild

01/11/13 – 13:51

I remember a journey from Great Yarmouth to Sheffield in August 1968. Part of the route was on the A1 around Newark, fast, even in those days. We were “going like stink” with our C reg, SUT, 2U3RA Reliance (with AH590) – 356-365 batch. Suddenly we were doing about 30mph – for quite some time. Later, when I questioned the driver, he said she was overheating so he slowed up to give her a chance to cool down. SUT put an experimental air scoop under the grille of B reg 349 – from 346-355 – but this was not entirely successful and was subsequently removed. As I have said before, the wet-liner AH590 – and its problems – lost AEC a lot of friends. Others like SUT and Yelloway persevered and the AH691 and AH760 repaid their persistence. Heavyweight ZF Reliances were thoroughbreds which were a delight to drive and to ride in. The AH590 let the side down.

David Oldfield

PMT – AEC Reliance – WJO 744 – S5626

PMT - AEC Reliance - WJO 744 - S5626

Potteries Motor Traction
1955
AEC Reliance MU3RV
Willowbrook B45F

Nine of these AEC Reliance MU3RV’s with Willowbrook B45F bodies had been ordered by City of Oxford Motor Services for delivery in 1955. Registered in Oxford as WJO 736-744, the last three were instead diverted to PMT which numbered them S5624-5626 and placed them in their Wells Motor Services Ltd. subsidiary fleet, painted in Wells’ green and cream livery. The Biddulph-based 20 vehicle Wells business had been acquired in 1953, and was absorbed into the main fleet in 1959, whereupon the trio of Reliances received standard PMT red and cream fleet livery. It is pictured here outside Biddulph depot on a dismal day in late 1971, probably not long before withdrawal.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

19/11/13 – 05:45

Ah, memories, memories. ‘PMT – NorWestern, Biddulph Depot’. Foreman Tommy Chell complaining regularly about the rubbish that Paddy Grimes, his opposite number at NWRCC Macclesfield Depot sent him! (Not that it prevented Tommy from having a drink with Paddy most Friday nights!) For NWRCC, Biddulph was an outstation of Macclesfield, PMT carried out the necessary maintenance on the North Western contingent. As for S5626, well very much a Biddulph machine. The trio had a sad appearance, rather high front waist with consequent shallow windscreens. One thing is certain, it wouldn’t be long before it suffered a head gasket failure!!!5626 was the last of the three to be withdrawn, in 1972 passing to Martin, (Weaverham), Dealer in December that year.

WJO 744_2

Here is a photo of S5626 in service in Biddulph on 8th March 1971, looking rather neglected. Note that the standard PMT blind display is too deep for the aperture.

Ian Wild

19/11/13 – 15:22

It seems to me to be unusual for vehicles intended for one operator to be diverted to another before entering service, and then keep their allotted registrations. My experience – admittedly limited – is generally that the booked registrations become void and are superseded by ones relevant to the new “home” territory.
It is of course an entirely different story if a vehicle is passed from one operator to another after service, such as a Ribble PS2 going to Southport for further service.
How wrong am I???

Pete Davies

22/11/13 – 08:01

In 1965 Bristol Omnibus received four MWs originally built for Eastern National. These were delivered to Bristol in ENOC livery with Essex registrations in the JHK-C series, before being reregistered in Bristol with BHW-C marks.

Geoff Kerr

22/11/13 – 10:02

Thanks, Geoff

Pete Davies

22/11/13 – 10:03

The vast geographical area covered by the United Automobile Services Empire contained literally dozens of registration options, but they had a policy that vehicles new to them were all registered in Darlington, and so had an HN index. On the other hand, Northern General vehicles usually had the mark of the area to which the vehicle was first allocated, so they could be either a County or local authority registration.

Ronnie Hoye

09/03/16 – 06:55

North Western’s Biddulph depot was a depot in its own right and was so from July 1936 until March 1972 when the Biddulph depot work, together with Macclesfield and Northwich depots passed to Crosville.
North Western outstations were at Castleton (Derbyshire) and Warrington plus for a very short time Congleton.

John Dixon

10/03/16 – 05:02

With reference to the comments above regarding new vehicles diverted to different operators, I think it depends when the vehicle is first registered/taxed. In 1977, Trent exchanged VRs for Nationals with Northern General – the VRs had already been registered by Trent (UTO 830-7S) but had not entered service when they went to Northern General; the Nationals had not been registered by Northern General, so they were registered by Trent as VCH 473-80S. Another example is the G regd Willowbrook Atlanteans intended for Devon General – some at least were photographed at Willowbrook with Devon General fleet names, fleet numbers and Devon registration numbers in the OTT-G series; at the last minute they were diverted to Yorkshire Traction, who put them into service in Devon General livery, but with local Barnsley registrations in the RHE-G series.

Bob Gell

30/05/17 – 06:47

I remember these vehicles arriving at Well’s and that they had the name of a leasing company in Oxford painted in small letters on the lower body just behind the door.

CSR

PMT – AEC Reliance – 761 CVT – C8761

PMT - AEC Reliance - 761 CVT - C8761

Potteries Motor Traction
1958
AEC Reliance 470
Willowbrook C41F

PMT had five of these coaches plus one similar acquisition on a Leyland Tiger Cub chassis from the takeover of Dawsons, Ash Bank. They suffered as always with AH470 engines with cylinder head gasket and wet liner seal failures. This is why this photo was taken adjacent to Llandrindod Wells Railway Station on a summer evening in June 1971. A similar Reliance had taken a party of Scouts on a weeks expedition to Tenby and inevitably the engine had failed in South Wales. I was summoned at short notice to take a replacement vehicle arriving at South Wales Transport Ravenhill Depot shortly before midnight. I chose the scenic route rather than the M6/M5 as I didn’t fancy becoming another engine failure casualty at the side of the Motorway. During 1971 and 1972 three of these Reliances were modified for one man operation and repainted in bus livery. The conversion included jack knife doors the motor for which would only fit in the space occupied by the nearside front passenger seat hence reducing the capacity to 39. As the vehicles were 13/14 years old by this time one wonders if it was really worth the effort. I recall 762 which was allocated to Biddulph Depot put in some quite respectable mileages as an omo saloon.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

16/11/14 – 09:44

An odd design which seems to transition from the early 1950s at the front to the late 1950s at the rear.

Phil Blinkhorn

16/11/14 – 11:21

JCN 449

Northern General had a batch of very similar C37F Willowbrook Viking coaches on an AEC Reliance 2MU3RV chassis, so as I understand it, they would have had the larger AH590 engine. Delivered in 1959, they were JCN 445 to 454, numbered 1845 to 1854. About 1967, it was decided to convert them for use as OPO vehicles, but the changes were far more radical. I don’t know if the conversion was carried out ‘in-house’ or whether they went back to Willowbrook to be done, but the whole front end was chopped off, and a new service front grafted on, I believe they were also up-seated to 41. Here is an example of the end result, I believe they remained in service until around 1975

Ronnie Hoye

16/11/14 – 18:03

Were the gasket/liner problems eventually cured by AEC?

Chris Hebbron

17/11/14 – 06:47

In a word, Chris – No! AEC’s involvement with wet liners began in 1935 with the introduction of the ‘6.6’ A172 engine (actually of 6.75 litres) in the lightweight Regal II. This engine proved to be decidedly troublesome, and the wet liner problems were carried through into its postwar ranges developed from about 1953. In the end, AEC reverted to dry liners in the AV/AH 505/691/760 engines. By contrast, Dennis employed wet liners in its ‘Big 4’ petrol and O4/O6 diesels from the mid 1930s onwards, and all were generally free of the troubles that plagued the AEC efforts.

Roger Cox

17/11/14 – 06:47

2MU3RV was still the AH470, Ronnie – 2U3RA was the AH590. Both of these had wet liners and gasket head problems. The AH691 and AH760 were new dry liner engines which did not have the same problems. Sadly the reputation was tarnished and many did not return to AEC. Also, like the later Leyland Panther, others persevered and overcame the problems.

David Oldfield

17/11/14 – 09:51

Thx, Roger. It’s amazing, from what you say, that folk continued to buy AEC’s with these engines, if they were so troublesome, although I admit that post-war distress purchasing would retain undeserved loyalty to a large extent. Were LTE’s engines of this type? I’ve never heard of problems with those Incidentally, did AEC/Leyland ever offer ‘outside’ engine options at ordering stage, such as Gardner? I’ve never heard of any, but who knows?
David O, strange that, following on with gasket/wet liner problems, which existed for decades, AEC cured Crossley’s engine breathing problem within months!

Chris Hebbron

17/11/14 – 11:37

The AV (vertical) engines never suffered to the same extent as the horizontal AH engines and substantially LTE had no problems with RMs (once the teething problems were ironed out) – including the AV590. Neither did Sheffield with its Regent Vs and Bridgemasters. [In passing, the AV version of the AH691 was actually a wet-liner and really an “out-boring” of the AV590.] It is surprising that they carried on so long before they eventually reverted to dry-liners – and as I said lost friends along the way. Those who stayed were rewarded by the AH691/760. AEC were not alone in having problems with putting an engine on its side. I am a “fan” of the O.600/O.680 – but this was not without its problems either – as Stephen Barber has alluded to in his Wallace Arnold Books. Conversely, there was enough faith in the later AEC engines to offer them, initially, as an option, in Series 2 REs and VRTs. The famous Werner Heubeck at Citybus who force BL to continue the RE for Northern Ireland was known to be very interested in an AH691 RE but BL back out at the last minute and cancelled the option – much to Heubeck’s anger. [Something similar is thought to have happened with the VRT – when someone showed interest, the option was withdrawn.] As for Gardners, there were the famous Rochdale D2RAG Regent Vs and the less famous Glasgow and Aberdeen D2RVG Regent Vs.

David Oldfield

17/11/14 – 16:50

Huddersfield JOC took delivery of 16 Regent’s and 37 Regal’s with 6LW engines between 1935 and 1939.

Eric Bawden

17/11/14 – 17:19

Forgot those, Eric. Crossley engines were another, and simpler, matter. AEC basically knew the problem – Crossley refused to pay royalties to Saurer and so mangle the design of the piston/cylinder head to make it different. AEC simply came up with a design which solved the problem without infringing the rights of Saurer. [I’m not an engineer, so I cannot elucidate.]

David Oldfield

18/11/14 – 06:23

As I have always understood it, the bored out 11.3 litre version of the AEC AV590 wet liner engine was the AV690, which was introduced at the same time in 1958. It was most commonly employed in commercial vehicle models such as the Mammoth Major V and in many export PSV’s, but was optional in the 2D version of the Regent V, and in horizontal AH690 form in the 2U and 4U larger Reliances, though it was not differentiated in the model designation.
The AV/AH691 was the 11.3 litre dry liner engine which was announced in late 1964 at the same time as its smaller equivalent the AV/AH505. The AV691 was then offered as an option in the Regent V and Renown, models, which were then designated Regent 691 (prefixed 3D) and Renown 691 (prefixed 4B) though none of the latter were built.

John Stringer

18/11/14 – 06:23

David, the wet liner 11.3 litre was the AV/AH 690. The 691 was a dry liner in vertical and horizontal formats. Even the switch to dry liners did not resolve AEC’s engine reputation. The AV/AH 505 in particular soon revealed weaknesses in service. A cover plate was fitted on the top of the block under the cylinder head, and this plate was held in place by a number of set screws. The inevitable expansion and contraction of this component in service caused the screws to fail, leaving a hole that allowed coolant to escape. This, if not spotted and remedied, could result in a seized engine. The design defects were progressively eliminated, but AEC’s reputation as an engine builder was not enhanced.

Roger Cox

18/11/14 – 06:24

Ronnie – that’s a proper bus conversion done by Northern, however as they were done in 1967 they would operate for quite a few years to get the money back. We only started conversions in 1971 and as I said, perhaps a bit late in the day – but don’t forget PMT had the largest fleet of Roadliners in the world and anything had to be tried to mitigate the chronic unreliability.

Ian Wild

18/11/14 – 06:25

Chris, for a short period in 1956/7 the AEC Regent V was offered with the option of a Gardner 5LW or 6LW engine. There were only three takers; Glasgow and Dundee Corporations bought examples with vacuum brakes and spring operated preselector gearboxes (model D2RV6G,) and Rochdale Corporation had examples with air brakes and air operated preselector or semi-automatic gearboxes, model D2RA6G. The Rochdale examples were described in my article on this site.

Don McKeown

18/11/14 – 10:19

The prototype Crossley HOE7 engine design came about when the firm’s engine designer, W.C. Worrall was diagnosed with tuberculosis prior to the outbreak of WW2. He was sent to Switzerland to recuperate, and, whilst there, visited the Saurer factory, where he himself had once worked. Saurer gave him permission to use the company’s advanced four valve head and toroidal piston cavity in his new engine design. Shortly after Worral’s return to Britain, war broke out, limiting Crossley’s commercial options, but three prototype engines were constructed with combustion chamber detailed design being made by Leslie Bennett, a mathematician and combustion specialist. Thus Crossley had done all the right things and succeeded in a designing a powerful and reliable unit. Then, as the new SD/DD42 chassis production began to get under way in 1944, Saurer, entirely reasonably, asked for a royalty or licence payment in recognition of the fact that the Swiss company’s patents were employed in the head design. The exact details of the fees involved have since been buried in the passage of time (probably deliberately). The Crossley MD, Arthur Hubble was having none of this, and refused to comply, instead ordering that the cylinder head of the new engine be redesigned completely to avoid any payment to Saurer. The new head had two valves per cylinder instead of four, and the toroidal piston cavity was reshaped with sharp concentric ridges, the (misplaced) theory being that these would improve the swirl effect. The new head was married up with the original block intended for the Saurer type head, and the result was a motor strangulated by hopelessly contorted airflows. In addition, poor coolant circulation led to overheating and high back pressure in the crankcase. This ill advised redesign ended the involvement of Saurer, but left Crossley with a exceptionally poor engine. When AEC took control of Crossley, it lost patience with Gorton’s refusal to attend to the cylinder head deficiencies and undertook remedial design itself. It is an overstatement to suggest that AEC simply solved the problems with the Crossley engine. The downdraught cylinder head was not a cheap conversion, and, although it did improve the airflow characteristics and reliability issues to a very great extent, the HOE7 could never be turned into a truly good motor. What baffles me somewhat is the fact that Dennis used a four valve head and toroidal piston cavity in its O4 and O6 diesels, yet no payment was ever made to Saurer. Presumably the Dennis design differed sufficiently to escape the Saurer patents.

Roger Cox

18/11/14 – 15:50

Aberdeen Corporation did have five Gardner engined AEC Regent V’s with Crossley bodies (205 – 209). In 1959 they purchased five AEC Regent V’s with AEC engines and Alexander bodies (271-275). By 1963, they also had been fitted with Gardner 6LW engines.
I seem to recall that Maidstone and District also converted some coaches in the same manner as that done by Northern General.

Stephen Bloomfield

19/11/14 – 05:57

Stephen, I think the Maidstone vehicles you refer to had Harrington bodies but the end result was quite similar.

Ian Wild

24/11/14 – 17:03

On the subject of seized AEC Reliance engines I Drove for Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury in the late 1970s. Due to a vehicle shortage one weekend a AEC Reliance/Plaxton was hired from Kirby Coach dealers of Sheffield. Returning from Blackpool on the Saturday night the engine seized up on the M62. Rather then owning up to this, a visit was made to a scrappers at Barnsley and a similar engine was obtained and shoe horned in. I dare say no one was ever the wiser.

Philip Carlton

25/11/14 – 06:31

Thx, folks, for the answers to my queries.

Chris Hebbron

PMT – AEC Reliance – PVT 103F – SL1103

PMT - AEC Reliance - PVT 103F - SL1103

Potteries Motor Traction
1968
AEC Reliance 691 8U2RA
Alexander DP49F

SL1103 is at the Barlaston terminus of services 24/25 having worked the service from Hanley on 3rd May 1970. Barlaston was a pleasant village on the south eastern side of the Stoke conurbation, it’s main fame at that time being the nearby Wedgwood China factory. This was one of PMTs second batch of these Reliances, differing from the previous delivery in having folding doors in lieu of glider type. Both batches had low back dual purpose seating. The 8U2R chassis specification denotes coil spring suspension. The ride on these could be quite bouncy when the shock absorbers were in less than good condition.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

20/02/15 – 16:31

The last couple of years of its life were spent at the Newcastle under Lyme depot I loved this bus I remember one weekend on the Saturday doing express to Skegness and being relieved at Newark on the way back, I then travelled on the cushions back to Depot. Next day I took it to Blackpool on excursion. I probably drove this vehicle more than any one else whilst it was at Newcastle some one wrote in the cab “Croftys bus” another favourite
Route was express to Peterborough Saturday’s only. It was great on service as well. Happy days.

Michael Crofts

02/05/20 – 06:48

Looking at a PMT Fleetlist for May 1979 it stated that most of the Alexander Y type Reliances had AH590 engines. This begs the question, was the AH691 unreliable or was there a difficulty in obtaining spares? I recall seeing several former Maidstone & District Reliances dating from 1965 passing through the Central Works at Stoke for parts recovery and so some of the AH590 engines could have been sourced from these. Likewise at least one former North Western Reliance was received from Crosville for the same reason.

Leekensian

03/05/20 – 06:34

Could be that the fleetlist is wrong. The AH691 gradually replaced the AH590 from 1967 and by 1969 had done so completely. The 8U2R was a variant of the 6U2R – which only ever had (initially) the AH691 and (latterly) the AH760.

David Oldfield

04/05/20 – 05:46

David, the fleetlist was included in a publication issued by PMT in 1979 entitled ‘a century of public transport in North Staffordshire’. The fleetlist states that buses 1092 to 1096, 103 to 109 and 161 to 163 as 8U2R with AEH691 engines, whilst fleet numbers 164 to 173 as 6U2R with AH691 engines. However there is a footnote along side the entries stating – most have AH590 engines.

Leekensian

05/05/20 – 05:52

The 8U2R Reliance had coil spring suspension (very few built), the more common 6U2R had conventional leaf Spring suspension.

Ian Wild

05/05/20 – 05:53

Confirmation, FEH 171J fleet number 171 had a AH691 engine.

Alan Coulson

06/05/20 – 07:06

All the Alexander Y type bodied Reliances were supplied with AH691 engines. From memory, the cylinder liners in this engine were a VERY tight fit in the parent bore (figures of 20 tons needed on the press come to mind). It could be that as the engines aged, the cylinder blocks got past having new liners fitted and fitting redundant AH 590 engines in place could well have been a more economical method of keeping elderly vehicles running.

Ian Wild

PMT – AEC Reliance – 4989 VT – C989

PMT - AEC Reliance - 4989 VT - C989

Potteries Motor Traction
1964
AEC Reliance 2U3RA
Duple C49F

Potteries C989 registration 4989 VT was an AEC Reliance 2U3RA with a Duple Commander I body delivered in early 1964. One of it’s early duties was an appearance at that years Brighton coach rally where it won the Coach of the Year trophy with favourable comments from the judges on both the interior and exterior designs which is understandable when viewing the simple but elegant lines with the attractive livery applied in a layout that follows the lines of the coachwork, a feature sadly missing on many of todays vehicles.
The photo was taken outside Southdown’s Royal Parade garage in the summer of 1964 when on an extended tour.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

26/02/15 – 06:20

I remember them well! These six coaches C986-991 were the backbone of the extended tours fleet. They could be relied on to complete the tour without difficulty, rather more than can be said for the six Roadliner coaches. Their only vice was a tendency to overheat when driven for long periods in 6th gear. For one of these fine Reliances in a bit of trouble, see my posting in the Galleries headed A Potteries Motor Traction Coach in a spot of bother

Ian Wild

26/02/15 – 15:16

By the winter of 1965/66 they were regulars on the X2 from the Potteries to Manchester – I used to get the afternoon departure after a round trip from Manchester to Leek (via NWRCC’s X1 – usually a “VDB” Y-type) and then visits to Berresfords at Cheddleton and Hanley town centre. I guess that PMT didn’t do much in the way of extended tours in the winter.

Neville Mercer

04/03/15 – 15:42

I have been driving buses for about 45 years and have never driven a vehicle so superb as these AEC Duple Commander’s. The finest coach I have ever driven.

Michael Crofts

06/03/15 – 06:39

I remember this when it was operated by Sabelis Concorde Coaches from Bugbrooke. I travelled to school on it. The regular driver said that it would sit at 80mph all day. That was in 1974, before Speed Limiters were foisted on the world.

Stemax1960

06/03/15 – 11:03

I looked up this batch in my spotting notes and turned up the following results (if you excuse the pun):
C986/987/989 parked in Priory Road in Anfield for the Everton v Stoke City match (1-1) on 12/12/1964.
C990 parked in Priory Road in Anfield for the Liverpool v Stoke City match (3-2) on 03/05/1965 (same season as above).
C991 parked at the Adelphi Hotel on Lime Street in Liverpool, almost certainly the team coach, for the Liverpool v Stoke City match (2-1) on 30/09/1967.
C988, seen but not logged.
Where did 50 years go?

Dave Farrier

PMT – AEC Regent III – REH 524 – H524


Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Potteries Motor Traction
1952
AEC Regent III 9613A 
Northern Counties H32/26R

This is a rather nice looking Northern Counties bodied Regent III the front of the upper deck looks a bit Massey-ish but the flared skirt just adds that little extra touch. PMT had a very varied fleet one reason for this was that when they took over a rival operator they absorbed their vehicles into their own fleet. In 1951 PMT took over five companies and 150 vehicles I do not think that REH 500 fleet number H500 was one of them. REH 500 was a Daimler CLG5 I have not come across many of those in my researching, mind you, they only had the one, the L by the way stood for lightweight. With regards Daimler and PMT they were the largest operator of the Roadliner having almost seventy of them, but that is another sad story which should really be told with a photo of a PMT Roadliner above it, unfortunately I do not have one.

A full list of Regent III and Daimler codes can be seen here.

For Daimler CLG5 see my comment under the heading of Manchester Daimler NNB 231. PMT’s REH 500 was one of the two prototypes. It also carried the prototype MCW Orion body and appeared at the 1952 Commercial Motor Show.

Peter Williamson

I also seem to recollect that PMT had the first 30′ Orion on a PD3 – which was unique in having six short bays (of same size as on 27′ models) rather than the standard five longer bays.

David Oldfield

These were a splendid vehicle they gave a nice comfortable ride and were quite quick I have driven this vehicle and also been a conductor on this vehicle.

Michael Crofts

This vehicle was one of a batch of twelve, ordered in 1951 jointly by two independents, Stoke Motors and Thomas Tilstone with a view to a merger of the two businesses. It is written that this prospect alarmed PMT so much that they made a more than generous offer to the proprietors, hence a batch of Regents delivered to a fleet not known hitherto for AEC purchases, although they became common later with Reliances.

Chris Barker

Also worthy of note the AEC Regents above had the air cleaner from the engine attached by pipe work to the upper saloon which is why the front window pillar is so thick and this kept the air in the saloon clear of cigarette smoke, the ceiling looked like a crib board.

Michael Crofts

Potteries Motor Traction – Bristol FS6G – DPM67C – T2

DPM 67C

Potteries Motor Traction
1965
Bristol FS6G
ECW H33/27RD

New to Brighton Hove and District as fleet number 67 this was one of a pair of these Lodekkas acquired by PMT in NBC days as Driver Training vehicles. The yellow NBC style livery is rather attractive. Seems a strange vehicle type to transfer to an ex BET fleet with no previous experience of this model.
Photo taken at Woodhouse Street, Stoke outside the main works in July 1978

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

22/04/20 – 06:46

These two buses were added to the PMT fleet at the end of 1976 and if my memory serves me right one was received in NBC green whilst the other had traditional Southdown livery. These buses were newer than all of the Leyland Atlanteans and most of the Daimler Fleetlines still in operation at that time, but these were not suitable for Driver Traning duties by virtue of having semi-automatic transmission. At that time to obtain a licence to drive all type of PSV a driver had to have undertaken at least part of the PSV training on a bus with fully transmission.

Leekensian

23/04/20 – 06:40

Thanks for the comment. In 1976 PMT would still have Ford coaches with manual transmission (and maybe Reliances 986-991 and 1041 -1043, possibly some Reliance service buses still with manual transmission). Most BET fleets had gone over to forward entrances for their later half cab deliveries and rear entrance buses were easier (and cheaper) to adapt for driver training. An interesting interlude and interesting comment about liveries as received.

Ian Wild

23/04/20 – 08:27

I agree that the livery is quite attractive, probably aided by how impeccable the bus looks.
Is it still or no longer the case that PSV drivers must have some experience of manual transmission? The Stagecoach learner buses I see around locally (all single deckers, although the fleet has double deckers, too) are so old as to suggest that they have manual gearboxes. They are of the high-floored variety coach type with steep steps into the vehicles.

Chris Hebbron

24/04/20 – 06:08

In 1976 PMT still had a large number of Leyland Leopards and AEC Reliances from the batches delivered between 1962 and 1965 – 921 to 950, 976 to 985 and 1036 to 1040. One of 1963 Leopards (927) was converted to a Driver Trainer in 1977 and carried the same livery as the two Bristol FS6G. Unfortunately all of the heavy weight(some might say decent) coaches had been withdrawn by PMT in 1973 to be replaced by twenty Ford coaches with Duple Dominant Express bodywork. I have often wondered if the coaches were withdrawn prematurely to take advantage of the bus grant scheme or in order to improve the profile of the coach fleet. A further link between PMT and Southdown also took place in 1976 when six 1965 Leyland Leopards coaches were purchased and carried PMT fleet numbers 10 to 15.

Leekensian

24/04/20 – 06:09

Chris-so far as I am aware the use of high floor coaches is more to do with a requirement that buses used for PCV licence testing (and hence training) are fitted with ABS brakes. Modern coaches are so fitted (again by law) hence meet the required standard.

Ian Wild

25/04/20 – 06:29

Ian; When this came into force my local operator, First Eastern Counties, had to use the newest Volvo coaches (R reg) for driver training and the N&P reg ones for revenue earning services.
Shortly before the ABS requirement I had passed my class D driving test in a 26 year old Bedford YMT which obviously did not have ABS.

Nick Dasey

26/04/20 – 06:10

Even when delivered in 1966, the FS did not appear to be the bus for the future of the industry! Several of the last batch went to Tilling companies that already used FLF forward entrance deckers. So why revert? I recall United Counties had several of this last batch, with the reliable 6LW Gardner engine and without CBC radiators and thus engineering-wise were very reliable vehicles. But not much use when one man operation of double deckers came to the industry within two years of the delivery. United Counties carried out careful conversions of four of their last FS6G into Driver Trainers and, in at least one case, combined with tree lopping duties, complete with trailer for carrying the cuttings. They were out-shopped from Northampton similarly to the PMT version in an immaculate yellow version of the NBC livery. I think samples are still running and there are photos on Flickr. PS: I remember collecting Eastern Counties last FS5G from Lowestoft in 1966!

Geoff Pullin

26/04/20 – 06:12

Nick, I really admire your gall to go public on this site to say that you passed your test in a Bedford!
Perhaps our illustrious ‘blogmaster’ could start a separate topic heading, so that we might be able to regale tales of what we passed our PSV test with?
just an idea? (Tin hat time from our beloved Bedford fans, I fear )

Mike Norris

27/04/20 – 07:25

Mike, you think that admitting to passing a test in a Bedford is bad, it get’s worse. I also passed my class 3 & 1 HGV tests in Bedfords and worst of all, I still own the coach.

Nick Dasey

27/04/20 – 07:25

Well, I learned and passed my test in a magnificent (6 speed) 6U3ZR. Of course, purists might (justifiably?) say that learning and passing on a constant mesh decker is something of which to be more proud.

David Oldfield

27/04/20 – 07:27

I passed my PSV test on either DPM66C or DPM67C I don’t recall which one, having trained on both of these buses whilst at PMT in 1978. My assessment was undertaken on the aforementioned Leyland Leopard 927 (927 UVT).

Leekensian

28/04/20 – 06:27

I did my initial PSV training at PMT on dual control (and Metalastik toggle link suspension fitted) AEC Reliance 470 5596. I progressed to PD2 L466 (which suited me as it had a sliding cab door) and finally PD2 L337 which I wasn’t keen on. The Instructors were Gerry, Sam And George Clews who was the Examiner. He somewhat reluctantly advised me that I had passed my test. Something about being an Engineer, I wouldn’t have to drive a bus in anger!!! Happy days

Ian Wild

29/04/20 – 06:24

I recall that the primary use of T5596 was to train Conductors in order to obtain a Car licence.
George Clews took me on an assessment to drive a Company car but my PSV test was undertaken by a Ministry Examiner. The man in charge of the PMT car pool was an affable man, Bill Corden who I remember was also the Chauffeur to the General Manager. His initial greeting when encountering him was ‘haven’t we got good jobs’. Indeed happy days.
There is a link on the SCT’61 site regarding T5596.

Leekensian

30/04/20 – 05:54

I remember Bill Corden, great bloke in charge of the private car garage. Bill was very helpful and encouraging to me. His usual greeting to me was ‘How’s the fleet!”
Characters!!

Ian Wild

PMT – Daimler Roadliner – 6000 EH – SN1000


Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1964
Daimler Roadliner SRC6
Marshall B50F

This is one of the prototype Daimler Roadliners which originally had the Clayton COMPAS heating and ventilation system fitted. There were two radiators, one each side of the bus just in front of the rear wheels which had the twin function of engine cooling and saloon heating. Sounds good in concept but like a lot of things at that time didn’t work reliably in practice. In January 1969 it reappeared with a front mounted radiator and conventional heating, the only PMT Roadliner so fitted. The radiator is hidden behind the front grille, which may look familiar to some as it was the grill fitted to the contemporary Ford Transit van. I cannot remember now why PMT fitted a front radiator to SN1000 and not a rear mounted one in the engine bay like the rest of the fleet. Incidentally the last 6 of the Marshall bodied Roadliners fleet numbers S1086-S1091 also had the COMPAS system – and they were no more reliable than SN1000!!
This was the only PMT Roadliner with air suspension, all the others had Metalastik toggle link suspension. The photo was taken on a test run near Clayton Schools on 20th January 1969.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

I have driven these buses and they were a total disaster, PMT only kept them for about 7 years.

Michael Crofts

I remember the PMT Roadliners. Some of them had home made looking slits in the panels behind the back wheels to improve engine cooling. They were very noisy.

JT

Yes very noisy but sounding totally unlike a bus. It was a sort of deep “Ewwww” muffled roar. When North Western Fleetline 189 was fitted with the same Cummins V6 you could hear it descending Rassbottom St in Stalybridge (On the joint route 90 to Marple) long before it turned into the bus station.
I now regret that I never did take a ride on a Roadliner when I had the chance. A Potteries mate says they were just as deafening from the inside, and that the later Perkins engined ones whilst marginally more reliable, used to waggle their tails dramatically when driven at high revs.
Darlington and Chesterfield Corporations got long service lives out of theirs, whether that suggests they overcame many of the problems, or that the local councillors refused to give up on them for the costs and red faces involved in replacing them early?

Keith Jackson

When I was a boy the PMT Roadliners operated on route 13 to Bentilee. Apart from the noise the bodywork rattled fit to disintegrate! There was an emergency exit window half way along the off side the locking mechanism for which used to jiggle about when the bus was stationary. A big disappointment after the AEC Reliance 590s.

John Tinsley

Our problem at PMT was that we just had too many of the things!! The largest fleet of Roadliners anywhere in the world. The Plaxton bodied ones (timber framed bodies)could possibly have gone on to nearer normal service lives if re engined with Perkins V8s – but at what cost? The Marshall bodied ones (steel framed bodies)were disastrous and although we rebuilt a few at enormous cost in man hours they weren’t a right lot better. By 1972 failures of the Metalastik toggle link suspension units were becoming prevalent. These were expensive to buy and a nightmare to replace. Panhard rod bushes were a recurrent failure – again taking much longer to replace than a leaf spring on a conventional vehicle. We used saloon seats from withdrawn Marshall vehicles to replace the worn out high backed seats in some of Reliances SN801-810 making them more suitable for urban work and less susceptible to vandalism. Happy days!!

Ian Wild

Just a bit of clarification about the ‘home made looking slits’ (ref JT). They were fibreglass corner panels made in house in the fibreglass shop at Stoke and as JT says, the idea was to provide additional engine bay cooling. To the best of my recollection, they were fitted to the 47 Cummins engined Plaxton and Marshall bodied buses. I don’t think they were fitted to the later batch of 10 Plaxtons with Perkins V8 engines.

Ian Wild

08/02/17 – 16:55

I worked with Cummins at that time and spent a year or so carrying out a series of engine changes and modifications for Belfast Corporation. As it was the time of the troubles, suspect much of my efforts ended up as bonfires.
V6 engine wet liners incredibly sensitive to both corrosion and erosion/electrolysis if water filters maintenance neglected. Becoming porous within months.

Mike Hyde

PMT – Daimler Roadliner SRP8 – WEH 130G – 130

Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1969
Daimler Roadliner SRP8
Plaxton B46D

130 was the first of the final batch of ten Roadliners (130-139) to be delivered to PMT. They had Plaxton bodies to their standard timber framed design with BET style front and rear screens. Apart from the Perkins V8.510 engine, they were similar mechanically to the previous deliveries although they had the miniature Westinghouse air gear shift with a sixth position to operate the centre doors. The Perkins engine was a vast improvement on the Cummins V6 but did suffer from premature cylinder bore wear causing high oil consumption possibly due to some inadequacy in the air filtration system.
The bodies were built with a higher floor level requiring an entrance step (earlier buses had a step free entrance). They were built to the dual door layout then briefly in vogue. Heated windscreens were an innovation on these buses controlled by a wind up clockwork timer(!!) which quickly proved unsuitable for heavy duty bus operation. Some early deliveries went to Stafford Garage and I recall a report from the Inspector there about the indelicacy of young mini skirted mothers when retrieving their push chairs from the luggage pen which had rather a high rail round it!! 130 was the only one in the batch to have the once standard cream panel above the saloon windows, 131 onwards had all red roofs. These were also the first new buses not to have the familiar prefix letters to the fleet number (following on from SN1129 which was the last of the short Marshall bodied Leopards delivered the previous year). The above photo was taken on 1st July 1969 shortly after delivery at the weighbridge at Shelton Iron and Steel where we took the first of each batch of new buses for weighing. The driver is Bill Davies who was a Management Trainee at the time.

Copyright Ian Wild

This is a shot of an earlier Roadliner KVT 180E fleet number S1080 being towed into Stoke Central Works shortly after being burnt out at Swynnerton on 25th March 1969 it was rebodied with an identical body to the 130-139 batch returning to service on 1st August 1969.
PMT cancelled a further order for Roadliners and substituted single deck Fleetlines but date wise they are outside the time period of this website.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

10/03/11 – 07:48

I was the first driver to go into service with 138, it was a Saturday afternoon I was based at Newcastle garage and both 138 and 139 were put on the Burslem Silverdale service on the shift change over. I don’t remember driving anything so fast and it was a struggle not to run early on this service, going up hills was not a problem at all with these vehicles it was “just like driving a mail train as they say”

Michael Crofts

28/07/11 – 15:27

Funny you should mention 138; I’m sure that was the one I saw at Preston North End’s Deepdale ground in the late 1970s having gone there to watch Port Vale play. Only the driver of our Bostock’s coach, who was as big a bus nut as I was, and myself made any comment. It had been sold by PMT to a local independent.

Mel Harwood

22/05/12 – 07:54

I would imagine that it was 137 you saw in Preston as it was latterly owned by Holmeswood Coaches of Rufford … coincidentally the present owners of Bostocks.

Martyn Hearson

10/05/17 – 07:18

I remember Roadliners that West Riding operated, on a trip from Horbury to Flockton on the Wakefield Huddersfield service I think the service number was 89 or 86 this particular Saturday was entering Flockton the Netherton Midgley side and there is a sharp left hand bend just as we approached the bend round the corner came lorry cutting the corner on our side of the road the driver could only put the bus as near to wall and trees on our side of the road as he could and hope that we missed each other which we did ,from the front of the bus came a substantial number of choice Yorkshire adjectives expressing the doubt that our West Riding had of the driver of the lorrys parentage and when we got to Flockton the driver removed the assorted foliage from front nearside wingmirror mounting and doors and nearside open windows, as we got off in Flockton our driver said to my mum are you an lad or rite lass, mum said yes the driver said aye lass that were close at least I haven’t scratched it they only got this b***** yesterday!

David Parkin

03/03/20 – 06:53

From a laymans point of view and having travelled many times on these buses I always thought they offered a much better ride than the previously delivered Roadliners. Travelling on the early batches of Roadliners was much more of a bouncy ride, so was there a change to the suspension on the last batch?

Leekensian

12/03/20 – 06:05

No, the final batch had Metalastik Toggle Link suspension units the same as the previous Roadliners. Thinking about it, I recall a better ride-maybe different rated shock absorbers?

Ian Wild

18/03/20 – 06:49

I recall that two of the original batches of Roadliners were converted to Perkins engines – S1065 & S1078 spring to mind, but did not prevent their early withdrawal along with the majority of the Roadliners.

Leekensian