Potteries Motor Traction 1960 Leyland Titan PD3/3 Willowbrook H39/34F
This was the last front engined bus delivered to PMT and was ordered by Baxters of Hanley who had sold out to PMT in December 1958. The Leyland PD/Willowbrook combination was clearly Baxters preferred design following on from the two Leyland PD2/20 supplied in 1955 and 1957. These two were of lowbridge layout (indeed as were all the double deckers taken over) and was also PMT’s preference due to the significant number of low railway bridges in the area. I wonder why then Baxters ordered this bus as a highbridge? The main batch of PD3s delivered to PMT had exposed radiators and this bus was one of only two delivered new with BMMO style concealed radiators. The other oddity was the vacuum braked specification which from discussions on this site about the stopping powers of PD3s would make this one even worse – but I can’t recall any driver complaints. It spent almost all its life operating from Biddulph Depot where I suppose the small number of drivers would be more likely to accept its idiosyncrasies. The bus is seen outside Stoke Depot in October 1969. It was withdrawn in 1971 and found its way inevitably to a Barnsley scrapyard.
I appreciate that ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ gives the seating as H39/34F, but 34 seems incredibly high for the lower deck capacity – the normal maximum for a 30′ front-engined forward-entrance double-decker being 31. Anyone any first-hand experience of this bus? Another thing I find surprising is the statement that it ‘inevitably’ found its way to a Barnsley scrapyard – high-capacity front-entrance double-deckers were almost unknown on the secondhand market in 1971, and I can’t help but think that there must have been a reason for this vehicle’s early withdrawal and scrapping.
David Call
21/11/12 – 14:47
I think you’re correct David, considering that PMT’s own PD3/4’s dated from 1957 and lasted a couple of years longer than this one. As you say, this would have made a sought after secondhand vehicle in 1971 and would perhaps have been snapped up by someone such as Berresfords of Cheddleton had it been sound. Berresfords did in fact acquire some ex-PMT PD3/4’s in 1973.
Chris Barker
21/11/12 – 17:30
After an accident too serious to warrant repair, perhaps? Then either directly to Barnsley or after spares recovery. I’d imagine there’s something in an issue of BUSES ILLUSTRATED of the time, if anyone has a copy.
Pete Davies
22/11/12 – 07:20
An even better source of information would be PSV Circle publication 3PD1 – PMT fleet history 1953-82
David Call
22/11/12 – 11:55
According to the book ‘A Century of North Staffordshire Buses’ this PD3 was ordered by Baxters as a lowbridge vehicle in 1958. Baxters were acquired by PMT in December 1958 and they were in time to change the specification to highbridge. Presumably it was originally intended to be rear entrance because I don’t think Willowbrook ever produced a 30ft lowbridge front entrance body, so perhaps the vehicle that we see was the best option for PMT, if they didn’t want another back loader. It appears to have been a normal withdrawal by PMT in December 1971 and after passing to Cowleys, was cut up for scrap. The ex-Becketts Northern Counties bodied Fleetline was withdrawn by PMT when only ten years old!
Potteries Motor Traction 1957 Leyland Titan PD2/20 Willowbrook L27/28R
This bus was new to Baxters of Hanley as their fleet number 11 in March 1957 and was acquired by PMT when they bought out the Baxter business in December 1958. It was somewhat different from the contemporary PMT purchased Leylands having a concealed radiator and rear entrance and by 1968 was one of only three double deckers in the fleet without platform doors. A similar but slightly older bus from the Baxter fleet became PMT L510 which was rebuilt with a MCW style top deck after an altercation with the notorious Glebe Street railway bridge adjacent to Stoke Station. L679 was allocated to Stoke Garage and is seen in Woodhouse Street outside its home depot on 10th October 1970. By this time it was normally only used for a morning and afternoon peak hour working on the Longton to Newcastle Estates group of services (numbers 98-103) where it was odd man out amongst the Atlanteans and Fleetlines. By the date of this photo was used in between peaks for driver training – note the slot for an L plate above the radiator grille. It became a permanent driver training vehicle in December 1972 and was withdrawn for disposal in 1976.
Would I be correct in thinking that these ex Baxters vehicles were the only PD2’s ever bodied by Willowbrook in this style? By 1957, Willowbrook had changed their design for deckers to the more rounded style, as on the Barton PS1 rebuilds and several deliveries to that design actually pre-date the vehicle shown. I believe the very last one to this ‘old’ design was a Daimler CVG6 supplied to Blue Bus Services in 1960.
Chris Barker
08/04/11 – 05:00
Yes I did a bit of driver training in this vehicle but I must admit I liked my normal training bus better which was LEH 745 L337 NCME body.
Michael Crofts
28/04/11 – 06:36
I passed my PSV test in 1968 on L337, I preferred my training turns on L466 (now preserved) as it had a sliding cab door which I was able to leave open. I remember struggling with hill starts on Penkhull New Road!! The Chief Instructor / Examiner was George Clews but I don’t remember the names of the other two Instructors. Rather unusually the Driving School reported to the Chief Engineer rather than the Traffic Manager.
Ian Wild
06/05/11 – 06:46
Hi Ian, Yes my instructor was George Clews but my examiner was from the D.O.T he took me into a cul-de-sac by mistake and I had a devil of a job doing a shunt to turn around with 337. Yes those were the days on Penkhull bank….
Potteries Motor Traction 1968 Leyland Leopard PSU4A/4R Marshall B43F
A pleasant Sunday afternoon scene in May 1970 outside the church at the Bagnall terminus of service 44 from Hanley shows one of Milton Depots pair of short Leopards. This batch of 20 buses was a welcome relief after the 48 Daimler Roadliner buses delivered in the previous three years. These short length Leopards were ultra reliable machines and ideal for the rural services operated by Cheadle, Longton, Newcastle and Milton Depots where they replaced early AEC Reliances.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
24/08/12 – 08:19
Nice shot! “This batch of 20 buses was a welcome relief after the 48 Daimler Roadliners . . .” All I have read about the Roadliners indicates that the term ‘unmitigated disaster’ is too mild. How could Daimler have got it so wrong?
Pete Davies
24/08/12 – 08:20
Said in three simple words – ultra reliable machines. Never was convinced that Volvo were that much batter than AEC but Leyland suffered from association with British Leyland (Motor Corporation). I have great respect and affection for the Leopard, AN68 and Tiger. They may not have been as flash or quick as the Volvos but they plodded on – you trusted them to keep going.
David Oldfield
24/08/12 – 12:19
A pair of these are preserved namely 1127 – TVT 127G and 1128 – TVT 128G
Chris Hough
24/08/12 – 12:20
Pete. Everyone got it wrong apart from Bristol with rear engined buses – Daimler got more wrong than anyone else, especially choice of engine. As a “coach” man, my top three are ZF Reliance, RE and Leopard. I preferred the Leyland engined RE and, significantly, PMT turned to the RE – albeit late in the RE’s lifespan.
David Oldfield
25/08/12 – 07:40
David, Ta! I had an idea that most of the problem was the choice of engine.
Pete Davies
25/08/12 – 07:42
David, you can add Seddon to the list of rear engined design failures. No doubt because of his debt of gratitude to Robert Seddon in the early years of his engineering career, Geoff Hilditch, in his writings, is quite kind about the shortcomings of the Pennine RU, but it was undoubtedly a severe disappointment to those who tried hard to encourage competition with British Leyland. The only really satisfactory Seddon psv design was the Pennine VII, which proved to be a sound and reliable performer.
Roger Cox
25/08/12 – 07:42
Re Chris Hough’s posting of 24/08/12 12:19 about the two preserved PMT Leopards 1127 & 1128, here is a photo I took of them both at the Wirksworth Bus Rally at the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway on 1st July this year.
Eric Bawden
25/08/12 – 08:53
As always, seeing sisters side by side highlights the detail differences. In this case, the indicator displays, the “company” logo versus the NBC one on the front, the little ventilator under the windscreen . . . And this is just from a look at the bus front!
Pete Davies
25/08/12 – 10:54
Pete. There was another problem that everyone except Bristol had, as well. Heavy engines overhanging the rear axle causing bodies, and chassis, to flex (and sometimes break). Ingenious use of the Lodekka drop axle enabled Bristol to shorten the overhang on the RE and thus reduce the stresses on both chassis and body. The Seddon RU mentioned by Roger was, as much as anything, meant to be an RE clone to help RE operators out who were suffering delivery delays (a “British Leyland” problem with all their brands at the time). Crosville bought hordes of the things and were stung. The Ward Dalesman GRX was a further unsuccessful attempt. The Seddon Pennine VII, on the other hand was a “Leopard with Gardner engine” that “British Leyland” refused to supply to the Scottish Bus Group.
David Oldfield
25/08/12 – 12:27
And we all know what happened to British Leyland over their perceptions of what the customer wanted and what they were prepared to supply: among other things, we got foreign trucks and buses, and cars with traditional boot lids (even on cars with the hatchback shape) when other car makers were introducing hatchbacks, etc!
Pete Davies
27/08/12 – 07:53
A common consensus is the generally uselessness of early rear engined saloons Interestingly some operators managed to make the beast work. Preston made the Panther work as did Hull equally Leeds 150 Swifts had a normal lifespan. While others quickly sold them off as to fault prone or too costly to maintain. I suppose that fashion also played a part whereby if undertaking A was getting rid of the things undertaking B down the road would do as well. To my mind this meant that Leyland could pour money into the National and not further develop the other chassis particularly the Bristol RE which was streets ahead of anything similar from the Leyland empire.
Chris Hough
28/08/12 – 14:35
These Leopards were awful (my opinion) it was all down to the cab layout the windscreen was about 6 feet away so you had to stand up to wipe the screen also had a low driving position. The only good thing was they were warm in the winter. we operated them on the Newcastle – Market Drayton service (64) and the other problem was they did not have a AEC Badge on the front.
Michael Crofts
28/08/12 – 17:55
Well, Michael, I will agree with you wholeheartedly on the matter of AEC, but have to say that Devon General’s similar AH505 Reliances – ie with Marshall bodies – had similarly huge cabs with the screen miles away. So you can blame Leyland for the low driving position, which they rectified on Leopards after 1969, but Marshall are to blame for your trek to clean the screen! [I assume you were after an AEC chassis and engine behind the badge? I knew a coach operator in High Wycombe (Bucks) who ran a Reliance with a Bedford engine…..!]
David Oldfield
28/08/12 – 17:56
All Leylands had that problem, Michael!
Eric Bawden
29/08/12 – 07:23
Just noticed another difference, on the two preserved examples (1127/8). 1127 has sliding vents behind driver’s signalling window, 1128 doesn’t.
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 12:20
We had three similar Leopard PSU4/Marshalls to this at Halifax. 358-360 (NHE 8-10F) came to Calderdale J.O.C. from Yorkshire Traction as part of the Todmorden takeover arrangements. Nice enough looking buses, they too suffered from the faraway windscreens and very low driving position. They had the original style of large Pneumocyclic gearchange pedestal which got completely in the way, and to get in and out of the cab seat required the skills of a contortionist. With the seat wound up high enough to see forward and reach the pedals one’s knees were rubbing against the underside of the steering wheel, and one’s left leg had a struggle to fit around the gearchange pedestal. They were extremely uncomfortable and inconvenient buses to drive. Despite the relative indestructability of the earlier Leopard chassis, I am told that the build quality of the Marshall bodies left a lot to be desired. Despite the apparent similarity of the BET-style bodies built by various bodybuilders, it would seem that some were a lot better than others, and that the Met.Cam/Weymann version was generally the most durable. Despite this, 360 was badly damaged in a collision and sold to a Barnsley breaker, but later it turned up in Malta rebuilt and magnificently presented by one of the island’s most enthusiastic bus owners.
John Stringer
19/01/13 – 06:12
Having owned a Marshall bodied short Ribble Leopard for almost 15 years I find it hard to believe that they were such poor service vehicles. I must admit there is a certain amount of dexterity required to become seated in the drivers seat, but once seated I have not yet found any problem with the driving position. Surely windscreens on most half cabs and other 1960’s vehicles are a similar distance away? Whilst I have not driven this particular bus fully laden, the steering could be entertaining, I find it a pleasure to drive.
John Davis
20/04/13 – 07:17
Re- remarks on variations with 127/128, yes there’s lots more inside and out, we have a boot but no doors, 127 has a disabled chair lift! 127 has 2 roof vents, 128 has 1, coach seating in 127, service seats in 128. The luggage racks differ, as do cabs, as 128 was altered along with destination box layout by previous owner. I cannot explain, or took the time to find out why all this happened, as owner/secretary of ‘TVT 128G group’ what I can say is that 128 has served us well over the 13 years we have owned her, no major repairs other than a radiator leak/broken jubilee clip/1 leaf spring but she’s a good runner.
Keith Broomhall
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
20/07/15 – 06:49
Enjoyed a couple of laps around Oulton Park yesterday aboard TVT 128G, one sighting lap and one ‘fast’ lap! Wouldn’t have been half as much fun on a modern bus.
Potteries Motor Traction 1962 Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R Plaxton Panorama C48F
C920 was one of a batch of five Leyland Leopard coaches to the recently permitted 36ft length delivered in 1962. They were used on tours until 1968 when they were modified for one man operation which included fitting the roof mounted destination box. During my time at PMT they were allocated to Hanley Depot where they were reasonably suited to the longer distance services such as Hanley – Sandbach, Hanley – Crewe etc but not good on the more urban routes. My recollection is heavy steering, heavy clutch and heavy gear change – in fact they were just a heavy vehicle! The next batch of coaches were Reliance 590s, a much more lively and lighter vehicle to drive. (That should suit David O)! The photo is taken in the preservation era on 9th September 1979 at the West Riding 75th Anniversary Rally at Belle Isle Depot in Wakefield. The programme records it as recently acquired by the Potteries Omnibus Preservation Society – I wonder if it is still around?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
08/09/13 – 08:30
You know me so well, Ian. Maybe that’s the real reason SUT got 333? Did it escape from an intended batch of six for PMT? Not only were they heavy, heavy, heavy, they had that low cramped driving position and – care of gear ratios – slow. I commuted regularly on the X48 to Manchester and initially it was on North Western’s early Y types on the same chassis. Only once did I get the feeling that they could be good with a driver who managed to DRIVE the thing – keeping the thing in third at the CORRECT revs and storming over the hills on Woodhead. Being an AEC man doesn’t prevent me saying that the Leopard eventually developed in its later years into a good coach – but they never got the ratios right on the standard Pneumo-cyclic box.
David Oldfield
PS: The roof box looks like one of those virtual reality head sets.
09/09/13 – 06:41
David’s comments about North Western’s early Y types is interesting. I regularly rode on those as a teenager on the X5 services to and from London and from a passenger’s point of view they were certainly lively enough on the flat and the more gentle gradients. I also rode Western Scottish’s versions to and from Glasgow. The A6 over Shap and A74 over Beattock never seemed to present a problem, even when having to get around some fairly slow moving eight wheelers from Southall and Leyland which, when laden and often drawing a trailer, would really struggle. Given Ian’s recollections regarding the heavy handling of the vehicle, it strikes me as a little odd that North Western, as a keen user of both AEC and Leyland, put all its coach eggs in the Leyland basket from the early 1960s onwards with the Leopard as the chosen chassis.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/09/13 – 09:00
The only area where the early Leopards were superior to the AEC was that they went in the direction you turned the wheel, where as the AEC’s had a tendency to wander. But you’re right about the later Leopard’s David, however, an AEC Reliance with a six speed ZF would knock spots off any Leopard, perhaps that’s why BL ‘not Leyland Motors’ killed if off?
Ronnie Hoye
09/09/13 – 14:15
SUT’s drivers hated 333 [it was the same age and identical to PMT C920] for the reasons stated. The next Leopards only arrived, in the mid ’70s, after NBC take over. I drove a 1976 example with a subsequent owner and was agreeably surprised by how it performed. By then a higher driving position, power steering and the 5 speed pneumo-cyclic box (not to mention a bigger engine) had addressed a number of the earlier criticisms. Ian’s (and SUT’s) criticisms were widespread but the Leopard did have some virtues – but maybe more for the engineer than the driver. It was, to quote a Commercial Motor journalist who was/is also an operator, a reliable plodder. When I once put Phil’s question to a North Western driver he said, “Well the Leopard – especially semi-auto – is nigh on idiot proof but not every one can drive a six speed ZF.” Chris Y and Ian will agree that a ZF is not difficult if you drive properly (that is sensitively) but I know people, who ought to know better, who can’t! Lots of Leopard coaches had two speed rear axles. I always find these fun. There’s a sense of achievement using the splitter well – and this no doubt helped the performance of early Leopards. If you were a Leyland fleet, there was no doubt enough to keep you faithful – but I preferred the (Ribble) Leyland engined REs on the Manchester – Scotland services.
David Oldfield
10/09/13 – 16:30
I was still at Percy Main the first time I encountered an AEC Reliance with a ZF box, a Duple bodied demonstrator turned up, and those of us who were around at the time were invited to have a drive. We were all experienced with manual boxes, which on occasion required a bit of brut force and ignorance. We sat round for the pep talk, and we were informed that “You don’t need to grab the gear stick, all you need with a ZF is gentle guidance with the palm of the hand, and it will do all the work for you” Guess what? He was dead right.
Ronnie Hoye
11/09/13 – 08:30
As someone who worked for Southdown for nearly 22 years I had experience of various types of Leopard as well as an assortment of East Kent Reliance on South Coast Express work I have to agree with the previous comments. The Leopard most certainly required considerable muscle to drive the steering and all the pedals were heavy to use although I found the large treadle throttle was comfortable in use and as Ronnie Hoye says the steering had no tendency to wander unlike the Reliance which needed constant attention but was lighter to use. The two speed axle, which was fitted to all our Leopards both buses and coaches, did indeed help the performance especially on the O.600 engine models on the later O.680 engine models it really boosted the performance, although they were something that needed to be used properly to get the best out of them which sadly all too many drivers didn’t bother to do We had a batch of seven PSU5’s in 1981 which were fitted with a splitter box a much smoother operation, the main difference being that being part of the gearbox it changed as soon as the switch was operated irrespective of throttle position whereas the two speed being part of the rear axle would only change when the throttle was released taking the load off the mechanism, so could be preselected if necessary. Having said all that about the Leopard I still found the Reliance much more enjoyable to drive the 6 speed box being a delight to use needing only the lightest of touches to get the best from it which after the effort needed on the manual Leopard was such a pleasure the brakes were also much lighter and progressive to use. The engine always felt much more free revving and, more powerful, I only drove one semi automatic Reliance after which I still preferred the manual version. The later Leopards with 680 engines, pneumocyclic gearboxes and high driving position were indeed much better vehicles but never as good as the 6 speed Reliance
Diesel Dave
11/09/13 – 16:30
Well, I’ve said it before – i) ZF Reliance ii) RELH/REMH – (preferably 6L) iii) TRCTL11 Tiger iv) late Leopard. That is my hall of coaching fame – with apologies to Arab LUF fans. (I neither rode on nor drove any so I cannot have a view!)
David Oldfield
12/09/13 – 08:30
Couldn’t agree more Dave, the Leopard with raised driving position, 680 engine and 5 speed pneumocyclic gearbox made a very good bus or coach. PMT had 20 Leopard buses delivered 1962/3 with manual gearboxes which weren’t bad vehicles. It was the five coaches converted for omo that just weren’t suited to their new role. The contemporary Reliance 590 buses although better than the earlier 470s still had problems with cylinder head gaskets/cylinder liner seal failures and the hydraulically operated clutches gave a fair degree of trouble. Much easier to steer and change gear on though!
Ian Wild
12/09/13 – 08:30
No need to apologise, David, since we are talking about different eras. I have only ever said that I think the Guy Arab LUF was the finest coach chassis of its time. As for late Leopards and Reliances, the only good thing to come out of the demise of the Reliance was the Leopard with 6-speed ZF gearbox, which is what it should always have had.
Peter Williamson
12/09/13 – 16:30
The 470 and 590 lost AEC a number of friends – despite the 691 and 760 addressing most of the problems – but the ZF Reliance (especially 691/760 powered) was a thoroughbred. Leyland still didn’t get it quite right, though, Peter. The ZF used on the Reliance was an overdrive unit (5th was direct), that used on the Leopard had a direct 6th. [Rather like the strange unit used on the X reg Midland Scottish Leopards. Ostensibly a 5 speeder with CAV change (ie like Monocontrol and not the normal Westinghouse pedestal), it was more like a 4 speeder with a crawler below 1st. I drove one in preservation and it was odd to be able to start regularly in “3rd”.
David Oldfield
11/08/14 – 17:32
AEC vs Leyland at North Western Engineering staff at Macclesfield always told me they mistrusted AECs for always blowing gaskets. Leylands more friendly to maintain.
Bob Bracegirdle
06/03/21 – 07:09
During the early/mid 80s I travelled on National express coaches nearly every other weekend. They were mainly Leyland Leopard coaches, usually with 680s and the 5 speed air assisted box. Some did have 2 speed axles, but these were much rarer. The coaches had a. Huge gap between 4th and 5th, which affected there performance on motorway inclines, as the vehicle had to reduce speed to 50-55mph to change down. This was always where others coaches such as the Volvo B10s would come past. However, on the flat, many of these coaches would easily reach 80mph for long periods. I once travelled on a Leopard with an early TL11 and air assisted box with twin speed axle, that was the fastest coach I ever travelled on. It only dipped to 70mph on the inclines not 55 and powered past the Volvo models by 5-10mph. It also held 80 on the flat. Seems bizarre thinking of coaches going that fast, but at the time they would often been in the outside lane on the motorway going as fast they were capable of with the driver with his foot on the boards. The Leopards sounded great at speed, and growling around the London Victoria and Digbeth stations. Amazing times.
Dr Chris Davies
13/03/21 – 06:36
I seem to recall that the restriction of coach/bus speed limits on motorways was because of a spate of minor accidents, then a biggy, when a coach went off the motorway and down some some sort of large drain vertically, killing a lot of pensioners. I think it was near Bristol. I think it took a while because they had to get the whole of the EU to agree the limits and a fair time for vehicles with speed governors to come along.
Potteries Motor Traction 1961 Leyland Atlantean PDR1 Weymann L39/33F
This is one of a batch of 105 Atlanteans delivered between 1959/1961 and the above picture was taken at the water point at the PMT Newcastle under Lyme depot. It was very rare for this type of vehicle to do the Leek route as it was normally worked by Leyland Titan PD3’s and this bus would normally be on the Longton Newcastle Estates route. So it was a pleasure for me and a first to go to Leek in an Atlantean as I liked driving these splendid vehicles unlike the Daimler Fleetline which I detested. The prefix L in front of the fleet number denotes a low height body which was one of the reasons why this type of bus was normally on the Longton service as there was a low railway bridge in Longton. During the Potteries annual holidays double deck vehicles would be used on the express service’s to Morecambe and Blackpool, the buses would be either Atlanteans or Fleetlines with Alexander bodies the latter being hard work with their hydraulic throttles and having a top speed of 42 mph, the Atlanteans on the other hand would do between 52-55mph.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
22/02/11 – 10:06
Thanks, Michael, for this interesting picture of another early BET company Atlantean. As you say, they could really motor, but they didn’t half drink the diesel when doing so. That was just one of the reasons why some operators changed to Fleetlines; lower overall maintenance costs was another.
Roy Burke
22/02/11 – 19:54
Good to see this photo of what was the most common type of bus in the PMT fleet in my time working there. Longton Depot had some of the earliest batch and achieved phenomenal engine mileages of 400,000+ between failures. Frank Ling was the Depot Engineer there and maintained a very high standard of maintenance. My first winter there was a cold one and the Atlanteans frequently failed with the air system unloader valve frozen causing the vehicle to lose all air pressure and hence drive. The unloader valve was mounted under the cab in one of the coldest locations on the vehicle. A rag on a steel bar, dipped in diesel and set alight was the quickest means of unfreezing the unloader and restoring normal operation. Flywheel gland failures were another problem coating the engine bay in oil with the consequent fire risk (wiring fires in the Atlantean engine bays were not uncommon not aided by the wiring insulation becoming brittle with age and falling off). Quite a number of Atlanteans had to be rewired, some being dealt with by local Contractors as the level of work exceeded the available labour in Central Works at Stoke. Leyland tried adding a fan bolted to the fluid flywheel (more correctly the fluid-friction clutch) on a number of buses but there was no real improvement. As originally built, the chassis had rear light units fitted on the rear sub frame and which shone through holes in the fibreglass engine cover. PMT later fitted high level rear lights in the rear ‘tween decks panels thus eliminating the wiring to the sub frame lights located as they were in a very oily environment. The main rear lights were fitted to the lift up rear engine cover and the additional lights were necessary to provide rear lights at night if it were necessary to open the engine cover whilst on the road at night. Oh happy days!!
Ian Wild
22/02/11 – 19:55
The early Atlantean in low height form was a modified lowbridge bus in reality on the other hand the Fleetline with its drop centre rear axle was a true lowheight vehicle from the off It took Leyland until 1966 (four years after the first Fleetlines entered service) before they offered a low height chassis which removed the low bridge layout from the top deck. Having said this the Atlantean PDR1/2 was not one of Leylands finest although when it appeared the AN68 was what the Atlantean should have been from the off
Chris Hough
26/01/13 – 06:24
The seating in the forward part of the upper upper deck on these buses was too low in relation to the window line whilst the rear rows of 4 were too high! This is except the initial row of 4 which were mounted straight onto the raised rear platform resulting in an excellent match between seat height and window level.
Potteries Motor Traction 1953 Guy Arab IV Weymann H32/26R
These vehicles were ordered by Northern General and diverted to PMT. The destination blind boxes were quickly converted to PMT spec. A very poor bus in performance and ride quality having a Gardener 5cyl engine. Best part about them was light steering and in the summer you could drive with the cab door open. Although reliable they never strayed far from the depot. I managed to do 42 mph once in one.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
09/12/13 – 09:26
These had all gone by the time I was at PMT. Being highbridge I would imagine they were allocated to Newcastle Depot. I well remember the poor performance of the 1956 Daimler CVG5s but those later fitted with a 6LW were a much better bus.
Ian Wild
09/12/13 – 14:40
I think the Orion looks better on a traditional-radiator Guy Arab IV than on any other chassis. Michael: when you spoke of poor ride quality, was that just the vibration from the 5LW, or did they give a choppy ride as well? I’m curious because Aldershot & District had Orion bodies on one batch of their Dennis K4s and found that the spring settings that suited the heavier East Lancs batch very well had to be modified for the Orions. Good to know that you found the steering light. I’ve read elsewhere that some drivers found Arab IV steering heavy, which in view of the excellence of Guy design at that time surprised me. A maintenance issue? Or was the light steering of this Potteries batch attributable to the lightness of the 5LW+Orion combination? 42 mph sounds pretty spectacular, by the way. I wonder whether these machines had a high final-drive ratio, which would yield wonderful fuel consumption on long, flat runs, but would certainly contribute to the impression of sluggishness on start-stop work.
Ian Thompson
09/12/13 – 17:32
Ian, I’ve just seen the photo and your comment about how the Orion looks and couldn’t agree more. I remember seeing these in the Newcastle areas (both Tyneside and the Potteries) as a boy and they always looked impressive. Somehow the solid colour scheme helps.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/12/13 – 17:55
Just a thought: I have read elsewhere that differences in steering characteristics between buses of the same type with different operators were sometimes caused by the fitting of different tyres.
Peter Williamson
10/12/13 – 06:44
Peter, different tyres certainly would make some difference.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/12/13 – 06:44
At PMT a white steering wheel denoted a highbridge bus. Did the NGT buses of this type have normal black steering wheels?
Ian Wild
10/12/13 – 06:45
The harsh ride was down to the suspension. At the time I think we were running on Firestone tyres at Newcastle Depot.
Michael Crofts
10/12/13 – 15:18
Does anyone know the location in this picture? I think the destination blind reads Newcastle via Garner Street.
Chris Barker
10/12/13 – 15:21
The means of indicating height or width to drivers (and bus wash operators) is a subject in itself. Sheffield and Chesterfield buses carried a letter W on the dash to indicate 8 feet width, but for whose benefit? Preserved Chesterfield 225 has a yellow steering wheel, which I was told indicated highbridge. Some Southend vehicles carried a red one – was this to indicate height or width? Bristol Tramways/Omnibus fitted white steering wheels to their 8-foot wide buses to warn drivers not to take one over a narrow bridge across the harbour. ECOC and several other Tilling Group companies did the same but it cannot have been general Group policy as Thames Valley KSWs had a black one.
Geoff Kerr
10/12/13 – 15:21
I disagree, Michael, in my opinion the harsh ride was due to the poor construction and extreme lightness of the early Orion bodies. The second batch we had at Percy Main, FT 9003/7 were an improvement on the first ones, FT 7893/6, however, the 1956 Park Royal bodied Arab IV was a superb vehicle in every sense bar one, NGT still specified the 5LW rather than opting for the 6LW. Having said that, they could scale the North face of the Eiger if asked to do so. As for speed, I think they must have had a high ratio diff, as they could get up to around the fifty mark. White steering wheels? The only ones I can remember at Percy Main were on the Daimler Fleetlines.
Ronnie Hoye
11/12/13 – 07:04
Here is a picture of the Guy H542 when brand new
and also a picture of same having had a bit of a hard life. (I do not own either picture)
Michael Crofts
11/12/13 – 08:09
Michael’s second photo reminds me that PMT’s vehicles in the mid to late 1960s often had a care worn, shabby look.
Phil Blinkhorn
12/12/13 – 07:13
The red Steering Wheels at Southend was to warn that the bus was a highbridge and therefore banned from services 7/8 which had very low railway bridges.
Philip Carlton
09/12/15 – 06:04
Chris Barker asked about location. This image is Trinity St in Hanley, opposite the then Odean Cinema. I regularly travelled this route in late 50s/ early 60s. Little did I know that a decade later I’d be driving for PMT, though from Stoke Depot.
Potteries Motor Traction 1964 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Alexander H41/31F
Photographed in June 1970 at Manchester, and mercifully still retaining its Potteries livery and logo, is Daimler CRG6LX Fleetline No. L 1001, 5001 VT, with Alexander H41/31F bodywork, the first of a batch of twenty five delivered in April 1964. Ten similar vehicles followed in 1965. L 1001 seems to be remarkably coy about showing its destination, reducing its passenger information down to a sticker in the windscreen. Was this route not a standard operation for this type of vehicle, which would not then have had Manchester on its blind display?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
17/03/19 – 09:11
Yes Roger, It should be able to show ‘Manchester’ in the top half of the box (where it reads P.M.T.) and the second line would show X2 in Bold, with Knutsford over Altrincham (where it shows ‘Service’) There are photos on the web of the PD3’s that used to run this service and I have downloaded a copy of Fleetline 964 from the web in exactly the same place showing the full service blind that I refer to.The layover seemed to be quite lengthy and in busy times, the vehicle would have to vacate the stand and park on Lower Mosley Street itself, prior to returning to load up for the return journey. I spent many hours in my spotting days here but sadly I never got to ride on the service, principally as it was an out and back service TO Manchester. These Alexander bodied Fleetlines did not look out of place here as they were look alikes of North Westerns own examples and when PMT provided an NCME bodied Fleetline, of course that resembled LUT’s which used LMS on the Blackpool service, as all had a basic Red/Cream livery.
Mike Norris
18/03/19 – 07:08
North Western’s Fleetlines had single piece curved windscreens, single headlamps and different sidelights and the NWRCC colour scheme with a lighter red and more cream was much less drab. PMT’s colours on its double decker fleet didn’t exactly brighten up the Potteries’ landscape.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/03/19 – 06:15
The PMT vehicles often parked in Whitworth Street West. This road was close to LMS and was between the two railway lines that ran from the old Central Station and the line from Oxford Road. In my spotting days the low bridge Atlanteans were common fare.
Andrew Gosling
20/03/19 – 06:16
The ABC Coach and Bus Guide for the Winter period 1969/1970 contains a timetable for the Potteries to Manchester PMT service X2. Points served were Newcastle-under-Lyme, Hanley, Burslem, Tunstall, Kidsgrove, Lawton Arms, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Knutsford. Set downs were at Altrincham, Sale, Stretford and Manchester (Lower Mosley Street). (A full fare table was not shown. The timetable shows “dep” for departure times up to and including Lawton Arms and “arr” for arrival times at Altrincham and beyond. However, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Knutsford have neither “dep” or “arr” which may mean they could have been both pick-up and set down points). The northbound departure times were: 09:20 from Newcastle-under-Lyme (arriving Manchester 11:30) on Saturdays and Sundays 14:30 from Hanley (arriving Manchester 16:30) on Fridays and Saturdays The southbound departure times were: 12:00 from Manchester (arriving Hanley 14:00) on Saturdays 18:00 from Manchester (arriving Newcastle-under-Lyme 20:10) on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays PMT also ran a Hanley to Birmingham service X1 which had a similar format timetable.
David Slater
21/03/19 – 06:58
Bury also had some Alexander Fleetlines, 117 to 131, later 6317-31, but they had flat windscreens and were the full height version.
David Pomfret
26/03/19 – 06:53
David Slater’s description of the timetable is very helpful. Was it really the case that passengers were only allowed 30 minutes to spend in the city of Manchester. Barely time to purchase a cup of tea and an Eccles Cake!
Petras409
02/07/19 – 05:59
L1001. 5001 VT was allocated to Newcastle Garage and service X2 was operated by Hanley Garage it may have been the case that ‘Manchester’ was not on the destination blind. Out of interest the bus was destroyed by a fire at Newcastle Garage in 1975.
Leekensian
12/02/20 – 16:38
On a matter related to P.M.T double deck Fleetlines, I recall travelling on Burslem based Northern Counties bodied L967 and noted that the electronic gear shift had been replaced by a floor mounted air assisted unit. If my memory serves me right I cannot recall ever coming across this feature on any other P.M.T. Fleetline. There must have been a reason for this change – I just wonder what it was.
Leekensian
23/02/20 – 09:43
In the early days of semi automatic gearboxes – Fleetline, Atlantean etc – PMT had concerns over the reliability of the ep (electro-pneumatic) valves which actuated the air supply to the different gear ratios. As early as 1957, the prototype PD3 (PMT H7700) had a direct air change from a floor mounted pedestal. On the early Fleetline in particular where the ep valve was mounted on the gearbox bell housing this was vulnerable to serious damage in the (not infrequent) failure of the trailing link coupling between the engine and transmission. This was moved under the lower deck rear seat on later variants of the Fleetline. Just how suspicious PMT were of electro-pneumatic control was evidenced by the removal and blanking off of the neutral warning light on the gearswitch in the cab on the AtlanteansWWG8. I was not aware of this happening with other Operators. Another thought is that the production Roadliners 1965 onwards all had direct air operation from a floor mounted column – the prototype (PMT SN1000 had an ep type gear change). Was the modification on L967 a precursor to the Roadliners? Finally, PMT took 21 single deck Fleetlines in 1970 which had the latest Westinghouse miniaturised direct air gear shift mounted on the steering column. These gave a lot of early trouble where oil in the air pipes caused delay in releasing a gear and effectively had the bus trying to drive in 2 gears for a brief but disconcerting period. Daimler solved this by fitting quick release valves at the gearbox end of each gear air pipe.
Ian Wild
23/02/20 – 16:33
Thanks for your input on Fleetline gear controls. I was aware of the Leyland Pedestal mounted EP’s as Bolton had them on PD2’s and PD3’s. But I am still puzzled about any air change device on Daimlers (there is thread open on the other webpage) I fully understand your comments about the coupling between the 6LX and the Gearbox on Fleetlines, having broken one myself, inadvertently. I was driving LUT Fleetline 184 on service 14 towards New Bury along Bolton Road in Farnworth, a fairly wide road. I was accelerating from a stop and while in third gear needed to pull out to pass a parked van. Indicating this manoeuvre, I became aware of a fairly fast car overtaking me, so came off the accelerator, but then seeing the car flash me to pull out, I re-applied my foot onto the pedal – Bang ! Disaster ! – bits of the coupling came through the bonnet housing, and more were embedded in the engine housing behind the rear seat. I received a caution for poor driving but that was later rescinded when the T&GWU represented me at a disciplinary hearing as the fault became more widely known about. Yes, the later FEGR Fleetlines had a small lever in a mini pneumocyclic style gear change that was mounted on the cab offside (not true Fleetlines though). So still learning about Fleetlines all these years later, but still believe that electric control was better than air, for the reasons you have stated.
Mike Norris
25/02/20 – 05:49
In reply to Ian, the conversion could have been a precursor to the Roadliners but given that L967 was a 1963 delivery would the Engineering Department at PMT have made the conversion to such a new bus?
Potteries Motor Traction 1956 Daimler CVG6 Northern Counties L31/28RD
The above vehicle is one of a 30 strong batch delivered in 1956 – half with Metro Cammell H61RD bodies, the other half as shown. These were delivered with Gardner 5LW engines and Twyflex Centrifugal Clutches (rather than the more usual fluid flywheels). Both features I suspect were down to the BET Group’s parsimony in relation to fuel consumption. The 5LW was never a match for the hilly Potteries area in these buses. Over the years, more than half were fitted with 6LW engines and one, H6656, even acquired a fluid flywheel as well. They were colloquially known as ‘Jumpers’ referring to their tendency to lurch when pulling away on an uphill gradient, something more common with the 5LW versions. Only three of the lowbridge variety kept 5LWs to the bitter end, L6664, L6666 and L6673. The photo was taken at Sandbach in May 1969 and shows Burslem (locally pronounced “Boslum”) Depots L6676 on a Market Day extra from Hanley. Sandbach market was a popular attraction in the area in those days.
Apparently the Twiflex centrifugal clutch is still in production. To have lasted at least 54 years it must now be a judder-free product, though I know these things often depend on the installation. Fluid flywheels are reckoned to be only 96-97.5% efficient even at high revs/low load (where the engine itself isn’t particularly efficient) so I guess that allowing also for time spent in gear at traffic lights, with the engine on “heavy” idle churning the fluid round, the fuel consumption would be about 8% greater than that achieved with a clutch, whether plain or centrifugal. Two question, therefore: 1) Has anyone any comparative consumption figures? 2) Have any Twiflex-equipped buses survived?
Ian Thompson
25/01/13 – 18:10
There can’t have been many 27ft long lowbridge double deckers built with a top deck capacity of 31. It must have been achieved by an additional 4 seater row – I travelled on these quite frequently on the 46 to Blurton Estates but I don’t recall any particular problem with passing other seated passengers when alighting.
Ian Wild
26/01/13 – 06:38
Here’s a photo of a Twiflex Centrifugal Clutch, looking much like the shoe part of a drum brake, certainly simpler than a fluid flywheel. See //tinyurl.com
Chris Hebbron
27/01/13 – 07:55
That’s pretty much as I recall the Twiflex clutch except that the modern version seems to be hydraulically actuated (pipe to each segment). My recollection is that the shoe assemblies were on metalastic mounts which dampened the centrifugal force as the assembly was accelerated. It’s a long time ago-I may not have this quite right. interesting to see the design is now of Ukranian manufacture! I don’t recall having to replace one of these clutches whereas the fluid flywheel glands in Atlantean, Fleetline and Roadliner were commonplace failures.
Ian Wild
27/01/13 – 12:17
And to what vehicles do you recall these clutches being fitted, Ian?
Chris Hebbron
28/01/13 – 17:35
Chris-all 30 of the PMT Daimler CVG5s of 1956 were delivered with Twiflex clutches in place of fluid flywheels. I’m sure I’ve read somewhere (maybe elsewhere on this site?) that Walsall Corporation also tried them in the mid 50s.
Ian Wild
22/07/14 – 06:48
Walsall Corporation took delivery of 15 Daimler CVG6 buses with twiflex system transmission in 1956 and they were nicknamed “jumping jacks”. Here’s a newspaper report from 1974 referring to these buses: www.flickr.com/photos/walsall1955/
Walsall1955
09/12/15 – 06:09
At Stoke Depot we did meal break duties on these on the 46 Blurton run. These ‘Jumping Jacks’ were hated to a man.
Potteries Motor Traction 1956 Beadle Rochester Beadle C41F
Taken in the summer of either 1963 or ’64 this photo of Potteries fleet number C7717 registration 717 AEH which was a Beadle Rochester C41F integral coach delivered in 1956, it is seen here about to enter Southdown’s Royal Parade garage where most tour coaches were parked and heavy repairs were carried out at that time, the Rochester was an unusual choice for extended tours probably due in some measure to it’s raucous 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine although if the revs were kept up it gave a creditable performance, for it’s day, but more revs meant more noise. Southdown had 20 similar coaches delivered in 1957 No’s 6-25 with registrations TCD 6-15 and TUF 16-25 which were used mainly on express services.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
12/10/14 – 08:53
A beautiful example of a Fanfare clone by Beadle. Shame about the raucous underpinnings.
David Oldfield
12/10/14 – 09:28
Fanfare clone was my first thought. Those engines were awful. There was a company called Trumix near Reddish, Stockport with a fleet of Commer mobile concrete mixers which regularly deafened the neighbourhood.
Phil Blinkhorn
12/10/14 – 09:29
A delightful looking coach indeed, but with integral construction I wonder what the longevity of such vehicles was. The specification “chassisless” always fills me with horror at the memory of the Yorkshire Woollen District Leyland Olympics of the 1950s – these seemingly modern buses showed signs of disintegration when almost new on the admittedly very rough minor roads of the 36 route from Sovereign Street Leeds to Elland. Since then of course there have been commendable strides in the construction method – a certain Routemaster comes immediately of course to mind along with many other very satisfactory designs.
Chris Youhill
13/10/14 – 07:41
London Transport’s tram/trolleybus division, led by an essentially LCC tram team, were unusually adventurous in ordering chassisless trolleybuses from about 1936, yet the bus division continued the traditional way until the advent of the Routemaster. The majority of the pre-war trolleybuses led a full life, too.
Chris Hebbron
13/10/14 – 07:42
Well, I never had first hand experience of these beasts, Chris, but I never heard of any structural problems. They were, literally, Fanfare clones, Phil. In its last ten years (as “Weymann Story Part 2” explains) there were lots of happenings which added up to the eventually death of a proud and distinguished coach-builder (Weymann). One was when the directors forced the removal of a popular and competent manager, Jack Davies, in 1955. [This was just after the introduction of the Fanfare coach.] Jack Davies was snapped up by another well regarded coach-builder, Beadle, who almost immediately brought the Rochester onto the market. [To be fair to Beadle if you “remove” the Fanfare front, the rest of the coach still bears a strong family resemblance to existing Beadle coaches!] As for the weakness of integrals. Chris is, as ever, correct in his assertions. AEC (Monocoach) and Bristol (LS) had the same problems as Leyland (Olympic/Olympian). Beadle however also had extensive experience building their post war integral vehicles using pre-war parts. Again I never heard anything particularly bad about these vehicles – and they were hardly mainstream, mass-produced vehicles.
David Oldfield
13/10/14 – 07:43
These were sold shortly before I joined PMT in September 1968 after 12 years service so they must have been reasonably successful. More than can be said for the Roadliners that replaced them! We had the dubious distinction of changing the engines (due to failure) in all six Roadliners at various times at East Kent, Maidstone and District and Southdown Depots whilst they were on extended tours.
Ian Wild
13/10/14 – 17:25
Beadle were certainly an innovative concern. Can someone explain the reason for and date of their demise?
Chris Hebbron
14/10/14 – 06:31
Beadle gave up building buses in 1958. The last were the PD2s for Southdown, built on Park Royal frames. They probably gave up because the golden years were over and supply far outweighed demand. They were a family firm with other irons in the fire – not least a Rootes car franchise. Eventually this became a VW franchise and they remain one of the most prominent VW dealers in the south.
A look at their web-site shows a big set up with, in addition, franchises for Kia, Land Rover, Nissan, Skoda and Toyota.
David Oldfield
14/10/14 – 06:33
There was certainly nothing wrong with Beadle bodywork, as it was widely used in many quarters, and not just the south east. They also built up quite a reputation with those chassisless rebuilds using Leyland Tiger/Titan or AEC Regent/Regal chassis. I always felt these looked stylish. Southdown used Beadle for a significant quantity of new builds, rebuilds and re-bodying from approx 1947 to 1957. These included rebodying 37 Leyland TD3,4,5; New bodies on 23 Leyland PS1’s (half-cab), and later rebuilding these and 40 Duple-bodied PS1’s to full front; Rebuilding 50 Leyland TS7/TS8’s into chassisless coaches (20 at 30 feet and 30 at 26 feet length); New bodies on 12 Leyland PD2/12 d/d’s (Park Royal supplied the frames); A magnificent total of 130 coach bodies on Leyland Tiger Cub chassis (I remember these most as being on the regular Portsmouth/London service, but they fulfilled many duties); and finally 25 Beadle-Commer TS3 coaches of the Rochester style. They look slightly different to the PMT one above due to having a central entrance. That’s a total of 190 new bodies, 37 rebodying older stock, and 113 rebuilds of various means – grand total of 340. I think they also did some rebuilding of Leyland TD3//4/5s which weren’t given a total re-body post-war. I don’t recall the details of Beadles giving up coach or bus building, but they seem to have produced satisfactory work for all their customers.
Michael Hampton
14/10/14 – 06:34
John Clayton Beadle established a horse drawn carriage construction business in Lowfield Street, Dartford in 1893, and, in 1900, built a new factory in Spital Street, which was extended in 1910 to include a car sales showroom. The firm expanded during the motor age into passenger and haulage vehicle bodywork, and general engineering. During WW2 it was a subcontractor to Shorts of Rochester, supplying parts for Sunderland flying boats. Beadle continued to make bus/coach/general bodies and integral vehicles up to 1957, by which time the declining demand for such products resulted in the firm concentrating on its private car sales activities. These continue to the present day from showrooms in Princes Street, Dartford, but the firm also has outlets in other towns in Kent and south London. The 1910 construction and car showroom premises in Dartford of J. C. Beadle are now, ignominiously, a Wetherspoon pub called the “Flying Boat”, but the workshops to the rear were demolished many years ago. A gallery of Beadle vehicles may be found here:- www.flickr.com/groups/1890258@N22/ Strictly speaking, the Routemaster was a semi chassisless design, employing front and rear subframes to carry the engine, wheels/axles, suspension and transmission components. The self supporting bodywork provided the structural integrity for the vehicle as a whole. It has been suggested that one reason for the abandonment of the FRM was the difficulty of introducing a centre exit without seriously weakening the structure, though redesign could doubtlessly have resolved the problem. (The other reason was that Stokes was firmly against the FRM, and Leyland had the integral Titan to sell.) One fully successful integral vehicle was the Bristol LS which ran to a production total of 1409.
Roger Cox
14/10/14 – 10:59
I too can remember this Rootes engine in various vehicles- sounding like a monster version of a mad moped. Thanks for the potted history, Roger. Beadle seemed to be jobbing coachbuilders, seeing a niche for modern-looking but cheap (?) coaches for firms perhaps wanting to replace half-cabs. If we are around 1956, as seems the case, the Commer engine could also provide a response to the massive post-Suez fuel price inflation. Eventually, sixties “affluence” and the multi-nationals with their service networks must have squeezed them out.
Joe
15/10/14 – 07:22
…..and of course the Rootes franchise also explains to Commer/Rootes running gear!
David Oldfield
15/10/14 – 07:23
Thx, folks, for the potted history of Beadles. At least they’ve survived in some form. As for their Dartford showroom, to their credit at least Wetherspoon’s have a history of preserving old buildings which otherwise would have decayed away and/or been demolished.
Chris Hebbron
29/10/14 – 07:10
At my time at Beadles they also built Commer vans, a number of Commer trucks built for the G P O MOBILE workshops for the erection of telegraph poles,and for a short while Humber Hawk estate cars. My jobs were to fit wheel arches, floor trap doors for access to the engine, stair treads. also about 12 double decker buses cant remember if they were for Southdown or Maidstone & District.
Potteries Motor Traction 1957 AEC Reliance 470 Weymann B44F
This is one of many AEC Reliance 470 with standard BET style Weymann bodies (B44F) operated by PMT. This particular example dates from 1957 denoted by the 7 prefix to the fleet number. Allocated to Milton Depot at the time, it has come to grief sliding into a ditch adjacent to some road works whilst on an inward journey on the 43 from the village of Stanley to Hanley – which is the main town of the Stoke on Trent conurbation. Milton Depot had an allocation of about 20 buses, mainly single decks for services such as the one shown plus three lowbridge Atlanteans and I think three MCW highbridge Leyland PD3/4 for the Hanley to Abbey Hulton services. Inside the depot was a survivor – engineless AEC Regal ex fleet number S315 KEH 608 which was in use as the staff canteen. It later went to Hollis of Queensferry for preservation – wonder what happened to it? Going back to SN7693, I remember a call we took concerning a bus on fire somewhere out in the Staffordshire countryside. It turned out to be SN7680 of the same batch but by the time we reached it in a narrow country lane all that remained was a chassis – and some burnt grass banks either side of the road.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
These were the last batch of this type of body they had stick operated doors, Newcastle garage finished up with SN7688 which I would drive often as I thought it was a much better bus than the new Reliances we had with Alexander bodies, it had a good exhaust on it too.
Michael Crofts
Strange you should mention stick operated doors because Trent’s Tiger Cubs of the 1950’s had them. I remember thinking they had two gear sticks! The one to the right of the driver was forward when the doors were closed and then pulled back (a good pull was required!) and this pulled a flexible wire through a tube to open the doors, which were a mixture of jack-knife and two-piece. I often wondered if many fleets specified this apparatus. It fell out of favour by the end of the 50’s when something more sophisticated was felt necessary!
Chris Barker
Sheffield Transport amassed quite a fleet of Leyland Leopard Coaches between 1959 and 1961 with Weymann Fanfare, ECW and Burlingham bodywork. I did not have much cause to travel on them but I do remember that some, at least, (including the Weymann?) had this stick operation to their doors. These were full coaches with proper, heavy, coach doors – in the days when no coach had air assisted doors.
David Oldfield
My recollection is that earlier PMT Weymann bodied Reliances SN5573-5612 had electrically operated doors. I think lever operated doors commenced with SN6627-6646 and continued right through single deck deliveries including the 34 Albion Aberdonians until the ‘Jubilee’ batch SL801-810 when power operation recommenced. We avoided OMO conversions on lever door vehicles for as long as possible and of course the Aberdonians were never modified for OMO. David mentions the lever operated doors on the Sheffield Leopards and I can recall a trip out to Bakewell on one of the B fleet Weymann Fanfare vehicles when fairly new (probably early 1960) where a friend and I sat on the front nearside seat and assisted with operating the door by hand as the driver was having difficulty with the lever operation from the cab!! The Fanfare vehicles were never modified to power operation whereas the Burlingham and ECW batches were later converted for OMO which included power operated doors.
Ian Wild
All the AEH reg batch AECs had the stick doors along with all the Albions.
Michael Crofts
With the delivery of 25 Alexander bodied Reliances in 1961, this brought a total to 150 of the 30 foot Reliances at PMT, most having Weymann bodies apart from another 10 Willowbrook bodied ones.
Michael Crofts
10/12/11 – 14:58
There were also a few Albion versions with this body operating Chell to Longton at this time. All three, Leyland, AEC and Albion had their own distinctive engine sound. Anyone know who made the engines for the Albion?
Mr Anon
11/12/11 – 06:57
The Albions would have been Aberdonians – light-weight Leyland Tiger Cubs. The lightweight was in axle and chassis construction. They both shared the same Leyland Comet engine (0.350 version). Albions always had Albion gearboxes. [At different times, the Tiger Cub could have either a Leyland or an Albion box.]
David Oldfield
11/12/11 – 06:59
The Albion Aberdonian was a lighter weight version of the already lightweight Leyland Tiger Cub. It was powered by the Leyland O.350 engine of 5.76 litres giving 94 bhp, and was coupled to the Albion five speed constant mesh gearbox. It proved to be something of a frail beast, and most of the operators that tried it didn’t come back for more. Production ceased around 1960.
Roger Cox
11/12/11 – 11:20
The Albion Aberdonian had the same Leyland engine as the Leyland Tiger Cub, but strangely no Tiger Cub growl.
Peter Williamson
11/12/11 – 16:11
I always preferred the Aberdonian to the Tiger Cub, partly because I was brought with them. North Western’s batch of six spent most of their lives at Oldham depot and were the mainstay of the Saddleworth local services, running past my front door every half hour. I always thought they were quieter than the Tiger Cub and in retrospect I put that down to the Tiger Cub’s fan, although I don’t know if I’m correct in this. The Albions had, shall we say, a distinctive vibration when idling. The only Aberdonian in preservation to my knowledge is the East Yorkshire one and that made the same sounds despite having a different body. It’s a bus I haven’t heard of for many years – does anyone know of its current status? There are a few pictures of North Western’s Albions in my Saddleworth Buses gallery at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/ where they will be found in the 156, 157 and 158 collections. (This gallery is still developing but the collections relevant to these buses have been done.)
David Beilby
13/12/11 – 08:58
I too had a soft spot for the Aberdonian, despite my only first-hand experience of them being the Manchester ones with Seddon bodies of almost third-world standard. I always feel that the model had a rough deal being marketed as an alternative to the Tiger Cub, as an urban bus or express coach, when it would have been much happier doing the sort of jobs that Bedfords did – pottering around villages on market days or providing day trips to the seaside – but giving the passengers a more refined experience than a Bedford could. As far as I know, Plaxton-bodied Aberdonian coach XUP 692 is still with us, but it now very audibly boasts a Leyland 401 engine, and by all accounts goes like a rocket. I wish one of the Charlie’s Cars Harringtons had survived.
Peter Williamson
13/12/11 – 11:21
There’s an idea for another thread on the web-site – re-engining with similar, but different and larger, engines. I am already aware of AV760 powered RTs and RMs!
David Oldfield
15/12/11 – 06:52
When I drove for Stanley Gath of Dewsbury he had an ex O.K Motor Services Roe bodied AEC Reliance RUP 768 that had a rod operated entrance door. The bus was always called Rupert for obvious reasons.
Philip Carlton
26/04/14 – 07:24
I used to go to work on the Albions from Chell to Hanley and the gearbox seemed to be arranged from right to left, very different from the Leyland and AEC. Can anyone verify this?
Clive Reynolds
27/04/14 – 08:06
Clive, the gear selector gate on the PMT Albions was exactly the same as any other bus in the fleet. They had a five speed Albion constant mesh unit fitted. The linkage was very sloppy giving the effect to the driver of stirring a very thick pudding when trying to locate each gear! The Tiger Cubs that were acquired from Stratford Blue in 1971 had exactly the same gearbox but with a Leyland designed selector arrangement. The gear change on these was much more positive (and heavy!) but once you acquired the knack, I always thought a pleasant bus to drive. Mind you, I didn’t have to operate them in service on one man services.
Ian Wild
18/03/20 – 06:53
With regards to the electric operated doors, SN5573 to SN5612 plus SN6627 to SN6646 were so fitted.
