Potteries Motor Traction 1953 Guy Arab IV Weymann H32/26R
These vehicles were ordered by Northern General and diverted to PMT. The destination blind boxes were quickly converted to PMT spec. A very poor bus in performance and ride quality having a Gardener 5cyl engine. Best part about them was light steering and in the summer you could drive with the cab door open. Although reliable they never strayed far from the depot. I managed to do 42 mph once in one.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
09/12/13 – 09:26
These had all gone by the time I was at PMT. Being highbridge I would imagine they were allocated to Newcastle Depot. I well remember the poor performance of the 1956 Daimler CVG5s but those later fitted with a 6LW were a much better bus.
Ian Wild
09/12/13 – 14:40
I think the Orion looks better on a traditional-radiator Guy Arab IV than on any other chassis. Michael: when you spoke of poor ride quality, was that just the vibration from the 5LW, or did they give a choppy ride as well? I’m curious because Aldershot & District had Orion bodies on one batch of their Dennis K4s and found that the spring settings that suited the heavier East Lancs batch very well had to be modified for the Orions. Good to know that you found the steering light. I’ve read elsewhere that some drivers found Arab IV steering heavy, which in view of the excellence of Guy design at that time surprised me. A maintenance issue? Or was the light steering of this Potteries batch attributable to the lightness of the 5LW+Orion combination? 42 mph sounds pretty spectacular, by the way. I wonder whether these machines had a high final-drive ratio, which would yield wonderful fuel consumption on long, flat runs, but would certainly contribute to the impression of sluggishness on start-stop work.
Ian Thompson
09/12/13 – 17:32
Ian, I’ve just seen the photo and your comment about how the Orion looks and couldn’t agree more. I remember seeing these in the Newcastle areas (both Tyneside and the Potteries) as a boy and they always looked impressive. Somehow the solid colour scheme helps.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/12/13 – 17:55
Just a thought: I have read elsewhere that differences in steering characteristics between buses of the same type with different operators were sometimes caused by the fitting of different tyres.
Peter Williamson
10/12/13 – 06:44
Peter, different tyres certainly would make some difference.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/12/13 – 06:44
At PMT a white steering wheel denoted a highbridge bus. Did the NGT buses of this type have normal black steering wheels?
Ian Wild
10/12/13 – 06:45
The harsh ride was down to the suspension. At the time I think we were running on Firestone tyres at Newcastle Depot.
Michael Crofts
10/12/13 – 15:18
Does anyone know the location in this picture? I think the destination blind reads Newcastle via Garner Street.
Chris Barker
10/12/13 – 15:21
The means of indicating height or width to drivers (and bus wash operators) is a subject in itself. Sheffield and Chesterfield buses carried a letter W on the dash to indicate 8 feet width, but for whose benefit? Preserved Chesterfield 225 has a yellow steering wheel, which I was told indicated highbridge. Some Southend vehicles carried a red one – was this to indicate height or width? Bristol Tramways/Omnibus fitted white steering wheels to their 8-foot wide buses to warn drivers not to take one over a narrow bridge across the harbour. ECOC and several other Tilling Group companies did the same but it cannot have been general Group policy as Thames Valley KSWs had a black one.
Geoff Kerr
10/12/13 – 15:21
I disagree, Michael, in my opinion the harsh ride was due to the poor construction and extreme lightness of the early Orion bodies. The second batch we had at Percy Main, FT 9003/7 were an improvement on the first ones, FT 7893/6, however, the 1956 Park Royal bodied Arab IV was a superb vehicle in every sense bar one, NGT still specified the 5LW rather than opting for the 6LW. Having said that, they could scale the North face of the Eiger if asked to do so. As for speed, I think they must have had a high ratio diff, as they could get up to around the fifty mark. White steering wheels? The only ones I can remember at Percy Main were on the Daimler Fleetlines.
Ronnie Hoye
11/12/13 – 07:04
Here is a picture of the Guy H542 when brand new
and also a picture of same having had a bit of a hard life. (I do not own either picture)
Michael Crofts
11/12/13 – 08:09
Michael’s second photo reminds me that PMT’s vehicles in the mid to late 1960s often had a care worn, shabby look.
Phil Blinkhorn
12/12/13 – 07:13
The red Steering Wheels at Southend was to warn that the bus was a highbridge and therefore banned from services 7/8 which had very low railway bridges.
Philip Carlton
09/12/15 – 06:04
Chris Barker asked about location. This image is Trinity St in Hanley, opposite the then Odean Cinema. I regularly travelled this route in late 50s/ early 60s. Little did I know that a decade later I’d be driving for PMT, though from Stoke Depot.
Potteries Motor Traction 1964 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Alexander H41/31F
Photographed in June 1970 at Manchester, and mercifully still retaining its Potteries livery and logo, is Daimler CRG6LX Fleetline No. L 1001, 5001 VT, with Alexander H41/31F bodywork, the first of a batch of twenty five delivered in April 1964. Ten similar vehicles followed in 1965. L 1001 seems to be remarkably coy about showing its destination, reducing its passenger information down to a sticker in the windscreen. Was this route not a standard operation for this type of vehicle, which would not then have had Manchester on its blind display?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
17/03/19 – 09:11
Yes Roger, It should be able to show ‘Manchester’ in the top half of the box (where it reads P.M.T.) and the second line would show X2 in Bold, with Knutsford over Altrincham (where it shows ‘Service’) There are photos on the web of the PD3’s that used to run this service and I have downloaded a copy of Fleetline 964 from the web in exactly the same place showing the full service blind that I refer to.The layover seemed to be quite lengthy and in busy times, the vehicle would have to vacate the stand and park on Lower Mosley Street itself, prior to returning to load up for the return journey. I spent many hours in my spotting days here but sadly I never got to ride on the service, principally as it was an out and back service TO Manchester. These Alexander bodied Fleetlines did not look out of place here as they were look alikes of North Westerns own examples and when PMT provided an NCME bodied Fleetline, of course that resembled LUT’s which used LMS on the Blackpool service, as all had a basic Red/Cream livery.
Mike Norris
18/03/19 – 07:08
North Western’s Fleetlines had single piece curved windscreens, single headlamps and different sidelights and the NWRCC colour scheme with a lighter red and more cream was much less drab. PMT’s colours on its double decker fleet didn’t exactly brighten up the Potteries’ landscape.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/03/19 – 06:15
The PMT vehicles often parked in Whitworth Street West. This road was close to LMS and was between the two railway lines that ran from the old Central Station and the line from Oxford Road. In my spotting days the low bridge Atlanteans were common fare.
Andrew Gosling
20/03/19 – 06:16
The ABC Coach and Bus Guide for the Winter period 1969/1970 contains a timetable for the Potteries to Manchester PMT service X2. Points served were Newcastle-under-Lyme, Hanley, Burslem, Tunstall, Kidsgrove, Lawton Arms, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Knutsford. Set downs were at Altrincham, Sale, Stretford and Manchester (Lower Mosley Street). (A full fare table was not shown. The timetable shows “dep” for departure times up to and including Lawton Arms and “arr” for arrival times at Altrincham and beyond. However, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Knutsford have neither “dep” or “arr” which may mean they could have been both pick-up and set down points). The northbound departure times were: 09:20 from Newcastle-under-Lyme (arriving Manchester 11:30) on Saturdays and Sundays 14:30 from Hanley (arriving Manchester 16:30) on Fridays and Saturdays The southbound departure times were: 12:00 from Manchester (arriving Hanley 14:00) on Saturdays 18:00 from Manchester (arriving Newcastle-under-Lyme 20:10) on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays PMT also ran a Hanley to Birmingham service X1 which had a similar format timetable.
David Slater
21/03/19 – 06:58
Bury also had some Alexander Fleetlines, 117 to 131, later 6317-31, but they had flat windscreens and were the full height version.
David Pomfret
26/03/19 – 06:53
David Slater’s description of the timetable is very helpful. Was it really the case that passengers were only allowed 30 minutes to spend in the city of Manchester. Barely time to purchase a cup of tea and an Eccles Cake!
Petras409
02/07/19 – 05:59
L1001. 5001 VT was allocated to Newcastle Garage and service X2 was operated by Hanley Garage it may have been the case that ‘Manchester’ was not on the destination blind. Out of interest the bus was destroyed by a fire at Newcastle Garage in 1975.
Leekensian
12/02/20 – 16:38
On a matter related to P.M.T double deck Fleetlines, I recall travelling on Burslem based Northern Counties bodied L967 and noted that the electronic gear shift had been replaced by a floor mounted air assisted unit. If my memory serves me right I cannot recall ever coming across this feature on any other P.M.T. Fleetline. There must have been a reason for this change – I just wonder what it was.
Leekensian
23/02/20 – 09:43
In the early days of semi automatic gearboxes – Fleetline, Atlantean etc – PMT had concerns over the reliability of the ep (electro-pneumatic) valves which actuated the air supply to the different gear ratios. As early as 1957, the prototype PD3 (PMT H7700) had a direct air change from a floor mounted pedestal. On the early Fleetline in particular where the ep valve was mounted on the gearbox bell housing this was vulnerable to serious damage in the (not infrequent) failure of the trailing link coupling between the engine and transmission. This was moved under the lower deck rear seat on later variants of the Fleetline. Just how suspicious PMT were of electro-pneumatic control was evidenced by the removal and blanking off of the neutral warning light on the gearswitch in the cab on the AtlanteansWWG8. I was not aware of this happening with other Operators. Another thought is that the production Roadliners 1965 onwards all had direct air operation from a floor mounted column – the prototype (PMT SN1000 had an ep type gear change). Was the modification on L967 a precursor to the Roadliners? Finally, PMT took 21 single deck Fleetlines in 1970 which had the latest Westinghouse miniaturised direct air gear shift mounted on the steering column. These gave a lot of early trouble where oil in the air pipes caused delay in releasing a gear and effectively had the bus trying to drive in 2 gears for a brief but disconcerting period. Daimler solved this by fitting quick release valves at the gearbox end of each gear air pipe.
Ian Wild
23/02/20 – 16:33
Thanks for your input on Fleetline gear controls. I was aware of the Leyland Pedestal mounted EP’s as Bolton had them on PD2’s and PD3’s. But I am still puzzled about any air change device on Daimlers (there is thread open on the other webpage) I fully understand your comments about the coupling between the 6LX and the Gearbox on Fleetlines, having broken one myself, inadvertently. I was driving LUT Fleetline 184 on service 14 towards New Bury along Bolton Road in Farnworth, a fairly wide road. I was accelerating from a stop and while in third gear needed to pull out to pass a parked van. Indicating this manoeuvre, I became aware of a fairly fast car overtaking me, so came off the accelerator, but then seeing the car flash me to pull out, I re-applied my foot onto the pedal – Bang ! Disaster ! – bits of the coupling came through the bonnet housing, and more were embedded in the engine housing behind the rear seat. I received a caution for poor driving but that was later rescinded when the T&GWU represented me at a disciplinary hearing as the fault became more widely known about. Yes, the later FEGR Fleetlines had a small lever in a mini pneumocyclic style gear change that was mounted on the cab offside (not true Fleetlines though). So still learning about Fleetlines all these years later, but still believe that electric control was better than air, for the reasons you have stated.
Mike Norris
25/02/20 – 05:49
In reply to Ian, the conversion could have been a precursor to the Roadliners but given that L967 was a 1963 delivery would the Engineering Department at PMT have made the conversion to such a new bus?
Potteries Motor Traction 1956 Daimler CVG6 Northern Counties L31/28RD
The above vehicle is one of a 30 strong batch delivered in 1956 – half with Metro Cammell H61RD bodies, the other half as shown. These were delivered with Gardner 5LW engines and Twyflex Centrifugal Clutches (rather than the more usual fluid flywheels). Both features I suspect were down to the BET Group’s parsimony in relation to fuel consumption. The 5LW was never a match for the hilly Potteries area in these buses. Over the years, more than half were fitted with 6LW engines and one, H6656, even acquired a fluid flywheel as well. They were colloquially known as ‘Jumpers’ referring to their tendency to lurch when pulling away on an uphill gradient, something more common with the 5LW versions. Only three of the lowbridge variety kept 5LWs to the bitter end, L6664, L6666 and L6673. The photo was taken at Sandbach in May 1969 and shows Burslem (locally pronounced “Boslum”) Depots L6676 on a Market Day extra from Hanley. Sandbach market was a popular attraction in the area in those days.
Apparently the Twiflex centrifugal clutch is still in production. To have lasted at least 54 years it must now be a judder-free product, though I know these things often depend on the installation. Fluid flywheels are reckoned to be only 96-97.5% efficient even at high revs/low load (where the engine itself isn’t particularly efficient) so I guess that allowing also for time spent in gear at traffic lights, with the engine on “heavy” idle churning the fluid round, the fuel consumption would be about 8% greater than that achieved with a clutch, whether plain or centrifugal. Two question, therefore: 1) Has anyone any comparative consumption figures? 2) Have any Twiflex-equipped buses survived?
Ian Thompson
25/01/13 – 18:10
There can’t have been many 27ft long lowbridge double deckers built with a top deck capacity of 31. It must have been achieved by an additional 4 seater row – I travelled on these quite frequently on the 46 to Blurton Estates but I don’t recall any particular problem with passing other seated passengers when alighting.
Ian Wild
26/01/13 – 06:38
Here’s a photo of a Twiflex Centrifugal Clutch, looking much like the shoe part of a drum brake, certainly simpler than a fluid flywheel. See //tinyurl.com
Chris Hebbron
27/01/13 – 07:55
That’s pretty much as I recall the Twiflex clutch except that the modern version seems to be hydraulically actuated (pipe to each segment). My recollection is that the shoe assemblies were on metalastic mounts which dampened the centrifugal force as the assembly was accelerated. It’s a long time ago-I may not have this quite right. interesting to see the design is now of Ukranian manufacture! I don’t recall having to replace one of these clutches whereas the fluid flywheel glands in Atlantean, Fleetline and Roadliner were commonplace failures.
Ian Wild
27/01/13 – 12:17
And to what vehicles do you recall these clutches being fitted, Ian?
Chris Hebbron
28/01/13 – 17:35
Chris-all 30 of the PMT Daimler CVG5s of 1956 were delivered with Twiflex clutches in place of fluid flywheels. I’m sure I’ve read somewhere (maybe elsewhere on this site?) that Walsall Corporation also tried them in the mid 50s.
Ian Wild
22/07/14 – 06:48
Walsall Corporation took delivery of 15 Daimler CVG6 buses with twiflex system transmission in 1956 and they were nicknamed “jumping jacks”. Here’s a newspaper report from 1974 referring to these buses: www.flickr.com/photos/walsall1955/
Walsall1955
09/12/15 – 06:09
At Stoke Depot we did meal break duties on these on the 46 Blurton run. These ‘Jumping Jacks’ were hated to a man.
Potteries Motor Traction 1956 Beadle Rochester Beadle C41F
Taken in the summer of either 1963 or ’64 this photo of Potteries fleet number C7717 registration 717 AEH which was a Beadle Rochester C41F integral coach delivered in 1956, it is seen here about to enter Southdown’s Royal Parade garage where most tour coaches were parked and heavy repairs were carried out at that time, the Rochester was an unusual choice for extended tours probably due in some measure to it’s raucous 3 cylinder 2 stroke engine although if the revs were kept up it gave a creditable performance, for it’s day, but more revs meant more noise. Southdown had 20 similar coaches delivered in 1957 No’s 6-25 with registrations TCD 6-15 and TUF 16-25 which were used mainly on express services.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
12/10/14 – 08:53
A beautiful example of a Fanfare clone by Beadle. Shame about the raucous underpinnings.
David Oldfield
12/10/14 – 09:28
Fanfare clone was my first thought. Those engines were awful. There was a company called Trumix near Reddish, Stockport with a fleet of Commer mobile concrete mixers which regularly deafened the neighbourhood.
Phil Blinkhorn
12/10/14 – 09:29
A delightful looking coach indeed, but with integral construction I wonder what the longevity of such vehicles was. The specification “chassisless” always fills me with horror at the memory of the Yorkshire Woollen District Leyland Olympics of the 1950s – these seemingly modern buses showed signs of disintegration when almost new on the admittedly very rough minor roads of the 36 route from Sovereign Street Leeds to Elland. Since then of course there have been commendable strides in the construction method – a certain Routemaster comes immediately of course to mind along with many other very satisfactory designs.
Chris Youhill
13/10/14 – 07:41
London Transport’s tram/trolleybus division, led by an essentially LCC tram team, were unusually adventurous in ordering chassisless trolleybuses from about 1936, yet the bus division continued the traditional way until the advent of the Routemaster. The majority of the pre-war trolleybuses led a full life, too.
Chris Hebbron
13/10/14 – 07:42
Well, I never had first hand experience of these beasts, Chris, but I never heard of any structural problems. They were, literally, Fanfare clones, Phil. In its last ten years (as “Weymann Story Part 2” explains) there were lots of happenings which added up to the eventually death of a proud and distinguished coach-builder (Weymann). One was when the directors forced the removal of a popular and competent manager, Jack Davies, in 1955. [This was just after the introduction of the Fanfare coach.] Jack Davies was snapped up by another well regarded coach-builder, Beadle, who almost immediately brought the Rochester onto the market. [To be fair to Beadle if you “remove” the Fanfare front, the rest of the coach still bears a strong family resemblance to existing Beadle coaches!] As for the weakness of integrals. Chris is, as ever, correct in his assertions. AEC (Monocoach) and Bristol (LS) had the same problems as Leyland (Olympic/Olympian). Beadle however also had extensive experience building their post war integral vehicles using pre-war parts. Again I never heard anything particularly bad about these vehicles – and they were hardly mainstream, mass-produced vehicles.
David Oldfield
13/10/14 – 07:43
These were sold shortly before I joined PMT in September 1968 after 12 years service so they must have been reasonably successful. More than can be said for the Roadliners that replaced them! We had the dubious distinction of changing the engines (due to failure) in all six Roadliners at various times at East Kent, Maidstone and District and Southdown Depots whilst they were on extended tours.
Ian Wild
13/10/14 – 17:25
Beadle were certainly an innovative concern. Can someone explain the reason for and date of their demise?
Chris Hebbron
14/10/14 – 06:31
Beadle gave up building buses in 1958. The last were the PD2s for Southdown, built on Park Royal frames. They probably gave up because the golden years were over and supply far outweighed demand. They were a family firm with other irons in the fire – not least a Rootes car franchise. Eventually this became a VW franchise and they remain one of the most prominent VW dealers in the south.
A look at their web-site shows a big set up with, in addition, franchises for Kia, Land Rover, Nissan, Skoda and Toyota.
David Oldfield
14/10/14 – 06:33
There was certainly nothing wrong with Beadle bodywork, as it was widely used in many quarters, and not just the south east. They also built up quite a reputation with those chassisless rebuilds using Leyland Tiger/Titan or AEC Regent/Regal chassis. I always felt these looked stylish. Southdown used Beadle for a significant quantity of new builds, rebuilds and re-bodying from approx 1947 to 1957. These included rebodying 37 Leyland TD3,4,5; New bodies on 23 Leyland PS1’s (half-cab), and later rebuilding these and 40 Duple-bodied PS1’s to full front; Rebuilding 50 Leyland TS7/TS8’s into chassisless coaches (20 at 30 feet and 30 at 26 feet length); New bodies on 12 Leyland PD2/12 d/d’s (Park Royal supplied the frames); A magnificent total of 130 coach bodies on Leyland Tiger Cub chassis (I remember these most as being on the regular Portsmouth/London service, but they fulfilled many duties); and finally 25 Beadle-Commer TS3 coaches of the Rochester style. They look slightly different to the PMT one above due to having a central entrance. That’s a total of 190 new bodies, 37 rebodying older stock, and 113 rebuilds of various means – grand total of 340. I think they also did some rebuilding of Leyland TD3//4/5s which weren’t given a total re-body post-war. I don’t recall the details of Beadles giving up coach or bus building, but they seem to have produced satisfactory work for all their customers.
Michael Hampton
14/10/14 – 06:34
John Clayton Beadle established a horse drawn carriage construction business in Lowfield Street, Dartford in 1893, and, in 1900, built a new factory in Spital Street, which was extended in 1910 to include a car sales showroom. The firm expanded during the motor age into passenger and haulage vehicle bodywork, and general engineering. During WW2 it was a subcontractor to Shorts of Rochester, supplying parts for Sunderland flying boats. Beadle continued to make bus/coach/general bodies and integral vehicles up to 1957, by which time the declining demand for such products resulted in the firm concentrating on its private car sales activities. These continue to the present day from showrooms in Princes Street, Dartford, but the firm also has outlets in other towns in Kent and south London. The 1910 construction and car showroom premises in Dartford of J. C. Beadle are now, ignominiously, a Wetherspoon pub called the “Flying Boat”, but the workshops to the rear were demolished many years ago. A gallery of Beadle vehicles may be found here:- www.flickr.com/groups/1890258@N22/ Strictly speaking, the Routemaster was a semi chassisless design, employing front and rear subframes to carry the engine, wheels/axles, suspension and transmission components. The self supporting bodywork provided the structural integrity for the vehicle as a whole. It has been suggested that one reason for the abandonment of the FRM was the difficulty of introducing a centre exit without seriously weakening the structure, though redesign could doubtlessly have resolved the problem. (The other reason was that Stokes was firmly against the FRM, and Leyland had the integral Titan to sell.) One fully successful integral vehicle was the Bristol LS which ran to a production total of 1409.
Roger Cox
14/10/14 – 10:59
I too can remember this Rootes engine in various vehicles- sounding like a monster version of a mad moped. Thanks for the potted history, Roger. Beadle seemed to be jobbing coachbuilders, seeing a niche for modern-looking but cheap (?) coaches for firms perhaps wanting to replace half-cabs. If we are around 1956, as seems the case, the Commer engine could also provide a response to the massive post-Suez fuel price inflation. Eventually, sixties “affluence” and the multi-nationals with their service networks must have squeezed them out.
Joe
15/10/14 – 07:22
…..and of course the Rootes franchise also explains to Commer/Rootes running gear!
David Oldfield
15/10/14 – 07:23
Thx, folks, for the potted history of Beadles. At least they’ve survived in some form. As for their Dartford showroom, to their credit at least Wetherspoon’s have a history of preserving old buildings which otherwise would have decayed away and/or been demolished.
Chris Hebbron
29/10/14 – 07:10
At my time at Beadles they also built Commer vans, a number of Commer trucks built for the G P O MOBILE workshops for the erection of telegraph poles,and for a short while Humber Hawk estate cars. My jobs were to fit wheel arches, floor trap doors for access to the engine, stair treads. also about 12 double decker buses cant remember if they were for Southdown or Maidstone & District.
Potteries Motor Traction 1957 AEC Reliance 470 Weymann B44F
This is one of many AEC Reliance 470 with standard BET style Weymann bodies (B44F) operated by PMT. This particular example dates from 1957 denoted by the 7 prefix to the fleet number. Allocated to Milton Depot at the time, it has come to grief sliding into a ditch adjacent to some road works whilst on an inward journey on the 43 from the village of Stanley to Hanley – which is the main town of the Stoke on Trent conurbation. Milton Depot had an allocation of about 20 buses, mainly single decks for services such as the one shown plus three lowbridge Atlanteans and I think three MCW highbridge Leyland PD3/4 for the Hanley to Abbey Hulton services. Inside the depot was a survivor – engineless AEC Regal ex fleet number S315 KEH 608 which was in use as the staff canteen. It later went to Hollis of Queensferry for preservation – wonder what happened to it? Going back to SN7693, I remember a call we took concerning a bus on fire somewhere out in the Staffordshire countryside. It turned out to be SN7680 of the same batch but by the time we reached it in a narrow country lane all that remained was a chassis – and some burnt grass banks either side of the road.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
These were the last batch of this type of body they had stick operated doors, Newcastle garage finished up with SN7688 which I would drive often as I thought it was a much better bus than the new Reliances we had with Alexander bodies, it had a good exhaust on it too.
Michael Crofts
Strange you should mention stick operated doors because Trent’s Tiger Cubs of the 1950’s had them. I remember thinking they had two gear sticks! The one to the right of the driver was forward when the doors were closed and then pulled back (a good pull was required!) and this pulled a flexible wire through a tube to open the doors, which were a mixture of jack-knife and two-piece. I often wondered if many fleets specified this apparatus. It fell out of favour by the end of the 50’s when something more sophisticated was felt necessary!
Chris Barker
Sheffield Transport amassed quite a fleet of Leyland Leopard Coaches between 1959 and 1961 with Weymann Fanfare, ECW and Burlingham bodywork. I did not have much cause to travel on them but I do remember that some, at least, (including the Weymann?) had this stick operation to their doors. These were full coaches with proper, heavy, coach doors – in the days when no coach had air assisted doors.
David Oldfield
My recollection is that earlier PMT Weymann bodied Reliances SN5573-5612 had electrically operated doors. I think lever operated doors commenced with SN6627-6646 and continued right through single deck deliveries including the 34 Albion Aberdonians until the ‘Jubilee’ batch SL801-810 when power operation recommenced. We avoided OMO conversions on lever door vehicles for as long as possible and of course the Aberdonians were never modified for OMO. David mentions the lever operated doors on the Sheffield Leopards and I can recall a trip out to Bakewell on one of the B fleet Weymann Fanfare vehicles when fairly new (probably early 1960) where a friend and I sat on the front nearside seat and assisted with operating the door by hand as the driver was having difficulty with the lever operation from the cab!! The Fanfare vehicles were never modified to power operation whereas the Burlingham and ECW batches were later converted for OMO which included power operated doors.
Ian Wild
All the AEH reg batch AECs had the stick doors along with all the Albions.
Michael Crofts
With the delivery of 25 Alexander bodied Reliances in 1961, this brought a total to 150 of the 30 foot Reliances at PMT, most having Weymann bodies apart from another 10 Willowbrook bodied ones.
Michael Crofts
10/12/11 – 14:58
There were also a few Albion versions with this body operating Chell to Longton at this time. All three, Leyland, AEC and Albion had their own distinctive engine sound. Anyone know who made the engines for the Albion?
Mr Anon
11/12/11 – 06:57
The Albions would have been Aberdonians – light-weight Leyland Tiger Cubs. The lightweight was in axle and chassis construction. They both shared the same Leyland Comet engine (0.350 version). Albions always had Albion gearboxes. [At different times, the Tiger Cub could have either a Leyland or an Albion box.]
David Oldfield
11/12/11 – 06:59
The Albion Aberdonian was a lighter weight version of the already lightweight Leyland Tiger Cub. It was powered by the Leyland O.350 engine of 5.76 litres giving 94 bhp, and was coupled to the Albion five speed constant mesh gearbox. It proved to be something of a frail beast, and most of the operators that tried it didn’t come back for more. Production ceased around 1960.
Roger Cox
11/12/11 – 11:20
The Albion Aberdonian had the same Leyland engine as the Leyland Tiger Cub, but strangely no Tiger Cub growl.
Peter Williamson
11/12/11 – 16:11
I always preferred the Aberdonian to the Tiger Cub, partly because I was brought with them. North Western’s batch of six spent most of their lives at Oldham depot and were the mainstay of the Saddleworth local services, running past my front door every half hour. I always thought they were quieter than the Tiger Cub and in retrospect I put that down to the Tiger Cub’s fan, although I don’t know if I’m correct in this. The Albions had, shall we say, a distinctive vibration when idling. The only Aberdonian in preservation to my knowledge is the East Yorkshire one and that made the same sounds despite having a different body. It’s a bus I haven’t heard of for many years – does anyone know of its current status? There are a few pictures of North Western’s Albions in my Saddleworth Buses gallery at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/ where they will be found in the 156, 157 and 158 collections. (This gallery is still developing but the collections relevant to these buses have been done.)
David Beilby
13/12/11 – 08:58
I too had a soft spot for the Aberdonian, despite my only first-hand experience of them being the Manchester ones with Seddon bodies of almost third-world standard. I always feel that the model had a rough deal being marketed as an alternative to the Tiger Cub, as an urban bus or express coach, when it would have been much happier doing the sort of jobs that Bedfords did – pottering around villages on market days or providing day trips to the seaside – but giving the passengers a more refined experience than a Bedford could. As far as I know, Plaxton-bodied Aberdonian coach XUP 692 is still with us, but it now very audibly boasts a Leyland 401 engine, and by all accounts goes like a rocket. I wish one of the Charlie’s Cars Harringtons had survived.
Peter Williamson
13/12/11 – 11:21
There’s an idea for another thread on the web-site – re-engining with similar, but different and larger, engines. I am already aware of AV760 powered RTs and RMs!
David Oldfield
15/12/11 – 06:52
When I drove for Stanley Gath of Dewsbury he had an ex O.K Motor Services Roe bodied AEC Reliance RUP 768 that had a rod operated entrance door. The bus was always called Rupert for obvious reasons.
Philip Carlton
26/04/14 – 07:24
I used to go to work on the Albions from Chell to Hanley and the gearbox seemed to be arranged from right to left, very different from the Leyland and AEC. Can anyone verify this?
Clive Reynolds
27/04/14 – 08:06
Clive, the gear selector gate on the PMT Albions was exactly the same as any other bus in the fleet. They had a five speed Albion constant mesh unit fitted. The linkage was very sloppy giving the effect to the driver of stirring a very thick pudding when trying to locate each gear! The Tiger Cubs that were acquired from Stratford Blue in 1971 had exactly the same gearbox but with a Leyland designed selector arrangement. The gear change on these was much more positive (and heavy!) but once you acquired the knack, I always thought a pleasant bus to drive. Mind you, I didn’t have to operate them in service on one man services.
Ian Wild
18/03/20 – 06:53
With regards to the electric operated doors, SN5573 to SN5612 plus SN6627 to SN6646 were so fitted.
Potteries Motor Traction 1961 AEC Reliance Alexander B45F
The Reliance in the snow above was being driven by myself on route 64 Newcastle under Lyme to Market Drayton on the A53 road just south of Loggerheads, traffic in front was getting stuck on a hill ahead of us called Hennel Brooke. The AEC’s were delivered in 1961 there was 25 of them all 45 seaterswith Alexander bodywork built to BET federation specification, they were all withdrawn in 1976. They were the first OMO buses to operate with PMT, and yes we did eventually reach our destination. They were a very pleasant bus to drive having a top speed of about 52 mph with a 5 speed gearbox powered by the AEC 470 engine. Bus number SN886 of this batch was “Tuned” to operate a service along the M6 motorway to Stafford from Newcastle under Lyme. It was not that much faster than the rest but it did have a good exhaust sound, just like the older Reliances with a crackling exhaust and a whistle when going downhill with your foot off the gas.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
21/02/11 – 06:28
Newcastle was the first depot to have OMO single deckers and SN882 was one of the original conversions for the highly rural Newcastle Area services. It looks to have a smaller PMT logo on the front panel dating the photo post 1968 but has not yet had the destination display altered to a final destination with triple route number below. SN882 was one of a batch of 25 which were the first Alexander bodies for PMT leading to further orders for the second and third batch of Fleetlines followed by batches of Y type dual purpose bodies on both 8U2R (coil spring) and 6U2R (leaf spring) Reliance 691s. The Reliance 470s like SN882 had continual cylinder head gasket problems which led to instant cold heaters and demisters due to air locking and also had reliability issues with the hydraulically operated clutch mechanisms. The Alexander bodied 470s always seemed a bit flimsy to me compared with the earlier Weymann bodied examples.
Potteries Motor Traction 1967 AEC Reliance 8U2R Alexander C49F
A firm favourite of mine was the A.E.C. Alexander Y type, what a difference these buses made to our Excursion and Express allocation. I worked at this time on the P.M.T. based at Newcastle Under Lyme depot none of these vehicles were based there at this time they were mostly at Hanley depot (Clough Street) there was a total of about 24 delivered between 1967/1971 the 1967 ones had low back seats and the later ones had high back seats though the low back seats were very comfortable. They were all good for 70MPH and were very comfortable to drive with a five speed semi auto box, some drivers complained about the bouncy ride (coil springs) but in my book they were superb. As far as I can recall they were fitted with the 691 Engine and the company prefix was S.L (semi luxury) as they got older they were dispersed among all the depots and we at Newcastle acquired 103/1092. Happy days.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
28/05/13 – 17:12
Never knew these 8U2Rs (coil sprung 6U2Rs) despite living on the Peak District/Sheffield border. I preferred the ZF version proliferating at SUT, but it would have been a (good) experience to sample one of these. [They would have been AH691s between 1968 and 1971, they might possibly have still been AH590s in 1967.]
David Oldfield
29/05/13 – 07:04
Yes David they were a mixture, the early ones had the 590 engine and the later ones had 691 engine. When you revved the coil spring buses stationary you could get them to rock, good engine torque. The later deliveries had leaf springs.
Michael Crofts
31/05/13 – 06:27
This has produced a mental block in the little grey cells! In 1967 my job took me from my home town of Sheffield to work in Newcastle-under-Lyme. I didn’t have a car then and used to make visits home, as I recall, on PMT from N-u-L to Buxton where I would change to a Sheffield JOC service 84 which would usually be either a Fanfare, Burlingham or ECW Leopard. My mental block is around the PMT vehicles completing this scenic marathon. I think it was sometimes an Alexander Y type but think that there was sometimes a Daimler. Perhaps a Potteries watcher can remember more?
Les Dickinson
04/06/13 – 06:52
All the PMT AEC /Alexander Y types had AH691 engines. The first two batches (1092-1096 and 1103-1109) were on 8U2R coil spring chassis. Of the final batch of 12, (161-173), the first three were 8U2R whilst the balance from 164 upwards were on conventional 6U2R leaf spring chassis. I am not aware whether any other Companies bought 8U2R, would seem a major design change for small orders from PMT. Maybe AEC had hopes of bigger sales? Maybe by 1971 they had deleted the 8U2R model from their lists? However by 1971, experience with the earlier 8U2Rs suggested that the savings in replacing leaf springs was more than outweighed by problems with panhard rod mountings (not dissimilar in this respect to the problems experienced with the Metalastik rubber sprung Roadliners.) PMT also had two small batches of AEC 8U2R/Duple Commander 1V coaches, 11-13 and 14/15. In response to Les, in 1967 the 49 Hanley to Buxton service would probably be operated then with almost new Daimler Roadliners.
Ian Wild
As a ps, what a dismal colour scheme that 1092 is in the photo. These looked so smart as delivered in the PMT dual purpose livery. Brings back memories of the dire days of NBC (and for that matter PTEs).
09/06/13 – 06:26
In answer to my own question, looking through Bus Lists on the Web, only 30 Reliance chassis are shown as 8Uxx (should actually be 33 as they list PMT 161-163 as 6U2R models which they certainly were not). PMT had 19, Barton are shown with 10 whilst South Wales Transport had two batches of 2 each. So, the coil sprung version accounted for only a tiny minority of the large number of Reliance chassis built.
Ian Wild
18/06/13 – 09:08
Here is a picture of AEC Alexander Y Type KVT 192E when brand new showing it in its original livery. It would be good to see both pictures together.
Michael Crofts
19/06/13 – 07:45
That’s much better and how I remember them. Fortunately I had moved on from PMT before the dreadful NBC Corporate livery was imposed. The last vehicles delivered in my time in the ‘real’ PMT livery were the three Bristol RE DPs 210-212. Do you have a photo of them? I never took one but I remember them being elegant looking buses.
Ian Wild
20/06/13 – 13:35
Sheffield had some of these. I think they were Alexander bodies. They had coach seats with large windows, & bus seats with more, smaller windows. Living on Scott Road, (De La Sall stories lads?) but working from Broomhill, I used to catch the 7.25 from Burngreave Cemetry to work, 1967 or later on the 8 & 9 Inner Circler route. Going up the steep hill of Crookesmoor Road (another) was the most remarkable sound. How it did not break windows I do not know (or probably it did). I think they had gear sticks similar to the Atlanteans (semi automatic)? They took over from the AEC Regent III Roes, & tinfront Roes. These took over from the Crossley (double deckers) which has just been posted on the home page. After that were the AEC Marshalls H reg 1970. I am sure these were still running into the early 80s when I lost touch with the area.
Andy Fisher
20/06/13 – 16:47
The Sheffield coaches were 1968 Leyland Leopard PSU3A/4R (not AEC) 3001 – 3004 (WWB101-104G) and followed by similar (1970) 55 – 60 (FWJ355-369J). The 1970 AECs were Swift 5P2R 50 -54 (DWB50-54H) with Park Royal bodies – which followed on from similar 1968 vehicles. The 1970 Swifts had rear axles and 5 speed gearboxes for interurban and rural working, the 1968 deliveries were 2P2R (4 speeders) split between single and dual door types. The former were 1019 – 1029 (TWE119-129F), the latter were 15 – 36 (TWE15-36F).
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
10/07/19 – 07:09
With regards to the RE DPs 210 to 212 I recall that at least one arrived at Stoke in the service bus livery- red with a cream band and window surrounds. It was hurriedly placed in the paint shop where the middle panels were painted cream.
Potteries Motor Traction 1964 AEC Reliance 2U3RA Duple C49F
Potteries Motor Traction took delivery of six of these fantastic vehicles in 1964 they had the AEC 590 engine and 6 speed ZF manual gearbox. Drivers and passengers loved them, 4989 VT won the 1964 Brighton coach rally. I have not driven a coach before or since as good as these splendid vehicles. The company got rid of these vehicles in 1976 the older drivers like myself still talk about them now, there was nothing like driving down the third lane of the M6 motorway at about 75MPH which at that time was legal. Oh happy days.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
11/08/13 – 08:31
Brings back happy memories of Sheffield United Tours and Cyril (C G) Littlewood with their ZF Reliances roaring in and out of Pond Street to and from the north of Scotland, the south of England and continental venues as far away as Switzerland, Italy and Yugoslavia. As Michael says, fantastic vehicles – to ride in and to drive,
David Oldfield
14/08/13 – 11:17
Back in 1965-67 I used to do a regular monthly trip through PMT land, usually starting off with a ride from Manchester to Leek on North Western’s X1 (operated by the previous year’s Y-types, quickly relegated from the X5 to London). After a visit to Berresfords in Cheddleton I’d carry on to Hanley to see what was new with the independents there and then return to Manchester on PMT’s afternoon X2 departure. On one occasion this was operated by this very machine which made a pleasant change – PMT were in the habit of throwing any old rubbish at this route with lowbridge Atlanteans quite common at busy times. You never realised how uncomfortable these were until you’d spent two hours on one!
Neville Mercer
31/10/13 – 07:16
I remember 4989 VT, as I sometimes travelled to School on it when it was operated by a firm from Bugbrooke Northamptonshire. They sold it in around 1975. I believe it is in that great Coach park in the sky now more’s the pity. The regular driver said it was good for 90 mph on the motorway. No Tachographs or Speed Limiters in them days!
Stemax1960
01/11/13 – 08:12
Overheating was a problem with these six coaches when driven for long periods in 6th gear such as on motorway work. Some had 6th gear blanked off which had the consequence of lowering the top speed but ensuring reasonable fan revolutions. Fleet number C991 had a tandem radiator fitted, from memory as an AEC initiative to overcome the problem. Whilst I can remember the fitment, I can’t recall the result! Too many years ago. I assume that SUT and other Operators had the same problem?
Ian Wild
01/11/13 – 13:51
I remember a journey from Great Yarmouth to Sheffield in August 1968. Part of the route was on the A1 around Newark, fast, even in those days. We were “going like stink” with our C reg, SUT, 2U3RA Reliance (with AH590) – 356-365 batch. Suddenly we were doing about 30mph – for quite some time. Later, when I questioned the driver, he said she was overheating so he slowed up to give her a chance to cool down. SUT put an experimental air scoop under the grille of B reg 349 – from 346-355 – but this was not entirely successful and was subsequently removed. As I have said before, the wet-liner AH590 – and its problems – lost AEC a lot of friends. Others like SUT and Yelloway persevered and the AH691 and AH760 repaid their persistence. Heavyweight ZF Reliances were thoroughbreds which were a delight to drive and to ride in. The AH590 let the side down.
Potteries Motor Traction 1955 AEC Reliance MU3RV Willowbrook B45F
Nine of these AEC Reliance MU3RV’s with Willowbrook B45F bodies had been ordered by City of Oxford Motor Services for delivery in 1955. Registered in Oxford as WJO 736-744, the last three were instead diverted to PMT which numbered them S5624-5626 and placed them in their Wells Motor Services Ltd. subsidiary fleet, painted in Wells’ green and cream livery. The Biddulph-based 20 vehicle Wells business had been acquired in 1953, and was absorbed into the main fleet in 1959, whereupon the trio of Reliances received standard PMT red and cream fleet livery. It is pictured here outside Biddulph depot on a dismal day in late 1971, probably not long before withdrawal.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
19/11/13 – 05:45
Ah, memories, memories. ‘PMT – NorWestern, Biddulph Depot’. Foreman Tommy Chell complaining regularly about the rubbish that Paddy Grimes, his opposite number at NWRCC Macclesfield Depot sent him! (Not that it prevented Tommy from having a drink with Paddy most Friday nights!) For NWRCC, Biddulph was an outstation of Macclesfield, PMT carried out the necessary maintenance on the North Western contingent. As for S5626, well very much a Biddulph machine. The trio had a sad appearance, rather high front waist with consequent shallow windscreens. One thing is certain, it wouldn’t be long before it suffered a head gasket failure!!!5626 was the last of the three to be withdrawn, in 1972 passing to Martin, (Weaverham), Dealer in December that year.
Here is a photo of S5626 in service in Biddulph on 8th March 1971, looking rather neglected. Note that the standard PMT blind display is too deep for the aperture.
Ian Wild
19/11/13 – 15:22
It seems to me to be unusual for vehicles intended for one operator to be diverted to another before entering service, and then keep their allotted registrations. My experience – admittedly limited – is generally that the booked registrations become void and are superseded by ones relevant to the new “home” territory. It is of course an entirely different story if a vehicle is passed from one operator to another after service, such as a Ribble PS2 going to Southport for further service. How wrong am I???
Pete Davies
22/11/13 – 08:01
In 1965 Bristol Omnibus received four MWs originally built for Eastern National. These were delivered to Bristol in ENOC livery with Essex registrations in the JHK-C series, before being reregistered in Bristol with BHW-C marks.
Geoff Kerr
22/11/13 – 10:02
Thanks, Geoff
Pete Davies
22/11/13 – 10:03
The vast geographical area covered by the United Automobile Services Empire contained literally dozens of registration options, but they had a policy that vehicles new to them were all registered in Darlington, and so had an HN index. On the other hand, Northern General vehicles usually had the mark of the area to which the vehicle was first allocated, so they could be either a County or local authority registration.
Ronnie Hoye
09/03/16 – 06:55
North Western’s Biddulph depot was a depot in its own right and was so from July 1936 until March 1972 when the Biddulph depot work, together with Macclesfield and Northwich depots passed to Crosville. North Western outstations were at Castleton (Derbyshire) and Warrington plus for a very short time Congleton.
John Dixon
10/03/16 – 05:02
With reference to the comments above regarding new vehicles diverted to different operators, I think it depends when the vehicle is first registered/taxed. In 1977, Trent exchanged VRs for Nationals with Northern General – the VRs had already been registered by Trent (UTO 830-7S) but had not entered service when they went to Northern General; the Nationals had not been registered by Northern General, so they were registered by Trent as VCH 473-80S. Another example is the G regd Willowbrook Atlanteans intended for Devon General – some at least were photographed at Willowbrook with Devon General fleet names, fleet numbers and Devon registration numbers in the OTT-G series; at the last minute they were diverted to Yorkshire Traction, who put them into service in Devon General livery, but with local Barnsley registrations in the RHE-G series.
Bob Gell
30/05/17 – 06:47
I remember these vehicles arriving at Well’s and that they had the name of a leasing company in Oxford painted in small letters on the lower body just behind the door.
Potteries Motor Traction 1958 AEC Reliance 470 Willowbrook C41F
PMT had five of these coaches plus one similar acquisition on a Leyland Tiger Cub chassis from the takeover of Dawsons, Ash Bank. They suffered as always with AH470 engines with cylinder head gasket and wet liner seal failures. This is why this photo was taken adjacent to Llandrindod Wells Railway Station on a summer evening in June 1971. A similar Reliance had taken a party of Scouts on a weeks expedition to Tenby and inevitably the engine had failed in South Wales. I was summoned at short notice to take a replacement vehicle arriving at South Wales Transport Ravenhill Depot shortly before midnight. I chose the scenic route rather than the M6/M5 as I didn’t fancy becoming another engine failure casualty at the side of the Motorway. During 1971 and 1972 three of these Reliances were modified for one man operation and repainted in bus livery. The conversion included jack knife doors the motor for which would only fit in the space occupied by the nearside front passenger seat hence reducing the capacity to 39. As the vehicles were 13/14 years old by this time one wonders if it was really worth the effort. I recall 762 which was allocated to Biddulph Depot put in some quite respectable mileages as an omo saloon.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
16/11/14 – 09:44
An odd design which seems to transition from the early 1950s at the front to the late 1950s at the rear.
Phil Blinkhorn
16/11/14 – 11:21
Northern General had a batch of very similar C37F Willowbrook Viking coaches on an AEC Reliance 2MU3RV chassis, so as I understand it, they would have had the larger AH590 engine. Delivered in 1959, they were JCN 445 to 454, numbered 1845 to 1854. About 1967, it was decided to convert them for use as OPO vehicles, but the changes were far more radical. I don’t know if the conversion was carried out ‘in-house’ or whether they went back to Willowbrook to be done, but the whole front end was chopped off, and a new service front grafted on, I believe they were also up-seated to 41. Here is an example of the end result, I believe they remained in service until around 1975
Ronnie Hoye
16/11/14 – 18:03
Were the gasket/liner problems eventually cured by AEC?
Chris Hebbron
17/11/14 – 06:47
In a word, Chris – No! AEC’s involvement with wet liners began in 1935 with the introduction of the ‘6.6’ A172 engine (actually of 6.75 litres) in the lightweight Regal II. This engine proved to be decidedly troublesome, and the wet liner problems were carried through into its postwar ranges developed from about 1953. In the end, AEC reverted to dry liners in the AV/AH 505/691/760 engines. By contrast, Dennis employed wet liners in its ‘Big 4’ petrol and O4/O6 diesels from the mid 1930s onwards, and all were generally free of the troubles that plagued the AEC efforts.
Roger Cox
17/11/14 – 06:47
2MU3RV was still the AH470, Ronnie – 2U3RA was the AH590. Both of these had wet liners and gasket head problems. The AH691 and AH760 were new dry liner engines which did not have the same problems. Sadly the reputation was tarnished and many did not return to AEC. Also, like the later Leyland Panther, others persevered and overcame the problems.
David Oldfield
17/11/14 – 09:51
Thx, Roger. It’s amazing, from what you say, that folk continued to buy AEC’s with these engines, if they were so troublesome, although I admit that post-war distress purchasing would retain undeserved loyalty to a large extent. Were LTE’s engines of this type? I’ve never heard of problems with those Incidentally, did AEC/Leyland ever offer ‘outside’ engine options at ordering stage, such as Gardner? I’ve never heard of any, but who knows? David O, strange that, following on with gasket/wet liner problems, which existed for decades, AEC cured Crossley’s engine breathing problem within months!
Chris Hebbron
17/11/14 – 11:37
The AV (vertical) engines never suffered to the same extent as the horizontal AH engines and substantially LTE had no problems with RMs (once the teething problems were ironed out) – including the AV590. Neither did Sheffield with its Regent Vs and Bridgemasters. [In passing, the AV version of the AH691 was actually a wet-liner and really an “out-boring” of the AV590.] It is surprising that they carried on so long before they eventually reverted to dry-liners – and as I said lost friends along the way. Those who stayed were rewarded by the AH691/760. AEC were not alone in having problems with putting an engine on its side. I am a “fan” of the O.600/O.680 – but this was not without its problems either – as Stephen Barber has alluded to in his Wallace Arnold Books. Conversely, there was enough faith in the later AEC engines to offer them, initially, as an option, in Series 2 REs and VRTs. The famous Werner Heubeck at Citybus who force BL to continue the RE for Northern Ireland was known to be very interested in an AH691 RE but BL back out at the last minute and cancelled the option – much to Heubeck’s anger. [Something similar is thought to have happened with the VRT – when someone showed interest, the option was withdrawn.] As for Gardners, there were the famous Rochdale D2RAG Regent Vs and the less famous Glasgow and Aberdeen D2RVG Regent Vs.
David Oldfield
17/11/14 – 16:50
Huddersfield JOC took delivery of 16 Regent’s and 37 Regal’s with 6LW engines between 1935 and 1939.
Eric Bawden
17/11/14 – 17:19
Forgot those, Eric. Crossley engines were another, and simpler, matter. AEC basically knew the problem – Crossley refused to pay royalties to Saurer and so mangle the design of the piston/cylinder head to make it different. AEC simply came up with a design which solved the problem without infringing the rights of Saurer. [I’m not an engineer, so I cannot elucidate.]
David Oldfield
18/11/14 – 06:23
As I have always understood it, the bored out 11.3 litre version of the AEC AV590 wet liner engine was the AV690, which was introduced at the same time in 1958. It was most commonly employed in commercial vehicle models such as the Mammoth Major V and in many export PSV’s, but was optional in the 2D version of the Regent V, and in horizontal AH690 form in the 2U and 4U larger Reliances, though it was not differentiated in the model designation. The AV/AH691 was the 11.3 litre dry liner engine which was announced in late 1964 at the same time as its smaller equivalent the AV/AH505. The AV691 was then offered as an option in the Regent V and Renown, models, which were then designated Regent 691 (prefixed 3D) and Renown 691 (prefixed 4B) though none of the latter were built.
John Stringer
18/11/14 – 06:23
David, the wet liner 11.3 litre was the AV/AH 690. The 691 was a dry liner in vertical and horizontal formats. Even the switch to dry liners did not resolve AEC’s engine reputation. The AV/AH 505 in particular soon revealed weaknesses in service. A cover plate was fitted on the top of the block under the cylinder head, and this plate was held in place by a number of set screws. The inevitable expansion and contraction of this component in service caused the screws to fail, leaving a hole that allowed coolant to escape. This, if not spotted and remedied, could result in a seized engine. The design defects were progressively eliminated, but AEC’s reputation as an engine builder was not enhanced.
Roger Cox
18/11/14 – 06:24
Ronnie – that’s a proper bus conversion done by Northern, however as they were done in 1967 they would operate for quite a few years to get the money back. We only started conversions in 1971 and as I said, perhaps a bit late in the day – but don’t forget PMT had the largest fleet of Roadliners in the world and anything had to be tried to mitigate the chronic unreliability.
Ian Wild
18/11/14 – 06:25
Chris, for a short period in 1956/7 the AEC Regent V was offered with the option of a Gardner 5LW or 6LW engine. There were only three takers; Glasgow and Dundee Corporations bought examples with vacuum brakes and spring operated preselector gearboxes (model D2RV6G,) and Rochdale Corporation had examples with air brakes and air operated preselector or semi-automatic gearboxes, model D2RA6G. The Rochdale examples were described in my article on this site.
Don McKeown
18/11/14 – 10:19
The prototype Crossley HOE7 engine design came about when the firm’s engine designer, W.C. Worrall was diagnosed with tuberculosis prior to the outbreak of WW2. He was sent to Switzerland to recuperate, and, whilst there, visited the Saurer factory, where he himself had once worked. Saurer gave him permission to use the company’s advanced four valve head and toroidal piston cavity in his new engine design. Shortly after Worral’s return to Britain, war broke out, limiting Crossley’s commercial options, but three prototype engines were constructed with combustion chamber detailed design being made by Leslie Bennett, a mathematician and combustion specialist. Thus Crossley had done all the right things and succeeded in a designing a powerful and reliable unit. Then, as the new SD/DD42 chassis production began to get under way in 1944, Saurer, entirely reasonably, asked for a royalty or licence payment in recognition of the fact that the Swiss company’s patents were employed in the head design. The exact details of the fees involved have since been buried in the passage of time (probably deliberately). The Crossley MD, Arthur Hubble was having none of this, and refused to comply, instead ordering that the cylinder head of the new engine be redesigned completely to avoid any payment to Saurer. The new head had two valves per cylinder instead of four, and the toroidal piston cavity was reshaped with sharp concentric ridges, the (misplaced) theory being that these would improve the swirl effect. The new head was married up with the original block intended for the Saurer type head, and the result was a motor strangulated by hopelessly contorted airflows. In addition, poor coolant circulation led to overheating and high back pressure in the crankcase. This ill advised redesign ended the involvement of Saurer, but left Crossley with a exceptionally poor engine. When AEC took control of Crossley, it lost patience with Gorton’s refusal to attend to the cylinder head deficiencies and undertook remedial design itself. It is an overstatement to suggest that AEC simply solved the problems with the Crossley engine. The downdraught cylinder head was not a cheap conversion, and, although it did improve the airflow characteristics and reliability issues to a very great extent, the HOE7 could never be turned into a truly good motor. What baffles me somewhat is the fact that Dennis used a four valve head and toroidal piston cavity in its O4 and O6 diesels, yet no payment was ever made to Saurer. Presumably the Dennis design differed sufficiently to escape the Saurer patents.
Roger Cox
18/11/14 – 15:50
Aberdeen Corporation did have five Gardner engined AEC Regent V’s with Crossley bodies (205 – 209). In 1959 they purchased five AEC Regent V’s with AEC engines and Alexander bodies (271-275). By 1963, they also had been fitted with Gardner 6LW engines. I seem to recall that Maidstone and District also converted some coaches in the same manner as that done by Northern General.
Stephen Bloomfield
19/11/14 – 05:57
Stephen, I think the Maidstone vehicles you refer to had Harrington bodies but the end result was quite similar.
Ian Wild
24/11/14 – 17:03
On the subject of seized AEC Reliance engines I Drove for Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury in the late 1970s. Due to a vehicle shortage one weekend a AEC Reliance/Plaxton was hired from Kirby Coach dealers of Sheffield. Returning from Blackpool on the Saturday night the engine seized up on the M62. Rather then owning up to this, a visit was made to a scrappers at Barnsley and a similar engine was obtained and shoe horned in. I dare say no one was ever the wiser.
