Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1949 Guy Arab III Duple L27/26RD
HWO 344 was a 1949 Guy Arab III with Duple L53RD body, in the fleet of Provincial, Gosport & Fareham. She’s been relegated to duty as a training vehicle and is seen outside the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton on the same dull lunchtime as my view of the Southern Vectis Bristol Lodekka KDL 414 in March 1974, which was published a few weeks ago. She is an exile from Red & White (L1949 in their fleet) and is of course a sister vehicle to L1749 which features in the excellent “Gallery” by Ken Morgan titled Red and White Guy L1749.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
29/11/12 – 07:41
Copyright Diesel Dave
I was pleasantly surprised to see the photo of the Provincial Duple bodied Guy Arab III trainer T1 as I had recently been looking through some of my old photos which included a photo of the same bus taken in the early 70’s at the Provincial Hoeford garage.
Diesel Dave
29/11/12 – 10:08
Nice view, Dave! Brighter than mine, of course, since it was taken in sunshine. It’s always seemed a pity to me that there is no fleet name on the side of the vehicle.
Pete Davies
29/11/12 – 11:09
It did have its own identity, though; the minute T1 amidst the signs! I wonder how many trainers they had.
Chris Hebbron
29/11/12 – 16:12
Chris, so far as I am aware, there’s only ever been one trainer in use at a time. The last I recall seeing was a Bristol FLF (EMR 295D) ex Wilts & Dorset, and it didn’t seem to have a T prefix to the fleet number. It did, however, have the Provincial fleet name in NBC style.
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1958 AEC Regent V LD3RA Park Royal H65R
975 CWL is an AEC Regent V of the LD3RA variety. She was new in 1958 and has a Park Royal body seating 65. New to City of Oxford as their 975, she is seen in the yard of the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton, still in Provincial (Gosport & Fareham) green and cream but with Hants & Dorset fleetname in NBC style. It’s April 1975 and she is between duties on the 47 Winchester service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
16/03/14 – 09:42
A beautifully balanced classic design. What were BET and PRV thinking when they let those dreadful steel framed monsters loose on the world. I cannot believe it was impossible to produce a better design – just because they had steel frames. As was pointed out recently, sticking a Beverley Bar outline on a Bridgemaster worked wonders at East Yorkshire.
David Oldfield
16/03/14 – 09:43
It’s a long time since I submitted this, because so many of you have been sending in far better views, but I have a vague recollection the original text said that she is preserved.
Pete Davies
16/03/14 – 11:55
With only 65 seats in a 30ft body, the legroom must have been quite generous!
Chris Barker
17/03/14 – 07:45
I have this listed as preserved in Kidlington but have never seen it.
Ken Jones
17/03/14 – 17:33
Yes – preserved awaiting restoration.
Philip Lamb
17/03/14 – 17:34
This picture sums up for me the confusion of the early NBC era. It’s a green Hants & Dorset bus, but it’s not H&D Tilling green. It’s in Provincial green/cream, but not their traditional style. It’s a BET origin bus operating for a former Tilling company. (OK, Hants & Dorset operated some AEC Regent III’s earlier). In the background is a Lodekka, presumably a Hants & Dorset bus, but in red, not in green! Well, it did all settle down of course to just red or green in NBC shades, until Confusion Stage 2 arrived with deregulation. Hants & Dorset survives (sort of) under the fleet name “Damory Coaches”, operating some stage services in Dorset in a rather non-descript grey livery. It’s part of Wilts and Dorset, which is part of Go Ahead. Yes, times have moved on. The Regent V in the picture does still look good, and was splendid in it’s original City of Oxford livery.
Michael Hampton
18/03/14 – 08:23
Very generous, Chris, most 30ft deckers of this layout were usually around the 73 seat mark.
Ronnie Hoye
18/03/14 – 10:55
These buses were known in Oxford as “Queens’ due to their size and indeed majestic appearance. 65 was later to become the standard COMs seating capacity for double-deckers with centre gangway in the upper saloon until the arrival of the first Fleetlines, following the first batch of Bridgemasters which seated 72. Subsequent Bridgemasters and the Renowns had a shortened rear overhang and were all 28-ft long 65-seat forward-entrance vehicles – not quite as roomy as the Queens! The five Lolines were forward-entrance 63-seaters.
Philip Lamb
18/03/14 – 10:57
I have always presumed that the reason for 65 seats in a 30ft body was in order to comply with an agreement with the staff in respect of maximum capacities – such agreements were common at the time. Having said that, Oxford’s first Bridgemasters (306-15) were 72-seaters – there may have been a ‘no standing passengers’ agreement, or restrictions on which routes they served. Anyone know the full story? Later Oxford Bridgemasters (316-28) and all the Renowns (329-71) were short 65-seaters. Oxford purchased sixteen 30ft Regent Vs in late 1957/early 1958 – eight with Weymann bodies (964-71) and eight Park Royal (972-9). All were H37/28R while with Oxford. As far as I am aware, all the above sixteen went for further service with other operators after sale by Oxford. Stevensons (of Spath) upseated 966 and fitted platform doors, making it H41/32RD. Laycocks of Barnoldswick fitted doors to 968, but left the seating as it was – as 968 was replacing an accident-damaged 53-seater, the capacity perhaps wasn’t seen as critical. Were any of the others upseated, or fitted with doors?
David Call
18/03/14 – 13:48
Michael, the Hants & Dorset Lodekka with the T style indicator display you mention is XPM 47, new to Brighton Hove & District.
Pete Davies
18/03/14 – 17:26
Thank you, Pete D for the info about the red Lodekka in the background – doesn’t it just add to the glorious (or inglorious) mix of events at that time? Although of Tilling origin, it’s original colours were neither tilling red or green, but a handsome red and cream! Also, a correction. I have passed several Damory vehicles today, and all were a deep blue, quite smart if admiring modern vehicles. Perhaps the grey was a passing phase, or my poor memory.
Michael Hampton
19/03/14 – 07:27
No, Michael – our successors in title to the Hants & Dorset “COMPANY” name, if not the fleetname, are like the rest of the ‘Go South Coast’ group in that they don’t seem able to keep a livery for long. Could be Worst (f), of course!!!
Pete Davies
19/03/14 – 07:28
969 gained platform doors when owned by Leon of Finningley.
Keith Clark
19/03/14 – 16:27
On an isolated trip into Damory country some years ago, I seem to recall seeing the buses in light grey and white, perhaps another passing phase, Michael!
Chris Hebbron
20/03/14 – 17:21
I don’t recall seeing any grey, Chris, but certainly turquoise has appeared in the past!
Pete Davies
22/03/14 – 08:23
I did a double-take when I saw this photo as I thought Pete Davies must have been standing next to me when he took it. However, my photo of this bus in the same place has a different route number and different vehicles in the background. H&Ds vehicle shortage was so bad at this time that I used to cycle to Shirley Road and Grosvenor Place every Sunday morning to see what had turned up that week – this one was a surprise though. I believe it lasted 5 weeks before the crews blacked it! I was told that the cab window had a habit of randomly dropping out over the bonnet!
Phil Gilbert
22/03/14 – 15:37
Phil G, most of my views at this location were taken during the working week, rather than at weekends, and usually during the lunch break.
Pete Davies
24/05/14 – 08:30
I used the ‘-CWL’ Regents in the late ’60s when travelling on the old ‘3’ service that ran along Walton Street, and they shared the route with (mostly)Renowns and Bridgemasters until the sudden arrival of the first ‘G’ reg., N.C.M.E. bodied Fleetlines that must have been the last ‘true’ Oxford’ double-deckers to keep both the old livery and the single-panel front route-number/destination display. With the Daimlers, a new, racier, ‘go faster’, ‘Oxford’ transfer appeared, smaller and less ‘stuffy’ than the old one. As for the roomy Regents, I always thought that the curvy bodywork of the second, Park Royal, batch helped redeem the plainness that came with the tin front: I never thought that any of these buses would survive their (routine) early retirement by C.O.M.S. and it was a surprise to find that ‘975’ may still be around as another potential showcase for the attractive old ‘Oxford’ livery (the ‘magic’ of the scheme was lost, in my view, when the it became a plain, two-colour affair).
I’ve been away from the Oxford area for decades and came across the correspondence on the ‘long Regents’ by accident. If my observation about ‘975’ gets posted, could I ask if anyone can explain why Oxford was flooded with ‘alien’ two-man double-deckers (such as Aldershot & District’s Loline 1s and East Kent’s Regent Vs) in the late ’60s? Was this an early manifestation of the N.B.C. homogenisation that would bring the inevitable Bristol VRs, or was their some kind of operational crisis that required a ‘loan out’ from other operators.
John Hardman
25/05/14 – 09:28
Re vehicle shortages in Oxford. In 1981/82 I was working in “The City” and attended a talk given by the head of City of Oxford M.S. He said that every time the hourly pay rates increased in the Cowley car factory, the mechanical/engineering staff left Cowley Road depot for more pay. So it could well have been a lack of engineering staff, until the next pay rise on the bus side of the equation. Eventually COMS moved the engineering facility to Witney, so as to make it uneconomical to commute to the car factory in Cowley.
Dave Farrier
25/06/14 – 08:19
Dorset Transit buses were white, light grey and orange- there were a couple of Leyland National 1’s at least- not sure if there were other types. I have seen pictures of them parked up amongst Damory vehicles, but don’t know if there was a connection.
Mark
02/05/16 – 06:40
Reference the vehicle shortages, that was indeed the case – engineering staff shortages. It became a major embarrassment at Oxford (and further afield) in the early days of NBC. So they flooded the streets with unconventional vehicles (for Oxford streets) that were running well while the maintenance was transferred to other companies.
Alan O. Watkins
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/10/17 – 07:02
Just a note to say that 975CWL is still alive, albeit still awaiting finishing off. 75% of the major work has been completed but other projects have recently had priority and I would also like to see 975 completed before I “pop off” Regarding the vehicle shortages, yes staff was a part off the problem but a major factor was the lack of AEC engine parts, notably 470 & 505 pistons and liners which were in very short supply and caused most of the COMS fleet of Reliances and Swifts to be off the road at the same time. Also a lot of the cooling systems were in bad shape due to the resistance to using anti-freeze in the early sixties……………and it came back to bite them! When a new Chief Engineer was appointed in 1973 there was much needed investment carried out in the Engineering department with new facilities for annual MOT preparation made at Chipping Norton Depot, not Witney although this depot was also enlarged to cope with the extra allocation. In 1973 25 Fords were introduced to replace the Reliances………but that is another story!
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1957 AEC Regent V LD3RA Park Royal H37/28R
Taken at Hoeford depot on 30/03/69 having been recently transferred from City of Oxford where it had been No H972 this photo shows newly painted Provincial No 60 an LD3RA AEC Regent V with a Park Royal H37/28R body registration number 972 CWL delivered to COMS in December 1957. As a fan of the AEC concealed radiator and the AEC marque in general I find this and the elegant 30ft long Park Royal body an irresistible combination, the only way the effect could be improved would be for it to be in the original superb Oxford livery. This was taken on the same occasion as my posting of the Guy Wulfrunian.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
14/04/16 – 06:05
Very nice shot Diesel Dave. I too am a fan of the Regent V in all its forms and this is a most handsome version. It would indeed have looked the bees knees in City of Oxford livery, but at least in your photo it’s paintwork looks fresh – probably just repainted out of Provincial’s distinctive ‘jade’ green livery. (Don’t ask me the shade as I haven’t a clue as to what is was officially called!). The NBC leaf green and white also seems to emphasise the length of the AEC nicely, which brings me to the date of the photo Dave, as NBC corporate livery didn’t make its debut until late 1972 I’m afraid. The Regent is wearing the original white ‘Double N’ arrowhead alongside the fleetname. This was replaced some years later by the red and blue arrowhead within a white square. Sadly I did not get to know the Provincial fleet until the early ‘eighties, by which time the fleet was standardising on the Leyland National. Mind you I was fortunate in seeing Provincial’s Bristol-ECW RELL in the wonderful ‘Anniversary livery’ in Gosport a few times while staying with friends, which gave a tantalising glimpse of life before leaf green.
Brendan Smith
14/04/16 – 06:06
Very nice view, Dave. Thanks for posting.
Pete Davies
14/04/16 – 06:06
As the NBC corporate image was introduced in the summer of 1972, I don’t think the stated date in 1969 is correct.
Nigel Frampton
14/04/16 – 08:11
The “jade green” originally used by Provincial was… “Provincial Green”! When Provincial 35 (’36 Regent BOR 767) first came into preservation in 1969 and needed a repaint, Dulux were able to call up the code and make the correct shade of Dulux Coach Paint – for the first time in many years. Provincial later turned to a ‘stock’ colour (I don’t know the details of this) which was very similar, but different enough for some enthusiasts to say that the colour on 35 was ‘wrong’!
David Chapman
14/04/16 – 10:28
Very low seating capacity for a thirty foot double-decker, you would normally expect a bus of this size to be H41/32R. Must have had excellent legroom, unlike some modern buses!
Don McKeown
15/04/16 – 07:15
Yes, Don. That very discussion was included in members’ comments in respect of my contribution on the Hants & Dorset (ex Oxford Via Provincial) 975CWL.
Pete Davies
15/04/16 – 07:16
I suspect that the date is closer to 1973/4 as I seem to recall that 975CWL was in use by Hants and Dorset around then and may have been transferred around the same time.
Steve Barnett
15/04/16 – 07:17
All the Aldershot & District Dennis Lolines had 68 seat bodies by East Lancs, Alexander and Weymann, and were superb vehicles to ride in (and to drive). As Don suggests, modern buses with their closely spaced hard plastics “shaped” (but not to my contours) seating are excruciatingly uncomfortable.
Roger Cox
15/04/16 – 07:17
These buses were known as ‘Queens’ by their Oxford crews due to their sheer size. I seem to recall that the relatively low seating capacity had something to do with local union agreements, but I stand to be corrected. Sister bus H975 is preserved awaiting restoration.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1947 AEC Regent II Reading H56R
The AEC Regent II was only in production for three years 1945 – 48 and just under 700 were made but at the time just after the war they were much in demand. There wasn’t any variations either it came with a 7.7 litre 6 cylinder oil engine, four speed sliding mesh gearbox otherwise known as a crash gearbox and vacuum assisted brakes, but on saying that it was well capable of doing the job and most of all it was very reliable. Of course there was a choice of body and the above bus had one from the local Portsmouth bodybuilders Reading who built and rebuilt quite a few buses for Provincial.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
When Provincial re-built their Guy Arabs with air-cooled Deutz engines, they built the lower decks of the bus bodies themselves, then sent the half-completed bodies to Portsmouth bodybuilder, Reading, who built the upper deck and roof. A strange practice indeed. Reading also built several bodies for Portsmouth Corporation buses, too.
Chris Hebbron
Provincial had 4 of these Regent IIs, numbered 10-13 (FHO 602-5). Strangely enough, no.10 was the only one of the batch not to undergo any significant rebuilding (with the exception of a minor alteration to the destination box layout in the late 1950s) and was also the last one withdrawn in December 1968. By 1959,11/12 were found to be suffering from body rot and were subsequently rebuilt using the wartime Reading bodies from AEC rebuilds 14 (EOR 251) and 15 (EHO 282); whilst 13 was initially converted to open-top in 1958 following a collision at Fareham Railway Arch, and rebuilt to closed top once more by Reading in 1960. For further photos of Provincial vehicles, here are a couple of links: //www.flickr.com///www.regent8.co.uk/(select ‘In Focus’)
Stephen Didymus
14/07/12 – 18:29
Copyright Beckingtonian (Flikr) with his permission.
Here is a colour photo of a very smart No. 10, taken in 1968, just a year before its withdrawal, as scrap, in April 1969, after a creditable 22 years of service.
Photo by unknown if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1936 AEC Regent I Metro Cammell H56R
Provincial certainly got there moneys worth out of the buses they bought either new or second hand and in the case of the above bus it was originally owned by Nottingham Corporation. Bought in 1954 this bus was originally fleet no 213 with Nottingham. This was not the only bus bought from Nottingham as I have a shot of another Regent I all be it one year younger and with a Craven body I will post it on site one day. One strange thing about this bus was the route number box positioned at the back of the engine bay it looks as if it was an after thought, is engine bay the correct term for there? if not let me know leave a comment.
This bus was withdrawn in 1961 after a total of 25 years service with I can more or less safely say the original body.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
The number box under the canopy was the standard Provincial method of indicating route number.
ps I should add that, when I was a young boy in the late 1940’s, I’m fairly sure that Provincial routes were unnumbered. When it was decided to number them, these route number boxes were provided under the canopy and, if my memory is correct, also inside the rear nearside window on the lower deck. so, in a way, you are correct in assuming that they were an afterthought. Compared to the other local buses of Southdown, Hants & Dorset and Portsmouth Corporation, the Provincial buses were regarded as bone shakers but what a wonderful fleet for the enthusiast. There were so many one-offs that I could often tell the registration of a bus when I saw it in the distance. Like many things in life, you don’t realise what you have lost until it is gone.
Nigel Fall
A great picture and little pieces of information. I remember these or similar with great affection being a Gosport boy.
Martyn Cross
What’s that- as well?- between the top front windows? Must have been a lovely summery day- even the windscreen is open: that’s a memory too!
Joe
That between the top front windows was a throw-back to its previous incarnation in Nottingham, who at one time seemed to feel that a route number mounted aloft was A Jolly Good Thing. However, many were subsequently remodelled in a more conventional style, and I think one or two of the latter accompanied CTO 387 to Provincial (ETV 785, ex-NCT 65 for example.)
Stephen Ford
Provincial introduced route numbers in 1950. There were four ex Nottingham vehicles in the fleet during the late 50s/early 60s, viz: 62 (DAU 462); 63 (above) and 64/65 (ETV 778/85), the last one being acquired in 1957 as a replacement for vehicles lost in the fire at Hoeford depot. The Craven-bodied example (62) was partially rebuilt during the late 1950s and ended up with a front destination layout to Provincial’s standard design of the time (see photo of 10 (FHO 602) below). All the Nottingham vehicles had been withdrawn by 1961, but were kept as sources of spares until being dispatched to a Basingstoke scrap dealer in 1963.
Stephen Didymus
04/08/13 – 06:39
Yes, I remember route numbers being introduced in 1950. I excitedly told my mum that my bus home from Leesland School was now called Route 6 (Gosport Ferry to Grange Estate via Whitworth Road). Ten years later I spent an enjoyable summer as a conductor on Provincial in between leaving school and starting at university.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1937 AEC Regent I Craven H56R
Here is another of the four ex Nottingham Regents that Provincial acquired in 1954 it was fleet number 220 in the Nottingham fleet. According to Stephen Didymus this vehicle was partially rebuilt during the late 1950s and ended up with a front destination layout to Provincial’s standard design of the time. Craven bodybuilders were located at Sheffield their main business appeared to be railway carriages but they also made tram and bus bodies. During the war they apparently made the wings for the “Horsa” troop carrying gliders, and components for the Lancaster bombers. They also built 120 AEC RT type vehicles for London Transport but they were not built to the same specification as the rest having five bay bodies instead of four is one example. Not being to the same specification also meant that their bodies would not be interchangeable with others RTs built by other bodybuilders so they did not last long with London Transport and were soon sold off.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Sheffield Transport’s 15 1948 Regent IIIs and the RTs were probably Cravens’ swansong before they concentrated on production of trams and then railway rolling stock – especially DMUs. What isn’t widely known is that Cravens bought East Lancs in the early sixties, after a chance meeting of the chairmen of both companies. At the same time, they tried to expand by opening Neepsend Coachworks in that same district of Sheffield. Although Neepsend closed after only four years, both it and East Lancs were subsidiaries of Cravens – Neepsend was never owned by East Lancs. Cravens soon sold out to the bigger John Brown Group – a steel manufacturer in Sheffield – who eventually sold East Lancs on to Dawson Williams and Drawlane (which became British Bus and, eventually, Arriva).
David Oldfield
Nostalgic picture. I can recall the pre-war Regents working in Nottingham in the early 50s. 50 of this Cravens bodied version were supplied about 1938 (DAU451-500, running numbers 72-76 and 214-258). Metro-Cammell supplied a total of 93 (I think) during 1936-37, and Northern Counties 35 in 1935. From the sound, I would judge that they were all pre-selectors. I think that all varieties were originally built with narrow upstairs front windows flanking a central route number box, but most were subsequently rebuilt in the style shown on the photo. The Cravens had a slightly glowering appearance, and the Northern Counties had a more rounded dome and less steeply raked front. Internally, the three series were similar. Lighting was by naked bulbs in oval “volcano” fittings – except for the Northern Counties which had big circular “volcanos”. The Cravens and MCs had plunger bells instead of “push once” buttons. Nearly all were displaced from front line service by the 1953-55 deliveries of Park Royal Regent IIIs (OTV127-198 with running numbers matching the registration). It was this that released various of them for sale to Provincial around 1954. Click here to see one in Nottingham about 1948.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1938 AEC Regent I Weymann H56R
On 31st December 1962, a heavy snowfall occurred in the Portsmouth area, an unusual happening, and the snowy conditions lingered on until the March of 1963. The immediate consequence in Portsmouth was that Portsmouth’s trolleybuses bounced on the snow-packed uneven and unsalted roads to the extent that the poles came off the wires, with motor buses having to take over for a day or so! On the other side of Portsmouth Harbour, having come to grief in a ditch, the first photo shows Provincial 48 (JML 784) about to be recovered from a ditch in Brookers Lane (outskirts of Gosport), unusually by a Royal Navy crane, on 2nd January. A Royal Naval Air Station was only a few miles away at Lee-on-Solent. The second photo shows the bus “in full swing” and about to land on “all foursâ” again. No.48 started life as a demonstrator, prior to being taken into “Provincial” stock on 01.05.39, being numbered 48 in October 1939. The accident was not fatal to the vehicle, for it lasted in service until 27.08.64, a creditable 25 years with Provincial in total.
Photos by kind permission of David Whitaker. Copy by Chris Hebbron, with vehicle’s history taken with his permission from Ray Tull’s “Provincial” website www.regent8.co.uk
19/05/12 – 15:38
There’s an active “interest” group ‘The Provincial Society’. They have a website as follows: www.provincialsociety.org
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1931 AEC Regal I Reading FB35F
The Regent in the above shot was on the Crossley Omnibus Society Grand Southern tour and here it can be seen at the Provincial bus depot parked next to their number 66. Provincial had a tendency to get their monies worth out of the vehicles they owned and 66 was no exception. The vehicle was purchased from Timpsons of London in 1949 with the original registration of GN 7271, on arrival at Provincial it was immediately fitted with an AEC 7·7 litre diesel engine, rebodied with a Reading half canopy C32R body and reregistered as GOU 449. Ten years later it was rebodied again with the one in the shot above which was a Reading FB35F, it served a further 11 years at Provincial before being sold for scrap in 1970. This vehicle must be fairly high on the list of “longest serving vehicles” at 39 years. When David sent me this shot he said it was scanned from a very dark slide and he would understand if I did not use it, I think it would be a waste not to, especially a colour one and anyway David if you want to see a shot that should not be used click here.
Photograph contributed by David Beilby
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
09/02/11 – 05:48
It’s a bit like the old story of Paddy’s brush – or Caesar’s original penknife isn’t it? Nearly everything has been replaced, but there is still a clear historical trail that says it is still the original! I do not say this in any sense of criticism – I grew up in Barton’s territory, and beneath some of their shiny “new” vehicles (well, bodies anyway) you could discover mechanical antiques continuing to serve their original purpose perfectly satisfactorily.
Stephen Ford
01/07/11 – 06:15
Further photos of this vehicle with its original Reading coach body, plus what it might have looked like with Timpson can be found on the AEC Regal page at: //www.regent8.co.uk/ click on rotating arrow
Stephen Didymus
01/07/11 – 09:22
As Stephen rightly says at one time there were many fascinating “enigmas on wheels” giving splendid service for incredible lengths of time. Perhaps the most spectacular that I ever actually worked on was Samuel Ledgard’s magnificent Burlingham bodied AEC Regal – it was a Birmingham Corporation Regent 1 of 1930, but how many happy day trippers to the seaside could possibly have imagined that?? It had been rebuilt by Don Everall of Wolverhampton – a Corgi model of it exists, but with a Duple body instead of the correct Burlingham, and the registration FWJ 938 – should be FJW – but a lovely model nevertheless.
Chris, the same could be said of the coach just visible behind 66. It is either 68 (OCG 444) or 69 (PCG 436)both of which were chassis that started life as City Of Oxford Regents in 1932, and acquired as such by Provincial in 1940. 68 was originally 22 (JO 5406), whilst 69 was rebuilt from a combination of 20/21 (JO 5404/5). Both were given Reading coach bodies in 1955/56 and survived until early 1969.
Stephen Didymus
02/07/11 – 12:07
Sorry for digressing slightly but FJW 938 seems doubly strange because it is pre-war, with a Regent (or Regal) II radiator and front wings and a Mk III bonnet!
Chris Barker
02/07/11 – 16:24
It’s a shame that virtually no information is immediately available about Reading and the other Portsmouth bodybuilder, Portsmouth Aviation.
Chris Hebbron
03/07/11 – 05:54
Thanks Chris H and Chris B – the bonnet and radiator are indeed fascinating features too – I wonder where they originated ?? – not from the shelves of a dealer in new parts I’ll be bound !! As the old darling is displaying “Otley” on the destination blind it has obviously recently carried “stage carriage” passengers in style and acoustic delight at absolutely no extra charge !!
Chris Youhill
03/07/11 – 20:40
Chris H: David Whitaker has written an excellent book on Readings the Portsmouth coachbuilders. Titled “Reading First & Last”, it is available from the Provincial Society website. In addition to many bus photos of Provincial, Portsmouth, and Channel Island vehicles, there are also a considerable number of lorries, ambulances and ice cream vans.
Provincial (Gosport & Fareham Omnibus Co) 1943 AEC Regal I/Regent I Reading H??/??R
Doubt exists about the vehicle chassis type, but here is the story as of now. In 1943, Mr Orme-White carried out his first (of many) vehicle re-constructions, involving an AEC Regal I (although recent research suggests it was a Regent I chassis), purchased from the War Department with the registration DK 7791. The original source of the chassis is unknown. Provincial re-conditioned the chassis, fitted a 7.7 litre AEC engine and got Reading’s of Portsmouth to body it. It was their first double deck offering, of utility specification and painted wartime grey. It was also re-registered EHO 282 and numbered 15. In 1952, it was rebuilt again by Reading and lasted in service until 1959. Its body was then donated to number 12 (FHO 604) and the chassis scrapped. What is interesting is that a small and almost unknown bodybuilder was given permission to build an austerity body and it might well have been its sole effort. The year of build was after the initial austerity bodies had been built on “unfrozen” chassis, but before full-scale austerity bodybuilding had got underway. Did Reading come up with its own design or use someone else’s austerity plans? If the latter, the question is whose does it resemble?
Photograph Reading Coachworks (from the website below). Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron using material by Ray Tull and Stewart Brett from the website //www.regent8.co.uk/regents.htm
08/09/11 – 14:27
What clue is there in the fuel pump on the bulkhead?
Joe
08/09/11 – 14:28
Probably of no significance at all, but the next registration to the original donor vehicle, DK 7792, was a Regal supplied to Yelloway in 1932.
Stephen Ford
08/09/11 – 14:29
The DK registration on the chassis was a Rochdale area plate.
Roger Broughton
08/09/11 – 14:30
Looks like a semi-floating hub at the back, so can’t be later than 1932. And what a well-proportioned body!
Ian Thompson
I lived in the Gosport area as a child from 1949 to 1952, and well remember the Provincial (Gosport & Fareham) Regents. These initially puzzled me as their sound was so unlike the London Transport AECs that I recalled as a very small boy from 1946, when I lived in Selsdon, Croydon. I personally much preferred the Guy/Park Royal bodied Guy Arab IIIs that served the Alverstoke and Haslar Route 11 on which I lived, and the Arab III is still one of my favourite bus types. It is now thought that EHO 282 was a Regent. The Regal had a longer wheelbase than the double deck chassis. The photo indicates that the proportions of the bus are in keeping with those of a Regent, whereas a double deck body on a Regal would have necessitated a short length behind the rear axle to keep within the 26ft overall length limit of the time.
Roger Cox
10/09/11 – 07:42
One thing I didn’t mention originally was the bespoke double destination blind boxes, a Provincial’ feature, even then. All extra work in austerity times. And are they safety rails high up on the upper-deck front windows? They don’t look like vents or the like. It looks as if there’s a Regal/Regent badge on the radiator grill itself – pity it’s illegible. Thx for the additional comments which have shed some more light on this intriguing bus. And I think most of us echo Roger’s comment about proportion – austerity bus bodies have a charm of their own.
Chris Hebbron
10/09/11 – 07:43
And Roger could that also be the explanation as to why the Leon Lion had a centre entrance utility body fitted?
Chris Barker
11/09/11 – 08:18
I think that you have hit on the answer about the Leon Lion, Chris. Photos can be a bit misleading sometimes, but the picture of the Lion does seem to show that the rear wheel is located directly under the rearmost but one window on this five bay body. The centre bay is decidedly wider than the rest, so that all the other bays are obviously of pretty short length, and the rear axle seems to be located well to the rear of the bus. A centre or front entrance would have been the best solution in the circumstances.
Roger Cox
17/04/12 – 14:18
The original post mentions Mr Orme-White. I’ve no idea how true it is, but I have been told that Mr White of the Provincial Tramways group (Gosport and Fareham, Portsdown & Horndean among others) was the same Mr White of White’s Removals, and this is the reason behind the removal company’s “sponsorship” of some trams under restoration in the Portsmouth area.
Pete Davies
11/07/12 – 18:39
I contacted White & Co. (Removals) of Portsmouth, Pete, and, after a period of silence, while the family tree was being consulted, they’ve advised me that there seems to be no connexion between H Orme-White and their family.
Chris Hebbron
12/07/12 – 19:29
Now there`s a name to savour! This was a fleet just made for enthusiasts, and my early experiences of being a bus enthusiast are saturated with the delights of this wonderful fleet. I am just amazed that it does not enter these columns on a more regular basis. I remember they had an AEC “Mandator” petrol tanker rebodied as a bus, and have often been tempted to join the Provincial Society, but one cannot be “in everything” Mention of Mr Orme White reminds me that the family were connected with the Imperial Tramways group, who had interests in Grimsby, Middlesbrough, and , pre Sir Clifton Robinson, with one of my favourite tram fleets, the London United! I think they also had connections with the ill-fated Mid Yorkshire Tramways too. Lets have more Provincial content, and, in the meantime, may I recommend those who are able, to make the journey to Crich, where LUT No.159 is about to be unveiled after a beautiful restoration to its pre-Underground Group condition. As a TMS member, I do have an axe to grind, but it really is a wonderful expression of the art of vintage vehicle restoration, under the professional care of the TMS staff, and the “LCC Tramways Trust”. Sorry to go all “trammy”….it won`t happen again!
John Whitaker
John W is right to applaud the Orme-White family and their link with some great companies such as London United Tramways and the Provincial Tramways Group. I believe the Gosport & Fareham Bus Company running under the name Provincial started in 1929 and replaced the trams. By 1936 they had bought several AEC Regents with Park Royal bodies. Some of these buses were still running in 1963 when I visited Gosport. I rode on one of these buses and this experience was magic, as the sound from the AEC crash gearbox was something never to be forgotten. The Provincial Company had some very interesting buses and hopefully someone has some photos to post on this web site.
Richard Fieldhouse
14/07/12 – 07:48
I probably feel about LUT’s ‘Diddlers’ the way John W feels about LUT’s trams. YouTube has a couple of short films about ‘Diddlers’ on their inauguration day in May 1931, but there are several antiquated (albeit covered-top) LUT trams putting in an appearance, too. It’s wonderful to see that long-gone world, 88 years ago. Little traffic, an open-top NS bus, steam roller, conductor punching tickets, driver’s white summer coat, evocative soundtrack…I feel the eyes watering now! Enjoy HERE: www.youtube.com
Chris Hebbron
14/07/12 – 10:56
I too, Chris, am captivated by that era of summer coats for drivers, with the odd steam roller about! I don`t quite remember it, but it is of extra fascination because it is close, but not quite akin to our earliest memories. I have always been fascinated by history, especially from the early 19C., when I like to imagine myself involved at the time of my (other hobby) family history characters! I regard the Diddlers as part of the LUT story, and, as such, they have an appeal of their own. I do not think they were particularly attractive vehicles, but that is of no consequence; they were very much an “in house” product of the Underground Group, built “in house” by UCC, and were not intended, design wise, to appeal to the general transport “market”, but more intended to resemble the “Feltham” trams. This whole period of tram to trolleybus conversion, and the early days of London Transport provides enough material for years and years of OBP correspondence! I should have mentioned earlier, that the White family, George White in LUT days, were also involved in the early days of Bristol Tramways, which had Imperial Group connections too.
John Whitaker
14/07/12 – 18:04
I shall look forward to seeing LUT’s 159 at my next visit to Crich, John. It must have been a huge task to recreate all that top deck ‘cast-iron’ alone. At the other end of the spectrum, I have a soft spot for Feltham MET 331, looking much sleeker and stylish than its mainstream cousins. I hold no special brief for London Transport, but what it achieved from its 1933 creation to 1940 was amazing….with sliderules, but without computers!
I well remember these Regals from my childhood in the Gosport area between 1949 and 1952. The very first Regal 4 – the Arabic numeral denoted the installation of a four cylinder engine – was converted in June 1930 from a stock Regal chassis simply by replacing the 7.4 litre six cylinder petrol engine with the four cylinder 5.1 litre petrol used in the Monarch and Mercury goods ranges. However, sales of the new model were very modest in comparison with the main competing four cylinder offerings, the Leyland Lion and Dennis Lancet. In March 1933 an oil engine option became available for the Regal 4, initially of 5.35 litres capacity but soon increased to 6.6 litres, which enhanced the market appeal of the model. Provincial took an interest and ordered eight, CG 9606-9613, numbered (rather illogically, though this might have reflected the 1934 delivery dates) as 23/24/29/30/25/26/27/28, with Harrington B32R bodywork. These Regals went on to acquire a legendary reputation in enthusiast circles. In 1945/46 the four cylinder engines in these buses were replaced by 7.7 litre six cylinder units. Between 1953 and 1955 four of the batch were rebuilt to forward entrance format and then, in the years from 1957 to 1962, all eight received new Reading bodies, varying in capacity from FB33F to FB35F.
The final two rebuilds, CG 9607 and 9612 had bodies partially constructed by Provincial and completed by Reading. At the end of 1966 the redoubtable manager, Mr H Orme White, who had begun his Provincial career at the Great Grimsby Street Tramways Company, retired at the age of 81 after 30 years at Gosport, and the inexorable decline of the Gosport & Fareham business then began. Under the new manager, withdrawals of the Regals took place between 1966 and 1970, Provincial Traction having been sold off in the interim period to the Wiles Group, later renamed the Swain Group, part of the Hanson Trust, in 1969. The title picture above was given to me in 2006 by David Whitaker, the owner of the also illustrated 1961 rebuilt survivor, CG 9607, and it shows Nos 25/24/23, CG 9610/9607/9606, possibly not long after delivery in 1934. I did initially wonder if the photograph had been taken at Hoeford, but the unidentified double decker in the background is not a Provincial vehicle, though it certainly appears to be contemporary with the second half of the 1930s. More information about these Regals may be found at this link. Click on the arrow near the bottom of the page and then select “Provincial AEC Regals” from the list that appears.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
13/12/20 – 07:16
I remember these very well, especially in the original form. I used them rarely as we used the double deck 1 and 3 services. At the age of ten, I accompanied my family to Malta for three years, and on return found the rebodied examples running around. I am not sure how extensive the rebuild was, as clearly the front had changed and so had the windows and seats, but the windows were very narrow for the late 1950s, and the rear ends seemed unchanged.
