The recent posting of a Sheffield Mann Egerton bodied PD2 fleet number 362 provided some interesting information on new bus orders about that time and here is one of the Roe bodied PD2/12 ordered at the same time as the Mann Egerton pair. These were very elegant looking vehicles with deep windows in both saloons and I think looked especially handsome in the C T Humpidge era livery with three blue bands. Interesting to note how Roe incorporated a variation of the standard Sheffield destination layout – probably necessary because of the reduced depth available because of the afore mentioned deep windows. I well recall these buses replacing the Fulwood via Hunters Bar trams as the first programmed tram replacement scheme in January 1952. The new 88 bus route ran between the City and Fulwood with the City terminus being uniquely located in Eyre Street outside the Motor Vehicle Licensing Office (near the Central Library). This continued I believe until March 1954 when the 88 became a cross City service between Fulwood and Malin Bridge at the same time as the 81/82 bus routes replaced trams between Ecclesall and Middlewood. Here is 391 in later life about to turn into Herries Road Depot on a summer evening in July 1967. The batch of nine were withdrawn the following year and 391 ended up inevitably with a Barnsley breaker.
I am, of course, predisposed and prejudiced in this post. Magnificent body, excellent operator – and pretty good chassis!!! I never quite got to terms with the “heavy on blue” livery that all Roes were delivered in and generally preferred this scheme – which was always on repaint. Nevertheless, I also felt that these PD2s looked slightly bald in this scheme. Never actually rode on one and didn’t realise it was originally a City only service from Eyre Street. Only used the 60 to Crimicar Lane in my childhood – the 88 didn’t go up the hill!
David Oldfield
14/10/12 – 10:41
What I could never understand about the Sheffield fleet is this: all the views I have, bought ones or my own work relating to the bus fleet, show this style of livery. With the trams, however, and there are several preserved at Crich, if it was delivered in livery “A” it retained that livery throughout. If it was delivered in “B”, it retained “B” throughout. Only the 1953 ‘Roberts’ trams had this style. Can anyone explain the apparent reluctance to modernise the livery on the trams, when it seems to have been done on the buses?
Pete Davies
15/10/12 – 07:32
Pete, you seem to have an inaccurate memory – or information – about Sheffield livery. This scheme was introduced in about 1936 for the Domed Standard (tram) Cars and extended to AEC Regent/Weymann buses. It was extended to all buses eventually, pre-war, including Craven and Leyland bodied TD5 Titans. The livery was perpetuated after the war on the Roberts trams – the only trams bought after the Domed Standards and, of course, the last “first generation” trams. It was also the standard bus livery except, for some inexplicable reason, all Roe deckers, Leyland Farington deckers and the final “not” Farington Leyland body (which were delivered in the short-lived and disastrous green experimental livery). The Roe and Leyland bodies had far more blue paint but most, if not all, Roes were painted in the scheme shown at first overhaul. Yet another superb colour shot by Ian.
David Oldfield
15/10/12 – 10:00
Thank you, David. The source of my information seems to be incorrect!
Pete Davies
15/10/12 – 17:22
The whole vehicle is pure and classic Roe, except for the front upper deck windows which look a little odd, the way that the top edge looks lower than the side windows. No doubt it’s just the evening sun shining on the white dome but it made me look twice, I thought some alteration had been done. Still a superb bus though!
Chris Barker
15/10/12 – 17:23
And don’t forget the variant of the grey roof, David, which buses tended to acquire on first repaint. I’ve heard it said that the grey was made up in Queens Road by mixing the dregs of the cream and blue paint tins, but I’m not sure how correct that is. I think the practice ended after Chaceley Humpidge became GM in 1961, as he wasn’t a fan of the grey roof. Personally, I think the ‘Farington’ PD2’s in their ‘Roe’ style livery looked better than ever with the roof painted grey. Oddly enough, the domed roof trams that inaugurated the ‘new’ livery had a variation of the grey roof, or at least acquired one eventually; perhaps in wartime in an effort to make the cars less visible from the air? If the grey was in fact a combination of the blue and cream, perhaps it was a conscious effort on the part of the paint shop to not waste a drop!!
Dave Careless
16/10/12 – 05:29
Dave, you are absolutely correct about the grey paint – actually called “smudge”. It gave a certain dignity to an already super livery. I do not know, and to my shame have not as yet bothered to find out, whether there was a policy about the smudge. My feeling is that it was applied before entry into service (whether or not by the coachbuilder or by STD) and lost on overhaul/repaint. I certainly feel that all the Weymanns (classic and Orion alike) on 26′ and 27′ chassis entered service with smudge roofs. The Domed cars probably likewise.
David Oldfield
16/10/12 – 11:45
I don’t know whether there was a wartime edict to paint bus roofs a less obtrusive colour . LPTB went from silver to grey to brown quickly. However, the dirt falling onto tram and trolleybus roofs from poles and wiring might well have been a consideration not to change back later.
Chris Hebbron
16/10/12 – 16:52
Grey roof painting was widely adopted on the outbreak of WW2. It was kept by many operations for a long time afterwards. For instance Manchester had its 1946 deliveries painted in this manner. When it converted its orders to 8′ wide vehicles they appeared with red roofs, the 7′ 6″ vehicles retained the grey so the bus washers knew how to set washer width. Few 7’6″ vehicles appeared in the “overall” red scheme but by that time the washers set themselves automatically. Stockport cut back its grey from 1946 but retained the centre of the roof in grey for all deliveries up to and including the first batch of St Helen’s fronted PD2s in 1962. Frank Brimelow specified translucent roofs thereafter but all re-sprays of grey roofed vehicles received the grey until SELNEC took over.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/10/12 – 08:30
On the subject of grey or other colour for the roof, one of my former colleagues was a descendent of B C Baker of Birmingham City Transport. Birmingham had a sandy colour for their bus roofs, apparently as camouflage. My colleague suggested it was to confuse the Afrika Corps!
Pete Davies
17/10/12 – 08:31
This bus and its windows is reminiscent of Roe’s 8ft Doncaster 121 and 122 which were sold to Blue Ensign after 4 years because either they didn’t fit the streets (official) or the washer (Tony Peart). Did they also have the cranked seats and “high level” rear platform? It seems that Roe had a sudden urge to innovate…?
Joe
17/10/12 – 11:24
No, Joe, that was a Doncaster thing. The vehicles you mention are closer to STD 18/19; 113-119 – the 1952 four bay bodied Regent IIIs (my equal favourite with 1325 – 1349). Incidentally, Charles Halls has these PD2s (386 – 394) as 1951 and 361/2 (the Mann Egertons) as 1952. I always took this to be correct and that the Roes were late ’51 and the Mann Egertons early ’52.
David Oldfield
17/10/12 – 18:04
One further thought with respect to Sheffield’s penchant for grey roofs, a style that became a thing of the past after C.T. Humpidge took over. It occurs to me that it must have seemed a bit like deja vu to the new General Manager when he got settled into the chair at Sheffield in 1961. Bradford’s fleet had grey roofs into the early 1950’s, when he took over the top job in that city, after which the roofs on the buses eventually became blue on his watch. When he took over the reins at Sheffield, and saw the tins of “smudge” on the shelves at Queens Road, he must have felt he was starting all over again!
Dave Careless
18/10/12 – 07:46
The Fulwood via Hunters Bar tram route that these buses took over from was converted to bus operation (service 88) on 5th January 1952 so this batch would almost certainly have been delivered in late 1951. I can only recall one Sheffield bus with cranked seats and this was all Leyland 651 of the 1949 batch (and then I think the lower deck only). Can the Sheffield people out there confirm this and what was the reason?
Ian Wild
18/10/12 – 10:44
Chieftain Buses of Hamilton acquired a second-hand ex-Sheffield TD5 Craven in the late 40s. BWB ###. The engine in this bus sounded different to any other TD5 I had come across. It surely could not have been a petrol engine? Any enlightenment?
Jim Hepburn
18/10/12 – 14:37
Leeds had one AEC Regent with staggered seats 700 NUM 700 a 1950 show exhibit which was LCTs second 8ft wide bus I have a vague feeling that these were removed and replaced with normal seating towards the end of its LCT life.
Chris Hough
19/10/12 – 06:32
The Sheffield livery variation on the Roe bodied vehicles has long been a talking point. The whole process was caused by the changes to the Leyland Farington PD2/1’s delivered in 1949. The mouldings below the lower deck windows were discontinued, along with upper beading. Leyland asked for a simplified livery in lieu of cream and three blue bands, for the high cost of lining out would be excessive. AEC Regent Weymann FWJ 808 was used to trial a simpler paint style. With a slight modification,this livery was adopted for the large intake of Farington PD2’s. When the Roe order for PD2/12’s was placed, a similar situation resulted. The narrow lower deck waist rail would have unbalanced the lower deck blue band proportions, therefore a decision was made to adopt the Farington style. The new GM C.T.Humpidge took a dislike to the Roe livery in 1962 and repaints received the standard livery in due course. Remarkably, none of the Farington fleet were so changed in livery style.
Keith Beeden
24/11/12 – 06:50
Referring to Jim Hepburn’s post of 18th October, as the BWA to BWE range of registrations was limited to 1935, I would imagine that the vehicle he refers to would be a Leyland TD4C/Cravens which used the torque converter rather than a convention gearbox and was commonly known as ‘Gearless Bus’. The sound produced, as I remember, from like vehicles surviving into the 50’s resembled a long monotonous droning noise especially from a standing start.
Just to add to David Oldfield’s response to Pete Davies on the subject of liveries. For Pete to understand that trams delivered in Liveries A or B would retain that livery throughout is erroneous. Following the standardisation of Azure Blue and Cream circa 1936, numerous older trams previously wearing the Prussian Blue and Cream were repainted into the Azure Blue livery. In fact, one such tram, namely 150, delivered in Prussian Blue in 1930 was repainted into the ill-fated Green livery in 1952 and then Azure Blue shortly afterwards.
As regards the subject of the post, PD2 No. 391, my humble opinion is that it looks absolutely dreadful in the Humpidge interpretation of the standard livery. As Keith Beedon has explained, the Farrington style livery was applied to the Roe designs for good reason and looked nicely balanced on these elegant vehicles. The painting out of the dividing bar on the front destination box just added to the desecration but credit is due for restoring the cream roof. I would refer all to C.C.Hall’s ‘Sheffield Transport’ Page 263 to see just how superb 389 of the same batch looked when new. (I’m sure many of you will have this book but if not and you are ‘Up North’, there is a copy in the splendid ‘Search Engine’ Reference Library at the National Railway Museum at York)
John Darwent
18/12/12 – 17:37
Referring to Ian Wild’s post of 18-10-2012, Keith Beeden advises that Sheffield all Leyland 651 was fitted with cranked seats on both decks. These were supplied by Siddall and Hilton. Here is an extract from Commercial Motor of 8th December 1950- Article titled Innovation Components and Accessories “More room with less seat” is the object of the new Sidhil-Morseat, manufactured by Siddall and Hilton, Ltd.. Sowerby Bridge, Yorks. Employing a cleverly cranked frame, this service-bus seat enables two passengers to sit comfortably side by side without encroaching on each other or on the gangway. The outer half of the seat, apart from being set back, as in a normal cranked seat, is also turned slightly inward, so that the “gangway” passenger’s elbows are out of the way of the inside” passenger. A recess in the centre of the seat provides additional elbow-room, enabling both passengers to get at pockets for their fares without the usual difficulty. Further, each person enjoys the full width of backrest and the “inner” passenger can more easily leave his seat without disturbing his neighbour. With this design, the conductor can move more easily about the bus, and is able, with less difficulty, to collect the fares from the window-side passenger.
John Darwent
19/12/12 – 07:29
Siddall & Hilton are still in business today in Halifax producing wire products, hospital beds and other ancillary equipment for the healthcare industry.
Eric Bawden
03/08/13 – 14:25
Long time since I visited this site , but thanks to John Darwent for info. on BWB Craven. By this time, it had a conventional gearbox but still sounded unusual. Now another ex. Sheffield bus was WJ 9094. Any info.?
Jim Hepburn
04/08/13 – 10:40
WJ 9094 was a Leyland TD3c, fleet number 94, Cravens H31/24R. Arrived 1934, withdrawn 1941. Think chassis number was 3606.
Les Dickinson
06/08/13 – 06:05
Thanks Les about info. on TD3c WJ 9094. This bus was converted to a conventional gearbox and served with J. Laurie`s of Hamilton`s “Chieftain” buses plying between Hamilton and East Kilbride, and was not withdrawn till 1954.
Jim Hepburn
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/10/13 – 08:09
Referring to my post of 18-12-12 about the cranked seats in Sheffield PD2 No. 651, I have now had the opportunity to photograph probably the last pair of ‘Sidhil’ Morseats in captivity which are currently in Sheffield AEC/MCW ex 255, now preserved as ex-gritter G55 in the South Yorkshire Transport Museum at Aldwarke, Rotherham.These seats were the spare pair supplied with 651 and retained by Sheffield Transport Department after the bus was sold on.
John Darwent
15/10/13 – 07:08
Not quite the last set in captivity!. Doncaster 122, the beautiful AEC Regent 111/Roe restored by the late Tony Peart has these seats as well.
Andrew Charles
15/10/13 – 18:03
Splendid news Andrew, thank you for posting. Has 122 a full set, upstairs and downstairs, do you know? I wonder if any more are lurking in preservation.
Yorkshire Woollen District 1958 Leyland PD2/30 Roe H33/26RD
Sheffield buses seem to have a very keen following on the site, so this ex-pat in disguise may be of interest. Around 1970/71 Yorkshire Woollen District were experiencing acute maintenance problems resulting in severe vehicle shortages, and a number of most unlikely temporary second-hand acquisitions appeared on the Dewsbury scene. These included Bristol K’s from West Yorkshire, KSW’s from United, AEC Bridgmasters from South Wales and PD2’s, Atlanteans and Leopards from Sheffield. One of these was 3156 WE, which had been new to the Sheffield ‘C’ fleet as their 1156 in 1958. With the takeover of the wholly owned British Railways ‘C’ Fleet by the National Bus Company it passed to YWD as their 135 in 1970, in which form it is seen here at Savile Town garage in late June 1971. Renumbered 466 in 1971 it was withdrawn in 1972. Sold to North’s, the dealer, of Sherburn-in-Elmet in early 1973, they quickly sold it to Don’s of Dunmow, Essex. It was later secured for preservation and by 1997 was owned by First Mainline forming part of their heritage collection – even receiving group fleet number 30386 ! It is now part of the South Yorkshire Transport Museum collection.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
21/04/13 – 09:58
This Sheffield exile in the south has only been on 1156 once in preservation, a couple of years ago, but she was rather fine on that occasion – taking a full load from Meadowhall to the museum in Rotherham.
David Oldfield
22/04/13 – 10:21
Any idea what that is behind 1156, John? It looks suspiciously like another of the same batch from Sheffield. [Although if it’s 1162, it was delivered on it’s own in 1960 after the last of the “B” fleet Regent Vs (1325-1349). This would follow on logically – all had Roe bodies with platform doors – but it seemed strange to be separated from the other PD2s by two years.]
David Oldfield
22/04/13 – 14:36
I did not make any notes at the time, but it certainly would be another like 135. YWD had 135-140 (3156-3161 WE), and 141 (6162 WJ), as well as two ECW-bodied PD2’s, 142/143 (YWB 152/153).
John Stringer
23/04/13 – 08:06
I remember an occasion when a defect affected a Sheffield J.O.C Leyland Atlantean on the joint service 66 Sheffield to Bradford service whilst it was passing through Heckmondwike. Yorkshire Woollen supplied a change over in the guise of one of their former buses from the Roe bodied batch.
Philip Carlton
23/04/13 – 08:07
This particular vehicle didn’t seem to stay with Yorkshire Woollen very long following it’s full repaint. At fourteen years it wasn’t exactly an old bus, had YWD’s difficulties eased by 1972 or did they just run these until the COF’s expired?
Chris Barker
24/04/13 – 07:49
In August 1971 YWD undertook a major service revision (reduction) and a major extension of OMO which saw off most of the ex Sheffield buses. When I worked at Frost Hill in the Hebble coaching unit summer 1972 I would travel home to Bradford on one of the last few of these regularly, but as we took delivery of the K registered Leopards and Fleetlines, all the half cabs except the Lowlanders, PD3’s and converted PS2’s were withdrawn.
Ken Aveyard
24/04/13 – 15:15
135 is blinded for route “C”, Ravensthorpe-Dewsbury-Ossett. This route, together with “B” (which avoided Earlsheaton between Dewsbury and Ossett), became routes 46/47 under the August 1971 revisions referred to by Ken, when the ex-tramway routes became numbered instead of lettered. At the same time YWD vacated its Frost Hill, Liversedge, Depot into which Hebble – now the coach unit of the “West Riding Group” – then moved.
Leeds City Transport 1955 Leeds Titan PD2/11 Roe H33/25R
This looks like a typical view from Yorkshire but these Leeds City Transport buses are interloping in Lancashire. Taken around 1970 the two Leyland Titans are seen in Rochdale climbing up from Sudden on Manchester Road heading for the town centre. The occasion was the Trans Pennine Rally from Manchester to Harrogate. Leading is 207 (UUA 207) a PD2/11 from a batch which were reputed to be the first Titans with Pneumo-cyclic transmission. Following up is 260 (5260 NW) a later PD3/5 30-footer. Both have Roe bodies.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Philip Halstead
28/10/16 – 07:41
Philip, I can’t make out the registration of the PD3, but I’d have thought it would be 5280 NW, ex Leeds 280, which is preserved (currently by Ensign, I believe, but probably with the Mile Cross Transport Collection at the time of your photo), rather than 5260 NW, which I don’t think survived.
Trevor Leach
28/10/16 – 16:55
They may have been the first batch of Pneumocyclic Titans but the very first is Leyland bodied demonstrator NTF 9 still owned by Edward Docherty who bought it from the manufacturer for A1 service work around 1955.
Stephen Allcroft
29/10/16 – 06:16
Is the date on the photo correct? The parts of the cars that we can see look to be more 1990 than 1970.
David Hick
31/10/16 – 08:18
This post is from a print and I regret I kept no notes of when it was taken. On reflection the date is more likely late 1980’s. After enlarging the scan the PD3/5 does look the be 5260. Apologies for any confusion but relying on memory with age is a tricky business.
Philip Halstead
31/10/16 – 15:11
I wondered about the date as I remember UUA 207 being stored on Pocklington Airfield in the 1980s alongside another ex-Leeds Leyland which was being used as a mobile control room/mess room by the gliding club.
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1951 Leyland Titan PD2/12 Leyland L27/26R
On the left of this photo taken in PTE days in December 1977 is the last operational ex Todmorden JOC PD2, as Halifax 356 which had been a Driver Training bus since withdrawal from passenger service. On the right is its replacement – ex Halifax 279, a 1965 Roe bodied Leyland PD2/37. This is in its new guise as Driver Training bus T7. By this date the PTE had introduced a dedicated training bus livery. T7 was later sold to a driving school in the West Midlands. 356 was put on one side for preservation but was eventually scrapped as a lost cause, a sad loss considering what can be achieved nowadays.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
14/05/18 – 07:18
The heaters on Halifax MCW PD2s were very good for about a year. Being under the seats at floor level they sucked in lots of dust which blocked the warm air flow. It was a long job to clean them out. Just blowing the dust out with an air line covered the saloons in dust. The cleaning job was also unhealthy so nobody would do it. The old round Clayton heaters being fitted well above floor level didn’t gather much dust and remained in working order much longer. At Blackburn we used to place wet sacks over the heater unit to catch the dust when blowing it out with an airline, this was not ideal but kept some heat in the saloon during winter!
Mr Anon
17/05/18 – 07:56
The 1965 Roe bodied Leyland PD2s & the CCP registered Park Royal bodied Regent IIIs are my all time favourite Halifax D/Ds, its a great pity that no examples of either type are in running order in the UK. I did see a former Halifax Roe bodied PD2 still in its Metro training bus guise at Winkleigh a few years ago, but I could not tell which one it was. Another of the Roe bodied PD2s number 62 was put back in full Halifax green, orange & cream attire, but it did not spend long in preservation & it was exported to either the USA or Canada in the early 1980s. Does it still exist?
Andrew Spriggs
02/07/18 – 07:12
In 1974 my wife worked in the personnel dept. of the then newly formed West Yorkshire Metropolitan Transport Executive. She, they had to send a memo out to Ex Tod crews that taking their buses home at lunchtime was no longer permissible.
Geoff Bragg
05/07/18 – 06:21
Wonderful story, Geoff. Big business versus small business destroying the personal touch, as ever!
Chris Hebbron
11/07/18 – 07:17
The 1965 Roe bodied Leyland PD2s of Halifax were wonderful buses, very solid in the best Roe tradition. It is interesting to relate that a very similar batch of buses were supplied to Ashton Under Lyne in the same year & two years later Lincoln received a batch. Lincoln had received two batches of Roe bodied Atlanteans in 1964/5 & then reverted to PDs in 1967. I would say these Roe bodied PD2s were my favourite double deckers, the longer HBU registered Oldham Corporation Roe bodied PD3s of 1964 were also firm favourites, sadly one was lost when it turned over on a roundabout in Rochdale in 1967.
Andrew Spriggs
12/07/18 – 07:18
The Oldham bus which turned over was 108 HBU. It turned over in Oldham, at the bottom of West Street, after being hit by a tanker, not in Rochdale. It was operating the Rochdale to Ashton service 9.
Stephen Howarth
13/07/18 – 07:37
I drove a number of these Roe bodied PD2s whilst at Halifax when they were new, and I agree that they were in a greatly superior class to their Weymann contemporaries, except in one particular. Being a quite long legged specimen, I found that the drivers’ seats on the Roe bodies did not go back as far as those on the Weymann examples, making them less comfortable to drive.
Roger Cox
14/07/18 – 07:01
I know that Mr. Hilditch was, shall we say, a traditionalist in his views and requirements but why did he specify holes in the bonnet sides on these vehicles? It seems like a throwback to the 1940s, did they serve any practical purpose?
Chris Barker
GGH inherited this order from the previous (Leyland besotted) GM, Richard le Fevre, who, despite being on the verge of retirement, chose to saddle his successor with his Leyland legacy. Because of the extended strike at Weymann, where some of these PD2s were heled up for months, Geoffrey Hilditch managed to divert those chassis that were still accessible to Roe for bodying. The apertures in the bonnet were for access to the oil filler cap and dipstick, and this was a Leyland option that appeared on all the Halifax PD2s and PD3s.
Roger Cox
17/07/18 – 06:29
Believe me those holes are invaluable for oil checking. I have a couple of vehicles with solid sides and they are a pain. In service you needed conscientious mechanics to avoid engine seizures.
West Riding Automobile 1954 Leyland Titan PD2/22 Roe L24/26R
During the mid 1950s West Riding favoured the Leyland PD2 for its double deck requirements, taking 12 in 1953 with Roe L27/26R bodywork, and a further 10 in 1954, also with Roe lowbridge bodies, but in these the upper deck capacity was reduced to 24. The tin fronted PD2/22 was 7ft 6ins wide and had vacuum brakes. From 1955 West Riding turned to the Guy Arab with Roe bodywork and maintained its allegiance with Guy into the ill fated Wulfrunian saga. GHL 302 was delivered in November 1954 with fleet number 753, but that does not appear to be the number being carried when it was photographed in Leeds in April 1970, which looks something like 833 or 853, originally Guy Arab numbers, though the first digit is partially missing. Can anyone explain, please?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
20/01/22 – 06:48
A couple of points I’m unsure of: 1) Didn’t West Riding co-operate with Guy in the Wulfrunian project? 2) I seem to recall seeing pictures of West Riding buses in red, or was this my wild imaginings?
Chris Hebbron
21/01/22 – 06:15
West Riding had its origins in the Wakefield and District Light Railway Company formed in 1903 to build tramways centred on that town. Two years later this company was taken over by the Yorkshire (West Riding) Electric Tramways Company, itself a subsidiary of the Yorkshire Electric Tramways Construction Syndicate Ltd, which had ambitious plans, authorised in the West Riding Tramways Act of 1904, to construct an additional fifty miles of tramways. In practice most was not built and the initial Wakefield and District network formed the core of the tramway operations authorised by statute. In became apparent by the 1920s that the future of road public transport lay in the increasingly sophisticated motor bus rather than the tram, and the Yorkshire (West Riding) Electric Tramways Company formed a subsidiary, the West Riding Automobile Company to operate its bus fleet. The tram network was finally abandoned in 1932, to be taken over by buses, and accordingly the Yorkshire (West Riding) Electric Tramways Company was renamed the West Riding Automobile Company in 1935, with the subsidiary company of that name being wound up. All this forms the basis of the West Riding company’s colour schemes. The former statutory tramway services were operated by buses in the red livery, whilst the rest of the network, including the former Bullock operations purchased in 1950, ran buses in the green colour scheme. This continued up to the sale of the business to the Transport Holding Company in 1967 which then passed to the National Bus Company in 1969 and on into the aesthetically uninspiring era of Freddie Wood’s poppy red. The full history of the West Riding company’s tramway forebears may be found on the Local Transport History Library website.
Roger Cox
14/06/22 – 06:29
One of this batch of PD2/22s spent some time with Bannister T/A Isle Coaches of Owston Ferry, I believe they may have bought it via Dennis Higgs (Dealer). Can anybody tell me when it retired from West Riding and if it actually was bought by Dennis Higgs
Chris Proctor
17/06/22 – 06:10
(i) In answer to Roger’s query about the fleet number, I think the problem is simply that the camera does not take kindly to the flowery script. I have looked at a number of photos of this batch. In no case is there any mention in the text of any fleet number other than the original, and in no case can I read the fleet number on the bus unless I know what it’s supposed to be – and often not even then. This 1969 photo of GHL302 in the Transport Library (with typically wayward caption) shows it more clearly: https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/ (ii) The same photo also shows an interesting feature of the bodywork. Normally Roe lowbridge bodies were built with equal depth windows all round on both decks. But here, and on the subsequent Guy Arabs, the lower-deck windows were deeper on the nearside than on the offside. This is quite a logical thing to do with the lowbridge layout, because of the intrusion of the sunken offside gangway into the lower saloon. But as far as I’m aware, Roe only did it for West Riding. (iii) Chris asked about the Wulfrunian. The answer is that West Riding not only collaborated on the project, they inspired it. The Wulfrunian was developed at West Riding’s request.
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
When I started at Smiths Coaches, Reading, in May 1964 we had 4 batches of double-deckers and a solitary unroofed tree-lopper. More on the others later, but JUG 623 was one of half a dozen ex-Leeds Corporation Leyland PD1s dating from 1946 but with 1945 chassis numbers—so only just postwar. They were used on contracts carrying school kids, AWRE Aldermaston employees and the 95% Irish workforce building the Road Research Laboratory at Crowthorne. Although the Guv’nor, Alf Smith, once told me he thought the JUGs had been a “bad buy”, I couldn’t have agreed less. The perfectly-proportioned Roe bodies were getting a bit rattily round the window frames but were thoroughly sound and the safety staircase was ideal for youngsters; the steering was relatively light with no hint of stiffness, and it self-centred nicely, never needing correction on uneven country roads; the vacuum brakes were gentle but well up to the job; the clutches were pretty judder-free and the driving position was very comfortable. Most of the other younger drivers disliked them: the smallish 7.4-litre engine had to be worked hard, the noise in the cab was deafening, and the heavy flywheel, unforgiving constant-mesh gearbox and hard-to-use clutch stop made gear changing a little challenging for the novice. They were geared to do about 37mph in top at 1,800rpm, so if you were in a contract convoy on a narrow road you frustrated the Reliance driver behind you. The JUGs had illuminated “Limited Stop” boxes at the front, which helped you to fool yourself into thinking you were doing 60. “My” bus for a long time was JUG 630, of which a photo by and by. How I wish I’d made some effort to save it from scrap.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Thompson
I agree fully Ian that the honourable Mr. Smith was way off the mark altogether. As for your complimentary remarks about the PD1s, well, they could easily have been written by me to the last letter. The PD1 was a totally predictable and wholly reliable vehicle which was a tribute to the manufacturer – in my fairly wide experience it had no vices at all. I recall when they were new – the six Samuel Ledgard ones, JUM 373 – 8, the engines did admittedly have a very heavy “diesel knock” but I think there were two reasons for this. Firstly, I imagine that poor quality fuel may well have been a factor, but more importantly the vast difference in sound effects from the silky smooth pre-war 8.6 litre engine was bound to arouse surprise. This said, however, I found that as the engines became better tuned most of the PD1s (and PS1s) began to run very smoothly and acceptably quietly. Certainly all the PD/PS1s we had at Ledgard’s ran splendidly and, despite the slightly small engines, put up a very creditable performance on our extremely busy routes. When the Firm sold to THC (West Yorkshire) in 1967 many were twenty years old and without a squeak or rattle in their bodywork, whether by Leyland (and Alexander or Salmesbury under contract) ECW or BBW. One Saturday afternoon, at the start of a late turn, I suffered a rear puncture with one of the Mark V Regents. The fitter arrived at White Cross (Harry Ramsden’s famous fish shop) very apologetic with JUM 376 and promised to return the Regent suitably re-shod within the hour – dear old Bert knew well of my enthusiasm and was not surprised when I said “leave this one on please until the end of the night – I love it.” So I enjoyed a whole late turn listening to the glorious melodious tones of the pre-war designed gearbox and particularly quiet and powerful engine – I remain surprised though to this day that the keen management didn’t demand to know, on Monday, why I had roamed happily around all evening on a busy Saturday, or any other day, with 58 seats instead of the prescribed 65 !! Very happy days – if only I could do it all again. By the way – this is in no way any reflection on the worthy AEC Mk V which received an unexpected Saturday evening in “watching the telly !!
Chris Youhill
I’m glad that you liked the PD1s, Chris! On the topic of combustion noise I’d like to add that–probably because of their numerous visits to the workshop over their 24-year life–no two Smith’s JUG-registered PD1s sounded the same, though when you took your foot off the throttle and the pneumatic governor butterfly closed you had blissful combustion silence and a lovely high-pitched whistle. Nor was there any engine vibration at all. I still wish that Leyland had given them a five-speed box…
Ian Thompson
What a fine idea Ian – a five speed gearbox would have been quite an asset. Two things spring to mind though – five speed (or four speed plus overdrive) were fairly uncommon in PD1 days, and although I’m not an engineer it is possible that there may have been torque difficulties ?? By the way, I’m just wiping the egg off my face after enthusing about the beautiful tones of the PREWAR designed gearbox – the identical symphony led me to believe that this was the case. I’ve just consulted “The Leyland Bus” by Doug Jack and find that the box was actually developed for the new model. The high pitched whistle which you remember was magical wasn’t it ?? In the few weeks while I was waiting to upgrade my single deck licence a really splendid mature driver at our depot gave me constant instruction on his theory that the whistle was a completely reliable aid to immaculate gear changing – I was taught to recognise from the downward change of note as the engine slowed so as to be able to quietly engage the next gear “like putting a knife into butter.” Despite this one to one tuition I kept telling him that I was still terrified of making a hash of it. The Ministry examiner at the time was a most frightening man to the extent that if “her indoors” had not boiled his eggs to perfection that morning, then failure for even tinkling a gear was a certainty. I can still remember dear Norman’s constant reassurances – “Oh I’m sure you’re worrying unduly.” – He was right, bless him, and I’ll never forget the kindness of such genuine guys – the World is short of them !!
Chris Youhill
This reminds me of very youthful travel on Yorkshire Traction. Unlike the Doncaster Daimler CVD6’s which had a certain style (changing down for deceleration on a bend with a pre-selector was interesting: it sometimes felt as if the engine was trying to get upstairs) the Tracky Leylands struggled: they were driven with short bursts of “acceleration” and would then see how far they could get before the next one. On the only hills- railway bridges- it was an early lesson in how far you could labour a diesel engine without stalling or changing down. I only remember that they had early HE registrations and one may have been no 722. Were they PD1’s? The idea of five speeds is amazing: one seemed too much.
Joe
My word Joe, what a commendable memory you have !! The first postwar Leylands for “Tracky” were five handsome PD1s with Roe bodies. They were numbers 722 – 726, AHE 159 – 163.
Chris Youhill
One of Tracky’s PD1/Roe still exists AHE163 The bus is privately owned and lives in the Lincolnshire Vintage Vehicle Museum. There are several shots of it on the Society web sitehere.
Chris Hough
The Smiths buses would come to our school and take the kids doing their swimming lessons for the test- whatever it was called -probably “Swimming Proficiency”- from memory they were all a sort of battleship grey- extremely drab looking. I think by my time they were AEC Regent IIIs from Oxford (COMS) plus a solitary RT- RT45 as the AWRE bought their own fleet of Regent Vs so the Smith’s fleet was reduced, accordingly. I didn’t go swimming, so I never travelled on these buses. When I was younger I can remember that on our bus route- Emmer Green-Chalgrove Way- which usually had the RCT PRV Regent IIIs- I was always pleased if I saw No 1 or No 100 (kids are sometimes easily pleased!) from time to time a Smith’s utility Bedford OB would arrive with “Relief” showing as its destination. As kids we found these buses definitely infra dig and felt cheated of the upper deck! That was my experience of Smith’s other than the odd trip out on one of their many Bedford coaches.
Nick Ratnieks
Nick: I don’t think Smith’s ever regularly ran buses in battleship grey. I can only ever remember blue and deep orange (their normal livery for both buses and coaches) and from about 1966-7 onwards an uninspiring overall red for the ex-Rhondda Regent IIIs and ex-South Wales Regent Vs. The OFC-registered 1949 Oxford Regent III-Weymanns (of which a photo soon) were always in blue and orange—at least in my day. Despite their poorish visibility and mediocre steering I too had a soft spot for the musical little Bedford OBs, the last of which must have gone by about 1967, but as for the SBs, and in particular the Super Vega-bodied ones—well, I’d better shut up before I lose a lot of friends.
Ian Thompson
I remember those JUG Leylands very well as I took my test on JUG 628 in May 1965 at Smiths Coaches of Reading, I started on a Monday and spent two days driving around the city, then on Weds as I arrived at 8am I was called into the time box at the depot entrance and told that a test was available at 10 30am that morning, in those days the ministry boys came to your depot and Smiths had a man licenced to undertake tests, my instructor felt I was ready so I was told to go and have a cup of tea and read the Highway Code. At 10 20am I reported back to the time box and was told not to mess it up as they were short of drivers and if I passed they had a job needing covering so of I went and at 11 30am I returned with a little bit of paper in my hand saying I had passed, my first job of the day was to Savill Gardens near Egham Surrey I had no idea where it was but off I went and found it first time during the journey the teacher remarked what a smooth journey it was and had I been driving long I replied about two hours to which she burst out laughing, I was not joking, My first coach was ORD 250 a Bedford SB/Duple C41F. And yes those old Leylands of Smiths were ………. to drive and don’t let anyone kid you otherwise, its a pity modern bus operators don’t keep one so that some of their so called drivers can spend a week on one and then they might learn how to drive those tin boxes they call buses properly I think those VOSA boys today will go mad when they read this who cares I’m now retired.
Alan Kinge
21/07/11 – 07:39
Back in 1961 I was employed as a summer hand driver at the Crosville depot Pwllheli. My first trip as a driver, a newly qualified one at that, was to drive the 10:45 summer through service from Pwllheli to Barmouth using a rather tired Leland PD1 decker, possibly one carrying the fleet number DTE 547, usually allocated to the Nefyn outstation. When I climbed into the hot cab a feeling of great trepidation and apprehension descended upon the greenhorn driver, the road from Maentwrog to Barmouth is pretty grim today but it was horrendous back in the late 50’s early 60’s. All bends and sharp turns, narrow with loads of jagged rocks jutting out ready to rip the guts out of nearside panels. It was a heavily loaded service, not with through passengers but with short hop passengers, they were on and off more or less between every stage. Relatively few folk were car owners in those days. The small less than 8 litre power plant was less than adequate on the pull, but down hill progress was good. The ECW body work creaked and groaned and there was a decided fore and aft lurching of the body as well as a gentle sway. Noise levels in the cab were tolerably acceptable, though not as pleasing as what pervaded in the cab of a PD2. The trip went well and I managed to return to base with the decker intact and scratch free. The Traffic Inspector D.S.Davies walked round the vehicle and gave me the thumbs up. Confession did manage a small scrape to a lower nearside panel on the following day.
Evan Herbert
14/02/17 – 05:44
Ian Thompson. You may well be right about the colour of the Smith’s buses. I can see them in my memory as grey but I could be mixing up the colour with some industrial buses that chugged around. The buses pulled up every week to take those doing their swimming lessons off to the Arthur Hill Swimming Pool. Our classroom looked out on to the Hemdean Road- the buses were visible to all in the class- but my memory may be failing me!
Nick Ratnieks
17/02/17 – 06:40
I remember watching Tomorrows World on BBC 1 in the early seventies and seeing one of this batch being `re righted` using the newly developed air bag technique. As a very keen enthusiast of the Lincoln Corporation PD1/Roe examples I was horrified to see it on its side ! I did manage to acquire Yorkshire Traction 726 much later however.
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1949 Leyland PD1 Roe H?R Seen on 25 June 1958 at the North Landing terminus of route 31 from Bridlington are these classic members of the East Yorkshire fleet. At that time, I remember them as regular performers both on the North Landing service and the then separate service to the Lighthouse. As a visitor from Nottingham, holidaying at Flamborough, I was intrigued by the destination screen arrangement, with what looks like an additional foothold in the middle of the radiator, together with the grab handle to the bottom left of the blind box, to help the conductor reach the board to flip it over. On the nearside shot, the additional foothold and grab handle can also be seen. Quite precarious! What a pity one of this class was never preserved. The other unusual aspect to me of East Yorkshire, apart of course from the Beverley Bar roof, was the Willebrew ticket system, the like of which I had never seen before. It all added to the impression of being on holiday in a different world and certainly left a lasting impression. Other vehicles in the above shots are top right JAT 439 – 471 and the side view is of JRH 991 – 518 both PD1s
Interesting vehicles with a system the ‘elf & safety’ folk would have a heart attack over nowadays! Was the dome-like roof replicated inside as well, or was that flat?
Chris Hebbron
Only the heads of those who didn’t duck!
David Oldfield
Not sure about the foot hole in the middle of the radiator, I would of thought that could get quite hot after a run from Hull to Scarborough or did EYMS supply asbestos lined shoes to their conductors
Trevor
These were among the most beautiful and characterful vehicles of their time, and rank very highly on my personal list of favourites. The interior upper saloon contour was identical to the “Beverley Bar” exterior. The Health and Safety comments are valid of course, but pale into insignificance in comparison with the metal “bible” displays common amongst the Tilling Group operators before the War, where the driver or conductor had to climb onto a slippery metal step while hoisting the entire heavy metal assembly up aloft !! These beloved East Yorkshire vehicles had another unusual feature within – the lovely Roe wooden window frames were not stained and varnished, as was the norm elsewhere, but were painted a pleasing mid blue in durable gloss. On the rear platform wall near the stairs was another delightful anomaly presumably caused by a temporary shortage of transfers. A warning notice, about a foot square, in gold leaf warned alighting passengers to :- WAIT until the bus STOPSOn quite a few vehicles this read “Wait until the COACH stops” – a kind of unintentional “tongue in cheek” accolade to the superior quality of these fine machines perhaps ??
Chris Youhill
Barton Transport of Nottingham acquired one of these, JAT 410, in the late 1950s or early 1960s. I think it was Barton running number 951. This may seem a very high number for a 1946 vehicle, but Bartons always numbered their vehicles strictly according to the date of acquisition, with no attempt to allocate batches of numbers to particular types. Hence the famous 1948 front entrance lowbridge Duple PD1s were in the 400 and 500 series. When they later acquired some ex-LT RTLs they were in the 1000 series.
Stephen Ford
Wonderful, evocative photographs! As a kid, whenever we went into York City centre, I would be looking out hoping to see one of these great vehicles on the 44/45/46 routes between Leeds and Bridlington or Hull – a rare treat, unfortunately, because it was a joint service with West Yorkshire, and usually the EYMS buses were single-deckers any way. Once we managed to travel on one on a trip to Bridlington but my dad insisted on sitting downstairs, so I never got to see the interior of a Beverly Bar roof. Their magnificent indigo and primrose livery was complimented by the lovely Leyland engine silky tickover. They had beautiful blue upholstery and cream stanchions which gave them an extra air of superiority. We’d got to Rougier Street to catch the Bridlington bus on a typically raucous York-West Yorkshire Bristol K5G still sporting a ‘bible’ metal indicator, (called a ‘flap board’ at York, and thanks, Chris for reminding me of them), so the comparison between the two vehicles was pretty one-sided. As Bob points out, another novelty was getting a Willebrew ticket; operationally, the system itself was cumbersome and laborious, but the tickets were fascinating for a young child to examine.
Roy Burke
Unlike Roy I have managed a ride on the preserved Roe bodied AEC Regent V WAT652 The overall effect was of entering a gothic church with a definite arching to the roof line I have also had a ride on East Yorkshire’s own Willowbrook bodied AEC where the interior roof line was not so pronounced However both buses were different to the norm. As well as the Beverly Bar roofed fleet EYMS also ran a fleet of standard lowbridge buses which ran in Hull and were not allowed under the Bar.
Chris Hough
I too remember the EYMS PD1s with great affection. The memory is made more vivid by Chris`s description of the mid blue painted internal window framing. I remember them so well as fast, smooth buses, which prompted me in previous posts to quote them in the “rough PD1 discussions” of a week or so ago! My main experience of them was on the Bridlington to Hornsea service, via Barmston, Beeford and Atwick, when we had our Skipsea “Bradford Tram” bungalow. It was after one of these visits to Skipsea, about 1950, when we were returning from Brid. on the Leeds service. Memory of the Brid to Leeds section has eroded away, but the York (Rougier Street) to Leeds section is so vivid! The (West Yorkshire RCC) bus failed, and we were transferred to a highbridge York West Yorkshire Bristol GO5G! I can still hear every grunt of the gearbox, and every growl of the 5LW as we (slowly) made our way through Tadcaster, and back to Leeds Wellington Street. Just one of those indelible memories as a youngster, which cemented my transport interests, and firmed up for ever my love of Bristol buses of that era!
John Whitaker
I’ve always been puzzled about the Beverley Bar roof. The inward taper to the upperworks I can understand, to enable the windows and sides of the roof to clear the sides of the arch, but why was it necessary to extend the roof upwards as well? And on these PD1s there is no discernable taper to the windows at all, just a domed roof.
Peter Williamson
Gosh, John, York to Leeds in a Y-WY GO5G! No wonder you remember that; 1935 or 1937 vintage, complete with a ‘flap board’ indicator, and, in around 1950, close to its withdrawal date. WY and Y-WY had a ‘contra-mileage’ arrangement under which, at weekends mainly, WY would use Y-WY vehicles to balance the mileage that WY vehicles had operated during the week on such things as school or works specials. I have a photo of a Y-WY K5G, (highbridge of course) used on service 43 to Scarborough; if you found the going to Leeds slow, imagine how a fully-loaded 5LW-engined double-decker coped with Whitwell. Incidentally, as a conductor with Y-WY in 1962 or 1963, I was once asked to stay on after finishing my shift to operate a late bus to Hull because the East Yorkshire vehicle, (I think they were then using AEC Bridgemasters), had broken down in Leeds. As it happens, they got it running again, so I didn’t get my overtime.
Roy Burke
Some optical illusions here Peter which can I hope be briefly explained. The reason why there was no “inward taper” on the PD1 windows is that the vehicles were only 7’6″ wide – I think the angle in the windows became necessary with 8’0″ buses later. Also I’m sure that the upper edges of the windows were only at the height normally found in “lowbridge” buses, and accordingly the roof was not actually extended upwards but was merely at standard “highbridge” level for passenger headroom purposes. This is a most fascinating discussion, and I’d love to have been a fly on the wall when EYMS initially approached bodybuilders with these special requirements – I daresay calendars were hastily scanned to ensure that it wasn’t April 1st !!
Chris Youhill
Yes Roy, the memory of the “G” highbridge ride is really vivid… it was one of the YG batch. I have to admit being a real West Yorkshire fan of those days, much as I also loved East Yorkshire, because the latter were different. Tilling fascination is something else! Another vivid memory of the Leeds to Bridlington route was the regular use of pre war L types, and the notice on Garrowby Hill “West Yorkshire Road Car Co” DRIVERS ARE INSTRUCTED TO ENGAGE LOW GEAR. Or was it “Requested”? I tended to lose interest in West Yorkshire after the 1954 renumbering, it being the pre 1950 types which I loved most, and it seems just like yesterday that I rode on Gs on the Thornton Road routes in Bradford, to Denholm and Keighley, where they competed with our beloved BCPT trolleybuses! Memories of conductors licking their indelible pencils, stacks of bible boards in the green hut in Chester Street, and the requests for “smokers to occupy rear seats”, and “Please tender exact fare and state destination”. The most evocative sound of all, the guttural growl of a 5LW just starting up, the inability for a clean gear change (always a grinding sound!) and drivers with their cotton summer dust coats. Wonderful memories!
John Whitaker
Yes John, I well remember the transfers in the prewar vehicles. I recall that the smoking one was on four lines thus :- SMOKERS ARE REQUESTED TO OCCUPY REAR SEATSAnother fabulous transfer used to fascinate me too – it was a transparent one, small and rectangular, which was applied to the insides of the windows and read :- WILFUL DAMAGE TO SEATS, FITTINGS ETC The Company will press for heaviest penalties against offenders
Chris Youhill
I DO remember the “wilful damage” transfers!! How evocative is that??!! Also the moquette covered box adjacent to the single seat over the wheel arch on the Js and pre-war Ls! Super comments too from you and Richard about the post war Ls. I remember being overwhelmed (like you) by the sheer modernity of the clean lines of post war ECW bodies when they first appeared, contrasting so strongly with the pre war “roundness”. Pre war ECW and Roe bodies were almost “Beverley Bar” with their domed roofs in highbridge form. Perhaps we should transfer this topic away from EYMS into a more WYRCC subject heading!
John Whitaker
I apologise if some of us are turning this lovely posting about EYMS PD1s into a discussion on West Yorkshire instead, However, recalling John’s and Chris’s comments on notices, I rather think the wording on the notice at Garrowby Hill was ‘instructed’. The ‘smoking’ notice I particularly remember on WY’s JO5Gs, but didn’t they also have a small plastic label on the backs of the front rows of seats with the same request instead of an ashtray? I was intrigued by John’s recollection that the GO5G he rode on to Leeds was a YG series; my own fleet list mentions 1935 AWW vehicles, (Y316-330) and 1937 BWT vehicles, (Y343-346), but the only record I have of Y-WY YG-registered vehicles, (apart from some Dennis Lancets), is of 3 lowbridge GO5Gs that were bought new from WY but sold back after only about seven months in 1935. Well, I’ve been wrong before! Like you, John, I find the sound of a 5LW most evocative. Y-WY certainly got its money’s worth out of them. Some of the 1939 batch of K5Gs, (admittedly they were rebuilt and re-registered), were still in service very nearly 30 years later.
Roy Burke
The latter one, I think was a Tilling or THC notice as I don’t recall seeing it on BET group vehicles. Midland General had it on all their vehicles and on double deckers also had: IN THE INTEREST OF OTHER PASSENGERS, WORKMEN ARE RESPECTFULLY REQUESTED TO TRAVEL IN THE UPPER SALOON Presumably this was because the lower saloon seats were moquette whilst the upper deck seats were leather and easier to wipe clean after dirty workmen! In mining areas it was common for pitmen to travel to and from work in their ‘grime’ as many mines did not have pit-head baths until after they were nationalised. Another notice I remember was: SPITTING STRICTLY PROHIBITED which seems inconceivable nowadays but was also aimed at miners, many of whom used to chew tobacco rather than smoking it!
Chris Barker
31/01/11
Hi Roy Sorry about the YG/AWW. My mistake…I was dreaming about the main fleet G05Gs based at Bradford, which carried YG registrations.!! Old age creeping in!
John Whitaker
31/01/11
“No Spitting” was not just aimed at miners, and not at their tobacco which was only a substitute for woodies down the pit. Firstly, they and anyone living in the industrial atmosphere were prone to chronic respiratory problems which often meant the need to clear the airways: then it was felt that such clearance- by anyone- could spread TB. Those who remember those days find today’s macho spitting a bit disturbing. Because of their numbers and shift patterns, miners often had “special” buses, another interesting source of vintage transport.
Joe
31/01/11 – 15:07
Regarding the prohibition of spitting This brings to mind the verse by I think Spike Milligan There was a man from Dargeeling who took a bus to Ealing It said by the door do not spit on the floor So he carefully spat on the ceiling!
Chris Hough
31/01/11 – 20:19
With regard to “No Spitting”, as I recall, Hull Corporation buses carried the notice “Do Not Spit – Penalty £5”. I wonder how many £5’s were collected?
Keith Easton
01/02/11 – 05:10
You’ve beaten me to it Chris with your response to Peter’s Gothic roof question! You are absolutely correct about the buses being to standard highbridge height and layout, but with the upper deck windows set lower – in effect in the lowbridge position. Also the panel work between decks is of shallower, lowbridge proportions. Construction & Use Regulations stipulated a minimum gangway height for each deck, so the central gangway upstairs would have had to comply with this just as on any other double-decker, whether highbridge, lowbridge, Lodekka et al. Although the low set windows must have had an impact on the view from the top deck, it would have been a much easier solution for the coachbuilder, rather than setting the windows in their normal highbridge position and then trying to mould the glass into that classic Gothic shape! As Roy says, very evocative pictures indeed. As youngsters, my brothers and I often visited Bridlington and Flamborough in the family Morris Minor. If we were lucky we would catch sight of a pointy-roofed bus or two around Driffield, which meant that the sea wasn’t too far away. Our favourites were the PD2/Roe ‘LAT’ registered batch – some of which crooned their way around Brid bound for the exotic-sounding ‘Belvedere’. Roe bodies of that era were always beautifully proportioned, but I must admit to feeling that the extra width of the eight-footers somehow added a fullness to the design. The Beverley Bar roof was just the icing on the cake.
Brendan Smith
01/02/11 – 05:13
I don’t think £5 for spitting was very good value for money. If I had had money to waste in those days (and I must say that I never did!) I would have pulled the communication cord and stopped an express : “Penalty for improper use £5”!
Stephen Ford
01/02/11 – 15:21
Well said Stephen – I always admire a man prepared to haggle honourably for a genuine bargain !!
Chris Youhill
02/02/11 – 06:29
I can recall seeing signs that said, “Penalty for spitting – 40/-” which is strange wording; nobody ever sold me anything saying, “That’ll be 40 shillings please”. Maybe the folk who lived locally were poorer than those living in the £5 ones!
Chris Hebbron
02/02/11 – 10:00
Oh dear, this is getting silly! However, as we seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel somewhat, might I ask others for an explanation of the old notice in BR train toilets: ‘Gentlemen Lift The Seat’. Was this a request or a definition of a gentleman?
Roy Burke
02/02/11 – 20:57
The first sentence I ever read was “MIND YOUR HEAD”, found in all Reading d/ds until the Crossleys arrived with their stodgy “Caution: low roof”, but the one that tickled me most was “Do not speak to the man at the wheel whilst car is in motion”, seen in the normal-control front-entrance Guy B & BA single-deckers of 1926-30. Two of them had their 4-cylinder petrol engines replaced by AEC 4-cylinder oilers, with oversized-looking AEC radiators to match. The last were withdrawn in 1947. “Spitting prohibited” and “Please retain ticket for fare paid” afforded more reading practice.
Ian Thompson
03/02/11 – 20:10
The remark about “Gentlemen lift the seat” reminded me of a public convenience in my home area which had the sign “Gentlemen adjust your dress” – possibly leading to confusion as to which door one had entered or what one should be wearing. When this convenience was demolished a few years ago, the back wall adjoining another building was left intact, complete with this sign on the white tiling for all to see! (The “equipment” had been removed). And to bring this back to what this site is all about, this facility was adjacent to the White House pub, Milton in Portsmouth, which was a significant timing point and a short-turn destination for some routes. In the final trolleybus days, the BUT’s would run on the 5/6 from Dockyard through to Cosham Red Lion. But those lovely “Leylandised Crossleys” (ie the Crossley bodied DD42/7s with Leyland TD4 engines) would run short workings from the Dockyard and turn at Milton White House. The full route also passed the Green Lane terminus of other t/b routes (7/8, 11/12), so there were some colourful destinations (Red Lion, Green Lane, White House). And why ever did Portsmouth change the Dockyard destination to “The Hard Interchange”? OK, I know the street is called “The Hard”, and the interchange was for buses, trains and ferries, but who wants to undertake a “hard interchange” – perhaps it was difficult after all. Anyway, these days it’s called “Gunwharf Quays” but the buses are still in more or less the same place. Pity there are no Crossleys though. Portsmouth also had “spitting prohibited” on both decks of older vehicles, blue-edged gold lettering, with the additional wording “no smoking” on the lower deck.
Michael Hampton
03/02/11 – 20:42
With regard to destination indicators, I’m reliably informed that Maidstone trolleybuses carried the destination “Loose Womens’s Institute”! The terminus was situated in the area of Maidstone known as Loose.
Keith Easton
04/02/11 – 06:55
I think there is probably scope for an article on unusual, eccentric or amusing destination displays. Was Westward Ho! (Southern National) the only one that included an exclamation mark?
Stephen Ford
07/02/11 – 05:33
I have been researching this fleet, largely because I have loads of nostalgia for EYMS in the period 1946-1963. I have used the excellent East Yorkshire site fleet list, to gain a list for this period, but would love to know which of the TD4/5s were rebodied post war, with ECW Beverley Bar type bodies. Most grateful, if anyone can answer, and thanks in anticipation.
John Whitaker
07/02/11 – 05:43
I have managed to find a few prints of 1960s photos taken with a plastic Brownie camera. The location is Limekiln Lane which was the terminus for the EYMS Bridlington Route from Belvedere South Side Terminus to the North Sands (ie Limekiln lane- which was close to a Caravan site.
I took the above rear view shot in spring 1964 of JAT 462 fleet no 494 for the roof profile as so few of this view existed, it was a 1950 Leyland Titan PD1A H28/26R. I had heard that these Leylands were due to be disposed of within a short time so recorded them in Bridlington not far from my home – note the East Yorkshire Bus Stop sign and old cast iron bus shelter – boy did you need a shelter near the cliff top.
Ian Gibbs
07/02/11 – 09:05
After a quick look John I’ve found that the ECW rebodying of the TD4s/TD5s took place in 1948, creating some of the most fascinating vehicles ever. Those involved were :- 358/365/366/368/372/374/375/376/377/378/380/381/382/383/384. When I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 we used to go into Hull on Friday and Saturday nights and a duplicate was always provided on the last bus to Withernsea – it was invariably one of the rebodies to my delight. A most fascinating performance occurred on this journey. As each village was reached, and many people alighted, a rapid census of both buses would be carried out and as soon as the total could be accommodated on one vehicle a reshuffle was ordered, almost invariably at Keyingham, and the rebodied TD would return empty to its stable at 252 Anlaby Road while the service bus scurried eastwards to Withernsea Depot. Oh to go back to those happy days !!
Chris Youhill
07/02/11 – 09:07
Ian, a lovely classic picture at Limekiln Lane – and I’d completely forgotten, or perhaps never noticed, that the stop plate is marked “FARE STAGE”
Chris Youhill
07/02/11 – 20:07
Thanks Chris for the ECW rebody detail of EYMS TD4/5s. I remember them so well, and the super sedate smooth sound as they meandered from Ulrome to Bridlington. They were not the regulars on this route in my time, but they did come to Brid, I think direct from Hull via Skirlaugh, Leven and Beeford. I presume that other TD4s gave up their units for the Beadle rebuild coaches. What surprises me a bit is that more of the ECW Titans succumbed to rebodying than did the Brush variety. Perhaps ECW built to a price for the (unusual) double deck Federation style. My childhood trademarks for EYMS were dds with 3 windows up front on the top deck, and sds with oval rear windows!
John Whitaker
07/02/11 – 21:34
Further to the EYMS TD5 rebodies, which Chris remembers so well from the passenger shuffling occurrences (!) can anyone recall any other highbridge ECW rebodying of Titans in the TD3-7 range? There must have been a BET contract, as Ribble, East Kent and others received lowbridge bodies on TD4/5 chassis. I presume that all East Yorkshire`s Arab 1 and 11s were rebodied, all by Roe. The photo of the PD1A at Limekiln Lane is very evocative. Is it not on the old White Bus route out of town? I remember well going past the caravan park on White Bus Bedford OWBs, and we had a holiday there in 1964, probably just at the same time as the photo of the PD1A was taken. I am getting to like East Yorkshire more and more!
John Whitaker
08/02/11 – 05:20
Following Chris Youhill’s interest in that EYMS -Bus Stop -Fare Stage sign. Here is a picture of an interesting relic from the Golden Days of Bus Services
Ian Gibbs
08/02/11 – 05:25
I Believe that both White Bus and Eat Yorkshire operated services via Limekiln Lane to Flamborough. The acquired routes were soon assimilated to EYMS licences BE3/39 and BE3/40. By the way, John, East Yorkshire is fantastic. I have a full fleet list if you would like one. You can contact me via the website.
Keith Easton
08/02/11 – 05:27
I have always been fascinated by this bus. I am getting married this year and would love to use this bus. My brother is coming over from America and my Dad has always has old cars and buses. So I would like to have this bus on my wedding day and surprise them all. If you could let me know where I can talk to someone about this I would be so grateful saw this bus at Pocklington Thoroughbred Car Club rally this year. Thank you so much.
Carol Eveson
08/02/11 – 05:29
Me too John, for it’s fascinating history and the fact that it’s still very much in business today but I do worry about what will happen to it when Peter Shipp decides to retire!
Chris Barker
08/02/11 – 09:01
Hello Keith. Yes, I would love a full EYMS fleet list, as it would save me going through each individual number on the website fleet list. I only need to go as far as 1963 though, if that makes it easier. Many thanks
John Whitaker
Keith if you mail it to me I will pass it on I have a feeling that other people may be interested, I am for one.
Peter
10/04/11 – 05:00
Reading these East Yorkshire postings relating to the Leyland PD1’s has brought back some wonderful memories of holidays at the seaside in the 1950’s and early 60’s, when these buses were a constant source of fascination to me as they ambled around Bridlington; I seem to recall them showing “Old Town’ as one particular destination on the blinds, which was presumably the area around the harbour? Brendan Smith’s recollection of looking out for the sight of a “pointy-roofed bus’ around Driffield, and thus knowing the sea wasn’t that far away, was particularly poignant. We used to invariably stop at a cafe near Driffield on our way to the coast, I think it might have been called “The Four Winds’, and sitting there drinking tea, with one eye on the bucket and spade and desperate for the sight of an East Yorkshire “decker, is a very strong childhood memory. I have a feeling that the prominent windsock at the airfield, which was visible from the cafe windows, might well have been responsible for the name of the cafe! Likewise Ian Gibbs’ classic rear end shot of 494 at Limekiln Lane is very evocative of caravan holidays at Bridlington back in that era. My father once left the family camera, an old Agfa, on an upstairs seat at the terminus at this spot, and the bus had headed back into Bridlington before he’d realised his mistake. Sure enough, he found it lying right where he’d left it some time later after the vehicle had completed the round trip and arrived back at Limekiln Lane again. Those full-fronted PD2’s in the yellow and light blue livery running between Hull and Scarborough were something to behold as well, the “Beverley Bar’ roof looked even more striking on these vehicles, I thought. The sight of these remarkable machines trundling along the main road past the Butlins holiday camp at Filey, with all its flags flapping in the breeze, is an abiding holiday memory that will be with me forever.
Dave Careless
19/04/11 – 09:00
Thanks Dave for even more fascinating memories of a wonderful era in the greater Bridlington era. Two of your points are of particular interest. Firstly “Old Town” was actually nothing to do with the resort or the harbour – it referred, and still does, to the ancient settlement of “Burlington” surrounding the beautiful Priory Church and the Market Place and “Old Town” High Street. One of Williamson’s two town services terminated there in the Market Place and the fixed destination blind read “OLD TOWN and THE QUAY” – “The Quay” referring to the centre of modern Bridlington (Chapel Street). For some inexplicable reason the destination blind for the other service had the termini the other way round and read “THE QUAY and QUEENSGATE.” The Four Winds cafe was indeed right opposite RAF Driffield, later an Army Camp, and I’m sure still exists as a restaurant of some kind.
Chris Youhill
21/04/11 – 06:02
Thanks, Chris, for finally explaining where “Old Town” is in Bridlington, it only took me fifty plus years to get that straight, but as they say, good things come to those who wait!! I do have a couple of photos in my collection of a Bristol K and an L, both bodied by East Lancs at Bridlington, posed in front of the historic Bayle Gate, before setting out for Rotherham on delivery; presumably, this would be well into the “Old Town” area. Incidentally, not sure how widely known it is, but that Bridlington body building works also built school furniture as a sideline, and in fact built a pantechnicon body on an old ex-Rotherham Bristol chassis in which to deliver the desks and cupboards! I have a vague recollection of staying in a bed and breakfast at Bridlington not far from the East Yorkshire garage, and seem to recall it was on a road leading away from the seafront south of the harbour and the main part of town. Is this right, or have I got it all completely jumbled up in the mists of time?
Dave Careless
21/04/11 – 11:45
Thanks Dave for even more fascinating Bridlington history and, while I was aware of the East Lancashire “overflow” production (wasn’t it on the former RAF Carnaby airfield ??) I certainly knew nothing of school cupboards and desks. Similarly a removal firm in York, Whitby C. Oliver, once made a large van from a York-West Yorkshire Bristol J5G !! I’m afraid the mists of time have still to clear for you – aren’t we all in the same boat eh ?? – as the East Yorkshire garage was north of the town, just above Queensgate and below the Priory Church. The only depot I can think of in a road such as you describe for your bed and breakfast would be the Boddy’s one in Horsforth Avenue. Hope this helps rather than hinders !!
Chris Youhill
21/04/11 – 20:25
A big help Chris, no question, so thanks again. At least now I can finally put the thought that I’d once stayed in a guest house close by the Bridlington garage directly into the recycling bin, where it so obviously belongs! Perhaps it was in fact Boddy’s premises that I’d seen after all; at least I got that cafe opposite the airfield at Driffield right!! It seems as if I’ve been thinking about little else than those “Beverley Bar” buses ever since I read the piece on the East Yorkshire PD1’s and the subsequent comments, a wonderful trip down memory lane. There’s no doubt it’s because those elegant vehicles are synonymous with childhood holidays at the seaside that makes the memories of them so special. Just looking at photographs of them conjures up recollections of the harbour and the boat trips to Flamborough Head, the amusement arcades, and the obligatory trip round the lifeboat shed! But above all it was the buses; another wonderful sight was the cavalcade of United buses on the Scarborough sea-front, and at the North Sands terminus at Corner Cafe, but even that still didn’t quite measure up to the look and sound of those remarkable “pointy roofed” machines toiling around Bridlington all those years ago.
Dave Careless
20/09/11 – 14:42
I was a summer conductor on EYMS in Bridlington whilst I was at Hull University. Did my time in the summers 1960 to 1963. Mostly we “students” were assigned to town services. Spending the summer with £5 of pennies in a leather sack slung round one’s neck, a ticket machine on the other shoulder, and in a thick dark blue serge uniform—all for £10 a week—was a hard way to build up spending money for term time. However, it was also good fun, though one thanked the Gods that one didn’t have to do it all year. Mostly we had the AEC Beverley-topped buses in town. I remember one dreaded route (Brid to Scarborough) that used these. It went past Butlins at Filey. Understandably, the Butlins crowds were tight with money, and I recall many an argument about the right fare as we crept up Hunmanby Hill. Usually Major Richardson, the chief Bridlington Inspector, would be lurking at the Dotterel Inn, and he would back the “connie”. Later he’d tear a strip off you for letting someone take un-fare(!) advantage. If one kept in with the dispatcher, one could get a great route: the Saturday extra coaches to Leeds. You could get all the fares by Burton Agnes, and take it easy after that. The holiday makers boarding house changeover was Saturday, so the bus was weighed down with big suitcases as well as many large Leeds ladies and gents. On one Saturday lunchtime my driver stopped at the top of Garrowby Hill, came round and said with a straight face that he didn’t think with all the weight aboard that he could make it safely down. He asked me to select ten passengers to get off, with their luggage, and walk down. Fortunately, before I opened my mouth and got lynched, his straight face cracked. I lived in Flamborough and sometimes had strange mornings when I had to cycle from there to the garage on Quay Road, just past the Queensgate junction, to take over a bus that was assigned to route 28—Flamborough Lighthouse and North Landing!
Patrick Wesley
21/09/11 – 06:08
A wonderful set of tales, Patrick – thx for sharing them with us.
Chris Hebbron
21/09/11 – 06:11
Let us not forget another wonderful feature in Bridlington in those happy days of yore – United Automobile Services. Almost opposite the EYMS bus station in the Promenade was a little United booking office and space for about four buses (at a push) on the forecourt. From there departed United service 111 to Scarborough, after crossing the pavement !! That route ran via Speeton and Hunmanby. The premises are still there as a friendly little cafe – I’ve often been tempted to pop in and ask for a Bristol Breakfast and a Lowestoft Lasagne, but I suppose I would be humoured while they sent for the men in white coats !!
Chris Youhill
21/09/11 – 15:39
Looking at Ian Gibbs’s EY sign in his post of 8/2/11, I love the precision of the word ‘dep’t’ with its circumflex! How English has changed not not necessarily for the better. It also reminds me of the old railway sign, “ALL TICKETS MUST BE SHEWN”. In fact, my wartime schooling was by aged teachers brought out of retirement. We were taught some very old-fashioned English and ‘shew’ was one example. after some twenty years without anyone commenting, a new generation started telling me I’d spelt it wrongly and I re-adapted, although it still catches me out sometimes!
Chris Hebbron
05/11/11 – 11:36
My morning this Saturday started with a query, as to why ‘Atlas Editions’ do not produce a model of an EYMS ‘Bar bus’? Then it started…..reams of memories in these posts. I travelled by East Yorkshire ‘double-deckers’ on a daily basis from 1954 to 1960, from Willerby Square (which was ’round’ and still is)… to Beverley Grammar School (via Cottingham Green and Skidby). These vehicles had usually begun their routes at Hessle and Anlaby. The ‘Hessleites and Anlabyites’ had always laid claim to the upper-deck front seats, so we were often upper-deck back-enders’. I recall a favourite ‘Guy’ (That Indian Chief radiator cap will be worth a fortune now I guess)… (Fleet No.382) which had a tendency to ‘steam’ as it managed Skidby Hill. Many of the ‘youths’ had total disrespect for our school bus and took great delight in moving to one side of the upper-deck, then…grabbing the metal handrails began a rhythmic sway…..which needless to say put the vehicle into a dangerous situation…and one Glaswegian driver into a ‘more’ dangerous situation. On one occasion he stopped his vehicle, appeared on the upper deck puffing more steam than his ‘Guy’ and waged war on these ‘toffee-nosed little Gits from Grammar School’! (What a rude man). I have now amassed about 20 Atlas Edition bus models, but that company should be re-named to…. ‘Alas Editions’, as….’alas’ no model EYMS Bar Bus has appeared in its range yet. To conclude, as a lad…my pal and I used to cycle from our homes in Willerby to the EYMS depot at Anlaby Common. There we were entertained by the EYMS’s resident artist, the man responsible for those wonderful oil paintings of tourist venues that adorned bus station walls. On one unforgetful occasion I was allowed into the driver’s cab of a ‘double-decker’ where he sat me on his knee and allowed me to steer the vehicle, probably about 1 mph inside the garage. I doubt that ‘driver-knee-sitting’ would be allowed in this PC age either. Not that any driver would wish it now….I am 68 and 14 stones (of pure ‘East’ Yorkshireman).
Richard Pullen
14/02/12 – 07:45
I too travelled on a daily basis from Anlaby to Beverley Grammar from 1963 to 1968 on a wide range of EY buses – the first ones being PD1 Titans through the Regents, Bridgemasters, and finishing with the Renowns. I remember a visit to the Anlaby Common depot from the Primary school, I now remember catching the Willerby to Hull bus to travel to the primary school in the late 50’s when the weather was unfit for walking – the bus stop was just before St Peters Church on Wilson St. The buses that fascinated me then were the ” Flat Roofs” as we used to call them, remembering to duck if you sat down stairs on the offside, and the high step up upstairs to get onto the long seats. If only the diecast producers would look at the variety of EY buses over the years, and also KHCT’s impressive ” Blue and Whites”, pre Cleveland Transit and ultimately Stagecoach at present, there could be a fascinating range of models.
John Eggleton
14/02/12 – 11:18
There is a beautiful new EFE model of one of the Leyland PD2s with Leyland lowbridge body and the destination display “Hull via Patrington” – ie travelling from Withernsea. I was not aware, certainly in my RAF days, that any such lowbridge vehicles wandered due east of Hull, but perhaps this was a later development after October 1956 ??
Chris Youhill
18/02/12 – 15:37
I have to agree that the EFE PD2 Lowbridge is one of the best models they have produced – it still stands though, that the Beverley Bar range of vehicles would produce an unmissable selection of models, with the ultimate one being a ” Yellow Peril”. The stumbling block as always is the cost of new tooling.
John Eggleton
19/02/12 – 11:57
Can I be controversial? I remember, as a young boy, the arrival of the “Yellow Perils” and apart from the livery was not impressed and am still not – in looks they did not compare with the immortal PD1As and the superb PD2/3s. My family visited relatives in Newby just outside Scarborough on Saturdays – two hours plus on a PD2/3 and twenty minutes on a Bristol L – now there is an icon – to Newby on the 116 In Scarborough you could enjoy and contrast the EYMS and the United liveries,not to mention the West Yorkshire buses at the shared bus station at Northway including for a short time single deckers with bible indicators – there were also “standard” ECW bodies and the Beverley Bar version. In the early fifties when bus travel was heavy at holiday times a lowbridge was once used as a duplicate on the Scarborough route – how it got there I don’t know. Also in the early fifties EYMS would hire Regent IIIs from KHCT at weekends to be used on the Withernsea route – a note in the KHCT 1953/4 annual report states this happened on four occasions much less than previously owing to poor weather. Hire was much simpler than KHCT taking over an EYMS local service – the mileage balancing arrangements of the Coordination Agreement being too complicated. The lowbridge buses were used on one route to Hornsea and to Selby – highbridge buses used to carry a notice in the cab stating which bridges they were forbidden to pass under – I think one in Hornsea itself, one at North Cave and one at Howden – there might have been another but I’m not certain. In the early fifties EYMS had 11 lowbridge buses, 426/7 PDI/Roe L51R of 1947, 505-7 PD1A/Roe L51R of 1949 and 584-9 PD2/12/Leyland L53R. Four more were purchased, 632/3 PD2/12 Roe L56R in 1955 and 649/50 AEC Regent III/ Willowbrook L59R in 1957. Of them all I felt the Leyland bodies looked the best 382 was a TD5 of 1939 originally having a body by ECW H52R which was replaced with another ECW H54R body in 1948 – there’s a photo of it in the PSV/OS fleet history of EYMS Incidentally, how old is old – hard to believe that Hull’s first Atlanteans are 52 years old this year!
Malcolm Wells
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
30/03/13 – 07:22
Regarding the EYMS Beverley Bar buses, I have a question I’ve been trying to find a definitive answer to for years. What was the purpose of the white band along the roof edge? Perhaps the answer is obvious – to reveal any contact with the archway, which would also leave white paint on the masonry. Can anyone confirm this?
Re the discussion on signs and notices inside buses, there was the one widely seen in ECW lowbridge buses on lower-deck seatbacks under the sunken gangway and on the upper deck:
“PLEASE LOWER YOUR HEAD WHEN LEAVING YOUR SEAT”.
Some were clandestinely altered to “Lower your seat when leaving your head”!
Martin S
30/03/13 – 17:08
Regarding the white roof band on the EYMS Beverley Bar roofs, I believe this came about after the first Beverley Bar roofs were introduce, before the Beverley Bar roof, all of the roof on deckers was painted white, as with many other bus fleets, to avoid the roof of a Beverley Bar decker being all white and looking like a pile of snow! the top section was painted indigo blue to lower the profile, this was continued to cover the rear dome (not sure why), the remaining white section got smaller over the years and became a roof band and part of the livery, and was also carried on lowbridge deckers (not all) and saloons also had white roofs up to the 60’s. I don’t think the white band had anything to do with the Beverley Bar.
Here is the picture of Williamson’s ex Doncaster Titanic (76 – DT 9643) in action in Queen Street. Unfortunately the destination blind is obscured by the sun but would say either “The Quay and Queensgate” or “Old Town and The Quay”, depending on whether it was quarter to or quarter past the hour, or on the hour or half past. It was a 1938 Titanic TT5c and served only one year in Bridlington, from July 1949 to July 1950. Possibly its Titanic running costs, maybe aggravated by the torque converter, resulted in this short career. In view of the notorious maritime disaster of 1912 I’ve always thought it either brave or cavalier of Leyland to give the model this particular name !!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
18/03/12 – 11:28
Slightly off our normal bus subject – hard labour of a the non driving sort. In Nov 1907 a man called Arthur —- was charged on remand with stealing the tin box containing the fares collected on one of the ‘busses plying between Old Town and the Quay (note the old plural spelling for buses) the thief got 2 months hard labour – obviously not soft on crime in Bridlington!
Ian Gibbs
19/09/13 – 17:57
Doncaster had nine Titanics, some of which were passed to other operators – one even ending up with Yorkshire Traction. Some lasted until the early 1950s. Sheffield’s Titanics had a reputation for poor-hill climbing, and I believe they were used mostly on the relatively flat 57 route to Stocksbridge.
Geoff Kerr
20/09/13 – 18:38
Geoff – I believe Sheffield’s Titanics were known as ‘Dragonflies’ on account that they would ‘drag’ themselves slowly up the hill and ‘fly’ down the other side!
John Darwent
03/10/13 – 17:37
I recently came across this picture of Doncaster’s “Titanic” No 65. This was evidently taken outside the Charles H.Roe works prior to delivery. According to the accompanying text “It seems likely that this imposing bus was the only TT2 Titanic other than the three supplied to City and taken over by the L.P.T.B., of which the chassis numbers were 2288-90”. The photograph was credited to ‘Mr G. Warnes’
Nigel Edwards
04/10/13 – 06:14
These might not have been the earliest Titanics, for I have a feeling that I once saw a photo of a Western SMT TT1 Titanic which dated back to about 1928. So they were in the catalogue for a long time, even if they only sold in penny numbers.
Chris Hebbron
04/10/13 – 08:39
I know I’ve mentioned this before, but whatever were Leyland thinking of to use this model name when you consider the appalling shipping disaster of 1912 ?? Perhaps level headed operators paid no heed to this, but who knows if the insensitive name played perhaps just a little part in the low sales achieved??
Chris Youhill
04/10/13 – 15:04
Yes, Chris – it is indeed strange that they used the name Titanic so soon after the tragedy, but I suppose the then more recent Great War memories made this event almost trivial in comparison. However, I find it strange that, today, the Titanic disaster has become something almost to be “celebrated” as in Belfast. Sorry – not a bus related comment. However, it’s good to know that the AEC equivalent had a more positive and inspiring name – Renown, albeit with the same poor sales.
Paul Haywood
04/10/13 – 18:08
Of course, it was LGOC/LPTB who boosted the otherwise meagre sales of the pre-war AEC Renown; 1488 LT’s and 22 LTC’s, plus the true coach taken onboard from Edward Hillman (LT1489). The only other ones that readily come to my mind are the 25 bought by Leicester Corporation in 1939-40. As for the Titanic, the WWI torpedoing of the Lusitania might have made the Titanic sink into the background of folks memories. I’ve just realised the Freudian slip, but will leave it as an example of the way the mind innocently works at times! As an aside, I’ve only ever seen photos of Leicester’s Northern Counties-bodied Renowns (one preserved)- I assume that the MCCW versions were a different design.
Chris Hebbron
05/10/13 – 08:24
The famous Mr Rackham – who designed both the Leyland Titan and the AEC Regent – was vociferous in his dislike of what we now call tri-axle designs and disapproved of the LTs. Leicester’s MCCW Renowns were specifically delivered to a Northern Counties like outline to make all the Renowns look similar.
David Oldfield
05/10/13 – 08:25
65 was a 1934 TT2c withdrawn in 1947 (Peter Gould) Williamsons was Doncaster 76 a TT5c new in 1938 withdrawn in 1949. What a huge difference in appearance over 4 years. 76 would pass for a post war bus, but 65 looks almost 20’s.
Joe
28/02/16 – 15:19
My grandmother Doris was Ruben Williamson daughter, who married Samuel Bolton & lived across the road from the garage at 22 Havelock Crescent & my dad often told me about Williamson buses when he was 14 before school he used to help his dad Samuel bring the buses out (abo 1935). My dad was Arthur Williamson Bolton
Ideal Service (R Taylor & Sons) 1934 Leyland Tiger TS6C Roe B36R (1949)
Parked in Beastfair Pontefract awaiting for the return journey to Barnsley is DJ 6058 which was a Leyland TS6C new to St Helens corporation in 1934 with an English Electric B32F body. Acquired by R. Taylor and Son Cudworth who ran the Ideal Service with H. Wray of Hoyle Mill Barnsley. Re-bodied in 1949 with a Roe body, the entrance was changed to the rear and four extra seat were added making it a B36R. When Taylors sold out to Yorkshire Traction, Wray’s continued to run the service until they too sold to Yorkshire Traction. Stagecoach ran the service Barnsley to Pontefract via Upton until the 29th January 2017 and they have terminated the service at Brierley. The service from Hemsworth to Pontefract via Upton in now run by M Travel with a vastly reduced service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brian Lunn
17/02/17 – 06:48
To see what it looked like originally, there’s an official picture of a sister vehicle when new at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/
David Beilby
17/02/17 – 08:54
Thanks for the picture David, it is interesting to see the difference. I don’t remember it any different to the Roe body, so it may have been re-bodied soon after Taylor’s bought it.
Brian Lunn
17/02/17 – 08:55
David – thanks for the link to the official photo of the St Helens version of this TS6c. However, what amazes me is the sign in the back window stating “Dick Kerr Coachwork”. I realise they had an historic link with English Electric but I don’t think I’ve ever known of, or seen, reference to a Dick Kerr bus body before.
Paul Haywood
17/02/17 – 14:40
Yes, Paul, an interesting observation. I knew of the ‘Dick Kerr’ connection to trams, and the English Electric connection to both buses and trams, but it appears (if we believe Wikipedia) that the DK operation was a member of the EE group, and that the name is not a variation of Richard Kerr, but a combination of Mr Dick and Mr Kerr, so “Dick, Kerr”.
Pete Davies
17/02/17 – 14:41
By the time of this picture DJ 6058 seems to have lost its torque converter, as there is no long tank visible on the front bulkhead. I guess the conversion to normal gearbox would have been made at the same time as the rebodying.
Ian Thompson
17/02/17 – 14:42
According to the Peter Gould fleet list, this vehicle (and one other of its type) were rebodied while with St Helens, and lasted until 1954 with that fleet.
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