…of vehicles pre-1970
Copyright Roger Cox
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “West Riding Guy Wulfrunians” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Copyright Roger Cox
Copyright Roger Cox
These shots are from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “West Riding Guy Wulfrunians” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shots are shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Copyright Roger Cox
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “West Riding Guy Wulfrunians” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
LEN 101 was the solitary Guy Wulfrunian purchased by Bury Corporation in 1961.(Fleet number 101.) It had Roe H43/30F bodywork, but carried a Park Royal manufacturers’ plate. This was to allow it to be exhibited at the 1960 Commercial Motor Show; as the Roe stand already had enough exhibits, there being strict limits on the number of vehicles each manufacturer was allowed to display. It had another unique feature, three part platform doors. Bury Corporation ran the Wulfrunian for only three years, and for much of this time it was relegated to peak hour use. It was sold to an independent operator in South Wales, Howell and Withers, who painted it grey and white, but only operated it for a short time before selling the bus to Wrights, Penycae in August 1964. Wrights operated it on their stage service into Wrecsam for five years.. Wrights painted the bus into this attractive two tone blue livery. It was with Wrights that I had my only ride on this bus. Eventually LEN 101 was sold again, this time to Berresfords of Cheddleton, who operated the bus for only a few days. Apparently drivers complained about the heavy steering; so proprietor Jim Berresford took it for a test drive, after which he dumped it in the field behind the Depot, where this photo was taken.
The Wulfrunian was eventually rescued by a group of preservationists from the Manchester area, with the intention of restoring it to Bury Corporation’s light green and cream livery. It was parked in the yard at the rear of Manchester’s Hyde Road depot, which was used for initial training by the PTE’s driving school. Sadly, one of the training buses reversed into the Wulfrunian, and it’s body was written off.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
27/11/14 – 06:21
Apart from the grilles for the Cave-Brown-Cave system, the really fascinating thing about this bus is what on earth prompted Bury, a Leyland/AEC operator to plump for a Guy and without the Leyland engine option Guy offered. Further, how did the purchase slip past the Transport Committee.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/11/14 – 14:15
Looking at its one-off status and commercial motor show exhibit background, followed by Bury’s operational lack of enthusiasm, this may have been an offer that they couldn’t refuse, but then didn’t quite know what to do with it.
Stephen Ford
27/11/14 – 17:23
Further to Don McKeown’s post on the Bury Corporation Wulfrunian LEN 101, I attach a picture of it after being damaged in the Training School yard at Manchester’s Hyde Road Depot.
It was apparently a Mancunian which did the damage.
This picture is from my collection and is not my copyright.
Stephen Howarth
28/11/14 – 06:41
I think it is easy to overlook the high level of interest shown in the Wulfrunian at the time of its introduction. Operators were looking for a forward entrance high capacity bus but there was a lot of nervousness about the rear engine concept offered in the Atlantean. The two demonstrators were kept very busy and appeared with many of the large operators.
Bury was just about to start on a major fleet update to replace their fleet of early post-war PD1’s and PD2’s and 101 was probably bought as a test bed for a potential replacement vehicle. They could have saved a lot of money and heartache if they had taken one of the demonstrators for a spell.
I remember 101 with Bury and it seemed to spend most of its life parked by the doorway of the Rochdale Road garage. I was told by one of the fitters that it was disliked by drivers because of the heavy steering and very cramped cab. I did see it in service on the 9 (Jericho – Tottington) and 37 (Walmersley – Whitefield) occasionally.
It is a great pity that it was damaged in the collision at Hyde Road as despite its failings, it was a key part of the transport heritage of the north west. I believe the chassis still exists at Dewsbury Bus Museum. Can anyone confirm?
Philip Halstead
28/11/14 – 06:46
The chassis still survives, and is currently parked among undergrowth at a preservation site near Selby, where it is owned by Mr. Ian Hunter of Leeds. The above photo shows the chassis as it was in the summer of 2014.
Don McKeown
28/11/14 – 14:36
I am pleased to see that this rare chassis still survives, I hope it can be restored before it rusts away. I’m sure the steering will not feel so heavy without the bodywork.
Ron Mesure
29/11/14 – 07:16
I’ve got it in my head that Wright’s of Penycae were not the second Welsh independent to operate LEN 101, but the third. I could even suggest a third operator’s name – can anyone confirm?
As to why Bury didn’t insist on the use of one of the demonstrators (are we sure they didn’t have one?), the borrowing of a manufacturer’s demonstrator wasn’t something which was as easy as people probably imagine. A manufacturer needed to be sure there was an order in the offing before a demonstrator became a possibility. I have actually been in an operator’s office when the operator asked the rep if there was any possibility of having a vehicle on demonstration, and the response was an emphatic ‘no’.
As to whether the use of a demo would have helped depends upon how quickly the Wulfrunian’s failings made themselves felt. In view of how quickly operators generally disposed of them the answer would appear to be, very quickly indeed, yet West Riding continued to buy them until 1965.
Were West Riding simply stubbornly reluctant to admit they’d made a mistake, or were they obliged to buy a certain number as part of the original deal?
David Call
30/11/14 – 06:33
I remember in the 60`s Bury did have an Atlantean from Coventry, it was in the colours of Coventry, Blue with a white band. It was a surprise as I was going home from my then girlfriend from Bolton to Bury, I remember the driver telling me it was on loan from Coventry. I remember LEN 101, it seems a shame lying in the under growth with no body.
David Henighan
30/11/14 – 09:55
I know you can’t always rely on Wiki, but, the Wulfrunian article on there says that it was developed jointly by Guy and West Riding.
John Lomas
01/12/14 – 07:12
If that was the training bus that did the damage, then I’m hardly surprised that the poor trainee didn’t have full control of the Macunian. From the photo, it doesn’t look as though it’s got an engine !
Petras409
01/12/14 – 07:13
Referring to Philip Halstead’s post, scroll down here for several views of LEN 101 including one in colour of the bus on the 37 Whitefield. //jsh1949.co.uk/GUY%20WULFRUNIAN.htm
John Darwent
01/12/14 – 07:14
In the book ‘Forgotten Double Deckers’ by David Harvey there is a section on the Guy Wulfrunian and a piece that reads:
Quote
The Development of the “Wulfrunian”
Guy Motors were going to be left behind in the race to develop an up-to-date low height 30′ long chassis, until West Riding Motors of Wakefield, at the instigation of their chief engineer, Ron Brooke, approached Guys with an advanced specification for such a chassis.
Unquote
David Slater
01/12/14 – 07:15
In the mid 1950s, following the lead of General Motors in the USA, whose GMC type 4104 air suspended Scenicruiser had been adopted by Greyhound from 1953, Guy Motors became convinced that the future for successful passenger chassis sales lay in air suspension. This initial interest led to the underfloor engined Victory, which had air suspension all round, independent at the front, and air hydraulic disc brakes. The first Victory appeared in 1958, and during the model’s development, Ron Brooke, the Chief Engineer of West Riding, approached Guy with the idea of a low frame double deck chassis incorporating the air suspension features of the Victory, but employing a simple, straight drive line from a front mounted engine. This, it was thought, would give a reliable drive line and permit the entire interior of the lower deck to be used for passenger accommodation. At this time the early Atlanteans were suffering extreme problems with their rear engines/gearboxes and angled drive lines. It would seem that he had hawked his ideas round other manufacturers to no avail (I bet that all those sceptical makers breathed huge sighs of relief when the Wulfrunian’s troubles came home to roost). West Riding was a confirmed user of Gardner engines in its Arab fleet, and the 6LX was chosen as the power unit of the new Wulfrunian. Though not a heavy engine in comparison with its contemporaries from other UK manufacturers, the 6LX was physically large, and positioning it as far to the offside as possible to allow a respectable platform area resulted in a very narrow cab and footwell. To add to the driver’s woes, his/her left leg was unavoidably positioned hard against the engine cover panel, on the far side of which was the Gardner’s offside exhaust assembly. Because of the substantial weight at the extreme front of the overhang, the front wheels had a remarkable negative camber that contributed to the very heavy steering characteristics. The shrouding by the bodywork of the disc braking system sometimes caused the hydraulic fluid to boil, leading to a frightening loss of response. The subsequent history of the Wulfrunian’s operational career is well known, but it is surprising that the deficiencies of the design were not recognised and acted upon in the prototype stages. Looking at the chassis diagrams, it would seem that an answer might have been found by following the AEC ‘Q’ concept, and repositioning the engine to the offside close behind the front wheels. The transmission line would have had to be moved a bit, but the rest of the chassis could have stayed the same. The use of full air rather than air hydraulic for the brakes would have sorted out the braking problem at a stroke. Several modifications were made during the production run to try to fix the problems that arose, but the firm just ran out of money. We now know that Guy was already in severe financial difficulties at this time, following its agency debacle in South Africa, so it just stuck with a flawed design that had gained definite orders from West Riding, and turned a blind eye to the inevitable outcome.
Roger Cox
01/12/14 – 09:55
Petras409, either the photo or Stephen’s comment is misleading. The Training School used a variety of vehicles. Those on the public roads were normally dedicated vehicles, permanently marked with L plates. Within the grounds at Hyde Rd, this wasn’t always the case. It very much looks as if the GMT vehicle has done the damage. If so it looks as if it was a withdrawn vehicle being used ad hoc for basic training which has had its engine removed after the event, but it is a SELNEC/GMT Standard, not a Mancunian.
Phil Blinkhorn
01/12/14 – 14:07
A fascinating tale, Roger: the sad bit is that the design could have been developed in the way that you suggest: sitting in a modern megabus makes you itch to make use of the space under the stairs! You can see now the fundamental flaws in the Wulfrunian design caused by the desire to get a bulky engine, a driver, a staircase and a passenger platform in to 8ft. The curiosity is whether the driver was protected by the engine or couldn’t get into the saloon direct to deal with troublemakers: perhaps a good thing! We were in a time when men were men and standing up to turn the steering to full lock not unknown- but plonking all that weight at one end in the overhang was possibly worse than plonking it at the back. All would have been solved with your Q2 with a touch of Lodekka, perhaps.
What a link, John D to pics of so many Wulfrunians. Did Roe body all the “standard” ones? The Accrington version would have been a good test-bed for a lot of the technology without the overhang problems. Did the Victory have the same sort of problems? And what happened to all those West Riding Wulfrunians- straight to scrap with engines, too?
Joe
02/12/14 – 05:26
Joe, from reports I have read, most if not all of West Riding’s Wulfrunian engines (Gardner 6LXs) went into the ‘Wulfie’ replacement Daimler Fleetlines.
Brendan Smith
02/12/14 – 08:48
Brendan: I wondered about that… the subsequent West Riding VR’s used to gurgle like the Wulfrunians: why did West Riding buy up all those Wulfrunians? To get a load of cheap engines!
Joe
02/12/14 – 14:06
One of the perceived advantages of the Wulfrunian layout was the availability of the entire lower saloon for passenger accommodation. It was rather ironic that, when the excessive front end loading difficulties arose, West Riding removed the upper deck seats in front of the staircase, and barred off that area completely, thus totally negating the extra seating downstairs.
Roger Cox
09/12/14 – 06:17
I followed John D’s link above and….
At the risk of offending anyone on here, I think the only comment I’d make is that the Accrington rear entrance Wulfrunians (picture on John’s link Fleet Number 157 / Registration 36 VTF) deserve an honourable mention on the Ugly Bus Page !!
Stuart C
09/12/14 – 11:56
I’m a fan of East Lancs products (having lived in Stockport for many years that’s a given!) but will accept your nomination and would ask our leader to do the necessary!!
Phil Blinkhorn
10/12/14 – 06:21
Stuart C/Phil: I’ve seen worse- looks better as sold on with the “radiator” panel contrasted. See this link.
If you are putting this bus into Room 101, then you may have to add a BMMO D type- but which one? D7?
But then the D10 is the Wulfrunian that might have been…
Joe
11/12/14 – 06:32
Not the D7, Joe, but the D5, which, with its droopy, sad expression always suggested that it was about to burst into tears. I think that it would take quite a leap of the imagination to visualise the Wulfrunian metamorphosing into the D10:- low floor/high floor, front engine /underfloor engine, air suspension/rubber suspension etc.
Roger Cox
07/01/15 – 09:40
Here’s LEN 101 operating for Wrights, loading up in Wrexham Bus Station for Penycae just before 5 pm on 12 April 1969.
Tim Jeffcoat
14/12/15 – 06:22
I always thought most of the Wulfrunian’s failings could be addressed in the following ways:
1) Air operated drum brakes.
2) Steel suspension: At front: Routemaster, unequal wishbone with spring over shockers set up, with the addition (if room) of torsion bars to stiffen the whole thing up and the ability to adjust ride height. With this arrangement front wheel camber angles could have been normalised. On the rear: The coil spring set up as on the F series Bristol Lodekka.
3) Power steering (the contemporary Routemaster had it).
4) ASAP an 8’2 and a half” body, to give the driver.
Put all that together, although front brake and tyre wear are always going to be heavy with this set up, a it might have been largely OK.
James Fawcett
14/11/19 – 05:47
I used the 37 Bus to and from my home in Walmersley, as I as in school in Bury ( Bury GS). I remember the Wulfrunian well and often wondered what happened to it. Very sad, now I know!
Also, I vaguely remember ( the memory isn’t what it used to be!) an AEC Bridgemaster “on trial” around the same time and alsio used on the 30/37 route. Am I wrong?
PS Loved to ride on the two AECs BEN 176 and 177 and pleased one has been preserved. Loved that AEC engine whine!
Al
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
03/08/20 – 06:41
I travelled on LEN 101 to school whilst it was with Bury Corporation and invariably it meant I arrived late for school as the drivers did not like the heavy steering and therefore always seemed to lose time which they could not make up. I seem to remember that it was also owned by Byley Motors in Cheshire for a while at some stage after Bury sold it out of service.
Don Butterworth
Llandudno UDC was one of Britain’s smaller municipal fleets, and unlike most municipalities, it’s services were aimed at tourists rather than local residents. A fleet of small buses was built up for use principally on the Marine Drive, a 5 mile scenic road around the base of the Great Orme, a 679ft high headland which dominates the local scenery. In the early fifties, a second tour was added which took in some of the inland countryside and then circled the Marine Drive. In 1951 a stage service was introduced which connected the town centre with St. Tudno’s Church, near the summit of the Orme. Two Foden coaches were purchased for this spectacular route; it was said that the journey took 17 minutes, of which nine minutes were in first gear!
CCC 596 was one of a pair of similar vehicles bought in 1954; they were small enough to operate the Marine Drive tour, but could also be used on the St. Tudno’s stage service at quieter times. Like the Fodens, they were fitted with “Spragg Equipment”, a safety device which apparently prevented the vehicles running back on the gradient. These were the last new buses to be bought by Llandudno UDC for fourteen years, until a pair of Dennis buses, based on a lorry chassis, were bought to replace the Fodens. in 1968.
On summer Sunday mornings an open air service was held in St. Tudno’s graveyard, and virtually the whole fleet was pressed into service to carry the crowds; the smaller vehicles ran round part of the Marine Drive before climbing a zig-zag road with easier gradients.
When new these buses, like the rest of the fleet, were painted maroon and cream. In the late sixties they was repainted blue and cream, a livery introduced on the Dennis’s. In 1974, Llandudno UDC was taken over by the new Aberconwy Borough Council, and the red and grey livery shown here was introduced. Bedford SB buses were purchased for the St. Tudno’s route, and several second hand Bedford VAS coaches took over the Marine Drive Tour. Later the stage service passed to Crosville, which resulted in Leyland Nationals climbing the Grat Orme. At this time the upper terminus was moved from St. Tudno’s to the Summit Car Park. After a spell with minibuses, Crosville’s successor, Arriva, now uses Dennis Darts, although only three journeys a day reach the Summit.
The size limit on the Marine Drive no longer applies, and nowadays Alpine Coaches run “Vintage” tours on the Marine Drive using Leyland Tiger Cubs, while the annual Transport Gathering in May sees a variety of old buses and lorries circumnavigating the Orme.
This view shows CCC 596 approaching St Tudno’s Church on the Sunday morning alternative route from the Marine Drive.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
29/10/13 – 13:29
Nice view, Don, and a very interesting caption. Thanks for posting. I’ve only ever been to Llandudno once, on a boat trip from Liverpool. It was running so late that my parents and I just had time to disembark and join the queue for boarding again!
Pete Davies
30/10/13 – 07:15
I remember taking the Marine Drive trip in the mid 50’s but we had a small normal control Guy, definitely petrol engined but I don’t know what model.
I also remember the Fodens on the mountain route. Formidable looking machines!
Bob Hunter
30/10/13 – 11:54
Here’s a webpage with full details of all the early buses going to Great Orme.
I like the Guy Wolf, which had detachable sides. It states that a surprising number of these vehicles survive and there’s a photo of a selection on the GO at the bottom of the page.
Link to view: www.llantransfest.co.uk/l
Chris Hebbron
31/10/13 – 07:27
This is shown in Classic Bus 127 and described as a Dennis Stork school bus owned by the former London County Council!
Paragon
19/10/16 – 06:17
Nope this is one of only 2 Guy Otters new in 1954 to Llandudno and District Urban Council. They were fitted with a ratchet brake so as to stop them sliding back on the steep hill of the Great Orme.
They were registered CCC 596 and CCC 597.
As far as we know CCC 597 was used as a hen hut.
CCC 596 was bought by Alpine Coaches of Llandudno in about 1992 and Mike Jones an Alpine Mechanic (and my brother) spent over a 1000 hours restoring it.
We travelled to many shows in the 90’s with it and won many trophies.
Alpine still own it but it doesn’t get out much these days.
David Jones
The small operation of Darlington Corporation does not seem to be mentioned on the Website.
I have only been to the town once back in 1968. I took just one photo probably as it was unusual even in those days to see a passenger ready to leave the centre entrance whilst the bus was still in motion. A single deck Guy Arab III was also unusual for me.
I have recently rediscovered this old slide taken with a very basic camera, I hope it may be of interest.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Newton
13/08/15 – 08:15
I don’t think the Roe West Riding Red AEC’s had doors to their centre entrances, either. This made the rear saloon a chilly place- and as you suggest the elfansafety doesn’t bear thinking about- the step backwards system of alighting from a moving bus platform was impossible and twisting sideways must have been just right to fall against the rear wheels. End of an era, here.
Joe
13/08/15 – 08:51
I attach a bought slide of a Swindon Daimler CV single decker with a similar centre entrance/exit arrangement. How popular was it, exactly? I know some of Blackpool ones in the 1930s, and we all know about their PD2/5 fleet, but single deckers like this seem very rare.
Pete Davies
13/08/15 – 11:53
Not centre-entrance and a decker, but London Transport’s Country Area STL’s posed the same hazards as the other two vehicles. LPTB’s 1936 (ex-STL 1470) offering was lauded by them as ‘draught-free’, a statement, from personal experience, I heartily disagreed with, despite the angled front bulkhead and rear partition to entrance! Note the staircase opposite the entrance. LINK: www.flickr.com/photos/
Chris Hebbron
13/08/15 – 13:55
Joe, I think the West Riding centre-entrance Regents had doors. However, like you, I also remember being cold in their rear saloons so they probably spent most of their time open (to save the conductors’ time).
This photo seems to show the door in a closed position. //www.bus-and-coach-photos.com/picture/number5402.asp Some photos suggest they were double doors, hinged outwardly opening. If only 111 had survived beyond early preservation.
Paul Haywood
13/08/15 – 14:40
Municipal conservatism at work with these Guys? By 1953 underfloor engined saloons were well established and virtually the norm so these purchases seem a bit of an anachronism. Doncaster and Burnley, Colne and Nelson were other operators that stuck to half-cab single deckers well into the 1950’s with BCN taking PS2 Tigers right up to 1955. More examples of those little things that make our hobby so interesting.
Philip Halstead
14/08/15 – 11:51
Hunter of Seaton Delaval had two TS7 Leyland Tigers, JR 4901, from 1935, and JR 6600, 1936: both Burlingham B35F. In 1953 and 54 respectively, they were rebodied by Roe as B39C, they were very similar to this Darlington example, but differed slightly in that they had doors which were flush with the side of the bus when shut, but I cant for the life of me remember if they were two single doors, or a two piece folding type. The only thing that let them down, was that they had been rebodied as 8ft on a 7’6″ chassis, which tended to make them look a bit unbalanced.
Ronnie Hoye
16/08/15 – 06:35
Must have been a job keeping them clean,,,,
Mike
16/08/15 – 06:36
The last conventional half-cab saloons (both complete buses and new bodies for old chassis) date from 1955, after which only a few specialised vehicles were built on chassis normally bodied as double-deckers – a Leyland PD2 for West Mon, eight Regent Vs for South Wales Transport and two more as non-PSVs registered in Leeds.
Geoff Kerr
01/09/15 – 07:43
Rotherham Corporation ran a large fleet of Bristol L5G and L6B buses mostly with central entrance. FET 821 f/n 121 was one of the last delivered in 1951 with an East Lancs body and makes an interesting contrast to the standard ECW bodies which never -to my knowledge – offered this option. It was photographed in 1970 in Carlisle clearly on a school outing but from where and who was the operator- perhaps owned by the school itself?
Keith Newton
02/09/15 – 07:02
Keith, thanks for John Kaye who gave me this information regarding Rotherham 121 (above).
It was withdrawn by Rotherham in September 1968 it is recorded with Army Cadet Force, Dearne Valley Area, Wath (later Wakefield) in January 1969 and sold for scrap 1970.
Paul Haywood
02/09/15 – 07:03
This bus appeared on the SCT61 site and the discussion following the photographs gives some explanation as to why the bus would have been in Carlisle: //www.sct61.org.uk/rr121
David Beilby
MTJ 84 was originally Lancashire United 440. It is a 1951 Guy Arab III with Roe C35F body. It is owned nowadays by Cumbria Classic Coaches, and is regularly used for private hire work especially weddings. It is seen here at Bowber Head, near Kirkby Stephen, just outside the Cumbria Classic Coaches Depot.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
23/11/15 – 06:37
Another example of a somewhat anachronistic purchase by a major operator. By 1951 the underfloor engined single decker was becoming well established especially for coaches where being up to date with ‘fashion’ was more important than for buses. No doubt these were robust and reliable vehicles but very soon after purchase they would be perceived by the travelling public as very old fashioned. They did have long service lives however and spent a lot of their time on the long Tyne-Tees-Mersey service which in pre-motorway days must have been an arduous trek.
Philip Halstead
26/11/15 – 10:41
I can confirm the arduousness of the X97 in pre motorway days. We were regular travellers in the early sixties from Newcastle to Lymm Church, usually in summer. The usual trip was the 8.30 am departure from Newcastle Haymarket which from memory got to Lymm around teatime. We started queuing about an hour before the scheduled departure time in order to get on the first coach. This was usually a Northern Willowbrook bodied Tiger Cub or Reliance, or one of North Western’s black tops Reliances. They looked impressive but were basically 43 seat buses with detachable headrests on the seats.
The only bit of dual carriageway in the early days was on the A1 south of Catterick. Being a bus nut, I grabbed the front seat armed with my British Bus Fleets volumes much to the amusement of the crews.
One early lessons we learnt was never do the northbound journey on a summer Saturday. We did it once on a miserable wet day. LUT Guy Arab bus to Manchester, then on to a hired Yeates bodied Bedford to Leeds, then another change to get home.
Happy days.
Richard Slater
27/11/15 – 06:24
The livery shown here is very bus-like, the original livery with “brightwork” was much more coach like. LUT bucked the trend with its coach purchases. The first underfloor engined coaches were very sturdy looking centre entrance Roe bodied Guys which arrived in the black & red livery with brightwork (which was soon changed). The next deliveries included Weymann DP Guys and Roe DPs on Atkinson Alpha chassis. (The Atkinsons technically belonged to South Lancashire Tramways.) Add to these Duple Donnington and NCME bodied Tiger Cubs, Burlingham & Plaxton Derwent AEC Reliances, so waiting for an LUT coach in the 60s was most interesting!
Andrew Gosling
27/11/15 – 06:24
Richard, I can’t comment on the Northern Willowbrook bodied vehicles’ seats but the North Western bodied Reliances’ headrests were part of the moulded seat frame and were not detachable.
Phil Blinkhorn
28/11/15 – 06:06
Phil, I recall the high backed moulded seats, and I’m sure they had detachable headrests added. From memory they were white, but we’re talking 50 years ago and my memory could well be defective.
Richard Slater
28/11/15 – 06:06
I wish I’d paid more attention in their day to a number of underfloor single-deckers that are now rarities. Sentinels, Atkinson Alphas, Dennis UFs and Seddons and others come to mind, but at the time I found them a bit unappealing in comparison with halfcabs like this magnificent Roe-bodied Guy and the equally superb Leyland PS1 in the next posting. Underfloors obviously met an operational need, making OPO possible and fitting in an extra 4 seats, but they kept the fitters busy.
Ian Thompson
28/11/15 – 08:27
Not wishing to throw a spanner in the works, a study of the “black top AECs” photos in “North Western” volume 2 by Eric Ogden makes interesting viewing.
Page 54, 720-39, Reliance/Weymann, slightly higher backed seats, no head restraint.
Page 56, 746-60, Reliance/Willowbrook, slightly better moulded seats, no head restraint.
Page 59, 797-811, Reliance/Willowbrook, 804 clearly has white head restraints 797 head restraints, not good photo, but maybe not white or just dirty.
Page 63, 852-871, Reliance/Willowbrook, 864 moulded seats, no head restraints 862 white detachable head restraints retro fitted.
This should clarify the issue!
Andrew Gosling
29/11/15 – 05:53
Thanks Andrew, I have that book and maybe I should have dug it out.
Richard Slater
30/11/15 – 06:44
Richard’s recollection of the timings for his travels on the Newcastle-upon-Tyne to Lymm ‘Tyne-Tees-Mersey’ service are quite right.
The Summer 1951 timetable shows an 0830 departure from Haymarket and the arrival in Lymm would be 1616. The Winter 1969/1970 timetable shows the departure at 0840 arriving 1618.
Both these timetables, plus others from 1932 and 1972 including the vehicle/crew diagram for 1972, may be viewed on my Ipernity album covering the ‘Tyne-Tees-Mersey’ subject. www.ipernity.com/doc/davidslater
David Slater
03/12/15 – 10:38
David, thanks for confirming that my memory isn’t that faulty, it’s reassuring. I last used the X97 around 1968 and I can’t recall ever using the M62. My last trip from Lymm was in a Northern F registered Leopard with, I think, a Willowbrook bus body. It had very comfortable coach seating so a smooth journey was ensured. We used the night service once. This ran via Irlam and Eccles. It was a Yorkshire Woollen car, a DP Reliance, which got into Newcastle ridiculously early because it ran non stop from Leeds. This was quite a common event when the service car was filled with passengers for Newcastle.
Richard Slater
Not the best photo but the subject is, this Guy was ex Maidstone & District. From my research there seems to some information that it was re-bodied in 1952 but nine years is not a long time to require a new body unless it was a single decker originally. Photo taken at Dewsbury bus station on a very dull wet day.
If you know about the re-body issue or have information about the bus when at Maidstone & District please let me know.
The early re-bodying issue is simple. Almost all bus bodies built from the middle war years used unseasoned (green) wood and sheet steel. The austerity design only required semi-skilled labour, hence no panel-beating and the bodies were only single-skinned inside. Even the ‘green’ wood provided was not what the bodies would usually be built from, such as ash. Thus, the bodies rusted and the wood framing literally disappeared with the years passing. At least, this was the experience of London Transport, who gave up their usual high standard of body maintenance on these vehicles as too expensive and disposed of the vehicles with indecent haste around 1952-53! Ironically, the chassis would have lasted forever! Oddly, Northern Counties were given permission to continue building metal-framed bodies during the war, which did make their bodies more durable than the others.
Chris Hebbron
Chris is right. Bodywork built during wartime was to a “Utility” design necessitated by the circumstances at the time, and most were clapped out by the early 1950s. This one was originally built in 1943 with a Weymann utility body, and was one of eight acquired by Yorkshire Woollen from Maidstone & District in 1945 as a direct swap for the same number of Daimlers which had been allocated, but not delivered, to Yorkshire. All the Guys were rebodied by Roe between December 1952 and January 1955, with this particular one being done in January 1953.
Dave Jessop
Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This photo was taken at the Huddersfield terminus and the bus behind is a Guy Wulfrunian probably owned by West Riding. The Wulfrunian was said to be very advanced for the time, but I have read somewhere that the only advanced thing about it was the all round air suspension, lets face it the rather strange layout of the engine and stairs didn”t exactly catch on did it, if you disagree leave a comment.
But back to the County Motors Arab II this bus apparently has been preserved but at the moment I have not been able to come up with a link to a dedicated website, if you know, let me know.
It started life with a wartime utility body but was re-bodied in 1953 by C. H. Roe Leeds and ended up two seats less at the end of it.
Hard to tell which engine this bus had as all Arab IIs had the extended radiator to accept either the six cylinder Gardner (6LW) engine of 8.4 litre or the shorter five cylinder 7.0 litre Gardner (5LW) engine. Although knowing Huddersfield as I do then I think this bus would of handled the surrounding hills much better with the larger 6LW engine, either that or the driver would have to be very good at changing gear, especially down.
Anything—pictures or info—on Guy Arabs is fascinating. Greatly enjoyed pictures and comments.
In Reading we had utility Arab 5LWs and 6LWs until 1949-50, when they were sold on. No 27 seemed to be everyone’s favourite. How I wish one had been preserved…!
Ian Thompson
I can confirm that County 70 has a 6LW engine. At the time of re-bodying in 1953 it was fitted with a transmission of contemporary (i.e. Arab IV) design, which makes it much easier to drive than the original twin-plate clutch and sliding-mesh gearbox of the Arab II. This bus is currently in the Dewsbury Bus Museum.
Peter Williamson
10/02/21 – 07:13
County 70 is preserved and is now semi-restored at the Dewsbury Bus Museum awaiting a full repaint.
Can confirm it is a West Riding Guy Wulfrunian behind. The other advanced engineering on it was that Wulfrunians had disc brakes.
Graham Crawshaw
11/02/21 – 07:17
Graham’s post has drawn my attention to my earlier statement about 70’s transmission. Since writing that, I have discovered that the last Arab IIs to be built had the constant mesh gearbox from new, and so it may be that 70’s transmission is original. Sorry about that.
Peter Williamson
12/02/21 – 06:10
The transmission of the wartime Guy Arab consisted of a twin plate clutch and a four speed sliding mesh (crash) gearbox that dated from the 1920s, in which the gear selector operated from right to left for upward changes. During the summer of 1945 Guy began fitting the Arab with a single plate clutch coupled with its new all constant mesh gearbox, in which, unusually for the time, even first gear had constant mesh engagement. This gearbox, which selected gears in the by then conventional left to right sequence, was designed and developed during the conflict, but pressures of wartime delayed its appearance in service. This transmission proved to be immensely robust and reliable and remained an option right to the end of Arab production.
Roger Cox
12/02/21 – 12:12
I was for a time part-owner of Provincial 55 which has the reverse gearbox. The gear lever was fitted with a red knob rather than a black one to indicate this; I am not sure whether this was an original Guy feature, or fitted by Provincial, but I believe the former. I don’t recall the box as being tricky to master, other that having to remember where to put the stick!
Alan Murray-Rust
13/02/21 – 07:07
My Arab which also has a reverse gearbox has a black knob. Issue with the gearbox is that unlike Leylands or Bristols you have to place the gear lever the others allowing you to use the selector box sides for guidance.
Roger Burdett
13/02/21 – 07:08
The red gear lever knob was originally fitted to the later constant mesh box to indicate the correct left to right sequence. The old Guy gearbox had a black knob. No doubt things got swapped about in the course of time.
Roger Cox
13/02/21 – 07:09
I’ve not met any Guys with the reverse gearbox, but those with the constant-mesh box usually had maroon gear lever knobs. Even the Daimler CCG models, which had the same Guy gearbox, had maroon knobs.
Peter Williamson
14/02/21 – 07:00
London Transport lopped a couple of inches off their reverse gearbox Arabs., compared with the later ones.
Chris Hebbron
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Here is a a good shot of a Guy Arab II going about its business in the Yorkshire mill town area of Dewsbury. The 6LW after the make and model means that this bus had a Gardner 8.4 litre 6 cylinder diesel engine there was only one alternative at the time a Gardner 5LW 7.0 litre 5 cylinder diesel engine. This bus had a straight forward four speed crash gearbox and a vacuum assisted hydraulic braking system, the original body on this bus would have been of a utility style, all very basic but then it was built during wartime. It was rebodied around 1953 there is more on that subject and an excellent comment for the reason why here.
12/08/12 – 07:29
Please could anyone tell me what year Central Works Savile town closed as I worked their from 1973 to 1978
Ray
22/10/12 – 16:56
In answer to Ray’s question, when did YWD Central Works Dewsbury close, the time was August 1983 when the entire operation, including staff was transferred to Belle Isle at Wakefield. The function was then combined with the West Riding central works. A new machine shop and fuel injection-“pump” shop was then established as previously all fuel injection work was carried out at the Dewsbury site. I too worked at YWD, and started work there as an apprentice fitter in July 1963
David Howram