Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1965 Leyland Titan PD2/37 Roe H37/28F
This photo is of a C. H. Roe Version of an Halifax Corporation Leyland Titan PD2/37. You can compare it to a Weymann bodied version tomorrow when there will be Leyland Titan PD3 also operated by Halifax, so the appearance should not be affected by the livery. This Titan was passed on to WYPTE on the 1st of April 1974 and renumbered 3062 The photo was taken outside the old head office of the Halifax Building Society, but there”s a different story altogether. To see what the Halifax livery was like there is a colour shot of a Weymann PD2 of Halifax Corporation here.
Here we are in Huddersfield again on the road where all the non Corporation buses had there terminus, although the odd one did sneak in now and then. I think it was Lord Street and the building on the left is the Parish Church, this is where I think all the buses to surrounding towns i.e. Wakefield, Dewsbury and Barnsley for example started there journey. Anyway this is a very interesting bus, I have titled it as a Leyland Titan PD2 as it was listed in my “British Bus Fleets” book but actually it was a re-bodied Leyland Tiger PS2/1. I found in the Roe body list on the “Bus Lists on the web” website that the original Leyland Tiger registration was EVH 211, knowing that VH was an Huddersfield registration I thought I would try to find out who owned it originally. I ruled out the corporation as they were more into AEC single deckers, no way would it be ex Hanson they would have re-bodied it for themselves several times. Then I remembered that Yorkshire Traction were part owners of the Huddersfield based County Motors, so onto the “Huddersfield PTG” website and sure enough there it is EVH 211 fleet no 83 a 1949 Tiger PS2/1 with a Roe B34F body. If you would like to see what it looked like originally there is a link here you will have to scroll half way down the page to find it.
Tracky rebuilt and refurbished many PS1 and PS2 Tigers – so much that they merited new registration numbers. They were always referred to as Tigers, not Titans, after their rebuild and re-registration.
David Oldfield
YTC indeed did rebuild a significant number of obsolete half cab single decks, not all of which were for themselves – for example Stratford Blue had a similar bus to the one shown. The chassis were, more accurately, built using PD2 chassis rails with running gear and other components salvaged from the donor vehicle. YTC had an honourable tradition of rebuilding/re-bodying, as an example look no further than the preserved Tiger number 492 with its’ post-war body. The last vehicles to be rebuilt were the three Leopards in NBC days – Numbers 153/4 and 386. The first two were, in principle the same format as the PS2s i.e. the donor vehicles (ex Yorkshire Woollen in this case) were simply donors of components as the vehicles had updated chassis rails to PSU3E spec. They received Plaxton Supreme bodies with new registrations. Interestingly they had YTC chassis numbers. The 3rd vehicle in the exercise was very heavily rebuilt utilising the original chassis and body frame with updated running gear, it also gained a new registration.
Andrew
I worked for YTC when 153/4 were in for rebuild. The original chassis rails were retained, also no change to the O600 engine and keeping the original 4 speed gearbox made the outcome very predictable. There was no consideration given as to what type of service these buses would be used on. End result, underpowered and lack of top speed.
Trackyman
29/08/12 – 12:17
If ever there was a box on wheels then this was it. It must be amongst the top three ugliest buses ever. So bad were these that YTC adopted a modified livery for them to improve their looks but to no avail. Similar conversion with NCME bodies were very attractive in contrast.
Chris Hough
29/08/12 – 14:55
I agree, Chris, but what are your other two? They certainly did Roe’s reputation no good at all. [People would see the name Roe, not realising it was a PRV design.]
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 16:38
David my other personal two are Northern Counties Nottingham style bodies supplied to A1 Lytham and Stratford Blue and the ECW bodies supplied to South Yorks PTE complete with peaks fore and aft. I think Colchester also bought some like the Roe rebuilds how could they sink so low.
Chris Hough
29/08/12 – 18:56
I think the ECWs were, essentially, a SYPTE “design” improvement which (sorry, here I go again) ruined the balance and symmetry of the original. They also resulted in some atrocious blind spots which were cured by cutting holes in the pillars to provide better vision. Why on earth Colchester then bought them, goodness only knows. Did anyone else?
David Oldfield
13/05/15 – 06:50
I worked in the body shop at Yorkshire Traction for nearly 50 years from 1956. I had a hand in lifting the old single deck bodies off before the mechanics took over and did a full strip down. The Leyland PS1s were sent to Charles Roe and were fitted with light weight double deck bodies. They were fine for the first few years , but when the metalastic bearer end brackets became tired they creaked and groaned like an old sailing ship when cornering.The PD2s were sent to Northern Counties and the last batch went to Charles Roe, but were built to a design by Park Royal. They certainly looked a little strange. In later years on having passed my PSV all types driving test I had the pleasure of driving on service most of the Leyland conversions.I think of all the various types of buses I drove at Yorkshire Traction my favourite without doubt was the PD2.
Barrie Micklethwaite
18/06/15 – 16:45
To confirm the location, it is Lord Street, Huddersfield where most (all?) the Tracky and County routes terminated.
Tim Jackson
30/05/20 – 06:50
The comments about these re-bodied buses have made interesting reading, I drove these many times in the late 60`s and early 70`s, the crews called them “Banana Boxes”, among other things, and you certainly needed to be aware of what type of bus you were driving when it came to these, the body was very light, and when fully loaded they rolled alarmingly on bends, the Vacuum braking system needed thought too, nothing seemed to happen for ages when you pressed the brake, so stopping accurately needed advance planning to allow for they delay, like all the PD2s and PD3s, being half cab they were warm in winter, during the summer it was nice to ride about with the sliding cab door open, and the full window clipped back over the bonnet to get plenty of air, If memory serves me the PD1s had hinged doors and had to stay closed, but you could still open the window.
Ideal Service (R Taylor & Sons) 1959 Leyland Titan PD2 (on older Tiger PS1 chassis) Roe L27/28R
My thanks to Robert Gomersall for these excellent internal shots of a newly delivered Roe bodied Titan to R Taylor & Sons of Cudworth near Barnsley who along with H Wray & Sons of Hoyle Mill operated under the name of Ideal Service. Roberts mother was the daughter of R H Taylor who took over operations from his father R Taylor who started the business. Robert would like to know when R Taylor actually started the business, if you know please leave a comment. The lower deck is of a normal layout for a rear entrance double decker, but as this is a lowbridge vehicle it as a sunken gangway on the right hand side of the upper deck which can be seen quite clearly in the upper deck shot. The seats as can be seen are just two normal two seat units put side by side, looking closely at the shot it looks as if the right hand pair is set back a little, probably to aid passengers getting past from the left hand seats. I am not sure if there was ever a one piece four seat unit, if you know please leave a comment. The sunken gangway can also be seen upper left in the 2nd lower deck shot and people sitting in the seats underneath it had to be careful when getting up as you could quite easily end up with a nasty bump on the head. I think these shots are extremely good as there is a lot of people who will of never seen a lowbridge vehicle seating layout, thanks again Robert.
Photographs contributed by Robert Gomersall
Born and bred in lowbridge country, I imagined till the age of eight that a central aisle upstairs was for trolleybuses only. A family trip to London taught me otherwise, but I continue to defend the lowbridge design against all its critics: it survived in production for over forty years essentially to Leyland’s 1927 design. Reading Corporation’s two batches (1956-57) of Regent IIIs originally had 27 seats upstairs (six fours and a three) but were later upseated to 31 on top, with all the fours now staggered just as in the R. Taylor PD2. I think the main point was to discourage generously-upholstered mortals from claiming more than their allotted 17 inches of seat-width. Last week I was (silently) grumbling that lowbridge Roe-bodied buses never turn up at Southern rallies, as I wanted to see the internal details, and here we have Robert G’s superb shots! A prayer answered.
Ian Thompson
These buses look unusually uncluttered and spacious, minus stanchions. As for bench seats in the upper saloons of lowbridge buses, London Transport inherited six ST’s with bodies by Short Bros. of Rochester. These had a sunken gangway EITHER side and bench seats for THREE. It also had the Godstone STL’s which had one sunken gangway, but seats in alternate rows of THREE and FOUR. I never travelled on them, and, although they had rounded tops to the seats, I don’t know whether they were bench seats or not. LT’s few lowbridge D’s (Daimler CWA6’s) had a sunken gangway with bench seats for FOUR. The first batch came with austerity wooden slatted seats, which would have caused some instability in passengers when going around corners. Even on similar double seats, one rode by the seat of one’s pants (so to speak) around corners, I recall!
Chris Hebbron
Another operator sadly missed! I was fortunate enough to travel on the Ideal Service in the early 70’s although by then it was being operated by H Wray alone. These photos are interesting because I hadn’t realised that a new double decker had been purchased as late as 1959. Logically it should still have been operating in 1970 although I don’t believe Wray took over any of Taylors vehicles when they decided to cease operating. I remember walking down to Hoyle Mill from Barnsley a few times to have a look at Wray’s operation and it was seemingly just an open yard with an inspection pit, I don’t recall seeing any covered accommodation! I think at the end, Wray had 3 or 4 double deckers, (perhaps always so) I remember travelling on a lowbridge AEC Regent V/Park Royal (ex Western Welsh?) an early Lodekka (ex W Yorks) and the last vehicle purchased, a Dennis Loline/Alexander, this giving the service a (fairly) modern image at last but unfortunately not for long! I’m not sure but I think that Wray, unlike Taylor, never purchased a new vehicle, and in the last few years tried to make sure their buses were from ‘red’ fleets to avoid the cost of re-painting! I’d love to know what became of YWT 572 because I’m sure there would have been plenty of miles left in it when Taylor sold up.
Chris Barker
What magnificent pictures these are and greatly appreciated. The vehicle is obviously assembled from the same Roe components as Samuel Ledgard’s six AEC Regent Mark Vs in 1957 – the panels, windows and frames, seats etc being identical. The only differences appear to be, obviously, the lowbridge layout and the rather luxurious light fittings. Good naturedly though, I must contest Ian’s praise of the lowbridge layout – while it undoubtedly solved the problem of height clearances such vehicles were very difficult for conductors, especially tall ones like me, and tended to roll alarmingly to the nearside if heavily laden and on badly cambered roads. By the way, West Yorkshire Road Car Co Ltd also experimented briefly in the 1950s with staggered upper saloon seating on lowbridge ECW Bristol KSWs.
Chris Youhill
I was fortunate enough, at the weekend, to combine a family gathering with a visit to the Sheffield Rally. In turn I was able to travel on STD 1156 (PD2/30) bodied by my beloved C H Roe. It was superb, albeit highbridge, but in every other respect, bar one, like these interior shots. [It has platform doors and an emergency door.] The Leyland design was patented and could not originally be copied without buying a licence. Although, at that time, AEC did not have their own bodyworks, the blessed Mr Rackham had strong ideas about body design leading to certain stipulations for pre-war bodywork on AECs. Qs, therefore, like LTPB RTs after them, had very similar bodies regardless of Coachbuilder or operator. Likewise, Regents had the “Camel Hump” body for low-bridge operations. This was achieved by having gangways on both sides, three seats in a row and – conveniently – avoiding any infringement of the Leyland patent.
David Oldfield
Robert Taylor & Sons (Ideal Services) was taken over by the Yorkshire Traction. The Estate account shows Goodwill was £5700; Motor Vehicles £3025. Unfortunately it doesn’t itemise the vehicles sold.
Robert Gomersall
Just a couple of further points, a photograph of this vehicle in service appears on the Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group website, Buses in Barnsley section. It is not a PD2 but a re-bodied PS1. H Wray had one re-bodied in 1956 with a Roe body of Park Royal appearance which became KHE 528 and Taylor had this one done in 1959, both previously had Wilkes & Meade coach bodies. The earlier one was probably tagged on to a batch being done for Yorkshire Traction at the time. All of them were re-registered, maybe the Yorkshire Traffic Area was strict about such matters! Apparently this vehicle passed to H Wray in 1967 so presumably this was the year that Taylor ceased operation.
Chris Barker
I read somewhere that the staggered upstairs seating was a standard ECW option towards the end of traditional lowbridge vehicles (mainly KSWs I think). It was said to improve access, but I would have thought the reverse – inside passengers having to jiggle round the S-bend as well as clambering over the knees of the outside passengers (or more likely asking them to move out).
Stephen Ford
03/08/11 – 15:57
Anyone know if the operators which made up Ideal Service were ever involved in a proposal to extend through to Pontefract the no. 70 Sheffield – Upton service? This would have been a more logical terminus and would have required one extra bus. I worked for “Tracky” in the 70s and remember Ideal (by then , Wray only) running an ex-Bristol Omnibus Lodekka in the THW series. (However see above the comment about red fleets!)
Geoff Kerr
01/02/12 – 16:29
‘Yours’ Magazine Issue 133 (January 2012) has an interesting article written by a family member of Ideal Services (R H Taylor and Sons) complete with prints for those who are interested.
David Allen
02/02/12 – 09:10
Chris B, the re-registering of this fascinating vehicle is somewhat of a mystery as the Yorkshire Traffic Commissioners did not insist on the practice. I may be way out here, but I have a vague memory that if an operator wished to have a “prestigious” modern number the rebuilt vehicle had to have new chassis frames to be eligible, although the original number could be retained out of choice. Can anyone else remember such a ruling please ??
Chris Youhill
02/02/12 – 11:20
Chris Hebbron mentions how uncluttered the interior looks without stanchions and handrails. at Northern we were instructed not to allow standing passengers on coaches or DP’s because they didn’t have handrails, and if you look at the photo where the capacity is visible no mention is made of standing. Does anyone know if this was law or just Northern’s policy not to allow standing?
Ronnie Hoye
02/02/12 – 15:09
I believe Nottingham’s Roberts bodied AEC Regents had no stanchions. However the seats had a profiled back that was higher than these, and a grab-rail along the (straight) top which standees could hang on to. They allowed the usual maximum of 5 standing. I suspect that stanchions were not just for passenger convenience, but also provided a degree of bracing against bodyshell deformation. The Roberts bodies were of notoriously substantial build, and may not have needed this strengthening. I seem to remember that in the railway field the stanchions on the Class 150 DMUs figured in calculation of the bodyshell’s structural integrity.
Stephen Ford
02/02/12 – 17:23
I cannot remember stanchions in buses like this. I think you hung on to the seat back grab: perhaps there wasn’t room in a 7ft 6in body. You just walked “hand over hand” on the seat grabs down the aisle. Not only are the seats unusual, but finished in moquette: upstairs were often leather-type- I always thought because of ciggy burns and filthy overalls.
Joe
03/02/12 – 06:30
I’ve just noticed a most remarkable feature no doubt confined to the lowbridge version of this model of body. The lower saloon heater assembly is of greater width at the nearside to allow it to fit clear of the sunken gangway !!
Chris Youhill
03/02/12 – 10:33
Interesting observation, Joe. I can’t ever, down south, riding on any buses with leather/rexine seats upstairs (open-top and austerity ones excepted, of course). All were moquette. And London trams were the same. Yet there were plenty of dirty jobs in London. I suppose there were special floors ‘oop north’ta cater fer clogs, not to mention spittoons!! Seriously, I will say that it was disgusting to go upstairs in buses in those days – a smog you could cut through and the smell and yellow/brown ceilings. Ugh! If I recall, on single-deck buses, the smokers were confined to the rear half of the bus. Smoking was endemic. I recall the clip of the ‘white horse’d’ policeman incident at Wembley in the twenties. A huge cloud of cigarette smoke rose from the crowd! Amazing.
Chris Hebbron
03/02/12 – 15:22
A bit off-topic, but following on from Chris H, I heard a tale of a certain paint shop foreman at Eastleigh railway works, who was given a new paint specification for Southern suburban trains, requiring white ceilings. Foreman was a bit of a curmudgeon, and said they’d had cream for years, and as far as he was concerned they would have cream until he retired. After a while Southern Region complained, and asked why they weren’t getting their white ceilings. Said curmudgeon was called before the production manager to explain himself. “There’s no point in painting the ceilings white,” he said. “After a fortnight they turn cream anyway with the cigarette smoke.” “So,” replied the production manager, “You, in your infinite wisdom, decided they should have built-in smoke!”
Stephen Ford
04/02/12 – 05:31
It is possible although not evident in the photographs that there could have been a handrail running horizontally along the lower deck at the top edge of the sunken gangway. It wasn’t just standees that needed something to hang on to, don’t forget the poor conductor too! Each time I look at the pictures, I can’t help but make a comparison with South Yorkshire’s TWY 8 which was re-bodied around the same time and had an identical shell but with platform doors and superior seats. Two notable firsts for me last year were travelling on it and meeting Chris Y on the same day!
Chris Barker
04/02/12 – 08:48
Lucky you, Chris B. I had the privilege of meeting Chris Y last year at Dunsfold – but the riding opportunities were very poor. Hope the return to Wisley improves that this year – but I gather there is no link with the (new) museum!
David Oldfield
29/03/12 – 08:23
In an earlier post Chris B mentioned that he thought that Wrays may not have had any covered accommodation at their site. I can recollect that from the late 1940’s until the 1960’s when I left Barnsley they had a garage on the left hand side at the bottom of Lord Street which could hold two vehicles side by side. Whether the roof was high enough to hold double deckers in the garage I am afraid I cannot remember but I think that it did. I think they also garaged their coal lorry there.
David Galley
29/03/12 – 17:54
Chris Hebbron jokingly refers to the use of spittoons on northern deckers. Interestingly many companies in the West Riding had notices on the upper deck forbidding spitting. Many of the Norths industries such as mining and textiles caused long term lung damage and TB was still an ever present in the thirties.
Chris Hough
16/01/13 – 13:44
Copyright Ian Lynas
Sorry to be a bit late with this contribution but I’ve only just found this website and what a great site it is. So many memories that I cant concentrate on work. However, the interior views of YWT 572 were superb so my photo of the outside is a case of having a really bad camera (an Italian-made Bencini.) Italians are good at most things but cameras was not one of them. This shot was taken in 1967 on an expedition with (I think) the late Jim Pass and Glyn Weigh from Oldham to Wakefield and was taken in South Elmsall (Emsull to the locals) on a trip that opened our eyes to the likes of South Yorkshire Motors, United Services and Ideal (Wray of Hoyle Mill and Taylor of Cudworth). I was told that YWT had a Lydney body but as it was built in 1959 as a rebody of a Leyland Tiger PS1, maybe it had a Lydney body in its first life but Lydney went out of business in the early 1950’s. I think YWT 572 under its previous guise had a Wilkes & Meade body but stand corrected if not.
Ian Lynas
16/01/13 – 14:47
Nice to see the outside of the bus. I would imagine that the white flash on the front was a belated and modest attempt at 1930’s streamlining!
Chris Hebbron
16/01/13 – 15:24
It’s got an interesting set of headlight/fog lights
Andrew Beever
16/01/13 – 16:36
Yes, I had one of those Bencini things, too Ian, a Comet S. In fact, as a collector of old cameras, I have one now, plus a couple of the bigger Koroll. I agree entirely with your assessment of them. They were mediocre both mechanically and optically. As for the array of head and foglights, this reminds us that fogs back in those days really were pea soupers.
Roger Cox
16/01/13 – 16:39
When Robert sent me the interior shots he also sent me a scan of a photocopy of a shot of YWT 572 when it was just leaving Roe, it wasn’t very good but with a touch of manipulation you can see the original headlight/foglight arrangement.
Peter
17/01/13 – 14:44
I see that Chris Barker has said above that he did not think that any of Taylor’s vehicles passed to Wray, but later stated that YWT 572 actually did. It is my own recollection that most of the Taylor vehicles did indeed pass to Wray (despite the fact that Taylor didn’t actually sell out to Wray, of course), and that Wray finished up with more ex-Taylor vehicles than the residue of their own existing stock. If, as is inferred above, the Taylor fleet initially passed with the business to Yorkshire Traction, the implication is that the vehicles were then passed on to Wray. The relationship between Ideal and Yorkshire Traction seems to have been easy-going, to say the least – on at least two occasions YTC vehicles passed to Ideal, which then proceeded to continue to run them in YTC colours. The Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group website to which Chris refers actually has an entire page of photos of Ideal vehicles, and it can be found here www.jsh1949.co.uk/ The pics are of variable quality, however, and the one of YWT 572 is only average.
David Call
19/03/14 – 07:42
YWT 572 did indeed pass to Wrays along with tiger cub TWX963 both used by them TWX later passed Phipipson Goldthorpe for use on its Thurnscoe – Sheffield service
Garry
03/07/14 – 07:20
It would seem that the Ideal service from Barnsley to Pontefract began in 1923 and that in the early 1930s there were five operators in the partnership:- Taylor of Cudworth, Wray of Hoyle Mill, Lancashire & Yorkshire Motors Ltd, Hartley and Wilson (these three based at Shafton). Lancs & Yorks acquired the Hartley and Wilson shares and was itself taken over by Yorkshire Traction in 1934. I assume Tracky’s Shafton depot was inherited from them.
Geoff Kerr
04/11/14 – 06:37
I lived in Upton, near Pontefract from 1940-1985. I regularly travelled on the Ideal buses, either to Barnsley or to Pontefract. I recall one particularly snowy winters eve, probably 1958/59, when the bus was having a problem negotiating the steep hill out of South Elmsall. Passengers were asked if they would mind alighting and giving a helpful push to get the bus to the top. Several of us young men did so and the bus made it. At the top of the hill we got back on and continued our journey.
Albert Jones
25/11/17 – 08:14
I really love to see interior views of vehilces from this period. Interesting how the upperdeck lowbridge layout has pairs of doube seats rather than the four abreast single type. I like the “cable” pattern moquette as used by York Pullman
Tony J Griffin
15/01/19 – 06:52
I can remember back in the 1950s an outing that had 2 busses. One was a low bridge type and the other a normal one. Unfortunately, there was a low bridge about a mile down the road and the driver of the standard bus had forgotten that it wasn’t a low bus. It pealed about 10ft of the roof off like a sardine can. Fortunately, no one was injured.
David M
15/01/19 – 08:51
I’d like to add to a couple of points above, both coincidentally contained in Chris Barker’s posts. First of all the PS1 which was rebodied for Wray reappeared as KHE 526 rather than KHE 528. Earlier Chris B had commented that he didn’t think that Wray had ever purchased a new vehicle. In fact ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ credits Wray as having had three vehicles new, only one fewer than Taylor. The three were: AHE 110 Albion CX19/Pickering B34F, new 1945 (later to Carmichael of Glenboig) AHE 987 Leyland Tiger PS1/Wilks & Meade C33F, new 1947 – this was the one later rebodied as KHE 526 DHE 40 Leyland Tiger PS1/Cawood B35F, new 1950 Note the correct spelling of Wilks & Meade. Taylor’s ‘new’ vehicles are probably more memorable since they mostly dated from 1952-57 and therefore lasted well into the ‘enthusiast’ era.
David Call
16/01/19 – 07:23
Just a few additional thoughts. As Chris Hebbron commented, the white flash on the front of YWT572 was clearly a late addition, since it obviously wasn’t delivered like that. In fact, it is almost certainly a consequence of the arrival of CCK668, the ex-Ribble/Delaine Brush-bodied Leyland PD2, which also features on this site, and which didn’t come to Taylor’s until 1966. Do you think that the white flash was an attempt by Taylor’s to set their own vehicles apart from those of Wray’s? Certainly, there seems to be evidence that the relationship between Taylor’s and Wray’s wasn’t what it might have been. YWT572 and CCK668 may have been the only dds in use with Taylor’s at the time, since, unlike Wray’s, they did make significant use of saloons. Because Bus Lists On The Web quotes Taylor’s as having received four vehicles new and Wray’s only three doesn’t mean that they were actually the only new vehicles, in fact I’m aware that both operators received new vehicles in the 1930s. An additional vehicle for Taylor’s is actually listed, but it’s credited to ‘Taylor’, rather than ‘Taylor, Cudworth’ so you wouldn’t find it unless you were to know what you were looking for. Chris Y, I don’t think that the Traffic Commissioners had any say in whether or not a rebuilt vehicle received a new registration, it was down to the registration authority, and the latter did have varying standards. The link I gave in 2013 to the ‘Ideal’ page on the HPTG website doesn’t now seem to work, so here’s a new one. www.jsh1949.co.uk/IDEAL David M, are you prepared to say which operator was involved in the low bridge incident you mentioned? It clearly wasn’t Taylor’s or Wray’s, since neither operated highbridge vehicles.
David Call
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/11/20 – 07:01
I have found H Wray jointly operating the 46 Pontefract – Barnsley service with Yorkshire Traction in the 1969 tracky timetable. You can see the joint timetable here – https://timetableworld.com/
I have been having a rummage through a few pictures and came across this one. Whilst it is not the best photograph in the world, I am sure it is of historical interest. The vehicle on the right is one of Oldham Corporations 1958 “Tin front” Titans fleet number 443, it was transferred to SELNEC on November 1969, and re-numbered 5343 in that fleet. In this photograph it is still in the Crimson and White lined out livery, which Oldham used until 1966, when replaced with Pommard and Devon Cream. It is photographed in Lever Street Manchester, (destination blinds showed Stephenson Square), operating the service 13 to Uppermill via Oldham and Scouthead. This service was a Limited Stop service operated jointly with Manchester Corporation Transport. What is interesting with the photograph is that I caught a Maynes of Manchester AEC Regent operating on their service between Droylsden and Manchester Dale Street. Unfortunately the speed of the bus has made the registration unreadable, and there is no record on the rear of the photograph. But it looks like one of their AEC Regent V, with Park Royal H41/32R bodies.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
Aah, my favourite vehicle from my favourite batch of Oldham’s buses. These PD2s were superb inside and out, but sadly got more and more disfigured over the years with moquette seats replaced by vinyl ones and the original elaborately lined-out livery changing first to an unlined version, then pommard and cream and finally, for some, SELNEC’s orange and white. 443 escaped some of these treatments. As the batch were being worked through for re-certification when twelve years old the policy was changed so the earlier examples received orange and a five year ticket. 443 was done later and only got three years in total. To cut down on costs it wasn’t fully repainted but tidied up in pommard. This work was done at Stockport and as a consequence the original interior survived largely intact. It survived a bit longer as it was used as a skid pan bus at Hyde Road for a while after withdrawal. I have a photo of it there carrying the grille (and therefore registration) off 442 – very confusing! The Mayne’s bus will be on the Audenshaw to Dale Street service – the Droylsden service was numbered 46 and more significantly, ran to Stevenson Square, although both traversed this section of Lever Street. It can be identified as 6974 ND, a 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA with Park Royal H41/32R body of a particularly ugly design. The photograph will have been taken just before quarter past the even hour, as that is when Oldham’s bus on the 13 left, the other bus after the odd hour being a Manchester one. North Western worked the opposite way round to Uppermill via Lees on the 14, then returning via Scouthead to Manchester as a 13.
David Beilby
06/11/11 – 17:03
A close colleague of the (A) Mayne’s bus is already on this site at this link. Doesn’t it look like a Bridgemaster – & the height is not all perspective, has it – no dome?
Joe
07/11/11 – 07:39
It’s exactly the same as the second Bridgemaster body – except, obviously, for the height. If you mean does it have a flat roof profile, the answer is yes.
David Oldfield
07/11/11 – 07:40
As David B said, the Park Royal bodies on that batch of Maynes Regent Vs were particularly ugly, and they were the last ones bought before Maynes switched to East Lancs. As an enthusiast I have always liked to think there is a connection between those two facts, but I have no evidence for this.
Peter Williamson
07/11/11 – 12:11
Well the East Lancs bodies were a distinct improvement aesthetically – but were they East Lancs or Neepsend?
David Oldfield
08/11/11 – 06:40
I agree with David Beilby, these Oldham PD2’s always exuded an air of quality with their comfortable interiors and lined out livery. I rode on them regularly on the 9 (Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton) and 24/90 (Rochdale- Manchester) routes. On the 90 Limited Stop service which ran non-stop from Royton into Manchester they could turn in a fair pace along Broadway if they got the many sets of traffic lights in their favour. Regarding the ugly Park Royal bodies on the Maynes AEC, I did once read somewhere that Southampton turned away from Park Royal and moved to East Lancs after being very unimpressed with the abominations Park Royal inflicted on them on both Leyland PD2 and AEC Regent V chassis using the Bridgemaster derived design. I don’t know if this was true or even if operators cared about the appearance of their buses from a design point of view. Perhaps some did.
Philip Halstead
08/11/11 – 10:45
Well Philip, they certainly forsook the same PRV abominations for East Lancs/Neepsend – whatever the reason. [Swindon, Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woolen also had versions – the latter two by Roe – not to mention the first ACV Atlanteans, again built by Roe.]
David Oldfield
10/11/11 – 07:37
Similar very ugly Park Royal bodies were bought on a batch of PD2s by Southampton. These seemed incredibly top heavy due to their short length.
Chris Hough
10/11/11 – 07:38
I am sure that the Southampton story is true. Possibly not all, but certainly many municipal General Managers had definite ideas about the standards of vehicle design and appearance. Inevitably, the name of Geoff Hilditch springs to mind, but he was by no means alone in holding such views, and the municipal GMs held regular get togethers at which opinions were frankly exchanged. I have some Southampton pictures that I will submit in due course.
Roger Cox
10/11/11 – 07:39
To answer David’s question, Maynes had two Regent Vs bodied by East Lancs in 1964 and three by Neepsend in 1965.
Peter Williamson
10/11/11 – 17:02
Thanks, Peter
David Oldfield
20/12/11 – 06:40
I too agree with David Beilby’s comments about the Leyland/Roe Titans 429-452. I remember riding on them to and from college/Oldham Music Centre, on the 9 (409) bus route (437,443 and 449) in the mid 1960’s when they still carried their original livery. Around 1964/5 I recollect seeing a few examples on our route (B, Fitton Hill-Middleton Junction), and off their usual routes. It was the elaborate lined livery which caught my eye, as the usual buses on this route were unlined by that time or indeed like Leylands 388-407 and 413-418 (NBU 488-507 and NBU 513-518), never had been. I used to take notes of the bus numbers over a period of twelve months in 1964/5. I rode on 432,433,438,446,447,448,451 and 452 – to and from school in Fitton Hill. Since they were used primarily on the trunk routes I couldn’t understand why; even so, with their increased seating capacity of 65 they were a welcome sight. By this time they were looking tired (435,440 and 452 particularly so) and before long a simplified livery was applied-what a disappointment! By mid July 1966 they were introduced to our route in number, having been cascaded from the trunk routes when the Leyland Atlantean invasion gained ground.
I Would like to contribute the above photo of Oldham Corporation 451 taken after its first repaint – so minus the waistrail white stripe and the intricate lining out (abandoned when these vehicles were repainted in 1965). The interior paintwork was changed also from the original hammered metal finish to a plain cream finish on the majority of the buses. The first example of this batch to receive a repaint was 439, in January 1965, after substantial repairs following a serious front end collision the previous summer, when it had ploughed into a terraced house on Manchester Road whilst operating on route 98. The Oldham Chronicle carried a story with a photo of 439 embedded in the house with its crumpled bodywork surrounded a pile of bricks. No one was injured apparently. I well remember riding on it from school to home one evening in January 1965 on the B (later 21) route.
Photograph and Copy contributed by David Butterworth
These buses were a great favourite of mine. The Roe bodies were very well appointed and in the original livery with the red lining out they looked very classy. I rode on them frequently on the 9 route from Rochdale travelling to Watersheddings to watch the rugby. They were extremely comfortable and smooth riding. Oldham had a good team in those days and invariably beat Rochdale Hornets in the local derbies. I agree the buses lost a bit of their class in the simplified livery, initially retaining the original maroon to be replaced later by the Pommard and Cream livery which Oldham adopted up to absorption into SELNEC. I understand there were problems with the maroon fading which led to the ultimate change to the purpley red shade of Pommard. Like most of the Manchester area half-cabs they didn’t look too good in the SELNEC orange and white. They had a fair turn of speed and were much faster than Rochdale’s Gardner engined Regent V’s which often operated the Rochdale share of the 9 route which was jointly operated by Ashton, Oldham and Rochdale Corporations. They also worked on the 24/90 Limited Stop service between Rochdale and Manchester where they could show their paces to good effect, particularly on the 90 which ran non-stop between Royton and Manchester. The Roe bodied examples of Oldham’s large fleet of PD2’s always seemed to be a cut above the Northern Counties and Crossley bodied examples and there was definitely no contest with the Metro-Cammell Orions which were positively spartan by comparison. The photo also shows us that Oldham was among the small band of operators that used route letters for some of their services. To set the hare running I can bring to mind others as Middlesbrough, Portsmouth and Exeter. I am sure someone will soon add some more!
Philip Halstead
23/01/12 – 10:15
Yorkshire Woollen District used route letters on their Dewsbury area tram replacement services.
John Stringer
24/01/12 – 05:57
Lettered bus routes sometimes came about when the bus routes came along in conjunction with the trams. The trams had the numbers, so the buses got the letters. I’m intrigued about a reverse situation with Cheltenham, which always had route numbers, tram and bus, but, at some point, in recent years, changed over to letters. Bizarre!
Chris Hebbron
24/01/12 – 15:45
Mexborough and Swinton used route letters until the trolleybuses were phased out in March, 1961, at which time they switched over to numbers. Rotherham Corporation ran jointly on the trolleybus routes to Mexborough and Conisborough, the Rotherham saloons showing either 8 or 9, and the Mexboro’ Sunbeams ‘A’ or ‘B’ respectively, until the changeover.
Dave Careless
24/01/12 – 15:46
I seem to remember (from 1956) that Great Yarmouth had a mix of lettered and numbered routes. I think all the lettered ones went to Gorlestone, but not all Gorlestone services were lettered ones. I have the distinct memory that route 3 started from Newtown on the northern edge of Yarmouth, and terminated at “Gorlestone (Green Ace)” – presumably a hostelry!
Stephen Ford
25/01/12 – 13:14
Middlesbrough Corporation also used route letters. Teesside Municipal Transport carried on this tradition for a number of years.
Stephen Bloomfield
20/02/12 – 13:38
Cheltenham switched to letters in the late 1980s when the Gloucester and Swindon operation was separated from Bristol. Both Gloucester and Cheltenham started minibus operations under the Metro name, and to avoid confusion Gloucester went for numbered routes and Cheltenham went for lettered. The one Cheltenham town route that kept a number for a while longer was the Prestbury-town-Coronation Square route 2 (which had full sized buses), but that eventually became the A.
James McLaren
20/02/12 – 17:12
Thx, James, for the answer to my question. A strange decision, really, since that neither towns’ local services ever strayed beyond their boundaries before or after minibuses came along. Still, it makes for variety. Does anyone know of any other bus companies currently using lettered routes?
Chris Hebbron
21/02/12 – 07:15
The Hebden Bridge local services supported by Metro and operated by Tyrer Tours use letters A – E. These were introduced in 2003 when First commenced operating the revised services with Optare Solos and Aleros supplied by Metro.
Ian Wild
21/02/12 – 07:18
Stagecoach Devon’s Exeter city services are still designated by letters, and it seems that to a large extent they are the initial letters of the suburbs to which they run – e.g. P – Pennsylvania; A – Alphington.
Stephen Ford
12/01/13 – 16:15
Try Preston corporation buses. Fp was Farringdon Park and there would have been others.
We don’t seem to have any colour pictures of Oldham buses on the site, so I am submitting these two shots, taken early in PTE days. By the time these pictures were taken, the Oldham livery had been further simplified by the elimination of the red stripe above the lower deck windows. Oldham used a distinctive shade of red that was usually described as “pommard” after the wine of that name. PBU 947, No. 447, was a PD2/30 of the 1958 batch of 24 with Roe bodies, though my understanding is that the seating was H37/28R. Perhaps these buses were reseated at some stage.
Copyright Roger Cox
NBU 500, No 400, was a member of a batch of 20 PD2/20 delivered in 1957 with Roe H33/27R bodies. The year 1965 was a significant one to Oldham. In that year a Ministry of Transport inspection led to the discovery of major mechanical faults on 97 buses, and the Corporation had to hire in around 45 buses from sympathetic neighbouring municipalities.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
04/03/12 – 17:08
Good to see Oldham represented again and with typical vehicles – Roe-bodied Leylands. If these pictures are taken in SELNEC days it must be early 1970 as the fleet very rapidly lost the coat-of-arms and fleetname upstairs, all had lost these by July 1970. 447 got repainted orange and white in January 1971 and was the last Roe-bodied PD2 to be so treated. Unlike the earlier examples it didn’t receive a full overhaul and only lasted until July 1973. 400 was renumbered 5300 in October 1970 but despite running in increasingly shabby pommard and cream it outlasted 447, being withdrawn in March 1974. Your photos allow the two batches to be contrasted. I could usually identify with some confidence which batch an oncoming vehicle was from but even now I struggle to be able to explain why. One difference visible here which worked as a general rule was the painted ventilators but like all good rules it had exceptions. Other differences were the staircase window which was never fitted to the PBUs but quite a few NBUs lost this feature. When new the NBUs had pull-down half-drop ventilators which were a disaster. These were replaced by sliders which had a much thinner bottom rail than on the PBUs, making them less conspicuous. You can just about make out the vestigial framework for the half-drops on 400, which remained in situ. The 59 was a joint Manchester and Oldham service from Manchester via Middleton to Oldham and Shaw. Taking 74 minutes from one end to the other it was certainly Oldham’s longest (in running time) route and I think Manchester’s as well.
David Beilby
04/03/12 – 17:26
I rather liked the company name/coat of arms positioned where it is on these buses. I have to say, I don’t think that I’ve ever seen a ‘tin-front’ like these. Was it unique to these vehicles or Roe?
Chris Hebbron
05/03/12 – 07:42
The 59 was an incredibly circuitous route which left Manchester in almost the exact opposite direction to Oldham and Shaw which are north east of the city. It headed north west towards Bury along Cheetham Hill Road then turned towards Middleton via Heaton Park and Rhodes. It had almost ‘boxed the compass’ before it got to Middleton. The no. 2 from Stevenson Square to Newhey, which passed Shaw (Wrens Nest) the eventual terminus of the 59 would do the journey in around 40 minutes I would guess. In fairness to the 59 it was not intended to attract end to end passengers but provided very useful inter-urban links across areas to the north of Manchester. To answer Chris the unusual ‘tin front’ on these PD2’s was a retro-fit by Oldham after a few years in service. They were delivered with the standard Leyland BMMO front but sometime in the early 1960’s (from memory and I would bow to confirmation on this) the centre grill sections were replaced with the design shown in the photographs. In my view it was a great improvement. I think the replacement section was a glass-fibre moulding but again would welcome a second opinion on this. The failure by the MOT Inspectors of such a large slice of Oldham’s fleet caused quite a stir at the time and was widely covered in the ordinary (non-transport)press and media. In today’s blame culture I am sure heads would have been called for. I don’t ever recall the press reporting anybody at Oldham ‘falling on his sword’. Does anyone know if there any such actions taken?
Philip Halstead
05/03/12 – 07:44
This was Oldham’s own GRP (fibreglass being a trade name) front which they developed. The original one was flat like the standard BMMO grille but I suspect this was not stiff enough so the slight protrusion was added. Oldham were quite active in GRP moulding and also did the side pieces, the design of that varying over the years. The revised front grille became quite universal. From recollection the last bus with a BMMO grille was 453, withdrawn in 1970. They had been in the minority for some years before then.
David Beilby
05/03/12 – 07:45
The “kidney” window in the staircase panel on Roe bodies, which I believe was part of the safety staircase designed by Leeds City Transport general manager Mr. W. Vane Morland in 1935, was a common feature on many Roe bodies up to about 1954 but seemed to fall out of favour after then, so it is a bit of a surprise to see Oldham Corporation still taking them as late as 1957. Does anybody know if these where the last ones built or did other operators have any delivered later?
Eric
05/03/12 – 07:46
The tin fronts were Oldham-built replacements for damaged originals, and for my money a great improvement on them. Combined with the Roe body they even make the pommard livery look respectable, which is quite an achievement as it was not generally well-liked.
Peter Williamson
05/03/12 – 07:48
Beautiful Roe bodies and a distinctive livery, but I think I preferred their neighbours in blue at Ashton. I think you are correct, Chris – but I think it was an Oldham rather than Roe front. PS …..see previous black and white post of 451 with standard Leyland tin front!
David Oldfield
05/03/12 – 12:33
Eric, I think you’re correct. Sheffield’s 1955 Regent IIIs had the window but the 1957 and 1958 PD2s didn’t and neither didn’t any subsequent Roe bodies.
David Oldfield
05/03/12 – 17:53
Leeds first AEC Regent Vs of 1956-57 had the staircase window and were the last Leeds buses delivered with this feature. In the mid fifties all Leeds MCW bodies also had a staircase window this was a narrow slit like vertical affair.
Chris Hough
06/03/12 – 08:22
Strange to say, the staircase window reappeared in Sheffield with the front entrance Regent Vs, “Sheffield” Park Royals and then the “Sheffield/PRV standard” 33′ Atlanteans and Fleetlines – but all with tinted glass.
David Oldfield
06/03/12 – 12:27
Ah, the tinted glass would be the then modern equivalent of ‘decency boards’ protecting the modesty of Victorian/Edwardian ladies. The offside straight staircase’d London General/Transport ST’s and later LT’s had glazed windows down the whole length of the offside when built, but, over the years, the rearmost pane was replaced by a painted pane. One imagines voyeurs waiting opposite bus stops for the sight of a trim ankle, or more titillating, a calf! It all seems so amusing nowadays.
Chris Hebbron
06/03/12 – 15:22
Am I right in saying in connection with the staircase window was the Roe safety staircase. This had a flat landing halfway up the staircase which in theory would prevent someone rolling in to the road. Did anybody get saved by this?
Philip Carlton
07/03/12 – 08:40
The PBU batch of Leyland Titan buses (419-462) were distinctive in that they carried the Leyland winged badge until repainted in 1964/5. The number plates were located higher up the original tin fronts (above air vents) than on earlier batches also. The Leyland/Roe vehicles (429-452) featured decorative beading, painted white, aside the two upper red stripes which resulted in slightly narrower ones than on, for example, the 388-407 (NBU batch) To the critical eye, another distinctive features were angled front saloon windows, rather than horizontal as on 388-407. The side window vents were polishes aluminium which also made them stand out as mentioned earlier by David Beilby.
D. Butterworth
07/03/12 – 15:17
There is always so much to learn on this site. Until Chris Hebbron mentioned the image of a voyeur trying to catch the sight of a calf mounting the stairs of an ST/LT, I had never appreciated that London Transport permitted young farm animals to use the upper saloon.
John Stringer
07/03/12 – 16:12
Well, John, if they wanted to smoke they would have to, wouldn’t they?!
Stephen Ford
07/03/12 – 16:53
The correct name for the livery is Pommard and Devon Cream, and was introduced in 1966, after the very short lived ‘Blue’ livery experiment with NBU 502 (Fleet No 402). Mention is made of the positioning of the Fleet Name and Crest. This was done as a cost saving measure to save replacements (of the crest) when accidents occurred to the lower side panels and replacements had to be re-fixed. I also remember that in the Paint Shop (always an interesting place, supervised by the Foreman Sam Bardsley), that there were replacement lower deck panels painted and varnish ready for quick replacement by the body men. Again this was so vehicles spent less time off the road after lower panel accident damage. Mention is made of the Ministry of Transport fleet check in 1965. I started at OCPTD in 1968, as Junior Works Clerk and the ‘Fleet Check’ was still being talked about even then. Many of the systems which I worked on had been brought about after that, and procedures in the workshops and the Depot had been tightened up. Philip says ‘did heads roll’ well YES they did, but it was never made public, I will not name names even though it is now 47 years ago, they could still be around.
Stephen Howarth
07/03/12 – 16:57
The Roe bodied PBU’s also had a more upright front profile when viewed side on than the NBU’s. Obviously this was necessary to get the extra row of four seats in to give 37 seats on the upper deck against the 33 on the NBU’s.
Philip Halstead
08/03/12 – 07:09
Nice ones, John & Stephen F. My comment was even more amusing than I thought! And, Stephen H, thx for the reason behind the fleet name/crest not being on the lower panels – a sensible variance.
Chris Hebbron
09/03/12 – 17:25
Interestingly, around 1970 the Leyland PD2’s reappeared on certain trunk/express routes in all day service having earlier been relegated to other duties in preference to Leyland Atlantean operation. There are photographs available of 402 – NBU 502 (the blue bus) and 430, PBU 930 on service 9 (Ashton to Rochdale) and Leylands 402 and 437 on the OTS route- Hollinwood Lees/Grotton. The previous years (from 1965 had seen Atlantean operation only on the O/T (27/28) routes, I seem to remember. I have photographs of 461 and forward entranced Leyland PD3 101 on the 98 (Manchester to Waterhead) service around 1970, after a long period dominated by the Atlanteans. Indeed when 131-135 were obtained in February 1966 they were put to work immediately on this route, quickly followed by 136-147 later that year. In April 1970 our local route (21) was converted to OPO with the arrival of dual door Atlanteans 183 to 187. Twelve months later Selnec liveried 188 to 199 arrived and many of these buses could be noted on the route besides the earlier Atlanteans 178 to 182. This marked the end of the PD2’s on the route. For some reason 191 and 192 ended up in Ashton bus depot! Obviously transferred on delivery, but they later appeared in Oldham.
D. Butterworth
15/03/12 – 09:30
Further to my previous comments regarding the Leyland Atlanteans which replaced the PD2s on many routes, the numbers allocated were 5183 – 5199 in the SELNEC, (Southern) Fleet allocation, which would have been OLDHAM’S 183 – 199.
D. Butterworth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/09/12 – 19:53
I was a driver on Oldham Buses from 1961 & through the 60’s, was quite surprised by photo’s and comments, particularly the 1965 shot after the ministry man came into do his worse. Interestingly, we then drove many buses far worse than our own. The Blue Livery was sponsored by the Egg Marketing Board. Which I believe were given that “Go to work on an Egg” advert printed on the 2 buses with the fleet numbers 401 & 402. The then manager Harry Taylor flirted with idea of the livery but it was unsuccessful. Then the Atlanteans, Selnec etc etc. I moved on to other things and some time later was a HGV & PSV examiner based at Heywood HGV Centre. A local firm had bought 3 PD1 fleet numbers 264 & I think 266 & 268. Not the easiest to teach on. Happy days!
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1953 Leyland PD2/12 Roe HBB56R
Westwood Bus Station, Scarborough, photographed whilst on a family holiday in 1966. In the foreground 1953 Roe-bodied Leyland PD2/12 608 (NRH 219) is loading passengers for Bridlington, whilst behind lurks 1963 front-entrance Bridgemaster 749 (3749 RH). Opposite, laying over before snarling its way to Driffield, is 1960 Metro-Cammell-bodied Tiger Cub 689 (6689 KH). What would Health & Safety officialdom make nowadays of buses loading passengers whilst parked with their off sides against the platforms, I wonder? 608 was withdrawn in 1969, and 749 in 1976 – both passing to North’s, the dealer, and later for scrap. 689 was withdrawn in 1972 and fared a little better, being sold on by North’s along with the rest of the batch to Irish operator Sureline of Lurgan. Happy Days! Now where did I park my time-machine?
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
05/04/12 – 06:50
Your comment about buses loading with their off sides against the platforms reminds me of Lower Mosley Street Bus Station in Manchester. In particular I remember the evening rush hour, when elderly North Western Atkinsons (inter alia) which had been sitting in the depot all day, would sit there with their smoky exhausts blowing straight into a waiting room full of people.
Peter Williamson
05/04/12 – 09:26
The ordeal of waiting passengers being nearly asphyxiated by exhaust fumes is by no means confined to bus stations these days – since the widespread adoption of one way streets the same experience can now be freely enjoyed in most towns and cities, especially when traffic is at a standstill in peak periods.
Chris Youhill
05/04/12 – 09:28
Oh, John, please leave room for me in your time machine! In fact, it would be best if it could take the form of a Beverly Bar ‘decker, (or even a fleet of them), to make room for all the readers of this site who would want to join you. (Bags me a seat upstairs). Loading offside parked buses was hardly the best arrangement, and I guess there must have been accidents, but all the staff would have known the potential for them and would have been sensible enough to take proper care, I’m sure. On the question of exhaust fumes, (Peter Ws comment), we rarely used the Westwood Bus Station, but the joy, as a lad, of drinking in EY diesel fumes at Bridlington bus station, (especially after a shower), is one of my most cherished childhood memories.
Roy Burke
Myriad were the diesel flavoured Bus Station/Depots in the Heyday. Without thinking – Kingston LT; Brixham (and other) Devon General. (Name your own). I have a great love for the Yorkshire Coast – especially Scarborough – and agree that indigo and primrose rules, but give me STD cream and blue, SUT red and grey and CCT green and cream. I may be prejudiced, but I will keep the flag flying for South Yorkshire and North Derbyshire. [NB, I’m too young to remember classic EMMS livery!]
David Oldfield
05/04/12 – 18:11
It always struck me that bus station bays from which buses have to reverse out (standard these days) represent a far more hazardous arrangement than the drive through type. Strange that it’s allowed, bearing in mind that reversing a bus at all seems to be frowned upon everywhere else. Mounting a back-loader from a pavement on wrong side wasn’t really a big deal, provided the conductor kept watch. Yes please, save me a place too John – front nearside downstairs if possible – a good balance of view ahead and aural delight.
Stephen Ford
05/04/12 – 18:13
Gentlemen.. please may I have a seat on your time machine? I share your memories of the “aroma” of diesel fumes which always signalled the start of another adventure..a ride on a a previously unseen bus to tick off in my Ian Allan book was the best! A warm, sunny day gave the best effect. Then I also fondly recall the excitement of riding on brand new, first day out Bristol KSW/Lodekka’s etc…the inside filled with the scent of new paint, new upholstery and sometimes the engine was still “running in” so emitted thin blue smoke from the exhaust to confirm it was Brand New! Upstairs so clean and bright before being ruined by a million Woodbines..my mother would never ride upstairs except when the bus was new or freshly repainted. It’s drifting from the subject but John’s simple picture brings back lots of memories from 1966. Thank you.
Richard Leaman
06/04/12 – 07:39
Re my posting under the recent Hebble Photo and offside loading – I hadn’t considered the exhaust fumes – however I suppose it softened us all up for the top deck smokers’ fug !
Farmer G
06/04/12 – 07:40
As a conductor and driver on EYMS in 1966/7 we normally arrived 30mins before departure then went across road for a cuppa only to arrive back at the bus to find it had magically filled with passengers and yes the platform was way high when parked that way. However in 1967 they got us to park the other way round much better for the passengers but the driver had a hard pull right back onto the road no power steering in them days, but very enjoyable days
Ken Wragg
06/04/12 – 07:41
John What a superb photograph! One question – 608 appears to have a raised advert panel between the two upper cream bands; was it a very early illuminated advert?
Bob Gell
06/04/12 – 07:41
Comments about exhaust fumes reminds me of as a teenager in the 40s and early 50s in Killermont Street bus station in Glasgow waiting for the East Kilbride 70 or 71 Central SMT, being subjected to the fumes of the Edinburgh SMT`s elderly TD5s in the next platform.
Jim Hepburn
06/04/12 – 07:42
I’m in complete agreement with Stephen Ford about bus stations which require reversing movements to exit. I don’t think this model has to be adhered to because South Yorkshire PTE, to it’s everlasting credit, has built excellent drive through stations at Sheffield, Meadowhall, Rotherham and Doncaster. In Derby, the City Council has provided a reverse off bus station which is perhaps the worst example of it’s kind in England. The vehicle area is insufficient which causes conflicting movements and vehicles entering are continually blocked by those trying to exit. There have been many minor scrapes since it opened but it’s new and therefore criticism is not allowed!
Chris Barker
06/04/12 – 09:25
I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen Ford and Chris B – if I had my way “reversing off the stand” bus stations would be banished. The “state of the art” one in Leeds has been the scene of many disasters since it opened some twenty years ago. The tiny one in Otley is similarly hazardous. I have personally experienced years of difficulty in the Leeds one, where our stands 5/6 had appalling lack of available view when reversing on left lock – fast incoming vehicles (speed limit routinely ignored by many) could easily disappear from view as they swept through a right hand near U turn. Another really unbelievable feature is that intending passengers sit or stand in their admittedly comfy concourse behind glass windows just waiting for an out of control vehicle to ram the frontage – this has happened at least twice in Leeds, and the subsequently installed “crash bars” would be of limited effect in a serious case.
Chris Youhill
06/04/12 – 15:27
Chris Y, this brings to mind the mutually known, erstwhile Vicar Lane bus station in Leeds, where West Yorkshire and Samuel Ledgard used to perform similar reversals. However, the fundamental difference was the presence of the conductor on the back platform giving two resounding blasts of his/her Acme Thunderer to signal “all’s well”. Not a guarantee of safety, of course, as passengers would often invade the road space to make a last minute jump onto the bus.
Paul Haywood
06/04/12 – 15:28
For those who relish the Scarborough Scene in the relatively recent past, there are some cracking photos to be found at the following link //www.focustransport.org.uk
John Darwent
06/04/12 – 15:28
The Wakefield one is just the same, Chris Y. It has always reminded me of that famous scene out of “Airplane”. They need proper buffers! Reverting to smells- not the smell of exhaust, but hot engines: a Daimler CVD6 at North Bridge in Doncaster with its engine side access open (as often) & oil everywhere- a sweet smell which was almost intoxicating… and talking of North Bridge, the drivers had (as I have said before) to thread their way through to the exit and then perform a u-turn across the old A1!
Joe
07/04/12 – 07:04
Yes Paul, I remember very well the entertaining presentations at Vicar LANE – the low wall adjoining the street was hit so often that it was eventually replaced by simple columns and “draped” chains. At certain “ad hoc” times a spare conductor would be around to help in reversing One man/lady buses off the stands. One priceless experience must be related here. Within days of the Ledgard takeover an elderly former Yeadon (Moorfield) Depot driver was having as much trouble persuading his unfamiliar (and detested by him) Bristol Lodekka in going backwards as he’d had in encouraging it forwards between Otley and Leeds. He was a comical raconteur, and given to priceless dramatic exaggerations, and told us of this encounter with authority :- JY – “I were just revussin’ off t’ stand when a yappy little ****** in a shiny ‘at rapped on t’ mudguard and snapped “I want thy number !!” “Oh, sez I, and why the (censored) duz tha’ want my number.” “Tha’s just knocked wall down sez ‘e.” “Oh ‘av a ?? – says I, well I’d just like thee to tell us this – If I’ve knocked thi’ wall down, wot wer that long ‘aired **** at back wi’ t’ whistle doooin’ ?”
Chris Youhill
07/04/12 – 07:05
East Yorkshire’s Westwood bus station was a charming place made even more captivating by the company’s blue/cream/white buses (and the trips to visit my two great-aunts in Cayton who incidentally would never use the competing services of United unless they absolutely had to!!). The site is now a Tesco store. Ken Wragg mentions that in 1967 loading at Westwood was changed from the format shown in the photo so that bus doors were then against the platform. I recall in that, in the earlier part of the 1960s, the buses loaded this way (with their doors against the platform) so for some reason a change was made and subsequently changed back. The site was perched on the edge of the ground falling away towards a large school and, as can be seen in the photograph, the loading area sloped. To the left of the building there was a narrower strip of concreted parking road at a lower level than that seen in the photo.
David Slater
07/04/12 – 07:07
I guess Chris Y will have worked at some time on the S.Ledgard Bradford – Harrogate route. Doubtless he will remember the reversing routine in Menston Village. The Bus would turn right into Burley Lane and then the conductor would dismount and check the crossroads was clear – give two blasts on his Acme Thunderer and watch the bus back round the blind corner – jump back on and the bus would pull in to the stop in front of the shops. If I recall it was at 10 minutes past from Harrogate and 40 minutes past from Bradford.
Gordon Green
07/04/12 – 15:42
Interesting recollections indeed Gordon and I worked at Otley depot so our only participation in the Bradford – Harrogate service consisted of two Monday to Friday “Workmen’s” duplicates. The morning one was at 07:20 from Menston to Otley and at teatime 17:33 from Otley to White Cross. The Menston Village reversing that you mention was of course involved in both cases. The main Bradford to Harrogate service (the Company’s longest route) was operated entirely by Bradford depot and had been inherited from B & B Tours – to the very end of Ledgard’s it remained referred to by staff and passengers as “The B & B” – but officially within the Company after the founder’s death in 1952 as S.Ledgard (Bradford) Ltd. Departure times were actually 10 past the hour from Bradford, and 30 minutes past from Harrogate. Our lowly position in the order of things in the mighty West Yorkshire Road Car empire was made clear in Harrogate Bus Station – we departed from a different stop to the West Yorkshire number 53 service, our stand being labelled “Bradford – S.Ledgard.” Perhaps this was a little chagrin from the WY as we were the only ones to serve Menston Village in its entirety.
Chris Youhill
07/04/12 – 15:48
The talk of odd loading procedures reminds me of Brighton’s Pool Valley bus station where vehicles were reversed on to the stands, fine with back loaders but with the advent of front or forward entrances passengers had to walk on the roadway and negotiate the steps from there. The reversing was supervised by conductors while such existed, after the advent of OMO ex conductors were employed to supervise these manoeuvres which ensured accidents were few and far between. The whole bus station was in fact a public road open to other vehicles also buses travelling west had to cross the very busy main promenade difficult in the summer season, especially with a PD3 Queen Mary with the numerous blind spots resulting from their full fronts. I feel somewhat of a lone voice for the south of the country on the site but thoroughly enjoy the chatter and the shared knowledge that is available so easily.
Diesel Dave
07/04/12 – 17:59
Chris Y – the times I quoted were in fact the Menston times – from Bradford the Ledgard at 10 mins past completed a 15 min afternoon service from Bradford to Harrogate – Service 53 via Otley at 25 and 55 and Service 51 via Yeadon Moor at 40 plus short workings to Otley on the 53 at 05 and 40. In addition there was the 50 Otley via Yeadon hourly at 10 mins past ! These days you are hard pressed to find a bus from Menston to Bradford as I found out recently when leaving my car for service. Believe it or not there was also an hourly 76 Harrogate – Skipton between Otley and Harrogate. You beat me to it with the banishment in Harrogate Bus Station – about half way down amongst Wetherby’s I recall. However SL were permitted use of the Harrogate stand at Chester Street next to the Green Hut – for about 2 minutes before departure ! One final bit of memorabilia – there was for many years an abandoned red B & B Tours timetable case fixed to the wall on the Bradford bound side of the road at Lister Park Gates at the bottom of Oak Lane – it was certainly there in the 1950’s and possibly longer.
Farmer G
08/04/12 – 06:42
All this talk about Westwood bus station in Scarborough, reminded me about some official photographs I have when it was first opened, you can tell from these, that it was built on a slope. Also of interest regarding this bus station was the use of EYMS’s 653 DBT553, 541 LAT69 & 674 VKH674 over the years, in use as left luggage stores, parked on the lower part of the slope.
Mike Davies
08/04/12 – 06:46
Your ‘priceless’ story, Chris Y, reminds me of my square-bashing time at RAF West Kirby (Wirral). We had a lad there who lived in Huddersfield and would, in his parlance, “…go over yon t’Pennines in t’cooch.’ whenever he was able to! And, Diesel Dave, you are not alone and I do recall Pool Valley on my occasional visits from Southsea to Brighton, on one occasion on a Leyland PD2/Beadle, lovely buses.
Chris Hebbron
08/04/12 – 10:59
More fascinating memories Farmer G. I have to confess that I’d no idea of the extremely even intervals scheduled from Bradford on the various services. Interestingly, the 50 service was also integrated in a similar manner with Samuel Ledgard at the Otley end. The West Yorkshire 50 service left at 05 past the hour while the Ledgard buses (Yeadon Depot, the Moorfield) left Otley at 25 past (via White Cross) and 45 past via The Chevin, thereby providing an even twenty minute interval service between Otley, Guiseley, Yeadon and Rawdon. I had a wry chuckle when you wrote “Believe it or not” about the 76 service from Otley to Harrogate. When I worked at West Yorkshire’s Ilkley depot the 76 was my favourite route and I swapped to be on there when ever possible. It was a magnificent five hour round trip from Skipton via Ilkley, Otley, Harrogate, Wetherby, and Boston Spa to Tadcaster. So enjoyable was the delightful country journey that one felt guilty, well almost !!, at being paid for the ride. It was also moderately to extremely busy and was therefore no shrinking violet in the revenue stakes. Five “cars” were required for the hourly service, these being provided in varying proportions by Skipton, Ilkley, Harrogate and Wetherby depots – on one weekday journey the Skipton depot car was operated by a Grassington depot crew – I daresay with Ordnance Survey map to assist with their brave foray into the big wide World !! I don’t unfortunately remember the B & B timetable case at Oak Lane – if I had I think I may have been willing to risk an appearance before the Bradford Bench in order to acquire and hide such a priceless artefact by night.
Chris Youhill
08/04/12 – 11:00
Your comments on Pool Valley, Diesel Dave and Chris H brought back a few memories, because I was Traffic Superintendent, Brighton, in 1968. You are absolutely right, Dave about the confusing relationship between the bus station and the adjoining public roads. Southdown did not own any part of the road way, and control over the area reserved for buses was most strictly exercised by traffic wardens. I once received a very strong warning from a traffic warden when I was at Pool Valley on business and briefly parked a Southdown traffic car, (a Morris 1100), in the far left bus aisle. Well, one of our 1100s had a PSV licence, so we could carry passengers in it, (e.g for missed express services etc). Being the arrogant and cocky so-and-so I then was, I made sure that the next time I wanted to park a company car at Pool Valley for a few minutes I used that particular car, and that the same traffic warden was on duty. As the guy walked up to me, I gained immense glee by saying to him as I swept past, ‘Before you start, mate, that’s a bus. If you don’t believe me, look in the window.’ Stupid and immature, no doubt, but it made my day – a rare event for me at Southdown.
Roy Burke
08/04/12 – 16:12
I knew this 1959 photo might come in useful eventually. Apologies for the poor quality and alignment (missing the registration number etc) but I presume this is DBT 553 acting as a Left Luggage Office referred to by Mike Davies. I must have climbed down into the garden of the then Boys’ High School (in 1976 becoming the Stephen Joseph Theatre where Alan Ayckborne would premier many of his famous comedy plays, before they moved to the present Odeon theatre site).
Paul Haywood
11/04/12 – 15:43
Maybe I’m a bit over sensitive, but I think that inadvertently I may have done myself a minor disservice in my previous comment, in an attempt to keep the comment short. I wouldn’t want to imply that parking company cars in the bus aisles at Pool Valley, (by me or anyone else for that mater), was a commonplace activity; quite the opposite. It was a rare event that happened only for urgent reasons, and then for a very short time. Controlling traffic around and in the bus station was vital, and we appreciated the efforts of the traffic wardens, who kindly allowed our temporary parking because they knew we’d be involved in keeping the buses running, and didn’t abuse the latitude they gave us. Similarly, instead my phrase that I ‘made sure’ that the same guy who’d chewed me off previously was on duty again, perhaps I should have said that I’d seen he was on duty when I was at Pool Valley earlier that day, and although I did deliberately use the car with the PSV licence, that was only because both 1100s were available. I may have been stupid and immature, but I wasn’t, I think, downright cretinous.
Roy Burke
16/04/12 – 07:27
I’m going to stick up for “drive-in, reverse-out” bus stations. Provided pedestrians are kept well away from the reversing area, this layout provides much better passenger facilities, which can be concentrated in a single concourse. This also helps personal security, especially at night, and, more important, passengers do not have to cross busways to reach their bus on a separate island. Compare Burnley, Leeds, Huddersfield and Wakefield with Wigan, Bolton, Bury and Rochdale. Someone got run over not long ago in Bury while crossing between buses. I also recall a fatality in Worcester bus station, another of the drive-through type, when a driver was run over.
Geoff Kerr
03/05/12 – 09:21
Just a follow up to Scarborough bus stations, I have sent some photos of the the three EYMS buses used as left luggage stores at Westwood bus station.
653 – DBT 553 was the first and was in use as a luggage store from 2/57 until 11/65 when it passed to Colbro (dealer) for scrap.
541 – LAT 69 was next replacing 653 in 1/66, 541 passed to United AC 3/72 when they took control of Westwood and continued as a luggage store until being sold for preservation 1/75 it still survives today, but in store somewhere local.
674 – VKH 674 was used next, along side 541, being converted in 7/69, this also passed to United ownership with the bus station in 3/72 and was in use until 1/75 when it passed into preservation, and was a well known vehicle at many rallies around the country, it is now in store along with 541 both out of use. All three vehicles had their seats removed and wooden luggage racks fitted , 541 also had doors fitted on the platform area.
Mike Davies
13/08/14 – 14:43
I hope I’m not repeating something someone else has commented on but as a school girl, I travelled to Beverley High school from Hessle. The buses were navy and cream and had, so I was told, a specially domed roof so that they could get through Beverley Bar. For the most of my school life we caught a bus at 9 am arriving in Beverley around 9.40, missing Assembly! Apparently this was because there were not enough buses to go round at 8 am. I am currently watching the documentary on EYMS and am delighted with the series, especially as I watched Rodney Hebden who was a great friend of my brother. We all loved the livery colour and wondered why and when it changed to its modern day colours.
Meg
22/09/14 – 07:30
I came across an article in the Commercial Motor in April 1957 which has a description of the bus station. It states it was designed mainly for holiday traffic being used by four services during the year. the Hull service jumps from hourly to half-hourly in summer and has extensive duplication. (as a schoolboy traveller to relatives outside Scarborough at Newby, I can vouch for that). On a peak Saturday in summer 1956 there were 81 vehicle departures, 52 being duplicates on this service alone! The other services had 22 departures, 7 being duplicates. Therefore the design provided more parking space than is usual. It is formed by two concreted areas at different levels with a concrete access ramp at each end, the lower level being exclusively for parking. Passengers are picked up at two points on a single platform. facilities include a waiting room, inquiry and left luggage offices, staff rest rooms and toilets. A reinforced concrete canopy extends over the platform. So many buses in blue and primrose – if only we had digital cameras inn those days.
Malcolm J Wells
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/10/16 – 07:20
John Stringer mentions the horror today’s Health & Safety people would have with offside loading/unloading in bus stations. They’d have a heart attack with the forecourt at Morden Tube Terminus. No better than a large supermarket carpark, with most queues forming behind concrete base “permanent” temporary bus stops, these huge queues had no protection from errant approaching buses as a result of driver carelessness or vehicle faults. Yet, I’m not aware of any accidents ever at this place of heaving humanity!
This photo illustrates the frequent shortage of London Transport’s lowbridge buses to serve the two red routes in Central Area, the 230 and 127. Here, 17-mile-distant Godstone Garage’s displaced-by-RLH’s green lowbridge STL2229, shows its wartime origins with the lack of a rear blind display indicator. On a foul 29 Mar 52, it is working from Central Area’s Merton Garage, on the 127 at Morden Tube Station forecourt. (the route plate stencil is visible on the back window), with STL1630 on the 118 and an RT on the 93. Photo by a probably frozen Alan Cross.
Chris Hebbron
22/10/16 – 09:42
Chris H’s description of the conditions at Morden Station reminds me of the abominable Wellington Street Coach Station in Leeds. Particularly as vehicle sizes grew its area was woefully inadequate. At one time there was no shelter but eventually an enclosed concrete alley was built across the full rear wall – any mechanical failure or driver misjudgement would have meant the victims within would have been crushed and showered with concrete and glass – mercifully this never happened. Meanwhile in the main open area – no bus lanes, just a terrifying “free for all”, hundreds of passengers waited to load and alight while inspectors brusquely ordered them to “get back.” Its closure couldn’t come soon enough.
A couple of weeks ago I commented on the Pommard and Devon Cream livery introduced in 1966, after the very short lived “Blue” livery experiment with NBU 502 (Fleet No 402). Well here it is, seen in a rather grubby state, in Union Street, operating on the Service “A” Greenacres/Bar Gap Road – Limeside (Laburnum Road) via Chapel Road. The service was renumbered “18” in the April (1st) 1968 renumbering exercise. The bus was transferred to SELNEC and became 5302 in their numbering scheme.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth
10/04/12 – 19:45
I may be wrong but I seem to recall that this bus had a yellow band between the two shades of blue instead of the white band shown in the photograph at some time during the experiment. Can anybody confirm? I used to see it on the 9 in Rochdale fairly frequently.
Philip Halstead
11/04/12 – 06:08
This blue livery reminds me of the equally abysmal colour scheme of Cambus of Cambridge, which blended in astonishingly well with the Fenland fogs.
Roger Cox
11/04/12 – 06:09
The original scheme was more like you describe, but the yellow was the “Roe” waistrail and all above was light blue. It looked quite different! It seems to have been changed quite quickly.
David Beilby
11/04/12 – 16:00
Would that, Roger, be the livery of white with a variety of horizontal stripes of various blue hue? It put me off visiting that area again for some twenty years!!
Chris Hebbron
12/04/12 – 05:54
Chris, the original Cambus attempt at a livery was overall pale “Cambridge Blue” with cream trim, and the insipid effect made buses virtually invisible at dusk and in fog, as well as showing up the road dirt rather prominently. A variant for dual purpose vehicles had stripes of darker blue across the vehicle front and in a reverse slope along the sides. As you say, the visual effect was awful. Later, Cambus revised the bus livery to show a darker blue on the lower half of the vehicle, with the pale blue above, very similar in appearance to the Oldham experiment. When one remembers the inspired company liveries of the past – City of Oxford, Aldershot and District, Southdown, East Kent to name but a few – and the neat simple paint schemes of the ex Tilling group, plus the multiplicity of interesting municipal colours, the present day rash of garish garbs seem to be the end results of opium induced nightmares.
Roger Cox
13/04/12 – 06:15
Your so right, Roger. Even today, the most dignified liveries are the traditional ones. Thankfully, a few operators still respect that principle.
Chris Hebbron
13/04/12 – 17:23
I particularly enjoyed the description in the caption of Rotherham’s depot as being a ‘gloomy’ looking place. Sandwiched between the River Don on one side and the canal on the other, the Rawmarsh Road garage was prone to flooding in heavy rains, such that the inspection pits would sometimes fill with water, making it very gloomy indeed if you were trying to work in there. In PTE days, some of the fitters actually ‘acquired’ a rowing boat left behind by some contractors working on the river bank, and used it, painted in PTE coffee and cream (!), to row across to the fish and chip shop at lunch times! There was a set of steps leading down to the canal bank from the roadway, which rose up to pass over the railway alongside the garage, which were ideally placed from which to stand, with notebook and pencil, and watch the comings and goings of the Crossleys and Bristols in the yard, while the single-deck trolleys of Rotherham and Mexboro and Swinton swept by every few minutes on the road; from this schoolboy spotter’s point of view, it didn’t get much better.
Dave Careless
13/04/12 – 17:33
Copyright unknown.
I have found a photo of OCPTD NBU 502 in the ‘First’ blue livery with the yellow band, as mentioned by David Beilby. I’ll let you and your contributors decide which is the better livery of the 2 in the picture. I know which is my favourite. Note the Salford DD in the back ground hired in after the fleet check by the ‘Ministry Man’ in 1965, which dates the picture to late that year. Not my copyright, but I have had it in my collection for many years. No mention of the original photographer.
Stephen Howarth
14/04/12 – 07:08
That’s not a Salford Daimler, the photograph predates that affair. It’s one of two Liverpool Crossleys bought for spares by Oldham. The engine of one of them ended up in preserved Oldham Crossley 368.
David Beilby
16/04/12 – 07:34
The blue bus (402) took to the road in September 1963, but within a few weeks the livery was changed to the two shades of blue separated by a white band. I preferred the first version. The interior was unchanged – dark red trim and upholstery: a neighbour of mine said that she found this a disappointment!! Presumably a blue bus should have a blue interior, as (at the time) Rochdale Corporation’s buses had. This was also the case with Lytham St.Anne’s Corporation buses. 402 was one of three buses to receive the Pommard and cream livery in July 1966. The others were Met. Cam. 419 (PBU 919) and Northern Counties 457 (PBU 957). The whole fleet then received this livery up to 1970 with the exception of Roe PD1 246 (DBU 246, preserved); Roe Titan PD2 360 (FBU 647); and Roe Titan 450 (PBU 950); withdrawn in 1971.
D. Butterworth
19/02/15 – 10:38
I might be a bit late putting this comment in but as far as I remember Oldham 246 (DBU246) did receive the Pommard and cream livery. I was a passenger on her when she was the first bus of the morning on the number 8 (later 20) route from the top of Featherstall Road to Hollinwood back in 1966/1967.
Eric Langley
19/02/15 – 15:52
I can bring to mind only two examples where two shades of blue have looked good on buses because it is a feat that is difficult to pull off. West Brom’s post war double deck fleet, bar the rear engined buses, look absolutely superb with two shades of blue. The trick there was to keep them well apart. Manchester’s airport coaches, both single and double deck, carried the two shades well mainly because each complimented the other. There was a time in the mid 70’s when dissatisfaction by the public with the orange and white SELNEC livery led to a campaign to have the fleet in two tones of blue. It came to nought. Perhaps someone remembered the Oldham examples.
Orla Nutting
19/02/15 – 17:25
I wonder if the Manchester airport buses inspired the second Oldham scheme.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/02/15 – 07:39
Orla Nutting mentions that there was a proposal to have the SELNEC PTE fleet painted in to a two tone blue livery but nothing came of it, perhaps because of the ill fated Oldham scheme. It is worth mentioning here that Harry Taylor, ex Oldham Corporation General Manager was the Fleet Development Engineer of SELNEC. Enough said.
Stephen Howarth
20/02/15 – 07:41
Orla, I would agree with you about the West Bromwich livery, but I can think of a few more superb liveries using two shades of blue separated by cream. First, in my opinion one of the finest liveries ever – that of W. Alexander. Then there was South Yorkshire of Pontefract, and still with us – Delaine of Bourne.
John Stringer
20/02/15 – 07:42
Another two blues, Orla- South Yorkshire. Boat race colours. Chris Y will tell you they always looked good.
Joe
20/02/15 – 09:33
The South Yorkshire livery did work until someone was let loose with too much white paint, a spray gun and oversized lettering.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/02/15 – 11:32
Quite right, Phil. I was only thinking of the classic original South Yorkshire livery, the later soap powder box style was awful to my mind.
John Stringer
20/02/15 – 16:26
The Delaine, I’ll concede, impossible not to particularly when they’ve produced so many winning combinations of the two shades of blue over the years albeit the navy is almost black at times. Again, the application of white (or cream on some coaches) has enhanced the blues. South Yorkshire, I’m afraid not for me; undistinguished. I haven’t a problem with the colour blue it’s simply that the application of pale blues is a bit hit and miss (a bit like City is suppose) but more often miss. Rotherham, Rochdale (until nondescript cream ruled) Eastbourne & Swindon were about right with their blue and white/cream applications, Leigh and Middlesborough less so with their shade of blue and I was indifferent to Ashton’s so called peacock blue. Same for Bradford and Preston. Accrington’s was stunning with red and Birkenhead carried it off with pale blue with just the right amount of white/cream relief. There’s more but I won’t bore more and don’t get me going on two shades of green. BTW, I totally fail to understand why Oldham wanted a change in the first place. First it changed the rather nice plum colour to Pommard, a ghastly washed out colour, then this blue two tone (maybe the Gen Mgr had a Hillman Minx of this period).
Orla Nutting
20/02/15 – 16:27
D. Butterworth mentions that the whole Oldham Corporation fleet received the Pommard and Devon Cream livery, “with the exception of PD1, DBU 246……….” Attached is a picture of 246 in the ‘Grave Yard’ behind Oldham Depot displaying the aforementioned livery. I hope that this clarifies the situation.
Stephen Howarth
21/02/15 – 07:04
When I was at Oldham Harry Taylor the General Manager, had a Ford Corsair – Registration GBU 1. The Departmental staff car, was, however a Hillman Minx. It was painted black, which the Chauffeur kept immaculate, with red upholstery, with the Municipal crest on the doors.
Stephen Howarth
21/02/15 – 12:30
The Ashton Peacock Blue was reasonable but not a patch on the patriotic blue white and red that covered the fleet until late 1954. Oldham’s Pommard and Cream was just *~!**@& The Pommard looked like undercoat.
Phil Blinkhorn
Its either means a naughty word or Phil”s predictive typing has gone wonky again.
21/02/15 – 12:32
There were still quite a few vehicles in the older crimson and white livery when Oldham was subsumed into SELNEC. These fell into three categories: 1. Vehicles withdrawn when still in the crimson and white livery. Quite a lot of the older stock came into this category but one of the last “tin-fronts” 453 (PBU 953) was an early withdrawal and 425/6/50 followed later. There was also stock withdrawn before the formation of SELNEC that was still around, such as accident-damaged PD3 108 and four of the five Crossley-bodied PD2s. 2. Vehicles repainted into pommard and cream in the first few months before the new orange and white livery was implemented. Several “tin-front” PD2s came into this category but so, much to our surprise at the time, did one ex-Bolton, two ex-Sheffield PD2s and even more unexpected the last PD1/3 246 (DBU 246) referred to above. 3. Vehicles repainted directly into orange and white. Only one “tin-front” PD2 came into this category which was Metro-Cammell bodied 421 (PBU 921). The remainder were PD3s 101/2/4/5/7 and Tiger Cubs 111/2/6, the last of which was the final vehicle in service in crimson.
David Beilby
22/02/15 – 07:50
Absolutely nothing to do with buses but I rather liked the later BR DMU blue with white window surrounds colour scheme (the earlier overall blue looked dreadful)
Ian Wild
22/02/15 – 07:51
Why do operators see a need to change their image so radically? – especially when the change isn’t for the best. Whatever, as I’ve posted on another thread, last month I happened to see First’s Wright Eclipse(?) that is decked-out in heritage Pommard/cream . . . and I thought it looked superb (although that was against a back-drop of the current First livery).
Philip Rushworth
08/04/15 – 06:18
I agree with Philip Rushworth about the single deck Wright Eclipse bus looking good; a pity that a double deck version could not have been chosen -in the crimson lined livery – found on many of Oldham’s buses up until the mid 1960s.
David Butterworth
03/12/15 – 10:42
Citibus, one of those cheap and nasty firms which sprung up after deregulation had some Atlanteans in a similar 2 tone blue to the Oldham PD2
The recent posting of a Sheffield Mann Egerton bodied PD2 fleet number 362 provided some interesting information on new bus orders about that time and here is one of the Roe bodied PD2/12 ordered at the same time as the Mann Egerton pair. These were very elegant looking vehicles with deep windows in both saloons and I think looked especially handsome in the C T Humpidge era livery with three blue bands. Interesting to note how Roe incorporated a variation of the standard Sheffield destination layout – probably necessary because of the reduced depth available because of the afore mentioned deep windows. I well recall these buses replacing the Fulwood via Hunters Bar trams as the first programmed tram replacement scheme in January 1952. The new 88 bus route ran between the City and Fulwood with the City terminus being uniquely located in Eyre Street outside the Motor Vehicle Licensing Office (near the Central Library). This continued I believe until March 1954 when the 88 became a cross City service between Fulwood and Malin Bridge at the same time as the 81/82 bus routes replaced trams between Ecclesall and Middlewood. Here is 391 in later life about to turn into Herries Road Depot on a summer evening in July 1967. The batch of nine were withdrawn the following year and 391 ended up inevitably with a Barnsley breaker.
I am, of course, predisposed and prejudiced in this post. Magnificent body, excellent operator – and pretty good chassis!!! I never quite got to terms with the “heavy on blue” livery that all Roes were delivered in and generally preferred this scheme – which was always on repaint. Nevertheless, I also felt that these PD2s looked slightly bald in this scheme. Never actually rode on one and didn’t realise it was originally a City only service from Eyre Street. Only used the 60 to Crimicar Lane in my childhood – the 88 didn’t go up the hill!
David Oldfield
14/10/12 – 10:41
What I could never understand about the Sheffield fleet is this: all the views I have, bought ones or my own work relating to the bus fleet, show this style of livery. With the trams, however, and there are several preserved at Crich, if it was delivered in livery “A” it retained that livery throughout. If it was delivered in “B”, it retained “B” throughout. Only the 1953 ‘Roberts’ trams had this style. Can anyone explain the apparent reluctance to modernise the livery on the trams, when it seems to have been done on the buses?
Pete Davies
15/10/12 – 07:32
Pete, you seem to have an inaccurate memory – or information – about Sheffield livery. This scheme was introduced in about 1936 for the Domed Standard (tram) Cars and extended to AEC Regent/Weymann buses. It was extended to all buses eventually, pre-war, including Craven and Leyland bodied TD5 Titans. The livery was perpetuated after the war on the Roberts trams – the only trams bought after the Domed Standards and, of course, the last “first generation” trams. It was also the standard bus livery except, for some inexplicable reason, all Roe deckers, Leyland Farington deckers and the final “not” Farington Leyland body (which were delivered in the short-lived and disastrous green experimental livery). The Roe and Leyland bodies had far more blue paint but most, if not all, Roes were painted in the scheme shown at first overhaul. Yet another superb colour shot by Ian.
David Oldfield
15/10/12 – 10:00
Thank you, David. The source of my information seems to be incorrect!
Pete Davies
15/10/12 – 17:22
The whole vehicle is pure and classic Roe, except for the front upper deck windows which look a little odd, the way that the top edge looks lower than the side windows. No doubt it’s just the evening sun shining on the white dome but it made me look twice, I thought some alteration had been done. Still a superb bus though!
Chris Barker
15/10/12 – 17:23
And don’t forget the variant of the grey roof, David, which buses tended to acquire on first repaint. I’ve heard it said that the grey was made up in Queens Road by mixing the dregs of the cream and blue paint tins, but I’m not sure how correct that is. I think the practice ended after Chaceley Humpidge became GM in 1961, as he wasn’t a fan of the grey roof. Personally, I think the ‘Farington’ PD2’s in their ‘Roe’ style livery looked better than ever with the roof painted grey. Oddly enough, the domed roof trams that inaugurated the ‘new’ livery had a variation of the grey roof, or at least acquired one eventually; perhaps in wartime in an effort to make the cars less visible from the air? If the grey was in fact a combination of the blue and cream, perhaps it was a conscious effort on the part of the paint shop to not waste a drop!!
Dave Careless
16/10/12 – 05:29
Dave, you are absolutely correct about the grey paint – actually called “smudge”. It gave a certain dignity to an already super livery. I do not know, and to my shame have not as yet bothered to find out, whether there was a policy about the smudge. My feeling is that it was applied before entry into service (whether or not by the coachbuilder or by STD) and lost on overhaul/repaint. I certainly feel that all the Weymanns (classic and Orion alike) on 26′ and 27′ chassis entered service with smudge roofs. The Domed cars probably likewise.
David Oldfield
16/10/12 – 11:45
I don’t know whether there was a wartime edict to paint bus roofs a less obtrusive colour . LPTB went from silver to grey to brown quickly. However, the dirt falling onto tram and trolleybus roofs from poles and wiring might well have been a consideration not to change back later.
Chris Hebbron
16/10/12 – 16:52
Grey roof painting was widely adopted on the outbreak of WW2. It was kept by many operations for a long time afterwards. For instance Manchester had its 1946 deliveries painted in this manner. When it converted its orders to 8′ wide vehicles they appeared with red roofs, the 7′ 6″ vehicles retained the grey so the bus washers knew how to set washer width. Few 7’6″ vehicles appeared in the “overall” red scheme but by that time the washers set themselves automatically. Stockport cut back its grey from 1946 but retained the centre of the roof in grey for all deliveries up to and including the first batch of St Helen’s fronted PD2s in 1962. Frank Brimelow specified translucent roofs thereafter but all re-sprays of grey roofed vehicles received the grey until SELNEC took over.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/10/12 – 08:30
On the subject of grey or other colour for the roof, one of my former colleagues was a descendent of B C Baker of Birmingham City Transport. Birmingham had a sandy colour for their bus roofs, apparently as camouflage. My colleague suggested it was to confuse the Afrika Corps!
Pete Davies
17/10/12 – 08:31
This bus and its windows is reminiscent of Roe’s 8ft Doncaster 121 and 122 which were sold to Blue Ensign after 4 years because either they didn’t fit the streets (official) or the washer (Tony Peart). Did they also have the cranked seats and “high level” rear platform? It seems that Roe had a sudden urge to innovate…?
Joe
17/10/12 – 11:24
No, Joe, that was a Doncaster thing. The vehicles you mention are closer to STD 18/19; 113-119 – the 1952 four bay bodied Regent IIIs (my equal favourite with 1325 – 1349). Incidentally, Charles Halls has these PD2s (386 – 394) as 1951 and 361/2 (the Mann Egertons) as 1952. I always took this to be correct and that the Roes were late ’51 and the Mann Egertons early ’52.
David Oldfield
17/10/12 – 18:04
One further thought with respect to Sheffield’s penchant for grey roofs, a style that became a thing of the past after C.T. Humpidge took over. It occurs to me that it must have seemed a bit like deja vu to the new General Manager when he got settled into the chair at Sheffield in 1961. Bradford’s fleet had grey roofs into the early 1950’s, when he took over the top job in that city, after which the roofs on the buses eventually became blue on his watch. When he took over the reins at Sheffield, and saw the tins of “smudge” on the shelves at Queens Road, he must have felt he was starting all over again!
Dave Careless
18/10/12 – 07:46
The Fulwood via Hunters Bar tram route that these buses took over from was converted to bus operation (service 88) on 5th January 1952 so this batch would almost certainly have been delivered in late 1951. I can only recall one Sheffield bus with cranked seats and this was all Leyland 651 of the 1949 batch (and then I think the lower deck only). Can the Sheffield people out there confirm this and what was the reason?
Ian Wild
18/10/12 – 10:44
Chieftain Buses of Hamilton acquired a second-hand ex-Sheffield TD5 Craven in the late 40s. BWB ###. The engine in this bus sounded different to any other TD5 I had come across. It surely could not have been a petrol engine? Any enlightenment?
Jim Hepburn
18/10/12 – 14:37
Leeds had one AEC Regent with staggered seats 700 NUM 700 a 1950 show exhibit which was LCTs second 8ft wide bus I have a vague feeling that these were removed and replaced with normal seating towards the end of its LCT life.
Chris Hough
19/10/12 – 06:32
The Sheffield livery variation on the Roe bodied vehicles has long been a talking point. The whole process was caused by the changes to the Leyland Farington PD2/1’s delivered in 1949. The mouldings below the lower deck windows were discontinued, along with upper beading. Leyland asked for a simplified livery in lieu of cream and three blue bands, for the high cost of lining out would be excessive. AEC Regent Weymann FWJ 808 was used to trial a simpler paint style. With a slight modification,this livery was adopted for the large intake of Farington PD2’s. When the Roe order for PD2/12’s was placed, a similar situation resulted. The narrow lower deck waist rail would have unbalanced the lower deck blue band proportions, therefore a decision was made to adopt the Farington style. The new GM C.T.Humpidge took a dislike to the Roe livery in 1962 and repaints received the standard livery in due course. Remarkably, none of the Farington fleet were so changed in livery style.
Keith Beeden
24/11/12 – 06:50
Referring to Jim Hepburn’s post of 18th October, as the BWA to BWE range of registrations was limited to 1935, I would imagine that the vehicle he refers to would be a Leyland TD4C/Cravens which used the torque converter rather than a convention gearbox and was commonly known as ‘Gearless Bus’. The sound produced, as I remember, from like vehicles surviving into the 50’s resembled a long monotonous droning noise especially from a standing start.
Just to add to David Oldfield’s response to Pete Davies on the subject of liveries. For Pete to understand that trams delivered in Liveries A or B would retain that livery throughout is erroneous. Following the standardisation of Azure Blue and Cream circa 1936, numerous older trams previously wearing the Prussian Blue and Cream were repainted into the Azure Blue livery. In fact, one such tram, namely 150, delivered in Prussian Blue in 1930 was repainted into the ill-fated Green livery in 1952 and then Azure Blue shortly afterwards.
As regards the subject of the post, PD2 No. 391, my humble opinion is that it looks absolutely dreadful in the Humpidge interpretation of the standard livery. As Keith Beedon has explained, the Farrington style livery was applied to the Roe designs for good reason and looked nicely balanced on these elegant vehicles. The painting out of the dividing bar on the front destination box just added to the desecration but credit is due for restoring the cream roof. I would refer all to C.C.Hall’s ‘Sheffield Transport’ Page 263 to see just how superb 389 of the same batch looked when new. (I’m sure many of you will have this book but if not and you are ‘Up North’, there is a copy in the splendid ‘Search Engine’ Reference Library at the National Railway Museum at York)
John Darwent
18/12/12 – 17:37
Referring to Ian Wild’s post of 18-10-2012, Keith Beeden advises that Sheffield all Leyland 651 was fitted with cranked seats on both decks. These were supplied by Siddall and Hilton. Here is an extract from Commercial Motor of 8th December 1950- Article titled Innovation Components and Accessories “More room with less seat” is the object of the new Sidhil-Morseat, manufactured by Siddall and Hilton, Ltd.. Sowerby Bridge, Yorks. Employing a cleverly cranked frame, this service-bus seat enables two passengers to sit comfortably side by side without encroaching on each other or on the gangway. The outer half of the seat, apart from being set back, as in a normal cranked seat, is also turned slightly inward, so that the “gangway” passenger’s elbows are out of the way of the inside” passenger. A recess in the centre of the seat provides additional elbow-room, enabling both passengers to get at pockets for their fares without the usual difficulty. Further, each person enjoys the full width of backrest and the “inner” passenger can more easily leave his seat without disturbing his neighbour. With this design, the conductor can move more easily about the bus, and is able, with less difficulty, to collect the fares from the window-side passenger.
John Darwent
19/12/12 – 07:29
Siddall & Hilton are still in business today in Halifax producing wire products, hospital beds and other ancillary equipment for the healthcare industry.
Eric Bawden
03/08/13 – 14:25
Long time since I visited this site , but thanks to John Darwent for info. on BWB Craven. By this time, it had a conventional gearbox but still sounded unusual. Now another ex. Sheffield bus was WJ 9094. Any info.?
Jim Hepburn
04/08/13 – 10:40
WJ 9094 was a Leyland TD3c, fleet number 94, Cravens H31/24R. Arrived 1934, withdrawn 1941. Think chassis number was 3606.
Les Dickinson
06/08/13 – 06:05
Thanks Les about info. on TD3c WJ 9094. This bus was converted to a conventional gearbox and served with J. Laurie`s of Hamilton`s “Chieftain” buses plying between Hamilton and East Kilbride, and was not withdrawn till 1954.
Jim Hepburn
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/10/13 – 08:09
Referring to my post of 18-12-12 about the cranked seats in Sheffield PD2 No. 651, I have now had the opportunity to photograph probably the last pair of ‘Sidhil’ Morseats in captivity which are currently in Sheffield AEC/MCW ex 255, now preserved as ex-gritter G55 in the South Yorkshire Transport Museum at Aldwarke, Rotherham.These seats were the spare pair supplied with 651 and retained by Sheffield Transport Department after the bus was sold on.
John Darwent
15/10/13 – 07:08
Not quite the last set in captivity!. Doncaster 122, the beautiful AEC Regent 111/Roe restored by the late Tony Peart has these seats as well.
Andrew Charles
15/10/13 – 18:03
Splendid news Andrew, thank you for posting. Has 122 a full set, upstairs and downstairs, do you know? I wonder if any more are lurking in preservation.
Yorkshire Woollen District 1958 Leyland PD2/30 Roe H33/26RD
Sheffield buses seem to have a very keen following on the site, so this ex-pat in disguise may be of interest. Around 1970/71 Yorkshire Woollen District were experiencing acute maintenance problems resulting in severe vehicle shortages, and a number of most unlikely temporary second-hand acquisitions appeared on the Dewsbury scene. These included Bristol K’s from West Yorkshire, KSW’s from United, AEC Bridgmasters from South Wales and PD2’s, Atlanteans and Leopards from Sheffield. One of these was 3156 WE, which had been new to the Sheffield ‘C’ fleet as their 1156 in 1958. With the takeover of the wholly owned British Railways ‘C’ Fleet by the National Bus Company it passed to YWD as their 135 in 1970, in which form it is seen here at Savile Town garage in late June 1971. Renumbered 466 in 1971 it was withdrawn in 1972. Sold to North’s, the dealer, of Sherburn-in-Elmet in early 1973, they quickly sold it to Don’s of Dunmow, Essex. It was later secured for preservation and by 1997 was owned by First Mainline forming part of their heritage collection – even receiving group fleet number 30386 ! It is now part of the South Yorkshire Transport Museum collection.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
21/04/13 – 09:58
This Sheffield exile in the south has only been on 1156 once in preservation, a couple of years ago, but she was rather fine on that occasion – taking a full load from Meadowhall to the museum in Rotherham.
David Oldfield
22/04/13 – 10:21
Any idea what that is behind 1156, John? It looks suspiciously like another of the same batch from Sheffield. [Although if it’s 1162, it was delivered on it’s own in 1960 after the last of the “B” fleet Regent Vs (1325-1349). This would follow on logically – all had Roe bodies with platform doors – but it seemed strange to be separated from the other PD2s by two years.]
David Oldfield
22/04/13 – 14:36
I did not make any notes at the time, but it certainly would be another like 135. YWD had 135-140 (3156-3161 WE), and 141 (6162 WJ), as well as two ECW-bodied PD2’s, 142/143 (YWB 152/153).
John Stringer
23/04/13 – 08:06
I remember an occasion when a defect affected a Sheffield J.O.C Leyland Atlantean on the joint service 66 Sheffield to Bradford service whilst it was passing through Heckmondwike. Yorkshire Woollen supplied a change over in the guise of one of their former buses from the Roe bodied batch.
Philip Carlton
23/04/13 – 08:07
This particular vehicle didn’t seem to stay with Yorkshire Woollen very long following it’s full repaint. At fourteen years it wasn’t exactly an old bus, had YWD’s difficulties eased by 1972 or did they just run these until the COF’s expired?
Chris Barker
24/04/13 – 07:49
In August 1971 YWD undertook a major service revision (reduction) and a major extension of OMO which saw off most of the ex Sheffield buses. When I worked at Frost Hill in the Hebble coaching unit summer 1972 I would travel home to Bradford on one of the last few of these regularly, but as we took delivery of the K registered Leopards and Fleetlines, all the half cabs except the Lowlanders, PD3’s and converted PS2’s were withdrawn.
Ken Aveyard
24/04/13 – 15:15
135 is blinded for route “C”, Ravensthorpe-Dewsbury-Ossett. This route, together with “B” (which avoided Earlsheaton between Dewsbury and Ossett), became routes 46/47 under the August 1971 revisions referred to by Ken, when the ex-tramway routes became numbered instead of lettered. At the same time YWD vacated its Frost Hill, Liversedge, Depot into which Hebble – now the coach unit of the “West Riding Group” – then moved.
