…of vehicles pre-1970
Copyright Ray Soper
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Whilst researching this bus I noticed that York Pullman got there first double deck buses the year prior to this bus in 1954 they were 3 Regent IIIs. I have photos of two of them which I will upload one day. I also noticed that they only had 10 double deckers in there whole history until being swallowed up by Yorkshire Rider in 1990 the York Pullman name was sold to Kingston upon Hull City Transport I think for coach operations.
A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.
My Auntie Ada (Wilson) used to be a clippie on York Pullman – I remember when they had the half hour stop over in Easingwold, she and the driver would turn up at our house for a cuppa and a bun. Can’t remember any of the drivers, this would be in the late 50s, early 60s maybe. Ada was married to my Uncle Ted. They lived off Lawrence Street between James St and Granville Terrace.
Sue Thorn
I have just been reading the above comments and yes I remember Ada and Ted and also George Tyler. I believe George had the nickname Eggie because he used to be a driver delivering eggs. My Dad, Gerry Rank worked for York Pullman from 1939 until his retirement in 1990. He was a mechanic/driver. I have ridden many miles on their buses and coaches. My Mum was also a clippie, Molly, until I was born in 1956
Liz Greene nee Rank
21/10/11 – 06:41
I remember these Regents from when I was stationed at Linton-on -Ouse during my National Service in 1956. They were always clean and tidy
Jim Hepburn
16/07/12 – 06:30
I think this must be the very last photo of Pullman’s garage in Navigation Road. It was an empty cavern the day before and flattened the day after. I had the quick thinking to take the camera along or I would have missed it.
They’re back out on service work again and concentrating of coaching which has noticeably increased.
Steve Oxbrow
16/07/12 – 16:21
The staff of the ‘New’ York Pullman Co did rescue the name letters from over the door. Now at the depot in Rufforth. Where the office (reopened) in Bootham tower. Now used for the same job by Transdev.
Steve Oxbrow
16/07/12 – 18:17
Oh how sad! I’m glad to have seen it but I almost wish I hadn’t if you know what I mean. I’ve so many lovely memories of this depot and the York Pullman company. Progress, I think It’s called!
Alan Hall
16/07/12 – 18:17
When was the photo taken, Steve?
Chris Hebbron
17/07/12 – 07:06
If it is any comfort, I looked on Google Earth and found that when the current image was taken, the walls from the temporary fence onwards were still in existence. The main building nearest the camera however has gone totally and is now a block of flats but then, they are quite attractive so at least the land went to good use. I fear that by now, all of the rest has gone the same way unless “saved” by the recession.
Richard Leaman
17/07/12 – 07:07
Am I correct in talking about the Regent that belonged to the late Tony Peart that it has a replacement top deck as I heard that it was badly damaged in a low bridge accident and had to return to Crossgates for rebuilding.
Philip Carlton
17/07/12 – 17:45
Philip There is a picture in the Geoff Lumb book about Roe showing the Regent prior to repair awaiting its turn at Crossgates.
Chris Hough
31/01/13 – 05:56
It was JDN 668 (Fleet No 64) that Tony Peart bought and took to many shows until he died and I believe now it is at a museum at Lincoln
Liz Greene nee Rank
01/02/13 – 06:03
Just to say that York Pullman 64 is indeed at the Lincolnshire Road Transport Museum and it is expected to be on show and give rides this Easter Sunday . A lovely bus !
Steve Milner
05/04/13 – 05:34
I was a driver for York Pullman from 1972 till 1985.
I remember very well driving the AEC double decker, fleet no 64, 65, 71, 72 plus two half cabs.
I also remember Gerry Rank and George Tyler plus Ada Connell and her husband Noel, there was so many employees at that time and back in 1972 getting drivers to stay was most difficult because of the low wages.
I found it was sad when the old directors decided to sell out and recall at the time it only took the new owners a couple of years to wreck a very good and long established bus company.
Brian Gallier
Copyright Unknown
Another bus from the large West Yorkshire independent this time an AEC Regent III. West Riding did not favour any particular make of vehicle they had various models from each of AEC, Leyland, Daimler and Guy. How much nicer this bus would have looked with a shiny radiator instead of a painted one.
I don’t know who the photographer was but the location is Pontefract Bus Station. The bus is on the 192 service to Selby, which ran every two hours and which I caught home from school. The route was taken over from Bullock’s (B&S Motor Service) in 1950.
Del
Although the date of acquisition is 1951, the painted radiator may be a hangover from the Bullock and Sons takeover in 1950, as all their vehicles had painted radiators. West Riding also generally kept the buses acquired from B&S on the former B&S routes.
An interesting feature about this vehicle was the passenger seat design. The double seats, at least in the lower saloon, had a kind of staggered design to allow easy access to the window seat.
TC
The bus is most likely to have been allocated to the former B & S depot at Chimes Road, Selby which was demolished in the late 1990s and replaced with the present new one near the railway station. I did a fair amount of work out of both premises until retiring (from Pontefract depot) in May 2001 – I did many a trip on the modern version of this route and, although the Selby fleet was interesting and well maintained, never with a vehicle as delightful as the one shown.
Chris Youhill
09/06/11 – 08:43
This bus is not ex B&S the fleet number is too high it is one of batch of 10 and was allocated to Featherstone depot, at the time of this photo. as to the radiator if you look at photos of ex B&S AEC Regents they have chrome radiators AHL 927 fleet number 295 is a good example of this (can be seen in David W Allen’s book West Riding 2 page 71
Stan
28/10/11 – 16:20
Further to my last comment this bus was new to West Riding, in 1952, a full two years after they bought B&S so impossible to be ex B&S
Stan
28/10/11 – 16:26
I quite agree Stan, BBF 9 as the ex B&S Regents as BHL 641-3 and BHL 926 – 319-22 built in 1948
Peter
09/12/12 – 07:56
An excellent book called West Riding 1 in the Super Prestige range by David W Allen has nearly all West Riding bus and coach photographs in including several A.E.C centre entrance double deckers in both red and green livery. I worked at Belle Isle depot as an apprentice from 1956 and often travelled into the City centre on one of these fine machines. The pre select gearbox made them quick off the mark and ideal for city work because of the twin staircase and wide entrance.
Barrie Micklethwaite
09/12/12 – 11:43
Barrie – your last observation is so very true even though it applies to a totally different era, but quick loading was as important then as it OUGHT to be now. The Industry has completely lost the plot nowadays, admittedly partly “pushed” by such things as buggy accessibility etc. Towards the end of my career as a driver, and still as a passenger, I despair at the impossibility of present designs with a single doorway and the buggy/wheelchair bay right opposite the bottom of the staircase. Add to this the “double standard” operator publicity to “remain seated until the vehicle stops” by managements who know full well that if all passengers did so, in both saloons, the peak period buses would still be out after Midnight.
I must make clear that I am all in favour of good and sympathetic service for the passengers (and these modern “customers” whoever they are !!) but there are only sixty minutes in the hour. I have a wide experience of trying to keep time with single doorway buses and, due to resolutely refusing ever to drive badly, I was frequently late on busy journeys and man enough to shoulder all the resultant sneering and abuse from all quarters. Knowing full well that I could put up a good verbal defence on this issue the Management were never brave enough to tackle me about it and, had they done so, they would have been shot down in factual and statistical flames !!
Just in conclusion, notice how multiple doorways in London and on the Continent keep the bus moving, and all the much hyped nonsense about serious passenger accidents are wildly exaggerated – that’s not to deny that extra diligence from drivers is essential on such vehicles.
Chris Youhill
05/10/14 – 11:07
With reference to the AEC double decker, I used conduct on the Selby route when I started there in 1962 ,it started at Halfpenny Lane Pontefract on the odd hour went via Pontefract bus station to Selby, but the other buses Leyland PD1 and 2s and old Guys and Guy Arabs used to operate on the 192 Selby run.
Les Cranswick
06/10/14 – 16:45
TC – Noting your comment on the ‘staggered’ double seat design, I wonder whether this was in fact another example of the Sidil Morsat experimental seat of the period.
John Darwent
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Felix motors was started in 1921 the company was named after “Felix the Cat” a cartoon character of the time, for some time the cartoon image was used as an emblem on the side of the vehicles. I have seen a photograph on the web somewhere of one of there vehicles showing the Felix logo if I find it again I will update with a link to it.
A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.
The other Felix company in Derbyshire also used Felix as a logo but were recently threatened with legal action by the film company which owns the rights so it has now been dropped. Both Felix companies used similar liveries but the Derby one has as far as I know always used saloons
Chris Hough
Absolutely right Chris – you will find a Willebrew ticket from Felix (N Frost) of Stanley Derbyshire, on the tickets side of the website.
Stephen Ford
06/12/11 – 06:47
I wrote a book about the ‘other’ Felix a few years ago and it would appear that both of company histories shared a similar beginning. ‘My’ Felix started in 1921 and was named after a popular song of the day – Felix kept on walking. The first vehicle R 7831 which carried a cartoon cat emblem over the front window was sold to the above Felix in 1926 (it was suggested that this was why the Hatfield based company was named Felix but I never found any proof of this).
Sadly it has just been reported that Felix (Stanley, Derbyshire) is to cease on 29th January 2012 after being taken over by TrentBarton – the local large bus company. Hope this is of interest.
Paul D Chambers
30/10/12 – 05:57
Felix in Stanley Derbyshire are now showing ‘Black Cat’ on the side, but are run by Trent/Barton.
John Swan
07/10/13 – 17:38
I recall seeing Felix buses in Doncaster but had no idea of the origin of the name. I suppose I assumed it was the proprietor’s name or else the Latin for “happy”!
Early on Felix ran some Leyland Tigers but no others from the Leyland “zoo”, being mainly an AEC operator.
Geoff Kerr
08/10/13 – 07:39
Geoff – somewhere, in an article long ago, there appears a magnificent lady driver in WW2 just climbing elegantly into the cab of a prewar Felix Regent in Doncaster. She is dressed in a long white smock and sports a very chic 1930s hat and, if I remember rightly, a long skirt in lieu of the usual slacks.
Chris Youhill
08/10/13 – 12:51
She was clearly ‘doing her bit, don’t ya know! A change from driving the Rolls, what with the fuel rationing!”
Chris Hebbron
08/10/13 – 17:55
Nay Lad, not in them parts….
Actually, if you read Peter Gould’s potted history, its all there. www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/felix.htm
Notice, too, how buses from them parts seem to have two fog lamps…
Joe
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This bus was one of quite a few Leeds City buses sold to or on loan to Halifax Corporation in 1964, they were never painted in the Halifax livery obviously not destined to stay long, in fact they were withdrawn one year later. I am not quite sure why they were at Halifax maybe they were short of buses as 20 Leyland Titan PD2s were delivered in 1965 if there is another reason let me know. I have headed this bus as Leeds and not Halifax as it actually kept its Leeds crest, I think only the fleet number and the destination blind changed.
In 1964 Halifax acquired a small number of recently withdrawn AEC/Roe Regent IIIs from Leeds City Transport. This was to cover a delay in new chassis deliveries due to difficulties at the body builders Weymann who had a protracted strike at that time.
Chris Hough
08/09/11 – 14:15
Hi Chris,
Did they call your dad Tommy, if so he had me as a trainee conductor in 1960, was his drivers name Burdett? I spent six years at Bramley as a conductor than driver. I became a ticket Inspector in 1968 and a depot inspector in 1969, spending my last 10 years as a depot inspector at Torre Road.
Happy days.
Ian Powell
10/09/11 – 08:18
Hi Ian
My dad was called Tommy and he did spend many years working with a driver called Burdett whose first name was Arthur. Later he worked with Johnnie Calvert who was a character and drove the first one man double decker in 1969 His final driver was Dick Clough who was one of the last tram drivers. My dad retired in 1984 but sadly passed away in 1985 I still have his LCT cap badges and PSV conductors badge. Sadly as an outsider I feel that much of the fun enjoyed by bus people in my dad’s day no longer occurs.
Chris Hough
04/11/11 – 07:12
Does anyone know where I can see or buy photos of Leeds City Transport Department buses in the BLUE livery which lasted certainly until about 1950, and possibly until the disappearance of the trams in the late 1950s? I particularly want a picture of a No 41 Colton bus. I live in Colton 1949-1951, and can still ‘smell’ the interior of these buses. I’ve sought these pictures in vain on all the websites I can find.
Harry Cockerham
05/11/11 – 07:00
try the sales stalls at Dewsbury bus museum on 13.11.11
Ken Wragg
05/11/11 – 07:01
The last buses delivered to LCT in the blue livery were twenty five Roe bodied AEC Regents numbered 601-625 NUB601 etc
Coloured pictures of Leeds buses in blue are not often seen There is a 1949 AEC Regent under restoration at Keighley bus museum which will carry blue livery Also there is a Roe PS1 in postwar blue and two pre-war AEC Regents in pre-war blue There are pictures of all these vehicles on www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
05/11/11 – 07:02
Chris Hough – after Arthur Burdett became an OMO driver he was also one of the first on the 49 route from Old Farnley to Hyde Park – and if I remember rightly he was also a TGWU official.
Chris Youhill
10/11/11 – 17:05
Chris Hough – A thousand thanks for your response. I just can’t say how grateful I am, having found two photos of No. 41 Leeds buses in Colton on the website you gave details of. Will try to contact the copyright holders. Thank you again.
Harry Cockerham
12/11/11 – 06:08
Glad to be of help Harry. The shot of the Leeds CVG6 in the snow at Colton was taken by me please feel free to use it for personnal use.
Chris Hough
12/11/11 – 14:50
Ditto, Harry you can also use mine of VUG 547 in Colton for personal use.
Paul Haywood
16/03/12 – 15:46
Leeds 441 is on a June 1965 tour, a few days before it was withdrawn from Leeds service. This tour took the bus and its enthusiast passengers to Bradford, then Halifax where it joined former Leeds 440 and a couple of others, in Halifax service as a stop-gap due to late delivery of new Halifax buses.
Photo I think is behind the railway arches at Stanningley Bottoms, parked just of Richardshaw Lane. I have similar photos in colour and black and white a spot of blind-twiddling was indulged in and quite a few tour participants had a go at photographing the bus here.
441 never became a Halifax bus; it was sold for scrap. Pity really. It and its sisters weren’t in bad shape considering their age-several years of life left in them for sure.
A. D. Young
17/03/12 – 06:16
An interesting photo and if I may try to be helpful, certainly not critical, I can’t recognise the surroundings as being anywhere familiar near those railway arches. Top right of the view shows some multi storey flats nearby and I can’t think which they could be.
Chris Youhill
17/03/12 – 07:07
The picture of 441 was taken on the spare parking ground at the top of the old Crossfield Bus Station in Halifax.
Philip Carlton
Here we have two Sheffield Corporation work horses photographed on a very wet grey day. The Leyland is a Titan PD2/30 built 5 years later than the Regent it had a Weymann H31/28R body registration 4494 WB fleet number 494. It also had a concealed radiator which was nicknamed a “Tin Front” this style of radiator first appeared on Titans when in 1952/3 100 special Titan PD2/12s were built for Midland Red and had a similar style radiator to the B.M.M.O. D7. From 1954 and with a slight modifications the Midland Red look unfortunately became the style of concealed radiator for Titans until 1960 when the “scalloped” bonnet as it was called with horizontal slats came along, thank goodness. I’m afraid a sheet of tin with some slots cut in it does absolutely nothing for me, they even left space for the Midland Red badge to go in at the top which Sheffield made use of for displaying the fleet number. I personally don’t think you can beat the AEC Routemaster for the best looking concealed radiator design, if you disagree or have another suggestion please leave a comment.
A full list of Titan and Regent III codes can be seen here.
Here we have yet another Hanson rebuild, they certainly got there moneys worth from their vehicles. My thanks to the HPTG websites Hanson section for the information regarding this bus. This vehicle was originally a 1948 AEC Regal 9621E321 with a Duple C32F half canopy body with the registration DVH 311 and a fleet number 243. In 1953 it was rebuilt by Plaxtons with a full fronted C33F body and was renumbered 322 in the fleet. The final rebuild to a double decker came about in 1958 with a Roe H37/28R body and renumbered again this time to 350, this bus transferred to Huddersfield Corporation on the 1st of October 1969 when they bought out Hansons bus operations. I am not sure if it actually went into service with Huddersfield and if it did for how long, if you know please leave a comment.
27/04/11 – 07:32
Just a note to point out that the registration of 350 was actually NVH 399 not 394. It is incorrectly listed as 394 on the HPTG site, so I’ll let you off this time! It ran for Huddersfield for a few weeks after the takeover
Eric
Thanks for that Eric it certainly looks like a nine to me I have corrected above.
Peter
29/04/11 – 06:45
350 was lucky to survive to Huddersfield Corporation days. In 1963 during a heavy snowfall it crashed through a wall in rural Helme into a field whilst working the Meltham-Huddersfield service. It ended up on it’s side straddling the wall. Considerable damage must have been caused and probably even more in the recovery proccess. However it was repaired and returned to service. There is a picture of it on it’s side on P43 of P. Cardno and S. Harling’s book Hanson of Huddersfield & Their Neighbours.
Eric
18/06/15 – 16:41
As a Huddersfield resident, these pictures bring back memories of an interesting local operator, who had a great capacity – in the manner often used in Yorkshire – of ‘cobbling together’ older chassis and rebodying them to get extra years of service from them. I rarely travelled on Hansons double deckers, but used to travel daily to school in the late 1960’s on their Regal rebuilds, to old ‘Tanks’. To be a passenger on one of them travelling up Lockwood Scar is an experience that was totally unforgettable. Just a shame that I have lost my photos of these wonderful vehicles in service.
It is also good to see a picture of the old Huddersfield bus station, which disappeared in the early 1970’s to make way for the town’s ring road, and has been replaced by a soulless monstrosity that exists till this day. Must admit that the old one had very little protection from the weather
Tim Jackson
Photograph taken by Robert Mack in 1956 copyright held by Don Akrigg
This a shot of a Roe lowbridge bodied Regent III owned by Hebble there as been a shot of one of their Willowbrook lowbridge bodied Regents on site before – search for “Hebble” in the “Find” section of this site. This bus is on route 17 which was Bradford to Halifax via Queensbury. Bradford Corporation did not have any lowbridge vehicles nor did Halifax and both ran services to Queensbury so why did Hebble only have lowbridge vehicles at the time this shot was taken. Hebble acquired their first highbridge vehicles in 1957 and were three rear entrance Regent Vs, there must of been another route that needed the lowbridge vehicles. Hebble did have a Bradford to Bingley route via Wilsden which may have encountered a low bridge of the old railway line. If you know why Hebble had an all lowbridge fleet until 1957 please leave a comment. This vehicle was originally numbered 46 but was renumbered in 1957 and was withdrawn from service in 1962 only twelve years.
A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.
Hebble had no highbridge buses until the depot was modified, after this highbridge buses for some years (Regent V’s) had cream fronts to distinguish them from lowbridge buses. The depot roof being raised but not the full area and thus there were dangerous places for high buses to go.
Oddly Todmorden had the same problem and both ended up as part of Halifax.
Christopher
I had a very soft spot for these fine vehicles in their lovely traditional maroon and brown original livery. They shared the Samuel Ledgard terminus in King Street Leeds by the GPO wooden parcels office, and appear in the background on many Ledgard pictures.
They set off here for Burnley or Rochdale on services 15 and 28, and left at twenty past and ten to the hour. A particularly congested time was from 5.15pm to 5.30pm Mondays to Fridays when there were six departures in ten minutes:- two of the fine Hebble vehicles and, four good old Ledgard’s, 5.27pm to Rawdon, 5.28pm to Guiseley White Cross, 5.29pm to Ilkley and 5.30pm to Ilkley. All were heavily loaded and the bus industry was still healthy, although about to “catch a cold” in those happy days.
Chris Youhill
15/08/11 – 13:25
I rode on these often on the 17 Bradford-Halifax via Queensbury route.
This route was interworked with the Halifax-Bradford via Shelf Route 7 in that the bus started on Route 17 Halifax-Queensbury-Bradford then Route 7 Bradford-Shelf-Halifax then 7 to Bradford via Shelf and finally 17 back to Halifax via Queensbury.
It used to take two and a half hours full trip (I’ve done it). This arrangement survived the demise of Hebble when the routes become joint Bradford CT and Halifax routes 76/77 and then PTE routes 576 577. I remember round trips on Metro Halifax’s Ailsa and the Metropolitan demo. Hope this may be of interest.
Kev
15/08/11 – 21:49
Before using the 9.6 litre Regents on the 19 service, Bradford to Bingley, Hebble used their 1946 Regal II single decks, with Weymann bodies, new in 1946. 19 was on “home territory” and I do not recollect any lowbridge necessity on the route.
What intrigues me is why Hebble reverted to 7.7 Regents with the CJX Willowbrook batch.
I well remember some City of Oxford lowbridge utility Guys running, on loan, on the 19 route, but I cannot remember the year! Mind you, cannot remember much of note these days!
John Whitaker
26/08/11 – 07:11
Hebble’s fifteen Roe-bodied Regent III’s 26-37, and 44-46 were 0961 or 9612E models with 9.6 litre engines and preselector gearboxes.
The four Willowbrook-bodied Regent III’s 67-70, were not 7.7 models, but type 9613A with 9.6 litre engines and D124 crash gearboxes. This previously long running and successful gearbox design proved troublesome when matched to the 9.6 unit and after a short time these four had them replaced with synchromesh boxes as used on the Regent V. Some late Regent III’s had this box fitted from new, being model 9613S, but these Hebble ones remained officially 9613A.
They were wonderful buses apart from the poor visibility through the front upper deck windows. Their interiors had polished woodwork which gave a much more quality feel than the painted wood of the Roe-bodied ones. They sounded great too.
John Stringer
27/08/11 – 14:18
The 9613A was fitted to quite a few post 1950 Regent IIIs and was not up to the challenge. Most were retro-fitted with syncromesh boxes – as was the case with Sheffield’s 1952 Roe bodied batch of 9. They were meant to be delivered with syncro boxes but apparently AECs own syncro box had not been developed sufficiently so they were delivered, in the interim, with D124 boxes. [So the story goes.]
David Oldfield
01/07/12 – 09:48
This has been a very nostalgic visit. I was trying to find out what buses would take people from Bradford to Shipley Glen in 1959, and thought maybe it was the Hebble. Can anyone confirm that?
My mother used to say, ‘Time, tide and Hebble wait for no man and once you’re on ’em, they can shek yer liver pin out.’ !
Lynda Finn
04/07/12 – 05:10
Lynda It wouldn’t have been Hebble to Shipley Glen, the nearest they would be would be Cottingley Bar on the Duckworth Lane to Bingley route – a good 2 miles away.
Until the withdrawal of the trolleybuses the nearest you could get on the South side of the river would be Saltaire (either by Trolleybus or West Yorkshire Keighley bound buses – necessitating a walk down Victoria Road and across the river. When motorbuses were introduced Bradford City Transport (blue buses) introduced a service down Victoria Road to Salts Mill (23) which showed ‘Shipley Glen’ on the front but you still had to walk across the river – and then in all cases you had to either use the Shipley Glen Tramway if it was running or walk up the path to the Glen.
On the North side of the river West Yorkshire buses to Baildon via Baildon Green (61) got you a tad nearer and they eventually introduced a service 60 in the early 60’s along the Coach Road virtually to the bottom of the tramway. I think this also showed (more accurately) ‘Shipley Glen’. By the way – and John Whitaker will confirm – your Mum was absolutely right with her saying !
Gordon Green
The last in my collection of York Pullman vehicles, that’s worth showing that is, shot into sun again, apart from having my finger in front of the lens I couldn’t have got it more wrong. Anyway this shot does show off York Pullmans distinctive livery, there was a darker yellow band below the windows unfortunately the upper band does not show very well in this shot. York Pullman took delivery of three of these Regent IIIs in 1954 JDN 667-9 fleet numbers 63-5 fortunately number 64 was restored by Tony Peart to a very high standard and on his death passed to the Lincolnshire Vintage Vehicle Society.
A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.
Chassis, body, operator – almost perfection. [Well you know I prefer heavy weight AECs – or heavy anything, come to that!] …..and if my bad photos turned out like this one I’d be very happy.
David Oldfield
A very handsome vehicle in a very handsome livery, and the shadow cast by the sun shows the waist rail up a treat. For anyone interested, there is a video clip on ‘you tube’ aboard 64 (JDN 668), touring around Lincoln. Whilst watching and listening to this, I could not help thinking that the gearbox sounds were very similar to those of pre-war AECs. Was the gearbox of prewar design by any chance, or a modified version perhaps?
Brendan Smith
I suspect the aural beauty of all manual AEC boxes lay in their pre-war origins.
David Oldfield
I would also like to associate myself with the affection expressed for the music of the AEC manual gearbox. My early recollections are of Midland General specimens (including some pre-war front entrance Regents), various Trent examples, and later Grimsby’s ex-London Transport STLs. Just a few weeks ago I had the enjoyment of the same sounds on a preserved Regal/Strachans during the Kingsbridge 7ft 6in running day – all the way from Kingsbridge to Totnes and back – a hilly run with plenty of second and even first gear work.
Stephen Ford
Yet another vote here for the glorious sounds of the AEC manual gearboxes. The much travelled and totally rebuilt example that we had at Samuel Ledgard’s (FJW 938) was a fine example of the original sounds with further fascination from a good deal of wear – originally a Birmingham Corporation Regent 1 it arrived with us as a “Regal” coach with Burlingham bodywork (the rebuilding by Don Everall of Wolverhampton). It was a joy to work on but its raucous subtleties (if that’s not a contradiction in terms) didn’t filter through to the passengers – their loss of course !! When the new Regent Vs arrived further aural delights were to be enjoyed. These fine vehicles had a rather higher pitched and “purer” sound which disguised the already civilised and quiet 9.6 litre engines somewhat and gave a distinct “petrol” impression – those senior ones among us have experienced some glorious times which are not to be had on service work today.
Chris Youhill
Oh Chris. Don’t get me started again about STD Regents on the hills of Sheffield and Derbyshire!
David Oldfield
The place to stand, if I recall hazy memories, was the middle of Shude Hill in Sheffield as the many buses climbed towards High Street. The AEC’s, especially the “big bore” Regent V’s would blast hot exhaust across the central island, but the III’s would sometimes seem to have what we boy racers would call valve bounce. As for the tin-front Titans- was it more a sort of strangled wheeze? That may be inaccurate, but I do remember one Regent going up at full chat and a man saying to a woman next to me “that’ll singe tha nylons luv”!
Joe
Sheffield bought 86 AEC Regent III in 1955/6 incorporating the new look front more usually associated with the Regent V model.
The first to arrive were a batch of 32 for the B fleet numbered 1251 – 1282 with handsome Roe bodies. 1265 is shown outside the Roe premises at Crossgates, Leeds prior to delivery. I wonder if this was the first of the batch to be completed hence the official photograph? I always felt that these were a bit heavy looking with the blue radiator surround, I believe they were referred to as ‘bluebottles’.
The total batch for the B fleet numbered 41 buses but what were to have been Roe bodied 1283 – 1291 were delivered to the A fleet as 736 – 744 and an equivalent number of the original A fleet order (bodied by Weymann) were fitted with lowbridge bodywork and took the numbers 1283 – 1291 in the B fleet. These were used to double deck the Dinnington services 6 and 19 which operated under a restricted height bridge at South Anston. Roe were quite capable of building lowbridge bodies (see other Roe product photos on this site) and I wonder why Roe didn’t simply supply the last nine as lowbridge vehicles? No doubt there was a reason for it at the time.
Although this particular bus was withdrawn in 1969, 1251 and 1254 lasted until 1973 – at 18 years old, a fair age for what was by then a low capacity obsolete (open rear platform) design. All ended up with various Barnsley area scrapmen.
A few points to note in the photograph: the difference in shading between the 12 and 65 of the front and side fleet numbers and the legal ownership by the British Transport Commission, also the missing fog lamp and the semaphore trafficator arm in front of the nearside front window.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.
30/04/11 – 06:59
I would like to help with the Sheffield J.O.C query regarding the 1955 intake of AEC Regent III buses.
At the time of the order, SJOC required 41 chassis with 9.6 litre engines and synchromesh gearboxes. An important requirement was for the “New Look” bonnet structure. At the time, the Mark V model featured a revised bonnet design, but only with the 7.75 litre engine. To meet the Sheffield request, AEC agreed to supply 41 Regent III chassis, to incorporate the “New Look” structure. C.H.Roe were to supply 41 bodies to H33/25R layout, to a height of 14ft 2 1/2ins. The modified design featured a lower deck framed in teak and upper deck in light alloy.
A problem arose when SJOC wished to increase fares on the category B services.The Yorkshire Transport Authority refused the application and the reason was that there were too many single deck services, some needing duplicate buses. The YTA suggested that more efficiency was needed, suggesting that some low height double deckers should be acquired. To this end Sheffield asked C.H Roe to modify nine of the outstanding contract to be built to low height 55 seaters. Although nine of the 41 chassis had not been delivered ALL the bodies had been built, some placed on trestles to await the chassis delivery. The result was that Weymann were asked to change an order for 45 similar Regent chassis, from H32/26R layout to L27/28R on 9 of the chassis. In consequence, Roe lettered the 9 completed buses to category A finish and the Weymann 9 lettered for the B fleet.
Keith Beeden
30/04/11 – 15:25
Thank you for the explanation Keith. Clear and concise as always.
John Darwent
30/04/11 – 20:50
Thank you Keith for that really interesting explanation about the highbridge/lowbridge body supply swap.
Ian Wild
02/05/11 – 12:59
Why haven’t you heard me pontificating about this picture? I’ve been away! Keith certainly answers the question of why they weren’t Regent Vs. Subsequent D3RV Regent Vs were almost identical to these Regent IIIs. It’s a shame that Roe didn’t build the low heights. The Weymann Regent IIIs and Vs were the nadir of the coach-builders art (stripped back and single skinned) and 1283 – 1291 were by far the ugliest non Utility buses ever operated by STD. Roe would have made a far better – or at least far more attractive – job of it.
David Oldfield
03/05/11 – 08:17
Wonderful looking vehicles these, especially in this Roe version of the Sheffield livery, and even after first repaint, when they acquired a grey roof. Perhaps the nicest sounding buses ever in the fleet, as well.
Although not visible in this view, I feel pretty certain it was this batch at least that had a white stick with a small red ball on top, attached to the top of the nearside wing, to aid drivers when pulling into the kerb, considering these ‘new look’ fronts did not afford the same view from the cab that the traditional narrower bonnet and ‘stand alone’ mudguard arrangement did. Could these have been fitted at Queens Road after suggestions from driving staff, perhaps?
Dave Careless
03/05/11 – 16:42
Dave, you are absolutely correct about the markers. I suspect it was a Queens Road affair because I seem to recall a few, but not all, of the Weymann Regent IIIs with markers. You can’t beat AEC/Roe for me, but these combined the musical (pre-war style) manual gearbox with the throaty exhaust. The latter disappeared with the Regent V but there were odd members of both the Regent III and V Weymanns (such as 751 and 792) which had a different gearbox which was “even more musical” – almost like the crash boxes in Guy Arab IV/V and Daimler CCG6.
David Oldfield
04/05/11 – 06:35
Interesting comment David, re-AEC music. I visited Paignton in 1960 when most of the Devon General services were operated by Regent/Weymanns of, I guess, about 1950 vintage. The sound was neither the melodious pre-war type crash gearbox, nor the “wail” of the manual Regent V (I know I’m liable to get lynched for calling it that), though it is some resemblance to both. It was certainly not the classic pre-selector sound either. I never came across it anywhere else, though I guess it must have been a standard transmission option.
Stephen Ford
04/05/11 – 06:37
I don’t remember Roe lowbridge bodies of this particular style being very numerous on AEC Regents, of course West Riding had them aplenty on Guy and Leyland. But if the Sheffield ones had been supplied by Roe, we can have a good impression of how they would have looked from the view of UWT 876 in the United Services posting, perhaps without the platform doors, but very handsome!
Chris Barker
04/05/11 – 06:42
I share your appreciation of the fine standard of Roe elegance coupled to the inspirational sounds of the Regent 111 9613S vehicles.751 and 792 (a D3RV type) may have been fitted with hardened gear wheels, which resulted from the earlier synchromesh problems. This modification did endow a similar whine to the Guy Arab 1V.Incidentally, at least one of the three Regal 1V/Roe single deckers, OWE 12-14 received this modification to emit Guy type sounds.
There is one more significant fact to report which relates to the 45 Regent 9613S chassis with Weymann Orion bodies, which were altered to nine to low height buses. Originally, 45 Leyland PD2/20 chassis were ordered with Orion bodies to the new “Tin Front” style. They were for the Walkley-Intake tramway conversion, due in 1956. Previously, the Leyland synchromesh gearbox featured constant mesh for 1st gear and Synchromesh on 2nd,3rd and 4th. After the contract had been signed and sealed, the Contracts engineer C.C.Hall discovered that second gear had constant mesh engagement, only 3rd and 4th having synchromesh. This was disastrous, as the Walkley and Intake routes featured some very steep hills and many of the drivers would be ex tram men. An easy change from 1st to 2nd or 3rd to 2nd was essential. Sheffield offered to pay extra to include an easy change 2nd ratio. Unfortunately, Leyland refused to provide this facility.
The outcome was that the PD2/20 order was cancelled and AEC were asked to supply 45 more 9613S chassis, in addition to the 41 already on order.
This situation was resolved by good old competition, where an alternative supplier was available!
Keith Beeden
05/05/11 – 06:48
As an AEC man from a boy (!) riding to aforementioned Weymann Regent IIIs and Vs on both the 95 and the 51, it shocked me to read in C C Halls excellent book that Sheffield were in fact Leyland operators who dual sourced from AEC rather than either an AEC operator or a 50/50 operator.
As I’ve said before, old age and maturity have also made me a Leyland man, but definitely second to AEC. This Leyland lack of syncro on second was very evident on the PD3s (recently posted) when setting off from rest at the bottom of Meadowhead – especially with a full load.
Interesting, though, that 43 self-same PD2/20 were delivered (with Roe bodywork) in 1957 and then 40 PD2/30 in 1957/8 divided equally between Roe and Weymann – the latter being of the type you mentioned in the cancelled order.
David Oldfield
05/05/11 – 06:50
It is interesting to consider different operators views on the ‘new look’ front from within the same county. Sheffield specified Regent III’s with the Regent V type front to give the vehicles a modern appearance at a time when Britain was emerging out of post-WW2 austerity. In contrast Doncaster, Leeds and Huddersfield bought Regent V’s but specified the Regent III style exposed radiator. It seems the view of these three operators was the very reverse of Sheffield’s. These three Yorkshire operators were sticking to tradition and apparently having nowt to do with modernity!
On the other hand this being Yorkshire – was the Regent III type radiator cheaper? (Provocative comment from a Lancastrian – couldn’t resist!)
Philip Halstead
05/05/11 – 12:16
Aye, but we’re a rum lot in Sheffield – being on the edge of outer darkness with Derbyshire. Canny wi’ brass but appreciating the finer things in life!?
David Oldfield
06/05/11 – 06:44
Nottingham also went for the old look exposed radiators on its 65 Regent V/Park Royals (209-273) delivered 1955/56.
Stephen Ford
06/05/11 – 07:04
In reply to the two David’s comments on the AEC Regent 111/Mark V with bonnet markers, I can confirm that they were fitted at Queens Road works. Some drivers complained of poor visibility to the nearside when approaching stops or close passing. During the early and mid thirties, AEC fitted this type of marker on Regent and Regal vehicles. This knowledge would be known by the engineering staff, to be produced in house.
Keith Beeden
06/05/11 – 07:07
Leeds took both AEC and Leyland chassis with exposed radiators for ease of maintenance. It took a change of GM to bring in enclosed radiators on both chassis and only 20 Leylands were delivered with this layout. To the very end Leeds AECs had a polished bonnet an anachronism maybe but a sight to set the juices flowing for this (then) teenager. Absolute poetry in motion!
Chris Hough
11/12/11 – 07:01
what about MANSFIELD DISTRICT TRACTION? Nobody hardly ever mentions these buses,also very few coloured photos about.They shared the same depot on Sutton Road Mansfield Notts.
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