Leeds City Transport 1964 AEC Reliance 2MU2RA Roe B41D
Seen in April 1970 is Leeds City Transport No. 46, 46 KUA, an AEC Reliance 2MU2RA with Roe B41D bodywork, one of four, Nos. 44 – 47, 44 – 47 KUA delivered in 1964. These followed an earlier order for six similar vehicles in 1962, Nos 39 – 43, 839 – 843 CUM. I understand that all these Reliances had quite a short life of around 8 years or so with Leeds.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
03/12/18 – 07:13
I can’t comment on the others, but 45 and 47 went to Aberdeen. I have a view of each from the late Arnold Richardson’s collection.
Pete Davies
04/12/18 – 06:33
All four were new in August 1964 and withdrawn in December 1970. 44 and 45 went to Aberdeen on 30th June 1971, being followed on 7th July by 46 and 47, retaining the same fleet numbers.
John Kaye
05/12/18 – 07:46
Oh dear, that destination box doesn’t look comfortable, balanced up there.
Petras409
11/12/18 – 07:43
These Reliances really came too late. They were in effect an update of the standee single deckers 29-38, to the same 30ft. length when 36 ft. had become available. Getting 41 seats into the shorter length, with dual doors meant they had poor access/exit and tight seat spacing. As with many AECs of that design they were not comfortable, or liked by passengers or drivers. Just two years later, the first 36 ft. Swifts with wider doors, easier steps and 48 better spaced seats arrived. They may not have been great, but they were better. In a year or so there were 50 Swifts in operation and 39 to 46 were consigned to relief work and then sale.
Andy Buckland
13/12/18 – 05:53
Several of these also ended up in Scotland with Greyhound of Arbroath.
Chris Hough
07/01/19 – 07:12
I’ve sometimes wondered what was so wrong with the AEC Swift and the Leyland Panther that caused many operators to not get on with them, prematurely retire them (especially London’s AECs) and overall have bad experiences, while the conceptually similar Bristol RE seems to have commonly led a full life with its original operators. It’s not as if they did not incorporate standard components in use elsewhere.
Bill
12/01/19 – 08:23
In the absence of a more comprehensive reply from someone who knows more, I will say that one of the differences between Bristol’s approach and the Panther/Swift approach was the position of the driveline and its effect on weight distribution. In the Panther and Swift the engine and gearbox were at the extreme rear of the overhang, whereas the RE had the engine further forward, with the gearbox in front of the rear axle.
Peter Williamson
16/01/19 – 07:27
The Panther also had a much weaker frame causing bending and breaking. Even in preservation I can think of a couple where following you can see the curve.
Roger Burdett
17/01/19 – 07:09
The radiator for the Swift was not at the front, as in the Panther or the RE, but tucked away behind a panel in the bodywork behind the offside back wheels. Although this arrangement probably insured against air locks in the cooling system, it restricted the flow of cooling air over the surface of the radiator and could result in the engine overheating.
John B
18/01/19 – 06:30
My Foden which has the Rad in the same position still airlocks so concur John B comment.
Roger Burdett
18/01/19 – 06:32
In the Bristol RE the drive went forward from the engine to the gearbox located in front of the rear axle, and then back again to the differential. This gave a prop shaft of decent length to accommodate the suspension travel of the rear axle, something that competitive designs (the worst being the Seddon RU) lacked. Contrary to popular belief, the RE did not pioneer this layout. The Rutland Clipper of 1954 used a similar arrangement.
West Riding Automobile 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Roe B41D
In 1956 West Riding turned to the AEC Reliance for its limited bus saloon requirements, taking twelve with Roe B44F bodies characterised by a “droopy” lower line to the windscreen. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ The Reliance then became the choice for the coach fleet with Roe C41C bodies, and in 1961 twelve of the 2MU3RV chassis type arrived carrying Roe B41D bodywork of which THL 921, fleet number 921 is an example. No more Reliances were purchased before West Riding sold out to the National Bus Company in 1967. This picture was taken in April 1970 before the corporate dead hand of Freddie Wood fell in 1972, after which the poppy red livery was inflicted upon West Riding.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
18/05/20 – 06:38
A stylish yet functional design enhanced by a smart livery. More attractive than the standard (Alexander in the cases of PMT and Trent) BET version of the time.
Ian Wild
17/06/20 – 07:19
These dual bodied Roe bodied Reliance saloons felt very solid indeed. They lasted until 1973 when they were ousted by new Leyland Nationals. None of the batch was repainted into National Bus Company red, and these along with the elderly Guy ArabIV of 1957 vintage stood out from the mainly repainted fleet by early 1973. They were probably the last traditional green single deckers in service.
MarkyB
18/06/20 – 06:45
I was recounting, only last week, to a friend retired from the industry that C H Roe were among the coachbuilding greats and, against a general trend and tide, retained a composite structure which produced high quality bodies of a generally attractive appearance; robust, well built and well finished. These, and the traditional deckers, were among the best bodies available (in every sense). Following in Crossley’s footsteps, the introduction of PRV frames (particular on the Atlantean and similar bodies on various front engined chassis) brought the nadir of Roe bodywork. They were ugly in the extreme and time revealed them also to be rot boxes. They did solve these problems – but not in the OBP era.
David Oldfield
03/05/21 – 07:19
A snippet of information for fans of the AEC Reliance. A 1961 AEC Reliance (WKG 287, the last of a sequence number-plated WKG 276-287) was still in daily service with Henley’s of Abertillery, Wales in the 1990s, making it the oldest service vehicle still in daily use on a public route.
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1957 AEC Regent V Roe HBB66R
Photographed at Scarborough bus station this Beverly Bar styled Regent V with normal V radiator is on route to Bridlington via the Butlins Holiday camp at Filey. I have now found my old fleet lists above information comes from one dated 20th February 1964 the only other snippet of information other than above is that this bus had a 9.6 litre engine
This was the last East Yorkshire full height bus with a Beverly Bar roof to enter service, it is now preserved and appears on the Northern Rally circuit.
Chris Hough
When I travelled daily from Hedon to Withernsea School on 651/652 they were always known as “Hovercrafts”. Don’t know why.
Martin Ferris
Eeee Martin, that takes me back. I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 – a Utopian posting for a lifelong devotee of the wonderful East Yorkshire Motor Services. Mark V Regents were still to come of course, but oh what treats you would have enjoyed on your school journeys a little earlier – Leyland PD1s and often, on duplicates from Hull Depot, the gorgeous ECW rebodied pre-war Titan TD5s. Due no doubt to a temporary shortage of transfers, or possibly a most enchanting mistake, some of the PD1s had on the platform rear wall the fabulous instruction “WAIT UNTIL THE COACH STOPS.” One of the Motor Transport drivers at our Patrington camp came to the end of his long regular service with the RAF and joined EYMS at Withernsea Depot – I’ve NEVER been as green with envy of anyone before or since. His surname was Mitchell (Mitch) and I hope he’s still around but will be well in his “eighties” by now.
Chris Youhill
With regards to Martins question two up:
Noise? Vibration? Pitching? Deafening engine fan? Ability to deal with run off water from fields?
Yet another example of a Regent V with a Regent III radiator. If I remember Leeds city Transport buses were nearly all semi automatic or had clutch less gearboxes of some description probable to help them off to quick start from the bus stops.
894 is the last of a huge batch which were ordered as tram replacements. The next batch numerically were fitted with 8′ wide bodies.
Terry Malloy
The last batches of post-war LCT buses to have full three pedal “clutch and gearbox” transmission were the Crossleys, the Leyland PD1s, the sixty Leyland PD2s (NNW batch), the six “standee” single deckers (2 Guy, 3 AEC Reliance and 3 Leyland Tiger Cub) – so rather more than is generally realised !!
Chris Youhill
Hi everyone, I meant to post this link a while ago, finally got around to it. www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=39972 It shows the first delivery of these vehicles to Torre Road Depot.
Terry Malloy
I think the reason for preferring clutchless transmissions, in common with several other municipal operators, was the need to retrain large numbers of tram drivers in a very short time. Far fewer people owned cars in those days, and many of those tram drivers would never have driven a motor vehicle. What about the PD2/11s (UUA batches)? I know some of them were specials with pneumo-cyclic transmission, but I didn’t think they all were.
Peter Williamson
The last manual gearbox double deckers were the sixty “NNW” Leyland PD2s. All subsequent double deck vehicles being semi automatic of one kind or another. Thereafter all AECs and Daimlers were either three pedal pre-selector or two pedal “monocontrol.” All Leylands were two pedal pneumo-cyclic with the exception of the batch of ten “RNW”s (301 -310) which were three pedal pre-selector, and were the only ones made other than the London Transport RTLs and RTWs. Passionately wishing to drive one of the latter, I booked a piece of teatime overtime out of Bramley and persuaded a bemused but helpful shift foreman to let me take 307, one of the only two remaining at the time – a great experience !!
Chris Youhill
31/07/12 – 05:43
The clutch you are referring to was a gear changing pedal (NOT A CLUTCH) they were known as preselctors, I used to love to drive them brings back memories going up Churwell Hill in the old girls, (52/53 Morley)
Roger Hopper
07/11/12 – 16:47
Snivelling out of Bramley Chris? You’re very lucky one of the PD1s wasn’t compulsory for you! When we had these at Torre Road Garage (301 – 310) we used to complain bitterly that they wouldn’t “Pull” up hills. Scott Hall Road 69 & 70 routes used to see old Hunslet MK3s flying past us. The regular Bramley drivers (used to PD1s & PD2s used to use a form of “double declutching” on these and other preselector buses – preselecting neutral between gears. Don’t know if this helped or not. Perhaps the Bramley mechanics knew how to tune them up properly as I never heard of any complaints about lack of power when the Bramley drivers got hold of them.
Bill Midgley
08/11/12 – 07:16
Most interesting memories Bill, thank you, and I had forgotten or was never aware that the “RTL”s had been at Torre Road. On that one joyous occasion that I drove 307 I found it went very well – unless I was mesmerised by the wonderful concerto of gurglings, compressed air hissings and tick over wobblings so as not to notice, and of course there were virtually no real hills on that particular piece of work, the entire outward journey from Bramley in the west to Barnbow Factory in the east being “private.” The Bramley practice you mention of “double de-clutching” is completely unorthodox, baffling, and quite un-necessary, and surely can have no advantage at all – in fact it entirely defeats the object of faultless gear changes for which the system was invented !!
Chris Youhill
08/11/12 – 11:12
Ah, but it must have been harder to fiddle a CVD or CWD like. The gearchange was not an H-gate but a quadrant, so the neutral position was not between the gears. Having said that, the sheer driver-crippling vindictiveness of the change pedal has entered the annals of bus folk-lore!
Stephen Ford
10/11/12 – 10:20
Chris, these buses were new to Torre Road Garage and serviced the 69 Moortown and 70 Primley Park via Scott Hall Road services. The crews were on the TRG Rota – the precursor to getting a “Regular” on a main route. At TRG, these were :- Dewsbury Road – Moortown – Middleton, Morley – Meanwood, East End Park Circular (included Moortown-Whitkirk & Leeds – Bradford), Lawnswood – Beeston, Half Mile Lane & Compton Road – Horsforth. Nearly everyone wanted to get onto Lawnswood because it had the best duty sheets – usually two “dinnertimes” in a late week. I worked out of TRG from 1958 – 1960 and had a “Regular” on Dewsbury Road before I went off to Headingley. When I first started, I was the youngest conductor on LCT being eighteen and two weeks! Ah! Those were the days – or maybe not!
York Pullman Bus Company Ltd 1957 AEC Regent V MD3RV Roe H33/28RD
A “could have been better” shot of a York Pullman Regent V with its rear doors closed. Talking of which does anybody know how the rear doors worked, were they air operated by the driver or operated by the conductor either manually or air assisted. I once went by normal service bus to Scarborough from Halifax via Bradford, Leeds and York, so the chances of going on a West Yorkshire K series with rear doors on route would be odds on I would of thought. But I can not remember the operating system of the doors, if you know please leave a comment. I was obviously new to the skills of photograph back in 1966, the number of shots I have that were taken into the sun is amazing. The trouble is, with half cab buses the more interesting side is the near side which is not the easiest side to take angle wise. So when a chance for a near side shot came up you took it and hoped for the best, I could always retouch out the shadow that’s not a difficult job but then the shot would loose its originality.
Don’t know how the doors on the York Pullman AEC in your photo worked, but the West Yorkshire K series buses all had conductor operated doors. As often as not, the doors were left open except when the conductor had finished collecting fares and knew that it was unlikely that the bus would stop soon. Obviously, opening and closing the door was virtually impossible when the bus was frequently stopping and starting, when the conductor would be busy collecting fares, particularly on the top deck. Going from York to Scarborough, for example, (Route 43), the door would probably be left open until the bus had reached the outskirts of the city.
Roy Burke
The answer to your question is the rear door on the York Pullman Regent V was operated by the conductor. My late dad was a driver with York Pullman and I can say he has driven this and all the buses in the old fleet he was paired with Danny Weaver his conductor and yes I am a bus and coach driver, if you would like any more info on the old York Pullman then if I can I will only be to pleased to do so. I remember very well the old depot on Navigation Road, York then Peter Dew and his ‘Top Line Travel’ buses worked out of there when it was a car park how do I know? I drove for him and it is a pleasure and honour to drive from the same place as my late dad. I have spent many happy hours at the York Pullman depot dreaming of driving a bus sad but true.
Andy Tyler
Hi, I am clutching at straws here at the moment but I am trying to find out information on my father, Mr Donald Fewster who worked on York Pullman buses in the 1960s. Any information would be very gratefully received.
Brian Lloyd
I have just been reading the above comments and yes I remember Ada and Ted and also George Tyler. I believe George had the nickname Eggie because he used to be a driver delivering eggs. My Dad, Gerry Rank worked for York Pullman from 1939 until his retirement in 1990. He was a mechanic/driver. I have ridden many miles on their buses and coaches. My Mum was also a clippie, Molly, until I was born in 1956
Liz Greene nee Rank
Gosh, this is stretching the purpose of this site rather, but I was intrigued by Brian Lloyd’s enquiry about his father, Donald Fewster. That isn’t a very common name and there can’t have been many Fewsters in York, so maybe I, (or rather my dad), knew a relative of Brian’s. He was Alf Fewster, who had a greengrocer’s round with a horse and cart, and, later a Jowett Javelin, (Reg No. FDN 750). Any use, Brian?
Roy Burke
14/09/11 – 17:01
I clicked on this website cause I’m trying to find anyone who knew my dad, Geoffery Phillips, who worked for York Pullman until he left in 1990 ish. I know he knew Pete Dew and he used to say that the company was called Raynard Pullman. is this true? any help gratefully received.
Andy Phillips
15/09/11 – 09:31
York Pullman was bought out by a Father and Son called Marsh, who had earlier bought the Reynard Car Hire and Garage business, they had previously bought Broadbent of Stamford Bridge and Walkers of Tadcaster and combined them as Reynard Coaches. After the takeover, York Pullman traded as Reynard Pullman. In 1990 the York Pullman Coach business was sold to Hull City Transport. The bus part of the business was renamed Reynard Bus and was sold to the Rider Group (later to be part of First Group) later in the Year. York Pullman later passed to Durham Travel Services and then, in 2000 to First Group. The Current York Pullman was formed in 2007 by K and J Logistics.
D Hick
15/09/11 – 09:55
The original owners sold York Pullman to Reynard of Tadcaster in the late eighties adopting the name Reynard Pullman They in turn sold the coaching side of the business to Hull City Transport while the stage services went eventually to First
Chris Hough
16/09/11 – 09:33
On a visit to York last year, I had a walk along to Navigation Road to see if the depot remained. I had never been before and there didn’t seem to be any sign of it. Is it now demolished or re-developed?
Chris Barker
17/09/11 – 08:04
Yes-demolished a few years ago and replaced with student accommodation.
D Hick
15/01/12 – 16:41
Last time I saw this bus it was in a state with the engine out and wires everywhere, the body had been lifted of the chassis. I looked with a view of restoring it but bought Chesterfield Daimler 266 instead.
N.Hegedus
16/01/12 – 11:41
Don’t worry Andy Tyler – you’re far from being alone and its not sad at all. I spent much of my childhood and teenage years around the Samuel Ledgard depots at Ilkley, Otley, Yeadon and Armley “dreaming about driving a bus” (and West Yorkshire at Ilkley too) and succeeded in doing just that – for forty four years. I worked for many fascinating firms – Samuel Ledgard, West Yorkshire, Murgatroyds, Wallace Arnold, Independent Coachways, Leeds City Transport, South Yorkshire Road Transport, Caldaire (West Riding), British Bus, Cowie, Arriva – a dream come true and no regrets at all !!
Chris Youhill
11/07/12 – 08:10
Another dreamer! I finally learned to drive a bus at 50 years old (passed the test first time) Had 8 years with Southern National (Cawlett era). The stress finally got to me and I retired early. now living in York. Will extract a pic of Navigation road garage being demolished from the hard drive and send a copy in.
W. Everett & Son United Services to give them there full name operated from the Yorkshire village of Kinsley which is between Barnsley and Pontefract they ran services to nearby towns such as Leeds, Wakefield, Barnsley and Doncaster. This bus delivered new to United Services along with UWT 875 another Regent V had a lowbridge body. If you look at first side window on the top deck you will see it has been smashed not by a bridge though looking at the bodywork. United Services had quite a collection of second hand vehicles including a Dennis Loline from Aldershot & District and a very flash looking Titan with a Preston registration so ex Ribble, Scout or Standerwick I would guess. A good place to see more United Services photos is on the United Services section of Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group website to view click here.
This particular United Services was in fact made up of three autonomous family businesses who operated stage carriage services from the late 1920’s/early 1930’s under the United Services brand but also ran their own coach and paddy bus operations. Willie Everett, the founder of W Everett & Son was my Granddad and my uncle Harry is the ‘son’ in the company name. Their bus depot was in South Kirkby near the parish church. The Kinsley depot belonged to Bingley Brothers, one of the other United Service operators (who had bought the business from another family called Granters who had been the first bus operator in the area). Cooper Brothers was the third family business partly operating under the United Services brand and it had a depot at one end of Stockingate in South Kirkby. The bus pictured is almost certainly from the Bingley’s fleet.
John Wrightson
06/10/12 – 18:52
I’m no expert on buses, but I used to travel on the United Services regularly in the fifties. We lived in Morley and my grandma (maternal) lived in Hemsworth, so my mother paid a monthly visit carting me along with her! This involved catching the West Riding 57/58 to Wakefield and then the United Services to Hemsworth. In the days before Wakefield Bus station we’d get off the 57/58 in Wood Street and catch the United at the Springs bus stops. In those days many of the United buses were former coaches and had windows you could wind down, like a car – guess who made a nuisance of himself winding the windows up and down. When the bus station was built it was just a matter of changing platforms. If for some reason we missed the United, we’d catch the West Riding service from Leeds to Hemsworth – but this only went as far as Cross Hills and we had to walk the rest. I recall also another independent operator in Hemsworth – Ideal Motor Services – I wonder what happened to them.
Geoff Bragg
10/10/12 – 09:10
The ‘Ideal’ referred to would almost certainly be, coincidentally, another ‘co-operative’ (they weren’t all that common) – i.e. that of Taylor of Cudworth, and Wray of Hoyle Mill, Barnsley, both trading as ‘Ideal’ and sharing a service running between Barnsley and Pontefract. There is a section on Ideal on this very site. Taylor’s ultimately sold out to Yorkshire Traction, but most of their vehicles passed to Wray’s, who, I think, finished up with more ex-Taylor vehicles than ex-Wray, so to speak. Wray’s continued for a few more years (presumably running in co-ordination with Yorkshire Traction) before themselves selling out to YTC. Another service running between Barnsley and Pontefract (but by a slightly different route) was operated by South Yorkshire Motors, but I don’t know whether or not it ran via Hemsworth.
David Call
David I can help you there, as I worked for South Yorkshire and successors (several) from 1987 until I retired in 2001. Under the WYPTE excellent route numbering scheme the SYRT (joint with Yorkshire Traction) route from Pontefract to Barnsley became 245. The service was basically hourly between Pontefract and Barnsley, with “short workings” to Hemsworth (Highfield Estate) also every hour, making a half hour frequency between Pontefract and Hemsworth – the latter Monday to Saturday daytimes only. The route was via Featherstone, High Ackworth, Fitzwilliam, Kinsley, Hemsworth, Shafton, Cudworth and Lundwood to Barnsley. The SYRT share of the mileage was handed over to Yorkshire Traction, along with the three new SYRT Dennis Darts, late in 1994 after Caldaire Group (West Riding) took over Pontefract depot. There, I bet you wish you’d never asked !!
Chris Youhill
11/10/12 – 07:19
Not at all, Chris, I’ve read a great many of your posts and they’re all enjoyable. One thing I certainly didn’t know was that the Pontefract to Barnsley service was joint SYRT/YTC. Having had a look at the current 245 timetable, and assuming that the Hemsworth shorts interworked with the through service, I would say that four buses were required to run the basic Monday to Saturday service – two SYRT and two YTC? What would have been the Hemsworth shorts look as though they now run through to Barnsley as service 244, and the ex-Ideal service is still recognisable as the 246.
David Call
11/10/12 – 09:05
Thank you David and, yes, you’re right in thinking on “interworking” lines – at least throughout daytime hours Monday to Saturday – and that four vehicles would be needed. The South Yorkshire vehicles (and presumably YT as well) did alternate trips from Pontefract to Barnsley and to Hemsworth Highfields, taking a little under four hours for each cycle. One particularly vicious journey with which we were faced (weekdays) was at 1810 from Pontefract to Barnsley which also diverted via Highfields, a narrow and tortuous estate where by that time of day there was flagrant double parking everywhere. I may be mistaken – its a long time ago now – but I’m pretty sure that South Yorkshire did all the Barnsley journeys on Sundays with two vehicles to balance the mileage agreement, and of course there were no “Highfields” on the Sabbath. I do still visit friends in Pontefract and I think that the whole service network in the region has been considerably modified now, especially since Stagecoach took “Tracky”, and the services running into Pontefract are numbered in the two digit “30s”
Chris Youhill
12/10/12 – 08:23
Indeed. When I checked back it seems that the timetable I had found was dated October 2006 – but still coming up on the internet, of course. What was the 245 has now become the 35, while the ex-Ideal service seems to have blossomed into the 46 and 47. I’m not saying the routes are exactly as they used to be, as you say services have generally been modified.
David Call
12/10/12 – 12:52
Both of the AEC’s, UWT 875/876 were delivered new to Bingleys in April, 1957. Out of curiosity, I looked at Bus Lists because T. Burrows of Wombwell had an identical vehicle, PWY 943. I’ve often wondered if they were ordered together but apparently not. The Burrows machine was delivered a year or so earlier and is listed as an MD3RV with the 7.7ltr. engine, the two Bingleys vehicles were D3RV’s with 9.6ltr. engines. The Roe bodies were identical though.
Chris Barker
13/04/13 – 07:23
Just a slight correction to the original text. The front window isn’t actually smashed – its the reflection of the gable end of the adjoining building – Bingleys only ever turned out pristine vehicles in service. Also they did not operate to Leeds and Barnsley as stated here. South Yorkshire Motors of Pontefract did and the confusion is because they also had a blue and white livery like United Services.
Mark B
31/05/14 – 08:01
Mention of the Ideal service, Barnsley – Pontefract, reminds me of the long service 70, operated jointly by Sheffield JOC and Yorkshire Traction, which ran from Sheffield to Upton. I often wondered why this stopped at Upton and didn’t run through to Pontefract. This would have required a fifth bus and a third operator. The licensing system often made what seemed to be logical routes difficult.
Geoff Kerr
12/08/17 – 07:45
The “United” bus service was operated by a number of Companies in the area as stated. As I recall from growing up in the 50s Bingleys of Kinsley was known as W.R & P Bingleys. From memory I seem to remember that their buses were a darker blue than the one pictured. My Dad (Fred Stacey) did drive for them from time to time on a casual basis. As well as the Coaches used on “Trips” to the coast he would drive the “Mill Buses” which collected the Girls from the Mills and he often drove the Wakefield to Doncaster route along with Frank Bingley. They shared the duties for this using a Daimler Bus which I recall did something like 2 million miles in it’s lifetime. It was always the last bus out of Wakefield Bus Station at the weekend en-route back to Kinsley and if you missed it you walked. Frank lived at the Upton Depot and operated from there. Albert Holmes was the Chief mechanic operating out of Gorton Street Depot in Kinsley and his Son (Paul) and I spent many happy hours playing in the garage known as Hunters Farm Garage. I also vaguely remember the Taxi they had which I believe was a Armstrong Siddeley. These were happy times when life was at a different pace but I would bet journey times were no longer then than now.
David Stacey
30/08/22 – 07:02
I was looking for pictures of United Daimler/Duple (I think) GWW 49 and GWW 50 which I sometimes caught from Cross Hills to Wakefield for school (1949-1957). (Having come on an ‘Ideal’ to Hemsworth from Brierley). United had an elderly ‘high bridge’ double decker, ex-Leeds, I think. Great fun going round bends on the upper deck. One time, early 1950s (?) there was a strike, which didn’t involve ‘United’ crews, but we were made to get off on the outskirts of Wakefield.
Blue Ensign Coaches Ltd 1964 AEC Regent V Roe H41/32F
The Doncaster area seemed to have had more than its fair share of independents and here is another one Blue Ensign. There first route was from Rossington to Doncaster Yorkshire in 1920. I think the reason for the number of independents was all the mining towns in the area and as Blue Ensign they start by running one route to Doncaster. Blue Ensign I think was more as the name suggests a coach operator rather than bus as they only purchased 3 more buses after the one above before selling out to South Yorkshire PTE on the 1st April 1978.
This vehicle still exists although it is now open top at the Sinsheim Transport Museum, Germany.
James Race
Blue Ensign ran from a depot in the centre of Doncaster and had a fleet of six vehicles – 3 coaches and three double deckers, latterly 3 Fleetlines. The double decks were used on the jointly operated Rossington service and were finished in an immaculate livery of blue and cream with gold lining and stainless steel wheel trims
Andrew
My Grandmother “Molly” was a Clippy for Blue Ensign for many years. Grand mother is the only existing member of the crew now. Many days of our childhood were spent sat onboard the bus and meeting the regular passengers that used it. I recall that the busses were all kept immaculate, and the staff were very proud to be part of Blue Ensign. Grandma also arranged several trips and holidays around Britain with their coaches, particularly Teignmouth Devon stopping at a London Hotel, Lake Windermere, Scotland, Blackpool lights, and Woburn Abbey. These are wonderful memory’s.
Gary
Until the 1960s Doncaster was an absolute Mecca for enthusiasts of quality vehicles and operators of character and pride. Many’s the Saturday a group of us from the Leeds area would travel south, and spend a happy afternoon at the Christ Church terminus revelling in the variety to be seen and heard. We also used to take refreshments in the cafe there where, from the chatter of the many crews, we could really absorb the atmosphere of this once fascinating locality.
Chris Youhill
26/04/11 – 07:22
Yesterday sadly my Grandmother Molly passed away. Grandma spent many many years has a clippy for the Blue Ensign I am very proud of my Grandma to be part of the Blue Ensign Rossington bus service. She will be sadly missed by myself and her family.
Mollys Grandson
26/04/11 – 07:24
I’m sorry to read about your Grandma Gary – all the elements of the grand, proud old bus operators are dwindling fast nowadays sadly. I spent my happiest years working for Samuel Ledgard of Leeds – larger of course than the Doncaster area firms and with five depots and 100 + vehicles but the same proud spirit of service nevertheless. The Firm sold out on 14th October 1967 and so there are very few of us left now of course, but along with your Grandmother and the rest we proudly provided a reliable service which is sadly missed today.
Chris Youhill
27/04/11 – 07:23
Sorry to hear this- my condolences. I remember these buses in that immaculate livery: not easy to maintain on those (then) filthy roads with their covering of slurry from the coal wagons.
Joe
18/06/11 – 07:44
I lived in Doncaster towards the end of this magnificently kept vehicles stay with Blue Ensign. We used to travel to school on her every day – and yes, I remember Molly. They (759 NDT, 3568 DT & PDT 497E) were always immaculate – no matter what the weather. I was really sad to see the Regents go – the Daimler replacements were never the same – and then the PTE marched in and bought the company. I rode on the last bus Blue Ensign ran as an independent – a really sad night.
Peter
18/06/11 – 09:19
Too true Peter – the “last nights” of these wonderful proud independent operators are too sad for words. There is always a strange feeling, earlier in the day, that the end has already come and that the final journeys are not “real.”
Chris Youhill
18/06/11 – 18:19
Pre M1/M18 the Oldfield clan regularly made pilgrimages to the East Coast – normally Scarborough – via Rotherham and Doncaster. It was at such time that I came into most regular contact with the famous Doncaster Independents. The blessed C H Roe was the most common sight, but variously on AEC, Daimler, Guy or Leyland chassis. My favourites were the AECs but, as Peter said, anything not half cab was a step down in both quality and character. Fleetlines (and Atlanteans) were the first step on the slippery slope to modern “efficient, characterless sewing-machines” (my quote). The only thing worse was the total destruction, for purely political reasons, of viable operators, up and down the land, of the like of the Doncaster Independents. Progress and change are not always bad, quite the opposite, but it seems always to be the case where the bus industry is concerned. lets fly the Ensign!
David Oldfield
12/04/12 – 06:00
Passing through Doncaster at the weekend, I stopped off for an hour and had a wander round to Cleveland Street and I can report that the old Blue Ensign depot still stands to this day although it’s in a sorry state now, fenced off and semi-derelict. There is a small square building at the front of the yard which I believe was their administration block and booking office for excursions and private hire. Thirty Four years after being taken over, a reminder still exists of a much loved independent whose fleet was always immaculately presented and a credit to the industry!
Chris Barker
03/08/14 – 07:40
There’s a colour picture of 3568 DT at //www.sct61.org.uk/zz3568dta looking absolutely GLORIOUS! Though I grew up in a red and cream area, for some reason I’ve always been partial to blue buses (Alexander Midland, Bradford, 70’s Brighton), but this one tops the lot. By the way, does anyone know whether the upper and lower window surrounds were actually two different colours (“white” and “cream”), or is it just a trick of the light in this picture?
Graham Woods
15/06/16 – 06:16
Graham, It is a trick of the light, it was the same shade of cream at both upper and lower deck windows.
Peter Beevers
10/07/21 – 05:34
Blue Ensign Coaches Ltd was owned by my great grandfather George Ennifer who I am named after. I’m not sure if anybody will see this comment but it has been lovely reading the history and your memories of his company. It has brought me great joy, thank you!
George Ennifer-Stanley
12/07/21 – 16:18
So glad that you found the postings joyful, George. Rest assured that many of the folk who have an interest in this wonderful website will have seen your post. I hope you have clicked on Graham Woods’ link to see the aforementioned bus in full colour!
Doncaster Corporation 1956 AEC Regent V MD3RV Roe H34/28R
If you visit this site on a regular basis the last bus that was on stand was a Sheffield Corporation AEC Regent III that looked like a Regent V here we have a Doncaster Corporation Regent V that looks like a Regent III. It was possible to order the Regent V with an exposed radiator until 1960 which was six years into production before the wide bonnet look took over completely. In 1956 the Bentley trolleybus service in Doncaster was converted to motorbus operation and I think these Regent V buses were acquired to fulfil the part. The AEC code for this bus was MD3RV which meant this bus had the smaller six cylinder 7.68 litre engine with a four speed synchromesh gearbox and triple servo vacuum brakes.
Doncaster was, of course, famous for transferring some of its trolleybus bodies onto PD2 and CVG6 chassis when the trolleys were scrapped. The trolleys had been rebodied fairly recently so the bodies still had lots of life in them, and at least one of the PD2s still survives. They were unmistakable as they retained the thick second body pillar upstairs where the power cables were trunked up to the roof, and on the PDs the body never quite sat right over the windscreen, having a slight overhang.
David Jones
There are actually two survivors of this exercise. All the Daimlers that received the ex trolley bodies were new chassis as were two of the PD2’s however four of the PD2’s were some 16 years old already when their original bodies were scrapped and replaced by an ex trolley body. Both survivors are Leylands and represent 1 each of the ‘old’ and ‘ new’ chassis. When you realise that a lot of the bodies had themselves originally been built on second hand chassis as Doncaster took advantage of good second hand purchases thrown out as other operators closed down their trolleybus systems you’ll realise what a complicated story this was. 94, the oldest survivor actually received the body off EWT 478 that had originally been new to the nearby Mexborough and Swinton fleet in 1943 with a utility single deck body. The six vehicles of this type operated by M&S were bought by Doncaster in late 1954, the original bodies removed and scrapped and the chassis sent to Roe to be fitted with the new double deck bodies that would eventually find their way onto diesel chassis.The ‘new’ trolleybuses entered service in 1955 but would only have eight years use before the Doncaster trolleybus system closed in 1963. Trolleybus 375 and 94 live at Sandtoft Transport Centre.
Andrew
05/05/12 – 16:49
Three Yorkshire municipal operators bought exposed radiator AEC Regent Vs these being Doncaster, Huddersfield and Leeds. With the exception of the last ones bought by Leeds in 1960 all were short length vehicles. The last Leeds examples were the only ones to carry MCW bodywork and the only ones built to maximum dimensions They looked most imposing and were my favourite Leeds buses As far as I am aware the only other company to buy exposed radiator AEC Regent Vs was City of Oxford
Chris Hough
06/05/12 – 08:06
How refreshing Chris to hear favourable comment about Leeds 910 – 924. I too admired them greatly and have spent many hours in total trying to get the detractors to tone down their often wildly exaggerated abuse of these handsome buses. My only criticism of them was, from a driver’s point of view, that tall people like me had great difficulty in seeing in the nearside mirror due to the position of the canopy – I notice that on preserved 916 a mirror with a longer arm which will no doubt of cured that little blip – possibly the others were similarly treated while in service ??
Chris Youhill
06/05/12 – 08:06
Chris, my native Nottingham also bought 65 exposed radiator Regent Vs in 1955/56. They came in two almost identical batches with Park Royal bodies. The first 30 (UTV209-238) seated 61. The remaining 35 (XTO239-273) seated 62. They were the last of a long line of Regents that started in 1929 and over the years totalled 478. Subsequently NCT took 44 Leyland PD2/40s in 1958/9 (the first Leylands in the fleet), but reverted to AEC in 1965 for 42 Renowns which were Nottingham’s last half-cabs.
Stephen Ford
06/05/12 – 08:07
Chris Hough mentions the exposed radiator Regent Vs of Leeds City Transport with MCW bodywork, that dated from 1960 until withdrawal in 1975. Here is No. 915, 3915 UB on a rather dismal day in Leeds in April 1970.
Roger Cox
06/05/12 – 08:08
Rhondda Regent Vs 400-424 all had exposed Radiators and Weymann Orion bodies and I’m sure there were other examples.
David Beilby
06/05/12 – 16:47
Roger’s picture clearly shows the extended mirror arm which I mentioned – so presumably they were all similarly treated. The MCW body sat comfortably and tidily on the exposed radiator chassis. Also of interest in this picture is the destination “Kirkstall Forge” – a fairly unusual short working of services 24/5/6/7 from Swarcliffe to Horsforth.
Chris Youhill
06/05/12 – 16:48
Did anybody besides Sheffield have Regent III’s with Regent V grilles?
Eric Bawden
07/05/12 – 09:13
Chris Y mentions the preserved AEC Regent V from Leeds 916 3916UB This bus is non standard compared to the others of the batch as it was given an Atlantean front dome following an argument with a crane in the late sixties
Chris Hough
07/05/12 – 10:53
Another exposed radiator Regent V with the Orion body is seen here in Oxford, wearing the resplendent livery of City of Oxford Motor Services. The lowbridge version of the Orion, as worn by MD3RV304, COMS No.193, 193 BFC, always looked less gawky to my eye than the highbridge variant. The best looking Orion bodies ever built were surely those supplied to Aldershot and District in 1964/65 on Dennis Loline III chassis, where the visual balance was greatly improved by the low level of the lower saloon window line, and then enhanced further by the excellent A&D livery.
Roger Cox
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/01/14 – 07:44
It’s the first time I have been on your site and it has brough back some terrific memories. In the 60s and 70s I worked for Doncaster corporation transport department as a conductor and later a driver.The A.E.C. in your picture is coming of the bus stand on the North Bridge on its way to Bentley, in 1968 I was conductor on one of the Bentley service buses, it was in the summer, a very hot day and we were stood in traffic waiting to get on to the stand, along side us was a cattle truck, my driver was sat with the door slid wide open, a cow on the truck took short and peed on my mate, the door was jammed open, and poor old Jock couldn’t shut it. He was drownded in cow pee, the passengers on the bus burst out laughing and the bus shook from side to side. when we got onto the stand the cab floor had about 6 inches of cow pee in it, poor Jock was soaked to the skin. This is a true story the picture of the AEC brought it flooding back! the driver should be in the Guiness Book Of Records – the only man to be peed on by a cow while driving a bus! thanks for the memories.
Rog Haworth
13/01/14 – 08:36
Chris H, after death and taxes the next thing you can be sure of in this life is of being immediately proved wrong if you post on this forum! Mention has already been made of exposed-radiator Regent Vs with Nottingham and Rhondda – there were actually 27 Rhondda examples, 298/9, 400-24. I can add East Yorkshire – two distinct batches in the series 634-50 (VKH 34-50). There are two pages on this very forum devoted to these vehicles! www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=8 & www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=937 One exposed radiator Regent V which is often overlooked is this one of Bedwas & Machen. The photo comes from the collection of a regular contributor to this site, see above! I hope he doesn’t mind my linking to it. www.sct61.org.uk/bj9
David Call
15/01/14 – 05:55
In response to Eric B’s question re Regent IIIs with Regent V-style grilles, here’s one with a Regent V-style grille, but obviously not a Regent V-style bonnet. The chassis, a Regent III prototype, remained with AEC as a test chassis for several years, before being sold to Liss & District who had it bodied by Roe as seen here. Later recorded with Creamline of Bordon (an associated concern), and later still with Super of Upminster, it is thought to be depicted here with Creamline. The Regent III on the left is almost as interesting – it’s production chassis (type 9612A) remained with AEC for almost as long as that of 150AOU, before being bodied, again by Roe, for Liss & District, later passing to Creamline. Could these have been the only Regent IIIs to feature forward entrances from initial bodying? www.flickr.com/photos/
David Call
15/01/14 – 08:57
Yes, but don’t forget the (roughly) 80 Regent IIIs delivered to Sheffield in 1955/56 with Roe and Weymann bodies. They all had Regent V fronts. Sheffield wanted heavyweights and only the lightweight Regent V was available initially. They therefore took delivery of 9613S chassis with Regent V fronts.
Leeds City Transport 1966 AEC Regent V Roe H39/31R
Perhaps this snippet about Leeds City Transports AEC Regent V fleet number 980 which has been preserved and is stored at the Keighley Bus Museum may be of interest. 980 spent most, if not all of its service life at the Headingley depot along with the remainder of the batch 974 – 983. I don’t know the technicalities but it was fitted with some kind of modified exhaust system which gave a totally different tone to the norm, especially when pulling hard. As it passed its home depot on the routes northwards out of Leeds it was instantly recognisable by the unique sound alone. The tone was uncannily like that made by a water craft when the exhaust dips below the surface and accordingly amongst enthusiast staff 980 enjoyed the nickname “The motor boat”. Very happy days indeed.
Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
The exhaust sounds like an example of the famous AEC “straight through” exhaust – common on Regent IIIs, less common but not unknown on Regent Vs.
My passions are AECs and bodywork by Burlingham, Roe and Weymann. What a fine photograph of a beautiful bus. I am actually very concerned about the future of a similar bus ex Sheffield B fleet number 1330 registration number 6330 WJ which has been in the limbo of being half restored at Sheffield, South Yorkshire. An almost identical 2D3RA of 1960 vintage.
David Oldfield
I know the Mark IIIs wonderful barking “straight through” sound that you mean – this magnificent recital was fitted to most if not all of the Leeds City Transport “PUA” registration batch, of which 674 was undoubtedly the finest as it bellowed its way through the City Centre usually on services 42/66 from Harehills to Old Farnley/Leysholme Estate.
However the “motor boat” sound produced uniquely by 980 was quite different and was somewhat muffled and refined, perhaps best described as gentle “under water” bubbling. What priceless memories we are lucky to enjoy.
Chris Youhill
Work is well underway on the above vehicle…this site will be kept informed of developments in due course.
Mick Holian
Leeds City Transport always seemed to have a well turned out fleet of interesting vehicles, but seeing and hearing one of their many Regent Vs was to many of us the icing on the cake. Whether it was a handsome Roe-bodied example, or one of the plainer (but slightly more imposing?) MCW ones with exposed radiators, it didn’t matter. To the ear they were just the same – gorgeous! Perhaps best summed up as the mechanical sound effects of a Routemaster, coupled to the exhaust system of a decent sports car?! They were once a common sound booming their way up The Headrow past Lewis’s. If you were lucky enough, sometimes a skilled driver with a tuned ear would ‘hold’ a bus on its exhaust bark for quite a distance up the gentle incline. Bliss!….and a damned sight better than todays droning Volvo B7TLs!
Brendan Smith
Mention of the PUA registered 1952 AEC Regent IIIs brings to mind the Roe advert which adorned Leeds timetables for many years 669 was used until the nineteen sixties when it was replaced by a dual doored AEC Reliance in 1967 this was replaced by 131 the first of Leeds 33 foot Fleetlines the last Leeds bus to appear was a 1968 Daimler Fleetline with Roe dual door body. A small batch of these AECs carried very shapely Weymann bodywork.
Chris Hough
The six handsome Weymann “PUAs” were numbered 649 – 655 and they were a pleasure to behold from outside, and when on board you could enjoy some of the last Leeds buses to have the “warm” light beige window surrounds – I always thought that the subsequent silver ones were harsh and a retrograde step.
Chris Youhill
I have quite a collection of LCT photos click here to view. Some of them should bring back an odd memory or two!
David Beilby
25/09/11 – 07:18
Some of these AEC’s had a short spell with Tyne and Wear PTE (formerly Newcastle Transport) I believe they had been let down with a delivery of new vehicles and the AEC’s were brought in as a stop gap. They were used on the 18/19 Walker Circle route and were still in their LCT livery, but the panel around the radiator grill had been painted yellow.
Ronnie Hoye
25/09/11 – 09:00
I think that the L.C.T. buses that went to Tyne and Wear initially went to OK Motor Services but were not used by them. Tyne and Wear also painted the first panel on either side in their yellow livery.
Philip Carlton
25/09/11 – 09:03
They did look interesting in Newcastle didn’t they ?? The one in this picture though, 980, travelled even further north and served with A1 Services of Ardrossan in another fine green livery before being “repatriated” and is now approaching restoration to perfection standards at Keighley Bus Museum.
Chris Youhill
25/09/11 – 15:20
Further to my comments about LCT Buses in Newcastle, ironically, not long before the arrival of the LCT buses, Newcastle had decommissioned their own Park Royal bodied Mk V AEC’s, some were low bridge variants for the No 5 Ponteland/Darras Hall route, I also seem to remember some other foreigners from Edinburgh and Leicester were in Newcastle at the same time.
Ronnie Hoye
26/09/11 – 15:06
The PTE in Newcastle suffered a severe vehicle shortage and purchased a small number of ex Leeds AEC Regents and at least one Roe bodied PD3/5 all had PTE Yellow applied to their bonnets In addition the PTE loaned buses from Plymouth (MCW bodied Atlanteans) Lothian (Alexander bodied PD2s) Bournemouth (Atlanteans with Newcastle style MCW bodywork) Leicester (PD3s with East Lancs bodywork0 and Southend (Fleetlines with NCME bodywork)
Chris Hough
29/01/12 – 17:48
Yep about half a dozen Regent V”s and the PD3/5 along with all the other exotic birds were allocated to Byker depot and we had a trip out to photograph them. To add to the interest the restored Newcastle Leyland PD2 (in blue livery) and some ex Standerwick Bristol VRLL”s for the ferry services were also on shed. Newcastle was a very interesting place at that time. I am told that the Regents subsequently went to the magnificent OK motor services but not sure if they were ever used (possibly cannibalised for parts?)
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Roe H39/30RD
This was part of another big order that Sheffield placed with AEC in this case for a total of 71 Regent V 2D3RA model, all delivered in 1960. 1331 was part of the B fleet contingent of 25 buses all of which had this style of Roe bodywork whilst the A fleet received vehicles bodied by Weymann and Alexander. Items to note in comparison with Roe bodied Leyland PD3 fleet number 462 delivered the year previously is the reduction in the number of sliding windows by two in each side of each deck but the inclusion of vents in the front top deck windows plus of course the addition of platform doors. These were manually operated by the conductor and would no doubt be appreciated on some of the longer services such as the 72 to Castleton in the Peak District. I have a watercolour painting done for me many years ago by a good friend of one of this batch operating on service 72 between Bamford and Hathersage. Comparing this bus with Roe bodied Regent III fleet number 1265, the change of livery to include a cream painted radiator surround gives the bus a lighter appearance whilst in this case the legal owner is Sheffield Transport Department. Although many of this batch were withdrawn in 1972 (maybe at the expiry of their second CoF – 7 years initially plus 5 years recertification), my PSV Circle fleet list shows this bus as still in service in October 1973. This is another Coachbuilders official photograph taken at the Roe premises in Crossgates, Leeds.
Here we have it, Ian. My absolute favourites from my Sheffield childhood. Although, for the most part, built at the end of 1959, only about half were delivered on 1 January 1960, the rest were delivered on 1 April with the residue of Weymann and Alexander buses. There was a minor difference in that one sub set had an extra slider (on each side) just behind the bulk-head inside. I think these were what I called the Leadmill set – found on the 12, 22 and 59. The East Bank set were delivered in April and were put to work on the 38. It leads me to surmise that 1331 was an April, East Bank, bus. [Often, lower fleet numbers seemed to arrive before higher ones.] I’m still hoping that 1330, at Aldwarke, will eventually be rebuilt and take to the road.
David Oldfield
05/05/11 – 07:05
A classic photograph, with the fluorescent lights fully on in what was apparently the Roe drawing office in the background, where these wonderful bus bodies were designed and detailed! 1331 as it happens was the last Roe bodied Regent V in service at Sheffield, being finally withdrawn on 13 May, 1976. The other three of the batch which accompanied 1331 into that last year of back loader operation were 1332, 1336 and 1339, the three of them coming off the previous month. For the record, 1331 completed a full last day in service on that May day, shuttling back and forth between Sheffield Lane Top and Bradway on the 76; a fine testament to a superb vehicle.
Dave Careless
05/05/11 – 12:16
Bradway (75)? or Lowedges Road (76)?
David Oldfield
06/05/11 – 06:59
To all, interest in the Sheffield Transport/SJOC matters are certainly gaining momentum! The comments on the later intake of Leyland PD2/20 and 30, followed by the longer PD3/1 vehicles is a very interesting point. Undoubtedly, the problem of the Leyland change in the gearbox specification was a hard blow, particularly with respect to the newly trained, ex tram drivers. Possibly Leyland thought that Sheffield would turn to the Pneumocyclic option. The 40 PD2/20 Roe bodied batch in 1956 were taken into the A fleet, featuring the latest constant mesh/synchromesh gearbox. They were mainly replacement buses and would be driven by experienced drivers. Conversely, as time went by, the former tram men gained more driving experience and were able to master the buses lacking synchromesh on 2nd gear. Very definitely the 30ft long PD3/1/Roe buses, much heavier than the PD2 versions,were a problem to many skilled drivers,on steeply graded routes. To this end, the Chief Driving Instructor Charles Deamer devised a method of “Snatch changing” (a brutal change from 1st to 2nd gear) when starting on steep hills and this method was also used on the PD2’s. However, the driving staff preferred the easier life when in control of the AEC Regent Mark 111 and Mark V versions of 27ft and 30ft buses. Manager C.T.Humpidge re-introduced fluid transmission/Monocontrol to Sheffield A,B,& C fleets in 1964/5 and no further synchromesh buses entered service.
Keith Beeden
06/05/11 – 07:19
Well David, it was a long time ago! Perhaps it did a stint on both, but all I can say is that it was out all day, didn’t break down, and definitely wasn’t on the 33 from Lane Top to Hemsworth!! 1331 had a spell at Bramall Lane garage early in its career, as it shows up there in the allocation list dated 11th January, 1963, (with eight of its sisters, 1325-1330, 1332 and 1349) but that garage closed later that year, so presumably was an East Bank bus after that for most if not all of its working life. Fascinating hobby this, isn’t it!
Dave Careless
06/05/11 – 15:36
Certainly is and its good to know there are other Sheffield expert/enthusiasts out there. We may be outnumbered by the West Yorkshire lot and we can’t post as long as East Yorkshire but we will fly the flag for the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire (!!!).
David Oldfield
07/05/11 – 06:06
At PMT all the Leyland Titans, both PD2 and PD3 had the Leyland GB83 constant mesh second gearboxes. The driving school there taught the snatch change method of getting from 1st to 2nd on a hill start. Although not in the same league as Sheffield, the Potteries area did have a number of steep hills to negotiate. Once you got the hang of it, the snatch change was quite easy. The gear lever travel on the GB83 was much shorter than on the synchromesh second unit (think that was a GB74) which made the buses so fitted that much easier to drive. I queried the non use of synchro 2nd gearboxes at PMT and was told that the constant mesh 2nd gearbox had a generally longer service life between repairs. Even the Matador recovery vehicle had acquired a Leyland 0.600 engine and a GB83 gearbox!
Ian Wild
09/05/11 – 08:16
The Sheffield thread is fascinating. My brother-in-law-to-be was doing a practical stint at Laycock’s in 1960, so I went up to join him for a couple of days and we went merrily tram-riding only months before closure. My very favourites were the 1937 batch, but they were all very stylish, so it’s fitting that the 1959-60 Regents (which I assume were the tram-replacement batches) were so handsome. Even the Bridgemaster (not usually a favourite of mine) is well-proportioned—with the bonus of a prodigious seating capacity. Keith Beeden’s point about hardened gearwheels is an eye-opener: I knew that many variables affected the music of the same gearbox in different vehicle types, but I never realised that mere (!?) metallurgy could play such a part. But it makes sense: cardboard gearwheels wouldn’t sing. Could the hardened teeth that Keith mentions have been used in the NTG…-reg 1954 Rhondda Regent IIIs? They certainly had a distinctive whine. I’ve never driven a PD2 (except for an RTW) so I don’t know whether a clutch stop was fitted or not, but it certainly should have been! A clutch-stop would save wear on the cones when engaging 1st or 2nd from neutral, but I guess the builders judged that synchromesh had made that wonderful, simple device redundant.
Ian Thompson
09/05/11 – 08:19
A driver at Manchester once told me that the problem with the snatch change from first to second on the half-synchro PD2s was that every bus was different. Some required more skill than others, and some would not accept a snatch change no matter what. He found it more reliable to move the lever out of first, across the gate and gently forward, slowing the clutch down on third gear synchromesh, and then snick it quickly back into second.
Peter Williamson
10/05/11 – 07:13
A very ingenious solution, Peter!
Chris Hebbron
10/05/11 – 07:15
Ian, I agree with you about the Sheffield Domed trams (1936 – 1939 + war-time rebuilds). The majority of the tram replacement buses were 27′ Regents and Titans and I think, strictly, the only 30′ Regent V tram replacement buses were the Weymann and Alexander examples (A fleet). The Roe were B fleet – and there were no B fleet trams! I also agree with you about the Bridgemaster which looked good in Sheffield colours and with the traditional back end. It was the front loader which looked all wrong. Was never aware that the Bridgemasters caused any problems with reliability. That being the case, what was really the problem with it? Interesting to think of a comment I read that AEC pondered the possibility of replacing the Regent V AND the Bridgemaster with the Renown. Again, never heard of reliability problems with them either. …..unless anyone out there knows otherwise.
David Oldfield
12/05/11 – 9:39
Thanks for the clarification, David. I’ve never understood the Sheffield A-fleet/B-fleet distinction though, so perhaps you could outline that for me as well.
Ian Thompson
A Fleet: wholly owned by Sheffield Corporation for routes entirely within the City bounds, including those which replaced tram routes.
B Fleet: owned jointly by Sheffield Corporation and the Railway Companies or Boards. [Sheffield expanded its borders progressively from about 1920 until 1974. B fleet routes included some on the outer edge of the City which had previously been in Derbyshire or the West Riding and some which went over the borders.]
C Fleet: owned entirely by the Railway Companies or Boards. These routes included some Derbyshire routes but also all the long routes, including Manchesters and Retford/Gainsboroughs. For most, although not all, of its existence, C Fleet buses shared the same livery and generally similar types to the A (and B) Fleet. Management of all three fleets and routes was common, types of vehicle were similar (although platform doors and different seats may differentiate) and, of course, coaches would be B and C Fleet. The JOC (Joint Omnibus Committee) was set up in 1927 principally with the LMS and LNER Railways. With Nationalisation in 1948 these became Midland and Eastern Regions. The formation of NBC in 1969 caused the disbandment of the JOC – which had in effect performed as a regional bus company such as, and in the territory of, Yorkshire Traction and North Western. Many C Fleet buses were then, at this time, dispersed among NBC subsidiaries, notably Yorkshire Woolen. JOCs seemed to be a very Yorkshire thing – Halifax, Todmorden, Huddersfield – although Railways always had a stake in BET and Tilling companies as well prior to NBC formation. Although the Corporation retained most Derbyshire work, the remaining Manchester route (48) became a North Western operation and many of the others became joint with operators with whom they had previously work anyway.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/01/12 – 16:34
A somewhat belated response to the comment on snatch gear changes with Leyland PD2’s and PD3’s. I learned to drive in a PD1 in 1962 and was taught the technique at that time, as this was with Eastbourne Corporation there being no serious hills to contend with I can’t remember having to use it. However I joined Southdown in 1969 at Eastbourne and soon had cause to brush up the trick especially on the 12 route to Brighton which also included trips to estates at West Dene and Tongdean on the outskirts of Brighton which were very hilly (one reason the PD3/5’s went west). Probably the worst stop was at Downs Golf club 2/3rd’s of the way up the hill out of Eastbourne, not something you looked forward to with a good load of holidaymakers in the summer. I’ve never heard of the trick told to Peter Williamson, of using the synchro on 3rd gear to slow the gearbox when changing 1st to 2nd but I did use the same method but using 4th to make selecting 2nd gear when stationary much easier and quieter otherwise 2nd would grate noisily, I read this somewhere but can’t remember where. The same technique worked equally well when used with the direct air operated Pneumocyclic box as it cut out the jolt when engaging 2nd when stationary.
