Tag: Roe

Hebble – AEC Regent III – AJX 245 – 30




Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Hebble Motor Services
1948
AEC Regent III 9612E
Roe L27/26R

I recently came across this photograph. I know very little about its history with Hebble, but it is familiar to me – after sale by Hebble, this and an identical vehicle AJX 281 were both acquired by an operator very local to me at the time, Makemson of Bulwell, Nottingham.
They arrived in January 1961, and ran for a while as acquired; the Makemson livery was dark red and cream, so the Hebble colours fitted in well. They replaced an ex Ribble Leyland bodied TD7, RN 8990 and
CRR 92, a 1936 AEC Regent new to West Bridgford UDC. Neither of the ex Hebble Regents lasted long with Makemson, both were withdrawn in the second half of 1962, and were sold for scrap to a local dealer/showman.
Hopefully the Yorkshire based correspondents will know its earlier history, and the location of the photograph.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell

25/03/12 – 11:22

This photo just got me in the nostalgia department Bob!
One of Hebble`s Regent 111s, in Chester Street Bus Station, Bradford, probably some time after 1956.
It is the starting point (or was!) of the 19 service from Bradford to Bingley, via Allerton, Wilsden and Harden, a service I rode on regularly.
The route was regularly served by the Weymann bodied Regal 11s of 1946, until their withdrawal c.1956.
The 19 service followed BCPT Trolleybus 31 route as far as Allerton, and provided an alternative for us trolleybus enthusiasts to sample, as did the West Yorkshire route to Denholm and Keighley, which followed a similar route out of the City as far as Four Lane Ends, and thence with the 7 trolleys to Thornton and beyond.
Many a time have I ridden on this bus and her sisters when visiting a well known hostelry at Wilsden, known a ” t`Ling Bob”.

John Whitaker

25/03/12 – 12:05

Nostalgia here too John – for I used to greatly admire these lovely vehicles as they occupied the stand in King Street, Leeds next to our Samuel Ledgard terminus for Horsforth, Guiseley and Ilkley. The Hebble vehicles left at 20 and 50 minutes past the hour on services 15 and 28 to Rochdale or Burnley. Can anyone today imagine the wonderful scene in King Street each weekday between 1715 and 1730 – passengers then were plentiful. Two Hebble buses (one duplicate) left at 1720, leaving room on the stand for no less than four Samuel Ledgard machines for the 1730 to Ilkley thus – 1727 to Rawdon, 1728 to Guiseley, 1729 to Ilkley, 1730 to Ilkley. Those were the days and no mistake !!

Chris Youhill

26/03/12 – 07:48

I imagine Chris that the current 508 route is the “fag end” of Hebble’s 15 and 28 services. The 508 takes over an hour to get to Halifax; do you have any old timetables which might show how long the 15 and 28 took to get to their destinations in Lancashire? And did the Burnley route go over the top via Heptonstall and the Sportsman Inn or did it go via Todmorden and Cornholme?

Dave Towers

26/03/12 – 11:02

From my June 1965 Hebble Timetable.

Route 15 left Leeds 17:20 and via Halifax 18:18 – Heptonstall Slack 18:56 – Sportsman Inn 19:15 and arriving Burley at 19:38 – 2hrs 18min later.

Route 18 Left Leeds 17:50 and via Halifax 18:45 – Ripponden 19:03 and arriving Rochdale at 19:41 – 1hr 51min later.

Peter

26/03/12 – 13:15

Yes Dave, the 508 which was instituted by the PTE, was indeed the Halifax – Leeds section (or fag end) of the Hebble services. I say “was” because in recent times service revisions appear to be endless, and the 508 has been re-routed in Leeds away from the City end of the A647 Armley Road. It now uses the A65 as far as Kirkstall and then goes via the old Leeds and Bradford Road and Farsley before rejoining the A647 at Stanningley, then as before.
Thanks to Peter for the Hebble 15/28 details which I did not know – I do though just recall from King Street days that one of the displays showed intermediate points as “Dudley Hill, Halifax, Littleborough – I think !!

Chris Youhill

26/03/12 – 16:58

Thanks for the interesting replies, Peter and Chris. The 508 was re-routed when the 15 Bradford to Farsley service was withdrawn a couple of years back. It provided an extra service to Farsley (though not from Bradford centre) and the 72 frequency was increased to compensate for less buses down the A 647.
A 508 leaving Leeds now at 17:35 is given 1hr 29 mins to reach Halifax. A 592 leaving Halifax is given 1hr 25 minutes to reach Burnley, so add them together and you’re just short of 3 hours – such is progress! I suppose back in 1965, whilst the vehicle would be slower, there wouldn’t be as much traffic around and if double deckers were used, the service would be crew operated. It’s not a direct comparison though as the routes don’t totally match each other.

Dave

27/03/12 – 07:19

I travelled regularly on the Burnley/Rochdale to Halifax sections of these routes back in 1965-70 and don’t remember seeing double-deckers in use on them anywhere west of Hebden Bridge. Usually it was Weymann Hermes/BET style saloons, although on one occasion I managed to talk myself on board a Hebble Bellhouse Hartwell Landmaster serving as a duplicate – in theory only for passengers connecting to Yelloway’s overnight departure to Torquay. The Landmaster then went “on hire” to Yelloway. Am I right in thinking that one of these wonderful coaches survives?

Neville Mercer

27/03/12 – 07:19

This photo and the comments bring back happy memories from my childhood. One of the joys of travelling by Hebble on the 15 or 28 from Leeds was the (usually) non-stop thrash to Stanningley Bottom. This was the result of the then very common revenue protection arrangements enforced by Leeds City Transport within their boundaries.
To a twelve year-old lad, the pleasure and novelty of overtaking LCT buses on Armley and Stanningley Roads was always appreciated and a fitting end to a day’s train spotting, even though Hebble’s first permitted stop was well beyond our usual destination. In keeping with our childish mentality were our giggles when being asked by what was probably the first Asian conductor I’d encountered, “Are you sure you want this bus – the first stop is Stanningley Bottoms!”.

Paul Haywood

27/03/12 – 07:21

These services have an interesting history. Road service licensing meant that, as Todmorden already had services in the valley, Hebble had to be content with getting to Burnley through Heptonstall. This was a route not suitable for double-deckers and in some winters not suitable for buses at all. They provided an hourly service though for the sheep to watch – there was little in the way of traffic on this section.
The Rochdale service had a variety of operators including the LMS Railway from Rochdale to Leeds. That was hourly, again with single-deckers, in this case due to low bridge in Littleborough, although the Rochdale to Halifax section was half-hourly on Saturdays. It also included a through journey to Llandudno on summer Saturdays, just slightly west of Rochdale.
When Calderdale JOC was formed Halifax, Todmorden and Hebble became all part of the same organisation and a rationalisation of services ensued. The service to Burnley via Heptonstall became two journeys on a Saturday and through traffic was dealt with by linking the Halifax to Hebden Bridge and Todmorden to Burnley services, supplemented with an express Leeds-Burnley service, the 8. The express service was not successful and was truncated to a Leeds to Halifax service, the 8 which became the 508 under the PTE numbering scheme. Up until 1976/7 it was worked exclusively from Halifax but then operation was shared with Leeds, just in time to allow some of the last surviving buses in Leeds livery to work it – I have a picture of Jumbo 491 in Halifax on it.
The Rochdale service became really exciting in Halifax ownership. The existing 28 ran every two hours and alternated with a new 27, which turned off at Triangle and passed through Soyland and Mill Bank before rejoining the 28 near Baitings reservoir. The 27 was a lovely run along hilly country lanes but made exciting by the fact that for all the detour, it didn’t have any more running time. The Leopards used on it gave a very spirited performance. I used to love riding on it and more than once had Tony Blackman at the wheel, which was even better.
After deregulation the Rochdale services were operated by Yelloway and saw such vehicles as Plaxton-bodied Reliance coaches and National 2s.
I used to use the 508 when I was at Leeds University to get back from Halifax (and beyond) after a pub crawl as you could get back later from Halifax than most other places.

David Beilby

27/03/12 – 15:50

David, your comment reminds me of the time when Leeds began to operate the 508 service out of Bramley depot. Its difficult now to imagine how very “parochial” the Leeds operation in general was in those days – even those drivers aware of the long distance journey to Bradford were looked on by the rest as brave explorers. When the Halifax participation began only a limited number of drivers were familiarised and they became celebrities almost overnight. I was once “showing up” (spare) in Leeds Bus station with an AEC Swift and a conductor when a harassed inspector enquired of the several crews if anyone knew the way to Bradford as there was a serious hiatus in the frequent service – I volunteered immediately with glee, and was looked on by the others as a “double agent” who’d let the side down and broken up the card school. I enjoyed the trip immensely, full load all the way there and back, and managed to handle all the usual passenger jibes “Thought you’d gone on strike” etc – the young conductor was not amused at all – no stamina some of them you know !!

Chris Youhill

27/03/12 – 15:51

I once caught the Rochdale – Leeds service in Calderdale days. The steed was a Weymann bodied Leopard which gave a good account of itself .However it was a chilly spring evening and the rubber edging on the door was somewhat frayed and the ensuing draft assumed Antarctic proportions on the tops . Like many Calderdale buses the Leopard was fitted with the unusual and eccentric method of change giving whereby the coins rattled down a chute to the right of the passenger The journey cost me 40p at the time what a bargain! Incidentally First ran a short lived direct peak hour Leeds – Halifax direct service numbered X8 which has now ceased.
The Hebble service from Bradford via Queensbury to Halifax was another epic with astounding views into the Calder Valley as you headed into Halifax

Chris Hough

28/03/12 – 08:44

I’ve been wondering exactly the same as Neville Mercer about the Hebble Royal Tiger/Bellhouse Hartwell. It was ECP 500 and apparently someone made an appeal to Dewsbury Bus Museum to see if it could be saved but that was well over a year ago and as nothing has been heard since, I fear it has been lost. A very sad event if so because I thought they were wonderful machines, they exuded fabulous Fifties flamboyance!

Chris Barker

28/03/12 – 08:44

When Calderdale took over the Leeds services they tended to use dual purpose saloons interspersed with bus Leopards and front entrance Titans and Regent V. However the depot must have been short of motive power one afternoon as the 4PM departure from Leeds to Burnley was an ex Todmorden all Leyland PD2/12! Despite its age around 20 it stormed up Stanningly road leaving LCT vehicles trailing in its wake! It was still carrying Todmorden livery which must have confused passengers no end

Chris Hough

28/03/12 – 11:32

There is a good shot of ECP 500 in Malcolm Keeley’s Buses in Camera ‘Mercian and Welsh’

Roger Broughton

28/03/12 – 11:33

I agree with Chris Barker that it would be a tragedy if the Landmaster has been scrapped. These were never that common – the only other one I ever managed to ride on was an AEC Regal IV belonging to Meredith & Jesson of Cefn Mawr. M&J frequently used their example on their stage service to Wrexham! I fear that if the Hebble machine has indeed gone, then the glorious BH Landmaster is now extinct. Where on Earth are people’s priorities when there are hundreds of Routemasters still in preservation? Thank heaven for far-sighted preservationists such as Roger Burdett and the Ementons who bring a bit of welcome variety to the preservation scene.

Neville Mercer

28/03/12 – 11:37

Gentlemen – thank you for filling in the information on this Regent’s Hebble days, I’m pleased you found the photo of interest.

One question though – why is the bus parked with its offside nearest the platform/bay/stand – was it normal practice, or a one off?

Also there has been mention of the Hebble Royal Tiger ECP 500, below are a couple of shots as it was when I photographed it in Lancashire in August 2008.

Bob Gell

Ex Hebble ECP500
Ex Hebble ECP500 (3)

28/03/12 – 18:25

Chester Street bus station in Bradford was basically two rudimentary laybys with Chester Street going through the middle West Yorkshire used the layby opposite the Hebble stands which was also home to Yorkshire Woollen and Yorkshire Traction services. As well as the aforementioned laybys the actual street was also utilised. The whole set up being very spartan with little in the way of passenger facilities

Chris Hough

28/03/12 – 18:29

…..and there was also the Sheffield United Tours pair of 1955 Reliances. They seemed to be an extra order and the bodies were apparently cancelled by Blue Cars and originally intended for Leyland chassis. Blue Cars already had examples.

David Oldfield

28/03/12 – 18:30

Apparently the Landmaster was due to be scrapped, but at the eleventh hour it was reprieved when Ensign agreed to take it on. Having seen some of the restoration jobs they have undertaken, this was a great relief, but I am told that even they decided that it was beyond redemption, and that it may well have been scrapped by now. I hope not, as it would be a tragic loss.

John Stringer

28/03/12 – 18:31

I have a feeling that I read somewhere, not so long ago, that Ensign had been approached to save ECP500, but had declined because of its stripped out condition and its frailty, making it too tricky to tow.

Chris Hebbron

28/03/12 – 18:38

To answer Bob Gell’s latest question ” Chester Street Bus Station (but not the through road down the middle) operated at this time as “one way” for buses.
Thus they all entered via Little Horton lane and exited via either Great Horton Road or (in the case of buses heading back up Little Horton Lane – The Sheffield 66 joint service and certain Hebble Routes) via a loop on Wilton Street past the morgue and thence back up Little Horton Lane.
The non West Yorkshire side had two stands ” on the side pictured there were the Hebble Stands for the 7 & 17 Halifax services, the two Hipperholme (26) routes (where AJX 245 appears to be heading as far as I can tell from the blind), and the Bingley 19 service via Wilsden. Additionally there was the joint Yorkshire Woollen and North Western X12 Manchester service. Any remaining space nearer Little Horton Lane was taken up with spare West Yorkshire vehicles between turns. Interestingly these were parked against the traffic flow ” presumably so that they could regain the West Yorkshire half facing in the right direction ready for their next run. Thus all these service buses loaded on the live bus carriageway.
On the other side of this half there were stands for the Sheffield 66, (joint Sheffield’C’ Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woollen.) and also the Samuel Ledgard Leeds via Pudsey Routes. These loaded from the kerb.
On the West Yorkshire half, all routes with the exception of the 67 Keighley/Skipton loaded in the middle of the bus carriageway as they were parked “herringbone” either side of the Green Hut. All passengers for these routes had to cross the bus carriageway to join their buses.
All in all the place was somewhat hazardous for passengers to say the least. I think things were remodelled sometime in the late 60’s. Returning to AJX 245 it was bound for Hipperholme Crossroads via Wibsey. There were two routes 26 and 26a, one branching off just after Stone Chair at Shelf to run through Coley village with other keeping to the main road through Lumbrook. There was a short working for a time to the edge of the then new Bradford Council Buttershaw Estate which displayed Boltby Lane ” running I recall at peak hours only. This was discontinued when Bradford Corporation built a trolleybus extension into the heart of the Estate. One other interesting bit of information is that there was a through route to Halifax (29) that ran on this route from Bradford as far as Shelf thence to Halifax ” for some reason on Saturdays only. It was termed the “Wibsey Flyer” ” its route was marginally shorter than the main routes through Queensbury or Odsal/Shelf and Hebble drivers always liked a challenge.
And finally I used to visit my Sister for lunch once a week ” she lived in Allerton on the Hebble Route 19 from Bingley. I always used to catch the Hebble back into Bradford, I reckon it could shave at least 5 minutes off the 31 trolleybus ” rarely stopping at all after the Chapel Lane stop in Allerton. As I said the Hebble drivers liked a challenge !

Farmer G

29/03/12 – 08:04

The Samuel Ledgard (formerly B & B TOURS) buses for Harrogate also departed from the “West Yorkshire” side of Chester Street Bus Station. Their route was identical to the WYRCC 53 service except that “the blues” deviated from the main road at the Hare and Hounds and additionally served the full length of Menston Village.

Chris Youhill

29/03/12 – 08:06

What a shame to think that ECP 500 has survived so long only to be lost so recently. Whilst in a poor state it doesn’t look so dreadful compared to some restorations. I managed to find a photograph of it taken in 1976 and better times when it appears to be in fine condition.
Here… //s880.photobucket.com/ 

Richard Leaman

29/03/12 – 08:07

To sort of illustrate Chris’ memory on this thread (which seems to be unravelling into about three different themes) the attached picture shows the bus he was referring to, which was Calderdale 357. This one lasted quite a while in Todmorden livery and I’m pretty sure was the last to carry it by some margin.


This picture is taken near Cliviger, between Todmorden and Burnley, a location much better known to railway enthusiasts as Copy Pit and a bit of a shrine in the very last days of steam.
What it shows is a Halifax PD2 on the 8 from Burnley to Leeds, with 357 behind on what I recall as a duplicate. Behind that is a Ribble Leopard on an express service to Manchester.

David Beilby

29/03/12 – 17:50

I love your comments, Farmer G, about the speed of the Hebble 19 service! They were flyers alright, especially before the route was double decked. Swirls of dust and dead leaves in their wake!
West Yorkshire, down Thornton Road were just as exciting sometimes, even with 5LWs, but one of the reasons was the longer spacings of bus stops, and the penny surcharge in the City boundary, which got them to Town quicker, but which most thrifty Bradfordians did not experience because of said surcharge.
Mind you, the old “Regen” trolleys could move a bit too! Memories of hurtling down Thornton Road, from Spring Head to Bell Dean come to mind. So much for “silent trolleybuses”! They made more noise than a Hebble and a WY combined!
Happy Days!

John Whitaker

30/03/12 – 07:08

What a superb photo David B! When was it taken, early PTE days perhaps?

Dave Towers

30/03/12 – 08:52

Sorry – I forgot to add a date! It was on 17th June 1972.

David Beilby

17/09/12 – 06:58

I well remember the Hebble service over the tops to Halifax in the 1960s–used to use it on Saturdays to call at the Sportsman for a few jars–great service–do any buses go over the tops these days? Hard for me to check as I left to live in France when I retired.

John Oakes

17/05/13 – 09:09

I was a parcels delivery driver for rail express in the early 1970s I noticed ECP 500 in the yard at Talbot House school in Glossop whilst delivering there. I wrote to the H C V C in the hope that someone could rescue her 40 years on I have just found out that John S Hinchliffe purchased her from the school. Some pictures I have seen show that she scrubbed up well how sad that more recent pictures tell a different story.it would appear that she did not survive

John Kelly

05/04/14 – 07:12

I lived in Northowram and when the Bradford service was routed via Stone Chair and Landemere under Calderdale, we often had to give directions to drivers who previously stopped at the Northowram boundary or at least, only knew the main road between Bradford and Halifax. They would fly down the hill from Stone Chair only to find around a slight bend at the bottom that there were passengers standing in the road (no pavement). The drivers were none too happy in trying to pull up a Fleetline in short order!

John Turnbull

06/04/14 – 08:24

John, I was once involved in a collision on the ‘slight bend’ you mention, which was towards the bottom of Score Hill and just above Landemere Syke.
If they were on time, opposing buses were due to pass one another in Score Hill, so could easily meet on the bend. There was a stone barn belonging to the adjacent farm on downhill side, right on the bend, severely restricting visibility, so one quickly learned to scan the view ahead over the top of the farm from much further back – whilst travelling along Northowram Green (outbound) or from the top of Score Hill (inbound). Though it was not an official instruction, the regular drivers’ convention was for the inbound bus to slow right down or stop half way down the hill until the outbound one had safely negotiated the corner.
One weekday afternoon I was outbound towards Bradford in an ex-Halifax Fleetline. I did the usual scan ahead and could not see a bus descending the hill, so I proceeded and approached the bend with great caution. Unfortunately, whilst I had been passing through the blind section of the dip at Landemere Syke the inbound bus had come over the brow of the hill and was hurtling down it rather too speedily. The weather conditions were dull and drizzly, so the road surface was already wet, but the fact that the farmer from Wall Nook Farm had earlier herded his cows down the road meant that there was a lethal coating of slippery brown stuff too.
As I very slowly rounded the bend I then saw the bus – another of the same type – coming towards me and so stopped immediately. The other driver had only passed out of the driving school a few days before and must have panicked, hitting the brakes hard. It went into a lengthy skid – totally out of control – and as Fleetlines would do in such instances went into a front wheel skid on the bend. I instinctively accelerated to the left to avoid being hit head on, and the bus collided violently with my front offside then bounced off in the other direction and buried itself in the barn wall, virtually destroying it.
Strangely I felt quite calm, and was about to leap out to check if the other driver was injured – fearing the worst. I raised my arm to brush a fragment of something from my hair, and my conductor Ken got into a bit of a state and shouted at me not to move, and not to touch my head – pointing at it anxiously. I looked in the mirror and there was a very large triangular-shaped section of my offside cab window glass stuck into my hair in an upright position – like a kind of glass Mohican ! He’s assumed it must have been buried into my skull, but I just flicked it away without any red stuff gushing out, much to his relief.
Miraculously neither the other driver nor any of our passengers were injured. Police and our inspectors and engineers were soon on the scene, and the other bus had to be extracted and towed away. Our inspector – the late John Davis – having knocked out the remaining broken glass from my side windows and twisted off various bits of metal trim and the odd panel, deemed that my bus was fit to drive, and decided that the other badly shaken driver should drive it back to depot under his supervision, fearing that otherwise they would go home and never want to drive again. That would most certainly not happen nowadays, but fortunately he was right and the driver did carry on and drove for a few more years. The barn was eventually rebuilt, and ever afterwards each time I passed it I could not help being reminded of the incident, and of what might have been.

John Stringer

06/04/14 – 10:44

A very ‘interesting’ tale, in more ways then one, John. The scary thing is seeing things unfold and it was quick-witted of you to get your bus moving so quickly when trouble approached. The amazing thing is that the barn was rebuilt, so perpetuating the very danger that caused the accident!

Chris Hebbron

16/06/15 – 06:41

More on the Hebble Halifax to Burnley route. When I began drinking, the Shoulder of Mutton at Blackshaw Head was a lively place with bands on every Friday and our friends place to be for years. We used to meet in Halifax at the Bulls Head, then catch the 7-30 pm Hebble. It used to “fly” down the Calder Valley and we were usually at the pub soon after 8 pm. Going home was more difficult at the last bus was while the band was still playing as the pub stayed open very late. You had to see if you could cadge a lift off someone or leave early. (Back to Northowram) Happy days!

John Turnbull

02/08/16 – 17:30

Hebble ran several services out of Bradford. Two to Halifax No’s 7 and 17. Huddersfield 64, Bingley 19. One to Duckworth Lane. Hipperholme 2 ways – Lumbrook and Coley alternate. Saturday only 29 to Halifax via Wibsey and the Bolby flyer peak hours to Buttershaw estate. Several Yorkshire Woollen vehicles were housed in Park Rd. The X12 to Manchester ran a YWD vehicle.

Allan Wood

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

17/12/18 – 07:21

A few of my own comments. As to Hilditch having Bradford and Leeds put onto destination blinds, Bradford was on many right back to the 1950s. All the Daimler CVG6 class had Bradford on them, although never running past the Queen Victoria at the Borough Boundary. It was to be found on many other vehicles long before Hilditch took over.
When the 7 was diverted to Stone Chair and Northowram Hospital, I lived at Landemere and When Bradford began sharing the route, was called to the bus stop and asked which direction to take the bus. It was common for a while that the driver would shout back and ask passengers the way to go after leaving the main Bradford road.
For quite a long time, vehicle inspectors would board vehicles at Crossfield before allowing passengers on and do a check. One time after looking here and there, he forbade anyone to board and directed it to be parked in Gt.Albion St. (AEC Regent V-Weymann). We then had to wait for one to come down off the parking area to take over.
As all have said, that last period was appalling for Hebble. Goodness knows what the mechanics thought as people must have been pointing fingers.

John Turnbull

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Regent III – RWA 174 – 2174

Sheffield Corporation
1953
AEC Regent III 9631S
Roe H33/25R

It’s November 1967 and Sheffield B fleet 2174 is at Central Bus Station ready for an hours journey round the City on the 9 Inner Circle route which is a category A service. The Inner Circle traversed the older inner part of the City through much industry and terraced housing. There were ten of these buses in the batch which were the first genuine 9613S models to enter Sheffield service. The preceding 1952 batch were actually the 9613A version modified in 1953 to synchromesh gearbox specification. 2174 and its fellows were long associated with Leadmill Road Garage being regular performers on the Bradway group of category B services. Platform A of Central Bus Station was on Pond Street itself and the bridge to the rear of the bus gave pedestrian access to the bus station from an elevated walkway on the opposite side of the road. Although much modified, Central Bus Station still exists on the same site still with loading bays where 2174 is standing. The footbridge though has long gone.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

03/10/13 – 08:51

Lovely buses with their Roe bodywork. Shallower windows than the Pullmans of the previous year but with subtly different upper windows from the “standard” (most common) Roe bodies found on the Regent III, Regent V, PD2 and PD3 deliveries between 1955 and 1960. [The front of the upper deck was also more raked.] Only ten of these, and only nine Pullmans, but along with the subsequent Regent Vs they seemed ubiquitous in the Greenhill/Bradway area of my youth. How I remember their musical gearboxes ans raucous exhausts.

David Oldfield

03/10/13 – 08:52

You make mention of category A & B services. I’d be interested in learning what these refer to and were there any other categories?

Paul

03/10/13 – 14:37

Paul. These were explained a year or two back on another post. Yorkshire was the home of several Joint Omnibus Committees (JOCs). They combined Corporation and Railway ownership to give regional services – in the same way that BET and Tilling fleets normally did. [In those regulated days, corporation routes were restricted to the town boundary.] Sheffield, unusually, had three fleets: A fleet owned by the Corporation; the B fleet jointly owned by the Corporation and British Railways’ Board; C fleet owned by British Railways’ Board. The JOCs were set up in the ’20s (1927/8 in Sheffield) – originally with LNER and LMS railways. Sheffield was continuously expanding from 1928 to 1974, hence the “extra” fleet. A fleet (to early twentieth century town boundaries); B fleet (covering territories taken over – primarily from West Riding CC and Derbyshire CC); C fleet for long distances (including Chesterfield, Gainsborough and Manchester – as well as Peak District with towns such as Bakewell and Buxton).

David Oldfield

03/10/13 – 14:37

Paul Sheffield had three categories of service These were the A which were within the city boundary and were wholly run by the corporation The B services which were joint with British RAil and covered the outer suburbs and finally the C services which were wholly the preserve of British Rail and were long distance services to places like Leeds and Manchester.
Each group of services had a fleet to run them all run by the general manager B and C fleet buses did not carry the city coat of arms just the fleet name Sheffield The C fleet was in some ways the most interesting as due to British Rail involvement Sheffield could buy Bristol and ECW products. They never bought Bristols but did buy Leyland Leopards with ECW MW style bodies and ECW bodied Leyland Titans.
The legal lettering on the C fleet showed the owner as the British Railways Board Although British Rail had involvement in Halifax Todmorden and Huddersfield this was to a far lesser extent than the Sheffield arrangements. The agreement was wound up in the seventies

Chris Hough.

03/10/13 – 14:39

Love the way the bodywork is built flush with the offside of radiator, RT-style. I always thought they looked smarter like this.

Chris Hebbron

03/10/13 – 14:41

Those straight-through exhausts were really something; the bark that the VWE-registered ‘tin front’ Regent III’s made, climbing up Firth Park Road past the park and the boating pool, on their way to High Green on the 73, is a sound I shall never forget. Elegant to look at too, especially in the Roe style livery as new, with dark blue window surrounds and blue front end. Truly marvellous machines.

Dave Careless

03/10/13 – 14:45

The stand on platform A where the bus stands, was not the no9 stand. This was on the end of platform B, virtually 180 degrees in the opposite direction. I used to catch them on my way home from the Army Cadets in Endcliffe. The nos 8 & 9 only had Circular on the destination blind, not City, so this may have been a duplicate, parked up ready for going on another route. In 1967 it would have been old & with all the Atlanteans we had, unlikely to have been on regular daily routes. By 1967 they were mostly using single decker’s on the 8 & 9 routes, (I used to catch these to work in Broomhill each morning). Not sure when, but they had Marshall & later Alexanders, occasionally a Fanfare. I think the Totley bus (Category B) also ran from platform A, they had these kind of buses on that route during the 50s & early 60s. I do remember them having a lovely booming exhaust sound going up the hills. The stand pictured was for the 33, 34,  35 & 36 routes (which I used throughout my school life) towards Heeley & beyond.

Andy Fisher

03/10/13 – 15:42

Expanding the comments by David and Chris, buses could run on any route, as the photograph shows, to meet traffic requirements. It was not unknown to find an A fleet bus on a B or C route, especially at times of holiday duplication into the Peak District. There must have been a complex re-charging system and sometimes mileage accumulated by one section and “owed” to another was run off.

Geoff Kerr

03/10/13 – 15:43

Andy. You are right that the Inner Circular and Totley were originally inside the bus station on Platform B, but I have a niggling gut feeling that one direction did eventually end up on Platform A. Deckers were used on the 8/9 until 1968 – I used it to get to King Ted’d from 1964-1971. In 1968, the early single door Swifts replaced deckers on regular day time service. They had Park Royal bodywork. [The only Marshalls ever bought were the W reg AN68 Atlanteans.] Alexander Leopards occasionally appeared at Rush-hour – as did early Leopards, ECW and Burlingham as well as Weymann Fanfare.
I feel that, partly because of the age, 2174 may have been doing a rush-hour extra and that the City may be to indicate it is terminating there.

David Oldfield

04/10/13 – 06:18

Thanks to David, Chris & Geoff for the info. Sheffield was clearly an interesting place to be bus wise back then.

Paul

04/10/13 – 06:18

2174 was originally part of a batch of ten delivered to the “B” fleet in 1953 which comprised numbers 168-177. According to CC Hall, they were renumbered 2168-2177 in 1967 to accommodate computer accounting and as the batch is given as being withdrawn during 1967-1968, presumably 2174 is nearing the end of its days.

RWA 170

Here’s a picture of 170 looking absolutely superb when new in the paint scheme used on Roe bodies before the general manager of the 1960’s decided he knew better!
Photo courtesy of The Tom Robinson Collection

John Darwent

04/10/13 – 06:19

In connection with the C fleet do not forget that they also ran to Bradford on service 66 joint with Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woollen. In the 1960s I was a conductor with YWD and worked on this route. Sometimes our bus would develop a fault at the Sheffield end and then we would be given a STD machine as a change over. What a treat this would be and we did not want to give up the bus. I remember an occasion when a STD bus broke down in Heckmondwike and the crew were given one of their old Leyland PD2s as a change over. I suppose they thought they had seen the last of them.

Philip Carlton

04/10/13 – 08:41

But the Sheffield buses “given” to Woollen were not time expired. Just another “political” move. They were owned by the Railways and as that system had been superseded by NBC, the owner had not changed, just the operator. [Yes they were approaching the end of their lives.]

David Oldfield

04/10/13 – 11:11

In addition to YWD getting some ex Sheffield C fleet vehicles Halifax also received a number of Leyland Leopards with bodywork by Burlingham while Todmorden gained a trio of ECW bodied Leopards by 1971 all were in the Calderdale fleet. The Burlingham bodied ones did not last long but the ECW bodied trio passed to the PTE in 1974.

Chris Hough

04/10/13 – 17:23

I have long been aware of the Railway involvement at Sheffield, Halifax, Todmorden and Huddersfield and some of the above posts (and those previously) indicate how vehicles might be borrowed and mileage adjustments made or balanced.
What I do wonder is how other aspects of the operation worked.
For example were all the road staff employed by one body (presumably the Corporation), were they interchangeable between areas, and indeed how did the depot and maintenance and also the admin operation work.
One can imagine a most complex charging and recharging system with lots of room for argument.

Gordon Green

05/10/13 – 08:32

I have said as much before, but the place to stand was Snig Hill, waiting to cross to Castle Market. Barking AEC’s- some had got it just right, others chuffed like valve or governor bounce (those were the days)- but also the tin front Leylands with a seemingly continuous blast of compressed exhaust from a smaller pipe. The heat & blast would sweep across your legs. I remember a man shouting “That’ll singe yer nylons luv…”

Joe

05/10/13 – 08:35

Gordon I don’t know about Sheffield but in Todmorden there was only one depot while in Huddersfield the two depots were a motor bus depot for the JOC and a depot for the corporation owned trolleys (Huddersfield had no motor buses until the early sixties). Not only was there two depots in Huddersfield there was also two liveries a streamlined one (red and cream) for the corporation and a red one with thin cream bands for the JOC.
Halifax also has two depots at Elmwood one of which was nominally the corporations while the other was for the JOC. The Halifax livery was a standard layout for both fleets.

Chris Hough

05/10/13 – 15:40

I bought a book yesterday showing Pond Street bus station before it was covered, all scaffolding poles & corrugated iron roofs. It had a picture of the Totley bus stand, near the end of platform B. It was an early 60s picture. The bus was an AEC 3?, with what looked like a pre 1945 Weymann body, with the smaller drivers front window.
Did buses have a milometer? If not, how did management structure servicing dates? it would make it easier to use B & C category buses on A routes & vice versa.

Andy Fisher

06/10/13 – 07:55

Andy. If it was pre-war, it would have been a Regent (I). The AECs had a speedo and one other gauge. There would have been a mileage counter on the speedo. The immediate post-war Weymanns were 1947/8 Regent IIIs. I can remember Pond Street as you describe it before the mid-fifties redevelopment – as shown above on the post. [The vehicle behind 2174 – on the 71 – is almost certainly one of Greenland’s PDR1/1/Weymann (or MCCW?). They also used the first Fleetlines (951-3) on this route.

David Oldfield

06/10/13 – 07:57

When the JOC was wound up, Sheffield had five depots – Leadmill, Townhead Street, East Bank, Greenland and Herries. The last three were purpose built for buses. I remember Townhead St being closed in the late 60s but I believe the other four survived at deregulation.
The JOCs did not employ any staff – crews and office staff were all employed by the Corporation, which also owned the garages.

Geoff Kerr

06/10/13 – 14:22

I notice that 2174 has an advertisement for Wigfalls. This was a chain of shops selling TVs and other electrical goods with their head office in Sheffield. We rented our TV from the Dewsbury branch and the service was first class. I suppose their demise was due to the rise of PC World/Currys. Don’t get me started about their lack of service. A month ago I bought a new lap top from them only for the hard drive to pack up. On returning the machine to the shop they had the cheek to say it would cost 50 quid to put right until I quoted the Sale of Goods act then they said it would be repaired under the manufactures warranty. Come back Wigfalls!

Philip Carlton

12/10/13 – 16:27

I remember Wigfalls in Leicester, I bought the latest gadget for my wife, a steam iron, for half-a-crown (12.5p) a week on HP. Those were the days when most buses only had two dials to look at – the speedo and the brake – either vacuum, hydraulic pressure or if you were lucky, air pressure.

Mr Anon

23/10/13 – 15:49

My memories from mid 50s to mid 60s, was that Wigfalls was a hire now, pay weekly firm. Everyone had their twin tub Hoover washers from them & fridges when they became available, I suppose because of the cost. People also hired their TVs from them, either weekly or with a coin meter on the back. They were a massive firm, with loads of Bedford CA vans, now no more.
Back to the Circle route 8 & 9. Around 1980 to 1983, I had a garage on the island on the bottom of Sutherland Road & Carlisle St. At that time they were using Alexander Y types, both bus & coach equipped. Climbing the steep hill was a beautiful booming noise from the Leyland engines. Maybe, the AECs had quietened down by them.

Andy Fisher

23/10/13 – 16:40

Andy, the Y types were strictly speaking DPs. Sheffield/SYPTE never had any bus versions. Yes they would have resounded off the surrounding walls. By the mid ’80s I think all AECs would have departed.

David Oldfield

23/10/13 – 17:37

For a short while, I regularly drove a preserved SBG Y type Leopard (and X reg Midland – one of the last). It was always fun accelerating along narrow, built up, roads. You don’t get sound effects like that from the modern sewing machines. [Mind you, I think an 0680 Bristol RE makes an even better sound!)

David Oldfield

24/10/13 – 07:53

Can you still rent a television? If it goes “on-the-blink” can a “TV-repair-man” still come out in a van to fix it?? Along with Wigfalls so too have gone DER and Rediffusion. So, apart from locally-liveried buses, local advertisements seem to have gone the same way . . . along with local ITV stations. However, local(ly-designed) bus stop flags seem to be coming back into fashion, to replace the DoE 1970s design. Lose some, win one?

Philip Rushworth

26/10/13 – 07:19

Not quite sure what the Alexanders were, it was some had large sloping windows & some had smaller, more upright numerous ones.

Andy Fisher

23/05/15 – 07:08

Does anyone out there remember Herries Road bus garage, I lived next to the garage in the 1950’s I remember it being built.

Glynn Evans

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

16/08/18 – 06:04

Whoever said modern buses were like sewing machines…. I’m not so sure..the early Omnidekas at Brighton & Hove used to make a fantastic noise as I drove them up Elm Grove on 22s & took me back to the noise of NWRCC Royal Tigers on some of the hilly local routes round Matlock in the 1960s

Ian Hudson

Newcastle Corporation – AEC Regent III – KVK 986 – 86


Copyright Unknown


Copyright Unknown

Newcastle Corporation
1947
AEC Regent III
Roe H31/25R

Before the D.V.L.A. It seems to have been common practice that local authorities would issue registrations to bus companies En-block which would then be allocated as and when required, as a result, vehicles which were two or three years apart could have registrations which were numerically quite close. Unfortunately, I do not have access to their fleet records, but Newcastle Corporation would seem to be a good example of this. Newcastle registrations were BB – TN or VK. Post war motor vehicles were AEC, Daimler and the all Leyland Titans, bodies came from a number of sources including, Massey. MCW. Northern Coachbuilders, Park Royal Vehicles, Roe and Weymann, then of course there was the trolleybus fleet. I am speculating here, but it would appear they had most of the registrations between KVK 950 or thereabouts, and LVK 140 ish, but they were allocated between 1947 and 1949. My information suggests that among that number were three 1947 AEC Regent III with H31/25R Roe bodies KVK 984/6 – 84/6. Sorry, I don’t have any further details, I know Newcastle Corporation Transport had some pre-select Daimlers, but I’m inclined to think that these were a 7.7 litre with a crash box. 86 is shown here in its original 1947 blue, and again in the post 1949 yellow livery which had previously been the sole preserve of the trolleybus fleet. The Roe body was one of those timeless classics that would look good in almost any livery. I rather think that as well as those bodied by Roe, the MCW bodied Daimlers also had a window on the stairs, but if memory serves, at some stage they were all either removed or painted out.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

20/11/14 – 11:43

Birmingham (JOJ) and Glasgow (FYS and SGD) reserved large blocks of registrations which were issued over several years. Almost all the FYS block was issued to buses and trolleybuses over the years 1949 to 1958, followed by SGD 1958 to 1964, when the year-letter phase began. Devon issued LTA registrations to Western/Southern National for buses new between 1949 and 1953.

Geoff Kerr

21/11/14 – 06:37

In Leeds while the buses were registered in blocks there was never a special series for them On the other hand all the city council ambulances were given the registration — 999!
In complete contrast West Yorkshire never used blocks of registrations even for a single batch of buses being quite content to take what the licensing office offered and if the number matched the fleet number it was very definitely good luck and not good management!

Chris Hough

21/11/14 – 10:20

Nottingham (after WW2 but not before) invariably had blocks of reg numbers that corresponded to the fleet numbers. All were in the KTV series until the big fleet of 72 Regent/Park Royals, supplied in 1953/54, took OTV 127-198, assuming the fleet numbers of Regents supplied 1934-36. Even then there was clearly some agreement with the licensing authority, since these followed on neatly from the 1949 series of Regent/Metro-Cammells KTV 97-126, which in turn took on fleet numbers previously carried by defunct 1931 Regents.

Stephen Ford

21/11/14 – 15:23

Portsmouth Corporation seemed to use whatever registrations were available in the pre-war and early post-war period. I suspect that the 1939 Leyland Cheetahs were numbered 41-46 to coincide with the allocated registrations BBK941-946. Post-war, Crossley DD42/5T No 28 was also coincidentally registered EBK 28. The others of the batch (EBK 23-27) carried numbers 11-15. The Corporation was “gap-filling” it’s number series at this stage. In the 1950’s, the Corporation had a policy of booking registrations in batches in ending 999. Thus we had 25 PD2s GTP 975-999 (58-82, 1952); 25 PD2s LRV 975-999 (83-107, 1956; 15 PD2s ORV 985-999 (108-122, 1958); 5 PD3s STP 995-999 (123-127, 1959), and 10 Tiger Cubs TTP 990-999 (16-25, 1959). After this the Corporation booked registrations that matched the fleet numbers in what was becoming the “normal fashion” across the industry from the 1960s (although I accept it wasn’t universal practice). As referred to above, it was usually ambulances or fire engines that had a “999” registration, not buses. The buses registered with a “999” didn’t go any faster than the rest, but 122 had a different and marvellous sounding exhaust note during it’s early life – certainly until c.1964/65 – very sporty! .

Michael Hampton

21/11/14 – 17:44

The West Yorkshire Road Car Company did use year block registrations in the period 1934 to 1939 and again from 1946 to 1956. An example for 1935 illustrates the method used. YG 8968 – 9015 registration marks were used for Dennis Lancet 1, Dennis Ace, Bristol G05G and Bristol J05G types. Another example used in 1952/53 were LWR 405 – 435 registration marks issued for a Bedford van, Bristol LS6G, Bristol KSW6B, Bristol KSW6G and Bristol LS5G types. Other letter groups with mixed bus types were BWT, CWT, DWU, EWY, FWX, GWX, JWU, JYG, KWU and OWX. I have omitted AWW as one mark missing in the sequence was AWW 160. After 1956 this practice of mixed bus types in registration groups ceased and shorter runs as described by Chris H were then the norm.

Richard Fieldhouse

22/11/14 – 08:58

I remember in 1967 Nottinghamshire used a block of registrations across 3 companies which as a youngster I thought unusual.
SRB 59F to SRB 65F Mansfield District Lodekkas,
SRB 66/67F Midland General REs,
SRB 68F to SRB 80F Midland General Lodekkas,
SRB 81F to SRB 90F Chesterfield Corporation Panthers.
Mansfield District and Midland General were linked so possibly you could argue it was 2 companies. Does anybody remember anything similar elsewhere?

David Hargraves

22/11/14 – 14:05

Interesting, David – especially as Chesterfield is in Derbyshire! I wonder if the Panthers were an order that was actually diverted to Chesterfield for some reason?

Stephen Ford

22/11/14 – 16:37

In 1967 wasn’t RB a Derbyshire registration? It only became Nottinghamshire later.

KC

22/11/14 – 17:17

‘RB’ was a Derbyshire mark, and the Chesterfield Panthers naturally received Derbyshire registrations. Midland General/Notts & Derby vehicles were registered in Derbyshire up to c.1972, then Derby CBC in 1973/4 (was this after the Trent ‘takeover’?), then Nottingham LVLO.
Mansfield & District vehicles were registered in Derbyshire from 1967 to at least 1970.
Interestingly, the Chesterfield Panthers were fleet numbers 81-90, following on from Roadliners 71-80, so it may have been the Panthers which somehow dictated the above sequence.
I am sure there would have been many more instances of bus registrations following on from one fleet to another, not least because bus and coach registrations once constituted a much higher proportion of the total than they do now. Off the top of my head I recall that (c.1950) DRN241-90 were Ribble 1301-50 and DRN291-310 Preston 8-27 (all PD2s); DRN341-54 were Ribble 284-97 (Sentinels) and DRN355-67 were Scout (Royal Tigers, PD2s, and a Bedford). Don’t forget that there was ostensibly no corporate connection between Ribble and Scout in those days.

David Call

23/11/14 – 06:39

Newcastle Taxation Office allocated reversed JVK exclusively for Newcastle Corporation Transport buses and other municipal vehicles. The mark was first issued in November 1959 and remained in use until December 1963. Newcastle commenced suffix marks on 2 January, 1964.
One of the most intriguing registration features was Liverpool which issued FKF to Liverpool City Transport buses covering the D, E and G suffix.

Kevin Hey

23/11/14 – 09:32

Newcastle Corporation in fact had a pretty good record of matching registrations and panel numbers, as they called them, but only from 1937 onwards. That year saw the arrival of 174-95, Daimler COG5s with MCCW, NCB or EEC (low-bridge) bodies, registered FVK 174-95. The practice continued up to 244 then fell away a little for numbers 245-50, utility-bodied vehicles delivered in 1942 and 1943 as JTN 505/6, JTN 607/8 (Guy Arabs) and JTN 619/20 (Daimler CWG5s).
A new numbering series started from 1 in 1945 but single and double digit registration numbers generally weren’t used. Buses up to 86 had three-digit registration numbers, with the last one or two digits matching the panel numbers. Perhaps in those days there was already a demand for ‘cherished’ low number plates for the few who could afford a posh car to go with them and had the influence to fix it when registering their vehicles! 1 to 86 were registered JVK 421-5, JVK 613-58 and KVK 959-86. Note the gap 6 to 12, more of which anon. From no. 87 onwards the numbers were synchronised.
It’s not really the case that use of the KVK 9xx series was spread over several years. It only covered 3 batches of vehicles in the 59-86 range (59-72 the fourteen Birmingham-style CVG6s, 73-83 eleven more CVG6s with Roe bodies and 84-6 the three Regent/Roes you refer to). These were delivered out of sequence; the two Roe bodied batches in mid-1947 and the Birminghams in mid-1948. More interesting in terms of variety is the 13-58 range, covering no fewer than five batches, all registered JVK 613-58 and delivered between December 1945 and June 1946. Eighteen of these, 41-58, were the single-deckers required for tram replacement on the Scotswood-Throckley route where the narrow and fragile road bridges at Lemington, from which the trams had long been diverted, precluded the use of double-deckers. Of these, eight were Guy Arab 5LWs with Massey bodies (51-58) so that’s another marque to add to your list! 41-50 were AEC Regal/Harringtons. Here’s an undated pic of Regal 41 or 44 on what looks like an inspection visit to Sugley Bridge at Lemington. I think that’s a Regent/Park Royal semi-utility of the 37-40 batch lurking in a side street. All those buildings in the background still exist.

41 or 44

As regards 84-6, I THINK that they might have been part of the small number (70?) of London Transport RT specification chassis released to provincial operators in 1946/7. 84-86 had the RT chassis designation 0961. Provincial Regent IIIs were allocated 0961/2 in 1947, later to become 9612. See Non London Transport RTs for more background. Here’s a higher resolution zoom-in of your shot of 86 showing the gear pre-selector just below the steering wheel. Squint and you’ll see it!

KVK 986_3

All in all Newcastle took delivery of 245 motor buses (1-11/3-136, 164-73, 251-350) and 186 trolleybuses (443-628) from 1946-1950, enabling a clear-out of many pre-war vehicles and of course the last of the trams in 1950. Note that the new panel number series that started in 1945 had reached 136 by 1948 but with a further 100 buses due for delivery in 1949 and 1950 the 60 or so surviving pre-war vehicles (147-250, with gaps) would have required re-numbering. This was avoided by switching back to the original 1-250 series and using 251 to 350 for the 1949/50 deliveries, with 164-73 (see question 2 below) later becoming 364-73 when new AEC Regent Vs arrived in 1956. You‘ve guessed it – the AECs were numbered 137 onwards! Just to spoil the story, 351-3 (PD2/Orions) had appeared in 1954 as UTN 851-3.

Now, can anyone help with a couple of questions:

1. Why was there a gap from 6 to 12 in the post-war panel number series? Newcastle had managed in 1945 to acquire five Daimler CWA6 chassis numbered 1-5 (JVK 421-5) and fitted them with second-hand pre-war bodies in 1945/6/7, then re-bodied all five at Mann Egerton in 1950. The next new vehicles to arrive after 1-5, in late 1945, were numbered 13 onwards. The 6-12 gap was eventually partially filled four years later in 1949 when six all-Leyland low-bridge deckers arrived, being numbered 6-11 and somehow acquiring matching registrations LVK 6-11. Was a batch cancelled before delivery c1945 that might have become 1-12 (or 6-12) and if so what were the details?

2. What was the reason for the arrival in 1948 of the odd batch of Daimler CVD6s single-deckers with Willowbrook bodies, numbered out-of-range as 164-73 (LTN 464-73)? These were diverted from local independent Venture who had already ordered 60 of this combination. The 164-73 range matched that of the ten pre-war Daimler COS4 single deckers (the S designated locally manufactured Armstrong-Saurer engines) that had been transferred to United AS in 1938 with the Branch End set of services, thus creating a convenient panel number gap. Given the eighteen single deckers that arrived in 1946 why were ten more acquired so soon

Tony Fox

23/11/14 – 11:40

Many local taxation offices used 1-99 for motor bikes or local authority vehicles. North Western had LDB 701-LDB 800 allocate in January 1957 and used LDB800 in mid 1960 by which time Stockport was issuing RDB, again NWRC. was allocated a batch which took about 20 months to use.
Manchester Corporation was allocated JND 601-JND 800 in the autumn of 1948. JND 751-JND 800 were used between 10/48 and 02/49 on a batch of Crossleys.
JND 601-JND 700 appeared on a batch of PD2s split between MCW and Leyland bodies between 05/51 and 02/52. In the meantime, JNA 401-JNA 500 had appeared on a batch of MCW bodied PD1s between 01/49 and 05/49! JND 701-JND 750 were allocated to a batch of Daimler CVG6s, bodied by MCW which arrived between 09/50 and 03/51.
In 1953 Manchester received the allocation of NNB 101-NNB 299. NNB 101-118 and 120-125 were placed on a variety of Northern Counties bodied Royal Tigers. 119 and 126-129 were not used. The buses were delivered between 05/53 and 10/53.
NNB 130-NNB 135 were also Royal Tigers with Bond and Burlingham airport coaches, delivered 08/53 -10/53.
NNB 140-NNB 169 were PD2s with NCME bodies delivered between 11/53 and 06/54. Previously NNB 170-NNB 209 had arrived between 07/53 and 10/53 as PD2s with Leyland bodies.
NNB 210-NNB 299 were Daimler CVG6s split between 80 MCW unique to Manchester bodies and 10 MCW Orion bodies delivered between 11/53 and 02/55.
The unused NNB 136-NNB 139 eventually appeared in August 1956 on Tiger Cubs with Burlingham airport coach bodies.
After this, registration batches were requested once a delivery date was firmed up so registrations were very much in date. There was one last glitch. Fleet lines 4701-4760 should have been delivered as DNF 701C-DNF 760C in 1965. Late delivery meant that only 4701-4706 arrived in 1965. 4707-4712 arrived in January 1966 and 4713-4730 arrived in February. The registrations had already been allocated so the vehicles were all taxed in December 1965.
The delays continued and 4731-4760 were then allocated FNE 731D-FNE 760D. 4731-4740 all arrived in December 1966. 4741-4760 were not delivered until January 1967 but were taxed in December 1966 to avoid a registration change.

Phil Blinkhorn

24/11/14 – 06:40

I bought a car back in the mists of time and asked for a “nice” number: so the dealer just phoned the taxation office and said “Can I have a motorcycle number please” and there we were…

Joe

24/11/14 – 06:42

Stockport Taxation office allocated DB 5000-5299 to North Western Road Car Co. issued over the period February, 1924 to March, 1929. This was followed by the block DB 9301-9500 between March, 1929 and March, 1932. Stockport completed the general DB sequence in 1930 and this superseded by JA.

Kevin Hey

25/11/14 – 06:39

On the other side of the Irish Sea, Coras Iompair Eireann frequently booked big blocks of Dublin registrations, as did its predecessor the Dublin United Tramways Company.
Between 1937 and 1940, the DUTC booked four blocks of ZC registrations totalling 250, as follows:
*ZC 701-750: Leyland Lion LT7 (fleet nos. N91-103) and Titan TD4 (R1-37)
*ZC 3751-3800: Titan TD4 (R38-50) and TD5 (R51-87)
*ZC 6601-6700: Titan TD5 (R88-187)
*ZC 8851-8900: Titan TD5 (R188-234) and TD7 (R235-7)
In 1948 and 1949, CIÉ booked two blocks of ZH registrations totalling 230:
*ZH 4440-4539: Titan PD2 (R291-390)
*ZH 6301-6430: Tiger OPS3 (P31-160)
However, P47 ended up being registered ZJ 1182 instead of ZH 6317. I’m guessing it did not enter service as soon as it was delivered, but was instead stored for some time beforehand.
Three blocks of ZJ registrations totalling 230 were booked during 1949 and 1950:
*ZJ 1351-1400: Titan PD2 (R391-440)
*ZJ 4405-4454: Titan OPD2 (R441-90)
*ZJ 5901-6030: Tiger OPS3 (P161-290)
P242 ended up being registered ZO 9646 instead of ZJ 5982 – again, I’m guessing it was stored for some time before entering service.
A single block of 163 registrations in the ZO series was booked in 1953:
*ZO 6801-6963: Tiger PS2 (P291-361), Royal Tiger PSU1 (U1-88) and Titan OPD2 (R541-4)
When three-letter registrations were introduced in 1954, CIE became somewhat modest – booking in blocks of only 70 until 1958…
*JRI 11-80: Titan OPD2 (R581-650)
*BIK 251-320: Titan OPD2 (R651-720)
*OIK 925-994: Titan OPD2 (R729-98)
*CYI 601-670: Titan OPD2 (R799-833) and PD3 (RA1-35)
…then in blocks of just 60 until 1961.
*OYI 801-860: Titan PD3 (RA36-95)
*CZA 661-720: Leopard L2 (E1-60)
*HZA 221-280: Titan PD3 (RA96-152) and AEC Regent V (AA1-3)
However, in 1964, it booked EZH 1-255 for its first C-class Leopard PSU3s, which became the first vehicles to carry matching registrations. Then in 1966, it booked its biggest block, VZI 1-340, for its first D-class Atlanteans.
In 1967, it booked EZL 1-230 for its first SS-class Bedford VAS5 and SB5 school buses. PZO 261-522 were booked in 1968 for SS261-522, followed by UZU 523-646 in 1969 for SS523-646.
Reversed registrations began in 1970, and CIE wasted no time in booking 1-213 IK for its M-class Leopard PSU5s, and 341-410 IK for Atlanteans D341-410. In 1972, 411-554 ZD were booked for D411-554, and in 1973 701-770 ZI and 603-753 ZO were booked for SS701-70 and D603-753 respectively.
By this time, CIE’s relationship with Leyland was deteriorating, and so a lull followed until the tie-up with Bombardier and GAC. In 1981, 2-201 JZL were booked for Bombardier double-deckers KD2-201, followed by 202-300 OZU in 1982 for KD202-300.
Finally, in 1985, EZV 2-120 were booked for GAC rural buses KR2-120 (the ZV code had been allocated to Dublin in 1981 along with SI, ZG and ZS, as it was running out of registrations featuring its original codes). By then, the current year-county-serial registration system was on the horizon, as was the transfer of CIE’s bus operations to Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann.

Des Elmes

13/04/19 – 06:08

Bit late to this discussion on registration numbers but a bit of information on Burys numbers. Until the 1949-50 batch of PD2/4s were delivered the fleet numbers and registrations did not match. This group of 25 buses were 151 to 175 and the registration numbers were EN 9551 to 9555 and 9956 to 9975.
From them on the fleet and registrations matched with the next ones being BEN 176 to 186,the single Deckers were then numbered in a separate series, the AEC Reliances being 81 to 86 and registered FEN 81 to 86.
The numbers continued to match until the year suffix letters were added which started with C as Bury didn’t use A or B letters. The 1965 Fleetlines were AEN 832 to 837C, which were 132 to 137.
Finally,at the very end of its existence in 1969 a new numbering series started at 1 with Atlanteans 1-3 being KEN 231-3G.

David Pomfret

Hanson – AEC/Hanson Regent – KVH 889 – 347

Hanson - AEC/Hanson Regent - KVH 889 - 347

Hanson
1956
AEC/Hanson Regent
Roe H37/28R

This bus was originally a 1938 AEC Regal coach registration ACX903 fleet number 113 and it had a Plaxton C32F body. It was then rebodied by Duple in 1949 to a front entrance bus with 35 seats and renumbered 284. In 1956 the Duple Body was transferred to an ex Bottomleys Motors 1946 Maudslay Marathon lll chassis and numbered 305 with Hanson, a photo of which is here. The chassis was then rebodied by C.H. Roe and numbered 347 with a registration of KVH 889 and classed as a AEC/Hanson Regent H37/28R. On every picture I have seen of this bus the engine side panel is not fitting correctly, I wonder if it ever did.
My thanks go to the Hanson section of the website belonging to Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group for all the information.

18/05/12 – 12:20

Maybe the ill-fitting bonnet cover was caused by chassis sag, especially as it was a double-deck AEC Regal!
The unrelieved red does the vehicle no favours.

Chris Hebbron

19/05/12 – 07:37

The chassis of 347 was actually built up from components of two pre-war Regal chassis, 113 as stated above and ex Chapman’s Regal Burlingham coach VH 9101 of 1936 which was withdrawn in 1954 after an accident.
It was the first of twenty two AEC’s to get rebuilt by Hanson’s over the next ten years and was the only one, apart from fire victim 1964 Reliance rebuild 384, not to pass to Huddersfield Corporation in 1969.
347 is far from being unique for pre war style AEC’s running with the bonnet side hanging off. For example, there are several photos around of Tom Burrows, Barnsley, very similar bodied Regents with the same problem. I’m sure I’ve seen a picture of one of Burrows Regents even running with an ex STL bonnet side in the same position.
Even though it is forty six years since 347 was scrapped, and it was well passed it’s sell by date by then, I have fond memories of riding on it and listening to that melodious prewar manual gearbox.

Eric Bawden

19/05/12 – 09:16

Extant pictures of SUT Regals approaching (or beyond) withdrawal also show the dropped panel effect. Why? That I can’t say.

David Oldfield

19/05/12 – 09:17

These complex rebuilds are indeed really fascinating. At Samuel Ledgard’s we had a magnificent (I loved it) AEC “Regal” coach with Burlingham body – I wonder how many of its merry passengers knew that it was a Birmingham Corporation 1930 Regent 1 double decker !! As Eric says about the Hanson vehicle, its powerful engine and wonderful gearbox, perfectly serviceable but delightfully worn to a lovely tune, were a joy. Incredibly, as it was definitely a “one off”, it was the subject of a Corgi model – a good model if you can forgive the Duple body instead of Burlingham and the registration number incorrect – FWJ 938, should be FJW 938 – ah well, better than nothing I suppose.

Chris Youhill

19/05/12 – 15:21

While I can’t recall seeing any ill-fitting bonnet sides like that shown, I can recall lots of London Transport’s veterans buses, in my childhood, which had unsecured bonnet sides propped up only by the nearside mudguard! Maybe this was to keep worn-out engines from over-heating!

Chris Hebbron

———

20/05/12 – 07:59

I always thought CVD6’s were meant to look like that!

Joe

Hanson – AEC/Hanson Regent – TVH 497 – 361

Copyright Eric Bawden

Hanson
1950
AEC/Hanson Regent
Roe H37/28F

Here we have a picture I took at Sandtoft around 1972/3.
This bus started life in 1950 with Hanson of Huddersfield as an AEC Regal III 9621E with a Duple C33F body, registration EVH 805 fleet number 295. To ‘modernise it’ in 1954 Hanson had Plaxton remove the front bulkhead and build a Venturer style full front on it. It was then renumbered 326.

Hanson - AEC/Hanson Regent - TVH 497 - 361

In 1961 Hansons’ rebuilt the chassis and had a new Roe H37/28F body fitted, re-registered it as TVH 497 and gave it fleet number of 361. Numerically it was the seventh rebuild in the series, the fourth double decker and the first front entrance decker. It passed to Huddersfield Corporation with the stage carriage operations of Hansons’ on 1st October 1969.
Thornes of Bubwith acquired it in October 1970 as their no. 57. Although listed as being withdrawn and scrapped in Thornes own lists in May 1972, it was eventually acquired for preservation.
It is seen in the above colour shot in as acquired condition and what appears to be ex Aachen 22, a 1956 Henschell trolleybus with Ludewig body along side it. As this trolleybus is kept at the Sandtoft Transport Centre one must assume 361’s destination blind is telling the truth! I’m afraid I didn’t keep records of the pictures I took in those days so have to rely on detective work to place and date them.
Sadly 361’s career as a preserved bus didn’t last very long, I believe it suffered a catastrophic engine failure and was sold for scrap.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Eric Bawden

13/07/12 – 09:08

Thanks for posting. I have in my “bought” collection a view of VVH 348 which, by that time, had migrated to the Porthcawl Omnibus Company.

Pete Davies

13/07/12 – 17:12

Pete, That would be 368 when with Hanson, rebuilt in 1962 from 1949 Roe H31/25R bodied Regent III 285, ECX 414.

Eric Bawden

14/07/12 – 07:39

Unfortunately I don’t believe 361 suffered any catastrophic failure at all, but was just sold. It was kept here where I live in Greenfield, less than five minutes walk from where I now live, along with various other vehicles including my own. It just disappeared one day and I was annoyed about it at the time and even more so now, as it is a genuine Saddleworth bus which would have appeared frequently on the Oldham service which ran past Greenfield station.
The shame is that, had it survived at Thorne’s, even out of use, a bit longer it might have joined their fleet of splendidly-restored vehicles.

David Beilby

14/07/12 – 11:23

I was always under the impression that a conrod came through the engine block and that is why it was scrapped. It did get repainted in an approximation of Hanson livery but the shade of red was far too dark, almost maroon. There are some photos about of it in these colours. The correct shade was a Dulux colour called Wexham Red.
I did know the owner at one time but it is many, many years since I lost contact with him.

Eric Bawden

18/06/17 – 07:02

I bought 361 from Thornes and moved it initially to Sandtoft. It was then subsequently moved to Huddersfield goods yard where it was repainted into Wexham Red. The bus subsequently moved to a mill yard in Greenfield where it received the engine from Morecambe 57.
361 attended some rallies in the mid seventies and visited Shildon for the anniversary in 1975 (?).
The bus was sold in serviceable condition when I got married in 1976.

Bill Roberts

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Regal IV – OWB 14 – 214


Copyright ‘unknown’ if you know please get in touch

Sheffield Corporation
1952
AEC Regal IV 9821S 
Roe B44F

Sheffield quickly tried out underfloor engined single deckers when they became available with three Leyland Olympics in 1951 and three of these Roe bodied AEC Regal IV in 1952. Notably, all were for the A fleet although I recall the Olympics in particular being regular performers on the C service 48 to Manchester despite their bus seats. The Regal IVs always seemed to be out of the limelight certainly later in life being used on workmens services to the east end of the City.Of particular note is that these three were owned initially by ACV Sales being purchased by Sheffield in 1954. This photograph shows the legal owner as the Secretary of ACV Sales at 49 Berkeley Square in London. The Sheffield coat of arms is displayed but without a fleet name. Notable is the City of Oxford like vee shape on the front panel which was retained throughout their lives except for 213 which later had an all cream front panel probably as a result of accident damage repairs. There is a substantial semaphore trafficator arm behind the entrance doors. It is hard to imagine what an impact these vehicles must have made being so different from the then standard half cab single decker and with ten more seats. The photo is taken outside the Roe factory in Leeds.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Regal IV codes can be seen here.

16/03/11 – 10:05

AEC? Roe? Perfection? …..and yet these beasts eluded me in my Sheffield childhood. I was a regular passenger on the back-loader Leylands, though. Fascinating about the early ACV ownership – presumably as demonstrators.
I love the Regal IV, especially the RF, but these were a minority with synchromesh gearboxes. Contemporary SUT RegalIV/Windover coaches had a of majority pre-select gearboxes – but even these had a minority of synchros.
As a “heavyweight” man, I never bought into the “over-engineered” tag given to the Regal IV (and Royal Tigers). The heavy Reliance and Leopard righted this wrong but we had to go through a period when I thought vehicles were under-engineered – especially when Tiger Cubs had 0.350 engines.

David Oldfield

17/03/11 – 06:58

I used to go to the Sheffield Depot of Independent TD Alexander (Greyhound) on a Saturday afternoon. There was a fitter there who worked for Sheffield Transport at Greenland Road Depot (apparently Sheffield knew of this arrangement) where the three Regal IV were based at that time. He told me one day that they had sent all three out as Peak District extras on the preceding Bank Holiday Monday – and all three had to be towed back with clutch faults! I seem to recall a fair bit of trouble with the hydraulic clutch operation on the PMT Reliances, probably 214 et all had the same equipment.

Ian Wild

17/03/11 – 18:22

Notwithstanding their frailties, the longevity of these three buses amounting to 16/17 years service was no mean feat in Sheffield terms and compares favourably with the Leyland Olympics of the time. Perhaps their mechanical shortcomings were outweighed by the fact that they were bodied by Roe who had impressed the Department with the quality of the nine PD2’s of late 1951 for the Fulwood – Malin Bridge via Hunters Bar tram replacement.

John Darwent

17/03/11 – 19:22

I can empathise with John’s comments about the Roe bodywork, but would the clutch problems possibly be connected to the gearbox problems experienced by AEC and, subsequently Sheffield, with the early synchros?
I believe it was Classic Bus which carried an article about a catalogue of problems with the early AEC synchro boxes which Sheffield helped ACV to sort out. The OWE Roe/RegentIIIs, and possibly the 1953 RWBs, had crash boxes and all their synchromesh gearboxes were retrofitted.
The pre-select had been designed for the 9.6 engine in the RT; the crash was a pre-war box for the 7.7 engine. Mixing manual box and bigger engine took longer to sort out than expected. Even the giants with a reputation for quality could get it wrong; but they survived by eventually sorting things out.

David Oldfield

19/03/11 – 07:49

The OWE batches of Regent III delivered with Roe bodies in 1952 had 9613A chassis numbers ie constant mesh gearboxes as built. The PSV Circle notes that synchromesh gearboxes were fitted to these buses in 1953. The 1953 batch of RWA registered buses had 9613S chassis numbers ie synchromesh gearboxes as built.
The three Regal IV were withdrawn in 1968, ie 16 years service. The Olympics were withdrawn 1966/67/68 (2) ie 15,16,17 yrs of service. My recollection is that the Regals did relatively light duties (58 to Thorpe Hesley and 106 to Brookhouse Colliery – both Colliery/Works services – being typical). The Olympics were used latterly on the well loaded and hilly service 31 to Lower Walkley. probably due to CoF expiry dates Olympics 11 and 26 outlasted the rear entrance ‘crush loader’ Royal Tigers on this service. My notes at the beginning of 1968 show that at this time 26 was the oldest bus in the fleet and its last repaint was in December 1960 – ‘it looked rather shabby’. By comparison 11 (the ex Demonstrator) had been repainted in June 1966 and ‘had a full set of retrimmed seat cushions’.

Ian Wild

19/03/11 – 17:16

Thanks for clarification, Ian. I lived on the 31 until I was 5, when I moved to Greenhill. I do remember the Regal IVs being 58/Thorpe Hesley regulars.

David Oldfield

04/10/11 – 21:01

That AEC OWB 14 was a regular performer on route 40, Sheffield – Bakewell and was also used on the Bakewell school run via the Hope Valley, been on it many a time when I was at Lady Manners School 1953-56. I also recall another single decker RPA 221 which was a Surrey registration, but I can’t recall if it was a Leyland or AEC. Other AECs I remember on that route started with TWJ — reg at that time.

Chris Webb

05/10/11 – 06:38

Chris RPA 221 was an ex demonstrator Leyland Olympic, the registration a Surrey one, local to Weymann at Addlestone. The AECs you mention were the C fleet integral AEC/Park Royal Monocoaches

David Oldfield

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Regal IV – OWB 13 – 13

Sheffield Corporation - AEC Regal IV - OWB 13 - 13

Sheffield Corporation
1952
AEC Regal IV
Roe B44F

Sheffield 13 (originally 213) is passing a splendid array of shop fronts in Haymarket, Sheffield on a midday 29 to Blackburn (in Rotherham – not Lancashire). This was a works service to Shardlows Works midway between Sheffield and Rotherham. A low bridge required the use of single deckers. I cannot recall seeing a bus on this service showing a destination so presumably was not on the standard blinds. An oddity of this bus by this date (August 1967) was the plain cream front presumably after an accident damage repair. As delivered it had a City of Oxford style swoop painted blue a feature which was retained by sisters 12 and 14 to the end of their service life. I used to chat to a Greenland Depot Fitter when he worked at Greyhound in Sheffield on a Saturday afternoon. I recall him saying how unreliable these three buses were with repeated clutch and door failures. He told me one Bank Holiday weekend all three were sent on Peak District extras and all three had to be towed back to garage.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

Halifax Corporation – AEC Regal III – BCP 544 – 268


Photorapher unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1949
AEC Regal III
Roe B33F

Now this is one of my favourites I have travelled miles on this bus, we had a bus club trip on this bus but unfortunately I can not remember where we went, over to Lancashire I think. This bus with its very smart Roe body was originally delivered with rear entrance in 1949 but was converted to front entrance in 1954 and became a B33F.
I can remember the way the driver had to open the doors by pulling an in cab lever about 3 foot from front to back or vice versa to close them, all mechanical no such luxury as air pressure. What is a bit strange is that the Regal had a four speed crash gearbox, I wonder why the preselect gearbox wasn’t available seeing that it was standard for the Regent RT from 1938 and optional from 1947 for the Regent III. 

Strictly speaking, the preselect box was standard on all Regent/Regal IIIs, from 1947 especially with 9.6 engines. Sheffield, like Halifax, is particularly mountainous and both authorities specified non-standard AECs for a number of years. [Pre-war they continued to have 8.8 engine long after the 7.7 had become standard.]
It is generally agreed that a manual box gives more ultimate control than an epicyclic box – especially in hilly conditions. Sheffield went from preselectors to manual in 1952 for Regent III and Regal IV and stuck with manual box AECs, and Leylands, until 1961.

David Oldfield

Sorry wrong, they had pre selector gearboxes and I am sure 9.6 engines, 73 and 74 were similar Regal chassis built with double deck bodies, I am sure about the pre selector as I often climbed in the cabs of this and 269 at the back of Elmwood depot but as can be seen the door move seriously weakened the body which fell apart, the chassis would have lasted forever.

Christopher

I checked they definitely had 9.6 engines

Christopher

The pre select gearbox was designed by a Major Walter Gordon Wilson and was originally for use by British army vehicles but London Transport & Daimler made good use of it. Daimler also used it in some of their cars.

Trevor

23/11/13 – 13:48

BCP 544_5

Peter mentioned in his caption (a long time back !) that he remembered 268 being used on a bus club trip to Lancashire or somewhere. It’s taken long enough to find it, but here is my own admittedly rather poor photo of it whilst on such a trip outside Bolton Corporation’s depot in about 1965 or 1966. We visited Rochdale, Bury and Bolton Corporation’s depots on that occasion, and here it is posed alongside a contemporary Crossley SD42 which was at the time being used by Bolton’s Welfare Department and I believe was the one that was later preserved.

John Stringer

26/11/13 – 07:29

Thanks John for jogging my memory I do not remember Rochdale but I was at Bolton if you go to this link  I am on the right. I unfortunately did not have a camera in those days.

Peter

Halifax Corporation – AEC Regal III – AJX 848 – 258


Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1949
AEC Regal III
Roe B32R

A Halifax Regal III bus in coach livery of all over cream with an orange waistband, there was no difference whatsoever that I know of between this Regal and one in the usual green orange and cream except the livery. This shot shows very clearly how this vehicle has been converted for one man operation by the layout of the windows to the left of the drivers cab, I think this conversion would have happened at a later date than the rear to front entrance conversion of 1953/4. You can also see the old style pop-up trafficators, one on the waistband in front of the passenger compartment doors and the other just to the bottom left of the drivers windscreen. I doubt if this vehicle would of been converted to flashing indicators before being withdrawn from service with Halifax in 1963.

Converted at the same time I am told

Christopher

13/03/12 – 06:21

If my memory is still up to scratch, the reversed livery denoted OMO when it was first tried out. Much later, a form of reversed livery was used on DP vehicles and coaches, but by that time OMO was universal on single deckers, which had reverted to normal green and orange.

John (tee)

20/09/12 – 06:55

Is it possible to read the wording underneath the Halifax coat of arms? I think the wording is “Halifax Joint Committee”.
The legal lettering would have referred to the owner of the vehicle, either Halifax Corporation or, in those days, the Railway Executive.
This was a JOC vehicle and the old joint crest which included reference to the two railway companies was obsolete by 1949.

Geoff Kerr

Halifax Corporation – AEC Regal III – BCP 544 – 258


Copyright Roger Cox

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1949
AEC Regal III
Roe B32R

Halifax buses seemed to undergo a curious renumbering merry go round from time to time, as if fleet numbers were somehow on ration. The number 258 was a case in point. Here is another Regal III of the 1949 batch, BCP 544, which, like its fellow AJX 848 also on this site, was rebuilt from B32R to B33F in 1953/4. It originally joined the ‘B’ Joint Committee fleet as number 269, but in October 1964 it was transferred to the ‘A’ Corporation fleet as number 99. In the following month it was transferred back again to the ‘B’ fleet with the number 268, but it was then renumbered again as 258, which is the number it carries in this picture. This Regal was the only remaining example of its type when I joined Halifax Passenger Transport as a Traffic Clerk towards the end of 1964, and I drove it from time to time when training for my PSV licence in early 1965. Despite its sixteen years of service, it was a delightful and characterful bus to drive, and carried its age very lightly.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

24/10/12 – 07:58

One thing that has always intrigued me with exposed radiators is the variety of ways people find for keeping them warm. This one’s ‘appendage’ looks quite professional, certainly far better than a bit of old newspaper!

Pete Davies

24/10/12 – 11:15

I was going to refer to these over another recent posting. They seem to suggest that AEC and Leyland engines ran “cold” but did Daimlers D’s ever have them? – because they ran hot, it seems, judging by the supplementary air intake, otherwise known as leaving the bonnet side open and resting on the mudguard. Am I anywhere near, Engineers?

Joe

24/10/12 – 11:30

That’s an interesting observation, Pete. I can’t make out the exact nature of the blind on this vehicle, but, as you say, there were many different approaches. I’ve always been fascinated, for example, with East Yorkshire, which seemed to like placing an aluminium sheet over part of the exposed radiator, although, for reasons I’ve not understood, the actual treatment varied between vehicles, even ones of the same batch. Did the engineers know the fleet so well that they could tailor blinds individually, since although you could raise or lower a flexible blind, an aluminium sheet was a fixed feature?

Roy Burke

24/10/12 – 12:47

What a marvellous sight to see this morning as I land on the OBP Homepage bleary-eyed !
How lucky you were Roger to have driven this delightful bus. Around this time I was still at school, and this last remaining Regal was sometimes used to transport us the relatively short distance to Woodside Swimming Baths if the more usual Nimbus was unavailable. Our local Bus Club hired it in 1965 for a memorable visit to Bolton, Bury and Rochdale Corporations – on which it performed admirably. It was almost regarded as a mascot by the local enthusiasts.
Not long afterwards it was sold to local building contractor Pickles for staff transport. HPT repainted the lower panels cream before sale, and it pottered around the locality in an increasing state of decrepitude until finally scrapped.
Unfortunately, the framework modifications involved in moving the entrance to the front – cutting out a large piece when there was already a weakness due to the emergency door being directly opposite, and cutting into the front bulkhead to allow for one-man-operation, severely compromised its structural integrity.
The uncanny thing about your photo is that aside from the fact that 258 was scrapped forty-odd years ago, it could have been taken this morning. Parked in what is nowadays referred to as 7-Bay at Skircoat Garage, the building is exactly the same – even to having the same shades of paint on the wall, though today it is maybe peeling a bit more.

John Stringer

24/10/12 – 17:48

There was always a timelessness about the old Skircoat Garage, wasn’t there, John. One would have been only mildly surprised to chance across a tram or two, such was the period feel to the place. I wrote to Geoff Hilditch a few years back to send him copies of my small store of Halifax bus pictures, and he very kindly replied in a long letter. One of the things he told me was that the Skircoat depot, along with Elmwood, is facing demolition in the near future. Another piece of treasured transport history seems to be about to vanish.
Joe’s comment about hot running engines is interesting. Gardners were always cool runners, which proved to be a bit of a problem when bus heaters became generally adopted. The vast majority of wartime Daimlers had the AEC 7.7 engine, as did the bulk of utility Bristols. Any cooling problems must have been caused by the installation design. Daimler’s own CD6 8.6 litre engine proved to be highly variable in quality between individual examples, the best being satisfactory, but the worst were as bad as the contemporary Crossley HOE7.
Installations were probably made to cater for a worst case scenario.

Roger Cox

Leeds exposed radiator buses had both an aluminium plate and a roll down blind attached to it. There were two distinct designs the AEC version covered the radiator from the bottom to just over half way The one used on Titans and Crossleys was around 2-3 feet deep and was positioned mid radiator. These were generally fitted around this time of year and were removed in March/April.

Chris Hough

24/10/12 – 17:49

One of this batch came to Rochdale when I lived there in the early 1960’s to operate for the Social Services Department. If I remember correctly it was fitted with a wheelchair lift. I regret I cannot remember the number of the vehicle but it was painted in Rochdale Corporation’s then new livery of cream with a single blue band. It was a case of what might have been as Rochdale was of course a staunch AEC user but never actually had any post-war single deck half cabs.

Philip Halstead

25/10/12 – 07:14

Isn’t it interesting how some postings generate a lot of comment, sometimes veering off at tangents from tangents from tangents, while other postings generate very little? It’s all part of the fun of taking part in the world of the forum!

Pete Davies

25/10/12 – 07:47

You’ve noticed that as well, Pete.

David Oldfield

25/10/12 – 12:02

Of course it’s unrelated to interest or enthusiasm, for there would be plenty of silent admirers, even with quiet posts. What always intrigues me are the posts which run their course, go silent for ages, then spring into life again! And by some queer quirk, I sometimes find the whole thread passed me by the first time round!

Chris Hebbron

25/10/12 – 12:01

The Regal that went to Rochdale was BCP 543 and it was given the fleet number 500. It said “Welfare Service” in the destination box.

David Beilby

25/10/12 – 12:03

Geoffrey Hilditch is alive and well. I met him the other week on one of his visits to Wigan. He still drives from Torquay and back.
He said how much he enjoyed his time at Halifax and wondered if today’s bus managers feel the same, with all the financial pressures.
I didn’t know about the garages though – they are still there!

Geoff Kerr

25/10/12 – 16:03

I agree with John and Roger – Skircoat Garage has hardly changed over the intervening years. Enjoy it while you can – word is that the site has been sold to ASDA and the depot will be demolished in the near future

Ian Wild

26/10/12 – 07:34

Hope ASDA realise that they’re going to have ghosts of AEC Regals amongst their frozen ready-meals!

Stephen Ford

26/10/12 – 07:35

Ian. How sad to think that a useful building providing work, skills, training and local employment has to die to build yet another Temple to the £1 bottle of milk. If I lived there I would never step foot inside the place but, just last weekend I bought a new camera from Curry’s/PC World built on the site of the former Winterstoke Road Garage of Bristol Omnibus Company..but not without thought.

Richard Leaman

26/10/12 – 14:16

The same thing happened to the Newcastle Corporation central works at Byker which employed dozens of people with all manor of skills, as well as being a garage they could virtually build a vehicle from scratch. Now it’s a retail park where you can buy all manor of goods, mostly produced in China. I think it comes under the definition of progress.

Ronnie Hoye

27/01/13 – 16:58

rad_blind

Reverting to the comments about radiator blinds/mufflers, one company that was very organised in this respect was Bristol. Their blinds had a white stripe down the middle. At various points on the system – the one I happen to recall was at Bath Bus Station – there was a miniature display of a radiator with blind. This would be set to show the desired blind setting for the day, to match temperature. The white stripe on the blind meant that an inspector could spot from a distance that the driver had set his own blind correctly. The attached view shows buses with two of what appear to have been four different settings. You can just make out in the left hand view the clips to which the upper part of the blind would be attached. It would be interesting to know whether the setting was determined by head office or locally. I can imagine there being considerable temperature variation on the same day between the coast at Weston and the high ridge of the southern Cotswolds.

Alan Murray-Rust

01/06/13 – 15:30

I’m a Bristolian and spent several years working for BOC but never knew that! Remember Winterstoke of course and was quite shocked when I saw it had gone.

Geoff Kerr

03/10/16 – 08:15

Geoff….I pass the site where Winterstoke Road Bus Garage was located just about every day and the line up of retail warehouses is just a terrible replacement for that superb garage. In my mind I see lines of K, L and KSW parked up with a few of those new fangled Lodekka’s! Once upon a long time ago I spent many an hour with my old friend Clive checking fleet numbers and spotting favourites from the safety of the grassed areas just inside the front walls. I do remember the radiator setting sign also mentioned….it is a good 40 plus years ago but have an idea there was one on the back wall of the old Marlborough Street Bus Station..in the garage/parking area…I remember seeing it/them many times and think one might be preserved at the BVBG garage. I will have a look on the next open day.

Richard Leaman