Tag: SELNEC PTE

The First PTEs – Part One – Ashton under Lyne

Not read from the beginning, click here

With its blind already set for the next outward journey, LTC 768 a 1950 H30/26R PD2/3 travels along Warrington Street, unrecognisable today, towards the bus station. Route 128 was originally trolleybus route 217. Haughton Green was a small village beyond Denton which lost its rural aspect in the late 1950s when Manchester built large overspill estates in the area.

The PD2 was one of a batch of 10, originally numbered 2-7, 9, 23, 25 and 76 which were renumbered 1-10 in 1960. The renumbering matched the last number of the registration with the fleet number LTC 770, originally 76, becoming number 10.

The photo was taken after the inception of SELNEC, so the coat of arms and the Gothic fleet name script are missing. The unrepaired tree damage and grubby bonnet were unusual for Ashton and is indicative of many depots’ reaction to the takeover. I travelled to and from primary school many times on this and other vehicles of the batch in 1952 and 1953 on the prestige service 9 between Ashton and Rochdale. In those days the bus was resplendent in the dark blue, white and red livery.

The bus was one of only four operated by SELNEC of the eight that passed to them from Ashton and became 5406 in the fleet, being finally withdrawn in 1970 though it survived in the Mossley Rd garage yard in Ashton blue and cream well into 1974, probably as long as it would have lasted with Ashton.

XTC 854 is a Bond bodied Guy originally fleet number 39 and renumbered to 67 in 1964. One of four H32/28R Guy Arab IVs originally bought in 1956 specifically for the number 14 Ashton to Mossley service which, with its long drag up to the Hartshead area from Ashton and the even harder, sharp ascent from Mossley, gave problems to the Leylands in the fleet.

Bond was a short lived but highly reputable body builder in Wythenshawe, Manchester. Ashton was its biggest customer with rebodied and new trolleybuses as well as the Guys. With its preferred body builders Crossley and Leyland either out of or about to leave the marketplace, Bond looked set to gain Ashton’s future business – as well as many other customers – but labour disputes ruined the company and Ashton had to look elsewhere.

All four passed to SELNEC – the only Guys in the fleet, though Bolton contributed some Bond bodied Leylands – and this bus became 5467. Photographed on the western edge of Ashton Bus Station the bus is devoid of any logo, crest or title to the offside observer. I’ve not found a confirmed withdrawal date for the batch but memory says 1971, again in blue and cream, as part of SELNEC’s determination to reduce the average age of the fleet, slightly frustrated by the delay in delivery of Fleetlines and Atlanteans.

Following the demise of Bond, Ashton followed its next door neighbour, Oldham, to Crossgates, Leeds and for the next four batches of double deckers ordered 65 seat traditional bodies on PD2/40 chassis with traditional radiators. 19 NTD was number 19 in the fleet from the first batch delivered in 1960. 1965 saw a fifth batch but with the forward entrance version of the body on PD2/37 chassis.

Ashton followed Oldham in another regard in so far as, in the last days of its independence it placed the coat of arms and script on the between decks forward panels and, in Ashton’s case, the legal lettering followed “upstairs”.

Photographed on Portland St, Manchester, on the southern edge of Piccadilly Gardens and bus station, 19 is on former trolleybus service 218 from Stalybridge via Ashton and Ashton Old Rd.

19 became 5419 in the SELNEC fleet and was repainted in fleet colours though it didn’t survive into GMT days, having a much shorter life than envisioned by either its makers or its original owner.

Though Ashton’s fleet was relatively small, never exceeding 50 vehicles, it moved with the times. In 1966 it took eight Atlanteans bodied by Roe and followed these with a batch of PDR1A/1 Atlanteans in 1969 bodied by Northern Counties to H43/28D fitted for OMO.

The last of these was PTF 861G, fleet number 61 which was delivered after the inauguration of SELNEC in basic Ashton colours with SELNEC Southern legal lettering. Taken on Penny Meadow, Ashton, the birthplace of actress Amanda Barrie, 61 is already grubby though it has reflective number plates, legalised just before delivery. Eventually becoming 5461 and gaining SELNEC livery the bus survived until 1982 by which time it was part of the GMT fleet.

After the formation of SELNEC, a number of outstanding orders from the constituent Corporations were delivered in SELNEC livery, some had details amended by the new operator prior top delivery, others were – colour scheme apart – to the standard
specified by the departments which ordered them. Ashton had a repeat batch of Northern Counties bodied Atlanteans to the same specification as the 1969 batch on order for 1970. Five were ordered but only four were delivered these being VTE 162H to VTE 165H and these appeared as 5462-5465. A further order to the same specification was placed for 1971 but this and the last one of the 1970 order were cancelled with Northern Counties and the six PDR1A/1 chassis received newly designed Northern Counties bodies to SELNEC’s new standard design, serving as single doorway prototypes. Originally numbered EX1-EX6, they later became 5466-5471 having the Manchester registrations PNF 941J-PNF 946J.

The last bus built to Ashton’s specifications, VTE 165H is a Northern Counties bodied H43/28D PDR1A/1 Atlantean delivered in 1970. Numbered 5465 I suspect it is turning close to the bus station. The all Leyland double decker in the background is a bit of a mystery. It isn’t ex Ashton as it has sliding vents rather than half drop windows. Is it a canteen as the earlier facilities opposite the fire station closed when the new bus station opened and I have a nagging feeling it was a while before facilities opened at the new site.

Copy by Phil Blinkhorn – Photographs by Roger Cox

08/2013

 

Click here to view Part Two – SHMD Board

 

03/08/13 – 07:15

One note regarding SELNEC fleet numbers. Only one Ashton bus carried its SELNEC fleet number on the blue livery and this was the last repaint into the blue livery, PD2 5436. Buses were only renumbered on repaint and of the SELNEC constituents Ashton was unique in this regard.

A couple of minor points. Oldham changed their livery but continued hand painting into GMT days. I believe the only municipal spray facilities were those in Manchester and Rochdale and brush painting remained the norm elsewhere.

There is also a typo in the SELNEC number of the first vehicle featured which was allocated the number 5408. Ironically the bus that would have been 5406 was the only one of the batch to gain orange livery, but this had been cut down as a towing vehicle just before the formation of SELNEC. It was preserved for a time, as also was sister 7. It’s a real shame the latter didn’t survive as they looked magnificent in original livery.

David Beilby

03/08/13 – 07:17

I was a member of a group who tried to preserve one of the Leyland bodied PD2s.This was on a farm somewhere in darkest Lancashire.We went one Saturday and after a long time using a farm tractor we managed to get the bus to start .The leader of the group the late John Leadbeater drove lorrys for a company in Batley West Yorkshire and he was given permission to park the bus at the depot Alas shortly afterwards before any serious work could be carried out John had to leave and so the bus had to go too.I think efforts were made to find another home but this was fruitless and so the bus went to PVS at Barnsley.I cannot remember the bus registration but I do recall Downing Street on the destination blind.

Philip Carlton

03/08/13 – 07:18

For clarification does the reference to ‘George Hilditch’ refer to G G Hilditch, who held various posts in the ‘municipal bus industry’, latterly being the General Manager at Leicester City Transport, and who generally titled himself as Geoffrey Hilditch?

Michael Elliott

03/08/13 – 08:00

Thanks for your comments David. Re painting, Manchester and Rochdale certainly had spray booths and as far as I remember, so did North Western. I’m surprised about Oldham as I understood the dreadful pommard and cream was sprayed. Before I write the piece on Salford can anyone confirm the simplification of the livery to a single cream stripe and overall green was to, as I’ve understood it for years, allow simple spraying.

Phil Blinkhorn

03/08/13 – 09:43

Michael, you’ve picked up an error missed by three of us who read the proof!

Phil Blinkhorn

05/08/13 – 08:13

One point not made in the text but highlighted by the last two pictures is that the Smallshaw Circular and the Hurst Circular followed the same route but in opposite directions.

The routes involved some long flat stretches and some steady but fairly easy climbs. Heavily loaded at peak periods as Smallshaw and Hurst contained 1920s council houses where many workers from the town and Manchester resided, the routes passed the depot and were the nominated running in turns for new and off maintenance vehicles as no part of the routes was more than ten minutes drive from the depot.

Phil Blinkhorn

05/08/13 – 08:13

I was at first surprised to read that Ashton’s Guys were purchased to cope with hills that Leylands were having difficulty with, since Gardner’s 8.4 litres were never a match for Leyland’s 9.8. But then I remembered once reading something similar about Northern General using 5HLW-powered Guy single deckers on their hilliest routes. This cannot be about performance, so I can only assume it’s something to do with Gardners staying cool when other engines get all hot and bothered.

Whatever the reason, they sounded very nice, and I also liked the Bond bodies very much. In retrospect they remind me of earlier de-Manchesterised Crossley bodies, as shown at this link.

Peter Williamson

05/08/13 – 10:41

Peter, you may well be right regarding the cooling. I had cousins of a similar age who lived in Hazelhurst overlooking the route and I spent many weekend and summer holiday days with them. Before the Guys arrived I recall seeing overheated Leylands pulled in on the Mossley side of the Gorsey Lane, Mossley Rd junction eventually being “refreshed” by the staff of the adjacent motor repair garage.

In addition to regular traffic Hartshead Pike, for which the stop was at the highest point on the route, was a great draw for people at weekends and during the summer so loads were often heavy. As I recall the Guys were the only type that didn’t appear on the 1 and 3 Circulars during their initial running in.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/08/13 – 06:00

I recall the “mystery bus” in the background of the photo of 5465. It was an ex Bolton all-Leyland PD2 which was converted to a mobile church. It spent quite some time in Ashton.

John Hibbert

28/08/13 – 12:32

Thanks for clearing that up John

Phil Blinkhorn

29/08/13 – 06:40

I am a native of Rochdale and discovered the buses of Ashton Corporation when I started to attend Secondary School (Rochdale Technical) which was in Rochdale town centre.

I always remember the destination blinds of Ashton buses which were ‘economical’ with their text. Buses arrived in Rochdale showing ‘Rochdale via Oldham’. On departing they would show ‘Via Oldham Ashton’. The ‘Via Oldham’ being the same words displayed in both directions. The conductor would only have to make a minimal number of turns of the destination blind winder making Rochdale disappear and Ashton show up.

In Phil’s article there are two photos illustrating another example of the sharing of destination blind text in the word ‘Circular’ which was shared as ‘Hurst Circular’ on one hand and ‘Circular Smallshaw’ on the other.

No doubt there were various other examples on the Ashton blinds. Another operator serving Rochdale that used this method of using shared text was Hebble.

David Slater

29/08/13 – 10:41

The practice of saving space on blinds in this manner was not uncommon. Manchester, for instance, did something similar on the via blinds using 5 lines to cover 6 points. Thus, a outward journey of service #40 would show ‘Victoria Park, Birch Park, Kingsway’ and inward would show ‘Kingsway, Birch Park, Victoria Park’.

Orla Nutting

11:08

John,

I wonder if this mobile church was ex-Bolton 408 (DBN 311) which was sold to “Gospel Bus, Norley, Frodsham” in March 1966, and is now preserved.

For a while this owner had ex-Aldershot & District AEC Reliance/Weymann 370 (XHO 370), which I photographed in a field in Frodsham on 30/12/1986.

It later moved to Northern Ireland and later to preservation in A&D livery, having been exchanged for a single-deck Atlantean TBK 197K, ex-Portsmouth. See it at this link.

Dave Farrier

29/08/13 – 19:14

Manchester via blinds came in 3 varieties until 1958: totally informative with 3 waypoints listed, the partially informative such as Limited Stop and All Night Service (which to the initiated indicated that double fare was in operation) or the confusingly hopeless where a blank portion of the blind was shown and, of course, the equally opaque use of the word FOG, meant to show the bus was running off the time table due to fog somewhere (normally in the suburbs) but which meant nothing to the intending passenger. The 1958 opening of the Kingsway extension and the use of the road to bypass the log jam that was Cheadle village led to route 1, which always showed Limited Stop, being split into the 161 and 162. This created a new subset on Parrs Wood depot via blinds which could then be set to show Limited Stop via Cheadle for the former or Limited Stop via Kingsway for the latter.

There was some intelligent use of the via blinds for football specials with destinations of Old Trafford and Maine Rd, both of which appeared on the destination blinds for service buses, the latter being a short working point on the 123 when it was converted from the 213 trolleybus service, rather than Moss Lane East which had been the trolleybus short working. The football specials had special fares and would, even when not full, ignore ordinary passengers at bus stops. The destination blind would thus be set to Football Match and the via blind would show either Old Trafford or City Ground (strangely not Maine Rd!)

Orla’s explanation of the use of the blinds when 3 waypoints were shown is as the system was supposed to be used but there is a mass of photo evidence to show many crews couldn’t be bothered about turning the blind handle even one revolution and the blinds are often seen as set in reverse direction to the service.

Phil Blinkhorn

12/05/14 – 09:01

The Guy Arab IVs were withdrawn in 1970.

The 4th photo, of No.61 is on Warrington Street, not on Penny Meadow.

The 5th photo, shows VTE 165H turning from Warrington Street into the bus station.

The Guys were not the only type that didn’t appear on circulars 1 and 3 on initial running in turns. The front entrance PD2s, the Roe bodied Atlanteans and single deckPanther Cubs did not.

Dave Ward

13/05/14 – 08:50

Thanks Dave for your clarification re the withdrawal date for the Guys. Your comment re the running in turns surprises me, apart from the Panther Cubs perhaps, as the Guys were such a notable exception to the norm and, apart from my own information, I’ve seen the same statements about running in turns elsewhere.

Thanks also for correcting the location of photo #4.

Phil Blinkhorn

14/05/14 – 06:11

Besides being parked in the Mossley Road depot on delivery, the first time I saw the front entry PD2s in service was on the 127 Haughton Green and 30 Edgeley services. They very rarely ventured on to the circular services. And if they did, were replaced assoon as a rear platform PD2became available The Roe bodied Atlanteans were known as “trolleybus replacement vehicles” and entered service on the 218/219 from new. They did not appear on the circulars until one man operation commenced. The Letters of their registration numbers was YTE, the same as the trolleybuses that they replaced. The Panther Cubs were used on the 4 to Park Bridge and the 2 Gambrel Bank Circular and after one man operation commenced were the normal Sunday vehicle on the 14 Mossley service.

Dave Ward

14/05/14 – 08:29

The Panther Cubs appeared on the 5 (Droylsden to Smallshaw) service when new and I rode on them from Droylsden to Ashton as part of a more convoluted route home from school occasionally.

David Beilby

15/05/14 – 07:45

David.
The 5 Droylsden service was the first to be converted to omo in 1967, which is the year the Panther Cubs were delivered. They were E registered, meaning they were registered prior to 1st August. 1967 is also the year of the creation of route 2 Gambrel Bank Circular, which was single deck operated from the outset by the Panther Cubs. Only one vehicle was required. As I recall,the service was not an all day service, which enabled the same vehicle to operate the equally infrequent 4 to Park Bridge. Whilst not doubting that the Panther Cubs appeared on the 5, the first of the 1966 Atlanteans had been fitted for omo in 1967 for service 5, which was Ashton’s first omo service of that era.

The first new vehicles would usually appear on 3, Hurst Circular, appearing on 1, Smallshaw Circular the following day. Two vehicles were required for each circular route. I recall that when I first moved to Ashton that two of the 1955 (UTB) PD2s at that time the newest Leylands in the fleet) would be on one circular with two of the 1950 (LTC), PD2s on the other. This then changed every other day, with the vehicle type changing circular. eg: UTBs on Hurst Circular and LTBs on Smallshaw Circular on a Monday with Tuesday finding a pair of UTBs on the Smallshaw and a pair of LTCs on the Hurst, then Wednesday as Monday. When the first Roe PD2/40s were delivered in 1960, this arrangement continued with a pair of them alternating every other day with a pair of the UTB batch Crossley PD2/12s. From 1962, with the delivery of the second batch of the RoePD2/40s, this practice continued, but both circulars had RoePD2/40s operating them. However, as I already mentioned, this practice ceased with the delivery of the front entry Roe PD2/37 in 1965, these vehicles not entering service and saw little use on the circulars.

I have a theory regarding new vehicles and their initial entry to service on the circular routes and why this practice changed in 1965. It possibly had nothing to do with running in turns.

T.P. O’Donnell became General Manager at Ashton in 1954. When I returned to live in Ashton in 1957, O’Donnell lived just four houses from where my family lived on Broadoak Road. He left Ashton for Northampton in either 1963 or 1964. 1964 was the year the last Roe PD2/40 rear platform were delivered and the last to enter service on the Smallshaw and Hurst Circulars. Was it O’Donnell who insisted that at least two of his newest buses operated past his house every day, a practice that started from his arrival in 1954 and ended when he left in 1963/4? We shall probably never know, but it is a possibility.

Dave Ward

15/05/14 – 17:43

Dave may well have a point about Mr O’Donnell and the use of new vehicles on the circulars. This could be amplified by the fact that the first vehicle in the peacock livery, a GTJ registered Crossley, appeared on both routes just prior to Christmas 1954 on what had been Leyland territory for some while. Mr O’D showing off to the neighbours?

After he left things may well have changed but I rode on 45 on the 1 and 42 on the 3 when a few days old in 1965. This may have been a case of depot staff following tradition, at this remove we will probably never know.

Phil Blinkhorn

21/06/14 – 15:28

I suspect the photo of LTC 768 showing “Haughton Green 128” shouldn’t take long to put a date to. I spent the first 44 years of my life domiciled in Haughton Green, and seem to remember the 128 variation only being introduced in the late 60s, towards the end of both Ashton Corpy’s separate existence, and of the bus pictured. Technically, trolleybus 217 – and who’d have thought a “rural village” could justify the investment of trolleys instead of motorbuses – became motorbus 127 in 1960, when buses simply ran up Two Trees Lane and turned right onto Haughton Green road, before turning round opposite the Jolly Hatters and returning whence it came. The council “overspill” estate necessitated the introduction of circulars, with the 127 continuing clockwise round the estate, and anti-clockwise journeys introduced as 128s. Around 1980, Greater Manchester Transport renumbered them 347/348 respectively, and de-reg resulted in the 348 being dropped in favour of a “frequent intervals” 347 as it is now.
Interesting to note also that the front entrance PD2s were initially allocated to 127s in favour of Ashton locals. By SELNEC days, when “standard” Fleetlines stuck rigidly to buses heading North out of the bus Station, and the 127/128 never seeing anything newer than the EXx Atlanteans until the arrival of the superb Scanias for the Trans-Lancs Express.

Phil Longdon

21/11/14 – 06:30

I was brought up in Ashton in the 60’s and lived in Cedar Street, Kenworthy Avenue (Hurst) and latterly Willshaw Lane.
My earliest memory was the number 7 running along Curzon Road and Kings Road operated by old wartime Guys, rebodied by Roe in the fifties, until replaced by the all Leyland Titans.
We moved to Hurst so used the Circulars or the 7 to get into town. The Roe bodied PD2s with rear entrances were the usual vehicles but I do recall catching, only once, a forward entrance version. The number 5 initially had the single deckers in use and later the Trolley Bus replacement Atlanteans.
The number 2 started after we moved to Willshaw Lane. A variety of vehicles were used on this including the Guy Arab/Bond vehicles, all Leyland PD2s, PD2/Roes and the two single deckers.
I own the surviving PD2/Roe rear entrance vehicle no. 39, which has been stored securely under cover for a number of years, and I am hoping to start its restoration shortly.

David Wilson

16/11/15 – 06:26

Just revisited this page after quite a while:-

PD2 no.8 survived longer than the other three because it became a driver trainer.

Route 5 was the first “one man” route (to use contemporary description!) and was initially operated by the two Panther Cubs. I lived at the village store in Littlemoss at the time and as a young boy was greatly impressed with their “luxury” compared to the PD2/3s of the 1-10 batch which had been the regular performers. Prior to the permitting of double deck one person operation, the 1966 Atlanteans were later used in a cunning scheme where the top decks were closed off by way of a wooden panel at the bottom of the stairs making a single decker for legal purposes – the panel being easily removable to return the bus to its full capacity. Route 5 needed two vehicles for its regular timetable, which would have made it the ideal choice for the conversion.

Another feature of the route which I recall is that for several weeks prior to their withdrawal in December 1966 the last two utility Guys, 72 and 74, were the regular all day performers in place of the usual PD2s, having been “spare” buses for some time.

John Hibbert

06/03/16 – 06:37

A couple of points from the excellent Ashton article. Regarding the appearances of newer/recently overhauled buses on the 1 and 3 Circulars I was always led to believe that this was in part due to the fact that quite a number of Ashton councillors lived on the routes. This bolstered by the fact that Mr O Donnell also lived on Broadoak Road makes sense. The practice continued under Mr Griffiths tenure.

As for those 4 Bond bodied Guy Arab IVs as a lad I remember them appearing on an evening peak trip from Guide Bridge into Ashton and then right through onto the 7 route to Hazelhurst. I frequently caught them home to the top of Hazelhurst after trainspotting trips to Guide Bridge station. I cannot recall what route number they displayed. A photo of 67 on Kings Road returning to Ashton after one of these trips is attached. This was taken after the formation of SELNEC as it has lost the coat of arms.

I also have vivid memories of the Crossley re-bodied Austerity Arabs on the 7 running past our house with bonnet side panels resting on the nearside wings for extra cooling in summer.This seems to contradict the idea of them being used on the 14 because they ran cooler than the Leylands. I was once told that the Leylands struggled up out of Brookbottom if they had to stop halfway up. This was because of the difficulty of starting in 1st gear and making the change to 2nd on the hill without losing momentum.

A final memory is that no. 5 out of the LTC batch of Leylands was converted to a run around/tow wagon and spent much of its time in the bus station with compressed air bottles to rescue ailing Atlanteans suffering with air system problems.

Steve Hyde

07/03/16 – 06:15

A new entry in the comments area prompts a new study of previous ones! Dave Ward and Phil Blinkhorn wondered a while back about a Manager’s insistence that his newest buses should be on the route passing his house (or not, as the case may be!)

There was a vaguely similar situation in Southampton a few years back, involving a bus stop and a disabled parking bay. One of the Transport Department’s Inspectors lived at the house in question, and he wanted a stop outside his house, for ease of getting to and from work. His wife had what was then an orange badge, and there was no parking facility at the property. The lady went out to work, and used the car to go to and from her work, so the bay was vacant during the day, when the buses were running, but occupied in the evening, when they were not.

In those days, rules on the issue of parking bays, and who was allowed to use them was far more ‘regulated’ than it is now. It might seem strange, but this arrangement worked. It shouldn’t have of course but that’s like the bumble bee and the laws of physics and aerodynamics. Theoretically, the bee can’t fly but nobody’s told it, so it does!

Pete Davies

19/04/16 – 06:20

I drove buses from Ashton depot for over 10 yrs, the bus pictured in SELNEC colours number 5465 on the hurst circular route had quite a chequered history. It constantly had braking issues when carrying heavy loads down hill. As I was a union rep, eventually we refused to drive it and it was black listed. Many years later and living in N. Wales a driver with GMT was suing them after getting injured when the brakes failed on 5465 and wanted me to give evidence for him.

Larry Smith

The First PTEs – The Beginning of the End for the Corporation Bus – SELNEC – Introduction

For almost 80 years the Corporation Bus was a fixture in many cities, towns and even rural areas around the United Kingdom. A low cost social transport service providing for many councils a nett income generator, the colour schemes and coats of arms carried were as much an identifier of the locale as the buildings and infrastructure they passed and used every day. The vehicles were often the objects of civic pride and, certainly, rivalry – sometimes friendly, sometimes not – between General Managers and Engineers in adjoining areas.

Some Corporations were loyal to a chassis builder and a body builder, often for many years. Others spread their custom, sometimes to deal with specific operational needs where a favoured builder couldn’t meet these from its catalogue, sometimes to ensure continuity of supply in an industry where vehicle builders came and went and sometimes because General Managers were true innovators and experimenters such as George Hilditch and Edgley Cox.

I was born and brought up in the conurbation that became Greater Manchester. The area was rich in operators and even the relatively small town of Ashton under Lyne where I spent the first nine years of my life, had regular services provided by no fewer than six Corporations, two BET operators, one Joint Committee and its roads also hosted a number of coaches passing through on services where the operators had no licence to pick up or drop off in the Borough. The colour schemes alone were enough to attract the attention of a four year old. Ashton had its patriotic dark blue, white and red. Stockport’s smart red and off white was almost duplicated by North Western’ s red and off white. Manchester’s red and cream was almost as predominant as Ashton’s blue, mainly on trolleybuses with just the long distance number 6 joint service between Manchester and Glossop being motor bus operated.

The dark green, cream and silver of what everyone called the “Joint Board”, though the word “Joint” never appeared in the official title of what was originally the Stalybridge, Hyde, Mossley and Dukinfield Tramways and Electricity Board – later to have the word “Tramways” replaced by “Transport” – contrasted with the maroon and white of Oldham and the blue and cream streamlined Rochdale scheme whilst, from over the hills in Yorkshire, the Borough was treated to the red and cream of Yorkshire Traction and the cream with a dash of blue from Sheffield.

The sense of permanence generated by these operators, particularly the local Corporations, was solid by the time I started school in 1952 but change was not long in coming. Just 26 months after my starting school a new General Manager arrived at Ashton and swept away the patriotic scheme with a peacock blue and cream design. SHMD shortly afterwards changed their scheme to an overall lighter green with scant cream relief and Manchester, Rochdale, North Western and, finally, Oldham all succumbed to the needs of the hot spray paint booth and simplified, and in most cases, downgraded their schemes. Only Stockport, to where we had moved in 1956, maintained its traditional scheme – the only nod to modernity being the replacement of the light brown lining out with black.

As the private car, diesel prices, wages, changes in entertainment, not to mention the cost of new buses impacted the industry as the 1950s gave way to the seeming new era of the 1960s, many Corporations started to find their bus operations were becoming less profitable – though by no means something to be given up.

National Government thought otherwise and the 1968 Transport Act established five Passenger Transport Executives in Glasgow, Tyneside, Merseyside, West Midlands and the largest, SELNEC PTE, which stood for South East Lancashire and North East Cheshire Passenger Transport Executive, based on Manchester.

There are many arguments for and against the formation of the PTEs. I’ve no intention of examining them here. Suffice to say that what came into effect between October 1 1968 and June 1 1973 was the beginning of the end for the Corporation bus in all but a few municipalities in the United Kingdom – and the few that are left are “arms length” organisations after the disastrous interference of Nicholas Ridley’s bus deregulation under Thatcher in 1986 – proving both major parties are more interested in dogma than reality when it comes to transport.

Whilst between before 1968 few people would have given more than a passing glance to the buses on their streets, the advent of the PTEs generated quite a reaction in terms of loss of local identity – and this still pertains to some extent with today’s monolithic operators regularly inventing logos or variations on their national schemes to engender local loyalty, with varying degrees of success.

One area worthy of looking at is what happened to some of the vehicles involved, many of which faced shortened lives, radically altered colour schemes and, in the run up to, and often for a good while after vesting day, a reduction in maintenance, running in partial colour schemes and transfer from the depots of original owners to those in far flung parts of their new operator.

Roger Cox recorded this period in parts of the SELNEC area in which I lived and went to school. The following photographs illustrate not only the period but some of the schemes that were lost, the standard of vehicle maintenance and the effect of the new sunglow orange and cream on a number of very familiar types.

Copy by Phil Blinkhorn – Photographs by Roger Cox

08/2013

 Click here to view Part One – Ashton under Lyne

Stockport Corporation – Leyland Titan – KJA 871F – 71/5871


Copyright Ken Jones

Stockport Corporation
1968
Leyland Titan PD3/14
East Lancs H38/32R

KJA 871F is a Leyland Titan PD3/14 with East Lancs H38/32R body, new to Stockport Corporation as their no. 71 in February 1968. It is preserved at The Manchester Museum of Transport in Boyle Street, Cheetham Hill. Greater Manchester. The museum is next to an operational bus garage.
It is photographed on 24/7/10 returning to the museum on a shuttle service from Heaton Park, during a running day linking the museum and the tram system at Heaton Park. It is preserved in SELNEC livery.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

26/03/13 – 16:17

Stockport’s second attempt at something “new fangled”!!
After years of almost dedicated conservatism Stockport dipped their toe into the second half of the twentieth century with this, the first of their first batch of 30 foot long double deckers. Apart from the length, nothing else changed. Rear open platform, East Lancs bodies with wind down windows and draught/drip strips.
Still a magnificent vehicle and one of the few body styles to really look good in SELNEC orange.
As a matter of interest, Stockport’s first attempt at modernity was the inclusion of translucent roof centres from 1964 onwards.

Phil Blinkhorn

26/03/13 – 17:17

…..but they did try tin fronts on the 1958 Crossley bodies – and finally went mad and had a batch of forward entrance PD3s…..

David Oldfield

27/03/13 – 06:55

The livery is an abomination compared with that which it bore before the advent of SELNEC and the blinds are totally unsuited to the apertures but as an example of the way that presentational standards dropped during the ’70’s it is perfect.
Actually, Stockport’s first attempt at modernity was the trolleybuses of 1913 but perhaps that experience persuaded the Transport Dept to draw in it’s horns thereafter though they did order several TD4c’s as tramway replacements …. adventurous by their standards!
Truth is that conservatism paid for Stockport. They got a standardized fleet of reliable vehicles and ran a profitable organization even though most of their vehicles were two man operated and they had the advantage of lower dwell times than omo fleets. Mind you, I should have hated to have to drive a PD3 for a living!

Orla Nutting

27/03/13 – 06:56

The SELNEC orange and white has had a lot of bad press amongst enthusiasts. I think this was largely because it replaced a lot of cherished and varied municipal liveries in the area. In itself I thought it was not unattractive and in some instances was an improvement on the previous municipal scheme. I quote as an example Rochdale’s dreadfully bland all over cream with a bit of blue which was adopted for spray painting in the early 1960’s. The majestic Weymann bodied Regent V’s looked much better to me in SELNEC livery. It was really designed for rear engined buses and did generally sit uneasily on front engined double deckers particularly where an exposed radiator was used. One thing in SELNEC’s favour was that it went for something new and did not favour any of the previous liveries of any of the constituent operators. West Midlands got a watered down Birmingham livery for example with no recognition of the other three operators involved. The same applied on Tyneside with South Shields not getting a look in.

Philip Halstead

27/03/13 – 12:17

Orla has a good point about the trolleybuses, especially as they were Lloyd Kohler system of current transfer – a total dead end in the trolleybus world.
I’m not sure the tin fronts were an attempt at modernity. Leyland decided to standardise on the tin front and later St Helen’s fronts. For a period, there was a small premium for the traditional radiator. This coincided with Stockport’s tin front and St Helens front orders – so the adoption of these styles was typical of their monetary conservatism.
Philip restates a long held misunderstanding regarding the design of SELNEC’s livery. It was definitely not designed for rear engined vehicles, or even the SELNEC “Standards”, the design of which had not been finalised at the time the livery was agreed.
In 1970 I had a meeting with Tony Harrison in his office in Peter House. On the window ledge was a range of bus models, some Corgi, some Dinky, some hand built and a mix of single deckers and front and rear engined double deckers in an array of colour schemes.
Whilst I was there for another reason to be revealed in an article in due course, I asked Tony what they were for. As I found out later when he was my boss, he wasn’t the most patient man but he told me they had been used when the livery was designed and he gave me chapter and verse on how the SELNEC Board were frustrated by what at the time was a negative public and media reaction to the scheme.
He told me that they had decided to avoid any reference to any of the constituent Transport Departments’ colours and had looked to have designed a layout between the orange and warm white which would look balanced on any vehicle even when side advertising was applied.
Stuart Brown in “Greater Manchester Buses” states correctly that the orange band above the lower deck windows was not to be more than 12 inches deep and the white on the between decks panel was to be fixed at 26 inches.
This is where the misapprehension regarding the scheme being designed for rear engined vehicles arises. Whilst the “Standard” design hadn’t been finalised when the dimensions of the scheme were worked out, the dimensions were exactly those of the Northern Counties “Standard” but not of the Park Royal version, which had a deeper between decks band.
At the time they had expected to keep rear entrance double deckers until the end of the 1970s, given the slow delivery rate from the Leyland group so needed a scheme to cover all types. The initial scheme the designers came up with was the Mancunian scheme with the white replaced by orange and the red by white. There was a model of a rear entrance bus in Tony’s office in that scheme and it look terrible, particularly around the rear nearside, though it looked a little better on a rear engined model. It was quickly rejected.
Once real vehicles were painted two things became apparent. With certain types, keeping to the dimensions made some bodies look ungainly. The difference in depth of the orange below the upper deck window line due to window depth, to maintain the 26 inches between decks white dimension, gave the impression of random application when different bodies were seen together.
Secondly, after a short period of time, different paint shops decided to vary the application to suit certain body styles. The Northern Division was the worst offender. Bury’s MCW bodied Atlanteans were painted almost correctly but almost identical Bolton versions had different paint dimensions and Bolton’s East Lancs bodied Atlanteans had different versions almost batch by batch. Bolton’s MCW front entrance PD3s had a unique version of the Orion scheme with virtually no orange under the windows making the between decks white very wide.
What had been intended as a non-partisan, unifying scheme rapidly descended into something resembling a visual disaster.

Phil Blinkhorn

27/03/13 – 12:18

Although Stockport had a conservative vehicle-buying policy and never operated a rear-engined double-decker, a batch of Bristol VRs was being built for them at the time of SELNEC’s formation but a fire at the factory destroyed them all before delivery.
This must have been the East Lancs factory in Blackburn. Someone will know more! There is a story that at least one of the chassis ended up in New Zealand.

Geoff Kerr

27/03/13 – 16:47

The fire was at the East Lancs Blackburn factory. The full story will appear on this Forum shortly. One VRT chassis was certainly saved in complete form and ended up in Woollagong Australia with a locally built body. It’s been stated that of the rest, those that could be salvaged were broken for spares.
There is a story that Daw Bank would not have received the vehicles and that they would have been sent to Leigh where they would have been used to introduce OMO service, their lower height would have allowed them to be stabled in the old Corporation depot.

Phil Blinkhorn

28/03/13 – 06:49

Philip H mentions South Shields not getting a look in with the new T&W PTE livery, Sunderland were in the same boat. T&W decided that their livery would be based on the yellow of Newcastle Corporation, they went through several different permutations before they eventually settled for something not a million miles from where they started. The change would have been obvious to anyone living in South Shields or Sunderland, whereas most people in the Newcastle area would hardly be aware that the livery had changed.

Ronnie Hoye

28/03/13 – 06:49

In a recent edition of ‘Classic Bus’ there was a brave attempt by Mike Eyre based on Southampton buses to interpret what the VR’s would have looked like had they made it to Stockport including mock ‘J’ registrations in the JA series. Unfortunately I think the answer is ‘ugly’ especially with the treatment of the radiator grills and had they gone to Leigh I should not have wept.

Orla Nutting

28/03/13 – 07:57

Orla, I haven’t seen the Mike Eyre attempt but I can say two things with certainty based on seeing the first of the batch complete and painted. The vehicles would have looked very much like any other East Lancs rear engine design, similar to the last Bury Atlanteans and Fleetlines plus radiator grilles a la the delivery of VRs to Sheffield in 1972.
As Mike’s attempt was based on Southampton, I assume you mean the livery layout. Of course the bus was painted in full SELNEC colours but no logo or legal lettering had been applied when I saw it so the veracity of the Leigh story cannot be confirmed. The front indicator layout was standard SELNEC with a number indicator in the usual SELNEC nearside position.
My East Lancs’ contact promised to look out the correspondence with Stockport regarding livery for my subsequent visit. My contact said he seemed to remember they had been asked to quote for both the traditional Stockport layout and a revised layout based on that supplied on the Leopards. There seems to have been a division of opinion in the Stockport Transport Committee regarding the Leopard scheme. He did comment that the traditional layout cost a few pounds more per bus due to the extra masking and lining out.
Of course my subsequent visit never materialised as the fire intervened, destroyed their records and lost me an order for SELNEC!

Phil Blinkhorn

29/03/13 – 06:50

The first attempts at modernising the look of the early rear engined double deckers fell broadly into two camps: the peak and angle treatment (Liverpool and Bolton) and the curves (e.g. most Alexanders, plus other builders using Alexander features). Unfortunately by 1970 the standard offering from East Lancs had a foot in each camp, with a peaked dome above a curved windscreen, which always jarred with me. This is the version which Mike Eyre used as the basis for his image. The curved windscreen was not obligatory, however – the Sheffield VRs didn’t have it, and neither did the Fleetlines ordered by Bury and delivered to SELNEC. As for the grill on the Sheffield VRs, the attempt to hide it rather than make a feature of it was not a clever idea, although I’m sure it must have saved a few quid!

Peter Williamson

29/03/13 – 08:54

Peter, this is the body style used on the “Stockport” VRs: www.sct61.org.uk/ 
Move the staircase forward to the standard front entrance position and add the grille and you have the bus as I saw it.

Phil Blinkhorn

29/03/13 – 08:55

The Sheffield East Lancs bodied VRs were withdrawn by the PTE as non-standard in the late seventies. They went on to have long lives with various NBC companies notably Crosville and Hastings & District. In late 1974 one was on loan as a demonstrator to West Yorkshire PTE. I saw it working the Bradford-Halifax service. New VRs did not figure on WYPTE orders but its successor Yorkshire Rider ran many after they absorbed West Yorkshire Road Car in 1990.
As well as Sheffield Merseyside PTE also ran some East Lancs bodied VRs

Chris Hough

31/03/13 – 07:42

The Sheffield VR loaned to West Yorkshire PTE in 1975 was fleet number 275. It was a swap with WYPTE AN68 6003 which was fitted with Leyland G3 automatic gearbox control which SYPTE wished to try. Engineers from Dennis had a look at the drive train of the VR whilst it was at Halifax when they were designing the Dominator (ie how NOT to design a drive train!)

Ian Wild

SELNEC PTE – Daimler CVG6 – TRJ 128 – 4017

SELNEC PTE - Daimler CVG6 - TRJ 128 - 4017

SELNEC PTE
1962
Daimler CVG6
Metro-Cammell H37/28R (Orion)

During the Selnec era, quite a number of ex-Salford buses were transferred to the former Manchester Corporation Depot at Queens Road. Most of these were Leyland Atlanteans and PD2’s, which would be quite at home among the ex-Manchester Leylands based here, although I wondered what the Queens Road crews made of the forward entrances on the PD2’s.
4017 (ex-Salford 128) was one of a handful of CVG6’s which moved from Salford to Queens Road. The latter depot had been home to Manchester’s only manual gearbox Daimlers, 4650 – 4, and occasionally elderly CVG6’s had spent their last days at Queens Road Depot on peak hour workings. However Queens Road was a firmly Leyland Depot, and I sometimes wonder how many drivers here were trained to use the preselector gearbox.
The bus is seen at Mills Hill Bridge, which had traditionally been the boundary between the operating areas of Manchester and Oldham Corporations. It was the half way point on service 59 (Manchester – Middleton – Oldham – Shaw) which was normally operated by 6 buses from each fleet. However on Sunday Mornings in pre Selnec times, the service was operated in two halves with passengers changing buses at Mills Hill Bridge. Both operators ran short workings to this point, Oldham as service 3 and Manchester as 59X.
Note the very small print on the standard Selnec destination blind. Obviously its a matter of opinion, but I thought the “Orion” body suited the Selnec livery quite well.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

16/01/14 – 06:23

The manual CCG6 Daimlers made sweet music after the fashion of Guy Arabs – whose gearbox they shared – but were universally loathed by both Salford and Manchester drivers. [Apparently the Daimler installation worked less well than Guy’s own.] You’re not the only one, Don, who thinks an Orion can look good with the correct livery.

David Oldfield

16/01/14 – 06:24

What an interesting view! Thanks for posting, Don. Unlike most of the new PTE operations, which simply extended the livery of the biggest constituent with little or no variation, SELNEC went for a completely new livery. Some liked it, some were appalled, but they couldn’t ignore it. More orange below the lower deck windows may have helped to placate some observers – but it might have annoyed some of them even more!

Pete Davies

16/01/14 – 06:25

Would the (ex-)Salford CVGs have had air or spring-operated pre-selector gears? And why the split in the Sunday am service? a perception for the need for differing frequencies from each municipality perhaps?? . . . but with practices like that – and Oldham giving their half of the Sunday morning shorts a different number altogether – is it any wonder passengers went elsewhere?
Now, I’ve never driven a pre-selector: does it require “training” or can it be picked up “on the job”? are there aspects of driving manual/clash/crash/synchro/whatever that need to be put aside when driving a pre-selector? I must admit that I’ve felt wary of going near a pre-selector ever since I read about that nasty “kick-back” habit of spring-change pre-selectors . . . then again, I’ve enough trouble with throttle/clutch/shift without the added complication of shift/throttle/change (am I right there?).

Philip Rushworth

16/01/14 – 08:42

As an “amateur” with about twenty years experience of using my PSV (PCV) for various things – in fact most types of operation – I would say that type training is an essential but often overlooked element of the job. In an ideal world, that includes the difference between Synchro Manual, Crash Manual, Semi Automatic and Pre Select gear change.

David Oldfield

16/01/14 – 09:02

The Orion bodied vehicles probably came out best of all with the SELNEC livery, primarily because as there were more of this style of body than any other across the fleets absorbed into SELNEC, the final livery from a number of options was actually designed around drawings and hand made models of the body style (don’t forget this was before computer graphics) and the dimensions and spacings of the colours were then adopted fleet wide to the benefit of a few other body styles and the detriment of many. The orange was, however, distinctive and, to be controversial, not dull as it appeared to be in the shades and quantities chosen for Cardiff or Glasgow.
The photo highlights a number of issues. It would have been rare for a Salford or Manchester vehicle to be out on service for long with damage as seen on the radiator housing. The blind was a lash up job and, as there doesn’t seem to be any snow around, it looks as if the bus hasn’t been through the washer for some days. These were some of the problems faced by the new entity for some time after set up as old loyalties were, as one inspector said to me, smashed and blown to the four winds and some depots had almost a rebellious attitude to the new organisation. In addition there was a range of problems when transferring vehicles from depot to depot such as blind sizes. unfamiliar position of bells on rear entrance double deckers, position of fuel fillers and different interior light bulbs and of course different gear boxes, to name a few. The appearance of many vehicles rapidly deteriorated. Those left in their original schemes with the appropriate divisional motifs added (the Central blue S flash on Manchester’s red or Salford’s green looking particularly odd) were generally left without attention to dints and paint deterioration until full repaint, some waiting two or three years for attention or for withdrawal. All this added to the debate about the orange, which was by no means confined to the enthusiast fraternity, gave the management plenty to cope wit. Much had settled by 1973, then there was another upheaval with the advent of Greater Manchester Transport.

Phil Blinkhorn

16/01/14 – 11:02

…..but as a Sheffielder who spent student and early working days in SELNEC/GMT land, Sunglow Orange and White were infinitely superior to SYPTE Coffee and Cream. Darkening the coffee didn’t improve it. Only adding the red – just before wiping it away with Mainline Yellow and Red – made it just about acceptable. If only they HAD kept Sheffield Cream and Blue – but the better Manchester/SELNEC alternative would have been Salford Green and Cream – kept up to the latter day standards of Salford. […..but then it would have been some sort of green and cream from Merseyside, through Manchester to West Yorkshire!]

David Oldfield

16/01/14 – 11:03

I fully agree with the SELNEC livery looking good on the Orion. The original orange, sunglow I think it was called, was a very intense yellowish shade which looked especially attractive when freshly applied. However, it was prone to fading so that when the fleet was rebranded it was replaced with a darker, redder version. The difference can be seen quite well on these ex SHMD Daimlers: www.flickr.com/photos/  The off-white originally used was also replaced by brilliant white at some stage. I personally preferred the former combination but as livery is often a controversial subject that is a matter of opinion. The PTE liveries are often maligned but some of them worked well and looked bright and refreshing on the right vehicles at the right time. I always liked the original WYPTE “Metro” livery with the stripe above the cab on the Roe bodied Atlanteans but on older vehicles it looked wrong. Merseyside used the same bluish Verona green which I thought looked very smart combined with jonquil yellow (a shade similar to the primrose used by East Yorkshire), especially on their Panthers. And, the final version of the Tyne and Wear livery with white rather than cream and royal blue lining has always been a personal favourite, especially on the Metropolitans. However, I would never deny that it was also something of a tragedy that magnificent liveries such as those at Halifax, Southport or South Shields were lost, and like the NBC liveries of the day, those of the PTEs were not helped by the loss of local pride that came with these huge, impersonal organisations.

Mike Morton

16/01/14 – 14:07

The question of appearance is highly subjective, but I remain an unapologetic loather of the Selnec ‘livery’ which looked particularly abhorrent when applied to front engined buses. The painting of the bonnet in orange, completely out of sympathy with the other lines of the scheme, made it look as absurdly conspicuous as a pantomime pirate’s eye patch. I have always disliked the Orion body, too. The straight taper from skirt panels to roofline, accentuated by the shallow upper saloon windows, gave the thing a gawky, ungainly, pin headed profile, which the cheap looking dome and glazing method merely compounded. Orange is a very tricky colour to adopt and maintain, as my time in Halifax revealed. HPTD buses emerging from the bodyshop with newly painted replacement lower panels resembled a patchwork quilt. Certainly, the Selnec scheme shows up body damage like a beacon. Salford would never have left the radiator cowl in that state, but even if it had, the missing slat would not have leapt so readily to the eye in that superb dark green livery. I will now don my hard hat in readiness for the onslaught from Selnec and Orion aficionados.

Roger Cox

17/01/14 – 08:25

I fully agree with Roger Cox regarding the SELNEC orange and white colour scheme it was one that was only ever going to look even reasonable when just out of the paint shop, considering the number of attractive colour schemes SELNEC inherited, MCTD’s being one of the least attractive, there were reasons to expect so much better. The Orion body was also an unattractive bus as it was unbalanced with the unequal depth windows and the inward taper from skirt to roof making it look very narrow and slab sided which looked even worse on a Regent V with a full front, the nasty tinny domes only made matters worse. Having said that if nobody had bought them how long would the design have lasted let alone been copied by Park Royal who managed to make a bad design even worse.

Diesel Dave

17/01/14 – 08:26

The livery certainly accentuates the Salford style of winding handles attached to a cumbersome-looking frame, designed to be reached without the need for the guard (sic)to climb on the radiator.

Geoff Kerr

17/01/14 – 09:19

The “tinny” domes were actually fibreglass with the outside smoothed and the inside almost always left rough so the passengers could view the fibres through the paint. They were prone to loads of condensation and vibration and used to crack to a greater or lesser extent. Manchester had many delivered with v shaped push window vents in the two front windows which helped the frontal appearance but they were removed and later orders had them omitted as, if the vents became stiff to move, the efforts of the passengers or guard to open or close them led to the whole window flexing and there were instances of major cracking and windows falling out as a result.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/01/14 – 17:53

Great to see a Middleton run featured and thanks Don for posting. Re the 3 and 59: the 3 (Oldham Corp) was Rushcroft to Mills Hill only. In 1968/9 every journey was extended to Middleton. All Sunday morning 59 runs were numbered 59x and ran only to Mills Hill until 11am, then through to Shaw. There were few passengers. Middleton had interesting routes and short workings, mostly forgotten now. Selnec livery? Yuk! Lots preferred the original liveries. These Daimlers were stunning when new teaming along the Crescent and better still if all the lights from Adelphi to Blackfriars were green.

Mike Franks

18/01/14 – 07:45

Mike, in my day as a teenager, the longer it took from Adelphi to Blackfriars the better, especially on a weekday afternoon in term time – go figure!

Phil Blinkhorn

18/01/14 – 07:46

To answer one of Philip’s questions, I’m pretty sure that all Salford CVG6s had spring-operated gearchanges. The spring operation went with vacuum brakes, whereas air operation went with air brakes. Salford stuck with vacuum brakes as long as possible, buying PD2/40s when their allegiance changed to Leyland. I would imagine their CCG6s were vacuum braked too, whereas Manchester’s were definitely air-braked.
Talking of which (David), I didn’t know the Guy gearbox behaved differently in these than in its native Arab. I wonder if it was perhaps in the wrong place. Guy always put it amidships, so if Daimler put it at the front, it would need a different linkage. Whilst it is very nearly true that they were universally loathed, there was one driver who loved them – a certain Ron Barton, whose book “Manchester Buses from the Platform” has just been published. I haven’t read it, but I should be rather surprised if he doesn’t mention the CCG6s.

Peter Williamson

19/01/14 – 08:21

There was nothing wrong with the Guy gearbox. The constant mesh box was always disliked in fleets with a preponderance of preselective, semi auto or even synchromesh transmissions. The constant mesh gearbox required a degree of familiarity and skill for clean changes that drivers in mixed fleets did not (or could not be bothered to) acquire. The staff in neighbouring Tilling or BET fleets would have wondered what all the fuss was about.

Roger Cox

19/01/14 – 09:41

I like the way this is wandering into the realms of the merits or otherwise of different gearbox arrangements!
In mid career, my duties with Southampton City Council began to involve what had been the Transport Department (by 1990 well into the deregulation era) and I encountered someone who was about to retire from that undertaking. He was telling me one day that he had started work with Provincial. All crash gearboxes. His instructor had mentioned – vaguely – double declutching, and had dismissed the idea as being for amateurs. “Listen to the engine, boy, and you can go straight through!” How would today’s drivers manage???

Pete Davies

19/06/17 – 07:14

As a former employee based at the Weaste Garage. The transfer of Salford vehicles to Manchester Queens Road due to the interest being shown by the ‘Ministry’ in the ‘presentation’ of Manchester vehicles.
To placate the ‘Ministry’ overnight Salford vehicles in good order were transferred to Queens Road and conversely Queen Road relics arrived at Weaste and Frederick Rd. To say the least engineering at the former Salford undertaking were not the least happy with the transfer.

Robert Walsh

20/06/17 – 07:19

Could someone confirm that Salford Daimlers 111-146 had spring operated gearboxes and vacuum brakes?

David Call

21/06/17 – 07:19

Selnec livery. As a student in Manchester in the early 1970’s I was recruited by SELNEC to assist with an evening survey in Wythenshawe. Being a loyal employee, I equipped myself with a felt tip pen in Selnec’s house colour, orange, to complete my survey forms. I rapidly discovered that the neon street lighting in Wythenshawe made the form itself orange which meant that it was impossible to see whether anything had been written.

Peter Cook

21/06/17 – 07:20

My early comments (16.01.14) about gearbox set-up were purely hearsay on my part. Having subsequently driven a “crash” Guy, I would say that (once one has learned to drive it properly) it was one of the sweetest gear-changes I have come across.

David Oldfield