Tag: Sheffield Corporation

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD3 – 4462 WE – 462


Copyright ‘unknown’ if you know please get in touch

Sheffield Corporation
1959
Leyland PD3/1
Roe H39/30R

This was one of the first 30ft long double deckers for Sheffield and was one of a batch of 30 similar buses. In a typically perverse way these buses, all for the A fleet, were numbered 461-476 and 901-914. Logic suggests they should have been 901-930 but gap filling seemed to be a Sheffield speciality. Following the closure of Northern Coachbuilders and the body building facility at Leyland Motors in the early 1950s, Sheffield dual sourced bodywork for their new double deck deliveries from Weymann and Roe until Alexander and Park Royal came into favour. The Roe body in this 30ft rear entrance form and with the elegant Sheffield livery was a design classic. I wonder if anyone can explain why Roe bodies for Sheffield were painted in this style whilst those from other bodybuilders had the more conventional three blue bands. 462 was new in March 1959 and is seen outside the Roe factory premises prior to delivery. Similar vehicle 904 is preserved.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

30/03/11 – 10:00

Before becoming the 42/53 route with Atlanteans, the 38 was primarily and AEC route. For a short while, in the mid sixties, the 901 – 914 suddenly replaced AECs overnight. [It was years before I realised that there were proportionally more Leylands in the fleet.] There must have been a reason, but I never discovered what it was.
I was, and remain, an AEC man and was most displeased. Old age and experience have placed Leyland as a much loved second – but these vehicles had the mitigating feature of those beautiful Roe bodies. The 38 was East Bank, the 461 – 476 were from another garage and I rarely came upon them except “in town”. …..and I don’t know why Roe, and certain Leyland bodies, had their own special livery either.

David Oldfield

30/03/11 – 14:38

What a great photograph Ian and what a lot of memories it evokes from when we both lived in Sheffield and travelled up Greystones Road on the “74” between our respective homes. I guess the 74 was an unusual route for Sheffield in that it didn’t cross the city but meandered around the southern suburbs. Like you in one of your earlier comments I remember the winters in Sheffield with snow on the ground but the buses kept running, always got us to school. How things change!

Stan Zapiec

31/03/11 – 16:00

I agree wholeheartedly with Ian and David that the proportions and original livery of the PD3/Roe produced one of the finest looking buses to grace the Sheffield fleet. On the question of livery style, Keith Beeden has stated that in the case of the original batch of PD2/Roe 386-394, the Roe design did not offer an easy adoption of the STD cream and azure blue with three bands and that it was agreed that the livery should be of the ‘simplified style’ quite similar to the Farington scheme as seen on the all Leyland PD2s of 1949. This resulted from the difficulty at the time of accommodating the standard Sheffield destination display which of course with early Roe deliveries was of a side by side style. Presumably, this livery was considered appropriate for all future Roe deliveries despite the standard display being accommodated in due course with effect from the Regent 3’s of the 168 series. We know of course that subsequently, many Roes were repainted in ‘standard’ livery but to my mind, it was nowhere near as elegant. My personal opinion is that in painting the ‘bars’ black between the destination display in the early 60’s, disfigured the look of Sheffield buses in one fell swoop although I believe the general manager of the day also reinstated the cream roof for which credit is due. I cite the present livery scheme of preserved 904 as an example of ‘disfigurement’ but as I said, it is purely my opinion and others will no doubt like it.
Whilst we are on the subject, does anyone remember that AEC/Regent No. 8, FWJ 808, also wore a version of the Farington livery in the late 40s or early 50s.

John Darwent

01/04/11 – 07:28

Sheffield 904 as preserved carries the later cream with bands livery and looks superb. A slightly earlier Roe bodied Titan PD2 II56 is also preserved and wears the blue window livery. This is a high backed seat bus used on C fleet long distance services.
As well as 904 in the final livery with cream bands Leyland Titan PD2-Roe 1156 3156WE of 1058 is also preserved and carries the livery with blue window surrounds on both decks.

Chris Hough

01/05/11 – 07:48

In reply to John and Ian, I can add further information to the Roe style of livery applied to Sheffield double deck buses.
The query about AEC Regent No.8 actually is the start of the case in question. Leyland Motors Ltd. delivered a large fleet of PD2/1 chassis with the new Farington body design. The former lower waistrail feature was eliminated, as was other external beading. Leyland advised Sheffield T.D. to the effect that it would be difficult to apply the usual cream livery with three blue bands. Possibly a suggestion that extra cost would ensue if the standard livery was still required, led to Sheffield looking to simplify the painting style.
Regent FWJ 808 was chosen to explore the possibilities and was out shopped in a bland style of all over cream with blue window surrounds. This eliminated the blue bands but the overall image was poor. A slight improvement, that included a little more blue, led to the adoption of the new style for all the Farington PD2’s. A similar situation arose with the Roe bodies, where the patented waistrail did not adapt to the three blue bands style and also lack of upper beading. Therefore, it was deemed expedient to apply a similar livery to the Farington style.
I hope that this will clarify matters.

Keith Beeden

23/03/13 – 07:56

I believe the reasoning behind the different paint schemes in use on Sheffield buses was purely financial. Some bodies had beading in different places to others and thus the joint between different colours were easier to apply on some rather than others. The placing of masking would add extra cost which on a big batch of vehicles could amount to quite an amount of money which some authorities would be averse to spending on buses!! The characteristic Roe waistline bulge is one awkward bodybuilders addition in question.

Brian Lamb

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan – 4461 WE – 461


Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1959
Leyland Titan PD3/1
Roe H39/30R

An earlier Sheffield posting showed sister bus 462 when brand new outside the Roe factory. Here is 461 towards the end of its life on 13th July 1974 passing the Three Merry Lads pub returning from an occasional extension of the 51 service to Wyming Brook. By now it has the standard three blue band livery and the final version of the fleetname used prior to the formation of South Yorkshire PTE. It still looks smart and elegant despite its fifteen years in service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

09/02/12 – 05:59

Only possible improvement would be for it to be a successor 1325 – 1349 Regent V. I came across the 901… batch rather than these, but it is strange how memory plays tricks. I had a Grandmother, an uncle, aunt and cousins living at Lodge Moor and never remember riding on any of these to visit them.
Christmas was always spent with said Grandmother (a superb cook) and the men (Dad and uncles) would all repair to the Three Merry Lads until time to return for Christmas Dinner!
Even before the 1974 Government reorganisation which expanded Sheffield greatly, this was part of the City of Sheffield but well out in the countryside. “Oh my beloved homeland!” Despite this, it is obviously an “A” fleet route – otherwise it would read “Sheffield” rather than “City”.

Just realised that 13 July 1974 would put it under SYPTE ownership (from April 1974).

David Oldfield

17/02/12 – 08:03

You probably don’t remember travelling to Lodge Moor on a PD3 because only the two daily journeys which extended to Wyming Brook (for a few schoolchildren, I think) were crew-operated, because of the reversal needed there. The regular service was operated by AEC Swifts from OMO conversion in 1969, and later by Atlanteans. The extension was finally withdrawn around 18 months ago.

Phil Drake

21/02/12 – 16:51

I seem to remember similar buses in the 900 number series replacing the trams on Abbey Lane. I travelled from there to Pitsmoor to school at De La Salle college. If memory serves routes 61/63 were Shirecliffe – Beauchief/Woodseats Circular, I can’t remember which was which. It meant a walk from Burngreave to Scott Rd where school was but it meant that I Passed Burngreave Convent school which was full of girls so there is always a silver lining! These buses seemed to be a great improvement over the trams that they replaced and of course the bus service was very reliable. As the route crossed the city centre it was possible to get off on the way home and sample the delights on offer!
We had passes which allowed free travel to and from school which had to be shown to the conductor on the way in and out of the city, even if the crew didn’t change.
Happy days!

Stan Zapiec

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – KWA 545 – 545


Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1947
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

This is an all Leyland (H30/26R) PD2/1 of the first batch of 20 delivered to Sheffield in October 1947. These were withdrawn between 1963 and 1965 but then nine of them were reinstated and lasted until 1966. In May 1966 The Leeds and District Transport News came to Sheffield in Leeds 380, another PD2/1 with an early Farington style Leyland body and the two buses were used on a tour of Sheffield routes. I joined the tour in Sheffield and I still remember how the Sheffield bus left the Leeds vehicle standing on some of the Sheffield hills that were encountered. I always had a soft spot for these reinstated buses and 545 looks a fine sight at nearly 19 years old climbing Greystones Road on the South Western side of the City. In Sheffield in those days 18/19 year old buses were something of a rarity. The bus looks to have been ‘bulled up’ by the Leadmill Road Depotfor the occasion but still reflects the high standard maintained by Sheffield City Transport.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

Yes, Ian, they were long lived – 13 being the average age before withdrawal of STD buses. These were exceptionally long lived – even more so those which had a second life as driver trainers in all over blue. [But do I remember trainers being grey before that?]
I never rode “in service” on these but did the swimming run from Greenhill to Heeley Baths and games run from King Edward’s at Broomhill to either Trap Lane (Bents Green) or Castle Dyke (Ringinglow).

Superb picture by the way.

David Oldfield

NNW 380 became number 13 in the LCT Driving School, and when I applied for a job as a “direct” driver I took my test in it – at 5.00 pm in the Leeds City Centre rush hour. It behaved like a dream and after a couple of miles, at Tommy Wass in Dewsbury Road, the Senior Instructor said “Yes OK, straight back to Swinegate then.” I was enjoying the vehicle very much and said so – Mr. Albert Bradley, a gentleman if ever there was one, said “Oh, OK then – carry on round the Ring Road and through Belle Isle and Hunslet first.” It comes as no surprise to me that the Sheffield vehicle did better on the hills. I am not an engineer but it was common knowledge that LCT engines were “cut down” to save fuel. I’m sure this was a much misguided policy, as it undoubtedly resulted in ferocious, wicked and expensive vehicle abuse from a goodly proportion of disinterested drivers who were never brought to book – drivers who would boast of “being a fast man” and “I never come off late” etc etc – a reprehensible attitude, and one which allowed (and still does) operators to impose totally impossible and arguably illegal running times. I mustn’t get carried away with this latter subject because I could write a book with graphic illustrations of the scandal.

Chris Youhill

Thanks for the comment David.
The only one of the 1947 PD2s that was a driver trainer in mainly blue livery with two cream bands was D2 KWA 552 although it was later repainted in standard cream and blue. (I have photos of it in both schemes). The others were turned out in the standard cream/blue livery from the outset of their spell as trainers The trainers used prior to these were the 1948 Crossley/Northern Coachbuilders deckers which were certainly in mainly blue colours.
I can recall earlier trainers in grey – wonder if this was something to do with the wartime colours? I have a photo of ex 474 HWA 384 which looks to be all over one colour (grey?) and also one of ex 340 EWA 540 which is in a dark colour with cream window surrounds. Other than these I don’t have any evidence of grey liveried trainers. Does this help?

Ian Wild

Did remember the Crossley/NCBs but also wondered whether the grey had anything to do with using up war-time paint stocks. Thanks Ian.

David Oldfield

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – PWA 258 – 158

   Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1953
Leyland PD2/12
Weymann H32/26R

Sheffield operated a number of occasional services to small villages and hamlets to the north west of the City. Ewden Valley Village lay about a mile off the main Sheffield to Stocksbridge route 57 via a Sheffield Corporation Waterworks private road and was primarily home to workers at the adjacent reservoir. Service 164 was sparse but included this Saturday morning journey taken in February 1963 with a few villagers complete with shopping leaving Weymann bodied Leyland PD2/12 at the terminus in the snow. The bus which was allocated to Herries Road Garage was one of the 1953 B fleet batch of 26 such buses originally numbered 142-167 but renumbered later in 1963 with the addition of 2000 to their fleet numbers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

24/02/11 – 08:10

Coincidence. Was just looking at 687 on the South Yorkshire site before I came here to find 158.
Ewden Valley is part of the beautiful Sheffield “Lake District” of reservoirs (and forestry) to the north of the city. Originally part of the West Riding, the area came into the city with the 1974 Local Government reorganisation.
Note the treacherous conditions with “raw” snow. At least the driver had a manual gearbox to help him cope. I drove part time for Reading Mainline in the ’90s and remember a happy Saturday morning in Reading when none of the side roads had been gritted. [I had never been skating before this…..]

David Oldfield

24/02/11 – 09:19

I worked in Sheffield during that winter. I can’t remember the buses ever stopping, but perhaps they did. I don’t think I missed a day’s work. This bus has- it seems- reversed into its terminus gritless. Presumably with a gentle bit of clutch work it will set off on that lock? Are today’s buses not gritless but gutless- these people wouldn’t have seen one for weeks? Despite the weight at the rear, does the transmission stop them getting a grip or are they just too long to control and the rear weight just makes them jack-knife?

Joe

24/02/11 – 10:11

Joe, I lived through some pretty harsh Sheffield winters in my childhood – notably 1962. Once the ploughs and gritters had been out, the buses emerged. The STD buses very rarely failed the burghers of Sheffield.
With a clutch there is far more control than any sort of automatic gives. This is one reason that all STD buses from 1951 to 1959 were manual. (The advent of “no-choice” on Atlanteans and Fleetlines put an end to this – and possibly the fact that the Atlantean killed off the last trams and was easier to convert tram drivers.)

David Oldfield

24/02/11 – 10:13

Joe – Many of us older drivers know that, in snow, you need grip, not power. The answer is to pull away and accelerate in a higher gear than usual, easy with a manual gearbox.
Also, modern buses have smaller wheels, I’m sure, so a smaller ‘footprint’ in the snow.
There may be other considerations, too, of which I can’t think offhand.

Chris Hebbron

24/02/11 – 21:33

What a handsome body was this penultimate Weymann style, before the advent of the “Orion”. I believe that this style was heavier than the Orion, and that it continued after the 1954 Orion body and was known as “Aurora”, availability continuing until the late 50s. In fact, Bournemouth`s MF2B trolleys owe much to this design. Not sure about my facts here, if anyone can clarify, but, as an enthusiast, I remember their gradual demise with some regret. They were, in my view, the most handsome of all bus bodies, and were a real “classic”, their ancestry being traceable back to the first Weymann metal bodies of 1933. A truly evocative photograph!

John Whitaker

24/02/11 – 21:58

In reply to Joe, I am pretty sure that the bus as pictured had driven in to that position, it would reverse to the right of the photo before returning to the main A616 and the City down the private road which is to the left of the picture.
The nearest bus route to my home was on a pretty steep hill and I can remember in the snow drivers would go as slow as possible at the bus stop whilst the passengers jumped on the rear platform. Rarely did the buses miss in those days. My first two winters at work were 1962 and 1963. The first I was at Rotherham, the second on the edge of Sheffield City Centre, as well as two nights a week at night school. I cannot remember missing either work or night school during those winters due to the weather. I remember the single skin upper saloon domes with ice on the inside – no saloon heaters in those days!

Ian Wild

25/02/11 – 08:38

Rochdale received the Aurora on Regent Vs until 1959 (including the famous Gardners in about 1956) and Bournemouth was receiving the Sunbeams until 1962. The Bournemouths were the same design – except they had five short bays – just as the Rotherham CVG6s, contemporary to 158, had five short bays (and were also 7’6″ wide).
The Orion is much maligned – often unfairly – but there is no doubt that this is a far better and more attractive design. Only the roof of the domes was single skinned on the Aurora. Around the front (and front side) windows was double skinned, as was the area around the rear emergency exit. All of this area was single skinned on the Orion.
As I’ve said before, the first upper deck heating on STD buses was the 1325-1349 Regent V/Roes of 1960.

David Oldfield

25/02/11 – 09:37

I can’t quite work it out on the photo, and it might be a trick of the eye with dirt/snow along the bottom, but does this body have the Weymann flair? If so, it would be quite late to have this feature.

Chris Hebbron

25/02/11 – 11:18

Yes, 158 had the Weymann flaired skirt. Also, PD2’s 668 to 687 of 1953 and 688-723 of 1954 had the flair. Straight ‘skirts’ were fitted to this body style for the Regent 3’s of 1954, nos. 178-199, 724-735 and 1154-55. Further deliveries thereafter were Orions.

John Darwent

28/02/11 – 06:59

This body design came out in 1952 or 1953. I have been aware for some time that Croft of Glasgow built similar-looking bodies, and have always assumed that they were Weymann-based – until I discovered that Croft were actually building them several years before Weymann! The one at this link must have looked incredibly modern in 1949.

Peter Williamson

02/03/11

Thanks for the Albion-Croft link, Peter W. The Croft body’s modern look is emphasized by the wonderfully thirties-looking Albion chassis–especially the radiator!

Ian Thompson

06/03/11 – 08:18

The Rochdale 1959 Regent V’s were probably the final incarnation of the Aurora design and what magnificent vehicles they were. When originally delivered in Rochdale’s majestic blue and cream streamlined livery they looked superb. The last four 319-322(TDK 319-322) had platform doors, believed to have been added to the spec so as not to be outdone by Bury Corporation whose Orion bodied PD3’s had this feature and operated on the joint routes 19 and 21T between the two towns. Compared to the Bury vehicles which I always found noisy and rough, the Rochdale Regent V’s with their semi-automatic gearboxes, were much more refined.
One of these vehicles was preserved at Sheffield Bus Museum. Is it still there? One of the 1956 Gardners is in the collection at Boyle Street, Manchester.

Philip Halstead

06/03/11 – 09:09

Yes, it’s still at Rotherham. [The museum moved!]

David Oldfield

07/03/11 – 09:27

I remember the Rochdale Regent Vs (and the preceding Daimlers with basically similar bodies) very well as I used to use the 17 service in Manchester regularly. What impressed me even more than the features Philip mentions was the interiors. They were fairly basic really, with leatherette seats and painted metal window cappings, but who would have thought that two shades of blue, together with a strangely translucent white on the ceiling, could be so restful? With those colours, the smoothness of the drive train and the soporific crooning of the transmission, a 12-minute journey on one of those was almost enough to induce an altered state of consciousness!

Peter Williamson

12/03/11 – 08:00

I agree with Peter, the Rochdale interiors were plain but very clean and fresh feeling. As a child I was a bit susceptible to travel sickness and somehow the Rochdale interiors seemed to calm my problem. It is surprising how interior features stick in ones mind from those childhood days. Manchester’s ‘standard’ bodies were very dark and oppressive inside with dark moquette seats and dark varnished woodwork. In the days of almost universal adult smoking the moquette seating seemed to soak up the stale tobacco fumes even in the lower saloon. We used to travel into Manchester from Rochdale on the 24/90 service, jointly worked by Manchester, Oldham and Rochdale corporations and I would always hope our bus would be a Rochdale vehicle.
The Oldham buses had some distinctive internal features I well remember. Hanging leather straps in the lower saloon with handles similar to horse-riding stirrups. A row of domestic style Bakelite light switches with porcelain fuse holders on the front lower saloon bulkhead above the driver’s cab window. The words ‘Oldham Corporation’ were emblazoned across the front bulkhead in gold lettering – civic pride still existed in those days! And finally the ‘Honesty Box’ on the rear platform. Did anybody ever put anything into it, I wonder? I also remember the Oldham Roe bodies were a bit short on bell pushes in the upper saloon and conductors would give the starting signal from the front with a couple of heavy stamps of the foot on the floor above the cab!
We seem to concentrate our interest in the exteriors of buses but not much is written or photographed about the insides.

Philip Halstead

13/03/11 – 08:05

Philip, I fully agree regarding bus interiors. That was the environment in which you travelled, and it was often very distinctive – location and style of bell pushes (or cords or strips), pattern of light fittings (before the arrival of standard fluorescent strip lights), seats and upholstery – even smells. Perhaps there are a few more interior shots out there to add another dimension?

Stephen Ford

04/06/18 – 07:03

This is a few years after Stephen’s comment which I’ve only just read, but with regard to ‘smells’, I used to love getting a green West Riding tin-front Guy from Sheffield to Ecclesfield back in the 1950’s. Unlike the STD buses, they were cleaned with a pleasant, perfumed disinfectant which I can still ‘smell’ to this day.
At that time, I think both West Riding and Yorkshire Traction buses carried posters on the windows stating ‘Cut the fuel tax. We don’t like it, you don’t like it, it must GO!’. Anyone else remember that ?

Mike C

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/20 – YWB 294 – 1294


Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1957
Leyland PD2/20
ECW H31/28R

Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee took delivery of eight Leyland PD2/20 in 1957 of which five had Eastern Coachworks bodies and the remaining three were bodied by Roe.
The purchase of the three B fleet and two C fleet ECW bodied buses was made possible by the connection with the BTC through the part ownership of the Joint Committee fleets by British Railways.
These bodies were very similar to the those built around the same time on the final Bristol KSW chassis for Brighton Hove and District. They were certainly unique and the first bodies built on non Bristol chassis by ECW for a number of years.
1294 is seen on 31st March 1973 at the remote terminus at Wyming Brook which was an occasional extension of service 51 which normally terminated at Lodge Moor Hospital. The bus is about to reverse into the side road past the conductor who is nonchalantly leaning on what appears to be a rubbish bin watching me take the photograph. By this date the Joint Omnibus Committee was in the past and the bus is displaying Sheffield Transport fleet names but without the City Coat of Arms.
The front fleet number fits very snugly into the blank space originally provided for the Midland Red logo whilst the square front number plate seems to me to give the bus a ‘rabbits teeth’ appearance. I seem to recall that sister buses 1292 and 1293 had more conventional rectangular front number plates.
The bus was withdrawn later in 1973 thus having completed a creditable sixteen years in service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

18/05/11 – 06:58

A very smart-looking vehicle in the round. Even when told that it has an ECW body, the BMMO front somehow fools you into not realising it!
The only other non-Bristols I can readily think of as having ECW bodies, were the private-hire AEC Regal IV’s delivered to London Transport in 1951. Their bodies were unique, looking like nothing ECW had produced either before or after! As a nationalised concern, LTE was always subject to its chassis being ECW-bodied, but ECW was never able to cope with the volume demanded of it – with just 15, the RFW’s were an exception.

Chris Hebbron

18/05/11 – 10:20

Yes, Chris – it seems strange to see a non-Bristol with an ECW body, but there were a surprising number of exceptions. LTE not only had the RFWs, but also the Guy Specials (GS). Apart from rebuilds, other examples were the Southdown and East Yorkshire PS1s, the Eastern National and Bristol Omnibus PD1As, the Lowestoft Regent IIs, the Red & White Albions, and the Middlesbrough PD1s and Guys. Yet another example of how fascinating the bus scene was in those days, and I’m sure others can add to the list.

Paul Haywood

18/05/11 – 10:22

This bus like its brethren ended up with Yorkshire Woollen when they had a severe vehicle shortage in the early seventies It joined the ex West Yorks Bristols and South Wales Bridgemasters already shown on this site. Some early Atlanteans also went north to Dewsbury from Sheffield YWD used the top destination box on both ex SWT and Sheffield vehicles to display a fleet name The ex York Bristols had only single aperture boxes and just showed a destination.

Chris Hough

18/05/11 – 10:46

As I keep telling people here in Surrey, half of Sheffield is countryside, a third even in the Peak District. This area was always in Sheffield – certainly post WW 2 and close to where some of my family lived – typical B Fleet country. I always liked the Bristol and Lincolnshire highbridge KSWs, so I had a soft spot for these handsome ECW PD2s. [The C Fleet pair had platform doors – apparently retrofitted at Queens Road.] Sheffield also had B and C Fleet ECW Leopard coaches.
If we’re talking pre 1965 and the Leyland induced freedom, there were at least two other example of non Bristol ECW bodies.
They were:
(i) the 1947(?) AEC Regent II (with bodies like the 7’6″ Bristol K highbridge bodies – again see Lincolnshire) delivered to ECWs local authority at Lowestoft, resplendent in very un Tilling maroon and (ii) AEC Regal III for Lough Swilly in Northern Ireland with Bristol L style bodies.

David Oldfield

18/05/11 – 14:12

Are you sure this one went to YWD? They were the C Fleet buses in 1970, after the formation of NBC. STD lost the C Fleet routes and fleet but retained the B fleet buses and most of the routes.

David Oldfield

18/05/11 – 21:55

Sorry for the wrong information about these going to YWD it was the C fleet examples which went north

Chris Hough

18/05/11 – 21:57

As far as I am aware the B and C fleet vehicles never carried the Corporation crest.
1294 and 1296 were still in service in Sheffield in the summer of 1973.

Stephen Bloomfield

18/05/11 – 21:59

If I might hazard a guess (which may be wrong!) the previous non-Bristol deckers bodied by ECW prior to these were a batch of seven for Midland General in 1955. Six were re-bodies on Guy Arab II’s and the seventh was an AEC Regent III whose original Weymann body had been badly damaged in an accident. All were highbridge. I believe the AEC was the only Regent III ever to be bodied by ECW.
As an aside, it’s just possible that the MGO Guys and the Sheffield PD2’s could have met in Chesterfield, albeit working to different termini.

Chris Barker

19/05/11 – 06:38

The MGO Guys and ECW bodied PD2’s could have met at the same terminal in Chesterfield, Beetwell Street. Could have operated on service 99 and possibly one other.
Between 1951 and 1953 Western S.M.T rebodied Guy Arab II’s, Daimler CWA6’s, Albion Venturers and some Leyland PD1’S.

Stephen Bloomfield

19/05/11 – 09:38

C fleet 1153 was sent to Dewsbury in 1970 and lasted until 1972

Chris Hough

20/05/11 – 06:56

Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee service 99 was a single deck route due to very low bridges at Barrow Hill.

Ken Wragg

22/05/11 – 08:37

With respect to the two ‘C’ fleet ECW PD2’s that were transferred to Yorkshire Woollen in 1970, an interesting point is that although they were transferred to YWD ‘on paper’ as of January 1st, 1970, due to a shortage of buses in Sheffield at the time, 3152/3 (YWB 152/3) were operated by STD from Greenland Road garage ‘on hire’ from the National Bus Company until the 1st of May that year, when they were finally sent up the road to Dewsbury!
Presumably the legal lettering on these buses would have been changed to reflect their new owner as of the beginning of the year. That being the case, I wonder then if they operated for those four months with ‘On Hire to STD’ posters displayed in the front nearside window? If so, this would have looked quite odd, considering they were in full Sheffield livery at the time!

Dave Careless

31/05/16 – 06:20

ECW bodies built until around 1950 were ordered prior to Transport Act 1947 provisions coming in, they prevented ECW building for anyone other than 100% state-owned operators, like (in Sheffield’s case) the British Railway’s board.
Not only did that stop (Bristol and) ECW supplying previously loyal customers on the home market but it also killed a promising export trade, in ECW’s case including AEC Regals for the Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway and Leyland Tigers for Isle of Man Road Transport.
One ECW body for London Transport mentioned was the fourth prototype Routemaster.
In 1965 Leyland Motor Corporation exchanged a 30% holding in Park Royal Vehicles and Charles H. Roe for a 25% interest in Bristol Commercial Vehicles and Eastern Coach Works, by the end of 1966 Bristol and ECW products were back on open sale.

Stephen Allcroft

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – RWJ 713 – 713


Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1954
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Weymann H32/26R

It’s 27th April 1968 and Sheffield 713 turns from Leopold Street terminus into West Street on another trip out into the country at Rivelin Dams.
713 was one of the batch of 56 (the largest single batch of buses purchased by Sheffield) delivered in March/April 1954 to replace trams on the Ecclesall – City – Middlewood route. Apart from accident victim 707, all the batch were withdrawn in 1967 and 1968 so 713 had only a short service life left by the time of this picture.
Nowadays Sheffield Supertram runs through the middle of this picture on its way to Middlewood but via a different route that 713 and its sister vehicles would have taken countless times during their 13/14 year life.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

13/09/11 – 07:53

April 1968 – my last few months in Sheffield as a student and I well remember these PD2s. Service 54 ran to a reservoir/control room just over the border in Derbyshire but was nevertheless a Corporation A route rather than a Joint Omnibus Committee B route, as was generally the case with cross-boundary services. The terminus was at the Norfolk Arms, now no more.

Geoff Kerr

13/09/11 – 17:00

Can anybody please enlighten me on the road layout at this point in 1968. On the face of it, there is a roundabout with yellow flowers but behind PD2 No. 713 is a rear engined machine seemingly turning right into Church Street ‘wrong way’. Also, there is a ‘No Entry’ sign at the Leopold Street corner.

John Darwent

14/09/11 – 07:43

Would that be The Norfolk Arms at Ringinglow Geoff ?

Roger Broughton

14/09/11 – 07:44

You’re not the only one who is intrigued, John. I was in the fourth form at school along the route of 713 when this was taken and cannot remember this odd layout – which is at the confluence of Leopold Street (to right), West Street (where 713 is entering), Church Street (where early Atlantean is heading) and Town Head Street (off to the left). The spire in the background is Sheffield Cathedral.
The Norfolk Arms was always well within the city limits. Even though they are different and wider now, there was always a great deal of countryside on the south and west side. In the post 1974 Sheffield, half the area is countryside, a third of it in the Peak District National Park.

David Oldfield

14/09/11 – 07:45

A one way loop had been introduced earlier in the 1960s comprising Leopold St, Church St and Fargate. Coming along Leopold St, traffic could turn left into West Street(as 713), right (wrong side of the roundabout)into Church St(as the Atlantean) or go straight ahead down Townhead St. Similarly traffic inbound on West St could use the roundabout in the conventional way and access Church St merging with the loop traffic from Leopold St. Sounds complicated written down but hope this assists.

Ian Wild

14/09/11 – 07:47

Nice buses these, but to me they always seemed slow and ponderous compared to the SWE-registered Regents with the same style of Weymann body, except for the outswept panels.
The AEC’s had that barking exhaust, and would come tearing out of the platforms in the bus station on their way to Hackenthorpe and Hemsworth, making Pond Street sound more like a racing car circuit than a municipal bus station. They had a smarter style of wheel nut ring as well, but I’d better not get going on that topic or there’ll be no end to it. What a splendid city for buses though, in those days.

Dave Careless

14/09/11 – 16:56

The Norfolk Arms mentioned above was on Manchester Road. The Norfolk Arms at Ringinglow is still very much in existence.

Stephen Bloomfield

14/09/11 – 16:56

What can I do, Dave, but agree with you. I had far more contact with the Regent IIIs than the PD2s – and did not regret it for one minute.

David Oldfield

15/09/11 – 09:27

Thank you for the explanation Ian. I worked in George Street from 1961 through 1964 but cannot for the life of me remember the one-way loop. Probably attentions towards the fairer sex had taken over at that time.
Ah well.

John Darwent

16/09/11 – 09:26

John, I think the one way loop came in later than 1964 which is why you wouldn’t recall it.

Ian Wild

17/09/11 – 08:04

Thanks Stephen, yes I know, we often call in when been out walking.

Roger Broughton

18/09/11 – 06:10

Photographs of this batch of buses always make me think of Endcliffe Park in Sheffield; you could see and hear them through the trees at the edge of the park, running along Rustlings Road every few minutes back and forth to Fulwood on the busy 88 service.
I remember going to the park on one of these one summer afternoon with my mother in the early sixties, and on getting off the bus, seeing for the first time in a toy shop window on Ecclesall Road an ‘Exide’ version of the Dinky Toys double decker. I pleaded for one, but it wasn’t in the equation, as despite whining and moaning all afternoon, it was apparent that an ice cream was as good as it was going to get! About four years ago, I finally bought one on eBay; it didn’t have a box, but it was considerably more than the modern day equivalent of 4/2 !!

Dave Careless

23/10/11 – 07:43

Hi very interesting site, much enjoyed. On this page, however, there is an error The Route 54 Rivelin Dams ran out of Pinfold Lane. The Route 51 Lodge Moor ran from Leopold Street. Route 51 was my first route as a rookie driver. The buses on that route during the 60s were AECs and on my first ever trip I was unable to get the handbrake off. I never experienced an AEC in driving school and was unaware that it was necessary to put ones foot down on the footbrake in order to release it. See this photo of mine of a PD2 I had driven to Rivelin Dams – //www.geograph.org.uk/

Dave Hitchborne

23/10/11 – 08:10

Sorry to argue, Dave, but the 51 and 50 left from Pinfold Lane – not far from Scout HQ and shop. I was a regular on the 51 from a young age, visiting family.

David Oldfield

04/12/11 – 07:46

Did the 54 later only go to Wyming Brook?

James Walker

15/03/12 – 09:30

Sorry, but I’m going to argue the point on this till the cows come home and my wife/clippie and I remember the Dore 50 and the Rivelin Dams 54 running from Pinfold Street and the Lodge Moor 51 ran from Leopold Street. Another reason for remembering the 51 running from Leopold Street is that it went from town via West Street and came back via Division Street and Barker’s Pool. On one occasion I was waiting to turn out of Barker’s Pool onto Leopold Street with a sports car in front when the driver of a Walkley 95 waived us both to proceed into Leopold Street. The sports car set off and I followed waiving and thanking the 95 driver when I suddenly realised that the sports car had stopped around the corner at the pedestrian crossing and I was inches away from it when I stamped on the brakes. The bus stopped, but my reserve conductor was hurled to the front of the bus where I heard him whack the bulkhead behind me. He then spent about 10 mins in Leopold Street instructing me on his knowledge of the English language. I believe his name was Abdul Roafe and I have a photo of him.

Dave Hitchborne

16/03/12 – 12:45

Regarding the debate on the 50, 51 and 54, I have had a look in the STD Timetable and the following is stated;

October 1951 T/T
50 Departs City (Trippett Lane) *
51 City (Pinfold Street)
54 and 55 City (Leopold Street)

May 1960 T/T
50 Departs City (Pinfold Street) *
51 City (Pinfold Street)
54 and 55 City (Leopold Street)

So, apart from the 50 moving a few yards to align with the 51 at Pinfold Street, they all remained more or less the same during this time scale. If there were subsequent alterations in the 1960’s, I can’t say as I don’t have the records but it seems that, at the moment, David O is ahead on points! Perhaps someone has a timetable to confirm departure points and routes taken in subsequent years.

John Darwent

17/03/12 – 06:22

Thank you for your defence, John. On reading Dave H’s post, something occurred to me. The 51 eventually became a cross city service to Gleadless/Herdings. At that point it would have travelled along Leopold Street from Gleadless to Lodge Moor. It would then go down Townhead Street and turn up broad Lane. In the other direction it left Broad Lane to end up going down Trippett Lane.

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

18/03/12 – 07:46

Regarding Sheffield Corporation buses in the 1950s does anybody remember a bizarre religious sect who took advertisement space with such warnings as ‘The Wages of Sin is Death’ and other warnings. Bringing the subject right up to date I notice that here at Lothian Buses we have a number of buses with the advertisement ‘Try Praying’.

Philip Carlton

19/03/12 – 09:18

Interesting observation Philip. Is the advertisement aimed at Edinburgh citizens in general, or just passengers waiting for buses provided by one of Lothian RT’s major competitors do you think?

Brendan Smith

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – NWE 561 – 361


From the Tom Robinson Collection

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Mann Egerton H30/26R

There have been many previous references to Sheffield PD2s including those bodied by Leyland, Weymann/MCW, Roe and ECW but as far as I know, the small but rare order for two buses from Mann Egerton hasn’t been mentioned. These buses enjoyed the usual thirteen year life with Sheffield prior to selling on. Tom Robinson of the Sheffield Transport Study Group comments and I quote “362 went via a Barnsley scrapman to Paton’s of Renfrew. Paton was so pleased with the bus he immediately tried to buy 361 which was at the same scrapyard. Alas it was in the course of being scrapped. In time ex 362 was cut down to single deck. The result of a fire, I think, and used as a tow wagon. They really were impressive and heavy vehicles. The saloon woodwork was especially opulent.”
Keith Beeden advises that although the original contract called for H30/26R, steps were taken shortly after delivery to change this to H32/26R possibly because Roe were seating H33/25R on their deliveries at the time

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Darwent

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

The Roe PD2s were the first of many bodies from the Crossgate works. They were NWE 586-594 but were delivered earlier, in 1951. I suspect the reason for both bodies being higher seating capacity was that they were (Sheffield’s) earliest vehicles to 27′ rather 26′ length.
Despite many comments to the contrary, even by eminent experts, there was a standard – but not standardised – Sheffield bus. [During most of the ‘fifties it was either a Regent or Titan with either a Weymann or Roe body.] It changed with time and the demise of certain companies but a lot of the post war interest was with the “distress purchases” when, especially Weymann, could not meet demand. Occasionally the distress purchases turned out to be gems – true of these two Mann Egertons. There are two magnificent green London Transport Ts on the Rally Circuit (9.6 powered Regal III – a single deck RT) which attest to the beauty and quality of Mann Egerton’s work.
Mann Egerton were better known as the Norwich Austin dealer and they bodied many early post war Austins as small coaches, but the London Transport work did no harm to their reputation and their balance sheet.

David Oldfield

13/09/12 – 07:05

Here is a picture of 362 with Patons: www.flickr.com

Stephen Bloomfield

13/09/12 – 08:33

Very handsome vehicle, especially in that fine livery. Had no idea that Mann Egerton had ever built d/deckers. Sad that 361 was broken up after such a short life: if they were heavy then they must have been pretty robust too.

Ian Thompson

14/09/12 – 06:29

Ian, they are supposed to be the only deckers they ever built. They did get as far as building underfloor coaches as well – including a pair of AEC Regal IVs for Creamline of Bordon Hants.

Stephen. Can’t find 362 on flickr.

David Oldfield

14/09/12 – 06:32

They were certainly unusual looking, and stood out, especially with that slightly recessed panel at the front where the destination boxes were, which was unique in the fleet. But to my mind, they weren’t nearly as handsome as the OWB-registered PD2/10’s (656-667) alongside which they ran regularly on the 69 service joint with Rotherham Corporation. I seem to recall the two Mann Egerton’s sat down at the back end quite noticeably, especially when they had a good load on, but perhaps that was just a perception.
Ironically, one of the PD2/10’s, 666, was cut down to a gritter/towing vehicle by STD, just like Paton’s ended up doing with the former 362, and in its sheared off form, G56, as it became, was kept busy for many years, considerably longer than the fourteen years it served as a bus, towing all kinds of disgraced rear-engined machines back to Central Works from wherever they’d decided to expire. And it always looked quite happy doing it!

Dave Careless

14/09/12 – 06:34

A smart bus, indeed – but does anyone know why these had the sunken destination screen box? I know some pre-war and early post-war Sheffield buses had this feature, but it was by no means universal. It would be interesting to speculate that, had Mann Egerton ever tried to sell d/d’s to LT following on from their successful PS1s, then this large screen box area would be almost the same proportions as that used for the roof-box RT!

Paul Haywood

14/09/12 – 06:35

A quicker link to the ex- 362 picture Stephen.
Debateable whether the Patons livery does the bus any favours though. www.flickr.com/

John Darwent

14/09/12 – 06:37

Is it just me, or can anyone else see a distinct resemblance to Roberts bodywork (also very heavy!) sct61.org.uk/da86  ?

Peter Williamson

14/09/12 – 06:14

Apparently Glasgow Corporation FYS 494 fleet number D66 was a Daimler CVD6 with a Mann Egerton H30/26R body, new in 1951, scrapped 1960 and rebodied with an Alexander body from FYS 488 fleet number D60 which was a Daimler CD650, (10.6 litre with power steering) but chassis scrapped, not a very popular bus that one.

Spencer

14/09/12 – 06:39

Glasgow Corporation received a Mann Egerton bodied Daimler CVD6 double-decker in 1951 – D66 (FYS 494).

David Call

15/09/12 – 07:08

You’ll be hard pressed to find many of today’s featherweight Eurobuses fit to be preserved in future years and yet in the fifties the professionals were complaining about buses being too heavy. [Please compare fuel mpg of a fifties half-cab with a Euro 5 diesel.]
Why do people eulogise the Mann Egertons and their contemporary Roberts Regent IIIs – let alone their mainstream Weymann and Roe cousins? They were beautifully made, well made and looked good. The lightweight Orion and similar PRV/Roe offerings were the reaction to these heavy bodies. I ask you, what would you prefer?

The recessed destination display was, indeed, a pre-war Sheffield feature. There are echoes in the 1949/50 Cravens/Regent IIIs – featured on this site earlier this year. The most interesting manifestation was on the immediate pre-war all Leyland TD5cs, which had to have non-standard small upper deck screens to accommodate it. It was also a feature of the 1936 Cravens/TD4cs and “broke” the blue line under the upper deck windows. Weymanns managed to get the display in without either recessing the display or breaking the line.
Some post-war bodies managed to “avoid the line” in the Weymann manner but most encroached into the line surrounding the number display without breaking it. Significantly, the 1953/4 PD2/Weymanns avoided the line, like their predecessors, but the subsequent 1954 Regent III/Weymanns “encroached” in the normal post war fashion. Hours of scrutinising photographs has not yielded a satisfactory answer to the question, Why?

Dave. Couldn’t agree more. 656-667 were my favourite PD2s.

David Oldfield

15/09/12 – 07:09

In Classic Bus 110 I asked if Sheffield was the only order for M.E doubledeckers. The reply, and a follow-up in Classic Bus 112 will probably interest those who have responded above.

Les Dickinson

15/09/12 – 07:11

The reason that Sheffield ordered the two Mann Egerton bodies is quite interesting.
In November 1949 a tender was advertised for 30 double deck buses, complete chassis and bodies or chassis only or bodies only.
At the time, all the STD PD2/1’s delivered since 1947, carried Leyland bodywork. The Leyland management advised the transport committee to “look elsewhere for bodywork”
In consequence, an intended order for 30 buses to the forthcoming new regulations of 27′ x 7’6″ was varied. The result was that an order for 10 NCB, 2 Roe and 2 Mann Egerton bodies were contracted.
Surprisingly, Leyland offered to supply 16 complete vehicles to the existing 26’x 7’6″ PD2/1 standard. Unfortunately, NCB ceased trading, and Roe were awarded another seven bodies. The balance of the outstanding 11 (9 Roe 2 Mann Egerton) were built on the PD2/12 27’x 8′ chassis, authorised in 1950. This batch of 11 replaced 13 trams for the City to Fulwood tramway abandonment. Therefore the original 30 require was reduced to 27. Quite a complicated situation!

Keith Beeden

15/09/12 – 07:13

I understood that Newcastle Corporation also had some Daimler CW’s rebodied by Mann Egerton

Stephen Bloomfield

16/09/12 – 06:50

So, Keith, Leyland were anticipating pulling out of coach-building that early and at the same time were already showing signs of their later take it or leave it attitude. Thanks for the insight.

David Oldfield

16/09/12 – 06:52

Stephen
You may or may not remember me from our time together at BCT, but that’s another story.

Newcastle Corporation had a batch of 5 Daimler CWA6 vehicles delivered between 1945-47 that received new Mann Egerton bodies in October 1950. They had been delivered new with second-hand bodies transferred from 1931 vehicles.

Kevin Hey

14/12/12 – 16:17

It is true that Newcastle had Mann Egerton Deckers , there were I believe three on Daimler chassis, possibly rebodies of chassis that had originally been fitted with pre war Metro Cammel bodies taken from scrapped earlier chassis, and also Glasgow had one Mann Egerton bodied Daimler, D66 I believe

Mr Anon

05/07/14 – 17:34

Mr Anon, Newcastle had 5 Mann Egerton bodied Daimlers, they were fleet numbers 1 to 5, JVK 421 to 425.

Peter Stobart

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – NWE 591 – 391


Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Roe H33/25R

The recent posting of a Sheffield Mann Egerton bodied PD2 fleet number 362 provided some interesting information on new bus orders about that time and here is one of the Roe bodied PD2/12 ordered at the same time as the Mann Egerton pair. These were very elegant looking vehicles with deep windows in both saloons and I think looked especially handsome in the C T Humpidge era livery with three blue bands. Interesting to note how Roe incorporated a variation of the standard Sheffield destination layout – probably necessary because of the reduced depth available because of the afore mentioned deep windows. I well recall these buses replacing the Fulwood via Hunters Bar trams as the first programmed tram replacement scheme in January 1952. The new 88 bus route ran between the City and Fulwood with the City terminus being uniquely located in Eyre Street outside the Motor Vehicle Licensing Office (near the Central Library). This continued I believe until March 1954 when the 88 became a cross City service between Fulwood and Malin Bridge at the same time as the 81/82 bus routes replaced trams between Ecclesall and Middlewood.
Here is 391 in later life about to turn into Herries Road Depot on a summer evening in July 1967. The batch of nine were withdrawn the following year and 391 ended up inevitably with a Barnsley breaker.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

14/10/12 – 10:47

I am, of course, predisposed and prejudiced in this post. Magnificent body, excellent operator – and pretty good chassis!!! I never quite got to terms with the “heavy on blue” livery that all Roes were delivered in and generally preferred this scheme – which was always on repaint. Nevertheless, I also felt that these PD2s looked slightly bald in this scheme. Never actually rode on one and didn’t realise it was originally a City only service from Eyre Street. Only used the 60 to Crimicar Lane in my childhood – the 88 didn’t go up the hill!

David Oldfield

14/10/12 – 10:41

What I could never understand about the Sheffield fleet is this: all the views I have, bought ones or my own work relating to the bus fleet, show this style of livery. With the trams, however, and there are several preserved at Crich, if it was delivered in livery “A” it retained that livery throughout. If it was delivered in “B”, it retained “B” throughout. Only the 1953 ‘Roberts’ trams had this style. Can anyone explain the apparent reluctance to modernise the livery on the trams, when it seems to have been done on the buses?

Pete Davies

15/10/12 – 07:32

Pete, you seem to have an inaccurate memory – or information – about Sheffield livery. This scheme was introduced in about 1936 for the Domed Standard (tram) Cars and extended to AEC Regent/Weymann buses. It was extended to all buses eventually, pre-war, including Craven and Leyland bodied TD5 Titans. The livery was perpetuated after the war on the Roberts trams – the only trams bought after the Domed Standards and, of course, the last “first generation” trams. It was also the standard bus livery except, for some inexplicable reason, all Roe deckers, Leyland Farington deckers and the final “not” Farington Leyland body (which were delivered in the short-lived and disastrous green experimental livery). The Roe and Leyland bodies had far more blue paint but most, if not all, Roes were painted in the scheme shown at first overhaul. Yet another superb colour shot by Ian.

David Oldfield

15/10/12 – 10:00

Thank you, David. The source of my information seems to be incorrect!

Pete Davies

15/10/12 – 17:22

The whole vehicle is pure and classic Roe, except for the front upper deck windows which look a little odd, the way that the top edge looks lower than the side windows. No doubt it’s just the evening sun shining on the white dome but it made me look twice, I thought some alteration had been done. Still a superb bus though!

Chris Barker

15/10/12 – 17:23

And don’t forget the variant of the grey roof, David, which buses tended to acquire on first repaint. I’ve heard it said that the grey was made up in Queens Road by mixing the dregs of the cream and blue paint tins, but I’m not sure how correct that is. I think the practice ended after Chaceley Humpidge became GM in 1961, as he wasn’t a fan of the grey roof. Personally, I think the ‘Farington’ PD2’s in their ‘Roe’ style livery looked better than ever with the roof painted grey.
Oddly enough, the domed roof trams that inaugurated the ‘new’ livery had a variation of the grey roof, or at least acquired one eventually; perhaps in wartime in an effort to make the cars less visible from the air? If the grey was in fact a combination of the blue and cream, perhaps it was a conscious effort on the part of the paint shop to not waste a drop!!

Dave Careless

16/10/12 – 05:29

Dave, you are absolutely correct about the grey paint – actually called “smudge”. It gave a certain dignity to an already super livery. I do not know, and to my shame have not as yet bothered to find out, whether there was a policy about the smudge. My feeling is that it was applied before entry into service (whether or not by the coachbuilder or by STD) and lost on overhaul/repaint. I certainly feel that all the Weymanns (classic and Orion alike) on 26′ and 27′ chassis entered service with smudge roofs. The Domed cars probably likewise.

David Oldfield

16/10/12 – 11:45

I don’t know whether there was a wartime edict to paint bus roofs a less obtrusive colour . LPTB went from silver to grey to brown quickly. However, the dirt falling onto tram and trolleybus roofs from poles and wiring might well have been a consideration not to change back later.

Chris Hebbron

16/10/12 – 16:52

Grey roof painting was widely adopted on the outbreak of WW2. It was kept by many operations for a long time afterwards. For instance Manchester had its 1946 deliveries painted in this manner. When it converted its orders to 8′ wide vehicles they appeared with red roofs, the 7′ 6″ vehicles retained the grey so the bus washers knew how to set washer width. Few 7’6″ vehicles appeared in the “overall” red scheme but by that time the washers set themselves automatically.
Stockport cut back its grey from 1946 but retained the centre of the roof in grey for all deliveries up to and including the first batch of St Helen’s fronted PD2s in 1962. Frank Brimelow specified translucent roofs thereafter but all re-sprays of grey roofed vehicles received the grey until SELNEC took over.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/10/12 – 08:30

On the subject of grey or other colour for the roof, one of my former colleagues was a descendent of B C Baker of Birmingham City Transport. Birmingham had a sandy colour for their bus roofs, apparently as camouflage. My colleague suggested it was to confuse the Afrika Corps!

Pete Davies

17/10/12 – 08:31

This bus and its windows is reminiscent of Roe’s 8ft Doncaster 121 and 122 which were sold to Blue Ensign after 4 years because either they didn’t fit the streets (official) or the washer (Tony Peart). Did they also have the cranked seats and “high level” rear platform? It seems that Roe had a sudden urge to innovate…?

Joe

17/10/12 – 11:24

No, Joe, that was a Doncaster thing. The vehicles you mention are closer to STD 18/19; 113-119 – the 1952 four bay bodied Regent IIIs (my equal favourite with 1325 – 1349). Incidentally, Charles Halls has these PD2s (386 – 394) as 1951 and 361/2 (the Mann Egertons) as 1952. I always took this to be correct and that the Roes were late ’51 and the Mann Egertons early ’52.

David Oldfield

17/10/12 – 18:04

One further thought with respect to Sheffield’s penchant for grey roofs, a style that became a thing of the past after C.T. Humpidge took over. It occurs to me that it must have seemed a bit like deja vu to the new General Manager when he got settled into the chair at Sheffield in 1961.
Bradford’s fleet had grey roofs into the early 1950’s, when he took over the top job in that city, after which the roofs on the buses eventually became blue on his watch. When he took over the reins at Sheffield, and saw the tins of “smudge” on the shelves at Queens Road, he must have felt he was starting all over again!

Dave Careless

18/10/12 – 07:46

The Fulwood via Hunters Bar tram route that these buses took over from was converted to bus operation (service 88) on 5th January 1952 so this batch would almost certainly have been delivered in late 1951. I can only recall one Sheffield bus with cranked seats and this was all Leyland 651 of the 1949 batch (and then I think the lower deck only). Can the Sheffield people out there confirm this and what was the reason?

Ian Wild

18/10/12 – 10:44

Chieftain Buses of Hamilton acquired a second-hand ex-Sheffield TD5 Craven in the late 40s. BWB ###. The engine in this bus sounded different to any other TD5 I had come across. It surely could not have been a petrol engine? Any enlightenment?

Jim Hepburn

18/10/12 – 14:37

Leeds had one AEC Regent with staggered seats 700 NUM 700 a 1950 show exhibit which was LCTs second 8ft wide bus I have a vague feeling that these were removed and replaced with normal seating towards the end of its LCT life.

Chris Hough

19/10/12 – 06:32

The Sheffield livery variation on the Roe bodied vehicles has long been a talking point. The whole process was caused by the changes to the Leyland Farington PD2/1’s delivered in 1949. The mouldings below the lower deck windows were discontinued, along with upper beading. Leyland asked for a simplified livery in lieu of cream and three blue bands, for the high cost of lining out would be excessive.
AEC Regent Weymann FWJ 808 was used to trial a simpler paint style.
With a slight modification,this livery was adopted for the large intake of Farington PD2’s.
When the Roe order for PD2/12’s was placed, a similar situation resulted. The narrow lower deck waist rail would have unbalanced the lower deck blue band proportions, therefore a decision was made to adopt the Farington style. The new GM C.T.Humpidge took a dislike to the Roe livery in 1962 and repaints received the standard livery in due course. Remarkably, none of the Farington fleet were so changed in livery style.

Keith Beeden

24/11/12 – 06:50

Referring to Jim Hepburn’s post of 18th October, as the BWA to BWE range of registrations was limited to 1935, I would imagine that the vehicle he refers to would be a Leyland TD4C/Cravens which used the torque converter rather than a convention gearbox and was commonly known as ‘Gearless Bus’. The sound produced, as I remember, from like vehicles surviving into the 50’s resembled a long monotonous droning noise especially from a standing start.

Just to add to David Oldfield’s response to Pete Davies on the subject of liveries. For Pete to understand that trams delivered in Liveries A or B would retain that livery throughout is erroneous. Following the standardisation of Azure Blue and Cream circa 1936, numerous older trams previously wearing the Prussian Blue and Cream were repainted into the Azure Blue livery. In fact, one such tram, namely 150, delivered in Prussian Blue in 1930 was repainted into the ill-fated Green livery in 1952 and then Azure Blue shortly afterwards.

As regards the subject of the post, PD2 No. 391, my humble opinion is that it looks absolutely dreadful in the Humpidge interpretation of the standard livery. As Keith Beedon has explained, the Farrington style livery was applied to the Roe designs for good reason and looked nicely balanced on these elegant vehicles. The painting out of the dividing bar on the front destination box just added to the desecration but credit is due for restoring the cream roof. I would refer all to C.C.Hall’s ‘Sheffield Transport’ Page 263 to see just how superb 389 of the same batch looked when new. (I’m sure many of you will have this book but if not and you are ‘Up North’, there is a copy in the splendid ‘Search Engine’ Reference Library at the National Railway Museum at York)

John Darwent

18/12/12 – 17:37

Referring to Ian Wild’s post of 18-10-2012, Keith Beeden advises that Sheffield all Leyland 651 was fitted with cranked seats on both decks. These were supplied by Siddall and Hilton. Here is an extract from Commercial Motor of 8th December 1950- Article titled Innovation Components and Accessories
“More room with less seat” is the object of the new Sidhil-Morseat, manufactured by Siddall and Hilton, Ltd.. Sowerby Bridge, Yorks. Employing a cleverly cranked frame, this service-bus seat enables two passengers to sit comfortably side by side without encroaching on each other or on the gangway.
The outer half of the seat, apart from being set back, as in a normal cranked seat, is also turned slightly inward, so that the “gangway” passenger’s elbows are out of the way of the inside” passenger. A recess in the centre of the seat provides additional elbow-room, enabling both passengers to get at pockets for their fares without the usual difficulty.
Further, each person enjoys the full width of backrest and the “inner” passenger can more easily leave his seat without disturbing his neighbour. With this design, the conductor can move more easily about the bus, and is able, with less difficulty, to collect the fares from the window-side passenger.

John Darwent

19/12/12 – 07:29

Siddall & Hilton are still in business today in Halifax producing wire products, hospital beds and other ancillary equipment for the healthcare industry.

Eric Bawden

03/08/13 – 14:25

Long time since I visited this site , but thanks to John Darwent for info. on BWB Craven. By this time, it had a conventional gearbox but still sounded unusual.
Now another ex. Sheffield bus was WJ 9094. Any info.?

Jim Hepburn

04/08/13 – 10:40

WJ 9094 was a Leyland TD3c, fleet number 94, Cravens H31/24R. Arrived 1934, withdrawn 1941. Think chassis number was 3606.

Les Dickinson

06/08/13 – 06:05

Thanks Les about info. on TD3c WJ 9094. This bus was converted to a conventional gearbox and served with J. Laurie`s of Hamilton`s “Chieftain” buses plying between Hamilton and East Kilbride, and was not withdrawn till 1954.

Jim Hepburn

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

14/10/13 – 08:09

seat_1
seat_2

Referring to my post of 18-12-12 about the cranked seats in Sheffield PD2 No. 651, I have now had the opportunity to photograph probably the last pair of ‘Sidhil’ Morseats in captivity which are currently in Sheffield AEC/MCW ex 255, now preserved as ex-gritter G55 in the South Yorkshire Transport Museum at Aldwarke, Rotherham.These seats were the spare pair supplied with 651 and retained by Sheffield Transport Department after the bus was sold on.

John Darwent

15/10/13 – 07:08

Not quite the last set in captivity!. Doncaster 122, the beautiful AEC Regent 111/Roe restored by the late Tony Peart has these seats as well.

Andrew Charles

15/10/13 – 18:03

Splendid news Andrew, thank you for posting. Has 122 a full set, upstairs and downstairs, do you know? I wonder if any more are lurking in preservation.

John Darwent

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan – LWE 123 – 623


Copyright Dave Careless

Sheffield Corporation
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

The scene on the parking area at Pond Street bus station in Sheffield, in August, 1959, featuring a line-up of Sheffield vehicles, including one of the NCB bodied Crossley DD42/5’s, put to work as a driver trainer after withdrawal, and painted in the reversed livery of the service fleet. Nearest the camera is ‘A’ fleet (Corporation owned) 623 (LWE 123) a 1949 all-Leyland PD2/1, in the ‘Farington’ style livery with dark blue window surrounds, at the time operating from Greenland Road garage, and next to it is ‘B’ fleet (ownership shared by the Corporation and British Railways) 178 (SWE 278), an MCW bodied Regent III dating from 1954, and working from Bramall Lane garage, seen here resting after working in from the delightful Derbyshire hamlet of Castleton, famous for its limestone caves, on service 72.


The other two are both ‘A’ fleet buses, next to 178 being one of the 1948 Roberts bodied AEC Regent III’s, 327 (KWB 927) working from yet another of the Sheffield garages at the time, this one on the roster of Herries Road depot. Between 327 and the Crossley trainer is an unidentified FWA-registered Regent I dating from 1938, one of the eleven of a batch of fifteen vehicles (395-409) that were rebodied by Roe in 1952. These rebodied AEC’s somehow managed to retain their rugged pre-war appearance despite the much newer, stylish bodywork from the Crossgates works. On the radiators of the three Regents can be seen the sheet metal tabs that were often noted attached to the grilles of Sheffield buses, reading, as I recall, “STD – Do Not Drain.” !

This photo was taken as my mother and I were hurrying through the bus station on our way to the Midland Station to catch a train to London, on our way back to Canada after a summer holiday, having emigrated there the year before. I was just eleven years old at the time, and noting the magnificent line-up, implored my mother to take out the family Agfa and snap a quick shot! Not always quite so eager to please, she obliged on this occasion, and in so doing provided me with what was undoubtedly the first colour photo in my Sheffield collection, which has grown significantly since then! However, due to the circumstances in which it was taken, not one of the other views stirs the same poignant memories for me as this one does.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Careless

19/03/13 – 14:31

A very nice addition to the “Sheffield” page, Dave. Thanks for posting.

Pete Davies

19/03/13 – 14:47

Incredible Sheffield line up and, as usual, your comprehensive knowledge fleshes out the detail. [Two small points: Regent IIs were post war and Castleton is a village – hamlets have no church.] Do you ever get back these days?

David Oldfield

19/03/13 – 15:54

Thanks, Pete, glad you liked the picture. I realised a short while after I’d captioned the photo, David, that those FWA-Regents weren’t Regent II’s, I should have had my first edition of BBF No. 2 beside me for reference when I wrote it!!
Yes, I do get back from Nova Scotia from time to time, but probably not as often as I’d like. I was back for the 50th London Transport trolleybus event at Carlton Colville last May, (couldn’t possibly miss that) and spent a few enjoyable weeks in Sheffield as a guest of long-time friend and fellow Sheffield enthusiast, Paul Fox.
Remarkably, my aunt still lives in the same house in the east end of the city where I stayed during that summer holiday in 1959, and for the record, father’s old Agfa camera that took the picture, that he brought back with him from Germany after the war, apparently still exists in the care of the Photographic Society of Memorial University in St. John’s, Newfoundland!! What a pity that the buses it was pointed at on this overcast summer’s afternoon don’t exist along with it!!

Dave Careless

19/03/13 – 17:10

I don’t get back as often as I would like, Dave, and I only live in Surrey. I know of Paul, and have met him a couple of times – once when he brokered a second hand copy of Charles Halls book for me. Paul is better known by my closest school friend, Ian Manning.

David Oldfield

20/03/13 – 06:11

That’s interesting David, I wasn’t aware of the connection. I know Ian a little bit, he gave me a splendid run around Paisley one evening many years ago in a Clydeside Scottish Routemaster, truly expertly driven, one of the best RM rides I’ve ever had. Happy times!

Dave Careless

20/03/13 – 08:18

A great picture Dave. There were line-ups like this every day of the week. Different combinations all the time. Today’s wheeled boxes will never compare. Hope you have more to follow. Thanks for posting.

Les Dickinson

20/03/13 – 08:55

Well said, Les. Like the wheeled boxes. No sane person would “bad mouth” the (generally) well run and well kept fleets in London, Manchester or Birmingham. They were however, to quote a friend, boring in their ultra standardisation. Sheffield did have standard buses in that they had (the usual) dual sourcing policy from preferred suppliers. For many years this was Leyland and AEC – latterly Daimler when AEC deckers were no more. Weymann was a standard supplier until they folded in 1963. Alongside were Leyland and Craven pre WWII and then Roe in the ’50s. The interest was in the constant “odd” purchases and those unique to the JOC B & C fleets. The standards were still as high, if not higher than those in the standard fleets.

David Oldfield

20/03/13 – 10:04

Perhaps we’re biased David, but I loved the variety. I had a piece in Buses Yearbook 2012 about some of the unique and unusual buses in the fleets at Sheffield. Nothing too technical, just a layman’s notes really. Things like the Mann Egerton deckers, Strachans, Cawood, Craven bodies all added to the unique character. ECW bodies in a “municipal” fleet, Alexander bodies on 30 foot Regent Vs, Regent V fronts on Regent IIIs. Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be?

Les Dickinson

20/03/13 – 12:33

Enjoyed your piece in BY 2012, Les. I’m not going to apologise for being biased.

David Oldfield

20/03/13 – 12:34

I’m not convinced by David’s statement that the Manchester fleet suffered from ultra standardisation.
Between 1950 and 1964 (the end of front engined, rear entrance deliveries) there were no less than 3 basic designs from MCW (Post War Standard, Phoenix and Orion) plus Atlanteans and Fleetlines and the Orions alone had 3 different versions – 4 if you want to be picky – plus umpteen variations of window vents making many individual vehicles look different, not to mention two versions of Cave Brown Cave heating/cooling.
In addition there were 2 different Northern Counties body styles, 2 versions of the standard Leyland body and Manchester’s modified Burlingham bodies on Leyland and Daimler, each looking different.
Add in the trolleybuses, Post War Standards of two body widths on Leyland, Daimler and Crossley and anyone on the street in Manchester would be faced with a wide variety.
By 1964 Manchester had also changed the front end of its rear engined vehicle deliveries and it was only 4 more years until the Mancunians arrived adding to the variety.

Phil Blinkhorn

20/03/13 – 16:19

Excellent – taken before my time in Sheffield, but the LWE and SWE batches were still active in 1965.
I came through Castleton on Saturday, and the 72 bus is recognisable as the 272, now running every hour.

Geoff Kerr

20/03/13 – 16:28

I think its safe to say that the only Yorkshire municipal operator who had a standardised fleet at that time was Todmorden with all Leyland Titans, all the others had something different. Bradford rebodied second hand trolleys. Doncaster trolleybus bodies rebuilt for motor buses. Halifax a very mixed fleet triple sourced chassis plus the odd Loline and Albion saloon for good measure. Huddersfield no corporation motor buses until the sixties the JOC had Guy saloons. Hull dual door trollies a big influx of second hand deckers to ease the way to one man operation. Leeds a very odd collection of saloons three chassis types for eight buses triple sourced chassis polished bonnets. Middlesborough ECW bodied Leylands and Guys Dennis Lolines. Rotherham single deck trolleys all rebuilt to double deck. Sheffield has already been discussed and the aforementioned. Todmorden and the companies were just as exiting even THC owned WYRCC ran pre-war Bristol Ks until well in the sixties. Now we have the ubiquitous Wright bodied deckers and little of real interest to those of a certain age!

Chris Hough

20/03/13 – 16:36

Les, the variety you mention that was so much a part of the Sheffield scene back then was, as you say, very much in evidence every day, and I needed to go no further than the bottom of the small cul-de-sac where my aunt lived, which ran off Owler Lane, to witness it.
Not only were there PD2’s like 623 here, on the 17 service, which had only just supplanted the trams, and themselves replaced the following year by first generation Atlanteans and then again later by the magnificent Roe-bodied PD3’s, there was a steady stream of Cravens, Roberts and Weymann bodied Regent III’s on the peak hour workers services, shuttling between the large housing estates of Southey Green and Parson Cross and the miles of giant steelworks at Brightside and Templeborough.
And just a few yards down the road were even more wonderful Regents, turning every few minutes at the Reform Chapel to head back along Petre Street to the city, and out the other side to the more fashionable suburbs of Graves Park and Hollythorpe Rise. On Saturdays, just to liven things up, the new 30-footers would often get on there as well, both Weymann and Alexander ones. To sit there on the stone wall and watch it all go by was really quite magical.

Dave Careless

20/03/13 – 17:45

My maternal grandmother lived on Woodhouse Road (Intake) and we saw her every Saturday. My little stone wall was by the shops at the junction of Woodhouse Road and Mansfield Road, Dave. AECs on the 95 and 41, lowbridge Orions on the 15/19/21, various PD2s on the 23. [Not to mention EMMS 3 and 46.] Even half an hour, free of the family, on the stone wall was bliss.

David Oldfield

20/03/13 – 17:46

In my run down of the Yorkshire municipals and their oddities I forgot to mention Teeside Railless who pinned their hopes on the trolleybus for their entire existence and beyond, they rebodied many trollies and had some ex Reading ones at the very end. Equally their motor bus policy was a straight Leyland/Roe one unlike their immediate neighbours Middlesborough who quickly went to Fleetlines with NCME bodywork.

Chris Hough

21/03/13 – 06:14

To follow on from Chris’s recent post, around these parts (which I shall call “Youhill-land”) I find that the attire of the staff now provides more interest than the vehicles: “high-vis” or not; jeans or uniform (?) trousers; baseball cap – First (and who decided that a baseball cap was appropriate uniform issue?) or random – or not; woolley hat – see previous – or not; there seem to have been so many changes of uniform over the years that I can’t actually work out whether uniform or “smart casual” is being worn, but the permutations/combinations seem endless; tinted sunglasses/mirrored sunglasses of myriad styles – even in sunless winter; and whoever might be accompanying the driver – offspring, girl/boy-friend, wife, friend, “random pick-up” – draped over front dash.

Philip Rushworth

21/03/13 – 06:17

Dave Oldfield, you forgot the Chesterfield contribution of Titans on the 62/4, also passing your look-out post on the wall, and what about the Sheffield Regent III’s on the 25 Beighton, 26 Killamarsh, 30 Eckington. That wall must have seen much excitement over the years. Were you still there when the EMMS Alexander Lowlanders started passing by?
Happy Days.

Les Dickinson

21/03/13 – 10:54

Yes, Les, I had forgotten – but it’s fifty years of decline (mine and the buses) which has passed in the interim. Lowlanders? Not sure. The sojourn on my wall ended after my translation to (the original) King Edward VII School. …..but Oh the memories.

David Oldfield

21/03/13 – 17:30

David, another strategically placed stone wall was at the bottom of Burngreave Road, at Firvale. There was all kinds of activity there, including Tracky, West Riding and Yorkshire Woollen buses on the 65 group of services, but best of all the KWA-PD2’s pounding up the hill towards the city every few minutes on the 150/151. The trams shuttling between Meadowhead and Sheffield Lane Top made for a spectacular sight at this location as well, not to mention the full range of splendid sound effects.

Dave Careless

22/03/13 – 07:44

…..and Burngreave Vestry Hall could almost combine both of them – but I’m not convinced there was a suitable wall upon which to perch.

David Oldfield

22/03/13 – 07:46

I well remember the KWA registered batch of PD2s on the Shiregreen services. My Grammar School was at the top of the long climb from Pitsmoor and I decided that the 150/1 to Bridge Street was a better bet than the almighty crush to board a tram into the City (who says we schoolboys were better behaved in those days? – at least we didn’t use the foul language commonplace on school journeys nowadays – probably didn’t even know it!) Back to the buses, the initial 537-557 batch of PD2s had green rexine across the top of the lower saloon front bulkhead whereas the later ones had this area painted cream. Just a small detail but it somehow made them that much more different. Later when I started work I was placed for a time at Ecclesfield which involved journeys on Yorkshire Traction’s PS2 rebodies and later PD3s on the 65 service.

Ian Wild

22/03/13 – 09:09

Firth Park, Ian? Had an interview there – but no-one in Sheffield wanted me and I started my teaching career at Stretford Grammar School. Before then, often enjoyed the delights of Tracky PD3s when visiting relatives in Barnsley and also regularly visited a friend of my father at Pitsmoor/Firshill at the top of the hill between Firvale and Burngreave.

David Oldfield

22/03/13 – 10:18

The inclusion of 178 (SWE 278) in the picture raises another point. This was one of thirty-six similar buses delivered in 1954. Twelve for the A fleet were straight forward, ie 724-735 (SWE 424-435). The others were two for the C fleet, 1154/5, and twelve for the B fleet, 178-199. The registration plates were not issued in line with fleet numbers. SWE 254/5 were issued to 188 & 199, whilst their expected plates (SWE 288/99)went to 1154/5. Presumably this was due to delivery dates vs their “needed on fleet” dates. Can anyone give a definitive explanation of this anomaly please?

Les Dickinson

22/03/13 – 16:29

Can’t help Les, but your maths is shaky. 179 – 199 is twenty-two, not twelve. It was these I was most used to in the Greenhill/Lowedges area.

David Oldfield

22/03/13 – 16:30

I might be able to, Les. According to friend and long-time Sheffield observer and enthusiast, Keith Beeden, due to their long-distance work, it was decided to fit the two ‘C’ fleet examples, 1154/5, with saloon heaters to provide some passenger comfort in winter. Problem was, somebody at Queens Road made a mistake and the heaters accidentally got fitted in the wrong buses, 188 and 199!! Rather than mess about with the heaters any more, the simpler solution was to swap the two buses that had received them with the two actual ‘C’ fleet examples, which ended up in the ‘B’ fleet, bearing the numbers of the two which had been switched out.
Which just goes to prove that if you look long and hard enough, you’ll find there’s usually a reason for everything!! Towards the end of its life, SWE 299 made a memorable last trip to Bradford, organised by local enthusiasts, and once it got into its stride, acquitted itself very well despite its advancing years, and the jeers and taunts from the crews of other buses on the service that it encountered along the way!!

Dave Careless

22/03/13 – 16:31

I used to be a pupil at firth park Grammer from 62-67. It was on the way home where I learnt the skill of jumping off the bus as it went from Haymarket onto High St. It was a Policeman on point duties at the time, no traffic lights. The tram replacement no 75 (via Burngreave to Sheffield Lane Top), were AEC 5 Regents, Roe & Alexandra bodies. Many were garaged at Brammall Lane. I remembered them being delivered. The no 17 to Sheffield Lane Top (via Attercliffe & Page Hall Road) were all Leylands with Roe bodywork. There was a fatal accident on Page Hall Road, no 475 I think. The picture in the paper at the time showed no damage to the bus!

Andy Fisher

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

23/03/13 – 07:38

Has anyone any info. on the BWB reg. TD5s with Craven bodies?

Jim Hepburn

23/03/13 – 07:39

David O – no, I went to De La Salle Grammar on Scott Road at Firshill.

Ian Wild

23/03/13 – 09:05

Deep apologies, Ian. Taught at a Catholic Public School down here in Surrey and discovered that the father of two of my pupils was a De La Salle boy. [A friend, Old Edwardian, is Head of Music at Notre Dame. Was it deliberate to have them as far apart as possible at either end of the city?]

David Oldfield

23/03/13 – 16:06

Going back to Chris Hough’s comments about standardisation, particularly the TRTB bus fleet: Although it is true that all purchases from the late 1950s onwards were the Leyland/Roe combination, the all-Leyland buses (4 PD1A, 12 PD2/1) that formed the immediate post-war fleet renewal formed more than 50% of the bus fleet until the arrival of the 1965 Leopards. As late as 1967 they could still be found doing duty on the ‘T’ service into Middlesbrough. Add the pair of Dalesman-bodied coaches, and it was far from being an uninteresting fleet in the mid-60s!

Alan Murray-Rust

23/03/13 – 17:50

I went to De La Salle as well Ian, as you know and for shame was one of the mob of boys fighting to get on to a tram at the end of Scott Road for a while.The same tram transported me across the city to Abbey Lane where we lived back then. When the trams were replaced by buses on the 61/63 services instead, between Abbey Lane and Shirecliffe, I used to walk to and from Burngreave Road and could avoid the crush at Scott Rd. Also the tram replacement buses were the Roe bodied Leyland PD3s which I always thought were quality vehicles, even with their tin fronts. The other attraction, as noted elsewhere was the proximity of the bus stop to Burngreave Convent school for Girls! In reply to David O, if it was policy to keep us boys and girls apart it didn’t work as my wife was a student at Notre Dame, but we’re getting away from the subject here.

Stan Zapiec

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – OWB 866 – G56

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Titan PD2 - OWB 866 - G56

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/10
Leyland (previously H33/26R)

This is my only photo of G56 in action doing what it did so often in the 1960s, recovering an errant PDR1/2 Atlantean in this case on a very wet day in Leopold Street, Sheffield.
G56 was converted from fleet number 666 as a gritter/tow wagon in 1966. Three of the batch were put on one side for conversion, 662 as a tower wagon to replace AEC Regent CWJ 410 and 667 as a driver trainer but in the event only the gritter conversion went ahead. It was a standard Sheffield conversion, lop off the top deck, take away the drop rear frame extension and install a doorway into what was the lower deck gangway. Random buses were modified in this way over the years when the Transport Department had to stand on its own feet when snow fell as Local Authority road gritting was not commonplace.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

03/02/14 – 13:55

This type of conversion continued into PTE days with at least one ex Doncaster bus getting the treatment in addition to a number of ex Sheffield PD3s and an ex Severn of Duncroft example.

Chris Hough

03/02/14 – 17:09

Small point. It was originally a 58 seater. The first 59 seaters were the 1957 PD2s (ECW, Roe and Weymann).
Nice atmospheric shot of Leopold Street in its one way phase with the Town Hall and Beethoven House (and Wilson Peck’s music shop) in the far distance and the Education Offices in the near distance. The latter have been redeveloped into upmarket boutiques and restaurants – the bit out of sight on the West Street corner was what originally was a college which eventually became Sheffield University. Leopold Street was named after the Prussian Prince Leopold.
The broken down Atlantean had its body built in Sheffield. Why did so many Atlanteans fail in the ’60s? Sheffield bought around 100 PDR1/2s between 1964 and 1966 – by far the worst and least reliable of all Atlantean variants!

David Oldfield

04/02/14 – 07:46

What a wonderful old workhorse this machine was; in the heady days when Atlanteans were hove to all over the city, with engine covers raised and pools of oil gathering underneath, I doubt G56 ever really cooled down. I still consider it a great shame that this splendid old PD2 ended up getting scrapped and not preserved, even though half of it was already missing!

Dave Careless

04/02/14 – 07:47

The problem with the PDR1/2 seemed to be in the combination of Leyland engine and Daimler gearbox which didn’t appear to work very well, was it something to do with the power produced by the Leyland engine being too much for a gearbox designed to be coupled with a Gardner slogger? Certainly the Manchester examples never sounded quite right compared to either a PDR1/1 or a Gardner engined Fleetline. I used to enjoy travelling on the back seat downstairs on a BND-C or END-D PDR1/2 for an exciting combination of excessive heat and interesting mechanical smells!

Michael Keeley

04/02/14 – 13:44

OWB 866_2

Apologies for submitting a photo with myself in it, but I thought in this instance it might be forgivable. On holiday from Canada in the spring of 1984, I caught up with G56 in a sorry looking state at the SYPTE Meadowhall Training Centre in Sheffield, out of use and presumably awaiting the scrapman. Unfortunately, there was nobody in authority to whom I could beg, plead or otherwise come to an agreement with about acquiring the much coveted registration plate! Note that somebody has already taken it upon themselves to ‘rescue’ the ‘Leyland’ radiator badge! OWB 866 was thirty two years old by this time, had worked hard all its life, and didn’t owe anybody anything.

Dave Careless

04/02/14 – 13:46

According to my information, the power outputs of the engines contemporary with the Atlantean PDR1/2 were as follows. The Gardner 6LX developed 150 bhp at 1700 rpm, with a maximum torque of 485 lb. ft. at 1050 rpm. The corresponding figures for the later 6LXB were 180bhp at 1850 rpm, and 536 lb. ft. at 1050 rpm. For the Leyland engines in bus applications, these became, for the O600, 125 bhp at 1800 rpm, and 410 lb.ft. at 1100 rpm. The O680 gave 150 bhp at 1800 rpm and 450 lb. ft. torque at 1100 rpm. The ‘Power Plus’ O.680 gave 200 bhp at 2200 rpm, and 548 lb. ft. at 1200 rpm., but this engine was not employed in the Atlantean. These figures did sometimes vary with differing applications, but not by much. The Gardner engines were lighter than their Leyland equivalents, though not so compact in design. It is unlikely, therefore, that the torque of the Leyland engines was responsible for transmission problems in the PDR1/2.

Roger Cox

05/02/14 – 09:29

JOJ 211

Here is an ex Birmingham PD2 in use as a towing wagon, but in this case by a scrapman. Photo taken at Walsall depot, 1970
I don’t remember what the vehicle was being towed, but appears to have had an argument with a low bridge.

Tony Martin

05/02/14 – 13:54

Note in the background, yet another quaint destination on Walsall Corporation No.315 : “Boney Hay”.

Stephen Ford

06/02/14 – 06:36

It’s actually 815, a Leyland PD2/12 with Roe body. The destination is a reminder that Walsall, like neighbouring Wolverhampton, ran well outside its own boundaries.

Tony Martin

07/02/14 – 18:04

I wasn’t aware until this discussion that there was a known transmission problem with the PDR1/2. Leyland were aware of a weakness in the Daimler gearbox at that time, which caused them to refuse to supply PDR1/2s with O.680 engines in standard Atlantean fettle, but the standard O.600 should not have been a problem.
Manchester specified derated O.680s for durability rather than extra power, and had them rated at 130bhp. This was the same as the derated 6LXs in the Fleetlines, but I don’t have torque figures for either. As a passenger I did notice a tendency to slip in top gear, but that was no worse than on the Fleetlines.
I know exactly what Michael means about Manchester’s PDR1/2s not sounding “right”, but this seems to have been confined to Manchester, and was probably due to them having strangulated O.680s instead of standard O6.00s.

Peter Williamson

07/02/14 – 18:46

The Daimler gearbox of that era was not a very robust unit with excessive band wear evident resulting from poor driving standards (2nd gear restarts/full throttle gear changes). The Mk3 version with wider brake bands made a significant improvement about 1971 followed by a ‘self wrapping’ 2nd speed band by 1975 (we called these the Mk4 although this was not an official Daimler/Leyland classification). The Fleetline used a trailing link coupling between flywheel output and gearbox input throughout its life. This was intolerant of misalignment usually down to failing rear engine mountings, again these were substantially improved by the early 70s. I have never seen under the bonnet of a PDR1/2, does anyone know whether it used the Daimler coupling or a short propshaft between flywheel and gearbox? The Leyland 600/680 engine was shorter than a 6LX giving more space. All sorts of reasons why the PDR1/2 was so poor compared with the standard PDR1/1. (Memory suggests that the Leyland engine Fleetline used a short propshaft – mind you, they were never as good as the Gardner version)

Ian Wild

27/02/14 – 07:34

The reason that the PDR1/2 Atlantean model suffered problems was due to the adoption of an Albion Lowlander dropped centre axle
Daimler supplied the right angle drive gearbox, as the Leyland PDR1/1 design could not be used.
In Sheffield a fleet of 99 PDR1/2 chassis were ordered. Disaster occurred in 1965 when a late duty to Worksop by an East Lancs bodied PDR1/2 shed its rear axle gearing when the Albion designed unit broke up. All the Sheffield PDR1/2 buses were returned for repair and modification over many months.

Keith Beeden

27/02/14 – 10:55

As far as I’m aware, the weakness of the PDR1/2 was in leakage from the flywheel oil seal – this would be consistent with ‘pools of oil’ and ‘slipping in top gear’. The oil seal itself was presumably every bit as good as the ones fitted to other marques, so the implication is that there was something about the transmission which upset the apple cart. I do recall that with the PDR1/2s there was noticeable vibration at moderate to high revs in the indirect gears.

David Call

28/02/14 – 07:52

That’s interesting Keith. I hadn’t realised that the rear axle in the PDR1/2 was such a problem. No doubt Sheffield’s hills exacerbated the problem. Does anyone know if the weakness in the rear axle also affected Lowlanders.

Ian Wild

30/11/14 – 10:29

Topless Guy

In the picture of the Birmingham PD2 towing a bus at Walsall, could this be the bus behind. I had taken the photo at Wolverhampton Falling Road Depot in the late 1960s

Philip Savin