Sheffield Corporation – Old bus photos

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – NWE 561 – 361

From the Tom Robinson Collection

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Mann Egerton H30/26R

There have been many previous references to Sheffield PD2s including those bodied by Leyland, Weymann/MCW, Roe and ECW but as far as I know, the small but rare order for two buses from Mann Egerton hasn’t been mentioned. These buses enjoyed the usual thirteen year life with Sheffield prior to selling on. Tom Robinson of the Sheffield Transport Study Group comments and I quote “362 went via a Barnsley scrapman to Paton’s of Renfrew. Paton was so pleased with the bus he immediately tried to buy 361 which was at the same scrapyard. Alas it was in the course of being scrapped. In time ex 362 was cut down to single deck. The result of a fire, I think, and used as a tow wagon. They really were impressive and heavy vehicles. The saloon woodwork was especially opulent.”
Keith Beeden advises that although the original contract called for H30/26R, steps were taken shortly after delivery to change this to H32/26R possibly because Roe were seating H33/25R on their deliveries at the time

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Darwent

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

The Roe PD2s were the first of many bodies from the Crossgate works. They were NWE 586-594 but were delivered earlier, in 1951. I suspect the reason for both bodies being higher seating capacity was that they were (Sheffield’s) earliest vehicles to 27′ rather 26′ length.
Despite many comments to the contrary, even by eminent experts, there was a standard – but not standardised – Sheffield bus. [During most of the ‘fifties it was either a Regent or Titan with either a Weymann or Roe body.] It changed with time and the demise of certain companies but a lot of the post war interest was with the “distress purchases” when, especially Weymann, could not meet demand. Occasionally the distress purchases turned out to be gems – true of these two Mann Egertons. There are two magnificent green London Transport Ts on the Rally Circuit (9.6 powered Regal III – a single deck RT) which attest to the beauty and quality of Mann Egerton’s work.
Mann Egerton were better known as the Norwich Austin dealer and they bodied many early post war Austins as small coaches, but the London Transport work did no harm to their reputation and their balance sheet.

David Oldfield

13/09/12 – 07:05

Here is a picture of 362 with Patons: www.flickr.com

Stephen Bloomfield

13/09/12 – 08:33

Very handsome vehicle, especially in that fine livery. Had no idea that Mann Egerton had ever built d/deckers. Sad that 361 was broken up after such a short life: if they were heavy then they must have been pretty robust too.

Ian Thompson

14/09/12 – 06:29

Ian, they are supposed to be the only deckers they ever built. They did get as far as building underfloor coaches as well – including a pair of AEC Regal IVs for Creamline of Bordon Hants.

Stephen. Can’t find 362 on flickr.

David Oldfield

14/09/12 – 06:32

They were certainly unusual looking, and stood out, especially with that slightly recessed panel at the front where the destination boxes were, which was unique in the fleet. But to my mind, they weren’t nearly as handsome as the OWB-registered PD2/10’s (656-667) alongside which they ran regularly on the 69 service joint with Rotherham Corporation. I seem to recall the two Mann Egerton’s sat down at the back end quite noticeably, especially when they had a good load on, but perhaps that was just a perception.
Ironically, one of the PD2/10’s, 666, was cut down to a gritter/towing vehicle by STD, just like Paton’s ended up doing with the former 362, and in its sheared off form, G56, as it became, was kept busy for many years, considerably longer than the fourteen years it served as a bus, towing all kinds of disgraced rear-engined machines back to Central Works from wherever they’d decided to expire. And it always looked quite happy doing it!

Dave Careless

14/09/12 – 06:34

A smart bus, indeed – but does anyone know why these had the sunken destination screen box? I know some pre-war and early post-war Sheffield buses had this feature, but it was by no means universal. It would be interesting to speculate that, had Mann Egerton ever tried to sell d/d’s to LT following on from their successful PS1s, then this large screen box area would be almost the same proportions as that used for the roof-box RT!

Paul Haywood

14/09/12 – 06:35

A quicker link to the ex- 362 picture Stephen.
Debateable whether the Patons livery does the bus any favours though. www.flickr.com/

John Darwent

14/09/12 – 06:37

Is it just me, or can anyone else see a distinct resemblance to Roberts bodywork (also very heavy!) sct61.org.uk/da86 ?

Peter Williamson

14/09/12 – 06:14

Apparently Glasgow Corporation FYS 494 fleet number D66 was a Daimler CVD6 with a Mann Egerton H30/26R body, new in 1951, scrapped 1960 and rebodied with an Alexander body from FYS 488 fleet number D60 which was a Daimler CD650, (10.6 litre with power steering) but chassis scrapped, not a very popular bus that one.

Spencer

14/09/12 – 06:39

Glasgow Corporation received a Mann Egerton bodied Daimler CVD6 double-decker in 1951 – D66 (FYS 494).

David Call

15/09/12 – 07:08

You’ll be hard pressed to find many of today’s featherweight Eurobuses fit to be preserved in future years and yet in the fifties the professionals were complaining about buses being too heavy. [Please compare fuel mpg of a fifties half-cab with a Euro 5 diesel.]
Why do people eulogise the Mann Egertons and their contemporary Roberts Regent IIIs – let alone their mainstream Weymann and Roe cousins? They were beautifully made, well made and looked good. The lightweight Orion and similar PRV/Roe offerings were the reaction to these heavy bodies. I ask you, what would you prefer?

The recessed destination display was, indeed, a pre-war Sheffield feature. There are echoes in the 1949/50 Cravens/Regent IIIs – featured on this site earlier this year. The most interesting manifestation was on the immediate pre-war all Leyland TD5cs, which had to have non-standard small upper deck screens to accommodate it. It was also a feature of the 1936 Cravens/TD4cs and “broke” the blue line under the upper deck windows. Weymanns managed to get the display in without either recessing the display or breaking the line.
Some post-war bodies managed to “avoid the line” in the Weymann manner but most encroached into the line surrounding the number display without breaking it. Significantly, the 1953/4 PD2/Weymanns avoided the line, like their predecessors, but the subsequent 1954 Regent III/Weymanns “encroached” in the normal post war fashion. Hours of scrutinising photographs has not yielded a satisfactory answer to the question, Why?

Dave. Couldn’t agree more. 656-667 were my favourite PD2s.

David Oldfield

15/09/12 – 07:09

In Classic Bus 110 I asked if Sheffield was the only order for M.E doubledeckers. The reply, and a follow-up in Classic Bus 112 will probably interest those who have responded above.

Les Dickinson

15/09/12 – 07:11

The reason that Sheffield ordered the two Mann Egerton bodies is quite interesting.
In November 1949 a tender was advertised for 30 double deck buses, complete chassis and bodies or chassis only or bodies only.
At the time, all the STD PD2/1’s delivered since 1947, carried Leyland bodywork. The Leyland management advised the transport committee to “look elsewhere for bodywork”
In consequence, an intended order for 30 buses to the forthcoming new regulations of 27′ x 7’6″ was varied. The result was that an order for 10 NCB, 2 Roe and 2 Mann Egerton bodies were contracted.
Surprisingly, Leyland offered to supply 16 complete vehicles to the existing 26’x 7’6″ PD2/1 standard. Unfortunately, NCB ceased trading, and Roe were awarded another seven bodies. The balance of the outstanding 11 (9 Roe 2 Mann Egerton) were built on the PD2/12 27’x 8′ chassis, authorised in 1950. This batch of 11 replaced 13 trams for the City to Fulwood tramway abandonment. Therefore the original 30 require was reduced to 27. Quite a complicated situation!

Keith Beeden

15/09/12 – 07:13

I understood that Newcastle Corporation also had some Daimler CW’s rebodied by Mann Egerton

Stephen Bloomfield

16/09/12 – 06:50

So, Keith, Leyland were anticipating pulling out of coach-building that early and at the same time were already showing signs of their later take it or leave it attitude. Thanks for the insight.

David Oldfield

16/09/12 – 06:52

Stephen
You may or may not remember me from our time together at BCT, but that’s another story.

Newcastle Corporation had a batch of 5 Daimler CWA6 vehicles delivered between 1945-47 that received new Mann Egerton bodies in October 1950. They had been delivered new with second-hand bodies transferred from 1931 vehicles.

Kevin Hey

14/12/12 – 16:17

It is true that Newcastle had Mann Egerton Deckers , there were I believe three on Daimler chassis, possibly rebodies of chassis that had originally been fitted with pre war Metro Cammel bodies taken from scrapped earlier chassis, and also Glasgow had one Mann Egerton bodied Daimler, D66 I believe

Mr Anon

05/07/14 – 17:34

Mr Anon, Newcastle had 5 Mann Egerton bodied Daimlers, they were fleet numbers 1 to 5, JVK 421 to 425.

Peter Stobart

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – NWE 591 – 391

Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Roe H33/25R

The recent posting of a Sheffield Mann Egerton bodied PD2 fleet number 362 provided some interesting information on new bus orders about that time and here is one of the Roe bodied PD2/12 ordered at the same time as the Mann Egerton pair. These were very elegant looking vehicles with deep windows in both saloons and I think looked especially handsome in the C T Humpidge era livery with three blue bands. Interesting to note how Roe incorporated a variation of the standard Sheffield destination layout â€“ probably necessary because of the reduced depth available because of the afore mentioned deep windows. I well recall these buses replacing the Fulwood via Hunters Bar trams as the first programmed tram replacement scheme in January 1952. The new 88 bus route ran between the City and Fulwood with the City terminus being uniquely located in Eyre Street outside the Motor Vehicle Licensing Office (near the Central Library). This continued I believe until March 1954 when the 88 became a cross City service between Fulwood and Malin Bridge at the same time as the 81/82 bus routes replaced trams between Ecclesall and Middlewood.
Here is 391 in later life about to turn into Herries Road Depot on a summer evening in July 1967. The batch of nine were withdrawn the following year and 391 ended up inevitably with a Barnsley breaker.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

14/10/12 – 10:47

I am, of course, predisposed and prejudiced in this post. Magnificent body, excellent operator – and pretty good chassis!!! I never quite got to terms with the “heavy on blue” livery that all Roes were delivered in and generally preferred this scheme – which was always on repaint. Nevertheless, I also felt that these PD2s looked slightly bald in this scheme. Never actually rode on one and didn’t realise it was originally a City only service from Eyre Street. Only used the 60 to Crimicar Lane in my childhood – the 88 didn’t go up the hill!

David Oldfield

14/10/12 – 10:41

What I could never understand about the Sheffield fleet is this: all the views I have, bought ones or my own work relating to the bus fleet, show this style of livery. With the trams, however, and there are several preserved at Crich, if it was delivered in livery “A” it retained that livery throughout. If it was delivered in “B”, it retained “B” throughout. Only the 1953 ‘Roberts’ trams had this style. Can anyone explain the apparent reluctance to modernise the livery on the trams, when it seems to have been done on the buses?

Pete Davies

15/10/12 – 07:32

Pete, you seem to have an inaccurate memory – or information – about Sheffield livery. This scheme was introduced in about 1936 for the Domed Standard (tram) Cars and extended to AEC Regent/Weymann buses. It was extended to all buses eventually, pre-war, including Craven and Leyland bodied TD5 Titans. The livery was perpetuated after the war on the Roberts trams – the only trams bought after the Domed Standards and, of course, the last “first generation” trams. It was also the standard bus livery except, for some inexplicable reason, all Roe deckers, Leyland Farington deckers and the final “not” Farington Leyland body (which were delivered in the short-lived and disastrous green experimental livery). The Roe and Leyland bodies had far more blue paint but most, if not all, Roes were painted in the scheme shown at first overhaul. Yet another superb colour shot by Ian.

David Oldfield

15/10/12 – 10:00

Thank you, David. The source of my information seems to be incorrect!

Pete Davies

15/10/12 – 17:22

The whole vehicle is pure and classic Roe, except for the front upper deck windows which look a little odd, the way that the top edge looks lower than the side windows. No doubt it’s just the evening sun shining on the white dome but it made me look twice, I thought some alteration had been done. Still a superb bus though!

Chris Barker

15/10/12 – 17:23

And don’t forget the variant of the grey roof, David, which buses tended to acquire on first repaint. I’ve heard it said that the grey was made up in Queens Road by mixing the dregs of the cream and blue paint tins, but I’m not sure how correct that is. I think the practice ended after Chaceley Humpidge became GM in 1961, as he wasn’t a fan of the grey roof. Personally, I think the ‘Farington’ PD2’s in their ‘Roe’ style livery looked better than ever with the roof painted grey.
Oddly enough, the domed roof trams that inaugurated the ‘new’ livery had a variation of the grey roof, or at least acquired one eventually; perhaps in wartime in an effort to make the cars less visible from the air? If the grey was in fact a combination of the blue and cream, perhaps it was a conscious effort on the part of the paint shop to not waste a drop!!

Dave Careless

16/10/12 – 05:29

Dave, you are absolutely correct about the grey paint – actually called “smudge”. It gave a certain dignity to an already super livery. I do not know, and to my shame have not as yet bothered to find out, whether there was a policy about the smudge. My feeling is that it was applied before entry into service (whether or not by the coachbuilder or by STD) and lost on overhaul/repaint. I certainly feel that all the Weymanns (classic and Orion alike) on 26′ and 27′ chassis entered service with smudge roofs. The Domed cars probably likewise.

David Oldfield

16/10/12 – 11:45

I don’t know whether there was a wartime edict to paint bus roofs a less obtrusive colour . LPTB went from silver to grey to brown quickly. However, the dirt falling onto tram and trolleybus roofs from poles and wiring might well have been a consideration not to change back later.

Chris Hebbron

16/10/12 – 16:52

Grey roof painting was widely adopted on the outbreak of WW2. It was kept by many operations for a long time afterwards. For instance Manchester had its 1946 deliveries painted in this manner. When it converted its orders to 8′ wide vehicles they appeared with red roofs, the 7′ 6″ vehicles retained the grey so the bus washers knew how to set washer width. Few 7’6″ vehicles appeared in the “overall” red scheme but by that time the washers set themselves automatically.
Stockport cut back its grey from 1946 but retained the centre of the roof in grey for all deliveries up to and including the first batch of St Helen’s fronted PD2s in 1962. Frank Brimelow specified translucent roofs thereafter but all re-sprays of grey roofed vehicles received the grey until SELNEC took over.

Phil Blinkhorn

17/10/12 – 08:30

On the subject of grey or other colour for the roof, one of my former colleagues was a descendent of B C Baker of Birmingham City Transport. Birmingham had a sandy colour for their bus roofs, apparently as camouflage. My colleague suggested it was to confuse the Afrika Corps!

Pete Davies

17/10/12 – 08:31

This bus and its windows is reminiscent of Roe’s 8ft Doncaster 121 and 122 which were sold to Blue Ensign after 4 years because either they didn’t fit the streets (official) or the washer (Tony Peart). Did they also have the cranked seats and “high level” rear platform? It seems that Roe had a sudden urge to innovate…?

Joe

17/10/12 – 11:24

No, Joe, that was a Doncaster thing. The vehicles you mention are closer to STD 18/19; 113-119 – the 1952 four bay bodied Regent IIIs (my equal favourite with 1325 – 1349). Incidentally, Charles Halls has these PD2s (386 – 394) as 1951 and 361/2 (the Mann Egertons) as 1952. I always took this to be correct and that the Roes were late ’51 and the Mann Egertons early ’52.

David Oldfield

17/10/12 – 18:04

One further thought with respect to Sheffield’s penchant for grey roofs, a style that became a thing of the past after C.T. Humpidge took over. It occurs to me that it must have seemed a bit like deja vu to the new General Manager when he got settled into the chair at Sheffield in 1961.
Bradford’s fleet had grey roofs into the early 1950’s, when he took over the top job in that city, after which the roofs on the buses eventually became blue on his watch. When he took over the reins at Sheffield, and saw the tins of “smudge” on the shelves at Queens Road, he must have felt he was starting all over again!

Dave Careless

18/10/12 – 07:46

The Fulwood via Hunters Bar tram route that these buses took over from was converted to bus operation (service 88) on 5th January 1952 so this batch would almost certainly have been delivered in late 1951. I can only recall one Sheffield bus with cranked seats and this was all Leyland 651 of the 1949 batch (and then I think the lower deck only). Can the Sheffield people out there confirm this and what was the reason?

Ian Wild

18/10/12 – 10:44

Chieftain Buses of Hamilton acquired a second-hand ex-Sheffield TD5 Craven in the late 40s. BWB ###. The engine in this bus sounded different to any other TD5 I had come across. It surely could not have been a petrol engine? Any enlightenment?

Jim Hepburn

18/10/12 – 14:37

Leeds had one AEC Regent with staggered seats 700 NUM 700 a 1950 show exhibit which was LCTs second 8ft wide bus I have a vague feeling that these were removed and replaced with normal seating towards the end of its LCT life.

Chris Hough

19/10/12 – 06:32

The Sheffield livery variation on the Roe bodied vehicles has long been a talking point. The whole process was caused by the changes to the Leyland Farington PD2/1’s delivered in 1949. The mouldings below the lower deck windows were discontinued, along with upper beading. Leyland asked for a simplified livery in lieu of cream and three blue bands, for the high cost of lining out would be excessive.
AEC Regent Weymann FWJ 808 was used to trial a simpler paint style.
With a slight modification,this livery was adopted for the large intake of Farington PD2’s.
When the Roe order for PD2/12’s was placed, a similar situation resulted. The narrow lower deck waist rail would have unbalanced the lower deck blue band proportions, therefore a decision was made to adopt the Farington style. The new GM C.T.Humpidge took a dislike to the Roe livery in 1962 and repaints received the standard livery in due course. Remarkably, none of the Farington fleet were so changed in livery style.

Keith Beeden

24/11/12 – 06:50

Referring to Jim Hepburn’s post of 18th October, as the BWA to BWE range of registrations was limited to 1935, I would imagine that the vehicle he refers to would be a Leyland TD4C/Cravens which used the torque converter rather than a convention gearbox and was commonly known as ‘Gearless Bus’. The sound produced, as I remember, from like vehicles surviving into the 50’s resembled a long monotonous droning noise especially from a standing start.

Just to add to David Oldfield’s response to Pete Davies on the subject of liveries. For Pete to understand that trams delivered in Liveries A or B would retain that livery throughout is erroneous. Following the standardisation of Azure Blue and Cream circa 1936, numerous older trams previously wearing the Prussian Blue and Cream were repainted into the Azure Blue livery. In fact, one such tram, namely 150, delivered in Prussian Blue in 1930 was repainted into the ill-fated Green livery in 1952 and then Azure Blue shortly afterwards.

As regards the subject of the post, PD2 No. 391, my humble opinion is that it looks absolutely dreadful in the Humpidge interpretation of the standard livery. As Keith Beedon has explained, the Farrington style livery was applied to the Roe designs for good reason and looked nicely balanced on these elegant vehicles. The painting out of the dividing bar on the front destination box just added to the desecration but credit is due for restoring the cream roof. I would refer all to C.C.Hall’s ‘Sheffield Transport’ Page 263 to see just how superb 389 of the same batch looked when new. (I’m sure many of you will have this book but if not and you are ‘Up North’, there is a copy in the splendid ‘Search Engine’ Reference Library at the National Railway Museum at York)

John Darwent

18/12/12 – 17:37

Referring to Ian Wild’s post of 18-10-2012, Keith Beeden advises that Sheffield all Leyland 651 was fitted with cranked seats on both decks. These were supplied by Siddall and Hilton. Here is an extract from Commercial Motor of 8th December 1950- Article titled Innovation Components and Accessories
“More room with less seat” is the object of the new Sidhil-Morseat, manufactured by Siddall and Hilton, Ltd.. Sowerby Bridge, Yorks. Employing a cleverly cranked frame, this service-bus seat enables two passengers to sit comfortably side by side without encroaching on each other or on the gangway.
The outer half of the seat, apart from being set back, as in a normal cranked seat, is also turned slightly inward, so that the “gangway” passenger’s elbows are out of the way of the inside” passenger. A recess in the centre of the seat provides additional elbow-room, enabling both passengers to get at pockets for their fares without the usual difficulty.
Further, each person enjoys the full width of backrest and the “inner” passenger can more easily leave his seat without disturbing his neighbour. With this design, the conductor can move more easily about the bus, and is able, with less difficulty, to collect the fares from the window-side passenger.

John Darwent

19/12/12 – 07:29

Siddall & Hilton are still in business today in Halifax producing wire products, hospital beds and other ancillary equipment for the healthcare industry.

Eric Bawden

03/08/13 – 14:25

Long time since I visited this site , but thanks to John Darwent for info. on BWB Craven. By this time, it had a conventional gearbox but still sounded unusual.
Now another ex. Sheffield bus was WJ 9094. Any info.?

Jim Hepburn

04/08/13 – 10:40

WJ 9094 was a Leyland TD3c, fleet number 94, Cravens H31/24R. Arrived 1934, withdrawn 1941. Think chassis number was 3606.

Les Dickinson

06/08/13 – 06:05

Thanks Les about info. on TD3c WJ 9094. This bus was converted to a conventional gearbox and served with J. Laurie`s of Hamilton`s “Chieftain” buses plying between Hamilton and East Kilbride, and was not withdrawn till 1954.

Jim Hepburn

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

14/10/13 – 08:09

Referring to my post of 18-12-12 about the cranked seats in Sheffield PD2 No. 651, I have now had the opportunity to photograph probably the last pair of ‘Sidhil’ Morseats in captivity which are currently in Sheffield AEC/MCW ex 255, now preserved as ex-gritter G55 in the South Yorkshire Transport Museum at Aldwarke, Rotherham.These seats were the spare pair supplied with 651 and retained by Sheffield Transport Department after the bus was sold on.

John Darwent

15/10/13 – 07:08

Not quite the last set in captivity!. Doncaster 122, the beautiful AEC Regent 111/Roe restored by the late Tony Peart has these seats as well.

Andrew Charles

15/10/13 – 18:03

Splendid news Andrew, thank you for posting. Has 122 a full set, upstairs and downstairs, do you know? I wonder if any more are lurking in preservation.

John Darwent

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan – LWE 123 – 623

Copyright Dave Careless

Sheffield Corporation
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

The scene on the parking area at Pond Street bus station in Sheffield, in August, 1959, featuring a line-up of Sheffield vehicles, including one of the NCB bodied Crossley DD42/5’s, put to work as a driver trainer after withdrawal, and painted in the reversed livery of the service fleet. Nearest the camera is ‘A’ fleet (Corporation owned) 623 (LWE 123) a 1949 all-Leyland PD2/1, in the ‘Farington’ style livery with dark blue window surrounds, at the time operating from Greenland Road garage, and next to it is ‘B’ fleet (ownership shared by the Corporation and British Railways) 178 (SWE 278), an MCW bodied Regent III dating from 1954, and working from Bramall Lane garage, seen here resting after working in from the delightful Derbyshire hamlet of Castleton, famous for its limestone caves, on service 72.

The other two are both ‘A’ fleet buses, next to 178 being one of the 1948 Roberts bodied AEC Regent III’s, 327 (KWB 927) working from yet another of the Sheffield garages at the time, this one on the roster of Herries Road depot. Between 327 and the Crossley trainer is an unidentified FWA-registered Regent I dating from 1938, one of the eleven of a batch of fifteen vehicles (395-409) that were rebodied by Roe in 1952. These rebodied AEC’s somehow managed to retain their rugged pre-war appearance despite the much newer, stylish bodywork from the Crossgates works. On the radiators of the three Regents can be seen the sheet metal tabs that were often noted attached to the grilles of Sheffield buses, reading, as I recall, “STD – Do Not Drain.” !

This photo was taken as my mother and I were hurrying through the bus station on our way to the Midland Station to catch a train to London, on our way back to Canada after a summer holiday, having emigrated there the year before. I was just eleven years old at the time, and noting the magnificent line-up, implored my mother to take out the family Agfa and snap a quick shot! Not always quite so eager to please, she obliged on this occasion, and in so doing provided me with what was undoubtedly the first colour photo in my Sheffield collection, which has grown significantly since then! However, due to the circumstances in which it was taken, not one of the other views stirs the same poignant memories for me as this one does.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Careless

19/03/13 – 14:31

A very nice addition to the “Sheffield” page, Dave. Thanks for posting.

Pete Davies

19/03/13 – 14:47

Incredible Sheffield line up and, as usual, your comprehensive knowledge fleshes out the detail. [Two small points: Regent IIs were post war and Castleton is a village – hamlets have no church.] Do you ever get back these days?

David Oldfield

19/03/13 – 15:54

Thanks, Pete, glad you liked the picture. I realised a short while after I’d captioned the photo, David, that those FWA-Regents weren’t Regent II’s, I should have had my first edition of BBF No. 2 beside me for reference when I wrote it!!
Yes, I do get back from Nova Scotia from time to time, but probably not as often as I’d like. I was back for the 50th London Transport trolleybus event at Carlton Colville last May, (couldn’t possibly miss that) and spent a few enjoyable weeks in Sheffield as a guest of long-time friend and fellow Sheffield enthusiast, Paul Fox.
Remarkably, my aunt still lives in the same house in the east end of the city where I stayed during that summer holiday in 1959, and for the record, father’s old Agfa camera that took the picture, that he brought back with him from Germany after the war, apparently still exists in the care of the Photographic Society of Memorial University in St. John’s, Newfoundland!! What a pity that the buses it was pointed at on this overcast summer’s afternoon don’t exist along with it!!

Dave Careless

19/03/13 – 17:10

I don’t get back as often as I would like, Dave, and I only live in Surrey. I know of Paul, and have met him a couple of times – once when he brokered a second hand copy of Charles Halls book for me. Paul is better known by my closest school friend, Ian Manning.

David Oldfield

20/03/13 – 06:11

That’s interesting David, I wasn’t aware of the connection. I know Ian a little bit, he gave me a splendid run around Paisley one evening many years ago in a Clydeside Scottish Routemaster, truly expertly driven, one of the best RM rides I’ve ever had. Happy times!

Dave Careless

20/03/13 – 08:18

A great picture Dave. There were line-ups like this every day of the week. Different combinations all the time. Today’s wheeled boxes will never compare. Hope you have more to follow. Thanks for posting.

Les Dickinson

20/03/13 – 08:55

Well said, Les. Like the wheeled boxes. No sane person would “bad mouth” the (generally) well run and well kept fleets in London, Manchester or Birmingham. They were however, to quote a friend, boring in their ultra standardisation. Sheffield did have standard buses in that they had (the usual) dual sourcing policy from preferred suppliers. For many years this was Leyland and AEC – latterly Daimler when AEC deckers were no more. Weymann was a standard supplier until they folded in 1963. Alongside were Leyland and Craven pre WWII and then Roe in the ’50s. The interest was in the constant “odd” purchases and those unique to the JOC B & C fleets. The standards were still as high, if not higher than those in the standard fleets.

David Oldfield

20/03/13 – 10:04

Perhaps we’re biased David, but I loved the variety. I had a piece in Buses Yearbook 2012 about some of the unique and unusual buses in the fleets at Sheffield. Nothing too technical, just a layman’s notes really. Things like the Mann Egerton deckers, Strachans, Cawood, Craven bodies all added to the unique character. ECW bodies in a “municipal” fleet, Alexander bodies on 30 foot Regent Vs, Regent V fronts on Regent IIIs. Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be?

Les Dickinson

20/03/13 – 12:33

Enjoyed your piece in BY 2012, Les. I’m not going to apologise for being biased.

David Oldfield

20/03/13 – 12:34

I’m not convinced by David’s statement that the Manchester fleet suffered from ultra standardisation.
Between 1950 and 1964 (the end of front engined, rear entrance deliveries) there were no less than 3 basic designs from MCW (Post War Standard, Phoenix and Orion) plus Atlanteans and Fleetlines and the Orions alone had 3 different versions – 4 if you want to be picky – plus umpteen variations of window vents making many individual vehicles look different, not to mention two versions of Cave Brown Cave heating/cooling.
In addition there were 2 different Northern Counties body styles, 2 versions of the standard Leyland body and Manchester’s modified Burlingham bodies on Leyland and Daimler, each looking different.
Add in the trolleybuses, Post War Standards of two body widths on Leyland, Daimler and Crossley and anyone on the street in Manchester would be faced with a wide variety.
By 1964 Manchester had also changed the front end of its rear engined vehicle deliveries and it was only 4 more years until the Mancunians arrived adding to the variety.

Phil Blinkhorn

20/03/13 – 16:19

Excellent – taken before my time in Sheffield, but the LWE and SWE batches were still active in 1965.
I came through Castleton on Saturday, and the 72 bus is recognisable as the 272, now running every hour.

Geoff Kerr

20/03/13 – 16:28

I think its safe to say that the only Yorkshire municipal operator who had a standardised fleet at that time was Todmorden with all Leyland Titans, all the others had something different. Bradford rebodied second hand trolleys. Doncaster trolleybus bodies rebuilt for motor buses. Halifax a very mixed fleet triple sourced chassis plus the odd Loline and Albion saloon for good measure. Huddersfield no corporation motor buses until the sixties the JOC had Guy saloons. Hull dual door trollies a big influx of second hand deckers to ease the way to one man operation. Leeds a very odd collection of saloons three chassis types for eight buses triple sourced chassis polished bonnets. Middlesborough ECW bodied Leylands and Guys Dennis Lolines. Rotherham single deck trolleys all rebuilt to double deck. Sheffield has already been discussed and the aforementioned. Todmorden and the companies were just as exiting even THC owned WYRCC ran pre-war Bristol Ks until well in the sixties. Now we have the ubiquitous Wright bodied deckers and little of real interest to those of a certain age!

Chris Hough

20/03/13 – 16:36

Les, the variety you mention that was so much a part of the Sheffield scene back then was, as you say, very much in evidence every day, and I needed to go no further than the bottom of the small cul-de-sac where my aunt lived, which ran off Owler Lane, to witness it.
Not only were there PD2’s like 623 here, on the 17 service, which had only just supplanted the trams, and themselves replaced the following year by first generation Atlanteans and then again later by the magnificent Roe-bodied PD3’s, there was a steady stream of Cravens, Roberts and Weymann bodied Regent III’s on the peak hour workers services, shuttling between the large housing estates of Southey Green and Parson Cross and the miles of giant steelworks at Brightside and Templeborough.
And just a few yards down the road were even more wonderful Regents, turning every few minutes at the Reform Chapel to head back along Petre Street to the city, and out the other side to the more fashionable suburbs of Graves Park and Hollythorpe Rise. On Saturdays, just to liven things up, the new 30-footers would often get on there as well, both Weymann and Alexander ones. To sit there on the stone wall and watch it all go by was really quite magical.

Dave Careless

20/03/13 – 17:45

My maternal grandmother lived on Woodhouse Road (Intake) and we saw her every Saturday. My little stone wall was by the shops at the junction of Woodhouse Road and Mansfield Road, Dave. AECs on the 95 and 41, lowbridge Orions on the 15/19/21, various PD2s on the 23. [Not to mention EMMS 3 and 46.] Even half an hour, free of the family, on the stone wall was bliss.

David Oldfield

20/03/13 – 17:46

In my run down of the Yorkshire municipals and their oddities I forgot to mention Teeside Railless who pinned their hopes on the trolleybus for their entire existence and beyond, they rebodied many trollies and had some ex Reading ones at the very end. Equally their motor bus policy was a straight Leyland/Roe one unlike their immediate neighbours Middlesborough who quickly went to Fleetlines with NCME bodywork.

Chris Hough

21/03/13 – 06:14

To follow on from Chris’s recent post, around these parts (which I shall call “Youhill-land”) I find that the attire of the staff now provides more interest than the vehicles: “high-vis” or not; jeans or uniform (?) trousers; baseball cap – First (and who decided that a baseball cap was appropriate uniform issue?) or random – or not; woolley hat – see previous – or not; there seem to have been so many changes of uniform over the years that I can’t actually work out whether uniform or “smart casual” is being worn, but the permutations/combinations seem endless; tinted sunglasses/mirrored sunglasses of myriad styles – even in sunless winter; and whoever might be accompanying the driver – offspring, girl/boy-friend, wife, friend, “random pick-up” – draped over front dash.

Philip Rushworth

21/03/13 – 06:17

Dave Oldfield, you forgot the Chesterfield contribution of Titans on the 62/4, also passing your look-out post on the wall, and what about the Sheffield Regent III’s on the 25 Beighton, 26 Killamarsh, 30 Eckington. That wall must have seen much excitement over the years. Were you still there when the EMMS Alexander Lowlanders started passing by?
Happy Days.

Les Dickinson

21/03/13 – 10:54

Yes, Les, I had forgotten – but it’s fifty years of decline (mine and the buses) which has passed in the interim. Lowlanders? Not sure. The sojourn on my wall ended after my translation to (the original) King Edward VII School. …..but Oh the memories.

David Oldfield

21/03/13 – 17:30

David, another strategically placed stone wall was at the bottom of Burngreave Road, at Firvale. There was all kinds of activity there, including Tracky, West Riding and Yorkshire Woollen buses on the 65 group of services, but best of all the KWA-PD2’s pounding up the hill towards the city every few minutes on the 150/151. The trams shuttling between Meadowhead and Sheffield Lane Top made for a spectacular sight at this location as well, not to mention the full range of splendid sound effects.

Dave Careless

22/03/13 – 07:44

…..and Burngreave Vestry Hall could almost combine both of them – but I’m not convinced there was a suitable wall upon which to perch.

David Oldfield

22/03/13 – 07:46

I well remember the KWA registered batch of PD2s on the Shiregreen services. My Grammar School was at the top of the long climb from Pitsmoor and I decided that the 150/1 to Bridge Street was a better bet than the almighty crush to board a tram into the City (who says we schoolboys were better behaved in those days? – at least we didn’t use the foul language commonplace on school journeys nowadays – probably didn’t even know it!) Back to the buses, the initial 537-557 batch of PD2s had green rexine across the top of the lower saloon front bulkhead whereas the later ones had this area painted cream. Just a small detail but it somehow made them that much more different. Later when I started work I was placed for a time at Ecclesfield which involved journeys on Yorkshire Traction’s PS2 rebodies and later PD3s on the 65 service.

Ian Wild

22/03/13 – 09:09

Firth Park, Ian? Had an interview there – but no-one in Sheffield wanted me and I started my teaching career at Stretford Grammar School. Before then, often enjoyed the delights of Tracky PD3s when visiting relatives in Barnsley and also regularly visited a friend of my father at Pitsmoor/Firshill at the top of the hill between Firvale and Burngreave.

David Oldfield

22/03/13 – 10:18

The inclusion of 178 (SWE 278) in the picture raises another point. This was one of thirty-six similar buses delivered in 1954. Twelve for the A fleet were straight forward, ie 724-735 (SWE 424-435). The others were two for the C fleet, 1154/5, and twelve for the B fleet, 178-199. The registration plates were not issued in line with fleet numbers. SWE 254/5 were issued to 188 & 199, whilst their expected plates (SWE 288/99)went to 1154/5. Presumably this was due to delivery dates vs their “needed on fleet” dates. Can anyone give a definitive explanation of this anomaly please?

Les Dickinson

22/03/13 – 16:29

Can’t help Les, but your maths is shaky. 179 – 199 is twenty-two, not twelve. It was these I was most used to in the Greenhill/Lowedges area.

David Oldfield

22/03/13 – 16:30

I might be able to, Les. According to friend and long-time Sheffield observer and enthusiast, Keith Beeden, due to their long-distance work, it was decided to fit the two ‘C’ fleet examples, 1154/5, with saloon heaters to provide some passenger comfort in winter. Problem was, somebody at Queens Road made a mistake and the heaters accidentally got fitted in the wrong buses, 188 and 199!! Rather than mess about with the heaters any more, the simpler solution was to swap the two buses that had received them with the two actual ‘C’ fleet examples, which ended up in the ‘B’ fleet, bearing the numbers of the two which had been switched out.
Which just goes to prove that if you look long and hard enough, you’ll find there’s usually a reason for everything!! Towards the end of its life, SWE 299 made a memorable last trip to Bradford, organised by local enthusiasts, and once it got into its stride, acquitted itself very well despite its advancing years, and the jeers and taunts from the crews of other buses on the service that it encountered along the way!!

Dave Careless

22/03/13 – 16:31

I used to be a pupil at firth park Grammer from 62-67. It was on the way home where I learnt the skill of jumping off the bus as it went from Haymarket onto High St. It was a Policeman on point duties at the time, no traffic lights. The tram replacement no 75 (via Burngreave to Sheffield Lane Top), were AEC 5 Regents, Roe & Alexandra bodies. Many were garaged at Brammall Lane. I remembered them being delivered. The no 17 to Sheffield Lane Top (via Attercliffe & Page Hall Road) were all Leylands with Roe bodywork. There was a fatal accident on Page Hall Road, no 475 I think. The picture in the paper at the time showed no damage to the bus!

Andy Fisher

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

23/03/13 – 07:38

Has anyone any info. on the BWB reg. TD5s with Craven bodies?

Jim Hepburn

23/03/13 – 07:39

David O – no, I went to De La Salle Grammar on Scott Road at Firshill.

Ian Wild

23/03/13 – 09:05

Deep apologies, Ian. Taught at a Catholic Public School down here in Surrey and discovered that the father of two of my pupils was a De La Salle boy. [A friend, Old Edwardian, is Head of Music at Notre Dame. Was it deliberate to have them as far apart as possible at either end of the city?]

David Oldfield

23/03/13 – 16:06

Going back to Chris Hough’s comments about standardisation, particularly the TRTB bus fleet: Although it is true that all purchases from the late 1950s onwards were the Leyland/Roe combination, the all-Leyland buses (4 PD1A, 12 PD2/1) that formed the immediate post-war fleet renewal formed more than 50% of the bus fleet until the arrival of the 1965 Leopards. As late as 1967 they could still be found doing duty on the ‘T’ service into Middlesbrough. Add the pair of Dalesman-bodied coaches, and it was far from being an uninteresting fleet in the mid-60s!

Alan Murray-Rust

23/03/13 – 17:50

I went to De La Salle as well Ian, as you know and for shame was one of the mob of boys fighting to get on to a tram at the end of Scott Road for a while.The same tram transported me across the city to Abbey Lane where we lived back then. When the trams were replaced by buses on the 61/63 services instead, between Abbey Lane and Shirecliffe, I used to walk to and from Burngreave Road and could avoid the crush at Scott Rd. Also the tram replacement buses were the Roe bodied Leyland PD3s which I always thought were quality vehicles, even with their tin fronts. The other attraction, as noted elsewhere was the proximity of the bus stop to Burngreave Convent school for Girls! In reply to David O, if it was policy to keep us boys and girls apart it didn’t work as my wife was a student at Notre Dame, but we’re getting away from the subject here.

Stan Zapiec

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – OWB 866 – G56

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/10
Leyland (previously H33/26R)

This is my only photo of G56 in action doing what it did so often in the 1960s, recovering an errant PDR1/2 Atlantean in this case on a very wet day in Leopold Street, Sheffield.
G56 was converted from fleet number 666 as a gritter/tow wagon in 1966. Three of the batch were put on one side for conversion, 662 as a tower wagon to replace AEC Regent CWJ 410 and 667 as a driver trainer but in the event only the gritter conversion went ahead. It was a standard Sheffield conversion, lop off the top deck, take away the drop rear frame extension and install a doorway into what was the lower deck gangway. Random buses were modified in this way over the years when the Transport Department had to stand on its own feet when snow fell as Local Authority road gritting was not commonplace.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

03/02/14 – 13:55

This type of conversion continued into PTE days with at least one ex Doncaster bus getting the treatment in addition to a number of ex Sheffield PD3s and an ex Severn of Duncroft example.

Chris Hough

03/02/14 – 17:09

Small point. It was originally a 58 seater. The first 59 seaters were the 1957 PD2s (ECW, Roe and Weymann).
Nice atmospheric shot of Leopold Street in its one way phase with the Town Hall and Beethoven House (and Wilson Peck’s music shop) in the far distance and the Education Offices in the near distance. The latter have been redeveloped into upmarket boutiques and restaurants – the bit out of sight on the West Street corner was what originally was a college which eventually became Sheffield University. Leopold Street was named after the Prussian Prince Leopold.
The broken down Atlantean had its body built in Sheffield. Why did so many Atlanteans fail in the ’60s? Sheffield bought around 100 PDR1/2s between 1964 and 1966 – by far the worst and least reliable of all Atlantean variants!

David Oldfield

04/02/14 – 07:46

What a wonderful old workhorse this machine was; in the heady days when Atlanteans were hove to all over the city, with engine covers raised and pools of oil gathering underneath, I doubt G56 ever really cooled down. I still consider it a great shame that this splendid old PD2 ended up getting scrapped and not preserved, even though half of it was already missing!

Dave Careless

04/02/14 – 07:47

The problem with the PDR1/2 seemed to be in the combination of Leyland engine and Daimler gearbox which didn’t appear to work very well, was it something to do with the power produced by the Leyland engine being too much for a gearbox designed to be coupled with a Gardner slogger? Certainly the Manchester examples never sounded quite right compared to either a PDR1/1 or a Gardner engined Fleetline. I used to enjoy travelling on the back seat downstairs on a BND-C or END-D PDR1/2 for an exciting combination of excessive heat and interesting mechanical smells!

Michael Keeley

04/02/14 – 13:44

Apologies for submitting a photo with myself in it, but I thought in this instance it might be forgivable. On holiday from Canada in the spring of 1984, I caught up with G56 in a sorry looking state at the SYPTE Meadowhall Training Centre in Sheffield, out of use and presumably awaiting the scrapman. Unfortunately, there was nobody in authority to whom I could beg, plead or otherwise come to an agreement with about acquiring the much coveted registration plate! Note that somebody has already taken it upon themselves to ‘rescue’ the ‘Leyland’ radiator badge! OWB 866 was thirty two years old by this time, had worked hard all its life, and didn’t owe anybody anything.

Dave Careless

04/02/14 – 13:46

According to my information, the power outputs of the engines contemporary with the Atlantean PDR1/2 were as follows. The Gardner 6LX developed 150 bhp at 1700 rpm, with a maximum torque of 485 lb. ft. at 1050 rpm. The corresponding figures for the later 6LXB were 180bhp at 1850 rpm, and 536 lb. ft. at 1050 rpm. For the Leyland engines in bus applications, these became, for the O600, 125 bhp at 1800 rpm, and 410 lb.ft. at 1100 rpm. The O680 gave 150 bhp at 1800 rpm and 450 lb. ft. torque at 1100 rpm. The ‘Power Plus’ O.680 gave 200 bhp at 2200 rpm, and 548 lb. ft. at 1200 rpm., but this engine was not employed in the Atlantean. These figures did sometimes vary with differing applications, but not by much. The Gardner engines were lighter than their Leyland equivalents, though not so compact in design. It is unlikely, therefore, that the torque of the Leyland engines was responsible for transmission problems in the PDR1/2.

Roger Cox

05/02/14 – 09:29

Here is an ex Birmingham PD2 in use as a towing wagon, but in this case by a scrapman. Photo taken at Walsall depot, 1970
I don’t remember what the vehicle was being towed, but appears to have had an argument with a low bridge.

Tony Martin

05/02/14 – 13:54

Note in the background, yet another quaint destination on Walsall Corporation No.315 : “Boney Hay”.

Stephen Ford

06/02/14 – 06:36

It’s actually 815, a Leyland PD2/12 with Roe body. The destination is a reminder that Walsall, like neighbouring Wolverhampton, ran well outside its own boundaries.

Tony Martin

07/02/14 – 18:04

I wasn’t aware until this discussion that there was a known transmission problem with the PDR1/2. Leyland were aware of a weakness in the Daimler gearbox at that time, which caused them to refuse to supply PDR1/2s with O.680 engines in standard Atlantean fettle, but the standard O.600 should not have been a problem.
Manchester specified derated O.680s for durability rather than extra power, and had them rated at 130bhp. This was the same as the derated 6LXs in the Fleetlines, but I don’t have torque figures for either. As a passenger I did notice a tendency to slip in top gear, but that was no worse than on the Fleetlines.
I know exactly what Michael means about Manchester’s PDR1/2s not sounding “right”, but this seems to have been confined to Manchester, and was probably due to them having strangulated O.680s instead of standard O6.00s.

Peter Williamson

07/02/14 – 18:46

The Daimler gearbox of that era was not a very robust unit with excessive band wear evident resulting from poor driving standards (2nd gear restarts/full throttle gear changes). The Mk3 version with wider brake bands made a significant improvement about 1971 followed by a ‘self wrapping’ 2nd speed band by 1975 (we called these the Mk4 although this was not an official Daimler/Leyland classification). The Fleetline used a trailing link coupling between flywheel output and gearbox input throughout its life. This was intolerant of misalignment usually down to failing rear engine mountings, again these were substantially improved by the early 70s. I have never seen under the bonnet of a PDR1/2, does anyone know whether it used the Daimler coupling or a short propshaft between flywheel and gearbox? The Leyland 600/680 engine was shorter than a 6LX giving more space. All sorts of reasons why the PDR1/2 was so poor compared with the standard PDR1/1. (Memory suggests that the Leyland engine Fleetline used a short propshaft – mind you, they were never as good as the Gardner version)

Ian Wild

27/02/14 – 07:34

The reason that the PDR1/2 Atlantean model suffered problems was due to the adoption of an Albion Lowlander dropped centre axle
Daimler supplied the right angle drive gearbox, as the Leyland PDR1/1 design could not be used.
In Sheffield a fleet of 99 PDR1/2 chassis were ordered. Disaster occurred in 1965 when a late duty to Worksop by an East Lancs bodied PDR1/2 shed its rear axle gearing when the Albion designed unit broke up. All the Sheffield PDR1/2 buses were returned for repair and modification over many months.

Keith Beeden

27/02/14 – 10:55

As far as I’m aware, the weakness of the PDR1/2 was in leakage from the flywheel oil seal – this would be consistent with ‘pools of oil’ and ‘slipping in top gear’. The oil seal itself was presumably every bit as good as the ones fitted to other marques, so the implication is that there was something about the transmission which upset the apple cart. I do recall that with the PDR1/2s there was noticeable vibration at moderate to high revs in the indirect gears.

David Call

28/02/14 – 07:52

That’s interesting Keith. I hadn’t realised that the rear axle in the PDR1/2 was such a problem. No doubt Sheffield’s hills exacerbated the problem. Does anyone know if the weakness in the rear axle also affected Lowlanders.

Ian Wild

30/11/14 – 10:29

In the picture of the Birmingham PD2 towing a bus at Walsall, could this be the bus behind. I had taken the photo at Wolverhampton Falling Road Depot in the late 1960s

Philip Savin

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – LWE 113 – 613

Sheffield Corporation
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

There’s a bit of a bus jam in Sheffield High Street on 9th October 1965 as 613, one of the large batch of A fleet all Leyland PD2s leaves the stand for a trip to Millhouses. It takes three Inspectors to peruse the Alexander Regent V in the background, hope they move out of the way before the member of the small batch of 1952 all Leyland PD2/10 manages to squeeze past the back of the queue and continue its journey. This little scenario (minus Inspectors) was re enacted last Wednesday in exactly the same place as I passed by – quite a coincidence! Sheffield’s all Leyland PD2s all put in a good innings, at 16 years old 613 looks in fine fettle.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

04/02/16 – 16:58

Strange how Sheffield used two different liveries for differing bodywork designs. The three blue bands was probably the standard but most of the Roe bodies and these Leylands had blue around the windows. The big city fleets tended to be very standardised and bordering on the boring with large batches of buses that looked more of less the same. Sheffield was the exception as they purchased smaller batches of widely varying vehicle types right up to being absorbed into the PTE. A very interesting and always well turned out fleet. We had civic pride in those days.

Philip Halstead

05/02/16 – 14:54

On the subject of civic/local pride First has repainted buses in Leeds and Bradford into former operators liveries. For some reason these are always immaculately turned out by their respective garages unlike some of the standard liveried stuff Makes you think eh.

Chris Hough

06/02/16 – 06:57

Other Chris H – Have found a Bradford one – //tinyurl.com/h2n27cm – very smart!

Chris Hebbron

06/02/16 – 18:01

First certainly did Sheffield proud with retro-painted Geminis to celebrate the motor bus centenary in 2013. The superb paintwork depicted both old and new style of livery – a splendid selection of photos can be found at – www.flickr.com/photos/

John Darwent

06/02/16 – 18:02

A great photo Ian, brought back lots of memories! Having spent what might be described as my formative years in Sheffield I can only endorse the comments made about the variety of the fleet, though our local route 61/63 was almost always provided with the Roe bodied Leyland PD3s which replaced the trams. From memory, the buses were usually well maintained and clean inside (apart from the nicotine stained ceiling of the upper deck before smoking was banned)! Perhaps the presence of a conductor made a difference? Now living in Dorset and using First in Weymouth, I have to say that the buses are usually clean inside and out as well.

Stan Zapiec

07/02/16 – 07:17

The images of the First fleet in Sheffield using the older liveries just goes to show how awful the current so-called liveries are. The old ones had style and dignity, and looked good as well.

David Wragg

08/02/16 – 06:33

Nice photo! I visited relatives in Sheffield in the 1960s so delighted to see this. Was the very small plate on the radiators a note that the bus was `antifreezed`? Can’t remember!

Steve Milner

08/02/16 – 16:24

The ‘three blue bands’ vs the ‘blue window surrounds’ wasn’t the only variation to be found in the Sheffield livery either. On first repaint, buses had their roofs painted smudge grey instead of the cream they were delivered with, as seen in this photo of the same all-Leyland PD2, 613, laying over in Castlegate, alongside the River Don. I’ve heard it said that the shade of grey was actually derived from mixing the residue of the blue and cream paint tins.
In Ian’s photo of the bus, taken in its later years, the bus is seen to have had its original cream roof restored, part of the modifications made to the livery in the ‘Humpidge’ era of management. When C.T. Humpidge, formerly at Bradford, took over as General Manager from R.C. Moore in 1961, he made moves to do away with the practice of painting the roofs grey, and Roe bodies eventually lost their blue window surrounds, although intriguingly none of the Leyland ‘Farington’ style bodied PD2s so treated ever did, and retained their ‘blue window surrounds’ livery to the end. Humpidge also had matt black applied between the destination apertures to form a so called ‘consolidated display’, a move that still generates fierce debate amongst some older Sheffield enthusiasts even fifty plus years later!!
And yes Steve, that small plate affixed to the radiator read “STD – Do Not Drain”

Dave Careless

10/02/16 – 06:17

If the ‘consolidated’ destination was controversial, why did they not go all the way and just have a single line? Almost all photos that I have seen have one of the two screens showing blank and I have yet to find a reason for two of them being fitted!

David Todd

10/02/16 – 16:32

David – from memory there were a few destinations that required the use of both screens, Dore via Brocco Bank and Beighton Handsworth are two that come to mind. Also I think the lower blind had (generally) City services whilst the longer distance services (generally) appeared on the upper blind. Note that on the photo above from Dave, Shirecliffe is on the top blind (exception proves the rule) whilst on the bus behind, 97 Southey Green used to have via Longley Lane on the lower screen hence its appearance on the top screen.

Ian Wild

11/02/16 – 06:23

Fulwood via Rustlings Road was another, Ian. I remember being fascinated as a kid, on shopping trips into the city, seeing these PD2s storming along Fargate showing Roscoe Bank or Brocco Bank, they seemed like exotic destinations to me at the time, I don’t know why!
Ironically, even though they had the two apertures on the side over the platform, on route 1 they sometimes had to resort to carrying a red board with white lettering in the last nearside lower saloon window, reading ‘via Elm Lane’

Dave Careless

11/02/16 – 06:24

To emphasise Ian’s point, both blinds were used on a number of routes, 61/63 Beauchief and Woodseats Circular with Circular in the lower display spring to mind together with 74 Greystones Norton. So I think both blinds were in pretty frequent use.

Stan Zapiec

13/02/16 – 05:27

Or neither in use – instructions for the Stocksbridge locals were to “show blank” . . . despite “Garden Village” being available. If you follow this link //forum.sy-transport.co.uk/thread/13424/destination-blinds-lists (South Yorkshire Transport Forum, History, Destination Blinds) you’ll find listings from various destination blinds, including (if you work through the pages) various Sheffield Transport upper and lower and Y-type blind sets.

Philip Rushworth

12/06/19 – 06:37

Sorry, what’s this “B” fleet thing? Was there an “A” fleet as well, why?

Mark Chawner

12/06/19 – 10:53

…and a C Fleet as well! Others can explain better but it was all to do with the involvement of the railway companies.

Joe

12/06/19 – 12:41

Sheffield was a Joint Omnibus Committee where A fleet was wholly owned by Sheffield Corporation and operated within the city boundaries, C fleet was owned by the railways (LMS & LNER) and broadly speaking operated long distance routes often terminating at or near railway stations far afield. B fleet was jointly owned by corporation and railways and usually operated beyond the city boundaries but not so distant as C fleet. As might be expected there were many variations to this and buses from the B fleet especially could be seen on many A & C routes, buses from A fleet would often be seen on C fleet routes and a periodic mileage / income balancing would take place. Popular routes with hikers and ramblers would use vehicles from all fleets at peak weekends and Bank Holidays. See C.C Hall’s “Sheffield Transport” for a more detailed explanation. My very favourite fleet!!

Les Dickinson

Greyhound – Leyland Tiger PS2/1 – MWA 761 – 107

Copyright Ian Wild

T D Alexander (Greyhound) Sheffield and Arbroath
1950
Leyland Tiger PS2/1
Strachans C32R

Sheffield bought eight of these buses in 1950 for the B fleet. Their O.600 engines gave them an enhanced performance compared with the earlier PS1s. These were the only Strachans bodies bought by Sheffield and were the last new half cab single deckers in the fleet. Five lasted until 1961 (including this one) and the other three until 1962. Seven were bought by Greyhound, the eighth vehicle becoming the first ever mobile library in the City. By the time this photo was taken in 1966 at Greyhound’s Surbiton Street depot deep in the east end of the City at Attercliffe, MWA 761 (ex Sheffield 61) had become a tow wagon with most of the seats removed.
Why did Sheffield go to Strachans for this odd batch having previously bought Weymann and a few Cawood bodies for their post war single deck half cab purchases? Probably cost? At least some of the batch were used from Herries Road Garage on the Stocksbridge local services 257 and 357 where steep hills abounded. According to the PSV Circle, all were delivered with B34R seating but 62/3 later became C33R whilst 60/1 became C32R. Another oddity, why two different variants of ‘coach’ seating?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

27/02/12 – 07:28

It could have been cost or it could have been availability. If you wanted a few buses in a hurry in the late 1940s you didn’t go to a high-volume bodybuilder, as they were all snowed under with orders. Incidentally I’ve never heard of Cawood. Does anyone know anything about them?

Peter Williamson

28/02/12 – 08:06

I’m pretty sure Cawood were based in the West Riding, somewhere in the Wakefield area. They built ten bodies for Sheffield A and B fleets on Leyland Tiger PS1 chassis in 1948/9. They were contemporaries of similar Weymann bodies supplied on Leyland PS1 and PS2 and AEC Regal. I had forgotten until I was looking up the above that Sheffield also had three PS1 chassis bodied by Wilkes and Meade in 1948 – were they a subsidiary of Wallace Arnold?

Mr Anon

28/02/12 – 08:07

From the deepest depths of memory… Cawoods were a transport firm, possibly in sand & gravel near Doncaster. Cawoods (same??) also had the Rootes dealership in the town in the 50’s. Any connection? “Greyhound” buses around Sheffield got the prize for the most ironic name.

Joe

28/02/12 – 08:08

T W Cawoods & Sons were based at Bentley, near Doncaster. I don’t have exact dates when they were active but they did six rebuild jobs for J Bullock & Sons (1928) Ltd over the period 9/44 to 5/49.

MikeB

28/02/12 – 08:08

I commented on these rare beasts elsewhere on a Strachans conversation. Didn’t really know them (only knew Herries workings well when the 42/53 came to Low Edges) but wasn’t aware they’d ever been made into coaches. Do you KNOW Ian, or is it anecdotal? What is certainly true is what Peter said. Until 1950 Sheffield sourced bodies from Weymann, Cravens and Leyland and after that time from Weymann and Roe until about 1962. In the post war period 1945 – 1950, the preferred builders (of all operators) were unable to keep up with demand – they were often exporting to Government dictate – leading to operators going wherever they could to satisfy their requirements.
Other than in this context, I’d never heard of Cawood but I believe they were a little like Wilkes and Meade who also built post war Tigers for Sheffield. Wilkes and Meade were a Leeds firm who were bought by Wallace Arnold and, after building and rebodying many vehicles for WA, eventually became their body shop – and sunk into oblivion. Roberts provided pre war bodies for Sheffield and then some post war AECs and the last trams, Crossley provided chassis and bodies for anyone in need (!) and NCBs last gasp included about 40 bodies for Sheffield. The quality of the latter was suspect but death duties killed the company who’s physical assets (raw material and machinery) were bought from the receiver by Charles H Roe – so a slight continuum from the 1950 AEC/NCB through the 1950s and 1960s Roe bodies for Sheffield.

David Oldfield

28/02/12 – 17:05

The reason for the conversion to coach seating, at least for some of them, was probably for their use on the Lakeland Tour, on which they performed before being ousted by the Leyland Leopards. I have a photograph of several of them lined up outside the Strines Inn, which was a refreshment stop on the tour. I went on it one summer Sunday with my grandmother, on a new Fanfare bodied Leopard coach, but this machine was likely already in Greyhound’s yard painted red by then.

Dave Careless

28/02/12 – 17:26

David, my information about reseating is taken from the PSV Circle Sheffield fleet lists dated May 1959 and October 1973 both of which refer to fleet numbers 60-63 as ‘later reseated to C33R /C32R’ (as appropriate).

Mr Anon

29/02/12 – 07:08

There you are. You can teach an old dog new tricks – I stand corrected. If they were coach seated, did they ever do Manchesters?
11 or 12 years was a very creditable first life after the introduction of under floors.

David Oldfield

29/02/12 – 14:26

Yes, David, they did do Manchester’s, and here’s a photo of 63 at Exchange Street about to undertake a trip on the 48; intriguingly, just across from Sheffield Victoria and the electric service through Woodhead tunnel to the same city. They were also active on the service 39 via The Snake as well.

Dave Careless

29/02/12 – 17:25

Thanks Dave – but look what’s behind, a 1952 Regent/Roe rebuild from the 1938 batch of Regent/Cravens!
Regrettably the 48 went from Pond Street and was operated by North Western by the time I used it regularly.

David Oldfield

01/03/12 – 07:48

Thanks, Dave Carless, for the evocative photo of 63. I used to travel on the 48 with my parents to visit relatives ‘over there’. I can recall the Leyland Olympics on the service when they were new (despite being A fleet buses), a comment I still recall from my mother being that we would travel on a front engined bus ‘as the new ones smelled of diesel fuel’. That was in the days of duplicates, triplicates, quadrupilcates etc etc on the 48. The Strachans bodied PS2s always seemed to me to be superior vehicles and the photo of 63 confirms that view even after all these years. A very elegant looking bus.

Ian Wild

03/03/12 – 17:14

The Strachans bodied PS2’s were also regulars on the the 44 Bakewell via Bamford. They were the height of comfort on the 2 hour trip on the 48 to Manchester – when compared to their predecessors, the Weymann bodied PS1’s. They were a very smart comfortable bus and by couldn’t they fly over Moscar Top

Jerry Wilkes

03/03/12 – 17:37

PS2’s were real flying machines. I don’t remember the Sheffield ones – it was a part of Yorkshire I rarely visited, but my local operator Hebble had six PS2/3’s with Willowbrook DP bodies (BCP 826-830) and boy, could they shift ! At the local Wakes holidays Hebble would employ all sorts of vehicles on the Halifax to Scarborough service, but a PS2 would leave everything else in a cloud of dust, and by the time the Royal Tigers, Regal IV’s and Reliances got there it would be parked up, emptied, cooled down its driver would have finished his dinner and be ready to set off back. Great buses. The Sheffield one shown looks really elegant to me. Strachans had a bad reputation though after the war – did these suffer the same reputation ?

John Stringer

03/03/12 – 17:46

As I said, I had very little contact with these buses but as someone who drives both preserved buses and modern coaches big (engines) is best – so I would expect them to be superior beasts (especially when compared with PS1s). What really puzzles me is why Sheffield had so few PS2s when they waited for PD2s (and by-passed the PD1) for mountainous Sheffield. The Peak District is hardly LESS mountainous!

David Oldfield

04/03/12 – 16:28

One of the former Hebble PS2s, BCP 829 Willowbrook B33F, found its way to Great Yarmouth Corporation, and Geooffrey Hilditch recounts a splendid tale about this bus in his book “Steel Wheels and Rubber Tyres” Vol 2. On one summer Saturday, he received an urgent request from a Midlands operator for a duplicate coach from Great Yarmouth. PS2 No. 17 was the only vehicle available, and when it arrived on the pick up point, this “old fashioned” lady became the subject of much derisory comment from the Bedford driving fraternity, who decided to give No.17 a head start so as not to embarrass the Great Yarmouth driver too much by leaving him well behind. Off went the well loaded PS2, and the Bedford contingent finally caught up with it at the mid point refreshment stop, where they learned to their chagrin that the Great Yarmouth driver had completed his trip, and was now on his way back home.

Roger Cox

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

05/03/12 – 07:54

In halfcab times, there was usually a big difference in performance between single-deckers and double deckers with identical specifications. The PS1 was generally regarded as satisfactory for most purposes, which the PD1 never was (except by expert clutch-stoppers such as Chris Youhill!). Similarly I’ve even heard it said that Crossleys worked well as single deckers!

Peter Williamson

07/03/12 – 08:29

The Sheffield Strachans PS2s Nos 56 to 63, MWA 756 to 763, were new in 1950 and I believe were the last half cab saloons supplied to Sheffield. They lasted until 1961/2 which was pretty average for the species. In fact, No.56 was converted into a mobile library for Sheffield City Libraries in 1962 and went on to serve in that capacity until January 1971 when it was sold for scrap. Sheffield’s six all-Crossley SD42 saloons lasted from 1947 to 1962 adding credence to Peter W’s comment above.

John Darwent

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Tiger PS1 – KWJ 103 – 103

Sheffield Corporation
1949
Leyland Tiger PS1
Cawood B34F

When the Sheffield Strachan-bodied Leyland Tigers were discussed in a previous posting there was mention of a couple of batches bearing Cawood bodies. 103 was one of five for the Joint Committee (B fleet) another five were delivered to the Corporation (A fleet). I think this is parked outside Leadmill garage, waiting its turn for the washer and refuelling as was the norm at Leadmill. If my memory serves me well, the 29 at that time was for Ringinglow, which was a Leadmill route. Behind is TD5/Cravens H55R of 1937 which by the time of the pic was an instruction vehicle. This picture appears in Sheffield Transport by Chas.C. Hall, though I bought mine from RHG Simpson.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

27/12/12 – 17:05

No. 27 was the Ringinglow route Les. No.29 was a City (Fitzalan Square) to Blackburn (Shardlow’s Works) and was jointly operated with Rotherham CT Dept.

John Darwent

27/12/12 – 17:23

Another example of a ‘B’ fleet bus on a Corporation ‘A’ route.
Would Leadmill garage have that many ‘B’ routes other than Chesterfield via Dronfield and Holmesfield?

Andrew Beever

28/12/12 – 06:40

I believe that the 29 to Blackburn (not the one in Lancashire!) required single deck buses because of a low railway bridge just off Ecclesfield Road. Rotherham used to use centre entrance Bristol single decks for their contribution to the service.

Ian Wild

28/12/12 – 06:41

These PS1’s were allocated to Townhead Street, and I’m pretty sure that’s where this picture is actually taken, on the parking area at the side of the garage where a lot of Townhead’s single-deck allocation were frequently parked, along with several of the training buses. The workers 29 service was, I believe, originally a Townhead duty that eventually ended up being the responsibility of East Bank.

Dave Careless

28/12/12 – 06:44

I rather think the location is Tenter st where single deckers were parked alongside the garage wall as was the norm.

David Grant

28/12/12 – 11:01

Thanks for the info everyone. Leadmill had several B routes Andrew. My home route was the 83 to Birley. Holmesfield (86??) was another, 57 Bradway another. Happy New Year to you all.

Les Dickinson

29/12/12 – 07:00

Interesting that 29 was an “A” route, although it ran outside the city boundary, likewise 69 to Rotherham. I think this was because these ran direct from the city into Rotherham Corporation’s area and did not enter the “B” area.

Geoff Kerr

30/12/12 – 07:21

Les, I’m sure it was a typo, but the 59 was the Bradway route.
Putting B fleet buses on A fleet routes was not unusual as they were jointly owned and could be deployed as required – if not required on B duties. Indeed, at times of heavy transport usage, A fleet buses would be used on B and, sometimes, C fleet routes – especially Easter and Whit Bank Holidays.
B and C fleets were for Railway (rural) routes outside the city area. 29 and 69 were joint agreements with a neighbouring (operating) authority rather than a route taken over with the railway agreement.

David Oldfield

30/12/12 – 07:21

Nobody seems to have asked the vital question.Who were Cawood and where did they come from? Did they build other bodies?

Philip Carlton

30/12/12 – 08:36

David, As a boy I could remember every single route. However there have been many changes since, and I’ve moved around the country a lot. Somewhere along the way I lost my fifties and sixties timetables so depend a lot on memory. (Now what was I saying?) Oh yes, what you say is absolutely correct. I’ve been at Bakewell on a Bank Holiday weekend and seen buses from all three fleets arriving there. My home route, 83 Birley, was a B route but now and again would have one of the 700 series Regents on there. At that time the 95 to Intake was covered by the 700/800 Regents with an odd appearance of a 1200 series Regent. Prior to moving away with my job in 1967 I never ever saw a Leyland on the 95 though I have seen pictures of this since then. 95 was also a Leadmill route. Phillip, there is some explanation of Cawood in another article (about Sheffield’s Strachan bodies I think).

Les Dickinson

30/12/12 – 08:36

Good point, Philip…..

David Oldfield

30/12/12 – 08:49

Dave Careless and David Grant comment on Townhead Street and Tenter Street garages. These were one over the other and in Sheffield’s tram days Tenter Street housed trams. “Sheffield Transport” by Chas Hall shows a line up of the superb Roberts trams on the last day of tram operation by the city.

Les Dickinson

31/12/12 – 17:19

If I remember correctly from my student days in the 60s, all five Sheffield depots in operation then had a mix of A and B routes, but the C routes were concentrated at East Bank and Townhead Street.
Bramall Lane depot was before my time in Sheffield so I don’t know the position there.
Naturally this wasn’t part of my university course and I had to work it out for myself!

Geoff Kerr

01/01/13 – 07:09

There was nothing quite as fascinating as a bus garage when you were a schoolboy bus enthusiast. Being a Rotherham lad, I spent many hours peering through the railings outside the Corporation depot at Rawmarsh Road, but stumbling across one in Sheffield that had trams in the basement and buses on top was truly mind boggling. I’d never scribbled numbers down quite that fast before!
All the Sheffield garages were something special back in those days; Leadmill Road, with the castle-like turrets at each each side of what had been the main doorway when it was Shoreham Street tram depot, was a fascinating building, and the then modern garages at Herries Road and Greenland Road, although perhaps not as architecturally pleasing, were truly a sight to behold late at night, with lights blazing and the forecourts stuffed full of AEC’s and Leyland’s in that remarkable Sheffield livery. Talk about nirvana.
All these years later, in Canada, I have a purpose-built glass-fronted display cabinet in the lounge, full of EFE’s and the like on several shelves. Granted it’s only a display cabinet, but after dark, when I plug in the subdued fluorescent lighting in it, it immediately ceases to be a model cabinet and magically becomes Herries Road garage in 1964!!

Dave Careless

01/01/13 – 07:10

Les. Like you, I am baffled – having only memories of AECs on the 95. [Presumably we have both seen the same picture of a PD2/Weymann.] My maternal grandmother lived on Woodhouse Road and the 95 was in weekly use!
I think Bramhall Lane had Chesterfields before Leadmill – they certainly had the 13** Regent Vs that ran them.
I “left” in 1971, but still have brothers, aunts and uncles whom I visit – as I did last week. I was day-dreaming of Regent IIIs and Chesterfield PD2s passing by my hotel on Chesterfield Road (in the grounds of what was once Jordanthorpe School). Well I am getting old and nostalgic…..

David Oldfield

01/01/13 – 11:18

Does anyone know when Lincs Road Car started their joint service 85 with SJOC between Sheffield and Gainsborough by any chance ? Was it late 60`s ?
Visiting Sheffield to see relatives in the early sixties , I was amazed with the variety in the bus station . Blue Crossley training buses, new Atlanteans ( wow ! ) lots of different types of AECs – nice livery and red wheels . Dead classy I thought !

Steve Milner

01/01/13 – 13:31

The transfer of certain ex Sheffield ‘C’ routes including the 85 was made on 1st January 1970, exactly 43 years ago!

Andrew Beever

01/01/13 – 13:38

Is this an urban myth? I was once told that when the Tories were in power on the City Council the wheels were painted blue and when Labour was in power the wheels were painted red!!!

Philip Carlton

01/01/13 – 16:34

I’ve read this but apparently blue wheels first appeared on the 1966 delivery of Atlanteans when Labour controlled the City Council. The change back to red occurred because no doubt someone decided they looked better.
Service 85 became jointly operated by Sheffield Transport, Lincolnshire Road Car and East Midland as part of the disposal of the JOC C fleet, most of which went to the NBC, as you say, 43 years ago.

Geoff Kerr

01/01/13 – 16:35

Philip no urban myth, I don’t think there was enough time to paint all of them blue.
I must confess I liked the red ones better
Better still one of the local golf courses managed to renegotiate it’s lease with the council at that time.

Andrew Beever

01/01/13 – 17:30

Cheers for the info re the 85 . I have seen a few photos of LHs and REs on the route – no MWs though .

Steve Milner

02/01/13 – 07:28

Some years ago, when the Big Ben’s clock face was being renovated, they found that the black numbers were originally blue. There was some discussion about returning them to blue in the interest of historical accuracy, but Labour objected because it would favour the Tories, so black remained. Childish? Yes! True? Oh, Yes!

Chris Hebbron

02/01/13 – 07:29

Although the agreement relating to the sharing-out of “C” services between Sheffield Corporation and NBC came into effect on 01.01.1970 joint operation of the Gainsborough service didn’t start until the 18th – in the interim period four former “C” fleet Leopards were loaned to the Corporation to maintain the service. Thereafter, Sheffield provided one full-day and two part day duties from Greenland Road (generally using AEC Swifts which had been downseated to provide extra luggage capacity), East Midland provided two all-day duties from Worksop depot (generally using Leopards or REs), whilst Lincolnshire provided one all-day duty from its Retford depot (initially using a newly-allocated LH, but replaced the same year by an RE). Lincolnshire closed its Retford depot on 01.05.72, when most duties on the 85 transferred to Gainsborough depot, though a couple of buses were out stationed at East Midlands Retford depot.
Sheffield continued to outstation one bus at Retford, formerly used on the 85 pre-1970, until the end of April 1972: in recognition of their long service the Retford crew that used to work the 85 were given a duty at East Bank garage which allowed them to run light from Retford to South Anston each morning to pick up service on one of the Dinnington routes to run into Sheffield, work other routes as required, change buses, run back out to South Anston in service, and then light back to Retford – this arrangement ended when the conductor retired, after which the driver travelled to and from Sheffield as a passenger on the 85 to work as a spare driver, until he too retired the following year.

Philip Rushworth

02/01/13 – 09:04

Les, I have found my box of time tables and I have a Sheffield 11/63 to 05/64 #182 if you want to know anything just ask.

Peter

02/01/13 – 14:26

The timetable shows that through passengers on 85 had to change buses at Retford as double-deckers could not work to Gainsborough. In 1969 single-deckers began to run throughout and the 85 was operationally linked to a short A route to Parkway Markets (121).
This practice continued after the 85 had become joint, resulting in the odd sight of an East Midland bus working a Sheffield City service “on hire” – but the Lincolnshire bus did not apparently take part.

Geoff Kerr

05/01/13 – 05:44

Thanks Philip and Geoff for the extra info – great !

Steve Milner

08/01/13 – 07:41

Peter, thanks for the note on timetables – I’ll keep that in mind for my next “starter for 10”. A fascinating garage was Eastbank as it had an extensive roof-top parking area which was often used by withdrawn vehicles, each with the Sheffields lettering / insignia and fleet numbers blacked our prior to sale or disposal.

Les Dickinson

18/01/13 – 16:55

I can recall the rather unusual Cawood bodied Leyland PS1’s running out of Pond Street in the early 50’s on the 21 route to Swallownest via Catcliffe and Treeton. I seem to remember they were used on short workings to Treeton on occasion.

Jerry Wilkes

24/03/13 – 08:03

The very first vehicle to receive blue wheel hubs was No340, Atlantean/Park Royal the Earls Court show vehicle of 1964. The Daimler Fleetline/Park Royals which were delivered that same year had the normal red hubs as did the Neepsend bodied Atlanteans of 1964/5. However, all vehicles delivered during 1966 Atlantean/Park Royal, Atlantean/Neepsend and the Craven bodied Bedford had blue wheel hubs and this was the year in which the Tory party was in charge. Incidentally, No340 was the first in the fleet with blue moquette seats on both decks, the Fleetlines being red/beige on lower deck and red leather upstairs.

Trev Weckert

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

15/02/14 – 06:03

On the subject of Cawoods, it is worth noting that just after WW2 the Thames Valley company was so desperate to rebuild many of its war-worn fleet that a number of them were sent all the way up to Cawoods, including Harrington-bodied Leyland Tiger TS8 coaches and some of the Tiger TS3 and TS4’s re-purchased after being with the military. Full details are in my History of the Thames Valley Traction. Co. Ltd. 1931-1945 and 1946-1960 volumes.

Paul Lacey

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Tiger – MWA 757 – 57

Copyright R H G Simpson

Sheffield Corporation
1950
Leyland Tiger PS2/1
Strachans B34R

Despite the low fleet number, 57, this was a B fleet vehicle. The computer hadn’t taken over yet. This was one of a batch of eight delivered in 1950. Seen here in Pond Street Bus Station before the concrete and glass version. It could be cold and breezy then but us northerners are made of stern stuff. Ready for service 6 to Kiveton Park in this view but I remember boarding one of these to Eyam on one occasion in the dim and distant past. Photo bought from R H G Simpson many moons ago.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

10/02/13 – 08:06

Sheffield bought hoards of PS1 Tigers from 1947 but only eleven PS2s. These were a last (half-cab) gasp, the three Weymann examples had been delivered earlier. Apart from the PS1s, there were Weymann/Regals and apart from Weymann PS1s there were five Wilkes and Meade and ten Cawood, already seen on these pages.

David Oldfield

11/02/13 – 07:10

These used to my favourite Sheffield half cab single deckers. I always thought they looked really elegant-but that was from the frontal aspect. This photo shows them to have deep side skirt panels with correspondingly shallow saloon windows. A childhood impression shattered in one photo!!! The 6 to Kiveton Park would be converted to double deck operation in the mid 50s with the arrival of the lowbridge Weymann bodied AECs.

Ian Wild

11/02/13 – 10:19

Yes Ian, but with the 0.600 they would shift…..

David Oldfield

11/02/13 – 10:21

Nice view, Les, but you seem to have caused distress to at least one reader. Go and sit in a darkened room for a week, Ian. You might feel better! I had similar thoughts years ago about a particular steam locomotive. After first seeing it, I spent many years under the impression it was an A4, but it wasn’t . . .

Pete Davies

12/02/13 – 07:03

Yes David, superb performers on the 48 to Manchester

Ian Wild

12/02/13 – 07:04

Going “off piste” mention of A4, I was surprised when I saw a photo of the controls lay out of the recently built “Tornado”, that the controls were exactly the same as the 2-6-2 LNER, Doncaster built tank engine No. 498 which usually pulled our school train to Hamilton (which we sometimes rode illegally on the footplate)

Jim Hepburn

12/02/13 – 10:42

Oh the joys of living pre Health & Safety, Jim.

David Oldfield

12/02/13 – 14:49

On the theme of pre Health & Safety, my friend John Whitaker and I had the free run of climbing into the drivers’ cab of any of the buses at the Bradford Corporation Ludlam Street bus depot on a Sunday morning when it was quiet and there were no bosses around. We were given this freedom by a good neighbour who was a mechanic there, but with the strict instruction not to press the starter button of any of the buses which we pretended to drive. We were still about 11/12 years of age at this time, but what wonderful freedom and trust given by our parents and our neighbour Tony.

Richard Fieldhouse

12/02/13 – 14:50

Ah but never forget, even pre-Health and Safety, it was officially “strengst verboten”! OK Pete, you can’t keep us in suspense any longer. What was the quasi-A4 really and where did you see it? One of the streamlined “East Anglian” B17s or the seemingly jinxed W1 rebuild?

Stephen Ford

12/02/13 – 17:01

An A3, actually, Stephen! 60095 FLAMINGO, at Carlisle in about 1960 or 61. I am supposing it had come off the Waverley route. Looking at views of the two types now, I can understand where I went wrong! It was because of the shape of the firebox. Ah, well!

Pete Davies

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Olympic – RPA 771 – 211

Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Olympic HR44
Weymann B44F

Sheffield bought three early Leyland Olympics in 1951 and followed up two years later by the acquisition of this former Demonstrator. It put in a good service life lasting until 1968 when it was sold to Dodd, (Dealer) in Dromera, Ireland. I wonder if it found a buyer or whether it was scrapped? The bus was originally fleet number 211 being renumbered as shown in the 1967 scheme. This photo was taken on 10th June 1967 at the Hillsborough terminus of the 31 Lower Walkley service which was characterised by narrow streets and steep hills.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

25/04/12 – 05:16

I think I remember these in Sheffield: were they the “integral” versions? Some had an Olympic torch badge on the front, I think. They always seemed high-floored (the opposite to what you could expect) and a bit awkward, but presumably suited the route.

Joe

25/04/12 – 05:17

From 1952 until 1956 I lived on the 31 and travelled on these and the back loader Royal Tigers. This is now a terminus for Stagecoach 52 and is also close to where the Malin Bridge branch leaves the main Supertram line to Middlewood.

David Oldfield

25/04/12 – 08:36

Can anyone tell me what size engine were in these Olympics please. I believe the King Alfred Olympic that is currently being restored and nearing completion was rescued from Ireland. I always thought it was a great shame that one of the Halifax Corporation Worldmasters were not saved for preservation especially fleet No1 – KCP 1 what a great registration number! Two of these vehicles ended up in Ireland with Keneallys coaches.

Richard McAllister

25/04/12 – 09:20

The Olympic was the integral predecessor of the Royal Tiger and shared all the same mechanical units – including the 9.8 litre 0.600. They were high floored and probably awkward – but what else would you expect of an early underfloor vehicle? [The open backed Royal Tigers 222/223 were even more awkward.] As for suiting the route, they only suited it for the operator (dimensions and power for a hilly route) certainly not passenger friendly – especially the aged and infirm. Passenger comfort only became a priority from about ten years later when technology and new designs allowed it.

David Oldfield

25/04/12 – 15:27

Yes- they looked like the ugly sisters in the sixties- especially as you say, the Tiger rear loaders. My point is that I assume in an integral bus you are not fixing a body to a one-size-fits-all chassis and could therefore make some allowance for the passengers… or what’s the point (I think that was the problem- there wasn’t one…?… or was weight reduced?) What were the advantages? You were presumably stuck with the basics of the original body for good?

Joe

25/04/12 – 16:33

Modern integral buses are monocoque, just like cars (which also used to have separate bodies/chassis)and, I think, are almost universal nowadays. You’re right, though, Joe, you picks your body length, they bold on all the mechanicals and you’re stuck with it. London Transport’s tram/trolleybus department, separate from its bus department, created integral trolleybuses around 1937, using several companies to build them, including Brush and Leyland. Strange how long it took for this system to begin to become popular, around the time when Olympics were coming off the lines and said trolleybuses were starting to go to the scrapyard!

Chris Hebbron

25/04/12 – 16:37

Leeds single deck requirements were few in post war years indeed they only bought 10 saloons in the fifties but managed to have three chassis types! These were 5 AEC Reliances 3 Leyland Tiger Cub and a pair of Guy Arab LUFs. All had the same body layout which was B34C + 14 crush load standees in a central vestibule opposite the doors. Like Sheffield’s Royal Tigers the steps were vertiginous and deep most off putting for intending passengers. Getting a push chair aboard was a major logistical exercise! The overall body shape was common to all ten but the final pair of Reliances had a more upright profile. They were mainly confined to two routes one of which passed under a low bridge and another which crossed the canal on abridge with weight restrictions.

Chris Hough

25/04/12 – 17:39

Joe, the intention with all early integrals was to save weight – it was impossible to be passenger friendly until the dawn of the rear-engined bus. Unfortunately, all of the major manufacturers found that the weight saving margin was no where near enough and that, quite the opposite, there were major weaknesses – often around suspension mountings. This was certainly true of the Bristol LS which transformed after five years into the almost identical MW chassis. Similar problems beset the AEC Monocoach which died out in favour of the Reliance. The other problem was that British operators preferred, and still do, to choose their own bodywork – cf the Leyland National of later years. Ironically the change from LS to MW and Monocaoch to Reliance were not so evident as the separate body chosen for the separate chassis tended to be identical, in all other respects, with the earlier integral body. [Come to think of it, many moved over to the Royal Tiger with identical Weymann coachwork!]

David Oldfield

25/04/12 – 17:39

Just wait until someone discovers the advantages of “demountable” bus bodies: bodies can be changed or swapped on a “chassis”, giving greater flexibility, more opportunities for upgrading, and cutting service times. Why didn’t anyone think of that before?

Joe

26/04/12 – 06:14

1904 is beyond most people’s memories, Joe.

David Oldfield

26/04/12 – 11:39

There were demountable bodies in the early twenties, Joe, although they were usually in the form of exchangeable lorry/charabanc bodies. It never carried over, though into exchangeable bus bodies, to my knowledge, at least, not in a big way.

Chris Hebbron

26/04/12 – 11:40

Nice one, Joe. However, the idea of demountable bodies does actually go back a long way. Maidstone and District started in 1911 with three Gilford chassis; these had bus bodies during the day which were changed for lorry bodies at night. I believe the lorries were used to carry vegetables to and from Covent Garden. I’m sure there are plenty of other examples elsewhere, too.
No doubt David is right when he talks about weight saving being a factor in the development of integrals, but I rather suspect that other motives in early post-war attempts were to use parts from pre-war chassis, and to generate extra work for the maker. Beadle, of course, were prominent in this field; others included Harrington and Saunders-Roe.

Roy Burke

27/04/12 – 07:22

I remember this bus from my student days and wondered why there was an odd one with a Surrey registration.
It would have demonstrated for Weymann, who were based at Addlestone. Evidently it was never fitted with standard Sheffield blinds. I never rode on the 31 although I had “digs” near Crookes on the 52 route.
The open-platform Royal Tigers used on the same route looked odd and a bit reminiscent of Edinburgh; I think the local Inspectorate had something to say about the arrangement.

Geoff Kerr

27/04/12 – 08:39

Yes, Geoff, there were responsible for the fitting of the odd looking emergency door at the rear – NEXT to an open rear platform!
Roy, what said is true but Weymann and Park Royal never did a Beadle with second-hand parts.
I type this about my home town of Sheffield from two miles up the hill from Addlestone. Funny old world.

David Oldfield

27/04/12 – 09:34

And I, a Surrey-ite, who long ago moved away, still visit my brother in Ottershaw, just across the M25 from you, David. Incidentally, whatever happened to Weymann’s works? I assume it no longer exists.

Chris Hebbron

27/04/12 – 10:35

Well, for the initiated Chris, I’m typing IN Ottershaw itself! [Funny AND small world.] Until I retired a year or two back, I passed it on the way to school – St George’s College – but ever since the turn of the millennium it has been a deserted, speculative, office block awaiting tenants. All glass and security guards with nothing to do! You must know that Addlestone Garage is a gated development (yes, in Addlestone) and the Co-op long ago made way for Tescos.

David Oldfield

28/04/12 – 08:48

A remarkable coincidence, indeed, David!
Pardon my irony when I say that the changes you mention pass, nowadays, as progress. The supreme one, though, is the gated development!
My abiding memory of Ottershaw is the Aldershot & District Dennis Lances passing by to and from Woking and the occasional ride on them as part of my journey from Portsmouth by rail.
Lovely buses. The whole area was a hotchpotch between London Transport and A&D and you could never be sure what company’s bus would pop out from some side turning.
Also, Ottershaw was the last/first telephone exchange in the London Area and I would use a callbox there to make calls to my London relatives at local call rates. Some would say miserly, I call it ‘being careful’! Happy days.

Chris Hebbron

28/04/12 – 14:47

You could have been a Yorkshireman!!!

David Oldfield

20/07/12 – 15:48

One of the benefits of the open platforms was that passengers could “hop off” whilst the vehicle was approaching the stop, preventing the driver having to do steep hill starts. The conductor would be ready with his finger on the bell to let the driver know he did not have to stop. No H&S in those days, conductors encouraged it. I got very good at jumping off buses coming up Haymarket to turn right up high street on my way home from school. I believe that is why London kept the Routemasters so long, people could hop on & off where they liked, speeding journey times.

Andy Fisher

21/07/12 – 07:38

Is that Haymarket, Sheffield, Andy?

David Oldfield

21/07/12 – 12:10

While the subject of bell-ringing comes up (not campanology, silly!) I recall, post-war, the LT conductors giving three rings to signify to the driver that the bus was full up and he could ignore queues at future stops until some passengers got off. Standing was unlimited post-war, I seem to recall, or the limit was ignored, then became eight, and eventually five. Admittedly, buses engines/brakes are more powerful (the latter more vicious, too!) but it was amazing how much more fluid passenger movement was then. They moved around the vehicle, up and down stairs and got on/off the platform effortlessly ‘whilst the bus was in motion’, moved around the vehicle. Despite my advanced years, I’m still fit, yet wouldn’t do those things now, apart from moving to the exit before the bus stops and that with great care and a tight grip on stanchions!
I used to love travelling on worn-out LT/ST’s, overloaded beyond belief. Juddering clutches, slow acceleration in waves, the vehicle leaning alarmingly round any corner. Despite all that so-called gentleness, an aunt of mine failed to stop me, as a baby, from falling out of her arms when she was climbing the open staircase of an LT and being caught by a surprised man, unharmed, so they say! Some of you might regret this, boring you with such tales!

Chris Hebbron

23/09/17 – 07:02

Regarding the bells, I was a conductor in Sheffield, with a good driver you became a good team and could trust each other, so not just quick bells for passengers getting off but when the last passenger had one foot on the platform and one hand on the pole it was ding ding, if in doubt assist them on with their spare arm. Yes for us three bells was full up and a shower of bells was emergency stop. We didn’t like the passengers using the bell because it sometimes confused things, we preferred the request of next stop please verbally.

Pete

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Leopard – 1502 WJ – 1002

Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1959
Leyland Leopard L1
Weymann Fanfare C41F

This bus delivered as B fleet number 1302 was one of the first batch of six Leopards to enter service in the autumn of 1959. They made quite a stir being completely different from anything that had been purchased previously (if you exclude the one off AEC Reliance / Roe Dalesman of 1958 but which was not used on normal service for several years). 1302 was renumbered to 1002 in 1967. The Weymann Fanfare coaches were never converted for OMO whilst in Sheffield service and the photo shows 1002 complete with conductor reversing at the Dungworth terminus of the occasional 107 service on a lovely summer Sunday evening in May 1967. The 107 was an extension of the main service 7 to Stannington, another of those services to outlying hamlets which Sheffield seemed to specialise in and which made it so different from many other Municipal Operators. 1002 was withdrawn along with the rest of the batch in 1971 and was sold to Tiger Coaches (dealer) in Salsburgh, Scotland.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

15/06/2011 15:59

I have fond memories of these Fanfare bodied Leopards in the mid sixties.
My aunt and uncle used to keep the Dog & Partridge Inn at Bordhill on the climb to Woodhead pass and I spent many happy school holidays there. These coaches and the ECW bodied versions made the refreshment stop at the pub when working the X48 Sheffield/Manchester service and they were always crew worked.
I still have in my possession a letter from the Sheffield general manager thanking them for the hospitality shown to the crews and passengers over the years, when they left the pub in 1968.

Eric

Due to a few requests below is a closer shot of this vehicle, and why not.

16/06/11 – 09:32

Vehicles of my long lost youth! The excitement of living in Sheffield was that you never quite knew what to expect – and sometimes, in times of shortage – the B & C fleet Leopards emerged onto mundane tasks like the 8/9 Inner Circle or 38 Lowedges Road (much to my delight).
Wonderful picture, yet again, Ian. For obvious reasons, to those who know me, I wish that more Dalesmans and Fanfares had been built – both attractive and well built/finished bodies. These were quite the opposite of Duple and Plaxton who built buses in their slack, summer, period whereas Roe (in particular) and Weymann built coaches when they had a slack bus period. That being said, Weymann were a little more mainstream than Roe with major customers such as Southdown, Northern General Group, North Western – and smaller numbers for Devon General and South Wales.
These were the only Leopard Fanfares. Southdown had Tiger Cubs, everyone else had Reliances but Northern General also had some Guy LUF for one group company. These were the VERY FIRST Leopards built for and delivered to SJOC in July 1959 before the model was officially launched at the Scottish Motor Show the following November. Two more batches of Fanfares followed for SJOC B & C fleets as well as the ECW and Burlingham Leopards. The original six were first described as PSUC1 Tiger Cub specials but on delivery, this had been changed to L1 Leopard. (This was also interesting as the L1 was the bus version, the L2 the coach version – but ALL SJOC’s Leopard coaches were L1!)
Weymann crept back shortly after with two batches of Castilians for Southdown, lots of BET DPs in 1965 as well as multifarious coach bodies, in minute numbers, on Fords and Bedfords.

David Oldfield

16/06/11 – 11:20

The Burlingham Leopards also worked the X48, I had forgotten about those. I think I have a photo somewhere I took of a Burlingham Leopard stood outside the Dog & Partridge. I’ll see if I can dig it out, but as it was taken on a Kodak Instamatic it may not be good enough to reproduce.

Eric

17/06/11 – 18:07

1005 (1505 WJ) ended its days with Hulley of Baslow. 6170-6174 WJ also went to Hulleys of Baslow after a time with Midland Red.
See the undernoted picture on Flickr: www.flickr.com/
Seen in the picture are the “C” fleet Weymann Fanfares prior to going to Hulleys. The picture was taken at East Bank Garage in January 1970

Stephen Bloomfield

18/01/13 – 16:58

I can well recall 1505 WJ in Hulley of Baslow service . It was highly regarded by the drivers and passengers alike. After yeoman service it was withdrawn in May 1976. I believe it was sold for use as a towing vehicle in Essex and eventually scrapped in August 1978

Jerry Wilkes

19/01/13 – 06:16

And here are some of the Fanfares, as withdrawn vehicles, in Hulleys yard, plus a Yeates-bodied Bedford. www.flickr.com/photos

Chris Hebbron

Sheffield Corporation1952Leyland Titan PD2/12Mann Egerton H30/26R

Sheffield Corporation1952Leyland Titan PD2/12Roe H33/25R

Sheffield Corporation1949Leyland Titan PD2/1Leyland H30/26R

Sheffield Corporation1952Leyland Titan PD2/10Leyland (previously H33/26R)

Sheffield Corporation1949Leyland Titan PD2/1Leyland H30/26R

T D Alexander (Greyhound) Sheffield and Arbroath1950Leyland Tiger PS2/1Strachans C32R

Sheffield Corporation1949Leyland Tiger PS1 Cawood B34F

Sheffield Corporation1950Leyland Tiger PS2/1Strachans B34R

Sheffield Corporation1952Leyland Olympic HR44 Weymann B44F

Sheffield Corporation1959Leyland Leopard L1Weymann Fanfare C41F

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Mann Egerton H30/26R

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Roe H33/25R

Sheffield Corporation
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Titan PD2/10
Leyland (previously H33/26R)

Sheffield Corporation
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

T D Alexander (Greyhound) Sheffield and Arbroath
1950
Leyland Tiger PS2/1
Strachans C32R

Sheffield Corporation
1949
Leyland Tiger PS1
Cawood B34F

Sheffield Corporation
1950
Leyland Tiger PS2/1
Strachans B34R

Sheffield Corporation
1952
Leyland Olympic HR44
Weymann B44F

Sheffield Corporation
1959
Leyland Leopard L1
Weymann Fanfare C41F