Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Weymann H39/30R
Nearing the ending of its days, 441 was one of 26 Weymann H39/30R bodied AEC Regent V 2D3RA delivered in April 1960 to replace trams on the penultimate route – Meadowhead to Sheffield Lane Top . There were also 20 Alexander bodied Regent V for the same purpose. The photo was taken on 13 July 1974 at Whirlow Bridge. The presence of the Roe bodied Regent V (also delivered in 1960) in the background and the group of people nearby suggests it was an enthusiasts tour. Presumably 441 was not working on a route from its home garage as the correct destination of Dore is not shown. Orion bodies can look good!!
Couldn’t get much better than that, Ian (two of my favourites) – but could you not have got the Roe bus better, or nearer, or both!!! But of course Orions can look good – especially at 14 years old. With the Roe bus being near the entrance to Whirlow Park, could it have been a wedding hire?
David Oldfield
Are all your photos this good, Ian? Do you have enough for a book? It occurs to me that, good as it is, Charles Hall’s book is photographically incomplete and that must leave scope for a “Glory Days” or some such (of Sheffield Transport) – using your photos and first hand knowledge. After the Roes, these were my favourites, but why the extra long 5 seat benches over each rear wheel arch and why, from 71 in total 1960 Regent Vs, were only a few Weymann’s fitted with exhaust brakes? [It got that I could identify individual buses, with out seeing them, from my desk at school!]
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Roe H39/30RD
This was part of another big order that Sheffield placed with AEC in this case for a total of 71 Regent V 2D3RA model, all delivered in 1960. 1331 was part of the B fleet contingent of 25 buses all of which had this style of Roe bodywork whilst the A fleet received vehicles bodied by Weymann and Alexander. Items to note in comparison with Roe bodied Leyland PD3 fleet number 462 delivered the year previously is the reduction in the number of sliding windows by two in each side of each deck but the inclusion of vents in the front top deck windows plus of course the addition of platform doors. These were manually operated by the conductor and would no doubt be appreciated on some of the longer services such as the 72 to Castleton in the Peak District. I have a watercolour painting done for me many years ago by a good friend of one of this batch operating on service 72 between Bamford and Hathersage. Comparing this bus with Roe bodied Regent III fleet number 1265, the change of livery to include a cream painted radiator surround gives the bus a lighter appearance whilst in this case the legal owner is Sheffield Transport Department. Although many of this batch were withdrawn in 1972 (maybe at the expiry of their second CoF – 7 years initially plus 5 years recertification), my PSV Circle fleet list shows this bus as still in service in October 1973. This is another Coachbuilders official photograph taken at the Roe premises in Crossgates, Leeds.
Here we have it, Ian. My absolute favourites from my Sheffield childhood. Although, for the most part, built at the end of 1959, only about half were delivered on 1 January 1960, the rest were delivered on 1 April with the residue of Weymann and Alexander buses. There was a minor difference in that one sub set had an extra slider (on each side) just behind the bulk-head inside. I think these were what I called the Leadmill set – found on the 12, 22 and 59. The East Bank set were delivered in April and were put to work on the 38. It leads me to surmise that 1331 was an April, East Bank, bus. [Often, lower fleet numbers seemed to arrive before higher ones.] I’m still hoping that 1330, at Aldwarke, will eventually be rebuilt and take to the road.
David Oldfield
05/05/11 – 07:05
A classic photograph, with the fluorescent lights fully on in what was apparently the Roe drawing office in the background, where these wonderful bus bodies were designed and detailed! 1331 as it happens was the last Roe bodied Regent V in service at Sheffield, being finally withdrawn on 13 May, 1976. The other three of the batch which accompanied 1331 into that last year of back loader operation were 1332, 1336 and 1339, the three of them coming off the previous month. For the record, 1331 completed a full last day in service on that May day, shuttling back and forth between Sheffield Lane Top and Bradway on the 76; a fine testament to a superb vehicle.
Dave Careless
05/05/11 – 12:16
Bradway (75)? or Lowedges Road (76)?
David Oldfield
06/05/11 – 06:59
To all, interest in the Sheffield Transport/SJOC matters are certainly gaining momentum! The comments on the later intake of Leyland PD2/20 and 30, followed by the longer PD3/1 vehicles is a very interesting point. Undoubtedly, the problem of the Leyland change in the gearbox specification was a hard blow, particularly with respect to the newly trained, ex tram drivers. Possibly Leyland thought that Sheffield would turn to the Pneumocyclic option. The 40 PD2/20 Roe bodied batch in 1956 were taken into the A fleet, featuring the latest constant mesh/synchromesh gearbox. They were mainly replacement buses and would be driven by experienced drivers. Conversely, as time went by, the former tram men gained more driving experience and were able to master the buses lacking synchromesh on 2nd gear. Very definitely the 30ft long PD3/1/Roe buses, much heavier than the PD2 versions,were a problem to many skilled drivers,on steeply graded routes. To this end, the Chief Driving Instructor Charles Deamer devised a method of “Snatch changing” (a brutal change from 1st to 2nd gear) when starting on steep hills and this method was also used on the PD2’s. However, the driving staff preferred the easier life when in control of the AEC Regent Mark 111 and Mark V versions of 27ft and 30ft buses. Manager C.T.Humpidge re-introduced fluid transmission/Monocontrol to Sheffield A,B,& C fleets in 1964/5 and no further synchromesh buses entered service.
Keith Beeden
06/05/11 – 07:19
Well David, it was a long time ago! Perhaps it did a stint on both, but all I can say is that it was out all day, didn’t break down, and definitely wasn’t on the 33 from Lane Top to Hemsworth!! 1331 had a spell at Bramall Lane garage early in its career, as it shows up there in the allocation list dated 11th January, 1963, (with eight of its sisters, 1325-1330, 1332 and 1349) but that garage closed later that year, so presumably was an East Bank bus after that for most if not all of its working life. Fascinating hobby this, isn’t it!
Dave Careless
06/05/11 – 15:36
Certainly is and its good to know there are other Sheffield expert/enthusiasts out there. We may be outnumbered by the West Yorkshire lot and we can’t post as long as East Yorkshire but we will fly the flag for the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire (!!!).
David Oldfield
07/05/11 – 06:06
At PMT all the Leyland Titans, both PD2 and PD3 had the Leyland GB83 constant mesh second gearboxes. The driving school there taught the snatch change method of getting from 1st to 2nd on a hill start. Although not in the same league as Sheffield, the Potteries area did have a number of steep hills to negotiate. Once you got the hang of it, the snatch change was quite easy. The gear lever travel on the GB83 was much shorter than on the synchromesh second unit (think that was a GB74) which made the buses so fitted that much easier to drive. I queried the non use of synchro 2nd gearboxes at PMT and was told that the constant mesh 2nd gearbox had a generally longer service life between repairs. Even the Matador recovery vehicle had acquired a Leyland 0.600 engine and a GB83 gearbox!
Ian Wild
09/05/11 – 08:16
The Sheffield thread is fascinating. My brother-in-law-to-be was doing a practical stint at Laycock’s in 1960, so I went up to join him for a couple of days and we went merrily tram-riding only months before closure. My very favourites were the 1937 batch, but they were all very stylish, so it’s fitting that the 1959-60 Regents (which I assume were the tram-replacement batches) were so handsome. Even the Bridgemaster (not usually a favourite of mine) is well-proportioned—with the bonus of a prodigious seating capacity. Keith Beeden’s point about hardened gearwheels is an eye-opener: I knew that many variables affected the music of the same gearbox in different vehicle types, but I never realised that mere (!?) metallurgy could play such a part. But it makes sense: cardboard gearwheels wouldn’t sing. Could the hardened teeth that Keith mentions have been used in the NTG…-reg 1954 Rhondda Regent IIIs? They certainly had a distinctive whine. I’ve never driven a PD2 (except for an RTW) so I don’t know whether a clutch stop was fitted or not, but it certainly should have been! A clutch-stop would save wear on the cones when engaging 1st or 2nd from neutral, but I guess the builders judged that synchromesh had made that wonderful, simple device redundant.
Ian Thompson
09/05/11 – 08:19
A driver at Manchester once told me that the problem with the snatch change from first to second on the half-synchro PD2s was that every bus was different. Some required more skill than others, and some would not accept a snatch change no matter what. He found it more reliable to move the lever out of first, across the gate and gently forward, slowing the clutch down on third gear synchromesh, and then snick it quickly back into second.
Peter Williamson
10/05/11 – 07:13
A very ingenious solution, Peter!
Chris Hebbron
10/05/11 – 07:15
Ian, I agree with you about the Sheffield Domed trams (1936 – 1939 + war-time rebuilds). The majority of the tram replacement buses were 27′ Regents and Titans and I think, strictly, the only 30′ Regent V tram replacement buses were the Weymann and Alexander examples (A fleet). The Roe were B fleet – and there were no B fleet trams! I also agree with you about the Bridgemaster which looked good in Sheffield colours and with the traditional back end. It was the front loader which looked all wrong. Was never aware that the Bridgemasters caused any problems with reliability. That being the case, what was really the problem with it? Interesting to think of a comment I read that AEC pondered the possibility of replacing the Regent V AND the Bridgemaster with the Renown. Again, never heard of reliability problems with them either. …..unless anyone out there knows otherwise.
David Oldfield
12/05/11 – 9:39
Thanks for the clarification, David. I’ve never understood the Sheffield A-fleet/B-fleet distinction though, so perhaps you could outline that for me as well.
Ian Thompson
A Fleet: wholly owned by Sheffield Corporation for routes entirely within the City bounds, including those which replaced tram routes.
B Fleet: owned jointly by Sheffield Corporation and the Railway Companies or Boards. [Sheffield expanded its borders progressively from about 1920 until 1974. B fleet routes included some on the outer edge of the City which had previously been in Derbyshire or the West Riding and some which went over the borders.]
C Fleet: owned entirely by the Railway Companies or Boards. These routes included some Derbyshire routes but also all the long routes, including Manchesters and Retford/Gainsboroughs. For most, although not all, of its existence, C Fleet buses shared the same livery and generally similar types to the A (and B) Fleet. Management of all three fleets and routes was common, types of vehicle were similar (although platform doors and different seats may differentiate) and, of course, coaches would be B and C Fleet. The JOC (Joint Omnibus Committee) was set up in 1927 principally with the LMS and LNER Railways. With Nationalisation in 1948 these became Midland and Eastern Regions. The formation of NBC in 1969 caused the disbandment of the JOC – which had in effect performed as a regional bus company such as, and in the territory of, Yorkshire Traction and North Western. Many C Fleet buses were then, at this time, dispersed among NBC subsidiaries, notably Yorkshire Woolen. JOCs seemed to be a very Yorkshire thing – Halifax, Todmorden, Huddersfield – although Railways always had a stake in BET and Tilling companies as well prior to NBC formation. Although the Corporation retained most Derbyshire work, the remaining Manchester route (48) became a North Western operation and many of the others became joint with operators with whom they had previously work anyway.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/01/12 – 16:34
A somewhat belated response to the comment on snatch gear changes with Leyland PD2’s and PD3’s. I learned to drive in a PD1 in 1962 and was taught the technique at that time, as this was with Eastbourne Corporation there being no serious hills to contend with I can’t remember having to use it. However I joined Southdown in 1969 at Eastbourne and soon had cause to brush up the trick especially on the 12 route to Brighton which also included trips to estates at West Dene and Tongdean on the outskirts of Brighton which were very hilly (one reason the PD3/5’s went west). Probably the worst stop was at Downs Golf club 2/3rd’s of the way up the hill out of Eastbourne, not something you looked forward to with a good load of holidaymakers in the summer. I’ve never heard of the trick told to Peter Williamson, of using the synchro on 3rd gear to slow the gearbox when changing 1st to 2nd but I did use the same method but using 4th to make selecting 2nd gear when stationary much easier and quieter otherwise 2nd would grate noisily, I read this somewhere but can’t remember where. The same technique worked equally well when used with the direct air operated Pneumocyclic box as it cut out the jolt when engaging 2nd when stationary.
Sheffield Corporation 1963 AEC Regent V 2D2RA Park Royal H38/32F
After several years of deliveries of rear engined double deckers, Sheffield bought batches of forward entrance for all three fleets in 1963 and 1964. This bus was from the first batch and is seen in May 1967 at the Oughtibridge terminus of service 18. Although four years old by this time, the bus appears to be in its original coat of paint with red lining below the lower blue band and the gold front fleet number. Brian commented recently on Sheffield Bridgemaster 525 that it was used on the service 7 to Stannington, I think it more likely that the bus(es) he recalls was one of these not dissimilar looking vehicles which were regular performers on that service.
Strange how companies ‘borrow – steal?’ design ideas from each other, I would be hard pushed to spot the difference between some Alexander and MCW bodies, and to me the upper deck on this vehicle could have come straight out of the Orion stable rather than Park Royal
Ronnie Hoye
03/09/12 – 07:50
These were essentially Herries buses for the north of the city – including the bit of the West Riding which would become part of the city after the 1974 Local Government Act became law. The 18 was the Oughtibridge route (on the main Manchester via Flouch Inn corridor) but a favourite haunt for the park Royal regent Vs was the 91/98 Grenoside/Ecclesfield Circular. I thought that 64 – 73 with Weymann bodies were better looking but apparently they suffered from being amongst the last bodies completed at Addlestone and the quality of finish was not up to traditional Weymann standards. Pity, though. These were delivered to East Bank in August 1963 and spent their formative years on the 28/43 group of Herdings routes.
Ian, there is an extant picture of 525 (in Charles Halls’ book) on the 70 to Wombwell – so she did creep north of the city centre.
David Oldfield
04/09/12 – 06:44
Could it also be a BET Standard? BET “asked” PRV to change the original Bridgemaster from Classic PRV style and construction to steel framed “Box on Wheels” that it became. That is when PRV began to look more and more like the Orion.
David Oldfield
04/09/12 – 08:34
A pair of identical Regents ended up with Hebble when the Sheffield C fleet was disbanded in 1970. They always stood out by virtue of their Sheffield style indicators they were then passed to Yorkshire Woollen when Hebble disappeared a year later.
Chris Hough
05/09/12 – 06:50
That was 1150/1151 – and they were joined by some 1962 Atlanteans and the infamous ECW/PD2s.
David Oldfield
05/09/12 – 06:51
And after that, the two of them left Yorkshire for good, ending up with KMB in Hong Kong. They were rebodied with MetSec bodywork, and ended their days in a scrapyard, in the Chinese version of Barnsley!
Dave Careless
05/09/12 – 08:35
PRV and Roe both seemed to take a liking to those rather obvious ventilation extractors on the upper deck around this period – the fact that they weren’t more widely adopted might hint at their usefulness. To me, for some reason (familiarity perhaps?), two fog/spot lights have never looked right on a half-cab: I can only think of AEC fitting two fogs/spots, but did Leyland? – I’m sure I’ve never seen a Daimler or Guy with two. Whatever, to me this bus has a brutal purposefulness about it – a classic in terms of both design and livery.
Philip Rushworth
05/09/12 – 08:36
It’s only my opinion, but my vote for the best looking half cabs ever would go to the Park Royals of about the mid to late 50’s. Southdown had them, Newcastle had both high and low bridge versions on AEC Regent V chassis, Northern General Group had them on Guy Arab IV’s, and a later batch of PD2’s with rear doors. To be fair the Leeds Roe bodied Regent V’s were also a handsome beast, but I prefer the PR’s
Ronnie Hoye
05/09/12 – 08:37
Can you give us any details please, David, of how and when BET ‘asked’ PRV to alter their design and construction?
Roy Burke
06/09/12 – 06:48
Sorry, Ronnie, but my vote always goes to Roe. I will agree with you after that – and don’t forget the COMS Regents with similar PRV bodies. Roy. Regret that I cannot give documentary details – I do not own the book that contained the information. (It was a paperback about significant prototypes vehicles.) Briefly: Crossley were allocated the task of developing the Bridgemaster and they were also producing a clone of Ronnie’s favourite PRV body at the time. Apart from being extremely attractive, it had, I believe aluminium construction – like the Routemaster. ACV were anxious to attract BET orders, but BET wanted a simple steel-framed construction with single skinned domes – in other words an Orion clone. This was around 1958, when Crossley finally closed down, and production moved to PRV in London. This resulted in the dreadful box-like front-end design of the Bridgemaster (even though initially the rear dome was the same as “standard”) and the same single skinned interior panels (again like early lightweight Orions). I believe there is also passing reference in “The Blue Triangle” (Alan Townsin).
David Oldfield
06/09/12 – 07:19
With respect to the intake of the 1964/56 series of AEC Regent V/Park Royal vehicles I can add a little information on their purchase. From the early sixties, Sheffield Transport Dept favoured the rear engined double decker, giving up to 78 seats. The general Manager C.T Humpidge, the successor to R.C.Moore from 1961, did favour the traditional front engine design. When the Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee needed replacement vehicles, Mr Humpidge suggested that the AEC Regent/PRV version would be a cheaper option than the Atlantean or Fleetline.
Keith Beeden
07/09/12 – 07:33
Whilst I agree with David about the aesthetics and quality of traditional Roe body work, I do come down on the side of Ronnie in respect of the Park Royal double deck design of the mid 1950s. The PRV bodied Guy Arab IVs of Southdown – the body style with the deeper windows than the East Kent contemporaries – were, to my eye, the most handsome front engined ‘deckers of all time.
Roger Cox
07/09/12 – 07:34
Mention of C.T.Humpidge reminded me that after retiring from Sheffield Corporation he became The Reverend C.T.Humpidge. There cannot be many bus managers that have done that.
Philip Carlton
07/09/12 – 07:34
Philip’s “brutal purposefulness” description is very good because it really homes in on how Park Royal’s Orion clone differs from the Orion itself. Here’s an Orion for comparison www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ The front tapers inwards in both an upward and forward direction (something that was taken to horrible extremes on tin-front Leylands), and in this case, though not always, is less perpendicular. Not nearly as brutal, is it?
Peter Williamson
08/09/12 – 07:11
Couldn’t agree more, Peter.
David Oldfield
08/09/12 – 07:12
Mr. J.P. Senior, former General Manager at Burnley, Colne and Nelson, then Assistant GM at Ribble became vicar of Heddon-on-the-Wall, Northumberland.
Eric Bawden
08/09/12 – 07:12
I’ve just discovered that the Park Royal site www.prv.org.uk/ has recently been updated with a large number of images, which are worth taking a look at. Many of them are rear-end views, which is very useful given the variety of rear domes that Park Royal used during this period, which tended to either accentuate or mitigate the box-on-wheels effect.
Peter Williamson
08/09/12 – 07:14
It is the front end perpendicularity (assuming there is such a word!) that I always found distasteful – whether on these, Bridgemasters or indeed front entrance Lodekkas (plus, of course, the original housebrick style Atlanteans). They all looked ungainly, as though they were about to trip over their front wheels and fall flat on their faces in the road! I’ll also earn some flak by saying that I liked the Orion, especially exposed radiator types. Well, having gone so far I may as well wreck what remaining credibility I have by saying I also liked the shape of the Leyland National – though I fully understand its innumerable mechanical shortcomings. Both it and the Orion dared to look like honest to goodness buses instead of space-age adaptations.
Stephen Ford
08/09/12 – 07:15
Philip, pictured elsewhere on this site is a 1959 Roe bodied PD3 Tin front, that also has two fog/spots. I certainly cant remember any other half cabs with more than one, even the twin headlight Green Line RMC’s only had one fog, so it may well be that the practice of fitting two was unique to Sheffield. However, since about 1982 I think, current legislation only allows front fog/spot lights to be fitted in pairs
Ronnie Hoye
09/09/12 – 07:32
The industrial smogs down the Sheffield river valleys could be pretty thick: to get people home in the evening perhaps you needed one for the kerb and one for the white line- or for the conductor walking down the middle of the road!
Joe
09/09/12 – 07:33
I’ve had a look round some of my photos to see whether two foglamps was unusual on half-cabs and I’ve noticed four trends: No foglights – quite a lot of operators didn’t fit foglights at all. Most of the South Wales operators come into that category, but so do Manchester and Salford. One foglight – some operators had a single foglight and didn’t modify the buses. Halifax is an example of this. Rhondda’s Regent Vs had a single one to the end although I did find one that had none. Later fitment of second foglight – Oldham’s tin-front PD2s and exposed-radiator PD3s originally only had a single foglight but were later modified with a second one. The PD3s were so done at their 7-year CoF in 1971. Always two – some operators always had two, or fitted the second at an early date. Southdown’s Queen Marys had two. Stockport’s fleet of PD2s and PD3s all had two, from the 1958 Crossley-bodied examples onwards. South Yorkshire is another surprising example – even their Bond-bodied PD2s had two. Rotherham’s 1965 Daimler CVG6s had two as well.
David Beilby
12/09/12 – 06:58
I recall these Regents at the small Bridge Street bus station, working services 91/98 to Grenoside as stated, also the 73 and 80 to High Green. They were the last front-engined buses in the Sheffield fleets. The reference to smog reminds me that some operators had “fog on route” on their blinds. Oldham and Manchester were two, maybe others.
Geoff Kerr
23/11/12 – 16:04
The sound these wonderful buses made was my all-time favourite- with the possible exception of the Bristol RE.These were Sheffield’s only semi-automatic Regents and sounded very different to the other Regents in the fleet. 3150/1, as they were numbered after 1968, were the C fleet pair mentioned above. They were, I understand, bought for the 85 to Gainsborough, but by the time I reached Sheffield in 1969 they were used on city services such as the 150/151 to Shiregreen. This pair had overhead luggage racks downstairs! Hebble, who by January 1970 were in absolutely desperate straits vehicle-wise, grabbed them eagerly when the C fleet passed into NBC ownership on 1 Jan 1970.
Phil Drake
23/11/12 – 16:54
I seem to remember that the parcel racks in 1150/1 were of netting rather than having a solid base, quite unusual for a double decker.
Ian Wild
05/12/12 – 07:28
I always found the second B fleet batch slightly superior to the initial one at this time of year. Those 1368-1377 368-377HWE had fan heaters which didn’t stop when the bus did.
On the subject of Sheffields Half cab fog lights, I only ever remember the 31 forward entrance AEC half cabs having twin fog lamps in their service days, all other half cabs would have just a nearside one. It was only when the PD3’s in particular were relegated to the ancillary fleet that the second offside ones appeared. With the exception of the initial Alexander bodied Atlantean 369 all other Sheffield buses received after 1960 would all have twin fog lights A shot of of ex-Sheffield PD3 909 on SCT61 when 23 with Stevensons fleet still only had the nearside one. The pre-service shot of 461 at Crossgates only had the one.
Andrew
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/12/12 – 17:05
To pick up on Phil’s contribution (23/XI/12) 1150-1/3150-1 were purchased for service 85 Sheffield-Retford-Gainsborough but, according to Alan Hinton’s Omnibus Society pamphlet about this route “neither racks nor vehicles were popular . . . and they rarely reached Retford [sic]”. Partial double-decking of the route had started on 25/VIII/58, those through journeys which were double decked (the frequency was hourly between Sheffield-Retford, but only two-hourly between Retford Gainsborough) required a change to a single-decker at Retford. Initially PD2/Roe 1156-61 were allocated, being fitted with high-backed seats and platform doors. Then around 1960 it appears that “some Roe-bodied AEC Regent Vs from the B fleet were tried . . . but like most AECs they were not popular on this route” – why? In 1962 Leyland Atlantean/Weymann 1163-65 were purchased for the service, having high-backed seats and a “special upper-deck [sic] luggage compartment to accommodate . . . fishing baskets” (why on the upper deck? – to minimise smells??). In 1966 A-fleet Leyland Atlantean/Neepsend of the batch 348-60 took over double-deck operations – presumably C-fleet vehicles worked “A” services to balance the mileage. Until 17/III/68 the service was operated by Townhead Street garage and an outstation at the EMMS garage in Retford: on that date Townhead Street garage closed and Greenland Road garage assumed responsibility for workings using the 1962 C-fleet Atlanteans, now renumbered 3163-5. Single-deck operations were, from 1960, entrusted to the Burlingham and Weymann Fanfare bodied Leyland Leopards, but latterly became the preserve of A-fleet AEC/PRV Swifts – some of which had their seating capacity reduced to provide extra luggage accommodation for the role. Alan Hilton’s pamphlet really is a most fascinating history of this route.
Sheffield Corporation 1954 AEC Regent III Weymann H32/26R
I must admit that I have come up with the above information on a bit of a wing and a prayer after searching Google and my regular informative web sites I think I am right. But if I am wrong I will not be upset if you correct me, please leave a comment. I am not sure about a white livery for buses especially in large towns they have a tendency to look a bit dirty “all the time”.
Part of the batch of 36, these were the last exposed radiator buses for Sheffield Corporation and JOC. There were preceded, in 1953/54, by over 50 Leyland PD2s, with near identical bodies, which were the first of hundreds of tram-replacement buses.
Sheffield Corporation 1956 AEC Regent III Weymann Orion L27/28R
Now I know what your thinking you think I have got this completely wrong, this is surely a Regent V you say. No it is definitely a Regent III there was a small number of late Regent IIIs that were built with the wide bonnet front more associated with the Regent V and this is one of them. I also have a shot of another Sheffield Corporation Regent that could be a bit dubious, registration WWB 542 fleet no 742, it is different to above in that it has an odd shaped window on the staircase and no air vent at the front of the roof, I would guess at Roe bodywork myself. I think that it also maybe a Regent III as that registration dates from 1955/6 and I can find no details of it in the Regent V lists on the excellent Bus Lists on the Web website. If you know please leave a comment.
742 was VWJ 542 Regent III 9613S with Roe H33/25R body, new in 1956.
David Harrison
After over 150 exposed radiator Regent IIIs, Sheffield had 41 Roe and 36 Weymann H58R and 9 Weymann L55R Regent IIIs with manual boxes and the new “Regent V” front. This was in 1955/6 and they followed immediately by 40 genuine Regent Vs with Weymann H58R bodies identical to the earlier Weymann/Regent IIIs. The latter arrived in 1957.
David Oldfield
04/05/11 – 07:06
These were the only lowbridge double deckers in the Sheffield fleet post war (and for some considerable time pre war). See Keith Beeden’s comments re Sheffield 1265 for the reason behind this unusual purchase. Four buses (1284-7) survived the rest of the batch by up to four years and made themselves unpopular turning up on a variety of (non lowbridge) services not least being regular performers on the 50 to the posh village of Dore, on the edge of the Peak District. 1284 is pictured in Pond Street Bus Station for a duplicate on the normally single deck service 99 to Chesterfield via the village of Ford which required single deck buses beyond that point.
Ian Wild
05/05/11 – 07:00
It’s amazing how such a fine builder as Weymann could make the Orion look so fine – as it did for almost all Sheffield’s high-bridge variants – but managed to make such a dog’s breakfast of the low-bridges. They had several attempts and failed – the North Western PD2s neither being the same as 1283-91 nor as neighbouring East Midland examples. It’s also true that high-bridge Leylands were generally not so handsome as those on almost any other chassis because of the narrow front profile. I read that, when Leyland closed down the body shop in 1954 that there was a tacet agreement that Leyland body customers would be edged in the direction of MCW (ie MCCW AND Weymann) and this obviously manifested itself in the carry-over from Leyland of a standard 7’6″ front, even on 8’0″ wide bodies (but with the tapering effect). Bizarrely, the best looking and most balanced “low” Orions were on East Midland and Yorkshire Woolen’s Albion Lowlanders – where Alexander made a pig’s ear of it! “First” are still managing to put old rubbish on the (now) 30 to Dore. Is it giving the finger to the unworthy rich – or missing a trick in encouraging onto public transport?
David Oldfield
03/02/12 – 15:27
During the school holidays we use to travel on these buses to the mining area pits (my Mum also worked full time so holidays were spent on whatever route my dad was driving. My Auntie was the conductress).I remember there being 4 bench seats in a row to the nearside & access was lower to the seat height. Cannot remember what happened over the drivers cab, but those front seats must also have been higher than the access route.Downstairs offside was the lowered access route with notices for passengers to “watch your heads” My Dad used to say you can buy the best quality towels from the pit shop at really cheap prices. I think it may have been Orgreave pit. We also used to go on Regents single deckers with the doors & access stairs to the doors & these were the first buses we saw that had a round, chrome heater behind the bulkhead to keep you warm, which we appreciated at 5.30am on cold mornings.
Andy Fisher
28/12/17 – 15:46
Dear David Following your conversation with the Regent III, I am requiring some advice on the Model of my RLH from the Samuel Buses and I am hoping to try and find out if the Regent III types above was the similar bus and I am hoping to change the lower deck to the Regent V front and I am requesting some tips on how to get the job done and what bus to use either the Corgi or the Orion Regent but I do have a quite a few of the buses in the fleet and then I am hoping to do the low height of the bus.
Christopher Norris
29/12/17 – 10:48
It would be good to have a pic of Doncaster CT’s 122 on this site. It was an AEC Regent 3 with a number of interesting features including a stepped boarding platform, those early 50’s deep Roe windows and cranked seating. It also had a Potts Patent air system and I have no idea what that is? 122 has a political history, sold early on with its CVD6 sister to local operators (of which Doncaster had many) on the pretext of being too wide at 8ft to fit the town’s streets (which?), but actually, it seems, not the streets but the DCT bus washer. It is still around in preservation, having been beautifully restored back to DCT glory by the late Tony Peart.
Sheffield Corporation 1953 AEC Regent III Roe H33/25R
Here we have two Sheffield Corporation work horses photographed on a very wet grey day. The Leyland is a Titan PD2/30 built 5 years later than the Regent it had a Weymann H31/28R body registration 4494 WB fleet number 494. It also had a concealed radiator which was nicknamed a “Tin Front” this style of radiator first appeared on Titans when in 1952/3 100 special Titan PD2/12s were built for Midland Red and had a similar style radiator to the B.M.M.O. D7. From 1954 and with a slight modifications the Midland Red look unfortunately became the style of concealed radiator for Titans until 1960 when the “scalloped” bonnet as it was called with horizontal slats came along, thank goodness. I’m afraid a sheet of tin with some slots cut in it does absolutely nothing for me, they even left space for the Midland Red badge to go in at the top which Sheffield made use of for displaying the fleet number. I personally don’t think you can beat the AEC Routemaster for the best looking concealed radiator design, if you disagree or have another suggestion please leave a comment.
A full list of Titan and Regent III codes can be seen here.
Sheffield Corporation 1955 AEC Regent III 9613S Roe H33/25R
Sheffield bought 86 AEC Regent III in 1955/6 incorporating the new look front more usually associated with the Regent V model. The first to arrive were a batch of 32 for the B fleet numbered 1251 – 1282 with handsome Roe bodies. 1265 is shown outside the Roe premises at Crossgates, Leeds prior to delivery. I wonder if this was the first of the batch to be completed hence the official photograph? I always felt that these were a bit heavy looking with the blue radiator surround, I believe they were referred to as ‘bluebottles’. The total batch for the B fleet numbered 41 buses but what were to have been Roe bodied 1283 – 1291 were delivered to the A fleet as 736 – 744 and an equivalent number of the original A fleet order (bodied by Weymann) were fitted with lowbridge bodywork and took the numbers 1283 – 1291 in the B fleet. These were used to double deck the Dinnington services 6 and 19 which operated under a restricted height bridge at South Anston. Roe were quite capable of building lowbridge bodies (see other Roe product photos on this site) and I wonder why Roe didn’t simply supply the last nine as lowbridge vehicles? No doubt there was a reason for it at the time. Although this particular bus was withdrawn in 1969, 1251 and 1254 lasted until 1973 – at 18 years old, a fair age for what was by then a low capacity obsolete (open rear platform) design. All ended up with various Barnsley area scrapmen. A few points to note in the photograph: the difference in shading between the 12 and 65 of the front and side fleet numbers and the legal ownership by the British Transport Commission, also the missing fog lamp and the semaphore trafficator arm in front of the nearside front window.
I would like to help with the Sheffield J.O.C query regarding the 1955 intake of AEC Regent III buses. At the time of the order, SJOC required 41 chassis with 9.6 litre engines and synchromesh gearboxes. An important requirement was for the “New Look” bonnet structure. At the time, the Mark V model featured a revised bonnet design, but only with the 7.75 litre engine. To meet the Sheffield request, AEC agreed to supply 41 Regent III chassis, to incorporate the “New Look” structure. C.H.Roe were to supply 41 bodies to H33/25R layout, to a height of 14ft 2 1/2ins. The modified design featured a lower deck framed in teak and upper deck in light alloy. A problem arose when SJOC wished to increase fares on the category B services.The Yorkshire Transport Authority refused the application and the reason was that there were too many single deck services, some needing duplicate buses. The YTA suggested that more efficiency was needed, suggesting that some low height double deckers should be acquired. To this end Sheffield asked C.H Roe to modify nine of the outstanding contract to be built to low height 55 seaters. Although nine of the 41 chassis had not been delivered ALL the bodies had been built, some placed on trestles to await the chassis delivery. The result was that Weymann were asked to change an order for 45 similar Regent chassis, from H32/26R layout to L27/28R on 9 of the chassis. In consequence, Roe lettered the 9 completed buses to category A finish and the Weymann 9 lettered for the B fleet.
Keith Beeden
30/04/11 – 15:25
Thank you for the explanation Keith. Clear and concise as always.
John Darwent
30/04/11 – 20:50
Thank you Keith for that really interesting explanation about the highbridge/lowbridge body supply swap.
Ian Wild
02/05/11 – 12:59
Why haven’t you heard me pontificating about this picture? I’ve been away! Keith certainly answers the question of why they weren’t Regent Vs. Subsequent D3RV Regent Vs were almost identical to these Regent IIIs. It’s a shame that Roe didn’t build the low heights. The Weymann Regent IIIs and Vs were the nadir of the coach-builders art (stripped back and single skinned) and 1283 – 1291 were by far the ugliest non Utility buses ever operated by STD. Roe would have made a far better – or at least far more attractive – job of it.
David Oldfield
03/05/11 – 08:17
Wonderful looking vehicles these, especially in this Roe version of the Sheffield livery, and even after first repaint, when they acquired a grey roof. Perhaps the nicest sounding buses ever in the fleet, as well. Although not visible in this view, I feel pretty certain it was this batch at least that had a white stick with a small red ball on top, attached to the top of the nearside wing, to aid drivers when pulling into the kerb, considering these ‘new look’ fronts did not afford the same view from the cab that the traditional narrower bonnet and ‘stand alone’ mudguard arrangement did. Could these have been fitted at Queens Road after suggestions from driving staff, perhaps?
Dave Careless
03/05/11 – 16:42
Dave, you are absolutely correct about the markers. I suspect it was a Queens Road affair because I seem to recall a few, but not all, of the Weymann Regent IIIs with markers. You can’t beat AEC/Roe for me, but these combined the musical (pre-war style) manual gearbox with the throaty exhaust. The latter disappeared with the Regent V but there were odd members of both the Regent III and V Weymanns (such as 751 and 792) which had a different gearbox which was “even more musical” – almost like the crash boxes in Guy Arab IV/V and Daimler CCG6.
David Oldfield
04/05/11 – 06:35
Interesting comment David, re-AEC music. I visited Paignton in 1960 when most of the Devon General services were operated by Regent/Weymanns of, I guess, about 1950 vintage. The sound was neither the melodious pre-war type crash gearbox, nor the “wail” of the manual Regent V (I know I’m liable to get lynched for calling it that), though it is some resemblance to both. It was certainly not the classic pre-selector sound either. I never came across it anywhere else, though I guess it must have been a standard transmission option.
Stephen Ford
04/05/11 – 06:37
I don’t remember Roe lowbridge bodies of this particular style being very numerous on AEC Regents, of course West Riding had them aplenty on Guy and Leyland. But if the Sheffield ones had been supplied by Roe, we can have a good impression of how they would have looked from the view of UWT 876 in the United Services posting, perhaps without the platform doors, but very handsome!
Chris Barker
04/05/11 – 06:42
I share your appreciation of the fine standard of Roe elegance coupled to the inspirational sounds of the Regent 111 9613S vehicles.751 and 792 (a D3RV type) may have been fitted with hardened gear wheels, which resulted from the earlier synchromesh problems. This modification did endow a similar whine to the Guy Arab 1V.Incidentally, at least one of the three Regal 1V/Roe single deckers, OWE 12-14 received this modification to emit Guy type sounds. There is one more significant fact to report which relates to the 45 Regent 9613S chassis with Weymann Orion bodies, which were altered to nine to low height buses. Originally, 45 Leyland PD2/20 chassis were ordered with Orion bodies to the new “Tin Front” style. They were for the Walkley-Intake tramway conversion, due in 1956. Previously, the Leyland synchromesh gearbox featured constant mesh for 1st gear and Synchromesh on 2nd,3rd and 4th. After the contract had been signed and sealed, the Contracts engineer C.C.Hall discovered that second gear had constant mesh engagement, only 3rd and 4th having synchromesh. This was disastrous, as the Walkley and Intake routes featured some very steep hills and many of the drivers would be ex tram men. An easy change from 1st to 2nd or 3rd to 2nd was essential. Sheffield offered to pay extra to include an easy change 2nd ratio. Unfortunately, Leyland refused to provide this facility. The outcome was that the PD2/20 order was cancelled and AEC were asked to supply 45 more 9613S chassis, in addition to the 41 already on order. This situation was resolved by good old competition, where an alternative supplier was available!
Keith Beeden
05/05/11 – 06:48
As an AEC man from a boy (!) riding to aforementioned Weymann Regent IIIs and Vs on both the 95 and the 51, it shocked me to read in C C Halls excellent book that Sheffield were in fact Leyland operators who dual sourced from AEC rather than either an AEC operator or a 50/50 operator. As I’ve said before, old age and maturity have also made me a Leyland man, but definitely second to AEC. This Leyland lack of syncro on second was very evident on the PD3s (recently posted) when setting off from rest at the bottom of Meadowhead – especially with a full load. Interesting, though, that 43 self-same PD2/20 were delivered (with Roe bodywork) in 1957 and then 40 PD2/30 in 1957/8 divided equally between Roe and Weymann – the latter being of the type you mentioned in the cancelled order.
David Oldfield
05/05/11 – 06:50
It is interesting to consider different operators views on the ‘new look’ front from within the same county. Sheffield specified Regent III’s with the Regent V type front to give the vehicles a modern appearance at a time when Britain was emerging out of post-WW2 austerity. In contrast Doncaster, Leeds and Huddersfield bought Regent V’s but specified the Regent III style exposed radiator. It seems the view of these three operators was the very reverse of Sheffield’s. These three Yorkshire operators were sticking to tradition and apparently having nowt to do with modernity! On the other hand this being Yorkshire – was the Regent III type radiator cheaper? (Provocative comment from a Lancastrian – couldn’t resist!)
Philip Halstead
05/05/11 – 12:16
Aye, but we’re a rum lot in Sheffield – being on the edge of outer darkness with Derbyshire. Canny wi’ brass but appreciating the finer things in life!?
David Oldfield
06/05/11 – 06:44
Nottingham also went for the old look exposed radiators on its 65 Regent V/Park Royals (209-273) delivered 1955/56.
Stephen Ford
06/05/11 – 07:04
In reply to the two David’s comments on the AEC Regent 111/Mark V with bonnet markers, I can confirm that they were fitted at Queens Road works. Some drivers complained of poor visibility to the nearside when approaching stops or close passing. During the early and mid thirties, AEC fitted this type of marker on Regent and Regal vehicles. This knowledge would be known by the engineering staff, to be produced in house.
Keith Beeden
06/05/11 – 07:07
Leeds took both AEC and Leyland chassis with exposed radiators for ease of maintenance. It took a change of GM to bring in enclosed radiators on both chassis and only 20 Leylands were delivered with this layout. To the very end Leeds AECs had a polished bonnet an anachronism maybe but a sight to set the juices flowing for this (then) teenager. Absolute poetry in motion!
Chris Hough
11/12/11 – 07:01
what about MANSFIELD DISTRICT TRACTION? Nobody hardly ever mentions these buses,also very few coloured photos about.They shared the same depot on Sutton Road Mansfield Notts.
Sheffield Corporation 1948 AEC Regent III Weymann H30/26R
The three batches of Weymann bodied AEC Regent III’s, comprising forty vehicles in all, were, to my mind at least, arguably the most attractive of all the double deckers taken into stock by Sheffield Transport Department in the immediate post-war period. The initial batch of ten, 527-536 (JWB 727/828/729-736) probably had the edge, with their half drop windows instead of the top sliders fitted to the other two deliveries of fifteen vehicles each, 558-572 (JWE 858-872) and 250-264 (KWE 250-264), one of the latter batch which is seen here. The rear ends of these buses always looked particularly attractive to me, with the well radiused top corners to the platform window, not to mention that classic of an emergency window upstairs. And of course, the outswept bottom panels of these Weymann bodies only added to their overall elegant appearance. It was an overcast afternoon in July, 1961 when 258 was recorded on film, having just swept through the doors of Herries Road garage, about to take up service on one of the 94 group of workers services from the large Southey Green and Parson Cross housing estates to the miles of steelworks at Brightside and Templeborough. Later that same year, 258, along with sister Regents 251/2/4, were withdrawn and sold to Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport for further service, a couple of the quartet lasting a further seven years, not being finally withdrawn from the seaside until 1968, having given a very creditable twenty year service life.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Careless
04/06/13 – 18:05
The transfers became Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport numbers 41 (KWE 258), 48 (KWE 251), 49 (KWE 252) and 50 (KWE 254). The intervening numbers 42-47 were occupied by similarly Weymann-bodied Regent IIs ex London Transport (HGC 233, 222, 227, 228, 219 and 225 respectively).
Stephen Ford
04/06/13 – 18:06
Classic AEC, classic Weymann, classic Sheffield, shear perfection; or am I prejudiced? Ah, so what?
David Oldfield
05/06/13 – 06:07
527 – 536 also didn’t have the out-swept skirt and were delivered without the smudge roof. Regrettably, I had little contact with these fine beasts as Herries buses didn’t penetrate our corner of Sheffield until the 38 was replaced by the 42/53 cross city service. Occasionally the Roberts and Cravens did rush hour duty. Where would these Weymanns have been originally? Town Head Street? [Herries Road depot was not built until 1952.]
David Oldfield
05/06/13 – 18:04
David, when they were new, the initial batch 527-536 were at Leadmill Road, and all the others went to Bramall Lane garage. I remember riding on the 558-572 batch a lot around the time I took the picture, when they were working on the Petre Street-City-Graves Park service 34, some of my most enjoyable bus rides ever!
Dave Careless
06/06/13 – 06:16
Now that you mention it, I do remember them on Graves Park 34s. [Who would have done 74s? Wasn’t there some inter-working?] I was only 8 when that picture was taken. I wasn’t let loose, on my own, on a bus for another two years – and then only under controlled circumstances.
David Oldfield
06/06/13 – 17:08
Many of these Weymanns were indeed at Bramall Lane Depot. They serviced among others, 34 Graves Park/Petre Street (Reform Chapel) which was a replacement tram route from about 1925. The AEC 111s mostly on this route were normally with Northern Coach Builders squarer profile, which I personally preferred. I preferred them because of the interior lights, (which were ribbed squarish), the top deck emergency window (shaped like a loaf of Hovis) & the fact my dad drove this route daily for many years! The route 35 to Holythorpe Rise used the Weymanns pictured. The 33 route to Hemsworth (in my time), were what I thought were AEC 111s Park Royal with nice interiors, including a 1″ ish green band between windows & roof downstairs. This was my favourite at the time. Since getting back into buses, they could have been Cravens. The 36 route was a rush hour duplicate to Heeley Green. On this route you had anything with 4 wheels & an engine. This was my preferred transport to school. It could be pre-war, post war, single or double deckers. You never had the same bus 2 days running, heaven. The other route on the via Bramall Lane route was the 38 to Norton.
Andy Fisher
06/06/13 – 17:08
Upstairs front offside, of course, was always the preferred option, but a close second was the lower saloon nearside front seat, peering over into the cab and watching every action of the driver, manhandling the pre-selector lever through the gears as we bowled along the Wicker. Leaping off just before we came to a stop at Reform Chapel terminus at the Petre Street end of the route, and watching the conductor lean out and wind the blinds over the platform round to City and Hollythorpe Rise never ceased to fascinate. Happy summer days.
Dave Careless
07/06/13 – 05:50
No Park Royals between 1935 and 1955 (Monocoaches) or 1963 (Regent V front loaders). Could be Cravens but the Roberts had a more Park Royal profile. The 38 was originally Lowedges Road. It only became Norton when the 42/53 were redirected to Lowedges Road from Woodseats and Graves Park. I’m sure Bramhall Lane had closed by the time Norton took on the 38 route number. I think my favourites were Cravens and Weymann in that order. It would be another four or five years before my all time favourite (Roes) appeared for the first time. This time of year (summer) I would make a trek to the 38 (Lowedges Road) terminus at about this time (1800) to do the same, Dave. They were principally the OWE, RWB and SWE Regent IIIs – Roe, Roe and Weymann.
David Oldfield
08/06/13 – 07:56
Andy, square ribbed light fittings – yes, we had them in Nottingham too (and indeed Bartons no. 906, a second hand Leyland PD2 acquired from Yorkshire Woollen about 1961, had them as well). I’m away from home on holiday at the moment, but on my other computer at home I have a selection of “light” pictures (a strange but innocent fascination of mine!) and will post a photo when I get home.
Stephen Ford
08/06/13 – 17:50
My fascination does not stop at lights. The flat wheel rims of many buses compared to the dished ones on Leylands, (preferred) the Leyland wheel chrome rims compared to the AECs & Crossleys. The fact buses without chrome rims look awful & dated, shapes & styles of opening windows, different dashboards & last but not least rear emergency exit windows upstairs. Does this make me weird?
Andy Fisher
09/06/13 – 15:27
Andy. Weird? Not in the least. Emergency windows and wheel nut rings are the stuff of legend. For instance, not only the classic Weymann emergency window in the picture, which I referred to in the caption, but perhaps my all-time favourite, the two-piece rear upstairs window on the post-war Leyland bodies, to go along with the Leyland wheel trims to which you refer. As always, the devil is in the details. If somebody was to put out an expensive hardback volume on emergency window design, I’d be first in line to buy it. Or perhaps you would; hopefully they’d sell more than two copies. Agreed that buses without wheel trims tend to look unfinished somehow. Oddly enough, even though LT painted both wheels and trims brown, a Routemaster with brown wheels and no wheel trims, even though they weren’t chrome, just doesn’t look right. Thank goodness the LT trolleybus department operated under a different set of rules, and maintained the chrome wheel trims on those magnificent vehicles right to the end.
Dave Careless
17/06/13 – 06:47
Just having a look in my books, both Leyland & AECs did have rear centre hub adornments, instead of the 6 or 8 nuts. The Leyland was especially nice with rings & the Leyland logo. The AECs seem to just have the AEC triangle & letters similar to the radiator badge. Looking in my tram book, there is a picture of Haymarket from around 1936. Quite identifiable were the Weymann emergency exit, but also in the picture were rear emergency exit windows in the sausage shape windows similar to later Roes. If we did not have Roes in 1936, can anyone help me identify them please?
Andy Fisher
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
19/06/13 – 08:00
As promised, here is an interior picture showing the square fluted light fittings. Sadly these are mounted upside down (!) as they always were on Nottingham’s big fleet of 1950 trolleybuses, and the later Park Royal AEC Regents. The correct way was with the securing recess at the bottom edge – or at least, I always thought they looked more balanced that way.
Stephen Ford
19/06/13 – 14:33
Correct again Steven, these were the lights I remember. Going back to the sausage shape emergency exits, could these be Cravens or Roberts?
Andy Fisher
20/06/13 – 07:13
Either, but at at a guess more likely to be Cravens.
David Oldfield
20/06/13 – 07:15
Strange how there is a natural order of things and it’s not always the way things were designed to be! Whatever the ‘designed’ way here, I agree with you, Stephen! Of course, you can’t argue with ’round’ which is how I recall covered lights! However, shades were always better than bare bulbs. It was always a course of annoyance to me when they took the shades off the 1938 UndergrounD stock. Each one of those must have been a time-consuming conversion, when studied.
Sheffield Corporation 1953 AEC Regent III 9631S Roe H33/25R
It’s November 1967 and Sheffield B fleet 2174 is at Central Bus Station ready for an hours journey round the City on the 9 Inner Circle route which is a category A service. The Inner Circle traversed the older inner part of the City through much industry and terraced housing. There were ten of these buses in the batch which were the first genuine 9613S models to enter Sheffield service. The preceding 1952 batch were actually the 9613A version modified in 1953 to synchromesh gearbox specification. 2174 and its fellows were long associated with Leadmill Road Garage being regular performers on the Bradway group of category B services. Platform A of Central Bus Station was on Pond Street itself and the bridge to the rear of the bus gave pedestrian access to the bus station from an elevated walkway on the opposite side of the road. Although much modified, Central Bus Station still exists on the same site still with loading bays where 2174 is standing. The footbridge though has long gone.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
03/10/13 – 08:51
Lovely buses with their Roe bodywork. Shallower windows than the Pullmans of the previous year but with subtly different upper windows from the “standard” (most common) Roe bodies found on the Regent III, Regent V, PD2 and PD3 deliveries between 1955 and 1960. [The front of the upper deck was also more raked.] Only ten of these, and only nine Pullmans, but along with the subsequent Regent Vs they seemed ubiquitous in the Greenhill/Bradway area of my youth. How I remember their musical gearboxes ans raucous exhausts.
David Oldfield
03/10/13 – 08:52
You make mention of category A & B services. I’d be interested in learning what these refer to and were there any other categories?
Paul
03/10/13 – 14:37
Paul. These were explained a year or two back on another post. Yorkshire was the home of several Joint Omnibus Committees (JOCs). They combined Corporation and Railway ownership to give regional services – in the same way that BET and Tilling fleets normally did. [In those regulated days, corporation routes were restricted to the town boundary.] Sheffield, unusually, had three fleets: A fleet owned by the Corporation; the B fleet jointly owned by the Corporation and British Railways’ Board; C fleet owned by British Railways’ Board. The JOCs were set up in the ’20s (1927/8 in Sheffield) – originally with LNER and LMS railways. Sheffield was continuously expanding from 1928 to 1974, hence the “extra” fleet. A fleet (to early twentieth century town boundaries); B fleet (covering territories taken over – primarily from West Riding CC and Derbyshire CC); C fleet for long distances (including Chesterfield, Gainsborough and Manchester – as well as Peak District with towns such as Bakewell and Buxton).
David Oldfield
03/10/13 – 14:37
Paul Sheffield had three categories of service These were the A which were within the city boundary and were wholly run by the corporation The B services which were joint with British RAil and covered the outer suburbs and finally the C services which were wholly the preserve of British Rail and were long distance services to places like Leeds and Manchester. Each group of services had a fleet to run them all run by the general manager B and C fleet buses did not carry the city coat of arms just the fleet name Sheffield The C fleet was in some ways the most interesting as due to British Rail involvement Sheffield could buy Bristol and ECW products. They never bought Bristols but did buy Leyland Leopards with ECW MW style bodies and ECW bodied Leyland Titans. The legal lettering on the C fleet showed the owner as the British Railways Board Although British Rail had involvement in Halifax Todmorden and Huddersfield this was to a far lesser extent than the Sheffield arrangements. The agreement was wound up in the seventies
Chris Hough.
03/10/13 – 14:39
Love the way the bodywork is built flush with the offside of radiator, RT-style. I always thought they looked smarter like this.
Chris Hebbron
03/10/13 – 14:41
Those straight-through exhausts were really something; the bark that the VWE-registered ‘tin front’ Regent III’s made, climbing up Firth Park Road past the park and the boating pool, on their way to High Green on the 73, is a sound I shall never forget. Elegant to look at too, especially in the Roe style livery as new, with dark blue window surrounds and blue front end. Truly marvellous machines.
Dave Careless
03/10/13 – 14:45
The stand on platform A where the bus stands, was not the no9 stand. This was on the end of platform B, virtually 180 degrees in the opposite direction. I used to catch them on my way home from the Army Cadets in Endcliffe. The nos 8 & 9 only had Circular on the destination blind, not City, so this may have been a duplicate, parked up ready for going on another route. In 1967 it would have been old & with all the Atlanteans we had, unlikely to have been on regular daily routes. By 1967 they were mostly using single decker’s on the 8 & 9 routes, (I used to catch these to work in Broomhill each morning). Not sure when, but they had Marshall & later Alexanders, occasionally a Fanfare. I think the Totley bus (Category B) also ran from platform A, they had these kind of buses on that route during the 50s & early 60s. I do remember them having a lovely booming exhaust sound going up the hills. The stand pictured was for the 33, 34, 35 & 36 routes (which I used throughout my school life) towards Heeley & beyond.
Andy Fisher
03/10/13 – 15:42
Expanding the comments by David and Chris, buses could run on any route, as the photograph shows, to meet traffic requirements. It was not unknown to find an A fleet bus on a B or C route, especially at times of holiday duplication into the Peak District. There must have been a complex re-charging system and sometimes mileage accumulated by one section and “owed” to another was run off.
Geoff Kerr
03/10/13 – 15:43
Andy. You are right that the Inner Circular and Totley were originally inside the bus station on Platform B, but I have a niggling gut feeling that one direction did eventually end up on Platform A. Deckers were used on the 8/9 until 1968 – I used it to get to King Ted’d from 1964-1971. In 1968, the early single door Swifts replaced deckers on regular day time service. They had Park Royal bodywork. [The only Marshalls ever bought were the W reg AN68 Atlanteans.] Alexander Leopards occasionally appeared at Rush-hour – as did early Leopards, ECW and Burlingham as well as Weymann Fanfare. I feel that, partly because of the age, 2174 may have been doing a rush-hour extra and that the City may be to indicate it is terminating there.
David Oldfield
04/10/13 – 06:18
Thanks to David, Chris & Geoff for the info. Sheffield was clearly an interesting place to be bus wise back then.
Paul
04/10/13 – 06:18
2174 was originally part of a batch of ten delivered to the “B” fleet in 1953 which comprised numbers 168-177. According to CC Hall, they were renumbered 2168-2177 in 1967 to accommodate computer accounting and as the batch is given as being withdrawn during 1967-1968, presumably 2174 is nearing the end of its days.
Here’s a picture of 170 looking absolutely superb when new in the paint scheme used on Roe bodies before the general manager of the 1960’s decided he knew better! Photo courtesy of The Tom Robinson Collection
John Darwent
04/10/13 – 06:19
In connection with the C fleet do not forget that they also ran to Bradford on service 66 joint with Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woollen. In the 1960s I was a conductor with YWD and worked on this route. Sometimes our bus would develop a fault at the Sheffield end and then we would be given a STD machine as a change over. What a treat this would be and we did not want to give up the bus. I remember an occasion when a STD bus broke down in Heckmondwike and the crew were given one of their old Leyland PD2s as a change over. I suppose they thought they had seen the last of them.
Philip Carlton
04/10/13 – 08:41
But the Sheffield buses “given” to Woollen were not time expired. Just another “political” move. They were owned by the Railways and as that system had been superseded by NBC, the owner had not changed, just the operator. [Yes they were approaching the end of their lives.]
David Oldfield
04/10/13 – 11:11
In addition to YWD getting some ex Sheffield C fleet vehicles Halifax also received a number of Leyland Leopards with bodywork by Burlingham while Todmorden gained a trio of ECW bodied Leopards by 1971 all were in the Calderdale fleet. The Burlingham bodied ones did not last long but the ECW bodied trio passed to the PTE in 1974.
Chris Hough
04/10/13 – 17:23
I have long been aware of the Railway involvement at Sheffield, Halifax, Todmorden and Huddersfield and some of the above posts (and those previously) indicate how vehicles might be borrowed and mileage adjustments made or balanced. What I do wonder is how other aspects of the operation worked. For example were all the road staff employed by one body (presumably the Corporation), were they interchangeable between areas, and indeed how did the depot and maintenance and also the admin operation work. One can imagine a most complex charging and recharging system with lots of room for argument.
Gordon Green
05/10/13 – 08:32
I have said as much before, but the place to stand was Snig Hill, waiting to cross to Castle Market. Barking AEC’s- some had got it just right, others chuffed like valve or governor bounce (those were the days)- but also the tin front Leylands with a seemingly continuous blast of compressed exhaust from a smaller pipe. The heat & blast would sweep across your legs. I remember a man shouting “That’ll singe yer nylons luv…”
Joe
05/10/13 – 08:35
Gordon I don’t know about Sheffield but in Todmorden there was only one depot while in Huddersfield the two depots were a motor bus depot for the JOC and a depot for the corporation owned trolleys (Huddersfield had no motor buses until the early sixties). Not only was there two depots in Huddersfield there was also two liveries a streamlined one (red and cream) for the corporation and a red one with thin cream bands for the JOC. Halifax also has two depots at Elmwood one of which was nominally the corporations while the other was for the JOC. The Halifax livery was a standard layout for both fleets.
Chris Hough
05/10/13 – 15:40
I bought a book yesterday showing Pond Street bus station before it was covered, all scaffolding poles & corrugated iron roofs. It had a picture of the Totley bus stand, near the end of platform B. It was an early 60s picture. The bus was an AEC 3?, with what looked like a pre 1945 Weymann body, with the smaller drivers front window. Did buses have a milometer? If not, how did management structure servicing dates? it would make it easier to use B & C category buses on A routes & vice versa.
Andy Fisher
06/10/13 – 07:55
Andy. If it was pre-war, it would have been a Regent (I). The AECs had a speedo and one other gauge. There would have been a mileage counter on the speedo. The immediate post-war Weymanns were 1947/8 Regent IIIs. I can remember Pond Street as you describe it before the mid-fifties redevelopment – as shown above on the post. [The vehicle behind 2174 – on the 71 – is almost certainly one of Greenland’s PDR1/1/Weymann (or MCCW?). They also used the first Fleetlines (951-3) on this route.
David Oldfield
06/10/13 – 07:57
When the JOC was wound up, Sheffield had five depots – Leadmill, Townhead Street, East Bank, Greenland and Herries. The last three were purpose built for buses. I remember Townhead St being closed in the late 60s but I believe the other four survived at deregulation. The JOCs did not employ any staff – crews and office staff were all employed by the Corporation, which also owned the garages.
Geoff Kerr
06/10/13 – 14:22
I notice that 2174 has an advertisement for Wigfalls. This was a chain of shops selling TVs and other electrical goods with their head office in Sheffield. We rented our TV from the Dewsbury branch and the service was first class. I suppose their demise was due to the rise of PC World/Currys. Don’t get me started about their lack of service. A month ago I bought a new lap top from them only for the hard drive to pack up. On returning the machine to the shop they had the cheek to say it would cost 50 quid to put right until I quoted the Sale of Goods act then they said it would be repaired under the manufactures warranty. Come back Wigfalls!
Philip Carlton
12/10/13 – 16:27
I remember Wigfalls in Leicester, I bought the latest gadget for my wife, a steam iron, for half-a-crown (12.5p) a week on HP. Those were the days when most buses only had two dials to look at – the speedo and the brake – either vacuum, hydraulic pressure or if you were lucky, air pressure.
Mr Anon
23/10/13 – 15:49
My memories from mid 50s to mid 60s, was that Wigfalls was a hire now, pay weekly firm. Everyone had their twin tub Hoover washers from them & fridges when they became available, I suppose because of the cost. People also hired their TVs from them, either weekly or with a coin meter on the back. They were a massive firm, with loads of Bedford CA vans, now no more. Back to the Circle route 8 & 9. Around 1980 to 1983, I had a garage on the island on the bottom of Sutherland Road & Carlisle St. At that time they were using Alexander Y types, both bus & coach equipped. Climbing the steep hill was a beautiful booming noise from the Leyland engines. Maybe, the AECs had quietened down by them.
Andy Fisher
23/10/13 – 16:40
Andy, the Y types were strictly speaking DPs. Sheffield/SYPTE never had any bus versions. Yes they would have resounded off the surrounding walls. By the mid ’80s I think all AECs would have departed.
David Oldfield
23/10/13 – 17:37
For a short while, I regularly drove a preserved SBG Y type Leopard (and X reg Midland – one of the last). It was always fun accelerating along narrow, built up, roads. You don’t get sound effects like that from the modern sewing machines. [Mind you, I think an 0680 Bristol RE makes an even better sound!)
David Oldfield
24/10/13 – 07:53
Can you still rent a television? If it goes “on-the-blink” can a “TV-repair-man” still come out in a van to fix it?? Along with Wigfalls so too have gone DER and Rediffusion. So, apart from locally-liveried buses, local advertisements seem to have gone the same way . . . along with local ITV stations. However, local(ly-designed) bus stop flags seem to be coming back into fashion, to replace the DoE 1970s design. Lose some, win one?
Philip Rushworth
26/10/13 – 07:19
Not quite sure what the Alexanders were, it was some had large sloping windows & some had smaller, more upright numerous ones.
Andy Fisher
23/05/15 – 07:08
Does anyone out there remember Herries Road bus garage, I lived next to the garage in the 1950’s I remember it being built.
Glynn Evans
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/08/18 – 06:04
Whoever said modern buses were like sewing machines…. I’m not so sure..the early Omnidekas at Brighton & Hove used to make a fantastic noise as I drove them up Elm Grove on 22s & took me back to the noise of NWRCC Royal Tigers on some of the hilly local routes round Matlock in the 1960s
Sheffield Corporation 1949 AEC Regent III 9612E Craven H30/26R
A pair of withdrawn Craven bodied Regent III are evident in this picture taken on the parking area behind East Bank Garage in May 1966. Further along the row is another one with the front number plate in the raised position (presumably to reduce accidental damage). The next in line to the Cravens pair is 431, a 1950 Northern Coachbuilders bodied Regent III, note a similar bus just visible at the extreme right contrasting the grey and cream painted roofs. The same applies to the two all Leyland PD2/1 that can be seen. This area was the gathering ground for withdrawn buses pending being towed away by one of the Barnsley scrap dealers.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
25/01/15 – 10:57
Thanks for posting this gem Ian. As a boy, I would cycle from Birley to see the latest line-up on the roof of Eastbank garage (the journey back up could be a challenge). I’m surprised to see that the fleet numbers have not been blacked out in the traditional fashion. Any chance of a larger picture?
Les, I suspect these had only recently been withdrawn. May 1966 would have been when large numbers of Atlantean PDR1/2 with Park Royal or Neepsend bodies were entering service. To the best of my knowledge fleet numbers etc were always painted out prior to collection for scrap. Cycling up East bank Road?? No thank you!
Ian Wild
31/01/15 – 06:30
The very handsome locally built Cravens Regents were well thought of in Sheffield with some giving 18 years service in the city. Here’s 231 of the 1949 delivery looking splendid when new in the manufacturer’s official photo.
John Darwent
01/02/15 – 06:55
Today’s “stylists” and image-mongers and dreamers-up of nightmare liveries could learn a lot from this dignified vehicle.
Ian T
01/02/15 – 09:17
Oh, how I concur with your opinion, Ian. Fairly locally to me, Norfolk Green had a smart, traditionally applied livery in contrasting shades of green. Since the Stagecoach takeover the livery (and the service reliability) has plummeted to abysmal levels. The front three quarters is now a ‘swooped’ grey, followed by vestigial traces of green. The immediate impression on approach is of a military vehicle. One half expects the destination to display “Rations – No Lifts”.
