Sheffield Corporation 1968 AEC Swift 2P2R Park Royal B53F
Sheffield took delivery of two batches of AEC Swifts in 1968. The 2P2R type was fitted with the AH691 engine, ideal for the Sheffield hills. The first 11 buses were single doorway for the Joint Committee B fleet as shown here. These buses were initially put to work on the Inner Circle services 8 and 9 despite these being category A services. 1023 is seen here so employed when just a few weeks old at Hunters Bar. The Inner Circle routes took one hour for a round trip serving the older and inner parts of the City. The small window beneath the nearside windscreen had a roller blind behind which could be set to either blank (as here) or Please Pay as you Enter as appropriate.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
29/06/20 – 06:21
Who knows? I could have been lurking within 1023. I was a pupil of King Edward VII School on Newbold Lane from 1964-1971 and these were my regular mode of transport to and from school from 1968. Fast and smooth but, in retrospect, not the equal of the RE. Ironic that, shortly afterwards, an order for the superb RE was changed for the flawed VRT.
David Oldfield
15/07/20 – 06:45
I think you and I spent many a happy hour waiting for these Swifts and before that – whatever could be mustered from East Bank Road depot at that time in the morning, be it a 30ft long AEC Regent V with Weymann, Alexander or Roe bodywork, a PD3, Atlantean, Fleetline or even something older. What a splendid mix was the Sheffield fleet right up to the 1970s. The Swifts had a hard life climbing up and down the ferocious hills of the Steel City to Lodge Moor, Gleadless, Upperthorpe, Walkley and, as here, on the Inner Circle. Of course they never looked as good as this once taken over by the South Yorkshire PTE.
Philip Hanwell
17/07/20 – 07:33
Yes, it was a bit of a hotch potch just prior to the Swifts. Not sure about the B fleet Regents Vs or Fleetlines, but we certainly had the rest – and older. [Not to mention the fleet of almost retired Regent IIIs and PD2s used to ferry us to games at Trapp Lane and Castle Dyke.]
This was a one off purchase by Sheffield initially used for visits, inspections etc by the Transport Committee but later used in normal service. My mother travelled on it on a number of occasions on service 48 to Manchester via Woodhead when visiting relations ‘over there’. Having a centre entrance made it unsuitable for one man operation but it still lasted until 1970. Since much of the Peak District single deck work had by this time been converted to OMO, I wonder what use was made of it in the final two or three years. The bus was renumbered 90 in the 1967 scheme and I recall it being in a pretty dreadful external condition towards the end of its life. This was Sheffield’s only AEC Reliance (perhaps experience suggested the Leyland 0.600 engine in the early Leopards was a better bet than the head gasket failure prone AEC AH470) and their only coach body built by Roe. I think it is quite an elegant design from what was generally a bus body builder. I assume it would be teak framed like their standard double deck design . Note the non standard size Sheffield Transport fleet name transfer above the City coat of arms.
Oh the blessed 900/90. What Ian says from both a professional and enthusiast perspective is quite right, but the Leopards came later. The story I heard was about Civic Spite – between Sheffield and Leeds. Leeds bought one and Sheffield had to have one as well. [Bit like Salford and Manchester.] I assume the 1955 Moncoaches were AH470 rather than AH410, but I agree dry-liner 0.600s were probably a better bet than wet-liner AH470s for charging across the Pennines and into the Peak District. As Charles H Roe’s biggest fan, I’m a little sorry that the Dalesman didn’t quite take off into great popularity – but that wasn’t really the point. Just as Plaxton’s built buses in the summer to cover their dead period, Roe built batches of Dalesmans for sale from stock when they had fallow periods of bus construction. [On that basis, I suppose it’s surprising they built so many Dalesmans!] The construction was of Roe’s original and best.
David Oldfield
20/06/12 – 08:17
David. you’re probably aware of this already, but Economic of Whitburn had one of these splendid vehicles on an AEC chassis ‘YPT 796’ and I’m pleased to say that its still alive and well and now forms part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection
Ronnie Hoye
20/06/12 – 08:18
Leeds first coach came in 1965 and was an AEC Reliance with a different style of Roe bodywork. It was always used as a private hire vehicle and never as a committee toy! Indeed the only saloons in the Leeds fleet at that time were some centre entrance standee types on Leyland AEC and Guy chassis seating 34 and some newer Reliances with dual door bodywork. All carried Roe bodies and had mountainous steps. They were certainly not coaches! Locally West Riding had a batch of AEC Reliance coaches with Dalesman bodywork
Chris Hough
20/06/12 – 11:38
These stories which go the rounds….. I actually drove the Leeds coach when in the ownership of David Crowther’s Classic Coaches of High Wycombe. [In lousy weather from Reading to Lord’s Cricket ground – and back.] The Dalesman was dropped after the slightly odd final version in 1959, of which Black & White had, I believe, six. After that, the Roe coach was far closer to a DP on the standard bus shell. Leeds and York Pullman showed how to “coachify” the body to make it more than acceptable for Private Hires – as did Booth and Fisher. Ronnie, I was aware of the Economic coach, but not its continued existence. Thanks for the good news. Regrettably this Sheffield exile in Surrey may never get to see it in your beautiful part of the world.
David Oldfield
20/06/12 – 11:39
There are shots of both the Economic and also a West Riding example at www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 06:43
There are some interesting comments above and on other pages of this site regarding civic jealousy, rather than civic pride, when it came to having a coach in the fleet. In Southampton, there was a period when the then Transport Manager wanted at least dual purpose vehicles if not full coaches, to support his growing private hire business. The idea was rejected by the Committee, largely because one of the members was of the family owning a local coach operator. Shouldn’t there have been a declaration of interest? I imagine from the photo that this coach was in overall cream livery. I feel it would have looked better with the lower panels – where the crest is – in blue.
Pete Davies
21/06/12 – 06:44
The story goes that on one of its first outings with the Transport Committee on board, 9000 WB ground to a halt in the centre of the city, needing rescue. Apparently before leaving Townhead Street garage, the driver had topped it up with water, but had poured it into the the fuel tank instead of the radiator. Can’t begin to imagine what the Committee chairman had to say about that!
Dave Careless
21/06/12 – 06:44
It was known amongst Sheffield Transport staff as the “blunderbus”!
P White
21/06/12 – 06:45
Felix of Hadfield also had a “coachified” AEC Reliance- Roe DP vehicle which is happily still around it lives at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 06:46
David O, I don’t understand your passing reference to Salford and Manchester. Salford had a committee coach – a self-indulgent 26-seat Weymann Fanfare-bodied Reliance that rarely turned a wheel – but I don’t believe Manchester did.
Peter Williamson
21/06/12 – 11:22
Peter. Sometimes the brain is faster than the finger. Manchester always had some sort of coach for Ringway services, Salford had to have one and, like Sheffield, the only true use was for the Committee. Yes, the Fanfare got more use in SELNEC days on airport work. [I believe its predecessor was a full fronted Daimler CVD6/Burlingham.
David Oldfield
21/06/12 – 11:25
Did Roe have any liaison with Duple over the Dalesman as it bears more than a passing resemblance to the Duple Elizabethan body. Similarly the last version of the Dalesman has a look of the contemporary Willowbrook Viscount One of these ex Felix of Hadfield is also preserved at Sandtoft.
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 19:06
Just for the record, Sheffield used its other coaches (23 I believe) on the longer routes, for example the Peak District routes / railway routes.
Les Dickinson
21/06/12 – 19:12
It is said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I think that Roe were probably just inspired by the Elizabethan and copied the general outline of the front entrance version, with its slightly more upright front, yet making it sufficiently different in detail so as not to cause any bother. The Dalesman’s window line was a fraction higher and slightly straighter, and the forward sloping pillar that divided these from the front section was slightly squarer. I rather prefer the Dalesman myself, but Duple soon replaced the Elizabethan with the neater Brittania with its uninterrupted window line, whereas Roe continued with the stepped outline.
John Stringer
07/08/12 – 07:19
I suspect this was as much to do with civic pride as anything else. If Leeds has got one, we must too and vice versa. LCT certainly had a Reliance coach, C reg I think. Then there was SCTs 500 City Clipper service, cos Leeds had one, using Merc minibuses. It continues today with the nonsense over trams.
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Alexander H37/28R
This photo was taken just after lunch but as you can see this Regent V has the interior lights on, what a miserable day that was. I know this is not a very good shot but it is worth posting due to the fact that most Alexander bodied Regent Vs were delivered north of the border with the majority of them being to Glasgow Corporation. I think this vehicle one of a batch of 20 delivered to the Sheffield A fleet were the only ones delivered new to an English operator, if I am incorrect I am sure someone will let me know.
Sheffield like quite a few municipalities had separate fleets wholly or jointly owned within the overall operation.
Sheffield had three fleets A, B and C and were owned as follows.
A fleet Corporation owned (fleet numbers 1-999 in 1965)
B fleet Jointly owned by the Corporation and British Railways (fleet numbers 1251-1400 in 1965)
C fleet British Railways owned (fleet numbers 1150-1250 in 1965)
If you want to know the full specification for the Regent V 2D3RA you can look it up under the Regent V abbreviations here.
The only operator of this style of Alexander outside Scotland to predate them was Cardiff – definitely not England.
861 – 880 were the precursors of many Alexander bodies for STD, SYPTE and then Mainline. They looked good, and being AECs were good and sounded good. For some reason, the numbers didn’t add up. The Weymann and Roe 2D3RAs were all H39/30R(D – Roe) with bags of leg room. The Alexanders were H37/32R and whilst lack of legroom downstairs was understandable, what wasn’t was the distinct lack of room with fewer seats upstairs.
I have an unsubstantiated theory about the design – can anyone confirm, or squash it? Many 1940/50s Alexander deckers were built on Weymann (pre Orion) frames before this design emerged. Is it too fanciful to suggest that it was based on the same design and frames as the Rochdale Regent Vs and Sheffield Regent IIIs and Titan PD2s? [Curved domes and side windows?]
This Regent is on route 92 Manor Park – very close to the City Centre and would normally have had City on the blind. The photograph looks as if it was taken very close to the new Supertram depot and Park and Ride site which was not a regular haunt for these Regents. When new they could be seen on the 95 and 75 tram replacement routes and also drifted onto 60 and 38. Was this taken late in its life? The Alexanders and Roes were divided between Leadmill and East Bank garages, the Weymanns were all, I think, at East Bank.
874 was immaculately restored some years ago and is a regular on the northern rally circuit. But (trivia time), why did the last one (880) have a different type and style of rear number plate? I don’t know! If you know please leave a comment.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
Enjoyed the posting and the comment from David Oldfield with respect to the Alexander bodied Regent V’s. I must confess to liking the Weymanns a bit more, but the Scottish bodies certainly stood out with that rounded dome. When still relatively new, I remember these Alexanders often making a Saturday appearance on the 34 Petre Street – Graves Park, along with some of the Weymann ones, running from East Bank, and they looked even more unusual on there, alongside the 1947 vintage Weymann bodied Regent III’s of the 558-572 batch that were still the mainstay of this service at the time. In fact two 30 footers arriving at Reform Chapel within minutes of each other was apt to cause a bit of a problem, as there wasn’t a lot of room to spare at the bus stop alongside the chapel opposite the chip shop! I think the reason for 880 having a different rear end, with the registration plate in the standard position at the offside corner was that it had a rear end collision at some point, and emerged from Queens Road after repair in the altered state, thus making it unique in the batch. When new, a colleague informs me that all the Alexanders initially went to Bramall Lane for the 33 and the 75 tram replacement routes, with the 26 Weymanns being split between Bramall Lane and Leadmill Road. Noteworthy on the Alexanders was the first offside window behind the cab being a hinged emergency escape window, something which of course the Weymanns didn’t have. At least three of those superb Roe bodied ones were at Townhead Street when new, for use on the 85 to Retford, and also on the Dinnington services, where their platform doors were no doubt very well received, especially in the cold weather. The story has it that the Roe bodies initially lacked a centre stanchion on the platform, these being fitted sometime later after an unfortunately fatal accident which was attributed to the lack of a grab pole. More trivia!
Dave Careless
03/03/11 – 08:53
Dave. Thanks for filling in the allocation details. Townhead Street and Branhall Lane were operational when I was very young but had closed by the time I became really interested. I had forgotten, but you are absolutely right in every respect about the Roe centre stanchion and the fatality.
David Oldfield
04/03/11 – 07:39
Thanks David, I’m pleased you found that of interest. Those Roe bodied Regent V’s were wonderful machines, I always felt they looked a lot more elegant when they were new, with the standard Roe version of the Sheffield livery, with the blue window surrounds, and the classy bodybuilders gold transfer on the waistband, at the side of the cab and just forward of the entrance, very smart indeed. And the styling of that Roe emergency window simply couldn’t be beat! After Chaceley T. Humpidge took over as General Manager in 1961, and did away with the livery variations, including the grey roof after first overhaul (not that any of 1325-1349 ever saw this application), the Roes never looked quite as smart in the standard cream with blue bands, but that’s merely a personal preference. It’s a pity that you missed Townhead Street in its heyday, as that was quite something to see, with the trams downstairs in the basement and the buses up above, and a parking area along the side where half-cab single deckers seemed to invariably sit. Mind you, passing Greenland Road or Herries Road late at night, with the lights blazing and the garage and forecourt stuffed full of immaculate cream and blue buses, was equally as breath taking if you were an enthusiast! Quite often my father would indulge me and pull the car over for a few minutes so I could savour the atmosphere and jot down a few numbers; happy days.
Dave Careless
04/03/11 – 17:19
Happy days indeed, Dave. Barbie just doesn’t do it. Nor does red, white and blue – but at least Mr Souter does know how to run a bus company even if Dennis Dust Carts have as much charisma as a wet weekend in….. (fill your own space – I don’t want to upset friends on this site!) If you read any other posts, you’ll know my thing is AEC, Roe and Burlingham – so 1325-49 are my all time favourites, followed by the nine 1952 Regent IIIs. [I too preferred the Weymanns over the Alexanders.] Strangely enough, my favourite PD2s were the 1952 all Leylands which eventually gained Roe style livery after being delivered in green. I believe they were the only brand new green deliveries – or were the 1952 Regent/Roe rebuilds also delivered in green?
David Oldfield
06/03/11 – 08:06
You’ve got my vote there, David; funnily enough, those twelve OWB registered PD2’s were far and away my favourite Sheffield Titans also, they somehow looked a cut above the Faringtons, I think it was those push-out vents in the upstairs front windows that gave them the edge! Before I came to Canada in the late fifties, I made a regular weekly excursion with my mother from Rotherham to the grandmother’s in the east end of Sheffield, accomplished by bus and tram, a 69 from Rotherham to Attercliffe, and a tram from the corner of Newhall Road to Upwell Street, and reverse. In those days, the 69 offering was either a Sheffield PD2 or a Rotherham Crossley, either of which was guaranteed to provide a memorable journey, but if it happened to be one of the OWB’s that turned up, then that was definitely a bonus. The unmistakeable sound and steady beat of that Leyland engine is such a strong recollection that I can almost hear it now as I sit typing in Canada fifty plus years later. The world seemed to be a different place then, and I also travelled on the bus unaccompanied a lot at an age where it would be deemed unthinkable to allow children to do so today. I once travelled to Sheffield upstairs on a Rotherham Crossley that was packed with Sheffield Wednesday supporters heading to an evening match, and the air upstairs was blue with cigarette smoke and strong language, to the extent that I was enjoying it so much that instead of alighting at Newhall Road as I was supposed to, stayed on into the Wicker and had to catch another bus back to the east end. I can still see and hear that Crossley now, pulling away up the Wicker towards the terminus at Waingate, well down on its springs at the back with the nearly full load and trailing a plume of exhaust smoke behind it into the city centre. Those weekly outings on the 69 were sorely missed when they eventually came to an end. Of course, one of the OWB’s, 666, lived on as gritter/towing tender G56 for many years, and was a regular sight at one time, struggling back to East Bank with yet another broken down Atlantean hanging off its back. I’m not sure how, but even with its upper deck and most of the back end missing, it still managed to look more elegant than half the modern things it was sent out to rescue!! Not quite sure just when and where those Roe rebodied FWA-Regents got their green paint applied David, that one needs a fair bit of research. Good question though.
Dave Careless
06/03/11 – 09:06
Strange. An exile in Surrey corresponding with an exile in Canada. Good this internet, eh? I first went solo, on a bus, aged ten. From Greenhill to Woodseats on an SWE Regent III – and similar back – on an errand for my father. Mission accomplished, my second solo was to town and back on the same afternoon on two similar vehicles. After that, there was no going back! My experience of the 6** PD2s was mostly on the 93 and occasionally the 32 to visit Grandparents. They never seemed to be on the 23 when I visited the other Gps.
David Oldfield
09/03/11 – 06:05
Those SWE-Regents were cracking machines, superb looking, with their chromium wheel nut rings, which they seemed to keep right to the end, and the sound they made, with that straight-through exhaust, was quite something. What one wouldn’t give for a run from Greenhill to Woodseats and back on one of them today. Even my father, who wasn’t into buses at all, was heard to remark ” …. those Sheffield buses have a wonderful bark to them!” I still have a slide I persuaded him to take one day at Reform Chapel, in the east end, of SWE 281 waiting patiently for the crew to return from the nearby cafe before setting off for Hollythorpe Rise. Could that really have been 49 years ago??!!
Dave Careless
10/03/12 – 07:42
Talking of the terminus at Reform Chapel, we had a choice of two routes to centre at that time, the 34 Petre St to Graves Park or the 17 Sheffield Lane Top to Millhouses Park which had been recently been a tram service, being only about eight or nine when the trams ran, I wish I had been a little older so I would have had more interest in the trams, as it was my brother and I loved to stand at the front of the bus looking out over the engine compartment, which we considered the best view out of the bus, how disappointed we were when the Atlanteans were introduced and lost this vantage point! The uses on the 17 route were usually Leyland PD3’s as I found out later in life, as it sped down Attercliffe Road, we peered at the square speedometer to see if the bus would get up to or even break the 40 mph barrier, my fathers car at that time was a two cylinder Transit sized Jowett Bradford van which struggled to get over 30 mph downhill with wind behind us! Great days which the children of today will never know the adventure of bus travel, the smell, the noise and the vibration, more’s the pity.
David T
10/03/12 – 15:58
It’s hard to believe that an OWB was used as a towing tender, with something like a mere 36bhp on hand! That’s really pushing such a willing workhorse to near cruelty!
Chris Hebbron
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Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/03/12 – 07:47
With great respect David T I had to chuckle at the promotion of the Jowett Bradford van to “Transit” size – I think that such a colossal vehicle would have brought the willing little power unit to its knees, but the Bradford was a wonderful little van of around “Escort” size. In 1960 there was in Ilkley a delightful very elderly posh lady who used the most decrepit of all Bradford vans – both front wings were literally almost falling off and several volunteers were regularly needed to push start the van on the Ilkley car park. Well Mrs. S***** used to revel in telling us of her exploits and narrow escapes with a mischievous twinkle in her weary old eyes. My favourite (and one of her best) was when she was on the A59 in Preston heading for Blackpool – descending a hill towards the huge Tulketh cotton mill she encountered a bobby on cross roads point duty with hand raised – shooting past him she eventually rolled to a stop to find the PC chasing after her, notebook and pencil at the ready. “Have you no brakes on this vehicle” demanded The Law – leaving him perplexed as she set off Mrs. S***** replied “Of course I have officer – they simply failed to function !!”
Chris Youhill
11/03/12 – 07:50
I almost fell for that one Chris H!!
Chris Barker
11/03/12 – 08:56
Forgive me for being off topic but Chris Y’s tale of that Jowett Bradford van brought back old memories of one owned by Mr Mc.Maughan a local painter and decorator who was a bit of a carefree old sort and used to wipe his brushes out on the side of his van! Originally a mid fawn colour, it became covered in hundreds of multicoloured stripes.. it didn’t go any faster though..30 mph was a dream! Mentioning paint… when we lived in Conway Road, Brislington, Bristol, our neighbour Bert Staddon was an engineer at Bristol Commercial Vehicles and once hit on the strange idea of painting the stonework of his house in BCV silver chassis paint. That was in 1958 and to this day, it is still clearly evident but must have puzzled many people over the years..good stuff though! Again..total apologies for this thread drift.
Richard Leaman
11/03/12 – 15:48
As a youngster I made regular Sunday trips to Sheffield to see relatives. We travelled from Leeds to Sheffield Midland station, we then walked across the city to the terminus of the sixty nine to Rotherham. The buses seen were always of interest particularly the early Atlanteans which were unheard of in Leeds. Sheffield’s buses always seemed very different to those in Leeds Usually our steed was a Leyland Titan which always had a fair turn of speed they had string bell pulls which again were unknown in Leeds as was the strap placed across the platform when the bus was full. Prior to nineteen sixty if we were upstairs on the bus I got a glimpse of Tinsley tram depot with many cars resting from their labour, strangely I don’t recall ever seeing a Sheffield car actually running. It all seems very different to today were only the destinations tell you that you are in a different place
Chris Hough
11/03/12 – 19:33
Chris Y – Lovely tale about the Bradford. I have a friend who worked for Brooke Bond and they trundled around the country stocking up shops with Lever Bros/Unilever products. They were allocated Trojan vans, some of the earlier ones still having chain drive! They were gutless and, as a new employee, you covered staff who were on holiday or sick. His first job was in the South Wales Valleys and he got stuck a couple of times on the hills and had to be assisted to the top of hills. He later found that the normal driver had devised a fixed route, which had gentler rises and steeper falls, the only way he could do the rounds! Later models had Perkins diesel engines,, which had a little more power.
Chris Hebbron
11/03/12 – 20:13
The mention of Trojan Vans reminds me that Edinburgh Corporation Passenger Department had a good number as service vans.
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Weymann H39/30R
Nearing the ending of its days, 441 was one of 26 Weymann H39/30R bodied AEC Regent V 2D3RA delivered in April 1960 to replace trams on the penultimate route – Meadowhead to Sheffield Lane Top . There were also 20 Alexander bodied Regent V for the same purpose. The photo was taken on 13 July 1974 at Whirlow Bridge. The presence of the Roe bodied Regent V (also delivered in 1960) in the background and the group of people nearby suggests it was an enthusiasts tour. Presumably 441 was not working on a route from its home garage as the correct destination of Dore is not shown. Orion bodies can look good!!
Couldn’t get much better than that, Ian (two of my favourites) – but could you not have got the Roe bus better, or nearer, or both!!! But of course Orions can look good – especially at 14 years old. With the Roe bus being near the entrance to Whirlow Park, could it have been a wedding hire?
David Oldfield
Are all your photos this good, Ian? Do you have enough for a book? It occurs to me that, good as it is, Charles Hall’s book is photographically incomplete and that must leave scope for a “Glory Days” or some such (of Sheffield Transport) – using your photos and first hand knowledge. After the Roes, these were my favourites, but why the extra long 5 seat benches over each rear wheel arch and why, from 71 in total 1960 Regent Vs, were only a few Weymann’s fitted with exhaust brakes? [It got that I could identify individual buses, with out seeing them, from my desk at school!]
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Roe H39/30RD
This was part of another big order that Sheffield placed with AEC in this case for a total of 71 Regent V 2D3RA model, all delivered in 1960. 1331 was part of the B fleet contingent of 25 buses all of which had this style of Roe bodywork whilst the A fleet received vehicles bodied by Weymann and Alexander. Items to note in comparison with Roe bodied Leyland PD3 fleet number 462 delivered the year previously is the reduction in the number of sliding windows by two in each side of each deck but the inclusion of vents in the front top deck windows plus of course the addition of platform doors. These were manually operated by the conductor and would no doubt be appreciated on some of the longer services such as the 72 to Castleton in the Peak District. I have a watercolour painting done for me many years ago by a good friend of one of this batch operating on service 72 between Bamford and Hathersage. Comparing this bus with Roe bodied Regent III fleet number 1265, the change of livery to include a cream painted radiator surround gives the bus a lighter appearance whilst in this case the legal owner is Sheffield Transport Department. Although many of this batch were withdrawn in 1972 (maybe at the expiry of their second CoF – 7 years initially plus 5 years recertification), my PSV Circle fleet list shows this bus as still in service in October 1973. This is another Coachbuilders official photograph taken at the Roe premises in Crossgates, Leeds.
Here we have it, Ian. My absolute favourites from my Sheffield childhood. Although, for the most part, built at the end of 1959, only about half were delivered on 1 January 1960, the rest were delivered on 1 April with the residue of Weymann and Alexander buses. There was a minor difference in that one sub set had an extra slider (on each side) just behind the bulk-head inside. I think these were what I called the Leadmill set – found on the 12, 22 and 59. The East Bank set were delivered in April and were put to work on the 38. It leads me to surmise that 1331 was an April, East Bank, bus. [Often, lower fleet numbers seemed to arrive before higher ones.] I’m still hoping that 1330, at Aldwarke, will eventually be rebuilt and take to the road.
David Oldfield
05/05/11 – 07:05
A classic photograph, with the fluorescent lights fully on in what was apparently the Roe drawing office in the background, where these wonderful bus bodies were designed and detailed! 1331 as it happens was the last Roe bodied Regent V in service at Sheffield, being finally withdrawn on 13 May, 1976. The other three of the batch which accompanied 1331 into that last year of back loader operation were 1332, 1336 and 1339, the three of them coming off the previous month. For the record, 1331 completed a full last day in service on that May day, shuttling back and forth between Sheffield Lane Top and Bradway on the 76; a fine testament to a superb vehicle.
Dave Careless
05/05/11 – 12:16
Bradway (75)? or Lowedges Road (76)?
David Oldfield
06/05/11 – 06:59
To all, interest in the Sheffield Transport/SJOC matters are certainly gaining momentum! The comments on the later intake of Leyland PD2/20 and 30, followed by the longer PD3/1 vehicles is a very interesting point. Undoubtedly, the problem of the Leyland change in the gearbox specification was a hard blow, particularly with respect to the newly trained, ex tram drivers. Possibly Leyland thought that Sheffield would turn to the Pneumocyclic option. The 40 PD2/20 Roe bodied batch in 1956 were taken into the A fleet, featuring the latest constant mesh/synchromesh gearbox. They were mainly replacement buses and would be driven by experienced drivers. Conversely, as time went by, the former tram men gained more driving experience and were able to master the buses lacking synchromesh on 2nd gear. Very definitely the 30ft long PD3/1/Roe buses, much heavier than the PD2 versions,were a problem to many skilled drivers,on steeply graded routes. To this end, the Chief Driving Instructor Charles Deamer devised a method of “Snatch changing” (a brutal change from 1st to 2nd gear) when starting on steep hills and this method was also used on the PD2’s. However, the driving staff preferred the easier life when in control of the AEC Regent Mark 111 and Mark V versions of 27ft and 30ft buses. Manager C.T.Humpidge re-introduced fluid transmission/Monocontrol to Sheffield A,B,& C fleets in 1964/5 and no further synchromesh buses entered service.
Keith Beeden
06/05/11 – 07:19
Well David, it was a long time ago! Perhaps it did a stint on both, but all I can say is that it was out all day, didn’t break down, and definitely wasn’t on the 33 from Lane Top to Hemsworth!! 1331 had a spell at Bramall Lane garage early in its career, as it shows up there in the allocation list dated 11th January, 1963, (with eight of its sisters, 1325-1330, 1332 and 1349) but that garage closed later that year, so presumably was an East Bank bus after that for most if not all of its working life. Fascinating hobby this, isn’t it!
Dave Careless
06/05/11 – 15:36
Certainly is and its good to know there are other Sheffield expert/enthusiasts out there. We may be outnumbered by the West Yorkshire lot and we can’t post as long as East Yorkshire but we will fly the flag for the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire (!!!).
David Oldfield
07/05/11 – 06:06
At PMT all the Leyland Titans, both PD2 and PD3 had the Leyland GB83 constant mesh second gearboxes. The driving school there taught the snatch change method of getting from 1st to 2nd on a hill start. Although not in the same league as Sheffield, the Potteries area did have a number of steep hills to negotiate. Once you got the hang of it, the snatch change was quite easy. The gear lever travel on the GB83 was much shorter than on the synchromesh second unit (think that was a GB74) which made the buses so fitted that much easier to drive. I queried the non use of synchro 2nd gearboxes at PMT and was told that the constant mesh 2nd gearbox had a generally longer service life between repairs. Even the Matador recovery vehicle had acquired a Leyland 0.600 engine and a GB83 gearbox!
Ian Wild
09/05/11 – 08:16
The Sheffield thread is fascinating. My brother-in-law-to-be was doing a practical stint at Laycock’s in 1960, so I went up to join him for a couple of days and we went merrily tram-riding only months before closure. My very favourites were the 1937 batch, but they were all very stylish, so it’s fitting that the 1959-60 Regents (which I assume were the tram-replacement batches) were so handsome. Even the Bridgemaster (not usually a favourite of mine) is well-proportioned—with the bonus of a prodigious seating capacity. Keith Beeden’s point about hardened gearwheels is an eye-opener: I knew that many variables affected the music of the same gearbox in different vehicle types, but I never realised that mere (!?) metallurgy could play such a part. But it makes sense: cardboard gearwheels wouldn’t sing. Could the hardened teeth that Keith mentions have been used in the NTG…-reg 1954 Rhondda Regent IIIs? They certainly had a distinctive whine. I’ve never driven a PD2 (except for an RTW) so I don’t know whether a clutch stop was fitted or not, but it certainly should have been! A clutch-stop would save wear on the cones when engaging 1st or 2nd from neutral, but I guess the builders judged that synchromesh had made that wonderful, simple device redundant.
Ian Thompson
09/05/11 – 08:19
A driver at Manchester once told me that the problem with the snatch change from first to second on the half-synchro PD2s was that every bus was different. Some required more skill than others, and some would not accept a snatch change no matter what. He found it more reliable to move the lever out of first, across the gate and gently forward, slowing the clutch down on third gear synchromesh, and then snick it quickly back into second.
Peter Williamson
10/05/11 – 07:13
A very ingenious solution, Peter!
Chris Hebbron
10/05/11 – 07:15
Ian, I agree with you about the Sheffield Domed trams (1936 – 1939 + war-time rebuilds). The majority of the tram replacement buses were 27′ Regents and Titans and I think, strictly, the only 30′ Regent V tram replacement buses were the Weymann and Alexander examples (A fleet). The Roe were B fleet – and there were no B fleet trams! I also agree with you about the Bridgemaster which looked good in Sheffield colours and with the traditional back end. It was the front loader which looked all wrong. Was never aware that the Bridgemasters caused any problems with reliability. That being the case, what was really the problem with it? Interesting to think of a comment I read that AEC pondered the possibility of replacing the Regent V AND the Bridgemaster with the Renown. Again, never heard of reliability problems with them either. …..unless anyone out there knows otherwise.
David Oldfield
12/05/11 – 9:39
Thanks for the clarification, David. I’ve never understood the Sheffield A-fleet/B-fleet distinction though, so perhaps you could outline that for me as well.
Ian Thompson
A Fleet: wholly owned by Sheffield Corporation for routes entirely within the City bounds, including those which replaced tram routes.
B Fleet: owned jointly by Sheffield Corporation and the Railway Companies or Boards. [Sheffield expanded its borders progressively from about 1920 until 1974. B fleet routes included some on the outer edge of the City which had previously been in Derbyshire or the West Riding and some which went over the borders.]
C Fleet: owned entirely by the Railway Companies or Boards. These routes included some Derbyshire routes but also all the long routes, including Manchesters and Retford/Gainsboroughs. For most, although not all, of its existence, C Fleet buses shared the same livery and generally similar types to the A (and B) Fleet. Management of all three fleets and routes was common, types of vehicle were similar (although platform doors and different seats may differentiate) and, of course, coaches would be B and C Fleet. The JOC (Joint Omnibus Committee) was set up in 1927 principally with the LMS and LNER Railways. With Nationalisation in 1948 these became Midland and Eastern Regions. The formation of NBC in 1969 caused the disbandment of the JOC – which had in effect performed as a regional bus company such as, and in the territory of, Yorkshire Traction and North Western. Many C Fleet buses were then, at this time, dispersed among NBC subsidiaries, notably Yorkshire Woolen. JOCs seemed to be a very Yorkshire thing – Halifax, Todmorden, Huddersfield – although Railways always had a stake in BET and Tilling companies as well prior to NBC formation. Although the Corporation retained most Derbyshire work, the remaining Manchester route (48) became a North Western operation and many of the others became joint with operators with whom they had previously work anyway.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/01/12 – 16:34
A somewhat belated response to the comment on snatch gear changes with Leyland PD2’s and PD3’s. I learned to drive in a PD1 in 1962 and was taught the technique at that time, as this was with Eastbourne Corporation there being no serious hills to contend with I can’t remember having to use it. However I joined Southdown in 1969 at Eastbourne and soon had cause to brush up the trick especially on the 12 route to Brighton which also included trips to estates at West Dene and Tongdean on the outskirts of Brighton which were very hilly (one reason the PD3/5’s went west). Probably the worst stop was at Downs Golf club 2/3rd’s of the way up the hill out of Eastbourne, not something you looked forward to with a good load of holidaymakers in the summer. I’ve never heard of the trick told to Peter Williamson, of using the synchro on 3rd gear to slow the gearbox when changing 1st to 2nd but I did use the same method but using 4th to make selecting 2nd gear when stationary much easier and quieter otherwise 2nd would grate noisily, I read this somewhere but can’t remember where. The same technique worked equally well when used with the direct air operated Pneumocyclic box as it cut out the jolt when engaging 2nd when stationary.
Sheffield Corporation 1963 AEC Regent V 2D2RA Park Royal H38/32F
After several years of deliveries of rear engined double deckers, Sheffield bought batches of forward entrance for all three fleets in 1963 and 1964. This bus was from the first batch and is seen in May 1967 at the Oughtibridge terminus of service 18. Although four years old by this time, the bus appears to be in its original coat of paint with red lining below the lower blue band and the gold front fleet number. Brian commented recently on Sheffield Bridgemaster 525 that it was used on the service 7 to Stannington, I think it more likely that the bus(es) he recalls was one of these not dissimilar looking vehicles which were regular performers on that service.
Strange how companies ‘borrow – steal?’ design ideas from each other, I would be hard pushed to spot the difference between some Alexander and MCW bodies, and to me the upper deck on this vehicle could have come straight out of the Orion stable rather than Park Royal
Ronnie Hoye
03/09/12 – 07:50
These were essentially Herries buses for the north of the city – including the bit of the West Riding which would become part of the city after the 1974 Local Government Act became law. The 18 was the Oughtibridge route (on the main Manchester via Flouch Inn corridor) but a favourite haunt for the park Royal regent Vs was the 91/98 Grenoside/Ecclesfield Circular. I thought that 64 – 73 with Weymann bodies were better looking but apparently they suffered from being amongst the last bodies completed at Addlestone and the quality of finish was not up to traditional Weymann standards. Pity, though. These were delivered to East Bank in August 1963 and spent their formative years on the 28/43 group of Herdings routes.
Ian, there is an extant picture of 525 (in Charles Halls’ book) on the 70 to Wombwell – so she did creep north of the city centre.
David Oldfield
04/09/12 – 06:44
Could it also be a BET Standard? BET “asked” PRV to change the original Bridgemaster from Classic PRV style and construction to steel framed “Box on Wheels” that it became. That is when PRV began to look more and more like the Orion.
David Oldfield
04/09/12 – 08:34
A pair of identical Regents ended up with Hebble when the Sheffield C fleet was disbanded in 1970. They always stood out by virtue of their Sheffield style indicators they were then passed to Yorkshire Woollen when Hebble disappeared a year later.
Chris Hough
05/09/12 – 06:50
That was 1150/1151 – and they were joined by some 1962 Atlanteans and the infamous ECW/PD2s.
David Oldfield
05/09/12 – 06:51
And after that, the two of them left Yorkshire for good, ending up with KMB in Hong Kong. They were rebodied with MetSec bodywork, and ended their days in a scrapyard, in the Chinese version of Barnsley!
Dave Careless
05/09/12 – 08:35
PRV and Roe both seemed to take a liking to those rather obvious ventilation extractors on the upper deck around this period – the fact that they weren’t more widely adopted might hint at their usefulness. To me, for some reason (familiarity perhaps?), two fog/spot lights have never looked right on a half-cab: I can only think of AEC fitting two fogs/spots, but did Leyland? – I’m sure I’ve never seen a Daimler or Guy with two. Whatever, to me this bus has a brutal purposefulness about it – a classic in terms of both design and livery.
Philip Rushworth
05/09/12 – 08:36
It’s only my opinion, but my vote for the best looking half cabs ever would go to the Park Royals of about the mid to late 50’s. Southdown had them, Newcastle had both high and low bridge versions on AEC Regent V chassis, Northern General Group had them on Guy Arab IV’s, and a later batch of PD2’s with rear doors. To be fair the Leeds Roe bodied Regent V’s were also a handsome beast, but I prefer the PR’s
Ronnie Hoye
05/09/12 – 08:37
Can you give us any details please, David, of how and when BET ‘asked’ PRV to alter their design and construction?
Roy Burke
06/09/12 – 06:48
Sorry, Ronnie, but my vote always goes to Roe. I will agree with you after that – and don’t forget the COMS Regents with similar PRV bodies. Roy. Regret that I cannot give documentary details – I do not own the book that contained the information. (It was a paperback about significant prototypes vehicles.) Briefly: Crossley were allocated the task of developing the Bridgemaster and they were also producing a clone of Ronnie’s favourite PRV body at the time. Apart from being extremely attractive, it had, I believe aluminium construction – like the Routemaster. ACV were anxious to attract BET orders, but BET wanted a simple steel-framed construction with single skinned domes – in other words an Orion clone. This was around 1958, when Crossley finally closed down, and production moved to PRV in London. This resulted in the dreadful box-like front-end design of the Bridgemaster (even though initially the rear dome was the same as “standard”) and the same single skinned interior panels (again like early lightweight Orions). I believe there is also passing reference in “The Blue Triangle” (Alan Townsin).
David Oldfield
06/09/12 – 07:19
With respect to the intake of the 1964/56 series of AEC Regent V/Park Royal vehicles I can add a little information on their purchase. From the early sixties, Sheffield Transport Dept favoured the rear engined double decker, giving up to 78 seats. The general Manager C.T Humpidge, the successor to R.C.Moore from 1961, did favour the traditional front engine design. When the Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee needed replacement vehicles, Mr Humpidge suggested that the AEC Regent/PRV version would be a cheaper option than the Atlantean or Fleetline.
Keith Beeden
07/09/12 – 07:33
Whilst I agree with David about the aesthetics and quality of traditional Roe body work, I do come down on the side of Ronnie in respect of the Park Royal double deck design of the mid 1950s. The PRV bodied Guy Arab IVs of Southdown – the body style with the deeper windows than the East Kent contemporaries – were, to my eye, the most handsome front engined ‘deckers of all time.
Roger Cox
07/09/12 – 07:34
Mention of C.T.Humpidge reminded me that after retiring from Sheffield Corporation he became The Reverend C.T.Humpidge. There cannot be many bus managers that have done that.
Philip Carlton
07/09/12 – 07:34
Philip’s “brutal purposefulness” description is very good because it really homes in on how Park Royal’s Orion clone differs from the Orion itself. Here’s an Orion for comparison www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ The front tapers inwards in both an upward and forward direction (something that was taken to horrible extremes on tin-front Leylands), and in this case, though not always, is less perpendicular. Not nearly as brutal, is it?
Peter Williamson
08/09/12 – 07:11
Couldn’t agree more, Peter.
David Oldfield
08/09/12 – 07:12
Mr. J.P. Senior, former General Manager at Burnley, Colne and Nelson, then Assistant GM at Ribble became vicar of Heddon-on-the-Wall, Northumberland.
Eric Bawden
08/09/12 – 07:12
I’ve just discovered that the Park Royal site www.prv.org.uk/ has recently been updated with a large number of images, which are worth taking a look at. Many of them are rear-end views, which is very useful given the variety of rear domes that Park Royal used during this period, which tended to either accentuate or mitigate the box-on-wheels effect.
Peter Williamson
08/09/12 – 07:14
It is the front end perpendicularity (assuming there is such a word!) that I always found distasteful – whether on these, Bridgemasters or indeed front entrance Lodekkas (plus, of course, the original housebrick style Atlanteans). They all looked ungainly, as though they were about to trip over their front wheels and fall flat on their faces in the road! I’ll also earn some flak by saying that I liked the Orion, especially exposed radiator types. Well, having gone so far I may as well wreck what remaining credibility I have by saying I also liked the shape of the Leyland National – though I fully understand its innumerable mechanical shortcomings. Both it and the Orion dared to look like honest to goodness buses instead of space-age adaptations.
Stephen Ford
08/09/12 – 07:15
Philip, pictured elsewhere on this site is a 1959 Roe bodied PD3 Tin front, that also has two fog/spots. I certainly cant remember any other half cabs with more than one, even the twin headlight Green Line RMC’s only had one fog, so it may well be that the practice of fitting two was unique to Sheffield. However, since about 1982 I think, current legislation only allows front fog/spot lights to be fitted in pairs
Ronnie Hoye
09/09/12 – 07:32
The industrial smogs down the Sheffield river valleys could be pretty thick: to get people home in the evening perhaps you needed one for the kerb and one for the white line- or for the conductor walking down the middle of the road!
Joe
09/09/12 – 07:33
I’ve had a look round some of my photos to see whether two foglamps was unusual on half-cabs and I’ve noticed four trends: No foglights – quite a lot of operators didn’t fit foglights at all. Most of the South Wales operators come into that category, but so do Manchester and Salford. One foglight – some operators had a single foglight and didn’t modify the buses. Halifax is an example of this. Rhondda’s Regent Vs had a single one to the end although I did find one that had none. Later fitment of second foglight – Oldham’s tin-front PD2s and exposed-radiator PD3s originally only had a single foglight but were later modified with a second one. The PD3s were so done at their 7-year CoF in 1971. Always two – some operators always had two, or fitted the second at an early date. Southdown’s Queen Marys had two. Stockport’s fleet of PD2s and PD3s all had two, from the 1958 Crossley-bodied examples onwards. South Yorkshire is another surprising example – even their Bond-bodied PD2s had two. Rotherham’s 1965 Daimler CVG6s had two as well.
David Beilby
12/09/12 – 06:58
I recall these Regents at the small Bridge Street bus station, working services 91/98 to Grenoside as stated, also the 73 and 80 to High Green. They were the last front-engined buses in the Sheffield fleets. The reference to smog reminds me that some operators had “fog on route” on their blinds. Oldham and Manchester were two, maybe others.
Geoff Kerr
23/11/12 – 16:04
The sound these wonderful buses made was my all-time favourite- with the possible exception of the Bristol RE.These were Sheffield’s only semi-automatic Regents and sounded very different to the other Regents in the fleet. 3150/1, as they were numbered after 1968, were the C fleet pair mentioned above. They were, I understand, bought for the 85 to Gainsborough, but by the time I reached Sheffield in 1969 they were used on city services such as the 150/151 to Shiregreen. This pair had overhead luggage racks downstairs! Hebble, who by January 1970 were in absolutely desperate straits vehicle-wise, grabbed them eagerly when the C fleet passed into NBC ownership on 1 Jan 1970.
Phil Drake
23/11/12 – 16:54
I seem to remember that the parcel racks in 1150/1 were of netting rather than having a solid base, quite unusual for a double decker.
Ian Wild
05/12/12 – 07:28
I always found the second B fleet batch slightly superior to the initial one at this time of year. Those 1368-1377 368-377HWE had fan heaters which didn’t stop when the bus did.
On the subject of Sheffields Half cab fog lights, I only ever remember the 31 forward entrance AEC half cabs having twin fog lamps in their service days, all other half cabs would have just a nearside one. It was only when the PD3’s in particular were relegated to the ancillary fleet that the second offside ones appeared. With the exception of the initial Alexander bodied Atlantean 369 all other Sheffield buses received after 1960 would all have twin fog lights A shot of of ex-Sheffield PD3 909 on SCT61 when 23 with Stevensons fleet still only had the nearside one. The pre-service shot of 461 at Crossgates only had the one.
Andrew
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/12/12 – 17:05
To pick up on Phil’s contribution (23/XI/12) 1150-1/3150-1 were purchased for service 85 Sheffield-Retford-Gainsborough but, according to Alan Hinton’s Omnibus Society pamphlet about this route “neither racks nor vehicles were popular . . . and they rarely reached Retford [sic]”. Partial double-decking of the route had started on 25/VIII/58, those through journeys which were double decked (the frequency was hourly between Sheffield-Retford, but only two-hourly between Retford Gainsborough) required a change to a single-decker at Retford. Initially PD2/Roe 1156-61 were allocated, being fitted with high-backed seats and platform doors. Then around 1960 it appears that “some Roe-bodied AEC Regent Vs from the B fleet were tried . . . but like most AECs they were not popular on this route” – why? In 1962 Leyland Atlantean/Weymann 1163-65 were purchased for the service, having high-backed seats and a “special upper-deck [sic] luggage compartment to accommodate . . . fishing baskets” (why on the upper deck? – to minimise smells??). In 1966 A-fleet Leyland Atlantean/Neepsend of the batch 348-60 took over double-deck operations – presumably C-fleet vehicles worked “A” services to balance the mileage. Until 17/III/68 the service was operated by Townhead Street garage and an outstation at the EMMS garage in Retford: on that date Townhead Street garage closed and Greenland Road garage assumed responsibility for workings using the 1962 C-fleet Atlanteans, now renumbered 3163-5. Single-deck operations were, from 1960, entrusted to the Burlingham and Weymann Fanfare bodied Leyland Leopards, but latterly became the preserve of A-fleet AEC/PRV Swifts – some of which had their seating capacity reduced to provide extra luggage accommodation for the role. Alan Hilton’s pamphlet really is a most fascinating history of this route.
Sheffield Corporation 1954 AEC Regent III Weymann H32/26R
I must admit that I have come up with the above information on a bit of a wing and a prayer after searching Google and my regular informative web sites I think I am right. But if I am wrong I will not be upset if you correct me, please leave a comment. I am not sure about a white livery for buses especially in large towns they have a tendency to look a bit dirty “all the time”.
Part of the batch of 36, these were the last exposed radiator buses for Sheffield Corporation and JOC. There were preceded, in 1953/54, by over 50 Leyland PD2s, with near identical bodies, which were the first of hundreds of tram-replacement buses.
Sheffield Corporation 1956 AEC Regent III Weymann Orion L27/28R
Now I know what your thinking you think I have got this completely wrong, this is surely a Regent V you say. No it is definitely a Regent III there was a small number of late Regent IIIs that were built with the wide bonnet front more associated with the Regent V and this is one of them. I also have a shot of another Sheffield Corporation Regent that could be a bit dubious, registration WWB 542 fleet no 742, it is different to above in that it has an odd shaped window on the staircase and no air vent at the front of the roof, I would guess at Roe bodywork myself. I think that it also maybe a Regent III as that registration dates from 1955/6 and I can find no details of it in the Regent V lists on the excellent Bus Lists on the Web website. If you know please leave a comment.
742 was VWJ 542 Regent III 9613S with Roe H33/25R body, new in 1956.
David Harrison
After over 150 exposed radiator Regent IIIs, Sheffield had 41 Roe and 36 Weymann H58R and 9 Weymann L55R Regent IIIs with manual boxes and the new “Regent V” front. This was in 1955/6 and they followed immediately by 40 genuine Regent Vs with Weymann H58R bodies identical to the earlier Weymann/Regent IIIs. The latter arrived in 1957.
David Oldfield
04/05/11 – 07:06
These were the only lowbridge double deckers in the Sheffield fleet post war (and for some considerable time pre war). See Keith Beeden’s comments re Sheffield 1265 for the reason behind this unusual purchase. Four buses (1284-7) survived the rest of the batch by up to four years and made themselves unpopular turning up on a variety of (non lowbridge) services not least being regular performers on the 50 to the posh village of Dore, on the edge of the Peak District. 1284 is pictured in Pond Street Bus Station for a duplicate on the normally single deck service 99 to Chesterfield via the village of Ford which required single deck buses beyond that point.
Ian Wild
05/05/11 – 07:00
It’s amazing how such a fine builder as Weymann could make the Orion look so fine – as it did for almost all Sheffield’s high-bridge variants – but managed to make such a dog’s breakfast of the low-bridges. They had several attempts and failed – the North Western PD2s neither being the same as 1283-91 nor as neighbouring East Midland examples. It’s also true that high-bridge Leylands were generally not so handsome as those on almost any other chassis because of the narrow front profile. I read that, when Leyland closed down the body shop in 1954 that there was a tacet agreement that Leyland body customers would be edged in the direction of MCW (ie MCCW AND Weymann) and this obviously manifested itself in the carry-over from Leyland of a standard 7’6″ front, even on 8’0″ wide bodies (but with the tapering effect). Bizarrely, the best looking and most balanced “low” Orions were on East Midland and Yorkshire Woolen’s Albion Lowlanders – where Alexander made a pig’s ear of it! “First” are still managing to put old rubbish on the (now) 30 to Dore. Is it giving the finger to the unworthy rich – or missing a trick in encouraging onto public transport?
David Oldfield
03/02/12 – 15:27
During the school holidays we use to travel on these buses to the mining area pits (my Mum also worked full time so holidays were spent on whatever route my dad was driving. My Auntie was the conductress).I remember there being 4 bench seats in a row to the nearside & access was lower to the seat height. Cannot remember what happened over the drivers cab, but those front seats must also have been higher than the access route.Downstairs offside was the lowered access route with notices for passengers to “watch your heads” My Dad used to say you can buy the best quality towels from the pit shop at really cheap prices. I think it may have been Orgreave pit. We also used to go on Regents single deckers with the doors & access stairs to the doors & these were the first buses we saw that had a round, chrome heater behind the bulkhead to keep you warm, which we appreciated at 5.30am on cold mornings.
Andy Fisher
28/12/17 – 15:46
Dear David Following your conversation with the Regent III, I am requiring some advice on the Model of my RLH from the Samuel Buses and I am hoping to try and find out if the Regent III types above was the similar bus and I am hoping to change the lower deck to the Regent V front and I am requesting some tips on how to get the job done and what bus to use either the Corgi or the Orion Regent but I do have a quite a few of the buses in the fleet and then I am hoping to do the low height of the bus.
Christopher Norris
29/12/17 – 10:48
It would be good to have a pic of Doncaster CT’s 122 on this site. It was an AEC Regent 3 with a number of interesting features including a stepped boarding platform, those early 50’s deep Roe windows and cranked seating. It also had a Potts Patent air system and I have no idea what that is? 122 has a political history, sold early on with its CVD6 sister to local operators (of which Doncaster had many) on the pretext of being too wide at 8ft to fit the town’s streets (which?), but actually, it seems, not the streets but the DCT bus washer. It is still around in preservation, having been beautifully restored back to DCT glory by the late Tony Peart.
Sheffield Corporation 1953 AEC Regent III Roe H33/25R
Here we have two Sheffield Corporation work horses photographed on a very wet grey day. The Leyland is a Titan PD2/30 built 5 years later than the Regent it had a Weymann H31/28R body registration 4494 WB fleet number 494. It also had a concealed radiator which was nicknamed a “Tin Front” this style of radiator first appeared on Titans when in 1952/3 100 special Titan PD2/12s were built for Midland Red and had a similar style radiator to the B.M.M.O. D7. From 1954 and with a slight modifications the Midland Red look unfortunately became the style of concealed radiator for Titans until 1960 when the “scalloped” bonnet as it was called with horizontal slats came along, thank goodness. I’m afraid a sheet of tin with some slots cut in it does absolutely nothing for me, they even left space for the Midland Red badge to go in at the top which Sheffield made use of for displaying the fleet number. I personally don’t think you can beat the AEC Routemaster for the best looking concealed radiator design, if you disagree or have another suggestion please leave a comment.
A full list of Titan and Regent III codes can be seen here.
Sheffield Corporation 1955 AEC Regent III 9613S Roe H33/25R
Sheffield bought 86 AEC Regent III in 1955/6 incorporating the new look front more usually associated with the Regent V model. The first to arrive were a batch of 32 for the B fleet numbered 1251 – 1282 with handsome Roe bodies. 1265 is shown outside the Roe premises at Crossgates, Leeds prior to delivery. I wonder if this was the first of the batch to be completed hence the official photograph? I always felt that these were a bit heavy looking with the blue radiator surround, I believe they were referred to as ‘bluebottles’. The total batch for the B fleet numbered 41 buses but what were to have been Roe bodied 1283 – 1291 were delivered to the A fleet as 736 – 744 and an equivalent number of the original A fleet order (bodied by Weymann) were fitted with lowbridge bodywork and took the numbers 1283 – 1291 in the B fleet. These were used to double deck the Dinnington services 6 and 19 which operated under a restricted height bridge at South Anston. Roe were quite capable of building lowbridge bodies (see other Roe product photos on this site) and I wonder why Roe didn’t simply supply the last nine as lowbridge vehicles? No doubt there was a reason for it at the time. Although this particular bus was withdrawn in 1969, 1251 and 1254 lasted until 1973 – at 18 years old, a fair age for what was by then a low capacity obsolete (open rear platform) design. All ended up with various Barnsley area scrapmen. A few points to note in the photograph: the difference in shading between the 12 and 65 of the front and side fleet numbers and the legal ownership by the British Transport Commission, also the missing fog lamp and the semaphore trafficator arm in front of the nearside front window.
I would like to help with the Sheffield J.O.C query regarding the 1955 intake of AEC Regent III buses. At the time of the order, SJOC required 41 chassis with 9.6 litre engines and synchromesh gearboxes. An important requirement was for the “New Look” bonnet structure. At the time, the Mark V model featured a revised bonnet design, but only with the 7.75 litre engine. To meet the Sheffield request, AEC agreed to supply 41 Regent III chassis, to incorporate the “New Look” structure. C.H.Roe were to supply 41 bodies to H33/25R layout, to a height of 14ft 2 1/2ins. The modified design featured a lower deck framed in teak and upper deck in light alloy. A problem arose when SJOC wished to increase fares on the category B services.The Yorkshire Transport Authority refused the application and the reason was that there were too many single deck services, some needing duplicate buses. The YTA suggested that more efficiency was needed, suggesting that some low height double deckers should be acquired. To this end Sheffield asked C.H Roe to modify nine of the outstanding contract to be built to low height 55 seaters. Although nine of the 41 chassis had not been delivered ALL the bodies had been built, some placed on trestles to await the chassis delivery. The result was that Weymann were asked to change an order for 45 similar Regent chassis, from H32/26R layout to L27/28R on 9 of the chassis. In consequence, Roe lettered the 9 completed buses to category A finish and the Weymann 9 lettered for the B fleet.
Keith Beeden
30/04/11 – 15:25
Thank you for the explanation Keith. Clear and concise as always.
John Darwent
30/04/11 – 20:50
Thank you Keith for that really interesting explanation about the highbridge/lowbridge body supply swap.
Ian Wild
02/05/11 – 12:59
Why haven’t you heard me pontificating about this picture? I’ve been away! Keith certainly answers the question of why they weren’t Regent Vs. Subsequent D3RV Regent Vs were almost identical to these Regent IIIs. It’s a shame that Roe didn’t build the low heights. The Weymann Regent IIIs and Vs were the nadir of the coach-builders art (stripped back and single skinned) and 1283 – 1291 were by far the ugliest non Utility buses ever operated by STD. Roe would have made a far better – or at least far more attractive – job of it.
David Oldfield
03/05/11 – 08:17
Wonderful looking vehicles these, especially in this Roe version of the Sheffield livery, and even after first repaint, when they acquired a grey roof. Perhaps the nicest sounding buses ever in the fleet, as well. Although not visible in this view, I feel pretty certain it was this batch at least that had a white stick with a small red ball on top, attached to the top of the nearside wing, to aid drivers when pulling into the kerb, considering these ‘new look’ fronts did not afford the same view from the cab that the traditional narrower bonnet and ‘stand alone’ mudguard arrangement did. Could these have been fitted at Queens Road after suggestions from driving staff, perhaps?
Dave Careless
03/05/11 – 16:42
Dave, you are absolutely correct about the markers. I suspect it was a Queens Road affair because I seem to recall a few, but not all, of the Weymann Regent IIIs with markers. You can’t beat AEC/Roe for me, but these combined the musical (pre-war style) manual gearbox with the throaty exhaust. The latter disappeared with the Regent V but there were odd members of both the Regent III and V Weymanns (such as 751 and 792) which had a different gearbox which was “even more musical” – almost like the crash boxes in Guy Arab IV/V and Daimler CCG6.
David Oldfield
04/05/11 – 06:35
Interesting comment David, re-AEC music. I visited Paignton in 1960 when most of the Devon General services were operated by Regent/Weymanns of, I guess, about 1950 vintage. The sound was neither the melodious pre-war type crash gearbox, nor the “wail” of the manual Regent V (I know I’m liable to get lynched for calling it that), though it is some resemblance to both. It was certainly not the classic pre-selector sound either. I never came across it anywhere else, though I guess it must have been a standard transmission option.
Stephen Ford
04/05/11 – 06:37
I don’t remember Roe lowbridge bodies of this particular style being very numerous on AEC Regents, of course West Riding had them aplenty on Guy and Leyland. But if the Sheffield ones had been supplied by Roe, we can have a good impression of how they would have looked from the view of UWT 876 in the United Services posting, perhaps without the platform doors, but very handsome!
Chris Barker
04/05/11 – 06:42
I share your appreciation of the fine standard of Roe elegance coupled to the inspirational sounds of the Regent 111 9613S vehicles.751 and 792 (a D3RV type) may have been fitted with hardened gear wheels, which resulted from the earlier synchromesh problems. This modification did endow a similar whine to the Guy Arab 1V.Incidentally, at least one of the three Regal 1V/Roe single deckers, OWE 12-14 received this modification to emit Guy type sounds. There is one more significant fact to report which relates to the 45 Regent 9613S chassis with Weymann Orion bodies, which were altered to nine to low height buses. Originally, 45 Leyland PD2/20 chassis were ordered with Orion bodies to the new “Tin Front” style. They were for the Walkley-Intake tramway conversion, due in 1956. Previously, the Leyland synchromesh gearbox featured constant mesh for 1st gear and Synchromesh on 2nd,3rd and 4th. After the contract had been signed and sealed, the Contracts engineer C.C.Hall discovered that second gear had constant mesh engagement, only 3rd and 4th having synchromesh. This was disastrous, as the Walkley and Intake routes featured some very steep hills and many of the drivers would be ex tram men. An easy change from 1st to 2nd or 3rd to 2nd was essential. Sheffield offered to pay extra to include an easy change 2nd ratio. Unfortunately, Leyland refused to provide this facility. The outcome was that the PD2/20 order was cancelled and AEC were asked to supply 45 more 9613S chassis, in addition to the 41 already on order. This situation was resolved by good old competition, where an alternative supplier was available!
Keith Beeden
05/05/11 – 06:48
As an AEC man from a boy (!) riding to aforementioned Weymann Regent IIIs and Vs on both the 95 and the 51, it shocked me to read in C C Halls excellent book that Sheffield were in fact Leyland operators who dual sourced from AEC rather than either an AEC operator or a 50/50 operator. As I’ve said before, old age and maturity have also made me a Leyland man, but definitely second to AEC. This Leyland lack of syncro on second was very evident on the PD3s (recently posted) when setting off from rest at the bottom of Meadowhead – especially with a full load. Interesting, though, that 43 self-same PD2/20 were delivered (with Roe bodywork) in 1957 and then 40 PD2/30 in 1957/8 divided equally between Roe and Weymann – the latter being of the type you mentioned in the cancelled order.
David Oldfield
05/05/11 – 06:50
It is interesting to consider different operators views on the ‘new look’ front from within the same county. Sheffield specified Regent III’s with the Regent V type front to give the vehicles a modern appearance at a time when Britain was emerging out of post-WW2 austerity. In contrast Doncaster, Leeds and Huddersfield bought Regent V’s but specified the Regent III style exposed radiator. It seems the view of these three operators was the very reverse of Sheffield’s. These three Yorkshire operators were sticking to tradition and apparently having nowt to do with modernity! On the other hand this being Yorkshire – was the Regent III type radiator cheaper? (Provocative comment from a Lancastrian – couldn’t resist!)
Philip Halstead
05/05/11 – 12:16
Aye, but we’re a rum lot in Sheffield – being on the edge of outer darkness with Derbyshire. Canny wi’ brass but appreciating the finer things in life!?
David Oldfield
06/05/11 – 06:44
Nottingham also went for the old look exposed radiators on its 65 Regent V/Park Royals (209-273) delivered 1955/56.
Stephen Ford
06/05/11 – 07:04
In reply to the two David’s comments on the AEC Regent 111/Mark V with bonnet markers, I can confirm that they were fitted at Queens Road works. Some drivers complained of poor visibility to the nearside when approaching stops or close passing. During the early and mid thirties, AEC fitted this type of marker on Regent and Regal vehicles. This knowledge would be known by the engineering staff, to be produced in house.
Keith Beeden
06/05/11 – 07:07
Leeds took both AEC and Leyland chassis with exposed radiators for ease of maintenance. It took a change of GM to bring in enclosed radiators on both chassis and only 20 Leylands were delivered with this layout. To the very end Leeds AECs had a polished bonnet an anachronism maybe but a sight to set the juices flowing for this (then) teenager. Absolute poetry in motion!
Chris Hough
11/12/11 – 07:01
what about MANSFIELD DISTRICT TRACTION? Nobody hardly ever mentions these buses,also very few coloured photos about.They shared the same depot on Sutton Road Mansfield Notts.
