Southampton Corporation 1968 Leyland Atlantean PDR1/1 East Lancs H45/31F
OCR 149F entered service with Southampton City Transport on 1 July 1968 as fleet number 105, (note – not Southampton Corporation Transport since elevation to City status in 1964. (But posted here under Corporation to keep the Southampton fleet postings under one heading.) This vehicle acted as a “prototype” for the other 19 of the batch, which entered service in September and October of that year. Despite this, the fleet list in the otherwise-excellent history by A K Macfarlane-Watt records her as OCR 149G but as can be seen below was clearly ‘F’ registered.
She is an Atlantean PDR1/1 with East Lancs H76F bodywork. She is seen in Portswood Road, parked outside the depot, on 31 August 1981. This was the final day of ‘conductor’ operation in Southampton (at least until Deregulation) except for the occasional failure in the system when a Fitter would be called upon to drive while an Inspector took the fares. I experienced this several times!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
26/01/14 – 17:33
It was at about this time that Leyland started sorting out the Atlantean’s problems. Between 1968 and 1972, improvements were made which culminated in the introduction of the AN68 in 1972. This is what the Atlantean should have been from the start and it became by far the best first generation rear-engined decker. The Daimler Fleetline was always a good bus and, after take over by LMC, replaced the dreadful disasters known as the PDR1/2 and PDR1/3 Atlanteans as Leyland’s low-height deckers. By offering both the Gardner and the Leyland engines, all bases were covered. Of course the AN68 eventually formed the backbone of both Southampton and Portsmouth fleets – and myriad others too.
David Oldfield
27/01/14 – 08:14
Thanks for this Pete. I’ve been doing some research into the end of crew operation around the UK and the previous information I had obtained (from where, I don’t recall) was that Southampton’s last crew routes were the 7 and 9 from Lordshill to Weston around 1984/5. So whilst that info is quite detailed, it’s substantially different from 31/08/1981. I’ll trust your date with your personal experiences!
Dave Towers
27/01/14 – 09:28
David O and Dave T, thanks for your comments. My first experience of a Daimler Fleetline was in Birmingham, going back to City Centre on the 55 route from Saltley after an interview: 3344. I thought then how much better it seemed to perform than the Atlanteans Ribble were using. The vehicle illustrated was simply “parked” and not taking part in the formal City Tour, with the Guy Arabs and Regent Vs all sporting clusters of balloons. Photos available of them if required! By 1984/5, we were very much into the driver only era, even with the local NBC operator, Hants & Dorset. The Routemasters introduced after Deregulation were withdrawn in January 1989.
Pete Davies
29/06/14 – 17:23
There seems to be some confusion about dates here. 31 August 1981 (a bank holiday) was the last day of operation of rear platform buses in Southampton, and was celebrated with a tour and commemorative tickets. Crew operation did, however, continue, but with Atlanteans, and I would think that 1985 would have been the correct date for the introduction of full OPO. In 1981, I was working at the Civic Centre (city hall) in an administrative capacity, but in 1983 I transferred to the Transport Department, and we still had conductors then – as Dave Towers correctly says, on the 7/9 group of services between Weston and the Lordshill/Aldermoor area. The end of crew operation was accompanied by the introduction of the no change farebox system, which was considered in certain quarters to be an unwise decision in the period before deregulation. Given the time spent discussing this aspect of the change, I would be reasonably sure that the conductors continued until 1985. Deregulation came in October 1986, and Southern Vectis started their competitive Solent Blue Line venture the following spring, with conductors and making great play of the fact that they gave change. SCT could not ignore that, and introduced Routemasters soon after. Later on, the preserved Regent V that had run the ‘last open platform bus’ tour (401) was transferred back to the bus operator from the Museums Department, and re-entered service. Some of us, who had travelled on that last open platform tour, wondered if we had a case for a refund!
Nigel Frampton
30/06/14 – 07:03
Thanks Nigel. I’ll change my spreadsheet back to “c. 1985” and hope that somewhere some more information may come to light!
Dave Towers
30/06/14 – 11:38
Welcome to the forum, Nigel. Do you still live in Shirley? I bow to your “insider” knowledge!
Pete Davies
01/07/14 – 06:49
Thanks for the welcome, Pete. No, not in Shirley any more – but in south west Germany, near to Freiburg!
Nigel Frampton
01/07/14 – 10:54
Be fair, Nigel, Shirley wasn’t THAT bad!
Chris Hebbron
Kevin
Yes, it was most definitely F and all the others were G, even though they were still 0CR with sequential numbers either side of 149. I first saw this “prototype” on display at the Southampton Show and was very excited about the new fleet numbering, although I was wondering what would happen when the numbers caught up to the remaining Guy Arabs 164 and 167 (when they did, of course, these were renumbered 64 and 67 respectively). I seem to remember that one of the next batch of Atlanteans, TTR —H was never delivered because it caught fire and there was forever a gap of one in the Fleet Numbers. Happy days!
Kevin
30/06/17 – 06:39
Kevin – you are quite correct in saying that one of the TTR-H Atlanteans was never delivered (it would have been number 123). To be strictly correct, it was the bodyworks that caught fire, and several other vehicles were destroyed as well. The chassis of 123 was exported to Australia, where (if I recall correctly) it received a single deck body.
Southampton Corporation 1955 Guy Arab UF 6HLW Park Royal B39F
JOW 928 is a Guy Arab UF, dating from 1955. It has a Park Royal body and, in the first view it has been renumbered to 903 for duty with the Council’s Welfare Department. It is in the Southsea rally on 17 June 1984.
This second view shows it restored to its original fleet number, 255, in the yard at Portswood for an open day. 9 July 1988.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
08/05/17 – 08:05
Southampton had twelve of these Guy Arab UF buses, the chassis of which were purchased in 1952. The first six, 244 – 249, were bodied immediately, but the others did not receive bodywork until 1955. The date of 1955 shown in the heading is thus only half correct. It should be 1952/55. Originally, the first five bodies were of B26D dual doorway layout, but this was quickly changed to B36D, which is the form in which the later ones, 250 – 255, first appeared. Nos 244 – 249 were withdrawn in 1963, and the remaining five had their bodies altered to B39F form in 1964, though, strangely, 254 and 255 were withdrawn from service in that same year. 252 went in 1968, but 250/1/3 lasted until 1971. More pictures of these buses may be found on the OBP Southampton gallery.
Roger Cox
08/05/17 – 11:10
An underfloor of real character: uncompromisingly no-nonsense bodywork, a good solid chassis and wonderful sound-effects. My only ride on one of these was not in Southampton but with an independent in Lincolnshire. Is JOW 928 the bus that is now under restoration by the Southampton group? Another question: did any heavy UFs have the five-speed gearbox that was fitted to the LUF?
Ian Thompson
09/05/17 – 07:37
As I understand the position, Ian, the UF and later LUF models all had the same catalogued transmission options, i.e. four or five speed constant mesh or four speed preselector. Whether any UFs actually had the five speeder is another matter of which I am uncertain, but a few did have the preselective box.
Roger Cox
09/05/17 – 17:03
Do we know what the L in LUF stood for?
Chris Hebbron
09/05/17 – 17:33
Light, Chris? At least, that would be my guess.
Pete Davies
09/05/17 – 17:33
And here is one with Green Bus of Rugeley
Tony Martin
17/05/17 – 07:48
Yes, Lightweight Under Floor or the L.U.F. for short
Stuart Emmett
18/05/17 – 07:58
Thx, Pete/Stuart.
Chris Hebbron
21/02/22 – 06:15
Southampton & District Transport Heritage Trust – a charity and company limited by guarantee owns JOW 928 n.255. It is kept securely under cover in Hampshire at some great expense. It will be restored in time but has had several attempts before which have not been completed. We hope that this will be done in the next couple of years.
Southampton Corporation 1954 Guy Arab III 6LW Park Royal H30/26R
LOW 217 is a Guy Arab III with Park Royal H56R body, new in 1954. It is still owned by Southampton City Council and we see it turning from Portswood Road – this section being known locally as Portswood Broadway – into (Old) St Denys Road. It is 30 May 2010 and there is a running day to mark the official (but not actual) closure of Portswood Depot. The actual closure was delayed by about three months because the new depot at Empress Road wasn’t ready.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
21/08/16 – 11:09
These buses looked rather old fashioned for 1954. By then rubber window mounts and ‘new-look’ fronts were well established. Perhaps Southampton valued standardisation more than up to the minute styling as these were the last of a very large batch of early post-war Guys.
Philip Halstead
21/08/16 – 16:17
Yes, Philip, I think you’re right. The next batch to arrive was the PD2 with Midland Red front, then the PD2A and Regent V before the Atlantean. Bill Lewis managed to modernise the livery on the Atlanteans to something like the Manchester style, and I’m not sure why he didn’t deal with the older vehicles as well. Perhaps Nigel Frampton can advise! Bill had other difficulties with his Committee – they were adamant that they would not follow the trend to overall adverts – the best he could achieve for many years was the ‘wrap around’ style and, although other Councils, including our neighbours Bournemouth and Portsmouth had coaches or dual purpose vehicles for private hire work, Bill was not allowed to have them. I have a strong suspicion that the presence of a local coach proprietor on the Committee had more than some influence there! What about a declaration of conflicting interests?
Pete Davies
21/08/16 – 17:08
Arab III/Park Royal might look a bit old fashioned, but elegant at the same time, especially in the standard livery. I think you might agree that neither the PD2 or PD2A could be described as pretty, particularly in the “red look” livery. Wasn’t the livery on the Regent V/East Lancs/Neepsend pretty much the same as the Guys, except for no silver roof? As far as private hire was concerned, I think you are most likely correct & add in a number of rate paying coach operators in the district & there’s no contest!
David Field
22/08/16 – 05:45
Had this Guy Arab for my wedding on September 2011 taking us all from Fareham to Portsmouth and return. Great for me as Provincial (my favourite operator) had many of this type. A proper bus, brilliant.
Arthur Syson
22/08/16 – 05:46
Wasn’t the Arab IV well established by 1954?
Chris Barker
22/08/16 – 09:23
I don’t recall Portsmouth Corporation having any vehicles for private hire work, be they coaches or DP type. It was a rigmarole for bus enthusiasts to get one of their buses for private hire outside the Portmsouth area, little more the Portsea Island, plus Leigh Park, a Portsmouth Council housing estate, where dispensation had been given after it was built. However, some arrangement enabled the open-topped TD4’s to go to the Epsom Derby.
Chris Hebbron
22/08/16 – 10:44
Portsmouth Corporation did operate some dual purpose vehicles in it’s final years. These were the three Leyland National 2s, nos 98-100 (CPO98-100W) with DP40F bodies, and a zig-zag red on white livery. These were delivered in 1980. In 1982, the Corporation added three Dennis Lancets (95-97), two were buses (B35F), and one (95, GTP95X) was DP33F. All three were bodied by Wadham Stringer. Finally, the Corporation bought a “proper” coach, secondhand from a dealer. This was a Leyland Leopard / Duple C57F, numbered 101 (AUS644S). Then, in the new era of Portsmouth City Transport “arm’s length” company from October 1986, they added two more second hand coaches. These were also Leyland Leopards with Plaxton C51F bodies, and came from Bournemouth. They were nos 104-105 (FEL 104-105L). Apparently PCT Ltd also hired two Shamrock & Rambler Leopard/Plaxton coaches in the summer of 1987. Several of these came under Southampton ownership when Southampton Citybus took over Portsmouth Citybus in July 1988. However it seems to be a quite complex arrangement as to who owned or borrowed which ones in this era. Then along came Stagecoach, then Harry Blundred, then First Group . . . all change! Sorry, this is a long way from the Guy Arab III in the original image. As a teenager, I often visited Southampton when these were the main components of the fleet, so the image brings back good memories. Also, as was mentioned above, some ended up with Provincial at Gosport and Fareham, joining that company’s very similar buses. Those purchases seemed a perfect fit, as even the destination screen arrangements were virtually identical – just the alignment in the front panel being the clue if you know what to look for.
Michael Hampton
22/08/16 – 14:01
I much preferred the Guy Arabs that Provincial acquired new, which had a less spartan interior finish than the Southampton vehicles, while the 5LW gave a better looking profile, but, of course, Southampton needed the 6LW for the long steep hills while Gosport and Fareham had few hills and nothing of any note.
David Wragg
23/08/16 – 06:08
Sorry Pete, I’m afraid I don’t know the reason why the Atlantean livery was not extended to the front engined types. I suppose one could speculate that it was a form of “OPO” livery, in a similar manner to the Bristol Omnibus Company in the few years just prior to the introduction of NBC standard liveries in 1972 – but it would be purely speculation. I would also add that there was something of a tradition of specific classes of buses retaining different liveries in SCT. One commentator referred to the silver roofs of the Guy Arabs (double and single deck), the Park Royal bodied Leyland Titans and AEC Regent Vs, and the Nimbuses. As far as I know that feature was included at repaint. Then there were the Swifts and Seddon RUs – Swift number 1 always had a different layout of colours (and, I think, a different shade of cream). I also think that the Seddons had another, richer shade of cream. It would not, of course, comply with modern thinking on corporate images, but I don’t ever recall thinking that the services were operated by anything other than one single operator! On the other hand, one could argue that the various livery layouts had been adapted to suit the respective vehicles. Now that’s something that today’s livery designers could learn!
Nigel Frampton
23/08/16 – 06:13
Well, thank you so much, Michael H, for clarifying the situation on Portsmouth Corporation’s DP buses and coaches. I left Portsmouth in 1976 and was not able to watch the twists and turns of Portsmouth Corporation in its later years and its death throes. I’ve looked on the web and can find no photos of any of the vehicles you mention.
Chris Hebbron
23/08/16 – 06:13
You didn’t mean it this way, David W, but your comment that “Fareham had ‘nothing of any note’ reminds me of an old tourist guide I read many years ago which described Fareham as being “devoid of interest”!
Chris Hebbron
23/08/16 – 06:13
Between 1949 and 1952 (when aged 7 to 10 years) I lived at Alverstoke, where the standard type allocated to the Gosport – Haslar route 11 was the 5LW Guy Arab III with Guy built bodywork on Park Royal frames. In appearance, they were essentially identical to the 6LW Southampton examples, which, to the delight of a visiting small boy, seemed to be operated in huge numbers in that city. Several of these would subsequently become part of the Provincial fleet. Much later, in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I would travel to the city for Institute of Transport meetings at Southampton University, and contrived to catch a Guy for the local part of the journey whenever possible. The Arab III/Park Royal combination is my favourite bus of all time, and I believe that its standard of ride, dependability and operating economics have never been equalled. Geoffrey Hilditch stated that a Guy Arab fleet could regularly offer a 98% standard of reliability, a figure that included engineering spares and buses on overhaul. Nothing else surely could match that. The 1951 Arab IV evolved from the 1950 specification issued by Birmingham City for their new Guys, and, in addition to the repositioned front bulkhead to eliminate the radiator ‘snout’, the updated chassis included features better to meet the requirements for 8ft wide bodywork. The Arab III was offered alongside the Arab IV until late in 1953, and Southampton’s Nos.67-73 batch must have been among the very last deliveries of the type. A picture of No.71 in service may be found on the OBP Southampton gallery. In 1961 Southampton plummeted from the sublime to the ridiculous with its PD2s, the execrable appearance of which led the Corporation to abandon Park Royal after a loyalty of some 33 years.
Roger Cox
23/08/16 – 06:16
Living in Southampton in the post war Guy Arab era, I have to declare a fond predilection for these vehicles. Although the 64-73 batch were Mk III Arabs, they did have a different exhaust system layout to the earlier vehicles. This batch had a larger diameter system with the pipe located behind the offside wheels; all the other Arabs in the fleet had a smaller diameter system with the exhaust outlet in front of the offside wheels. In 1961, Mr Jenkins, the deputy GM always attributed their superior performance on the road to this difference. This batch certainly had more oomph! than their predecessors and coped effortlessly on the hillier routes 4 and 6. Of the ten I always thought No 68 (LOW 214) was the pick of a very good bunch.
Peter Elliott
23/08/16 – 06:44
Slightly off subject, but I was told a story that the original So’ton livery was blue/white as per the Regent V BOW 507C in the photo (but without the P&O sponsorship!). This was changed to red/cream when So’ton gained a Labour council sometime between the wars, and there was no way they were going to have blue buses. Can anyone confirm this?
Also the first batch of Regent V’s might well qualify in the Ugly Bus page see photo of 318 AOW attached. I think the Arab’s that went to Provincial were mainly from the earlier batches, which indeed had things like exposed bulbs for the interior lights, & a sliding window between the lower saloon and the cab, which allowed the conductor and driver to chat . Did you know that the good old “Jelly Mould” interior lights fitted to later models is still in production today . Sorry about the poor picture quality. The photos were taken at So’ton Centenary in 1979.
David Field
23/08/16 – 10:17
David F, I can’t comment on the reason for changing from blue to red livery, but the blue is certainly the pre-war livery. The Regent painted thus for the Centenary is one of the views in our editor’s file for consideration, along with a note on the reason for the P&O adverts. Roger, you describe the Park Royal bodies on the PD2 as ‘excrable’. I’m sorry, but I didn’t think they were as pretty as that!
Pete Davies
23/08/16 – 14:01
Here’s a coloured photo of an early 1930’s Thornycorft Daring in Southampton Blue with blue roof. At some period, the blue roof was dropped. The corporation favoured this local bus builder for a period and, guess what, they had Park Royal bodies!
Chris Hebbron
24/08/16 – 05:54
Sorry, Chris. Didn’t mean to offend Fareham. I was really writing about the lack of steep hills. My favourite Guy Arabs were the Southdown Mk.IVs of around 1956, with Park Royal bodies.
David Wragg
24/08/16 – 05:56
If your story is true, Davis F, it just shows how petty politicians can be. I recall that, when Big Ben was thoroughly renovated some years ago, it was found the the clock faces were originally blue and it was suggested that, in the interest of historical accuracy, the faces regain their original colour. Labour objected vehemently and it was not to be. How childish!
Chris Hebbron
24/08/16 – 05:57
Taking up the point made by Peter E about the livelier performance of the later Guy Arabs, Gardner introduced the ‘K’ type LW range of engines in 1950, which, for the 6LW, raised the output from 102 to 112 bhp. That should have made a difference, but I would have expected all the Arabs from No.184 onwards to have exhibited this improved performance. Perhaps that revised exhaust system did provide a magic ingredient.
Roger Cox
24/08/16 – 10:17
It’s all right, David W; I was amused, not upset!
Chris Hebbron
25/08/16 – 15:25
Chris Hebbron writes of difficulties in finding photos of Portsmouth Corporation’s coaches and duple purpose vehicles.
Try and locate the following books:- Portsmouth Citybus and its Predecessors PSV Circle 1997. Fares Please Eric Watts 1987 Milestone Publications. Portsmouth Corporation Transport Bob Rowe 2012 Venture Publications.
Andy Hemming
26/08/16 – 05:07
Had I lived in Southampton at the time, I should have been mortified to see the trams replaced by mere buses, but SCT couldn’t have chosen a worthier vehicle for replacement. I’ve read the postings with particular interest. I agree with both Roger Cox and David Wragg that both the Southampton Arab IIIs and the Southdown Arab IVs were very handsome vehicles. Bearing in mind the wonderful reliability of the IIIs, can anyone shed light on SCT’s odd decision to move away from Guys? The Arab IV would have been the ideal vehicle for the next order after the III finally went out of production. What a pity none of the Thornycrofts ever turned up languishing in a barn somewhere. Few enough single-deck Thornycrofts survive, let alone a decker.
Ian Thompson
26/08/16 – 05:08
Thank you Andy for reference to the publications with images of the Portsmouth vehicles I mentioned. There is also a model of the Leyland National 2 in the stripey livery available, their ref 14702. An internet search for this will bring up an image of this, and it is a good representation of the actual thing.
Michael Hampton
26/08/16 – 14:12
To answer Ian’s question, I seem to recall that in the 1959/60 period Guy virtually withdrew the Arab from the market as it was putting all its thrust on the Wulfrunian. I know committed Arab user Lancashire United bought Leyland PD3’s and Daimler CSG’s in this period and perhaps Southampton moved to Leyland for the same reason. The Wulfrunian as we now all know did not quite work out (I am being diplomatic – more like an unmitigated disaster) and Guy went back to offering the Arab around 1962. By that time Guy were in financial difficulties which may have deterred further sales.
Philip Halstead
28/08/16 – 06:29
Sorry, Chris H, but that Big Ben clock face story is an urban myth. It is thought that Pugin’s original colour was green for the dials with royal blue for numbers and hands, but research continues. The Southampton livery changed from blue/white to red/cream after WW2 when the entire tram and bus fleet was in a parlous state at the end of hostilities. The official reason for the livery change was the alleged instability of the blue paint – it was a piece of received wisdom in the bus industry that blue was a “difficult” colour, though a number of operators successfully serving the country north of Watford clearly took a different view. Southampton’s choice of the Daring chassis in the 1930s arose from a natural desire to support local industry. The Thornycroft shipyard was at Woolston, having relocated from Chiswick in 1904, but all the road going vehicles were manufactured at Basingstoke where the company had opened a purpose built factory in 1898. Southampton did take some open top double deck and some single deck examples of the J type in 1919-1921 , but then favoured AEC, Leyland and Guy. The most successful Thornycroft passenger model from the later 1920s was the BC Forward which could also be supplied as a double decker. Southampton took four double deck examples of the two axle BC and became the only significant customer for the HC six wheeler, though these designs were outdated in comparison with the three AEC Regents bought by the Corporation at about the same time. The first Thornycroft passenger model of recognisably modern concept was the XC double decker of 1931, five of which were supplied to Eastern National, though two demonstrators were also made. From this was derived the single deck Cygnet and double deck Daring, distinguished by a new style of radiator shell with a central dividing strip. Southampton took four Daring DD chassis with Park Royal H28/26R bodies in 1933, and these were powered by the 7.76 litre AC6 ohv petrol engine. In the following year another Daring arrived in the fleet, making a total of just five, but this had the first production example of Thornycroft’s 7.88 litre DC6 diesel engine, an indirect injection design yielding 98 bhp at 2100 rpm. A Park Royal H26/24R body was fitted, the different seating from the earlier Darings possibly arising from a repositioned bulkhead to accommodate the diesel engine. (The 6LW powered Darings of SHMD had similar modest seating capacities.) Peter Gould’s list shows this bus as having the AC6 petrol engine, and it may well have been initially so fitted, but the bus ran in service with the diesel. The success of this unit may be gauged by the fact that Southampton’s next bus orders went to Guy and Gardner. All Southampton’s five Darings were subsequently re-engined with 5LWs. OBP has an post on these buses (Southampton Corporation – Thornycroft Daring – OW 3434 – 9), and the picture submitted above by Chris H is a “hand coloured” version of a pre delivery photo of the same bus:- www.bobmockford.co.uk/museum/ Meanwhile, in the trying trading conditions of the mid 1930s – serious losses were incurred between 1932 and 1936 – differences in opinion arose at the Thornycroft board level. Tom Thornycroft, an advocate of the company’s involvement in the bus and coach market, resigned from the firm. The limited sales of Darings and Cygnets convinced the board that there was no future for the company in the passenger chassis market, and the company withdrew all bespoke bus/coach models from 1936. In post war Southampton, the change in supplier from Guy to Leyland and AEC followed the retirement of Manager Percival Baker in 1954. As so often occurred elsewhere in municipal bus management, his successor clearly took a different view on bus procurement matters. The next double deck orders were not placed until 1960/61, by which time Guy was again offering the Arab. (The above information on Thornycroft bus chassis has been derived from several sources, but particularly from Alan Townsin’s book on the manufacturer.)
Roger Cox
31/08/16 – 06:43
David Field’s comments about the interior lights on Provincial’s ex SCT Arabs is interesting. My memory of the post war Arabs in the Southampton fleet is that they had glass covers / shades on all interior cabin lights and that the only pre 1950 Arabs with a sliding window behind the driver’s were those vehicles used for driving training (Fleet nos 114, 129 and 150 ) none of which were sold to Provincial.
Peter Elliott
31/08/16 – 06:43
With regard to the Darings, Nottingham purchased 4 second hand from Southampton in 1947, but according to a book I possess (including a corroborating photograph) these were Southampton 6, 60, 61 and 61 (OW9932 and AOW263-5) supposedly supplied originally in 1936 and 1937 respectively. (Unfortunately I am not at home at the moment, so I cannot say which of the 4 appears in the photo). They were bought to cover post-war shortages, but apparently found little favour, and were withdrawn within a year – largely, no doubt, because they were non-standard.
Stephen Ford
31/08/16 – 09:23
Yes, you’re right, Stephen, and so is Chris H. I completely overlooked the four later deliveries. Southampton took those Darings after trying the early Guy Arab, which itself virtually disappeared from the market after 1936. Perhaps Thornycroft, having lost interest in the heavy psv market, was particularly tardy in completing the order, for those Darings – no.6 was delivered in 1936 and nos.60/1/2 a year later – were the very last of their kind. The model was officially withdrawn in 1936, though a few more single deck Cygnets were made for export. Southampton seems to have been reviewing its double deck needs at that time, as, mixed up amongst the Thornycrofts and Guys was a single Leyland TD4, surely a more advanced vehicle than the Wolverhampton and Basingstoke offerings at that time. This fact must have finally registered because the TD4 and then the TD5 became the standard Southampton double decker until the advent of the wartime Arabs.
Roger Cox
31/08/16 – 16:08
Living in Burgess Road in the 1950’s, most of the Arabs I travelled in were on the relatively easy 15 & 15A routes, so I wonder if these were actually Arab II in their last lives. This would explain things like the exposed bulb interior lights (set in a conical mount as I recall). I can also recall how dim these lights were when the buses were stopped at Swaythling, with engines either idling or possibly even stopped. When it was time to move off, the interior became a veritable blaze of light as the generator kicked in. I don’t think batteries were high on the Council’s spending priorities! There was no need to go to Southsea funfair for a roller coaster ride, all you had to do was get on an Arab LUF single decker that was running late and go down Lances Hill…far scarier than the roller coaster & cheaper too.
David field
01/09/16 – 06:37
Incidentally, Southampton Corp’n were so enamoured with Thornycroft vehicles, the Borough Engineer’s Dep’t, bought dustcarts with Daring-type rads – see //tinyurl.com/hb6h68a And, as another aside, I saw a Dennis ‘dustcart’ yesterday, an Elite6 model. I’d assumed that Dennis had given up making all but Alex-Dennis buses. Seems not.
Chris Hebbron
01/09/16 – 06:38
David, in MacFarlane-Watt’s book, he lists the Arab II members of the fleet, in the DTR series, and says they were delivered in 1944 to 1946. Most were 5LW but DTR907 onwards were 6LW. The first of the Arab III 6LW fleet is reported as being FCR194, delivered in 1948.
Pete Davies
01/09/16 – 10:08
One of my earliest posts was an ex – Southampton Thornycroft Daring in service in London in 1949. Here is the link The last SHMD Daring survived with them until 1959! So those few buyers had their moneysworth out of them.It is a shame that none survived. Thx, Andy H, for the headsup on books with photos of coach/dual-purpose Pompey vehicles.
Chris Hebbron
01/09/16 – 10:09
Chris, the Dennis Eagle dustcart business in Warwick is an entirely separate manufacturing concern from ADL in Guildford. When Dennis fell into the clutches of Mayflower, that ill fated outfit rebranded the Guildford business with the juvenile name “TransBus”. It sold off the Dennis Eagle municipal vehicle side in 1999, and that, together with the “Dennis” name, is now owned by the Spanish firm Ros Roca, which still has a manufacturing base in Warwick. The Guildford factory also made the well known fire appliances until 2007 when the reality of meeting spasmodic and small orders to differing specifications made production uneconomic. The Sabre and Rapier fire engines are regarded as the best machines of their type ever made, but nowadays appliances are built on much cheaper modified standard lorry chassis. Fire engine bodywork is still constructed in Guildford on all makes of chassis by John Dennis Coachbuilders, formed in 1985 by a grandson of one of the family company founders. An interesting point – in the Econic, Mercedes have copied the Dennis dustcart chassis concept whereby the engine is set back to give a low, unobstructed cab. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and Dennis Eagle generally supply the dustcart body anyway.
Roger Cox
02/09/16 – 06:43
Thanks for the information Roger. I – and I’m sure many other people – had simply thought that a modern Dennis was a Dennis, whether it be a ‘dustcart’ or a bus. It just shows how the modern vehicle markets have evolved. I suppose it is not dis-similar to Volvo, where the car business was sold to Ford some years ago, yet the Volvo name continued to appear on both the cars and the commercial vehicles. (Following it’s later sale by Ford, Volvo Cars is I believe now owned by a Chinese company). Although it is somewhat sad to learn that Dennis Eagle is now under foreign ownership, at least – as is the case with DAF Trucks in Leyland – production remains in the UK, and continues to provide much-needed jobs in the engineering sector.
Brendan Smith
02/09/16 – 06:43
What a complex world we live in nowadays, Roger, but your clearly explained post makes the position clear. Underneath the huge chromed DENNIS name was a circular chrome disc with a complex pattern not decipherable at a distance. At least one member of the iconic Dennis family is still in business. This story is slightly less complex than that of Dunlop, which can be read in Wikipedia, if anyone has an hour to spare!!
Chris Hebbron
02/09/16 – 06:43
Peter Davies’ reference to A K MacFarlane Watt’s book on Southampton City Transport (1977) both helps and hinders on two recently posted topics. First, pages 50 and 51 clearly show the interior lighting of the post war Arabs and presumably also extant on the lower decks of 164 and 167 and on both decks of 71. His fleet listing of the Mk III does contain a major inconsistency; in that the chassis numbers carried by 104,106-108, 111-112 and 114 were a continuation of the Mk II series.The PSV Circle Fleet History (1993) has got this matter ‘spot-on’. A key difference could be found in the cab layout:- the Mark II’s had the instruments display mounted in a wooden frame attached to the body below the driver’s windscreen; the Mk IIIs had the display mounted below the steering wheel contained in a black bakelite housing. The comments about dim lights rings a very familiar bell! When I worked at SCT in the mid 60’s, drivers were instructed never to leave a full ‘set on’ when the engine was off! Most of the time however the 12volt system worked pretty well and considerable attention was paid by the maintenance staff to keep vehicles’ batteries in good order.
Peter Elliott
02/09/16 – 06:44
Thanks for that info, Peter. I can remember the DTR regd Arabs, I’m sure on the 15A route. So these are probably what I’m thinking about. Would I be right in thinking they had fabricated rear & possibly front domes? So would have been utility bodies?
David Field
05/09/16 – 06:22
All bar one of the DTR utilities had been withdrawn by 1952 bar one which was eventually rebuilt into a tree lopper. I cannot recall therefore any detail relating to their bodywork.
Peter Elliott
16/12/16 – 15:09
I can vaguely remember that the colour scheme of the Southampton Corporation buses was changed around about the same time that Southampton was awarded City Status. I remember that the older buses that ran when I was a child had the indicator blinds that read TOWN CENTRE whilst the newer buses had the blinds that read CITY CENTRE. So I think that the colour scheme was changed when Southampton gained city status. My elderly parents both who came from Southampton advised me that back in the 1930s whilst the buses were blue and cream, the trams were red and cream. I do remember being taken on the old number 5 route on a bus that had a silver roof circa 1964. It would have the Blind indicator set for WOOLSTON (floating bridge) via Butts Road
C Phillips
17/12/16 – 13:32
C Phillips (16/12/16 – 15:09) refers to a change of colour scheme around the time Southampton gained city status. Southampton was granted city status in 1964, but the change from the blue livery to red for the buses took place in 1945. Ashley Macfarlane-Watt’s book confirms Roger’s explanation above, i.e. that the blue livery did not wear well. To be fair, it would have been thoroughly tested in the previous 6 years, but I can also recall an article in “Buses” in the 1970s referring to problems of durability with blue paint, and hence the relative rarity of blue liveries. The first 12 Leyland PD2s (301-12) were delivered in a red livery with just 2 narrow cream bands, but this did nothing to enhance the overall beauty of the PD2/Park Royal combination, so the livery was changed to include larger areas of cream fairly soon after those buses were delivered. As I understand it, from Mr Macfarlane-Watt’s book and contemporary photos, it was only those first Titans that ever carried that livery, and the subsequent Park Royal-bodied AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2As all carried the livery with more cream from new. The main roof panels (excepting the front and rear dome sections) were silver, but some buses ran with all cream roofs for a time. These vehicles retained their silver roofs throughout the rest of their careers with SCT. When the East Lancs-bodied Regent Vs commenced delivery a year or so later, these carried all cream roofs, and had a deeper cream band below the upper deck windows. There were, therefore, minor changes to the livery for some vehicles “around” the time that Southampton gained city status, but Mr Phillips’ recollection of a bus with a silver roof in 1964 would almost certainly be correct – at that stage, most of the fleet had them.
Nigel Frampton
18/12/16 – 07:13
Going further back in this thread, Chris Hebbron (22/08/16 – 09:23) says, with respect to private hires outside the Portsmouth city area: “However, some arrangement enabled the open-topped TD4’s to go to the Epsom Derby.” This was probably allowed because the buses were not hired as a means of transport, but as mobile grandstands. Southampton used to hire their open top Arab for the same purpose, but they didn’t carry any passengers to or from the Derby. I believe some operators did carry passengers on open toppers going to the Derby, but I would think those were for shorter distances. The prospect of 60 or 70 miles at a maximum of 35 m.p.h. on the top deck of an open topper would probably not appeal to most visitors to the Derby!
Nigel Frampton
18/12/16 – 13:26
Your comment about long journeys by bus, Nigel, reminds me of the London Transport RT’s which used to come to Southsea on Summer garage outings up to the early 1970’s. They would park on Southsea Common by Clarence Pier and the families would disgorge for the day. They would invariably display the home garage on the blind display, along with PRIVATE in the main box. I always recall a green one displaying Watford Garage, which, according to a quick look at G Maps, was nigh on 90 miles away, but there were no motorways/dual carriageways then, apart from the Kingston and Milford by-passes and a short straight stretch north of Horndean. A break at Hindhead and something like 40mph max would have taken about 4 hours. I’m assuming that crates of beer, with concomitant extra stops, were not in the equation!
Chris Hebbron
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/12/16 – 06:23
I am interested to find out what year Southampton Corporation did away with the rear destination blinds on their rear platform buses. When I lived in Southampton back in the 60’s, all of the buses as I recall had a destination blinds at the front and at the rear along with the route number. I recall on a trip back to Southampton finding that all of the buses had had their rear indicator blind windows painted over and only the route number was being shown.
Southampton Corporation 1969 AEC 2MP2R Swift East Lancs B47D
Here are an off side front and a near side rear view of Southampton Corporation TCR 293H fleet number 7. This AEC 2MP2R Swift was built in 1969 with East Lancs B47D bodywork. She is seen in Pound Tree Road between duties. I captured her on film in April 1976. There is something odd about the name of this road, which might be resolved if the UK ever goes fully “European”. Does it refer to Kilogram or Euro? After all, there are people who think money grows on trees!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
13/01/13 – 10:27
Please refer to the “Gallery” entry on the King Alfred Running Day for comparative views of the Strachan body on similar chassis.
Pete Davies
13/01/13 – 10:28
Not sure I like ‘peak’ at the front, but otherwise, it’s a nice design in a simple livery. I recall that Seddon bodywork had similar peaks. Sign of the time, I suppose. I think it’s fair to say that East Lancs bodies were not common along or near the South Coast. They are not too familiar to me as a Southerner. Maybe the road should be re-named Poundstretcher Road, in recognition of the country’s plight!
Chris Hebbron
13/01/13 – 15:07
No, Chris, EL bodies don’t seem to have had much of a following in the South. I think Eastbourne was the only other Municipal, plus Aldershot & District and Southdown. Southampton bought them because, as one Manager told me, they were “cheap and cheerful”!
Pete Davies
13/01/13 – 15:08
I have a picture of another Southampton Swift/Strachan, MTR 424F, which I hope to submit in a Southampton gallery at some time. As for the rarity of East Lancs bodywork “south of Watford”, you’re right, Chris. Aldershot & District and Eastbourne and Luton Corporations had them. To the east, Southend had some, and Lowestoft had a couple of PD2s in 1965. Otherwise, nothing, unless, of course, anyone else knows differently.
It occurs to me that Gideon Osborne would be looking to set up huge plantations of Pound Trees accessed by a thoroughfare called Recovery Road.
Roger Cox
13/01/13 – 17:19
Roger: just the 8 Reliances and 26 Lolines at Reading, of course. Not southern, but geographically south of Watford, there was also also Cardiff with a sizeable number; the Merthyr fleet doesn’t quite qualify as ‘south of Watford’! The Pound of Pound Tree is surely the place to which illegally parked, or similarly recalcitrant, buses would be towed; in order to suitably screen any double-deckers from public view, it would have been surrounded by trees, the traditional corrugated iron fence being insufficiently tall.
Alan Murray-Rust
13/01/13 – 17:19
East Lancs bodies south of Watford must also include Southdown’s rebodied TD4 and TD5’s carried out between 1946 and 1950 of which there were a total of fifty nine plus of course their final batch of PD2/12’s Nos789-812 considered by many to be the best of the various body builders used on that chassis. In later years East Lancs became much more popular in the region being bought by Brighton, Portsmouth, Southampton and Plymouth municipalities all outside of the sites timescale I know.
Diesel Dave
14/01/13 – 07:12
I must say, I like Alan’s theory of how the road got its name and Roger’s idea of a plantation of this sort of tree. It may be of interest that the bit of public open space to the nearside of the bus forms a gyratory layout, and is known – among bus crews at least – as WINO ISLAND. Guess why! Thank you, Dave, for your thoughts on other South Coast operators of the EL (or Neepsend!) bodywork. Almost all of Southampton’s Atlanteans had the product and almost all are too new for these pages. I think the same applies to the Brightons and Portsmouths. The Southampton ones with other bodywork came from Plymouth and were well and truly clapped out when they arrived. I look forward to Roger’s forthcoming “Southampton Gallery”!
Pete Davies
14/01/13 – 07:13
I can’t imagine how I came to forget the Southdown examples of East Lancs, Dave. I saw them many times when I popped down to Brighton from Croydon. Thanks for reminding me. I agree that the Welsh examples should be included in our survey, Alan. Cardiff is certainly south of Watford, and I doubt that the people of Merthyr would consider themselves to be “northerners” or even “midlanders”.
Roger Cox
14/01/13 – 15:34
Southdown also had 40 East Lancs bodied Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 saloons. The first 10 had rear entrances and the rest had centre entrances. All were later converted to front entrance OMO.
Roy Nicholson
16/06/13 – 06:55
To stray from the bus theme but to stay with the ‘Old ‘ bit, a Pound was something every village had back to Norman times, before land was enclosed by greedy landowners. Animals were grazed around the village but strays were rounded up and put in the Pound, released when a fine was paid, The connection with life today is obvious.
Roger Ingle
29/06/14 – 17:27
I cannot add anything to the debate about the name of Pound Tree Road, except to point out that for most of its length the road is between two parks, so there are plenty of trees. If there’s any corrugated iron in the area, it’s on the bus shelters. As far as East Lancs bodywork is concerned, it might have been cheap – certainly the Venture history of East Lancs reports that their tender for a batch of Mancunians was very competitive. However, it was nevertheless considered to be of good quality, being both substantially built and well finished. The most notable weakness was a tendency to change minor details on every batch of vehicles! I worked for the Transport Department during part of the 1980s, and the engineers were happy with the EL products. SCT did later acquire about a dozen Park Royal/Roe bodied Atlanteans from Plymouth, but as Pete Davies says above, they were past their best, but the interiors were also very utilitarian. Maybe that was down to the operator, but Park Royal seemed to have been on to a cost reduction ‘tick’ since the Leyland PD2s and AEC Regents of the very early 1960s. I must confess that I quite liked the look of these four Swifts, as the EL single deck styling was subtly different to the contemporary BET design, which had several imitators. Of course. it wasn’t as good as ECW bodied RE, but an interesting contrast. I think the peak at the front, that Chris Hebbron refers to, is a result of the rather high set Swift chassis. A rather neater effect could be achieved on a Bristol RE chassis, with the accompanying benefit of a better mechanical setup!
Southampton Corporation 1968 AEC Swift MP2R Strachans B47D
I thought a southern flavour was in order with another Southampton photo this one in service in early 1968 when the bus was quite new I am not sure of the exact location in the city. No 2 MTR 420F was an AEC Swift MP2R with a Strachans B47D body delivered in February 1968 one of a batch of five which were some 9-10 months after No 1 JOW 499E with an identical body, the ways to tell them apart was that No 1 had a red roof and a cream skirt rather than that shown on No 2 it also had a route number box above the first near/side window. These were followed by four more Swifts in 1970 this time with East Lancs who by this time were confirmed as Southampton’s body builder of choice.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
05/06/14 – 07:38
It’s on the junction of Portsmouth Road and Victoria Road in Woolston, Dave. She’s come from Weston Estate and is going to City Centre via Bitterne and Northam. The 8 and the 16 ran in opposite directions and the bus is turning right here because ahead of her is the bridge carrying the Southampton to Portsmouth railway line. Occasionally, drivers tried taking double deckers under the bridge, and failed to do anything other than cause the vehicle’s immediate withdrawal, hence the introduction of the compulsory right turn here. The road was lowered when the Itchen Bridge was built to replace the Floating Bridge in 1977. Several “Corporation” services ended at either side of the Itchen, and Hants & Dorset had a couple which terminated in Woolston, along with a small depot.
Pete Davies
05/06/14 – 07:39
By the time I saw this bus it was in a rather sorry state – parked at the back of the Blackpool Corporation depot in April 1980 being used as a source of spares for their own fleet of Swifts.
Mike Morton
05/06/14 – 17:41
It’s nice to see this style of bodywork in a decent colour scheme. London Transport and Wolverhampton’s versions were both dreadful!
Neville Mercer
05/06/14 – 17:41
I recall seeing these vehicles on my occasional forays from Portsmouth to So’ton. They had attractive bodies, in my opinion, aided by the livery. I moved from the area in 1976, the same year that saw the demise of Strachans. Your comment, Mike, confirms my thoughts that they did not have long lives, like many Swifts. No idea of bodywork quality: do you DD?
Chris Hebbron
06/06/14 – 07:39
The six Strachans bodied Swifts lasted a maximum of eleven years in Southampton, but a couple of them went after a mere six years. The subsequent four Swifts with East Lancs bodies also stayed in the fleet for just eleven years, so I suspect that the modest lives of these buses was due more to the shortcomings of the Swift chassis than to inadequacies with the bodywork. In fact, the Strachans body on rear engined two door single deck chassis gained quite a reasonable reputation owing to the employment of underframing that reduced the flexing movement. The Strachans examples were rather less prone to roof structure failure in the region of the centre doorway than the efforts of some other manufacturers, as London Transport, for example, discovered to its cost.
Roger Cox
06/06/14 – 08:46
One peculiarity of the Swifts in Southampton – it may have applied to the Arab UF and Nimbus fleet as well but I never got to travel on any of them, and I suspect not – was a red stripe across the roof, to match the location of the step behind the centre door. Smoking downstairs had been prohibited for several years, but was still allowed upstairs. On the Swifts, the step and stripe designated where the ‘upstairs’ was!
Pete Davies
07/06/14 – 08:17
Roof? No, sorry! I meant ceiling!
Pete Davies
07/06/14 – 08:17
I had always wondered how cigarette smoke determined where to stop blowing. It was commonplace for Smokers to be requested to occupy the rear of the vehicle on single deck buses. But how to keep the smoke from wafting into the forward section? Southampton clearly had the answer – paint a read line across the ceiling, the smoke won’t dare go beyond there. Obvious, or what !!
Petras409
07/06/14 – 08:18
Thx, Roger, your thoughts about the chassis rather than the body being the problem matches mine.
Chris Hebbron
07/06/14 – 10:00
Slightly off topic but there used to be an airline that had smokers on one side of the aircraft, non smokers on the other and this was on narrow bodied aircraft. The joke was that this must be Aer Lingus. The truth was it was Lufthansa. Just how German efficiency prevented the smoke crossing the aisle on a B737 for instance has never been revealed.
Southampton Corporation 1963 AEC Regent V 2D3RA East Lancs H37/29R
369 FCR is a Regent V of the 2D3RA variety, with East Lancs H66R bodywork from 1963, in the fleet of Southampton City Transport, fleet number 349. She’s seen in Vincent’s Walk on a sunny lunchtime in January 1976, between duties on the 15 to Swaythling via Bassett Green. The blinds have been set on the way into City Centre, but the bus needs to turn round.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
26/06/15 – 05:19
To my mind one of best looking of the MkV. but my own favourite is Nottingham City Transport MK V. followed by NCT Renowns. They were nice to drive and nowhere in Nottm. could they not go.
J. A. Bagshaw
29/03/20 – 08:42
This vehicle arrived in advance (October) of the rest of the batch for familiarization and publicity purposes. I remember that many of the drivers considered them somewhat sluggish on the road compared to the Park Royal bodied lighter predecessors (313-322).
Southampton Corporation 1963 AEC Regent V 2D3RA East Lancs H37/29R
373 FCR is a Regent V, 2D3RA, from the Southampton City Transport fleet. Unlike some, which had Neepsend bodywork, she is listed as having East Lancs bodywork, of the H66R configuration. She was new in 1963. She’s seen in Winchester, during a King Alfred Running Day on 1 January 2009, on the roundabout at the eastern end of The Broadway…
…and, yes, she is heeling over somewhat!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
26/05/14 – 09:40
Even allowing for some over enthusiastic cornering, it looks as if some of the leaves in the rear spring have failed, a matter that should receive urgent attention.
Roger Cox
26/05/14 – 11:28
This really is an action photo! The upstairs passengers might well have wondered if she’d ever recover!
Chris Hebbron
06/01/17 – 11:11
I purchased 373 FCR in 2012 and indeed a new set of springs was needed! Progressive restoration work got her back to Class 6 test standard in 2015 and she ran in revenue earning service for Stagecoach at Goodwood Races that year
Andrew Dyer
06/01/17 – 14:21
On seeing the dramatic picture I had a feeling that springs or tyres must be to blame – the Regent V, especially in 8’0″ form, was a very stable vehicle indeed normally. Strangely, we had a batch of fifteen “eight footer” lightweights at Leeds City Transport. The last one in service, well after the others had gone, looked almost as alarming when stationary at stops – I openly admit to have been petrified of 909 1909 NW and was very glad to see the back of it.
Chris Youhill
06/01/17 – 14:22
Andrew, I saw the entry attributed to “Andrew Dyer” and wondered if you were the one about whom I had heard via Simon Bell, then I read your comment. Welcome aboard, young sir. Hold very tight, please!
Southampton Corporation 1965 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Neepsend H37/29R
This AEC Regent V with East Lancs (Neepsend) H66R bodywork was new in 1965 to Southampton City Transport with fleet number 371. Some of this delivery (358 to 370) were to have been 358 HCR to 370 HCR, but were caught in the change to year suffix numbers. Indeed, some of them even failed to have their booked BTR …B marks, and gained BOW …C plates instead. BOW 507C isn’t one of those so marked in the fleet history by A K MacFarlane-Watt. In this view, on the soggy afternoon of 1st February, 1979, she has been repainted in the 1930’s livery and renumbered 100 for the operator’s Centenary, and is being positioned outside Civic Centre for the Committee inspection. My then boss, the City Architect, said he had commented to the Transport Manager that it looked very nice, but asked “Why the P&O advert?”. He said that Bill Lewis replied, “They paid for the repaint.”
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
13/10/15 – 06:43
At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preference. I’m not a lover of tin fronts, most tend to look a bit harsh, and some are positively brutal in appearance, but the AEC seems to buck that trend. A few round edges and a bit of bright trim makes all the difference. Mind you, when a bit of neglect sets in where badges go astray, or trim is painted over, or bits are removed and not replaced, well that’s another matter entirely.
Ronnie Hoye
13/10/15 – 08:58
Thank you, Ronnie. I suppose that – having grown up with the Regents of Morecambe & Heysham corporation – the arrival of the Regent V was something of a shock. I wonder if this is why some places didn’t go for this ‘new look’ and stayed with the exposed radiator on their Regent V fleets.
Pete Davies
14/10/15 – 16:10
I always think that there was something Macho about the preference for exposed radiators- a touch Mack or Peterbilt, or deferring to the traditional Atkinson. Doncaster only ever had fibre-front CVG’s- Leyland and AEC deckers were exposed radiator until the half cab was bustled away.
Joe
15/10/15 – 07:21
Thanks, Joe. A “real” Scammell, perhaps, or the Thornycroft Mighty Antar, with the snout, rather than those designer products from their latter years . . .
Southampton Corporation 1967 AEC Regent V 3D2RA Neepsend H40/30R
KOW 909F was in the last batch of AEC Regents delivered to Southampton, in 1967. It is of the 3D2RA variety and the body was built by Neepsend, to the H70R formation. It was decorated in the early 1980s as being the Transport Department’s last rear entry bus, but then came Deregulation and it was returned to service. In this view, it is in Highfield Lane, on a special running day to mark the closure of Portswood Depot. It’s 30 May 2010.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
27/02/17 – 07:54
When all the perfect ingredients come together you get the perfect end result as in this case, having the best chassis of it’s type with elegant well balanced bodywork finished with a simple and tasteful livery, to me proves the point. All that is missing, understandably are the sound effects of the AV691 engine and the Monocontrol gearbox the thought of which brings me over all nostalgic. AAAh happy days.
Diesel Dave
27/02/17 – 16:000
Glad you liked it, Dave!
Pete Davies
27/02/17 – 16:02
I could not agree more with Diesel Dave, with one exception. Who came up with the idea of those front indicators above the mirror line. I can see the logic of not reflecting in the mirrors, but those particular light units were the same as Duple fitted on later model Super Vegas (I think) – one on the side & one on the lower front corner. They were not very efficient on the coach, & next to useless on the Regent V on a sunny day (we used to get those in Southampton, don’t know about now though!)
David Field
27/02/17 – 16:46
Those indicators worked on my Dinky VAL!
Joe
28/02/17 – 16:37
The reason I asked was that, Southampton being quite conservative (small c) in it’s view to change (Late model Arab III’s, etc), it seemed an odd thing to do when the rest of the fleet (Arab III’s, Arab UF, PD2, PD2A, Regent V) were fitted with a different type of side indicator, mounted at waist height, just behind the cab door. These lights were quite ornate in shape, and had been used since the first buses were fitted with flashers (on the front only as I recall). I think they might have been made by Rubbolite, they were the same as fitted to Dodge 500 series trucks. I can imagine the Stores having boxes of these in stock, looking up at the new buses & saying “there goes the budget”!! I think the next change must have been to the teardrop shape Lucas flashers on the Atlanteans.
David Field
01/03/17 – 06:35
Comparing this with a photo of an earlier example, I notice that an emergency window has appeared immediately aft of the cab. It could be that the relocation of the flasher from that position had something to do with that. Alternatively it might just have been a a belief that the flashers would be more noticeable on the front of the bus than at the side, possibly following some sort of incident. And of course nobody would have known that they were going to be useless on a sunny day when they ordered them from the catalogue!
Peter Williamson
01/03/17 – 06:36
The indicators were one of two versions offered by East Lancs/Neepsend at the time. The other type was fitted at the same height but on short arms protruding from the body with round orange plastic covers so the indicator could be seen from both front and rear. An exception were Reading’s East Lancs bodied Lolines which had the traditional side indicators fitted on the very front of the between decks panels.
Phil Blinkhorn
02/03/17 – 07:11
The comments about the type and positioning of the front indicators reminds me that Eastbourne Corporation’s two batches of PD2’s had different types, the 1966 batch No’s 71-80 BJK 671-680D had two a teardrop shaped fitted at lower deck window level behind the cab door and a round flat lense mounted on a shaped housing low on the front wing, the latter looking something of an afterthought. The second batch No’s 81-85 DHC 781-785E had the same type of high mounted type as the Southampton Regents I don’t recall any problems with them.
Diesel Dave
21/12/17 – 11:40
I remember the Ramsbottom East Lancs PD3s had that arrangement of flashing indicators.
